Language Maps [was RE: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML]
Steven Livingstone
connect at stevenR2.com
Mon May 1 08:11:32 PDT 2006
hmm, ok - i can see why the mix and match may not work in the case where you override with a new xml:lang attribute in a child element :(
Option 2 then :)
----
Steven Livingstone
http://stevenR2.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Steven Livingstone" <connect at stevenR2.com>
Reply-To: connect at stevenR2.com,Microformats Discuss <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:53:10 -0500
>
>Thanks Brian - that's useful info for me leanring this stuff. It sounds like xml:lang in its normal context which is fine.
>
>I guess my point would maybe be that if you are going to bother using xml:lang="fr" to write some information in French, then i'd have thought you could easily write the class names and profiles in French too.
>
>So, on a web page, if i write my Country in English and Spanish on my own web site, i'd write :
>
>Country : Scotland
>Pais : Escocia
>
>[ rather than Country : Escocia ].
>
>Perhaps there are some use cases that could be pointed at that would make having yet a further technique for specifing class name/profile languages really worth the hassle ( i know there will be cases, i'm talking relative effort ).
>
>If another technique were required, then each class name under a given context could be normalized to a single definition (under the namespace for that particular microformat to allow the same class names to be used many times). So if someone writes a classname in French, it gets normalized to the English (or Esperanto, or Klingon - select you preferred PC language) equivalent which is the normalized classname used if some equivalence test was required. This would solve the problem for both humans and machines.
>
>steven
>http://stevenR2.com
>
>----
>Steven Livingstone
>http://stevenR2.com
>
>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: brian suda <brian.suda at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: Microformats Discuss <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
>Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:38:45 -0500
>
>>xml:lang is already used within each microformat. For those who don't
>>know, you can mix-and-match language attributes within the same
>>document. So it is possible to have something like:
>>
>><div class="vcard" xml:lang="en">
>> <span class="fn">Brian Suda</span>
>> <org class="org" xml:lang="fr">Foo Bar</org>
>></div>
>>
>>The resulting vCard looks something like:
>>
>>VCARD:BEGIN
>>FN;LANG=en:Brian Suda
>>N;LANG=en:;Suda;Brian;;;
>>ORG;LANG=fr:Foo Bar
>>VCARD:END
>>
>>Citations will do this as well, have a book written in one language,
>>publisher be in another country, and the author a third.
>>
>>By adding the xml:lang you can specific the language of the text, NOT
>>the language of the class names or profile.
>>
>>-brian
>>
>>
>>Steven Livingstone wrote:
>>> Why not just specify or xml:lang attribute on the Microformat?
>>>
>>> e.g.
>>>
>>> <a rel="reference" href="http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile" xml:lang="fr">
>>> Carte de langue pour hCarte à hCard</a>
>>>
>>> <class = "profile" xml:lang="fr">
>>> <dl>
>>> <dt id='nom-et-prenoms' ref='fn'>nom-et-prenoms</dt>
>>> <dd>Le nom et prenoms</dd>
>>> <dt id='donne-le-nom' ref='given-name'>donne-le-nom</dt>
>>> <dd>Donne le nom</dd>
>>> <dt id='nom-de-famille' ref='family-name'>nom-de-famille</dt>
>>> <dd>Nom de famille</dd>
>>> </dl>
>>> </class>
>>>
>>> That way an interpreter could just check the value of this and map the class name.
>>>
>>> This would allow me to easily have an English, Spanish and French hCard on the same page.
>>>
>>> ----
>>> Steven Livingstone
>>> http://stevenR2.com
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>>> From: "Joe Andrieu" <joe at andrieu.net>
>>> Reply-To: Microformats Discuss <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
>>> Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 01:33:51 -0700
>>>
>>>
>>>>> From: Tantek Çelik Sunday, April 30, 2006 6:56 PM
>>>>> To: microformats-discuss
>>>>> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/30/06 6:20 PM, "Karl Dubost" <karl at w3.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And your page has class names in English when you are using another
>>>>>> language. -1
>>>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>> Thus with microformats, you may use both the standard microformat class
>>>>> names, AND class names in your own non-English language if you wish:
>>>>>
>>>>> <span class="family-name soyad">Çelik</span>
>>>>>
>>>>> ("soyad" is Turkish for family-name)
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas with POX markup standards, you are relegated to only using the
>>>>> element names from the spec.
>>>>>
>>>>> <family-name>Çelik</family-name>
>>>>>
>>>> The current microformat model is certainly better than POX, but I think it
>>>> still leaves something to be desired. This approach still requires that
>>>> everyone uses the Microformats Approved(r) Anglo-biased namespace, even if
>>>> they get to add their own term to the class.
>>>>
>>>> To the extent we can enable other peoples and languages to "own"
>>>> Microformats and participate as first class citizens, I suggest it would be
>>>> a Good Thing(tm). Couldn't we allow a mapping of any microformat into any
>>>> language? This seems to be a simple solution for both humans and computers.
>>>>
>>>> If we utilize the microformat attribute I mentioned in my previous email (or
>>>> simply standardize on a profile mechanism), we could see something like
>>>> this:
>>>>
>>>> <a class="hcarte"
>>>> microformat="http://www.microformats.org.fr/hcarte-profile">
>>>>
>>>> And in the hcarte-profile, we see something like this (again, apologies for
>>>> any technical errors):
>>>>
>>>> <a rel="reference" href="http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile">
>>>> Carte de langue pour hCarte à hCard</a>
>>>>
>>>> <class = "profile">
>>>> <dl>
>>>> <dt id='nom-et-prenoms' ref='fn'>nom-et-prenoms</dt>
>>>> <dd>Le nom et prenoms</dd>
>>>> <dt id='donne-le-nom' ref='given-name'>donne-le-nom</dt>
>>>> <dd>Donne le nom</dd>
>>>> <dt id='nom-de-famille' ref='family-name'>nom-de-famille</dt>
>>>> <dd>Nom de famille</dd>
>>>> </dl>
>>>> </class>
>>>>
>>>> My apologies for my French, but hopefully it gets the idea across.
>>>> Initially I wasn't sure if the hCard reference terms should be
>>>> human-readable, rather than attributes of the dictionary entry. If we are
>>>> going with the culturally sensitive approach, then I think the profile
>>>> should be 100% human readable /in the presenting language/.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, if a French author/developer discovers the above mentioned
>>>> microformat, they may simply use it the same way the first user did:
>>>>
>>>> <a class=hcarte
>>>> microformat=http://www.frenchmicroformats.org/hcarte-profile>
>>>>
>>>> All without any requirement of seeing or using English except the one
>>>> reference to hCard in the title of the profile. (And technically that could
>>>> be cut out). Plus, the elements of the microformat are now semantically
>>>> relevant to the human author. So, the French soccer-dad who wants to put his
>>>> daughter's soccer schedule online doesn't have to keep mentally translating
>>>> between the English hcard class names and his native language. This makes
>>>> Microformats much easier to use, especially in cultures and countries where
>>>> English is not quite the standardized "second tongue."
>>>>
>>>> Once any microformat profile has been mapped to a language, it is easily
>>>> language-friendly to anyone using that language, assuming they can find the
>>>> mapping (another argument for a central registry).
>>>>
>>>> I expect some might see this approach as offering the potential for chaos.
>>>> However, the profile would still be a 1:1 mapping to a well-understood
>>>> microformat. And if we have a reliable profile mechanism, the automated
>>>> discovery of the semantic translation would be straightforward. Hence,
>>>> humans get to use the language they want and computers get clean semantic
>>>> data. Isn't that what is at the heart of the Microformats approach?
>>>>
>>>> Does this make any sense?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -j
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Joe Andrieu
>>>> joe at andrieu.net
>>>> +1 (805) 705-8651
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>>>> microformats-discuss at microformats.org
>>>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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