From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Nov 1 00:59:35 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Nov 1 01:01:34 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610310840p162fc9f8q1a79a023f5d302e1@mail.gmail.com> <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com>, Charles Iliya Krempeaux writes >> >http://www.rorkvell.de/tech/dc >> > >> >What do you thing about that idea? >> >> It's not clear whether what you suggest is a proposal, or already >> accepted practice. > >I believe he's thinking out load... and asking us what we think. Then that ought to be made clear. As things stands, those pages could be read by a novice as a "how to" guide. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 03:48:15 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Nov 1 03:48:21 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <61848334-E132-4508-9F90-14248F381FBF@westciv.com> <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> Message-ID: <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/06, John Allsopp wrote: > Colin, > > > I don't like forums because I have to go to a website to use them. > > RSS anyone :-) I love my forum changes popping up in my feedreader. > Compared with older, non RSS based forums, it has definitely made a > world of difference. --- we talked awhile ago how to get this Mailing list via RSS[1] Depending on your feed reader you could filter by topic/keyword etc. This might help with people only interested in a specific term to keep the signal to noise ratio down. -brian [1] - http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006136.html -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From manuel.gonzalez.noriega at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 03:49:41 2006 From: manuel.gonzalez.noriega at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Manuel_Gonz=E1lez_Noriega?=) Date: Wed Nov 1 03:49:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <84ce626f0610310840p162fc9f8q1a79a023f5d302e1@mail.gmail.com> <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: On 31/10/06, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > Hi folks, > > i am currently working on a kind of "HowTo" page on how to use Dublin Core in > a way very similar to microformats and combined with microformats. Currently > only the german version is mainly complete. The translation into english is > still work in progress. But at least, from what is already online, you might > get the idea: > > http://www.rorkvell.de/tech/dc Hi Siegfried, just so you know, there is already a quite adanced effort to create a Dublin Core Microformats proposal. http://www.webposible.com/blog/?p=137 [ES] Maybe you can contact its author, Alejandro Gonzalo Bravo Garc?a and look for ways to collaborate: alejandrogbravo [at] yahoo [dot] es -- Manuel http://linkja.com * un agregador de tendencias http://simplelogica.net http://simplelogica.net/logicola From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 06:06:47 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 06:07:01 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <61848334-E132-4508-9F90-14248F381FBF@westciv.com> <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com> On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:48 AM, Brian Suda wrote: > --- we talked awhile ago how to get this Mailing list via RSS[1] > Depending on your feed reader you could filter by topic/keyword etc. You can also filter RSS with any feed reader by using this proxy service: http://feedrinse.com/ As for how to reply, people can subscribe to the list and disable message delivery, allowing them to reply via email but read via RSS or the HTML archives or whatever. Peace, Scott From qidydl at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 08:16:17 2006 From: qidydl at gmail.com (David Osolkowski) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:16:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610311933.21683.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <46DB176F-E8FA-41C4-9F8C-D46D51642EE1@randomchaos.com> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: You can't use vote-for for this, because vote-for already has defined semantics; it represents a vote that has been cast, not the ability to cast a vote. It's already possible to use vote-for in both rel and rev; one indicates that the current page is a vote for the link destination, the other indicates that the link destination is a vote for the current page. I think the latter is not be considered authoritative. If you want to say this page provides a polling place, chose an attribute value that makes sense for that. Design for humans first, after all. Using the previously suggested scenario, "Page A is a place where you can create a vote for Page B, i.e. a polling place", you could have these links: On page A: The page being voted on On page B: Vote for this page here The first link says "the current page (page A) is a poll for the destination of this link (page B)." The second link says "the linked page (page A) is a poll for this page (page B)." I'm not suggesting "poll" as the actual value to use, however; at least some research should be done to see if there's a widely-used term that would be more appropriate. - David On 10/31/06, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > Hmmm, why not? Microformats do already define, that the XXX attribute with the > value of YYY does have meaning ZZZ. So in this case microformats has already > defined that the rev attribute with the value "vote-for" has some special > meaning. Why not define that the rel attribut with the value "vote-for" has > another meaning? From joel at messagr.com Wed Nov 1 08:35:33 2006 From: joel at messagr.com (Joel Selvadurai) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:35:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have come up before. I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. Thoughts? Regards, Joel. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 08:57:22 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:57:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <84ce626f0610311030g4760c488r1e6dbde9d55e9ef2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011757.23162.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Dienstag, 31. Oktober 2006 23:07 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > That seems sensible - but are "dotted" class names allowed, in HTML or > in style sheets? Sorry if i can answer only in the evening hours here in germany :) dotted class names are allowed. But it si somewhat tricky if you want to use them as selectors in css stylesheets. On the page mentioned i gave an idea how to do that. Unfortunately the IE, at least older versions, do not understand that. But that is out of scope. It is not essential beeing able to style these elements. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 08:58:19 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 08:58:25 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <200611011758.20091.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Dienstag, 31. Oktober 2006 23:09 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > It's not clear whether what you suggest is a proposal, or already > accepted practice. Well, all the keywords are indeed accepted practice. But the use cases are new, so a proposal. It's just using an old standard in new ways. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:00:00 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:00:13 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <21e770780610311419m2ab7f5e0j73c155f97fef7cd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <21e770780610311419m2ab7f5e0j73c155f97fef7cd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011800.00911.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Dienstag, 31. Oktober 2006 23:19 schrieb Brian Suda: > Just an FYI: you are independantly approaching the same result as > "Embedded RDF"[1,2]. Probably best to not reinvent the wheel. Embedded RDF is nice, but out of scope for this idea. This idea is using the microformats ideas and methods and best practices to add new use cases to embedding Dublin Core in html (and xhtml). Without need of rdf. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:02:48 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:02:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610312327x37a2a189s983050be589cc211@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610312327x37a2a189s983050be589cc211@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011802.48639.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 08:27 schrieb Charles Iliya Krempeaux: > > That seems sensible - but are "dotted" class names allowed, in HTML or > > in style sheets? > > I think you'd need to do it with something like this... > > .DC\.title { > /* CSS here */ > } I already gave a hint on the page. The best method would be to use: *[class="DC.title"] { .. } Unfortunately older IEs do not understand that. But the purpose of the document is not about how to style the elements :) Html classes and IDs are not mainly ment as vehicle for styling with css. They are meant for adding/enhancing the semantics. From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 09:03:28 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:03:32 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780611010903v296f52acv9ae5f304a04cf1e0@mail.gmail.com> There have been attempts at documenting ToDos in the wild. I think your description of an action sounds like a todo. http://microformats.org/wiki/htodo Feel free to document your finds as well. -brian On 11/1/06, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > Hi, > > I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have > come up before. > > I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an > action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action > may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. > > Thoughts? > > Regards, > Joel. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:03:36 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:03:40 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011803.36501.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 08:28 schrieb Charles Iliya Krempeaux: > > It's not clear whether what you suggest is a proposal, or already > > accepted practice. > > I believe he's thinking out load... and asking us what we think. Indeed :) You get best ideas in dialogue. From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:05:58 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:06:03 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <84ce626f0610312328w48d9c190v3c00522edca5532@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611011805.59062.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 09:59 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > Then that ought to be made clear. As things stands, those pages could be > read by a novice as a "how to" guide. Well, it is sort of "HowTo". And it is a proposal. Although very closely based on a very old standard. It's just a proposal for new use cases. Logically developed from the microformats proposals/ideas and the already existing semantics from that standard. You may think of it as an RFC (Request For Comment) From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:12:12 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:12:16 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Just an idea In-Reply-To: References: <200610311850.48733.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <200611011812.12644.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 12:49 schrieb Manuel Gonz?lez Noriega: > just so you know, there is already a quite adanced effort to create a > Dublin Core Microformats proposal. That is great, i didn't know that. > > http://www.webposible.com/blog/?p=137 [ES] > > Maybe you can contact its author, Alejandro Gonzalo Bravo Garc?a and > look for ways to collaborate: alejandrogbravo [at] yahoo [dot] es I just wrote a mail. From costello at mitre.org Wed Nov 1 09:18:10 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:15:07 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very interesting idea Andy. Thanks. Okay, now we have three design approaches to marking up this text: John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... The three designs are: Design #1 John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... The value of "fn" is the concatenation of the "value" subproperties: fn = concat('John ', 'Public') = John Public Notice the space after John. This enables the fn value to be formatted. Design #2 John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... The value of "fn" is the concatenation of the "value" subproperties: fn = concat('John', ' ', 'Public') = John Public Notice that now there is a concatenation of three values, the middle being a "spacer value." Design #3 John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... This third approach completely sidesteps the need for the "value" subproperty. Which design is best practice? What are the pros and cons to each design? /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andy Mabbett Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 4:34 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In message , "Costello, Roger L." writes > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... I would mark that up as: John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 09:15:41 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:15:45 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 17:16 schrieb David Osolkowski: > You can't use vote-for for this, because vote-for already has defined > semantics; it represents a vote that has been cast, not the ability to > cast a vote. It's already possible to use vote-for in both rel and > rev; one indicates that the current page is a vote for the link No, rel is explicitely excluded. And exactly that is what i don't think of beeing adequate. If there already exists a good semantic for rel="vote-for", that's just fine. > On page A: The page being voted on > On page B: Vote for this page here What about ... ? From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 09:16:19 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:16:30 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:35 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > Hi, > > I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have > come up before. > > I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an > action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action > may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. > > Thoughts? It sounds like what you're describing is contact information, which is covered by hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard Specifically, the 'tel' and 'email' properties cover your examples. You can embed hCard within hResume. Peace, Scott From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 09:52:56 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:53:05 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2006, at 11:15 AM, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 17:16 schrieb David Osolkowski: >> You can't use vote-for for this, because vote-for already has defined >> semantics; it represents a vote that has been cast, not the >> ability to >> cast a vote. It's already possible to use vote-for in both rel and >> rev; one indicates that the current page is a vote for the link > No, rel is explicitely excluded. And exactly that is what i don't > think of > beeing adequate. If there already exists a good semantic for > rel="vote-for", > that's just fine. rel="vote-for", by the definition in the HTML spec, can only mean the reverse of what rev="vote-for" means. It can't mean anything else. There is already an established meaning for rev="vote-for", and the reverse of that doesn't really communicate anything useful. There's an explanation of this here: >> On page A: The page being voted on >> On page B: Vote for this page here > > What about ... ? I believe that means the page containing this link is voting for a JavaScript function. Probably not what you want to communicate. Peace, Scott From rob at sanchothefat.com Wed Nov 1 10:10:24 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:10:33 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4548E310.3020007@sanchothefat.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:35 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have >> come up before. >> >> I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an >> action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action >> may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. >> >> Thoughts? > > It sounds like what you're describing is contact information, which is > covered by hCard: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard > > Specifically, the 'tel' and 'email' properties cover your examples. > You can embed hCard within hResume. > > Peace, > Scott > > I'd agree with Scott there, 'call' and 'email' in hcard are more like a choice or just information presented to the reader, actions suggest something you're supposed to do on a page or what a particular page itself is supposed to do. The
attribute "action" covers that. Say you have an email form, perhaps nested in your hcard instead of a mailto, this will already have an "action", namely 'contact' or 'send-mail' or whatever the name of the page is that the form posts to. I can't think of a way to make your email address exportable doing it that way though, unless you can have action="mailto:foo@bar.com" but that just seems silly. Not to mention the w3c spec doesn't want to touch action="anything-other-than-an-http-uri" with a barge pole. Rob O From qidydl at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 10:23:39 2006 From: qidydl at gmail.com (David Osolkowski) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:23:51 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <200611011815.41849.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: On 11/1/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > There is already an established meaning for rev="vote-for", and the > reverse of that doesn't really communicate anything useful. I don't know about that; I could certainly imagine, say, a proposal asking people to vote by making blog posts and linking, and then the proposal has a list showing who voted. It shouldn't be *authoritative*, because only the person casting the vote can say for sure that they voted a certain way. > > What about ... ? > > I believe that means the page containing this link is voting for a > JavaScript function. Probably not what you want to communicate. Hmm, isn't that backwards? somevotingfunction() is a vote-for the current page. See the FAQ entry that you yourself linked. I very much doubt that such a link makes sense, though. - David From juth at loc.gov Wed Nov 1 10:38:31 2006 From: juth at loc.gov (Justin Thorp) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:37:51 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions Message-ID: Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. Cheers, Justin Thorp ****************** Justin Thorp Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives Library of Congress e - juth@loc.gov p - 202/707-9541 >>> rob@sanchothefat.com 11/01/06 1:10 PM >>> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:35 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm new here so forgive me for mentioning something which may have >> come up before. >> >> I was thinking that there needs to be some sort of microformat for an >> action. For example, a hResume may contain an action, and the action >> may be 'call' or 'email' specifying phone number email address. >> >> Thoughts? > > It sounds like what you're describing is contact information, which is > covered by hCard: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard > > Specifically, the 'tel' and 'email' properties cover your examples. > You can embed hCard within hResume. > > Peace, > Scott > > I'd agree with Scott there, 'call' and 'email' in hcard are more like a choice or just information presented to the reader, actions suggest something you're supposed to do on a page or what a particular page itself is supposed to do. The attribute "action" covers that. Say you have an email form, perhaps nested in your hcard instead of a mailto, this will already have an "action", namely 'contact' or 'send-mail' or whatever the name of the page is that the form posts to. I can't think of a way to make your email address exportable doing it that way though, unless you can have action="mailto:foo@bar.com" but that just seems silly. Not to mention the w3c spec doesn't want to touch action="anything-other-than-an-http-uri" with a barge pole. Rob O _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Nov 1 10:42:19 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:43:49 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <61848334-E132-4508-9F90-14248F381FBF@westciv.com> <4C37C316-061C-4A94-B8A0-7A4F5171A8B8@westciv.com> <21e770780611010348q4c0d11e0md8d462153e022777@mail.gmail.com> <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: In message <271912BA-6F0E-40FD-A143-5410B5CBB8E5@randomchaos.com>, Scott Reynen writes >On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:48 AM, Brian Suda wrote: > >> we talked awhile ago how to get this Mailing list via RSS >> Depending on your feed reader you could filter by topic/keyword etc. >As for how to reply, people can subscribe to the list and disable >message delivery, allowing them to reply via email but read via RSS or >the HTML archives or whatever. I still feel that that's far too complicated, for the sort of people I've referred to. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Nov 1 10:55:13 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Nov 1 10:56:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , "Costello, Roger L." writes >Design #3 > >John > will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... >What are the pros and cons to each design? A "pro" for #3 is that users can tell who John is on the first mention - and, subsequently, the he's not the John Smith referred to elsewhere. It also side-steps the concatenation-including-a-space issue in your other examples. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From ryan at technorati.com Wed Nov 1 11:13:58 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:14:02 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97DEB9FF-41D8-410E-AAAE-016200EF829D@technorati.com> On Oct 29, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Design #1 > > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... > > ... > > Design #2 > > > John > > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... > > ... > > Which is best practice - design #1 or design #2? Honestly, they're both a bit ugly. Were you surprised that the value excerpting didn't put a space between the values? I'm guessing that the most common usage for value excerpting would require spaces between the concatenated values. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Wed Nov 1 11:18:03 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:18:12 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] xFolk use question - Using "taggedlink" inside "description" element In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote: > A question about xFolk:[1] Is it invalid to include the TAGGEDLINK > inside the DESCRIPTION, and as a value of the same class attribute > as used for the XFOLKENTRY? > > My example code: > >
>

Joi Ito asks, Is YouTube "Web 2.0" as a follow-up to > a post by Lawrence Lessig, "The Ethics of Web 2.0." > Lessig specifically differentiates between "true sharing" and "fake > sharing." For Lessig, YouTube is a "fake sharing" site because it > does not allow users to download content; all traffic is directed > back to YouTube, thus YouTube, not the users, essentially controls > the content.

>
You can put the taggedLink inside the description, but you can't put the description class name on the same element as the 'xfolkentry'[1]. -ryan 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#nesting-properties (though that page is for hcard, it applies to everything) From ryan at technorati.com Wed Nov 1 11:28:20 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:28:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> <200610311933.21683.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <46DB176F-E8FA-41C4-9F8C-D46D51642EE1@randomchaos.com> <200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <41A472E1-0459-4260-A249-BA24E5D3ACEB@technorati.com> On Oct 31, 2006, at 11:17 AM, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > It's not about redefining the rel or rev attribute. It's about > redefining > the "vote-for" attribute value if used with the rel attibute. We have some significant problems with using @rel=~'vote-for', which IMO, keep us from ever using it: 1. The original spec of vote-links erroneously specified that the vote-links link relationships should be on the @rel attribute. There's content on the web (which will never go away) that uses this construct. So, using @rel='vote-for' is not compatible with past specifications. 2. Using @rel and @rev for different meanings is not future proof. It is highly likely that future versions of HTML will drop @rev. -ryan From siegfried at rorkvell.de Wed Nov 1 11:42:23 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:42:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for In-Reply-To: References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael> Message-ID: <200611012042.23681.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 19:23 schrieb David Osolkowski: > > > What about ... ? > > > > I believe that means the page containing this link is voting for a > > JavaScript function. Probably not what you want to communicate. > > Hmm, isn't that backwards? somevotingfunction() is a vote-for the > current page. See the FAQ entry that you yourself linked. I very > much doubt that such a link makes sense, though. Well, at least i know many examples saying exactly that, but without using rel="vote-for". There are many pages out there trying to make the visitors vote for them. I dont' think that i myself will ever do something like that, i never will beg vor any votes! But who am i to disallow that for anybody else? So, if that makes sense or not is up to the author of that page, not up to me or the microformats team. The microformats team simply should define the semantics of that. From rob at sanchothefat.com Wed Nov 1 11:59:38 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Wed Nov 1 11:59:41 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Justin Thorp wrote: > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just misunderstood. > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the event in question? > Cheers, > Justin Thorp From juth at loc.gov Wed Nov 1 12:48:02 2006 From: juth at loc.gov (Justin Thorp) Date: Wed Nov 1 12:47:11 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions Message-ID: I think that either should work. A lot of events or things that I would put on my calendar have events that are associate with them in some way. Maybe a professor could mark up his course outline with a ToDo microformat. The user could then easily grab the ToDos and load them into his/her Outlook or TadaList. -justin ****************** Justin Thorp Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives Library of Congress e - juth@loc.gov p - 202/707-9541 >>> rob@sanchothefat.com 11/01/06 2:59 PM >>> Justin Thorp wrote: > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the event in question? From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 13:25:24 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 13:25:39 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] To-do (Was: Actions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <820E484A-8E35-46A8-9310-3A502760B649@randomchaos.com> On Nov 1, 2006, at 2:48 PM, Justin Thorp wrote: > A lot of events or things that I would put on my calendar have > events that are associate with them in some way. > > Maybe a professor could mark up his course outline with a ToDo > microformat. The user could then easily grab the ToDos and load > them into his/her Outlook or TadaList. If you're interested in a to-do microformat, you might want to start documenting examples of online to-do list markup and existing to-do list formats. For an example of the latter, there's a to-do component in vCalendar which was never incorporated into hCalendar. See: Peace, Scott From cayle.graumann at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 13:32:13 2006 From: cayle.graumann at gmail.com (Cayle Graumann) Date: Wed Nov 1 13:32:18 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup project management data using microformats on the web that could be automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > misunderstood. > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > event in question? In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event also. > > > Cheers, > > Justin Thorp > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > Cayle Missouri From juth at loc.gov Wed Nov 1 13:57:03 2006 From: juth at loc.gov (Justin Thorp) Date: Wed Nov 1 13:56:36 2006 Subject: starting a brainstorming page - Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions Message-ID: I am busy until later this evening but I would be happy to take a first pass at a todo microformat brainstorming page, unless you want to. Cheers, Justin ****************** Justin Thorp Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives Library of Congress e - juth@loc.gov p - 202/707-9541 >>> cayle.graumann@gmail.com 11/01/06 4:32 PM >>> Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup project management data using microformats on the web that could be automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > misunderstood. > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > event in question? In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event also. > > > Cheers, > > Justin Thorp > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > Cayle Missouri _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Nov 1 14:59:54 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Nov 1 15:00:07 2006 Subject: starting a brainstorming page - Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95B0AA6B-AB9C-4A17-8AE1-A714C8662180@randomchaos.com> On Nov 1, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Justin Thorp wrote: > I am busy until later this evening but I would be happy to take a > first pass at a todo microformat brainstorming page, unless you > want to. Brainstorming tends to be more productive when it's based on research. Otherwise, you're likely to reinvent a few wheels. Please consider filling out todo-examples and todo-formating a bit before todo-brainstorming. See: http://microformats.org/wiki/process Peace, Scott From rob at sanchothefat.com Wed Nov 1 15:30:28 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Wed Nov 1 15:30:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] To-do (Was: Actions) In-Reply-To: <820E484A-8E35-46A8-9310-3A502760B649@randomchaos.com> References: <820E484A-8E35-46A8-9310-3A502760B649@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <45492E14.2080702@sanchothefat.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 1, 2006, at 2:48 PM, Justin Thorp wrote: > >> A lot of events or things that I would put on my calendar have events >> that are associate with them in some way. >> >> Maybe a professor could mark up his course outline with a ToDo >> microformat. The user could then easily grab the ToDos and load them >> into his/her Outlook or TadaList. > > If you're interested in a to-do microformat, you might want to start > documenting examples of online to-do list markup and existing to-do > list formats. For an example of the latter, there's a to-do component > in vCalendar which was never incorporated into hCalendar. See: > > > > Peace, > Scott > > Cool, cheers Scott, I'm going to make a start getting a few examples together in answer to the two questions in that section. I've only used basecamp and mozilla sunbird for this kind of thing before so I've got a ton of reading to do first but essentially the vtodos it exports via iCal can reference milestones/events or act as standalone todo lists. I'm not sure if this works by embedding vtodos in the vevent or using an include method for referencing yet. This is where my research is starting but the page has a bare minumum of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICalendar#To-do_.28VTODO.29 Can anyone suggest better resources? I can foresee vtodos and the little extras they offer embedded in a web page and enabled by some PHP/AJAX combo because by definition they need to be dynamic e.g. status changes. Rob O From jeremyboggs at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 16:04:21 2006 From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs) Date: Wed Nov 1 16:04:02 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: <97DEB9FF-41D8-410E-AAAE-016200EF829D@technorati.com> References: <97DEB9FF-41D8-410E-AAAE-016200EF829D@technorati.com> Message-ID: <968C2CAF-3239-4B29-A994-30A962994CB2@gmail.com> "Costello, Roger L." writes: > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... While this is more an editorial suggestion than a microformat suggestion, it seems the best solution would be: John Public will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about... In general, it isn't good writing practice to mention someone's first name in a sentence, and then their last name in a later sentence (and vice versa). Even if, with hCard, we could combine the first and last names into one contact card, it isn't clear just from the text itself that "John" and "Mr. Public" are the same person; It would be jarring to the reader. With the change above, the microformat parser can easily grab the hCard for "John Public" AND the reader will know that "Mr. Public" is in fact "John Public." Now, I understand the microformat question raised (it is very interesting one, I might add), but it seems like the best solution in this instance would be to avoid the problem to begin with as much as possible. Are the instances on the web, Roger, that the scenario you posed to the list is in being used? Or was this more a hypothetical question? Best, Jeremy Boggs From bewest at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 20:10:21 2006 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Wed Nov 1 20:10:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com> > It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed. Seems like a lot has changed to me. Lots of people are working on the wiki. From cayle.graumann at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 22:28:01 2006 From: cayle.graumann at gmail.com (Cayle Graumann) Date: Wed Nov 1 22:28:07 2006 Subject: starting a brainstorming page - Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Justin, I've finished reading the iCalendar spec (RC2445) and it looks like the spec prohibits nesting of vtodo's either inside of a vevent or another vtodo, and it prohibits nesting a vevent in a vtodo. The spec allows a vtodo to be related to another vtodo, a valarm or a vjournal and maybe to a vevent (the spec is unclear on this - under vevent it says it can be related to a todo, but under todo it lists all the others and leaves vevent off), through the "related" property. A vTodo is essentially just a vevent with more properties both at the conceptual and fieldname levels. So much is the same between vevent and vtodo that it makes me wonder why they didn't just add the few different fields to vevents rather than put them vTodo. They may have been trying to make the parsing simpler or maintain compatibility with an earlier implementation, I guess. The other major thing different between them is that a vTodo is free/busy neutral, while a vEvent can be used in the free/busy operation. I guess that the thought is that a vTodo can either be done or not done and that it doesn't preclude you from and doing something else. The precedent has already been set for extending the iCalendar spec in hCalendar, with the recommended use of embedded hCard instead of simple strings for ATTENDEE, CONTACT, and ORGANIZER. a side by side comparison of vevent and vtodo: begin: vevent/begin:vtodo class/class /completed created/created description/description dtstart/dtstart geo/geo last-mod/last-mod location/location organizer/organizer /percent priority/priority dtstamp/dtstamp seq/seq status/status summary/summary transp/ uid/uid url/url recurid/recurid /due dtend/ duration/duration attach/attach attendee/attendee categories/categories comment/comment contact/contact exdate/exdate exrule/exrule rstatus/rstatus related/related resources/resources rdate/rdate rrule/rrule x-prop/xprop end vevent/end vtodo As you can see, the vtodo adds complete, percent, and due to vevent, and drops transp and dtend. I think we should for a first try take hCalendar vEvent as authoritative and build from there. After that I think that I'll take a crack at defining the rstatus and related properties to implement the 7 or so relationships I emailed earlier. I've been meaning to get a trial basecamp account and test it for work anyway, so I'll see what kind of vTodo's it exports. MS Project doesn't directly support vTodo that I'm aware of, but it does have an XML output which I was going to see how well it might map to vTodo's. In fact one of my goals in this is to be able to transform that MS Project XML into whatever we come up with, either that or query the Project database directly which may actually be easier. Cayle, Missouri On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: > Justin, > > I let you take a first crack at it as I'm pretty busy myself with > work and won't be able to get to anything past re-reading in depth the > iCalendar RFC until Saturday Morning (Central US Time). It looks like > we have our work cut out for us though. At the outset, I think we > will need use cases showing embedding both hCalendar events in hTodo > structures and hTodo structures in hCalendar. > > For my scheduling data, I think it would be good to have a standard > way to say the following: > > 1) whether a todo item depends on an outcome of another todo item. > (todo conditional branching) > 2) an item must be complete before another begins (tail-head dependency) > 3) must be complete before another can complete (tail-slide dependency) > 4) must be complete at the same time another is complete. (tail-tail dependency) > 5) must be started at the same time as another item. (head-head dependency) > 6) must be begun, but not necessarily complete, before another can > start (head-slide dependency). > 7) must be done at exactly the same time as another (head-head > tail-tail dependency) > > I don't yet know whether the iCalendar spec already has a defined > approach for these kind of relationships between todo items. If it > does, great! and we should use that, if not, then I guess we'll have > some more thinking to do. > > Cheers to you too, > > Cayle, > Missouri > > On 11/1/06, Justin Thorp wrote: > > I am busy until later this evening but I would be happy to take a first pass at a todo microformat brainstorming page, unless you want to. > > > > Cheers, > > Justin > > > > > > > > ****************** > > Justin Thorp > > Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives > > Library of Congress > > e - juth@loc.gov > > p - 202/707-9541 > > > > >>> cayle.graumann@gmail.com 11/01/06 4:32 PM >>> > > Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and > > calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup > > project management data using microformats on the web that could be > > automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as > > potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. > > > > On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > > > > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > > > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > > > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > > > misunderstood. > > > > > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > > > > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > > > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > > > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > > > event in question? > > > > In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the > > completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a > > list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event > > also. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Justin Thorp > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > Cayle > > Missouri > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Nov 2 01:15:15 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Nov 2 01:17:10 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included! In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <8ad71be30611012010w1755b8fq479ebd5dec76b5a6@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin West writes >> It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed. > >Seems like a lot has changed to me. Lots of people are working on the wiki. You snipped my quote of my original post: >>>I've just been introducing a colleague to the concept of hCalendar; >>and >>>referred her to: >>> >>> http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar >>> >>>She was baffled; not lest because, though the page had a treatise on >>>"Semantic XHTML Design Principles", it didn't list the hCalendar >>>fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional! Here's the "diff" from the 'wiki', from when I wrote that, 'til now: Perhaps you could point where in the small amount of new material the hCalendar fields are listed, and where those which are optional are identified? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From joel at messagr.com Thu Nov 2 02:07:12 2006 From: joel at messagr.com (Joel Selvadurai) Date: Thu Nov 2 02:07:15 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: Since I opened these can of worms I think I should contribute again at this point. I had in mind the idea of microformats interacting with each other. So, for exmaple, if a hJob would meet a hResume in the ether, then there would be an action associated to each one, like email the owner of the Resume that this particular job is a good match. That is what I meant by an action. I think the idea of microformats interaction with each other is an interesting one. On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: > Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and > calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup > project management data using microformats on the web that could be > automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as > potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. > > On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > > > > Justin Thorp wrote: > > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > > > > > > > > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I just > > misunderstood. > > > > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > > > > > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the tickets for the rock concert. > > > > > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and import into my ToDo list. > > > > > > > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give them a > > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time-frame (or > > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to the > > event in question? > > In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the > completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a > list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event > also. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Justin Thorp > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > Cayle > Missouri > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From timber at lava.net Thu Nov 2 02:24:16 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Thu Nov 2 02:24:20 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> How would such a meeting occur? It seems to me like this would only happen when an end user cross references hJobs and hResumes. Plus, the idea of hJobs floating out there searching for hResumes to email sounds really, really freaky :D -Colin On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:07 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > Since I opened these can of worms I think I should contribute again at > this point. I had in mind the idea of microformats interacting with > each other. So, for exmaple, if a hJob would meet a hResume in the > ether, then there would be an action associated to each one, like > email the owner of the Resume that this particular job is a good > match. That is what I meant by an action. I think the idea of > microformats interaction with each other is an interesting one. > > On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: >> Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and >> calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup >> project management data using microformats on the web that could be >> automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as >> potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. >> >> On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: >> > >> > Justin Thorp wrote: >> > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something >> that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the >> page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. >> > > >> > > >> > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I >> > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a >> > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I >> just >> > misunderstood. >> > >> > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. >> > > >> > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation >> where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the >> tickets for the rock concert. >> > > >> > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar >> that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me >> to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and >> import into my ToDo list. >> > > >> > >> > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give >> them a >> > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time- >> frame (or >> > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to >> the >> > event in question? >> >> In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the >> completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a >> list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event >> also. >> >> > >> > > Cheers, >> > > Justin Thorp >> > _______________________________________________ >> > microformats-discuss mailing list >> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > >> >> Cayle >> Missouri >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 02:33:49 2006 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Nov 2 02:33:53 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> Message-ID: On 11/2/06, Colin Barrett wrote: > How would such a meeting occur? It seems to me like this would only > happen when an end user cross references hJobs and hResumes. > > Plus, the idea of hJobs floating out there searching for hResumes to > email sounds really, really freaky :D Self-aware microformats? oooo! Anyway. This seems all a bit out of scope, unless I'm misunderstanding. Sounds like you want to write some nice software to cross-reference stuff marked up as resumes and job listings and notify the owners of either items, using their contact information. Although this would be cool for many situations, this is a software designers job - not a microformats. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From joel at messagr.com Thu Nov 2 03:06:00 2006 From: joel at messagr.com (Joel Selvadurai) Date: Thu Nov 2 03:06:05 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> Message-ID: I think that services in the future won't be consumed through a web page. They will just happen, the outcome of which will be dictated by an action (or set of rules). It is this sort of 'action' that I'm trying to get at. On 11/2/06, Colin Barrett wrote: > How would such a meeting occur? It seems to me like this would only > happen when an end user cross references hJobs and hResumes. > > Plus, the idea of hJobs floating out there searching for hResumes to > email sounds really, really freaky :D > > -Colin > > On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:07 AM, Joel Selvadurai wrote: > > > Since I opened these can of worms I think I should contribute again at > > this point. I had in mind the idea of microformats interacting with > > each other. So, for exmaple, if a hJob would meet a hResume in the > > ether, then there would be an action associated to each one, like > > email the owner of the Resume that this particular job is a good > > match. That is what I meant by an action. I think the idea of > > microformats interaction with each other is an interesting one. > > > > On 11/1/06, Cayle Graumann wrote: > >> Interesting discussion here. I was thinking about todo lists and > >> calendar events myself as I'm trying to figure out how to markup > >> project management data using microformats on the web that could be > >> automatically scraped to generate Gantt chart-like output, as well as > >> potentially being pulled into a program on a PDA. > >> > >> On 11/1/06, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > >> > > >> > Justin Thorp wrote: > >> > > Why does an action or todo microformat have to be something > >> that you do on the page? Maybe I want to pull the ToDo out of the > >> page and put it on my 30Boxes ToDo list or Outlook or something. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > It doesn't, you're right but I was ignoring the to-do idea when I > >> > replied, I was referring to the actions you can carry out with a > >> > microformatted page like exporting the uF or emailing someone, I > >> just > >> > misunderstood. > >> > > >> > > You should be able to nest an hCard inside of a ToDo. > >> > > > >> > > I can see this type of microformat being helpful in a situation > >> where I have information for a rock concert but I have to buy the > >> tickets for the rock concert. > >> > > > >> > > So while the event information is marked up in an hCalendar > >> that I can download, there is also a ToDo marked up that tells me > >> to buy a ticket and where I can buy it. I could grab this info and > >> import into my ToDo list. > >> > > > >> > > >> > Would these todo 'actions' be marked up within the event to give > >> them a > >> > deadline? or a completely separate list that has its own time- > >> frame (or > >> > none at all) and perhaps uses something like .include to refer to > >> the > >> > event in question? > >> > >> In my case, I have a series of calendar events that lead up to the > >> completion of one TODO item, but I could see where you might have a > >> list of TODO items that need to be completed at one calendar event > >> also. > >> > >> > > >> > > Cheers, > >> > > Justin Thorp > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > microformats-discuss mailing list > >> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > >> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > >> > > >> > >> Cayle > >> Missouri > >> _______________________________________________ > >> microformats-discuss mailing list > >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org > >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From costello at mitre.org Thu Nov 2 03:46:00 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Thu Nov 2 03:44:18 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: <968C2CAF-3239-4B29-A994-30A962994CB2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jeremy. I am creating a tutorial on hCard. The approach I am taking is to show some HTML text (made up), and then describe how to mark it up using hCard properties. One point I want to make in my tutorial is that marking up the existing HTML text with hCard properties won't impact the existing HTML presentation. /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Boggs Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:04 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty "Costello, Roger L." writes: > > John > will be our speaker. Mr. > Public > will talk about ... While this is more an editorial suggestion than a microformat suggestion, it seems the best solution would be: John Public will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about... In general, it isn't good writing practice to mention someone's first name in a sentence, and then their last name in a later sentence (and vice versa). Even if, with hCard, we could combine the first and last names into one contact card, it isn't clear just from the text itself that "John" and "Mr. Public" are the same person; It would be jarring to the reader. With the change above, the microformat parser can easily grab the hCard for "John Public" AND the reader will know that "Mr. Public" is in fact "John Public." Now, I understand the microformat question raised (it is very interesting one, I might add), but it seems like the best solution in this instance would be to avoid the problem to begin with as much as possible. Are the instances on the web, Roger, that the scenario you posed to the list is in being used? Or was this more a hypothetical question? Best, Jeremy Boggs _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From costello at mitre.org Thu Nov 2 03:55:58 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Thu Nov 2 03:53:41 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good point Andy. I agree. I tend to think that Design #3 should be considered Best Practice. A thought occurred to me with regards to the Design #3 approach. Can I add information that didn't exist in the original HTML text? Suppose that this is the original HTML text: John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... And here is how I mark it up (using Design #3): John will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... Notice that I added information that was not in the original HTML text, namely, his middle initial and his suffix. Is this reasonable? legal? good practice? best practice? terrible practice? Thoughts? /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andy Mabbett Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 1:55 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In message , "Costello, Roger L." writes >Design #3 > >John > will be our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... >What are the pros and cons to each design? A "pro" for #3 is that users can tell who John is on the first mention - and, subsequently, the he's not the John Smith referred to elsewhere. It also side-steps the concatenation-including-a-space issue in your other examples. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mikeschinkel at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 05:37:42 2006 From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel) Date: Thu Nov 2 05:37:49 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> Message-ID: <002101c6fe84$133f6de0$0702a8c0@Guides.local> I'm going to reply to several responses at once. >> Why not create a new mailing list for each proposal, once it's >> reached a certain stage? Ryan King>> Because that's more administrative overhead for Ryan King>> admin's who're already overloaded. The problem is that the current Microformat process is not at all scalable. It is much like having you managing a file containing all domain names, and anytime someone wants a new domain name or subdomain, or make a change, they have to get your time and attention. I think we all know what a boon DNS was. We should look to benefit from prior knowledge and organize the Microformat inititive so it can scale. Frances Berriman>> I agree. Creating a list for each proposal Frances Berriman>> seems unmanageable and would result in Frances Berriman>> a lot of dead lists eventually. It all depends on how you manage the process. If you make new lists willy-nilly, yes. But if we look for a group of people that are serious about creating an Microformat ontology for a vertical area and we have obviously committted people, then I see no reason why most lists would not end up thriving. Frances Berriman>> Personally, I quite like watching the general Frances Berriman>> chatter about various proposals - rather Frances Berriman>> than having to subscribe to each individual Frances Berriman>> one. Maybe you do, but I'm already maxed trying to watch this list with the traffic is has; if it doubled, trippled, or was an order of magnitude more, there is no way I could ever deal with it. And I have to believe the same would be true for you. Andy Mabbett>> For example, several academic and professional Andy Mabbett>> taxonomists have told me in e-mail that they Andy Mabbett>> would be interested in the species proposal, Andy Mabbett>> (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna), Andy Mabbett>> but donot have the time to follow a general Andy Mabbett>> mailing list; indeed, a couple asked me specifically Andy Mabbett>> if I would set up a separate mailing list for the subject. Andy Mabbett>> How do you suggest that we engage such people? I'm 100% with Andy on this. Delegating authority for vertical microformats is the only way to scale the initiative, and this initiative, and this initiative could explode in a very good way if we just give it the right mechanisms and reduce the friction. John Allsopp>> I reiterate my suggestion for a "modern" forum like John Allsopp>> BBPress, where you can subscribe via RSS to individual John Allsopp>> threads, where threads can be tagged, where searching John Allsopp>> is much less of a pain than with a mailing list ... I'm also 100% with John on this. Forums also given the benefit of providing a much multidimensional organization for archives. It's also much, much easier to follow the history for a thread. You can also do a lot more with search engine optization of a forum to bring in interest people. Colin Barrett>> I don't like forums because I have to go to a website Colin Barrett>> to use them. And I *far* prefer using a forum over a mailing list. The only reason I'm on this mailing list is because my interest in Microformats outweights how much I despise using mailing lists. Which means I'm highly interested in Microformats because I really, really despise mailing lists. And I don't like mailing lists because I tried to stay focused but getting messages is a constant interruption (yes I use an inbox rule, but Outlook freezes for a split second every time I get messages, so I am constantly aware of them. I sometimes have to take my laptop somewhere so I can work without all the infernal email. I hate to say it, but it sure was nice with the list server was down. ;) Colin Barrett>> I'd much rather work from my email Colin Barrett>> client, which has a nice big text box, Colin Barrett>> unlike a forum, which often have Colin Barrett>> ridiculously small text entry elements. "Always have ridiculously small text entry elements" would be a valid reason not to use a forum, but "often have ridiculously small text entry elements" is not. It seems like maybe you haven't actually seen some of the newer forums in use over the past ~5 years? Any chance you developed this bias early on when forums sucked, and haven't returned to use a forum since? (I'm not attacking you, just frustrated with having to use this list when forums IMO are so much better. I also had someone who is using a forum I administer fight me tooth and nail to stick with email, and a year later she is one of the highest volume users of the forum.) I'd done a lot of research into forums, and I've come to the conclusion there is really only one forum worth seriously considering for its features and 3rd party support (unless you are on Windows Server) and that is vBulletin (http://www.vbulletin.com). It doesn't have tiny little text boxes and have some really incredible features. And if costs $85/year to rent or $160 to buy w/a year of upgrades; definitely a bargain. What's more, it has a mailing list integration module (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=65152) so we could have the best of both worlds. The envelope pushers could have their forum, and the lluddites could stick with email. ;-) Colin Barrett>> Plus, the UI in my email client is much nicer than that of most forums. vBulletin can be configured to send posts to your email, so you'll be able to still use your email client for reading if you like. Colin Barrett>> There are a host of other Colin Barrett>> disadvantages to using a forum. Can you detail those disadvantages for us to discuss/debate? Colin Barrett>> Granted, mailing lists aren't perfect, but we have one now and it works. A vBulletin forum can be set up in a two hours max. I'll run it if that's an option so it would only be my time. Colin Barrett>> Forums also require a bit more administration Colin Barrett>> than a mailing list, and our list administrators Colin Barrett>> are already over-worked, it seems. How does it take more admin? I administer a vBulletin forum right now and it takes almost no time at all. You don't have to worry about issues with POP3 and SMTP so it IMO is actually easier. -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ From rob at sanchothefat.com Thu Nov 2 06:55:52 2006 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Thu Nov 2 06:56:26 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Actions In-Reply-To: References: <4548FCAA.6000509@sanchothefat.com> <9BA4CD70-43AC-4569-8056-E06E1E67D5B8@lava.net> Message-ID: <454A06F8.3040005@sanchothefat.com> Joel Selvadurai wrote: > I think that services in the future won't be consumed through a web > page. They will just happen, the outcome of which will be dictated by > an action (or set of rules). It is this sort of 'action' that I'm > trying to get at. > > I'm pretty confused here but to get things to 'meet' like that you'd need a web service like a microformats specific search engine or spider that pulls the info out and cross-references it. I've got an upcoming project for a recruitment firm with a db full of resumes. It shouldn't be too hard to factor in

Is YouTube "Web 2.0" as a follow-up to a > post by Lawrence Lessig, "The Ethics of Web 2.0." Lessig > specifically differentiates between "true sharing" and "fake > sharing." For Lessig, YouTube is a "fake sharing" site because it > does not allow users to download content; all traffic is directed > back to YouTube, thus YouTube, not the users, essentially controls > the content.

>
> > thanks! > Jeremy > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/xfolk > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > -- Bud Gibson cell: 734-657-4800 web: http://thecommunityengine.com From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Nov 2 13:06:15 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Nov 2 13:06:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo microformats with Google Earth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A7CE540-8EAF-49BF-A92F-BA6081DDB2E1@randomchaos.com> On Nov 2, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Suppose I have an ordinary HTML web page. Embedded in the web page > are > a number of geo microformats. The web page has a link to, say, a > Javascript file. When the web page is loaded in a browser, the > Javascript is automatically invoked and extracts all the geo > Microformats, mashes them with Google Earth, and then displays a > Google > Earth map on the browser screen with dots at the locations where the > geo microformats indicated. > > For a user who doesn't want a map display, he can receive the same web > page, but with a link to a CSS file, which displays the geo data in a > textual form. > > Thus, the same data can be rendered in multiple different ways. > > Has anyone done this kind of thing? Care to share how you did it? Brian Suda has done this here: http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/ Peace, Scott From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Nov 2 15:05:27 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Nov 2 15:07:13 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo - inside our outside address? Message-ID: Can an hCard's "geo" property appear inside an "adr"? Tittesworth Visitor Centre Leek, Staffordshire ST13 8SW; SJ9960 or only outside it: Tittesworth Visitor Centre Leek, Staffordshire ST13 8SW; SJ9960 ? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Nov 2 15:11:10 2006 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Nov 2 15:11:15 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the "value" subproperty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20611021511u70ce72w69609b9bee86f075@mail.gmail.com> Ah, you learn something new every day [1]. Regards, etc... David [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire On 11/2/06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , > "Costello, Roger L." writes > > >John will be > >our speaker. Mr. Public will talk about ... > > >Is this reasonable? > > No; it's unforgivable. > > One should *never* use "Mr." and "Esq." at the same time! > > -- > Andy Mabbett > Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: > > Free Our Data: > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onamine.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From bewest at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 16:37:59 2006 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Thu Nov 2 16:38:03 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a > thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Nov 3 01:13:06 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Nov 3 01:14:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <23DXkgiigwSFFw7I@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin West writes >> If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a >> thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] >> notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > >I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail >clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of >"tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. ...providing everyone used them properly. How would you ensure that? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 01:14:56 2006 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Nov 3 01:15:00 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/3/06, Benjamin West wrote: > > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a > > thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > > I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail > clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of > "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. I like simple solutions. :) To be honest, I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki AND a forum. Selfish, selfish of me. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From chris.messina at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 01:43:44 2006 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Fri Nov 3 01:43:50 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: References: <81347D8F-5AB9-4B27-9528-8AABD8D905E3@technorati.com> <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611030143i762b5aaaw93527ead877dc1cd@mail.gmail.com> Wow. This thread spiraled into nowhere land quickly. I mean, once you're into personal preferences, you know that you're never going to win. Some prefer email, some forums, some RSS -- hell -- it's just the *display* of data. Thank g*d we separated those two a long time ago so that people can have their way! (Just for notes, Google Groups Beta is kind of the ideal merger of forums, email and RSS, if you haven't tried it yet). Anyway, let me throw out something controversial to steer this back. So there's been discussion about creating new lists for every new microformat that's proposed. Well, that sounds like a very fractious action, that could really undermine the authority of the group. Or not. But rather than host it all here on the microformats-discuss list, there's no reason why folks can't go off and start their own efforts, as others have (see: Social Media Club). I'm not advocating the splitting of the community, but I am advocating for folks to see to their own desires, interests and verticals and take the model, spirit and goals of microformats and strike out on your own and work to get your own microformats adopted. Because it's true, this form of dialogue doesn't scale well -- and the only way to advance is to farm out the work to distributed nodes in the system, let them focus hard and work hard, and then return back with their findings, implementations and/or adoptions. No one's stopping you. As far as I'm concerned, have at. Chris On 11/3/06, Frances Berriman wrote: > On 11/3/06, Benjamin West wrote: > > > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a > > > thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > > > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > > > > I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail > > clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of > > "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. > > I like simple solutions. :) > > To be honest, I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki > AND a forum. Selfish, selfish of me. > > > -- > Frances Berriman > http://fberriman.com > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 04:09:21 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Nov 3 04:09:26 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo microformats with Google Earth? In-Reply-To: <6A7CE540-8EAF-49BF-A92F-BA6081DDB2E1@randomchaos.com> References: <6A7CE540-8EAF-49BF-A92F-BA6081DDB2E1@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <21e770780611030409m286b769dxc60bff72b5ca7f4b@mail.gmail.com> There is also a pure DOM Javascript version by Jeremy Keith here: (you can view source to see how it works) It used hCards/hCalendar and GEO to mash-up google maps. http://austin.adactio.com/ As for my geo service (http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/) that uses an XSLT to convert the HTML into a KML/GeoRSS file which be loaded into supported mapping applications. I hope this helps get you started. If/when you have a URL please share it with the list and we can give you some feedback. And be sure to add it to the wiki under geo implementations. Thanks, -brian On 11/2/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 2, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > > Suppose I have an ordinary HTML web page. Embedded in the web page > > are > > a number of geo microformats. The web page has a link to, say, a > > Javascript file. When the web page is loaded in a browser, the > > Javascript is automatically invoked and extracts all the geo > > Microformats, mashes them with Google Earth, and then displays a > > Google > > Earth map on the browser screen with dots at the locations where the > > geo microformats indicated. > > > > For a user who doesn't want a map display, he can receive the same web > > page, but with a link to a CSS file, which displays the geo data in a > > textual form. > > > > Thus, the same data can be rendered in multiple different ways. > > > > Has anyone done this kind of thing? Care to share how you did it? > > Brian Suda has done this here: > > http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/ > > Peace, > Scott > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 04:13:10 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Nov 3 04:13:22 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo - inside our outside address? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780611030413g7292b3canf687a209ba302185@mail.gmail.com> they can appear anywhere inside or out. GEO is just another property in vCards, they are not directly associated with ADR. Infact they are NOT associated with ADR, they are associated with the person. GEO is a singular property in hCard because it does NOT represent the address, but instead the FN (person/organization). Since GEO has been abstracted into it's own microformat, it can also appear independatly of hCard, etc. -brian On 11/2/06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > Can an hCard's "geo" property appear inside an "adr"? > > > > Tittesworth Visitor Centre > > Leek, > Staffordshire > ST13 8SW; > SJ9960 > > > > or only outside it: > > > Tittesworth Visitor Centre > > Leek, > Staffordshire > ST13 8SW; > > SJ9960 > > > > ? > > -- > Andy Mabbett > Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: > > Free Our Data: > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From jeremy at adactio.com Fri Nov 3 04:58:46 2006 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Fri Nov 3 04:58:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo microformats with Google Earth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65EA1A23-88DB-431F-B5E7-EF4FCA1D743F@adactio.com> Roger Costello wrote: > Suppose I have an ordinary HTML web page. Embedded in the web page > are > a number of geo microformats. The web page has a link to, say, a > Javascript file. When the web page is loaded in a browser, the > Javascript is automatically invoked and extracts all the geo > Microformats, mashes them with Google Earth, and then displays a > Google > Earth map on the browser screen with dots at the locations where the > geo microformats indicated. Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing I want to do to encourage more people to use microformats. I've been messing around with this, as Brian said: > There is also a pure DOM Javascript version by Jeremy Keith here: (you > can view source to see how it works) It used hCards/hCalendar and GEO > to mash-up google maps. > http://austin.adactio.com/ It runs through the DOM, looks for elements with a class of "vcard", and then looks in there for abbr elements with a class of "geo" and then splits the title attribute on the semi-colon. I just did it again in a blog post, though Firefox seems to be having issues with Google's JavaScript: http://adactio.com/journal/1200/ I'd love to put this out there for anyone to use, y'know: "add geo- coded hcards to your page and automatically get a Google map: just add this script tag." But, and this is a big but, Google Maps demands that you have a unique application ID for each domain. That means anyone who wants to do something like this on their own site would have to generate an app ID at Google: that's quite a few hoops to jump through. I'll investigate other mapping providers (Yahoo!, MSN, Multimap, etc.) and see whether it would be any different. Thinking about it, demanding the use of the geo microformat might even be redundant in some countries like the USA: Google Maps (and others) have geo-lookups built into the API now, so a good adr in an hcard would be enough. Alas, living in the UK, these luxuries are not afforded to us. Thank goodness for OpenStreetMap. :-) > Care to share how you did it? Go ahead and look at the JavaScript here: http://adactio.com/extras/JavaScript/micromap.js If you have any questions, let me know. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From mikeschinkel at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 05:03:33 2006 From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel) Date: Fri Nov 3 05:03:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005301c6ff48$77cf99a0$2102fea9@Guides.local> >> I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki AND a forum. On that point I've proposed integrating the mailing list AND the forum, to give people the option of which of the two to use. So you wouldn't have to check all three. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Frances Berriman Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:15 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal On 11/3/06, Benjamin West wrote: > > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to > > a thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard] > > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > > I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail > clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of > "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. I like simple solutions. :) To be honest, I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki AND a forum. Selfish, selfish of me. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mikeschinkel at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 05:03:33 2006 From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel) Date: Fri Nov 3 05:03:40 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005701c6ff48$78d37510$2102fea9@Guides.local> Colin: I'm going to reply to you point for point because, frankly after reading your reply I felt like you were dredging up excuses, not reasons and I just feel compelled to challege your assertions. To the rest of you, please feel free it ignore the rest of my email if you would rather not be bothered with this issue. I'd love to see a forum but could live without one too. But I just couldn't help myself but go into pedantic mode given his arguments. ;) >> Perhaps you should try a different email client, then? So you are suggesting that I should change the application I spend 60% of my business day which meets many other needs besides just email so that I may accomodate your dislike for a forum? I wouldn't actually think you'd want to impose that on someone else, but it rather sounds that way. >> The only reason I say Often, is because the version of Safari I'm using allows you to resize text entry elements. I don't follow your reasoning. >> I use a vBulliten based forum every day and it's torture. I really dislike forums, but the people and issues I discuss on the forum outweigh my dislike of forums. To-may-to, To-mah-to. >> Er, I know that was meant as a joke, but calling someone you're trying to win to your side a luddite isn't the best way to do so. You mean there was more than a 0.00001% chance I'd change your mind? Mailing list vs. forum is a religion just like Windows vs. Linux or Mac, REST vs SOAP, Java vs. .NET, Perl vs. Python. Conservative vs. Liberal. (US) Republican vs. Democrat. Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judiasm. And so on. There is rarely rational thought involved when discussing those kind of issues. So, I had zero expectation of converting you at all; I was making arguments for the rest of the list participants. Anywho, as has been said many times before; best not to take personal offense at what people say on the list because its far too easy to misinterpret. I've frequently had to count to 100 before typing, and I just joined recently. >> Can I *reply* from it? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, and the composing interface of my email client is much nicer. If you have an email client that accepts HTML mail and the admin configures the forum for that you can. >> Sure. User names. I hate them. Theyr'e tolerable on IRC, but in an area as permanent and public as a mailinglist/forum I'd rather have my full name associated with my (and others) posts, especially a technical discussion. It's a chore to keep track of remembering what crazy nick name corresponds to which person. I agree with you. That's why I have a policy on a forum I administer for my condo community that everyone uses real names. And I also have the same policy here: http://wiki.welldesignedurls.org/The_Rules There's nothing that says we couldn't (and shouldn't) have the same policy for a Microformats forum. >> Mailing lists also allow you to use an already established "identity" -- your email. On a forum, you have to create a completely new web presence and identity. I don't see why one would have to create a completely new identity. I almost always use "MikeSchinkel" or "Mike Schinkel" as applicable except in the rare cases I want to be anonymous. Not so helpful for "John Smith," but for most of us it's not an issue. >> You can link it to your other ones with signatures and profiles, etc, but still, it's another login and another identity. Vs. another mailing list subscription to manage. To-may-to, To-mah-to. >> The above username/identity debacle a pretty huge one, and probably my number one complaint. Maybe we are getting some where; has my "real name" policy not addressed your concern? >> BBcode is a secondary one. It's awful. I hate having to deal with [quote] tags. Chevrons for quoting is so easier. Plain text email for the win. If you use the "quote" button instead of the "reply" button vBulletin quotes it for you. That said you can always use the same style quoting on a forum as you do in email if that your style. I find quoting in email much more or a PITA because I have to quote every line instead of just the begin and end of the quote. And if the person quoting is not careful (and who is?) the quotes will be too long and then you get an absolutely visual mess which is almost impossible to read. What's more, mailing list is plain text and makes it infinitely harder to present information in a understandable form than on a forum where you have lots of formatting options. And vBulletin has an optional WYSIWYG editor now so BBCode's not an issue. >> It also costs money. Who's going to pay for that? vB $85? Are you for real? $85 is pocket change for almost anyone with the technical skill to be active on this list. I'm currently unsure who my next client or revenue source will be (long story; after 12 years running Xtras.Net, I need a break and am being very selective), and *I'd* pay for the damn thing if that's what it took. >> is also not exactly slim in the markup it generates. Who would pay for that extra bandwidth? YOU ARE NOT REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT THAT POINT, are you? You are saying this on a list where the philosophy is "Don't worry about HTML bloat, just worry about the semantics?" Just how much extra bandwidth do you think a relatively low traffic forum will require?!? YouTube this aint. I'm pretty sure we could host the forum here http://www.asmallorange.com/services/hosting/ for $5 a month and stay under their 10Gb limit. But if things go really extreme we could pay $30 a month and go for 100Gb; that's 100,000 page views a month on their largest page size. Think we'll make that any time soon? And I don't know any stats on this, but I'll be that a mailing list server takes more bandwidth than a forum because forum pages are on demand and *everything* gets mailed to *everyone* on a mailing list. I'm sorry, but with that "objection" I can't take your objections seriously anymore. It's clear you're just looking for things to object to because you don't like green eggs and ham. Sam I am. Well, I know you've tried using forums, but the point is your mind's already made up and nothing's going to change it. Which is fine, except for when you dig in to impose your preferences on others where there could otherwise possibly be a middle ground. >> There's the layout, for one. I've admined forums (phpBB, not the greatest, but it's free) in the past and people always seem to ask for things when you're the admin, especially related to other users (bans of all shapes and sizes). Again, people ask for new lists on the mailing list server. To-may-to, To-mah-to. Finally, it's telling that you didn't even mention the fact that we could have a forum AND an integrated mailing list and you wouldn't have to be bothered by the forum if you didn't want to be other than being insulted by my making levity of the disagreement in preference. If we did go that route then we'd have the best of both worlds and wouldn't have those who dislike forums imposing their preferences on the on the rest of the group. OTOH, this is not ours to decide anyway; we are both just guests to microformats. And with that said, I'm really hoping this email didn't "overstay my welcome" with our hosts... -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ P.S. Please accept we are debating the issue and don't take any of this personally. From mikeschinkel at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 05:37:28 2006 From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel) Date: Fri Nov 3 05:37:33 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611030143i762b5aaaw93527ead877dc1cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007601c6ff4d$35187dc0$2102fea9@Guides.local> Chris: >> I mean, once you're into personal preferences, Just a point of note, I brought my preferences up only to show that there were counter preferances and that one-sided preferences shouldn't be the driving factor. Which was a much more verbose way of saying what you just said. >> But rather than host it all here on the microformats-discuss list, there's no reason why folks can't go off and start their own efforts, as others have (see: Social Media Club). You are right, there is no reason people can't, but respectfully I think it's not a good idea for them or for the Microformats initiative. There would be a HUGE duplication of effort, and I don't mean related to technical work; I mean related to the branding and marketing and PR of the proposed new efforts. I think haven't splinter groups would also potentially confuse the web development public for which 99% have yet to learn of Microformats. Mindshare and attention are in finite supply and any similar initiatives would take away from the mindshare and atttention related to Microformats. For example, if we had two oor three other groups vying for media attention (or eventually 50+ other groups) then the Microformat message could easily get diluted, obscured, or become invisible. And for splinter groups we'd have no control how they position themselves and/or we'd have to pay lawyers to tell them to stop using the Microformat term if we didn't like how they were using it. And on and on and on. So I think it would be much much better to scale up the process so that lots of people can involved all under the marketing and PR of the Microformat brand. And frankly I don't think it would be that hard to manage. It would primarily take specifying a process by which these other groups get formed and what activity and quality they need to achieve and then maintain, and then som ongoing monitoring. Chris, don't get me wrong; I respect your opinion greatly. I can see how your idea seemed good at the time, but don't you now agree that it could be a minefield of unexploded IEDs? Hopefully you see my point now, and concur? -Mike P.S. BTW, I've been advocating vBulletin, but I also have a Community Server forum up and running RIGHT NOW that also (could) integrate with a mailing list (I'd have to buy the add-on first) and we could use it for those who like forums, everyone else would be unaffected assuming we all agree. The forum us located at http://www.MashupTalk.com and I plan to get it going in the near future. Having a section on Microformats would fit perfectly into it's mission. What do you think? -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Chris Messina Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:44 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: Re: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal Wow. This thread spiraled into nowhere land quickly. I mean, once you're into personal preferences, you know that you're never going to win. Some prefer email, some forums, some RSS -- hell -- it's just the *display* of data. Thank g*d we separated those two a long time ago so that people can have their way! (Just for notes, Google Groups Beta is kind of the ideal merger of forums, email and RSS, if you haven't tried it yet). Anyway, let me throw out something controversial to steer this back. So there's been discussion about creating new lists for every new microformat that's proposed. Well, that sounds like a very fractious action, that could really undermine the authority of the group. Or not. But rather than host it all here on the microformats-discuss list, there's no reason why folks can't go off and start their own efforts, as others have (see: Social Media Club). I'm not advocating the splitting of the community, but I am advocating for folks to see to their own desires, interests and verticals and take the model, spirit and goals of microformats and strike out on your own and work to get your own microformats adopted. Because it's true, this form of dialogue doesn't scale well -- and the only way to advance is to farm out the work to distributed nodes in the system, let them focus hard and work hard, and then return back with their findings, implementations and/or adoptions. No one's stopping you. As far as I'm concerned, have at. Chris On 11/3/06, Frances Berriman wrote: > On 11/3/06, Benjamin West wrote: > > > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention > > > to a thread being related to a specific proposal, using the > > > [hCard] notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field. > > > > I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail > > clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of > > "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine. > > I like simple solutions. :) > > To be honest, I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki > AND a forum. Selfish, selfish of me. > > > -- > Frances Berriman > http://fberriman.com > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From ajturner at highearthorbit.com Fri Nov 3 05:57:19 2006 From: ajturner at highearthorbit.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Fri Nov 3 05:57:24 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo Message-ID: <4a31cd840611030557l6655cb8er8ebc3c1fefd6e313@mail.gmail.com> Have you looked at the Geo implementations section: http://microformats.org/wiki/geo#Implementations There are a couple of Javascript and associated tools like what you've done. I wrote one using Greasemonkey to display a map of locations, and also geolocate you and give you driving directions. If you still do your own solution (which is always fun and you may come up with a better solution) then look at YahooMaps, since it's not referrer specific for the key, but just a registered AppID, or Microsoft Maps which doesn't require any key (but is very buggy). You can also look at OpenLayers which is open-source. And if you want to be really neat, use something like Mapstraction which is a javascript mapping library that abstracts G/Y/M/OL and lets you switch between them. Andrew Scott Reynen wrote: > > > Suppose I have an ordinary HTML web page. Embedded in the web page > > > are > > > a number of geo microformats. The web page has a link to, say, a > > > Javascript file. When the web page is loaded in a browser, the > > > Javascript is automatically invoked and extracts all the geo > > > Microformats, mashes them with Google Earth, and then displays a > > > Google > > > Earth map on the browser screen with dots at the locations where the > > > geo microformats indicated. > > > > > > For a user who doesn't want a map display, he can receive the same web > > > page, but with a link to a CSS file, which displays the geo data in a > > > textual form. > > > > > > Thus, the same data can be rendered in multiple different ways. > > > > > > Has anyone done this kind of thing? Care to share how you did it? > > From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Nov 3 06:07:52 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Nov 3 06:08:09 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mashup a Web page containing geo microformats with Google Earth? In-Reply-To: <65EA1A23-88DB-431F-B5E7-EF4FCA1D743F@adactio.com> References: <65EA1A23-88DB-431F-B5E7-EF4FCA1D743F@adactio.com> Message-ID: On Nov 3, 2006, at 6:58 AM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > Thinking about it, demanding the use of the geo microformat might > even be redundant in some countries like the USA: Google Maps (and > others) have geo-lookups built into the API now, so a good adr in > an hcard would be enough. I was thinking the same thing when I made Auto Geo, which does geo lookups and adds geo to hcards with addresses in the US (and Canada): http://microformat.makedatamakesense.com/auto_geo/ Feed the results of that into Brian's service, and any addressed hCard in the US or Canada is mappable. Peace, Scott From costello at mitre.org Fri Nov 3 07:46:17 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Fri Nov 3 07:46:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] "type" subproperty in the hCard logo property? Message-ID: Hi Folks, The vcard specification says that the logo property may have a type subproperty to indicate the format of the logo image (e.g., gif, jpeg). However, as I look at the hCard specification it does not show the logo property as having a type subproperty. Is that a typo? /Roger From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 08:06:34 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Nov 3 08:06:57 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] "type" subproperty in the hCard logo property? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780611030806l5d360aa5x1ced6bb8ff562e32@mail.gmail.com> from RFC 2426 3.5.3 LOGO Type Definition: Type special notes: The type can include the type parameter "TYPE" to specify the graphic image format type. The TYPE parameter values MUST be one of the IANA registered image formats or a non-standard image format. because the element doesn't really allow you to nest child elements, and since the type attribute is really on available on the 'a' element. There is no way to really encode the value. I'm not sure exact what purpose it serves in a vCard application anyway. (i think) X2V will automatically extract the TYPE property from the @src string if possible. Do you have an example of a place you think you NEED a type defined on an image? -brian On 11/3/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > The vcard specification says that the logo property may have a type > subproperty to indicate the format of the logo image (e.g., gif, jpeg). > However, as I look at the hCard specification it does not show the logo > property as having a type subproperty. Is that a typo? > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From costello at mitre.org Fri Nov 3 08:17:34 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Fri Nov 3 08:18:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] "type" subproperty in the hCard logo property? In-Reply-To: <21e770780611030806l5d360aa5x1ced6bb8ff562e32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Brian. No, I don't have an example of where the type subproperty is needed. In fact, like you, I saw no need for it with hCard (although I can see the need in vcard, where the logo can be expressed directly in the vcard as base64). Perhaps there should be a mention on the hCard page that logo does not have a type subproperty? /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Brian Suda Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:07 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] "type" subproperty in the hCard logo property? from RFC 2426 3.5.3 LOGO Type Definition: Type special notes: The type can include the type parameter "TYPE" to specify the graphic image format type. The TYPE parameter values MUST be one of the IANA registered image formats or a non-standard image format. because the element doesn't really allow you to nest child elements, and since the type attribute is really on available on the 'a' element. There is no way to really encode the value. I'm not sure exact what purpose it serves in a vCard application anyway. (i think) X2V will automatically extract the TYPE property from the @src string if possible. Do you have an example of a place you think you NEED a type defined on an image? -brian On 11/3/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > The vcard specification says that the logo property may have a type > subproperty to indicate the format of the logo image (e.g., gif, jpeg). > However, as I look at the hCard specification it does not show the logo > property as having a type subproperty. Is that a typo? > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 08:32:25 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Nov 3 08:32:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] "type" subproperty in the hCard logo property? In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780611030806l5d360aa5x1ced6bb8ff562e32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780611030832u40c41f50j8b29d1be86834f38@mail.gmail.com> when you include data as base64, you will use the data:// uri that URI[1] allows for explict description of the TYPE, so that is where X2V extracts the TYPE data from. see http://suda.co.uk/contact/ i have a hidden class="photo" with a data URI: my Gravitar from that i can extract the TYPE data "image/png" becomes TYPE=PNG I hope that makes sense. -brian [1] - http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2397.txt On 11/3/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Thanks Brian. No, I don't have an example of where the type > subproperty is needed. In fact, like you, I saw no need for it with > hCard (although I can see the need in vcard, where the logo can be > expressed directly in the vcard as base64). Perhaps there should be a > mention on the hCard page that logo does not have a type subproperty? > > /Roger > > -----Original Message----- > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of > Brian Suda > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:07 AM > To: Microformats Discuss > Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] "type" subproperty in the hCard logo > property? > > from RFC 2426 3.5.3 LOGO Type Definition: > > Type special notes: The type can include the type parameter "TYPE" to > specify the graphic image format type. The TYPE parameter values > MUST > be one of the IANA registered image formats or a non-standard image > format. > > because the element doesn't really allow you to nest child > elements, and since the type attribute is really on available on the > 'a' element. There is no way to really encode the value. I'm not sure > exact what purpose it serves in a vCard application anyway. > > (i think) X2V will automatically extract the TYPE property from the > @src string if possible. > > Do you have an example of a place you think you NEED a type defined on > an image? > > -brian > > On 11/3/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > > > The vcard specification says that the logo property may have a type > > subproperty to indicate the format of the logo image (e.g., gif, > jpeg). > > However, as I look at the hCard specification it does not show the > logo > > property as having a type subproperty. Is that a typo? > > > > /Roger > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > -- > brian suda > http://suda.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From mdagn at spraci.com Fri Nov 3 16:27:54 2006 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Fri Nov 3 16:28:33 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] maps, place names and tagging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> > Thinking about it, demanding the use of the geo microformat might > even be redundant in some countries like the USA: Google Maps (and > others) have geo-lookups built into the API now, so a good adr in > an hcard would be enough. Even such geocoding services are still not quite smart enough to cope with many of those user-entered addresses for events I deal with here, which are often weirdly formatted or fuzzy. (some have missing parts of the address and people sometimes enter descriptions like "across the road from xxxx" which may make sense to humans but are difficult for any geocoding service to cope with). I have been thinking that I might be better off looking for ways to show a map (with zoom,etc - Google Maps API perhaps) centered on their chosen city where they click on the map to choose the location (it would have to be smart enough to not use coordinates if they haven't actually picked a point on the map). It would of course need to somehow be able to look up the coordinates of the city they have chosen. I'd really like to find out if there are any emerging standards for tags related to place names. I've seen some sites link to Wikipedia pages for city names. Wouldn't it be nice if the pages related to place names on Wikipedia (or any site that lots of people might link place names to) had geo markup on them and also some kind of standard markup for related place names and how they are related to each other? (something to say that suburb a is in city b is in state c is in country e). I used the example of Wikipedia because many pages there related to place names already have that information on them, but not in a machine-readable format. Maybe we need some kind of extended combination of geo/adr/hcard for places that can also show how a place is related to another place? eg "near", "parent" (as in "this place is in parent"), "child", etc given that most place names would be referring to fuzzy blobs that may be inside or overlap with other known fuzzy blobs. I've noticed quite a lot of sites using tags for place names but the lack of standards for place names is holding back this very simple way (for humans) to specify where something is. Of course this is not without problems such as different cities with the same name and alternate names of the same places but sites such as Wikipedia already have to deal with those issues and find workarounds. (and it would be good to see standards for such place name workarounds too!) Just specifying a city or suburb is not accurate enough for giving directions but even in such situations it could be a good starting point for showing a map for someone to click on to choose the exact location when entering data. (I think it could be good alternative to expecting people to enter their addresses fully in the correct format when their own knowledge of the address might be somewhat fuzzy) From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Nov 4 02:21:02 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Nov 4 02:22:29 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] maps, place names and tagging In-Reply-To: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: In message <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au>, Michael MD writes >I've seen some sites link to Wikipedia pages for city names. Treat that with caution. Consider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham which is, rightly, about Birmingham, en not Birmingham, Alabama. However, it was, recently, moved to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham%2C_West_Midlands for a few days, during which time the former was a disambiguation page. >Wouldn't it be nice if the pages related to place names on Wikipedia >(or any site that lots of people might link place names to) had geo >markup on them and also some kind of standard markup for related place >names and how they are related to each other? (something to say that >suburb a is in city b is in state c is in country e). That might be modelled on the "taxobox" used for species; see for example: > I used the example of Wikipedia because many pages there related to >place names already have that information on them, but not in a >machine-readable format. It would be relatively easy to add "geo" markup to the co-ordinates the "infobox" on the Birmingham page, and other like it. The existing mark-up (with "wiki-mark-up") is: ! Coordinates | 52?29N 1?54W Why not go ahead and do it on couple of pages, then find the relevant project page and explain what you've done, and ask others to do likewise on further pages? Or even including the necessary hooks in the Wiki software? Perhaps the microformats 'wiki' could also have a page about applying uFs on Wikipedia (ad wither wiki-media projects, such as Wikicommons and 'Wikctionary'? >Maybe we need some kind of extended combination of geo/adr/hcard for >places that can also show how a place is related to another place? eg >"near", "parent" (as in "this place is in parent"), "child", etc given >that most place names would be referring to fuzzy blobs that may be >inside or overlap with other known fuzzy blobs. Ranking places (this is a suburb/ village/ city/ county/ country) might be better, allowing a hierarchy to be implied. Or there could be a set of "rel" attributes for the categories you mention (I'd prefer "neighbour" or "neighbouring" to "near"). >I've noticed quite a lot of sites using tags for place names but the >lack of standards for place names is holding back this very simple way >(for humans) to specify where something is. Isn't that what co-ordinates are for? ;-) -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Nov 4 02:50:19 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Nov 4 02:52:06 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] maps, place names and tagging In-Reply-To: References: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes > Consider: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham > >which is, rightly, about Birmingham, en "Birmingham, England". Sorry. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From ckstjohn at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 06:05:44 2006 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Sat Nov 4 06:05:48 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] maps, place names and tagging In-Reply-To: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: <8ba906450611040605n3418ce81m81e44e4fbe82c1ce@mail.gmail.com> On 11/3/06, Michael MD wrote: > > I'd really like to find out if there are any emerging standards for tags > related to place names. > > ... > > Wouldn't it be nice if the pages related to place names on Wikipedia (or any > site that lots of people might link place names to) had geo markup on them > and also some kind of standard markup for related place names and how they > are related to each other? (something to say that suburb a is in city b is > in state c is in country e). > Well, "emerging standards" suggests standards that are somehow moving forward or gaining traction. If the question is simply "prior work in the area", then there's a bunch. For example, the Geo Tags effort[1] suggests using the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names [2][3], which defines formal naming hierarchies. I have a sneaking suspicion very few people actually go through the bother for web- based stuff, but I haven't done the research to back it up. -cks [1] http://geotags.com/geo/geotags2.html [2] http://www.getty.edu/research/conducting_research/vocabularies/tgn/ [3] http://www.getty.edu/research/conducting_research/vocabularies/tgn/faq.html#relationships -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From siegfried at rorkvell.de Sat Nov 4 11:38:58 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Sat Nov 4 11:39:01 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <8ba906450611040605n3418ce81m81e44e4fbe82c1ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <8ba906450611040605n3418ce81m81e44e4fbe82c1ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611042038.59166.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Just a question: for what purpose is the class="url" as attribute of a link? Example from the hCalendar spec: Web 2.0 Conference: October 5- 7, at the Argent Hotel, San Francisco, CA So what does the container contain? It contains a summary, two dates and a location. Does it contain a url? I can't see any. The href attribute of the container on the other hand does contain a url. It has to contain a url according to the html and xhtml specifications. Although this url does not need to be a full url. So, the simple usage of the tag (as well as the tag already implies the presence of a href attribute which according to specification has to contain a url. The same goes for img and the src attribute and with object and the data attribute. So here the class="url" is not only unnecessary, it is wrong, since the container does not contain a url. Other example: see here: http://www.web2com/ This indeed does contain a url. So here it would be o.k. to use the class="url": see here: http://www.web2com/ Generally, class="url" is not unnecessary per se, but it is wrong in all examples in the wiki. The only correct usage of class="url" would be if that html container indeed contains a url. From scott at randomchaos.com Sat Nov 4 12:08:54 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sat Nov 4 12:09:05 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <200611042038.59166.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <8ba906450611040605n3418ce81m81e44e4fbe82c1ce@mail.gmail.com> <200611042038.59166.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> On Nov 4, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > for what purpose is the class="url" as attribute of a link? > The href attribute of the container on the other hand does > contain a url. > It has to contain a url according to the html and xhtml > specifications. Right, so the class="url" is communicating something else: that this URL is /the/ URL for the surrounding vevent. A vevent can contain several URLs that have little to do with the event itself, e.g.: Argent Hotel, San Francisco, CA So we need class="url" to know which URLs belong to the vevent, and which don't. There would probably be a better way to communicate that than class="url", since at first glance, it's redundant. But because hcalendar is a 1-to-1 property mapping of vcalendar (to ease adoption), the property name URL in vcalendar became class="url" in hcalendar. > The only correct usage of class="url" would be if that > html container indeed contains a url. Unlike most other properties, the URL property takes it's value from the href attribute, not contents of the container. This isn't explained very clearly in the hcalendar description, but it is explained pretty clearly in hcard: "For the "PHOTO" property and any other property that takes a URL as its value, the href="..." attribute provides the property value." http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Human_vs._Machine_readable Peace, Scott From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Nov 4 12:29:35 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Nov 4 12:30:48 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> References: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <8ba906450611040605n3418ce81m81e44e4fbe82c1ce@mail.gmail.com> <200611042038.59166.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: In message <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com>, Scott Reynen writes >the URL property takes it's value from the href attribute, not >contents of the container. This isn't explained very clearly in the >hcalendar description Perhaps you could ask the author of that page to improve it? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From chris.messina at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 14:08:30 2006 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sat Nov 4 14:08:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> References: <200611040028.kA40SPV66410@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <8ba906450611040605n3418ce81m81e44e4fbe82c1ce@mail.gmail.com> <200611042038.59166.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611041408x17811793hc34eab1b6b618d7c@mail.gmail.com> Scott is correct., and Seigfried's comment is useful and should be reflected on the wiki. The class=url defines the *definitive* URL for the event or hcard. All other anchors are essentially ignored -- in that they represent non-significant or secondary data only (in leiu of the existing format). It might be useful to use 'alternate' as a class value however. Chris On 11/4/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Nov 4, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > > > for what purpose is the class="url" as attribute of a link? > > > The href attribute of the container on the other hand does > > contain a url. > > It has to contain a url according to the html and xhtml > > specifications. > > Right, so the class="url" is communicating something else: that this > URL is /the/ URL for the surrounding vevent. A vevent can contain > several URLs that have little to do with the event itself, e.g.: > > Argent > Hotel, San Francisco, CA > > So we need class="url" to know which URLs belong to the vevent, and > which don't. > > There would probably be a better way to communicate that than > class="url", since at first glance, it's redundant. But because > hcalendar is a 1-to-1 property mapping of vcalendar (to ease > adoption), the property name URL in vcalendar became class="url" in > hcalendar. > > > The only correct usage of class="url" would be if that > > html container indeed contains a url. > > Unlike most other properties, the URL property takes it's value from > the href attribute, not contents of the container. This isn't > explained very clearly in the hcalendar description, but it is > explained pretty clearly in hcard: > > "For the "PHOTO" property and any other property that takes a URL as > its value, the href="..." attribute provides the property value." > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Human_vs._Machine_readable > > Peace, > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From kmarks at technorati.com Sat Nov 4 15:18:39 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Sat Nov 4 15:18:54 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: Timeline and microformats Message-ID: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com> seen http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ ? I contacted the author - what's the best existing 'hCalendar to JSON' tool? Begin forwarded message: > From: David Huynh > Date: November 3, 2006 6:54:57 AM PST > To: Kevin Marks > Subject: Re: Timeline and microformats > > Thanks, Kevin. As far as I understand, hCalendar is for embedding > calendar attributes within HTML. Is there an efficient way to gather > these attributes distributed all over the DOM? If you can do that, > then it's not hard to construct event objects and feed them to > Timeline. > > David > > > Kevin Marks wrote: >> Your Timeline is a string piece of work, and it seems a perfect fit >> for the hCalendar microformat: >> >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar >> >> This is very close to your existing xml structure, but is already >> widely adopted across the web, for example by Yahoo Local, >> upcoming.org and evdb.com >> > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Nov 4 15:44:35 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Nov 4 15:46:16 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: Timeline and microformats In-Reply-To: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com> References: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com> Message-ID: In message <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com>, Kevin Marks writes >seen http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ ? > >I contacted the author Please also tell them about the "species" microformat proposal: which could be used on their dinosaur timeline. Thanks. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From chris.messina at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 22:01:01 2006 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sat Nov 4 22:01:08 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611042201x39e1e6fekb9ad16e7c78d9be4@mail.gmail.com> Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd? "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in preservation microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have been entrusted with this most important and exacting project'." It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the preservation of data: http://microformat.co.uk Chris -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From siegfried at rorkvell.de Sat Nov 4 23:15:02 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Sat Nov 4 23:15:08 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> References: <200611042038.59166.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <200611050815.03003.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Samstag, 4. November 2006 21:08 schrieb Scott Reynen: > Right, so the class="url" is communicating something else: that this > URL is /the/ URL for the surrounding vevent. A vevent can contain > several URLs that have little to do with the event itself, e.g.: > > Argent > Hotel, San Francisco, CA > > So we need class="url" to know which URLs belong to the vevent, and > which don't. Hmmm, understood. Although i think any url within the surrounding vevent container should belong to the vevent. Or you may argue, that any link _directly_ contained in the vevent container belongs to that vevent, any other url contained in some container within vevent belong to that container, as in your example. > > There would probably be a better way to communicate that than > class="url", since at first glance, it's redundant. But because > hcalendar is a 1-to-1 property mapping of vcalendar (to ease > adoption), the property name URL in vcalendar became class="url" in > hcalendar. Ease of adoption is an argument :) Although i think in most cases it is still redundant. > "For the "PHOTO" property and any other property that takes a URL as > its value, the href="..." attribute provides the property value." Well, there you need the photo property, but not the url property, since the href implicitely _is_ a url. The src attribute of the img container as well. The href (and src and data) attributes imply a url, so it is redundant to add a "url" property. O.k. i can understand your first argument. So the property "url" does not say that here we have a url, but here we have _that_ url among several others. Hmm, sounds somewhat weird, but acceptable. Regards Siegfried From siegfried at rorkvell.de Sat Nov 4 23:16:24 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Sat Nov 4 23:16:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: References: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <200611050816.24701.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Samstag, 4. November 2006 21:29 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > Perhaps you could ask the author of that page to improve it? I thought this mailing list is the appropriate place to descuss that? At least Scott Reynen gave some reasonable arguments. Regards Siegfried From siegfried at rorkvell.de Sat Nov 4 23:21:16 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Sat Nov 4 23:21:21 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611041408x17811793hc34eab1b6b618d7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> <1bc4603e0611041408x17811793hc34eab1b6b618d7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611050821.16892.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Samstag, 4. November 2006 23:08 schrieb Chris Messina: > It might be useful to use 'alternate' as a class value however. Good idea, since the alternate property is well established. But then, in Scotts example, what does "alternate" mean? Any url in his example is no alternate for the one and only primary url. All other urls are urls for different purposes. The alternate property might be useful f.ex. if you offer several different contact infos for an event. So for example a http://... url for a contact form, a mailto: address for the same purpose, and may be a postal address for the same purpose. You might consider adding the alternate property to two of them. Regards Siegfried From chris.messina at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 00:21:19 2006 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sun Nov 5 00:21:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <200611050821.16892.siegfried@rorkvell.de> References: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> <1bc4603e0611041408x17811793hc34eab1b6b618d7c@mail.gmail.com> <200611050821.16892.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com> On 11/4/06, Siegfried Gipp wrote: > Am Samstag, 4. November 2006 23:08 schrieb Chris Messina: > > > It might be useful to use 'alternate' as a class value however. > Good idea, since the alternate property is well established. But then, in > Scotts example, what does "alternate" mean? Any url in his example is no > alternate for the one and only primary url. All other urls are urls for > different purposes. > > The alternate property might be useful f.ex. if you offer several different > contact infos for an event. So for example a http://... url for a contact > form, a mailto: address for the same purpose, and may be a postal address for > the same purpose. You might consider adding the alternate property to two of > them. Specifically:

Web 2.0 Conference 2006

Tuesday, November 7, 2006 - Thursday, November 9, 2006 http://www.web2con.com/web2006/ This event on Upcoming
So there we have the official event URL and then an alternate URL that specfically pertains to the event but is not definitive. Seems useful to me and in the spirit of other uses of 'alternate'. Perhaps we should really use rel='alternate' in this case, but I'm not sure how I feel about that. Chris From siegfried at rorkvell.de Sun Nov 5 00:52:03 2006 From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp) Date: Sun Nov 5 00:52:12 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <200611050821.16892.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611050952.03259.siegfried@rorkvell.de> Am Sonntag, 5. November 2006 09:21 schrieb Chris Messina: >
>

Web 2.0 Conference 2006

> Tuesday, November 7, > 2006 - Thursday, > November 9, 2006 > class="url">http://www.web2con.com/web2006/ > This > event on Upcoming >
In this example the a container indeed contains an url (as content, besides the href attribute). So here indeed the class property "url" is absolutely correct. Independent of any other thoughts like url priority or the like. The "alternate" property in this example may be a good idea. regards Siegfried From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 04:55:09 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Nov 5 04:55:15 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: Timeline and microformats In-Reply-To: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com> References: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com> Message-ID: <21e770780611050455s5f683271ud0f7164af44fd151@mail.gmail.com> On 11/4/06, Kevin Marks wrote: > seen http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ ? > > I contacted the author - what's the best existing 'hCalendar to JSON' > tool? --- i'll spare everyone all the implementation details, but i have been trying to refactor alot of the XSLT code so that it is easier to choose an output format. Until i finished, the quickest and easiest hCal->JSON converter would be to take the open-source XSLT[1] and just replace the output text from DTSTART to the corresponding JSON ["dtstart": ... ] -brian [1] - http://hg.microformats.org/x2v > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: David Huynh > > Date: November 3, 2006 6:54:57 AM PST > > To: Kevin Marks > > Subject: Re: Timeline and microformats > > > > Thanks, Kevin. As far as I understand, hCalendar is for embedding > > calendar attributes within HTML. Is there an efficient way to gather > > these attributes distributed all over the DOM? If you can do that, > > then it's not hard to construct event objects and feed them to > > Timeline. > > > > David > > > > > > Kevin Marks wrote: > >> Your Timeline is a string piece of work, and it seems a perfect fit > >> for the hCalendar microformat: > >> > >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar > >> > >> This is very close to your existing xml structure, but is already > >> widely adopted across the web, for example by Yahoo Local, > >> upcoming.org and evdb.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From chris at placenamehere.com Sun Nov 5 04:59:46 2006 From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano) Date: Sun Nov 5 05:00:41 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"? In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C4D3927-2DAD-4511-BB33-F03275D224EB@randomchaos.com> <1bc4603e0611041408x17811793hc34eab1b6b618d7c@mail.gmail.com> <200611050821.16892.siegfried@rorkvell.de> <1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2006, at 3:21 AM, Chris Messina wrote: > On 11/4/06, Siegfried Gipp wrote: >> Am Samstag, 4. November 2006 23:08 schrieb Chris Messina: >> >> > It might be useful to use 'alternate' as a class value however. >> Good idea, since the alternate property is well established. But >> then, in >> Scotts example, what does "alternate" mean? Any url in his example >> is no >> alternate for the one and only primary url. All other urls are >> urls for >> different purposes. >> >> The alternate property might be useful f.ex. if you offer several >> different >> contact infos for an event. So for example a http://... url for a >> contact >> form, a mailto: address for the same purpose, and may be a postal >> address for >> the same purpose. You might consider adding the alternate property >> to two of >> them. > > Specifically: > >
>

Web 2.0 Conference 2006

> Tuesday, November 7, > 2006 - Thursday, > November 9, 2006 > class="url">http://www.web2con.com/web2006/ > This > event on Upcoming >
> > So there we have the official event URL and then an alternate URL that > specfically pertains to the event but is not definitive. Seems useful > to me and in the spirit of other uses of 'alternate'. > > Perhaps we should really use rel='alternate' in this case, but I'm not > sure how I feel about that. > > Chris I'm sort of jumping in late on this discussion, and probably replying to the wrong post by just a bit. But on class="url" vs. being able to assume that a link in a hcard or hcalendar item is a valid url for that data item I don't think you can I think action links are another case where url may not be appropriate on an anchor that may be associated with the block... add this event, edit this contact, block this user. I think I've also seen this behavior desired quite a bit more with hcard then I have with hcalendar... where you will often have the hcard container element spanning a fair amount of textual content. Sometimes the footer element, sometimes some copy with URLs that really shouldn't be attached to the user directly, and sometimes just a lot of 'random' stuff (use case of the authors card in a footer wrapping other meta info like rel="license", links to the validator or software apps home page.. or even text linked keyword advertising links). Though that might not be the optimal markup, I would push back strongly against assuming any more meaning to a link that doesn't have any explicit attributes. As for class="url" vs. class="alternate" I'm not sure the value in that vs. multiple instances of "url". Is there a parsing issue or translation issue into one of the external formats that this would help along? It sounds useful and certainly adds more meaning on the markup side, but I'm not sure how it helps once the item has been imported or extracted. -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] From costello at mitre.org Sun Nov 5 06:06:17 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Sun Nov 5 06:02:57 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n? Message-ID: Hi Folks, Here is some HTML text that I want to markup using the hCard fn and n properties: Today's speaker is Mr. John Q. Public, M.D. I propose marking it up in this fashion: Today's speaker is Mr. John Q. Public, M.D./> Notice that I am using an empty abbr element to store the value for fn. Is this sensible? Is there a better way to markup the HTML text? Is this Best Practice? /Roger From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 06:13:19 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Nov 5 06:13:22 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780611050613j524f0044m14341bb1be2723b@mail.gmail.com> Having empty elements is a bad idea. TIDY will outright remove empty elements, plus it goes against Human-readablity. For all the same reasons META elements get state, empty inline elements will get state as well. Why not just use class="n fn", you are displaying all of the 'n' data inside your empty 'abbr', so why not just remove the 'abbr' and move the class='fn' to the same data as the class='n' Mr. John Q. Public, M.D./> On 11/5/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Here is some HTML text that I want to markup using the hCard fn and n > properties: > > Today's speaker is Mr. John Q. Public, M.D. > > I propose marking it up in this fashion: > > Today's speaker is > > > > Mr. > John > Q. > Public, > M.D./> > > > > Notice that I am using an empty abbr element to store the value for fn. > Is this sensible? > > Is there a better way to markup the HTML text? > > Is this Best Practice? > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From costello at mitre.org Sun Nov 5 06:49:08 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Sun Nov 5 06:45:49 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n? In-Reply-To: <21e770780611050613j524f0044m14341bb1be2723b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Brian. I intuitively figured there was something wrong with using an empty abbr element. In fact, my first attempt was to do just as you suggest. However, I realized that there is a problem with that. Namely, when all the values are concatenated together we get this value for fn: Mr.JohnQ.PublicM.D. That is, no space between the parts. One solution would be to add a space after each part: Mr. John Q. Public , M.D./> Then the concatenation of the values will yield the desired fn: Mr. John Q. Public, M.D. However, I don't like that solution either, because now the given name is "John ", rather than "John", and the family name is "Public ", rather than "Public". This extra whitespace could be a killer for tools that do value-added hCard services. Any suggestions on how to solve this problem? /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Brian Suda Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:13 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n? Having empty elements is a bad idea. TIDY will outright remove empty elements, plus it goes against Human-readablity. For all the same reasons META elements get state, empty inline elements will get state as well. Why not just use class="n fn", you are displaying all of the 'n' data inside your empty 'abbr', so why not just remove the 'abbr' and move the class='fn' to the same data as the class='n' Mr. John Q. Public, M.D./> On 11/5/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Here is some HTML text that I want to markup using the hCard fn and n > properties: > > Today's speaker is Mr. John Q. Public, M.D. > > I propose marking it up in this fashion: > > Today's speaker is > > > > Mr. > John > Q. > Public, > M.D./> > > > > Notice that I am using an empty abbr element to store the value for fn. > Is this sensible? > > Is there a better way to markup the HTML text? > > Is this Best Practice? > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 06:55:22 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Nov 5 06:55:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n? In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780611050613j524f0044m14341bb1be2723b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780611050655u149873bfp6240792f2d023150@mail.gmail.com> On 11/5/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Thanks Brian. I intuitively figured there was something wrong with > using an empty abbr element. > > In fact, my first attempt was to do just as you suggest. However, I > realized that there is a problem with that. Namely, when all the > values are concatenated together we get this value for fn: > Mr.JohnQ.PublicM.D. --- In this case, they would not be concatenated together. Concatenation only happens with class="value". The white-space between the nodes is considered as well. In HTML one or more white-space values (space, tab, return) is considered one space unless you explicitily use the  . So your FN value would actually be: Mr. John Q. Public, M.D. With XSLT there is 'normalize-space' which converts that to the string you would expect. "Mr. John Q. Public, M.D." White-space is only preseved when you are using 
 elements.

> One solution would be to add a space after each part:

--- in this case, it is not needed.

> Any suggestions on how to solve this problem?

--- i don't think it is a problem, unless you WANT to preserve the
white-space, then in that case, i would suggest using the 
element.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From costello at mitre.org  Sun Nov  5 07:51:37 2006
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Sun Nov  5 07:48:17 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611050655u149873bfp6240792f2d023150@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Thanks Brian.  Okay, let's see if I can articulate the rules for
determining the value of fn:

Case 1: The contents of the fn-containing element is pure text:

The value of fn is the pure text.

Example: 

Mr. John Q. Public, M.D.

The value of fn is: Mr. John Q. Public, M.D.

Case 2: The fn-containing element has one or more value-containing
elements:

The value of fn is the concatentation of the value-containing element
values.

Example:



     John 
     is the speaker.  Mr. 
     Public
     will talk on ...



The value of fn is: concatenation('John ', 'Public') = John Public

Notice the importance of having a space after John

Case 3: The fn-containing element has one or more child elements:

The value of fn is obtained by:
1. concatenate the text outside the child elements with the text inside
the child elements.
2. normalize the resulting string.

Example:


     John
     Public


The value of fn is:
'
    John
     Public
'

This string is then normalized to:  John Public

Are these the rules?  Am I missing any other cases?

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Suda
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:55 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: RE: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?

On 11/5/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Thanks Brian.  I intuitively figured there was something wrong with
> using an empty abbr element.
>
> In fact, my first attempt was to do just as you suggest.  However, I
> realized that there is a problem with that.  Namely, when all the
> values are concatenated together we get this value for fn:
> Mr.JohnQ.PublicM.D.

--- In this case, they would not be concatenated together.
Concatenation only happens with class="value". The white-space between
the nodes is considered as well. In HTML one or more white-space
values (space, tab, return) is considered one space unless you
explicitily use the  . So your FN value would actually be:

              Mr.
              John
              Q.
              Public,
              M.D.

With XSLT there is 'normalize-space' which converts that to the string
you would expect. "Mr. John Q. Public, M.D."

White-space is only preseved when you are using 
 elements.

> One solution would be to add a space after each part:

--- in this case, it is not needed.

> Any suggestions on how to solve this problem?

--- i don't think it is a problem, unless you WANT to preserve the
white-space, then in that case, i would suggest using the 
element.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Sun Nov  5 07:56:52 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Sun Nov  5 07:56:57 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Sonntag, 5. November 2006 13:59 schrieb Chris Casciano:

> I think I've also seen this behavior desired quite a bit more with
> hcard then I have with hcalendar... where you will often have the
> hcard container element spanning a fair amount of textual content.
> Sometimes the footer element, sometimes some copy with URLs that
> really shouldn't be attached to the user directly, and sometimes just
> a lot of 'random' stuff (use case of the authors card in a footer
> wrapping other meta info like rel="license", links to the validator
> or software apps home page.. or even text linked keyword advertising
> links). Though that might not be the optimal markup, I would push
> back strongly against assuming any more meaning to a link that
> doesn't have any explicit attributes.

Well at least the meaning of a link _is_ that it contains a url in its href 
attribute. This is the basic meaning of a link, without any further markup, 
any class or id or other attributes. It is already specified that way.

> As for class="url" vs. class="alternate" I'm not sure the value in
It's not really "versus". The meanings and purposes are different. 
> that vs. multiple instances of "url". Is there a parsing issue or
> translation issue into one of the external formats that this would
> help along? It sounds useful and certainly adds more meaning on the
> markup side, but I'm not sure how it helps once the item has been
> imported or extracted.

The problem shows up, if you have a hCard or vEvent record containing more 
than one link, and only one of these links is really related to that record, 
the others are, as cou called it, random data. Well, i think, that such a 
hCard or vEvent record, from the beginning of the container marked with 
class="hcard" resp. class="vevent" up to the end of that container should 
only contain data relevant for the hCard or vEvent record, plus just filling 
material. 

Let's take hCard as example. There is the possibility to include more than one 
telephone number. It would be possible to add "alternate" to all but one of 
them. But the hCard specification already has better markup, specifying the 
type of the telephone number. Still, alternate would be an idea if you 
specify more than one telephone number of the same type. But i'm not sure of 
how to export that to VCARD.

Now what about the url in hCard? What does it contain? There are different 
possibilities of a url. One might be some http://www.bla.blub which points to 
the home page. The homepage is a valid field in VCARD. So o.k., you might 
consider to put this into the hCard record:


    http://www.bla.blub


This would be a perfect legal use of hCard and the url property. It's just 
that it is not very useful. Or at least you could enhance usability much by 
not using the  element, but the  element. Thus you might consider:


    http://www.bla.blub


Still perfectly legal. And indeed this container contains a url. And usability 
is enhanced by providing a clickable link.

But what about not putting the written url onto the page? But instead writing 
the text "homepage"?


    Homepage


This is valid, and through using the  element the content of the href 
attribute is by specification a url. So adding class="url" to that link is 
simply redundant. And: This container does not contain a url, instead it 
contains the text "homepage".
REM.:Is there a specification in VCARD to specify which kind of url this is?

Next: There are other types of urls. What about this:


    


Still legal. But still, the class="url" is not only unnecessary but not 
appropriate, since the container dies not contain an url, it contains the 
text "email". 

So exploring this, class="url" would only make sense in two very different 
cases:
1. You really include a url within the container.
2. You define that "url" does not mean a general url, but specifically the url 
to the "homepage". This would be a matter of definition and should be 
clarified. In this case, "homepage" would be the better class name, but since 
the VCARD specification already uses url, i think it's better to stick to 
that. Although then url as defined here would have a different meaning than 
url defined at the w3c. It would be possible, but should be clarified.

regards
Siegfried
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Sun Nov  5 08:09:54 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Sun Nov  5 08:09:58 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611050655u149873bfp6240792f2d023150@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <21e770780611050809v18b0c1d4n5a4a879a900a46c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/5/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Thanks Brian.  Okay, let's see if I can articulate the rules for
> determining the value of fn:

> Are these the rules?

--- that is pretty much what i have been doing and it has been working
fine so far.

> Am I missing any other cases?

--- It is not as important for FN but things like class="description"
where you might want to preserve the white-space there are different
rules for 

Also, the  element changes the rules slight as well.

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Sun Nov  5 08:29:27 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Sun Nov  5 08:29:31 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
References: 
	<1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: <21e770780611050829q2c1ac801g7f63ba5f8f33b94b@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/5/06, Siegfried Gipp  wrote:
> The problem shows up, if you have a hCard or vEvent record containing more
> than one link, and only one of these links is really related to that record,
> the others are, as cou called it, random data. Well, i think, that such a
> hCard or vEvent record, from the beginning of the container marked with
> class="hcard" resp. class="vevent" up to the end of that container should
> only contain data relevant for the hCard or vEvent record, plus just filling
> material.

--- having ONLY data related to vcard and vevent is not practical, it
forces people to change the way they already publish, it does not
allow for extensiblity to embed multiple microformats inside one
another. If vevents could ONLY contain vevent information, then you
could never use a vcard for the location.

> Now what about the url in hCard? What does it contain? There are different
> possibilities of a url. One might be some http://www.bla.blub which points to
> the home page. The homepage is a valid field in VCARD.

--- not sure what you mean by "homepage is a valid field in VCARD"?
There is a URL property in vCard, but no HOMEPAGE. Also, URL does NOT
take TYPES in vCard, so you can't do URL;TYPE=WORK:example.com (this
is a feature of some address books, but it is not part of the RFC
specification)

> But what about not putting the written url onto the page? But instead writing
> the text "homepage"?
> 

>     Homepage
> 

> This is valid, and through using the  element the content of the href
> attribute is by specification a url. So adding class="url" to that link is
> simply redundant. And: This container does not contain a url, instead it
> contains the text "homepage".

It may seem redundant, but it is the only way to disambiguate random
links with links associated with the vcard/vevent

> REM.:Is there a specification in VCARD to specify which kind of url this is?

--- nope, the URL property in RFC 2426 does NOT have TYPEs. (3.6.8 URL
Type Definition)

   ;For name="URL"
   param        = ""
        ; No parameters allowed

   value        = uri

> Next: There are other types of urls. What about this:
> 

>     
> 

> Still legal. But still, the class="url" is not only unnecessary but not
> appropriate, since the container dies not contain an url, it contains the
> text "email".

--- You have to remember that the VCARD spec was created many many
years ago, there are TYPEs for EMAIL that pre-date URL structure and
are propretary schema. MAILTO: and SMTP have eventually won out. So
EMAIL, in hCard is a specialized type of URL.

Class="url" can be used to associate IM protocols as well:



    jabber account




> So exploring this, class="url" would only make sense in two very different cases:
> 1. You really include a url within the container.
> 2. You define that "url" does not mean a general url, but specifically the url
> to the "homepage". This would be a matter of definition and should be
> clarified. In this case, "homepage" would be the better class name, but since
> the VCARD specification already uses url, i think it's better to stick to
> that. Although then url as defined here would have a different meaning than
> url defined at the w3c. It would be possible, but should be clarified.

--- i don't understand how you are relating URL to homepage in your
2nd point. I don't think HOMEPAGE is a better class name. In many
cases for events you want to point to the very
specific-deep-linked-page for that event and therefore it is not a
homepage, but simple a URL. I'm also not sure how the Microformat
definition of URL differs from the W3C version?

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Sun Nov  5 09:06:08 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Sun Nov  5 09:06:11 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611050829q2c1ac801g7f63ba5f8f33b94b@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	<21e770780611050829q2c1ac801g7f63ba5f8f33b94b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200611051806.08724.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Sonntag, 5. November 2006 17:29 schrieb Brian Suda:

> --- having ONLY data related to vcard and vevent is not practical, it
> forces people to change the way they already publish, it does not
> allow for extensiblity to embed multiple microformats inside one
> another. If vevents could ONLY contain vevent information, then you
> could never use a vcard for the location.
That's not true. hCard data within a vCard record is well related to that 
hCard and thus absolutely not random data.

> It may seem redundant, but it is the only way to disambiguate random
> links with links associated with the vcard/vevent
That is a point already mentioned. And this may indeed be true. Although still 
i think _inside_ a vCard or vEvent record there sould not be random links, 
but only links related to that hCard or vEvent. 

> --- You have to remember that the VCARD spec was created many many
> years ago, there are TYPEs for EMAIL that pre-date URL structure and
> are propretary schema. MAILTO: and SMTP have eventually won out. So
> EMAIL, in hCard is a specialized type of URL.
>
> Class="url" can be used to associate IM protocols as well:
>
> 

>     jabber account
> 


Still this is no random data, it is an information related to that hCard 
record. And still the usage of the  element and the href attribute should 
be sufficient to mark that as a url.
But: Is this type of url what is specified as content for the URL field in 
VCARD?

>
> > So exploring this, class="url" would only make sense in two very
> > different cases: 1. You really include a url within the container.
> > 2. You define that "url" does not mean a general url, but specifically
> > the url to the "homepage". This would be a matter of definition and
> > should be clarified. In this case, "homepage" would be the better class
> > name, but since the VCARD specification already uses url, i think it's
> > better to stick to that. Although then url as defined here would have a
> > different meaning than url defined at the w3c. It would be possible, but
> > should be clarified.
>
> --- i don't understand how you are relating URL to homepage in your
> 2nd point. I don't think HOMEPAGE is a better class name. In many
> cases for events you want to point to the very
> specific-deep-linked-page for that event and therefore it is not a
> homepage, but simple a URL. 
Homepage is meant as homepage for this specific hCard or vCard record. That 
may be as deep-linked as you want, it is still the specific homepage for this 
record.

> I'm also not sure how the Microformat 
> definition of URL differs from the W3C version?

What does the URL field in VCARD contain? Any arbitrary url? No specific 
purpose?

The w3c specification of a url is indeed any arbitrary url, whatever it might 
be. Any protocol specifier, any purpose.

(copied from above)
> It may seem redundant, but it is the only way to disambiguate random
> links with links associated with the vcard/vevent
So what now? Do we define that any link within a hCard/vEvent record is by 
definition related to that record? Then any url here, marked up in any way, 
is just related to that record, but has no further special "url" meaning. Or, 
does a hCard/vEvent record contain random urls, of which only one is related 
to the record? Then you may consider to classify this one and only link with 
class="url". But then the meaning of this url is not "any general url", since 
it is not any url to any random data, but it is _the one specific_ url. This 
is different from the w3c definitions.

From chris at placenamehere.com  Sun Nov  5 09:33:51 2006
From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
Date: Sun Nov  5 09:34:36 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
References: 
	<1bc4603e0611050021x7d289877h7a87ba60573e95f0@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: <4129482C-CD8B-42C2-8D5F-1443D262AC6C@placenamehere.com>


On Nov 5, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Siegfried Gipp wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 5. November 2006 13:59 schrieb Chris Casciano:
>
>> I think I've also seen this behavior desired quite a bit more with
>> hcard then I have with hcalendar... where you will often have the
>> hcard container element spanning a fair amount of textual content.
>> Sometimes the footer element, sometimes some copy with URLs that
>> really shouldn't be attached to the user directly, and sometimes just
>> a lot of 'random' stuff (use case of the authors card in a footer
>> wrapping other meta info like rel="license", links to the validator
>> or software apps home page.. or even text linked keyword advertising
>> links). Though that might not be the optimal markup, I would push
>> back strongly against assuming any more meaning to a link that
>> doesn't have any explicit attributes.
>
> Well at least the meaning of a link _is_ that it contains a url in  
> its href
> attribute. This is the basic meaning of a link, without any further  
> markup,
> any class or id or other attributes. It is already specified that way.
>
>> As for class="url" vs. class="alternate" I'm not sure the value in
> It's not really "versus". The meanings and purposes are different.

I'm still looking for the meaning of alternate as well in these  
cases, because i haven't quite figured out what its an alternate to/of.


>> that vs. multiple instances of "url". Is there a parsing issue or
>> translation issue into one of the external formats that this would
>> help along? It sounds useful and certainly adds more meaning on the
>> markup side, but I'm not sure how it helps once the item has been
>> imported or extracted.
>
> The problem shows up, if you have a hCard or vEvent record  
> containing more
> than one link, and only one of these links is really related to  
> that record,
> the others are, as cou called it, random data. Well, i think, that  
> such a
> hCard or vEvent record, from the beginning of the container marked  
> with
> class="hcard" resp. class="vevent" up to the end of that container  
> should
> only contain data relevant for the hCard or vEvent record, plus  
> just filling
> material.
>


But that's a very bad assumption given real world content and markup  
-- and that it is a bad assumption (and a worse rule) is at the heart  
of my desire to keep with the current class="url" requirement. Often  
the class="hcard" may be placed on a parent container for a variety  
of reasons both semantically and otherwise.

I will get into examples if I have to (though the wiki has plenty of  
cases of copyright or action links (download, map, etc)... But before  
I go that route let me jump back to 40k feet and see if I can get you  
to see if we're on the same page with the "legitimacy" of the use of  
class="vcart on the block elements containing *all* of the text in  
these examples.


EXAMPLE 1:

http://chunkysoup.net/

Chris Casciano has been working in the web industry since 1997, and  
currently makes his living as a freelance web developer. He also runs  
Place Name Here and contributes to the Web Standards Project.

EXAMPLE 2:

http://24ways.org/advent/practical-microformats-with-hcard

Drew McLellan is a web developer, author and no-good swindler from  
just outside London, England. At the Web Standards Project he works  
on press, strategy and tools. Drew keeps a personal weblog covering  
web development issues and themes.


EXAMPLE 3:

http://www.finds.org.uk/

The British Museum, Great Russell Street, London WC1B 3DG |  
Disclaimer | Privacy Policy | ? 2006
E: info@finds.org.uk T: +44 (0)20 7323 8611


The question: if I simply wrapped each of the above cases in 
 and linked the "obvious" links with  
class="url" (emails, personal web sites, etc) but nothing else would  
that be a "good" hcard semantically? How about if I also linked some  
of the other content such as "disclaimer" or "? 2006" or linked  
"London, England"or "Great Russell Street"  to google maps? should  
those links be attached to the contact information or simply be left  
with the raw content? What if I wanted to explain what a web  
developer was by linking to wikipedia? that's certainly fine by  
semantic hypertext standards, but its not contact information. So am  
I wrong for wrapping the entire line a container with class="vcard"  
or do we infact need some method of explicitly stating what s  
are (or are not) part of that contact information?


And these are simple example of quite compact content. Look at cases  
like flickr or linked in profiles where there is quite a lot of data  
about a person being displayed but as a result the "hcard" specific  
elements are scattered about the entire page (or a large portion of  
it).. Those cases must have a way to separate the "hcard" specific  
email addresses, urls, etc from the many, many other links in the  
body of the containing element (FLICKR: friends profiles, group list,  
"change information", "testimonials" are all between the block with  
name and location and the other block with contact / email address)




-- 
[ Chris Casciano ]
[ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]


From scott at randomchaos.com  Sun Nov  5 10:50:11 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sun Nov  5 12:17:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <200611051806.08724.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
References: 
	<200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	<21e770780611050829q2c1ac801g7f63ba5f8f33b94b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200611051806.08724.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: <8204C799-A040-47E6-BDDB-69239CA470C4@randomchaos.com>

On Nov 5, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Siegfried Gipp wrote:

> That's not true. hCard data within a vCard record is well related  
> to that
> hCard and thus absolutely not random data.

Not random data, but not necessarily a URL of the contact within the  
hCard, not the "homepage" as you've been calling it.  There are other  
links within hCards and it's not practical to demand publishers  
remove these links.  The very first example in the wild from the wiki  
demonstrates this:

http://www.finds.org.uk/

Here's the markup:
	


They have a link to their privacy policy and legal disclaimer within  
the vCard.  Any suggested change to hCard needs to allow for this,  
because this is what publishers do on the web today.

>> It may seem redundant, but it is the only way to disambiguate random
>> links with links associated with the vcard/vevent
> That is a point already mentioned. And this may indeed be true.  
> Although still
> i think _inside_ a vCard or vEvent record there sould not be random  
> links,
> but only links related to that hCard or vEvent.

We're not telling publishers what they should be publishing.  We're  
just helping them publish it with more descriptive markup.

>> It may seem redundant, but it is the only way to disambiguate random
>> links with links associated with the vcard/vevent
> So what now?

That depends: what practical problem are we trying to solve here?

> Do we define that any link within a hCard/vEvent record is by
> definition related to that record?

No.  That doesn't accurately describe the intended meaning of  
publishers using links with a block of contact information.

> Or,
> does a hCard/vEvent record contain random urls, of which only one  
> is related
> to the record?

Yes.

> Then you may consider to classify this one and only link with
> class="url".

That's what hCard does.

> But then the meaning of this url is not "any general url", since
> it is not any url to any random data, but it is _the one specific_  
> url. This
> is different from the w3c definitions.

Yes, it is different.  The more specific meaning comes from the more  
specific context.  Why is this a problem?

Peace,
Scott
From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Sun Nov  5 13:07:18 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Sun Nov  5 13:07:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <4129482C-CD8B-42C2-8D5F-1443D262AC6C@placenamehere.com>
References: 
	<200611051656.52668.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	<4129482C-CD8B-42C2-8D5F-1443D262AC6C@placenamehere.com>
Message-ID: <200611052207.19050.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Sonntag, 5. November 2006 18:33 schrieb Chris Casciano:

> I'm still looking for the meaning of alternate as well in these
> cases, because i haven't quite figured out what its an alternate to/of.

just imagine several alternate contact infos in a vEvent or maybe several 
alternate postal addresses or several alternate email addresses of the same 
type (more than one home email address). O.k. several alternate names is a 
bit extreme... :)



> The question: if I simply wrapped each of the above cases in 
 class="author vcard">
 and linked the "obvious" links with
> class="url" (emails, personal web sites, etc) but nothing else would
> that be a "good" hcard semantically? How about if I also linked some
> of the other content such as "disclaimer" or "? 2006" or linked
> "London, England"or "Great Russell Street"  to google maps? should
> those links be attached to the contact information or simply be left
> with the raw content? What if I wanted to explain what a web
> developer was by linking to wikipedia? that's certainly fine by
> semantic hypertext standards, but its not contact information. So am
> I wrong for wrapping the entire line a container with class="vcard"
> or do we infact need some method of explicitly stating what s
> are (or are not) part of that contact information?

O.k., that means that the class name "url" does not mean any arbitrary url, 
since it means the one specific url. That's fine. But it is different than 
the w3c has defined url. For me that's fint, too, but it should be clarified. 

>
>
> And these are simple example of quite compact content. Look at cases
> like flickr or linked in profiles where there is quite a lot of data
> about a person being displayed but as a result the "hcard" specific
> elements are scattered about the entire page (or a large portion of
> it).. Those cases must have a way to separate the "hcard" specific
> email addresses, urls, etc from the many, many other links in the
> body of the containing element (FLICKR: friends profiles, group list,
> "change information", "testimonials" are all between the block with
> name and location and the other block with contact / email address)

O.k. let's assume the hCard data scattered around the whole page. Then, 
somewhere you would have a name. Let's assume Lucky Luke:
Lucky Luke
Fine. Legal. But then, what would this mean:
Lucky Luke
The url is still very closely bundled with that name. So this simply implies 
that this url contained in the href attribute is the url for the person named 
in the content of that container. So why add a class name of "url"?  Any 
other information about that person may be scattered around the whole page, 
marked up in a similar way. In any cases it would make sense to add a url, 
you simply do the markup with the  element. Any other  element without 
hCard class names is then any other random url. It may or may not be related 
to this person. So if you like to add a google earth link, well, why not. 
There is no microformat for this. So you cannot make a statement about if 
that link is related to that person. Except if you enclose all that within a 
container, which then implies, that all content of that container is related 
to this person. That again would make it unnecessary to add class="url" to 
any links.

In the above two examples it's the same: Anything in the container is related 
to ist content. In the first example it's simply the name. Since  does 
not imply anything about its content (except of being inline content, not 
block content), it is reasonable to make an additional statement about its 
content. So with vcard fn this is done. The second example has one more 
information. Still all the content of the container is related to that 
person. This is true for the href attribute too. But the content type of the 
href attribute is already specified. The  element together with the href 
attribute do already have a well defined semantic. Contrary to the span 
container. 

I think it is better to use existing semantics and add only where necessary.

Besides that: If the information would be really scattered over the whole 
page, and worse: Mixed with data about other persons, then it would not be 
possible to automatically extract the various address records. You do not 
know which data belongs to which person. The only thing you can extract is 
the name with the url related to that name, if you use the  element as 
container. In this case this particular url is definitely related to exactly 
this person, no other. No need to add a class name of url.

Just an idea aside: If you scatter the information over the whole page, but 
the whole page is only about one person, it would be useful to apply the 
vcard property to the body element. Then any url in this page is related to 
this person. But not as close as related to the content of the  element. 
So if such a page would contain a google earth link with the street address 
in the  container, then this link would be more related to that street 
address than to the person. The most close relation with a person is with its 
name. In this case the link related to the name would be the link to be 
exported to the VCARD URL property. Still unambigeous, still no necessity of 
using some url class name.

O.k. ease of adoption might be an argument. And specifically pointing that url 
as something special might be an argument, too. But in both cases the meaning 
of the class name url and the url as defined ba the w3c is different.



From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Sun Nov  5 13:15:33 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Sun Nov  5 13:15:46 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <8204C799-A040-47E6-BDDB-69239CA470C4@randomchaos.com>
References: 
	<200611051806.08724.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	<8204C799-A040-47E6-BDDB-69239CA470C4@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <200611052215.34418.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Sonntag, 5. November 2006 19:50 schrieb Scott Reynen:

> 
>
> They have a link to their privacy policy and legal disclaimer within
> the vCard.  Any suggested change to hCard needs to allow for this,
> because this is what publishers do on the web today.

Interesting, and quite logical. This has no . So which of these 
urls to export to a VCARD URL property? So first i would replace this:
The British Museum
with this:
The British Museum
Then either you may simply define that a link related to a persons or 
organisations name is most related to that person or organisation, thus avoid 
the url class name. Or you might add the class name of url to explicitely 
specify that exactly this url is the one to be exported. But then the 
microformats url is different from the w3c url. According to w3c, f.ex. the 
email url is a url, too. According microformats syntax, only the content of 
the  element with the class name of url is _the_ url. The usage of the 
word "url" is different then. That would be fine, but should be clarified.


>
> >> It may seem redundant, but it is the only way to disambiguate random
> >> links with links associated with the vcard/vevent
> >
> > That is a point already mentioned. And this may indeed be true.
> > Although still
> > i think _inside_ a vCard or vEvent record there sould not be random
> > links,
> > but only links related to that hCard or vEvent.
>
> We're not telling publishers what they should be publishing.  We're
> just helping them publish it with more descriptive markup.
>
> >> It may seem redundant, but it is the only way to disambiguate random
> >> links with links associated with the vcard/vevent
> >
> > So what now?
>
> That depends: what practical problem are we trying to solve here?
>
> > Do we define that any link within a hCard/vEvent record is by
> > definition related to that record?
>
> No.  That doesn't accurately describe the intended meaning of
> publishers using links with a block of contact information.
>
> > Or,
> > does a hCard/vEvent record contain random urls, of which only one
> > is related
> > to the record?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Then you may consider to classify this one and only link with
> > class="url".
>
> That's what hCard does.
>
> > But then the meaning of this url is not "any general url", since
> > it is not any url to any random data, but it is _the one specific_
> > url. This
> > is different from the w3c definitions.
>
> Yes, it is different.  The more specific meaning comes from the more
> specific context.  Why is this a problem?
>
> Peace,
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Sun Nov  5 22:54:42 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Sun Nov  5 22:54:45 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000501c70170$6ff6aaf0$2102fea9@Guides.local>

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't you have to include white-space
for a visible display anyway?  i.e.


       
             Mr. 
             John 
             Q. 
             Public, 
             M.D./>
       
  

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/



-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Costello, Roger L.
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:49 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?

Thanks Brian.  I intuitively figured there was something wrong with using an
empty abbr element.

In fact, my first attempt was to do just as you suggest.  However, I
realized that there is a problem with that.  Namely, when all the values are
concatenated together we get this value for fn:
Mr.JohnQ.PublicM.D.

That is, no space between the parts.

One solution would be to add a space after each part:


       
             Mr. 
             John 
             Q. 
             Public ,
             M.D./>
       
 

Then the concatenation of the values will yield the desired fn: Mr.
John Q. Public, M.D.

However, I don't like that solution either, because now the given name is
"John ", rather than "John", and the family name is "Public ", rather than
"Public".  This extra whitespace could be a killer for tools that do
value-added hCard services.

Any suggestions on how to solve this problem?  

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Brian
Suda
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:13 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?

Having empty elements is a bad idea. TIDY will outright remove empty 
elements, plus it goes against Human-readablity. For all the same reasons
META elements get state, empty inline elements will get state as well.

Why not just use class="n fn", you are displaying all of the 'n' data inside
your empty 'abbr', so why not just remove the 'abbr' and move the class='fn'
to the same data as the class='n'

 
       
             Mr.
             John
             Q.
             Public,
             M.D./>
       
 


On 11/5/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Here is some HTML text that I want to markup using the hCard fn and n
> properties:
>
>          Today's speaker is Mr. John Q. Public, M.D.
>
> I propose marking it up in this fashion:
>
> Today's speaker is
> 
>       
>       
>             Mr.
>             John
>             Q.
>             Public,
>             M.D./>
>       
> 
>
> Notice that I am using an empty abbr element to store the value for
fn.
> Is this sensible?
>
> Is there a better way to markup the HTML text?
>
> Is this Best Practice?
>
> /Roger
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


--
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Mon Nov  6 01:01:11 2006
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Mon Nov  6 01:01:18 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?
In-Reply-To: <000501c70170$6ff6aaf0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: 
	<000501c70170$6ff6aaf0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

On 11/6/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
> Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't you have to include white-space
> for a visible display anyway?  i.e.
>
> 
>        
>              Mr. 
>              John 
>              Q. 
>              Public, 
>              M.D./>
>        
>  

Not in HTML, no.  The whitespace between "Mr." and "
Message-ID: 

Hi all,

Does anyone of you know if Flickr plans to support Microformats (and
which) anytime soon in the picture page?

They already support hCard on the profile page but it seems there is no
support for hFormats in the picture page. Typically this page can
include the geolocation/civil address of the picture ("locality" and
"region" are set as class but no standard support for hCard/adr/geo)
that could easily be provided as microformat...

Additionally, it seems that the description field, although it can
accommodate some HTML tags, do not support microformats (that could be
added "manually"): whenever inserted in the field they are automatically
removed when saved...

Any hint?

Cheers
walter
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From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Mon Nov  6 08:36:44 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Mon Nov  6 08:36:50 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Best Practice for fn and n?
In-Reply-To: <000501c70170$6ff6aaf0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <000501c70170$6ff6aaf0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <200611061736.45187.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Montag, 6. November 2006 07:54 schrieb Mike Schinkel:
> Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't you have to include white-space
> for a visible display anyway?  i.e.
>
> 
>        
>              Mr. 
>              John 
>              Q. 
>              Public, 
>              M.D./>
>        
>  

Unnecessary, since there is already whitespace (the newline abd the leading 
tab, will be replaced by a single blank on rendering. Else you could use css 
to add whitespace before and/or after that.

regards
Siegfried
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Mon Nov  6 08:45:43 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Mon Nov  6 08:45:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: Timeline and microformats
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611050455s5f683271ud0f7164af44fd151@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com>
	<21e770780611050455s5f683271ud0f7164af44fd151@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611060845t6e46a050y24f5e1aaaabfa9f4@mail.gmail.com>

I'd seen this work before and thought it the perfect implementation
opportunity for MFs. I even added the WordPress plugin to my about
page [1] -- but wht I really wanted to do was map the hAtom posts on
my blog (since K2 supports hAtom) on to the Simile UI as an
alternative browsing UI.

If we can get an hAtom to JSON converter as well, perhaps this idea
could happen?

Chris

[1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/whats-this-all-about

On 11/5/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> On 11/4/06, Kevin Marks  wrote:
> > seen http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ ?
> >
> > I contacted the author - what's the best existing 'hCalendar to JSON'
> > tool?
>
> --- i'll spare everyone all the implementation details, but i have
> been trying to refactor alot of the XSLT code so that it is easier to
> choose an output format. Until i finished, the quickest and easiest
> hCal->JSON converter would be to take the open-source XSLT[1] and just
> replace the output text from DTSTART to the corresponding JSON
> ["dtstart": ... ]
>
> -brian
>
> [1] - http://hg.microformats.org/x2v
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > > From: David Huynh 
> > > Date: November 3, 2006 6:54:57 AM PST
> > > To: Kevin Marks 
> > > Subject: Re: Timeline and microformats
> > >
> > > Thanks, Kevin. As far as I understand, hCalendar is for embedding
> > > calendar attributes within HTML. Is there an efficient way to gather
> > > these attributes distributed all over the DOM? If you can do that,
> > > then it's not hard to construct event objects and feed them to
> > > Timeline.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > Kevin Marks wrote:
> > >> Your Timeline is a string piece of work, and it seems a perfect fit
> > >> for the hCalendar microformat:
> > >>
> > >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar
> > >>
> > >> This is very close to your existing xml structure, but is already
> > >> widely adopted across the web, for example by Yahoo Local,
> > >> upcoming.org and evdb.com
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> brian suda
> http://suda.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Mon Nov  6 09:59:32 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Mon Nov  6 09:59:36 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats support in Flickr
In-Reply-To: 
References: <8ba906450611040605n3418ce81m81e44e4fbe82c1ce@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611060959y18c9a8ack8d2e4a90e28caa52@mail.gmail.com>

It would also be nice if they supported hAtom for individual photo "posts".

They do of course support geo-tags and rel-tags; I I owe them some
code for XFN support (which anyone can write -- if you're feeling
inspired -- just delve into Flickr's HTML and add the appropriate rel
values and we can diff it).

Did you have a particular use case in mind?

Chris



On 11/6/06, Goix Laurent Walter  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone of you know if Flickr plans to support Microformats (and
> which) anytime soon in the picture page?
>
> They already support hCard on the profile page but it seems there is no
> support for hFormats in the picture page. Typically this page can
> include the geolocation/civil address of the picture ("locality" and
> "region" are set as class but no standard support for hCard/adr/geo)
> that could easily be provided as microformat...
>
> Additionally, it seems that the description field, although it can
> accommodate some HTML tags, do not support microformats (that could be
> added "manually"): whenever inserted in the field they are automatically
> removed when saved...
>
> Any hint?
>
> Cheers
> walter
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
> This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above
> and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message
> in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited.
> Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should
> you have any questions, please contact us by replying to
> webmaster@telecomitalia.it.
>
>         Thank you
>
>                                         www.telecomitalia.it
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Nov  6 10:04:58 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Nov  6 10:05:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: Timeline and microformats
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611060845t6e46a050y24f5e1aaaabfa9f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com>
	<21e770780611050455s5f683271ud0f7164af44fd151@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611060845t6e46a050y24f5e1aaaabfa9f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611061004t388baab4q1b70078206d0d1ed@mail.gmail.com>

Try this [1].

Notes:
- all the '@' keys are derived information that may (or may not) be
useful: in particular, look at @title and @url
- because values in hCard and hCalendar can belong to multiple keys in
interesting ways, I put all the applicable keys '.' separated. I also
use this for expressing subkeys (i.e. 'n.given-name').

I'm open to suggestions for improvements.

Regards, etc...

[1] http://tinyurl.com/y5re6r

On 11/6/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> I'd seen this work before and thought it the perfect implementation
> opportunity for MFs. I even added the WordPress plugin to my about
> page [1] -- but wht I really wanted to do was map the hAtom posts on
> my blog (since K2 supports hAtom) on to the Simile UI as an
> alternative browsing UI.
>
> If we can get an hAtom to JSON converter as well, perhaps this idea
> could happen?
>
> Chris
>
> [1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/whats-this-all-about
>
> On 11/5/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> > On 11/4/06, Kevin Marks  wrote:
> > > seen http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ ?
> > >
> > > I contacted the author - what's the best existing 'hCalendar to JSON'
> > > tool?
> >
> > --- i'll spare everyone all the implementation details, but i have
> > been trying to refactor alot of the XSLT code so that it is easier to
> > choose an output format. Until i finished, the quickest and easiest
> > hCal->JSON converter would be to take the open-source XSLT[1] and just
> > replace the output text from DTSTART to the corresponding JSON
> > ["dtstart": ... ]
> >
> > -brian
> >
> > [1] - http://hg.microformats.org/x2v
> >
> > > Begin forwarded message:
> > >
> > > > From: David Huynh 
> > > > Date: November 3, 2006 6:54:57 AM PST
> > > > To: Kevin Marks 
> > > > Subject: Re: Timeline and microformats
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Kevin. As far as I understand, hCalendar is for embedding
> > > > calendar attributes within HTML. Is there an efficient way to gather
> > > > these attributes distributed all over the DOM? If you can do that,
> > > > then it's not hard to construct event objects and feed them to
> > > > Timeline.
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kevin Marks wrote:
> > > >> Your Timeline is a string piece of work, and it seems a perfect fit
> > > >> for the hCalendar microformat:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar
> > > >>
> > > >> This is very close to your existing xml structure, but is already
> > > >> widely adopted across the web, for example by Yahoo Local,
> > > >> upcoming.org and evdb.com
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > brian suda
> > http://suda.co.uk
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>



-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From ryan at technorati.com  Mon Nov  6 11:18:03 2006
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Mon Nov  6 11:18:10 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for
In-Reply-To: <200611021714.48485.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael>
	<200610312017.12076.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	<41A472E1-0459-4260-A249-BA24E5D3ACEB@technorati.com>
	<200611021714.48485.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: <46039AE8-508D-42C0-94EE-AF38EB46EE3E@technorati.com>

On Nov 2, 2006, at 8:14 AM, Siegfried Gipp wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 1. November 2006 20:28 schrieb Ryan King:
>
>> 1. The original spec of vote-links erroneously specified that the
>> vote-links link relationships should be on the @rel attribute.
>> There's content on the web (which will never go away) that uses this
>> construct. So, using @rel='vote-for' is not compatible with past
>> specifications.
>
> Well, that may be a point
>
>> 2. Using @rel and @rev for different meanings is not future proof. It
>> is highly likely that future versions of HTML will drop @rev.
> If the rev attribute will some day be dropped, then there would  
> automatically
> be no legal way to use rev="vote-for". But this is out of scope for
> microformats. This is up to the w3c
>
> But then, if the rev attribute will be dropped, why not define a  
> semantics for
> rel="vote-for"?

I think you missed how my two points interacted. It's not possible  
for us to define a semantic for rel="vote-for" which is different  
than semantic of rev="vote-for". Because of my point #1 above, this  
will only cause ambiguity. Due to point #2, we may paint ourselves  
into a corner and lose the ability to express the semantic that  
rev="vote-for" currently carries.

-ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



From ryan at technorati.com  Mon Nov  6 11:21:18 2006
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Mon Nov  6 11:21:26 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] xFolk use question - Using "taggedlink" inside
	"description" element
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
	
Message-ID: <70076E3E-9BE0-466A-940F-156993D70E8C@technorati.com>

On Nov 2, 2006, at 8:53 AM, David Osolkowski wrote:

> On 11/1/06, Ryan King  wrote:
>> 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#nesting-properties (though
>> that page is for hcard, it applies to everything)
>
> That sounds like something begging to me moved to a more central
> location.  Should it be in the FAQ, or is there a more general
> "authoring guidelines" page?

It is begging to be moved. We have hcard authoring at http:// 
microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring. Of course, some of that  
material could due to be factored out into a more general form (at  
maybe http://microformats.org/wiki/authoring).

This particular FAQ is a VFAQ (Very ...). It needs to be more easily  
found. Let's start by copying it to http://microformats.org/wiki/faq.

-ryan
From ryan at technorati.com  Mon Nov  6 11:31:00 2006
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Mon Nov  6 11:31:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: <002101c6fe84$133f6de0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
References: <002101c6fe84$133f6de0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 2, 2006, at 5:37 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:

> I'm going to reply to several responses at once.
>
>>> Why not create a new mailing list for each proposal, once it's
>>> reached a certain stage?
> Ryan King>>  Because that's more administrative overhead for
> Ryan King>>  admin's who're already overloaded.
>
> The problem is that the current Microformat process is not at all  
> scalable.
> It is much like having you managing a file containing all domain  
> names, and
> anytime someone wants a new domain name or subdomain, or make a  
> change, they
> have to get your time and attention. I think we all know what a  
> boon DNS
> was.  We should look to benefit from prior knowledge and organize the
> Microformat inititive so it can scale.

You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D

The beauty of DNS is that you can divide up the process of minting  
domain names in a way that it's impossible for people to step on each  
other's toes. With microformats, we don't have such technology. We  
could use URI namespaces (which, ironically, leverage DNS), or we  
could do prefixing of property names or something else.

However, those solutions are against the grain of microformats.  
They'd no longer be simple, they'd no longer work together. There  
would be too many of them.

-ryan
From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Mon Nov  6 13:25:51 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Mon Nov  6 13:25:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for
In-Reply-To: <46039AE8-508D-42C0-94EE-AF38EB46EE3E@technorati.com>
References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael>
	<200611021714.48485.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	<46039AE8-508D-42C0-94EE-AF38EB46EE3E@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <200611062225.51414.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Montag, 6. November 2006 20:18 schrieb Ryan King:

> I think you missed how my two points interacted. It's not possible
> for us to define a semantic for rel="vote-for" which is different
> than semantic of rev="vote-for". Because of my point #1 above, this
> will only cause ambiguity. Due to point #2, we may paint ourselves
> into a corner and lose the ability to express the semantic that
> rev="vote-for" currently carries.

Indeed, this i do not understand.Why should a definition of rel="vote-for" 
have any negative effect (or any effect at all) on the definition of 
rev="vote-for"? These are two different attributes.

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Nov  6 13:41:41 2006
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Nov  6 13:41:49 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for
In-Reply-To: <200611062225.51414.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael>
	<200611021714.48485.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	<46039AE8-508D-42C0-94EE-AF38EB46EE3E@technorati.com>
	<200611062225.51414.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: 

On 6 Nov 2006, at 21:25, Siegfried Gipp wrote:
> Indeed, this i do not understand.Why should a definition of  
> rel="vote-for"
> have any negative effect (or any effect at all) on the definition of
> rev="vote-for"? These are two different attributes.

It's because the microformat does not define the meaning of  
'@rel=vote-for', it just defines the meaning of 'vote-for'. The rel  
(or rev) relationship comes direct from HTML. The pool of values for  
@rel and @rev are shared as they are closely related attributes by  
design (these values are not always appropriate in both directions,  
of course).

So, the value 'vote-for' is definable as 'a positive vote for a  
resource'. That's what vote-for (and vote-against and vote-abstain  
with their respective definitions) *always* means when used in HTML.  
The source and target of that relationship is what the @rel and @rev  
attributes describe, not 'vote-for' itself, and that comes from HTML.

Hope that clarifies.

Ben
From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Mon Nov  6 17:36:23 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Mon Nov  6 17:36:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611042201x39e1e6fekb9ad16e7c78d9be4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>

Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial entities
lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...

-Mike Schinkel
President; Guides, Inc.
http://www.guidesinc.com
(404) 474-8948 
(404) 276-1276 cell
(404) 474-8949 fax
skype: mike.schinkel 
mikes@guidesinc.com
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel

 

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Messina
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd

Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?

"Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in preservation
microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have been entrusted with
this most important and exacting project'."

It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the preservation of
data:

http://microformat.co.uk

Chris

--
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
_______________________________________________
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From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Mon Nov  6 18:47:06 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Mon Nov  6 18:47:15 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611041408x17811793hc34eab1b6b618d7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/4/06 2:08 PM, "Chris Messina"  wrote:

> The class=url defines the *definitive* URL for the event or hcard.

No.  class="url" just means this is a value for the "url" property for this
hCard.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Not *the* URL.  *A* URL.  And certainly "definitive" is not implied.


> All
> other anchors are essentially ignored -- in that they represent
> non-significant or secondary data only (in leiu of the existing
> format).

That is correct.


> It might be useful to use 'alternate' as a class value however.

Why?  What problem are you trying to solve?

Thanks,

Tantek

From Thomas.PEKLAK at geos.biz  Tue Nov  7 03:08:18 2006
From: Thomas.PEKLAK at geos.biz (Thomas.PEKLAK@geos.biz)
Date: Tue Nov  7 03:08:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Thomas PEKLAK is out of the office.
Message-ID: 





I will be out of the office starting  07.11.2006 and will not return until
11.11.2006.

I will respond to your message when I return.

______________________________________________________________________
Der Austausch von Nachrichten mit Software Daten Service via E-Mail dient
ausschliesslich Informationszwecken. Rechtsgeschaeftliche Erklaerungen
duerfen ueber dieses Medium nicht ausgetauscht werden.

Correspondence with Software Daten Service via e-mail is only for
information purposes. This medium is not to be used for the exchange of
legally-binding communications.

From laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it  Tue Nov  7 05:25:06 2006
From: laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it (Goix Laurent Walter)
Date: Tue Nov  7 05:25:14 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats support in Flickr
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611060959y18c9a8ack8d2e4a90e28caa52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I have tried to put some hCard in the description field of some picture to include the name of the people in the pic, as well as the address where the picture was taken, but each time the HTML was somehow modified by Flickr at the time of saving and microformats were removed...

On the other hand Flickr provides with more and more 'Additional information' regarding the picture, such as where it was taken, the associated license, etc that would be neat to get as Microformats...

walter

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Chris Messina
Sent: luned? 6 novembre 2006 19.00
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats support in Flickr

It would also be nice if they supported hAtom for individual photo "posts".

They do of course support geo-tags and rel-tags; I I owe them some
code for XFN support (which anyone can write -- if you're feeling
inspired -- just delve into Flickr's HTML and add the appropriate rel
values and we can diff it).

Did you have a particular use case in mind?

Chris



On 11/6/06, Goix Laurent Walter  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone of you know if Flickr plans to support Microformats (and
> which) anytime soon in the picture page?
>
> They already support hCard on the profile page but it seems there is no
> support for hFormats in the picture page. Typically this page can
> include the geolocation/civil address of the picture ("locality" and
> "region" are set as class but no standard support for hCard/adr/geo)
> that could easily be provided as microformat...
>
> Additionally, it seems that the description field, although it can
> accommodate some HTML tags, do not support microformats (that could be
> added "manually"): whenever inserted in the field they are automatically
> removed when saved...
>
> Any hint?
>
> Cheers
> walter
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
> This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above
> and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message
> in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited.
> Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should
> you have any questions, please contact us by replying to
> webmaster@telecomitalia.it.
>
>         Thank you
>
>                                         www.telecomitalia.it
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
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http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
--------------------------------------------------------------------

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE

This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by replying to webmaster@telecomitalia.it.

        Thank you

                                        www.telecomitalia.it

--------------------------------------------------------------------
                        

From timber at lava.net  Tue Nov  7 05:27:22 2006
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Tue Nov  7 05:27:30 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <04C2D4CC-2A86-4241-A761-4BCE946F5485@lava.net>

Perhaps we could trademark "?format" (greek-letter-mu format) and say  
that the term "microformat" is just an expansion / alternate name for  
it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.

-Colin

On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:

> Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial  
> entities
> lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
>
> -Mike Schinkel
> President; Guides, Inc.
> http://www.guidesinc.com
> (404) 474-8948
> (404) 276-1276 cell
> (404) 474-8949 fax
> skype: mike.schinkel
> mikes@guidesinc.com
> http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of  
> Chris
> Messina
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
>
> Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?
>
> "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in  
> preservation
> microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have been entrusted  
> with
> this most important and exacting project'."
>
> It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the  
> preservation of
> data:
>
> http://microformat.co.uk
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Tue Nov  7 05:42:29 2006
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Tue Nov  7 05:43:01 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats support in Flickr
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

On 7 Nov 2006, at 13:25, Goix Laurent Walter wrote:
> I have tried to put some hCard in the description field of some  
> picture to include the name of the people in the pic, as well as  
> the address where the picture was taken, but each time the HTML was  
> somehow modified by Flickr at the time of saving and microformats  
> were removed...

If I remember correctly, Flickr strips the @class attribute from HTML  
you input, making it microformats unfriendly. The only 'supported'  
way to indicate people in photos is through tags.

Ben
From adarowski at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 06:36:03 2006
From: adarowski at gmail.com (Adam Darowski)
Date: Tue Nov  7 06:36:08 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-hcard?
Message-ID: 

Hi all:

I just signed up for this list, as I've been reading more and more
about Microformats lately. I'm going to go ahead and throw my first
idea out there.

Pardon me if this came up before on the list. But I'm a bit worried
about what type of/how much data is being marked up in hCard.
Sometimes it seems to just be names, titles, and organizations. So,
when these are converted to vCard, it doesn't really provide true
*contact* information. So, I'm throwing "rel-hcard" out there. You
post someone's name and add a link back to their own personal site
(which THERE is marked up in hCard). On that link, you put a
rel-hcard. This also helps make sure that content is up to date.

Anyway, I wrote this idea up on my blog. I'd be thrilled if someone
wanted to take a look.
http://www.darowski.com/tracesofinspiration/2006/11/05/hcard-overflow-could-we-use-rel-hcard/

Much appreciated, and I love what this community is up to. Again, if
this has been talked to death before, feel free to send me to an
appropriate archive (I couldn't find any).

-adam
From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Tue Nov  7 08:52:02 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Tue Nov  7 08:52:16 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for
In-Reply-To: 
References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael>
	<200611062225.51414.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	
Message-ID: <200611071752.02842.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Montag, 6. November 2006 22:41 schrieb Ben Ward:

> It's because the microformat does not define the meaning of
> '@rel=vote-for', it just defines the meaning of 'vote-for'. The rel
> (or rev) relationship comes direct from HTML. The pool of values for
> @rel and @rev are shared as they are closely related attributes by
> design (these values are not always appropriate in both directions,
> of course).
>
> So, the value 'vote-for' is definable as 'a positive vote for a
> resource'. That's what vote-for (and vote-against and vote-abstain
> with their respective definitions) *always* means when used in HTML.
> The source and target of that relationship is what the @rel and @rev
> attributes describe, not 'vote-for' itself, and that comes from HTML.

That is exactly what i think. But the specification explicitely relates the 
property "vote-for" to the rev attribute, thus indeed defining the complete 
attribute/property pair of rev="vote-for".

If it would be like you wrote, then rel="vote-for" as well as rev="vote-for" 
would have sensible semantics. Although "vote-against" and "vote-abstain" is 
not that useful together with the rel attribute. In the case of 
rel="vote-against" this would mean, translated to plain english: "please vote 
against me". Syntactically correct, but semantically - erm- at least 
strange :)

A simple meaning of "positive/negative/neutral vote for a resource", if just 
looked at the property itself, would be what i largely prefere. Then this 
property might be combined with any attribute, inheriting the semantics of 
that attribute, and maybe inheriting the semantics of the element as well. So 
combined with the rev attribute, a rev="vote-for" would mean "a positive vote 
for that (target/remote) resource, whereas a rel="vote-for" would then very 
logically mean "a positive vote for this (local/current) resource. And more, 
it would be combineable with the class attribute as well:
and still it's spinning around
Well, forgive my english, i'm no native english speaker. And the cite 
attribute should contain a url. But that's not the point. The point is: Again 
you can apply your "vote-for" semantics to this construct. So this is "a 
positive vote for the content of this container". Might in some cases be 
applicable to the id attribute as well.

It would be wise to restrict the microformats specification to the semantics 
of the _property_ (as you wrote), adding the attribute/property pairs as 
examples and use cases, not more. This would make many microformats much more 
useful.

regards
Siegfried



From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Tue Nov  7 09:01:58 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Tue Nov  7 09:02:15 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <200611071801.58570.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Dienstag, 7. November 2006 03:47 schrieb Tantek ?elik:

> No.  class="url" just means this is a value for the "url" property for this
> hCard.  Nothing more, nothing less.
>
> Not *the* URL.  *A* URL.  And certainly "definitive" is not implied.
>

That is not logical. The problem case here is some container of class vcard, 
containing _several_ urls. So if to apply the class="url" to one of them, 
this means selecting that very special url to be the url for the VCARD URL 
field. So this _is_ then a special url.

Just as you wrote: 
> class="url" just means this is a value for the "url" property for this
> hCard.  Nothing more, nothing less.
So class="url" means this is the value for the url property. This means, that 
the other urls are _not_. So this distinguishes this special url from all the 
others. This _is_ special. Just the word "definitive" is somewhat overused :)

So the point is: If you need to specify the one special url among a set of 
urls with class="url", then this microformats word "url" does not have 
exactly the same semantics as the word "url" defined by the w3c. The 
microformats word "url" specify one special outstanding url out of many, 
where the w3c "url" means, what you wrote, *a* url, not *the* url.

Regards
Siegfried

From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Nov  7 09:03:53 2006
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Nov  7 09:03:59 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for
In-Reply-To: <200611012042.23681.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael>
	
	
	<200611012042.23681.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: 

On 11/1/06, Siegfried Gipp  wrote:
> Well, at least i know many examples saying exactly that, but without using
> rel="vote-for". There are many pages out there trying to make the visitors
> vote for them.

rev="vote-for" means "The current page is a vote for this URL".  By
definition that makes rel="vote-for" mean "This url is a vote for the
current page".  It could be used, for instance, to link to people who
are adding their names to a petition?

I don't think it can be taken to mean 'This is a place where you can
vote for the current page', which seems to be your intent.

-Ciaran McNulty
From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Tue Nov  7 09:07:54 2006
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Tue Nov  7 09:07:59 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-hcard?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <200611071807.55014.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Am Dienstag, 7. November 2006 15:36 schrieb Adam Darowski:

> Pardon me if this came up before on the list. But I'm a bit worried
> about what type of/how much data is being marked up in hCard.
> Sometimes it seems to just be names, titles, and organizations. So,
> when these are converted to vCard, it doesn't really provide true
> *contact* information. So, I'm throwing "rel-hcard" out there. You
> post someone's name and add a link back to their own personal site
> (which THERE is marked up in hCard). On that link, you put a
> rel-hcard. This also helps make sure that content is up to date.

Nice idea. This would work, if the target resource (i.e. the target html page) 
has a root element of class vcard, or in case of html, at least a .
Or the url points to a container with an id within that page. Then f.ex. the 
target page may contain some


...



and then you might link to that address record with bla

This would then have a similar meaning as the type attribute. The type 
attribute with its property defines the mime type of the target, the 
rel="vcard" would define a microformats address record as target. Nice idea.

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Nov  7 09:39:30 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Nov  7 09:39:39 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: <200611071801.58570.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: 

On 11/7/06 9:01 AM, "Siegfried Gipp"  wrote:

> Am Dienstag, 7. November 2006 03:47 schrieb Tantek ?elik:
> 
>> No.  class="url" just means this is a value for the "url" property for this
>> hCard.  Nothing more, nothing less.
>> 
>> Not *the* URL.  *A* URL.  And certainly "definitive" is not implied.
>> 
> 
> That is not logical. The problem case here is some container of class vcard,
> containing _several_ urls.

That is not a problem case - that is *exactly* the case that makes
class="url" necessary.



> So if to apply the class="url" to one of them,
> this means selecting that very special url to be the url for the VCARD URL

Incorrect .........................................^^^...................^^^


Applying class="url" means selecting that "very special" URL to be *a* URL
for the hCard.

Please re-read what I wrote above.  *A* URL.  There is no assertion of
uniqueness ("the").



>> Just as you wrote:
>> class="url" just means this is a value for the "url" property for this
>> hCard.  Nothing more, nothing less.
> So class="url" means this is the value for the url property.

No.  It means this is *a* value for the "url" property.


> This means, that 
> the other urls are _not_.

The other URLs are not values for the "url" property.


> So this distinguishes this special url from all the
> others.

Correct in that it expresses that that "special" URL is a value for the
"url" property.


> This _is_ special. Just the word "definitive" is somewhat overused :)

No - you added the word "special" and then claim it as a conclusion.  That
is a tautology.


> So the point is: If you need to specify the one special url among a set of
> urls with class="url",

There is currently no way to express that semantic in hCard, nor in vCard
for that matter.


> then this microformats word "url" does not have
> exactly the same semantics as the word "url" defined by the w3c.

No, the microformat class name "url" has the semantics of the "url" property
as defined in vCard and iCalendar.  See the hCard profile which defines the
class name "url": http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile


> The 
> microformats word "url" specify one special outstanding url out of many,

No.  The microformats class name "url" specifies that *that* URL is *a*
value for the "url" property of the hCard.  That is all.

 
> where the w3c "url" means, what you wrote, *a* url, not *the* url.

Where does W3C define "url" to mean what you say?


Tantek


From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Tue Nov  7 09:51:04 2006
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Tue Nov  7 09:51:17 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] vote-for
In-Reply-To: 
References: <009c01c6f8cb$7c4712c0$116bacca@Michael>
	
	
	<200611012042.23681.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	
Message-ID: <63529CFE-3873-499E-9C08-626B9B0A6310@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 7 Nov 2006, at 17:03, Ciaran McNulty wrote:
> that makes rel="vote-for" mean "This url is a vote for the
> current page".

Correct. However, this isn't mentioned in the spec or anywhere  
because it has an issue with authority.

I could say 'That page over there is a vote for me'. That isn't  
authoritative, I could say that Google, Technorati, Tantek and  
Siegfrief Gipp all voted for my resource but an application shouldn't  
use that data, since I could be lying about it.

Now you could still do this, but an application would have to inspect  
each of those resources to make sure the votes were really valid.

Of course, that's still a valid use and does have assistive value to  
applications, but the authoritative relationship of vote-* is still  
@rev. That's why the spec talks in terms of @rev.

Now, that's not to say the Wiki couldn't be expanded to describe what  
I've just said (but, y'know, better), but it certainly _is_ to say  
you cannot take @rel=vote-* to mean anything but the opposite of  
@rev=vote-*.

Ben
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 09:56:57 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Tue Nov  7 09:57:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <04C2D4CC-2A86-4241-A761-4BCE946F5485@lava.net>
References: <003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>
	<04C2D4CC-2A86-4241-A761-4BCE946F5485@lava.net>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611070956j579bd9f4pb11d358c9f14817f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

They are in an entirely different industries.  From my understanding
of Trademark law... that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
anyone since (from the law's point-of-view) there is little chance of
confusion between the 2 names (since they are in different
industries).

(Oh yeah... IANAL.  But unless trademarks law has radically changed.
I think AL would say something to that effect too.)


See ya

On 11/7/06, Colin Barrett  wrote:
> Perhaps we could trademark "?format" (greek-letter-mu format) and say
> that the term "microformat" is just an expansion / alternate name for
> it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.
>
> -Colin
>
> On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>
> > Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial
> > entities
> > lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
> >
> > -Mike Schinkel
> > President; Guides, Inc.
> > http://www.guidesinc.com
> > (404) 474-8948
> > (404) 276-1276 cell
> > (404) 474-8949 fax
> > skype: mike.schinkel
> > mikes@guidesinc.com
> > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> > http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
> > Chris
> > Messina
> > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
> > To: Microformats Discuss
> > Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
> >
> > Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?
> >
> > "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in
> > preservation
> > microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have been entrusted
> > with
> > this most important and exacting project'."
> >
> > It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the
> > preservation of
> > data:
> >
> > http://microformat.co.uk
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --
> > Chris Messina
> > Citizen Provocateur &
> >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > Skype: factoryjoe
> > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
>
>



-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/

From supercanadian at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 09:58:02 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Tue Nov  7 09:58:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611070956j579bd9f4pb11d358c9f14817f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>
	<04C2D4CC-2A86-4241-A761-4BCE946F5485@lava.net>
	<84ce626f0611070956j579bd9f4pb11d358c9f14817f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611070958ie044ee8o5bada9e5a3b10ee@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Let me amend that.  They "could" sue.  But it's unlikely they would win.


See ya

On 11/7/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> They are in an entirely different industries.  From my understanding
> of Trademark law... that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> anyone since (from the law's point-of-view) there is little chance of
> confusion between the 2 names (since they are in different
> industries).
>
> (Oh yeah... IANAL.  But unless trademarks law has radically changed.
> I think AL would say something to that effect too.)
>
>
> See ya
>
> On 11/7/06, Colin Barrett  wrote:
> > Perhaps we could trademark "?format" (greek-letter-mu format) and say
> > that the term "microformat" is just an expansion / alternate name for
> > it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.
> >
> > -Colin
> >
> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> >
> > > Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial
> > > entities
> > > lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
> > >
> > > -Mike Schinkel
> > > President; Guides, Inc.
> > > http://www.guidesinc.com
> > > (404) 474-8948
> > > (404) 276-1276 cell
> > > (404) 474-8949 fax
> > > skype: mike.schinkel
> > > mikes@guidesinc.com
> > > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> > > http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> > > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Chris
> > > Messina
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
> > > To: Microformats Discuss
> > > Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
> > >
> > > Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?
> > >
> > > "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in
> > > preservation
> > > microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have been entrusted
> > > with
> > > this most important and exacting project'."
> > >
> > > It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the
> > > preservation of
> > > data:
> > >
> > > http://microformat.co.uk
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > --
> > > Chris Messina
> > > Citizen Provocateur &
> > >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> > > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > > Skype: factoryjoe
> > > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private


-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/

From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 09:59:56 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Tue Nov  7 10:00:05 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <00a501c70296$892742b0$2102fea9@Guides.local>

>> You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D
>> However, those solutions are against the grain of microformats.  
>> They'd no longer be simple, they'd no longer work together. There would
be too many of them. 

Then I am getting more and more disenchanted with the whole MicroFormat
concept. Microformats will be nowhere nearly as useful I as first assumed it
to be.

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/



-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Ryan
King
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:31 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal

On Nov 2, 2006, at 5:37 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:

> I'm going to reply to several responses at once.
>
>>> Why not create a new mailing list for each proposal, once it's 
>>> reached a certain stage?
> Ryan King>>  Because that's more administrative overhead for Ryan 
> King>>  admin's who're already overloaded.
>
> The problem is that the current Microformat process is not at all 
> scalable.
> It is much like having you managing a file containing all domain 
> names, and anytime someone wants a new domain name or subdomain, or 
> make a change, they have to get your time and attention. I think we 
> all know what a boon DNS was.  We should look to benefit from prior 
> knowledge and organize the Microformat inititive so it can scale.

You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D

The beauty of DNS is that you can divide up the process of minting domain
names in a way that it's impossible for people to step on each other's toes.
With microformats, we don't have such technology. We could use URI
namespaces (which, ironically, leverage DNS), or we could do prefixing of
property names or something else.

However, those solutions are against the grain of microformats.  
They'd no longer be simple, they'd no longer work together. There would be
too many of them.

-ryan
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Tue Nov  7 10:00:07 2006
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Tue Nov  7 10:00:18 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3636B053-04C3-4C37-A52E-DCC33325BDAA@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 7 Nov 2006, at 17:39, Tantek ?elik wrote:
>> So if to apply the class="url" to one of them,
>> this means selecting that very special url to be the url for the  
>> VCARD URL
>
> Applying class="url" means selecting that "very special" URL to be  
> *a* URL
> for the hCard.
>
> Please re-read what I wrote above.  *A* URL.  There is no assertion of
> uniqueness ("the").
>
Indeed. Siegfried, note that many address book applications (and some  
Microformats parsers) do allow multiple URLs in a VCard. In such a  
case, ALL those URLs in the hCard mark-up will have @class*=url.

>
>> then this microformats word "url" does not have
>> exactly the same semantics as the word "url" defined by the w3c.
>
> No, the microformat class name "url" has the semantics of the "url"  
> property
> as defined in vCard and iCalendar.  See the hCard profile which  
> defines the
> class name "url": http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile
>

I must concede, I find this part of the discussion very confusing. As  
best I can tell, we're discussion two completely different contexts  
of the word 'URL' here. One is the definition and specification of  
URLs is, the other is the use of the word URL to relate a URL  
contained in the @href attribute, to a defined property.

I don't see why the definition of one should be expected to affect  
the definition the other?

Ben


From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 10:04:21 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Tue Nov  7 10:04:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611070956j579bd9f4pb11d358c9f14817f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c70297$2859a7b0$2102fea9@Guides.local>

>> that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
anyone since 

Anybody can sue anyone for anything and hence eat up lots of lawyer bills.
Whether they'd win is another subject.  ;)

Chris said that it is similar, and if MicroFormat Ltd's lawyer think it
*might* confuse (and what lawyer's wouldn't think that when it is the most
conservative option and they get to bill them to advise their client of
such), they could send a cease and desist letter causing this group some
pain.

Anyway, either it will or will not happen; remains to be seen if it does.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Charles
Iliya Krempeaux
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:57 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd

Hello,

They are in an entirely different industries.  From my understanding of
Trademark law... that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
anyone since (from the law's point-of-view) there is little chance of
confusion between the 2 names (since they are in different industries).

(Oh yeah... IANAL.  But unless trademarks law has radically changed.
I think AL would say something to that effect too.)


See ya

On 11/7/06, Colin Barrett  wrote:
> Perhaps we could trademark "?format" (greek-letter-mu format) and say 
> that the term "microformat" is just an expansion / alternate name for 
> it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.
>
> -Colin
>
> On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>
> > Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial 
> > entities lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
> >
> > -Mike Schinkel
> > President; Guides, Inc.
> > http://www.guidesinc.com
> > (404) 474-8948
> > (404) 276-1276 cell
> > (404) 474-8949 fax
> > skype: mike.schinkel
> > mikes@guidesinc.com
> > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> > http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of 
> > Chris Messina
> > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
> > To: Microformats Discuss
> > Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
> >
> > Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?
> >
> > "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in 
> > preservation microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have 
> > been entrusted with this most important and exacting project'."
> >
> > It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the 
> > preservation of
> > data:
> >
> > http://microformat.co.uk
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --
> > Chris Messina
> > Citizen Provocateur &
> >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > Skype: factoryjoe
> > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
>
>



-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


From chris.messina at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 10:18:07 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Tue Nov  7 10:18:12 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <00a601c70297$2859a7b0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <84ce626f0611070956j579bd9f4pb11d358c9f14817f@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a601c70297$2859a7b0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611071018yec87e8cmcb08526966169f3e@mail.gmail.com>

I highly doubt that it will cause real confusion; furthermore, who
would be sued? No one owns the microformats name besides the community
-- which is why it's a community mark. We really don't have any assets
or formal structure, so it would be rather difficult to bring this to
court.

But that's highly unlikely as it is, since their name is singular. I
mean, we could do the right thing and contact them to let them know
that we're not looking to encrouch and maybe we'll be rewarded with
good karma... Or we could just fuggetaboutit.

;)

Chris

On 11/7/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
> >> that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> anyone since
>
> Anybody can sue anyone for anything and hence eat up lots of lawyer bills.
> Whether they'd win is another subject.  ;)
>
> Chris said that it is similar, and if MicroFormat Ltd's lawyer think it
> *might* confuse (and what lawyer's wouldn't think that when it is the most
> conservative option and they get to bill them to advise their client of
> such), they could send a cease and desist letter causing this group some
> pain.
>
> Anyway, either it will or will not happen; remains to be seen if it does.
>
> -Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Charles
> Iliya Krempeaux
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
>
> Hello,
>
> They are in an entirely different industries.  From my understanding of
> Trademark law... that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> anyone since (from the law's point-of-view) there is little chance of
> confusion between the 2 names (since they are in different industries).
>
> (Oh yeah... IANAL.  But unless trademarks law has radically changed.
> I think AL would say something to that effect too.)
>
>
> See ya
>
> On 11/7/06, Colin Barrett  wrote:
> > Perhaps we could trademark "?format" (greek-letter-mu format) and say
> > that the term "microformat" is just an expansion / alternate name for
> > it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.
> >
> > -Colin
> >
> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> >
> > > Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial
> > > entities lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
> > >
> > > -Mike Schinkel
> > > President; Guides, Inc.
> > > http://www.guidesinc.com
> > > (404) 474-8948
> > > (404) 276-1276 cell
> > > (404) 474-8949 fax
> > > skype: mike.schinkel
> > > mikes@guidesinc.com
> > > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> > > http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> > > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Chris Messina
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
> > > To: Microformats Discuss
> > > Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
> > >
> > > Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?
> > >
> > > "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in
> > > preservation microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have
> > > been entrusted with this most important and exacting project'."
> > >
> > > It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the
> > > preservation of
> > > data:
> > >
> > > http://microformat.co.uk
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > --
> > > Chris Messina
> > > Citizen Provocateur &
> > >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> > > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > > Skype: factoryjoe
> > > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
>
>     charles @ reptile.ca
>     supercanadian @ gmail.com
>
>     developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Nov  7 10:21:30 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Nov  7 10:21:37 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: <00a501c70296$892742b0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

On 11/7/06 9:59 AM, "Mike Schinkel"  wrote:

>>> You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D
>>> However, those solutions are against the grain of microformats.
>>> They'd no longer be simple, they'd no longer work together. There would
> be too many of them.
> 
> Then I am getting more and more disenchanted with the whole MicroFormat
> concept. Microformats will be nowhere nearly as useful I as first assumed it
> to be.

To be clear Mike, microformats were never envisioned to solve all format
problems, or metaformat problems etc.  That ocean boiling is better left to
many others who are pursuing those goals.

microformats have always been intended to simply solve common real-world
problems in an 80/20 fashion.  This limitation is quite deliberate, and is
key to microformats being *actually* useful in the immediate/nearterm
future, as opposed to *theoretically* useful in some ideal/imaginary world
where boil the ocean (BTO) solutions have some how magically altered human
culture and society as a whole to radically change behavior and adopt them
wholesale.

http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats

Thanks,

Tantek

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov  7 11:08:25 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov  7 11:09:40 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] class="url"?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200611071801.58570.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
	
Message-ID: <0+nHmxypmNUFFwa7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message , Tantek ?elik
 writes

>Incorrect .........................................^^^.................
>..^^^

You might like to remember that not everyone reading this mailing list
will be suing the same font, or font-type, or line-length, as you.

>the microformat class name "url" has the semantics of the "url"
>property as defined in vCard and iCalendar.

Then, 1-1 name-matching not withstanding, it's badly named, and would
have been more clearly named as, say, 'vurl' or 'hurl' (!) or 'h-url',
or some other name which signified that it's not just "a URL" but "a URL
for a vcard".

After all, "class=-"url" is not unlikely to occur, in other contexts.

>  See the hCard profile which defines the class name "url": http://micr
>oformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile

There are some problems with that page; I'll start a separate thread.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov  7 11:15:45 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov  7 11:17:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Problems with 'hcard-singular-properties' page
Message-ID: 


The 'wiki' page:

        

makes the unsubstantiated claims:

        n

        Legal precedents afford a person a single given-name and
        family-name

        fn

        legally organizations have only a single name


These claims are, I contend, bogus.

Firstly, no jurisdiction is given - does the author refer to the laws of
the USA? Or some other authority? Certainly, uFormats do not apply in
only one jurisdiction, but in all - do we have any experts here on
Chinese law, or the laws of Japan, Korea and Papua New Guinea (to pick a
few at random)?

Certainly, under English law, both claims are false.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 11:19:05 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Tue Nov  7 11:19:10 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-hcard?
In-Reply-To: <200611071807.55014.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
References: 
	<200611071807.55014.siegfried@rorkvell.de>
Message-ID: <21e770780611071119j2a8e9a94na326c81fc070b533@mail.gmail.com>

There have been some documented efforts for Auto-discovery of hCard
data, please see the wiki[1] and feel free to add your experiences.

-brian

[1] - http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Auto-Discovery

On 11/7/06, Siegfried Gipp  wrote:
> Am Dienstag, 7. November 2006 15:36 schrieb Adam Darowski:
>
> > Pardon me if this came up before on the list. But I'm a bit worried
> > about what type of/how much data is being marked up in hCard.
> > Sometimes it seems to just be names, titles, and organizations. So,
> > when these are converted to vCard, it doesn't really provide true
> > *contact* information. So, I'm throwing "rel-hcard" out there. You
> > post someone's name and add a link back to their own personal site
> > (which THERE is marked up in hCard). On that link, you put a
> > rel-hcard. This also helps make sure that content is up to date.
>
> Nice idea. This would work, if the target resource (i.e. the target html page)
> has a root element of class vcard, or in case of html, at least a  class="vcard">.
> Or the url points to a container with an id within that page. Then f.ex. the
> target page may contain some
> 

> ...
> 

>
> and then you might link to that address record with  href="http://where.ever/me.html#AlbertEinstein" rel="vcard">bla
>
> This would then have a similar meaning as the type attribute. The type
> attribute with its property defines the mime type of the target, the
> rel="vcard" would define a microformats address record as target. Nice idea.
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov  7 11:19:27 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov  7 11:21:03 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: 
References: <002101c6fe84$133f6de0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
	
Message-ID: <2eCH+gz$wNUFFwZA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message , Ryan
King  writes

>> The problem is that the current Microformat process is not at all
>>scalable.

>You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D

And you imply that "we" do not. Can you explain your reasoning, please,
including your definition of "we"?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov  7 11:32:28 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov  7 11:33:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <1bc4603e0611042201x39e1e6fekb9ad16e7c78d9be4@mail.gmail.com>
	<003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

In message <003f01c7020d$22ac3510$2102fea9@Guides.local>, Mike Schinkel
 writes

>>Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?

>Sounds like a trademark fight might occur

Rather than take such a negative approach, I've written to them, telling
them about uFs and offering to help them - for no fee - to mark up their
contact details with hCard.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 12:14:11 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Tue Nov  7 12:14:16 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611071018yec87e8cmcb08526966169f3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f301c702a9$4a2a8e60$2102fea9@Guides.local>

>> I highly doubt that it will cause real confusion; furthermore, who would
be sued? No one owns the microformats name besides the community
-- which is why it's a community mark. We really don't have any assets or
formal structure, so it would be rather difficult to bring this to court. 

The registered owner of the domain.  It would be a cease-and-desist suit,
not necessarily a suit for damages.  

I wouldn?t contact them.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Messina
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 1:18 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd

I highly doubt that it will cause real confusion; furthermore, who would be
sued? No one owns the microformats name besides the community
-- which is why it's a community mark. We really don't have any assets or
formal structure, so it would be rather difficult to bring this to court.

But that's highly unlikely as it is, since their name is singular. I mean,
we could do the right thing and contact them to let them know that we're not
looking to encrouch and maybe we'll be rewarded with good karma... Or we
could just fuggetaboutit.

;)

Chris

On 11/7/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
> >> that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> anyone since
>
> Anybody can sue anyone for anything and hence eat up lots of lawyer bills.
> Whether they'd win is another subject.  ;)
>
> Chris said that it is similar, and if MicroFormat Ltd's lawyer think 
> it
> *might* confuse (and what lawyer's wouldn't think that when it is the 
> most conservative option and they get to bill them to advise their 
> client of such), they could send a cease and desist letter causing 
> this group some pain.
>
> Anyway, either it will or will not happen; remains to be seen if it does.
>
> -Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of 
> Charles Iliya Krempeaux
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
>
> Hello,
>
> They are in an entirely different industries.  From my understanding 
> of Trademark law... that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> anyone since (from the law's point-of-view) there is little chance of 
> confusion between the 2 names (since they are in different industries).
>
> (Oh yeah... IANAL.  But unless trademarks law has radically changed.
> I think AL would say something to that effect too.)
>
>
> See ya
>
> On 11/7/06, Colin Barrett  wrote:
> > Perhaps we could trademark "?format" (greek-letter-mu format) and 
> > say that the term "microformat" is just an expansion / alternate 
> > name for it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.
> >
> > -Colin
> >
> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> >
> > > Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial 
> > > entities lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
> > >
> > > -Mike Schinkel
> > > President; Guides, Inc.
> > > http://www.guidesinc.com
> > > (404) 474-8948
> > > (404) 276-1276 cell
> > > (404) 474-8949 fax
> > > skype: mike.schinkel
> > > mikes@guidesinc.com
> > > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> > > http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> > > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf 
> > > Of Chris Messina
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
> > > To: Microformats Discuss
> > > Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
> > >
> > > Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?
> > >
> > > "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in 
> > > preservation microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have 
> > > been entrusted with this most important and exacting project'."
> > >
> > > It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the 
> > > preservation of
> > > data:
> > >
> > > http://microformat.co.uk
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > --
> > > Chris Messina
> > > Citizen Provocateur &
> > >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> > > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > > Skype: factoryjoe
> > > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
>
>     charles @ reptile.ca
>     supercanadian @ gmail.com
>
>     developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


--
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 12:16:16 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Tue Nov  7 12:16:21 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <00f401c702a9$94f289c0$2102fea9@Guides.local>

>> microformats have always been intended to simply solve common real-world
problems in an 80/20 fashion.  This limitation is quite deliberate, and is
key to microformats being *actually* useful in the immediate/nearterm
future, as opposed to *theoretically* useful in some ideal/imaginary world
where boil the ocean (BTO) solutions have some how magically altered human
culture and society as a whole to radically change behavior and adopt them
wholesale.

There is nothing in what I'm envisioning or proposing that would make them
theoretical.  I would just like to address more areas that it appears you
want to address.

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/



-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Tantek ?
elik
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 1:22 PM
To: microformats-discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal

On 11/7/06 9:59 AM, "Mike Schinkel"  wrote:

>>> You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D However, those 
>>> solutions are against the grain of microformats.
>>> They'd no longer be simple, they'd no longer work together. There 
>>> would
> be too many of them.
> 
> Then I am getting more and more disenchanted with the whole 
> MicroFormat concept. Microformats will be nowhere nearly as useful I 
> as first assumed it to be.

To be clear Mike, microformats were never envisioned to solve all format
problems, or metaformat problems etc.  That ocean boiling is better left to
many others who are pursuing those goals.

microformats have always been intended to simply solve common real-world
problems in an 80/20 fashion.  This limitation is quite deliberate, and is
key to microformats being *actually* useful in the immediate/nearterm
future, as opposed to *theoretically* useful in some ideal/imaginary world
where boil the ocean (BTO) solutions have some how magically altered human
culture and society as a whole to radically change behavior and adopt them
wholesale.

http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats

Thanks,

Tantek

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Nov  7 14:36:27 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Nov  7 14:36:38 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: <00f401c702a9$94f289c0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

On 11/7/06 12:16 PM, "Mike Schinkel"  wrote:

> There is nothing in what I'm envisioning or proposing that would make them
> theoretical.  I would just like to address more areas that it appears you
> want to address.

Per the microformats process, you may begin researching real world web
examples of *any* data type, and I encourage you to do so, as it will
increase the chances of a microformat being eventually developed to support
that data type, even if it is not developed immediately.

For example, one person did A LOT of research for "listings" many months
ago, but did not have any experience with brainstorming or designing formats
(this is a very important lesson - as *most* domain/topic experts are
actually *not* experts at format design and thus often do better to work
with folks with more experience designing formats rather than trying to do
it themselves - another reason why we don't want multiple lists - only so
many experienced format design experts to go around ;) and thus the effort
paused for a while, until months later, a few folks came along, found all
the pre-existing research, and based on that brainstormed the hListing
proposal and started experimenting with it.

I encourage you to prioritize more common data types over more obscure data
types (among the areas you want to address) as it will greatly increase both
the chance that other folks will help with the research, and help with the
effort in general.

Feel free to create a section for yourself on the to-do page, and add even
just a rough simple list of the data types you would like microformats for.

 http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do


Thanks,

Tantek

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 17:09:02 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Tue Nov  7 17:09:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: Timeline and microformats
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611061004t388baab4q1b70078206d0d1ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com>
	<21e770780611050455s5f683271ud0f7164af44fd151@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611060845t6e46a050y24f5e1aaaabfa9f4@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611061004t388baab4q1b70078206d0d1ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611071709t2c2d0956w7d1adde689c48078@mail.gmail.com>

Nice! I'll play around with this... thanks.

 Now, if only this[1] had been done up in microformats:

[1]http://www.shmula.com/blog/timelines/google-microsoft-yahoo/g-y-m.htm

Chris

On 11/6/06, David Janes  wrote:
> Try this [1].
>
> Notes:
> - all the '@' keys are derived information that may (or may not) be
> useful: in particular, look at @title and @url
> - because values in hCard and hCalendar can belong to multiple keys in
> interesting ways, I put all the applicable keys '.' separated. I also
> use this for expressing subkeys (i.e. 'n.given-name').
>
> I'm open to suggestions for improvements.
>
> Regards, etc...
>
> [1] http://tinyurl.com/y5re6r
>
> On 11/6/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> > I'd seen this work before and thought it the perfect implementation
> > opportunity for MFs. I even added the WordPress plugin to my about
> > page [1] -- but wht I really wanted to do was map the hAtom posts on
> > my blog (since K2 supports hAtom) on to the Simile UI as an
> > alternative browsing UI.
> >
> > If we can get an hAtom to JSON converter as well, perhaps this idea
> > could happen?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > [1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/whats-this-all-about
> >
> > On 11/5/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> > > On 11/4/06, Kevin Marks  wrote:
> > > > seen http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ ?
> > > >
> > > > I contacted the author - what's the best existing 'hCalendar to JSON'
> > > > tool?
> > >
> > > --- i'll spare everyone all the implementation details, but i have
> > > been trying to refactor alot of the XSLT code so that it is easier to
> > > choose an output format. Until i finished, the quickest and easiest
> > > hCal->JSON converter would be to take the open-source XSLT[1] and just
> > > replace the output text from DTSTART to the corresponding JSON
> > > ["dtstart": ... ]
> > >
> > > -brian
> > >
> > > [1] - http://hg.microformats.org/x2v
> > >
> > > > Begin forwarded message:
> > > >
> > > > > From: David Huynh 
> > > > > Date: November 3, 2006 6:54:57 AM PST
> > > > > To: Kevin Marks 
> > > > > Subject: Re: Timeline and microformats
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Kevin. As far as I understand, hCalendar is for embedding
> > > > > calendar attributes within HTML. Is there an efficient way to gather
> > > > > these attributes distributed all over the DOM? If you can do that,
> > > > > then it's not hard to construct event objects and feed them to
> > > > > Timeline.
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Kevin Marks wrote:
> > > > >> Your Timeline is a string piece of work, and it seems a perfect fit
> > > > >> for the hCalendar microformat:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This is very close to your existing xml structure, but is already
> > > > >> widely adopted across the web, for example by Yahoo Local,
> > > > >> upcoming.org and evdb.com
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > brian suda
> > > http://suda.co.uk
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris Messina
> > Citizen Provocateur &
> >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > Skype: factoryjoe
> > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://www.onamine.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 18:10:28 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov  7 18:10:08 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: Timeline and microformats
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611071709t2c2d0956w7d1adde689c48078@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4418b0095ce4b0ad3aac668e2bbdd0f3@technorati.com>
	<21e770780611050455s5f683271ud0f7164af44fd151@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611060845t6e46a050y24f5e1aaaabfa9f4@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611061004t388baab4q1b70078206d0d1ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611071709t2c2d0956w7d1adde689c48078@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On a slightly related note, I added the SIMILE timeline tool (and a  
few others) in the "tools for timelines" section in the history- 
examples page I started a little while back:

http://microformats.org/wiki/history-examples#Tools_for_Timelines

There are a few other tools/resources on that list that might be of  
interest.

Best,
Jeremy Boggs
From rkhare at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 09:08:02 2006
From: rkhare at gmail.com (Rohit Khare)
Date: Wed Nov  8 09:08:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.
Message-ID: <7f66e560611080908w55dfd628y557942f699d0283d@mail.gmail.com>

> The registered owner of the domain

Umm, as the "owner," I'd like to suggest we all calm down and let
things lie. As the actual registrant of the domains
microformats.org/com under the auspices of CommerceNet, LLC, I'm sure
that any issues of our proper use of it would fall under the rubric of
our continued informal support of the microformats community. (We're
an independent think tank that grew out of a nonprofit membership
consortium in the 90's - for more, check out our website )

But more prosaically, one of the achievements of the cooperative
microformats effort is that it *has not* required a lot of 'process'
-- and that, even so, this list is *not* the place to begin throwing
around legal concerns.

This is a public, archived forum, and without reference to the merits
of anyone's points made today, this is one of the very few categories
of things that I suggest should be addressed directly to me (or
Tantek) before escalating to the community.

Thanks,
  Dr. Rohit Khare
  Director, CommerceNet Labs (Consulting)
---
Via BlackBerry
From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 12:33:47 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Wed Nov  8 12:33:51 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.
In-Reply-To: <7f66e560611080908w55dfd628y557942f699d0283d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>

>> suggest we all calm down 

Just for the record, I was never no calm about it. I only brought it up as
something to be aware of and then several people responded that (in essense)
my concerns were invalid, and I was simply replying that I disagreed and
felt that it was a "potential" issue.  I'm totally calm about it; I just
felt them need to clarify things so as to be lucid about the situation.

>> this list is *not* the place to begin throwing around legal concerns.

That feels like a slap at me, so I'm going to slap back. 

You may feel that way, but there has been no related-guidance prior to this
email.  As sich I do not appreciate being chastized in a public forum for
voilating your choice of how you would like things to be handled when your
guidance on how to handle the situation was given in retrospect.

Respectfully,

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/





-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Rohit
Khare
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:08 PM
To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.

> The registered owner of the domain

Umm, as the "owner," I'd like to suggest we all calm down and let things
lie. As the actual registrant of the domains microformats.org/com under the
auspices of CommerceNet, LLC, I'm sure that any issues of our proper use of
it would fall under the rubric of our continued informal support of the
microformats community. (We're an independent think tank that grew out of a
nonprofit membership consortium in the 90's - for more, check out our
website )

But more prosaically, one of the achievements of the cooperative
microformats effort is that it *has not* required a lot of 'process'
-- and that, even so, this list is *not* the place to begin throwing around
legal concerns.

This is a public, archived forum, and without reference to the merits of
anyone's points made today, this is one of the very few categories of things
that I suggest should be addressed directly to me (or
Tantek) before escalating to the community.

Thanks,
  Dr. Rohit Khare
  Director, CommerceNet Labs (Consulting)
---
Via BlackBerry
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 13:04:53 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Wed Nov  8 13:04:57 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.
In-Reply-To: <00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <7f66e560611080908w55dfd628y557942f699d0283d@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611081304t702fa5f7g7c8b463440cf9762@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Mike, I don't think that Rohit was talking about you specifically.
In fact, I'll take the heat for bringing this up and stoking the
embers in the first place.

Rohit et al's points stand: this isn't the place to discuss legal
matters, nor to conjecture about what might or might not happen.

I should have been a bit wiser about bringing it up on the open web;
personally I've learned a valuable lesson and am glad to have such
competent stewardship guiding the list generally.

I'd be happy to see this matter retired for now as there's nothing
else of good use that can come from further conjectures. My apologies
for bringing this up and causing a stir; now let's get back to the
core goal of this list and look at what we can submit for the Web 2.0
Expo...!

Chris

On 11/8/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
> >> suggest we all calm down
>
> Just for the record, I was never no calm about it. I only brought it up as
> something to be aware of and then several people responded that (in essense)
> my concerns were invalid, and I was simply replying that I disagreed and
> felt that it was a "potential" issue.  I'm totally calm about it; I just
> felt them need to clarify things so as to be lucid about the situation.
>
> >> this list is *not* the place to begin throwing around legal concerns.
>
> That feels like a slap at me, so I'm going to slap back.
>
> You may feel that way, but there has been no related-guidance prior to this
> email.  As sich I do not appreciate being chastized in a public forum for
> voilating your choice of how you would like things to be handled when your
> guidance on how to handle the situation was given in retrospect.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> -Mike Schinkel
> http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Rohit
> Khare
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:08 PM
> To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.
>
> > The registered owner of the domain
>
> Umm, as the "owner," I'd like to suggest we all calm down and let things
> lie. As the actual registrant of the domains microformats.org/com under the
> auspices of CommerceNet, LLC, I'm sure that any issues of our proper use of
> it would fall under the rubric of our continued informal support of the
> microformats community. (We're an independent think tank that grew out of a
> nonprofit membership consortium in the 90's - for more, check out our
> website )
>
> But more prosaically, one of the achievements of the cooperative
> microformats effort is that it *has not* required a lot of 'process'
> -- and that, even so, this list is *not* the place to begin throwing around
> legal concerns.
>
> This is a public, archived forum, and without reference to the merits of
> anyone's points made today, this is one of the very few categories of things
> that I suggest should be addressed directly to me (or
> Tantek) before escalating to the community.
>
> Thanks,
>   Dr. Rohit Khare
>   Director, CommerceNet Labs (Consulting)
> ---
> Via BlackBerry
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Nov  8 14:53:57 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Nov  8 14:55:38 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.
In-Reply-To: <00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <7f66e560611080908w55dfd628y557942f699d0283d@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

In message <00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>, Mike Schinkel
 writes

>there has been no related-guidance prior to this email.  As sich I do
>not appreciate being chastized in a public forum for voilating your
>choice of how you would like things to be handled when your guidance on
>how to handle the situation was given in retrospect.

This does seem to be a regular occurrence :-(

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From timber at lava.net  Wed Nov  8 19:09:10 2006
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Nov  8 19:09:14 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.
In-Reply-To: 
References: <7f66e560611080908w55dfd628y557942f699d0283d@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 8, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> In message <00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>, Mike  
> Schinkel
>  writes
>
>> there has been no related-guidance prior to this email.  As sich I do
>> not appreciate being chastized in a public forum for voilating your
>> choice of how you would like things to be handled when your  
>> guidance on
>> how to handle the situation was given in retrospect.
>
> This does seem to be a regular occurrence :-(

I'm not sure it's my place to point this out, but Andy, didn't you  
contact MicroFormat, Ltd., on your own?

Also, I don't see how this applies to your species proposal and that  
situation.

-Colin
From bjonkman at sobac.com  Thu Nov  9 00:21:19 2006
From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Thu Nov  9 00:58:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <00f301c702a9$4a2a8e60$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <1bc4603e0611071018yec87e8cmcb08526966169f3e@mail.gmail.com>,
	<00f301c702a9$4a2a8e60$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <45529EAF.26796.400864@bjonkman.sobac.com>

How about a courtesy link on the front page of the Web site: 

If this is not the Microformats you're looking for, perhaps you meant  said
about "RE: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd" on 7 Nov 2006 at 15:14

> >> I highly doubt that it will cause real confusion; furthermore, who would
> >> be sued? No one owns the microformats name besides the community
> >> -- which is why it's a community mark. We really don't have any assets or
> >> formal structure, so it would be rather difficult to bring this to court. 
> 
> The registered owner of the domain.  It would be a cease-and-desist suit,
> not necessarily a suit for damages.  
> 
> I wouldn?t contact them.
> 
> -Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Chris
> Messina
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 1:18 PM
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd
> 
> I highly doubt that it will cause real confusion; furthermore, who would be
> sued? No one owns the microformats name besides the community
> -- which is why it's a community mark. We really don't have any assets or
> formal structure, so it would be rather difficult to bring this to court.
> 
> But that's highly unlikely as it is, since their name is singular. I mean,
> we could do the right thing and contact them to let them know that we're not
> looking to encrouch and maybe we'll be rewarded with good karma... Or we
> could just fuggetaboutit.
> 
> ;)
> 
> Chris
> 
> On 11/7/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
> > >> that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> > anyone since
> >
> > Anybody can sue anyone for anything and hence eat up lots of lawyer bills.
> > Whether they'd win is another subject.  ;)
> >
> > Chris said that it is similar, and if MicroFormat Ltd's lawyer think 
> > it
> > *might* confuse (and what lawyer's wouldn't think that when it is the 
> > most conservative option and they get to bill them to advise their 
> > client of such), they could send a cease and desist letter causing 
> > this group some pain.
> >
> > Anyway, either it will or will not happen; remains to be seen if it does.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of 
> > Charles Iliya Krempeaux
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:57 PM
> > To: Microformats Discuss
> > Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > They are in an entirely different industries.  From my understanding 
> > of Trademark law... that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> > anyone since (from the law's point-of-view) there is little chance of 
> > confusion between the 2 names (since they are in different industries).
> >
> > (Oh yeah... IANAL.  But unless trademarks law has radically changed.
> > I think AL would say something to that effect too.)
> >
> >
> > See ya
> >
> > On 11/7/06, Colin Barrett  wrote:
> > > Perhaps we could trademark "?format" (greek-letter-mu format) and 
> > > say that the term "microformat" is just an expansion / alternate 
> > > name for it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.
> > >
> > > -Colin
> > >
> > > On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ouch.  Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial 
> > > > entities lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
> > > >
> > > > -Mike Schinkel
> > > > President; Guides, Inc.
> > > > http://www.guidesinc.com
> > > > (404) 474-8948
> > > > (404) 276-1276 cell
> > > > (404) 474-8949 fax
> > > > skype: mike.schinkel
> > > > mikes@guidesinc.com
> > > > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
> > > > http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschinkel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
> > > > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf 
> > > > Of Chris Messina
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:01 AM
> > > > To: Microformats Discuss
> > > > Subject: [uf-discuss] MicroFormat Ltd
> > > >
> > > > Have you guys ever heard of MicroFormat Ltd?
> > > >
> > > > "Microformat has a long and proud history of involvement in 
> > > > preservation microfilming, and I am wholly delighted that we have 
> > > > been entrusted with this most important and exacting project'."
> > > >
> > > > It seems fitting, for some reason, since they're into the 
> > > > preservation of
> > > > data:
> > > >
> > > > http://microformat.co.uk
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Chris Messina
> > > > Citizen Provocateur &
> > > >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > > > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > > > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> > > > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > > > Skype: factoryjoe
> > > > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
> >
> >     charles @ reptile.ca
> >     supercanadian @ gmail.com
> >
> >     developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
> >
> 
> --
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> 


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov  9 01:10:48 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov  9 01:12:11 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat, Ltd.
In-Reply-To: 
References: <7f66e560611080908w55dfd628y557942f699d0283d@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a101c70375$31eab1f0$2102fea9@Guides.local>
	
	
Message-ID: 

In message , Colin
Barrett  writes

>>> there has been no related-guidance prior to this email.  As sich I do
>>> not appreciate being chastized in a public forum for voilating your
>>> choice of how you would like things to be handled when your
>>>guidance on
>>> how to handle the situation was given in retrospect.
>>
>> This does seem to be a regular occurrence :-(
>
>I'm not sure it's my place to point this out, but Andy, didn't you
>contact MicroFormat, Ltd., on your own?

You know I did, because I've already said so, here.

>Also, I don't see how this applies to your species proposal and that
>situation.

It doesn't.

Did you have a point?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Thu Nov  9 09:33:56 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Thu Nov  9 09:34:03 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: <45529EAF.26796.400864@bjonkman.sobac.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/9/06 12:21 AM, "Bob Jonkman"  wrote:

> How about a courtesy link on the front page of the Web site:
> 

I've created a disambiguation page on the wiki for the term "microformat"
based on some wording that Chris Messina authored.  I think this should
suffice for now.

 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformat

Tantek

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Thu Nov  9 09:46:50 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Thu Nov  9 09:46:55 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: MicroFormat Ltd
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45529EAF.26796.400864@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611090946t1f0a4a8fm4497173b0e1a5069@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/9/06, Tantek ?elik  wrote:
>
> I've created a disambiguation page on the wiki for the term "microformat"
> based on some wording that Chris Messina authored.  I think this should
> suffice for now.
>
>  http://microformats.org/wiki/microformat

Looks good and should suffice.

Chris

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Thu Nov  9 10:29:55 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Thu Nov  9 10:30:04 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats at Web 2.0 Expo
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611091029j4de3c58ey96b2365b79c59cc3@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,

Kevin Marks and I talked with Jen Pahlka and Brady Forrest of CMP
Media and O'Reilly (respectively) about a microformats session at Web
2.0 Expo in April the other night. Brady needs a paragraph describing what
we'd like to do -- and there's no reason we couldn't split up and do
one "programming w/ microformats" track coupled with a "designing for
microformats" track...

I'm also on the design track program committee and have some
influence generally over what's presented in the workshops...
microformats and identity feature prominently so far, but I am keen to
contextualize this stuff in real people's work (i.e. "microformats are
a pragmatic tool for creating web applications, here's how", etc).

So, our tasks are to come up with:

1. a paragraph by the end of the week describing our take on how
microformats could be presented at the Web 2.0 Expo
2. I need to fill out the application form by next week in order to
get our topic included.
(http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/09/web_20_expo_cfp.html)

I could certainly use some help putting this together -- and suggest
that we use the wiki to formulate our summary and application.

Thoughts/comments?

Chris


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From iand at internetalchemy.org  Thu Nov  9 11:29:59 2006
From: iand at internetalchemy.org (Ian Davis)
Date: Thu Nov  9 11:30:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats at Web 2.0 Expo
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611091029j4de3c58ey96b2365b79c59cc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0611091029j4de3c58ey96b2365b79c59cc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1b1dfe1c0611091129w23c94b48i8557b600708aacd1@mail.gmail.com>

I'm at the Web 2.0 summit. Any MF folks around who want to meet up?

Ian
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Thu Nov  9 22:54:51 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Thu Nov  9 22:54:55 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats at Web 2.0 Expo
In-Reply-To: <1b1dfe1c0611091129w23c94b48i8557b600708aacd1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0611091029j4de3c58ey96b2365b79c59cc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1b1dfe1c0611091129w23c94b48i8557b600708aacd1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611092254x6c9d0cechca995a891b7efbec@mail.gmail.com>

If you're around tomorrow night from 5-7pm (Friday) we're having
Citizen Cocktails at our new coworking Citizen Space...

http://upcoming.org/event/122345/

Come on by!

Chris

On 11/9/06, Ian Davis  wrote:
> I'm at the Web 2.0 summit. Any MF folks around who want to meet up?
>
> Ian
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Fri Nov 10 04:43:16 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Fri Nov 10 04:43:21 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki Language Translations...
Message-ID: <21e770780611100443q20302d6ar28a3cbdcf2e7d93f@mail.gmail.com>

There has been alot of work recently in getting Wiki pages into
several different languages. Thanks to everyone who has been helping.

I stumbled across the Google Trends page and typed in "Microformats",
we have seen some growth in 2006! The interesting thing is that they
give a break down of languages, Japanese, English, Portuguese and
German are all tops on the list. I don't know if that is because there
is documentation in those languages, or if there is documentation
because there is interest from those folks?
http://google.co.uk/trends?q=microformats&ctab=2&geo=all&date=all

It is certainly comforting to know that when you do translate those
pages, there are people out there who are truely interested and will
read them.

Thanks for all your help and keep-up the good work,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From ryan at ryancannon.com  Sun Nov 12 14:24:45 2006
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Sun Nov 12 14:24:53 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO and Extra Markup
Message-ID: 

Greetings list,

I've looked around for answers to this before, but haven't been able  
to find
anything conclusive. With XOXO, what is the capacity for extra  
markup? When
marking up structured documents, I usually end up with something like


    
     
  1. Level 1
    
         
      
             
    1. Level 2
      
                 
        
                     
      1. Level 3
        
                         
        Text...
        
                     
        2. 
                     
      2. Level 3
        
                         
        Text...
        
                     
        3. 
                 
      
             
      2. 
             
    2. Level 2
      
                 
        
                     
      1. Level 3
        
                         
        Text...
        
                     
        2. 
                     
      2. Level 3
        
                         
        Text...
        
                     
        3. 
                 
      
             
      3. 
         
    
     
    2. 



Is this kosher, or is XOXO strict about its content?
It seems to me that hresume lends itself very well to this kind of  
markup.



-- 
Ryan

http://RyanCannon.com



From drernie at opendarwin.org  Sun Nov 12 16:16:39 2006
From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar)
Date: Sun Nov 12 16:16:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO and Extra Markup
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <72CA1AC8-E168-4AC4-B923-26E7FCEEBCDB@opendarwin.org>

Hi Ryan,

Sure, whatever -- as long as it is legal HTML, it shouldn't be a  
problem.  You might want to check how S5 handles it:

http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/xoxo-structure-ref.html

Cheers,
- enp

On Nov 12, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Ryan Cannon wrote:

> Greetings list,
>
> I've looked around for answers to this before, but haven't been  
> able to find
> anything conclusive. With XOXO, what is the capacity for extra  
> markup? When
> marking up structured documents, I usually end up with something like
>
> 
    
>     
  1. Level 1
    
>         
      
>             
    1. Level 2
      
>                 
        
>                     
      1. Level 3
        
>                         
        Text...
        
>                     
        2. 
>                     
      2. Level 3
        
>                         
        Text...
        
>                     
        3. 
>                 
      
>             
      2. 
>             
    2. Level 2
      
>                 
        
>                     
      1. Level 3
        
>                         
        Text...
        
>                     
        2. 
>                     
      2. Level 3
        
>                         
        Text...
        
>                     
        3. 
>                 
      
>             
      3. 
>         
    
>     
    2. 
> 

>
> Is this kosher, or is XOXO strict about its content?
> It seems to me that hresume lends itself very well to this kind of  
> markup.
>
>
>
> -- 
> Ryan
>
> http://RyanCannon.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From singpolyma at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 07:18:05 2006
From: singpolyma at gmail.com (Stephen Paul Weber)
Date: Mon Nov 13 07:18:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO and Extra Markup
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <6991f8e00611130718t2dbf6873pc29d1c42ca2e6982@mail.gmail.com>

Definitely kosher.  One thing that I use a fair bit in my work (some
of it at the XOXO Blog ) is these two
'extender' methods that seem to be at least semi-standard on
microformats.org :


-lists:


    
   
  1.  Item
      
    
         
    Extended Field 1
    
            
    Data
    
         
    Extended Field 2
    
            
    Data
    
      
    
   
    2. 



 tags


    
   
  1. Item
    2. 



On 11/12/06, Ryan Cannon  wrote:
> Greetings list,
>
> I've looked around for answers to this before, but haven't been able
> to find
> anything conclusive. With XOXO, what is the capacity for extra
> markup? When
> marking up structured documents, I usually end up with something like
>
> 
    
>      
  1. Level 1
    
>          
      
>              
    1. Level 2
      
>                  
        
>                      
      1. Level 3
        
>                          
        Text...
        
>                      
        2. 
>                      
      2. Level 3
        
>                          
        Text...
        
>                      
        3. 
>                  
      
>              
      2. 
>              
    2. Level 2
      
>                  
        
>                      
      1. Level 3
        
>                          
        Text...
        
>                      
        2. 
>                      
      2. Level 3
        
>                          
        Text...
        
>                      
        3. 
>                  
      
>              
      3. 
>          
    
>      
    2. 
> 

>
> Is this kosher, or is XOXO strict about its content?
> It seems to me that hresume lends itself very well to this kind of
> markup.
>
>
>
> --
> Ryan
>
> http://RyanCannon.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>



-- 
- Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer


MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolyma@gmail.com
ICQ/AIM: 103332966
BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 08:39:44 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Nov 13 08:39:51 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
Message-ID: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>

I have had a few free cycles this last week so i have been making some
head-way with the citation microformat.

I took some to to re-organize the XSLT code, so now it should be alot
easier to create new transformations. So i have added Dublin Core and
RIS to possible output types.

This is the new home for all the citation transformations:
http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcite/

Once we get our version system setup for a citation test suite, i will
be creating HTML and cite-specific formats and will need some feedback
on other things to check-in (anyone else is more than welcome to
create some tests too *hint* *hint* :) ).

There have been a few hiccups that i am starting to uncover - so any
guidance is welcomed.
1) The term "Pages" i think that actually has two meanings which i
have confused in the implied schema. The first being "This book is 45
pages long" which is metadata about the book, and is in the realm of
media-info microformat. Then there is "this sites pages 43-45" meaning
a location. So now we need figure out what we are to do? does the
first metadata become 45 and the
citation stay "pages" or do we have "start-page" and "end-page" or
something else? Some systems use "pages" as a string "43-45" others
have it broken out into SP (start page) 43 EP (end page) 45. I'm not
sure how they handle references in something like a newspaper where
the article starts on page 1 and then jumps to page 43... that is not
start-end, but a list of pages. Then that leads to our
"singularization" of plural terms. In vCard it is categories (plural)
but we use "category" singular and just let you have multiple
instances... can "pages" go the same way? the first instance of
class="page" is the start page, and the last instance if the last
page? Any suggestions?

2) one of the manditory properties across several different citation
formats is TYPE. Is this a Book, Journal entry, Thesis, Video, etc.
Usually and enumerated list of values. The issue is that EVERYONE does
it differently... so should hCite have an enumerated list of types
such as "Thesis" and that maps to bibTeX "mastersthesis" and RIS
"THES" or should that be something transforming apps handle. I'm not
sure how to handle this (i'd prefer not to use enumerated lists of
possible values) but if we allow open values, and i write Thesis and that gets converted to a citation
format, it will fail most of the formats because the string "Thesis"
is not a valid type. I also think it is silly then to do THES and then be valid for only one format. This
is where a hard-coded list of values in hCite would help, hCite's
"thesis" can be interpreted into various formats' TYPE values -
although i don't like that idea, but don't have any other suggestions
except to ignore it and let the implementor figure it out? Any
comments?

Also, i have wiki-fied several citation examples from a previous
email, with accessed date. I have not updated any implied-schemas to
reflect any changes yet. I haven't outputted the accessed date into
BibTeX, RIS or Dublin Core because i don't know what field they equate
too? Alot of this will get flushed out when we start building examples
and tests.

All input is welcomed.

Thanks,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From ryan at ryancannon.com  Mon Nov 13 09:20:29 2006
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Mon Nov 13 09:20:38 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <200611131640.kADGeOkS026062@microformats.org>
References: <200611131640.kADGeOkS026062@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <88EF1390-6055-4AFE-AEC2-4DF0157BBB56@ryancannon.com>

I?ve been working on my resume this weekend, and have been
slopping together an hCite-ish beast for my publications. One thing
about type: I don't think this should be?or at least should have to
be?visible data. In most use cases that I can think of: a blogger
linking to another blog, a list of citations at the end of a
scholarly article, citation-hunting through a database, etc. The
difference between ?article,? ?book,? ?incollection? and ?conference?
are either not relevant or are implied by the types of data that the
citation contains. I?d much prefer to see:

     ...

Than

     Article: ...

I?ll check over the wiki and make sure my citations match the proposal,
and be sure to post problems questions.

-- 
Ryan

http://RyanCannon.com



On Nov 13, 2006, at 11:40 AM, microformats-discuss- 
request@microformats.org wrote:

> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:39:44 +0000
> From: "Brian Suda" 
> Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress

...

>
>
> 2) one of the manditory properties across several different citation
> formats is TYPE. Is this a Book, Journal entry, Thesis, Video, etc.
> Usually and enumerated list of values. The issue is that EVERYONE does
> it differently... so should hCite have an enumerated list of types
> such as "Thesis" and that maps to bibTeX "mastersthesis" and RIS
> "THES" or should that be something transforming apps handle. I'm not
> sure how to handle this (i'd prefer not to use enumerated lists of
> possible values) but if we allow open values, and i write  class="type">Thesis and that gets converted to a citation
> format, it will fail most of the formats because the string "Thesis"
> is not a valid type. I also think it is silly then to do  class="type">THES and then be valid for only one format. This
> is where a hard-coded list of values in hCite would help, hCite's
> "thesis" can be interpreted into various formats' TYPE values -
> although i don't like that idea, but don't have any other suggestions
> except to ignore it and let the implementor figure it out? Any
> comments?


From fberriman at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 09:37:47 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Mon Nov 13 09:37:53 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/13/06, Brian Suda  wrote:

> There have been a few hiccups that i am starting to uncover - so any
> guidance is welcomed.
> 1) The term "Pages" i think that actually has two meanings which i
> have confused in the implied schema. The first being "This book is 45
> pages long" which is metadata about the book, and is in the realm of
> media-info microformat. Then there is "this sites pages 43-45" meaning
> a location. So now we need figure out what we are to do? does the
> first metadata become 45 and the
> citation stay "pages" or do we have "start-page" and "end-page" or
> something else? Some systems use "pages" as a string "43-45" others
> have it broken out into SP (start page) 43 EP (end page) 45. I'm not
> sure how they handle references in something like a newspaper where
> the article starts on page 1 and then jumps to page 43... that is not
> start-end, but a list of pages. Then that leads to our
> "singularization" of plural terms. In vCard it is categories (plural)
> but we use "category" singular and just let you have multiple
> instances... can "pages" go the same way? the first instance of
> class="page" is the start page, and the last instance if the last
> page? Any suggestions?

Way to make my brain ache...

If I'm understanding you right (and I'm thinking on the spot), you
want to say that you're referencing pages W, X and Y out of Z.  Surely
Pages 43 - 45 is an abbreviated way of saying "this comes from pages
43, 44 and 45 of a 100 page long book".  Treating it as an
abbreviation also solves the newspaper issue, since you'd be saying
"this comes from page 1 and 14 of a 50 page newpaper".  No?  Silly
probably.  I was just thinking about Jeremy Keith's "this Thursday"
example of an abbreviation (being really a short hand for this
Thursday's full date).

Listing pages individually, out of a total number of pages, rather
than as a range, makes total sense to me.  So "14, 16 of 50."  is fine.  Start-page and end-page is a
bit too restrictive imho.



-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 10:35:02 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Mon Nov 13 10:35:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/13/06, Brian Suda  wrote:

> 1) The term "Pages" i think that actually has two meanings which i
> have confused in the implied schema. The first being "This book is 45
> pages long" which is metadata about the book, and is in the realm of
> media-info microformat. Then there is "this sites pages 43-45" meaning
> a location. So now we need figure out what we are to do?

Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's
not relevant to citations.

Beyond that, there are two kinds of locators of this sort:

1) to indicate the place of an item within a larger container

2) so-called "point locators" which indicate specific
pages/paragraphs/etc. within a cited item; typically included in
citations (Doe, 1999, p12).

For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just
"pages." Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages
can be discontinuous.

> 2) one of the manditory properties across several different citation
> formats is TYPE. Is this a Book, Journal entry, Thesis, Video, etc.
> Usually and enumerated list of values. The issue is that EVERYONE does
> it differently...

And from my own experience, this is not at all easy to do. I've been
talking about this issue of late with the Zotero guys, because every
week people keep asking for more types on their forums. But if you
just keep adding them without some kind of design logic -- and a
mapping to the formatting system and its type logic -- you end up with
a mess.

So, I do think a list is important, but I suggest that this not be the
focus for hCite 1.0, and maybe see if we can find some agreement as a
separate effort.

Bruce
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 11:07:45 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:07:49 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611131107s4fed47b1kd68894c2f23f7c03@mail.gmail.com>

In terms of "type"... How important is that designation? If you have
an open-ended list, isn't that similar to a tag or is there real
consequence to its type-designation?

Chris

On 11/13/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> I have had a few free cycles this last week so i have been making some
> head-way with the citation microformat.
>
> I took some to to re-organize the XSLT code, so now it should be alot
> easier to create new transformations. So i have added Dublin Core and
> RIS to possible output types.
>
> This is the new home for all the citation transformations:
> http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcite/
>
> Once we get our version system setup for a citation test suite, i will
> be creating HTML and cite-specific formats and will need some feedback
> on other things to check-in (anyone else is more than welcome to
> create some tests too *hint* *hint* :) ).
>
> There have been a few hiccups that i am starting to uncover - so any
> guidance is welcomed.
> 1) The term "Pages" i think that actually has two meanings which i
> have confused in the implied schema. The first being "This book is 45
> pages long" which is metadata about the book, and is in the realm of
> media-info microformat. Then there is "this sites pages 43-45" meaning
> a location. So now we need figure out what we are to do? does the
> first metadata become 45 and the
> citation stay "pages" or do we have "start-page" and "end-page" or
> something else? Some systems use "pages" as a string "43-45" others
> have it broken out into SP (start page) 43 EP (end page) 45. I'm not
> sure how they handle references in something like a newspaper where
> the article starts on page 1 and then jumps to page 43... that is not
> start-end, but a list of pages. Then that leads to our
> "singularization" of plural terms. In vCard it is categories (plural)
> but we use "category" singular and just let you have multiple
> instances... can "pages" go the same way? the first instance of
> class="page" is the start page, and the last instance if the last
> page? Any suggestions?
>
> 2) one of the manditory properties across several different citation
> formats is TYPE. Is this a Book, Journal entry, Thesis, Video, etc.
> Usually and enumerated list of values. The issue is that EVERYONE does
> it differently... so should hCite have an enumerated list of types
> such as "Thesis" and that maps to bibTeX "mastersthesis" and RIS
> "THES" or should that be something transforming apps handle. I'm not
> sure how to handle this (i'd prefer not to use enumerated lists of
> possible values) but if we allow open values, and i write  class="type">Thesis and that gets converted to a citation
> format, it will fail most of the formats because the string "Thesis"
> is not a valid type. I also think it is silly then to do  class="type">THES and then be valid for only one format. This
> is where a hard-coded list of values in hCite would help, hCite's
> "thesis" can be interpreted into various formats' TYPE values -
> although i don't like that idea, but don't have any other suggestions
> except to ignore it and let the implementor figure it out? Any
> comments?
>
> Also, i have wiki-fied several citation examples from a previous
> email, with accessed date. I have not updated any implied-schemas to
> reflect any changes yet. I haven't outputted the accessed date into
> BibTeX, RIS or Dublin Core because i don't know what field they equate
> too? Alot of this will get flushed out when we start building examples
> and tests.
>
> All input is welcomed.
>
> Thanks,
> -brian
>
> --
> brian suda
> http://suda.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
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> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


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  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
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From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Nov 13 11:07:57 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:08:16 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just
> "pages." Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages
> can be discontinuous.

So what would that look like in markup for, say, "pages 10-50"?  We  
don't have to list every single page, do we?

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 11:11:34 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:12:44 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda  writes

>There have been a few hiccups that i am starting to uncover - so any
>guidance is welcomed.

>I'm not
>sure how they handle references in something like a newspaper where
>the article starts on page 1 and then jumps to page 43... that is not
>start-end, but a list of pages.

COinS (;
) handles that, as a character string.

Consider this possible solution:

   
        45, 46, 48, 50
   

A single- page article could be:

      45

or the absence of a "pages" class could be taken to imply that the
article runs continuously from the start page to the end page.

Remember that page "numbers" might not be numerical, but (in the case,
say, of an introduction or preface) use roman numerals or some other
scheme (COinS, op. cit.).

>I haven't outputted the accessed date


There's no such word as "outputted". Have you ever putted something in a
place, or did you just put it there?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 11:20:15 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:20:22 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>

Well, the mark-up might look something like:
pages 10-50
or
pages 10-50

or (another idea, which doesn't mean much any more) was

pages 10-50

But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just
capture the string "pages 10-50". So i think something akin to the
first example here will work.

-brian

On 11/13/06, Scott Reynen  wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>
> > For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just
> > "pages." Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages
> > can be discontinuous.
>
> So what would that look like in markup for, say, "pages 10-50"?  We
> don't have to list every single page, do we?
>
> Peace,
> Scott
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 11:23:49 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:23:52 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/13/06, Scott Reynen  wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>
> > For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just
> > "pages." Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages
> > can be discontinuous.
>
> So what would that look like in markup for, say, "pages 10-50"?  We
> don't have to list every single page, do we?

Sometimes you have periodical articles that span multiple
discontinuous pages, and they all get included; e.g. "1-5, 9".

OTOH, legal citations typically list only the "first page."

Bruce
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 11:26:07 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:27:34 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

In message
, Frances
Berriman  writes

>Surely Pages 43 - 45 is an abbreviated way of saying "this comes from
>pages 43, 44 and 45 of a 100 page long book".

How does that differ from pages 43-45 of a 48 page book, or a 480 page
book?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 11:28:56 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:29:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611131107s4fed47b1kd68894c2f23f7c03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611131107s4fed47b1kd68894c2f23f7c03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/13/06, Chris Messina  wrote:

> In terms of "type"... How important is that designation? If you have
> an open-ended list, isn't that similar to a tag or is there real
> consequence to its type-designation?

It's very important for conversion into some formats (BibTeX, RIS,
etc.), and sort of important too for formatting in the sense the there
are different conventions (rules) for formatting different kinds of
references.

Note, though, that as someone who designed both a citation style
language and code to format citations, I think sometimes people get
too distracted by type. Often times, formatting rules are more about
other details than type.

For example, someone on the Zotero forums recently claimed "edited
books" get formatted differently than "books." Well, not really. What
gets formatted differently are editors and authors (the former gets a
role label added to it).

Bruce
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 11:28:23 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:29:32 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
, Bruce
D'Arcus  writes

>Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's
>not relevant to citations.

I disagree, not least because people often cite a whole book, rather
than part of it.

>For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just
>"pages." Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages
>can be discontinuous.

But what about inter-operability with other standards?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 11:29:54 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:30:03 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611131107s4fed47b1kd68894c2f23f7c03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611131107s4fed47b1kd68894c2f23f7c03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780611131129i76e1ee8bpb70c02b4ace4d19d@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/13/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> In terms of "type"... How important is that designation? If you have
> an open-ended list, isn't that similar to a tag or is there real
> consequence to its type-designation?

Well, TYPE seems to be pretty important, it is manditory by (atleast)
RIS and BibTeX so far. Both of those have enumerated lists of possible
values, which there duplicate values (e.g. Book, Thesis, etc.) but
they use different terms (e.g. "mastersthesis" or "THES") so what gets
used for the hCite type? or do we create our own list that maps to the
80% of common types.

We could use tags, but then we are still picking out the tag portion
as the TYPE value. You could do that already now with "Keywords" in
hCite and "Skills" in hResume and "Categories" in hCard. And the value
that gets extracted would need to still have to match to some sort of
logical citation type.

I ate a  yesterday.

I'm not sure how that helps us?

whereas:
This is a  i read
yesterday.

That helps on two fronts, #1 we have an established type (book) and #2
we get bonus points for making it a tag so now we can search on all
books! That's great for a blog, but that tag space on Amazon wouldn't
really narrow things down much :)

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Nov 13 11:58:45 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Nov 13 11:59:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38AF194A-E184-4B00-983E-B4903D577205@randomchaos.com>

On Nov 13, 2006, at 1:20 PM, Brian Suda wrote:

> Well, the mark-up might look something like:
> pages 10-50
> or
> pages 10-50
>
> or (another idea, which doesn't mean much any more) was
>
> pages 10-50
>
> But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just
> capture the string "pages 10-50". So i think something akin to the
> first example here will work.

Are we talking about treating that string as a defined format that  
will allow it to be parsed into specific pages, or just as a string?   
This might be outside the scope of hCite, but one use case I had in  
mind requiring specific pages to be parse-able is actually viewing  
those pages online with a link to something like books.google.com or  
amazon.com.  That would be possible if "10-50" can be understood to  
mean "10,11,12,13,....,48,49,50", but not if it's just a string of  
five characters with no defined meaning.

Peace,
Scott

From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 12:06:51 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Mon Nov 13 12:06:57 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: 

On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message
> , Bruce
> D'Arcus  writes
>
> >Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's
> >not relevant to citations.
>
> I disagree, not least because people often cite a whole book, rather
> than part of it.

Which is exactly why the length of the book is irrelevant. The only
time you include pages in a citation is if you are referring to a
section within a book (typically a chapter), and the purpose there is
simply to help you find it. Page count does nothing to help you with
that, and for that reason they are never included in citations in my
experience.

Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe).

> >For the best balance of simplicity and generality, I'd suggest just
> >"pages." Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages
> >can be discontinuous.
>
> But what about inter-operability with other standards?

Which ones? There is no standard way to do this; some use start/end
and others a single property.

Bruce
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 12:30:12 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 12:31:35 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <38AF194A-E184-4B00-983E-B4903D577205@randomchaos.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<38AF194A-E184-4B00-983E-B4903D577205@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: 

In message <38AF194A-E184-4B00-983E-B4903D577205@randomchaos.com>, Scott
Reynen  writes

>Are we talking about treating that string as a defined format that
>will allow it to be parsed into specific pages, or just as a string?
>This might be outside the scope of hCite, but one use case I had in
>mind requiring specific pages to be parse-able is actually viewing
>those pages online with a link to something like books.google.com or
>amazon.com.  That would be possible if "10-50" can be understood to
>mean "10,11,12,13,....,48,49,50", but not if it's just a string of
>five characters with no defined meaning.

In that case, the start page will surely be the most relevant?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 12:33:55 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 12:35:39 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
Message-ID: 

In message
, Bruce
D'Arcus  writes

>On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>> In message
>> , Bruce
>> D'Arcus  writes
>>
>> >Pages to indicate the length of a book should be beyond scope. It's
>> >not relevant to citations.
>>
>> I disagree, not least because people often cite a whole book, rather
>> than part of it.
>
>Which is exactly why the length of the book is irrelevant.

No it isn't. Note "not least".

>The only
>time you include pages in a citation is if you are referring to a
>section within a book (typically a chapter), and the purpose there is
>simply to help you find it. Page count does nothing to help you with
>that, and for that reason they are never included in citations in my
>experience.

But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic
citations - in resumes,  for example, where the page count is likely to
be far more relevant.

>Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe).

That's an assertion for which you can provide no evidence.

>> >Don't worry about start and end because, as you noted, pages
>> >can be discontinuous.
>>
>> But what about inter-operability with other standards?
>
>Which ones? There is no standard way to do this;

Hence my deliberate use of the plural.

>some use start/end and others a single property.

So why not allow both to be marked up?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 13:11:52 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Mon Nov 13 13:11:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic
> citations - in resumes,  for example, where the page count is likely to
> be far more relevant.

I seriously doubt it. I certainly wouldn't include it (and don't) in my CV.

> >Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe).
>
> That's an assertion for which you can provide no evidence.

Likewise. Look, I don't have time to track down a heap of evidence for
you; either accept my argument, or don't.
...

> >some use start/end and others a single property.
>
> So why not allow both to be marked up?

I'm really not that invested in this. I gave my suggestion for the
best solution. You're entitled to your's. Either way is more-or-less
fine by me.

But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope. Do we want to
then include ways to encode the length of a CD or a DVD film or an
HTML document? I think not, particularly when there are more important
issues to worry about.

Bruce
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 13:20:31 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 13:22:12 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] "rel-" uFs : still draft after all this time?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 




Nothing appears to have changed, with regard to the following, which I
noted here on 24 October:



In message , Andy Mabbett
 writes

>
>rel-tag (listed on the Wiki main page as no longer a draft):

[Is listed on]

>        

[as being]

>draft, since 2005-01-10
>
>---
>
>and rel-payment is a draft according to the main page,
>
>        
>
>but its own page:
>
>        
>
>carries no such caveat, and no date.



-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 13:28:45 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 13:30:17 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
Message-ID: <8$sVWz4NOOWFFw7X@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
, Bruce
D'Arcus  writes

>> But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic
>> citations - in resumes,  for example, where the page count is likely to
>> be far more relevant.
>
>I seriously doubt it.

That's your prerogative; but foolish. Particularly as it was mentioned
just today:



>I certainly wouldn't include it (and don't) in my CV.

And do you also think that everyone does as you do?

>> >Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe).
>>
>> That's an assertion for which you can provide no evidence.
>
>Likewise. Look, I don't have time to track down a heap of evidence for
>you;

I didn't say that you hadn't provided evidence; I didn't say that you
wouldn't provide evidence; I didn't even ask you to provide evidence. I
pointed out that you CANNOT provide evidence.

>either accept my argument, or don't.

It's not an argument, merely an unfounded assertion.


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Nov 13 14:16:52 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Nov 13 14:17:05 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> In that case, the start page will surely be the most relevant?

Yes.

On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope.

I agree.  It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in  
the wiki:

http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases

I'm sure there are contexts in which page count would be helpful, but  
those seem to relate more to the media-info problem of distinguishing  
between multiple means of publishing the same content:

http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-brainstorming#The_Problem

As always, I look forward to clear explanations of where I might be  
mistaken.

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 14:58:02 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 14:59:45 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

In message , Scott
Reynen  writes

>> But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope.
>
>I agree.  It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in
>the wiki:
>
>http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases

It does:

        

Both Amazon and ABE cite page counts.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 13 15:28:01 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 13 15:31:52 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
Message-ID: 

In message , Andy Mabbett
 writes

>In message , Andy Mabbett
> writes
>
>>I've just been introducing a colleague to the concept of hCalendar; and
>>referred her to:
>>
>>        http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar
>>
>>She was baffled; not lest because, though the page had a treatise on
>>"Semantic XHTML Design Principles", it didn't list the hCalendar
>>fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional!
>
>It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed.

Another two weeks have passed...

-- 
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                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From lists at larryhalff.com  Mon Nov 13 18:41:22 2006
From: lists at larryhalff.com (Larry Halff)
Date: Mon Nov 13 18:41:32 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
Message-ID: 

Hi...

Long time subscriber, first time writer.

Among other things, I collect wine; probably far too much for my own  
good. With a variety of wine selling services and vendor aggregators  
(eg. http://www.wineaccess.com/), amateur collector and review sites  
(eg. http://www.corkd.com/), and professional review sites (eg.  
http://winespectator.com/); I know I would personally find it useful  
to be able to easily extract and aggregate this information.

For instance, I'd love to be able to grab my favorite wines from  
http://calwineries.com/ and import them as wine in my collection on  
http://corkd.com/. And in the more distant future be able to use a  
search engine to locate what vendors have a wine, or what bloggers  
have said about it.

Am I off base here, or would it be worthwhile to proceed and document  
current wine markup practices?

larry

-----
Larry Halff
Mailing Lists Only
For humam contact: email [at] larryhalff [dot] com


From ramsey.pat at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 19:10:16 2006
From: ramsey.pat at gmail.com (Pat Ramsey)
Date: Mon Nov 13 19:10:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>

Larry,

Is there a current recognized standard of categorizing wine? Something
along the lines of vCard corresponding with hCard? I know there are
several different scales, it seems there would need to be some way of
relating one scale with another in order to be able to extract
information in a usable manner.

Are you thinking some other system than ratings?

I like the thinking in this. I'd love to see extractable data on Texas wines.

Pat


On 11/13/06, Larry Halff  wrote:
> Hi...
>
> Long time subscriber, first time writer.
>
> Among other things, I collect wine; probably far too much for my own
> good. With a variety of wine selling services and vendor aggregators
> (eg. http://www.wineaccess.com/), amateur collector and review sites
> (eg. http://www.corkd.com/), and professional review sites (eg.
> http://winespectator.com/); I know I would personally find it useful
> to be able to easily extract and aggregate this information.
>
> For instance, I'd love to be able to grab my favorite wines from
> http://calwineries.com/ and import them as wine in my collection on
> http://corkd.com/. And in the more distant future be able to use a
> search engine to locate what vendors have a wine, or what bloggers
> have said about it.
>
> Am I off base here, or would it be worthwhile to proceed and document
> current wine markup practices?
>
> larry



-- 
Pat Ramsey
ramsey.pat@gmail.com
http://www.southwestern.edu/~ramseyp
From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Nov 13 19:17:39 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Nov 13 19:17:50 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 13, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> I agree.  It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in
>> the wiki:
>>
>> http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases
>
> It does:
>
>          brainstorming#Buy_a_copy>
>
> Both Amazon and ABE cite page counts.

Sure, but neither allow searching for books by those page counts that  
I see, so this doesn't seem to help with the stated task: "Find the  
cited work on, for example, Amazon or ABE."  Page count still looks  
out of scope to me for hCite, and closer to the type of information  
(i.e. file size) being discussed in media-info.

Peace,
Scott
From lists at larryhalff.com  Mon Nov 13 19:47:54 2006
From: lists at larryhalff.com (Larry Halff)
Date: Mon Nov 13 19:47:58 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Hi Pat,

The only resource I could find on a standard representation of wine  
data is for a desktop application called The Wine Cellar Book (http:// 
www.thewinecellarbook.com/html/en/downloads.html), and example of  
which can be seen here:

http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~lapalme/ForestInsteadOfTheTrees/ 
CellarBook/showXML.cgi?CellarBook.xml

As part of the example collection process, it would certainly be  
important to poll any wine-focussed web site developers about  
industry data formats; one of which I know is involved with  
Microformats. :)

larry

On Nov 13, 2006, at 7:10 PM, Pat Ramsey wrote:

> Larry,
>
> Is there a current recognized standard of categorizing wine? Something
> along the lines of vCard corresponding with hCard? I know there are
> several different scales, it seems there would need to be some way of
> relating one scale with another in order to be able to extract
> information in a usable manner.
>
> Are you thinking some other system than ratings?
>
> I like the thinking in this. I'd love to see extractable data on  
> Texas wines.
>
> Pat
>
>
> On 11/13/06, Larry Halff  wrote:
>> Hi...
>>
>> Long time subscriber, first time writer.
>>
>> Among other things, I collect wine; probably far too much for my own
>> good. With a variety of wine selling services and vendor aggregators
>> (eg. http://www.wineaccess.com/), amateur collector and review sites
>> (eg. http://www.corkd.com/), and professional review sites (eg.
>> http://winespectator.com/); I know I would personally find it useful
>> to be able to easily extract and aggregate this information.
>>
>> For instance, I'd love to be able to grab my favorite wines from
>> http://calwineries.com/ and import them as wine in my collection on
>> http://corkd.com/. And in the more distant future be able to use a
>> search engine to locate what vendors have a wine, or what bloggers
>> have said about it.
>>
>> Am I off base here, or would it be worthwhile to proceed and document
>> current wine markup practices?
>>
>> larry
>
>
>
> -- 
> Pat Ramsey
> ramsey.pat@gmail.com
> http://www.southwestern.edu/~ramseyp
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

-----
Larry Halff
Mailing Lists Only
For humam contact: email [at] larryhalff [dot] com


From adarowski at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 02:54:02 2006
From: adarowski at gmail.com (Adam Darowski)
Date: Tue Nov 14 02:54:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

There seems to be a greater theme here.

Not just wine. Any community could develop a Microformat for themselves.

You know what community I thought could use a Microformat? Sports
statistical data. Some sort of hCard on steroids (oh geez, pardon THAT
pun) that also hCalendar events for time spent with certain franchises
and transaction histories, as well as hStat or something to contain
the year by year player stats. It would essentially be a portable
digital baseball card/bio.

Basically, if you can get a community to rally around a certain data
format, they will then be able to reap the benefits of a Microformat
for that data, making it all portable.

But back to the wine example, the best place to start might be pinging
Dan Cederholm, seeing what trends he saw with Cork'd. A Microformat
doesn't have to be a "official" Microformat in order to provide the
same benefits. All you need are class names, a few users, and a few
tools.

-adam
darowski.com
From timber at lava.net  Tue Nov 14 03:05:08 2006
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Tue Nov 14 03:05:12 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
	
Message-ID: <40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>

On Nov 13, 2006, at 1:28 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> In message , Andy Mabbett
>  writes
>
>> In message , Andy Mabbett
>>  writes
>>
>>> I've just been introducing a colleague to the concept of  
>>> hCalendar; and
>>> referred her to:
>>>
>>>        http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar
>>>
>>> She was baffled; not lest because, though the page had a treatise on
>>> "Semantic XHTML Design Principles", it didn't list the hCalendar
>>> fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional!
>>
>> It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed.
>
> Another two weeks have passed...

Who exactly are you expecting to do something about this? I would  
suggest editing the page yourself.
From gazbe at radharc.com.au  Tue Nov 14 03:36:17 2006
From: gazbe at radharc.com.au (Gary Barber)
Date: Tue Nov 14 03:36:38 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application 
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>	
	
Message-ID: <4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>

I have been  slowly implementing microformats across our clients sites.

However I have noted a number of instances within a few addresses that 
just don't seem to fit in microformats.

*Case 1*

Reply Paid Addresses

eg

Reply Paid 61461
Locked Bag 1233 (okay this bit is the class="post-office-box")

"Reply Paid 61461" Its not really a post-office-box strictly  or is in 
bundled in the post-office-box class

*Case 2*

Freecall numbers

you can have telephone numbers of the type

home (allowed for)
work (allowed for)
fax  (allowed for)
cell  (allowed for)
pager (allowed for)

and then you can also
Freecall  (no allowance)
Freefax (no allowance)

*Case 3*

How do you express the case of an address as

Work telephone (understand this one)
Fax number (understand this one)

this is the bit I'm having trouble with

Freecall (from one country - AU eg 1800 1234 1234)
Freecall (from another country - NZ 800 232 222)

in this case the numbers all go to the work telephone just they are free 
to use (well local call costs)

So how do I render this in microformats. 

Sorry if its on the wiki, or this is the wrong list, just its not that 
clear.

-- 
Gary

From lists at allinthehead.com  Tue Nov 14 03:54:39 2006
From: lists at allinthehead.com (Drew McLellan)
Date: Tue Nov 14 03:50:41 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application
In-Reply-To: <4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
Message-ID: <4u6d18jE.1163505279.7709400.lists-drew@barclay.textdrive.com>

On 14/11/2006, "Gary Barber"  wrote:

>However I have noted a number of instances within a few addresses that
>just don't seem to fit in microformats.
>
>*Case 1*
>
>Reply Paid Addresses
>
>eg
>
>Reply Paid 61461
>Locked Bag 1233 (okay this bit is the class="post-office-box")
>
>"Reply Paid 61461" Its not really a post-office-box strictly  or is in
>bundled in the post-office-box class

So what is "Reply Paid 61461" ? What name would you give that in the
real world? What function does it perform?

If it's part of the address, then extended-address might cover it.

>*Case 2*
>
>Freecall numbers
>
>you can have telephone numbers of the type
>
>home (allowed for)
>work (allowed for)
>fax  (allowed for)
>cell  (allowed for)
>pager (allowed for)
>
>and then you can also
>Freecall  (no allowance)
>Freefax (no allowance)

'Freecall' isn't a type of number. The type is probably 'work' and
probably 'voice'. The information you're trying to convey here is the
rate at which the call is charged to the caller. This isn't something
that hCard (or VCARD before it) tries to capture.


>*Case 3*
>
>How do you express the case of an address as
>
>Work telephone (understand this one)
>Fax number (understand this one)
>
>this is the bit I'm having trouble with
>
>Freecall (from one country - AU eg 1800 1234 1234)
>Freecall (from another country - NZ 800 232 222)


So the question here is how do we mark up phone numbers to indicate the
country for which the number is valid. I'm not sure, to be honest.
Again, it's not something hCard tries to capture. I'd be tempted to
use rel-tag and tag the number with the ISO country code or something
like that.

drew.

From james at abscond.org  Tue Nov 14 03:57:00 2006
From: james at abscond.org (James Darling)
Date: Tue Nov 14 03:57:05 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application 
In-Reply-To: <4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
References: 	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>	
	
	<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
Message-ID: <211D7FFD-18AB-4323-B174-23AECF7A37C5@abscond.org>

I don't believe saying the charge in a machine readable format is  
necessary, as each country (or at least here in the UK) have certain  
prefixes for certain charges, i.e. here all freephone are 0800, 0500  
or 0808 i believe. 0845 is local rate and 09** is premium rate and so  
on. So although it is good for you to say the charge in a human  
readable format, I don't believe it's necessary to make it machine  
readable, as the prefix does that anyway.

As for location for phone number, I don't know too much about this,  
but I think usually it can be assumed the number is located in the  
country of the address. Yours is an exception, and perhaps it would  
be good to declare which country code the number is located in, it  
would make figuring out charges using the above easier. I don't know  
if this has been discussed. I think it depends on how common this  
would be.

James Darling
james@abscond.org
http://abscond.org
http://flickr.com/photos/abscond/


On 14 Nov 2006, at 11:36, Gary Barber wrote:

> I have been  slowly implementing microformats across our clients  
> sites.
>
> However I have noted a number of instances within a few addresses  
> that just don't seem to fit in microformats.
>
> *Case 1*
>
> Reply Paid Addresses
>
> eg
>
> Reply Paid 61461
> Locked Bag 1233 (okay this bit is the class="post-office-box")
>
> "Reply Paid 61461" Its not really a post-office-box strictly  or is  
> in bundled in the post-office-box class
>
> *Case 2*
>
> Freecall numbers
>
> you can have telephone numbers of the type
>
> home (allowed for)
> work (allowed for)
> fax  (allowed for)
> cell  (allowed for)
> pager (allowed for)
>
> and then you can also
> Freecall  (no allowance)
> Freefax (no allowance)
>
> *Case 3*
>
> How do you express the case of an address as
>
> Work telephone (understand this one)
> Fax number (understand this one)
>
> this is the bit I'm having trouble with
>
> Freecall (from one country - AU eg 1800 1234 1234)
> Freecall (from another country - NZ 800 232 222)
>
> in this case the numbers all go to the work telephone just they are  
> free to use (well local call costs)
>
> So how do I render this in microformats.
> Sorry if its on the wiki, or this is the wrong list, just its not  
> that clear.
>
> -- 
> Gary
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 04:07:11 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 04:07:15 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application
In-Reply-To: <211D7FFD-18AB-4323-B174-23AECF7A37C5@abscond.org>
References: 
	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
	<211D7FFD-18AB-4323-B174-23AECF7A37C5@abscond.org>
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
> As for location for phone number, I don't know too much about this,
> but I think usually it can be assumed the number is located in the
> country of the address. Yours is an exception, and perhaps it would
> be good to declare which country code the number is located in, it
> would make figuring out charges using the above easier. I don't know
> if this has been discussed. I think it depends on how common this
> would be.

As much as call rates can be inferred from the prefix - telephone
number location can be inferred also (i.e. +44 is the UK), rather than
relying on the address.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 04:09:49 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Tue Nov 14 04:09:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <21e770780611140409k5a662be3r774b93ec2d706399@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/14/06, Larry Halff  wrote:
> Hi...
>
> Long time subscriber, first time writer.

--- welcome aboard, great to have more and more people contributing to
the discussion.

> Among other things, I collect wine; probably far too much for my own
> good. ...
>
> For instance, I'd love to be able to grab my favorite wines from
> http://calwineries.com/ and import them as wine in my collection on
> http://corkd.com/. And in the more distant future be able to use a
> search engine to locate what vendors have a wine, or what bloggers
> have said about it.
>
> Am I off base here, or would it be worthwhile to proceed and document
> current wine markup practices?

--- i know that corkd uses hReview to give wines ratings, but think
you are asking for more "metadata" about the wine itself, region,
year, price, etc.

I won't start with finding wine-specific mark-up. This can easily be
abstracted to a more general problem of product-metadata. Which sounds
alot like hListing (http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting) The intent
of hListing is for a sort of classifieds.

First i would attempt to takes some existing wine data and try and use
hListing and hCard to add some semantics. (i'm guessing) that will get
out more than 80% of the way to what you need. Then we can take a look
at that last 20% and see if rel-tag, hCal, hReview or others can fill
that gap.

Does that make sense?

Do you have a URL that we can all look at so we can get a better
picture of what the data is you are looking to give more meaning too?

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From gazbe at radharc.com.au  Tue Nov 14 04:33:33 2006
From: gazbe at radharc.com.au (Gary Barber)
Date: Tue Nov 14 04:33:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>			<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>	<211D7FFD-18AB-4323-B174-23AECF7A37C5@abscond.org>
	
Message-ID: <4559B79D.6070309@radharc.com.au>

Frances Berriman wrote:
> On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
>> As for location for phone number, I don't know too much about this,
>> but I think usually it can be assumed the number is located in the
>> country of the address. Yours is an exception, and perhaps it would
>> be good to declare which country code the number is located in, it
>> would make figuring out charges using the above easier. I don't know
>> if this has been discussed. I think it depends on how common this
>> would be.
>
> As much as call rates can be inferred from the prefix - telephone
> number location can be inferred also (i.e. +44 is the UK), rather than
> relying on the address.
>
In these cases  AFAIK the numbers will not work with an international 
prefix attached or if they do they just remap to the :real number, 
Putting the code on inferred it will work at free call for the 
international dialing. This is not the case. 

The point in case is what would you do it you had a Australia freecall 
and say a New Zealand Freecall number for the same address in the 
Australia.  (this maybe a bad case,but you get the idea). I think its a 
little more common than you think. Especially for countries that have 
close trading and geographical ties.  So you can't rely on the address 
as the address main be in  Australia  and the other free phone for New 
Zealand.

-- 
Gary

From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 04:45:52 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 04:46:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application
In-Reply-To: <4559B79D.6070309@radharc.com.au>
References: 
	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
	<211D7FFD-18AB-4323-B174-23AECF7A37C5@abscond.org>
	
	<4559B79D.6070309@radharc.com.au>
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Gary Barber  wrote:
> In these cases  AFAIK the numbers will not work with an international
> prefix attached or if they do they just remap to the :real number,
> Putting the code on inferred it will work at free call for the
> international dialing. This is not the case.
>
> The point in case is what would you do it you had a Australia freecall
> and say a New Zealand Freecall number for the same address in the
> Australia.  (this maybe a bad case,but you get the idea). I think its a
> little more common than you think. Especially for countries that have
> close trading and geographical ties.  So you can't rely on the address
> as the address main be in  Australia  and the other free phone for New
> Zealand.

Maybe we could use an example - have you got one that illustrates the
specific problem?

Phone numbers are designed so that their location *can* be machine (or
human with a look up table) inferred from the digits alone.  Even
cell/mobile phones are fixed to a country by their digits.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From gazbe at radharc.com.au  Tue Nov 14 05:22:03 2006
From: gazbe at radharc.com.au (Gary Barber)
Date: Tue Nov 14 05:22:22 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	
	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>	
		
		
	<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>	
	<211D7FFD-18AB-4323-B174-23AECF7A37C5@abscond.org>	
		
	<4559B79D.6070309@radharc.com.au>
	
Message-ID: <4559C2FB.8070507@radharc.com.au>

Frances Berriman wrote:
> On 11/14/06, Gary Barber  wrote:
>> In these cases  AFAIK the numbers will not work with an international
>> prefix attached or if they do they just remap to the :real number,
>> Putting the code on inferred it will work at free call for the
>> international dialing. This is not the case.
>>
>> The point in case is what would you do it you had a Australia freecall
>> and say a New Zealand Freecall number for the same address in the
>> Australia.  (this maybe a bad case,but you get the idea). I think its a
>> little more common than you think. Especially for countries that have
>> close trading and geographical ties.  So you can't rely on the address
>> as the address main be in  Australia  and the other free phone for New
>> Zealand.
>
> Maybe we could use an example - have you got one that illustrates the
> specific problem?
>
> Phone numbers are designed so that their location *can* be machine (or
> human with a look up table) inferred from the digits alone.  Even
> cell/mobile phones are fixed to a country by their digits.
>
EG

http://www.rmaa.com.au/docs/contacts/index.cfm

-- 
Gary

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Tue Nov 14 05:27:22 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Tue Nov 14 05:27:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
Message-ID: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or design
pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type of topic
and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it would be
used

(1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the elements
from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in particular;
geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place. I.e. this
proposal is fully based on hCard

(2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats. For
example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If there was
a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just extending
that with information specific to the wine world; likewise, one could
see this being of great use for making car microformats or housing
microformats that would be used with hListing [1].

(3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may even be
an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
things. By having such a container, we ensure that attributes of the
thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than the review
(that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the review has 4
wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be obvious to a
machine reader)

(4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template for
create new microformats in the future. We do see this pattern in use
in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future progress means
the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just the  most
important ones)

(5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of thing is an
open question -- we could do it like phone number types in hCard or it
could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
because it means we can cover a lot of ground without creating new
microformats.

(6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to a hThing
microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
sketching here):



Rosemount Estates
Diamond Label
Cabernet Sauvignon
(wine)





Mazda
Tribute
SUV
(automobile)



Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
From james at abscond.org  Tue Nov 14 05:44:54 2006
From: james at abscond.org (James Darling)
Date: Tue Nov 14 05:45:03 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>

I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my mind.
I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has  
laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was  
covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and reviewing  
are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things  
you'd do with an item description on the internet.
On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark something as  
an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that  
item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire  
rather than an actually helpful thing.
So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of thoughts, but I  
personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be  
surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which  
case, any links to a justification against?)

James

On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:

> I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or design
> pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type of topic
> and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it would be
> used
>
> (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the elements
> from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in particular;
> geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place. I.e. this
> proposal is fully based on hCard
>
> (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats. For
> example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If there was
> a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just extending
> that with information specific to the wine world; likewise, one could
> see this being of great use for making car microformats or housing
> microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
>
> (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may even be
> an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
> container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
> things. By having such a container, we ensure that attributes of the
> thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than the review
> (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the review has 4
> wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be obvious to a
> machine reader)
>
> (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template for
> create new microformats in the future. We do see this pattern in use
> in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
> However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
> parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future progress means
> the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just the  most
> important ones)
>
> (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of thing is an
> open question -- we could do it like phone number types in hCard or it
> could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
> because it means we can cover a lot of ground without creating new
> microformats.
>
> (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to a hThing
> microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
> sketching here):
>
> 
> 
> Rosemount Estates
> Diamond Label
> Cabernet Sauvignon
> (wine)
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> Mazda
> Tribute
> SUV
> (automobile)
> 
> 
>
> Regards, etc...
> David
>
> [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
> [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 05:54:57 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 05:55:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application
In-Reply-To: <4559C2FB.8070507@radharc.com.au>
References: 
	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
	<211D7FFD-18AB-4323-B174-23AECF7A37C5@abscond.org>
	
	<4559B79D.6070309@radharc.com.au>
	
	<4559C2FB.8070507@radharc.com.au>
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Gary Barber  wrote:
> EG
>
> http://www.rmaa.com.au/docs/contacts/index.cfm

I don't see a problem with marking up those phone numbers.  As
mentioned by Drew "freecall" isn't a type.  All of those numbers use
differing prefixes to indicate their call cost band (0800 and 1800
suggest free - 0800 seems fairly universal, it turns out, eh?) and
their location would be defined by pre-fixing all of those numbers
with +02 (Australia?) etc.  hCard doesn't allow additional indicators
for country - as none are required if the phone number is given in
it's completeness.

To be fair though.. once extracted from a page, and without the
additional text in the originating page to indicate in words that a
phone number is for UK - it does require that the *person* using the
information knows that +44 is for the UK.  That's a different issue
though - My phone book, for example, doesn't have slots for different
numbers in different countries (country, also, isn't a type).  It
*does* rely on *me* knowing what's for what country.
-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From ross.singer at library.gatech.edu  Tue Nov 14 06:20:02 2006
From: ross.singer at library.gatech.edu (Ross Singer)
Date: Tue Nov 14 06:20:16 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: <23b83f160611140620t66b4d147r5d76c326abb152d1@mail.gmail.com>

I also can't see a compelling case for page counts.  They aren't
generally used in bibliographies, CVs, OpenURLs -- basically the
important cases for markup.

The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and
library catalogs -- do they really need to be included?  What purpose
would it serve?

I would like to make the argument for start-end page, though.  If
start page is being included, end page seems easy enough, and it could
be useful for last mile information retrieval purposes.

-Ross.

On 11/13/06, Scott Reynen  wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> >> I agree.  It doesn't seem to help any of the use cases identified in
> >> the wiki:
> >>
> >> http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Use_Cases
> >
> > It does:
> >
> >          > brainstorming#Buy_a_copy>
> >
> > Both Amazon and ABE cite page counts.
>
> Sure, but neither allow searching for books by those page counts that
> I see, so this doesn't seem to help with the stated task: "Find the
> cited work on, for example, Amazon or ABE."  Page count still looks
> out of scope to me for hCite, and closer to the type of information
> (i.e. file size) being discussed in media-info.
>
> Peace,
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
>
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 06:24:31 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Tue Nov 14 06:24:34 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <8$sVWz4NOOWFFw7X@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	<8$sVWz4NOOWFFw7X@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: 

On 11/13/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message
> , Bruce
> D'Arcus  writes
>
> >> But citation uFs are being recommended for more than pure academic
> >> citations - in resumes,  for example, where the page count is likely to
> >> be far more relevant.
> >
> >I seriously doubt it.
>
> That's your prerogative; but foolish. Particularly as it was mentioned
> just today:
> 

I fully accept the argument that hCite might be used for resumes. But
that message from Ryan says nothing about page count.

Bruce
From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 06:26:53 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 06:26:58 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <23b83f160611140620t66b4d147r5d76c326abb152d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<23b83f160611140620t66b4d147r5d76c326abb152d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Ross Singer  wrote:
> The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and
> library catalogs -- do they really need to be included?  What purpose
> would it serve?

Academic paper citations require page number references for literature
(be that books or journals etc.).

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From ross.singer at library.gatech.edu  Tue Nov 14 06:29:03 2006
From: ross.singer at library.gatech.edu (Ross Singer)
Date: Tue Nov 14 06:29:10 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<23b83f160611140620t66b4d147r5d76c326abb152d1@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <23b83f160611140629q595266bfjf8cf99e80fde084a@mail.gmail.com>

They generally require page number -- not number of pages in the book.

-Ross.

On 11/14/06, Frances Berriman  wrote:
> On 11/14/06, Ross Singer  wrote:
> > The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and
> > library catalogs -- do they really need to be included?  What purpose
> > would it serve?
>
> Academic paper citations require page number references for literature
> (be that books or journals etc.).
>
> --
> Frances Berriman
> http://fberriman.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
>
From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 06:30:34 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 06:30:41 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<23b83f160611140620t66b4d147r5d76c326abb152d1@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Frances Berriman  wrote:
> On 11/14/06, Ross Singer  wrote:
> > The only places I can really see them occurring are bookstore and
> > library catalogs -- do they really need to be included?  What purpose
> > would it serve?
>
> Academic paper citations require page number references for literature
> (be that books or journals etc.).

Nevermind.. I backtracked.  The total number of pages doesn't seem
useful! I can't find a decent working example where it's been used
either (specifically in a cite, rather than as a listing).


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From ehs at pobox.com  Tue Nov 14 07:39:02 2006
From: ehs at pobox.com (Edward Summers)
Date: Tue Nov 14 07:39:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
Message-ID: <0225E292-0300-48DC-9F72-CA6F3D17CB7C@pobox.com>

On Nov 13, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> But I do feel strongly that page count is beyond scope. Do we want to
> then include ways to encode the length of a CD or a DVD film or an
> HTML document? I think not, particularly when there are more important
> issues to worry about.

+1
From lists at lloydi.com  Tue Nov 14 07:48:20 2006
From: lists at lloydi.com (Ian Lloyd)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:06:03 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: <21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>

I have used a Microformat for the first time in a project (cue  
fanfare) but it's not working out 100% as I had hoped (cue loud  
booing noise and general rasping).

I want the telephone numbers to display on screen as Work and Mobile,  
but understand that it needs to be marked up as Office and Cell. So I  
want to use CSS to hide the proper terminology and display the UK- 
centric terms instead.

Is this OK?

  
Office: Work +44 (0) 121 683 5151

  
Mobile: Cell +44 (0) 7710 623044


I've had issues where by placing the Work  
in the HTML, it imports that information into the hCard itself, so  
that in iCal on Mac it shows as :

Cell: Mobile +44 (0) 7710 623044

... and when that gets synced to my phone, it all goes to pot.

Like I said, it's probably something simple I've missed, but wood/ 
trees and all that.

Thanks

Ian Lloyd
---------------------------------
A beginner's guide to building web sites (with web standards!) http:// 
beginningwebdesign.com/
Published by SitePoint (ISBN 0975240293)
Download first four chapters for free: http://tinyurl.com/mm6qa
Testimonial from a happy customer: http://tinyurl.com/eqsaj


From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 09:16:56 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:17:33 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: <1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Ian Lloyd  wrote:
> I have used a Microformat for the first time in a project (cue
> fanfare) but it's not working out 100% as I had hoped (cue loud
> booing noise and general rasping).

Yay :D (the first part, anyway, although the fun is in the latter)


> I want the telephone numbers to display on screen as Work and Mobile,
> but understand that it needs to be marked up as Office and Cell. So I
> want to use CSS to hide the proper terminology and display the UK-
> centric terms instead.
>
> Is this OK?

I'd probably do the same.  Hiding info for that sort of purpose
doesn't seem so awful. There's nothing technically wrong with doing
it.

>   
Office: Work  class="value">+44 (0) 121 683 5151

>   
Mobile: Cell  class="value">+44 (0) 7710 623044



Someone showed me markup like this a couple weeks ago and he was
having trouble marking stuff up with tel used twice, since the parsers
were only grabbing the last instance of tel (over-writing any found
before).  Instead, use:



Office: Work +44 (0) 121
683 5151
Office: Cell +44 (0)
7710 623044



One section of telephone contacts, with lots of types and values
within that block (I left the out the extra divs - I'd probably put
them in a list (class="tel" on the ul and so on with the list items
being the office number and the cell phone number)!) . :)

Hope that helps.


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Tue Nov 14 09:18:47 2006
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:19:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: <1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
Message-ID: <9649080D-EB7A-4BC2-AC72-22E3055844DB@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 14 Nov 2006, at 15:48, Ian Lloyd wrote:
> I've had issues where by placing the Work  
> in the HTML, it imports that information into the hCard itself, so  
> that in iCal on Mac it shows as :
>
> Cell: Mobile +44 (0) 7710 623044

I may also be suffering from end-of-day fatigue, but from your mark- 
up that should work as expected, given that you've specified type and  
value. So I'm inclined to cry parser error at this point.

Have you tried it with a number of different ?f parsers to see if  
they all suffer the same bug? For example, Suda.co.uk and Technorati  
are often out of sync in their XSLT so one may have the bug and one  
may not, and the Microformats Bookmarklet [1] I think does it all  
differently using JQuery and could produce a different export result.

That's if it's a parser error at all, but I can't see the error on  
your side if it's there.

[1] http://leftlogic.com/info/articles/microformats_bookmarklet

Ben
From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 09:22:12 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:22:18 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Frances Berriman  wrote:
> 

> Office: Work +44 (0) 121
> 683 5151
> Office: Cell +44 (0)
> 7710 623044
> 


Doh.  Obviously not Office twice though, eh?  Office#2=Mobile :)

It'd be simple enough then to specify all "type" as display:none


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 09:23:04 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:22:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: <49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>

On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe).

Page count is also important in academic and non-academic reviews of  
books, specifically when the review prints the information of the  
book in question. See the NY Times review of _Ghost Map_ [1] as one  
example.

THE GHOST MAP: The Story of London?s Most Terrifying Epidemic ? and  
How It Changed Science, Cities, and the Modern World. By Steven  
Johnson. 299 pp. Riverhead Books. $26.95.

This is a very common citation format for book reviews. I'd be glad  
to gather evidence on this if need be.

> Do we want to then include ways to encode the length of a CD or a  
> DVD film or an HTML document? I think not, particularly when there  
> are more important issues to worry about.

Me not knowing what other important issues are aside, I do think we  
should include ways to encode the length of a CD or DVD...length of  
films, music, and other audio/video media is included when citing  
them. That said, the citation-examples page does not include these  
media.[2]

There isn't a standard citation format that I'm aware of that tries  
to include the length of an HTML document. Then again, I'm only  
familiar with Chicago-style citations. The Chicago format for citing  
an online MPEG would be:

	Weed, A.E. _At the Foot of the Flatiron_. American Mutoscope and  
boigraph Co., 1903; 2 min, 19 sec.; 35mm; from Library of Congress,  
_Early Motion Pictures, 1898-1920_. MPEG, http://hdl.loc.gov/ 
loc.mbrsmi/lcmp002.m2a33981 (accessed November 14, 2006).

Lots of different stuff included in this citation: format, length,  
access date. Could you hCalendar to mark up the access date. My  
concerns with media-info are outlined below:

On Nov 13, 2006, at 10:17 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:

> Page count still looks out of scope to me for hCite, and closer to  
> the type of information (i.e. file size) being discussed in media- 
> info.

The only problem I see with this is that, according to the citation- 
brainstorming page, there is a significant difference between  
citation and media-info: media-info "describes information about  
content embedded or inline in the current document" whereas citation  
is a "reference to something explicitly external."[3] Especially with  
the example citation I give above, even though I'm citing an audio- 
visual source, because its external from my document, I should use  
hCitation, NOT media-info, at least according to the current  
definition on the wiki.

I do think that page counts should be accounted for, in some way.  
Whether that way is in hCite or through a redefinition of media-info  
(or some other options).

Thanks,
Jeremy Boggs

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/books/review/Quammen.t.html? 
ref=review
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples
[3] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation- 
brainstorming#Citation_vs._media-info
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Nov 14 09:26:42 2006
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:26:47 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

Rather than hiding data using CSS, would it be valid to do something
like the following?

Office

I think that would parse correctly, but the usage of the ABBR is very
semantically dodgy.

-Ciaran McNulty
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Nov 14 09:27:15 2006
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:27:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Ciaran McNulty  wrote:
> Office

Sorry, Mobile makes more sense.

-Ciaran McNulty
From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 09:34:27 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:34:31 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Ciaran McNulty  wrote:
> On 11/14/06, Ciaran McNulty  wrote:
> > Office
>
> Sorry, Mobile makes more sense.

Does that work?  I can't think of a wild example with that in to test
(and I'm walking out of the office door now, honest!).  That would be
a smarter way to do things though for non-US terminology, I agree.


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 09:36:09 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Tue Nov 14 09:36:12 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06, Jeremy Boggs  wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>
> > Page count is only relevant to publishers and book stores (maybe).
>
> Page count is also important in academic and non-academic reviews of
> books, specifically when the review prints the information of the
> book in question.

True; I'd forgotten about that.

But it's still a fairly narrow kind of use case.

Bruce
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 10:23:52 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Tue Nov 14 10:23:55 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard and "ATTN" text?
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Right now I'm marking up a mailing address with an hCard, but I'm not
completely sure how to mark up part of it.

It goes something like this... and this isn't the real mailing
address, but it should suffice...

    MyCompany Inc.,
    ATTN: Joe Blow,
    123 Somewhere Ave W
    Vancouver
    BC
    WWW111

Now, I'm not sure what to do with the "ATTN: Joe Blow".

Should it be part of the "fn"?  (Or should only "MyCompany Inc." be the "fn"?)



See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
From fberriman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 11:01:12 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Tue Nov 14 11:01:19 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard and "ATTN" text?
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I'd mark "MyCompany" as an organisation, and "Joe Bloe" as fn. You can
still present it with org first.

On 11/14/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Right now I'm marking up a mailing address with an hCard, but I'm not
> completely sure how to mark up part of it.
>
> It goes something like this... and this isn't the real mailing
> address, but it should suffice...
>
>     MyCompany Inc.,
>     ATTN: Joe Blow,
>     123 Somewhere Ave W
>     Vancouver
>     BC
>     WWW111
>
> Now, I'm not sure what to do with the "ATTN: Joe Blow".
>
> Should it be part of the "fn"?  (Or should only "MyCompany Inc." be the "fn"?)
>
>
>
> See ya
>
> --
>     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
>
>     charles @ reptile.ca
>     supercanadian @ gmail.com
>
>     developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Nov 14 11:09:35 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Nov 14 11:09:49 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 14, 2006, at 11:34 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

> On 11/14/06, Ciaran McNulty  wrote:
>> On 11/14/06, Ciaran McNulty  wrote:
>> > Office
>>
>> Sorry, Mobile makes more  
>> sense.
>
> Does that work?

Yes.  If it doesn't in a given parser, it should because it's been  
suggested to publishers many times.  Here's the first I found:

On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Ryan King wrote:

> And you can use  if you want a different human-readable  
> value. For example:
>
>> My mobile  
>> phone number is +1 (415) 260 1398

Peace,
Scott
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 11:16:10 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov 14 11:15:51 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>

On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> But it's still a fairly narrow kind of use case.

I agree that its a narrow kind of use case, but book reviews are very  
common, and the structure of a book review is fairly standardized.  
Every book review that I've read has included the page count.  
Granted, I would need to do more research about this to make a more  
substantiated claim; I'm only familiar with arts/humanities reviews,  
specifically history books in academic journals.

So, if page count is out of the scope of hCite, and if it turns out  
(from my observation about media-info) that it doesn't fit into the  
media-info format, would page count just not be marked up at all? So,  
if I'm reviewing a book and want to include the bibliographic  
information of the book wtih hCite, I would just not mark up page  
count with any semantic meaning?

Thanks,
Jeremy
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov 14 11:21:17 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov 14 11:23:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Advocacy, accessibility & Media Wiki voting
Message-ID: <2fEXeRFtchWFFwJn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Hi,

I've added quite a bit to the Advocacy page:

        

in the last couple of days.

Requests have been submitted to some of the sites listed, though only
one has responded so far, the UK Government's Department of Trade and
Industry, who say:

        "At the moment we have no plans to use hCalendar or hCard coding
        due to unresolved concerns about accessibility issues
        (especially text-to-speech readers), however, we thank you for
        your suggestion."


I've also raised a "bug" for a feature request in Media Wiki (the
Software used by, among others, the Wikipedia family of wikis, and the
microformats 'wiki', asking for hAtom to be used in article histories.
You can vote for that bug:



though you may need to open an account first.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov 14 11:24:33 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov 14 11:26:16 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard and "ATTN" text?
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>, Charles
Iliya Krempeaux  writes

>   MyCompany Inc.,
>   ATTN: Joe Blow,
>   123 Somewhere Ave W
>   Vancouver
>   BC
>   WWW111

Ask yourself how you would enter that in a paper address book.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov 14 11:32:15 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov 14 11:33:45 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
In-Reply-To: <40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>
References: 
	
	
	<40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>
Message-ID: 

In message <40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>, Colin
Barrett  writes

>>>> I've just been introducing a colleague to the concept of
>>>>hCalendar; and
>>>> referred her to:
>>>>
>>>>        http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar
>>>>
>>>> She was baffled; not lest because, though the page had a treatise on
>>>> "Semantic XHTML Design Principles", it didn't list the hCalendar
>>>> fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional!
>>>
>>> It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed.
>>
>> Another two weeks have passed...
>
>Who exactly are you expecting to do something about this?

You tell me...

>I would  suggest editing the page yourself.

I admire your naive optimism (or should that be "your sense of
humour"?):



-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 11:47:13 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov 14 11:46:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite "problem" statement/purpose of hCite?
Message-ID: 

This question stems from reading the "hCite progress" thread[1]: In  
reading the available citation pages on the wiki[2], the problems  
that hCitation tries to solve aren't stated anywhere clearly on the  
wiki, per the process.[3] (If I've missed it by mistake, I  
apologize.) Is there a page that has hCite's problem statement? I  
understand from a previous thread[4] that Tim White raised this  
question in January, 2006, but I'm not clear from the thread if his  
question was really answered. I'm not concerned so much whether the  
process was followed, but I'm still wondering, at this point, if we  
have or are in the process of creating a problem statement for  
hCitation. Problem statements seem pretty handy, especially for folks  
who don't understand the scope or purpose of a specific microformat.

I only ask because I'm confused about the specific purposes of  
hCitation, and the problems it tries to solve. Does it involve only  
instances in which one is citing a work as an "authority," or  
acknowledge the source for a quote or idea? Or is it for marking up  
general bibliographic information? Or both, and other contexts?

There are significant semantic differences between a "citation" and a  
simple bibliographic listing. In other words, its one thing for me to  
quote and cite a passage from Jeremy Keith's _DOM Scripting_, but a  
different thing to simply list Keith's book in a bibliography along  
with other books on JavaScript. There are also differences in listing  
one's own work in a CV, and printing bibliographic information in a  
review. A few others have already pointed these differences out in  
past discussions.[5]

I'm just wondering that, if the number of pages in a book is out of  
the scope of hCite, why is it out of the scope, what else is out of  
the scope, and what would be in the scope?

Thanks,
Jeremy

[1] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- 
November/thread.html#7102

[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-faq
      http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples
      http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples-markup
      http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming
      http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
      http://microformats.org/wiki/citation

[3] http://microformats.org/wiki/process

[4] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- 
January/thread.html#2837

[5] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005- 
August/000646.html

From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Nov 14 12:04:38 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Nov 14 12:04:51 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>

On Nov 14, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote:

> On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>
>> But it's still a fairly narrow kind of use case.
>
> I agree that its a narrow kind of use case, but book reviews are  
> very common, and the structure of a book review is fairly  
> standardized.

I'd say it's not a use case at all, as no on has really described how  
this markup would be used by parsing applications.  I've only seen  
pointers to where it is published.  Plain HTML handles the publishing  
use case just fine, so that's not really a use case for additional  
microformat markup.

> Every book review that I've read has included the page count.  
> Granted, I would need to do more research about this to make a more  
> substantiated claim; I'm only familiar with arts/humanities  
> reviews, specifically history books in academic journals.
>
> So, if page count is out of the scope of hCite, and if it turns out  
> (from my observation about media-info) that it doesn't fit into the  
> media-info format, would page count just not be marked up at all?

What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality?

> So, if I'm reviewing a book and want to include the bibliographic  
> information of the book wtih hCite, I would just not mark up page  
> count with any semantic meaning?

If it's in a review and it's describing the item you're reviewing,  
I'd say it belongs in hReview's description field.  If there is a  
need to describe page count more specifically, I'm still not clear  
what it is.  Searching books by page count?

Peace,
Scott

From supercanadian at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 12:39:15 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Tue Nov 14 12:39:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard and "ATTN" text?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611141239j309717u1d741a259210e63c@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Andy,

That kind of gets at my confusion.

Frances' suggestion of marking up the name "Joe Blow" with the "fn"
seem technically correct... but from-my-point of view it seems wrong.

To me, I think of this as an address for "MyCompany Inc."... and NOT
"Joe Blow"... which is why I want to give "MyCompany Inc." the "fn"
(and NOT "Joe Blow").

The "Joe Blow" part seems secondary.  It's almost like a "extension"
on a phone number.

Maybe this is an issue with the current hCard spec.

Perhaps we need a new class for this.  Perhaps "attn" or something like that.


See ya


On 11/14/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message
> <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>, Charles
> Iliya Krempeaux  writes
>
> >   MyCompany Inc.,
> >   ATTN: Joe Blow,
> >   123 Somewhere Ave W
> >   Vancouver
> >   BC
> >   WWW111
>
> Ask yourself how you would enter that in a paper address book.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  



-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
From timber at lava.net  Tue Nov 14 13:33:10 2006
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Tue Nov 14 13:33:13 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
	
	<40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>
	
Message-ID: <5D08EB51-3B1C-4EF8-8371-564BC59A555D@lava.net>


On Nov 14, 2006, at 9:32 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> In message <40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>, Colin
> Barrett  writes
>
>>>>> I've just been introducing a colleague to the concept of
>>>>> hCalendar; and
>>>>> referred her to:
>>>>>
>>>>>        http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar
>>>>>
>>>>> She was baffled; not lest because, though the page had a  
>>>>> treatise on
>>>>> "Semantic XHTML Design Principles", it didn't list the hCalendar
>>>>> fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional!
>>>>
>>>> It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has  
>>>> changed.
>>>
>>> Another two weeks have passed...
>>
>> Who exactly are you expecting to do something about this?
>
> You tell me...
>
>> I would  suggest editing the page yourself.
>
> I admire your naive optimism (or should that be "your sense of
> humour"?):
>
>  >

Well, you've been waiting for a month, and nobody has raised  
objections, so I would say go ahead. If someone suddenly starts  
caring, well, it's a bit late.

Take the initiative, like you did with species. :)

-Colin
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 13:42:24 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Tue Nov 14 13:42:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard and "ATTN" text?
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611141239j309717u1d741a259210e63c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<84ce626f0611141239j309717u1d741a259210e63c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611141342v49660006j3cd179156cfee68b@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Also, sometimes you have more than one "ATTN".  As in...

   MyCompany Inc.,
   ATTN: Joe Blow and John Doe,
   123 Somewhere Ave W
   Vancouver
   BC
   WWW111


See ya

On 11/14/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux  wrote:
> Hello Andy,
>
> That kind of gets at my confusion.
>
> Frances' suggestion of marking up the name "Joe Blow" with the "fn"
> seem technically correct... but from-my-point of view it seems wrong.
>
> To me, I think of this as an address for "MyCompany Inc."... and NOT
> "Joe Blow"... which is why I want to give "MyCompany Inc." the "fn"
> (and NOT "Joe Blow").
>
> The "Joe Blow" part seems secondary.  It's almost like a "extension"
> on a phone number.
>
> Maybe this is an issue with the current hCard spec.
>
> Perhaps we need a new class for this.  Perhaps "attn" or something like that.
>
>
> See ya
>
>
> On 11/14/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> > In message
> > <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>, Charles
> > Iliya Krempeaux  writes
> >
> > >   MyCompany Inc.,
> > >   ATTN: Joe Blow,
> > >   123 Somewhere Ave W
> > >   Vancouver
> > >   BC
> > >   WWW111
> >
> > Ask yourself how you would enter that in a paper address book.
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> >                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
> >
> >                 Free Our Data:  
>
>
>
> --
>     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
>
>     charles @ reptile.ca
>     supercanadian @ gmail.com
>
>     developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
>


-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 13:57:46 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov 14 13:57:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:

> I'd say it's not a use case at all, as no on has really described  
> how this markup would be used by parsing applications.

Does the "it's" to which you're referring, Scott, mean hCite for a  
reviewed book in general, or marking up page numbers specifically?

If "it's" means hCite for the book in general, I'd say it is a use  
case, from my understanding of hCite. Especially if I'd like to  
extract the bibliographic data of a book that is being reviewed. I  
assume that's how the markup would be used by parsing applications,  
but I'll leave that question to those with more expertise than I.

If "it's" means markup for page numbers, then I can see your  
argument. I'm starting to see that page count might be out scope, but  
I'm still open to it.

> What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality?

If you're referring to my question about page numbers, perhaps  
nothing. I'm totally fine with leaving it blank, or not including it  
within hCitation; I point out reviews as another example of how  
they're used, so the community could consider it. I only want to make  
sure that, if in fact page count is out of scope, do we simple ignore  
it in the markup?

My understanding of why page counts exist in book review  
bibliographic information is that it is a legacy from older problems  
with knowing which book is the "right" book, or the book your  
referring to; I might refer to a version that has, say, 438 pages,  
but there might be another print run that had, for various reasons,  
420 pages. This is so much a problem anymore, so maybe it isn't a  
problem for hCite.

> If it's in a review and it's describing the item you're reviewing,  
> I'd say it belongs in hReview's description field.

I completely agree. From my understanding, that information included  
inside the DESCRIPTION field in hReview could be marked up with  
hCitation. hReview isn't, however, listed in the "Modularity" section  
of the citation page, though I imagine it could be.[1]

Is there a reason why hCite could not be used in a book review marked  
up in hReview?

> If there is a need to describe page count more specifically, I'm  
> still not clear what it is. Searching books by page count?

If marking up content to make it searchable is the primary purpose of  
hCitation, then I'd agree that page count is out of scope. This leads  
me to ask: is this the primary purpose of hCitation to mark up  
searchable information? I'm not sure that people search solely by  
other information that is included in hCitation (publisher, location  
of publisher,volume,edition).

Best,
Jeremy

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation#Modularity
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Nov 14 13:58:34 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Nov 14 14:01:51 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
In-Reply-To: <5D08EB51-3B1C-4EF8-8371-564BC59A555D@lava.net>
Message-ID: 

On 11/14/06 1:33 PM, "Colin Barrett"  wrote:

> 
> On Nov 14, 2006, at 9:32 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> 
>> In message <40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>, Colin
>> Barrett  writes
>> 
>>>>>> I've just been introducing a colleague to the concept of
>>>>>> hCalendar; and
>>>>>> referred her to:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>        http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> She was baffled; not lest because, though the page had a
>>>>>> treatise on
>>>>>> "Semantic XHTML Design Principles", it didn't list the hCalendar
>>>>>> fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional!
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has
>>>>> changed.
>>>> 
>>>> Another two weeks have passed...
>>> 
>>> Who exactly are you expecting to do something about this?
>> 
>> You tell me...
>> 
>>> I would  suggest editing the page yourself.
>> 
>> I admire your naive optimism (or should that be "your sense of
>> humour"?):
>> 
>> > 6.html 
>>> 
> 
> Well, you've been waiting for a month,

Email is a very poor mechanism for archiving/tracking issues.

hCalendar issues may be added to this page:

 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-issues

> and nobody has raised
> objections, so I would say go ahead.

As cited, there are objections to rewriting/reorganizing fairly established
spec pages without discussion and at least a reasonable resemblance of
consensus.

The key with edits on the wiki, as with any wiki or source control system,
is small contained edits that solve exactly the problem they are meant to
solve, and no more.

Thanks,

Tantek

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov 14 14:14:42 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov 14 14:15:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
In-Reply-To: <5D08EB51-3B1C-4EF8-8371-564BC59A555D@lava.net>
References: 
	
	
	<40FEA1BB-74A4-495A-BB72-AC0579D21737@lava.net>
	
	<5D08EB51-3B1C-4EF8-8371-564BC59A555D@lava.net>
Message-ID: 

In message <5D08EB51-3B1C-4EF8-8371-564BC59A555D@lava.net>, Colin
Barrett  writes

>>> I would  suggest editing the page yourself.
>>
>> I admire your naive optimism (or should that be "your sense of
>> humour"?):
>>
>> >er/006396.html
>> >
>
>Well, you've been waiting for a month, and nobody has raised
>objections, so I would say go ahead.

I don't think you're reading the situation correctly.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 15:01:40 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov 14 15:01:23 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <38AF194A-E184-4B00-983E-B4903D577205@randomchaos.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<38AF194A-E184-4B00-983E-B4903D577205@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <20459511-C377-42A8-AB9D-DC0570DAFF9D@gmail.com>

On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:
> This might be outside the scope of hCite, but one use case I had in  
> mind requiring specific pages to be parse-able is actually viewing  
> those pages online with a link to something like books.google.com  
> or amazon.com.  That would be possible if "10-50" can be understood  
> to mean "10,11,12,13,....,48,49,50", but not if it's just a string  
> of five characters with no defined meaning.

Ah, this would be quite handy, not only for Google Books, but in  
other cases in which printed books also have online version available  
(through many public/university libraries).

Best,
Jeremy
From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Nov 14 16:59:52 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Nov 14 17:00:12 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote:

> On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:
>
>> I'd say it's not a use case at all, as no on has really described  
>> how this markup would be used by parsing applications.
>
> Does the "it's" to which you're referring, Scott, mean hCite for a  
> reviewed book in general, or marking up page numbers specifically?

Neither.  I was referring only to page count (which is different than  
page numbers).

> I'm starting to see that page count might be out scope, but I'm  
> still open to it.

I'm certainly open to it too.  I'd just like to see some reason for  
including additional markup, some way it actually helps us do  
anything, so we're not just adding markup for markup's sake.

>> What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of  
>> functionality?
>
> If you're referring to my question about page numbers, perhaps  
> nothing. I'm totally fine with leaving it blank, or not including  
> it within hCitation; I point out reviews as another example of how  
> they're used, so the community could consider it. I only want to  
> make sure that, if in fact page count is out of scope, do we simple  
> ignore it in the markup?

Yes.  Nearly every type of microformat published in the wild contains  
content that isn't part of the microformat's purpose.  Parsers just  
ignore this unrelated content.  But it can still be intermingled in  
the HTML.

> My understanding of why page counts exist in book review  
> bibliographic information is that it is a legacy from older  
> problems with knowing which book is the "right" book, or the book  
> your referring to; I might refer to a version that has, say, 438  
> pages, but there might be another print run that had, for various  
> reasons, 420 pages. This is so much a problem anymore, so maybe it  
> isn't a problem for hCite.

If that were a common problem I think it would be a compelling reason  
to include page counts.  But if it's just an edge case, hCite can  
still be useful to the 80% (or more) cases where page count is  
irrelevant, and people can still read the page count where it's  
relevant even if machines can't.

>> If it's in a review and it's describing the item you're reviewing,  
>> I'd say it belongs in hReview's description field.
>
> I completely agree. From my understanding, that information  
> included inside the DESCRIPTION field in hReview could be marked up  
> with hCitation. hReview isn't, however, listed in the "Modularity"  
> section of the citation page, though I imagine it could be.[1]
>
> Is there a reason why hCite could not be used in a book review  
> marked up in hReview?

I don't see any.  You have to cite a book before you can review it,  
right?

>> If there is a need to describe page count more specifically, I'm  
>> still not clear what it is. Searching books by page count?
>
> If marking up content to make it searchable is the primary purpose  
> of hCitation, then I'd agree that page count is out of scope.

That was just a question, not an attempt to declare the scope of hCite.

Peace,
Scott
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 17:54:58 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov 14 17:54:40 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <21348066-83A0-428B-9E23-E478F79BD934@gmail.com>

On Nov 14, 2006, at 7:59 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:

>> Does the "it's" to which you're referring, Scott, mean hCite for a  
>> reviewed book in general, or marking up page numbers specifically?
>
> Neither.  I was referring only to page count (which is different  
> than page numbers).

Good catch; I meant "page count," but didn't actually type that,  
there and a few other places in my email. My bad.

> Yes.  Nearly every type of microformat published in the wild  
> contains content that isn't part of the microformat's purpose.   
> Parsers just ignore this unrelated content.  But it can still be  
> intermingled in the HTML.

Awesome, thanks!

>> My understanding of why page counts exist in book review  
>> bibliographic information is that it is a legacy from older  
>> problems with knowing which book is the "right" book, or the book  
>> your referring to; I might refer to a version that has, say, 438  
>> pages, but there might be another print run that had, for various  
>> reasons, 420 pages. This is so much a problem anymore, so maybe it  
>> isn't a problem for hCite.
>
> If that were a common problem I think it would be a compelling  
> reason to include page counts.  But if it's just an edge case,  
> hCite can still be useful to the 80% (or more) cases where page  
> count is irrelevant, and people can still read the page count where  
> it's relevant even if machines can't.

This makes sense. I don't think it is anymore, especially with the  
prominence of editions and versions of printed works. From my  
understanding, keeping page counts has been simply a legacy of that  
problem. It might also serve a purpose for book stores trying to  
determine how much shelf space they need for certain books, but this  
is merely speculation on my part. In any case, neither is really a  
good argument for including page counts in hCite.

>> Is there a reason why hCite could not be used in a book review  
>> marked up in hReview?
>
> I don't see any.  You have to cite a book before you can review it,  
> right?

Quite true; you do have to include the bibliographic information  
before you can review it, at least in a standard academic review. I  
guess, then, that we should at some point add hCitation to the review  
wiki page.

I do think that, if we decide that this is out of the scope of hCite,  
it would be good to include on the wiki somewhere some explanation of  
why certain bibliographic/citation elements are left out of hCite.  
Especially for folks who regularly write out references and citations  
and are just picking up on microformats; folks like me:)

Best,
Jeremy


From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 18:26:32 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Nov 14 18:26:14 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Brian Suda wrote:

> But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just
> capture the string "pages 10-50". So i think something akin to the
> first example here will work.

One reason why a string might not be useful is capturing a citation  
for a specific page of a work versus capturing a citation of a work  
in its entirety. Its one thing to cite a specific quote from page 40  
of an article in a journal, and another to cite an entire article  
that exists on pages 37-65 in a journal.

If I were to quote something specific, or refer to a specific idea or  
statement in a journal article on page 40, I would use some variation  
of the following:

John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum Dolor," _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40.

If, however, I would want to refer to the entire article, I would use  
the following:

John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum Dolor," _Sit Amet_ 81, no.3 (2000), 37-65.

I don't see how leaving pages as a simple string can account for this  
difference. I wouldn't want a parser to say that the article is only  
one page long, and that it exists only on page 40 of a journal.  
Granted, neither of these citations, in and of themselves, really  
lets the reader know whether the entire article, or just a portion of  
it, is being cited. In this case, start-end pages are important. I'm  
not really sure offhand how to remedy this, but I'll certainly think  
about it and offer up whatever I come up with. (I've tended to do  
that on this list; raise questions without offering much on  
solutions. My apologies.) Does anyone else have thoughts about this?

Maybe it would be useful to use the include-pattern in hCite?

It seems like it would be helpful to be able to include information  
on a work in a smaller citation. Given the example above, if I were  
to add subsequent citations to cite a different page of the same  
work, I would use something like this:

1. John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum Dolor," _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40.
2. Doe, 54.

There are variations on a theme for this, across disciplines and  
citation standards. Would the include-object be useful to include  
specific information from the first citation to be used in the second  
citation? Or more broadly, would the include-object be helpful in  
connecting multiple citations of the same work to the more complete  
bibliographic information of a work?

It also might be useful for the problem I illustrated above, with  
citing on a specific portion of a work versus citing a work in its  
entirety. Maybe use the include-object to include the start-end pages  
of a work, while showing the specific page being cited?

I can come up with some example markup, if it is valid for hCite and  
folks think it would be useful.

Best,
Jeremy
From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Nov 14 21:15:59 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Nov 14 21:16:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 14, 2006, at 8:26 PM, Jeremy Boggs wrote:

> On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Brian Suda wrote:
>
>> But as Bruce said: start-end pages are not really important, just
>> capture the string "pages 10-50". So i think something akin to the
>> first example here will work.
>
> One reason why a string might not be useful is capturing a citation  
> for a specific page of a work versus capturing a citation of a work  
> in its entirety. Its one thing to cite a specific quote from page  
> 40 of an article in a journal, and another to cite an entire  
> article that exists on pages 37-65 in a journal.
>
> If I were to quote something specific, or refer to a specific idea  
> or statement in a journal article on page 40, I would use some  
> variation of the following:
>
> John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum Dolor," _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40.
>
> If, however, I would want to refer to the entire article, I would  
> use the following:
>
> John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum Dolor," _Sit Amet_ 81, no.3 (2000), 37-65.
>
> I don't see how leaving pages as a simple string can account for  
> this difference. I wouldn't want a parser to say that the article  
> is only one page long, and that it exists only on page 40 of a  
> journal.

I think the idea is that the parser isn't saying much of anything  
about the pages, just that a given string is a textual description of  
them, and a human reader needs to take it from there.

> Granted, neither of these citations, in and of themselves, really  
> lets the reader know whether the entire article, or just a portion  
> of it, is being cited. In this case, start-end pages are important.

I think the reader can read that just as well in HTML as in any  
academic citation on paper.  But a machine parser can't, or at least  
we haven't determined any rules by which a machine parser could.

> I'm not really sure offhand how to remedy this, but I'll certainly  
> think about it and offer up whatever I come up with. (I've tended  
> to do that on this list; raise questions without offering much on  
> solutions. My apologies.) Does anyone else have thoughts about this?

There are specific formatting rules for page ranges in various formal  
citation styles, right?  Are they clear and consistent enough that we  
can just adopt one of those for page ranges?

For example, can we say that any string matching the format "AA-BB"  
means page AA, page BB, and all pages in between?  And any string  
matching the format "A, B, C" means the pages A, B, and C? It's been  
a while since I wrote a formal citation, but I remember there were  
syntax rules for this sort of thing, so how about just adopting those  
rules instead of adding markup?  That seems similar to adopting the  
syntax rules for ISO 8601 instead of adding additional class="year",  
class="month", etc. markup.  And for syntax that doesn't follow a  
given syntax standard, we could use  just like with the date  
syntax standard, e.g. 20 to 30.

Peace,
Scott
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Wed Nov 15 00:10:32 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Wed Nov 15 00:10:39 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Use of microformats in Flash app
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611150010p1c735467l6054a78eb90f6d36@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,

Thought this might interest you... very cunning use of mF detection
with Firefox extension -- and the data is fed into Flash:

http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/11/14/microformats-flash-who-knew/

Thoughts?

Chris

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Wed Nov 15 04:00:01 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Wed Nov 15 04:00:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/15/06, Scott Reynen  wrote:

...
> > If I were to quote something specific, or refer to a specific idea
> > or statement in a journal article on page 40, I would use some
> > variation of the following:
> >
> > John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum Dolor," _Sit Amet_ vol. 81, no. 3 (2000), 40.
> >
> > If, however, I would want to refer to the entire article, I would
> > use the following:
> >
> > John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum Dolor," _Sit Amet_ 81, no.3 (2000), 37-65.
> >
> > I don't see how leaving pages as a simple string can account for
> > this difference. I wouldn't want a parser to say that the article
> > is only one page long, and that it exists only on page 40 of a
> > journal.
>
> I think the idea is that the parser isn't saying much of anything
> about the pages, just that a given string is a textual description of
> them, and a human reader needs to take it from there.

This is kind of tricky though. Jeremy is showing a style common in
history, where citations are represented as notes. So in an
author-date style, his example might be (Doe, 2000:4).

A "page" in that context is simply not the same as a page in a full
bibliographic entry. You'd have to call it "cited-pages" or some such.

...

> > I'm not really sure offhand how to remedy this, but I'll certainly
> > think about it and offer up whatever I come up with. (I've tended
> > to do that on this list; raise questions without offering much on
> > solutions. My apologies.) Does anyone else have thoughts about this?
>
> There are specific formatting rules for page ranges in various formal
> citation styles, right?

Right.

> Are they clear and consistent enough that we
> can just adopt one of those for page ranges?

Here's a problem: there are different algorithms to collapse page
ranges. E.g. "120-129" --> "120-9". Chicago actually lists the rules.

...

> class="month", etc. markup.  And for syntax that doesn't follow a
> given syntax standard, we could use  just like with the date
> syntax standard, e.g. 20 to 30.

+1

Bruce
From james at scrugy.com  Wed Nov 15 09:48:03 2006
From: james at scrugy.com (James Jory)
Date: Wed Nov 15 09:48:15 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
Message-ID: <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>

Larry-

I have been following microformats for the last year or so and just joined
here to start floating some ideas that I've been working on related to wine
and microformats.

I recently launched a wine information aggregation site
(http://www.scrugy.com) that, among other things, recognizes wine tasting
notes formatted using hReview on web pages and in RSS feeds. I've discussed
how this is implemented and other thoughts on my blog
(http://blog.scrugy.com). Of course http://www.corkd.com is already using
hReview (and Scrugy is aggregating those wine reviews) but I've recently
started spreading the word about the potential of wine & microformats with
folks in the online wine community (wine community sites, wine bloggers, and
so on). Let me know if you'd like to get involved.

All-

At this point I'd like to begin proposing and documenting how wine
information and microformats can be used together. My question is what is
the best way to get this done? Since discussion would get very specific to
wine, would the microformats wiki be an appropriate place for this? Or would
it be better to start a new wine specific wiki where people from the wine
industry can collaborate on how wine & microformats can be used together. Of
course the wine specs would build upon and follow the microformat principles
but I'm thinking that a wine-specific site would be more effective at
promoting microformats within the wine community itself.

I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

Thanks,
James


From sam.sethi at vecosys.com  Wed Nov 15 11:39:41 2006
From: sam.sethi at vecosys.com (Sam Sethi)
Date: Wed Nov 15 11:39:46 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>
Message-ID: <00a301c708ed$cc89e910$260110ac@SETHI001>

Hi James 

I own a wine importing company and have like you thought about a wine
microformat for sometime. I have done a little bit of work on this. Maybe we
could combine out thoughts and submit a new microformat for review to this
list? 

Producer: hcard  
Location: geo 

Description:   
Grape
Year
Colour
Taste etc

Thanks in advance 

Sam 

Sam Sethi  | Entrepologist | blog: http://uk.techcrunch.com (UK)  | This
email is:   [X] bloggable    [ ] ask first   [ ] private | 




-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of James
Jory
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 5:48 PM
To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine

Larry-

I have been following microformats for the last year or so and just joined
here to start floating some ideas that I've been working on related to wine
and microformats.

I recently launched a wine information aggregation site
(http://www.scrugy.com) that, among other things, recognizes wine tasting
notes formatted using hReview on web pages and in RSS feeds. I've discussed
how this is implemented and other thoughts on my blog
(http://blog.scrugy.com). Of course http://www.corkd.com is already using
hReview (and Scrugy is aggregating those wine reviews) but I've recently
started spreading the word about the potential of wine & microformats with
folks in the online wine community (wine community sites, wine bloggers, and
so on). Let me know if you'd like to get involved.

All-

At this point I'd like to begin proposing and documenting how wine
information and microformats can be used together. My question is what is
the best way to get this done? Since discussion would get very specific to
wine, would the microformats wiki be an appropriate place for this? Or would
it be better to start a new wine specific wiki where people from the wine
industry can collaborate on how wine & microformats can be used together. Of
course the wine specs would build upon and follow the microformat principles
but I'm thinking that a wine-specific site would be more effective at
promoting microformats within the wine community itself.

I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

Thanks,
James


_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From bjonkman at sobac.com  Wed Nov 15 21:04:59 2006
From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Wed Nov 15 21:06:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com>
References: ,
	,
	<8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <455BAB2B.11978.83E626@bjonkman.sobac.com>

I'm a bit late, but do want to add my bit to the mailing list debate..


This is what was said about "Re: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate [...]"

> > If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a
> > thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard]
> > notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field.
> 
> I concur.  Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail
> clients I've seen, and a simple filter with the convention of
> "tagging" threads with square brackets would probably work fine.

In fact, filtering is so well supported on my mail client that I've already divided the main 
microformats list into "Citation", "Currency", "geo", "Species" and "Genealogy".  My filters 
take care of parsing the messages into individual folders.  What's left over stays in my 
generic "microformats" folder.   

If the mailing list were to be split into multiple sub-lists there can always be a "master" 
list, one that is itself subscribed to all the sub-lists.  The only (minor) problem is that 
replies to a sub-list item from someone subscribed to the master list won't necessarily be seen 
on that sub-list.  This can be overcome by "Reply-to" header munging, but that'll just start 
another debate.

I'm all in favour of integrating forums and mailing lists.  A message or post is just a block 
of data to be stored in a database.  Data is entered or extracted either by e-mail or a 
browser, or a news client, or an IRC client, or a Wiki, or anything else capable of I/O.



The best part of using my mail client is that I use the interface I choose, not the interface 
chosen by the forum admin (yes, there are skinnable forums, but still not necessariy the skins 
I want to choose for myself).  And for those who need them, there's no Web page yet that works 
as well with screen readers as an e-mail client. ("A video screen is just an assistive device 
for the visually dependent" --Geoff Eden)

A related best part is that although I subscribe to many different lists, my mail client 
interface is the same for all of them.  I can treat IETF lists the same way as the microformats 
list, the same way as the OpenOffice list, the same way as the Daily Jokes list. 

Another best part is that I get all my lists in one place.  I don't have to go browsing to 
different parts of the Internets to go find them.  Yes, I've heard of RSS.  But I don't know of 
a way to reply to RSS feeds.  Same for bookmarks.

Finally, yet another best part is that the mailing lists are right here in my work environment.  
I pretty much live in my e-mail client, so I don't need to make a mental context change when 
I'm working on a mailing list.  

Of course, all these prejudices may just be because I'm an e-mail administrator, and a luddite 
to boot :-)

--Bob.


-- -- -- --
Bob Jonkman          http://sobac.com/sobac/    
SOBAC Microcomputer Services              Voice: +1-519-669-0388       
6 James Street, Elmira ON  Canada  N3B 1L5  Cel: +1-519-635-9413
Networking   --   Office & Business Automation   --   Consulting
PGP:0xAE33E989 Fingrprnt:9FAF A6AC B567 BC10 8973 7CF0 CB27 0317



From steve at nascentguruism.com  Thu Nov 16 01:32:33 2006
From: steve at nascentguruism.com (Steve Marshall)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:32:36 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <00a301c708ed$cc89e910$260110ac@SETHI001>
References: <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>
	<00a301c708ed$cc89e910$260110ac@SETHI001>
Message-ID: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't everything you both mentioned
covered by the much more generic proposal for hListing [1]?

If we were to go down the route of a wine ?F, the next step would be
beer, but then the real-ale types would want a real-ale one, and the
lager people would want a lager one, and then there's vodka,
whisk(e)y, schnapps, and I'm not even out of the alcomahols yet.

We'd then have eleventy-billion different ?Fs, one for each and every
possible type of product one person in the world is interested in, and
then everything on the intertubes would be marked up differently and
we may as well have just switched to XML and killed off all hopes for
a common base for a semantic web here and now.

[1]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-proposal
-- 
http://nascentguruism.com

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Nov 16 04:01:53 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:01:57 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>
References: <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>
Message-ID: <21e770780611160401t7bb06ae7m54e56be37192b668@mail.gmail.com>

There was a discussion on this exact topic a few days ago:
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007125.html

Have a read through that, there are a few suggestions. I would first
attempt to mark-up as much as possible with existing microformats.
hListing was mentioned, you should also consider hReview and hCards.

-brian

On 11/15/06, James Jory  wrote:
> Larry-
>
> I have been following microformats for the last year or so and just joined
> here to start floating some ideas that I've been working on related to wine
> and microformats.
>
> I recently launched a wine information aggregation site
> (http://www.scrugy.com) that, among other things, recognizes wine tasting
> notes formatted using hReview on web pages and in RSS feeds. I've discussed
> how this is implemented and other thoughts on my blog
> (http://blog.scrugy.com). Of course http://www.corkd.com is already using
> hReview (and Scrugy is aggregating those wine reviews) but I've recently
> started spreading the word about the potential of wine & microformats with
> folks in the online wine community (wine community sites, wine bloggers, and
> so on). Let me know if you'd like to get involved.
>
> All-
>
> At this point I'd like to begin proposing and documenting how wine
> information and microformats can be used together. My question is what is
> the best way to get this done? Since discussion would get very specific to
> wine, would the microformats wiki be an appropriate place for this? Or would
> it be better to start a new wine specific wiki where people from the wine
> industry can collaborate on how wine & microformats can be used together. Of
> course the wine specs would build upon and follow the microformat principles
> but I'm thinking that a wine-specific site would be more effective at
> promoting microformats within the wine community itself.
>
> I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From james at scrugy.com  Thu Nov 16 08:07:30 2006
From: james at scrugy.com (James Jory)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:07:36 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801c70999$5253ac10$1601a8c0@Impulse>

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't everything you both 
> mentioned covered by the much more generic proposal for hListing [1]?

I think you misunderstood at least where I'm coming from. I jumped in on
this thread since it was discussing wine but I was not intending to propose
a wine microformat (as the original subject indicates). Anyway, what I was
asking about was the best way to begin the discussion for how wine
information can be represented using (existing) microformats. Yes, hListing
can be used for listing wines for sale/trade, hReview is already being used
for wine reviews, and I'd like to see wineries start using hCard, geo &
hCalendar on their sites. Part of the challenge in the wine industry will be
simply evangelizing the use of microformats and illustrating their benefits.

However, as an industry (wine, that is), we have separate issues that we
need to address. Perhaps most importantly is how to uniquely represent a
wine. Very few producers use UPCs so we have to rely on the wine name in
most cases. And with wines throughout the world often bound by local naming
a labeling rules which are inconsistent, the problem is not an easy one to
solve. Much of this is not specific to microformats but if we want to
accurately represent wines using microformats the two must come together
somehow. I do not see  anything in hListing or hReview that currently
addresses this. If I missed it, please let me know. As an aggregator of wine
information, this issue is very important to me.

As a side question, at what point is the use of additional class names
within an existing microformat considered a "new" microformat? For instance,
if within the "item" for an hReview additional class names were specified
(say, "vintage" and "producer"), is this considered a mis-use of hReview?
The semantics of the hReview are still intact but now there is additional
definition that may help solve what I described above.

> If we were to go down the route of a wine ?F, the next step 
> would be beer, but then the real-ale types would want a 
> real-ale one, and the lager people would want a lager one, 
> and then there's vodka, whisk(e)y, schnapps, and I'm not even 
> out of the alcomahols yet.
> 
> We'd then have eleventy-billion different ?Fs, one for each 
> and every possible type of product one person in the world is 
> interested in, and then everything on the intertubes would be 
> marked up differently and we may as well have just switched 
> to XML and killed off all hopes for a common base for a 
> semantic web here and now.

Jeez, my head hurts. Is this the way you welcome everyone to this list?



From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Thu Nov 16 08:09:51 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:09:55 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>

Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
-brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in the
project if people think it's semi-stupid or "we consider that but then
we figured out it was a bad idea".

hItem is probably a better name indeed.

Regards, etc...
David

On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
> I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my mind.
> I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has
> laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was
> covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and reviewing
> are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things
> you'd do with an item description on the internet.
> On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark something as
> an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that
> item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire
> rather than an actually helpful thing.
> So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of thoughts, but I
> personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
> What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be
> surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which
> case, any links to a justification against?)
>
> James
>
> On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
>
> > I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or design
> > pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type of topic
> > and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it would be
> > used
> >
> > (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the elements
> > from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in particular;
> > geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place. I.e. this
> > proposal is fully based on hCard
> >
> > (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats. For
> > example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If there was
> > a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just extending
> > that with information specific to the wine world; likewise, one could
> > see this being of great use for making car microformats or housing
> > microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
> >
> > (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may even be
> > an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
> > container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
> > things. By having such a container, we ensure that attributes of the
> > thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than the review
> > (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the review has 4
> > wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be obvious to a
> > machine reader)
> >
> > (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template for
> > create new microformats in the future. We do see this pattern in use
> > in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
> > However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
> > parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future progress means
> > the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just the  most
> > important ones)
> >
> > (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of thing is an
> > open question -- we could do it like phone number types in hCard or it
> > could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
> > because it means we can cover a lot of ground without creating new
> > microformats.
> >
> > (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to a hThing
> > microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
> > sketching here):
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Rosemount Estates
> > Diamond Label
> > Cabernet Sauvignon
> > (wine)
> > 
> > 
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Mazda
> > Tribute
> > SUV
> > (automobile)
> > 
> > 
> >
> > Regards, etc...
> > David
> >
> > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
> > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>



-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From james at scrugy.com  Thu Nov 16 08:09:52 2006
From: james at scrugy.com (James Jory)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:09:57 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611160401t7bb06ae7m54e56be37192b668@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004901c70999$a68e5320$1601a8c0@Impulse>

> There was a discussion on this exact topic a few days ago:
> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006
> -November/007125.html
> 
> Have a read through that, there are a few suggestions. I 
> would first attempt to mark-up as much as possible with 
> existing microformats.
> hListing was mentioned, you should also consider hReview and hCards.

Yep, that was the topic that I was replying to. Using existing microformats
is certainly the priority.


From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 16 08:18:26 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:18:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <004801c70999$5253ac10$1601a8c0@Impulse>
References: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>
	<004801c70999$5253ac10$1601a8c0@Impulse>
Message-ID: 

On 11/16/06, James Jory  wrote:
> I think you misunderstood at least where I'm coming from. I jumped in on
> this thread since it was discussing wine but I was not intending to propose
> a wine microformat (as the original subject indicates). Anyway, what I was
> asking about was the best way to begin the discussion for how wine
> information can be represented using (existing) microformats.

I didn't spot one in the previous discussion - but is there a link to
a wine marked up in HTML somewhere on the web?  I have a fair-guess
idea of how to do one with existing formats (but I'd just be guessing
on required data), but we can do a joint effort on here then log it as
an example on the wiki if you've got a reasonable example (it'd be fun
to do and serve as a good reference in future for other possible
product-specific formats people might suggest - or we might get stuck,
either way, I'd like to try and we'd know if existing formats WILL
work!). :)

But a more exact answer:  Best way to get started is to find some
existing examples in the wild - not microformatted.


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Nov 16 08:22:56 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:23:01 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>

I would voice a few worries...

1) Dublin Core spent YEARS looking at metadata about 'things' and they
narrowed things down to a handful of properties. It has been
brought-up before to possibly model DC terms.

2) when you look for 'real-world' examples you will find "things"
everywhere. There are no shortage of "things"/"items" on the internet,
and while it would be great to model them, it is almost back to the
"boiling the oceans" senario. I'd suggest a more narrow topic than
"things" or "items" - otherwise i'd bet you'd spent alot more than
"tens of hours" on the project.

-brian

On 11/16/06, David Janes  wrote:
> Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
> -brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in the
> project if people think it's semi-stupid or "we consider that but then
> we figured out it was a bad idea".
>
> hItem is probably a better name indeed.
>
> Regards, etc...
> David
>
> On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
> > I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my mind.
> > I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has
> > laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was
> > covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and reviewing
> > are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things
> > you'd do with an item description on the internet.
> > On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark something as
> > an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that
> > item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire
> > rather than an actually helpful thing.
> > So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of thoughts, but I
> > personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
> > What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be
> > surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which
> > case, any links to a justification against?)
> >
> > James
> >
> > On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
> >
> > > I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or design
> > > pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type of topic
> > > and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it would be
> > > used
> > >
> > > (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the elements
> > > from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in particular;
> > > geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place. I.e. this
> > > proposal is fully based on hCard
> > >
> > > (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats. For
> > > example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If there was
> > > a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just extending
> > > that with information specific to the wine world; likewise, one could
> > > see this being of great use for making car microformats or housing
> > > microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
> > >
> > > (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may even be
> > > an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
> > > container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
> > > things. By having such a container, we ensure that attributes of the
> > > thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than the review
> > > (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the review has 4
> > > wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be obvious to a
> > > machine reader)
> > >
> > > (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template for
> > > create new microformats in the future. We do see this pattern in use
> > > in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
> > > However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
> > > parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future progress means
> > > the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just the  most
> > > important ones)
> > >
> > > (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of thing is an
> > > open question -- we could do it like phone number types in hCard or it
> > > could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
> > > because it means we can cover a lot of ground without creating new
> > > microformats.
> > >
> > > (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to a hThing
> > > microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
> > > sketching here):
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Rosemount Estates
> > > Diamond Label
> > > Cabernet Sauvignon
> > > (wine)
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Mazda
> > > Tribute
> > > SUV
> > > (automobile)
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > > Regards, etc...
> > > David
> > >
> > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
> > > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://www.onamine.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Nov 16 08:27:15 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:27:19 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
References: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>
	<004801c70999$5253ac10$1601a8c0@Impulse>
	
Message-ID: <21e770780611160827j7f5274d3l98fdc3ead45806f2@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/16/06, Frances Berriman  wrote:
> ... Best way to get started is to find some
> existing examples in the wild - not microformatted.

+1, do you have a site where there are some wine examples. We need to
pull this out of a "theoretical" idea to an actual page. Then we can
attempt to mark it up with existing microformats and see if there are
any "deficiencies" then determine if those shortfalls are worth
exploring or if that are outside of the 80%, or if they are/will be
covered by other formats, hListing/media-info/etc.?

Sorry James Jory, you first email came across as a new thread for me,
i didn't know if you had seen the previous one or not, apparently you
did.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From steve at nascentguruism.com  Thu Nov 16 08:30:50 2006
From: steve at nascentguruism.com (Steve Marshall)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:30:55 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <004801c70999$5253ac10$1601a8c0@Impulse>
References: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>
	<004801c70999$5253ac10$1601a8c0@Impulse>
Message-ID: <12720aea0611160830p4110dd9fk7c027ddecfdcb404@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/16/06, James Jory  wrote:
> I think you misunderstood at least where I'm coming from. I jumped in on
> this thread since it was discussing wine but I was not intending to propose
> a wine microformat (as the original subject indicates). Anyway, what I was
> asking about was the best way to begin the discussion for how wine
> information can be represented using (existing) microformats.
In that case, yes, I did misunderstand your standpoint.

On 11/16/06, James Jory  wrote:
> However, as an industry (wine, that is), we have separate issues that we
> need to address. Perhaps most importantly is how to uniquely represent a
> wine. Very few producers use UPCs so we have to rely on the wine name in
> most cases. And with wines throughout the world often bound by local naming
> a labeling rules which are inconsistent, the problem is not an easy one to
> solve. Much of this is not specific to microformats but if we want to
> accurately represent wines using microformats the two must come together
> somehow. I do not see  anything in hListing or hReview that currently
> addresses this. If I missed it, please let me know. As an aggregator of wine
> information, this issue is very important to me.
I guess the obvious first question, for me, would be 'can wines be
identified by a URL?'? If so, then rel="bookmark" might be - if my
understanding of rel="bookmark" is correct - appropriate to identify a
wine uniquely. I'm not sure, though, if that'd be a misuse
rel="bookmark".

On 11/16/06, James Jory  wrote:
> As a side question, at what point is the use of additional class names
> within an existing microformat considered a "new" microformat? For instance,
> if within the "item" for an hReview additional class names were specified
> (say, "vintage" and "producer"), is this considered a mis-use of hReview?
> The semantics of the hReview are still intact but now there is additional
> definition that may help solve what I described above.
I'd imagine things like that would fall under the remit of rel="tag"?
Although I'll admit that does feel a little less fine-grained than
might be desirable. Perhaps someone more versed in other ?Fs can offer
some better suggestion for this? Something with properties and values
might be apt.

On 11/16/06, James Jory  wrote:
> Jeez, my head hurts. Is this the way you welcome everyone to this list?
As it happens, that was my first post to the list; apologies if I came
across as overly hostile? I guess my sense of humour doesn't translate
wonderfully online. I was just trying to illustrate the point that a
wine ?F is probably overkill.
-- 
http://nascentguruism.com

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Thu Nov 16 08:36:25 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:36:29 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>

I certainly appreciate the #2 concern and I'll have a look at what
they did in #1. My thought is not to universally capture all
attributibutes of thingyness, but rather a few key concepts that are
more or less already in use, particularly in microformats (i.e. fn,
photo, url; also adr and geo).

This is why in my original post of this subject I mentioned this might
just be a design pattern (which it seems certainly to be) that things
like hWine would be built upon. However, having it as an explicit
microformat may lead to better reuse of concepts as "niche"
microformats are built.

Regards, etc...

On 11/16/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> I would voice a few worries...
>
> 1) Dublin Core spent YEARS looking at metadata about 'things' and they
> narrowed things down to a handful of properties. It has been
> brought-up before to possibly model DC terms.
>
> 2) when you look for 'real-world' examples you will find "things"
> everywhere. There are no shortage of "things"/"items" on the internet,
> and while it would be great to model them, it is almost back to the
> "boiling the oceans" senario. I'd suggest a more narrow topic than
> "things" or "items" - otherwise i'd bet you'd spent alot more than
> "tens of hours" on the project.
>
> -brian
>
> On 11/16/06, David Janes  wrote:
> > Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
> > -brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in the
> > project if people think it's semi-stupid or "we consider that but then
> > we figured out it was a bad idea".
> >
> > hItem is probably a better name indeed.
> >
> > Regards, etc...
> > David
> >
> > On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
> > > I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my mind.
> > > I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has
> > > laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was
> > > covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and reviewing
> > > are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things
> > > you'd do with an item description on the internet.
> > > On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark something as
> > > an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that
> > > item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire
> > > rather than an actually helpful thing.
> > > So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of thoughts, but I
> > > personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
> > > What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be
> > > surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which
> > > case, any links to a justification against?)
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or design
> > > > pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type of topic
> > > > and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it would be
> > > > used
> > > >
> > > > (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the elements
> > > > from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in particular;
> > > > geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place. I.e. this
> > > > proposal is fully based on hCard
> > > >
> > > > (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats. For
> > > > example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If there was
> > > > a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just extending
> > > > that with information specific to the wine world; likewise, one could
> > > > see this being of great use for making car microformats or housing
> > > > microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
> > > >
> > > > (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may even be
> > > > an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
> > > > container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
> > > > things. By having such a container, we ensure that attributes of the
> > > > thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than the review
> > > > (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the review has 4
> > > > wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be obvious to a
> > > > machine reader)
> > > >
> > > > (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template for
> > > > create new microformats in the future. We do see this pattern in use
> > > > in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
> > > > However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
> > > > parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future progress means
> > > > the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just the  most
> > > > important ones)
> > > >
> > > > (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of thing is an
> > > > open question -- we could do it like phone number types in hCard or it
> > > > could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
> > > > because it means we can cover a lot of ground without creating new
> > > > microformats.
> > > >
> > > > (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to a hThing
> > > > microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
> > > > sketching here):
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Rosemount Estates
> > > > Diamond Label
> > > > Cabernet Sauvignon
> > > > (wine)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Mazda
> > > > Tribute
> > > > SUV
> > > > (automobile)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > Regards, etc...
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
> > > > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Janes
> > Founder, BlogMatrix
> > http://www.blogmatrix.com
> > http://www.onamine.com
> > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> brian suda
> http://suda.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From james at abscond.org  Thu Nov 16 08:46:05 2006
From: james at abscond.org (James Darling)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:46:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>

I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be  
quite powerful, enabling you to easily see that this is a thing, it  
is owned by this hcard, it is for sale at this price and these are  
several reviews of it. These are the thoughts that tempt me. Although  
I'm still torn.

James

On 16 Nov 2006, at 16:36, David Janes wrote:

> I certainly appreciate the #2 concern and I'll have a look at what
> they did in #1. My thought is not to universally capture all
> attributibutes of thingyness, but rather a few key concepts that are
> more or less already in use, particularly in microformats (i.e. fn,
> photo, url; also adr and geo).
>
> This is why in my original post of this subject I mentioned this might
> just be a design pattern (which it seems certainly to be) that things
> like hWine would be built upon. However, having it as an explicit
> microformat may lead to better reuse of concepts as "niche"
> microformats are built.
>
> Regards, etc...
>
> On 11/16/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
>> I would voice a few worries...
>>
>> 1) Dublin Core spent YEARS looking at metadata about 'things' and  
>> they
>> narrowed things down to a handful of properties. It has been
>> brought-up before to possibly model DC terms.
>>
>> 2) when you look for 'real-world' examples you will find "things"
>> everywhere. There are no shortage of "things"/"items" on the  
>> internet,
>> and while it would be great to model them, it is almost back to the
>> "boiling the oceans" senario. I'd suggest a more narrow topic than
>> "things" or "items" - otherwise i'd bet you'd spent alot more than
>> "tens of hours" on the project.
>>
>> -brian
>>
>> On 11/16/06, David Janes  wrote:
>> > Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
>> > -brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in  
>> the
>> > project if people think it's semi-stupid or "we consider that  
>> but then
>> > we figured out it was a bad idea".
>> >
>> > hItem is probably a better name indeed.
>> >
>> > Regards, etc...
>> > David
>> >
>> > On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
>> > > I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my  
>> mind.
>> > > I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has
>> > > laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was
>> > > covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and  
>> reviewing
>> > > are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things
>> > > you'd do with an item description on the internet.
>> > > On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark  
>> something as
>> > > an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that
>> > > item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire
>> > > rather than an actually helpful thing.
>> > > So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of  
>> thoughts, but I
>> > > personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
>> > > What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be
>> > > surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which
>> > > case, any links to a justification against?)
>> > >
>> > > James
>> > >
>> > > On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or  
>> design
>> > > > pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type  
>> of topic
>> > > > and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it  
>> would be
>> > > > used
>> > > >
>> > > > (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the  
>> elements
>> > > > from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in  
>> particular;
>> > > > geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place.  
>> I.e. this
>> > > > proposal is fully based on hCard
>> > > >
>> > > > (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats.  
>> For
>> > > > example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If  
>> there was
>> > > > a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just  
>> extending
>> > > > that with information specific to the wine world; likewise,  
>> one could
>> > > > see this being of great use for making car microformats or  
>> housing
>> > > > microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
>> > > >
>> > > > (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may  
>> even be
>> > > > an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
>> > > > container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
>> > > > things. By having such a container, we ensure that  
>> attributes of the
>> > > > thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than  
>> the review
>> > > > (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the  
>> review has 4
>> > > > wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be  
>> obvious to a
>> > > > machine reader)
>> > > >
>> > > > (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template  
>> for
>> > > > create new microformats in the future. We do see this  
>> pattern in use
>> > > > in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
>> > > > However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
>> > > > parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future  
>> progress means
>> > > > the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just  
>> the  most
>> > > > important ones)
>> > > >
>> > > > (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of  
>> thing is an
>> > > > open question -- we could do it like phone number types in  
>> hCard or it
>> > > > could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
>> > > > because it means we can cover a lot of ground without  
>> creating new
>> > > > microformats.
>> > > >
>> > > > (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to  
>> a hThing
>> > > > microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
>> > > > sketching here):
>> > > >
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > Rosemount Estates
>> > > > Diamond Label
>> > > > Cabernet Sauvignon
>> > > > (wine)
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > >
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > Mazda
>> > > > Tribute
>> > > > SUV
>> > > > (automobile)
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > >
>> > > > Regards, etc...
>> > > > David
>> > > >
>> > > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
>> > > > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
>> > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
>> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > David Janes
>> > Founder, BlogMatrix
>> > http://www.blogmatrix.com
>> > http://www.onamine.com
>> > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > microformats-discuss mailing list
>> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> brian suda
>> http://suda.co.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
>
> -- 
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://www.onamine.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Thu Nov 16 08:59:42 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Thu Nov 16 08:59:47 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611160859x42369a2w9eff580632ea790d@mail.gmail.com>

Exactly my thoughts, except for the torn part.

My thinking, which is probably non-representative of the group, is
that if (1) something is being widely done on the web and (2) there is
really meaning there, then there's probably value in having a
microformat there to represent it, even if the applications are not
apparent yet. That's not to say "go willy-nilly uFing everything"; the
rigor required for the process pretty well ensures this won't happen
anyway.

Regards, etc...

On 11/16/06, James Darling  wrote:
> I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be
> quite powerful, enabling you to easily see that this is a thing, it
> is owned by this hcard, it is for sale at this price and these are
> several reviews of it. These are the thoughts that tempt me. Although
> I'm still torn.
>
> James
>
> On 16 Nov 2006, at 16:36, David Janes wrote:
>
> > I certainly appreciate the #2 concern and I'll have a look at what
> > they did in #1. My thought is not to universally capture all
> > attributibutes of thingyness, but rather a few key concepts that are
> > more or less already in use, particularly in microformats (i.e. fn,
> > photo, url; also adr and geo).
> >
> > This is why in my original post of this subject I mentioned this might
> > just be a design pattern (which it seems certainly to be) that things
> > like hWine would be built upon. However, having it as an explicit
> > microformat may lead to better reuse of concepts as "niche"
> > microformats are built.
> >
> > Regards, etc...
> >
> > On 11/16/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> >> I would voice a few worries...
> >>
> >> 1) Dublin Core spent YEARS looking at metadata about 'things' and
> >> they
> >> narrowed things down to a handful of properties. It has been
> >> brought-up before to possibly model DC terms.
> >>
> >> 2) when you look for 'real-world' examples you will find "things"
> >> everywhere. There are no shortage of "things"/"items" on the
> >> internet,
> >> and while it would be great to model them, it is almost back to the
> >> "boiling the oceans" senario. I'd suggest a more narrow topic than
> >> "things" or "items" - otherwise i'd bet you'd spent alot more than
> >> "tens of hours" on the project.
> >>
> >> -brian
> >>
> >> On 11/16/06, David Janes  wrote:
> >> > Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
> >> > -brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in
> >> the
> >> > project if people think it's semi-stupid or "we consider that
> >> but then
> >> > we figured out it was a bad idea".
> >> >
> >> > hItem is probably a better name indeed.
> >> >
> >> > Regards, etc...
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> > On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
> >> > > I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my
> >> mind.
> >> > > I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has
> >> > > laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was
> >> > > covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and
> >> reviewing
> >> > > are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things
> >> > > you'd do with an item description on the internet.
> >> > > On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark
> >> something as
> >> > > an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that
> >> > > item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire
> >> > > rather than an actually helpful thing.
> >> > > So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of
> >> thoughts, but I
> >> > > personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
> >> > > What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be
> >> > > surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which
> >> > > case, any links to a justification against?)
> >> > >
> >> > > James
> >> > >
> >> > > On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or
> >> design
> >> > > > pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type
> >> of topic
> >> > > > and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it
> >> would be
> >> > > > used
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the
> >> elements
> >> > > > from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in
> >> particular;
> >> > > > geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place.
> >> I.e. this
> >> > > > proposal is fully based on hCard
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats.
> >> For
> >> > > > example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If
> >> there was
> >> > > > a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just
> >> extending
> >> > > > that with information specific to the wine world; likewise,
> >> one could
> >> > > > see this being of great use for making car microformats or
> >> housing
> >> > > > microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may
> >> even be
> >> > > > an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
> >> > > > container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
> >> > > > things. By having such a container, we ensure that
> >> attributes of the
> >> > > > thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than
> >> the review
> >> > > > (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the
> >> review has 4
> >> > > > wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be
> >> obvious to a
> >> > > > machine reader)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template
> >> for
> >> > > > create new microformats in the future. We do see this
> >> pattern in use
> >> > > > in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
> >> > > > However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
> >> > > > parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future
> >> progress means
> >> > > > the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just
> >> the  most
> >> > > > important ones)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of
> >> thing is an
> >> > > > open question -- we could do it like phone number types in
> >> hCard or it
> >> > > > could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
> >> > > > because it means we can cover a lot of ground without
> >> creating new
> >> > > > microformats.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to
> >> a hThing
> >> > > > microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
> >> > > > sketching here):
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Rosemount Estates
> >> > > > Diamond Label
> >> > > > Cabernet Sauvignon
> >> > > > (wine)
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > 
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Mazda
> >> > > > Tribute
> >> > > > SUV
> >> > > > (automobile)
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > 
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Regards, etc...
> >> > > > David
> >> > > >
> >> > > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
> >> > > > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> >> > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> >> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> >> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> >> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > David Janes
> >> > Founder, BlogMatrix
> >> > http://www.blogmatrix.com
> >> > http://www.onamine.com
> >> > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> >> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> >> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> brian suda
> >> http://suda.co.uk
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> microformats-discuss mailing list
> >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Janes
> > Founder, BlogMatrix
> > http://www.blogmatrix.com
> > http://www.onamine.com
> > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From skuwamot at adobe.com  Thu Nov 16 11:03:10 2006
From: skuwamot at adobe.com (Sho Kuwamoto)
Date: Thu Nov 16 11:03:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E1100031EB6E6498E11331478FF10A0014727A6@namail4.corp.adobe.com>

Hi all.

2c from an infrequent poster...

It seems pretty clear to me that certain products have lots and lots of content written about them (book reviews, movie reviews, and wine reviews) whereas others do not (schnapps, for example).

For those areas where intense reviewing happens, there is always industry specific information that would be good to standardize. For example, movies always have a director. Wine (almost) always has a vintage.


To me, it seems useful to have a format dedicated to the description of wine, since there is so much wine information out there in the world. In the glorious future, it would be great to be able to use this information in a consistent way.


One caveat is that the microformats list may not a great place to find a ton of people to discuss the pros and cons of how to structure this information. The kinds of discussions you want to have are really specific to the world of wine (e.g., how do you characterize "Meritage"?)


-Sho
--
Sho Kuwamoto
Adobe Flex Builder
www.adobe.com

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org 
> [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On 
> Behalf Of Steve Marshall
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:33 AM
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't everything you both mentioned
> covered by the much more generic proposal for hListing [1]?
> 
> If we were to go down the route of a wine ?F, the next step would be
> beer, but then the real-ale types would want a real-ale one, and the
> lager people would want a lager one, and then there's vodka,
> whisk(e)y, schnapps, and I'm not even out of the alcomahols yet.
> 
> We'd then have eleventy-billion different ?Fs, one for each and every
> possible type of product one person in the world is interested in, and
> then everything on the intertubes would be marked up differently and
> we may as well have just switched to XML and killed off all hopes for
> a common base for a semantic web here and now.
> 
> [1]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-proposal
> -- 
> http://nascentguruism.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> 

From tarbymm at lemoyne.edu  Thu Nov 16 11:08:39 2006
From: tarbymm at lemoyne.edu (Michelle Tarby)
Date: Thu Nov 16 11:08:45 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Exporting Hcard data
Message-ID: <455CB737.7030709@lemoyne.edu>

I'm not sure if this is possible or not, but I am trying to add hCard 
formatting to our web directory. Everything is working fine (at least I 
can see it with the FF Tails extension). What I'd like to do now is add 
a "download vcard" link to each entry. I was trying to use the X2V 
transformation, but think I might be running into a problem because the 
page where the results are displayed pulls from a SQL database table.

Any suggestions would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

-- 
Michelle Tarby
Director of Web Services
Information Technology
Le Moyne College
http://www.lemoyne.edu
tarbymm@lemoyne.edu
*****************************
?We should be taught not to wait for inspiration to start a thing. Action always generates inspiration. Inspiration seldom generates action.?
? Frank Tibolt

From scott at randomchaos.com  Thu Nov 16 12:40:29 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Thu Nov 16 12:40:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Exporting Hcard data
In-Reply-To: <455CB737.7030709@lemoyne.edu>
References: <455CB737.7030709@lemoyne.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, Michelle Tarby wrote:

> I'm not sure if this is possible or not, but I am trying to add  
> hCard formatting to our web directory. Everything is working fine  
> (at least I can see it with the FF Tails extension). What I'd like  
> to do now is add a "download vcard" link to each entry. I was  
> trying to use the X2V transformation, but think I might be running  
> into a problem because the page where the results are displayed  
> pulls from a SQL database table.

I'm pretty most of what goes through X2V is pulled from a database,  
so that really shouldn't be an issue.  Can you give a URL for hCards  
failing to transform with X2V?

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 14:03:45 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 14:05:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <5E1100031EB6E6498E11331478FF10A0014727A6@namail4.corp.adobe.com>
References: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>
	<5E1100031EB6E6498E11331478FF10A0014727A6@namail4.corp.adobe.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<5E1100031EB6E6498E11331478FF10A0014727A6@namail4.corp.adobe.com>, Sho
Kuwamoto  writes

>One caveat is that the microformats list may not a great place to find
>a ton of people to discuss the pros and cons of how to structure this
>information. The kinds of discussions you want to have are really
>specific to the world of wine (e.g., how do you characterize
>"Meritage"?)

c/f recent discussion about uF mailing lists, and my comment:

        For example, several academic and professional taxonomists have
        told me in e-mail that they would be interested in the species
        proposal, (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna), but do
        not have the time to follow a general mailing list; indeed, a
        couple asked me specifically if I would set up a separate
        mailing list for the subject.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 14:01:51 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 14:07:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>
References: <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>
Message-ID: 

In message <007201c708de$36783d00$1601a8c0@Impulse>, James Jory
 writes

>At this point I'd like to begin proposing and documenting how wine
>information and microformats can be used together.

It would be possible to mark up grape varieties, yeast and, indeed,
Botritis, using the 'Species' microformat. Say:


    
        
                Pinot noir
        
    

&

    
        
                UCD 522
        
    

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 14:09:08 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 14:10:50 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

In message
, Bruce
D'Arcus  writes

>A "page" in that context is simply not the same as a page in a full
>bibliographic entry. You'd have to call it "cited-pages" or some such.

It seems to me that the following properties might be recorded:

        the total number of pages in a publication (be that a book,
        magazine, thesis, etc.)

        the total number of pages in a publication series (be that a set
        of books, a year's worth of magazines, etc.)

        the total number of pages in a cited article, book-chapter, or
        other section of a publication

        the unique single page of a cited section
        the start page of a cited section
        the end page of a cited section
        the page run (e.g. "3-4, 6, 8") of a cited section

        the unique single page of a quotation
        the start page of a quotation
        the end page of a quotation
        the page run (e.g. "3-4, 6, 8") of a quotation

At the very least, if we include some, but not all. of those in hCite,
we should name them in such a way as to make it possible, preferably
simple, to include the others in future.

Presumably, existing citation standards have already addressed the
issues of page number categories?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Thu Nov 16 14:40:24 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Thu Nov 16 14:40:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611160859x42369a2w9eff580632ea790d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160859x42369a2w9eff580632ea790d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611161440r1627427bs8c3a851249c2e483@mail.gmail.com>

I've opened up a wikipage [1] to capture this discussion. I'll punch
in some examples soon also.

Regards, etc...

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/items-brainstorming

On 11/16/06, David Janes  wrote:
> Exactly my thoughts, except for the torn part.
>
> My thinking, which is probably non-representative of the group, is
> that if (1) something is being widely done on the web and (2) there is
> really meaning there, then there's probably value in having a
> microformat there to represent it, even if the applications are not
> apparent yet. That's not to say "go willy-nilly uFing everything"; the
> rigor required for the process pretty well ensures this won't happen
> anyway.
>
> Regards, etc...
>
> On 11/16/06, James Darling  wrote:
> > I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be
> > quite powerful, enabling you to easily see that this is a thing, it
> > is owned by this hcard, it is for sale at this price and these are
> > several reviews of it. These are the thoughts that tempt me. Although
> > I'm still torn.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On 16 Nov 2006, at 16:36, David Janes wrote:
> >
> > > I certainly appreciate the #2 concern and I'll have a look at what
> > > they did in #1. My thought is not to universally capture all
> > > attributibutes of thingyness, but rather a few key concepts that are
> > > more or less already in use, particularly in microformats (i.e. fn,
> > > photo, url; also adr and geo).
> > >
> > > This is why in my original post of this subject I mentioned this might
> > > just be a design pattern (which it seems certainly to be) that things
> > > like hWine would be built upon. However, having it as an explicit
> > > microformat may lead to better reuse of concepts as "niche"
> > > microformats are built.
> > >
> > > Regards, etc...
> > >
> > > On 11/16/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> > >> I would voice a few worries...
> > >>
> > >> 1) Dublin Core spent YEARS looking at metadata about 'things' and
> > >> they
> > >> narrowed things down to a handful of properties. It has been
> > >> brought-up before to possibly model DC terms.
> > >>
> > >> 2) when you look for 'real-world' examples you will find "things"
> > >> everywhere. There are no shortage of "things"/"items" on the
> > >> internet,
> > >> and while it would be great to model them, it is almost back to the
> > >> "boiling the oceans" senario. I'd suggest a more narrow topic than
> > >> "things" or "items" - otherwise i'd bet you'd spent alot more than
> > >> "tens of hours" on the project.
> > >>
> > >> -brian
> > >>
> > >> On 11/16/06, David Janes  wrote:
> > >> > Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
> > >> > -brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in
> > >> the
> > >> > project if people think it's semi-stupid or "we consider that
> > >> but then
> > >> > we figured out it was a bad idea".
> > >> >
> > >> > hItem is probably a better name indeed.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards, etc...
> > >> > David
> > >> >
> > >> > On 11/14/06, James Darling  wrote:
> > >> > > I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my
> > >> mind.
> > >> > > I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has
> > >> > > laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was
> > >> > > covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and
> > >> reviewing
> > >> > > are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things
> > >> > > you'd do with an item description on the internet.
> > >> > > On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark
> > >> something as
> > >> > > an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that
> > >> > > item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire
> > >> > > rather than an actually helpful thing.
> > >> > > So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of
> > >> thoughts, but I
> > >> > > personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
> > >> > > What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be
> > >> > > surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which
> > >> > > case, any links to a justification against?)
> > >> > >
> > >> > > James
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or
> > >> design
> > >> > > > pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type
> > >> of topic
> > >> > > > and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it
> > >> would be
> > >> > > > used
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the
> > >> elements
> > >> > > > from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in
> > >> particular;
> > >> > > > geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place.
> > >> I.e. this
> > >> > > > proposal is fully based on hCard
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats.
> > >> For
> > >> > > > example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If
> > >> there was
> > >> > > > a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just
> > >> extending
> > >> > > > that with information specific to the wine world; likewise,
> > >> one could
> > >> > > > see this being of great use for making car microformats or
> > >> housing
> > >> > > > microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may
> > >> even be
> > >> > > > an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
> > >> > > > container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
> > >> > > > things. By having such a container, we ensure that
> > >> attributes of the
> > >> > > > thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than
> > >> the review
> > >> > > > (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the
> > >> review has 4
> > >> > > > wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be
> > >> obvious to a
> > >> > > > machine reader)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template
> > >> for
> > >> > > > create new microformats in the future. We do see this
> > >> pattern in use
> > >> > > > in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
> > >> > > > However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
> > >> > > > parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future
> > >> progress means
> > >> > > > the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just
> > >> the  most
> > >> > > > important ones)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of
> > >> thing is an
> > >> > > > open question -- we could do it like phone number types in
> > >> hCard or it
> > >> > > > could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
> > >> > > > because it means we can cover a lot of ground without
> > >> creating new
> > >> > > > microformats.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to
> > >> a hThing
> > >> > > > microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
> > >> > > > sketching here):
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > Rosemount Estates
> > >> > > > Diamond Label
> > >> > > > Cabernet Sauvignon
> > >> > > > (wine)
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > Mazda
> > >> > > > Tribute
> > >> > > > SUV
> > >> > > > (automobile)
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Regards, etc...
> > >> > > > David
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
> > >> > > > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
> > >> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > >> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >> > >
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > >> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > David Janes
> > >> > Founder, BlogMatrix
> > >> > http://www.blogmatrix.com
> > >> > http://www.onamine.com
> > >> > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > >> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> brian suda
> > >> http://suda.co.uk
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > David Janes
> > > Founder, BlogMatrix
> > > http://www.blogmatrix.com
> > > http://www.onamine.com
> > > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://www.onamine.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 14:42:59 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 14:44:29 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
Message-ID: 

In message <4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>, James
Darling  writes

>I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be
>quite powerful

But what is an "item"? A physical object? A concept? A word? A
paragraph?


If anything, I'd work in the opposite direction; find common properties
which can be marked up, perhaps:

        price (cf currency proposal)
        colour
        dimensions
        weight/ mass
        date (-range)
        manufacturer
        catalogue/ part number

and then see which current or future microformats might use them.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Thu Nov 16 14:51:04 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Thu Nov 16 14:51:08 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
Message-ID: <21e523c20611161451v7653382ek9c7490f45289d08e@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not going to get too philosophical -- item in this particular
context means a "thing", though I can see the abiguity you're getting
at.

I'm definitely ... and you can see this in the wikipage ... looking to
work closer to the intersection than the union of attributes, as
obviously one issue is open ended and the other is not.

I'll probably mine hReview and hListing, both the specs and how
they're used, to understand how this is used in the wild.

Regards, etc...

On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message <4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>, James
> Darling  writes
>
> >I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be
> >quite powerful
>
> But what is an "item"? A physical object? A concept? A word? A
> paragraph?
>
>
> If anything, I'd work in the opposite direction; find common properties
> which can be marked up, perhaps:
>
>         price (cf currency proposal)
>         colour
>         dimensions
>         weight/ mass
>         date (-range)
>         manufacturer
>         catalogue/ part number
>
> and then see which current or future microformats might use them.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From james at abscond.org  Thu Nov 16 15:06:14 2006
From: james at abscond.org (James Darling)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:06:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
Message-ID: <63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>

I think the purpose of this is that it is vague. Or perhaps  
'Versatile' might be a more positive word.
I think it covers a lot of ground hListing covers (all of it?),  
however, I think what me and David are struggling with is it being  
stuck on items just for sale. I can imagine this being easily  
expandable to sub hItems, such as hWine. (at the risk of sounding  
like I'm waltzing in and turning everything upside down, I could see  
hLisiting as a subhItem)
One possible solution this could provide that has just popped into me  
head is you could store your Vinyl collection as hItems (delicious  
library plugin?). Throw in hcards and managing the collection during  
a divorce gets easier! I don't see hItems being suitable.

Ideas are only just coming into my head, but the idea of simply  
marking things as items excites me, and the more I think about it,  
the less problems I have with it.
But I'm still open to having my dreams dashed.

James Darling

On 16 Nov 2006, at 22:42, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> In message <4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>, James
> Darling  writes
>
>> I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be
>> quite powerful
>
> But what is an "item"? A physical object? A concept? A word? A
> paragraph?
>
>
> If anything, I'd work in the opposite direction; find common  
> properties
> which can be marked up, perhaps:
>
>         price (cf currency proposal)
>         colour
>         dimensions
>         weight/ mass
>         date (-range)
>         manufacturer
>         catalogue/ part number
>
> and then see which current or future microformats might use them.
>
> -- 
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:   www.no2id.net/>
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Thu Nov 16 15:14:03 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:14:08 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>

hListing can definitely be about an hItem, but I think they're separate:

- hListings can be about people (I assume)
- the title of a listing (for example) "the greatest record ever made"
is not necessarily the same as the title of the item (i.e. "Who's
Next")
- the price in a listing may be different that the "real" price/value
of an item (!)

I'm also reading all my old posts about Google Base [1] which covers a
lot of this ground and is in use on the web.

I share you excitement of the idea and shall pursue further.

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/google%20base/

On 11/16/06, James Darling  wrote:
> I think the purpose of this is that it is vague. Or perhaps
> 'Versatile' might be a more positive word.
> I think it covers a lot of ground hListing covers (all of it?),
> however, I think what me and David are struggling with is it being
> stuck on items just for sale. I can imagine this being easily
> expandable to sub hItems, such as hWine. (at the risk of sounding
> like I'm waltzing in and turning everything upside down, I could see
> hLisiting as a subhItem)
> One possible solution this could provide that has just popped into me
> head is you could store your Vinyl collection as hItems (delicious
> library plugin?). Throw in hcards and managing the collection during
> a divorce gets easier! I don't see hItems being suitable.
>
> Ideas are only just coming into my head, but the idea of simply
> marking things as items excites me, and the more I think about it,
> the less problems I have with it.
> But I'm still open to having my dreams dashed.
>
> James Darling
>
> On 16 Nov 2006, at 22:42, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> > In message <4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>, James
> > Darling  writes
> >
> >> I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be
> >> quite powerful
> >
> > But what is an "item"? A physical object? A concept? A word? A
> > paragraph?
> >
> >
> > If anything, I'd work in the opposite direction; find common
> > properties
> > which can be marked up, perhaps:
> >
> >         price (cf currency proposal)
> >         colour
> >         dimensions
> >         weight/ mass
> >         date (-range)
> >         manufacturer
> >         catalogue/ part number
> >
> > and then see which current or future microformats might use them.
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> >                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:   > www.no2id.net/>
> >
> >                 Free Our Data:  
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 15:25:23 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:26:59 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5D08EB51-3B1C-4EF8-8371-564BC59A555D@lava.net>
	
Message-ID: 

In message , Tantek ?elik
 writes

>>>>>>>        http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar

>>>>>>>didn't list the hCalendar
>>>>>>> fields, let alone say which are mandatory and which are optional!

>hCalendar issues may be added to this page:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-issues

And they may be raised on this mailing list; and were, on 16 October
(that's one month ago, today).

>As cited, there are objections to rewriting/reorganizing fairly
>established spec pages without discussion and at least a reasonable
>resemblance of consensus.

If there is no consensus as to what the hCalendar fields are, and which
are mandatory, what are we doing here?

>The key with edits on the wiki, as with any wiki or source control
>system, is small contained edits that solve exactly the problem they
>are meant to solve, and no more.

1. You're either presenting your opinion as fact, again; or simply
inventing facts.

2. Such edits were made:

  

and were reverted by you.

One month on, the issues raised in my original post are unaddressed.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 15:27:46 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:31:21 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2fKX+WxXdMWFFw5i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>, Scott
Reynen  writes

>> So, if page count is out of the scope of hCite, and if it turns out
>>(from my observation about media-info) that it doesn't fit into the
>>media-info format, would page count just not be marked up at all?
>
>What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality?

The ability to scrape pages listing books, and use the results to build
a page like:

        

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 15:36:59 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:38:28 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message <21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>,
David Janes  writes

>- the price in a listing may be different that the "real" price/value
>of an item (!)

Then we need "price" (if not "price", "list-price", "offer-price",
"minimum-bid", "current-bid", etc.) and "value".

It should be possible, of course, to label all of these, and especially
the latter, with a date (-time).

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 15:39:43 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:41:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: <2eCH+gz$wNUFFwZA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <002101c6fe84$133f6de0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
	
	<2eCH+gz$wNUFFwZA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: 

In message <2eCH+gz$wNUFFwZA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett
 writes

>In message , Ryan
>King  writes
>
>>> The problem is that the current Microformat process is not at all
>>>scalable.
>
>>You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D
>
>And you imply that "we" do not. Can you explain your reasoning, please,
>including your definition of "we"?

??

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From ross.singer at library.gatech.edu  Thu Nov 16 15:44:10 2006
From: ross.singer at library.gatech.edu (Ross Singer)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:44:13 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>

Again, and I don't mean to sound dismissal:

What does the inclusion of 'total number of pages' grant you here?

If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute
bird book aggregation fail miserably?

It seems to me that the citation aggregator would be/could be doing
something useful with the citation that it has to get the user to a
place where total number of pages could be learned.

Knowing the full number of pages in a work brings you really nowhere
closer to actually 'getting' the cited work in question.  That, in my
mind, is the complete 'point' and 'scope' of a citation.  To help
people who are looking for the work that is being mentioned to locate
it for themselves, whether that be hunting them down manually (via the
traditionial APA, MLA, Chicago styles) or by machine (through
OpenURL).

-Ross.

On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message <96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>, Scott
> Reynen  writes
>
> >> So, if page count is out of the scope of hCite, and if it turns out
> >>(from my observation about media-info) that it doesn't fit into the
> >>media-info format, would page count just not be marked up at all?
> >
> >What exactly would we gain from this markup in terms of functionality?
>
> The ability to scrape pages listing books, and use the results to build
> a page like:
>
>         
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 15:50:40 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 15:51:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611160827j7f5274d3l98fdc3ead45806f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <12720aea0611160132x15f00b0fsa8c089d665d3e788@mail.gmail.com>
	<004801c70999$5253ac10$1601a8c0@Impulse>
	
	<21e770780611160827j7f5274d3l98fdc3ead45806f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<21e770780611160827j7f5274d3l98fdc3ead45806f2@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda  writes

>do you have a site where there are some wine examples

Try a search using the "wine finder" at:

        

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Nov 16 16:01:50 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 16:05:49 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>, Ross
Singer  writes

>If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute
>bird book aggregation fail miserably?

I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From lists at hubmed.org  Thu Nov 16 16:17:48 2006
From: lists at hubmed.org (Alf Eaton)
Date: Thu Nov 16 16:18:06 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>					<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>		<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>	<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <455CFFAC.5060607@hubmed.org>

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In message
> <23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>, Ross
> Singer  writes
> 
>> If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute
>> bird book aggregation fail miserably?
> 
> I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment.
> 

I think the question is whether you're already integrating other data,
such as images of book covers, from other sources, or whether *all* the
data about the book needs to be in the citation.

Personally, I think having as much information as possible is a good
thing. This is most important for 'self' hCitations, less so for
'bibliography' hCitations, where you just need enough information to
identify the cited work.

alf.
From ross.singer at library.gatech.edu  Thu Nov 16 16:37:31 2006
From: ross.singer at library.gatech.edu (Ross Singer)
Date: Thu Nov 16 16:37:40 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <23b83f160611161637u783c5e4cxd955f32fe714fec3@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment.
>

Look, we all have our use cases.  All I'm asking is that if total
number of pages is omitted, are your hopes dashed?

My use case, OpenURL linking, has fairly specific (and, honestly,
arbitrary) requirements.  ISxN (or, if not available, journal/book
title), volume, year.  If there's a DOI, then we're golden.

Honestly, the more metadata the merrier.  But I think inclusion of
more metadata elements than absolutely necessary will be a turn off.

-Ross.

> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
>
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Thu Nov 16 17:10:16 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Thu Nov 16 17:17:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: <112B0AC0-35AF-4328-A6D1-812960F1C8F2@gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> It seems to me that the following properties might be recorded:

This is a nice list, Andy. Thanks!

>         the total number of pages in a publication (be that a book,
>         magazine, thesis, etc.)
>
>         the total number of pages in a publication series (be that  
> a set
>         of books, a year's worth of magazines, etc.)
>
>         the total number of pages in a cited article, book-chapter, or
>         other section of a publication

I've only seen total number of pages listed for books, but if we do  
end up including that for books, I don't see why we couldn't also  
include it for other kinds of publications.

>         the unique single page of a cited section
>         the start page of a cited section
>         the end page of a cited section
>         the page run (e.g. "3-4, 6, 8") of a cited section
>
>         the unique single page of a quotation
>         the start page of a quotation
>         the end page of a quotation
>         the page run (e.g. "3-4, 6, 8") of a quotation

It seems like these sections would go together well. That is, a cited  
"section" and a cited quotation would involve pretty much the same  
reference structure. Whether I paraphrase a section on page 4 of   
Brian's _Using Microformats_ book, or get a direct quote from that  
page, I would use:

(Suda, 2006: 4)

or

Brian Suda, _Using Microformats_ (2006), 4.

or some variation of that. Citation standards don't differentiate by  
what specifically is being cited (paraphrased section or direct  
quote)...at least the standards that I'm aware of.

I would also add to this list:

	the page run (e.g. "1-41") of a cited article, book section, or  
other section of a publication.

Which is different from the "total number of pages" in an article.

> At the very least, if we include some, but not all. of those in hCite,
> we should name them in such a way as to make it possible, preferably
> simple, to include the others in future.

This seems reasonable. using the 20  
to 30 model seems to work well. Maybe differentiating how  
pages are being used shouldn't be done in the code wrapped  
immediately around the pages, but in the container in which the pages  
are listed. So for marking up a work that includes all the pages:




John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum," 20-30


Jane Doe, _Dolor Sit Amet_ 455Pp.




Parsers would know that, because HCITE is inside bibliography  
container, it is listing all the pages in a publication. For a book,  
"pages" would refer to the total number of pages. In contrast,  
specifying a specific page in a work:




John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum," 20-23


Jane Doe, _Dolor Sit Amet_ 320




Parsers would know that, because an HCITE is inside a "citation"  
container, it is listing only those pages being cited, and not the  
entirety of the work. And perhaps that hcite that only refers to  
specific pages could somehow be connected to the bibliography hcite  
of the same publication.

"Bibliography" and "citation" may not be the best terms or most  
flexible, but it makes sense to me to put the hCite in a specific  
context (bibliography, footnotes/endnotes, etc...) and go from there.  
Maybe this is too complicated....Thoughts?

Another option might be to specify, inside the class attribute with  
"pages", the kind of pages listing it is:

Specific pages cited:

John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum," 20-23


Listing of all pages in a work:

John Doe, "Lorem Ipsum," 20-30


Saying that the work is x pages long:

John Doe, _Lorem Ipsum_ 10


These may not be the best class names either, and also too  
complicated....Thoughts?

Best,
Jeremy



From scott at randomchaos.com  Thu Nov 16 17:47:28 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Thu Nov 16 17:47:43 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <23b83f160611161637u783c5e4cxd955f32fe714fec3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<23b83f160611161637u783c5e4cxd955f32fe714fec3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2006, at 6:37 PM, Ross Singer wrote:

> Honestly, the more metadata the merrier.  But I think inclusion of
> more metadata elements than absolutely necessary will be a turn off.

Exactly.  We'd all like more structured data on the web.  But  
creating structures for data doesn't always lead to more structured  
data.  Sometimes it leads to less, because between the structure and  
the data is publishers, who we have to convince to apply the  
structures to the data.  That's why we target the the most common  
(e.g. 80%) use cases.  It's nothing personal against  
hYourFavoriteDataType.  And the data isn't going anywhere, so  
whatever we don't microformat today can always be microformatted  
tomorrow.

Peace,
Scott
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Thu Nov 16 19:32:49 2006
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Thu Nov 16 19:32:33 2006
Subject: hCite Transformations Test (was Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress)
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9063CFB4-20E7-4AC1-BACF-C0DB26AD8E00@gmail.com>

On Nov 13, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Brian Suda wrote:

> This is the new home for all the citation transformations:
> http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcite/

Thanks Brian.

I've marked up some book examples at:

http://clioweb.org/hcitations.php

For some reason, when I do a transformation, I get the author name  
for both TITLE and AUTHOR when I put the author first in the markup,  
like so:

	

		
			Roy Rosenzweig
		,
		The Park and the People: A History of Central  
Park.
		
			Ithaca,
			NY:
			Cornell University Press
		, 1998.
	


The parser associated the correct TITLE and AUTHOR, however, if I put  
the publication's title first, then the author name:

	

		The Park and the People: A History of Central  
Park.
		
			Roy Rosenzweig
		.
		
			Ithaca,
			NY:
			Cornell University Press
		, 1998.
	


I'm assuming this has something to do with the multiple FNs.

It gets the publisher's name OK too, but not the publisher location.   
I may have these coded incorrectly, but will be glad to make any  
corrections. I also plan to put up more examples of other types of  
publications, if that is helpful.

Best,
Jeremy



From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Thu Nov 16 21:48:52 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Thu Nov 16 21:48:58 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <007c01c70a0c$125ae2e0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>

Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> c/f recent discussion about uF mailing lists, and my comment:
>>         For example, several academic and professional taxonomists have
>>         told me in e-mail that they would be interested in the species
>>         proposal, (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna), but do
>>         not have the time to follow a general mailing list; indeed, a
>>         couple asked me specifically if I would set up a separate
>>         mailing list for the subject. 

Funny how we get to have deja vi all over again, eh?  ;-)

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/




From S.D.Price at open.ac.uk  Fri Nov 17 01:09:39 2006
From: S.D.Price at open.ac.uk (S.D.Price)
Date: Fri Nov 17 01:10:06 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
Message-ID: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB39@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>

Ho do I post to this forum?



-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Schinkel
Sent: 17 November 2006 05:49
To: 'Microformats Discuss'
Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine

Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> c/f recent discussion about uF mailing lists, and my comment:
>>         For example, several academic and professional taxonomists
have
>>         told me in e-mail that they would be interested in the
species
>>         proposal, (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna), but
do
>>         not have the time to follow a general mailing list; indeed, a
>>         couple asked me specifically if I would set up a separate
>>         mailing list for the subject. 

Funny how we get to have deja vi all over again, eh?  ;-)

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/




_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 01:12:35 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Nov 17 01:12:44 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <007c01c70a0c$125ae2e0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
References: 
	<007c01c70a0c$125ae2e0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

On 11/17/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> >> c/f recent discussion about uF mailing lists, and my comment:
> >>         For example, several academic and professional taxonomists have
> >>         told me in e-mail that they would be interested in the species
> >>         proposal, (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna), but do
> >>         not have the time to follow a general mailing list; indeed, a
> >>         couple asked me specifically if I would set up a separate
> >>         mailing list for the subject.
>
> Funny how we get to have deja vi all over again, eh?  ;-)


Lets not (cross posting).  Keep the discussion about mailing lists to
the mailing list thread.



-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From S.D.Price at open.ac.uk  Fri Nov 17 01:25:04 2006
From: S.D.Price at open.ac.uk (S.D.Price)
Date: Fri Nov 17 01:25:11 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Contextual link information using microformats
Message-ID: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>

Hi - does anyone know of a microformat for presenting contextual link
information?

 

I want to provide information on document formats like PDF in a standard
way which is useful for everyone (e.g. link PDF, 500KB). How can I use
that extra span to repurpose the link using microformats?

 

Here is my code:

 

#link {

  background-image : url(pdf.gif);

  background-position : left;

  background-repeat : no-repeat;

  padding-left:20px;

}

 

a#link {

  text-decoration:none; 

  color:#666666;

  font-size:0.8em;  

}

 

a#link span {  

  text-decoration:underline; 

  color:blue;

  font-size:1.2em;

}

 

 

Document (PDF, 2 pages, 145KB)

 

 

 

Thanks
Steven 

From james at scrugy.com  Fri Nov 17 05:57:05 2006
From: james at scrugy.com (James Jory)
Date: Fri Nov 17 05:57:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <00a301c708ed$cc89e910$260110ac@SETHI001>
Message-ID: <005301c70a50$440d9230$1601a8c0@Impulse>

Sam Sethi wrote:
> I own a wine importing company and have like you thought 
> about a wine microformat for sometime. I have done a little 
> bit of work on this. Maybe we could combine out thoughts and 
> submit a new microformat for review to this list? 
> 
> Producer: hcard
> Location: geo 
> 
> Description:   
> Grape
> Year
> Colour
> Taste etc

Sounds good to me. I'm interested. 

With the recent start of hItem, though, being able to represent a wine as an
hItem seems to have promise.

http://microformats.org/wiki/items-brainstorming

Should we combine efforts there or just focus on wine separately for now and
roll up our results as things take shape? 

-James


From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 06:01:20 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Fri Nov 17 06:01:24 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message
> <23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>, Ross
> Singer  writes
>
> >If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute
> >bird book aggregation fail miserably?
>
> I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment.

I'm going to challenge you here, Andy, because this is yet another
time (e.g. not the first) when I think you're stepping over the line.
You're being hostile, and I don't think it's appropriate for
productive discussion.

Bruce
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Nov 17 06:01:36 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Nov 17 06:01:39 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <005301c70a50$440d9230$1601a8c0@Impulse>
References: <00a301c708ed$cc89e910$260110ac@SETHI001>
	<005301c70a50$440d9230$1601a8c0@Impulse>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611170601g7c1efd32o67b4878e92188e98@mail.gmail.com>

Now called "item-brainstorming" (non-plural). We need more content in
"item-examples" first though please [1], if anyone wants add even a
little content.

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/item-examples

On 11/17/06, James Jory  wrote:
> Sam Sethi wrote:
> > I own a wine importing company and have like you thought
> > about a wine microformat for sometime. I have done a little
> > bit of work on this. Maybe we could combine out thoughts and
> > submit a new microformat for review to this list?
> >
> > Producer: hcard
> > Location: geo
> >
> > Description:
> > Grape
> > Year
> > Colour
> > Taste etc
>
> Sounds good to me. I'm interested.
>
> With the recent start of hItem, though, being able to represent a wine as an
> hItem seems to have promise.
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/items-brainstorming
>
> Should we combine efforts there or just focus on wine separately for now and
> roll up our results as things take shape?
>
> -James
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Nov 17 06:12:32 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Nov 17 06:12:35 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Contextual link information using microformats
In-Reply-To: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>
References: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>

Fully exploit HTML [1] first, I think. Something like this:

Document (PDF, 2 pages, 145KB)

Beyond that, there may be overlap with media [2]

Regards, etc...

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/links.html#edef-A
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-examples

On 11/17/06, S.D.Price  wrote:
> Hi - does anyone know of a microformat for presenting contextual link
> information?
>
>
>
> I want to provide information on document formats like PDF in a standard
> way which is useful for everyone (e.g. link PDF, 500KB). How can I use
> that extra span to repurpose the link using microformats?
>
>
>
> Here is my code:
>
>
>
> #link {
>
>   background-image : url(pdf.gif);
>
>   background-position : left;
>
>   background-repeat : no-repeat;
>
>   padding-left:20px;
>
> }
>
>
>
> a#link {
>
>   text-decoration:none;
>
>   color:#666666;
>
>   font-size:0.8em;
>
> }
>
>
>
> a#link span {
>
>   text-decoration:underline;
>
>   color:blue;
>
>   font-size:1.2em;
>
> }
>
>
>
>
>
> Document (PDF, 2 pages, 145KB)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
> Steven
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 06:18:11 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Fri Nov 17 06:18:31 2006
Subject: hCite Transformations Test (was Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress)
In-Reply-To: <9063CFB4-20E7-4AC1-BACF-C0DB26AD8E00@gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9063CFB4-20E7-4AC1-BACF-C0DB26AD8E00@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780611170618j9d46755rf59849aa6a185b5@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for that, we are certainly going to need many, many test cases.
Once our HG system is back-up and working, i will be compiling lots of
examples, so please do keep coding-up some examples.

On 11/17/06, Jeremy Boggs  wrote:
> For some reason, when I do a transformation, I get the author name
> for both TITLE and AUTHOR when I put the author first in the markup,
> like so:
...

> I'm assuming this has something to do with the multiple FNs.

--- correct, at the moment we are using class="fn" for the title. It
is currently looking for the first instance of 'fn', in at least on of
your cases it was the fn inside author - it's not a big it's feature
:) How to actually mark-up titles is still an open issue, but i don't
want to go there yet.

> It gets the publisher's name OK too, but not the publisher location.
> I may have these coded incorrectly, but will be glad to make any
> corrections.

You do have a class="location", but at the moment the XSLTs are
looking for location to be a child of an 'adr' element. So if you were
to add:


 

 Ithaca,
  NY:
  Cornell University Press
 




> I also plan to put up more examples of other types of
> publications, if that is helpful.

--- that would be great! the other thing that would help is "expected
output" you can certailny mark-up the data with LOADS of extras, like
authors email address, publishers email, etc. but what is the expected
output for various formats. Some of the hCite data will be lost in
conversion - it is possible to add loads of data about a publisher,
but if there is no corresponding "Publisher-Email {}" in BibTeX then
it is lost, where as in Dublin Core it is preserved (this isn't
something you need to really worry about), but if there is both an
HTML file and a .bib file, it helps for me to compare my XSLT output
with what you expected to be decoded. Make sense?

Thanks,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 06:27:03 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Nov 17 06:27:12 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hRewiew and blockquote check
Message-ID: 

Is this allowed (it is picked up by tails, but is it correct)? (using
cite inside a blockquote so that it can be associated as the source of
the quote and the reviewer of the hReview - or should I have the
class="hreview" on a div exterior to the blockquote and also the cite
after the ?):






We have always found TheCompany to be on the ball with regards to
the services given. We very much see TheCompany as our data partner.
We have been with them for over 5 years and see no reason why we would
change supplier.


Joe Bloggs, Director of Stuff, Partner
Company Nov 16,
2006





Thanks guys,

F
-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 06:45:49 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Fri Nov 17 06:46:06 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <00ab01c70a57$197b1e00$0702a8c0@Guides.local>

Frances Berriman wrote: 
>> On 11/17/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
>> > Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> >
>> > >> c/f recent discussion about uF mailing lists, and my comment:
>> > >>         For example, several academic and professional taxonomists
have
>> > >>         told me in e-mail that they would be interested in the
species
>> > >>         proposal, (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna),
but do
>> > >>         not have the time to follow a general mailing list; indeed,
a
>> > >>         couple asked me specifically if I would set up a separate
>> > >>         mailing list for the subject.
>> >
>> > Funny how we get to have deja vi all over again, eh?  ;-)
>> 
>> Lets not (cross posting).  Keep the discussion about mailing lists to the
mailing list thread.

What cross posting?  Are you trying to say it's inappropropriate to bring up
a prior discussion when it is relevant to the current discussion?

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/




From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 06:50:32 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Nov 17 06:50:35 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c70a57$197b1e00$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
References: 
	<00ab01c70a57$197b1e00$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
Message-ID: 

On 11/17/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
> What cross posting?  Are you trying to say it's inappropropriate to bring up
> a prior discussion when it is relevant to the current discussion?

I didn't really mean what you said.  The prior part you quoted
regarding splitting the mailing list down into proposals etc.  Of
course discussing other similar proposals is suitable :)




-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From scott at randomchaos.com  Fri Nov 17 07:05:39 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Fri Nov 17 07:06:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 17, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> I'm going to challenge you here, Andy, because this is yet another
> time (e.g. not the first) when I think you're stepping over the line.
> You're being hostile, and I don't think it's appropriate for
> productive discussion.

I agree.

Peace,
Scott
From james at scrugy.com  Fri Nov 17 07:07:38 2006
From: james at scrugy.com (James Jory)
Date: Fri Nov 17 07:07:46 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> It would be possible to mark up grape varieties, yeast and, 
> indeed, Botritis, using the 'Species' microformat. Say:

Yes, I've looked at "species" for this purpose and it certainly works for
parts of the wine industry. However, at this point at least, we're more
interested in tackling the issues as it relates to the consumer realm.

Thanks,
James


From microformats at glitchnyc.com  Fri Nov 17 07:51:19 2006
From: microformats at glitchnyc.com (Eric Skiff)
Date: Fri Nov 17 07:51:30 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>

---sorry if this gets posted a few times, i got some bouncebacks
because I didn't send in plaintext---

Hi everyone, I'm a little new here, so feel free to take this with a
grain of salt, but I definitely just had an "oh my god" moment about
this.

I think that the work you're doing right now on hItem could be some of
the most important microformat work yet. I'm sure you've already made
the connection I just came to, but here's why I'm excited.

hItem is a bit vague on purpose to make it flexible, but in general, i
think it will be most useful for describing physical goods. If, like
andy suggests, it has all the price information that a catalog entry
might have, I can easily see any list of products on amazon, froogle,
etc, being marked up with a combination of hItem and hListing.
Suddenly all the product listings on the web can become a database.

This could also make hReview much more powerful in my opinion,
assuming hItem is embeddable in the same way hCard is. Using our wine
example from before, you could just link to an hItem from the review.

I'd definitely advocate for hItem including information about its
creator, and optionally its producer and vendor. These of course could
be hCard entries or links, and I think it would give us a flexible way
to include much of the information that felt very "wine" specific such
as Vintage (aka, producer and production date). It seems as though an
hItem's production and creation could also be considered events, so
reusing hEvent here seems to make a lot of sense.

What do you think? Is this more complicated than it needs to be, or is
the reuse of other microformats here a good thing?

Also, is this ground already being covered by hListing (which seems to
be looking to include some of this info), or would you simply have
hListings of events (hEvent),  people (hCard), and  things (hItem)?

Thanks
-Eric

On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message <21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>,
> David Janes  writes
>
> >- the price in a listing may be different that the "real" price/value
> >of an item (!)
>
> Then we need "price" (if not "price", "list-price", "offer-price",
> "minimum-bid", "current-bid", etc.) and "value".
>
> It should be possible, of course, to label all of these, and especially
> the latter, with a date (-time).
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Eric Skiff
Nonprofit Web & Database Admin, Consultant,
Podcaster, Pinko Marketer
718-809-8692

Blog    : http://GlitchNYC.com
Podcast : http://AlternativeMusicShow.com
Puppets!: http://FeltUpTV.com
From tarbymm at lemoyne.edu  Fri Nov 17 09:17:45 2006
From: tarbymm at lemoyne.edu (Michelle Tarby)
Date: Fri Nov 17 09:17:50 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Exporting Hcard data
Message-ID: <455DEEB9.20703@lemoyne.edu>

OK, I'm making progress - I wasn't passing any kind of ID, so that's why X2V would just spin away.

What I have noticed is that it looks like the vCard that's generated adds a bunch of extra commas, so I'm guessing I don't have my page formatted correctly.





<%= rs("FirstName") %>  <%= rs("LastName") %>


<%= rs("Title") %>


<%= rs("Department") %>




<%= rs("Street1") %>  <%= rs("Street2") %>


<%= rs("Phone") %>

 



I'm wondering if I'm confusing where to use div vs. span or if that makes a difference.  Any information would be appreciated!


>I'm pretty most of what goes through X2V is pulled from a database,  
>so that really shouldn't be an issue.  Can you give a URL for hCards  
>failing to transform with X2V?
>
>Peace,
>Scott

From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 09:26:46 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Nov 17 09:26:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Exporting Hcard data
In-Reply-To: <455DEEB9.20703@lemoyne.edu>
References: <455DEEB9.20703@lemoyne.edu>
Message-ID: 

On 11/17/06, Michelle Tarby  wrote:
> OK, I'm making progress - I wasn't passing any kind of ID, so that's why X2V would just spin away.
>
> What I have noticed is that it looks like the vCard that's generated adds a bunch of extra commas, so I'm guessing I don't have my page formatted correctly.
>
> 

> 
> 
<%= rs("FirstName") %>  <%= rs("LastName") %>

> 
<%= rs("Title") %>

> 
<%= rs("Department") %>

> 

> 
<%= rs("Street1") %>  <%= rs("Street2") %>

> 
<%= rs("Phone") %>

>  
> 

>
> I'm wondering if I'm confusing where to use div vs. span or if that makes a difference.  Any information would be appreciated!

It makes no real difference.  Infact, in the examples in the spec,
divs and spans are simply used for demonstrational purposes.
Generally, you should be making every effort to mark up the
information as semantically as possible and this is often done without
using any divs or spans at all (and instead using lists, paragraphs,
etc. and putting the classes on these).  So - yeah.  That shouldn't be
your issue.

I can't spot anything out of the oridinary above.  I'd have done the address as:



<%= rs("Street1") %>  <%=
rs("Street2") %>


but that's about it.  Sorry :(

What's does your result look like (with the extra commas)?

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From tarbymm at lemoyne.edu  Fri Nov 17 09:36:02 2006
From: tarbymm at lemoyne.edu (Michelle Tarby)
Date: Fri Nov 17 09:36:08 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Exporting Hcard data
Message-ID: <455DF302.4020309@lemoyne.edu>

Thanks - I didn't think it did, but this is my first attempt at this, so 
I figured it was better to learn the correct way to do it!

Here's what my vCard looks like when I am done - I don't understand 
where the commas or the CHARSET declaration are coming from:

BEGIN:VCARD
PRODID:-//suda.co.uk//X2V 0.8.4.2 (BETA)//EN
SOURCE:http://www.lemoyne.edu/directories/faculty_staff/vcard.asp?UserID=4307
NAME:Le Moyne College Office of Information Technology
VERSION:3.0
N;CHARSET=utf-8:Tarby;Michelle;;;
ORG;CHARSET=utf-8:Information Technology - INF
FN;CHARSET=utf-8:Michelle  Tarby
EMAIL:tarbymm@lemoyne.edu
TITLE;CHARSET=utf-8:Webmaster
ADR;CHARSET=utf-8:;;;;;;
TEL:315-445-4234
END:VCARD

>It makes no real difference.  Infact, in the examples in the spec,
>divs and spans are simply used for demonstrational purposes.
>...
>What's does your result look like (with the extra commas)?
>-- 
>Frances Berriman
>http://fberriman.com

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 10:30:58 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 10:32:32 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<49D5C016-3B21-47A5-9628-2FAB47453D61@gmail.com>
	
	<10B3C3DC-8A4E-4C46-B75D-197D39519348@gmail.com>
	<96C16E38-A8AF-4C42-A583-2EC1516D5362@randomchaos.com>
	<7DSU5oMyPPXFFwBE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <$VW185Xi$fXFFwAC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
, Bruce
D'Arcus  writes

>On 11/16/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>> In message
>> <23b83f160611161544y2ef3b016qbe906c310f2d42a6@mail.gmail.com>, Ross
>> Singer  writes
>>
>> >If you can't grab total number of pages, does your plan of absolute
>> >bird book aggregation fail miserably?
>>
>> I'm not sure what you think can be achieved by such an asinine comment.
>
>I'm going to challenge you here, Andy, because this is yet another
>time (e.g. not the first) when I think you're stepping over the line.
>You're being hostile, and I don't think it's appropriate for
>productive discussion.

You appear to have mis-typed "Ross". HTH.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 10:33:16 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 10:34:37 2006
Subject: hCite Transformations Test (was Re: [uf-discuss] hCite progress)
In-Reply-To: <9063CFB4-20E7-4AC1-BACF-C0DB26AD8E00@gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9063CFB4-20E7-4AC1-BACF-C0DB26AD8E00@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1J13LpYsBgXFFwx6@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <9063CFB4-20E7-4AC1-BACF-C0DB26AD8E00@gmail.com>, Jeremy
Boggs  writes

>For some reason, when I do a transformation, I get the author name  for
>both TITLE and AUTHOR when I put the author first in the markup,  like
>so:
>
>       

>               
>                       Roy Rosenzweig
>               ,
>               The Park and the People: A History of
>Central  Park.

Presumably, that's because the author name is the first "fn" inside the
"hcite".

Why use "fn" and not "title"?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 10:37:56 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 10:39:17 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite progress
In-Reply-To: <112B0AC0-35AF-4328-A6D1-812960F1C8F2@gmail.com>
References: <21e770780611130839t11281064t4388f890a43dfbf1@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<21e770780611131120p2b23136dya0cadd6b100a03a5@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	<112B0AC0-35AF-4328-A6D1-812960F1C8F2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message <112B0AC0-35AF-4328-A6D1-812960F1C8F2@gmail.com>, Jeremy
Boggs  writes

>>         the total number of pages in a cited article, book-chapter, or
>>         other section of a publication

>Whether I paraphrase a section on page 4 of   Brian's _Using
>Microformats_ book, or get a direct quote from that  page, I would use:
>
>(Suda, 2006: 4)
>
>or
>
>Brian Suda, _Using Microformats_ (2006), 4.

Note that I'm using "section" to mean a discrete chapter , article or
similar discrete sib-division, not just "a bit of an article".

>I would also add to this list:
>
>       the page run (e.g. "1-41") of a cited article, book section, or
>other section of a publication.
>
>Which is different from the "total number of pages" in an article.

and which I included, as:

        the page run (e.g. "3-4, 6, 8") of a cited section


[other points noted]

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 10:43:41 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 10:45:19 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCBE4DD-B9F8-4BDC-B849-CA2B876FEAEF@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>, Eric
Skiff  writes

>hItem is a bit vague on purpose to make it flexible, but in general, i
>think it will be most useful for describing physical goods.

Consider these two examples.

        A bottle of wine is an item. So is the case of 12 bottles in
        which it is sold.

Is the wine inside the bottle also an object in its own right?

and

        A brick is an object.
        So is the wall of which that forms part.
        So is the room of which that forms part.
        So is the apartment of which that forms part.
        So is the apartment block of which that forms part.

Is the city of which the apartment block forms a part, also an object?

If I mark up the apartment block with all of its aforesaid components,
in a nested manner, and apply a height, does it apply to the block, or
the brick?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 10:45:41 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 10:47:19 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Contextual link information using microformats
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>
	<21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>, David
Janes  writes

>id="link"

Why ID? Why not class?

>hreflang="en"
>type="application/pdf"

I wonder how widely used those two are, in real life?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 10:47:54 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 10:49:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>
References: 
	<005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>
Message-ID: 

In message <005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>, James Jory
 writes

>Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> It would be possible to mark up grape varieties, yeast and,
>> indeed, Botritis, using the 'Species' microformat. Say:
>
>Yes, I've looked at "species" for this purpose and it certainly works
>for parts of the wine industry.

Thank you - but which parts of the wine industry uses grapes and yeast
which are (or were) not living things?

> However, at this point at least, we're more interested in tackling the
>issues as it relates to the consumer realm.

There's that interesting "we" again...

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From s.robillard at snet.net  Fri Nov 17 10:54:16 2006
From: s.robillard at snet.net (Steve Robillard)
Date: Fri Nov 17 10:54:26 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Exporting Hcard data
In-Reply-To: <455DF302.4020309@lemoyne.edu>
Message-ID: <00b801c70a79$c8872890$160da8c0@CThq.corp.srps.com>

Michelle,
They are part of the transformation done by x2v and are part of the vcard
spec. If you run one of the sample cards through you will see they are there
as well

Thanks,
Steve 

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Michelle
Tarby
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:36 PM
To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Subject: [uf-discuss] Exporting Hcard data

Thanks - I didn't think it did, but this is my first attempt at this, so I
figured it was better to learn the correct way to do it!

Here's what my vCard looks like when I am done - I don't understand where
the commas or the CHARSET declaration are coming from:

BEGIN:VCARD
PRODID:-//suda.co.uk//X2V 0.8.4.2 (BETA)//EN
SOURCE:http://www.lemoyne.edu/directories/faculty_staff/vcard.asp?UserID=430
7
NAME:Le Moyne College Office of Information Technology VERSION:3.0
N;CHARSET=utf-8:Tarby;Michelle;;; ORG;CHARSET=utf-8:Information Technology -
INF FN;CHARSET=utf-8:Michelle  Tarby EMAIL:tarbymm@lemoyne.edu
TITLE;CHARSET=utf-8:Webmaster ADR;CHARSET=utf-8:;;;;;;
TEL:315-445-4234
END:VCARD

>It makes no real difference.  Infact, in the examples in the spec, divs 
>and spans are simply used for demonstrational purposes.
>...
>What's does your result look like (with the extra commas)?
>--
>Frances Berriman
>http://fberriman.com

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From ryan at technorati.com  Fri Nov 17 11:10:16 2006
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:10:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application 
In-Reply-To: <4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
References: 	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>	
	
	<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:36 AM, Gary Barber wrote:

> I have been  slowly implementing microformats across our clients  
> sites.
>
> However I have noted a number of instances within a few addresses  
> that just don't seem to fit in microformats.
>
> *Case 1*
>
> Reply Paid Addresses

How about class="extended-address"?

> *Case 2*
>
> Freecall numbers

vCard has no such categories, so there's currently no way to say this  
in hcard.

> *Case 3*
>
> How do you express the case of an address as
>
> Work telephone (understand this one)
> Fax number (understand this one)
>
> this is the bit I'm having trouble with
>
> Freecall (from one country - AU eg 1800 1234 1234)
> Freecall (from another country - NZ 800 232 222)
>
> in this case the numbers all go to the work telephone just they are  
> free to use (well local call costs)

I don't know the phone system of AU or NZ, so I'm not sure what the  
constraints are. In the US, I've found that giving area codes but  
leaving off the '+1' is usually good enough.

-ryan
From ryan at technorati.com  Fri Nov 17 11:14:02 2006
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:14:06 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: <192D46A3-F4E8-4EC2-BA9C-28D649A941AC@technorati.com>

On Nov 14, 2006, at 9:34 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

> On 11/14/06, Ciaran McNulty  wrote:
>> On 11/14/06, Ciaran McNulty  wrote:
>> > Office
>>
>> Sorry, Mobile makes more  
>> sense.
>
> Does that work?  I can't think of a wild example with that in to test
> (and I'm walking out of the office door now, honest!).  That would be
> a smarter way to do things though for non-US terminology, I agree.

It works. There's tests for this in the test suite.

In my opinion, this is the best way to go. Sure it's not quite an  
abbreviation, but we don't have a  tag yet. :D

-ryan
From ryan at technorati.com  Fri Nov 17 11:15:45 2006
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:15:49 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard and "ATTN" text?
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84ce626f0611141023j5ea1eb73q150d80ca0311a9e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79F906A8-0E82-42C4-9DC4-10443DCAE88B@technorati.com>

On Nov 14, 2006, at 10:23 AM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:
>    MyCompany Inc.,
>    ATTN: Joe Blow,
>    123 Somewhere Ave W
>    Vancouver
>    BC
>    WWW111
>
> Now, I'm not sure what to do with the "ATTN: Joe Blow".

You can use 'extended-address'.

-ryan
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 11:15:30 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:17:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<007c01c70a0c$125ae2e0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
	
Message-ID: 

In message
, Frances
Berriman  writes

>On 11/17/06, Mike Schinkel  wrote:
>> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
>> >> c/f recent discussion about uF mailing lists, and my comment:
>> >>         For example, several academic and professional taxonomists have
>> >>         told me in e-mail that they would be interested in the species
>> >>         proposal, (and one astronomer, likewise, for mars/ luna), but do
>> >>         not have the time to follow a general mailing list; indeed, a
>> >>         couple asked me specifically if I would set up a separate
>> >>         mailing list for the subject.
>>
>> Funny how we get to have deja vi all over again, eh?  ;-)
>
>
>Lets not (cross posting).

Let's not claim that cross posting was used, where none was.

>  Keep the discussion about mailing lists to
>the mailing list thread.

My comment was pertinent here. Please don't try to tell me which
*relevant* issues I may and may not raise.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From ryan at technorati.com  Fri Nov 17 11:18:13 2006
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:18:19 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hRewiew and blockquote check
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <338E1A2A-4BB2-4FCE-8DC8-0B56D59C937C@technorati.com>

On Nov 17, 2006, at 6:27 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

> Is this allowed (it is picked up by tails, but is it correct)? (using
> cite inside a blockquote so that it can be associated as the source of
> the quote and the reviewer of the hReview - or should I have the
> class="hreview" on a div exterior to the blockquote and also the cite
> after the ?):
>
> 

>
> 
We have always found  class="fn">TheCompany to be on the ball with regards to
> the services given. We very much see TheCompany as our data partner.
> We have been with them for over 5 years and see no reason why we would
> change supplier.

>
> Joe Bloggs,  class="role">Director of Stuff, Partner
> Company Nov 16,
> 2006
>
> 


I see no problem with this. I think the only microformat that takes  
into account 
 and  is hAtom.

-ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 11:21:41 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:23:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hcard real world application
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<83a2ad2f0611131910k1ce7e74tf6d7cdded92b40df@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	<4559AA31.4010305@radharc.com.au>
	
Message-ID: 

In message , Ryan
King  writes

>> Freecall numbers
>
>vCard has no such categories, so there's currently no way to say this
>in hcard.

As I noted recently, on the "hcard-issues" page:

        :


        The "type" for "tel" lacks a "textphone" option (for the devices
        used by, e.g., people who are deaf or have speech difficulties.
        Example:

                

Does anyone know toe process for getting vCard expanded (or whether such
moves might already be in progress)?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 11:24:08 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:24:24 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hRewiew and blockquote check
In-Reply-To: <338E1A2A-4BB2-4FCE-8DC8-0B56D59C937C@technorati.com>
References: 
	<338E1A2A-4BB2-4FCE-8DC8-0B56D59C937C@technorati.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/17/06, Ryan King  wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2006, at 6:27 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:
>
> > Is this allowed (it is picked up by tails, but is it correct)? (using
> > cite inside a blockquote so that it can be associated as the source of
> > the quote and the reviewer of the hReview - or should I have the
> > class="hreview" on a div exterior to the blockquote and also the cite
> > after the 
?):
> >
> > 

> >
> > 
We have always found  > class="fn">TheCompany to be on the ball with regards to
> > the services given. We very much see TheCompany as our data partner.
> > We have been with them for over 5 years and see no reason why we would
> > change supplier.

> >
> > Joe Bloggs,  > class="role">Director of Stuff, Partner
> > Company Nov 16,
> > 2006
> >
> > 

>
> I see no problem with this. I think the only microformat that takes
> into account 
 and  is hAtom.
>

Okay. Thank you, Ryan.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Nov 17 11:28:37 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:28:46 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <21e523c20611171128j1f9b57dfr1675c89a728c7d74@mail.gmail.com>

My intention is to stick to (1) analyzing existing behavior/use on the
web and (2) using the 80/20 rule. I think we'll be fine. If
compositing objects becomes an issue (for example, describing an Audi
with 4 Pirelli tires) then we'll hash it out.

Regards, etc...

On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message
> <3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>, Eric
> Skiff  writes
>
> >hItem is a bit vague on purpose to make it flexible, but in general, i
> >think it will be most useful for describing physical goods.
>
> Consider these two examples.
>
>         A bottle of wine is an item. So is the case of 12 bottles in
>         which it is sold.
>
> Is the wine inside the bottle also an object in its own right?
>
> and
>
>         A brick is an object.
>         So is the wall of which that forms part.
>         So is the room of which that forms part.
>         So is the apartment of which that forms part.
>         So is the apartment block of which that forms part.
>
> Is the city of which the apartment block forms a part, also an object?
>
> If I mark up the apartment block with all of its aforesaid components,
> in a nested manner, and apply a height, does it apply to the block, or
> the brick?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From microformats at glitchnyc.com  Fri Nov 17 11:29:21 2006
From: microformats at glitchnyc.com (Eric Skiff)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:29:27 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <3d6832e50611171129t9637889m7a0d7c3f2d35c7b2@mail.gmail.com>

>If I mark up the apartment block with all of its aforesaid components,
>in a nested manner, and apply a height, does it apply to the block, or
>the brick?

In the immortal words of Bill & Ted:
"Whoa."

Aside from the philosophical implications of marking up any "thing" as
a hItem or even a tree of hItems, here's my take on hItem enabling
cataloging of various items and bundles of items.

To look at a real world example, FreshDirect sells both single items
and bulk cases.

They're each treated as a single row in their product database,
without worrying about nesting 12 individual cans of soup in the
"case"

They've both got a price, description, producer, contents, etc.

I suppose you could have an hItem which contained other hItems, but I
wonder if we're getting close to the 20% there. I'd love to hear other
people's thoughts, as I'm obviously new to this discussion.

Back on the pseudo-philosophical note - could you have a hCard that
contained other hCards? Would that make you schizophrenic? :)

On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message
> <3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>, Eric
> Skiff  writes
>
> >hItem is a bit vague on purpose to make it flexible, but in general, i
> >think it will be most useful for describing physical goods.
>
> Consider these two examples.
>
>         A bottle of wine is an item. So is the case of 12 bottles in
>         which it is sold.
>
> Is the wine inside the bottle also an object in its own right?
>
> and
>
>         A brick is an object.
>         So is the wall of which that forms part.
>         So is the room of which that forms part.
>         So is the apartment of which that forms part.
>         So is the apartment block of which that forms part.
>
> Is the city of which the apartment block forms a part, also an object?
>
> If I mark up the apartment block with all of its aforesaid components,
> in a nested manner, and apply a height, does it apply to the block, or
> the brick?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Eric Skiff
Nonprofit Web & Database Admin, Consultant,
Podcaster, Pinko Marketer
718-809-8692

Blog    : http://GlitchNYC.com
Podcast : http://AlternativeMusicShow.com
Puppets!: http://FeltUpTV.com
From tarbymm at lemoyne.edu  Fri Nov 17 11:30:25 2006
From: tarbymm at lemoyne.edu (Michelle Tarby)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:30:43 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Exporting Hcard data
Message-ID: <455E0DD1.2070007@lemoyne.edu>

Thanks - that makes sense to me now.  My last question is when I import 
one of the cards into my Thunderbird address book, the name comes in 
like this:  Michelle=C2=A0Tarby 

I've tried both using   and   and both give the same result.  
Is it a Thunderbird issue, or is my hCard formatting off? 

I appreciate your patience and assistance!

>Michelle,
>They are part of the transformation done by x2v and are part of the vcard
>spec. If you run one of the sample cards through you will see they are there
>as well
>
>Thanks,
>Steve 

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Nov 17 11:39:07 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Nov 17 11:39:17 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160809r5ba08783g104901c2913d428b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611171139i2eb5a7b7v411b1a045768c031@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/17/06, Eric Skiff  wrote:
> I think that the work you're doing right now on hItem could be some of
> the most important microformat work yet. I'm sure you've already made
> the connection I just came to, but here's why I'm excited.

I'm not sure if I'm that excited :-) but I definitely think there's a
gap that can be filled (i.e. that hReview/hListing identify people
directly but only things indirectly). It's possible, but this is very
speculative, that this could simplify the path for creating new
microformats like hWine.

> This could also make hReview much more powerful in my opinion,
> assuming hItem is embeddable in the same way hCard is. Using our wine
> example from before, you could just link to an hItem from the review.

There's an analogous problem here with linking hCards (such as Ryan
King's on the microformats blog) to a "better" hCard (Ryan King's
official one).

> I'd definitely advocate for hItem including information about its
> creator, and optionally its producer and vendor. These of course could
> be hCard entries or links, and I think it would give us a flexible way
> to include much of the information that felt very "wine" specific such
> as Vintage (aka, producer and production date). It seems as though an
> hItem's production and creation could also be considered events, so
> reusing hEvent here seems to make a lot of sense.
>
> What do you think? Is this more complicated than it needs to be, or is
> the reuse of other microformats here a good thing?

Let's go through the examples and see what's frequently used, somewhat
used and rarely or sporadically used. That will point the right
direction I think. And, as per usual, I encourage everyone to
contribute to the examples because that's one of the hardest and least
thanked parts.

> Also, is this ground already being covered by hListing (which seems to
> be looking to include some of this info), or would you simply have
> hListings of events (hEvent),  people (hCard), and  things (hItem)?

The latter, but we're data mining hListing/hReview to maximize reuse.

>
> Thanks
> -Eric

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From james at scrugy.com  Fri Nov 17 12:45:39 2006
From: james at scrugy.com (James Jory)
Date: Fri Nov 17 12:45:42 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>
	
Message-ID: <455E1F73.5080706@scrugy.com>

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In message <005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>, James Jory
>  writes
>   
>> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>     
>>> It would be possible to mark up grape varieties, yeast and,
>>> indeed, Botritis, using the 'Species' microformat. Say:
>>>       
>> Yes, I've looked at "species" for this purpose and it certainly works
>> for parts of the wine industry.
>>     
> Thank you - but which parts of the wine industry uses grapes and yeast
> which are (or were) not living things?
>   
What I was getting at was that the typical wine consumer and the content 
providers catering to wine consumers are less interested in the 
scientific classification of a particular grape or yeast and more 
interested in where to buy wine, who made it, how much it costs, recent 
reviews, and so on. On the other hand, a wine making supply site would 
probably be very interested in "species".


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 13:24:07 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 13:25:40 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <3d6832e50611171129t9637889m7a0d7c3f2d35c7b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611140527u3f0e9cbk24f14a815dfbaeec@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611160822y316046f1h53e199acc547410e@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611160836h7b4848c9lde1fb7bd2311960@mail.gmail.com>
	<4684A244-3AC5-4F0A-85A0-28589A5EE19C@abscond.org>
	
	<63A24085-215D-4421-B713-CA37BC6BF50A@abscond.org>
	<21e523c20611161514y84c665q93a56d44766a7aba@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<3d6832e50611170751q2ffca5adiaa6b9f697e050603@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<3d6832e50611171129t9637889m7a0d7c3f2d35c7b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message <3d6832e50611171129t9637889m7a0d7c3f2d35c7b2@mail.gmail.com>,
Eric Skiff  writes

>To look at a real world example, FreshDirect sells both single items
>and bulk cases.
>
>They're each treated as a single row in their product database,
>without worrying about nesting 12 individual cans of soup in the
>"case"

And do they tell you the volume of soup in one can, or 12-cans-worth?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 13:26:06 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 13:30:27 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <455E1F73.5080706@scrugy.com>
References: 
	<005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>
	 <455E1F73.5080706@scrugy.com>
Message-ID: 

In message <455E1F73.5080706@scrugy.com>, James Jory 
writes

>>> Yes, I've looked at "species" for this purpose and it certainly
>>>works
>>> for parts of the wine industry.
>>>
>> Thank you - but which parts of the wine industry uses grapes and
>>yeast
>> which are (or were) not living things?
>>
>What I was getting at was that the typical wine consumer and the
>content providers catering to wine consumers are less interested in the
>scientific classification of a particular grape or yeast and more
>interested in where to buy wine, who made it, how much it costs, recent
>reviews, and so on.

You think wine buyers aren't interested in the variety of grape?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From james at scrugy.com  Fri Nov 17 14:09:34 2006
From: james at scrugy.com (James Jory)
Date: Fri Nov 17 14:09:38 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>	
	<455E1F73.5080706@scrugy.com>
	
Message-ID: <455E331E.2010807@scrugy.com>

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In message <455E1F73.5080706@scrugy.com>, James Jory 
> writes
>
>   
>>>> Yes, I've looked at "species" for this purpose and it certainly
>>>> works
>>>> for parts of the wine industry.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> Thank you - but which parts of the wine industry uses grapes and
>>> yeast
>>> which are (or were) not living things?
>>>
>>>       
>> What I was getting at was that the typical wine consumer and the
>> content providers catering to wine consumers are less interested in the
>> scientific classification of a particular grape or yeast and more
>> interested in where to buy wine, who made it, how much it costs, recent
>> reviews, and so on.
>>     
>
> You think wine buyers aren't interested in the variety of grape?
>   
I believe I said scientific classification. Of course wine buyers are 
interested in the grape variety. What they're not interested in is the 
full biological taxonomy of the grape variety which is what you 
initially suggested. They're buying wine and not retaking high school 
biology.




From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Fri Nov 17 14:44:50 2006
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Fri Nov 17 14:45:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Contextual link information using microformats
In-Reply-To: 
References: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>
	<21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <433A2621-1DCC-4F02-B1A5-DC5CB61E873C@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 17 Nov 2006, at 18:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> hreflang="en"
>> type="application/pdf"
> I wonder how widely used those two are, in real life?

I'd suggest that hreflang is close to minimal, not least because  
there's an assumed (though probably not specified) implication that  
link targets are going to be in the same language as the source page.  
I imagine if cross-language document linking were more commonplace  
there would be more interest and knowledge in @hreflang.

@type is increasingly used and useful though. Auto-discovery  
mechanisms use type="application/rss+xml" and "application/atom+xml"  
to recognise XML feeds.

Ben
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 15:58:50 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 16:01:11 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Contextual link information using microformats
In-Reply-To: <433A2621-1DCC-4F02-B1A5-DC5CB61E873C@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>
	<21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<433A2621-1DCC-4F02-B1A5-DC5CB61E873C@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: 

In message <433A2621-1DCC-4F02-B1A5-DC5CB61E873C@ben-ward.co.uk>, Ben
Ward  writes

>>> type="application/pdf"

>> I wonder how widely used those

>> are, in real life?

>@type is increasingly used and useful though. Auto-discovery
>mechanisms use type="application/rss+xml" and "application/atom+xml"
>to recognise XML feeds.

Thank you; I meant the pdf type, specifically.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Nov 17 16:04:29 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Nov 17 16:04:33 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Contextual link information using microformats
In-Reply-To: 
References: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>
	<21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <21e523c20611171604x36f9fd58o7ba00b1c9ff84b97@mail.gmail.com>

id="link" was just left over from the original example.

On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In message
> <21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>, David
> Janes  writes
>
> >
> >id="link"
>
> Why ID? Why not class?
>
> >hreflang="en"
> >type="application/pdf"
>
> I wonder how widely used those two are, in real life?
>
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 16:06:43 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 16:07:52 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: wine
In-Reply-To: <455E331E.2010807@scrugy.com>
References: 
	<005801c70a5a$1fbb6e20$1601a8c0@Impulse>
	 <455E1F73.5080706@scrugy.com>
	 <455E331E.2010807@scrugy.com>
Message-ID: 

In message <455E331E.2010807@scrugy.com>, James Jory 
writes

>>> What I was getting at was that the typical wine consumer and the
>>> content providers catering to wine consumers are less interested in the
>>> scientific classification of a particular grape or yeast and more
>>> interested in where to buy wine, who made it, how much it costs, recent
>>> reviews, and so on.

>> You think wine buyers aren't interested in the variety of grape?
>>
>I believe I said scientific classification. Of course wine buyers are
>interested in the grape variety.

The grape variety *is* a scientific classification.

> What they're not interested in is the full biological taxonomy of the
>grape variety which is what you initially suggested.

I did *not* suggest a full biological taxonomy; I suggested a
binominal-variety combination.

And I did, indeed; /suggest/, it; by way of an example; hence my use of
the word "say". It could just as easily be a simple:

        Pinot noir

Either way; it certainly makes more sense to use the same term as
eventually used in "species", than, say, class="grape".

>They're buying wine and not retaking high school biology.

Oh, really?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Nov 17 16:09:44 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Nov 17 16:09:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Contextual link information using microformats
In-Reply-To: <433A2621-1DCC-4F02-B1A5-DC5CB61E873C@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <66AE2925B3AFC64AA2050E945EE6C72001FACB3C@EPPING-EVS1.open.ac.uk>
	<21e523c20611170612o655e9baftc190e7a7e0079fde@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<433A2621-1DCC-4F02-B1A5-DC5CB61E873C@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611171609n323ee91fyc425680edba1a52e@mail.gmail.com>

In Canada, and I suspect many other places in the world, links to
documents and pages in other languages is relatively common.

One can also image that links to English language pages and documents
from non-English language pages is common, due to the preponderance of
English language documents on the web.

Regards, etc...

On 11/17/06, Ben Ward  wrote:
> On 17 Nov 2006, at 18:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> >> hreflang="en"
> >> type="application/pdf"
> > I wonder how widely used those two are, in real life?
>
> I'd suggest that hreflang is close to minimal, not least because
> there's an assumed (though probably not specified) implication that
> link targets are going to be in the same language as the source page.
> I imagine if cross-language document linking were more commonplace
> there would be more interest and knowledge in @hreflang.
>
> @type is increasingly used and useful though. Auto-discovery
> mechanisms use type="application/rss+xml" and "application/atom+xml"
> to recognise XML feeds.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From aaron at easy-designs.net  Fri Nov 17 16:37:57 2006
From: aaron at easy-designs.net (Aaron Gustafson)
Date: Fri Nov 17 16:38:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
Message-ID: <001a01c70aa9$cb684eb0$a401a8c0@LittleGeek>

David Janes wrote:
> I'm not sure if I'm that excited :-) but I definitely think there's a
> gap that can be filled (i.e. that hReview/hListing identify people
> directly but only things indirectly). It's possible, but this is very
> speculative, that this could simplify the path for creating new
> microformats like hWine.

I am just joining the discussion list, so forgive me if what I rehash older discussions. Craig Cook and I had been working on hProduct somewhat in isolation and thought we should post the information we've created to get our ideas and thoughts out there. I see some sililarities with what is up on hItem, though I agree hItem may be a little too broad (see the earlier 'what is an item?' comments).

>> I'd definitely advocate for hItem including information about its
>> creator, and optionally its producer and vendor. These of course could
>> be hCard entries or links, and I think it would give us a flexible way
>> to include much of the information that felt very "wine" specific such
>> as Vintage (aka, producer and production date). It seems as though an
>> hItem's production and creation could also be considered events, so
>> reusing hEvent here seems to make a lot of sense.
>>
>> What do you think? Is this more complicated than it needs to be, or is
>> the reuse of other microformats here a good thing?
>
> Let's go through the examples and see what's frequently used, somewhat
> used and rarely or sporadically used. That will point the right
> direction I think. And, as per usual, I encourage everyone to
> contribute to the examples because that's one of the hardest and least
> thanked parts.

Hmm, I think we really need to boil this down to its essence. With products, unless you want to go the route niche microformats like hWine or hBook, it makes sense to stick to a few key, repeatable fields, for example:
* name
* description
* image
* msrp
* uri
* brand

The rest could be handled by a generic property value construct which we've called 'p-v' (and may honestly have usefulness outside the hProduct/hItem concept).

>> Also, is this ground already being covered by hListing (which seems to
>> be looking to include some of this info), or would you simply have
>> hListings of events (hEvent),  people (hCard), and  things (hItem)?
>
>The latter, but we're data mining hListing/hReview to maximize reuse.

IMHO, there are a few places I think hListing (and hReview for that matter) are reaching a bit beyond what should be their scope. This is where I think hProduct/hItem fits in. In other words, you could essentially script the linking of a product for sale in an hListing with a review of that product in hReview.

I'd be interested in feedback on what Craig and I have posted so far and perhaps we can find a way to merge hItem and hProduct and suggest some augmentations to hListing and hReview to make some space for hProduct/hItem.

We will be posting some of our examples shortly.

Cheers,

Aaron

----
Aaron Gustafson
Sr. Web Designer/Developer
Easy! Designs, LLC
203-215-8829 O
203-230-0773 F
aaron@easy-designs.net
----
Easy! Designs, LLC
83 Treadwell St
Hamden, CT 06517
http://www.easy-designs.net
http://www.easy-reader.net


From korbyp at microsoft.com  Fri Nov 17 18:20:07 2006
From: korbyp at microsoft.com (Korby Parnell)
Date: Fri Nov 17 18:20:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: QnA microformat(s)
Message-ID: <27D1A7C18F335644A9A60C20D97C20684235D929@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

Hi--

I can't seem to find any information about "question and answer" microformats on microformats.org. Insofar as I'm new to this list, has there been any backchannel discussion about distributed Q&A systems and a microformat or microformats to support them?

Many Thanks,
Korby Parnell
Product Manager
Microsoft.com Communities Technologies Team
http://blogs.msdn.com/korbyp


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 23:16:16 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 23:17:45 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and citation
Message-ID: <6IOk7nwANrXFFwBq@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


hReview can use rel="license" to show that the license, not the page
itself, is available under a certain license.

Why not do the page for citations, so that I can cite, say, a Wordsworth
poem, and indicate that the poem, but not my page, is public domain?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 17 23:25:10 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 17 23:26:30 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
Message-ID: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that it
can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license, as
well as for those that are? For instance:

        This page is 

                Free Our Data:  
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 23:46:45 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Fri Nov 17 23:46:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
In-Reply-To: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611172346r58eeb308x1bfebc145654fd95@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Andy,

On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that it
> can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license, as
> well as for those that are? For instance:
>
>         This page is          href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
>         2006 and may not be reproduced.

I think that to indicate that something is NOT available under a
certain license you'd really need something like a "norel" attribute.
As in...

...

Or... you'd need a negative of the "license" token... maybe
"nolicense" to use with the "rel" attribute... as in...

...


See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 23:57:21 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Fri Nov 17 23:57:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611172346r58eeb308x1bfebc145654fd95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<84ce626f0611172346r58eeb308x1bfebc145654fd95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611172357k14838640o61cd6a88c890d7ea@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think that makes any sense. You should make positive
assertions about data, not negative ones... and why bother with a
"not-a-license" schema? There's far too many negatives... as in
licenses that it wouldn't be.... I think we ought only deal with what
things *are* and not what they *aren't*.

Chris

On 11/17/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux  wrote:
> Hello Andy,
>
> On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> >
> > I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that it
> > can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license, as
> > well as for those that are? For instance:
> >
> >         This page is  >         href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
> >         2006 and may not be reproduced.
>
> I think that to indicate that something is NOT available under a
> certain license you'd really need something like a "norel" attribute.
> As in...
>
> ...
>
> Or... you'd need a negative of the "license" token... maybe
> "nolicense" to use with the "rel" attribute... as in...
>
> ...
>
>
> See ya
>
> --
>     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
>
>     charles @ reptile.ca
>     supercanadian @ gmail.com
>
>     developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 00:06:14 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Sat Nov 18 00:06:21 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611172357k14838640o61cd6a88c890d7ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<84ce626f0611172346r58eeb308x1bfebc145654fd95@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611172357k14838640o61cd6a88c890d7ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611180006q274c35a2y17aa10a30b43ca49@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

On 11/17/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> I don't think that makes any sense. You should make positive
> assertions about data, not negative ones...

Why?

Andy is in fact trying to make a negative assertion, of the "license" token.

> and why bother with a
> "not-a-license" schema? There's far too many negatives... as in
> licenses that it wouldn't be....

Andy might want to name one (or a few) specific licenses that it is not.

> I think we ought only deal with what things *are* and not what they *aren't*.

That's fine, but they you need to put the "negative" into the token...
as in "nolicense" or something like that.


See ya

>
> Chris
>
> On 11/17/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux  wrote:
> > Hello Andy,
> >
> > On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that it
> > > can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license, as
> > > well as for those that are? For instance:
> > >
> > >         This page is  > >         href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
> > >         2006 and may not be reproduced.
> >
> > I think that to indicate that something is NOT available under a
> > certain license you'd really need something like a "norel" attribute.
> > As in...
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Or... you'd need a negative of the "license" token... maybe
> > "nolicense" to use with the "rel" attribute... as in...
> >
> > ...
> >
> >
> > See ya


-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
From ml at creativecommons.org  Sat Nov 18 00:55:03 2006
From: ml at creativecommons.org (Mike Linksvayer)
Date: Sat Nov 18 00:55:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and citation
In-Reply-To: <6IOk7nwANrXFFwBq@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <6IOk7nwANrXFFwBq@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1163840103.5880.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2006-11-18 at 07:16 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> hReview can use rel="license" to show that the license, not the page
> itself, is available under a certain license.

You meant "... to show that the contents of the hReview itself is
licensed, not the page ..."

> Why not do the page for citations, so that I can cite, say, a Wordsworth
> poem, and indicate that the poem, but not my page, is public domain?

If you want to be symmetric with
http://microformats.org/wiki/hReview#Field_details rel="license" in a
citation would be saying that the contents of the citation is licensed,
not the cited work.




On Sat, 2006-11-18 at 07:25 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that
> it
> can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license,
> as
> well as for those that are? For instance:
> 
>         This page is          href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
>         2006 and may not be reproduced.
> 
I'm not sure what the point of this would be as default copyright is ...
the default, but I also don't know why rel="license" couldn't be used to
refer to a restrictive license statement, including one that says no
rights are granted.



-- 
  http://wiki.creativecommons.org/User:Mike_Linksvayer

From fberriman at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 01:17:17 2006
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Sat Nov 18 01:17:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: QnA microformat(s)
In-Reply-To: <27D1A7C18F335644A9A60C20D97C20684235D929@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
References: <27D1A7C18F335644A9A60C20D97C20684235D929@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: 

On 11/18/06, Korby Parnell  wrote:
> Hi--
>
> I can't seem to find any information about "question and answer" microformats on microformats.org. Insofar as I'm new to this list, has there been any backchannel discussion about distributed Q&A systems and a microformat or microformats to support them?

Hi Korby,

I've not come across a "Q&A" specific format being mentioned before -
so this is probably something new :)

You could start gathering a few examples of Q&A systems out there (to
understand what's already being done) and then take a look at how one
might go about marking these with existing formats (if at all - can't
simple Question/Answers be marked with definition lists alone?).

F

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 01:20:16 2006
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Sat Nov 18 01:20:18 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: QnA microformat(s)
In-Reply-To: <27D1A7C18F335644A9A60C20D97C20684235D929@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
References: <27D1A7C18F335644A9A60C20D97C20684235D929@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0611180120u18c1bf1bgd8e97e5dd125b47c@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Korby,

On 11/17/06, Korby Parnell  wrote:
> Hi--
>
> I can't seem to find any information about "question and answer" microformats on microformats.org. Insofar as I'm new to this list, has there been any backchannel discussion about distributed Q&A systems and a microformat or microformats to support them?
>

When you say "Q&A"... do you mean like a FAQ?... or a "form" with
questions where someone has to fill in the answers.


See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 18 02:12:53 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 18 02:12:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611180006q274c35a2y17aa10a30b43ca49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<84ce626f0611172346r58eeb308x1bfebc145654fd95@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611172357k14838640o61cd6a88c890d7ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0611180006q274c35a2y17aa10a30b43ca49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611180212s5065f001r792eb52074de6dad@mail.gmail.com>

The _link_ itself isn't a negative assertion; the negative assertion
is in the rights conferered on others by the license that is linked
to. "Copyright Me, All Rights Reserved" is a good a legal license a
"Free For All, Help Yourself".

The URI could be to the copyright office.

Regards, etc...
David

On 11/18/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On 11/17/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> > I don't think that makes any sense. You should make positive
> > assertions about data, not negative ones...
>
> Why?
>
> Andy is in fact trying to make a negative assertion, of the "license" token.
>
> > and why bother with a
> > "not-a-license" schema? There's far too many negatives... as in
> > licenses that it wouldn't be....
>
> Andy might want to name one (or a few) specific licenses that it is not.
>
> > I think we ought only deal with what things *are* and not what they *aren't*.
>
> That's fine, but they you need to put the "negative" into the token...
> as in "nolicense" or something like that.
>
>
> See ya
>
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 11/17/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux  wrote:
> > > Hello Andy,
> > >
> > > On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that it
> > > > can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license, as
> > > > well as for those that are? For instance:
> > > >
> > > >         This page is  > > >         href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
> > > >         2006 and may not be reproduced.
> > >
> > > I think that to indicate that something is NOT available under a
> > > certain license you'd really need something like a "norel" attribute.
> > > As in...
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Or... you'd need a negative of the "license" token... maybe
> > > "nolicense" to use with the "rel" attribute... as in...
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > See ya
>
>
> --
>     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
>
>     charles @ reptile.ca
>     supercanadian @ gmail.com
>
>     developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From vantguarde at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 02:33:00 2006
From: vantguarde at gmail.com (kota the vantguarde)
Date: Sat Nov 18 02:33:03 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
In-Reply-To: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: 

Hello,

On 11/18/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that it
> can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license, as
> well as for those that are? For instance:
>
>        This page is         href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
>        2006 and may not be reproduced.

If it's not published under a certain licence but copyrighted (like in
this case), you should use rel="copyright" instead of rel-licence.

The value "copyright" is a predefined linktype in HTML,
(http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#type-links)
and says that "Refers to a copyright statement for the current document."
So I think using rel-copyright would perfectly fit in.

-- 
vant m. yak / vantguarde@gmail.com
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 18 02:43:08 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 18 02:43:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
In-Reply-To: 
References: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
Message-ID: <21e523c20611180243k1a49948ap956135c26c278a0@mail.gmail.com>

Of course. I retract my last message. Orthogonal issues.

Regards, etc...

On 11/18/06, kota the vantguarde  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On 11/18/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> >
> > I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that it
> > can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license, as
> > well as for those that are? For instance:
> >
> >        This page is  >        href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
> >        2006 and may not be reproduced.
>
> If it's not published under a certain licence but copyrighted (like in
> this case), you should use rel="copyright" instead of rel-licence.
>
> The value "copyright" is a predefined linktype in HTML,
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#type-links)
> and says that "Refers to a copyright statement for the current document."
> So I think using rel-copyright would perfectly fit in.
>
> --
> vant m. yak / vantguarde@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 18 05:52:53 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 18 05:52:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Clarification on hListing
Message-ID: <21e523c20611180552t47191ac3j973ddc752523ba78@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking at the schema for hListing [1] and I have a question: is
the item explicitly marked as class="item"? It's not clear from the
markup.

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Schema

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 07:42:30 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Sat Nov 18 07:42:34 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Clarification on hListing
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611180552t47191ac3j973ddc752523ba78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611180552t47191ac3j973ddc752523ba78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780611180742j3bf898d8oe62402edd847c568@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/18/06, David Janes  wrote:
> I'm looking at the schema for hListing [1] and I have a question: is
> the item explicitly marked as class="item"? It's not clear from the
> markup.

Yes, it is abit confusing and contracitory.

In the schema it says "Optional", but then in the "Item Metadata" it
says: "This required field MUST have at a minimum..."

The edgio.com uses hListing but their mark-up doesn't give any hints.
http://www.edgeio.com/item/1807880-4266-Arsenal-St-Louis-MO-House-For-Rent-saint%20louis-missouri-usa-north%20america

Dealtagger is another site:
http://www.dealtagger.com/group/nikon_d50/

They do use the class="item", but also have an FN at the same level
(it should be nested), and they do not uses the REQUIRED description.

"listing action" is another one that confuses me, is that two words,
one word "listing-action" or just a tag with some of the recommended
values... it is required, but i don't see it in action on edgeio.com
or Dealtagger

I would bring-up these issues on the feedback page
(http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-feedback) or create an issues
page on the wiki (http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-issues)

-brian



-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 18 09:02:55 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 18 09:03:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Clarification on hListing
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611180742j3bf898d8oe62402edd847c568@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611180552t47191ac3j973ddc752523ba78@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780611180742j3bf898d8oe62402edd847c568@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611180902g1714b8e5ka5fc8c3fd4c9bba2@mail.gmail.com>

I've opened these two issues (one in your name) here [1]

Regards, etc...

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-feedback#Schema_Issues

On 11/18/06, Brian Suda  wrote:
> On 11/18/06, David Janes  wrote:
> > I'm looking at the schema for hListing [1] and I have a question: is
> > the item explicitly marked as class="item"? It's not clear from the
> > markup.
>
> Yes, it is abit confusing and contracitory.
>
> In the schema it says "Optional", but then in the "Item Metadata" it
> says: "This required field MUST have at a minimum..."
>
> The edgio.com uses hListing but their mark-up doesn't give any hints.
> http://www.edgeio.com/item/1807880-4266-Arsenal-St-Louis-MO-House-For-Rent-saint%20louis-missouri-usa-north%20america
>
> Dealtagger is another site:
> http://www.dealtagger.com/group/nikon_d50/
>
> They do use the class="item", but also have an FN at the same level
> (it should be nested), and they do not uses the REQUIRED description.
>
> "listing action" is another one that confuses me, is that two words,
> one word "listing-action" or just a tag with some of the recommended
> values... it is required, but i don't see it in action on edgeio.com
> or Dealtagger
>
> I would bring-up these issues on the feedback page
> (http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-feedback) or create an issues
> page on the wiki (http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-issues)
>
> -brian
>
>
>
> --
> brian suda
> http://suda.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 18 09:17:41 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 18 09:17:47 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <001a01c70aa9$cb684eb0$a401a8c0@LittleGeek>
References: <001a01c70aa9$cb684eb0$a401a8c0@LittleGeek>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611180917i4899c080oa52036341b06761@mail.gmail.com>

I would suggest there's a serious issue with what you've produced so
far, insofar as you have seemed to come up with the microformat first
rather than doing analysis of what's currently in use on the web and
also what's currently being done in other microformats.

For example, hListing and hReview already imply a design pattern for
how items or products could be marked up [1]. If I understand what
you've put on the wiki, your intention is that these existing
microformats would have to be back-changed to conform to your proposed
microformat. Other attributes, such as "name", "uri", "image" ... seem
to have little relation to similar attributes already defined in other
microformats [2]. Without having an -examples and -formats page and
then -brainstorming based on that, it's difficult for me to understand
why you are proposing a new vocabulary.

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/item-formats#Existing_Microformats
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes

On 11/17/06, Aaron Gustafson  wrote:
> David Janes wrote:
> > I'm not sure if I'm that excited :-) but I definitely think there's a
> > gap that can be filled (i.e. that hReview/hListing identify people
> > directly but only things indirectly). It's possible, but this is very
> > speculative, that this could simplify the path for creating new
> > microformats like hWine.
>
> I am just joining the discussion list, so forgive me if what I rehash older discussions. Craig Cook and I had been working on hProduct somewhat in isolation and thought we should post the information we've created to get our ideas and thoughts out there. I see some sililarities with what is up on hItem, though I agree hItem may be a little too broad (see the earlier 'what is an item?' comments).
>
> >> I'd definitely advocate for hItem including information about its
> >> creator, and optionally its producer and vendor. These of course could
> >> be hCard entries or links, and I think it would give us a flexible way
> >> to include much of the information that felt very "wine" specific such
> >> as Vintage (aka, producer and production date). It seems as though an
> >> hItem's production and creation could also be considered events, so
> >> reusing hEvent here seems to make a lot of sense.
> >>
> >> What do you think? Is this more complicated than it needs to be, or is
> >> the reuse of other microformats here a good thing?
> >
> > Let's go through the examples and see what's frequently used, somewhat
> > used and rarely or sporadically used. That will point the right
> > direction I think. And, as per usual, I encourage everyone to
> > contribute to the examples because that's one of the hardest and least
> > thanked parts.
>
> Hmm, I think we really need to boil this down to its essence. With products, unless you want to go the route niche microformats like hWine or hBook, it makes sense to stick to a few key, repeatable fields, for example:
> * name
> * description
> * image
> * msrp
> * uri
> * brand
>
> The rest could be handled by a generic property value construct which we've called 'p-v' (and may honestly have usefulness outside the hProduct/hItem concept).
>
> >> Also, is this ground already being covered by hListing (which seems to
> >> be looking to include some of this info), or would you simply have
> >> hListings of events (hEvent),  people (hCard), and  things (hItem)?
> >
> >The latter, but we're data mining hListing/hReview to maximize reuse.
>
> IMHO, there are a few places I think hListing (and hReview for that matter) are reaching a bit beyond what should be their scope. This is where I think hProduct/hItem fits in. In other words, you could essentially script the linking of a product for sale in an hListing with a review of that product in hReview.
>
> I'd be interested in feedback on what Craig and I have posted so far and perhaps we can find a way to merge hItem and hProduct and suggest some augmentations to hListing and hReview to make some space for hProduct/hItem.
>
> We will be posting some of our examples shortly.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Aaron
>
> ----
> Aaron Gustafson
> Sr. Web Designer/Developer
> Easy! Designs, LLC
> 203-215-8829 O
> 203-230-0773 F
> aaron@easy-designs.net
> ----
> Easy! Designs, LLC
> 83 Treadwell St
> Hamden, CT 06517
> http://www.easy-designs.net
> http://www.easy-reader.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 18 10:38:22 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 18 10:40:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and citation
In-Reply-To: <1163840103.5880.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6IOk7nwANrXFFwBq@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<1163840103.5880.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

In message <1163840103.5880.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Mike
Linksvayer  writes

>On Sat, 2006-11-18 at 07:16 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> hReview can use rel="license" to show that the license, not the page
>> itself, is available under a certain license.
>
>You meant "... to show that the contents of the hReview itself is
>licensed, not the page ..."

Indeed. Thank you.

>> Why not do the page for citations, so that I can cite, say, a Wordsworth
>> poem, and indicate that the poem, but not my page, is public domain?

I also meant "why not do the /same/ for citations...

Goodness knows what happened to my typing, this morning...

>If you want to be symmetric with
>http://microformats.org/wiki/hReview#Field_details rel="license" in a
>citation would be saying that the contents of the citation is licensed,
>not the cited work.

Perhaps,; but that's unlikely to be the case - often, if not usually, a
citation is "fair use", regardless of the copyright or license state of
the source.

>On Sat, 2006-11-18 at 07:25 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> I'm starting to look at using rel="license". Am I right in thing that
>> it
>> can be used to indicate that a page is NOT available under a license,
>> as
>> well as for those that are? For instance:
>>
>>         This page is >         href="http://www.example.com/copyright>copyright Example Ltd.
>>         2006 and may not be reproduced.
>>
>I'm not sure what the point of this would be as default copyright is
>... the default

Yes, but /whose/ copyright?

Consider, on one site:

         This page is 

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 18 10:39:14 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 18 10:40:43 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="license" and copyright
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0611180006q274c35a2y17aa10a30b43ca49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9o7ljaxWVrXFFwC2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<84ce626f0611172346r58eeb308x1bfebc145654fd95@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611172357k14838640o61cd6a88c890d7ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0611180006q274c35a2y17aa10a30b43ca49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

In message
<84ce626f0611180006q274c35a2y17aa10a30b43ca49@mail.gmail.com>, Charles
Iliya Krempeaux  writes

>> and why bother with a
>> "not-a-license" schema? There's far too many negatives... as in
>> licenses that it wouldn't be....
>
>Andy might want to name one (or a few) specific licenses that it is
>not.

No, thanks.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 18 13:36:06 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 18 13:37:33 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] PROPOSAL: keep it simple; make it extensible?
Message-ID: 


Rather than trying to devise a microformat (hThing or hItem) that can
describe any thing (or at least any physical thing), with all the
possible or probable properties that might entail: would it perhaps be
better to define a re-usable wrapper, and say that any microformat(s) or
properties inside that wrapper apply to that thing?

Say:

        
                [hReview]
                [other uFs]
        

Then apply secondary classes to the hItem as microformats are developed
in future, say:

        
                [hReview]
                [other uFs]
        


We could then use:

        

                
                        [n]
                

        

or

        
                
                        [property-type]
                        [n]
                
        

for various properties or property-types ("abv", say) as and when
they're required:

        

                [hReview]

                
                        7.8
                

        

or

        

                [hReview]

                
                        abv
                        7.8
                

        


Or, where no "secondary class" exists, parsers would simply infer that
the properties apply to the item:

        

                [hReview]

                
                        abv
                        7.8
                

        

or could extract the nature of the item from a tag:

        

                 News
>
>                 [hReview]
>
>                 
>                         abv
>                         7.8
>                 
>
>         
>
> or class:
>
>         
>
>                 Wine News
>
>                 [hReview]
>
>                 
>                         abv
>                         7.8
>                 
>
>         
>
>
> Such properties could then be proposed and agreed more speedily then
> entire uFs.
>
>
> Items could be nested, with any properties in the inner item applying to
> that, and not the outer item(s).
>
>
> Alternative names could be "hThing" or "hObject".
>
>
> This post contains several "blue sky" proposals, which can be considered
> separately, if not as a whole.
>
>
> (Note: "wine" and "abv" are used for illustration only, and not to imply
> any endorsement or otherwise to the current "wine" proposal)
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 18 13:54:50 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 18 13:54:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] PROPOSAL: keep it simple; make it extensible?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <21e523c20611181354n580c4ed1r14b4fa4724dc35aa@mail.gmail.com>

My current plan is (and has been) to keep it as simple as possible and
_not_ to try to solve the "everything" problem. In particular, my
current thinking is here [1] which basically says do the same thing
with "item" from hReview/hListing as was done to "adr" and "geo" from
hCard, add a missing field or two ("description" in particular) and
then expect that future microformats (hWine) will composite on top of
that.

The property-name/property-value thing I think is totally out of scope
for _I_ want to do! I understand the potential value of that and it's
probably worth an entirely exporatory series of wikipage of it's own
(and there's lots of examples that can be drawn upon from out on the
net, plus the work that's been done on microformats-rest). If you
think it's worth tackling, I'll certainly contribute examples from
what I've seen on the net.

I think that you've inverted the parent-child relationship between
(say) a review and a item; that is, it is more natural to expect the
item to be a child/attribute of the review rather than the other way
around.

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/item-brainstorming#DavidJanes

On 11/18/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> Rather than trying to devise a microformat (hThing or hItem) that can
> describe any thing (or at least any physical thing), with all the
> possible or probable properties that might entail: would it perhaps be
> better to define a re-usable wrapper, and say that any microformat(s) or
> properties inside that wrapper apply to that thing?
>
> Say:
>
>         
>                 [hReview]
>                 [other uFs]
>         
>
> Then apply secondary classes to the hItem as microformats are developed
> in future, say:
>
>         
>                 [hReview]
>                 [other uFs]
>         
>
>
> We could then use:
>
>         
>
>                 
>                         [n]
>                 
>
>         
>
> or
>
>         
>                 
>                         [property-type]
>                         [n]
>                 
>         
>
> for various properties or property-types ("abv", say) as and when
> they're required:
>
>         
>
>                 [hReview]
>
>                 
>                         7.8
>                 
>
>         
>
> or
>
>         
>
>                 [hReview]
>
>                 
>                         abv
>                         7.8
>                 
>
>         
>
>
> Or, where no "secondary class" exists, parsers would simply infer that
> the properties apply to the item:
>
>         
>
>                 [hReview]
>
>                 
>                         abv
>                         7.8
>                 
>
>         
>
> or could extract the nature of the item from a tag:
>
>         
>
>                  News
>
>                 [hReview]
>
>                 
>                         abv
>                         7.8
>                 
>
>         
>
> or class:
>
>         
>
>                 Wine News
>
>                 [hReview]
>
>                 
>                         abv
>                         7.8
>                 
>
>         
>
>
> Such properties could then be proposed and agreed more speedily then
> entire uFs.
>
>
> Items could be nested, with any properties in the inner item applying to
> that, and not the outer item(s).
>
>
> Alternative names could be "hThing" or "hObject".
>
>
> This post contains several "blue sky" proposals, which can be considered
> separately, if not as a whole.
>
>
> (Note: "wine" and "abv" are used for illustration only, and not to imply
> any endorsement or otherwise to the current "wine" proposal)
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 18 14:02:13 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 18 14:02:16 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] PROPOSAL: keep it simple; make it extensible?
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611181353y475d0133se06d01f8524ff95b@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<1bc4603e0611181353y475d0133se06d01f8524ff95b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611181402o1348ec93n778cf1c9a9db927c@mail.gmail.com>

My primary goal is to document an existing behavior, that items are
referred to and used in microformats today. If you'll care to look at
the examples found so far and also the usage in existing microformats,
you'll see that this is clearly an _existing behaviour_, insofar as
hListing and hReview are used at all.

A nice benefit is providing a vocabulary for _new_ microformats to
refer to items in a consistent manner with _existing_ microformats.
You'll note that I started this discussion talking about that we may
just be looking at a design pattern, though as mentioned in my
previous letter I think this is something on par with "adr" and "geo",
that is, an extraction from something that is already happening.

Regards, etc...

On 11/18/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> The fact that this effort seems vague and non-specific to begin with
> seems to preclude it from ever gaining adoption; additionally, finding
> existing behavior would be a challenge, not to mention the limited
> semantic usefulness of knowing that something is a "thing" or "item".
>
> What *specific* problem, captured in the wild, is this work looking to solve?
>
> Chris
>
-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 14:10:56 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sat Nov 18 14:11:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] PROPOSAL: keep it simple; make it extensible?
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611181402o1348ec93n778cf1c9a9db927c@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<1bc4603e0611181353y475d0133se06d01f8524ff95b@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611181402o1348ec93n778cf1c9a9db927c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611181410q6d22425w9eb4d73a4676f533@mail.gmail.com>

Fair enough. Awhile back I talked to Tantek about "micro-patterns" as
opposed to data-bearing formats.

This seems more a discussion of design patterns and templates than of
formats, but I'll give the examples a look over.

Chris

On 11/18/06, David Janes  wrote:
> My primary goal is to document an existing behavior, that items are
> referred to and used in microformats today. If you'll care to look at
> the examples found so far and also the usage in existing microformats,
> you'll see that this is clearly an _existing behaviour_, insofar as
> hListing and hReview are used at all.
>
> A nice benefit is providing a vocabulary for _new_ microformats to
> refer to items in a consistent manner with _existing_ microformats.
> You'll note that I started this discussion talking about that we may
> just be looking at a design pattern, though as mentioned in my
> previous letter I think this is something on par with "adr" and "geo",
> that is, an extraction from something that is already happening.
>
> Regards, etc...
>
> On 11/18/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> > The fact that this effort seems vague and non-specific to begin with
> > seems to preclude it from ever gaining adoption; additionally, finding
> > existing behavior would be a challenge, not to mention the limited
> > semantic usefulness of knowing that something is a "thing" or "item".
> >
> > What *specific* problem, captured in the wild, is this work looking to
> solve?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> --
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://www.onamine.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 17:35:51 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sat Nov 18 17:35:55 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ma.gnolia Blog: JSON, HTML, and Microformats. Oh, My!
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611181735m2859ada5sa6f09b01613e7907@mail.gmail.com>

In case anyone missed it... something to play with and offer ideas for:

http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2006/11/14/json-html-and-microformats-oh-my

Chris

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 21:03:08 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Sat Nov 18 21:03:15 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern
In-Reply-To: <001a01c70aa9$cb684eb0$a401a8c0@LittleGeek>
Message-ID: <006601c70b98$01bb5fe0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>

To all:

Well, looks like it's time for me to inject my two cents. I had planned to
bring this to the group later when I had time to focus on it, but looks like
the ship is sailing so I better get on board or left behind...

BTW, I'm not presenting the following to be contrary to anyone else's
comments, this are just a brief summary of my thoughts on the subject.

I spent 12 years working on trying to create a database schema and taxonomy
for the software products that we sold at Xtras, and one of the issues that
always confounded me was the concept of a "Product."  I realized after much
hard work that whereas an "Item" was easy to define because it had a price
associated with it and hence other tangible attributes[1], a "Product"
really was a marketing concept and hence ethereal and almost impossible to
nail down in a taxonomy.  (Tangible attributes = Licensing, media
(cd/dvd/download), eligibility (full version/upgrade/comp. upgrade), etc.
for my context, but in other contexts size, color, material, etc. and so
much more.)

I tried for years to model things with "Product-Family" and "Product-Line"
and others, but nothing every really fit until I loosened my grip and just
went with a more general concept of "Saleable." The concept being that an
Item is Saleable as is a Product, as are Product Familis, etc. So what I
believe to be the best at capturing information about Products and Items is
a recursible concept called "Saleable." Hence I had planned to propose an
"hSaleable"

The top level schema for hSaleable would be the following with everything
but "Product" as optional:

* product = The name of the thing for sale (item, product, product family,
etc.)
* sku = Stock keeping unit (the website's unique human readable key for this
item/product/etc.)
* manufacturer/vendor/source = The company that creates this or where it is
source (all of these valid)
* description = Details about the product/item/etc.
* srp - Suggested Retail Price for this product/item/etc.
* price - Current price from this website for this product/item/etc.
* official - If "yes" then this is the company with the authority to publish
the official information (might be abused.)
* part-no - the manufacturer/vendor/source's official part/reference number
* serial-no - the serial number for this specific item (for one-of-a-kind
items, i.e. for a used car: it's VIN)

Beyond those, I envision a collection of name-value pairs that could be
named any (or all) of these names: facts/specs/details/attributes. These
would be used to specify things like color, size, material, licensing, etc.
(I like the work "attributes" the best, but that wording might be confused
with the usage of HTML element attributes.)

The following are two examples (one from software and another from
automobiles) with varying uses of the schema. Both are taken from real world
pages albeit with slight augmentation in order to display more schema
feature in just these two examples:

=====================================
Software: Shows two levels of nesting, facts, etc
=====================================


	
		yes
		ipworks
	
	

		Product Purchasing Options for
		
			
				/n software's
IP*Works!
			
		
	

	
			
				
					IP*Works! V6
.NET Edition
					IPN6-A
				
			
			
					
					
			
				
					IP*Works! V6
Java Server Edition
					IPE6-V
				
			
			
					
					

		

			Part #
			Product
			Price
		

		

				IPN6-A
					
						
							
IP*Works! V6 .NET Edition - Full Version

						
						

							One Development Workstation
							,
							Royalty-Free Distribution
						

							
					$499.00
				
			

			

				IPN6-AU
					
						
							
IP*Works! V6 .NET Edition - Upgrade

							Upgrade
						
						

							One Development Workstation
							,
							Royalty-Free Distribution
						

						

							(Requires IP*Works! V5 .NET Edition)
						

							
					$349.00
				
			

		
		

				IPE6-V
					
						
							
IP*Works! V6 Java Server Edition - Single Server

						
						

							Single Server License
						

							
					$799.00
				
			

			

				IPE6-VF
					
						
							
IP*Works! V6 Java Server Edition - Unlimited

						
						

							One Development Workstation
							,
							Royalty-Free Distribution
						

							
					$2,499.00
				
			

		
	



============================================
Automobile: Shows one level of nesting, price vs. srp, etc.
============================================


	
	

		Sale on
		
			
				Audi
				Q7
			
			Models
		
	

	
    
		
  • 
			
    
				Audi Q7 3.6
				$36,900
				(SRP:
				$39,900
				)
				
    The 3.6 liter V6
with FSI Direct Injection in combination with quattro all-wheel drive
provides superb performance and handling. Inside, spaciousness, luxury,
versatility, and Audi's legendary fit and finish. A superb choice.
    
			
    
		
    • 
		
  • 
			
    
				Audi Q7 3.6
Premium
				$42,900
				(SRP:
				$45,900
				)
				
    The power, control,
performance and design of the Audi Q7 3.6, enhanced with luxurious extras: a
Bose Premium sound system and MMI Advanced with color screen are just the
beginning.
    
			
    
		
    • 
		
  • 
			
    
				Audi Q7 4.2
				$45,900
				(SRP:
				$49,900
				)
				
    A true milestone
that combines unforgettable Audi performance, safety, design, and
versatility with the best qualities of an SUV, including off-road
capabilities, a high seating position, and interior spaciousness and
flexibility. The Audi Q7 makes the impossible possible.
    
			
    
		
    • 
		
  • 
			
    
				Audi Q7 4.2
Premium
				$52,900
				(SRP:
				$59,900
				)
				
    With a host of
innovative, standard extras including Rear View Camera with Acoustic
Parking, Audi Side Assist, and Advanced Key, the Audi Q7
    
			
    
		
    • 
	




=====================================

>From my experience of literally thousands of hours trying to taxonify
product information in order to automate the business and improve the
company's website, this is what I think is needed.  Now I haven't tried to
reconcile any of this to hlisting or anything else more than just a cursory
glance. 

I look forward to everyone's thoughts and input.

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/



-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Gustafson
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 7:38 PM
To: Microformats-Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern

David Janes wrote:
> I'm not sure if I'm that excited :-) but I definitely think there's a 
> gap that can be filled (i.e. that hReview/hListing identify people 
> directly but only things indirectly). It's possible, but this is very 
> speculative, that this could simplify the path for creating new 
> microformats like hWine.

I am just joining the discussion list, so forgive me if what I rehash older
discussions. Craig Cook and I had been working on hProduct somewhat in
isolation and thought we should post the information we've created to get
our ideas and thoughts out there. I see some sililarities with what is up on
hItem, though I agree hItem may be a little too broad (see the earlier 'what
is an item?' comments).

>> I'd definitely advocate for hItem including information about its 
>> creator, and optionally its producer and vendor. These of course 
>> could be hCard entries or links, and I think it would give us a 
>> flexible way to include much of the information that felt very "wine" 
>> specific such as Vintage (aka, producer and production date). It 
>> seems as though an hItem's production and creation could also be 
>> considered events, so reusing hEvent here seems to make a lot of sense.
>>
>> What do you think? Is this more complicated than it needs to be, or 
>> is the reuse of other microformats here a good thing?
>
> Let's go through the examples and see what's frequently used, somewhat 
> used and rarely or sporadically used. That will point the right 
> direction I think. And, as per usual, I encourage everyone to 
> contribute to the examples because that's one of the hardest and least 
> thanked parts.

Hmm, I think we really need to boil this down to its essence. With products,
unless you want to go the route niche microformats like hWine or hBook, it
makes sense to stick to a few key, repeatable fields, for example:
* name
* description
* image
* msrp
* uri
* brand

The rest could be handled by a generic property value construct which we've
called 'p-v' (and may honestly have usefulness outside the hProduct/hItem
concept).

>> Also, is this ground already being covered by hListing (which seems 
>> to be looking to include some of this info), or would you simply have 
>> hListings of events (hEvent),  people (hCard), and  things (hItem)?
>
>The latter, but we're data mining hListing/hReview to maximize reuse.

IMHO, there are a few places I think hListing (and hReview for that matter)
are reaching a bit beyond what should be their scope. This is where I think
hProduct/hItem fits in. In other words, you could essentially script the
linking of a product for sale in an hListing with a review of that product
in hReview.

I'd be interested in feedback on what Craig and I have posted so far and
perhaps we can find a way to merge hItem and hProduct and suggest some
augmentations to hListing and hReview to make some space for hProduct/hItem.

We will be posting some of our examples shortly.

Cheers,

Aaron

----
Aaron Gustafson
Sr. Web Designer/Developer
Easy! Designs, LLC
203-215-8829 O
203-230-0773 F
aaron@easy-designs.net
----
Easy! Designs, LLC
83 Treadwell St
Hamden, CT 06517
http://www.easy-designs.net
http://www.easy-reader.net


_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sun Nov 19 04:26:50 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sun Nov 19 04:26:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ma.gnolia Blog: JSON, HTML, and Microformats. Oh, My!
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611181735m2859ada5sa6f09b01613e7907@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0611181735m2859ada5sa6f09b01613e7907@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611190426y5da6ca3ft53875e556e3fdb7@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, where do we go to actually find example feeds?

Regards, etc...
David

On 11/18/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> In case anyone missed it... something to play with and offer ideas for:
>
> http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2006/11/14/json-html-and-microformats-oh-my
-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Sun Nov 19 16:21:01 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Sun Nov 19 16:21:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Cite rev-reply
In-Reply-To: <006b01c70b99$e779a7c0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <005301c70c39$c2adfcc0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>

Hi all: 

I'm trying to figure out how best to use cite rev-reply in the case of
replying to a commentor on a blog post. 

Using the example from http://microformats.org/wiki/cite-rel as a guide: 

        In reply to 
        
        this post
        by  Ryan King .
        *INSERT FLAME HERE* 

I don't want to say that the blog post annoys me, I want to say that the
commentors on the blog post annoys me. :-)  Thoughts on that usage?

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ 

P.S. FWIW, here is the blog post:
http://www.hawaiistreets.com/seoblog/?itemid=748&catid=20 

From lists at larryhalff.com  Sun Nov 19 18:23:55 2006
From: lists at larryhalff.com (Larry Halff)
Date: Sun Nov 19 18:24:04 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ma.gnolia Blog: JSON, HTML, and Microformats. Oh, My!
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611190426y5da6ca3ft53875e556e3fdb7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0611181735m2859ada5sa6f09b01613e7907@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611190426y5da6ca3ft53875e556e3fdb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25A3B226-FCED-4300-87B0-58301AF4CE6D@larryhalff.com>

Here's an example publish and subscribe page for all bookmarks on  
Ma.gnolia tagged "microformats":

http://ma.gnolia.com/feeds/tags/microformats

It points to these three microformatted feeds:

xFolk: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/xfolk/tags/microformats
hAtom: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hatom/tags/microformats
hReview: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hreview/tags/microformats
Combined: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/micro/tags/microformats

Of course, we'd love to hear any feedback or suggestions folks might  
have.

Cheers,
larry

On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:26 AM, David Janes wrote:

> Sorry, where do we go to actually find example feeds?
>
> Regards, etc...
> David
>
> On 11/18/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
>> In case anyone missed it... something to play with and offer ideas  
>> for:
>>
>> http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2006/11/14/json-html-and-microformats-oh-my
> -- 
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://www.onamine.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

-----
Larry Halff
Mailing Lists Only
For humam contact: email [at] larryhalff [dot] com


From scott at randomchaos.com  Sun Nov 19 19:06:22 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sun Nov 19 19:06:38 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ma.gnolia Blog: JSON, HTML, and Microformats. Oh, My!
In-Reply-To: <25A3B226-FCED-4300-87B0-58301AF4CE6D@larryhalff.com>
References: <1bc4603e0611181735m2859ada5sa6f09b01613e7907@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611190426y5da6ca3ft53875e556e3fdb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<25A3B226-FCED-4300-87B0-58301AF4CE6D@larryhalff.com>
Message-ID: <21DBB3F9-487F-4318-8A7F-3A4E93887C30@randomchaos.com>

On Nov 19, 2006, at 8:23 PM, Larry Halff wrote:

> Here's an example publish and subscribe page for all bookmarks on  
> Ma.gnolia tagged "microformats":
>
> http://ma.gnolia.com/feeds/tags/microformats
>
> It points to these three microformatted feeds:
>
> xFolk: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/xfolk/tags/microformats
> hAtom: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hatom/tags/microformats
> hReview: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hreview/tags/microformats
> Combined: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/micro/tags/microformats
>
> Of course, we'd love to hear any feedback or suggestions folks  
> might have.

In the head of the first link is this:



This claims to be a link to XHTML, but it's actually a link to RSS,  
and it appears to be identical to the "lite" RSS feed found here:

http://ma.gnolia.com/rss/lite/tags/microformats

Peace,
Scott
From lists at larryhalff.com  Sun Nov 19 21:38:12 2006
From: lists at larryhalff.com (Larry Halff)
Date: Sun Nov 19 21:38:26 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ma.gnolia Blog: JSON, HTML, and Microformats. Oh, My!
In-Reply-To: <21DBB3F9-487F-4318-8A7F-3A4E93887C30@randomchaos.com>
References: <1bc4603e0611181735m2859ada5sa6f09b01613e7907@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20611190426y5da6ca3ft53875e556e3fdb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<25A3B226-FCED-4300-87B0-58301AF4CE6D@larryhalff.com>
	<21DBB3F9-487F-4318-8A7F-3A4E93887C30@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <905A066E-DE92-472E-AFE6-0EE06C043CE4@larryhalff.com>

Thanks for the catch, I've removed the bad alternate.

larry

On Nov 19, 2006, at 7:06 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:

> On Nov 19, 2006, at 8:23 PM, Larry Halff wrote:
>
>> Here's an example publish and subscribe page for all bookmarks on  
>> Ma.gnolia tagged "microformats":
>>
>> http://ma.gnolia.com/feeds/tags/microformats
>>
>> It points to these three microformatted feeds:
>>
>> xFolk: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/xfolk/tags/microformats
>> hAtom: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hatom/tags/microformats
>> hReview: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hreview/tags/microformats
>> Combined: http://ma.gnolia.com/html/micro/tags/microformats
>>
>> Of course, we'd love to hear any feedback or suggestions folks  
>> might have.
>
> In the head of the first link is this:
>
> 
>
> This claims to be a link to XHTML, but it's actually a link to RSS,  
> and it appears to be identical to the "lite" RSS feed found here:
>
> http://ma.gnolia.com/rss/lite/tags/microformats
>
> Peace,
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

-----
Larry Halff
Mailing Lists Only
For humam contact: email [at] larryhalff [dot] com


From limbo at actcom.co.il  Mon Nov 20 00:13:27 2006
From: limbo at actcom.co.il (Eran)
Date: Mon Nov 20 00:13:32 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Cite rev-reply
In-Reply-To: <005301c70c39$c2adfcc0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <200611200813.kAK8DUPJ003184@microformats.org>

Mike said:
> I'm trying to figure out how best to use cite rev-reply in the case of
> replying to a commentor on a blog post.

Hey Mike,

Some blogs provide permalinks to comments so if possible I'd use that. I
believe that's usually done using an anchor, so something like the following
should work:

> 
>         In reply to 
>         
>         this post
>         by  Ryan King .
>         *INSERT FLAME HERE*

In the specific case you mentioned, I think you can fudge using this url as
the target:
http://www.hawaiistreets.com/seoblog/?itemid=748&catid=20#comments

HTH,
Eran.

From costello at mitre.org  Mon Nov 20 03:25:41 2006
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Mon Nov 20 03:21:46 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?
Message-ID: 

Hi Folks,

Is this legal:


    401 East 6th St.


I think that it is not legal.  

My understanding of the abbr design pattern is that the value of the
title attribute is to be used as the value of the property specified in
the class attribute.  In this case there are two properties (geo and
adr) specified in the class attribute.  Thus, an hCard tool would not
know whether the value of the title attribute should be applied to the
geo property or to the adr property.

What do you say?

/Roger

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 04:11:07 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Nov 20 04:11:13 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <21e770780611200411o118c1f5esddd37343c0976216@mail.gmail.com>

I'd say that is legal, abit strange, but valid.

ADR itself has no value, only the sub-properties. Just like N & FN we
do class="fn n" all the time, and the FN is made-up of all the child
nodes, whereas the N is only the portions of it's sub-properties,
given-name, etc.

In your example, parsers do not actually look for any value of ADR
only children properties, so the abbr would be ignored in this case
when applied to the ADR.

-brian

On 11/20/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Is this legal:
>
> 
>     401 East 6th St.
> 
>
> I think that it is not legal.
>
> My understanding of the abbr design pattern is that the value of the
> title attribute is to be used as the value of the property specified in
> the class attribute.  In this case there are two properties (geo and
> adr) specified in the class attribute.  Thus, an hCard tool would not
> know whether the value of the title attribute should be applied to the
> geo property or to the adr property.
>
> What do you say?
>
> /Roger
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From costello at mitre.org  Mon Nov 20 04:25:26 2006
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Mon Nov 20 04:21:31 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611200411o118c1f5esddd37343c0976216@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Thanks Brian.  Let me try to state a general rule for the abbr design
pattern:

"The value of the title attribute is used as the value of only the
property (specified in the class attribute) that has no subproperties."

Is that a correct statement of the rule?

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Suda
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:11 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?

I'd say that is legal, abit strange, but valid.

ADR itself has no value, only the sub-properties. Just like N & FN we
do class="fn n" all the time, and the FN is made-up of all the child
nodes, whereas the N is only the portions of it's sub-properties,
given-name, etc.

In your example, parsers do not actually look for any value of ADR
only children properties, so the abbr would be ignored in this case
when applied to the ADR.

-brian

On 11/20/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Is this legal:
>
> 
>     401 East 6th St.
> 
>
> I think that it is not legal.
>
> My understanding of the abbr design pattern is that the value of the
> title attribute is to be used as the value of the property specified
in
> the class attribute.  In this case there are two properties (geo and
> adr) specified in the class attribute.  Thus, an hCard tool would not
> know whether the value of the title attribute should be applied to
the
> geo property or to the adr property.
>
> What do you say?
>
> /Roger
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 07:47:29 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Nov 20 07:47:33 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611200411o118c1f5esddd37343c0976216@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <21e770780611200747r25854474n18b331566c14f92e@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/20/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Thanks Brian.  Let me try to state a general rule for the abbr design
> pattern:
>
> "The value of the title attribute is used as the value of only the
> property (specified in the class attribute) that has no subproperties."
>
> Is that a correct statement of the rule?

--- not exactly, because GEO has sub-properties, but there is a
"special" instance where GEO can be in an ABBR element without
sub-properties. At the moment it is the only one, but it COULD exist
in the future other formats that work in a similar manner. Otherwise,
your statement would be how i interpret the current parsing rules.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From tane.piper at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 08:09:16 2006
From: tane.piper at gmail.com (Tane Piper)
Date: Mon Nov 20 08:09:22 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] New Drupal Microformat module in development
Message-ID: <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

I have recently started a new project in Drupal to support Microformats.

It's currently in Alpha development, with the main focus on getting
hCard and hCalendar support in first.

The eventual plan is to allow a user to enter in the data for a
microformat, say an hCard.  The module will then create the XHTML and
save this to the database.  This can then be embedded into any page or
post within a Drupal site either through options ("Embed Your hCard in
Post"), or via an embed tag like this:

[micro embed="hCard"]Tane Piper[/micro]

This would then embed the hCard from the database with fn of "Tane Piper".

The second part of the module is to build in a viewer, similar to
Jason Kolb's one at http://www.xformats.org/MicroViewer

How this viewer would be implemented is when a post has any recognised
embedded microcontent, a button would be displayed on the page (e.g.
the bottom of the post) which when clicked, will display the
microcontent (through JS).

The module will also be extensible through the creation of sub-modules
for the microcontent format.  For example, with the core version
planned there is:

microcontent.module - the core modules, deals with database queries,
embedding, and viewer
hcalendar.module - creates hCalendar microformats
hcard.module - creates hCard microformats

But someone could easily write a hReview.module, which just needs to
adhear to the API of the module to display it.

Any comments, suggestions and queries are very welcome, and if anyone
would like to contribute to this project, please get in touch.

On a sidenote, I have been looking at creating my own microformat. I
work in the music industry and I have been looking into the idea of
hMusic - a microformat for displaying single/album information which
would include name and artists information, a pack shot (image) and
track listings.  You can see my idea at
http://digitalspaghetti.me.uk/drupal5/node/5 and I would again
appreciate any feedback on this, whether it's worth pursuing as per
the microformats.org submission guidelines.

Regards,
Tane Piper
http://digitalspaghetti.me.uk/drupal5
From kenji at alexa.com  Mon Nov 20 09:36:02 2006
From: kenji at alexa.com (Kenji Matsuoka)
Date: Mon Nov 20 09:40:44 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard search engine at Alexa
References: <41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36882@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
Message-ID: <41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36883@karl.presidio.alexa.com>

I've written an hCard search engine as a sample app for the Alexa Web Search Platform (AWSP).  I looked at around 220,000,000 pages on some of the more frequently visited domains on the web, and found around 250,000 hCards.  You can try it out at http://www.alexa.com/site/devcorner/hcard.  The source code isn't up on the web site yet, but I think it will be soon.

This is intended more as an AWSP demo than as a full-fledged application.  Still, it's kind of fun to play with. 

I had help from some of my co-workers at Alexa who are microformat enthusiasts, including Ben West.  

Enjoy,

Kenji







From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Nov 20 10:00:48 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Nov 20 10:01:14 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] New Drupal Microformat module in development
In-Reply-To: <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10746A9F-3416-49ED-9A1E-C060E4CA5F02@randomchaos.com>

On Nov 20, 2006, at 10:09 AM, Tane Piper wrote:

> I have recently started a new project in Drupal to support  
> Microformats.
>
> It's currently in Alpha development, with the main focus on getting
> hCard and hCalendar support in first.

Neat.  You might want to look at these:

http://factorycity.net/demos/drupal/event_system/microformats/
http://www.allinthehead.com/hkit

Also, Drupal allows you to use both PHP and HTML as template  
syntaxes, so do you really need to add yet another syntax?

> On a sidenote, I have been looking at creating my own microformat. I
> work in the music industry and I have been looking into the idea of
> hMusic - a microformat for displaying single/album information which
> would include name and artists information, a pack shot (image) and
> track listings.  You can see my idea at
> http://digitalspaghetti.me.uk/drupal5/node/5 and I would again
> appreciate any feedback on this, whether it's worth pursuing as per
> the microformats.org submission guidelines.

"My own microformat" is really an oxymoron, as the value of  
microformats comes almost entirely from the shared vocabulary  
developed within a community.  (Similarly, a language only one person  
spoke wouldn't last long.)  Luckily, the community has already  
started work on this:

http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info

Peace,
Scott

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Nov 20 10:08:18 2006
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Nov 20 10:08:47 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard search engine at Alexa
In-Reply-To: <41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36883@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
References: <41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36882@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
	<41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36883@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
Message-ID: 

On 20 Nov 2006, at 17:36, Kenji Matsuoka wrote:
> I've written an hCard search engine as a sample app for the Alexa  
> Web Search Platform (AWSP).  I looked at around 220,000,000 pages  
> on some of the more frequently visited domains on the web, and  
> found around 250,000 hCards.  You can try it out at http:// 
> www.alexa.com/site/devcorner/hcard.  The source code isn't up on  
> the web site yet, but I think it will be soon.
>
> This is intended more as an AWSP demo than as a full-fledged  
> application.  Still, it's kind of fun to play with.
>
> I had help from some of my co-workers at Alexa who are microformat  
> enthusiasts, including Ben West.

Very nice work. I'm getting a few instances of no results returned,  
but I guess that's just early code. Not sure if using the ? character  
when searching for Tantek had anything to do with it though.

One thing I would request though is that the results listing also be  
marked up with hCard, since that would enable use of existing  
Microformats browser tools to transfer hCards from the results into  
desktop address books and so forth.

Ben
From tane.piper at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 10:08:32 2006
From: tane.piper at gmail.com (Tane Piper)
Date: Mon Nov 20 10:08:57 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] New Drupal Microformat module in development
In-Reply-To: <10746A9F-3416-49ED-9A1E-C060E4CA5F02@randomchaos.com>
References: <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>
	<10746A9F-3416-49ED-9A1E-C060E4CA5F02@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <123b586b0611201008o47c0ceb7seaeb27c2fbc75755@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Neat.  You might want to look at these:
>
> http://factorycity.net/demos/drupal/event_system/microformats/
> http://www.allinthehead.com/hkit
>
> Also, Drupal allows you to use both PHP and HTML as template
> syntaxes, so do you really need to add yet another syntax?

Thats great, thanks for pointing that out, I'll have a look tommorow
as anything that can make my life easier :)

>
> "My own microformat" is really an oxymoron, as the value of
> microformats comes almost entirely from the shared vocabulary
> developed within a community.  (Similarly, a language only one person
> spoke wouldn't last long.)  Luckily, the community has already
> started work on this:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info
>

of course :)  I only meant that in the way that I was looking in to
it, but this media-info looks perfect.  Thanks again!

Tane
From ehs at pobox.com  Mon Nov 20 11:59:55 2006
From: ehs at pobox.com (Edward Summers)
Date: Mon Nov 20 12:00:12 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard search engine at Alexa
In-Reply-To: <41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36883@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
References: <41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36882@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
	<41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36883@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 20, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Kenji Matsuoka wrote:
> The source code isn't up on the web site yet, but I think it will  
> be soon.

Very nice! Please ping either this list or microformats-dev when the  
code becomes available.

//Ed
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 12:03:58 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Mon Nov 20 12:04:02 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] New Drupal Microformat module in development
In-Reply-To: <123b586b0611201008o47c0ceb7seaeb27c2fbc75755@mail.gmail.com>
References: <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>
	<10746A9F-3416-49ED-9A1E-C060E4CA5F02@randomchaos.com>
	<123b586b0611201008o47c0ceb7seaeb27c2fbc75755@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611201203m4716d69q4e846cec8407c5cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/20/06, Tane Piper  wrote:
> >
> > Neat.  You might want to look at these:
> >
> > http://factorycity.net/demos/drupal/event_system/microformats/
> > http://www.allinthehead.com/hkit
> >
> > Also, Drupal allows you to use both PHP and HTML as template
> > syntaxes, so do you really need to add yet another syntax?
>
> Thats great, thanks for pointing that out, I'll have a look tommorow
> as anything that can make my life easier :)

I've also expressed my interest to Dries in adding hAtom to the
default templates in Drupal 5. Anyone interested in taking a crack at
it would be appreciated!

Otherwise, good to see Drupal is finally getting some microformat action.


> > "My own microformat" is really an oxymoron, as the value of
> > microformats comes almost entirely from the shared vocabulary
> > developed within a community.  (Similarly, a language only one person
> > spoke wouldn't last long.)  Luckily, the community has already
> > started work on this:
> >
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info
> >
>
> of course :)  I only meant that in the way that I was looking in to
> it, but this media-info looks perfect.  Thanks again!

Furthermore, take a look at the work that's been done on XSPF (www.xspf.org/).

Chris


> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 20 13:58:06 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:59:39 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] New Drupal Microformat module in development
In-Reply-To: <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4nqUwWpuTiYFFwqm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <123b586b0611200809k417117am489966884924987d@mail.gmail.com>,
Tane Piper  writes

>On a sidenote, I have been looking at creating my own microformat. I
>work in the music industry and I have been looking into the idea of
>hMusic - a microformat for displaying single/album information which
>would include name and artists information, a pack shot (image) and
>track listings.  You can see my idea at
>http://digitalspaghetti.me.uk/drupal5/node/5

Other issues not withstanding, your use of id="1", id="2" etc. would
mean that there could only be one such album per page.

Besides, an OL should suffice.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 14:59:10 2006
From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy)
Date: Mon Nov 20 15:00:11 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Exporting Hcard data
In-Reply-To: <455DEEB9.20703@lemoyne.edu>
References: <455DEEB9.20703@lemoyne.edu>
Message-ID: 

Hi,
Just small notice: why duplicate data?
Instead of
> 
> 
<%= rs("FirstName") %>  <%= rs("LastName") %> div>

You could write



	<%=rs("FirstName") %>
	<%=rs("LastName") %>



And what this   is for?

best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy


On 18/11/2006, at 4:17 AM, Michelle Tarby wrote:

> OK, I'm making progress - I wasn't passing any kind of ID, so  
> that's why X2V would just spin away.
>
> What I have noticed is that it looks like the vCard that's  
> generated adds a bunch of extra commas, so I'm guessing I don't  
> have my page formatted correctly.
>
> 

> 
> 
<%= rs("FirstName") %>  <%= rs("LastName") %> div>
> 
<%= rs("Title") %>

> 
<%= rs("Department") %>

> 

> 
<%= rs("Street1") %>  <%= rs 
> ("Street2") %>

> 
<%= rs("Phone") %>

> 
> 

>
> I'm wondering if I'm confusing where to use div vs. span or if that  
> makes a difference.  Any information would be appreciated!
>
>
>> I'm pretty most of what goes through X2V is pulled from a  
>> database,  so that really shouldn't be an issue.  Can you give a  
>> URL for hCards  failing to transform with X2V?
>>
>> Peace,
>> Scott
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 15:29:19 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Mon Nov 20 15:29:24 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Converting the Skype extension to work with any
	provider using hcard
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611201529k73d0b1b9k811888a7225c0afa@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,

I'm not sure I'll have time, but I have a desire to convert the
recently released Skype Firefox extension [1] to work with any
callto:// service using a Greasemonkey script of Firefox extension
that detects .hcard .tel values.

Anyone interested? I'm not really able to code it, but can help
discover how to make this work...

Chris

[1] http://www.skype.com/help/guides/ff_extension/

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Nov 20 16:59:46 2006
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Nov 20 16:59:59 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Converting the Skype extension to work with any
	provider using hcard
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611201529k73d0b1b9k811888a7225c0afa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0611201529k73d0b1b9k811888a7225c0afa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05FF9C7A-5DF0-4A5D-A6B9-F42273B0F3B7@randomchaos.com>

On Nov 20, 2006, at 5:29 PM, Chris Messina wrote:

> I'm not sure I'll have time, but I have a desire to convert the
> recently released Skype Firefox extension [1] to work with any
> callto:// service using a Greasemonkey script of Firefox extension
> that detects .hcard .tel values.

That sounds like something I already did:

http://greasemonkey.makedatamakesense.com/callto_tel/

Peace,
Scott

From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 19:02:45 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Mon Nov 20 19:02:48 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard search engine at Alexa
In-Reply-To: <41089CB27BD8D24E8385C8003EDAF7AB04C36883@karl.presidio.alexa.com>
Message-ID: <015001c70d19$8518b180$0702a8c0@Guides.local>

>> I've written an hCard search engine as a sample app for the Alexa Web
Search Platform (AWSP).

AWESOME.  Way to go Kenji!

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/


From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 19:23:09 2006
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Mon Nov 20 19:23:13 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Cite rev-reply
In-Reply-To: <200611200813.kAK8DUPJ003184@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <015101c70d1c$5ef6dab0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>

Eran wrote:

>> Some blogs provide permalinks to comments so if possible 
>> I'd use that.  In the specific case you mentioned, I think 
>> you can fudge using this url as the target:
>> http://www.hawaiistreets.com/seoblog/?itemid=748&catid=20#comments 

Thanks.  It's annoying when website and/or webapp developers don't provide a
unique URL for each addressable "thing", no?

So, in this specific case, would you go with this?

   In reply to 
   Ro
b Said's
      comments on Ignat
Drozdov's blog post entitled 
   More
Talk on Hackable URLs 
      and Usability *INSERT FLAME HERE*
?

-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov 21 01:09:00 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov 21 01:10:30 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] PROPOSAL: keep it simple; make it extensible?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

In message , Andy Mabbett
 writes

>
>        
>                [hReview]
>                [other uFs]
>        

Another potential advantage to "hItem" would be an alternative to the
"include"; for instance, an album on Amazon, say:



could use

        

           Ibm 1401 - a Users Manual
           Johann Johannsson [1]
           
[first review]

           
[second review]

           
[third review]

        



Where each hReview uses the title and artist (marked up also according
to hReview) from its parent hItem.


[1] hcard committed for clarity


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From costello at mitre.org  Tue Nov 21 04:00:01 2006
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Tue Nov 21 03:56:08 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?
In-Reply-To: <21e770780611200411o118c1f5esddd37343c0976216@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Hey Brian, you said that this was a "strange" way of marking up the
information:

> 
>     401 East 6th St.
> 

What is a better way of marking up the information?  Is this a better
way:


     401 East 6th St.


Notice that I moved "adr" from abbr to span.

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Suda
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:11 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?

I'd say that is legal, abit strange, but valid.

ADR itself has no value, only the sub-properties. Just like N & FN we
do class="fn n" all the time, and the FN is made-up of all the child
nodes, whereas the N is only the portions of it's sub-properties,
given-name, etc.

In your example, parsers do not actually look for any value of ADR
only children properties, so the abbr would be ignored in this case
when applied to the ADR.

-brian

On 11/20/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Is this legal:
>
> 
>     401 East 6th St.
> 
>
> I think that it is not legal.
>
> My understanding of the abbr design pattern is that the value of the
> title attribute is to be used as the value of the property specified
in
> the class attribute.  In this case there are two properties (geo and
> adr) specified in the class attribute.  Thus, an hCard tool would not
> know whether the value of the title attribute should be applied to
the
> geo property or to the adr property.
>
> What do you say?
>
> /Roger
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov 21 14:02:23 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov 21 14:03:34 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

In message
, Ciaran
McNulty  writes

>
>
>Sorry, Mobile makes more sense.

Except that, once again, we have a non-abbreviation. "mobile" is not an
abbreviation of "cell".

Perhaps "object" should be allowable, after all; as an alternative to
"abbr"?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Nov 21 14:03:46 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Nov 21 14:05:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: <1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
Message-ID: 

In message <1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>, Ian Lloyd
 writes

> 
Office: Work class="value">+44 (0) 121 683 5151


Shouldn't the value be written as:

        +441216835151

according to international standards for phone numbers?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From karl at w3.org  Tue Nov 21 18:49:20 2006
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Tue Nov 21 18:49:29 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
Message-ID: <6B04C6AB-50C9-4226-A2CA-8DBB41BB5E22@w3.org>


Le 22 nov. 2006 ? 07:03, Andy Mabbett a ?crit :
> In message <1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>, Ian  
> Lloyd
>  writes
>
>> 
Office: Work > class="value">+44 (0) 121 683 5151

>
> Shouldn't the value be written as:
>
>         +441216835151
>
> according to international standards for phone numbers?

Related References
 From ITU - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU-T

Notation for national and international telephone numbers  
Recommendation E.123
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.123
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.std.internat/msg/24fc32228689a620? 
dmode=source






-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Nov 22 03:50:00 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Nov 22 03:50:08 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: is this use of geo + adr legal?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <21e770780611200411o118c1f5esddd37343c0976216@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <21e770780611220350p726095a1k446cd83c1febe86d@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/21/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Hey Brian, you said that this was a "strange" way of marking up the
> information:
>
> > 
> >     401 East 6th St.
> > 
>
> What is a better way of marking up the information?  Is this a better
> way:

--- i don't normally associate ABBR elements with multiple lines of
text, it isn't wrong, but feel strange - partly because most people
use DIV to create block-level elements for country-name or
street-address instead of using BR, but an ABBR element can only take
inline-elements. It isn't incorrect, but doesn't feel right to me, but
that's just personal preference.

> 
>      401 East 6th St.
> 
>
> Notice that I moved "adr" from abbr to span.

--- that won't work, because the street-adress needs to be nested
inside a class="adr", so you would need to do something like:


      401 East 6th
St.


what feels "strange" to me is the ABBR around several elements, not
where the placement of the ADR is. Why not try:



      401 East 6th St.
       ...



-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Nov 22 12:50:00 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:51:35 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
In-Reply-To: <6B04C6AB-50C9-4226-A2CA-8DBB41BB5E22@w3.org>
References: <45465DCC.3050404@sanchothefat.com>
	<21e770780610310525i51322cdfo5d2fded8600ed742@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A9164B9-2F36-4374-9621-997D63BC5144@lloydi.com>
	
	<6B04C6AB-50C9-4226-A2CA-8DBB41BB5E22@w3.org>
Message-ID: 

In message <6B04C6AB-50C9-4226-A2CA-8DBB41BB5E22@w3.org>, Karl Dubost
 writes

>>> 
Office: Work >> class="value">+44 (0) 121 683 5151

>>
>> Shouldn't the value be written as:
>>
>>         +441216835151
>>
>> according to international standards for phone numbers?

>Notation for national and international telephone numbers
>Recommendation E.123
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.123

which gives:

        Telephone number, national notation:      (042) 123 4567

        Telephone number, international notation: +31 42 123 4567

and states:

        E.123 also recommends that a hyphen (-), space ( ), or period
        (.) be used to visually separate groups of numbers. The
        parentheses are used to indicate digits that are sometimes not
        dialled. Parentheses should not be used in the international
        notation.

thereby disallowing:

        +44 (0)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Thu Nov 23 18:00:48 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Thu Nov 23 18:00:52 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom + Twitter/smithmag
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611231800t683a1bd2he8c6b3a76ea2b075@mail.gmail.com>

Hidey ho,

Tara was unfortunately sick this Thanksgiving, so I figeted a bit
(source here[1]) with my Twitter interpretation of the smithmag
contest (details here: http://twitter.com/smithmag):

http://factoryjoe.com/projects/sixwords/

using code first created by David Kadavy.

I added hAtom support to the page using the content from MagpieRSS and
added it to the examples page:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples#Transformation_5

Perhaps what's interesting is that you could use this approach for
just about any RSS feed... in order to style it in a more attractive
way... while still maintaining essentially the original semantics.

Thoughts and code improvements welcome, as I'm not really a developer.
I only play one on TV.

Happy Turkey-killing day!

Chris

[1] http://factoryjoe.com/projects/sixwords/index.txt

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [X] bloggable    [ ] ask first   [ ] private
From costello at mitre.org  Fri Nov 24 07:25:35 2006
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Fri Nov 24 07:21:39 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Is class="vcard fn" illegal?
Message-ID: 

Hi Folks,

I ran this through Brian Suda's xhtml2vcard.xsl tool and it gave no
output:

Mr. John Q. Public, MD

Why is it not legal?  

I thought that I could optimize using multiple property names in a
class attribute?  

I guess I don't understand when multiple property names can and cannot
be used in a class attribute.  Would someone please explain the rule?

/Roger

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Fri Nov 24 08:13:15 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Fri Nov 24 08:13:19 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Is class="vcard fn" illegal?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <21e770780611240813x72ae1958pc0390d0839dc021e@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/24/06, Costello, Roger L.  wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I ran this through Brian Suda's xhtml2vcard.xsl tool and it gave no
> output:
>
> Mr. John Q. Public, MD
>
> Why is it not legal?
>
> I thought that I could optimize using multiple property names in a
> class attribute?
>
> I guess I don't understand when multiple property names can and cannot
> be used in a class attribute.  Would someone please explain the rule?
>
> /Roger

There is an hCard FAQ about this:
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Can_you_mix_properties_and_the_root_class_name

if you don't understand/agree with the Q/A please let us know so we
can better explain why this is not possible.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 24 10:28:49 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 24 10:33:26 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Why not allow tags on within page links?
Message-ID: <6FI0YOmhnzZFFwxJ@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Why not also allow tagging on within-page links (i.e. after "#" as well
as after "/")? Then, if I have a page with sub-sections, each of those
could be a tag, according to their ID:

        

        [...]

        
"Whisky

        [...]

        
"Wine

        [...]

the only issue I can see would be backwards capacity if the link was to
a sub-section of a second (or external) page :

        

which existing parsers might interpret as a tag of:

        apage#beer

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 24 10:37:49 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 24 10:39:07 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Adapting existing links as tags
Message-ID: <+FP1o$m9vzZFFwxl@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


I currently have several instances of pages in a sub-directory, such as:

        http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/staffs/tittesworth/index.htm
        http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/staffs/tittesworth/latest.htm
        http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/staffs/tittesworth/latest-2006.htm
        http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/staffs/tittesworth/latest-2005.htm
        etc.

Where the root URL of that sub-directory may be suitable as a tag.


All of the pages apart from the index file link to the latter, thus:

        Tittesworth

usually more than once from each page, occasionally with other linking
text ("Tittesworth Reservoir").


I could, presumably, change the links to:

        

Are there any disadvantages to doing so (in terms of search engine
ranking, for example)? Should I do so on each such link, or just once
per page?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 24 11:35:35 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:39:10 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Advocacy, accessibility & Media Wiki voting
In-Reply-To: <2fEXeRFtchWFFwJn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <2fEXeRFtchWFFwJn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: 

In message <2fEXeRFtchWFFwJn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett
 writes

>I've also raised a "bug" for a feature request in Media Wiki (the
>Software used by, among others, the Wikipedia family of wikis, and the
>microformats 'wiki', asking for hAtom to be used in article histories.
>You can vote for that bug:
>
>
>
>though you may need to open an account first.

Not *one* of you has done so!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Nov 24 12:06:13 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Nov 24 12:07:51 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] tagging: not always appropriate
Message-ID: <1B93Jns1C1ZFFwxm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Some pages on the Wiki suggest tagging as a work-around, especially
where a microformat is thought to be "missing" a property which would be
useful.

It should be remembered that some sites do not, or cannot, use tagging,
and in some cases it would be inappropriate to do so.

For instance, if an obituary page like:

        

were to use an hCard, which has no "deceased" flag or date-of-death
property, it would be disrespectful (not to say confusing to a target
audience likely to be unfamiliar with blogging, tagging and the like) to
have a link to a page third-party page listing other dead people, and
especially one carrying commercial adverts related to death
(Technorati); which suggest that  "funny" is a related tag (Technorati
for "dead"); or to a page with pictures of dead and dying people
(Wikipedia); or simply any page treating death as a technical matter.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From kmarks at technorati.com  Fri Nov 24 22:09:08 2006
From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks)
Date: Fri Nov 24 22:09:17 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] tagging: not always appropriate
In-Reply-To: <1B93Jns1C1ZFFwxm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <1B93Jns1C1ZFFwxm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <6577a1b91b1c90c9fd367b1bf6b70685@technorati.com>


On Nov 24, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> For instance, if an obituary page like:
>
>         
>
> were to use an hCard, which has no "deceased" flag or date-of-death
> property, it would be disrespectful (not to say confusing to a target
> audience likely to be unfamiliar with blogging, tagging and the like) 
> to
> have a link to a page third-party page listing other dead people, and
> especially one carrying commercial adverts related to death
> (Technorati); which suggest that  "funny" is a related tag (Technorati
> for "dead"); or to a page with pictures of dead and dying people
> (Wikipedia); or simply any page treating death as a technical matter.

This is why you can use an arbitrary tagspace to disambiguate. You 
could create a  WMBC page for deceased members at

http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/tag/deceased

that linked to your obituaries page and use that.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 25 00:51:48 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 25 00:53:20 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] tagging: not always appropriate
In-Reply-To: <6577a1b91b1c90c9fd367b1bf6b70685@technorati.com>
References: <1B93Jns1C1ZFFwxm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<6577a1b91b1c90c9fd367b1bf6b70685@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <8tq1yKJkQAaFFw6V@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <6577a1b91b1c90c9fd367b1bf6b70685@technorati.com>, Kevin
Marks  writes

>This is why you can use an arbitrary tagspace to disambiguate. You
>could create a  WMBC page for deceased members at
>
>http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/tag/deceased

Indeed. But that would still not be appropriate.

>that linked to your obituaries page and use that.

Which obituaries page?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 25 02:00:03 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 25 02:01:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bug in rel-lint bookmarklet
Message-ID: 


I've just been experimenting with or "rel-lint" bookmarklet, and have
found what I believe is a bug.

It finds a tag in:

        


        

        

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From msimoni at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 04:02:50 2006
From: msimoni at gmail.com (Manuel Simoni)
Date: Sat Nov 25 04:02:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
Message-ID: <37707ed10611250402t5710c7d8qdae7ee4fb3fd3175@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've dabbled a lot with RDF and XHTML 2.0's Metainformation Module,
but I've come to the conclusion that custom fields, as present in a
wide variety of systems, from Linux file systems with extended
attributes to Google Base, are good enough most of the time.

I think that a microformat could bring together the many different
variations of custom fields in use today, specifically in the blog and
CMS scene, and could offer a lot of value to the emerging Data Web.
So, here it goes...


Custom fields are user-defined name/value pairs added to a weblog or
CMS entry. For example, a user employing his CMS as a bug-tracker
could add "reporter", "priority" and "related-bugs" fields.

Many blogging and CMS platforms provide custom fields, including
Wordpress (built-in), Drupal (Content Construction Kit (CCK) plug-in),
Movable Type (CustomFields and RightFields plug-ins), and TextPattern
(built-in).

I have analyzed the existing custom field rendering of Wordpress and
Drupal/CCK and have found that they could easily be unified using just
three classes:
- hcustomfield encloses a field,
- hcustomfield-name encloses the name of a field,
- hcustomfield-value encloses each value of a field.
(This structure is used for expository purposes only, and is not meant
as an attempt for a final microformat.)

Here is Wordpress' default rendering of custom fields:

    
  
  • 
    Priority: 
    low
  
    • 



Adapted to hcustomfield-* classes:

    
  
  • 
    Priority:
    low
  
    • 



Here is Drupal/CCK's default rendering of custom fields:


  
Priority

  

    
low

  




Adapted to hcustomfield-* classes:


  
Priority

  

    
low

  




The hcustomfield-* classes make a unified extraction algorithm
possible, and require only minimally invasive changes to existing
rendering code.

Some notes:
- Between systems, there is no agreement on field naming and namespace
conventions.
- All systems allow strings (HTML?) and some allow 
references as field values.
- Some systems allow multi-valued fields while others allow only
single-valued fields.

Here's a full example:


What do you think?

Manuel

-- 
Manuel Simoni
http://manuel.typepad.com
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 04:16:25 2006
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Sat Nov 25 04:16:29 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <37707ed10611250402t5710c7d8qdae7ee4fb3fd3175@mail.gmail.com>
References: <37707ed10611250402t5710c7d8qdae7ee4fb3fd3175@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780611250416y53aba359wdda6642a566aaa36@mail.gmail.com>

you should certainly look into XOXO.
http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo

With an OL/UL, you can next a DL inside an LI.

This represent arbitrary XML attributes as a DL, but it could also
work as some custom fields. There is already several programming
libraries that can easily import/export XOXO data.

-brian

On 11/25/06, Manuel Simoni  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've dabbled a lot with RDF and XHTML 2.0's Metainformation Module,
> but I've come to the conclusion that custom fields, as present in a
> wide variety of systems, from Linux file systems with extended
> attributes to Google Base, are good enough most of the time.
>
> I think that a microformat could bring together the many different
> variations of custom fields in use today, specifically in the blog and
> CMS scene, and could offer a lot of value to the emerging Data Web.
> So, here it goes...
>
>
> Custom fields are user-defined name/value pairs added to a weblog or
> CMS entry. For example, a user employing his CMS as a bug-tracker
> could add "reporter", "priority" and "related-bugs" fields.
>
> Many blogging and CMS platforms provide custom fields, including
> Wordpress (built-in), Drupal (Content Construction Kit (CCK) plug-in),
> Movable Type (CustomFields and RightFields plug-ins), and TextPattern
> (built-in).
>
> I have analyzed the existing custom field rendering of Wordpress and
> Drupal/CCK and have found that they could easily be unified using just
> three classes:
> - hcustomfield encloses a field,
> - hcustomfield-name encloses the name of a field,
> - hcustomfield-value encloses each value of a field.
> (This structure is used for expository purposes only, and is not meant
> as an attempt for a final microformat.)
>
> Here is Wordpress' default rendering of custom fields:
> 
    
>   
  • 
>     Priority: 
>     low
>   
    • 
> 

>
> Adapted to hcustomfield-* classes:
> 
    
>   
  • 
>     Priority:
>     low
>   
    • 
> 

>
> Here is Drupal/CCK's default rendering of custom fields:
> 

>   
Priority

>   

>     
low

>   

> 

>
> Adapted to hcustomfield-* classes:
> 

>   
Priority

>   

>     
low

>   

> 

>
> The hcustomfield-* classes make a unified extraction algorithm
> possible, and require only minimally invasive changes to existing
> rendering code.
>
> Some notes:
> - Between systems, there is no agreement on field naming and namespace
> conventions.
> - All systems allow strings (HTML?) and some allow 
> references as field values.
> - Some systems allow multi-valued fields while others allow only
> single-valued fields.
>
> Here's a full example:
> 
>
> What do you think?
>
> Manuel
>
> --
> Manuel Simoni
> http://manuel.typepad.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 25 05:13:14 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 25 05:14:50 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: 
References: <002101c6fe84$133f6de0$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
	
	<2eCH+gz$wNUFFwZA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	
Message-ID: <0PpXK+QqFEaFFwZy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message , Andy Mabbett
 writes

> writes
>
>>In message , Ryan
>>King  writes
>>
>>>> The problem is that the current Microformat process is not at all
>>>>scalable.
>>
>>>You seem to assume that we want to scale. :D
>>
>>And you imply that "we" do not. Can you explain your reasoning, please,
>>including your definition of "we"?
>
>??

??

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From msimoni at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 07:07:02 2006
From: msimoni at gmail.com (Manuel Simoni)
Date: Sat Nov 25 07:05:50 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: 37707ed10611250402t5710c7d8qdae7ee4fb3fd3175@mail.gmail.com
Message-ID: <1164467222.7113.20.camel@localhost>

> you should certainly look into XOXO.
> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo

I know, I originally made a precursor to this strawman using XOXO:
http://manuel.typepad.com/manuel/2006/10/buckybase.html

However, following the Microformats process and studying the
Wordpress, Drupal/Content Construction Kit, Textpattern, and Movable
Type custom field implementations,  I found that XOXO isn't suited to
express the current behavior nicely.

Rewriting the current formats of Wordpress:

    
 
  • 
  Priority: 
  low
 
    • 



and Drupal/CCK:


 
Priority

 

  
low

 




in XOXO would be a reengineering effort for the affected communities,
whereas the hcustomfield-* classes are minimally invasive:


    
 
  • 
  Priority:
  low
 
    • 



and


 
Priority

 

  
low

 




For example, XOXO would force implementors to adapt a list structure,
which probably is too rigid for them. The hcustomfield-* classes let
implementors use any layout they desire, and my examples show that the
use of these three simple classes is enough to unify two major existing
implementations (Wordpress and Drupal).

Manuel

--
Manuel Simoni
http://manuel.typepad.com


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 25 07:39:16 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 25 07:40:43 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] RDFa vs microformats 
Message-ID: 


In case you missied my adding it to the 'wiki;', here's an article about
"RDFa vs microformats ":

        

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From aaron at easy-designs.net  Sat Nov 25 07:47:55 2006
From: aaron at easy-designs.net (Aaron Gustafson)
Date: Sat Nov 25 07:47:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <1164467222.7113.20.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <025601c710a9$13135520$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>

Manuel Simoni wrote:
> However, following the Microformats process and studying the
> Wordpress, Drupal/Content Construction Kit, Textpattern, and
> Movable Type custom field implementations,  I found that XOXO
> isn't suited to express the current behavior nicely.
> 
> Rewriting the current formats of Wordpress:
> 
    
>  
  • 
>   Priority: 
>   low
>  
    • 
> 

> 
> and Drupal/CCK:
> 

>  
Priority

>  

>   
low

>  

> 

> 
> in XOXO would be a reengineering effort for the affected
> communities, whereas the hcustomfield-* classes are minimally
> invasive: 
> 
> 
    
>  
  • 
>   Priority:
>   low
>  
    • 
> 

> 
> and
> 

>  
Priority

>  

>   
low

>  

> 

> 
> For example, XOXO would force implementors to adapt a list
> structure, which probably is too rigid for them. The
> hcustomfield-* classes let implementors use any layout they
> desire, and my examples show that the use of these three
> simple classes is enough to unify two major existing
> implementations (Wordpress and Drupal).

This is very similar to the property-value pair/group concept[1] we have
floated as part of hProduct.

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-brainstorming#Extensibility

I don't know if you think what we've put together would be applicable (we
were trying to keep it as simple as possible, hence the short names), but I
agree this is something that would be really nice to have and should be an
aspect of microformats, possibly existing as a microformat unto itself which
can be combined with other ones when/where it makes sense to create
subformats specific to a particular use (for instance, wine, televisions,
cars, etc. all have custom fields in the product world, most of which are
consistent within their category and could combine a property-value
construct with a standard hProduct to make a nice subformat -- perhaps a
better approach than the creation of niche microformats like hWine, though
I'm open to argument in the other direction).

Cheers,

Aaron

----
Aaron Gustafson
Easy! Designs, LLC
http://www.easy-designs.net
http://www.easy-reader.net


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 25 08:05:20 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:06:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Another uF "how to" article on-line
Message-ID: 




I haven't seen the above on the 'wiki' and I'm not sure where to add it,
or indeed, whether we should do so for each new "how to " article.

Thoughts?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 08:07:14 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:07:22 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <1164467222.7113.20.camel@localhost>
References: <1164467222.7113.20.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On 11/25/06, Manuel Simoni  wrote:

...

> For example, XOXO would force implementors to adapt a list structure,
> which probably is too rigid for them. The hcustomfield-* classes let
> implementors use any layout they desire, and my examples show that the
> use of these three simple classes is enough to unify two major existing
> implementations (Wordpress and Drupal).

Though the problem with the custom property-value approach is that
properties then must be visible. It also seems to go against the
current of current practice (where properties are encoded as
meaningful class names).

Bruce
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 25 08:21:25 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:21:29 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Issue with "fn org" when also organization unit
Message-ID: <21e523c20611250821q3d95dd6bib85bed5a276cdd73@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to mark up an organization where both the -name and -unit are
specified. I also want this to be an organization hCard.

I'm having trouble finding an adequate way to express this, as an
hCard with both the Organization Contact Info rule [1] and the Org
Optimization [2] seem to implicitly disallow having an
organization-unit

I.e. this is my company (ignoring the fn issue):


 ABC, Inc.,
 North American Division


To make it an organization hCard, I need somehow to have org == fn,
while still independently expressing the -unit. Something like this
...

ABC, Inc.,

 North American Division


... which strikes me as inadequate. Thoughts?

Regards, etc...

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22organization-name.22_Optimization

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 25 08:24:23 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:24:26 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Another uF "how to" article on-line
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <21e523c20611250824h72c576fcnb7847051421588d1@mail.gmail.com>

It's currently on the press page [1]. Perhaps a section in the FAQ for
"how do I do teh microformats"?

Regards, etc...

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/press

On 11/25/06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> 
>
> I haven't seen the above on the 'wiki' and I'm not sure where to add it,
> or indeed, whether we should do so for each new "how to " article.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From aaron at easy-designs.net  Sat Nov 25 08:28:59 2006
From: aaron at easy-designs.net (Aaron Gustafson)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:29:01 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <026401c710ae$cfa305f0$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>

Bruce D'Arcus [bdarcus.lists@gmail.com] wrote:
> On 11/25/06, Manuel Simoni  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
>> For example, XOXO would force implementors to adapt a list structure,
>> which probably is too rigid for them. The hcustomfield-* classes let
>> implementors use any layout they desire, and my examples show that
>> the use of these three simple classes is enough to unify two major
>> existing implementations (Wordpress and Drupal).
> 
> Though the problem with the custom property-value approach is
> that properties then must be visible. It also seems to go
> against the current of current practice (where properties are
> encoded as meaningful class names).

Not necessarily. If we implemented a strict guideline requiring the property
name *immediately* follow the "property" (or "hcustomfield-name") CLASS
declaration, it would not be difficult to write *or* parse and would keep
the property invisible. We have an example of this in the property-value bit
of the brainstorming on hProduct [1].

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-brainstorming#Extensibility

It would require separation of multi-word property names using either a
hyphen (-) or underscore (_), though. I originally thought a hyphen would
suffice, but hyphenated property names would likely exist somewhere, making
underscores probably the best choice for word separation.

Cheers,

Aaron

----
Aaron Gustafson
Easy! Designs, LLC
http://www.easy-designs.net
http://www.easy-reader.net 

From msimoni at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 08:29:29 2006
From: msimoni at gmail.com (Manuel Simoni)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:29:33 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <025601c710a9$13135520$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>
References: <1164467222.7113.20.camel@localhost>
	<025601c710a9$13135520$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>
Message-ID: <37707ed10611250829n5a56ea54jc04f2e01b1e6b1ff@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/25/06, Aaron Gustafson  wrote:
> Manuel Simoni wrote:
> > the hcustomfield-* classes are minimally
> > invasive:
> >
> > 
    
> >  
  • 
> >   Priority:
> >   low
> >  
    • 
> > 

...
> This is very similar to the property-value pair/group concept[1] we have
> floated as part of hProduct.
>
> [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-brainstorming#Extensibility

Cool, I think it's isomorphous... The "p-v" corresponds to
"hcustomfield", the "property" to "hcustomfield-name" and the "value"
to "hcustomfield-value".

> I don't know if you think what we've put together would be applicable (we
> were trying to keep it as simple as possible, hence the short names), but I
> agree this is something that would be really nice to have and should be an
> aspect of microformats, possibly existing as a microformat unto itself which
> can be combined with other ones when/where it makes sense to create
> subformats specific to a particular use (for instance, wine, televisions,
> cars, etc. all have custom fields in the product world, most of which are
> consistent within their category and could combine a property-value
> construct with a standard hProduct to make a nice subformat -- perhaps a
> better approach than the creation of niche microformats like hWine, though
> I'm open to argument in the other direction).

This sounds very interesting... of course, there's a danger here of
going meta, and never coming back :) However, like for custom fields
in weblogs and CMS, I can imagine that such a subformat could make use
of primitive values (strings at least) and links to other resources.

As an aside, I find this use of automatically inferring "property" and
"value" inside a 
 [1] problematic, because it places a
non-necessary burden on parsers, while making the life of writers only
minimally easier.

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-brainstorming#List_property-value_association_.28groups.29

Let's keep the topic of a general name/value subformat on the table,
and see how it develops.

Cheers,
Manuel
From msimoni at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 08:33:05 2006
From: msimoni at gmail.com (Manuel Simoni)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:33:13 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1164467222.7113.20.camel@localhost>
	
Message-ID: <37707ed10611250833q31dcaeet442bd7c62bac0ce2@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/26/06, Bruce D'Arcus  wrote:
> On 11/25/06, Manuel Simoni  wrote:
> > For example, XOXO would force implementors to adapt a list structure,
> > which probably is too rigid for them. The hcustomfield-* classes let
> > implementors use any layout they desire, and my examples show that the
> > use of these three simple classes is enough to unify two major existing
> > implementations (Wordpress and Drupal).
>
> Though the problem with the custom property-value approach is that
> properties then must be visible. It also seems to go against the
> current of current practice (where properties are encoded as
> meaningful class names).

I don't think so... the field names could always be hidden with CSS, right?



  
  low


From aaron at easy-designs.net  Sat Nov 25 08:50:38 2006
From: aaron at easy-designs.net (Aaron Gustafson)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:50:40 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <37707ed10611250829n5a56ea54jc04f2e01b1e6b1ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <026b01c710b1$d5cc99c0$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>

Manuel Simoni wrote:
> Cool, I think it's isomorphous... The "p-v" corresponds to
> "hcustomfield", the "property" to "hcustomfield-name" and the "value"
> to "hcustomfield-value". 

Exactly, like I said, we were trying to keep it simple.

>> I don't know if you think what we've put together would be applicable
>> (we were trying to keep it as simple as possible, hence the short
>> names), but I agree this is something that would be really nice to
>> have and should be an aspect of microformats, possibly existing as a
>> microformat unto itself which can be combined with other ones
>> when/where it makes sense to create subformats specific to a
>> particular use (for instance, wine, televisions, cars, etc. all have
>> custom fields in the product world, most of which are consistent
>> within their category and could combine a property-value construct
>> with a standard hProduct to make a nice subformat -- perhaps a better
>> approach than the creation of niche microformats like
> hWine, though I'm open to argument in the other direction).
> 
> This sounds very interesting... of course, there's a danger
> here of going meta, and never coming back :) 

Yes, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. As long as the
microformat is helping people do what they need to do, I think it's all good
and it could certainly keep the formal microformats at a bit higher level
(while still allowing for extensibility). It could create a thriving
subformat ecosystem, which I think is pretty neat.

> As an aside, I find this use of automatically inferring
> "property" and "value" inside a 
 [1] problematic, because
> it places a non-necessary burden on parsers, while making the
> life of writers only minimally easier.
> 
> [1]
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-brainstorming#List_prope
rty-value_association_.28groups.29

I'm not convinced of that. It is not all that difficult to parse a DL, in
fact I just recently wrote a generic JS row-striping script that allows you
to stripe tables and lists of all types (including DLs, even with multiple
DTs or DDs per group, as per the spec) [1]. The code was only a few lines
and could easily be repurposed to allow for harvesting of property-value
pairs. It simply requires node walking as opposed to bulk collection. It's
just an alternate sub-routine for collection based on the nodeName of the
"p-v" CLASSified element.

[1] http://easy-designs.net/code/stripey/test.php

Also, I was reminded (by Tantek) that we need to be focused on writers more
than parsers, and I think that from that standpoint, in the (edge) case
where you need multiple values for a property/a single value for multiple
properties/etc., DL makes a lot of sense -- much moreso than duplicating the
p-v structure or embedding a UL inside the value. Consider it a DRY KISS
[2,3].

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRY
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

> Let's keep the topic of a general name/value subformat on the
> table, and see how it develops.

Agreed. I think this is really great stuff and could do a lot to allow for
extensibility in microformats.

Cheers,

Aaron

----
Aaron Gustafson
Easy! Designs, LLC
http://www.easy-designs.net
http://www.easy-reader.net 

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 25 08:56:22 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 25 08:58:05 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bug in rel-lint bookmarklet
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

In message , Andy Mabbett
 writes

>I've just been experimenting with or "rel-lint" bookmarklet, and have
>found what I believe is a bug.
>
>It finds a tag in:
>
>        
> >  > references as field values.
> > > - Some systems allow multi-valued fields while others allow only
> > > single-valued fields.
> > >
> > > Here's a full example:
> > > 
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Manuel
> > >
> > > --
> > > Manuel Simoni
> > > http://manuel.typepad.com
> >  > _______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > >  http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > brian suda
> > http://suda.co.uk
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
>
> --
> - Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer
> 
>
> MSN/GTalk/Jabber:  singpolyma@gmail.com
> ICQ/AIM: 103332966
> BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/



-- 
- Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer


MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolyma@gmail.com
ICQ/AIM: 103332966
BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/
From singpolyma at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 10:35:12 2006
From: singpolyma at gmail.com (Stephen Paul Weber)
Date: Sat Nov 25 10:35:15 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <026b01c710b1$d5cc99c0$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>
References: <37707ed10611250829n5a56ea54jc04f2e01b1e6b1ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<026b01c710b1$d5cc99c0$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>
Message-ID: <6991f8e00611251035u31cf3958l7f3199e774c338bd@mail.gmail.com>

Creating 80%-or-more overlapping formats is evil.  XOXO can be made to
do anything - and this most especially.  So you have to change the
output code a tad more to apply it than you do for some other formats
- what does that hurt?  The resulting code is much better structured
anyway...
  -- Singpolyma

On 11/25/06, Aaron Gustafson  wrote:
> Manuel Simoni wrote:
> > Cool, I think it's isomorphous... The "p-v" corresponds to
> > "hcustomfield", the "property" to "hcustomfield-name" and the "value"
> > to "hcustomfield-value".
>
> Exactly, like I said, we were trying to keep it simple.
>
> >> I don't know if you think what we've put together would be applicable
> >> (we were trying to keep it as simple as possible, hence the short
> >> names), but I agree this is something that would be really nice to
> >> have and should be an aspect of microformats, possibly existing as a
> >> microformat unto itself which can be combined with other ones
> >> when/where it makes sense to create subformats specific to a
> >> particular use (for instance, wine, televisions, cars, etc. all have
> >> custom fields in the product world, most of which are consistent
> >> within their category and could combine a property-value construct
> >> with a standard hProduct to make a nice subformat -- perhaps a better
> >> approach than the creation of niche microformats like
> > hWine, though I'm open to argument in the other direction).
> >
> > This sounds very interesting... of course, there's a danger
> > here of going meta, and never coming back :)
>
> Yes, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. As long as the
> microformat is helping people do what they need to do, I think it's all good
> and it could certainly keep the formal microformats at a bit higher level
> (while still allowing for extensibility). It could create a thriving
> subformat ecosystem, which I think is pretty neat.
>
> > As an aside, I find this use of automatically inferring
> > "property" and "value" inside a 
 [1] problematic, because
> > it places a non-necessary burden on parsers, while making the
> > life of writers only minimally easier.
> >
> > [1]
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-brainstorming#List_prope
> rty-value_association_.28groups.29
>
> I'm not convinced of that. It is not all that difficult to parse a DL, in
> fact I just recently wrote a generic JS row-striping script that allows you
> to stripe tables and lists of all types (including DLs, even with multiple
> DTs or DDs per group, as per the spec) [1]. The code was only a few lines
> and could easily be repurposed to allow for harvesting of property-value
> pairs. It simply requires node walking as opposed to bulk collection. It's
> just an alternate sub-routine for collection based on the nodeName of the
> "p-v" CLASSified element.
>
> [1] http://easy-designs.net/code/stripey/test.php
>
> Also, I was reminded (by Tantek) that we need to be focused on writers more
> than parsers, and I think that from that standpoint, in the (edge) case
> where you need multiple values for a property/a single value for multiple
> properties/etc., DL makes a lot of sense -- much moreso than duplicating the
> p-v structure or embedding a UL inside the value. Consider it a DRY KISS
> [2,3].
>
> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRY
> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle
>
> > Let's keep the topic of a general name/value subformat on the
> > table, and see how it develops.
>
> Agreed. I think this is really great stuff and could do a lot to allow for
> extensibility in microformats.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Aaron
>
> ----
> Aaron Gustafson
> Easy! Designs, LLC
> http://www.easy-designs.net
> http://www.easy-reader.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
- Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer


MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolyma@gmail.com
ICQ/AIM: 103332966
BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/
From ryan at ryancannon.com  Sat Nov 25 11:19:07 2006
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Sat Nov 25 11:19:11 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Is class="vcard fn" illegal?
In-Reply-To: <200611251203.kAPC35jh028601@microformats.org>
References: <200611251203.kAPC35jh028601@microformats.org>
Message-ID: 

Is it perhaps useful to talk about implied vcards? The rule could be  
similar to:

If a an element with class=vcard does not have any hCard class names,  
imply the entire content as an fn field, and attempt to apply the  
implied "n" optimization.

Optionally, if the root element has @href, imply a class="url".

For example:

Ryan Cannon

becomes

BEGIN:VCARD
N:Cannon;Ryan;;;
FN:Ryan Cannon
URL:http\://www.perich.com
END:VCARD

All this is possible because it requires an hCard without hCard  
markup inside.

This is fairly powerful for a few reasons:

   * It does not require in-depth knowledge of hCard or vCard
   * Extraordinarily simple markup
   * Provides a smaller barrier-to-entry for microformats that  
require hCard

Once I started working with compound microformats (hresume, hreview,  
hatom, hcite) I began to find all of the additional mark-up  
cumbersome, especially for very simple vCards and where most of the  
code had to be written by hand.

-- 
Ryan

http://RyanCannon.com



On Nov 25, 2006, at 7:03 AM, microformats-discuss- 
request@microformats.org wrote:

>> Mr. John Q. Public, MD
>>
>> Why is it not legal?
>>
>> I thought that I could optimize using multiple property names in a
>> class attribute?
>>
>> I guess I don't understand when multiple property names can and  
>> cannot
>> be used in a class attribute.  Would someone please explain the rule?
>>
>> /Roger
>
> There is an hCard FAQ about this:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard- 
> faq#Can_you_mix_properties_and_the_root_class_name
>
> if you don't understand/agree with the Q/A please let us know so we
> can better explain why this is not possible.
>
> -brian

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 12:08:59 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sat Nov 25 12:09:05 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Issue with "fn org" when also organization unit
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20611250821q3d95dd6bib85bed5a276cdd73@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611250821q3d95dd6bib85bed5a276cdd73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611251208n372d8d8akce1ef624eb1a26d7@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/25/06, David Janes  wrote:

> To make it an organization hCard, I need somehow to have org == fn,
> while still independently expressing the -unit. Something like this
> ...
>
> ABC, Inc.,
> 
>  North American Division
> 
>
> ... which strikes me as inadequate. Thoughts?

Why not:


  ABC, Inc.,
  North American Division


I dunno if that's legit, but just another class ordering.

Chris

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Nov 25 12:12:45 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Nov 25 12:13:55 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Is class="vcard fn" illegal?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200611251203.kAPC35jh028601@microformats.org>
	
Message-ID: 

In message , Ryan
Cannon  writes

>If a an element with class=vcard does not have any hCard class names,
>imply the entire content as an fn field, and attempt to apply the
>implied "n" optimization.
>
>Optionally, if the root element has @href, imply a class="url".
>
>For example:
>
>Ryan Cannon
>
>becomes
>
>BEGIN:VCARD
>N:Cannon;Ryan;;;
>FN:Ryan Cannon
>URL:http\://www.perich.com
>END:VCARD

That seems like a good idea, so long as non-http hrefs (mailto:, tel:,
etc.) are parsed correctly:

        
        Ryan Cannon
        <\a>

would be OK, but what about:

        
        ryan@example.com
        <\a>

?

How would existing parsers treat those examples? Would they simply
ignore them?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

                Free Our Data:  
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Nov 25 12:52:33 2006
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Nov 25 12:52:38 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Issue with "fn org" when also organization unit
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0611251208n372d8d8akce1ef624eb1a26d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20611250821q3d95dd6bib85bed5a276cdd73@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0611251208n372d8d8akce1ef624eb1a26d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20611251252q17ecdc8fv9477a92d80bff349@mail.gmail.com>

This would be my preferred solution, but it doesn't conform to the Org
Contact Info rule [1].

Regards, etc...

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info

On 11/25/06, Chris Messina  wrote:
> On 11/25/06, David Janes  wrote:
>
> > To make it an organization hCard, I need somehow to have org == fn,
> > while still independently expressing the -unit. Something like this
> > ...
> >
> > ABC, Inc.,
> > 
> >  North American Division
> > 
> >
> > ... which strikes me as inadequate. Thoughts?
>
> Why not:
>
> 
>   ABC, Inc.,
>   North American Division
> 
>
> I dunno if that's legit, but just another class ordering.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From aaron at easy-designs.net  Sat Nov 25 17:04:20 2006
From: aaron at easy-designs.net (Aaron Gustafson)
Date: Sat Nov 25 17:04:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <6991f8e00611251035u31cf3958l7f3199e774c338bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007501c710f6$cf9c1360$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>

Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
> Creating 80%-or-more overlapping formats is evil.  XOXO can
> be made to do anything - and this most especially.  So you
> have to change the output code a tad more to apply it than you do for
> some other formats 
> - what does that hurt?  The resulting code is much better structured
> anyway... 
>   -- Singpolyma

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with XOXO.

I have re-read the specs based on your comment, looking for a connection, but maybe I'm missing something. Can you explain why you think a property-value grouping microformat would overlap with XOXO? It's not really an outline? I realize some instances make use of a list-based construct, but it could be natural language as well. Furthermore, it seems to me that your argument would nix any microformat that utilizes an (X)HTML list construct, which I think is extreme. And if someone thinks a property-value list is an appropriate XOXO, there's no reason they couldn't combine the two. I just see property-value filling a particular gap in terms of microformat extensibility, particularly for something like hProduct.

IMHO property-value doesn't appear to overlap 80%, or even 30%, with XOXO. Perhaps you could explain your resoning in a bit more detail?

Cheers,

Aaron

----
Aaron Gustafson
Easy! Designs, LLC
http://www.easy-designs.net
http://www.easy-reader.net 


From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Sat Nov 25 18:34:30 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Sat Nov 25 18:37:29 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <007501c710f6$cf9c1360$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>
Message-ID: 

Aaron,

DL/DT/DD in XHTML can already be used to semantically represent property
value sets and XOXO uses them for this purposes.  Hence XOXO already solves
this problem by reusing semantic XHTML.

Tantek


On 11/25/06 5:04 PM, "Aaron Gustafson"  wrote:

> Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
>> Creating 80%-or-more overlapping formats is evil.  XOXO can
>> be made to do anything - and this most especially.  So you
>> have to change the output code a tad more to apply it than you do for
>> some other formats
>> - what does that hurt?  The resulting code is much better structured
>> anyway... 
>>   -- Singpolyma
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with XOXO.
> 
> I have re-read the specs based on your comment, looking for a connection, but
> maybe I'm missing something. Can you explain why you think a property-value
> grouping microformat would overlap with XOXO? It's not really an outline? I
> realize some instances make use of a list-based construct, but it could be
> natural language as well. Furthermore, it seems to me that your argument would
> nix any microformat that utilizes an (X)HTML list construct, which I think is
> extreme. And if someone thinks a property-value list is an appropriate XOXO,
> there's no reason they couldn't combine the two. I just see property-value
> filling a particular gap in terms of microformat extensibility, particularly
> for something like hProduct.
> 
> IMHO property-value doesn't appear to overlap 80%, or even 30%, with XOXO.
> Perhaps you could explain your resoning in a bit more detail?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Aaron
> 
> ----
> Aaron Gustafson
> Easy! Designs, LLC
> http://www.easy-designs.net
> http://www.easy-reader.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 20:08:51 2006
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sat Nov 25 20:08:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
In-Reply-To: <455BAB2B.11978.83E626@bjonkman.sobac.com>
References: 
	
	<8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com>
	<455BAB2B.11978.83E626@bjonkman.sobac.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0611252008s6af33631n592662d21cedf1c9@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/15/06, Bob Jonkman  wrote:

> I'm all in favour of integrating forums and mailing lists.  A message or post is just a block
> of data to be stored in a database.  Data is entered or extracted either by e-mail or a
> browser, or a news client, or an IRC client, or a Wiki, or anything else capable of I/O.

It seems that this whole thread comes down to offering a forum "view"
of this mailing list -- along with feeds and other niceties that a
dedicated interface affords.

Well, you can already use Gmane to read this list (as Tantek pointed
out to me), though there're no feeds available:

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general

So I took it upon myself to mirror this list in Google Groups...
because, in particular, the groups beta has a nice interface for
dealing with the content found on this list. It's not ideal and Tantek
can accuse me of reinventing wheels and spinning my own, but I, at
least, find this alternative view useful:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/microformats/

Let me know what you think. Currently it doesn't allow posting as it's
a read-only mirror.

Chris

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From aaron at easy-designs.net  Sun Nov 26 10:49:19 2006
From: aaron at easy-designs.net (Aaron Gustafson)
Date: Sun Nov 26 10:49:21 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <00fc01c7118b$9519a280$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>

Tantek Celik [tantek@cs.stanford.edu] wrote:
> Aaron,
> 
> DL/DT/DD in XHTML can already be used to semantically
> represent property value sets and XOXO uses them for this
> purposes.  Hence XOXO already solves this problem by reusing
> semantic XHTML.
> 
> Tantek

I understand that, so should a DT-based XOXO within any microformat (hCard,
hCal, hProduct, etc.) automatically be considered properties for that
card/caledar/product? How would it work with a list of properties and values
or natural language properties and values? It seems like some part of the
XOXO spec should specify how to handle that (I couldn't find any mention of
it, perhaps you could point me to the right place...?) or the scope of XOXO
should be expanded to allow for situations like these.

Cheers,

Aaron

----
Aaron Gustafson
Easy! Designs, LLC
http://www.easy-designs.net
http://www.easy-reader.net 

From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 26 11:28:02 2006
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Sun Nov 26 11:28:25 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Issue with "fn org" when also organization unit
Message-ID: <20061126192803.38939.qmail@web30803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I had virtually the same issue a while ago. The solution we (Brian S. helped, I believe) came up with is in the examples page:
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#Organizations_and_Departments

It's pretty much what Chris outlined,  with just a minor difference (fn moving up to org line).
 
~ Tim 
tjameswhite.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Messina 
To: Microformats Discuss 
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 3:08:59 PM
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Issue with "fn org" when also organization unit

On 11/25/06, David Janes  wrote:

> To make it an organization hCard, I need somehow to have org == fn,
> while still independently expressing the -unit. Something like this
> ...
>
> ABC, Inc.,
> 
>  North American Division
> 
>
> ... which strikes me as inadequate. Thoughts?

Why not:


  ABC, Inc.,
  North American Division


I dunno if that's legit, but just another class ordering.

Chris

-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss






 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Sun Nov 26 13:25:19 2006
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Sun Nov 26 13:28:15 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: <00fc01c7118b$9519a280$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>
Message-ID: 

On 11/26/06 10:49 AM, "Aaron Gustafson"  wrote:

> Tantek Celik [tantek@cs.stanford.edu] wrote:
>> Aaron,
>> 
>> DL/DT/DD in XHTML can already be used to semantically
>> represent property value sets and XOXO uses them for this
>> purposes.  Hence XOXO already solves this problem by reusing
>> semantic XHTML.
>> 
>> Tantek
> 
> I understand that, so should a DT-based XOXO within any microformat (hCard,
> hCal, hProduct, etc.) automatically be considered properties for that
> card/caledar/product? How would it work with a list of properties and values
> or natural language properties and values? It seems like some part of the
> XOXO spec should specify how to handle that (I couldn't find any mention of
> it, perhaps you could point me to the right place...?) or the scope of XOXO
> should be expanded to allow for situations like these.

Quite the opposite actually.

The goals of any format are data fidelity and interoperability over time and
space, to which microformats adds a few more principles, like ease of use
for humans first rather than machines (though even that is derived from
observing that formats easier for humans lead to better data fidelity).

Arbitrary extension of the properties/values of any microformat just leads
to significantly worse interoperability as people mutate it in numerous
directions - e.g. babel.  The only partial exception to that we have found
that appears to work in the wild is "tagging" - where there is an upfront
expectation of a semi-chaotic (but also emergent semi-orderly) folksonomy.
Yet folksonomies themselves make poor data formats, for the same reason.

Thus arbitrary extensibility is actually a design-antipattern for those
goals, and to be explicitly avoided when designing formats.

Since XOXO itself only defines nested lists (and sets) of items with
arbitrary properties/values (with a certain fixed known set for compat with
existing uses), there is no expectation that user/author defined properties
themselves will interoperate.  In that extent XOXO is a more like a
meta-format like XML, RDF, or JSON that itself can be used to define
data-type specific formats, rather than like hCard and hCalendar that are
used to represent and interchange specific types of data.

Thanks,

Tantek

From singpolyma at gmail.com  Mon Nov 27 04:32:06 2006
From: singpolyma at gmail.com (Stephen Paul Weber)
Date: Mon Nov 27 04:32:09 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Custom Fields Microformat?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <00fc01c7118b$9519a280$0500a8c0@LittleGeek>
	
Message-ID: <6991f8e00611270432v3f2f89e0hc373518637b84e5d@mail.gmail.com>

> Since XOXO itself only defines nested lists (and sets) of items with
> arbitrary properties/values (with a certain fixed known set for compat with
> existing uses), there is no expectation that user/author defined properties
> themselves will interoperate.

Although if this were to be wanted in some use cases, an 'XOXO format'
could be defined.  I have suggested some possibilities at
 and
have considered the concept of extending uF with XOXO at

From ryan at ryancannon.com  Mon Nov 27 06:55:34 2006
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Mon Nov 27 06:56:00 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Implied hCard (was: Is class="vcard fn" illegal?)
In-Reply-To: <200611261931.kAQJVCL0011297@microformats.org>
References: <200611261931.kAQJVCL0011297@microformats.org>
Message-ID: 

It would seem that the rule still applies: ?ryan@example.com? would  
be both the FN and Nickname fields. Perhaps parsing could key on the  
protocol: mailto would imply an

EMAIL;TYPE=Internet

and http(s) would imply a URL. Any other protocols would not imply  
anything.

Should I add this to the wiki?

-- 
Ryan

http://RyanCannon.com



On Nov 26, 2006, at 2:31 PM, microformats-discuss- 
request@microformats.org wrote:

> In message , Ryan
> Cannon  writes
>
>> If a an element with class=vcard does not have any hCard class names,
>> imply the entire content as an fn field, and attempt to apply the
>> implied "n" optimization.
>>
>> Optionally, if the root element has @href, imply a class="url".
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> Ryan Cannon
>>
>> becomes
>>
>> BEGIN:VCARD
>> N:Cannon;Ryan;;;
>> FN:Ryan Cannon
>> URL:http\://www.perich.com
>> END:VCARD
>
> That seems like a good idea, so long as non-http hrefs (mailto:, tel:,
> etc.) are parsed correctly:
>
>         
>         Ryan Cannon
>         <\a>
>
> would be OK, but what about:
>
>         
>         ryan@example.com
>         <\a>
>
> ?
>
> How would existing parsers treat those examples? Would they simply
> ignore them?
>
> -- 
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:   www.no2id.net/>
>
>                 Free Our Data:  
>


From hober0 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 27 10:50:23 2006
From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor)
Date: Mon Nov 27 10:41:54 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Mailing list debate moved & new proposal
References: 
	
	<8ad71be30611021637l5452aa7rbb9816c697cf6c99@mail.gmail.com>
	<455BAB2B.11978.83E626@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<1bc4603e0611252008s6af33631n592662d21cedf1c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86ejrovi4w.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org>

> Well, you can already use Gmane to read this list (as Tantek pointed
> out to me), though there're no feeds available:
>
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general

Note that Gmane provides an RSS feed for the mailing list here:

http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
hober0@gmail.com

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Nov 27 13:28:39 2006
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Nov 27 13:33:44 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bug in rel-lint bookmarklet & Technorati
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
Message-ID: 

In message , Andy Mabbett
 writes

>>I've just been experimenting with or "rel-lint" bookmarklet, and have
>>found what I believe is a bug.
>>
>>It finds a tag in:
>>
>>        
>>         ryan@example.com
>>         <\a>

Here ryan@example.com is both the @href and the node value (assuming < 
\a> was intended to be ).

Peace,
Scott


From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 12:13:37 2006
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Thu Nov 30 12:13:40 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] Page range conclusion?
Message-ID: 

Hi, I can't tell from the ending of the most recent trail of emails
about the citation uf whether a consensus was reached about encoding
page values and ranges, or if everyone just got tired after 51 emails.

There was some evidence of research that I think ought to be put on
the citation-brainstorming page in the form of examples from the web
using each kind of page / page range encoding. It's easier to find it
for reference that way...

I'd like to keep this moving if possible, and remind people of the
danger of trying to get it perfect the first time around - note that
existing citation formats like bibtex and RIS are emphatically not
perfect and are still very useful. More than anything, we need a
working imperfect format so that tools can begin to grow, and we can
iteratively improve the format as neccessary.

Thanks,
-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 12:30:55 2006
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Thu Nov 30 12:31:06 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] url field
Message-ID: 

Based on the existence of a URL in the examples listed at the end of
this email, I propose modifying the working straw format at
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Brian.27s_Straw_format
to include a URL field, denoting the URL to a copy of the work
available online (often a PDF, but could be anything linkable).

I suggest that it could, but would not necessarily, be combined with a
field representing a unique identifier for the cited item, as for
instance in the case of a DOI URL.

I also suggest that in the case of identifiers like a DOI or ISBN
which can be represented as a parameter in a link to doi.org or some
other resolver, that the format encourage using a URL field for those
identifiers and not include separate fields for each such identifier.
In other words, I think that class="url uid"  is sufficient to encode
DOI/ISBN/etc., and we shouldn't add a separate DOI class, a separate
ISBN class, and so on.

For an example of how I think it might look, see
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#Citing_a_conference_publication

Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks,
-mike

Examples from the web with URL data:
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#CiteSeer_database_search_results
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#W3C_XHTML_Spec_Example
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#Google_Cache
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#Book
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#Journal_Articles
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#Historical_Sources
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#EPrints.org
http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#Citation_of_an_Online_Resource

This omits the cases where other identifiers like DOI and ISBN are
used, but that only adds to the relevant examples, if you buy my
argument about using URL for those.

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 13:53:07 2006
From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus)
Date: Thu Nov 30 13:53:11 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] url field
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

On 11/30/06, Michael McCracken  wrote:

> I also suggest that in the case of identifiers like a DOI or ISBN
> which can be represented as a parameter in a link to doi.org or some
> other resolver, that the format encourage using a URL field for those
> identifiers and not include separate fields for each such identifier.
> In other words, I think that class="url uid"  is sufficient to encode
> DOI/ISBN/etc., and we shouldn't add a separate DOI class, a separate
> ISBN class, and so on.

What about non-http URIs?

Bruce
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 15:48:53 2006
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Thu Nov 30 15:48:56 2006
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] url field
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
Message-ID: 

On 11/30/06, Bruce D'Arcus  wrote:
> On 11/30/06, Michael McCracken  wrote:
>
> > I also suggest that in the case of identifiers like a DOI or ISBN
> > which can be represented as a parameter in a link to doi.org or some
> > other resolver, that the format encourage using a URL field for those
> > identifiers and not include separate fields for each such identifier.
> > In other words, I think that class="url uid"  is sufficient to encode
> > DOI/ISBN/etc., and we shouldn't add a separate DOI class, a separate
> > ISBN class, and so on.
>
> What about non-http URIs?

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly.

I intended the URL field to represent the extremely common use of a
link on a web page that points to a copy of the linked work. So it
should (maybe even must?) provide the location of a resource, which a
non-http URI doesn't do, without extra context.

If you mean "why not call it URI?", then mainly because I wasn't aware
of any examples of URIs on the web that weren't also http URLs. I
didn't see any references to URIs such as URN:* in the examples-markup
page, except as parameters to an OpenURL http: URI.

So, I thought I'd call it URL with the understanding that people would
use it 80+% of the time as an http URL that links to a copy of the
cited work. Calling it URL takes no explanation for publishers, unlike
URI.

On the other hand, if you mean "then how should we mark up non-http
URIs?", I would say you can do it however you want, perhaps by using
an ID class (I've used class="uid" in the example I linked to), just
*don't* use class="url" because that means "a link to a copy of the
cited resource".

Also, since this just occurred to me, I see no reason why there can't
be multiple URL fields for one citation - this could cover multiple
versions, such as in the example of a cached copy of a cited web page
along with the original link:
Cached version as of Sept. 06
original link

Thanks,
-mike
-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/