[uf-discuss] Need a figure markup
greg at fotonotes.net
Sun Oct 30 05:52:04 PST 2005
I said I was going to be provocative in my reply...
It may be a different topic, but not unrelated. A friend of mine last
night expressed the idea simpler than I did while we discussed why
there might be advantage in having new HTML tags for images and other
multimedia content. Her observation was, "So the browser can exhibit
I'm wondering out loud if the particular semantic replacements you
are proposing are fundamental enough to be part of HTML. (It makes
lots of sense to come up with a MF solution in the meantime. It
seemed an opportunity to introduce this other idea.). I would suggest
that the MF be focused not strictly on alignment, but on *naming*
accurately the semantic element in question, like "screenshot", or
P.S. FWIW, Mosiac made a huge splash simply by including an image-
viewer *inline* with text-viewer. Flock, in a sense, is including
certain collaborative tools *inline* with browsing (which I love
about it). Including inline image intelligence, such as EXIF as Scott
Reynan mentioned, seems to me to be in the same powerful tradition.
On Oct 29, 2005, at 2:52 PM, Chris Messina wrote:
> Greg, certainly interesting comments and things I'd not really
> considered when asking about a "figure" MF. Let me focus my request in
> order to simplify the use cases. The topic you broached is a good one
> worth investigating but might be a separate thread from this one.
> What I'm particularly looking for is a simple classing system (or a
> generic class!) that theme designers can add to all their templates
> and style a certain way, in effect creating a semantic replacement for
> those three alignment classes I cited.
> There are two use cases that I'm focusing on at first (which are
> really variants of the same thing): in blog posts where you want an
> illustrative photo (see
> for example). And in other cases like on the NYTimes or CNET when they
> have screenshots, tables and so on that complement the local content
> (see http://news.com.com/Legal+P2P+opens+for+business/
> for multiple examples). In a sense you might even use the form
> convention for labels (<label for="related-element-id">) to apply a
> "figure" to a portion of text... But I'm just brainstorming.
> Anyway, does that clarify my needs? The suggestions have been quite
> helpful so far, so I'm wondering if this further description might
> help narrow the discussion.
> On 10/29/05, Greg Elin <greg at fotonotes.net> wrote:
>> I want to be a bit provocative in my reply regarding positioning of
>> photos, etc.
>> The core problem is not styling, but the scant treatment of
>> multimedia in HTML itself. A core problem it is time to fix,
>> especially on the verge of SVG.
>> Whereas HTML offers a number of tags for presenting text, HTML offers
>> but a single tag for handling an image (<img>) and a two tags for
>> multimedia objects that differ little (<object> <embed>). Whereas
>> HTML offers tools for making distinctions between paragraphs, line
>> breaks, bullet points, and sections of documents, HTML offers nothing
>> to distinguish between a thumbnail and full resolution image. HTML
>> gives something as sophisticated as footnote and caption for tables,
>> but fails to include the understanding/manipulating of a caption of
>> an image, or an author or copyrights of an image. Overall, I would
>> say tables get a bit better treatment in HTML than images or
>> multimedia, but still not as much as text and document.
>> At this point in time, the industry has a much better handle on the
>> conventions surrounding the inline inclusion of images, audio,
>> animation, video's, advertising, etc., in side an electronic document
>> -- or better put as part of the delivered markup source. Image maps
>> and the alt parameter let us add links and a pinch of information to
>> an image, but woefully inadequate compared to what we do and are
>> trying to do at this point in time. Up/Down, Next, Previous are
>> pretty standard conventions when navigating image collections. Other
>> aspects of digital imagery is on the tip of our mainstream
>> consciousness even if we are still groping for household names,
>> concepts like: who, where, when, device, resolution, altered, pixels,
>> What should that little thumbnail that accompanies almost every entry
>> on news.google.com be called? What is the right term for a person's
>> icon next to their forum post or in their IM.
>> I wonder if this is really just a question of better alignment, or a
>> need to think about how images (and multimedia and (tabular) data)
>> attaches, like footnotes, to our accumulating experience of how link-
>> able electronic content works.
>> Greg Elin
>> On Oct 28, 2005, at 8:33 PM, Chris Messina wrote:
>>> Over coffee this morning, Ryan, Tantek and I discussed the need for
>>> generalized markup for figures like photos, tabular data, graphs and
>>> so on in blog posts.
>>> In particular, the way that images are typically rendered in a blog
>>> post by default leaves something to be desired (floating right with
>>> some margin helps tremendously but requires that styling to be
>>> inline or via theme/stylesheet).
>>> The WordPress theme Kubrick uses the classes "alignright",
>>> "aligncenter" and "alignleft" to handle these things, but those
>>> classes are hardly semantic or generalizable. What we need is a
>>> way to
>>> encapsulate any kind of figure and then use other microformats like
>>> hCard for citations or credit, Fotonotes and so on.
>>> Anyway, I thought I would throw this out there and see what the
>>> CW is.
>>> hFigure might be something to think about...
>>> Other ideas/comments/proposals?
>>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>>> microformats-discuss at microformats.org
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