From gazza at garyjones.co.uk Sun Oct 1 00:15:13 2006 From: gazza at garyjones.co.uk (Gazza) Date: Sun Oct 1 00:16:09 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <451F5015.1000908@lachy.id.au> References: <451E3F7A.50500@lachy.id.au> <6991f8e00609300653u1c3fb35aq97c4155d662da42d@mail.gmail.com> <451F5015.1000908@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <451F6B01.9060704@garyjones.co.uk> Good research. Lachlan Hunt mumbled the following on 01/10/2006 06:20: > *Age* > > Birth date: 1983-03-07 > Age: 23 (some sites just publish your age, not your actual birth date) > Star sign: Pisces >* Limitation: Represents the value of the date, not its purpose. > e.g. hListing has dtlisted and dtexpired for representing > listed and expired dates, I couldn't find anything > that represents a birth date. hcard can have a bday class: -- Regards, Gazza From costello at mitre.org Sun Oct 1 07:44:50 2006 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Sun Oct 1 07:42:44 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: <7b1d0c3f0609300759t280e8c77k9140fe1035d84b4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Folks, This community is awesome! Microformats are awesome! At the present time the creation of new microformats is centralized, to this list. And this community has an excellent process established for creating microformats. What happens when creating microformats becomes decentralized; that is, when communities go off and create their own new microformats? For example, one community might create a microformat for aquarium tanks. The "tank" microformat might be used in something like this:
...
A separate, independent community might create a microformat for artillery tanks. Their "tank" microformat might be used in something like this:
...
Alas, we have two tank microformats with totally different semantics. In general, as microformat creation becomes decentralized there will be a proliferation of microformats with identical names but differing semantics. Clearly this will be big trouble for microformat aggregator tools. This "microformat name collision" problem might lead to the suggestion to use namespaces for microformats. Thus, the aquarium community associates their microformat with this namespace: http://www.aquarium.org Now their microformat is used as such: ...
...
... And the artillery community uses their microformat like this: ...
...
... But using namespaces in microformats will trigger problems in other technologies, such as CSS. For example, suppose that there is a site-wide CSS document, which contains styling for the aquarium tank class, e.g., .aquarium:tank { ... } Suppose there are multiple developers at the site. One developer creates a page and uses the "aquarium" namespace prefix: ...
...
... Recall that with namespaces the prefix used is irrelevant. So, another developer also uses the aquarium tank microformat, but uses a different namespace prefix: ...
...
... Now the CSS document won't operate on the second developer's page. There are lots of problems lurking with decentralized creation of microformats. On the other hand, centralized control of the creation of microformats doesn't seem practical on a massively decentralized Web. As microformats become increasingly popular people will go off and create their own microformats (it's already happening). Centralized control of the creation of microformats is akin to the XML community mandating that all XML tags be created by a central clearinghouse. There are lots of really smart people on this list. There must be a solution. Can you think of a process for allowing a decentralized creation of microformats, without the ensuing chaos alluded to above? /Roger From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 08:37:02 2006 From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus) Date: Sun Oct 1 08:37:06 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: <7b1d0c3f0609300759t280e8c77k9140fe1035d84b4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/1/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Centralized control of the creation of microformats is akin to the XML > community mandating that all XML tags be created by a central > clearinghouse. Indeed. > There are lots of really smart people on this list. There must be a > solution. Can you think of a process for allowing a decentralized > creation of microformats, without the ensuing chaos alluded to above? This goes back to the suggestion that has come up on this list in the past (but which got shot down) that it'd make sense to have some cooperation between this community and the related RDF/A and embedded RDF efforts. I personally don't think you can have decentralized development that scales without two technical prerequisites: a clear and consistent model and namespaces. And without those two things, microformats are going to hit a wall. Bruce From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Sun Oct 1 08:45:23 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Sun Oct 1 08:45:38 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <451FE293.50809@lachy.id.au> Costello, Roger L. wrote: > What happens when creating microformats becomes decentralized; that is, > when communities go off and create their own new microformats? > > For example, one community might create a microformat for aquarium > tanks... > ... > A separate, independent community might create a microformat for > artillery tanks.... > >
> ... >
I think this illustrates the need to choose unambiguous terms where possible and, for these examples, classes like "aquarium" and "military" would be better choices. > Alas, we have two tank microformats with totally different semantics. > > This "microformat name collision" problem might lead to the suggestion > to use namespaces for microformats. We already have the profile attribute though it's not always used by authors. If such a collision occurred, it probably wouldn't be very likely that the both aquarium and and military format would be used on the same page. However, it is theoretically possible that two associated, yet conflicting formats may arise in the future. > Thus, the aquarium community associates their microformat with this > namespace: http://www.aquarium.org > Now their microformat is used as such: > > Use of xmlns is not appropriate for microformats because there is no concept of XML Namespaces in text/html, which is what most people use. >
The class attribute is not a QName, so that won't work even in XHTML. Besides, QNames have other problems associated with them, one of which you pointed out: > But using namespaces in microformats will trigger problems in other > technologies, such as CSS. (There are many other problems with QNames as well, though they're not really relevant to microformats, so I won't go into them now.) The namespace problem has been looked at by many others in the past. Some proposals I remember reading about, which haven't really taken off, include:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041110195640/http://protogenius.com/rel-schemas/draft-scheid-rel-schemas-00.htm Then there's the whole issue about namespaces being confusing for authors, which is claimed by some people I know. There are some, including people like Ian Hickson, who are quite vocal about this, particularly because it adds complexity for both authors and UAs. Currently, I think the best approach is for microformats to be designed with simple vendor prefixes, much like the way vendors can experement with CSS. For example, a marine biology organisation may develop their aquarium format and give each property a "aq-" prefix, at least for the root class name. Similarly, a military organisation may use a "mil-" prefix. e.g.
...
Even microformats.org has adopted a kind of pseudo-vendor-prefix. Many of them begin with "h" (like hResume, hListing, hReview, etc.) or "v" (hCard: "vcard", hCalendar: "vcalendar") This approach solves the CSS problem you mentioned earlier, because different authors won't be using different prefixes for the same format. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From chris.messina at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 10:05:01 2006 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sun Oct 1 10:05:10 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <451F5015.1000908@lachy.id.au> References: <451E3F7A.50500@lachy.id.au> <6991f8e00609300653u1c3fb35aq97c4155d662da42d@mail.gmail.com> <451F5015.1000908@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0610011005u53d18795kbb5679f902d6f1bd@mail.gmail.com> I would challenge you to follow the guideline to solve a specific problem... I think that there's certainly a case for an hProfile microformat (I think I probably suggested it at some point... heh) but there is a lot that can be covered with existing formats -- that are micro. Perhaps there is a very *specific* part of the profile (or many parts) that can be extracted and codified into a micropattern? It would also be good to look at John Allsop's hTagcloud research as a model for representing what's already being done elsewhere...: http://microformatique.com/?page_id=34 Chris On 10/1/06, Lachlan Hunt wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > > In message > > <6991f8e00609300653u1c3fb35aq97c4155d662da42d@mail.gmail.com>, Stephen > > Paul Weber writes > > > >>> publishing personal profiles to help you meet others > > > >> Sounds like hCard... possibly with a few new fields. > > > > Or a form of hListing. > > Yeah, I'd agree it's also related to hListing, but hListing seems to be > more well suited to products and services. Although, it does mention > personals as one of the use cases, it seems quite generic by design and > there's a whole heap of personal information that's still missing from > hListing and other formats. > > Let me illustrate with an example profile that I've pieced together from > various sites (filled in with made up info), then describe how it could > be marked up with existing formats and point out the limitations. > > > *Name and Contact Details* > > Given name: John > Family name: Doe > Preferred name: Jane Doe > Photos: (images) > Address, location, and/or other contact details... > > * This section could be marked up as using the hListing lister and > item info properties. > * All of this information can be marked up with hCard > * No known limitations. > > > *Age* > > Birth date: 1983-03-07 > Age: 23 (some sites just publish your age, not your actual birth date) > Star sign: Pisces > > * Can use for marking up the date > * Limitation: Represents the value of the date, not its purpose. > e.g. hListing has dtlisted and dtexpired for representing > listed and expired dates, I couldn't find anything > that represents a birth date. > > * Limitation: couldn't find any existing format for age > > * Could use rel-tag for star sign > * Limiation: how do you identify that this tag represents a star sign? > (see rel-tag limitations below) > - Maybe this component would be best solved with an astrology > format, designed for astrologists to publish horoscopes and then > incorporated into this. > > > *Physical Attributes* > > Gender (biological): Male > Gender (appearance or surgical): Female > Build: Obese > Eye colour: Blue > Hair colour: Black > > Height: 1.77m or 5'10" > Weight: 139kg > > * Most of these could use rel-tag > * Limitation: How do you identify specifically what each tag > represents? (see rel-tag limitations below) > * Limitation: I couldn't find a way to markup measurements/distances > for height and weight. > * Limitation: Even with a measurements format how do you identify that > it specifically represents the persons height and weight? > > *Cultural Background* > > Culture: None > Ethnicity: White > Nationaliaty: Australian > Religion: Athiest > > * All of these could use rel-tag > * Limitation: (see rel-tag limitations below) > > *Personal Habbits* > Drinking: Alcoholic > Smoking: Chain-smoker > Diet: Vegan > > * All of these could use rel-tag > * Limitation: (see rel-tag limitations below) > > *Relationship/Life* > > Marital status: Single > Have children: No childred > Want children: Want 2-3 children > Pets: dog, fish > > * These could use rel-tag > * Limitation: (see rel-tag limitations below) > > > *Professional* > Occupation, Education, etc. > > * All of these could use hResume > * No known limitations > > > *Descriptions* > > Summary > Hobbies, music, sport, reading, general interests, etc. > > * This section could make use of the hListing summary, > description and item tags properties. > > > *General Markup* > > This same type of profile markup can be used to describe both yourself > and your ideal partner. Perhaps you could use the hListing listing > action "meet" for describing your personal profile and "wanted" for the > profile of your ideal partner. > > Having the ability to markup 2 (or more) seperate profiles like that > handles the additional information that is usually requested, about what > type of relationship your looking for (short-term (fling, > one-night-stand), long-term (marriage), friendship, pen-pal, etc.), > partners gender, ideal physical appearance, background, etc. > > > *Rel-tag Limitations* > > The recurring problem with the use of rel-tag in most of these is that > we're trying to represent name:value pairs, whereas rel-tag only really > represents the value. > > e.g. > > That doesn't indicate whether it represents hair colour, eye colour, > favourite colour or something else entirely. > > -- > Lachlan Hunt > http://lachy.id.au/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Sun Oct 1 10:27:24 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Sun Oct 1 10:29:17 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0610011005u53d18795kbb5679f902d6f1bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <451E3F7A.50500@lachy.id.au> <6991f8e00609300653u1c3fb35aq97c4155d662da42d@mail.gmail.com> <451F5015.1000908@lachy.id.au> <1bc4603e0610011005u53d18795kbb5679f902d6f1bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <451FFA7C.9020200@lachy.id.au> Chris Messina wrote: > I would challenge you to follow the guideline to solve a specific > problem... I thought that's what I was doing. Rather than proposing a new format straight away, I presented a use case with some example data and was trying to look at what can and can't be done with existing formats, and the limitations with them. > I think that there's certainly a case for an hProfile > microformat (I think I probably suggested it at some point... heh) but > there is a lot that can be covered with existing formats Exactly! Hence, the discussion is involving hCard, hResume, rel-tag, etc. > Perhaps there is a very *specific* part of the profile (or many parts) > that can be extracted and codified into a micropattern? Yes, that's what I was trying to do. By looking at what can be done already that fits the use case, we can see what's missing and fill in the gaps, which will hopefully be quite small. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From scott at randomchaos.com Sun Oct 1 10:53:56 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sun Oct 1 10:54:10 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> On Sep 29, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > I don't think Lorenzo is talking of: *currency amount per item/ > product* as your title and example imply (that, I agree, is a non- > starter) > > but of *currency amount per unit of measurement* (which is widely > used - see for instance: http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/, although > not in the context of a house/product/job in which case the unit is > obvious). > > In "$25 per barrel" or in "25 ($/bbl)", I think you would agree > that knowing that the barrel is the unit of measurement is very > significant, and even though knowing that "$" means USD dollars, > overlooking that it is a price per barrel would lead to a big mistake. I think "$" is a unit of measuring currency, and "barrel" is a unit of measuring oil, which in this case is the product the currency references. Though used together here, these are two distinct problems that deserve separate microformats, one for currency and another for products (i.e. hListing). Measurement of currency can be useful without considering measurement of products of purchase. We should start with describing the simplest form of useful data. Peace, Scott From scott at randomchaos.com Sun Oct 1 10:56:00 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sun Oct 1 10:56:09 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2006, at 9:44 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > What happens when creating microformats becomes decentralized; that > is, > when communities go off and create their own new microformats? I'd guess what happens is it doesn't work. By analogy, what happens when communities go off and create their own dictionaries? I'm not sure, but I suspect they end up with a dictionary that's not very descriptive of how people actually use language. > For example, one community might create a microformat for aquarium > tanks. The "tank" microformat might be used in something like this: > >
> ... >
> > A separate, independent community might create a microformat for > artillery tanks. Their "tank" microformat might be used in something > like this: > >
> ... >
> > Alas, we have two tank microformats with totally different semantics. While we're not defining microformats for such specific data currently, the problem of defining exactly what is meant by given markup is already solved by profile URIs: > In general, as microformat creation becomes decentralized there > will be > a proliferation of microformats with identical names but differing > semantics. Clearly this will be big trouble for microformat > aggregator > tools. This isn't clear to me at all. Why will microformat creation become decentralized? Why do we need a proliferation of microformats? Why wouldn't we use specific names (e.g. class="artillery-tank") to prevent overlap from every becoming a real problem? Peace, Scott From timber at lava.net Sun Oct 1 10:57:43 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Sun Oct 1 10:57:47 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1B32B2-E6F8-49FE-8FA0-8579202065FA@lava.net> On Oct 1, 2006, at 7:56 AM, Scott Reynen wrote: > I'd guess what happens is it doesn't work. By analogy, what happens > when communities go off and create their own dictionaries? http://catb.org/jargon/ -Colin From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sun Oct 1 12:18:24 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sun Oct 1 12:19:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: <7b1d0c3f0609300759t280e8c77k9140fe1035d84b4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3uRHCsBASBIFFw66@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , "Costello, Roger L." writes >For example, one community might create a microformat for aquarium >tanks. The "tank" microformat might be used in something like this: > >
> ... >
> >A separate, independent community might create a microformat for >artillery tanks. Their "tank" microformat might be used in something >like this: > >
What we need is a canonical list of class names used in uFs. Oh! Look! we have one already: ;-) -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 12:36:45 2006 From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus) Date: Sun Oct 1 12:36:47 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: <451FE293.50809@lachy.id.au> References: <451FE293.50809@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: On the namespace issue, there's this: ... though I know nothihng about it really. Bruce From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sun Oct 1 13:24:16 2006 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sun Oct 1 13:24:24 2006 Subject: semantic XHTML and microformats (was Re: [uf-discuss] Automatic conversion of XML to microformat and vice versa; recommendation for handling XML attributes?) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20608270850u4b1fc18dl12b697d6e7c5d726@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: These are all good recommendations. There are a couple of higher level things from Roger's original email that I wanted to clear up though. Note that the XOXO conversion that Brian and David are talking about will convert *any* XML into XOXO which is *a* microformat, rather than just *an* XML *document* to *a* microformat. That being said, you can always just use semantic (X)HTML. http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-xhtml Note that microformats use semantic XHTML, but not all use of semantic XHTML are microformats. Web designers and authors are using semantic XHTML everyday without using microformats, and that's perfectly fine. They are not trying to create standards and interoperably/automatically exchange data with each other. They are simply expressing the semantics of their documents. Whereas microformats follow a specific process and are intended to provide a way for publishers worldwide to easily interoperably exchange simple bits of data. http://microformats.org/wiki/process This distinction between "semantic XHTML" and "microformats" is very important to understand and is often confused - I've even seen W3C staff themselves call microformats "just using good class names", which is incorrect. (Using good class names is simply one of the practices of semantic XHTML). Thanks, Tantek On 8/27/06 8:50 AM, "David Janes" wrote: > And in particular, have a look at XOXO Rest Datatypes [1]. There's > probably more work that could be done here to model typed values (i.e. > "12000 meters") amongst other things; maybe you're the right person > ;-) > > Regards, etc... > David > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/datatypes > > On 8/27/06, Brian Suda wrote: >> On 8/27/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: >> >>> Microformat newbie here, so please bear with me if my questions are >>> misguided. >> >> --- welcome Roger. >> >> >>> Question #1 >>> Do you agree with using
for XML leaf nodes? If not, do you >>> recommend something else? >> >> while this might work in your case, trouble appears when you have >> attibutes on those Element... how would you encode those? >> >> The XOXO microformat (http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo) allows for >> this sort of encoding. You could tweak it slighty so you get class >> attribute values which you could then style. XOXO uses OL lists, with >> DL lists for attributes and should solve your problems, i would >> suggest reading-up on that and if there are still problems let us >> know. >> >> There are also several implementations of how to internalize a XOXO >> list into a PHP, Python,Ruby,etc. array. Sort of an HTML JSON. >> >> -brian >> >> -- >> brian suda >> http://suda.co.uk >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sun Oct 1 14:14:01 2006 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sun Oct 1 14:14:06 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/1/06 7:44 AM, "Costello, Roger L." wrote: > Hi Folks, > > This community is awesome! Microformats are awesome! Thanks much Roger! > At the present time the creation of new microformats is centralized, to > this list. Or certainly to microformats.org. Many folks prefer different communication channels so sometimes more is discussed on IRC than the mailing list for example. It is possible (though I haven't seen it happen yet), that a microformat could be created simply through use of IRC, wiki and process, but unlikely, as it is more likely that one or more participants will email the list at some point, at least to announce the interest in the microformat and request help with research. > And this community has an excellent process established for > creating microformats. Thanks Roger. It has certainly been a bit of a learning experience, and improved along the way thanks to the participation of the community. > What happens when creating microformats becomes decentralized; IMHO, this akin to asking what happens when Wikipedia becomes decentralized? > that is, > when communities go off and create their own new microformats? What Scott said: > On 10/1/06 10:56 AM, "Scott Reynen" wrote: > >> I'd guess what happens is it doesn't work. By analogy, what happens >> when communities go off and create their own dictionaries? I'm not >> sure, but I suspect they end up with a dictionary that's not very >> descriptive of how people actually use language. I would expect that if other communities did go off an specify their own semantic class names, even with profiles, that it might get some uptake, but not much. I expect that *this* community would bring any such effort to the attention of the list and then either there is enough interest / universal / practical applicability (80) or there isn't (20). If there is, anyone here could walk an effort through the microformats process. > For example, one community might create a microformat for aquarium > tanks. The "tank" microformat might be used in something like this: > >
> ... >
Unlikely. What is more likely is that such a community could simply use a generic "product" microformat. There have already been quite a few discussions here about the research towards creating a product microformat. > A separate, independent community might create a microformat for > artillery tanks. Their "tank" microformat might be used in something > like this: > >
> ... >
Again, unlikely. Unfortunately this is is a theoretical example, and as such, would not even be worth the effort to document research toward creation as a microformat. One of the reason the practical and research requirements/steps are in the process are precisely to avoid this kind of theoretical proposal or even discussion. > In general, as microformat creation becomes decentralized We can worry about it when Wikipedia becomes decentralized. Scott answered this as well. In addition, profiles address this for folks that want to create their own semantic XHTML class names and provide specific well defined semantics. > This "microformat name collision" problem might lead to the suggestion > to use namespaces for microformats. Already suggested and rejected. Profiles solve this problem without namespaces. http://gmpg.org/xmdp/ > But using namespaces in microformats will trigger problems in other > technologies, such as CSS. Actually - you just explained why namespaces have failed on the Web. > There are lots of problems lurking with decentralized creation of > microformats. Which is why it is unlikely to happen, thus we should not be worried about it. > On the other hand, centralized control of the creation of microformats > doesn't seem practical on a massively decentralized Web. A centralized Wikipedia seems to be working reasonably well. > As > microformats become increasingly popular people will go off and create > their own microformats (it's already happening). They are creating their own sets of semantic class names and incorrectly labeling them as microformats. They are not creating microformats. > Centralized control of the creation of microformats is akin to the XML > community mandating that all XML tags be created by a central > clearinghouse. XML was essentially designed for babel - for decentralized, re-invented, creation of tags which would result in an inevitable proliferation of non-interoperable formats, and that is exactly what has happened with *very* few exceptions that you can count on one cartoon hand (XHTML, RSS, Atom). > There are lots of really smart people on this list. There must be a > solution. Or, perhaps there is no problem. IMHO Roger, this is unlikely enough to be a problem that we can ignore this possibility and focus on immediate practical problems instead. It is a matter of prioritization. > Can you think of a process for allowing a decentralized > creation of microformats, without the ensuing chaos alluded to above? Given that decentralized microformats would cause problems, why would we bother spending any time enabling them by creating a process for them? Tantek From king.ml at mobovivo.com Sun Oct 1 14:15:15 2006 From: king.ml at mobovivo.com (King Chung Huang) Date: Sun Oct 1 14:15:19 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Use of hReview for TV episode information Message-ID: <3FB311BA-F414-4198-9629-D05F1BEE9586@mobovivo.com> Hi, I'm currently in the process of designing an online video store and I've been looking at incorporating microformats into some of the new markup. Below is a snippet of code that describes a TV episode with some extra structural elements and class attributes to support hReview.

WildFiles, Season 1

The Frog Who Would Be Prince

Growing up can be frustrating when you want to hop right from being a kid to a grownup. The life stages of wood frogs help Lucy put her own age in perspective.

★★★★☆
Review Date
Oct. 1, 2006
Review Author
MoboVivo
Item Type
product
hReview Version
0.3
Based on this, I had a few questions. 1) Is this an appropriate use of hReview? 2) Is there a way to include the program/season name (eg: "WildFiles, Season 1") as part of the item, or is that even necessary? 3) There's a "photo" subproperty as part of the item info, but no "video" subproperty. Is there a way to describe the URL to a video preview? Thanks, King Chung Huang www.mobovivo.com From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sun Oct 1 14:24:39 2006 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sun Oct 1 14:24:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/1/06 8:37 AM, "Bruce D'Arcus" wrote: > On 10/1/06, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > >> There are lots of really smart people on this list. There must be a >> solution. Can you think of a process for allowing a decentralized >> creation of microformats, without the ensuing chaos alluded to above? > > This goes back to the suggestion that has come up on this list in the > past (but which got shot down) that it'd make sense to have some > cooperation between this community and the related RDF/A and embedded > RDF efforts. Semantic XHTML has been widely adopted by the web design and development community. Microformats simply builds upon that established practice that predates microformats. Both RDF/A nor embedded RDF are still science projects. If the web design community shows a critical mass interest in them, then we can re-evaluate them. Until them, both such efforts are a waste of our time, or to put it plain and simply, much lower priority than many more practical tasks and efforts that we have in front of us. http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do > I personally don't think you can have decentralized development that > scales without two technical prerequisites: a clear and consistent > model and namespaces. We should be documenting and addressing anything that is not clear nor consistent, whenever you see such issues, please raise them, briefly here, and perhaps on the *-issues page for the respective microformat(s). Namespaces however are nothing more than an enabler of silos. They cause *far* more problems (especially socially) than they solve. > And without those two things, microformats are > going to hit a wall. Then let us find that wall. I'm not afraid of a problem we don't have. In other ways, this is also a non-problem. As was discussed very early in the history of microformats, if there are hundreds of microformats, we've actually failed. One of the goals of microformats is to keep the total number down to a minimum. Many microformats proposals/efforts themselves will fail. A relatively small core number of microformats that are universally/globally applicable will succeed. The market will determine which are which. The total set may morph over time, but at some point we will see a tapering off of the creation of new widely applicable microformats, and that's a good thing. The obvious question that will come up is what then? And to that I'll only say we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Until then, everybody has a choice of two paths. Don't worry about it and work on solving immediate practical problems, OR, worry about it, and work on solving theoretical meta-format problems (the so-called boiling the ocean). There are plenty of folks working on the latter. This community is focusing on the former. Thanks, Tantek From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sun Oct 1 14:38:56 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sun Oct 1 14:42:03 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: species In-Reply-To: <7oVkDRHtxWHFFwTC@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <01C72403-C1A4-4D1B-9A0C-8F9EA2240CE4@randomchaos.com> <7oVkDRHtxWHFFwTC@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <7oVkDRHtxWHFFwTC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett writes >In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > >>In message , Tantek ?elik >> writes >> >>>Andy, one thing that might help for the species discussion is if you >>>could cite URLs to a site or sites with millions (or even thousands) of >>>clearly obvious uses of "species" terminology >> >>Are you (and everyone) content that we have sufficient such examples, >>now? >> >> > >?? ?? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sun Oct 1 14:44:58 2006 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sun Oct 1 14:45:03 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <451FFA7C.9020200@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: On 10/1/06 10:27 AM, "Lachlan Hunt" wrote: > Chris Messina wrote: >> I would challenge you to follow the guideline to solve a specific >> problem... > > I thought that's what I was doing. Rather than proposing a new format > straight away, I presented a use case with some example data and was > trying to look at what can and can't be done with existing formats, and > the limitations with them. Lachlan - certainly you've done some very good work there. The key distinction with microformats is to make sure that *all* your example data is based on data actually found on the Web *with* specific URLs to where the data can be retrieved and analyzed by anyone. We need this in order to prune away theoretical example data from actual data in use on the Web. This is the only objective manner I have found to avoid the inevitable (but well-intentioned) theoretical examples that tend to drive most other standards efforts. You may wish to take a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-examples and contribute to the work there. Read http://microformats.org/wiki/examples first to get a good understanding of how to write up an effective examples page. >> I think that there's certainly a case for an hProfile >> microformat (I think I probably suggested it at some point... heh) Yes, Chris mentioned it and did some of the work on the wiki a while ago like start the aforementioned profile-examples page. >> but >> there is a lot that can be covered with existing formats > > Exactly! Hence, the discussion is involving hCard, hResume, rel-tag, etc. I really like what you did with that Lachlan, and I think that analysis will make it possible to focus on what really does need to be added, rather than starting from scratch. >> Perhaps there is a very *specific* part of the profile (or many parts) >> that can be extracted and codified into a micropattern? > > Yes, that's what I was trying to do. By looking at what can be done > already that fits the use case, we can see what's missing and fill in > the gaps, which will hopefully be quite small. Precisely. In addition, I do suggest more research. E.g. you mentioned supposed rel-tag limitations, giving the example of "brown": > The recurring problem with the use of rel-tag in most of these is that > we're trying to represent name:value pairs, whereas rel-tag only really > represents the value. > > e.g. > > That doesn't indicate whether it represents hair colour, eye colour, > favourite colour or something else entirely. The participants of at least one "social networking" site (consumating.com) have already solved this problem, WITHOUT name/value pairs with tags like: brown_hair blue_eyes So far I've yet to see much in the "profile" space that can't be covered nearly completely with existing or in-progress microformats, mostly tags. If there is a need to provide more detail than just tags, there are other microformats in progress: e.g. for "books I like", that seems perfect for a citation microformat. Or perhaps for books, movies, music etc., a "product" microformat which has been often discussed. In short, stick with hCard + tags for now. They easily solve 80% of the problem (maybe even 90%), and for the remaining 10-20%, define *those* specific problems and let's see what other existing microformats can be used. Thanks, Tantek From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 15:24:25 2006 From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus) Date: Sun Oct 1 15:24:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/1/06, Tantek ?elik wrote: [...] > > And without those two things, microformats are > > going to hit a wall. > > Then let us find that wall. I'm not afraid of a problem we don't have. That's a reasonable perspective. ... > Until then, everybody has a choice of two paths. Don't worry about it and > work on solving immediate practical problems, OR, worry about it, and work > on solving theoretical meta-format problems (the so-called boiling the > ocean). There are plenty of folks working on the latter. This community is > focusing on the former. That's a bit of a false choice. There are good practical reasons to want an extensible model that allows decentralized development. Not a choice between theory and practice; maybe more about scope of concerns. I'm content to not worry about it now, but I do think that wall may be around the bend;-) Bruce From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sun Oct 1 16:47:38 2006 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sun Oct 1 16:47:42 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] The trouble with titles (in hAtom) In-Reply-To: <83cf34410609281606p64dd96cbkdd65893ff516deab@mail.gmail.com> References: <83cf34410609281606p64dd96cbkdd65893ff516deab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20610011647r14bb6e20r1c60993ee91efc16@mail.gmail.com> Just back from a mini-vacation. I'll have a look tomorrow at the AUMFP. Regards, etc... On 9/28/06, Ian McKellar wrote: > Hi, > > I'm playing with writing a generic microformat parser that'll be able > to parse any format, given some minimal definition. I started with geo > (piece of cake) and then went on to hAtom (since I've been playing > with it a little lately. I got stuck on how to express the fallback > rules for entry title: > > if the Entry Title is missing, use > > * the first element in the Entry, or > * the of the page, if there is no enclosing Feed element, or > * assume it is the empty string > > so Tantek suggested I check out what other implementations out there do. > > I threw a really minimal hAtom document at hatom2atom & the AUMFP: > <html> > <head> > <title>I should be the title > > >

> I'm the start of the entry. > I'm not the title > I'm the rest of the entry. >

> > > > >From my reading of the hAtom spec this page represents an hatom feed > with no title and one entry with the title "I should be the title" and > the content "I'm the start of the entry. I'm the rest of the entry." > > hatom2atom attached the title to the feed not the entry, and the AUMFP > didn't find the title at all. > > So the point of the email is twofold - firstly, these tools probably > need to be updated, and secondly, I don't really understand where the > current behaviour came from - is it the behaviour we want? > > Ian > > -- > Ian McKellar > ianloic on [flickr | aim | yahoo | skype] > ian@mckellar.org on [email | jabber | msn] > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Sun Oct 1 17:34:04 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Sun Oct 1 17:34:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45205E7C.5000201@lachy.id.au> Tantek ?elik wrote: > The key distinction with microformats is to make sure that *all* your > example data is based on data actually found on the Web *with* specific URLs > to where the data can be retrieved and analyzed by anyone. Most of the example fields I listed were based on those found primarily on LavaLife and RSVP profile pages. Other similar sites include match.com and AdultMatchMaker The actual personal data values I used, however, was just made up for privacy reasons. http://lavalife.com.au/ http://www.rsvp.com.au/ http://match.com.au/ http://adultmatchmaker.com.au/ (Unfortunately, on some of those sites, you need to become a member before you can see any profiles.) > You may wish to take a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-examples > and contribute to the work there. I looked for existing work on profiles, but that one wasn't listed on the wiki Main_Page with all the others, so I didn't find it. > In addition, I do suggest more research. > > E.g. you mentioned supposed rel-tag limitations, giving the example of > "brown": > >> The recurring problem with the use of rel-tag in most of these is that >> we're trying to represent name:value pairs, whereas rel-tag only really >> represents the value. >> >> e.g. >> >> That doesn't indicate whether it represents hair colour, eye colour, >> favourite colour or something else entirely. > > The participants of at least one "social networking" site (consumating.com) > have already solved this problem, WITHOUT name/value pairs with tags like: > > brown_hair > blue_eyes I thought of that, but one of the problems is that some sites may tag them like that, others may use "brown_(Hair_Colour)", "Brunette", "cheveux bruns" (French for brown hair, according to babelfish) or some other variation. I guess that's an issue with tagging in general, where you get people coming up with dozens of different tags to represent exactly the same concept. There are advantages to that type of tagging in some cases. But say, for example, you were using a personals search engine looking for brunettes, a search engine should theoretically list people that have used either of those tags. Regarding the name:value pairs issue, there are lots of cases where it's useful to markup this kind of structure and HTML has several different structures available, including ,
, or even (for hidden data). Maybe we need some kind of design patterns describing these and when to choose which method? -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Sun Oct 1 17:43:45 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Sun Oct 1 17:43:57 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: <451FE293.50809@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <452060C1.9010909@lachy.id.au> Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On the namespace issue, there's this: > > > > ... though I know nothihng about it really. That only works with langagues that actually support namespaces. That's true for real XHTML and other XML languages, but it isn't true for anything served as text/html (even if the document claims to be XHTML by using an XHTML DOCTYPE), like the vast majority of web pages. Additionally, it doesn't work with QNames (i.e. attribute values with namespaces), as there is (currently) no attribute selector that supports them for the values. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From gl at brixlogic.com Sun Oct 1 18:36:50 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Sun Oct 1 18:37:05 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <45206D32.4020202@brixlogic.com> Scott, My feeling is that if we must start with the simplest form of useful data and pave the cow paths, then "price" in hListing is good enough for me, and there is no need to pave that "currency" path for now, or even discuss it, at least not on this discussion list: * Google says that the "price" classname is the 40th most popular class name on the Web: http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/classes.html. You can't beat that. * There seems to be very few cows on the "currency" path today: after hours of research, the only example I've found on the Web that disambiguates the "$" with a or and adhoc class name is the MacAfee example: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples#McAfee.C2.A0.28http:.2F.2Fus.mcafee.com.2Froot.2Fpackage.asp.3Fpkgid.3D100.29.None of the top online vendors (Dell, Amazon, Walmart, Staples, etc.) care about disambiguating currencies in price. * Focusing on disambiguating only the currency can only be useful to me for conversion, and Greasemonkey scripts and other browser plugins for currency conversion seem to work ok most of the time, using other clues to disambiguate, for instance the domain name ".ca" to disambiguate the "$" sign. Once we found more real examples, we can resume discussions here on this subject. Let me know what you think. Guillaume Scott Reynen wrote: > On Sep 29, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > >> I don't think Lorenzo is talking of: *currency amount per item/ >> product* as your title and example imply (that, I agree, is a non- >> starter) >> >> but of *currency amount per unit of measurement* (which is widely >> used - see for instance: http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/, although >> not in the context of a house/product/job in which case the unit is >> obvious). >> >> In "$25 per barrel" or in "25 ($/bbl)", I think you would agree that >> knowing that the barrel is the unit of measurement is very >> significant, and even though knowing that "$" means USD dollars, >> overlooking that it is a price per barrel would lead to a big mistake. > > > I think "$" is a unit of measuring currency, and "barrel" is a unit > of measuring oil, which in this case is the product the currency > references. Though used together here, these are two distinct > problems that deserve separate microformats, one for currency and > another for products (i.e. hListing). Measurement of currency can be > useful without considering measurement of products of purchase. We > should start with describing the simplest form of useful data. > > Peace, > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > From ramsey.pat at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 19:35:24 2006 From: ramsey.pat at gmail.com (Pat Ramsey) Date: Sun Oct 1 19:35:26 2006 Subject: semantic XHTML and microformats (was Re: [uf-discuss] Automatic conversion of XML to microformat and vice versa; recommendation for handling XML attributes?) In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20608270850u4b1fc18dl12b697d6e7c5d726@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <83a2ad2f0610011935y3774ad8dn96292458800ace4d@mail.gmail.com> Tantek, your clarification is something that might be a good thing to have written up on the microformats web site, the wiki, etc. It's concise and makes a good "bullet point" to keep in mind when discussing/evangelizing microformats to others who might not be quite in step with the rest of us. Pat On 10/1/06, Tantek ?elik wrote: > These are all good recommendations. > > There are a couple of higher level things from Roger's original email that I > wanted to clear up though. > > Note that the XOXO conversion that Brian and David are talking about will > convert *any* XML into XOXO which is *a* microformat, rather than just *an* > XML *document* to *a* microformat. > > That being said, you can always just use semantic (X)HTML. > > http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-xhtml > > Note that microformats use semantic XHTML, but not all use of semantic XHTML > are microformats. > > Web designers and authors are using semantic XHTML everyday without using > microformats, and that's perfectly fine. They are not trying to create > standards and interoperably/automatically exchange data with each other. > They are simply expressing the semantics of their documents. > > Whereas microformats follow a specific process and are intended to provide a > way for publishers worldwide to easily interoperably exchange simple bits of > data. > > http://microformats.org/wiki/process > > This distinction between "semantic XHTML" and "microformats" is very > important to understand and is often confused - I've even seen W3C staff > themselves call microformats "just using good class names", which is > incorrect. (Using good class names is simply one of the practices of > semantic XHTML). > > Thanks, > > Tantek -- Pat Ramsey ramsey.pat@gmail.com http://www.southwestern.edu/~ramseyp From karl at w3.org Sun Oct 1 20:03:06 2006 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Sun Oct 1 20:03:20 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Le 30 sept. 06 ? 21:33, Bruce D'Arcus a ?crit : > Does anyone know of any prior art that might be used to contest > this patent? > > > >> From what I can tell, Apple is trying to patent the ability to > copy-and-paste metadata to the clipboard, which would I think have far > reacing impacts (doesn't stuff like LiveClipboard cover this ground?). August 2000, Dan Connolly, Javascript Bookmarklet http://www.w3.org/2000/08/eb58 -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sun Oct 1 20:10:57 2006 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sun Oct 1 20:11:02 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <45205E7C.5000201@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: On 10/1/06 5:34 PM, "Lachlan Hunt" wrote: > Tantek ?elik wrote: >> The key distinction with microformats is to make sure that *all* your >> example data is based on data actually found on the Web *with* specific URLs >> to where the data can be retrieved and analyzed by anyone. > > Most of the example fields I listed were based on those found primarily > on LavaLife and RSVP profile pages. Other similar sites include > match.com and AdultMatchMaker The actual personal data values I used, > however, was just made up for privacy reasons. > > http://lavalife.com.au/ > http://www.rsvp.com.au/ > http://match.com.au/ > http://adultmatchmaker.com.au/ It would be a good start to at least add those URLs as sources for profile information to the profile-examples page. > (Unfortunately, on some of those sites, you need to become a member > before you can see any profiles.) The more closed the system, the less the likelihood that they will bother to adopt a microformat, thus the less useful such a system is as a "real world" example to use for modeling. I recommend finding some sites where you don't have to become a member before seeing any profiles. >> In addition, I do suggest more research. >> >> E.g. you mentioned supposed rel-tag limitations, giving the example of >> "brown": >> >>> The recurring problem with the use of rel-tag in most of these is that >>> we're trying to represent name:value pairs, whereas rel-tag only really >>> represents the value. >>> >>> e.g. >>> >>> That doesn't indicate whether it represents hair colour, eye colour, >>> favourite colour or something else entirely. >> >> The participants of at least one "social networking" site (consumating.com) >> have already solved this problem, WITHOUT name/value pairs with tags like: >> >> brown_hair >> blue_eyes > > I thought of that, but one of the problems is that some sites may tag > them like that, others may use "brown_(Hair_Colour)", "Brunette", > "cheveux bruns" (French for brown hair, according to babelfish) or some > other variation. You are talking theoretically "some sites *may* tag them like that..." I am talking practically. The tags I gave above are *actual* tags used by the community of consumating.com - they were not decided by the "site" - they were adopted by the community that inhabits that site. Big difference. It is irrelevant what some sites "may" do. What is relevant is what sites *actually* do. Do you have any other examples? > I guess that's an issue with tagging in general, where > you get people coming up with dozens of different tags to represent > exactly the same concept. Actually it's not. With folksonomies, it has been demonstrated over and over again, that communities tend to converge on tags to mean things. Sure there are some redundancies but the community typically ends up organically picking a winner and using it. This has been seen on the centralized communities of delcious, Flickr, and even with decentralized blog post tags that Technorati indexes. > There are advantages to that type of tagging in some cases. But say, > for example, you were using a personals search engine looking for > brunettes, a search engine should theoretically list people that have > used either of those tags. Even before personals search engines, there were printed personals, and "tagging" conventions evolved there for people to quickly/accurately describe attributes and wants. You don't need to presolve most of these problems with a-priori taxonomies/ontologies - the authors of the data often solve them themselves. > Regarding the name:value pairs issue, there are lots of cases where it's > useful to markup this kind of structure and HTML has several different > structures available, including
,
, or even content=""> (for hidden data). Maybe we need some kind of design > patterns describing these and when to choose which method? Generic name value pairs are best marked up with
s. See XOXO for lists etc. in combination with name value pairs. http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo is pretty much dead. Thanks, Tantek From ian at mckellar.org Sun Oct 1 20:45:42 2006 From: ian at mckellar.org (Ian McKellar) Date: Sun Oct 1 20:45:45 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art? In-Reply-To: References: <1bc4603e0609300737j341f0672x2927507eca0cd6b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <83cf34410610012045j6d2faef5u499bb1b3d43d8d6@mail.gmail.com> On 9/30/06, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On 9/30/06, Chris Messina wrote: > > BlogAssist (http://www.dejal.com/blogassist/) does something > > similar... and in fact, I had designed Flock's quotation system to > > work this way, using the
tag/attribute combo to > > retain the original data's source. > > Worth noting the patent application was filed in March of 2005. A lot > of stuff I've seen publicly comes after that. I'm pretty sure our metadata aware clipboard (in flock) was more like June 2005. Ian -- Ian McKellar ianloic on [flickr | aim | yahoo | skype] ian@mckellar.org on [email | jabber | msn] From supercanadian at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 20:57:02 2006 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Sun Oct 1 20:57:04 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84ce626f0610012057h170d72bbte93ba17417d66227@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Bruce, Aren't there old X11 applications that used to copy-and-paste meta data too? I think I remember using old SGI workstations in University that copied-and-pasted text with bolding and italicizing intact. See ya On 9/30/06, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > Does anyone know of any prior art that might be used to contest this patent? > > > > >From what I can tell, Apple is trying to patent the ability to > copy-and-paste metadata to the clipboard, which would I think have far > reacing impacts (doesn't stuff like LiveClipboard cover this ground?). > > Bruce -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Make Television http://maketelevision.com/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ From john at westciv.com Sun Oct 1 21:02:03 2006 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Sun Oct 1 21:02:09 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art? In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610012057h170d72bbte93ba17417d66227@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610012057h170d72bbte93ba17417d66227@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Hello, Bruce, > > Aren't there old X11 applications that used to copy-and-paste meta > data too? > > I think I remember using old SGI workstations in University that > copied-and-pasted text with bolding and italicizing intact. > > > See ya In an application I developed in 1994-6, "Palimpsest" you could cut and paste the links (I called them "cross references") and annotations, which had rich meta data in them. You could "tag" links and annotations with "labels", links and annotations had creators, creation dates, etc. All this data was maintained when copying and pasting within the app. You can still run Palimpsest on the Mac in Classic. HTH john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org Web Directions Conference :: Sydney September 28-29 :: http://wd06.com From karl at w3.org Sun Oct 1 21:32:16 2006 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Sun Oct 1 21:32:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002C7F10-9C21-4FA3-81F3-5942FA6582EA@w3.org> Le 2 oct. 06 ? 12:10, Tantek ?elik a ?crit : >> http://lavalife.com.au/ >> http://www.rsvp.com.au/ >> http://match.com.au/ >> http://adultmatchmaker.com.au/ > > It would be a good start to at least add those URLs as sources for > profile > information to the profile-examples page. Just to guarantee that what is *actually used* on the Web is not only English. http://fr.meetic.yahoo.net/ - French http://partner.yahoo.co.jp/ - Japanese http://cn.personals.yahoo.com/ - Chinese > It is irrelevant what some sites "may" do. What is relevant is > what sites > *actually* do. Do you have any other examples? Go explore sites in other languages than English, then gather the results, and you might understand what sites are *actually* and *practically* doing. >> I guess that's an issue with tagging in general, where >> you get people coming up with dozens of different tags to represent >> exactly the same concept. > > Actually it's not. With folksonomies, it has been demonstrated > over and > over again, that communities tend to converge on tags to mean > things. Sure > there are some redundancies but the community typically ends up > organically > picking a winner and using it. This has been seen on the centralized > communities of delcious, Flickr, and even with decentralized blog > post tags > that Technorati indexes. Flickr is a site with an English UI, removing/selecting a big part of people. Something that native English speakers have always hard time to understand. From a practical experience, many people around me can't use Flickr because it is in English. Then in an English- speaking dominated community, yes your tags will be in English. Flickr is extremely annoying for tags in a non english context. Practical example: http://flickr.com/photos/smallbox/246843470/ These are practical problems? http://flickr.com/photos/tags/normandy/ http://flickr.com/photos/tags/normandie/ http://flickr.com/photos/tags/???????/ Look at the tag cloud (right) and tell me if it's the one you can find on Technorati. http://blogmarks.net/marks/tag/politique reliability, regularity in data build trust. Trust is needed for people. This is a practical problem. >> There are advantages to that type of tagging in some cases. But say, >> for example, you were using a personals search engine looking for >> brunettes, a search engine should theoretically list people that have >> used either of those tags. > > Even before personals search engines, there were printed personals, > and > "tagging" conventions evolved there for people to quickly/accurately > describe attributes and wants. You don't need to presolve most of > these > problems with a-priori taxonomies/ontologies - the authors of the > data often > solve them themselves. taxonomies/ontologies are rarely made a-priori. There is here a clear confusion of what is an organization model and the modality of creating this model. You could perfectly have a taxonomy which is based on tagging. It is surprising to read this here. Some ontologies/taxonomies are defined and microformats are using them to describe contents. hcard is based on vcard which is a taxonomy. When Flickr created geotagging by maps, it is a taxonomy as well. When you enter a zip code in a database and you derived all the address information, it is from a taxonomy. Though if you enter a US ZIP code in a Canadian form, it doesn't make sense, because there are differences. Anyway, it was just a mail to say that there are practical differences and that we have a tendency to ignore by the nature of the working language (English). We remove participation from people of other languages which could bring the diversity that *really* exists on the web. We ignore source of information which would help us to give a real and practical solution. If there is really a practical problem to solve which is not obvious sometimes. > is pretty much dead. Another false assertion :) Try spotlight and you will see. Fight ideas, not people. Respect the diversity of people (not just English speakers) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Sun Oct 1 21:48:56 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Sun Oct 1 21:49:07 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45209A38.2000403@lachy.id.au> Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 10/1/06 5:34 PM, "Lachlan Hunt" wrote: >> http://lavalife.com.au/ >> http://www.rsvp.com.au/ >> http://match.com.au/ >> http://adultmatchmaker.com.au/ > > It would be a good start to at least add those URLs as sources for profile > information to the profile-examples page. Added those, as well as the non-english ones Karl sent. >> (Unfortunately, on some of those sites, you need to become a member >> before you can see any profiles.) > > The more closed the system, the less the likelihood that they will bother to > adopt a microformat, thus the less useful such a system is as a "real world" > example to use for modeling. Yeah, that's one of the problems I mentioned with those kind of sites in my initial e-mail to this thread. > I recommend finding some sites where you don't have to become a member > before seeing any profiles. Of those sites, LavaLife and RSVP will allow you to see profile details without registration. Match.com will only show you a nickname and photo, AdultMatchMaker requires registration to see anything. That's why I said my research was primarily based on LavaLife and RSVP. >>> In addition, I do suggest more research. >>> >>> E.g. you mentioned supposed rel-tag limitations, giving the example of >>> "brown": >>> >>>> The recurring problem with the use of rel-tag in most of these is that >>>> we're trying to represent name:value pairs, whereas rel-tag only really >>>> represents the value. >>>> >>>> e.g. >>>> >>>> That doesn't indicate whether it represents hair colour, eye colour, >>>> favourite colour or something else entirely. >>> The participants of at least one "social networking" site (consumating.com) >>> have already solved this problem, WITHOUT name/value pairs with tags like: >>> >>> brown_hair >>> blue_eyes >> I thought of that, but one of the problems is that some sites may tag >> them like that, others may use "brown_(Hair_Colour)", "Brunette", >> "cheveux bruns" (French for brown hair, according to babelfish) or some >> other variation. > > You are talking theoretically "some sites *may* tag them like that..." Actually, it has happened. http://consumating.com/tags/brownhair (1069 people - 43.3%) http://consumating.com/tags/brunette (1292 people - 52.4%) http://consumating.com/tags/brown_hair (56 people - 2.3%) http://consumating.com/tags/darkbrownhair (21 people - 0.8%) http://consumating.com/tags/lightbrownhair (21 people - 0.8%) http://consumating.com/tags/hairbrown (6 people - 0.2%) So, it seems to be fairly close between "brownhair" and "brunette". The other tags are relatively minor. However, the sample size isn't very large. > It is irrelevant what some sites "may" do. What is relevant is what sites > *actually* do. Do you have any other examples? RSVP, AdultMatchMaker and Match.com don't do tagging like that, they offer a list of common hair colours instead (similarly for many other fields). Although, the lists used by all 3 are very similar to each other. Although "brunette" seems to be winning on consumating.com, those other 3 sites all unanimously use "dark brown" and "light brown". > Even before personals search engines, there were printed personals, and > "tagging" conventions evolved there for people to quickly/accurately > describe attributes and wants. You don't need to presolve most of these > problems with a-priori taxonomies/ontologies - the authors of the data often > solve them themselves. Good point. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From timber at lava.net Sun Oct 1 22:25:35 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Sun Oct 1 22:25:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <45205E7C.5000201@lachy.id.au> References: <45205E7C.5000201@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <514A24AD-F0D2-4D9C-8E5B-63D54F47AF31@lava.net> On Oct 1, 2006, at 2:34 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: > http://lavalife.com.au/ > http://www.rsvp.com.au/ > http://match.com.au/ > http://adultmatchmaker.com.au/ > > (Unfortunately, on some of those sites, you need to become a member > before you can see any profiles.) Another few sites to try: http://okcupid.com http://consumating.com As far as tagging being unfair to non-english speakers: I think most business are willing to only focus on the English speaking part of the 'web. Many also tend to split off communities by country and/or language (examples: google, yahoo, ebay, etc etc etc) once there is a identified market in that country. English is the lingua franca of the web. While it's important to understand and accomodate for i18n issues, I would say that the 80/20 rule would preclude us, at least for now, from really looking too hard at how to handle microformats in other languages. Plus, I think there's a better, more general solution to this problem rather than trying to shoehorn it in to hReview or "hPersonal" (i.e. some kind of automated JS-based localizing, similar to how desktop applications work). -Colin From mdagn at spraci.com Mon Oct 2 00:31:14 2006 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Mon Oct 2 00:31:21 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates Message-ID: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Is there a way to specify the accuracy of latitude/longitude? Some information (such as data used for street maps) would obviously have to be as accurate as possible but there would be other cases where it would be useful to just be able specify that something is in a certain city and easily work out an approximate distance from another city. I think it would be good to have a way to distinguish something that is accurate enough to display a street map from something that is only accurate enough to tell you what city or country something is in. I don't think the character of the resource being described is enough. eg: If its for a venue for an event and I know its in a certain city but I don't know the coordinates down to street address level it could sometimes still be useful to calculate an approximate travel distance from another city even though the available coordinates are not accurate enough be used to show a street map of the actual address. What if I want to be able to show a street map only if the coordinates are accurate enough? There would also be plenty of other similar situations such as someone just wanting to mark up what city or country they live in without telling the world their actual home address compared to a business or shop wanting to mark up their location accurately so that people can easily find their office/shop on a street map. From mdagn at spraci.com Mon Oct 2 00:32:00 2006 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Mon Oct 2 00:31:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles Message-ID: <200610020731.k927Vn752760@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> >There are several problems with this: >* Service providers usually require you to pay before you can contact >someone you've found or vice versa. Such sites usually allow you to browse user profiles for free, but expect you to pay to contact anyone so I think there is probably a need for a way to specify the cost and methods used to contact someone. >Anyway, I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool if you could publish your >profile anywhere you like, whether it be your own personal site or some >service provider, and your data could be found and searched by any >search engine. There are already similar types of search engines for >searching blogs, sites with heviews, hResumes, etc. So I'm sure it >could work for this too. Certainly... >The kind of information typically collected by these sites includes the >following (some of which can already be handled by existing microformats): > >* Name, DOB, Address , e-mail, photos (hCard, adr, geo) + cost of contact, method of contact, currency + is membership (eg of a personals website) required for contact and are there extra costs associated with that? >* Professional info: occupation, education (hResume) >* Physical attributes: gender, race, height, build, hair colour, eye colour, etc. >* Personal preferences: sexual preference, drinking/smoking habits, >diet, etc. >* Other: Culture, religion, marital status, star sign. >* Descriptions: hobbies, music, sport, reading, general interests, etc. >Other microformats that could be useful for integrating with this would >include: >* rel-tag. e.g. > , > > + what they are seeking What kind of people (if any) do they want to meet and what do they want to do together with the people they meet. Maybe there would be two lists of tags, one about themselves and one about what they are seeking. (I think hResume probably needs something like this too - for people seeking employment - what kind of work they are seeking?) We may also need to think about how to make it less confusing for something that only looks at rel-tag - eg Someone may put "male" in a list about themselves and "female" in a list of what they are seeking but come up as both in something that can't separate the two lists of tags! >* XFN for keeping track of the contacts you meet >* VoteLinks or hReview for rating the people you meet, would like to >meet or, perhaps, don't want to meet. maybe a way to specify the relative importance of desired attributes of the person/people they want to meet? >There may be privacy concerns with this type of data, but people are >already making it effectively publicly available through these sites. >Plus, the users are still ultimately in control of what info they do and >do not decide to publish. That is important. For sites with user profiles such as personals sites I think the privacy issues are probably much the same as those that affect what they already publish publicly on their sites. >With all this data available, it could make it so much easier to find >and meet up with people. With it published as microformat, I can >imagine the possibilities for mashups. e.g. Using google maps to plot >people living near you with similar interests. Integrating it with >Google Calandar or upcoming.org to organise meetings with people who >have similar interests in your area. + also any other sites people may visit to find others who share common interests... such as music sites, events sites, forums, social clubs/associations/etc and I'm sure plenty of others. I think it's a good idea well worth looking into! From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 01:07:04 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 01:08:31 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: In message <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au>, Michael MD writes >Is there a way to specify the accuracy of latitude/longitude? Yes - the number of decimal places given. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Mon Oct 2 01:10:33 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Mon Oct 2 01:10:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <200610020731.k927Vn752760@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200610020731.k927Vn752760@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au> Michael MD wrote: >> There are several problems with this: >> * Service providers usually require you to pay before you can contact >> someone you've found or vice versa. > > Such sites usually allow you to browse user profiles for free, but expect > you to pay to contact anyone so I think there is probably a need for a way > to specify the cost and methods used to contact someone. There are formats being discussed for marking up currency. hListing has the ability to markup prices, although I think it should be free to contact someone. It would be if we had the ability to list profiles on our own sites (where we wouldn't be restricted by the contact info we can provide) and have them indexed by personals search engines. >> The kind of information typically collected by these sites includes the >> following (some of which can already be handled by existing microformats): >> ... >> Other microformats that could be useful for integrating with this would >> include: >> * rel-tag. e.g. >> , >> > > + what they are seeking > What kind of people (if any) do they want to meet and what do they want to > do together with the people they meet. > > Maybe there would be two lists of tags, one about themselves and one about > what they are seeking. I mentioned that in one of my previous posts. hListing offers a way for specifying both a "meet" and "wanted" listing (among others). "meet" could be used for your own personal profile and "wanted" for the profile of your ideal partner. > We may also need to think about how to make it less confusing for something > that only looks at rel-tag - eg Someone may put "male" in a list about > themselves and "female" in a list of what they are seeking but come up as > both in something that can't separate the two lists of tags! Yes, that problem is related to the rel-tag limitations I've been discussing. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Mon Oct 2 05:56:05 2006 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Mon Oct 2 05:56:08 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] The trouble with titles (in hAtom) In-Reply-To: <83cf34410609281606p64dd96cbkdd65893ff516deab@mail.gmail.com> References: <83cf34410609281606p64dd96cbkdd65893ff516deab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20610020556k46bf908crbede94031af7b47f@mail.gmail.com> Fixed. Y'all can try it by pasting in the text here [1]. For those not heads down in hAtom, the tricky parts in the sample below are: - markup inside the are supposed to be ignored wrt. hAtom elements - missing entry-title then should trigger the logic outlined below - multiple entry-content sections to be aggregated together Regards, etc... David [1] http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/ On 9/28/06, Ian McKellar wrote: > Hi, > > I'm playing with writing a generic microformat parser that'll be able > to parse any format, given some minimal definition. I started with geo > (piece of cake) and then went on to hAtom (since I've been playing > with it a little lately. I got stuck on how to express the fallback > rules for entry title: > > if the Entry Title is missing, use > > * the first element in the Entry, or > * the of the page, if there is no enclosing Feed element, or > * assume it is the empty string > > so Tantek suggested I check out what other implementations out there do. > > I threw a really minimal hAtom document at hatom2atom & the AUMFP: > <html> > <head> > <title>I should be the title > > >

> I'm the start of the entry. > I'm not the title > I'm the rest of the entry. >

> > > > >From my reading of the hAtom spec this page represents an hatom feed > with no title and one entry with the title "I should be the title" and > the content "I'm the start of the entry. I'm the rest of the entry." > > hatom2atom attached the title to the feed not the entry, and the AUMFP > didn't find the title at all. > > So the point of the email is twofold - firstly, these tools probably > need to be updated, and secondly, I don't really understand where the > current behaviour came from - is it the behaviour we want? > > Ian > > -- > Ian McKellar > ianloic on [flickr | aim | yahoo | skype] > ian@mckellar.org on [email | jabber | msn] > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com Mon Oct 2 07:04:50 2006 From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus) Date: Mon Oct 2 07:04:53 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art? In-Reply-To: References: <84ce626f0610012057h170d72bbte93ba17417d66227@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/2/06, John Allsopp wrote: > In an application I developed in 1994-6, "Palimpsest" you could cut > and paste the links (I called them "cross references") and > annotations, which had rich meta data in them. You could "tag" links > and annotations with "labels", links and annotations had creators, > creation dates, etc. All this data was maintained when copying and > pasting within the app. But not on the system pasteboard? I don't think the difference is significant, but it seems to me the application claims it is (indeed, imagine next-generation desktop functionality where one could paste metadata long with content). I've gotten two pieces of information/suggestions: 1) On formal process: "To have your materials considered during the substantive examination process, you'll want to file your prior art under rule 1.99 which is for post-publication protest. It requires payment of a fee and does not allow you to provide commentary on the prior art submissions but Rule 1.291 submissions have to be done before publication.." Not sure what the fee is, but it's telling that you have to pay one! 2) More informal: a number of people suggested writing an article for Groklaw. Problem is I'm not competent enough in patent law to do that. Bruce From mdagn at spraci.com Mon Oct 2 08:03:17 2006 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Mon Oct 2 08:03:12 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles Message-ID: <200610021503.k92F38792957@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> > There are formats being discussed for marking up currency. hListing has > the ability to markup prices, although I think it should be free to > contact someone. It would be if we had the ability to list profiles on > our own sites (where we wouldn't be restricted by the contact info we > can provide) and have them indexed by personals search engines. I agree, However some of the websites mentioned in this thread (RSVP, Lavalife, etc) are not free and if we want such sites to also be using this I think there should be a way for them to tell us the cost in their markup. If it is just assumed to always be free it is likely that some pay-to-contact sites may still try to use it to promote themselves much like some of the spam we see on usenet personals newsgroups. Giving pay-to-contact sites a way to use it legitimately by actually telling us the cost in their markup may help reduce the amount of fake "free personals" spam. I was just throwing some ideas into the discussion...sorry if some of it may have already been covered. I've been semi-away for a few days of very interesting festivals and conferences (Newcastle Sound Summit/Electrofringe and Web Directions South) so I've been only able to skim through the emails very quickly while being somewhat sleep-deprived :-) and may have missed some stuff. From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Oct 2 09:42:13 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (brian suda) Date: Mon Oct 2 09:43:14 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Technorati.com/events and Outlook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45214165.50408@gmail.com> Jeremy Flint wrote: > What is the status of hCal events working in Outlook (testing in 2003) > when fed through the feeds.technorati.com/events url? > > Is it something that is do-able or is it a bug in the code at > Technorati? I have noticed that when I use Tails in Firefox, the > events work in Outlook without a problem. Do you have a link so we can see if we can replicate the problem? There is a known list of issues with different Applications (http://microformats.org/wiki/icalendar-implementations) You can check to see if there are known issues with Outlook 2003 and if these are new issues, then please add them. (http://microformats.org/wiki/icalendar-implementations#Microsoft_Outlook) -brian From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 10:26:36 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 10:28:01 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au> References: <200610020731.k927Vn752760@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <08in2UeMvUIFFwKz@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au>, Lachlan Hunt writes >There are formats being discussed for marking up currency. Here: -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Oct 2 11:40:43 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Oct 2 11:40:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <08in2UeMvUIFFwKz@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <200610020731.k927Vn752760@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au> <08in2UeMvUIFFwKz@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <45215D2B.3070201@brixlogic.com> I have had a really hard time finding currency examples on the Web using something else/more than the "price" class name to qualify currency amounts (I wish there was a search engine for HTML source code). Actually, I haven't found any (only one is documented on the http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples page). Have you seen any in the context of personal profiles? If so, they should be added to the page. http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples. If not, and if we follow the microformat process, then "price" is probably enough. Thank you Guillaume Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au>, Lachlan Hunt > writes > > >> There are formats being discussed for marking up currency. >> > > > Here: > > > > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 12:07:03 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 12:08:21 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <45215D2B.3070201@brixlogic.com> References: <200610020731.k927Vn752760@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au> <08in2UeMvUIFFwKz@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <45215D2B.3070201@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <0CkHZdsXNWIFFwpB@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <45215D2B.3070201@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >I have had a really hard time finding currency examples on the Web >using something else/more than the "price" class name to qualify >currency amounts How much data was marked up with "dtstart", "fn" or "entry-content" as a class name, before microformats came along? >If so, they should be added to the page. http://microformats.org/wiki/c >urrency-examples. If not, and if we follow the microformat process, >then "price" is probably enough. I think you're mis-reading the process. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From timber at lava.net Mon Oct 2 12:13:38 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Mon Oct 2 12:13:40 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art? In-Reply-To: References: <84ce626f0610012057h170d72bbte93ba17417d66227@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7DA66362-6E36-4A7B-B049-404192682F82@lava.net> On Oct 2, 2006, at 4:04 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > indeed, > imagine next-generation desktop functionality where one could paste > metadata long with content Mac OS X does that right now, actually. Which is (of course) the whole idea behind the patent ;) From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 12:35:13 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 12:36:37 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues In-Reply-To: <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <16DE6A8B-5A55-44B0-AF65-01E029E62007@randomchaos.com> <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett writes > >Finally (from me, for now), I've had an e-mail from someone wanting to >comment on the "species" proposal, saying: > > I've just tried creating an account on the microformats site so > that I can join in with the discussion, but whenever I try to > sign up, I get a message telling me 'You have not specified a > valid user name'. I've tried various permutations without any > luck. Did you have any trouble when signing up? > >and, indeed I did - and couldn't figure out why the user name I wanted >to use was not being accepted. I've just received another, on the same lines. Who can edit the sign-on page? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 12:38:50 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 12:39:58 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Process to handle decentralized creation of new microformats? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Tantek ?elik writes >Semantic XHTML has been widely adopted by the web design and >development community. Really? Is that widely according to your "80/20" measure? >As was discussed very early in the history of microformats, if there >are hundreds of microformats, we've actually failed. What's your envisaged maximum? BTW, I'm awaiting an answer to my recent question in the "species" thread. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 12:39:35 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 12:40:38 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] The trouble with titles (in hAtom) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20610020556k46bf908crbede94031af7b47f@mail.gmail.com> References: <83cf34410609281606p64dd96cbkdd65893ff516deab@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20610020556k46bf908crbede94031af7b47f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e523c20610020556k46bf908crbede94031af7b47f@mail.gmail.com>, David Janes writes >- markup inside the are supposed to be ignored wrt. hAtom elements Why is that? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From ajturner at highearthorbit.com Mon Oct 2 12:48:53 2006 From: ajturner at highearthorbit.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Mon Oct 2 12:48:55 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates Message-ID: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> Andy Mabbett > In message <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au>, Michael > MD writes > > >Is there a way to specify the accuracy of latitude/longitude? > > Yes - the number of decimal places given. > The question seems a little fuzzy. I assume Michael meant "accuracy" of the coordinates, so much as the radius of interest of the specified coordinates? A center of a city may be fairly accurate, with the bounds of the city specified as a radius. Limiting this radius definition as just a limit of number of decimal places doesn't work. GeoRSS uses a "radius" element, which could be a uf class and would specify in meters, kilometers, or miles (itself a discussion for units). Or perhaps better would be a featuretypetag (again using GeoRSS as a working case example) that can specify "city": The crater is 50 meters centered at 37.386013, -122.082932. The eclipse can be seen from
N 37? 24.491 W 122? 08.313, or anywhere in the city
. -- Andrew Turner ajturner@highearthorbit.com 42.4266N x 83.4931W http://highearthorbit.com Northville, Michigan, USA From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Oct 2 12:49:14 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Oct 2 12:49:17 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] existing currency formats: XBRL Message-ID: <45216D3A.4000200@brixlogic.com> I took a look at the semantics used by XBRL for currency amounts (a standard for corporate financial reporting pushed among others by the SEC). I have made an adaptation of them in semantic XHTML: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats#XBRL (without incorporating existing thoughts on currency, just for the sake documenting just XBRL). What's nice about these semantics is that: * In XBRL, a currency is just another simple unit of measure. * In XBRL, a unit of measure can be simple or complex. A simple unit of measure if for instance "feet" or "Dollars" while a complex unit of measure is "Euros per share". * Units of measurement can be specified anywhere in the XBRL document and assigned a unique identifier, then referred to from numerical facts. Here are two examples from the page. The globally defined currency relies on an empty anchor. I don't know if anyone has an opinion about using anchors this way. Locally defined currency: 100 GBP Globally defined currency: GBP ... 100 If we incorporate some of the patterns that seem to emerge from the brainstorming page, we could have: Locally defined currency: 100 £ Globally defined currency: Amounts in £ ...
... 100
Let me know what you think. Guillaume From yellowikis at gmail.com Mon Oct 2 13:31:34 2006 From: yellowikis at gmail.com (admin Yellowikis) Date: Mon Oct 2 13:31:36 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: species In-Reply-To: References: <01C72403-C1A4-4D1B-9A0C-8F9EA2240CE4@randomchaos.com> <7oVkDRHtxWHFFwTC@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <40b4c2310610021331n1193e30aic2f2852f0ecfc815@mail.gmail.com> I'd like to see this microformat integrated into hCard. (I've just been meeting lots of VCs recently) Paul On 10/1/06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <7oVkDRHtxWHFFwTC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett > writes > > >In message , Andy Mabbett > > writes > > > >>In message , Tantek ?elik > >> writes > >> > >>>Andy, one thing that might help for the species discussion is if you > >>>could cite URLs to a site or sites with millions (or even thousands) of > >>>clearly obvious uses of "species" terminology > >> > >>Are you (and everyone) content that we have sufficient such examples, > >>now? > >> > >> > > > >?? > > ?? > -- > Andy Mabbett > Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: > > Free Our Data: > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Yellowikis is to Yellow Pages, as Wikipedia is to The Encyclopedia Britannica From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 13:58:26 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 13:59:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com>, Andrew Turner writes >A center of a city may be fairly accurate, with the >bounds of the city specified as a radius. Consider Birmingham, England, whose "centre" is far from being equidistant to all points on its boundary - it's in "Ladywood" on this map: http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/wards >GeoRSS uses a "radius" element, which could be a uf class and would >specify in meters, kilometers, or miles (itself a discussion for >units). Or perhaps better would be a featuretypetag (again using >GeoRSS as a working case example) that can specify "city" Or the capacity to describe a polygon... -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From chris at placenamehere.com Mon Oct 2 14:00:41 2006 From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano) Date: Mon Oct 2 14:01:09 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <002C7F10-9C21-4FA3-81F3-5942FA6582EA@w3.org> References: <002C7F10-9C21-4FA3-81F3-5942FA6582EA@w3.org> Message-ID: <8069F358-F397-4F9C-8CB7-6EB9F2E1A857@placenamehere.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 12:32 AM, Karl Dubost wrote: > >> It is irrelevant what some sites "may" do. What is relevant is >> what sites >> *actually* do. Do you have any other examples? > > Go explore sites in other languages than English, then gather the > results, and you might understand what sites are *actually* and > *practically* doing. It may be worth looking at the recent changes istockphoto has made wrt. localizing tags [as part of a bigger localization effort] before getting too deep into this conversation on one side of the other. I've only caught a wiff of it for mentions of transition problems, but it sounds like an interesting *and* real world/live example of wrestling with the issue of translations and or similes in tagging. -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] From ryan at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 14:11:39 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Oct 2 14:11:51 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Pingeratti - multiple submissions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2006, at 12:39 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Ryan > King writes > >> Currently no. Why not just write a script that runs on your side and >> programmatically pings the relevant URLs? > > Firstly, I don't programme. I'm sorry, I tend to assume that most people around here can. > Secondly, if we want to encourage the take-up of uFs in the wider, > less techie community, then we need to provide tools that make such > tasks easier for them. too. I agree that we should encourage adoption by people with differing abilities. > Lastly, if such a repetitive task needs to be automated, then it's > far more efficient for that to be done once, centrally, than > hundreds or thousands of times, all round the globe. As far as I know, you're the first person who's asked for this functionality. I wouldn't mind building it into pingerati if and when we see some more demand. Until then, it shouldn't be too difficult to build a tool which will take care of this. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 14:12:59 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Oct 2 14:13:01 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki spamming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2006, at 1:59 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > I've just reverted some porn spamming from the main page of the Wiki - > someone might want to remove the user concerned. Has anyone gotten to this? -ryan From timber at lava.net Mon Oct 2 14:41:30 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Mon Oct 2 14:41:33 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Or the capacity to describe a polygon... I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. A radius is Good Enough. We don't need to re-implement KML here. From john.breslin at deri.org Mon Oct 2 15:53:21 2006 From: john.breslin at deri.org (John Breslin) Date: Mon Oct 2 14:55:30 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and SIOC In-Reply-To: <20060223190027.6F5D6F085B2@microformats> References: <20060223190027.6F5D6F085B2@microformats> Message-ID: <45219861.8060805@deri.org> Hi all - For those involved in cite-rel or interested in the area of distributed conversations (and Eran's cool distributed social anything ideas!), I have written a few ideas about how SIOC [2] relates to Microformats and vice versa on my blog [1]... [1] http://www.johnbreslin.com/blog/2006/10/02/microformats-and-sioc/ [2] http://sioc-project.org/ Looking forward to your comments, All the best, John. -- Dr. John Breslin DERI, NUI Galway http://sw.deri.org/~jbreslin From chris at placenamehere.com Mon Oct 2 14:55:45 2006 From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano) Date: Mon Oct 2 14:56:12 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <1A852A63-4397-4385-B645-0505E81A99E1@placenamehere.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 5:41 PM, Colin Barrett wrote: > On Oct 2, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... > > I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. A radius is Good Enough. We > don't need to re-implement KML here. I think somehow we jumped right from defining the accuracy of a 'point' into defining an area. Since I've started using flickr's geo tagging I often finding myself wanting to say something "somewhere over here" when tacking the proverbial thumbtack onto the map and marking something as "all of this sort of rectangular Central Park" To the earlier discussion I don't think precision in decimal points cuts it either as a legitimate solution because unless you're pulling data from a GPS unit at time of capture the fuzzyness isn't in the tools measurement capabilities its in the ability of humans to be precise in their description or recollection (along with plenty of other issues of convention and usage on the web not necessarily caring about significant digits in that manner). So whats the solution? not sure... I'd love to see sites like flickr allow a user to specify how precise a marking is so you don't get a mish-mosh of very specific points and sorta-near-here points, but I don't know what that means for the geo mf, if anything. -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 14:58:02 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 14:59:32 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message , Colin Barrett writes >> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... > >I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, towns, cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From chris at placenamehere.com Mon Oct 2 15:16:38 2006 From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:20:22 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Colin > Barrett writes > >>> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... >> >> I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. > > Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, towns, > cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are > polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. You could outline any territory as a series of geos if the need ever arose. But I'm still not clear how we've gotten here. If I want to say something is in Ireland, or Mexico City or somewhere in the Alps I'd tag it as such. I thought the original issue of accuracy was one of precision (either via tool measurement or in human recollection). Not one of being able to define a "geo" that accurately represents the floorplan of Yankee Stadium or the whole of Antarctica but of accurately reflecting if a designation was accurate enough to make a determination if a specific seat in yankee stadium, "somewhere in the bleechers", or just "near the stadium as i was walking around before the game" or "i need to mark the bronx somehow so left me zoom out and drop a marker from the 50k foot view" (Forgive me if I may have read more into the discussion due to my own biases/concerns) -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] From kmarks at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 15:23:56 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:24:36 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: Andy, you're missing the point. A bare lat-long pair is not always helpful. If that's all you have, you can't really display a useful map. The existing mapping tools tend to use product-specific ways of specifying the degree of zoom needed, to distinguish between the right side of my desk, the Technorati offices, South of Market, San Francisco, The Bay Area, California, and America. A radius of interest is a way to express this in a platform-neutral way that doesn't require address-parsing. It is readily derivable from any specific mapping platform. If you want to express a geographic feature such as those I mentioned above, clearly a human-readable label such as 'San Francisco' is a better than a polygon. You probably realise that the polygons necessary are in fact fractals, with the resolution necessary determined by the zoom level too. We don't want to replicate Arc-Info here, we want to replicate useful user-info. On Oct 2, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Colin > Barrett writes > >>> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... >> >> I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. > > Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, towns, > cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are > polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. From mf at friedcellcollective.net Mon Oct 2 15:34:39 2006 From: mf at friedcellcollective.net (Marko Mrdjenovic) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:35:06 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Pingeratti - multiple submissions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452193FF.2060503@friedcellcollective.net> Ryan King wrote: > As far as I know, you're the first person who's asked for this > functionality. I wouldn't mind building it into pingerati if and when > we see some more demand. Until then, it shouldn't be too difficult to > build a tool which will take care of this. Until then you're all very welcome to use the pingerator. Marko From ryan at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 15:39:28 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:39:48 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues In-Reply-To: References: <16DE6A8B-5A55-44B0-AF65-01E029E62007@randomchaos.com> <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <56ECC621-BF74-40B1-9010-B986E2444A1C@technorati.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett > writes > >> >> Finally (from me, for now), I've had an e-mail from someone >> wanting to >> comment on the "species" proposal, saying: >> >> I've just tried creating an account on the microformats >> site so >> that I can join in with the discussion, but whenever I try to >> sign up, I get a message telling me 'You have not specified a >> valid user name'. I've tried various permutations without any >> luck. Did you have any trouble when signing up? >> >> and, indeed I did - and couldn't figure out why the user name I >> wanted >> to use was not being accepted. > > I've just received another, on the same lines. Who can edit the > sign-on > page? I can. I've updated it to read: "Your user name (it must be a WikiWord)" I'm not sure why, but in order to make the change, I had to edit a php file, a database table and clear the objectcache table. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 15:41:49 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:41:53 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] The trouble with titles (in hAtom) In-Reply-To: References: <83cf34410609281606p64dd96cbkdd65893ff516deab@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20610020556k46bf908crbede94031af7b47f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <21e523c20610020556k46bf908crbede94031af7b47f@mail.gmail.com>, David > Janes writes > >> - markup inside the are supposed to be ignored wrt. hAtom >> elements > > Why is that? So that you can quote other content marked up in hAtom. The same rule applies to
, if I'm not mistaken. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 15:51:00 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:51:06 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: <87A60159-E1F0-44F3-A6CB-227F630F5C77@technorati.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 12:31 AM, Michael MD wrote: > Is there a way to specify the accuracy of latitude/longitude? I suspect you actually mean 'precision' not 'accuracy', no? > ... > > I don't think the character of the resource being described is enough. What do you mean by 'character of the resource'? > > eg: If its for a venue for an event and I know its in a certain > city but I don't know the coordinates down to street address level > it could sometimes still be useful to calculate an approximate > travel distance from another city even though the available > coordinates are not accurate enough be used > to show a street map of the actual address. > ... > There would also be plenty of other similar situations such as > someone just wanting to mark up what city or country they live in > without telling the world their actual home address compared to a > business or shop wanting to mark up their location accurately so > that people can easily find their > office/shop on a street map. Use adr [http://microformats.org/wiki/adr], or hcard [mfwhttp:// microformats.org/wiki/hcard]. -ryan From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 15:54:23 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:55:59 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> Message-ID: In message <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com>, Chris Casciano writes >>>> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... >>> >>> I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. >> >> Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, towns, >> cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are >> polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. > > >You could outline any territory as a series of geos if the need ever >arose. In other words, "the capacity to describe a polygon". -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Oct 2 15:56:52 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Oct 2 15:58:14 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message , Kevin Marks writes >Andy, you're missing the point. No, I'm not. >If >If That's not a point, that's a conditional conjecture. >We don't Who don't? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From chris at placenamehere.com Mon Oct 2 16:05:05 2006 From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:05:30 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com>, > Chris Casciano writes > >>>>> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... >>>> >>>> I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. >>> >>> Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, >>> towns, >>> cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are >>> polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. >> >> >> You could outline any territory as a series of geos if the need ever >> arose. > > In other words, "the capacity to describe a polygon". Totally ignored the point I was trying to make... and that is that describing a border - of any shape - by the use of a collection of geo coords (at whatever precision) is a totally different task then defining an individual point and its precision. -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] From timber at lava.net Mon Oct 2 16:07:52 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:07:54 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Kevin > Marks writes > >> Andy, you're missing the point. > > No, I'm not. > >> If > >> If > > That's not a point, that's a conditional conjecture. > >> We don't > > Who don't? Instead of criticizing the structure of his argument, why not reply to the content? Or if you can't, it's OK to admit you were wrong. -Colin From mdagn at spraci.com Mon Oct 2 16:11:07 2006 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:10:58 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <200610022310.k92NAs738232@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> >A center of a city may be fairly accurate, with the >bounds of the city specified as a radius. Not really, if it's a large city... >Consider Birmingham, England, whose "centre" is far from being >equidistant to all points on its boundary - it's in "Ladywood" on this >map: > http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/wards > >GeoRSS uses a "radius" element, which could be a uf class and would >specify in meters, kilometers, or miles (itself a discussion for >units). Or perhaps better would be a featuretypetag (again using >GeoRSS as a working case example) that can specify "city" > >Or the capacity to describe a polygon... In many cases the available data is just not accurate enough to be able to accurately describe a radius or polygon. (if it were, it might be accurate enough for a street address too!) Even with only city-level accuracy, lat/long data can still be very useful, but clearly I'd want to avoid having it end up being used to generate a local street map that gives someone incorrect directions to get to a street address! The radius idea could possibly be used but the radius itself would be inaccurate. I think the featuretype idea is probably better for this if there can be a standard for the actual feature type names. (but in GeoRSS it appears to be folksonomy-based so if data comes from multiple sources, an application might need to look up some kind of dictionary of commonly used terms just to work out that it's a "city") Maybe just something to describe "fuzzyness" is needed? From kmarks at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 16:11:42 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:11:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <3ee2ea02f06f939d3f890301d049090d@technorati.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 3:56 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Kevin > Marks writes > >> Andy, you're missing the point. > > No, I'm not. This was a discussion on accuracy of co-ordinates, and I was developing that theme. If you want to start one on 'representing polygonal objects as microfromats', start a new thread and stop trolling this one >> We don't > > Who don't? OK, I don't. If you want to, feel free to start the microformats process by finding web-based representations of polygons (you can probably find some in image-maps). From kmarks at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 16:24:44 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:24:50 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> Message-ID: <284ac749ea93a7aa515d754fb31b774c@technorati.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Chris Casciano wrote: > You could outline any territory as a series of geos if the need ever > arose. But I'm still not clear how we've gotten here. If I want to say > something is in Ireland, or Mexico City or somewhere in the Alps I'd > tag it as such. I thought the original issue of accuracy was one of > precision (either via tool measurement or in human recollection). > > Not one of being able to define a "geo" that accurately represents the > floorplan of Yankee Stadium or the whole of Antarctica but of > accurately reflecting if a designation was accurate enough to make a > determination if a specific seat in yankee stadium, "somewhere in the > bleechers", or just "near the stadium as i was walking around before > the game" or "i need to mark the bronx somehow so left me zoom out and > drop a marker from the 50k foot view" http://flickr.com/map/?&tag=yankeestadium&fLat=40.828081&fLon= -73.920821&zl=7 Notice that the yankeestadium tag shows various usages here - the ambiguity between where the photo was taken from and what it was taken of. You could probably derive a useful 'centrepoint + radius' for Yankee stadium from the mean and std-dev of those geolocated, tagged points. Notice that the URL I used above has 6 digits of latitude and longitude (a supposed precision of ~ 10cm), but a zoom-level parameter to express the actual display I wanted to convey. However, what you see is dependent on the size of your browser window, as the zoom-level is defined based on pixel-size, not window width. From kmarks at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 16:36:45 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:36:50 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <200610022310.k92NAs738232@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200610022310.k92NAs738232@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Michael MD wrote: > Not really, if it's a large city... > >> Consider Birmingham, England, whose "centre" is far from being >> equidistant to all points on its boundary - it's in "Ladywood" on this >> map: >> http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/wards >> >> GeoRSS uses a "radius" element, which could be a uf class and would >> specify in meters, kilometers, or miles (itself a discussion for >> units). Or perhaps better would be a featuretypetag (again using >> GeoRSS as a working case example) that can specify "city" >> >> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... > > In many cases the available data is just not accurate enough to be > able to > accurately describe a radius or polygon. > (if it were, it might be accurate enough for a street address too!) Again, consider this URL: http://flickr.com/map/?&tag=yankeestadium&fLat=40.828081&fLon= -73.920821&zl=7 if it were expressed as a radius of 10km, I think it would do for Brum as a whole. > Even with only city-level accuracy, lat/long data can still be very > useful, > but clearly I'd want to avoid having it end up being used to generate a > local street map that gives someone incorrect directions to get to a > street > address! > > The radius idea could possibly be used but the radius itself would be > inaccurate. That's fine - it's really an order-of-magnitude expression of detail. > I think the featuretype idea is probably better for this if > there can be a standard for the actual feature type names. > (but in GeoRSS it appears to be folksonomy-based so if data comes from > multiple sources, an application might need to look up some kind of > dictionary of commonly used terms just to work out that it's a "city") Or, as in this example, it could be derived from the tag + geo expressed by several people. From chris at placenamehere.com Mon Oct 2 16:37:10 2006 From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:37:36 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <284ac749ea93a7aa515d754fb31b774c@technorati.com> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> <284ac749ea93a7aa515d754fb31b774c@technorati.com> Message-ID: <1F75F9CD-B047-4440-8A57-D518CF10B7D8@placenamehere.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 7:24 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: > > On Oct 2, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Chris Casciano wrote: >> You could outline any territory as a series of geos if the need >> ever arose. But I'm still not clear how we've gotten here. If I >> want to say something is in Ireland, or Mexico City or somewhere >> in the Alps I'd tag it as such. I thought the original issue of >> accuracy was one of precision (either via tool measurement or in >> human recollection). >> >> Not one of being able to define a "geo" that accurately represents >> the floorplan of Yankee Stadium or the whole of Antarctica but of >> accurately reflecting if a designation was accurate enough to make >> a determination if a specific seat in yankee stadium, "somewhere >> in the bleechers", or just "near the stadium as i was walking >> around before the game" or "i need to mark the bronx somehow so >> left me zoom out and drop a marker from the 50k foot view" > > http://flickr.com/map/? > &tag=yankeestadium&fLat=40.828081&fLon=-73.920821&zl=7 > > Notice that the yankeestadium tag shows various usages here - the > ambiguity between where the photo was taken from and what it was > taken of. > > You could probably derive a useful 'centrepoint + radius' for > Yankee stadium from the mean and std-dev of those geolocated, > tagged points. > > Notice that the URL I used above has 6 digits of latitude and > longitude (a supposed precision of ~ 10cm), but a zoom-level > parameter to express the actual display I wanted to convey. > > However, what you see is dependent on the size of your browser > window, as the zoom-level is defined based on pixel-size, not > window width. I think its also important to note (if you weren't on IRC when this came up) that precision in this case isn't only a factor of zoom, but also one of someone marking a photo at their location or the subjects as well as their accuracy of remembering (or caring to place) the location accurately and dropping that very precise marker in the proper spot. Mix that with some highly precise data that may come from cameras with supplied GPS data and you can see where maybe dealing with different size blobs rather then specific points might better represent the data. An interesting discussion all around I think... but do we have any sites actually taking any of this into account when users tag objects? Did I miss some examples of [at least] taking zoom factor into account? -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] From limbo at actcom.co.il Mon Oct 2 16:45:03 2006 From: limbo at actcom.co.il (Eran) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:45:13 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and SIOC In-Reply-To: <45219861.8060805@deri.org> Message-ID: <20061002234512.21543F0858F@microformats.org> Hi John, Very interesting post, I'm glad to see this topic actively pursued. Here's my overly details reply - http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=91 (I'm trying to avoid doing my homework :) I'm pretty sure it's also properly marked up using cite-rel... Regards, Eran. > -----Original Message----- > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats- > discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of John Breslin > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 3:53 PM > To: Microformats Discuss > Cc: sioc-dev@googlegroups.com > Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and SIOC > > Hi all - > > For those involved in cite-rel or interested in the area of distributed > conversations (and Eran's cool distributed social anything ideas!), I > have written a few ideas about how SIOC [2] relates to Microformats and > vice versa on my blog [1]... > > [1] http://www.johnbreslin.com/blog/2006/10/02/microformats-and-sioc/ > [2] http://sioc-project.org/ > > Looking forward to your comments, > > All the best, > > John. > -- > Dr. John Breslin > DERI, NUI Galway > http://sw.deri.org/~jbreslin > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From kmarks at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 16:46:24 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Mon Oct 2 16:46:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <284ac749ea93a7aa515d754fb31b774c@technorati.com> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> <284ac749ea93a7aa515d754fb31b774c@technorati.com> Message-ID: <7d6b2b3eeb6d1c89cd38bf5b4d271b0d@technorati.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 4:24 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: > > On Oct 2, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Chris Casciano wrote: >> You could outline any territory as a series of geos if the need ever >> arose. But I'm still not clear how we've gotten here. If I want to >> say something is in Ireland, or Mexico City or somewhere in the Alps >> I'd tag it as such. I thought the original issue of accuracy was one >> of precision (either via tool measurement or in human recollection). >> >> Not one of being able to define a "geo" that accurately represents >> the floorplan of Yankee Stadium or the whole of Antarctica but of >> accurately reflecting if a designation was accurate enough to make a >> determination if a specific seat in yankee stadium, "somewhere in the >> bleechers", or just "near the stadium as i was walking around before >> the game" or "i need to mark the bronx somehow so left me zoom out >> and drop a marker from the 50k foot view" > > http://flickr.com/map/?&tag=yankeestadium&fLat=40.828081&fLon= > -73.920821&zl=7 > > Notice that the yankeestadium tag shows various usages here - the > ambiguity between where the photo was taken from and what it was taken > of. > > You could probably derive a useful 'centrepoint + radius' for Yankee > stadium from the mean and std-dev of those geolocated, tagged points. > > Notice that the URL I used above has 6 digits of latitude and > longitude (a supposed precision of ~ 10cm), but a zoom-level parameter > to express the actual display I wanted to convey. > > However, what you see is dependent on the size of your browser window, > as the zoom-level is defined based on pixel-size, not window width. Hm, also, flickr maps didn't update it right. What I meant was http://flickr.com/map/?&tag=yankeestadium&fLat=40.826738&fLon= -73.928246&zl=1&map_type=hyb which rather illustrates the underlying need. From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Oct 2 17:17:18 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Oct 2 17:17:21 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <4521AC0E.5000007@brixlogic.com> Scott, Please ignore my last post on the subject. As Andy M. pointed to me in another thread, I took an extreme interpretation of the process. Mea culpa. And sorry in advance for this long post. On the subject of what is useful to do now with currency, I agree with you that limiting the proposal to just something like: "2 barrels of oil for sale. Price: $25 per barrel" is pretty simple and would simplify the work of the developer of browser plugins that would perform some type of convenience currency conversion. That said, it would provide no incremental value to the end-user, since the absence of a currency microformat has not blocked the development of these browser plugins. This is why I argue that the simplest form of *useful* data should be a bit more than just disambiguating the currency. On the subject of dealing with currencies first, then with combinations with other products, I don't understand your point about "barrel being the product the currency references". In my example above, "2 barrels of oil" is the product, and "barrel" is a unit of "oil" as you said yourself at the beginning of your answer. Maybe the example is confusing, but the following should be less: "wage/hour" (see http://microformats.org/wiki/job-listing) "Parking garage for rent: $215/mo" (see Examples in http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting) Outside of the microformats community, I can point to financial reporting ("USD/share" for earnings per share), or my original "$25/bll" example as fairly common examples. I am sure you will agree that shares, barrel, mo, hour *are units, not products* and are an integral part of the price: If I wanted to compare two salaries: one in Euro/hour and one in Thousands of US dollar / year, converting the currency would not be enough to provide value to a user. In conclusion, this is why I suggested that we try to come up with a single measurement proposal right away, with currency being a subset of it. Perhaps what you meant was that we should have a separate "measure" proposal. I don't have a problem with that. If we agree measurement units are important in a price and that a currency unit is itself a measurement unit, then at the very least, we'd better make sure that the currency microformat will be viewed as a subset and component of the measurement unit microformat. Peace, Guillaume Scott Reynen wrote: > On Sep 29, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > >> I don't think Lorenzo is talking of: *currency amount per >> item/product* as your title and example imply (that, I agree, is a >> non-starter) >> >> but of *currency amount per unit of measurement* (which is widely >> used - see for instance: http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/, although >> not in the context of a house/product/job in which case the unit is >> obvious). >> >> In "$25 per barrel" or in "25 ($/bbl)", I think you would agree that >> knowing that the barrel is the unit of measurement is very >> significant, and even though knowing that "$" means USD dollars, >> overlooking that it is a price per barrel would lead to a big mistake. > > I think "$" is a unit of measuring currency, and "barrel" is a unit of > measuring oil, which in this case is the product the currency > references. Though used together here, these are two distinct > problems that deserve separate microformats, one for currency and > another for products (i.e. hListing). Measurement of currency can be > useful without considering measurement of products of purchase. We > should start with describing the simplest form of useful data. > > Peace, > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > --No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: > 10/1/2006 > > From mdagn at spraci.com Mon Oct 2 17:52:06 2006 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Mon Oct 2 17:51:38 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates References: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <87A60159-E1F0-44F3-A6CB-227F630F5C77@technorati.com> Message-ID: <002901c6e686$29998190$116bacca@Michael> > > > Is there a way to specify the accuracy of latitude/longitude? > > I suspect you actually mean 'precision' not 'accuracy', no? yes pecision is probably closer to what I meant > > > > I don't think the character of the resource being described is enough. > > What do you mean by 'character of the resource'? sorry I should have posted where I got that from ... I had been looking at a page describing geo "meta" tags http://geotags.com/geo/geotags2.html to see how they were looking at this problem. > > eg: If its for a venue for an event and I know its in a certain > > city but I don't know the coordinates down to street address level > > it could sometimes still be useful to calculate an approximate > > travel distance from another city even though the available > > coordinates are not accurate enough be used > > to show a street map of the actual address. > Use adr [http://microformats.org/wiki/adr], or hcard [mfwhttp:// > microformats.org/wiki/hcard]. and yes I will use those too, where appropriate.. but to get an idea of how far something is from something else I would need to use lat/long coordinates. (and of course anything that shows a map would need that too) From karl at w3.org Mon Oct 2 18:17:00 2006 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Mon Oct 2 18:17:16 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <8069F358-F397-4F9C-8CB7-6EB9F2E1A857@placenamehere.com> References: <002C7F10-9C21-4FA3-81F3-5942FA6582EA@w3.org> <8069F358-F397-4F9C-8CB7-6EB9F2E1A857@placenamehere.com> Message-ID: <6E253767-B578-4A66-AE30-FAEBCC724BA7@w3.org> Le 3 oct. 06 ? 06:00, Chris Casciano a ?crit : > It may be worth looking at the recent changes istockphoto has made > wrt. localizing tags [as part of a bigger localization effort] > before getting too deep into this conversation on one side of the > other. I've only caught a wiff of it for mentions of transition > problems, but it sounds like an interesting *and* real world/live > example of wrestling with the issue of translations and or similes > in tagging. Yes indeed. Do you know a bit more of what they did? Or at least what were the issues? I wish that tagging systems had (on the backend side) ways to deal with - associating meaning on user choices (your own private taxonomy) - associating meaning with a bigger classification (attach a tag to an already existing taxonomy, ex: geo stuff) - associating two tags giving them equivalences on user choices SKOS with label being the tags http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/ http://www.idealliance.org/proceedings/xtech05/papers/03-04-01/ It's all about giving users the choice to use well defined taxonomy AND to build his/her own if needed. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Oct 2 18:27:05 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Oct 2 18:27:09 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] measure page Message-ID: <4521BC69.1090504@brixlogic.com> I have started a measure page at http://microformats.org/wiki/measure mainly to start tracking examples and existing formats for describing measures. http://microformats.org/wiki/measure Guillaume From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Mon Oct 2 18:24:01 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Mon Oct 2 18:28:56 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <4521BBB1.50409@lachy.id.au> Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Colin > Barrett writes > >>> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... >> I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. > > Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, towns, > cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are > polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. You really missed the point. Think about it like this. If you were to pick up a map and point out roughly where you took some photo of your kids in a park (or whatever) and you wanted to pick up a pen and mark the location, you're not going to sit there and carefully outline the polygon shape of the park, you're going to draw something like an X or a circle to show the rough location. That's the concept that this thread is discussing. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Oct 2 19:06:44 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Oct 2 19:06:54 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles In-Reply-To: <0CkHZdsXNWIFFwpB@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <200610020731.k927Vn752760@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <4520C979.407@lachy.id.au> <08in2UeMvUIFFwKz@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <45215D2B.3070201@brixlogic.com> <0CkHZdsXNWIFFwpB@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <8538A282-2EFB-42DF-BA9F-3652590DA256@randomchaos.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> I have had a really hard time finding currency examples on the Web >> using something else/more than the "price" class name to qualify >> currency amounts > > How much data was marked up with "dtstart", "fn" or "entry-content" > as a > class name, before microformats came along? None. Existing use of class names is not a prerequisite to a microformat. Existing published content is a prerequisite. If it's not published in HTML, we can't microformat it. But if it's already published in HTML with standard class names, we don't need to microformat it. Peace, Scott From ryan at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 19:20:01 2006 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Oct 2 19:20:08 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <002901c6e686$29998190$116bacca@Michael> References: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <87A60159-E1F0-44F3-A6CB-227F630F5C77@technorati.com> <002901c6e686$29998190$116bacca@Michael> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2006, at 5:52 PM, Michael MD wrote: >> Use adr [http://microformats.org/wiki/adr], or hcard [mfwhttp:// >> microformats.org/wiki/hcard]. > > and yes I will use those too, where appropriate.. > but to get an idea of how far something is from something else I > would need to use lat/long coordinates. > (and of course anything that shows a map would need that too) Two things: 1. Actually, you don't need to have lat/long to get distance. There are plenty of services for translating human readable addresses into machine readable values. 2. Remember, lat/long is not human first. Lat/long is for machines. Few people use them (remember, us geeks are exceptional). In most cases people author with human readable location information, they only use lat/long to make the machines happy. -ryan From kmarks at technorati.com Mon Oct 2 19:50:31 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Mon Oct 2 19:50:37 2006 Subject: History Microformat (was Re: [uf-discuss] Dated currency examples?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7145fcd352771882c5814f1842a06df5@technorati.com> On Sep 25, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Jeremy Boggs wrote: > i would be very interested in helping to explore a "history" > microformat. In my spare time, I've been collecting examples of > history timelines, after discussions a few months ago on this list > about the inability of using hCalendar to mark up before common era > dates, and other considerations for marking up historical dates and > spans of time.[1] I've collected examples of uses of BCE dates and > timelines in general, but I could easily expand the scope of my > inquiry. Starting to collect these at history-examples on the wiki, and making notes at history-brainstorming would be a useful start. > Like Tantek says, a history microformat might help address the issue > of past currency values, as well as help markup a host of other > historical information: both secondary sources (biographies, > timelines, articles, genealogy) and primary sources (census records, > newspapers, letters, diaries, probate records, etc...). I may be > biased about this (I'm a history PhD student. And, I understand that > we would need to collect real-world examples first before moving on. > I'd be happy to share what I've collected so far, and help out any way > I can, if the community thinks it is worthwhile. Price exchanges are a complex subject, and we should be wary of either over-simplifying the real world, or bringing too much of its own complexity with us. Some prices fluctuate minute by minute (think stock markets), some on a slower basis. For most currencies, people are willing to consider prices in that currency as usably stable, though obviously the date it was offered is a useful secondary piece of information. Comparing prices between countries and even more so between eras is far more problematic, because of technological change affecting relative prices. I don't think we want to get into GDP deflators and Purchasing Power Parity if we can avoid having to. See this recent post for some of the complexities: http://www.janegalt.net/archives/009469.html One thing that has come up several time here is a discussion of date/price series - comparing prices over time. That seems like a useful thing to consider in the light of composable date and price + currency formats. From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Oct 2 20:01:52 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Oct 2 20:02:00 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <87A60159-E1F0-44F3-A6CB-227F630F5C77@technorati.com> <002901c6e686$29998190$116bacca@Michael> Message-ID: <5A1AB156-A5BF-4ACD-B5E1-EE55C236C4E9@randomchaos.com> On Oct 2, 2006, at 9:20 PM, Ryan King wrote: > 1. Actually, you don't need to have lat/long to get distance. There > are plenty of services for translating human readable addresses > into machine readable values. > > 2. Remember, lat/long is not human first. Lat/long is for machines. > Few people use them (remember, us geeks are exceptional). In most > cases people author with human readable location information, they > only use lat/long to make the machines happy. This is probably a good time to point out that I made a proxy service to read URLs with hCards and append geo markup wherever it is missing and can be found from public geocoding services (currently covering US and Canada): I was hoping to add some more functionality before posting it to the wiki, but Ryan wrote such a nice explanation of why this is useful. Here's my geo-lacking hCard mapped on Google using this and Brian's geo-to-KML service: Peace, Scott From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 01:09:29 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 01:10:57 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues In-Reply-To: <56ECC621-BF74-40B1-9010-B986E2444A1C@technorati.com> References: <16DE6A8B-5A55-44B0-AF65-01E029E62007@randomchaos.com> <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <56ECC621-BF74-40B1-9010-B986E2444A1C@technorati.com> Message-ID: In message <56ECC621-BF74-40B1-9010-B986E2444A1C@technorati.com>, Ryan King writes >> Who can edit the sign-on >> page? > >I can. > >I've updated it to read: "Your user name (it must be a WikiWord)" Thank you. but I'm not sure that "WikiWord" will mean anything, to most people. Why not: Your username (must be written as one word, with two capitals LikeThis) or: Your username (must be written as one word, with two capitals, like: JohnDoe) the dummy username emboldened. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 01:12:17 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 01:13:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> Message-ID: <6cJkOmKhthIFFwYi@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Chris Casciano writes > >On Oct 2, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> In message <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com>, >> Chris Casciano writes >> >>>>>> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... >>>>> >>>>> I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. >>>> >>>> Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, >>>>towns, >>>> cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are >>>> polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. >>> >>> >>> You could outline any territory as a series of geos if the need ever >>> arose. >> >> In other words, "the capacity to describe a polygon". > >Totally ignored the point I was trying to make... and that is that >describing a border - of any shape - by the use of a collection of geo >coords (at whatever precision) is a totally different task then >defining an individual point and its precision. Totally ignored the point I was trying to make... and that is that it would perhaps be better to have the capacity to describe a polygon. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 01:13:27 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 01:14:58 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message , Colin Barrett writes >On Oct 2, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> In message , Kevin >> Marks writes >> >>> Andy, you're missing the point. >> >> No, I'm not. >> >>> If >> >>> If >> >> That's not a point, that's a conditional conjecture. >> >>> We don't >> >> Who don't? > >Instead of criticizing the structure of his argument, why not reply to >the content? Perhaps you missed th fact that I did. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 01:14:47 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 01:16:16 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <3ee2ea02f06f939d3f890301d049090d@technorati.com> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <3ee2ea02f06f939d3f890301d049090d@technorati.com> Message-ID: In message <3ee2ea02f06f939d3f890301d049090d@technorati.com>, Kevin Marks writes > >On Oct 2, 2006, at 3:56 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> In message , Kevin >> Marks writes >> >>> Andy, you're missing the point. >> >> No, I'm not. > >This was a discussion on accuracy of co-ordinates, and I was developing >that theme. As was I. > If you want to start one on 'representing polygonal objects as >microfromats', start a new thread Who made you god? >and stop trolling this one Abuse noted. >>> We don't >> >> Who don't? > >OK, I don't. Thank you. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 01:17:39 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 01:18:57 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <200610020731.k927V3752700@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> <87A60159-E1F0-44F3-A6CB-227F630F5C77@technorati.com> <002901c6e686$29998190$116bacca@Michael> Message-ID: In message , Ryan King writes >you don't need to have lat/long to get distance. There are plenty of >services for translating human readable addresses into machine >readable values. But with much less accuracy than lat/ long -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Tue Oct 3 02:16:40 2006 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Tue Oct 3 02:16:44 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: On 10/1/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > I think "$" is a unit of measuring currency, and "barrel" is a unit > of measuring oil, which in this case is the product the currency > references. I disagree. There are plenty of other things that can be sold by the barrel, and I doubt there are many instances of $/barrel being used without oil being specifically referenced. I think it's fairly clear that $ is a unit of currency, 'barrel' is a measure of volume, and $/barrel is a measure of currency/volume in its own right, similar to other composite measures like m.p.h. -Ciaran From timber at lava.net Tue Oct 3 03:12:14 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:12:17 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <8B521D50-27C4-487F-AD5D-48B304A7E011@lava.net> On Oct 2, 2006, at 10:13 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Colin > Barrett writes > >> On Oct 2, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >>> In message , Kevin >>> Marks writes >>> >>>> Andy, you're missing the point. >>> >>> No, I'm not. >>> >>>> If >>> >>>> If >>> >>> That's not a point, that's a conditional conjecture. >>> >>>> We don't >>> >>> Who don't? >> >> Instead of criticizing the structure of his argument, why not reply >> to >> the content? > > Perhaps you missed th fact that I did. Minimally, at best. "No I'm not," is, I suppose, criticizing the content, yes, but not in a constructive, or useful way. If you can't do this, then just don't post. "That's not a point, that's a conditional conjecture." Structural argument. Again, completely unhelpful to anyone. See above. "Who don't?" Your pedantry is becoming quite grating. If something is unclear, it's fine to point it out, but then you could go on after making a logical assumption about what he meant. I don't think I'm the only person on this list who is more than a little annoyed by your antics as of late. I have no problem with your ideas, and I think many of them are useful. However, you seem to be very resistant to debating things with others, which is the entire point of this list. If everyone on this list behaved the way you do, we would be spewing "No I don't"s "Yes you do"s at each other until we were blue in the face. Disgruntledly yours, -Colin From timber at lava.net Tue Oct 3 03:17:33 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:17:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues In-Reply-To: References: <16DE6A8B-5A55-44B0-AF65-01E029E62007@randomchaos.com> <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <56ECC621-BF74-40B1-9010-B986E2444A1C@technorati.com> Message-ID: <02EB5D58-054C-4E39-8C76-AB037416BA63@lava.net> On Oct 2, 2006, at 10:09 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <56ECC621-BF74-40B1-9010-B986E2444A1C@technorati.com>, Ryan > King writes > >>> Who can edit the sign-on >>> page? >> >> I can. >> >> I've updated it to read: "Your user name (it must be a WikiWord)" > > > Thank you. but I'm not sure that "WikiWord" will mean anything, to > most > people. Or, in the true style of a wiki, have WikiWord link to a page about WikiWords, explaining what they are and how to format them -- see http://microformats.org/wiki/WikiWord , which I just created). -Colin From timber at lava.net Tue Oct 3 03:18:15 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Tue Oct 3 03:18:17 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues In-Reply-To: <451A4B96.504@gmail.com> References: <16DE6A8B-5A55-44B0-AF65-01E029E62007@randomchaos.com> <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <451A4B96.504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B608036-FF67-4110-ADD3-627B1AE609A3@lava.net> On Sep 26, 2006, at 11:59 PM, brian suda wrote: > As for creating accounts. You UserName has to be CamelCase[1], there > should be a note about it on the sign-up page, it is on the FAQs, *Any > Suggestions about how to make it more visible* are certainly welcome? Mine isn't. It's Colin_Barrett. Is this a Bad Thing? -Colin From charles.roper at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 05:13:41 2006 From: charles.roper at gmail.com (Charles Roper) Date: Tue Oct 3 05:13:44 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues In-Reply-To: <5B608036-FF67-4110-ADD3-627B1AE609A3@lava.net> References: <16DE6A8B-5A55-44B0-AF65-01E029E62007@randomchaos.com> <2tD3iwtxUZGFFwKn@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <451A4B96.504@gmail.com> <5B608036-FF67-4110-ADD3-627B1AE609A3@lava.net> Message-ID: On 03/10/06, Colin Barrett wrote: > On Sep 26, 2006, at 11:59 PM, brian suda wrote: > > > As for creating accounts. You UserName has to be CamelCase[1], there > > should be a note about it on the sign-up page, it is on the FAQs, *Any > > Suggestions about how to make it more visible* are certainly welcome? > > Mine isn't. It's Colin_Barrett. Is this a Bad Thing? Mine is SXBRC. I think the username simply has to *start* with an uppercase letter. -- Charles Roper www.sxbrc.org.uk From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Oct 3 05:14:36 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Oct 3 05:14:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> On Oct 3, 2006, at 4:16 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote: > I think it's fairly clear that $ is a unit of currency, 'barrel' is a > measure of volume, and $/barrel is a measure of currency/volume in its > own right, similar to other composite measures like m.p.h. Sure we can conceptualize it like that, but if no one is publishing it like that, how will we microformat it? I've never seen "$/barrel" on the web, so this looks like an edge case to me. I have seen "$__ per barrel", and that splits the unit of currency and the unit of measuring the product, just like "$__ per share" (implied 1 unit) or "$__ for 2 widgets". It looks to me like splitting up the unit of currency and the unit of measuring the referenced product would cover 80% of real world examples, so I'm not seeing the value in exploring the edge case where the two are combined. If it's clear that my product is a barrel of oil (which hListing can make clear) and my currency is US dollars (which a simpler currency microformat can make clear), why can't we leave it to a computer to figure out how to most usefully combine those two pieces of information? Peace, Scott From jason2005 at jasonjobe.com Tue Oct 3 08:29:44 2006 From: jason2005 at jasonjobe.com (Jason Jobe) Date: Tue Oct 3 08:29:48 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard Message-ID: Hello, I'm new to the list and just learning about microformats. Cool stuff. My question / proposal is this. Is there and should there be something I will refer to as an alias (hAlias)? The motivation to have and offer one's alias is to maintain a greater level of privacy. Suppose I want to give someone a way to contact me without divulging all my vital (more permanent and personal) attributes. Sort of a disposable email, or such. I can imagine that 3rd party services would offer some privacy enhanced email services, etc. Basically, I want a way to introduce myself and provide some contact information without requiring a full disclosure. Schema-wise this is really just a handle, optional description, and URL. I look forward to your comments and suggestions. -jason From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Tue Oct 3 09:04:10 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Tue Oct 3 09:04:27 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452289FA.1@lachy.id.au> Jason Jobe wrote: > Hello, > > I'm new to the list and just learning about microformats. Cool stuff. > > My question / proposal is this. Please read the process http://microformats.org/wiki/process > Is there and should there be something I will refer to as an alias > (hAlias)? No. > The motivation to have and offer one's alias is to maintain a > greater level of privacy. Suppose I want to give someone a way to > contact me without divulging all my vital (more permanent and personal) > attributes. Sort of a disposable email, or such... > > Basically, I want a way to introduce myself and provide some contact > information without requiring a full disclosure. > > Schema-wise this is really just a handle, optional description, and URL. The information you put in your hCard is up to you. You can just write an hCard with a nickname, url, a disposable e-mail address and whatever description you like. There is no reason to define a new format for that. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Oct 3 09:09:54 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Oct 3 09:10:03 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard In-Reply-To: <452289FA.1@lachy.id.au> References: <452289FA.1@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: >> The motivation to have and offer one's alias is to maintain a >> greater level of privacy. Suppose I want to give someone a way to >> contact me without divulging all my vital (more permanent and >> personal) attributes. Sort of a disposable email, or such... >> Basically, I want a way to introduce myself and provide some >> contact information without requiring a full disclosure. >> Schema-wise this is really just a handle, optional description, >> and URL. > > The information you put in your hCard is up to you. You can just > write an hCard with a nickname, url, a disposable e-mail address > and whatever description you like. There is no reason to define a > new format for that. Yeah, I'm confused about this. Isn't the whole point of having an alias to keep it distinct from your normal identity? Identifying it as an alias of your normal identity seems to defeat that purpose. Peace, Scott From fberriman at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 09:12:27 2006 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Tue Oct 3 09:12:29 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/3/06, Jason Jobe wrote: > Hello, Hi Jason :) > I'm new to the list and just learning about microformats. Cool stuff. > > My question / proposal is this. > > Is there and should there be something I will refer to as an alias > (hAlias)? The motivation to have and offer one's alias is to maintain > a greater level of privacy. Suppose I want to give someone a way to > contact me without divulging all my vital (more permanent and > personal) attributes. Sort of a disposable email, or such. I can > imagine that 3rd party services would offer some privacy enhanced > email services, etc. hCard already fits this. For hCard the only required information is a name - and of course, the name you choose to use online is completely up to you! Any other information is completely optional. In theory, you could maintain two identities online realistically - one real, and one alternate identity. > Basically, I want a way to introduce myself and provide some contact > information without requiring a full disclosure. > > Schema-wise this is really just a handle, optional description, and URL. > > I look forward to your comments and suggestions. > > -jason > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com From fberriman at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 09:13:58 2006 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Tue Oct 3 09:14:00 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard In-Reply-To: References: <452289FA.1@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: On 10/3/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Oct 3, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: > > >> The motivation to have and offer one's alias is to maintain a > >> greater level of privacy. Suppose I want to give someone a way to > >> contact me without divulging all my vital (more permanent and > >> personal) attributes. Sort of a disposable email, or such... > >> Basically, I want a way to introduce myself and provide some > >> contact information without requiring a full disclosure. > >> Schema-wise this is really just a handle, optional description, > >> and URL. > > > > The information you put in your hCard is up to you. You can just > > write an hCard with a nickname, url, a disposable e-mail address > > and whatever description you like. There is no reason to define a > > new format for that. > > Yeah, I'm confused about this. Isn't the whole point of having an > alias to keep it distinct from your normal identity? Identifying it > as an alias of your normal identity seems to defeat that purpose. > Sure. I didn't say you had to connect them in any way :P I was just thinking from a maintenance of information point of view. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com From fberriman at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 09:17:09 2006 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Tue Oct 3 09:17:12 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard In-Reply-To: References: <452289FA.1@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: On 10/3/06, Frances Berriman wrote: > Sure. I didn't say you had to connect them in any way :P I was just > thinking from a maintenance of information point of view. > Ugh. Ignore. It generally helps if I read an email before I respond. Anyway. I assume he means that it's more of a fake identity, or a limitation of his normal identity (so like me-lite). Alias is just the wrong terminology. -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com From charles.roper at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 10:56:26 2006 From: charles.roper at gmail.com (Charles Roper) Date: Tue Oct 3 10:56:29 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Further reading for those interested in Species Message-ID: I thought for those interested in the species uF, a little further reading to help in understanding the issues involved in species naming and species name usage. Here's a really good introduction to some of the issues: http://www.ubio.org/index.php?pagename=background_intro And here's an interesting paper on taxonomic naming and RDF: http://jbi.nhm.ku.edu/index.php/jbi/article/view/25 Being involved in the field of biodiversity informatics, I'm really interested in the use of microformats and see the development of the species microformat as being very timely - there's a real need for something simple and open within the community. What with climate change being the biggest challenge currently faced by mankind, and the study of biodiversity being a large part of that challenge, you could almost say that microformats are, in their own small way, helping save the planet. Charles -- Charles Roper www.sxbrc.org.uk From kmarks at technorati.com Tue Oct 3 11:49:25 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Tue Oct 3 11:51:06 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geographic polygons [was geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <6cJkOmKhthIFFwYi@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> <6cJkOmKhthIFFwYi@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:12 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , > Chris Casciano writes > >> Totally ignored the point I was trying to make... and that is that >> describing a border - of any shape - by the use of a collection of >> geo >> coords (at whatever precision) is a totally different task then >> defining an individual point and its precision. > > Totally ignored the point I was trying to make... and that is that it > would perhaps be better to have the capacity to describe a polygon. They aren't mutually exclusive, which is why I suggested separating polygons into a separate thread. There is an HTML way to express 2D polygons in image maps, so what we would need is a way to georeference the imagemaps to translate these back to earth-based co-ordinates. For imagery in lat-long space, or for close-in zooms, just specifying the lat/long of the corners would be adequate; for other projections such as Peterson, Roberts or Mercator, you may need to specify the transform with more care, if trapezoidal interpolation give significant distortion. From gl at brixlogic.com Tue Oct 3 12:17:30 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Oct 3 12:17:34 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> Here are some additional examples from the Web of currency mixed with measures, some of which differ from the "$__ per barrel" pattern and a suggested new conceptualization that seems to work with them. http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples#Real-World_Examples Here is another suggested conceptualization that seems to match what's on the Web: $ is not a unit, $ is a currency. "Dollar" "Cent" are the units of the "USD" currency. Just like length is not a unit, but meter and foot are. Currency measures have a default unit (for USD, it's the dollar), that is sometimes omitted in the representation of currency amounts. *Example 1* So "$25 per barrel" is really "$25 dollar per barrel", but a computer can figure this out from: $25 per barrel BLL is the UNECE code for barrel. See http://microformats.org/wiki/measure-formats#UNECE *Example 2* "25 (USD per barrel)" is really "25 $ dollar per barrel", "$" is the currency, "dollar per barrel" is the unit but a computer can figure this out from: 25 (USD per barrel) *Example 3* Similarly in "$150K per year" the currency is "$" but the "unit is thousands of dollars per year", but the computer can figure it out from: $150K per year ANN is the UNECE code for year. See http://microformats.org/wiki/measure-formats#UNECE Let me know what you think. I'll put this on the wiki later. Guillaume From jeremyboggs at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 13:07:03 2006 From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs) Date: Tue Oct 3 13:06:42 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] History Microformat Message-ID: Hi List, I thought it might be useful to move this to its own thread, instead of under the "dated-currency" thread. I hope that's ok. >> i would be very interested in helping to explore a "history" >> microformat. In my spare time, I've been collecting examples of >> history timelines, after discussions a few months ago on this list >> about the inability of using hCalendar to mark up before common >> era dates, and other considerations for marking up historical >> dates and spans of time.[1] I've collected examples of uses of BCE >> dates and timelines in general, but I could easily expand the >> scope of my inquiry. >> >> > > Starting to collect these at history-examples on the wiki, and > making notes at history-brainstorming would be a useful start. > > Thanks Kevin. I've created the history-examples page (http:// microformats.org/wiki/history-examples) and am currently populating it with my research. I hope that I'm doing this right, but will be glad to make corrections or changes if I'm incorrectly following the process. Best, Jeremy From timber at lava.net Tue Oct 3 13:33:33 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Tue Oct 3 13:33:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <7B1F98C2-2C21-4A15-9CF2-B996BDA97BA3@lava.net> On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:17 AM, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Let me know what you think. I'll put this on the wiki later. The presence of UNECE codes for various units is encouraging. This proposal is shaping up nicely. Could you think of other "client" uses for just the measurement format? Already described in this thread were some excellent uses for measurement + currency (e.g. searching job listings). Also, I'm curious to know your thoughts on how this would tie in to the proposed historical uF. Would the entire currency+measure get wrapped in a history? That doesn't seem entirely necessary: the size of a barrel of oil doesn't change (right?). Only the $ currency fluctuates. Good work, -Colin From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Oct 3 14:33:16 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Oct 3 14:33:23 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2006, at 2:17 PM, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Here are some additional examples from the Web of currency mixed > with measures, some of which differ from the "$__ per barrel" > pattern and a suggested new conceptualization that seems to work > with them. > > http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples#Real-World_Examples > > Here is another suggested conceptualization that seems to match > what's on the Web: > > $ is not a unit, $ is a currency. "Dollar" "Cent" are the units of > the "USD" currency. Just like length is not a unit, but meter and > foot are. > > Currency measures have a default unit (for USD, it's the dollar), > that is sometimes omitted in the representation of currency amounts. > > *Example 1* > > So "$25 per barrel" is really "$25 dollar per barrel", but a > computer can figure this out from: > > $ abbr>25 per span> barrel > > BLL is the UNECE code for barrel. See http://microformats.org/wiki/ > measure-formats#UNECE > > *Example 2* > > "25 (USD per barrel)" is really "25 $ dollar per barrel", "$" is > the currency, "dollar per barrel" is the unit but a computer can > figure this out from: > > 25 (USD abbr> per title="BLL">barrel) > > *Example 3* > > Similarly in "$150K per year" the currency is "$" but the "unit is > thousands of dollars per year", but the computer can figure it out > from: > > $ abbr>150K class="unitdivider">per year span> > > ANN is the UNECE code for year. See http://microformats.org/wiki/ > measure-formats#UNECE > > > Let me know what you think. I'll put this on the wiki later. I think this is a good example of the benefits of modularization. I think all of these various measurements would be more useful if they were more widely published, and I think the best way to get them widely published is to keep them as separate microformats addressing specific problems. We'll end up missing the most important information related to currency if we attempt an ocean-boiling currency-and-everything-related microformat. For example, two of the above examples have no markup indicating the value of the price. It doesn't do much good to know you're talking about barrels of oil and US dollars if I don't know what the value is. I assume this was just an oversight, but it's the kind of oversight we can avoid by keeping currency focused on currency and relegating everything else to more specific microformats (e.g. history, measurement, hListing). $50 is $50 whether I'm spending it on a barrel of oil or receiving it for an hour of work. Peace, Scott From gl at brixlogic.com Tue Oct 3 14:50:53 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Oct 3 14:51:00 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <4522DB3D.5090607@brixlogic.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > I think this is a good example of the benefits of modularization. I > think all of these various measurements would be more useful if they > were more widely published, and I think the best way to get them > widely published is to keep them as separate microformats addressing > specific problems. We'll end up missing the most important > information related to currency if we attempt an ocean-boiling > currency-and-everything-related microformat. There are still 2 separate sections for measure and currency, and I intend to keep it this way. But it was useful to look at both right away to see how they could be used as modules. > > For example, two of the above examples have no markup indicating the > value of the price. It doesn't do much good to know you're talking > about barrels of oil and US dollars if I don't know what the value > is. I assume this was just an oversight, but it's the kind of > oversight we can avoid by keeping currency focused on currency and > relegating everything else to more specific microformats (e.g. > history, measurement, hListing). $50 is $50 whether I'm spending it > on a barrel of oil or receiving it for an hour of work. This was an oversight as I was focusing on the aspects at hand. It should have read: 25 (USD per barrel) Although in some simple contexts, I don't think "value" is required. 25USD What do you think? Guillaume From gl at brixlogic.com Tue Oct 3 14:53:37 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Oct 3 14:53:42 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <7B1F98C2-2C21-4A15-9CF2-B996BDA97BA3@lava.net> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> <7B1F98C2-2C21-4A15-9CF2-B996BDA97BA3@lava.net> Message-ID: <4522DBE1.20702@brixlogic.com> Colin wrote: > This proposal is shaping up nicely. Could you think of other "client" > uses for just the measurement format? Already described in this thread > were some excellent uses for measurement + currency (e.g. searching > job listings). Thanks Colin. For just the measurement format, of course automatic localization based on a browser preference, but I imagine you already thought about this one. > Also, I'm curious to know your thoughts on how this would tie in to > the proposed historical uF. Would the entire currency+measure get > wrapped in a history? That doesn't seem entirely necessary: the size > of a barrel of oil doesn't change (right?). Only the $ currency > fluctuates. In my adaptation of XBRL currency semantics to uF, I have explored the use of empty anchors as references to global definitions of units instead of redundant local definitions, but I haven't got any feedback from the community on this yet. See http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats#XBRL This is not just relevant for the history uF but also for any tabular representation (ex. financial statements) where you don't want to repeat the unit/currency in each cell. See http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples#Use_of_currency_amounts_in_tables Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 15:05:37 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:06:50 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <8B521D50-27C4-487F-AD5D-48B304A7E011@lava.net> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <8B521D50-27C4-487F-AD5D-48B304A7E011@lava.net> Message-ID: <4Rt0NzPx6tIFFw58@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <8B521D50-27C4-487F-AD5D-48B304A7E011@lava.net>, Colin Barrett writes >>> Instead of criticizing the structure of his argument, why not reply >>>to >>> the content? >> >> Perhaps you missed th fact that I did. > >Minimally, at best. So, first you insinuate that I did not reply to the content, then you acknowledge that I did. Can you see what's wrong with that, yet? >Your pedantry is becoming quite grating. Someone once wrote that "'Pedant' is what people who care about accuracy are called, by people who don't" Don't you think that pedantry is important, when considering matters relating to specifications and standards, in computing? >I don't think I'm the only person on this list who is more than a >little annoyed by your antics as of late. Oh dear. [...] >you seem to be very resistant to debating things with others, which is >the entire point of this list. On the contrary; I'm very, very keen to debate ideas - but not with people who use dishonesty as a debating tool, or who tell me to "shut up", in not so many words, when they don't have an argument to defend. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 15:08:42 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:10:07 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <4521BBB1.50409@lachy.id.au> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <4521BBB1.50409@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: In message <4521BBB1.50409@lachy.id.au>, Lachlan Hunt writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message , Colin >> Barrett writes >> >>>> Or the capacity to describe a polygon... >>> I call the 80/20 rule into effect here. >> Fine, I'm confident that more than 80% of countries, counties, >>towns, >> cities, gardens, parks, nature reserves, and industrial estates are >> polygons, and fewer than 20% are circles. > >You really missed the point. No, I do not. > Think about it like this. If you were to pick up a map and point out >roughly where you took some photo of your kids in a park (or whatever) >and you wanted to pick up a pen and mark the location, you're not going >to sit there and carefully outline the polygon shape of the park, >you're going to draw something like an X or a circle to show the rough >location. That's not the "it" I was discussing; but I might very well draw a polygon, depending on the context. >That's the concept that this thread is discussing. No, tops *one* of the concepts that this thread is discussing. Or is it now your own, personal thread? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From gl at brixlogic.com Tue Oct 3 14:08:08 2006 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:11:25 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <7B1F98C2-2C21-4A15-9CF2-B996BDA97BA3@lava.net> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> <7B1F98C2-2C21-4A15-9CF2-B996BDA97BA3@lava.net> Message-ID: <4522D138.2050907@brixlogic.com> Colin wrote: > This proposal is shaping up nicely. Could you think of other "client" > uses for just the measurement format? Already described in this thread > were some excellent uses for measurement + currency (e.g. searching > job listings). Thanks Colin. For just the measurement format, of course automatic localization based on a browser preference, but I imagine you already thought about this one. > Also, I'm curious to know your thoughts on how this would tie in to > the proposed historical uF. Would the entire currency+measure get > wrapped in a history? That doesn't seem entirely necessary: the size > of a barrel of oil doesn't change (right?). Only the $ currency > fluctuates. In my adaptation of XBRL currency semantics to uF, I have explored the use of empty anchors as references to global definitions of units instead of redundant local definitions, but I haven't got any feedback from the community on this yet. See http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats#XBRL This is not just relevant for the history uF but also for any tabular representation (ex. financial statements) where you don't want to repeat the unit/currency in each cell. See http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples#Use_of_currency_amounts_in_tables Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 15:10:58 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:12:07 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <200610022310.k92NAs738232@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: In message , Kevin Marks writes >consider this URL: > >http://flickr.com/map/?&tag=yankeestadium&fLat=40.828081&fLon= - >73.920821&zl=7 That's showing a blank page, with just a Flickr header, for me. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From timber at lava.net Tue Oct 3 15:15:19 2006 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:15:21 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <4Rt0NzPx6tIFFw58@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <8B521D50-27C4-487F-AD5D-48B304A7E011@lava.net> <4Rt0NzPx6tIFFw58@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <4F560F4A-2B28-47FA-825D-B7C7F70B69ED@lava.net> On Oct 3, 2006, at 12:05 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Your pedantry is becoming quite grating. > > Someone once wrote that "'Pedant' is what people who care about > accuracy > are called, by people who don't" Don't you think that pedantry is > important, when considering matters relating to specifications and > standards, in computing? There is a great difference between concern for accuracy and pedantry. If you cannot make that distinction, then well, I honestly don't have anything more to say to you. I'd appreciate it if you would stop trolling this thread -- I certainly won't be making any more replies to your posts in it. -Colin From kmarks at technorati.com Tue Oct 3 15:20:39 2006 From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:20:43 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <200610022310.k92NAs738232@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: <6d19797c83312f33684c4a12ddb6be5b@technorati.com> You'll need a Flash-compatible browser - their geotagging is Flash-based at the moment. (we'd better get HTML-defining and evangelising to convert our Flickr friends) On Oct 3, 2006, at 3:10 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Kevin > Marks writes > >> consider this URL: >> >> http://flickr.com/map/?&tag=yankeestadium&fLat=40.828081&fLon= - >> 73.920821&zl=7 > > That's showing a blank page, with just a Flickr header, for me. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 15:23:51 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:25:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: <4F560F4A-2B28-47FA-825D-B7C7F70B69ED@lava.net> References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <8B521D50-27C4-487F-AD5D-48B304A7E011@lava.net> <4Rt0NzPx6tIFFw58@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <4F560F4A-2B28-47FA-825D-B7C7F70B69ED@lava.net> Message-ID: <908lUjU3LuIFFwrs@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <4F560F4A-2B28-47FA-825D-B7C7F70B69ED@lava.net>, Colin Barrett writes >There is a great difference between concern for accuracy and pedantry. >If you cannot make that distinction, then well, I honestly don't have >anything more to say to you. Every cloud has a sliver lining. >I'd appreciate it if you would stop trolling this thread How can I, when I have never started? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 15:26:45 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:28:14 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki spamming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >I've just reverted some porn spamming from the main page of the Wiki - >someone might want to remove the user concerned. I dd so again, a few hours ago. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Tue Oct 3 15:14:58 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:34:48 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard In-Reply-To: References: <452289FA.1@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <4522E0E2.8090900@lachy.id.au> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Oct 3, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: >> The information you put in your hCard is up to you. You can just >> write an hCard with a nickname... > > Yeah, I'm confused about this. Isn't the whole point of having an > alias to keep it distinct from your normal identity? Identifying it > as an alias of your normal identity seems to defeat that purpose. I don't understand what you mean. An alias is just an alternative name for yourself and the hCard nickname field seems to fulfil that purpose just fine. You don't have to provide your real name if you don't want to. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Oct 3 15:38:18 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:39:41 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki spamming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > >>I've just reverted some porn spamming from the main page of the Wiki - >>someone might want to remove the user concerned. > >I dd so again, a few hours ago. And just. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Oct 3 15:47:06 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Oct 3 15:47:15 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Currency + Unit of measurement (Was: Currency+Product) In-Reply-To: <4522DB3D.5090607@brixlogic.com> References: <56374A8B-7B98-45E2-9C0C-CD3F8498C3DC@randomchaos.com> <451AC919.8090102@brixlogic.com> <451ACF32.3020301@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609280259ua2733d9ge587733463fe98a7@mail.gmail.com> <451BF01C.8020902@brixlogic.com> <5c2a5c380609290056w641a0e22x4a38d86f0bc56708@mail.gmail.com> <451D99AC.8020401@brixlogic.com> <6D0F9CD9-14E4-4C8D-96E5-6936287C18C4@randomchaos.com> <7E1615BD-BF33-4A18-80C7-D4D223453E7B@randomchaos.com> <4522B74A.6090805@brixlogic.com> <4522DB3D.5090607@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <75D4C8DC-EA95-4CA9-83DE-D7528F11FD74@randomchaos.com> On Oct 3, 2006, at 4:50 PM, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > There are still 2 separate sections for measure and currency, and I > intend to keep it this way. But it was useful to look at both right > away to see how they could be used as modules. I worry that thinking so much about a specific use of any microformat (i.e. in conjunction with another) will blind us to other uses. For example, if I want to describe a barrel of oil outside the context of currency, I would think the "oil" part would be pretty important, but that's missing from the examples because the focus is on the currency, not the oil. I'd suggest we defer exploration of combinations until after the individual microformats are further explored on their own. Peace, Scott From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Oct 3 16:13:44 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Oct 3 16:13:51 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAlias vs hCard In-Reply-To: <4522E0E2.8090900@lachy.id.au> References: <452289FA.1@lachy.id.au> <4522E0E2.8090900@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <65B2C88F-45EF-41AE-9EEA-90E7C583BC2A@randomchaos.com> On Oct 3, 2006, at 5:14 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: >> On Oct 3, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: >>> The information you put in your hCard is up to you. You can just >>> write an hCard with a nickname... >> Yeah, I'm confused about this. Isn't the whole point of having an >> alias to keep it distinct from your normal identity? Identifying >> it as an alias of your normal identity seems to defeat that purpose. > > I don't understand what you mean. An alias is just an alternative > name > for yourself and the hCard nickname field seems to fulfil that > purpose just fine. You don't have to provide your real name if you > don't want to. By starting my reply with "Yeah," I intended to communicate that my remarks were in agreement with yours. I see now that my "this" was ambiguous. I'm not confused about what you said, but rather about the thread subject of "hAlias vs hCard". I'd also like to thank you for approaching this perceived disagreement by calmly asking for and offering clarification. Peace, Scott From karl at w3.org Tue Oct 3 17:52:28 2006 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Tue Oct 3 17:52:45 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] GRDDL Primer and Microformats Message-ID: <327B6039-FF1F-408B-84D7-E3374AE43876@w3.org> In case you had not seen [[[ Microformats are simple conventions for embedding semantic markup for a specific domain in human-readable documents. In our example one of Jane's friends has marked up their schedule using the hCalendar microformat. The hCalendar microformat uses HTML class attributes to associate event related semantics with elements in the markup: ]]] -- GRDDL Primer http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:51:59 GMT -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From bewest at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 21:45:38 2006 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Tue Oct 3 21:45:41 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geographic polygons [was geo - accuracy of coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com> <9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <5D331469-E4A2-47CC-9867-121FECCBDFBB@placenamehere.com> <6cJkOmKhthIFFwYi@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <8ad71be30610032145w6311e5f6gf0a01cee285ea063@mail.gmail.com> Ah, that's interesting. So geo covers most of the task by describing the bounds of the image map, right? In addition you may need a way to describe the kind of projection used. Is that kind of like tagging? On 10/3/06, Kevin Marks wrote: > > On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:12 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > > In message , > > Chris Casciano writes > > > >> Totally ignored the point I was trying to make... and that is that > >> describing a border - of any shape - by the use of a collection of > >> geo > >> coords (at whatever precision) is a totally different task then > >> defining an individual point and its precision. > > > > Totally ignored the point I was trying to make... and that is that it > > would perhaps be better to have the capacity to describe a polygon. > > They aren't mutually exclusive, which is why I suggested separating > polygons into a separate thread. There is an HTML way to express 2D > polygons in image maps, so what we would need is a way to georeference > the imagemaps to translate these back to earth-based co-ordinates. > > For imagery in lat-long space, or for close-in zooms, just specifying > the lat/long of the corners would be adequate; for other projections > such as Peterson, Roberts or Mercator, you may need to specify the > transform with more care, if trapezoidal interpolation give significant > distortion. > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From conor at argolon.com Tue Oct 3 23:55:12 2006 From: conor at argolon.com (Conor O'Neill) Date: Tue Oct 3 23:55:08 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Live Writer and microformats Message-ID: <45235AD0.7080802@argolon.com> I'm not sure if any of you spotted this as it was not part of the original release notes but Windows Live Writer now has a plug-in which allows you to insert hCalendar events in your blog posts. You can also search for events in Eventful and paste them in and thirdly, Live Clipboard now works from Eventful to Live Writer which is a fabulous real world example of Live Clipboard and hCalendar. I'm really impressed that MS have done this. Fingers crossed they start supporting some of the other microformats. I wrote more about it over at argolon.com and I originally saw it in a video interview that Jon Udell did with Jack Ozzie and JJ Allaire over at http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/screenroom/livewriter_flv.html. Conor From mdagn at spraci.com Wed Oct 4 00:06:47 2006 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Wed Oct 4 00:05:54 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] geo - fuzzy blobs (was: accuracy of coordinates) References: <4a31cd840610021248j2a28bcdbyb81e56ea45b3dd2b@mail.gmail.com><9W9FMb7y1XIFFw5m@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <4521BBB1.50409@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <00a301c6e783$a88eca20$116bacca@Michael> > > Think about it like this. If you were to pick up a map and point out > >roughly where you took some photo of your kids in a park (or whatever) > >and you wanted to pick up a pen and mark the location, you're not going > >to sit there and carefully outline the polygon shape of the park, > >you're going to draw something like an X or a circle to show the rough > >location. this is something like what I meant.... sort of like "somewhere near there..." ... when someone means a fuzzy blob rather than an exact point and doesn't have the data that would be required to precisely mark it up as a polygon or specify a radius. (polygons could be good for describing an area accurately but I think that is a different thing - I'm talking about cases where the available data is just not precise enough for that kind of thing - and for uses where that level of precision might not be needed) Some people suggested using the number of decimal places. I guess in that case I probably need to make sure I never store lat/long as floating point numbers in case I lose some zeros at the end? From bewest at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 00:29:40 2006 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Wed Oct 4 00:29:44 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Live Writer and microformats In-Reply-To: <45235AD0.7080802@argolon.com> References: <45235AD0.7080802@argolon.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30610040029p4d474af6nf35ffa038b516422@mail.gmail.com> Quick Summary: * MF mention starts about a quarter of the way in. * hCalendar in particular Neat. It's a bit long; microformats are mentioned about a quarter of the way in after talking about "tables" and "links." Much of the discussion that follows is about microformats, hCalendar in particular. Eventful is also mentioned favorably. Just past the halfway point, the developers start turning discussion more towards live clipboard. They briefly wrap up mentioning the benefits of federated publishing services, but don't touch on the fact the benefits stem from the fact that microformats are visible data. They go on to talk about plugins for Live Writer. On 10/3/06, Conor O'Neill wrote: > I'm not sure if any of you spotted this as it was not part of the > original release notes but Windows Live Writer now has a plug-in which > allows you to insert hCalendar events in your blog posts. You can also > search for events in Eventful and paste them in and thirdly, Live > Clipboard now works from Eventful to Live Writer which is a fabulous > real world example of Live Clipboard and hCalendar. > > I'm really impressed that MS have done this. Fingers crossed they start > supporting some of the other microformats. I wrote more about it over at > argolon.com and I originally saw it in a video interview that Jon Udell > did with Jack Ozzie and JJ Allaire over at > http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/screenroom/livewriter_flv.html. > > Conor > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From tom.armitage at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 02:12:58 2006 From: tom.armitage at gmail.com (Tom Armitage) Date: Wed Oct 4 02:13:01 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <948601250610040212g45476374o633e551f5aa6d123@mail.gmail.com> On 28/09/06, Drew McLellan wrote: > That's the ticket. But you'd need a mixture of name and class to > account for everything... e.g. > >
> > >
> > (obviously incomplete example) > > drew. I'm not sure that name fields are appropriate; whilst they *should* be freely renamable, very often, at the back-end integration stage, things like this may get changed, or (depending on the system) may be unworkable. I've been thinking about this a while, and I think that one potential way of getting around the "form fields wanting data that is microformattable" issue is by making a _minor_ change to the microformat spec itself. Namely: whilst microformat classes on most elements indicate what the element *is*, microformat classes on inputs, selects, and textareas within form fields (ie: semantically correct input elements) indicate *what the form desires as input*. So: an hCard on a div and some lis indicates that I've got a contact of some form; a form with class "vcard" and various suitably classed inputs indicates a form that demands a vcard. That's it. As a proposla. it obviously requires some refinement, but it's easily enforceable in any application (because it's just based aronud parsing html) and it keeps the microformatting to the class attribute, where it's unlikely to ever be in conflict with any other demands. Thoughts? t. From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 05:13:09 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Oct 4 05:13:10 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] GRDDL Primer and Microformats In-Reply-To: <327B6039-FF1F-408B-84D7-E3374AE43876@w3.org> References: <327B6039-FF1F-408B-84D7-E3374AE43876@w3.org> Message-ID: <21e770780610040513k6ae22524r638cc634e802bb80@mail.gmail.com> Karl has keenly spotted the use of Microformats in the GRDDL primer. FULL DISCLOSURE: I am part of the W3C working group that has been trying to get GRDDL moved forward with the help of Microformats. If anyone is interested you can continue reading. The GRDDL working group has more information on their webpage[1]. From that you can read the public archives of the mailing list[2] if you wanted to read-up on what has already happened. More importantly, we have just started a public mailing list for comments for the use-cases[3] and the primer[4]. I encourage everyone to read over both documents (or atleast the microformats sections). The use-cases demonstrate some of the potentials with GRDDL and Microformats, and the primer is a more step-by-step description of how to implements some of these ideas. Any feedback is greatly welcomed. I personally wrote a big chunk of the "Buying a Guitar Example" primer, so if it doesn't make sense you can blame me :) Thanks, -brian [1] - http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/ [2] - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/ [3] - http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-grddl-scenarios-20061002/ [4] - http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ On 10/4/06, Karl Dubost wrote: > In case you had not seen > > [[[ > Microformats are simple conventions for embedding semantic markup for > a specific domain in human-readable documents. In our example one of > Jane's friends has marked up their schedule using the hCalendar > microformat. The hCalendar microformat uses HTML class attributes to > associate event related semantics with elements in the markup: > ]]] -- GRDDL Primer > http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ > Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:51:59 GMT > > > -- > Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ > W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead > QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ > *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From bdarcus.lists at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 06:59:48 2006 From: bdarcus.lists at gmail.com (Bruce D'Arcus) Date: Wed Oct 4 06:59:52 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art? In-Reply-To: <7DA66362-6E36-4A7B-B049-404192682F82@lava.net> References: <84ce626f0610012057h170d72bbte93ba17417d66227@mail.gmail.com> <7DA66362-6E36-4A7B-B049-404192682F82@lava.net> Message-ID: Just a quick followup on the Apple patent application: It turns out the patent office does not review outside comments (!), but I did find some more stuff, including relating to our work at the OpenOffice bibliographic project. More here if you're curious: Bruce From ajturner at highearthorbit.com Wed Oct 4 07:01:29 2006 From: ajturner at highearthorbit.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Wed Oct 4 07:01:31 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo Radius, Area of Interest Message-ID: <4a31cd840610040701o3eb3eb65xf3ee168352d44ead@mail.gmail.com> There have been some great ideas and thoughts that poured through the list yesterday. Here's an attempt to summarize and re-gather thoughts and needs. I think there are couple of use cases people have thrown out there, each with their own problems and possible solutions (completely up for discussion). I just want to have us arguing about the appropriate topics and not bashing head on what the actual problem is. :) --- 1) Precision Summary: ability to mark the approximate area these lat/lon coordinates apply to due to not sure of exactly where something was, or imprecise measuring device Example: have lat/lon of the center of a park, and took pictures at various places in the park. Problems: users probably don't know that 0.0001 degree = 11.1 meters at the Equator - but also varies depending on the latitude. Also, dropping digits off the end doesn't specify if 41.345 is "inaccurate", or really accurate 41.3450000 (b/c zeros would be dropped when stored in code as a number, though not as a string) Solution? specify a precision that is +/- a distance. e.g. "give or take 10 meters 2) Radius Summary: rough area that the coordinates apply to Example: expected landing area for a parachutist/rover Solution? allow 42 meters 3) Feature area Summary: coordinates are the center of a larger area of a certain type of unknown size Example: Took a picture of a mountain or a city. Want to just say, the mountain is at Lat x Lon and is a mountain in size/area Solution?: featuretypetag="mountain" as used by GeoRSS 4) Polygon/line Summary: lay out a track/line, or define a specific boundary of a location Example: A hike or a plot of land definition, such as for Real Estate Solution? Use an ordered list for a line
  1. .... and the same for a polygon:
    1. ... Also look at the directions uf discussions. --- Andrew Turner From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 07:17:25 2006 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Oct 4 07:17:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] View this Mailing List via RSS Message-ID: <21e770780610040717v3f7d2986lcbd14b2edd48967c@mail.gmail.com> Today in IRC[1] we were chatting about how great it would be to have an RSS feed of the mailing list. Some folks are on digest, others on single messages - and others want some sort of "in between". After a conversation about installing software etc. Tantek pointed out that GMANE archives all the messages, and that they produce pretty graphs and stats[2]. They also produce a set of RSS feeds that you can subscribe to. You still need to sign-up to the mailing list to reply, but an RSS feed might be a quick and easy way for folks to keep-up with topics related to their direct interests. By filtering that RSS by keywords, either through services like FeedShake[3] or you local app you can get a customized view of current Mailing list activity and still have you digest of all the messages waiting for you to read through at night. -brian [1] - http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-10-04#T134559 [2] - http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general [3] - http://www.feedshake.com/ -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From supercanadian at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 09:38:27 2006 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Wed Oct 4 09:38:31 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo Radius, Area of Interest In-Reply-To: <4a31cd840610040701o3eb3eb65xf3ee168352d44ead@mail.gmail.com> References: <4a31cd840610040701o3eb3eb65xf3ee168352d44ead@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0610040938s2bd1888fh6969ac5eae461607@mail.gmail.com> Hello Andrew, I haven't yet gone over the previous thread yet. (Too busy with work.) But you may want to allow the concept of time in there. And say things like... this picture was taken at the coordinates at this date time. A reason for this is that the coordinates for a location can change over time. Due to an Earth quake violently shifting the land over time. Continental drift. Or something else. See ya On 10/4/06, Andrew Turner wrote: > There have been some great ideas and thoughts that poured through the > list yesterday. Here's an attempt to summarize and re-gather thoughts > and needs. I think there are couple of use cases people have thrown > out there, each with their own problems and possible solutions > (completely up for discussion). I just want to have us arguing about > the appropriate topics and not bashing head on what the actual problem > is. :) > > --- > 1) Precision > Summary: ability to mark the approximate area these lat/lon > coordinates apply to due to not sure of exactly where something was, > or imprecise measuring device > > Example: have lat/lon of the center of a park, and took pictures at > various places in the park. > > Problems: users probably don't know that 0.0001 degree = 11.1 meters > at the Equator - but also varies depending on the latitude. Also, > dropping digits off the end doesn't specify if 41.345 is "inaccurate", > or really accurate 41.3450000 (b/c zeros would be dropped when stored > in code as a number, though not as a string) > > Solution? specify a precision that is +/- a distance. e.g. "give or > take 10 meters > > 2) Radius > Summary: rough area that the coordinates apply to > > Example: expected landing area for a parachutist/rover > > Solution? allow 42 meters > > 3) Feature area > Summary: coordinates are the center of a larger area of a certain type > of unknown size > > Example: Took a picture of a mountain or a city. Want to just say, the > mountain is at Lat x Lon and is a mountain in size/area > > Solution?: featuretypetag="mountain" as used by GeoRSS > > 4) Polygon/line > Summary: lay out a track/line, or define a specific boundary of a location > > Example: A hike or a plot of land definition, such as for Real Estate > > Solution? Use an ordered list for a line
      1. .... > and the same for a polygon:
        1. ... > Also look at the directions uf discussions. > > --- > > Andrew Turner > -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Make Television http://maketelevision.com/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ From singpolyma at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 10:18:32 2006 From: singpolyma at gmail.com (Stephen Paul Weber) Date: Wed Oct 4 10:18:34 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields In-Reply-To: <948601250610040212g45476374o633e551f5aa6d123@mail.gmail.com> References: <948601250610040212g45476374o633e551f5aa6d123@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6991f8e00610041018v7f70ecbdw52f0a0727a3b4ae9@mail.gmail.com> One thing about this would be that all current parsers would have to be tweaked to ignore
          as the root of a data-extraction parseing. On 10/4/06, Tom Armitage wrote: > On 28/09/06, Drew McLellan wrote: > > That's the ticket. But you'd need a mixture of name and class to > > account for everything... e.g. > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > (obviously incomplete example) > > > > drew. > > I'm not sure that name fields are appropriate; whilst they *should* be > freely renamable, very often, at the back-end integration stage, > things like this may get changed, or (depending on the system) may be > unworkable. > > I've been thinking about this a while, and I think that one potential > way of getting around the "form fields wanting data that is > microformattable" issue is by making a _minor_ change to the > microformat spec itself. > > Namely: whilst microformat classes on most elements indicate what the > element *is*, microformat classes on inputs, selects, and textareas > within form fields (ie: semantically correct input elements) indicate > *what the form desires as input*. > > So: an hCard on a div and some lis indicates that I've got a contact > of some form; a form with class "vcard" and various suitably classed > inputs indicates a form that demands a vcard. > > That's it. As a proposla. it obviously requires some refinement, but > it's easily enforceable in any application (because it's just based > aronud parsing html) and it keeps the microformatting to the class > attribute, where it's unlikely to ever be in conflict with any other > demands. > > Thoughts? > > t. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- - Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolyma@gmail.com ICQ/AIM: 103332966 NSA: stephen4@northstar-academy.org BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Oct 4 11:10:55 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Oct 4 11:12:02 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo Radius, Area of Interest In-Reply-To: <4a31cd840610040701o3eb3eb65xf3ee168352d44ead@mail.gmail.com> References: <4a31cd840610040701o3eb3eb65xf3ee168352d44ead@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <4a31cd840610040701o3eb3eb65xf3ee168352d44ead@mail.gmail.com>, Andrew Turner writes >There have been some great ideas and thoughts that poured through the >list yesterday. Here's an attempt to summarize and re-gather thoughts >and needs. Very useful, thank you. -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Oct 4 11:37:14 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Oct 4 11:37:25 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields In-Reply-To: <6991f8e00610041018v7f70ecbdw52f0a0727a3b4ae9@mail.gmail.com> References: <948601250610040212g45476374o633e551f5aa6d123@mail.gmail.com> <6991f8e00610041018v7f70ecbdw52f0a0727a3b4ae9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2006, at 12:18 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: > One thing about this would be that all current parsers would have to > be tweaked to ignore as the root of a data-extraction parseing. I don't think it's quite that simple. What about cases where microformats exist within s, but not as part of s? Here's the first example I found of an hcard wrapped in a form: What is the benefit of using the same root class name for forms accepting a microformat as we use for the published microformat? Why not just use something like class="vcard-input"? In addition to avoiding such conflicts, that seems more descriptive. Peace, Scott From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Oct 4 12:05:46 2006 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Oct 4 12:07:14 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats Message-ID: Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the future. Which set me thinking.... Obituary A-Z index (of a web site e.g. ) Site map Opening hours (of a shop. library, restaurant, etc.) Timetable (bus, train, airline etc.) Change-log (software) Bug report (software) Meeting agenda Meeting minutes Clothing item (size, fitting, colour, material, etc.; could then fit inside hListing) Vehicle (make, model, engine size, mods, etc.; could then fit inside hListing) Weather forecast Computer Spec (type (e.g. PC, mac, processor, memory, graphics card, OS, installed software etc.; could then fit inside hListing) To-do list Sky chart ("Where can I see Orion"? "What can I see now, from my home town? "When is the ISS passing overhead, and on what track?" see ) Restaurant menu Song lyrics (& poems?) TV Schedule listing TV/ film cast list/credits Note that I'm not proposing, nor requesting any work be done on, any of them (though don't let that stop you), but they do all exist in large numbers. Anyone else got any suggestions? -- Andy Mabbett Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: Free Our Data: From jflint at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 12:11:32 2006 From: jflint at gmail.com (Jeremy Flint) Date: Wed Oct 4 12:11:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using Technorati to export hCal to Outlook 2003 Message-ID: I have marked up a local events directory with hCal information. You can view it at www.activeculture.info We would like to make use of the microformat information by adding a "Add this event to my calendar" button. Problem is that when I try to run an event through the feeds.technorati.com url, Outlook 2003 throws an error when trying to add it. Here is an example of an event that I am passing: http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://activeculture.info/eventsDetails.asp?ItemID=2810 Is there any additional information that I can add to the micorformat to make it work in Outlook? -- jeremy flint www.jeremyflint.com www.kineticcom.com From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Wed Oct 4 12:37:28 2006 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Wed Oct 4 12:37:32 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using Technorati to export hCal to Outlook 2003 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/4/06, Jeremy Flint wrote: > Here is an example of an event that I am passing: > > http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://activeculture.info/eventsDetails.asp?ItemID=2810 If you open the resultant .ics in a text editor you'll see it's largely empty. I can't actually see any hCal markup at your URL, so that may explain it? -Ciaran McNulty From jflint at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 12:50:34 2006 From: jflint at gmail.com (Jeremy Flint) Date: Wed Oct 4 12:50:36 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using Technorati to export hCal to Outlook 2003 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, uploaded an updated page with the hCal information in it. There are definitely dtstart, dtstamp, and dtend fields in there now. Those don't appear to be coming into the output from feeds.technorati. Here is what Tails is seeing: http://flickr.com/photos/jflint/260877197/ It is being generated from this event: http://activeculture.info/eventsDetails.asp?ItemID=4668 - Jeremy On 10/4/06, Ciaran McNulty wrote: > On 10/4/06, Jeremy Flint wrote: > > Here is an example of an event that I am passing: > > > > http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://activeculture.info/eventsDetails.asp?ItemID=2810 > > If you open the resultant .ics in a text editor you'll see it's largely empty. > > I can't actually see any hCal markup at your URL, so that may explain it? > > -Ciaran McNulty > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- jeremy flint www.jeremyflint.com www.kineticcom.com From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Oct 4 13:02:09 2006 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Oct 4 13:02:18 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using Technorati to export hCal to Outlook 2003 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Jeremy Flint wrote: > Ok, uploaded an updated page with the hCal information in it. > > There are definitely dtstart, dtstamp, and dtend fields in there now. > Those don't appear to be coming into the output from feeds.technorati. > > Here is what Tails is seeing: http://flickr.com/photos/jflint/ > 260877197/ > > It is being generated from this event: > http://activeculture.info/eventsDetails.asp?ItemID=4668 I wonder if Technorati is having trouble parsing invalid HTML. Specifically, you're wrapping a span (an inline element) around a table (a block element), which is invalid. See: "Generally, inline elements may contain only data and other inline elements." Try changing your to
          , or just put "vevent" into the table class itself, if there's not a good reason to keep it separate. Peace, Scott From jflint at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 14:27:14 2006 From: jflint at gmail.com (Jeremy Flint) Date: Wed Oct 4 14:27:18 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using Technorati to export hCal to Outlook 2003 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like there was some invalid code (aside from the whole span thing). Works great now. On 10/4/06, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Oct 4, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Jeremy Flint wrote: > > > Ok, uploaded an updated page with the hCal information in it. > > > > There are definitely dtstart, dtstamp, and dtend fields in there now. > > Those don't appear to be coming into the output from feeds.technorati. > > > > Here is what Tails is seeing: http://flickr.com/photos/jflint/ > > 260877197/ > > > > It is being generated from this event: > > http://activeculture.info/eventsDetails.asp?ItemID=4668 > > I wonder if Technorati is having trouble parsing invalid HTML. > Specifically, you're wrapping a span (an inline element) around a > table (a block element), which is invalid. See: > > > > "Generally, inline elements may contain only data and other inline > elements." > > Try changing your to
          , or > just put "vevent" into the table class itself, if there's not a good > reason to keep it separate. > > Peace, > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- jeremy flint www.jeremyflint.com www.kineticcom.com From supercanadian at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 15:35:15 2006 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Wed Oct 4 15:35:19 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84ce626f0610041535k2003f88ew638a6fcd86c87061@mail.gmail.com> Hello Andy, Maybe (audio and video) playlists. Possibly something like XSPF turned into Semantic HTML. See ya On 10/4/06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > > Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the > future. Which set me thinking.... > > > Obituary > > A-Z index (of a web site e.g. > ) > > Site map > > Opening hours (of a shop. library, restaurant, etc.) > > Timetable (bus, train, airline etc.) > > Change-log (software) > > Bug report (software) > > Meeting agenda > > Meeting minutes > > Clothing item (size, fitting, colour, material, etc.; could > then fit inside hListing) > > Vehicle (make, model, engine size, mods, etc.; could > then fit inside hListing) > > Weather forecast > > Computer Spec (type (e.g. PC, mac, processor, memory, graphics > card, OS, installed software etc.; could then > fit inside hListing) > > To-do list > > Sky chart ("Where can I see Orion"? "What can I see now, > from my home town? "When is the ISS passing > overhead, and on what track?" see > ) > > Restaurant menu > > Song lyrics (& poems?) > > TV Schedule listing > > TV/ film cast list/credits > > Note that I'm not proposing, nor requesting any work be done on, any of > them (though don't let that stop you), but they do all exist in large > numbers. > > Anyone else got any suggestions? > > > -- > Andy Mabbett > Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: > > Free Our Data: > > -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Make Television http://maketelevision.com/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ From lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au Wed Oct 4 16:26:34 2006 From: lachlan.hunt at lachy.id.au (Lachlan Hunt) Date: Wed Oct 4 16:26:46 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> Andy Mabbett wrote: > Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the > future. Which set me thinking.... This is a good list of use cases. Some of these things are already covered, at least in part, by existing formats. Do any of these formats have any limitations up these use cases? > A-Z index (of a web site e.g. > ) > > Site map XOXO. > Opening hours (of a shop. library, restaurant, etc.) > > Timetable (bus, train, airline etc.) > > Change-log (software) hCalendar. > Bug report (software) Would need to do document existing bug systems. * http://www.bugzilla.org/ - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/ * http://bugs.php.net/ > Meeting agenda > > Meeting minutes XOXO and hCalendar. > Clothing item (size, fitting, colour, material, etc.; could > then fit inside hListing) > > Vehicle (make, model, engine size, mods, etc.; could > then fit inside hListing) > Computer Spec (type (e.g. PC, mac, processor, memory, graphics > card, OS, installed software etc.; could then > fit inside hListing) rel-tag and hListing. > Weather forecast Geo could be used for the location information. > To-do list XOXO. > Restaurant menu XOXO and hListing. > Song lyrics (& poems?) Many sites that I've seen use little more than separating the lines with
          . http://www.lyricsfreak.com/m/midnight+oil/beds+are+burning_20093267.html http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/Beds-are-Burning-lyrics-Midnight-Oil/3877A3DC1A7ACABA482568BE00170857 http://www.lyricsdepot.com/midnight-oil/beds-are-burning.html http://www.lyricsondemand.com/m/midnightoillyrics/bedsareburninglyrics.html http://www.metrolyrics.com/lyrics/8252/Midnight_Oil/Beds_Are_Burning http://lyrics.duble.com/lyrics/M/midnight-oil-lyrics/midnight-oil-beds-are-burning-lyrics.htm http://www.azlyrics.us/167723 > TV Schedule listing hCalendar http://www.yourtv.com.au/ > TV/ film cast list/credits XOXO. http://imdb.com/ -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Oct 4 16:39:01 2006 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Oct 4 16:39:05 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> References: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <21e523c20610041639i5989d580tbe4b515950ab1cc0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/06, Lachlan Hunt wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > > Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the > > future. Which set me thinking.... > > This is a good list of use cases. Some of these things are already > covered, at least in part, by existing formats. Do any of these formats > have any limitations up these use cases? > > > A-Z index (of a web site e.g. > > ) > > > > Site map > > XOXO. Really? I've been thinking about how one would provide a presentation-neutral uF for marking navigation in blog posts, including marking up typical archive-directory blocks one sees on many blogs. Have a look at this page [1]. There's real semantic information underlying what's presented on this page; how would you do it with XOXO without restructuring presentation-wise what's there? And I'm not asking this in a sarcastic way or anything! I really want to know how to do this. One of the (many) issues I have with XOXO is that for at least certain applications, it seems to be asking a lot of the implementor. Regards, etc... David [1] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/ From singpolyma at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 18:08:15 2006 From: singpolyma at gmail.com (Stephen Paul Weber) Date: Wed Oct 4 18:08:18 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: <21e523c20610041639i5989d580tbe4b515950ab1cc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> <21e523c20610041639i5989d580tbe4b515950ab1cc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6991f8e00610041808g30af2b41h998b0646c5725dce@mail.gmail.com> Software Downloads (license, download link, title, description, rating?) Might actually start some research and suggest this soon. On 10/4/06, David Janes wrote: > On 10/4/06, Lachlan Hunt wrote: > > Andy Mabbett wrote: > > > Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the > > > future. Which set me thinking.... > > > > This is a good list of use cases. Some of these things are already > > covered, at least in part, by existing formats. Do any of these formats > > have any limitations up these use cases? > > > > > A-Z index (of a web site e.g. > > > ) > > > > > > Site map > > > > XOXO. > > Really? I've been thinking about how one would provide a > presentation-neutral uF for marking navigation in blog posts, > including marking up typical archive-directory blocks one sees on many > blogs. > > Have a look at this page [1]. There's real semantic information > underlying what's presented on this page; how would you do it with > XOXO without restructuring presentation-wise what's there? > > And I'm not asking this in a sarcastic way or anything! I really want > to know how to do this. One of the (many) issues I have with XOXO is > that for at least certain applications, it seems to be asking a lot of > the implementor. > > Regards, etc... > David > > [1] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- - Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolyma@gmail.com ICQ/AIM: 103332966 NSA: stephen4@northstar-academy.org BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/ From karl at w3.org Wed Oct 4 18:52:52 2006 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Wed Oct 4 18:53:18 2006 Subject: Bug reports software Re: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> References: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> Message-ID: <07A230F5-E201-45C8-8ED3-C23178E16188@w3.org> Le 5 oct. 06 ? 08:26, Lachlan Hunt a ?crit : >> Bug report (software) > > Would need to do document existing bug systems. > > * http://www.bugzilla.org/ > - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ > - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/ > * http://bugs.php.net/ http://trac.edgewall.org/ Related Extensible Issue Tracking System http://www.w3.org/2003/12/exit/ -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From karl at w3.org Wed Oct 4 18:57:40 2006 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Wed Oct 4 18:58:02 2006 Subject: Software Projects Description Re: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: <6991f8e00610041808g30af2b41h998b0646c5725dce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> <21e523c20610041639i5989d580tbe4b515950ab1cc0@mail.gmail.com> <6991f8e00610041808g30af2b41h998b0646c5725dce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Le 5 oct. 06 ? 10:08, Stephen Paul Weber a ?crit : > Software Downloads (license, download link, title, description, > rating?) > Might actually start some research and suggest this soon. Already done. It's called DOAP http://usefulinc.com/doap -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From karl at w3.org Wed Oct 4 19:01:35 2006 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Wed Oct 4 19:01:55 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8615DDD4-0845-40E6-BF1D-6181B38E1267@w3.org> Le 5 oct. 06 ? 04:05, Andy Mabbett a ?crit : > Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the > future. Which set me thinking.... Be careful of the infobesity. As in I see many microformats development on this list these days without any questions being first "What is the problem we are trying to solve for the user?" I see a lot of "Let's create this microformat to grab the data from the user." or "Let's recreate this format as a microformat." If it has no direct benefits for the user, I do not see how it can be useful. For now, it is more useful for data mining marketing agencies, not for users. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From supercanadian at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 19:06:05 2006 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Wed Oct 4 19:06:09 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats In-Reply-To: <6991f8e00610041808g30af2b41h998b0646c5725dce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4524432A.4080405@lachy.id.au> <21e523c20610041639i5989d580tbe4b515950ab1cc0@mail.gmail.com> <6991f8e00610041808g30af2b41h998b0646c5725dce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0610041906g42efea7dv7611ff3658b5b76c@mail.gmail.com> Hello Stephen, There's been some work toward this already. You may want to look at the following... http://microformats.org/wiki/hash-examples ...and... http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-license See ya On 10/4/06, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: > Software Downloads (license, download link, title, description, rating?) > Might actually start some research and suggest this soon. > > On 10/4/06, David Janes wrote: > > On 10/4/06, Lachlan Hunt wrote: > > > Andy Mabbett wrote: > > > > Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the > > > > future. Which set me thinking.... > > > > > > This is a good list of use cases. Some of these things are already > > > covered, at least in part, by existing formats. Do any of these formats > > > have any limitations up these use cases? > > > > > > > A-Z index (of a web site e.g. > > > > ) > > > > > > > > Site map > > > > > > XOXO. > > > > Really? I've been thinking about how one would provide a > > presentation-neutral uF for marking navigation in blog posts, > > including marking up typical archive-directory blocks one sees on many > > blogs. > > > > Have a look at this page [1]. There's real semantic information > > underlying what's presented on this page; how would you do it with > > XOXO without restructuring presentation-wise what's there? > > > > And I'm not asking this in a sarcastic way or anything! I really want > > to know how to do this. One of the (many) issues I have with XOXO is > > that for at least certain applications, it seems to be asking a lot of > > the implementor. > > > > Regards, etc... > > David > > > > [1] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/ > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > -- > - Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer > > > MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolyma@gmail.com > ICQ/AIM: 103332966 > NSA: stephen4@northstar-academy.org > BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Make Television http://maketelevision.com/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ From mail at 2xup.org Wed Oct 4 19:18:19 2006 From: mail at 2xup.org (Taichi Kaminogoya) Date: Wed Oct 4 19:18:22 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] blog post in japanese? Message-ID: <611703bb0610041918r327c1d7fq8f2b0f5cfc8afdf4@mail.gmail.com> To be based on the latest document, I corrected the content of the article. Thank you for a great document! On 7/24/06, brian suda wrote: > It is a verbatim copy of an older version of my cheatsheet > mistakes and all. > Please be sure to use the most current version. > > If Mr.Taichi Kaminogoya is on the list, or if someone can contact him, > please let him know there are some mistakes (eg ADR) best regards, -- Taichi KaminoGoya nipeke@gmail.com From bjonkman at sobac.com Wed Oct 4 21:45:17 2006 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed Oct 4 21:46:28 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Examples in Wiki Message-ID: <4524559D.6540.75D899@bjonkman.sobac.com> Hi all: I've been looking at the examples on the Wiki, especially hCard, hCalendar and hResume. Many of the examples in the Wiki give the original format (vCard, iCalendar), then how the microformat should be coded, then "How this might look". But not always: sometimes the original format portion is missing; sometimes the "How this might look" is missing. Sometimes the "How this might look" is actually marked up with microformats, which allows those of us with microformat tools in our browsers to see the proper behaviour. Most often that's not the case, tho. Are there any style guidelines for preparing examples? If not, any suggestions from the list? I propose that whereever possible an example should consist of all three portions, with the "How this might look" portion properly marked up so that it triggers all the correct behaviours in the browser. --Bob. -- -- -- -- Bob Jonkman From supercanadian at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 22:38:37 2006 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Wed Oct 4 22:38:40 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hPlaylist Status? Message-ID: <84ce626f0610042238v6660b86egbf38a1de6763c497@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Previously I remember there was discussion about hPlaylist. What was the result of that? What's the status of that effort? See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Make Television http://maketelevision.com/ ___________________________________________________________________________ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ From lucas.gonze at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 23:38:48 2006 From: lucas.gonze at gmail.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Wed Oct 4 23:38:51 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hPlaylist Status? In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0610042238v6660b86egbf38a1de6763c497@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0610042238v6660b86egbf38a1de6763c497@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > Previously I remember there was discussion about hPlaylist. > > What was the result of that? What's the status of that effort? A couple things that I know of. - David Janes went off and did a related minimicroformat, the name of which slips my mind. - I went off and did a hella lotta drafts and experiments with alternative approaches. I'd be happy to have your input or help you tackle related problems. Let's talk offlist. -Lucas From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Oct 5 01:08:12 2006 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Oct 5 01:08:22 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] hPlaylist Status? In-Reply-To: References: <84ce626f0610042238v6660b86egbf38a1de6763c497@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/5/06, Lucas Gonze wrote: > I'd be happy to have your input or help you tackle related problems. > Let's talk offlist. Lucas, This is certainly something I'd be interested it hearing more about, so I'd encourage you to continue progress on this in public! Do you have some pointers to the existing research? Thanks -Ciaran McNulty From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Oct 5 01:29:34 2006 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Oct 5 01:29:50 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields In-Reply-To: References: <948601250610040212g45476374o633e551f5aa6d123@mail.gmail.com> <6991f8e00610041018v7f70ecbdw52f0a0727a3b4ae9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4 Oct 2006, at 19:37, Scott Reynen wrote: > What is the benefit of using the same root class name for forms > accepting a microformat as we use for the published microformat? The first that comes to mind: If the form is pre-filled then you have a valid vcard that could be parsed (with the addition of some form parsing rules). Take for example an ?Edit Profile? page that contains existing values. Whether that falls outside 80/20 I'm not sure. From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Oct 5 01:45:31 2006 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Oct 5 01:45:35 2006 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields In-Reply-To: References: <948601250610040212g45476374o633e551f5aa6d123@mail.gmail.com> <6991f8e00610041018v7f70ecbdw52f0a0727a3b4ae9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/5/06, Ben Ward wrote: > The first that comes to mind: If the form is pre-filled then you have > a valid vcard that could be parsed (with the addition of some form > parsing rules). Take for example an 'Edit Profile' page that contains > existing values. That's a very good point, but it would depend on some changes to the uF parsing rules. Elements like