[uf-discuss] Visible Data...a Microformat requirement?

Mon Oct 23 01:52:45 PDT 2006

>> I'm not Tantek, but you're use-case seems eminently reasonable, and 

Thanks!  

>> I'd suggest could be solved using an appropriate new link at rel, and then
convicing the search engines to pay attention to it ;-)

Do you mean in <head>?   Did you see my earlier comments about wikis, CMS,
and forums, where the user often may not have control of putting things in
<head>?

>> It's very hard to follow the Microformats principle of 'pave the
cowpaths' if the information you're trying to enrich isn't currently present
in the documents, which means hidden data is fairly heavily discouraged.

I understand. Personally, I have need for it in a project I'm planning and
will use it in my project. Although I really don't want to say this because
it sounds so un-humble, but if my project achieves my vision which I think
it can, it will be significant enough by itself to drive interest in the
conventions it uses. 

I can do two things; implement it and probably get it wrong because I'd not
have the benefit of feedback from the so many skilled people involved in
Microformats, or include in the Microformats process and get the feedback to
make it (and others) the best they can be.

>> However, it doesn't really fit in with the aims of Microformats with a
big 'M', which are "Designed for humans first and machines second"

Here's just a question: Is it possible to interpret that to mean "When there
is a conflict, design for humans trumps design for machines?"  If so, that
doesn't *preclude* designing for machines where there isn't a conflict with
humans, right?  Just another way to look at it...?

>> Again, that's not to say it's not a good idea, it's something I'd be
quite interested in too.

And there are several more where that one came from. :)  Maybe if Tantek
vetos you can help me go create yet another initiative for "hidden
Microformat-like metadata?" :-)

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces at microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces at microformats.org] On Behalf Of Ciaran
McNulty
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 4:26 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Visible Data...a Microformat requirement?

On 10/23/06, Mike Schinkel <mikeschinkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, what if your take on this problem and use-case?

I'm not Tantek, but you're use-case seems eminently reasonable, and I'd
suggest could be solved using an appropriate new link at rel, and then
convicing the search engines to pay attention to it ;-)

However, it doesn't really fit in with the aims of Microformats with a big
'M', which are "Designed for humans first and machines second"
[1].

The scope of what's considered a Microformat is deliberately narrow, and is
primarily aimed at adding extra semantics to data that's already present in
documents.

XFN, for instance, defines a set of @rel values to enrich the semantics of
linking to other people's sites/blogs/etc., but it's unlikely that XFN would
have been proposed if there wasn't already a huge precendent of people
linking to each other's sites, and a percieved need for that extra
information to be added to the existing links.

It's very hard to follow the Microformats principle of 'pave the cowpaths'
if the information you're trying to enrich isn't currently present in the
documents, which means hidden data is fairly heavily discouraged.

Again, that's not to say it's not a good idea, it's something I'd be quite
interested in too.

-Ciaran McNulty

  [1] http://microformats.org/about/
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