[uf-discuss] [chat] Microformats are not for data storage
bkdelong at pobox.com
Mon Oct 30 05:40:43 PST 2006
and don't forget the plausibility of creating XSLTs to convert the XML
into whatever-the-heck-you-want for storage. ;)
On 10/30/06, Chris Messina <chris.messina at gmail.com> wrote:
> Whohoo! A point of real debate!
> Well, as I did when we first spoke months ago, I firmly disagree, and
> over time, I think you will be proven wrong. There's simply no point
> in having multiple instantiations of the same data in a text-based
> format (I'm exempting relational databases).
> In any case -- I know where you're coming from and I appreciate you
> making a public statement about your position. This will allow us to
> finally have this conversation out in daylight.
> Your point has been that straight XML is easier to parse than XHTML --
> which could include linked CSS for use in presentation, or JS to
> add/modify behavior.
> Furthermore, as new chat programs emerge, the ability to move data
> between them in a format that works in *any browser* seems like an
> investment in the future, as opposed to the present and recent past.
> Lastly, the unknown uses and mashability of XHTML is one of the most
> important elements of using XHTML as opposed to custom XML.
> These are a few of the basic assumptions that I work under. I would be
> very happy if you would discount them, one at a time. ;)
> On 10/29/06, Colin Barrett <timber at lava.net> wrote:
> > Particularly, I'm going to be talking about "hChat".
> > Personally, I see the primary use case of a chat microformat to be for
> > displaying of chat contents in a live (or semi-live) way. There are
> > quite a few examples of this in the wild -- web-based IM clients like
> > Meebo, and Adium and Kopete's message view, both of which are HTML
> > based.
> > Contrarily, most data formats are not HTML based (XML based, usually),
> > or if they are, do not use modern HTML (i.e. AOL's HTML log format).
> > I think the chat group should alter its focus to providing ways to
> > semantically talk about the structure of a chat and a particular
> > message entry. One of the most obvious benefits in this area is much
> > better clipboard support -- copying things out of Meebo and Adium/
> > Kopete's HTML view usually results in an un-useful mess.
> > Another important use case, that I think there has been some research
> > towards already, is "snippets". That is, small snippets of an IM
> > conversation in a blog post. This, conveniently, goes along with my
> > earlier point about copy-paste.
> > Just a couple of other points that have been percolating:
> > - the use of hCard to mark up people's names
> > - Time zone information is important -- particularly wrt. time time
> > zone of the sender and the time zone of the receiver.
> > This email has been a long time coming -- I've waited for a couple of
> > months, just lurking and trying to understand the process. Should
> > people agree that this is the direction research should go, I'll start
> > working on getting links on the wiki to examples of documentations of
> > chat representations. I think that the idea of chat *logging* is a
> > well-solved problem by XML and microformats shouldn't be butting their
> > heads in -- especially since most of the time full logs aren't
> > available on the web (the uF log bot being a notable, and interesting,
> > exception).
> > In the interest of full disclosure: I'm one of the developers of Adium
> > -- we're looking into improving our message view, and copy/paste has
> > been something that's plagued us for a while. I'm also one of the
> > primary authors of an XML based log format that's been adopted by
> > Adium, Gaim and Kopete.
> > --
> > Colin Barrett
> > Developer, Adium
> > http://adiumx.com
> > _______________________________________________
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> > microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
> Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
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B.K. DeLong (K3GRN)
bkdelong at pobox.com
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