[uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!

Justin Thorp juth at loc.gov
Mon Oct 16 14:05:08 PDT 2006 

Ben, I really like your idea of giving the wiki a better sense of organization.

Is it possible within MediaWiki to have some type of sidebar navigation with this site organization on it?

I think this would help users to better find the information that they are looking for. For example, I am a user who could care less about the specification and cares more about how to write an hCard or hCalendar.  I want to see whats possible and some examples.  

I didn't even see that there was a page on authoring within the pages and pages of specification.  Even with it at the top of the page.  I glanced right over it.

It seems like most tutorials on hCard or hCalendar point people to the spec to get more information.  Should we be encouraging people to point to the authoring page?  I think a newbie would be very very very intimidated being pointed right to the spec.

Cheers,
Justin


******************
Justin Thorp
Contractor - Library of Congress
e - juth at loc.gov
p - 202/707-9541

>>> bewest at gmail.com 10/16/06 4:16 PM >>>
Quick Summary:
* Lots of interest in wiki improvement
* Work I've done
* Please Help!

I've noticed there are lots of people interested in changing the wiki
in various ways.  Perhaps it would help if can converge around some
common goals to rally our work around.  I don't think anyone has any
objections to the claim that the wiki is hard to read.

Let's move forward:
I've outlined some of my ideas at
<http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#Information_Architecture>.  There
seem to several categories of stuff on the wiki.  I've outlined them
in my to-do list and would greatly appreciate commentary and
refinement.  Andy and all others interested in this effort: would you
mind adding your ideas to your own section on the to-do page?  Also
feel free to comment inline with my ideas.  Here's part of my
categorization to provoke you a bit:
-------------------------------------
There are several categories of things in the wiki. Can we enumerate them?

    * About the Community
          o Where to find information.
          o Who are the stake holders?
          o FAQs
    * Web/Architectural Philosophy
          o Community Principles
          o Why are we doing this?
          o XML and Namespaces
          o Semantic XHTML
          o Common Misconceptions
          o Concession and Disposition of Criticism
          o FAQs
    * Specs
          o Examples
          o Discussion
          o Exploration
          o Use Cases
          o Implementations
          o The spec itself.
-------------------------------------

Perhaps different categories of things need different approaches for
refinement.  Anyone see any problems with  my categorization?
Anything missing/wrong?

I'd love to see Andy, Phae, Scott, Tantek, and anyone else interested
in improving the wiki start to use the to-do list so I can align my
organizational thoughts with everyone.  Perhaps we can even run some
kind of virtual card sort to help establish how things should be
organized.  Anyone have any ideas on how to do this?

Ben

On 10/16/06, Andy Mabbett <andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <C159279E.7D936%tantek at cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek Çelik
> <tantek at cs.stanford.edu> writes
>
> >On 10/16/06 11:53 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>> If you can be specific about *which* pages, and what about them are
> >>> hard to understand, that would be very helpful.
> >>
> >> Here's a hint: most people new to hCalendar (some of them, it will
> >> apparently come as a surprise to you, not bloggers) are likely to want
> >> to know from what components an hCalendar consists of,
> >
> >That is very reasonable,
>
> Then why did you revert my change from "Bloggers can both embed hCards
> directly in their web pages..." to "People can both embed hCards
> directly in their web pages..."
>
> And why did you remove the list of hCalendar properties which I'd
> started?
>
> >the right thing to do then is to add a section
> >similar to the section in hCard which serves that purpose, *without doing
> >any other changes*.
>
> Who says that's the "right" thing to do?
>
> >> before they read
> >> your name twice, view two links to your day-job, or see you bigging-up
> >> your friends; you appear to believe that the opposite is the case.
> >
> >Andy, please reread:
> >
> >http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#update_specification_section_organization 
> >
> >for what my current thoughts are on section organization,
>
> I could hardly have read that, before I made the changes which you
> reverted, since you hadn't posted it then.
>
> Having since done so, it's little better than what's there now, and
> shows no regard for the convenience of new users. I would have thought
> that we want folks new to microformats to feel welcome.
>
> >rather than implying/inferring
>
> Please learn the difference; then say which you mean.
>
> >from a single instance.
>
> I have not done anything, based on a single instance.
>
> >As far as the default order of editor, author, copyright etc., I *strongly*
> >recommend you read some W3C specs to get an understanding of what "typical"
> >web standards specifications look like.
>
> I already know what they look like, but thank you for attempting to
> patronise me anyway.
>
> I note also that what you refer to, on the uF wiki, as a
> "specification", is no such thing.
>
> Then again, neither was the new section which I created on the hCalendar
> page, which you have removed.
>
> >> Neither are they likely to want to re-read a tedious and barely-relevant
> >> essay on XML, complete with misleading advice.
> >
> >Please note that specifications are not tutorials, and attempting to make
> >them into tutorials is very bad for precision and interoperability.
>
> Please note that I have neither claimed nor implied that specifications
> are tutorials, and attempting to imply that I have is vary bad.
>
> >If you have specific issues about the semantic XHTML section, please raise
> >them in a separate thread.
>
> I can no longer be bothered. Congratulations.
>
> >> BTW, I'm now asking you for the *fifth* time, to answer my question
> >> about "species" examples.
> >
> >I for one have not had the time to read through your species examples in
> >order to answer your question.
>
> !
>
> >Perhaps consider kindly asking the list what the community as a whole thinks
> >of your work on species
>
> Since you specifically made the criticism, and you specifically
> requested further evidence, I feel entitled to specifically ask you
> whether the evidence I have since supplied has satisfied your specific
> concern.
>
> I note that you once again fail to answer that simple question..
>
> >, but I ask that you first wait for the discussion of
> >what new list to create for "new microformats" concludes.
>
> You seem to be inventing new hurdles.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>                 Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
>
>                 Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
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> microformats-discuss at microformats.org 
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>
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