From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Nov 1 00:59:35 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Nov 1 01:01:34 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610310840p162fc9f8q1a79a023f5d302e1@mail.gmail.com> <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com>, Charles Iliya Krempeaux writes >> >http://www.rorkvell.de/tech/dc >> > >> >What do you thing about that idea? >> >> It's not clear whether what you suggest is a proposal, or already >> accepted practice. > >I believe he's thinking out load... and asking us what we think. Then that ought to be made clear. As things stands, those pages could be read by a novice as a "how to" guide. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 03:48:15 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Nov 1 03:48:21 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <61848334-E132-4508-9F90-14248F381FBF@westciv.com> <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> Message-ID: <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/06, John Allsopp wrote: > Colin, > > > I don't like forums because I have to go to a website to use them. > > RSS anyone :-) I love my forum changes popping up in my feedreader. > Compared with older, non RSS based forums, it has definitely made a > world of difference. --- we talked awhile ago how to get this Mailing list via RSS[1] Depending on your feed reader you could filter by topic/keyword etc. This might help with people only interested in a specific term to keep the signal to noise ratio down. -brian [1] - http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006136.html -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From manuel.gonzalez.noriega at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 03:49:41 2006 From: manuel.gonzalez.noriega at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Noriega?=) Date: Wed Nov 1 03:49:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <84ce626f0610310840p162fc9f8q1a79a023f5d302e1@mail.gmail.com> <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: On 31/10/06, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > Hi folks, > > i am currently working on a kind of "HowTo" page on how to use Dublin Core in > a way very similar to microformats and combined with microformats. Currently > only the german version is mainly complete. The translation into english is > still work in progress. But at least, from what is already online, you might > get the idea: > > http://www.rorkvell.de/tech/dc Hi Siegfried, just so you know, there is already a quite adanced effort to create a Dublin Core Microformats proposal. http://www.webposible.com/blog/?p=137 [ES] Maybe you can contact its author, Alejandro Gonzalo Bravo Garc?a and look for ways to collaborate: alejandrogbravo [at] yahoo [dot] es -- Manuel http://linkja.com * un agregador de tendencias http://simplelogica.net http://simplelogica.net/logicola From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 06:06:47 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 06:07:01 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <61848334-E132-4508-9F90-14248F381FBF@westciv.com> <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com> On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:48 AM, Brian Suda wrote: > --- we talked awhile ago how to get this Mailing list via RSS[1] > Depending on your feed reader you could filter by topic/keyword etc. You can also filter RSS with any feed reader by using this proxy service: http://feedrinse.com/ As for how to reply, people can subscribe to the list and disable message delivery, allowing them to reply via email but read via RSS or the HTML archives or whatever. Peace, Scott From qidydl at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 08:16:17 2006 From: qidydl at gmail.com (David Osolkowski) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:16:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610311933.21683.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <46DB176F-E8FA-41C4-9F8C-D46D51642EE1@randomchaos.com> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: You can't use vote-for for this, because vote-for already has defined semantics; it represents a vote that has been cast, not the ability to cast a vote. It's already possible to use vote-for in both rel and rev; one indicates that the current page is a vote for the link destination, the other indicates that the link destination is a vote for the current page. I think the latter is not be considered authoritative. If you want to say this page provides a polling place, chose an attribute value that makes sense for that. Design for humans first, after all. Using the previously suggested scenario, "Page A is a place where you can create a vote for Page B, i.e. a polling place", you could have these links: On page A: The page being voted on On page B: Vote for this page here The first link says "the current page (page A) is a poll for the destination of this link (page B)." The second link says "the linked page (page A) is a poll for this page (page B)." I'm not suggesting "poll" as the actual value to use, however; at least some research should be done to see if there's a widely-used term that would be more appropriate. - David On 10/31/06, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > Hmmm, why not? Microformats do already define, that the XXX attribute with the > value of YYY does have meaning ZZZ. So in this case microformats has already > defined that the rev attribute with the value "vote-for" has some special > meaning. Why not define that the rel attribut with the value "vote-for" has > another meaning? From joel at messagr.com Wed Nov 1 08:35:33 2006 From: joel at messagr.com (Joel Selvadurai) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:35:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have come up before. I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. Thoughts? Regards, Joel. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 08:57:22 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:57:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <84ce626f0610311030g4760c488r1e6dbde9d55e9ef2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011757.23162.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Dienstag, 31. Oktober 2006 23:07 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > That seems sensible - but are "dotted" class names allowed, in HTML or > in style sheets? Sorry if i can answer only in the evening hours here in germany :) dotted class names are allowed. But it si somewhat tricky if you want to use them as selectors in css stylesheets. On the page mentioned i gave an idea how to do that. Unfortunately the IE, at least older versions, do not understand that. But that is out of scope. It is not essential beeing able to style these elements. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 08:58:19 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:58:25 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <200611011758.20091.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Dienstag, 31. Oktober 2006 23:09 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > It's not clear whether what you suggest is a proposal, or already > accepted practice. Well, all the keywords are indeed accepted practice. But the use cases are new, so a proposal. It's just using an old standard in new ways. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:00:00 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:00:13 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <21e770780610311419m2ab7f5e0j73c155f97fef7cd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <21e770780610311419m2ab7f5e0j73c155f97fef7cd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011800.00911.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Dienstag, 31. Oktober 2006 23:19 schrieb Brian Suda: > Just an FYI: you are independantly approaching the same result as > "Embedded RDF"[1,2]. Probably best to not reinvent the wheel. Embedded RDF is nice, but out of scope for this idea. This idea is using the microformats ideas and methods and best practices to add new use cases to embedding Dublin Core in html (and xhtml). Without need of rdf. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:02:48 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:02:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610312327x37a2a189s983050be589cc211@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610312327x37a2a189s983050be589cc211@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011802.48639.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 08:27 schrieb Charles Iliya Krempeaux: > > That seems sensible - but are "dotted" class names allowed, in HTML or > > in style sheets? > > I think you'd need to do it with something like this... > > .DC\.title { > /* CSS here */ > } I already gave a hint on the page. The best method would be to use: *[class="DC.title"] { .. } Unfortunately older IEs do not understand that. But the purpose of the document is not about how to style the elements :) Html classes and IDs are not mainly ment as vehicle for styling with css. They are meant for adding/enhancing the semantics. From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 09:03:28 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:03:32 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780611010903v296f52acv9ae5f304a04cf1e0@mail.gmail.com> There have been attempts at documenting ToDos in the wild. I think your description of an action sounds like a todo. http://microformats.org/wiki/htodo Feel free to document your finds as well. -brian On 11/1/06, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > Hi, > > I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have > come up before. > > I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an > action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action > may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. > > Thoughts? > > Regards, > Joel. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:03:36 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:03:40 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011803.36501.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 08:28 schrieb Charles Iliya Krempeaux: > > It's not clear whether what you suggest is a proposal, or already > > accepted practice. > > I believe he's thinking out load... and asking us what we think. Indeed :) You get best ideas in dialogue. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:05:58 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:06:03 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011805.59062.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 09:59 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > Then that ought to be made clear. As things stands, those pages could be > read by a novice as a "how to" guide. Well, it is sort of "HowTo". And it is a proposal. Although very closely based on a very old standard. It's just a proposal for new use cases. Logically developed from the microformats proposals/ideas and the already existing semantics from that standard. You may think of it as an RFC (Request For Comment) From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:12:12 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:12:16 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <200611011812.12644.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 12:49 schrieb Manuel Gonz?lez Noriega: > just so you know, there is already a quite adanced effort to create a > Dublin Core Microformats proposal. That is great, i didn't know that. > > http://www.webposible.com/blog/?p=137 [ES] > > Maybe you can contact its author, Alejandro Gonzalo Bravo Garc?a and > look for ways to collaborate: alejandrogbravo [at] yahoo [dot] es I just wrote a mail. From costello at mitre.org Wed Nov 1 09:18:10 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:15:07 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very interesting idea Andy. Thanks. Okay, now we have three design approaches to marking up this text: John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... The three designs are: Design #1 John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... The value of "fn" is the concatenation of the "value" subproperties: fn = concat('John ', 'Public') = John Public Notice the space after John. This enables the fn value to be formatted. Design #2 John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... The value of "fn" is the concatenation of the "value" subproperties: fn = concat('John', ' ', 'Public') = John Public Notice that now there is a concatenation of three values, the middle being a "spacer value." Design #3 John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... This third approach completely sidesteps the need for the "value" subproperty. Which design is best practice? What are the pros and cons to each design? /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andy Mabbett Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 4:34 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In message , "Costello, Roger L." writes > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... I would mark that up as: John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:15:41 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:15:45 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 17:16 schrieb David Osolkowski: > You can't use vote-for for this, because vote-for already has defined > semantics; it represents a vote that has been cast, not the ability to > cast a vote. It's already possible to use vote-for in both rel and > rev; one indicates that the current page is a vote for the link No, rel is explicitely excluded. And exactly that is what i don't think of beeing adequate. If there already exists a good semantic for rel="vote-for", that's just fine. > On page A: The page being voted on > On page B: Vote for this page here What about ... ? From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 09:16:19 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:16:30 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:35 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > Hi, > > I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have > come up before. > > I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an > action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action > may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. > > Thoughts? It sounds like what you're describing is contact information, which is covered by hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard Specifically, the 'tel' and 'email' properties cover your examples. You can embed hCard within hResume. Peace, Scott From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 09:52:56 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:53:05 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2006, at 11:15 AM, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 17:16 schrieb David Osolkowski: >> You can't use vote-for for this, because vote-for already has defined >> semantics; it represents a vote that has been cast, not the >> ability to >> cast a vote. It's already possible to use vote-for in both rel and >> rev; one indicates that the current page is a vote for the link > No, rel is explicitely excluded. And exactly that is what i don't > think of > beeing adequate. If there already exists a good semantic for > rel="vote-for", > that's just fine. rel="vote-for", by the definition in the HTML spec, can only mean the reverse of what rev="vote-for" means. It can't mean anything else. There is already an established meaning for rev="vote-for", and the reverse of that doesn't really communicate anything useful. There's an explanation of this here: >> On page A: The page being voted on >> On page B: Vote for this page here > > What about ... ? I believe that means the page containing this link is voting for a JavaScript function. Probably not what you want to communicate. Peace, Scott From rob at sanchothefat.com Wed Nov 1 10:10:24 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:10:33 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4548E310.3020007@sanchothefat.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:35 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have >> come up before. >> >> I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an >> action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action >> may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. >> >> Thoughts? > > It sounds like what you're describing is contact information, which is > covered by hCard: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard > > Specifically, the 'tel' and 'email' properties cover your examples. > You can embed hCard within hResume. > > Peace, > Scott > > I'd agree with Scott there, 'call' and 'email' in hcard are more like a choice or just information presented to the reader, actions suggest something you're supposed to do on a page or what a particular page itself is supposed to do. The
attribute "action" covers that. Say you have an email form, perhaps nested in your hcard instead of a mailto, this will already have an "action", namely 'contact' or 'send-mail' or whatever the name of the page is that the form posts to. I can't think of a way to make your email address exportable doing it that way though, unless you can have action="mailto:foo@bar.com" but that just seems silly. Not to mention the w3c spec doesn't want to touch action="anything-other-than-an-http-uri" with a barge pole. Rob O From qidydl at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 10:23:39 2006 From: qidydl at gmail.com (David Osolkowski) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:23:51 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: On 11/1/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > There is already an established meaning for rev="vote-for", and the > reverse of that doesn't really communicate anything useful. I don't know about that; I could certainly imagine, say, a proposal asking people to vote by making blog posts and linking, and then the proposal has a list showing who voted. It shouldn't be *authoritative*, because only the person casting the vote can say for sure that they voted a certain way. > > What about ... ? > > I believe that means the page containing this link is voting for a > JavaScript function. Probably not what you want to communicate. Hmm, isn't that backwards? somevotingfunction() is a vote-for the current page. See the FAQ entry that you yourself linked. I very much doubt that such a link makes sense, though. - David From juth at loc.gov Wed Nov 1 10:38:31 2006 From: juth at loc.gov (Justin Thorp) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:37:51 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions Message-ID: Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. Cheers, Justin Thorp ****************** Justin Thorp Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives Library of Congress e - juth@loc.gov p - 202/707-9541 >>> rob@sanchothefat.com 11/01/06 1:10 PM >>> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:35 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have >> come up before. >> >> I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an >> action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action >> may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. >> >> Thoughts? > > It sounds like what you're describing is contact information, which is > covered by hCard: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard > > Specifically, the 'tel' and 'email' properties cover your examples. > You can embed hCard within hResume. > > Peace, > Scott > > I'd agree with Scott there, 'call' and 'email' in hcard are more like a choice or just information presented to the reader, actions suggest something you're supposed to do on a page or what a particular page itself is supposed to do. The attribute "action" covers that. Say you have an email form, perhaps nested in your hcard instead of a mailto, this will already have an "action", namely 'contact' or 'send-mail' or whatever the name of the page is that the form posts to. I can't think of a way to make your email address exportable doing it that way though, unless you can have action="mailto:foo@bar.com" but that just seems silly. Not to mention the w3c spec doesn't want to touch action="anything-other-than-an-http-uri" with a barge pole. Rob O _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Nov 1 10:42:19 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:43:49 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <61848334-E132-4508-9F90-14248F381FBF@westciv.com> <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: In message <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com>, Scott Reynen writes >On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:48 AM, Brian Suda wrote: > >> we talked awhile ago how to get this Mailing list via RSS >> Depending on your feed reader you could filter by topic/keyword etc. >As for how to reply, people can subscribe to the list and disable >message delivery, allowing them to reply via email but read via RSS or >the HTML archives or whatever. I still feel that that's far too complicated, for the sort of people I've referred to. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Nov 1 10:55:13 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:56:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , "Costello, Roger L." writes >Design #3 > >John > will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... >What are the pros and cons to each design? A "pro" for #3 is that users can tell who John is on the first mention - and, subsequently, the he's not the John Smith referred to elsewhere. It also side-steps the concatenation-including-a-space issue in your other examples. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From ryan at technorati.com Wed Nov 1 11:13:58 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:14:02 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97DEB9FF-41D8-410E-AAAE-016200EF829D@technorati.com> On Oct 29, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Design #1 > > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... > > ... > > Design #2 > > > John > > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... > > ... > > Which is best practice - design #1 or design #2? Honestly, they're both a bit ugly. Were you surprised that the value excerpting didn't put a space between the values? I'm guessing that the most common usage for value excerpting would require spaces between the concatenated values. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Wed Nov 1 11:18:03 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:18:12 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] xFolk use question - Using "taggedlink" inside "description" element In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote: > A question about xFolk:[1] Is it invalid to include the TAGGEDLINK > inside the DESCRIPTION, and as a value of the same class attribute > as used for the XFOLKENTRY? > > My example code: > >
>

Joi Ito asks, Is YouTube "Web 2.0" as a follow-up to > a post by Lawrence Lessig, "The Ethics of Web 2.0." > Lessig specifically differentiates between "true sharing" and "fake > sharing." For Lessig, YouTube is a "fake sharing" site because it > does not allow users to download content; all traffic is directed > back to YouTube, thus YouTube, not the users, essentially controls > the content.

>
You can put the taggedLink inside the description, but you can't put the description class name on the same element as the 'xfolkentry'[1]. -ryan 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#nesting-properties (though that page is for hcard, it applies to everything) From ryan at technorati.com Wed Nov 1 11:28:20 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:28:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610311933.21683.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <46DB176F-E8FA-41C4-9F8C-D46D51642EE1@randomchaos.com> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <41A472E1-0459-4260-A249-BA24E5D3ACEB@technorati.com> On Oct 31, 2006, at 11:17 AM, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > It's not about redefining the rel or rev attribute. It's about > redefining > the "vote-for" attribute value if used with the rel attibute. We have some significant problems with using @rel=~'vote-for', which IMO, keep us from ever using it: 1. The original spec of vote-links erroneously specified that the vote-links link relationships should be on the @rel attribute. There's content on the web (which will never go away) that uses this construct. So, using @rel='vote-for' is not compatible with past specifications. 2. Using @rel and @rev for different meanings is not future proof. It is highly likely that future versions of HTML will drop @rev. -ryan From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 11:42:23 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:42:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> Message-ID: <200611012042.23681.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 19:23 schrieb David Osolkowski: > > > What about ... ? > > > > I believe that means the page containing this link is voting for a > > JavaScript function. Probably not what you want to communicate. > > Hmm, isn't that backwards? somevotingfunction() is a vote-for the > current page. See the FAQ entry that you yourself linked. I very > much doubt that such a link makes sense, though. Well, at least i know many examples saying exactly that, but without using rel="vote-for". There are many pages out there trying to make the visitors vote for them. I dont' think that i myself will ever do something like that, i never will beg vor any votes! But who am i to disallow that for anybody else? So, if that makes sense or not is up to the author of that page, not up to me or the microformats team. The microformats team simply should define the semantics of that. From rob at sanchothefat.com Wed Nov 1 11:59:38 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:59:41 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Justin Thorp wrote: > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just misunderstood. > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the event in question? > Cheers, > Justin Thorp From juth at loc.gov Wed Nov 1 12:48:02 2006 From: juth at loc.gov (Justin Thorp) Date: Wed Nov 1 12:47:11 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions Message-ID: I think that either should work. A lot of events or things that I would put on my calendar have events that are associate with them in some way. Maybe a professor could mark up his course outline with a ToDo microformat. The user could then easily grab the ToDos and load them into his/her Outlook or TadaList. -justin ****************** Justin Thorp Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives Library of Congress e - juth@loc.gov p - 202/707-9541 >>> rob@sanchothefat.com 11/01/06 2:59 PM >>> Justin Thorp wrote: > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the event in question? From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 13:25:24 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 13:25:39 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] To-do (Was: Actions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <820E484A-8E35-46A8-9310-3A502760B649@randomchaos.com> On Nov 1, 2006, at 2:48 PM, Justin Thorp wrote: > A lot of events or things that I would put on my calendar have > events that are associate with them in some way. > > Maybe a professor could mark up his course outline with a ToDo > microformat. The user could then easily grab the ToDos and load > them into his/her Outlook or TadaList. If you're interested in a to-do microformat, you might want to start documenting examples of online to-do list markup and existing to-do list formats. For an example of the latter, there's a to-do component in vCalendar which was never incorporated into hCalendar. See: Peace, Scott From cayle.graumann at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 13:32:13 2006 From: cayle.graumann at gmail.com (Cayle Graumann) Date: Wed Nov 1 13:32:18 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup project management data using microformats on the web that could be automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > misunderstood. > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > event in question? In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event also. > > > Cheers, > > Justin Thorp > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > Cayle Missouri From juth at loc.gov Wed Nov 1 13:57:03 2006 From: juth at loc.gov (Justin Thorp) Date: Wed Nov 1 13:56:36 2006 Subject: starting a brainstorming page - Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions Message-ID: I am busy until later this evening but I would be happy to take a first pass at a todo microformat brainstorming page, unless you want to. Cheers, Justin ****************** Justin Thorp Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives Library of Congress e - juth@loc.gov p - 202/707-9541 >>> cayle.graumann@gmail.com 11/01/06 4:32 PM >>> Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup project management data using microformats on the web that could be automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > misunderstood. > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > event in question? In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event also. > > > Cheers, > > Justin Thorp > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > Cayle Missouri _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 14:59:54 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 15:00:07 2006 Subject: starting a brainstorming page - Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95B0AA6B-AB9C-4A17-8AE1-A714C8662180@randomchaos.com> On Nov 1, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Justin Thorp wrote: > I am busy until later this evening but I would be happy to take a > first pass at a todo microformat brainstorming page, unless you > want to. Brainstorming tends to be more productive when it's based on research. Otherwise, you're likely to reinvent a few wheels. Please consider filling out todo-examples and todo-formating a bit before todo-brainstorming. See: http://microformats.org/wiki/process Peace, Scott From rob at sanchothefat.com Wed Nov 1 15:30:28 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Wed Nov 1 15:30:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] To-do (Was: Actions) In-Reply-To: <820E484A-8E35-46A8-9310-3A502760B649@randomchaos.com> References: <820E484A-8E35-46A8-9310-3A502760B649@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <45492E14.2080702@sanchothefat.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 1, 2006, at 2:48 PM, Justin Thorp wrote: > >> A lot of events or things that I would put on my calendar have events >> that are associate with them in some way. >> >> Maybe a professor could mark up his course outline with a ToDo >> microformat. The user could then easily grab the ToDos and load them >> into his/her Outlook or TadaList. > > If you're interested in a to-do microformat, you might want to start > documenting examples of online to-do list markup and existing to-do > list formats. For an example of the latter, there's a to-do component > in vCalendar which was never incorporated into hCalendar. See: > > > > Peace, > Scott > > Cool, cheers Scott, I'm going to make a start getting a few examples together in answer to the two questions in that section. I've only used basecamp and mozilla sunbird for this kind of thing before so I've got a ton of reading to do first but essentially the vtodos it exports via iCal can reference milestones/events or act as standalone todo lists. I'm not sure if this works by embedding vtodos in the vevent or using an include method for referencing yet. This is where my research is starting but the page has a bare minumum of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICalendar#To-do_.28VTODO.29 Can anyone suggest better resources? I can foresee vtodos and the little extras they offer embedded in a web page and enabled by some PHP/AJAX combo because by definition they need to be dynamic e.g. status changes. Rob O From jeremyboggs at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 16:04:21 2006 From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs) Date: Wed Nov 1 16:04:02 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: <97DEB9FF-41D8-410E-AAAE-016200EF829D@technorati.com> References: <97DEB9FF-41D8-410E-AAAE-016200EF829D@technorati.com> Message-ID: <968C2CAF-3239-4B29-A994-30A962994CB2@gmail.com> "Costello, Roger L." writes: > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... While this is more an editorial suggestion than a microformat suggestion, it seems the best solution would be: John Public will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about... In general, it isn't good writing practice to mention someone's first name in a sentence, and then their last name in a later sentence (and vice versa). Even if, with hCard, we could combine the first and last names into one contact card, it isn't clear just from the text itself that "John" and "Mr. Public" are the same person; It would be jarring to the reader. With the change above, the microformat parser can easily grab the hCard for "John Public" AND the reader will know that "Mr. Public" is in fact "John Public." Now, I understand the microformat question raised (it is very interesting one, I might add), but it seems like the best solution in this instance would be to avoid the problem to begin with as much as possible. Are the instances on the web, Roger, that the scenario you posed to the list is in being used? Or was this more a hypothetical question? Best, Jeremy Boggs From bewest at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 20:10:21 2006 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Wed Nov 1 20:10:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com> > It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed. Seems like a lot has changed to me. Lots of people are working on the wiki. From cayle.graumann at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 22:28:01 2006 From: cayle.graumann at gmail.com (Cayle Graumann) Date: Wed Nov 1 22:28:07 2006 Subject: starting a brainstorming page - Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Justin, I've finished reading the iCalendar spec (RC2445) and it looks like the spec prohibits nesting of vtodo's either inside of a vevent or another vtodo, and it prohibits nesting a vevent in a vtodo. The spec allows a vtodo to be related to another vtodo, a valarm or a vjournal and maybe to a vevent (the spec is unclear on this - under vevent it says it can be related to a todo, but under todo it lists all the others and leaves vevent off), through the "related" property. A vTodo is essentially just a vevent with more properties both at the conceptual and fieldname levels. So much is the same between vevent and vtodo that it makes me wonder why they didn't just add the few different fields to vevents rather than put them vTodo. They may have been trying to make the parsing simpler or maintain compatibility with an earlier implementation, I guess. The other major thing different between them is that a vTodo is free/busy neutral, while a vEvent can be used in the free/busy operation. I guess that the thought is that a vTodo can either be done or not done and that it doesn't preclude you from and doing something else. The precedent has already been set for extending the iCalendar spec in hCalendar, with the recommended use of embedded hCard instead of simple strings for ATTENDEE, CONTACT, and ORGANIZER. a side by side comparison of vevent and vtodo: begin: vevent/begin:vtodo class/class /completed created/created description/description dtstart/dtstart geo/geo last-mod/last-mod location/location organizer/organizer /percent priority/priority dtstamp/dtstamp seq/seq status/status summary/summary transp/ uid/uid url/url recurid/recurid /due dtend/ duration/duration attach/attach attendee/attendee categories/categories comment/comment contact/contact exdate/exdate exrule/exrule rstatus/rstatus related/related resources/resources rdate/rdate rrule/rrule x-prop/xprop end vevent/end vtodo As you can see, the vtodo adds complete, percent, and due to vevent, and drops transp and dtend. I think we should for a first try take hCalendar vEvent as authoritative and build from there. After that I think that I'll take a crack at defining the rstatus and related properties to implement the 7 or so relationships I emailed earlier. I've been meaning to get a trial basecamp account and test it for work anyway, so I'll see what kind of vTodo's it exports. MS Project doesn't directly support vTodo that I'm aware of, but it does have an XML output which I was going to see how well it might map to vTodo's. In fact one of my goals in this is to be able to transform that MS Project XML into whatever we come up with, either that or query the Project database directly which may actually be easier. Cayle, Missouri On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: > Justin, > > I let you take a first crack at it as I'm pretty busy myself with > work and won't be able to get to anything past re-reading in depth the > iCalendar RFC until Saturday Morning (Central US Time). It looks like > we have our work cut out for us though. At the outset, I think we > will need use cases showing embedding both hCalendar events in hTodo > structures and hTodo structures in hCalendar. > > For my scheduling data, I think it would be good to have a standard > way to say the following: > > 1) whether a todo item depends on an outcome of another todo item. > (todo conditional branching) > 2) an item must be complete before another begins (tail-head dependency) > 3) must be complete before another can complete (tail-slide dependency) > 4) must be complete at the same time another is complete. (tail-tail dependency) > 5) must be started at the same time as another item. (head-head dependency) > 6) must be begun, but not necessarily complete, before another can > start (head-slide dependency). > 7) must be done at exactly the same time as another (head-head > tail-tail dependency) > > I don't yet know whether the iCalendar spec already has a defined > approach for these kind of relationships between todo items. If it > does, great! and we should use that, if not, then I guess we'll have > some more thinking to do. > > Cheers to you too, > > Cayle, > Missouri > > On 11/1/06, Justin Thorp wrote: > > I am busy until later this evening but I would be happy to take a first pass at a todo microformat brainstorming page, unless you want to. > > > > Cheers, > > Justin > > > > > > > > ****************** > > Justin Thorp > > Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives > > Library of Congress > > e - juth@loc.gov > > p - 202/707-9541 > > > > >>> cayle.graumann@gmail.com 11/01/06 4:32 PM >>> > > Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and > > calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup > > project management data using microformats on the web that could be > > automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as > > potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. > > > > On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > > > > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > > > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > > > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > > > misunderstood. > > > > > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > > > > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > > > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > > > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > > > event in question? > > > > In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the > > completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a > > list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event > > also. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Justin Thorp > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > Cayle > > Missouri > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Nov 2 01:15:15 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Nov 2 01:17:10 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included! In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin West writes >> It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed. > >Seems like a lot has changed to me. Lots of people are working on the wiki. You snipped my quote of my original post: >>>I've just been introducing a colleague to the concept of hCalendar; >>and >>>referred her to: >>> >>> http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar >>> >>>She was baffled; not lest because, though the page had a treatise on >>>"Semantic XHTML Design Principles", it didn't list the hCalendar >>>fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional! Here's the "diff" from the 'wiki', from when I wrote that, 'til now: Perhaps you could point where in the small amount of new material the hCalendar fields are listed, and where those which are optional are identified? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From joel at messagr.com Thu Nov 2 02:07:12 2006 From: joel at messagr.com (Joel Selvadurai) Date: Thu Nov 2 02:07:15 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: Since I opened these can of worms I think I should contribute again at this point. I had in mind the idea of microformats interacting with each other. So, for exmaple, if a hJob would meet a hResume in the ether, then there would be an action associated to each one, like email the owner of the Resume that this particular job is a good match. That is what I meant by an action. I think the idea of microformats interaction with each other is an interesting one. On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: > Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and > calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup > project management data using microformats on the web that could be > automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as > potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. > > On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > > misunderstood. > > > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > > event in question? > > In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the > completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a > list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event > also. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Justin Thorp > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > Cayle > Missouri > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From timber at lava.net Thu Nov 2 02:24:16 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Thu Nov 2 02:24:20 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> How would such a meeting occur? It seems to me like this would only happen when an end user cross references hJobs and hResumes. Plus, the idea of hJobs floating out there searching for hResumes to email sounds really, really freaky :D -Colin On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:07 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > Since I opened these can of worms I think I should contribute again at > this point. I had in mind the idea of microformats interacting with > each other. So, for exmaple, if a hJob would meet a hResume in the > ether, then there would be an action associated to each one, like > email the owner of the Resume that this particular job is a good > match. That is what I meant by an action. I think the idea of > microformats interaction with each other is an interesting one. > > On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: >> Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and >> calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup >> project management data using microformats on the web that could be >> automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as >> potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. >> >> On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: >> > >> > Justin Thorp wrote: >> > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something >> that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the >> page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. >> > > >> > > >> > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I >> > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a >> > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I >> just >> > misunderstood. >> > >> > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. >> > > >> > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation >> where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the >> tickets for the rock concert. >> > > >> > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar >> that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me >> to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and >> import into my ToDo list. >> > > >> > >> > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give >> them a >> > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time- >> frame (or >> > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to >> the >> > event in question? >> >> In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the >> completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a >> list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event >> also. >> >> > >> > > Cheers, >> > > Justin Thorp >> > _______________________________________________ >> > microformats-discuss mailing list >> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > >> >> Cayle >> Missouri >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 02:33:49 2006 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Nov 2 02:33:53 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> Message-ID: On 11/2/06, Colin Barrett wrote: > How would such a meeting occur? It seems to me like this would only > happen when an end user cross references hJobs and hResumes. > > Plus, the idea of hJobs floating out there searching for hResumes to > email sounds really, really freaky :D Self-aware microformats? oooo! Anyway. This seems all a bit out of scope, unless I'm misunderstanding. Sounds like you want to write some nice software to cross-reference stuff marked up as resumes and job listings and notify the owners of either items, using their contact information. Although this would be cool for many situations, this is a software designers job - not a microformats. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From joel at messagr.com Thu Nov 2 03:06:00 2006 From: joel at messagr.com (Joel Selvadurai) Date: Thu Nov 2 03:06:05 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> Message-ID: I think that services in the future won't be consumed through a web page. They will just happen, the outcome of which will be dictated by an action (or set of rules). It is this sort of 'action' that I'm trying to get at. On 11/2/06, Colin Barrett wrote: > How would such a meeting occur? It seems to me like this would only > happen when an end user cross references hJobs and hResumes. > > Plus, the idea of hJobs floating out there searching for hResumes to > email sounds really, really freaky :D > > -Colin > > On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:07 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > > > Since I opened these can of worms I think I should contribute again at > > this point. I had in mind the idea of microformats interacting with > > each other. So, for exmaple, if a hJob would meet a hResume in the > > ether, then there would be an action associated to each one, like > > email the owner of the Resume that this particular job is a good > > match. That is what I meant by an action. I think the idea of > > microformats interaction with each other is an interesting one. > > > > On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: > >> Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and > >> calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup > >> project management data using microformats on the web that could be > >> automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as > >> potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. > >> > >> On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > >> > > >> > Justin Thorp wrote: > >> > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something > >> that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the > >> page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > >> > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > >> > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I > >> just > >> > misunderstood. > >> > > >> > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > >> > > > >> > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation > >> where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the > >> tickets for the rock concert. > >> > > > >> > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar > >> that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me > >> to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and > >> import into my ToDo list. > >> > > > >> > > >> > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give > >> them a > >> > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time- > >> frame (or > >> > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to > >> the > >> > event in question? > >> > >> In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the > >> completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a > >> list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event > >> also. > >> > >> > > >> > > Cheers, > >> > > Justin Thorp > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > microformats-discuss mailing list > >> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > >> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > >> > > >> > >> Cayle > >> Missouri > >> _______________________________________________ > >> microformats-discuss mailing list > >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org > >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From costello at mitre.org Thu Nov 2 03:46:00 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Thu Nov 2 03:44:18 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: <968C2CAF-3239-4B29-A994-30A962994CB2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jeremy. I am creating a tutorial on hCard. The approach I am taking is to show some HTML text (made up), and then describe how to mark it up using hCard properties. One point I want to make in my tutorial is that marking up the existing HTML text with hCard properties won't impact the existing HTML presentation. /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Boggs Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:04 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty "Costello, Roger L." writes: > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... While this is more an editorial suggestion than a microformat suggestion, it seems the best solution would be: John Public will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about... In general, it isn't good writing practice to mention someone's first name in a sentence, and then their last name in a later sentence (and vice versa). Even if, with hCard, we could combine the first and last names into one contact card, it isn't clear just from the text itself that "John" and "Mr. Public" are the same person; It would be jarring to the reader. With the change above, the microformat parser can easily grab the hCard for "John Public" AND the reader will know that "Mr. Public" is in fact "John Public." Now, I understand the microformat question raised (it is very interesting one, I might add), but it seems like the best solution in this instance would be to avoid the problem to begin with as much as possible. Are the instances on the web, Roger, that the scenario you posed to the list is in being used? Or was this more a hypothetical question? Best, Jeremy Boggs _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From costello at mitre.org Thu Nov 2 03:55:58 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Thu Nov 2 03:53:41 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good point Andy. I agree. I tend to think that Design #3 should be considered Best Practice. A thought occurred to me with regards to the Design #3 approach. Can I add information that didn't exist in the original HTML text? Suppose that this is the original HTML text: John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... And here is how I mark it up (using Design #3): John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... Notice that I added information that was not in the original HTML text, namely, his middle initial and his suffix. Is this reasonable? legal? good practice? best practice? terrible practice? Thoughts? /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andy Mabbett Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 1:55 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In message , "Costello, Roger L." writes >Design #3 > >John > will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... >What are the pros and cons to each design? A "pro" for #3 is that users can tell who John is on the first mention - and, subsequently, the he's not the John Smith referred to elsewhere. It also side-steps the concatenation-including-a-space issue in your other examples. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mikeschinkel at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 05:37:42 2006 From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel) Date: Thu Nov 2 05:37:49 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> Message-ID: <002101c6fe84$133f6de0$0702a8c0@Guides.local> I'm going to reply to several responses at once. >> Why not create a new mailing list for each proposal, once it's >> reached a certain stage? Ryan King>> Because that's more administrative overhead for Ryan King>> admin's who're already overloaded. The problem is that the current Microformat process is not at all scalable. It is much like having you managing a file containing all domain names, and anytime someone wants a new domain name or subdomain, or make a change, they have to get your time and attention. I think we all know what a boon DNS was. We should look to benefit from prior knowledge and organize the Microformat inititive so it can scale. Frances Berriman>> I agree. Creating a list for each proposal Frances Berriman>> seems unmanageable and would result in Frances Berriman>> a lot of dead lists eventually. It all depends on how you manage the process. If you make new lists willy-nilly, yes. But if we look for a group of people that are serious about creating an Microformat ontology for a vertical area and we have obviously committted people, then I see no reason why most lists would not end up thriving. Frances Berriman>> Personally, I quite like watching the general Frances Berriman>> chatter about various proposals - rather Frances Berriman>> than having to subscribe to each individual Frances Berriman>> one. Maybe you do, but I'm already maxed trying to watch this list with the traffic is has; if it doubled, trippled, or was an order of magnitude more, there is no way I could ever deal with it. And I have to believe the same would be true for you. Andy Mabbett>> For example, several academic and professional Andy Mabbett>> taxonomists have told me in e-mail that they Andy Mabbett>> would be interested in the species proposal, Andy Mabbett>> (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna), Andy Mabbett>> but donot have the time to follow a general Andy Mabbett>> mailing list; indeed, a couple asked me specifically Andy Mabbett>> if I would set up a separate mailing list for the subject. Andy Mabbett>> How do you suggest that we engage such people? I'm 100% with Andy on this. Delegating authority for vertical microformats is the only way to scale the initiative, and this initiative, and this initiative could explode in a very good way if we just give it the right mechanisms and reduce the friction. John Allsopp>> I reiterate my suggestion for a "modern" forum like John Allsopp>> BBPress, where you can subscribe via RSS to individual John Allsopp>> threads, where threads can be tagged, where searching John Allsopp>> is much less of a pain than with a mailing list ... I'm also 100% with John on this. Forums also given the benefit of providing a much multidimensional organization for archives. It's also much, much easier to follow the history for a thread. You can also do a lot more with search engine optization of a forum to bring in interest people. Colin Barrett>> I don't like forums because I have to go to a website Colin Barrett>> to use them. And I *far* prefer using a forum over a mailing list. The only reason I'm on this mailing list is because my interest in Microformats outweights how much I despise using mailing lists. Which means I'm highly interested in Microformats because I really, really despise mailing lists. And I don't like mailing lists because I tried to stay focused but getting messages is a constant interruption (yes I use an inbox rule, but Outlook freezes for a split second every time I get messages, so I am constantly aware of them. I sometimes have to take my laptop somewhere so I can work without all the infernal email. I hate to say it, but it sure was nice with the list server was down. ;) Colin Barrett>> I'd much rather work from my email Colin Barrett>> client, which has a nice big text box, Colin Barrett>> unlike a forum, which often have Colin Barrett>> ridiculously small text entry elements. "Always have ridiculously small text entry elements" would be a valid reason not to use a forum, but "often have ridiculously small text entry elements" is not. It seems like maybe you haven't actually seen some of the newer forums in use over the past ~5 years? Any chance you developed this bias early on when forums sucked, and haven't returned to use a forum since? (I'm not attacking you, just frustrated with having to use this list when forums IMO are so much better. I also had someone who is using a forum I administer fight me tooth and nail to stick with email, and a year later she is one of the highest volume users of the forum.) I'd done a lot of research into forums, and I've come to the conclusion there is really only one forum worth seriously considering for its features and 3rd party support (unless you are on Windows Server) and that is vBulletin (http://www.vbulletin.com). It doesn't have tiny little text boxes and have some really incredible features. And if costs $85/year to rent or $160 to buy w/a year of upgrades; definitely a bargain. What's more, it has a mailing list integration module (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=65152) so we could have the best of both worlds. The envelope pushers could have their forum, and the lluddites could stick with email. ;-) Colin Barrett>> Plus, the UI in my email client is much nicer than that of most forums. vBulletin can be configured to send posts to your email, so you'll be able to still use your email client for reading if you like. Colin Barrett>> There are a host of other Colin Barrett>> disadvantages to using a forum. Can you detail those disadvantages for us to discuss/debate? Colin Barrett>> Granted, mailing lists aren't perfect, but we have one now and it works. A vBulletin forum can be set up in a two hours max. I'll run it if that's an option so it would only be my time. Colin Barrett>> Forums also require a bit more administration Colin Barrett>> than a mailing list, and our list administrators Colin Barrett>> are already over-worked, it seems. How does it take more admin? I administer a vBulletin forum right now and it takes almost no time at all. You don't have to worry about issues with POP3 and SMTP so it IMO is actually easier. -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ From rob at sanchothefat.com Thu Nov 2 06:55:52 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Thu Nov 2 06:56:26 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> Message-ID: <454A06F8.3040005@sanchothefat.com> Joel Selvadurai wrote: > I think that services in the future won't be consumed through a web > page. They will just happen, the outcome of which will be dictated by > an action (or set of rules). It is this sort of 'action' that I'm > trying to get at. > > I'm pretty confused here but to get things to 'meet' like that you'd need a web service like a microformats specific search engine or spider that pulls the info out and cross-references it. I've got an upcoming project for a recruitment firm with a db full of resumes. It shouldn't be too hard to factor in

Is YouTube "Web 2.0" as a follow-up to a > post by Lawrence Lessig, "The Ethics of Web 2.0." Lessig > specifically differentiates between "true sharing" and "fake > sharing." For Lessig, YouTube is a "fake sharing" site because it > does not allow users to download content; all traffic is directed > back to YouTube, thus YouTube, not the users, essentially controls > the content.

>
> > thanks! > Jeremy > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/xfolk > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > -- Bud Gibson cell: 734-657-4800 web: http://thecommunityengine.com From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Nov 2 13:06:15 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Nov 2 13:06:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo microformats with Google Earth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A7CE540-8EAF-49BF-A92F-BA6081DDB2E1@randomchaos.com> On Nov 2, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Suppose I have an ordinary HTML web page. Embedded in the web page > are > a number of geo microformats. The web page has a link to, say, a > Javascript file. When the web page is loaded in a browser, the > Javascript is automatically invoked and extracts all the geo > Microformats, mashes them with Google Earth, and then displays a > Google > Earth map on the browser screen with dots at the locations where the > geo microformats indicated. > > For a user who doesn't want a map display, he can receive the same web > page, but with a link to a CSS file, which displays the geo data in a > textual form. > > Thus, the same data can be rendered in multiple different ways. > > Has anyone done this kind of thing? Care to share how you did it? Brian Suda has done this here: http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/ Peace, Scott From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Nov 2 15:05:27 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Nov 2 15:07:13 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo - inside our outside address? Message-ID: Can an hCard's "geo" property appear inside an "adr"? Tittesworth Visitor Centre Leek, Staffordshire ST13 8SW; SJ9960 or only outside it: Tittesworth Visitor Centre Leek, Staffordshire ST13 8SW; SJ9960 ? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Nov 2 15:11:10 2006 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Nov 2 15:11:15 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20611021511u70ce72w69609b9bee86f075@mail.gmail.com> Ah, you learn something new every day [1]. Regards, etc... David [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire On 11/2/06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , > "Costello, Roger L." writes > > >John will be > >our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... > > >Is this reasonable? > > No; it's unforgivable. > > One should *never* use "Mr." and "Esq." at the same time! > > -- > Andy Mabbett > Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: > > Free Our Data: > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onamine.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From bewest at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 16:37:59 2006 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Thu Nov 2 16:38:03 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a > thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Nov 3 01:13:06 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Nov 3 01:14:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <23DXkgiigwSFFw7I@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin West writes >> If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a >> thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] >> notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > >I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail >clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of >"tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. ...providing everyone used them properly. How would you ensure that? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 01:14:56 2006 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Nov 3 01:15:00 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/3/06, Benjamin West wrote: > > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a > > thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > > I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail > clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of > "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. I like simple solutions. :) To be honest, I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki AND a forum. Selfish, selfish of me. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From chris.messina at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 01:43:44 2006 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Fri Nov 3 01:43:50 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611030143i762b5aaaw93527ead877dc1cd@mail.gmail.com> Wow. This thread spiraled into nowhere land quickly. I mean, once you're into personal preferences, you know that you're never going to win. Some prefer email, some forums, some RSS -- hell -- it's just the *display* of data. Thank g*d we separated those two a long time ago so that people can have their way! (Just for notes, Google Groups Beta is kind of the ideal merger of forums, email and RSS, if you haven't tried it yet). Anyway, let me throw out something controversial to steer this back. So there's been discussion about creating new lists for every new microformat that's proposed. Well, that sounds like a very fractious action, that could really undermine the authority of the group. Or not. But rather than host it all here on the microformats-discuss list, there's no reason why folks can't go off and start their own efforts, as others have (see: Social Media Club). I'm not advocating the splitting of the community, but I am advocating for folks to see to their own desires, interests and verticals and take the model, spirit and goals of microformats and strike out on your own and work to get your own microformats adopted. Because it's true, this form of dialogue doesn't scale well -- and the only way to advance is to farm out the work to distributed nodes in the system, let them focus hard and work hard, and then return back with their findings, implementations and/or adoptions. No one's stopping you. As far as I'm concerned, have at. Chris On 11/3/06, Frances Berriman wrote: > On 11/3/06, Benjamin West wrote: > > > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a > > > thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > > > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > > > > I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail > > clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of > > "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. > > I like simple solutions. :) > > To be honest, I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki > AND a forum. Selfish, selfish of me. > > > -- > Frances Berriman > http://fberriman.com > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 04:09:21 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Nov 3 04:09:26 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo microformats with Google Earth? In-Reply-To: <6A7CE540-8EAF-49BF-A92F-BA6081DDB2E1@randomchaos.com> References: <6A7CE540-8EAF-49BF-A92F-BA6081DDB2E1@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <21e770780611030409m286b769dxc60bff72b5ca7f4b@mail.gmail.com> There is also a pure DOM Javascript version by Jeremy Keith here: (you can view source to see how it works) It used hCards/hCalendar and GEO to mash-up google maps. http://austin.adactio.com/ As for my geo service (http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/) that uses an XSLT to convert the HTML into a KML/GeoRSS file which be loaded into supported mapping applications. I hope this helps get you started. If/when you have a URL please share it with the list and we can give you some feedback. And be sure to add it to the wiki under geo implementations. Thanks, -brian On 11/2/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 2, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > > Suppose I have an ordinary HTML web page. Embedded in the web page > > are > > a number of geo microformats. The web page has a link to, say, a > > Javascript file. When the web page is loaded in a browser, the > > Javascript is automatically invoked and extracts all the geo > > Microformats, mashes them with Google Earth, and then displays a > > Google > > Earth map on the browser screen with dots at the locations where the > > geo microformats indicated. > > > > For a user who doesn't want a map display, he can receive the same web > > page, but with a link to a CSS file, which displays the geo data in a > > textual form. > > > > Thus, the same data can be rendered in multiple different ways. > > > > Has anyone done this kind of thing? Care to share how you did it? > > Brian Suda has done this here: > > http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/ > > Peace, > Scott > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 04:13:10 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Nov 3 04:13:22 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo - inside our outside address? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780611030413g7292b3canf687a209ba302185@mail.gmail.com> they can appear anywhere inside or out. GEO is just another property in vCards, they are not directly associated with ADR. Infact they are NOT associated with ADR, they are associated with the person. GEO is a singular property in hCard because it does NOT represent the address, but instead the FN (person/organization). Since GEO has been abstracted into it's own microformat, it can also appear independatly of hCard, etc. -brian On 11/2/06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > Can an hCard's "geo" property appear inside an "adr"? > > > > Tittesworth Visitor Centre > > Leek, > Staffordshire > ST13 8SW; > SJ9960 > > > > or only outside it: > > > Tittesworth Visitor Centre > > Leek, > Staffordshire > ST13 8SW; > > SJ9960 > > > > ? > > -- > Andy Mabbett > Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: > > Free Our Data: > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From jeremy at adactio.com Fri Nov 3 04:58:46 2006 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Fri Nov 3 04:58:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo microformats with Google Earth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65EA1A23-88DB-431F-B5E7-EF4FCA1D743F@adactio.com> Roger Costello wrote: > Suppose I have an ordinary HTML web page. Embedded in the web page > are > a number of geo microformats. The web page has a link to, say, a > Javascript file. When the web page is loaded in a browser, the > Javascript is automatically invoked and extracts all the geo > Microformats, mashes them with Google Earth, and then displays a > Google > Earth map on the browser screen with dots at the locations where the > geo microformats indicated. Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing I want to do to encourage more people to use microformats. I've been messing around with this, as Brian said: > There is also a pure DOM Javascript version by Jeremy Keith here: (you > can view source to see how it works) It used hCards/hCalendar and GEO > to mash-up google maps. > http://austin.adactio.com/ It runs through the DOM, looks for elements with a class of "vcard", and then looks in there for abbr elements with a class of "geo" and then splits the title attribute on the semi-colon. I just did it again in a blog post, though Firefox seems to be having issues with Google's JavaScript: http://adactio.com/journal/1200/ I'd love to put this out there for anyone to use, y'know: "add geo- coded hcards to your page and automatically get a Google map: just add this script tag." But, and this is a big but, Google Maps demands that you have a unique application ID for each domain. That means anyone who wants to do something like this on their own site would have to generate an app ID at Google: that's quite a few hoops to jump through. I'll investigate other mapping providers (Yahoo!, MSN, Multimap, etc.) and see whether it would be any different. Thinking about it, demanding the use of the geo microformat might even be redundant in some countries like the USA: Google Maps (and others) have geo-lookups built into the API now, so a good adr in an hcard would be enough. Alas, living in the UK, these luxuries are not afforded to us. Thank goodness for OpenStreetMap. :-) > Care to share how you did it? Go ahead and look at the JavaScript here: http://adactio.com/extras/JavaScript/micromap.js If you have any questions, let me know. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From mikeschinkel at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 05:03:33 2006 From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel) Date: Fri Nov 3 05:03:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005301c6ff48$77cf99a0$2102fea9@Guides.local> >> I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki AND a forum. On that point I've proposed integrating the mailing list AND the forum, to give people the option of which of the two to use. So you wouldn't have to check all three. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Frances Berriman Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:15 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal On 11/3/06, Benjamin West wrote: > > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to > > a thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > > I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail > clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of > "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. I like simple solutions. :) To be honest, I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki AND a forum. Selfish, selfish of me. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mikeschinkel at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 05:03:33 2006 From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel) Date: Fri Nov 3 05:03:40 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005701c6ff48$78d37510$2102fea9@Guides.local> Colin: I'm going to reply to you point for point because, frankly after reading your reply I felt like you were dredging up excuses, not reasons and I just feel compelled to challege your assertions. To the rest of you, please feel free it ignore the rest of my email if you would rather not be bothered with this issue. I'd love to see a forum but could live without one too. But I just couldn't help myself but go into pedantic mode given his arguments. ;) >> Perhaps you should try a different email client, then? So you are suggesting that I should change the application I spend 60% of my business day which meets many other needs besides just email so that I may accomodate your dislike for a forum? I wouldn't actually think you'd want to impose that on someone else, but it rather sounds that way. >> The only reason I say Often, is because the version of Safari I'm using allows you to resize text entry elements. I don't follow your reasoning. >> I use a vBulliten based forum every day and it's torture. I really dislike forums, but the people and issues I discuss on the forum outweigh my dislike of forums. To-may-to, To-mah-to. >> Er, I know that was meant as a joke, but calling someone you're trying to win to your side a luddite isn't the best way to do so. You mean there was more than a 0.00001% chance I'd change your mind? Mailing list vs. forum is a religion just like Windows vs. Linux or Mac, REST vs SOAP, Java vs. .NET, Perl vs. Python. Conservative vs. Liberal. (US) Republican vs. Democrat. Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judiasm. And so on. There is rarely rational thought involved when discussing those kind of issues. So, I had zero expectation of converting you at all; I was making arguments for the rest of the list participants. Anywho, as has been said many times before; best not to take personal offense at what people say on the list because its far too easy to misinterpret. I've frequently had to count to 100 before typing, and I just joined recently. >> Can I *reply* from it? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, and the composing interface of my email client is much nicer. If you have an email client that accepts HTML mail and the admin configures the forum for that you can. >> Sure. User names. I hate them. Theyr'e tolerable on IRC, but in an area as permanent and public as a mailinglist/forum I'd rather have my full name associated with my (and others) posts, especially a technical discussion. It's a chore to keep track of remembering what crazy nick name corresponds to which person. I agree with you. That's why I have a policy on a forum I administer for my condo community that everyone uses real names. And I also have the same policy here: http://wiki.welldesignedurls.org/The_Rules There's nothing that says we couldn't (and shouldn't) have the same policy for a Microformats forum. >> Mailing lists also allow you to use an already established "identity" -- your email. On a forum, you have to create a completely new web presence and identity. I don't see why one would have to create a completely new identity. I almost always use "MikeSchinkel" or "Mike Schinkel" as applicable except in the rare cases I want to be anonymous. Not so helpful for "John Smith," but for most of us it's not an issue. >> You can link it to your other ones with signatures and profiles, etc, but still, it's another login and another identity. Vs. another mailing list subscription to manage. To-may-to, To-mah-to. >> The above username/identity debacle a pretty huge one, and probably my number one complaint. Maybe we are getting some where; has my "real name" policy not addressed your concern? >> BBcode is a secondary one. It's awful. I hate having to deal with [quote] tags. Chevrons for quoting is so easier. Plain text email for the win. If you use the "quote" button instead of the "reply" button vBulletin quotes it for you. That said you can always use the same style quoting on a forum as you do in email if that your style. I find quoting in email much more or a PITA because I have to quote every line instead of just the begin and end of the quote. And if the person q