[uf-discuss] Re: [video_vertigo] Re: [videoblogging] Media RSS what?
Kevin Marks
kmarks at technorati.com
Tue Dec 5 02:39:15 PST 2006
On Dec 4, 2006, at 9:16 PM, Mike Meiser wrote:
> On 12/4/06, Mike Hudack <mike at blip.tv> wrote:
>> Mrss-thumbnail would work for me. Do we want to tie this so
>> explicitly to
>> MediaRSS though? Maybe just media-thumbnail?
>
> Makes sense to me.
>
> I was thinking about the whole schema
tying to media RSS doesn't seem strong
>
> <span class="mrss">
> <img src="http://acmevlog.com/thumbnail.gif" id="thumbnail">
class, not id (id's need to be unique per page)
> <a href="urltovideo" class="type-flash">flash version</a>
> </span>
There is an existing HTML way to express the type of a linked file,
using MIME types
<a href="urltovideo.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash">flash
version</a>
see
http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates-
brainstorming#Strawman_6_.28lists_.2B_explicit_alternator_.2B_using_exis
ting_HTML_idiom.29
>
> The point is we need to make it as flat and simple as possible.
>
> <img src="http://acmevlog.com/thumbnail.gif" id="media-thumbnail">
> <a href="urltovideo.swf" class="media-filetype-flash">flash version</a>
> <a href="urltovideo.mov" class="media-filetype-quicktime">flash
> version</a>
>
> Simple enough?
It's not clear that the files are alternatives - see the discussion at
http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates-brainstorming
<ol class="alternates">
<img src="http://acmevlog.com/thumbnail.gif" class="thumbnail">
<li><a href="urltovideo.swf" rel="enclosure alternate"
type="application/x-shockwave-flash">Flash version</a></li>
<li><a href="urltovideo.mov" rel="enclosure alternate"
type="video/quicktime">QuickTime version</a></li>
</ol>
> Media is the namespace. Shouldn't be any conflicts there.
Namespaces are an antipattern. Lets find a term that is expressive and
converge it.
http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful
>
> Should be fairly extenisble.
>
> And as Andreas pointed out you can specify alternative class info.
>
> I.E. <a href="url" class="media-filetype-quicktime cool-links
> media-enclosure">cool styles link</a>
>
> Where cool-links might be a CSS style, and media-enclosure and
> media-filetype might be attributes of our media spec.
>
> All we're talking about right now is "media-thumbnail" but just
> keeping an eye out looking forward.
I think 'thumbnail' alone is OK (can you think of it being confused
with markup for false nails or something?)
Looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes there isn't an
existing classname that fits (you could argue for class="photo summary"
perhaps, but I think that is less accurate).
>
> Simple enough? Or still to convoluted?
>
> I know services like blip can and will pick up on this stuff real
> quick once we publish a spec, but it's got to be simple enough for
> everday vloggers too.
>
> The end goal is better marked up code in video and audio blog posts
> everywhere dealing with media. Would also be great for images, pdf
> and other media too in the future.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info for previous discussions.
It seems like a revival of interest here could help us move on to
converging schemas and proposing names.
> I think the problem this points to is that the magic happens in the
> blog post, not in the RSS. By embedding the metadata in the RSS with
> mediaRSS we've cut most vloggers and services like blip who interact
> by cross posting to blogs off from properly identifying the elements
> of their blog post.
>
> Feedburner's been picking videos out and enclosing them using the
> rel="enclosure" standard. And technoratti and others have been
> picking out tags using the rel="tag" standard, but it's time to
> develop a more robust schema to put the more power back into the blog
> posting input box.
>
> And finally, I like that this schema can be flat, like tags
> themselves. Allowing multiple atributes to be attributed in the
> "class" space. I think people may well get it.
>
> Let's just define ourselves a simple schema or language then, shall we?
>
> This is maybe something could be something that could really catch on
> among bloggers and podcasters in the coming years to give them more
> control.
>
> It also leaves plenty of room for additional complimentary schema as
> well wheras standards like rel="tag" and rel="nofollow" cannot be used
> in conjunction with one another.
Yes they can, multiple rel's are legal HTML; rel="tag nofollow" is a
little nonsensical (the link is a tag for the page, but don't index
it?) but see above for more coherent examples.
>
> Peace,
>
> -Mike
> mefeedia.com
> mmeiser.com/blog
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: videoblogging at yahoogroups.com <videoblogging at yahoogroups.com>
>> To: video_vertigo at yahoogroups.com <video_vertigo at yahoogroups.com>
>> Cc: Kevin Marks <kmarks at technorati.com>; Eric Lunt
>> <eric at feedburner.com>;
>> mefeedia-core at yahoogroups.com <mefeedia-core at yahoogroups.com>;
>> videoblogging at yahoogroups.com <videoblogging at yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Mon Dec 04 20:06:33 2006
>> Subject: Re: [video_vertigo] Re: [videoblogging] Media RSS what?
>>
>> Yeah,
>>
>> I like as andreas points out using the class attibute to declare a
>> thumbnail. Because class is an atribute unlike name that is standard
>> across
>> all manner of elements (images, links ans such) and it is very
>> extensible
>> allowing the specification of multiple atributes and nearly infinite
>> namespaces.
>>
>> I.E. <img src="http://yourvlog.com/thumbnail.gif"
>> class="mrss-thumbnail">
>>
>>
>> This is very similar to the technorati tags microformat for
>> specifying tags
>> on blog posts.
>>
>> I.E. <a href="http://mefeedia.com/tags/tagword" rel="tag">tagword</a>
>>
>>
>> The only real difference is we're using class and to avoid conflicts
>> with
>> CSS we're using a namespace, "mrss" in addition to "thumbnails"
>>
>>
>> That's a pretty good start, but simpler suggestions are very welcome.
>>
>> It's important that not only automated tools and services like
>> blip.tv,
>> moveabletype, blogger.com or wordpress be able to add this markup to
>> a blog
>> post, but also that it become as simple a language as possible so
>> everyday
>> ordinary people can easily learn and use the "mrss" markup language
>> the way
>> they've learned to adopt technoratti tags.
>>
>> BTW, should this be called the "mrss" microformat, or does
>> microformats.orghave their own name space?
>>
>> We are replicating some of the functionalities of Yahoo's mrss (aka.
>> media
>> RSS) so perhaps it's best to make some attempt to correlate what
>> we're doing
>> with that.
>>
>> -Mike
>> mefeedia.com
>> mmeiser.com/blog
>>
>> On 12/4/06, Lisa Rein <lisa at dabble.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi gang,
>> >
>> > We'll implement anything that's XHTML compliant.
>> >
>> > With that in mind, I vote for the "title" attribute of the "img"
>> > element, since "alt" is generally used for titles.
>> >
>> > There's a "name" attribute too, which is already in use for
>> scripting.
>> > But perhaps it's *already* being used to say things like "thumbnail"
>> > for scripting anyway, in which case it would work fine.
>> >
>> > http://www.zvon.org/xxl/xhtmlReference/Standard/struct/
>> > objects.html#edef-IMG
>> >
>> > http://www.zvon.org/xxl/xhtmlReference/Standard/struct/
>> > global.html#adef-title
>> >
>> > <img src="http://image.com/image.jpg" title="thumbnail" />
>> >
>> > thanks!
>> >
>> > lisa
>> >
>> > p.s. how do i get back on the list? :-)
>> >
>> > On Dec 3, 2006, at 6:25 PM, Mike Meiser wrote:
>> >
>> > > First off, I think whatever email client you're using is marking
>> > > everything as *****SPAM***** in the subject line. Very
>> detrimental to
>> > > conversation. :)
>> > >
>> > > Response below.
>> > >
>> > > On 12/3/06, Mike Hudack <mike at blip.tv> wrote:
>> > > > We currently use rel="enclosure" in cross-posts, but we don't
>> and
>> > > can't
>> > > > use rel="thumbnail" because (afaik) images in XHTML don't have
>> a rel
>> > > > attribute. I'd be very hesitant to use something like
>> > > class="thumbnail"
>> > > > because of potentially conflicting CSS on remote sites (we
>> prefix
>> > > class
>> > > > names in cross-posts with a namespace like "blip_" to avoid
>> > > conflicts).
>> > > > I'm not sure what the proper approach to attaching semantically
>> > > > important information to images is, but that's all the more
>> reason
>> > > why
>> > > > this conversation is more important for the
>> microformats-discuss
>> > > list
>> > > > than the videoblogging list.
>> > >
>> > > Where's andreas of solitude.dk when you need him? :)
>> > >
>> > > Overall, yeah, I agree.
>> > >
>> > > But I don't think I'm on this microstandards discussion list for
>> some
>> > > reason. Must have been some oversite on my part. You got a url or
>> > > were you talking video vertigo?
>> > >
>> > > > The only way that a standard for additional metadata will be
>> > > adopted is
>> > > > if FeedBurner is on board. As I said in my previous e-mail,
>> I've
>> > > > discussed this with them and they're gung-ho for the idea but
>> don't
>> > > have
>> > > > room in their roadmap right now. At blip we're ready to go
>> with it,
>> > > > though. We'll add whatever microformats we have to so that the
>> > > > blip->cross-post->FeedBurner->MediaRSS workflow works best.
>> > >
>> > > Well, I think if just mefeedia and blip adopt it'll be mutually
>> > > beneficial to us both immediately making it worthwhile. Peter is
>> out
>> > > of town at the moment, but this is at the very top of our
>> priority
>> > > list. Those damn thumbnails are sort of important to people and
>> we
>> > > can't generate them all.
>> > >
>> > > Remember, if it's in the blog post, even if Feedburner doesn't
>> pick it
>> > > up immediately and translate it to mediaRSS it'll get through to
>> the
>> > > RSS anyway and anyone including mefeedia, democracy, dabble or
>> anyone
>> > > who chooses to identify and use it can.
>> > >
>> > > Right now we're talking about going back in to identify all the
>> videos
>> > > coming from blip and their thumbnails and then cross referencing
>> that
>> > > with videos we're picking up from feedburner feeds and using the
>> > > thumbnails there. It's be much easier for everyone if those
>> thumbnails
>> > > (and other meta info from blip) were contained right in those
>> > > feeburner RSS feeds, either with mediaRSS as they get the
>> chance, or
>> > > with microstandards until then.
>> > >
>> > > This is not just about thumbnails of course, that's just at the
>> > > forefront. We're talking about ways to pass around geographic
>> data on
>> > > individual posts, and having ways to continually extend and add
>> new
>> > > semantic data. Data that blip and others are collecting, data
>> that
>> > > gets lost in the cross posting.
>> > >
>> > > The trick is to allow people to specify as much metadata, or
>> semantic
>> > > data in the post as possible as simple as possible. This is
>> something
>> > > everyone can benefit from.
>> > >
>> > > The problem is as it turns out with mediaRSS is most people don't
>> > > write their own mediaRSS feeds. They need simple microformats to
>> > > specify semantically key meta info right in the blog post.
>> > >
>> > > rel=tag is a great example of this.
>> > >
>> > > We need a way to identify thumbnails next.
>> > >
>> > > Then to start looking at other metainfo that's missing.
>> > >
>> > > > We're more than happy to do support this in code before
>> FeedBurner
>> > > > does... so if FB agrees to support a microstandards standard at
>> > > some point
>> > > > in the future we'll add support to it in our code immediately.
>> > >
>> > > Rock on. That's what I'm talking about.
>> > >
>> > > Just got to figure out if we can't specify rel=thumbnail on image
>> > > source what else we can do.
>> > >
>> > > We could use the "alt" space. It's usually used for text
>> describing
>> > > the image, but alt=thumbnail might work.
>> > >
>> > > Keep in mind while blip is going to be handling all this stuff
>> > > automatically we need to keep it very simple to keep it
>> accessible to
>> > > everyday people whom very well may be hand coding it.
>> > >
>> > > So... if we can keep it rel=thumbnail that would be best.
>> > >
>> > > How else are people specifying microstandards? Within div tags?
>> > >
>> > > <div rel=thumbnail><img src="http://..."></div>
>> > >
>> > > What about <span>?
>> > >
>> > > I must admit I'm so out of touch. :P
>> > >
>> > > What strikes me as a more technical question is how to
>> semantically
>> > > specify alternate video formats like Flash in the source. As far
>> as I
>> > > know there's no way to extend rel=enclosure.
>> > >
>> > > The only think I can think of is to specify urls in duplicate.
>> For
>> > > example specifying one url for the generic rel="enclosure",
>> specifying
>> > > it again with rel="quicktime-enclosure", and another time with
>> > > rel="flash-enclosure".
>> > >
>> > > That seems very complex though. There's got to be a simpler way.
>> > >
>> > > > If I had my druthers, Kevin Marks from Technorati, Lisa Rein
>> from
>> > > Dabble
>> > > > and Eric Lunt from FeedBurner would be part of this
>> conversation
>> > > and we
>> > > > could settle on a solution very quickly. So I've gone ahead
>> and CC'd
>> > > > all of them (and also CC'd Video Vertigo, which most of them
>> are
>> > > on).
>> > >
>> > > Sure, this should be pretty cut and dry. It's very simple and
>> yet very
>> > > useful stuff.
>> > >
>> > > -Mike
>> > > mefeedia.com
>> > > mmeiser.com/blog
>> > >
>> > > > Yours,
>> > > >
>> > > > Mike
>> > > > blip.tv
>> > > >
>> > > > groups-yahoo-com at mmeiser.com wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Good question jay,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Does anyone know if Moveabletype, blogger, or Wordpress
>> support
>> > > > > mediaRSS? Has anyone created a plugin perhaps for MT or
>> Wordpress?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I've realized one of the primary issues with the mediaRSS
>> spec is
>> > > that
>> > > > > when you're righting a post there's no quick markup to
>> specify
>> > > > > metadata IN the post. Specifically for example I was going to
>> > > propose
>> > > > > a series of Microstandards like "rel=thumbnail" so people
>> could
>> > > > > semanticly specify metadata in their post.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > For example when you specify the image to represent your
>> video in
>> > > the
>> > > > > page you'd specify it like this.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > <img src="http://acme.com/yourthumbnail.gif
>> > > > > <http://acme.com/yourthumbnail.gif>" rel="thumbnail">
>> > > > >
>> > > > > As some may have noticed one of the biggest issues we have
>> with
>> > > > > mefeedia is generating tens of thousands of email a day. One
>> of
>> > > the
>> > > > > things I've realized is that MOST people are specifying a
>> > > > > representative thumbnail in their post, they're just not
>> > > specified in
>> > > > > the mediaRSS.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I think we're going to adopt this rel=thumbnail standard
>> pretty
>> > > quick
>> > > > > on mefeedia.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > But if we can also just get a few providers on board like
>> > > feedburner,
>> > > > > blip.tv, dabble and a few others we could creat much
>> prettier and
>> > > more
>> > > > > usefull feeds really quick.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A couple examples.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 1) if feedburner jumps on board identifying thumbnails based
>> on
>> > > the
>> > > > > rel=thumbnail standard they can also specify those
>> thumbnails in
>> > > > > mediaRSS and aggregatory tools like democracy, itunes,
>> mefeedia,
>> > > > > fireant or whomever recognizes mediaRSS will immediately
>> start
>> > > > > displaying the thumbnails you specify in your blog instead of
>> > > randomly
>> > > > > pulling their own.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 2) This is particularly an interesting issue with people
>> hosting
>> > > > > their videos on blip. Blip does allow you to specify a
>> thumbnail
>> > > for
>> > > > > each video, and they DO put it in your blip feed. However,
>> 99% of
>> > > all
>> > > > > people using blip don't use blip's feed, they cross post from
>> > > blip to
>> > > > > their video blog where such meta information as the
>> thumbnail is
>> > > not
>> > > > > semantically specified. By semantically specified I mean the
>> > > image is
>> > > > > just genrically specified in the page and the aggregator
>> can't
>> > > assume
>> > > > > to know what it is.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The point is as a result all the blip feeds look great on
>> > > mefeedia,
>> > > > > but all people's primary feeds have no thumbnails specified.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If blip specified the thumbnails using the "rel=thumbnail"
>> > > standard
>> > > > > when crossposting to people's vlogs that information would
>> make it
>> > > > > into the RSS feed where it could be picked up by any
>> aggregator.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The bottom line is this... more semantic data = a prettier
>> and
>> > > more
>> > > > > useful vlogosphere for everyone.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So... who's with me? Josh K? Mike H., Justin, and the
>> Blippers?
>> > > Lisa
>> > > > > Rien, Mary Hodder and the dabblers? Do we have someone
>> > > representing
>> > > > > feedburner here?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On top of this I'd like to take a look at what other
>> information
>> > > is
>> > > > > getting specified in blog posts, such as that that blip is
>> > > collecting,
>> > > > > that's not making it into the mediaRSS and why not.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Again, 99% of vloggers specify a thumbnail in their blog
>> post, but
>> > > > > these thumbnails aren't making it into the mediaRSS because
>> > > there's no
>> > > > > way to semantically specify it in the blog post.
>> Rel=thumbnail is
>> > > the
>> > > > > simplest way i can think of to accomplish this.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Jay, you said you recently took a look at mediaRSS. What
>> sort of
>> > > > > metadata are you talking about, what metadata do you want to
>> > > specify?
>> > > > > Can you give a few examples of what your clients might find
>> > > > > particularly interesting?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'm afraid that other than developing this and other
>> > > microstandards
>> > > > > that can be specified right in the blog post, rich meta
>> > > information
>> > > > > will continue to get missed untill the major blogging
>> platforms
>> > > like
>> > > > > Blogger, Wordpress, and Moveable type support mediaRSS by
>> default.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Oh, and you should also note that Yahoo video search will
>> pick up
>> > > > > these thumnails too if we can get feedburner to support this
>> > > proposed
>> > > > > RelThumbnail standard.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Are there any other major search engines or services I'm
>> > > forgetting
>> > > > > about that aggregate mediaRSS for search and such?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -Mike
>> > > > > mefeedia.com
>> > > > > mmeiser.com/blog
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 12/3/06, Jay dedman <jay.dedman at gmail.com
>> > > > > <mailto:jay.dedman%40gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > > > > > > Here's the MRSS spec:
>> > > > > > > <http://search.yahoo.com/mrss
>> <http://search.yahoo.com/mrss>>
>> > > > > > > It was developed by Yahoo! with a lot of collaboration
>> from a
>> > > > > > > community of contributors, including many folks on this
>> list.
>> > > > > > > FeedBurner supports MRSS in a pretty limited way --
>> really
>> > > just as an
>> > > > > > > addition to the enclosure element. Blip.tv includes a
>> lot of
>> > > MRSS
>> > > > > > > metadata in their feeds, including support for media
>> > > thumbnails and
>> > > > > > > alternate versions of each video (FLV, Quicktime, etc.).
>> > > > > > > Is there something in particular you want to do with
>> MRSS?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > yep....i saw the spec, but am having a hard time fitting my
>> > > brain
>> > > > > around it.
>> > > > > > I am working with a group of Community TV stations that are
>> > > starting
>> > > > > > to upload and trade TV programs for playback around the
>> country.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > They want to attach a lot of metadata into their
>> posts....so
>> > > they are
>> > > > > > asking if Media RSS could help them. Questions I have
>> is....how
>> > > do
>> > > > > > they create feeds that attach all this info into their
>> feed?
>> > > > > > Do they need to make their feeds by hand?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > right now, they are just uploading to their own
>> servers...and
>> > > using
>> > > > > > Drupla to create their feeds.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Jay
>> > >
>> > http://www.dabble.com
>> > http://www.onlisareinsradar.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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