From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Wed Aug 1 01:00:16 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Wed Aug 1 01:00:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Specifying a contact person for an org in hCard In-Reply-To: <1L0XbBLZ72rGFw92@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com> <1L0XbBLZ72rGFw92@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On 7/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Are there any examples of publishers or parsers using "agent" in hCard? I don't think so, there was some discussion of it a while back on the mailing list but you'd have to search the archives. -Ciaran McNulty From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 02:29:28 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Aug 1 02:29:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: birthday versus birthdate In-Reply-To: References: <6eg3o4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e770780708010229q1a949c0dw3618733eb61e3a5b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, Ray Daly wrote: > Toby, I complete agree with your view. I'm not sure which of the three > options that I will take and certainly not a too early year. Thanks > for the confirmation. Because hCard follows from vCard, when trying to work out exactly what properties mean, it is best to go to the source and see if there is more information there. FROM RFC 2426 Type name: BDAY Type purpose: To specify the birth date of the object the vCard represents. It is ambiguous to what "birth date of the object" really means. I think at the end of the day, you have to ask what is this being used for? probably so you can add it to your address book so you can call a friend and say "happy birthday", whether that is the EXACT anniversary of the day they were born, or if that is the day they want to celebrate, it doesn't much matter. You could also argue that Organizations (that's the OBJECT they are talking about) could have a birth date as well. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 03:14:48 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Aug 1 03:14:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabledonthe wiki In-Reply-To: <002501c7d3ff$8887c970$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <002501c7d3ff$8887c970$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Finally, the lack of transparency is the most frustrating aspect of this decision. Why aren't these issues laid out on the wiki and discussed on a governance list? This sort of elusive autocratic leadership undermines my trust in the administrators. And /that/ is part of why many people I have personally spoken to have chosen to not contribute and moved on to other work. --- please be aware that discussion of Legal issues SHOULD NOT be send to this list, but instead taken up DIRECTLY with Rohit and commercenet. This list is best server when we do NOT discuss legal issues which very few, if any, of this audience are qualified to weigh in on. Please read: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-issues#Legal_Entity_Issues "Please refer any legal questions or concerns directly to CommerceNet before raising them as a matter of public record, as discussed on the mailing list [1] (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007086.html)." I think we should close this thread and take any further discussions up directly with Rohit as he has recommended. That is the best course of action for everyone. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From faaborg at mozilla.com Wed Aug 1 11:30:39 2007 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:30:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is great, I'm really glad to see Google using microformats. Quick question about handing microformatted content back to Google Maps (using Operator, Firefox 3, etc): does your API support currently sending multiple items, and adding them to a particular map listed in My Maps? For instance, this would enable the user to select multiple hCards on a Web site and send them all to one of their maps. Or, to give a more advanced use case: a Web browser could automatically send all encountered hCards, adrs and geos to a map called "Web History." The user could then turn this map on to view all of the pieces of information they recently encountered online geographically. This could be useful when planning a vacation, searching for real estate across multiple Web sites, etc. -Alex On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: > http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2007/06/microformats-in-google- > maps.html > > Microformats in Google Maps > Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 4:28:00 PM > Posted by Gregor J. Rothfuss, Maps Team and Kevin Marks, Apps Team > > If you have spent any time in certain corners of the web, you will > have heard of Microformats: Clever uses of HTML that add > machine-readability to everyday web pages while preserving > human-readability. Microformats allow tools to make more sense of your > web pages, while not changing the visual appearance for visitors to > your site one whit. > > Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard > microformat to Google Maps results. Why should you care about some > invisible changes to our HTML? By marking up our results with the > hCard microformat, your browser can easily recognize the address and > contact information in the page, and help you transfer it to an > addressbook or phone more easily. Firefox users can install the > Operator or Tails extension; IE or Safari users can use one of these > bookmarklets. [...] > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From faaborg at mozilla.com Wed Aug 1 11:40:33 2007 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:40:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3 Message-ID: Mike Beltzner, Mike Kaply and I are going to try to finalize the user interface for interacting with microformatted content in Firefox 3 this week, possibly later today. If anyone has any last minute suggestions or thoughts, please post them soon. I'll also update this thread with mockups of what we've decided on so we can get feedback on the proposed interface. -Alex From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 12:02:32 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:03:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >>Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have now added >>additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in particular is >>consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all other public >>domain contributors. > >Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit. I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject "Warning of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above exchange of 26 July, in: and telling me that: Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone on the mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban. Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular (which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish, nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered and apt description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand by it. Ironically, Ms Berriman also implies that I'm a - quote - "jerk". The OED tells me that that insult refers to "Someone of little or no account; a fool, a stupid person". Perhaps she ought to put her own house in order. Also of interest is the fact that Ms Berriman signs her post "on behalf of the microformats administration". I can find no reference to such an organisation on the wiki or mailing list. Maybe I've missed something? Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance and rights issues which I and others have raised. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 12:26:17 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:27:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Gags (was: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on the wiki) In-Reply-To: <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <002501c7d3ff$8887c970$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 8/1/07, Joe Andrieu wrote: >>Finally, the lack of transparency is the most frustrating aspect of this decision. >>Why aren't these issues laid out on the wiki and discussed on a governance list? >>This sort of elusive autocratic leadership undermines my trust in the administrators. >--- please be aware that discussion of Legal issues SHOULD NOT be send >to this list, but instead taken up DIRECTLY with Rohit and commercenet. Perhaps you ought to point that out to Rohit, and to Tantek Celik, both of whom have discussed legal issues here in the last week or so. Or does the rule not apply to them? Perhaps we could have a list of who is allowed to discuss what? I also understood, per: that "CommerceNet is graciously hosting the servers, but claims no control over microformat standards". Indeed, CommerceNet are not even mentioned on: and we're told on that page that Rohit's (only?) role is "an ex officio observer of microformats-admin, as the contact point for the servers and the domain name". I can understand your apparent confusion about who is, and is not, responsible for what - it's certainly not made very clear anywhere I've seen. Perhaps the community would prefer such discussion to take place somewhere less controlled, and more public? >This list is best server when we do NOT discuss legal issues The main "governance" page: says: governance related threads on microformats-discuss are low and manageable and can therefore be stated there What are legal issues, if not part of governance? >which very few, if any, of this audience are qualified to weigh in on. What qualifications are required? And checked everyone's CVs? In any case, I think you will find that I am very well - uniquely, even - qualified to say what permission I give to others with regard to use of my IP, just as Joe is about his and his company's. >Please read: >http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-issues#Legal_Entity_Issues > >"Please refer any legal questions or concerns directly to CommerceNet >before raising them as a matter of public record, as discussed on the >mailing list [1] (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats- >discuss/2006-November/007086.html)." It also says: Note that CommerceNet, LLC does not exercise any editorial control over the content of the site, mailing list, specifications, or the process which seems somewhat contradictory. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 12:28:24 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:29:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >but "Rubbish, nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means >"rubbish, nonsense" should read: but "bullshit" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, nonsense" for which I apologise. -- Andy Mabbett From rothfuss at google.com Wed Aug 1 15:29:36 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Wed Aug 1 15:29:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> > Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This > search: > > > > has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up) > has: > > NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps > N:;; > ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;; > > (viewed in Operator) > > -- > Andy Mabbett i will look into it. operator parsing behavior has changed in recent releases, and i had to change the markup a couple times to make it work. any suggestions what ought to be fixed? From rothfuss at google.com Wed Aug 1 15:36:58 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Wed Aug 1 15:37:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <8068b42c0708011536t58f81706w70d0162a260da3fd@mail.gmail.com> Alex Faaborg wrote: > This is great, I'm really glad to see Google using microformats. suggestions are always welcome. i do believe kevin is working on some more in other areas :) > Quick question about handing microformatted content back to Google > Maps (using Operator, Firefox 3, etc): does your API support > currently sending multiple items, and adding them to a particular map > listed in My Maps? > > For instance, this would enable the user to select multiple hCards on > a Web site and send them all to one of their maps. Or, to give a > more advanced use case: a Web browser could automatically send all > encountered hCards, adrs and geos to a map called "Web History." The > user could then turn this map on to view all of the pieces of > information they recently encountered online geographically. This > could be useful when planning a vacation, searching for real estate > across multiple Web sites, etc. > > -Alex that's a cool idea. let me ask around to see what people think would be the best way to do this. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 16:05:25 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 16:07:06 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0po3Tyc1GRsGFwXv@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com>, Gregor J. Rothfuss writes >> Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This >> search: >> >> >> >> has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up) >> has: >> >> NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps >> N:;; >> ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: >> FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: >> ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;; >i will look into it. Thank you. >operator parsing behavior has changed in recent releases, and i had to >change the markup a couple times to make it work. I'm not sure that Operator has anything to do with it. >any suggestions what ought to be fixed? You could start by producing valid (X)HTML, and put your styles in an external style sheet - that at least would make it easier to debug! I don't know Javascript, so can't comment on any errors in that. -- Andy Mabbett From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Wed Aug 1 17:50:14 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Wed Aug 1 17:52:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> Hi Gregor, > any suggestions what ought to be fixed? When I "view selection source" I get the following: Great Barr School
922 Aldridge Rd
Great Barr, Birmingham B44
So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the span's or div's below:
922 Aldridge Rd
Great Barr, Birmingham B44 Rob Manson From rothfuss at google.com Wed Aug 1 18:11:48 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Wed Aug 1 18:11:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> Message-ID: <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> what query was that for? when i search for "pizza", i get
Lombardi's Pizza - more info ?
32 Spring St, New York, NY
(212) 941-7994 - Rated 4.0 out of 5.0
On 8/1/07, Rob Manson wrote: > Hi Gregor, > > > any suggestions what ought to be fixed? > > > When I "view selection source" I get the following: > > style="" class="adr">Great Barr School
922 Aldridge Rd
Great Barr, > Birmingham B44
> > > So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified > at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. > > To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the > span's or div's below: > >
922 Aldridge Rd
> Great Barr, > Birmingham > B44 > > > > > Rob Manson > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From mdagn at spraci.com Wed Aug 1 18:42:09 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Wed Aug 1 18:41:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> Message-ID: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> > > So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified > at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. > > To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there. There are a lot of cases where people may have freeform text addresses and wish to mark them up somehow... - especially where there is a lot of user-entered or legacy data (Google would have plenty of both!) There are no reliable automated means of splitting such freeform text into the seperate elements required by hcard and to expect everyone to manually re-enter everything is definately asking too much! Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/vcard but can still be very useful to humans! - it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! Perhaps we do need some way to mark up such addresses so that there could be export tools that give the user options to split them? From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Wed Aug 1 19:04:55 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Wed Aug 1 19:07:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186020295.17568.690.camel@robslap> Hi Gregor, I just followed the tinyurl link that Andy Mabbett posted to the list which lead to a Google Maps search: http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl Then did a "view selection source" on the address in the left hand panel. Hope that helps... Rob Manson From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Wed Aug 1 23:43:12 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Wed Aug 1 23:45:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <1186036992.17568.717.camel@robslap> Hi Michael, I think that's absolutely right for general address details on web pages or in web based systems. I know a lot of the Telco and DSL provisioning systems I've worked on even have this problem. But I don't believe that this is the case for the address/geocode database that Google use... BTW: I think my last email got bounced so I'll paste it in here to be safe... Hi Gregor, I just followed the tinyurl link that Andy Mabbett posted to the list which lead to a Google Maps search: http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl Then did a "view selection source" on the address in the left hand panel. Hope that helps... Rob Manson On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:42 +1000, Michael MD wrote: > > > > So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified > > at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. > > > > To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the > > > I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there. > > There are a lot of cases where people may have freeform text addresses and > wish to mark them up somehow... - especially where there is a lot of > user-entered or legacy data (Google would have plenty of both!) > > There are no reliable automated means of splitting such freeform text into > the seperate elements required by hcard and to expect everyone to manually > re-enter everything is definately asking too much! > > Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/vcard but > can still be very useful to humans! > - it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what anyone > says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! > > Perhaps we do need some way to mark up such addresses so that there could be > export tools that give the user options to split them? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Aug 2 01:14:50 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Aug 2 01:16:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: In message <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN>, Michael MD writes >> So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified >> at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. >> >> To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the > > >I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there. > >There are a lot of cases where people may have freeform text addresses >and wish to mark them up somehow... - especially where there is a lot >of user-entered or legacy data (Google would have plenty of both!) > >There are no reliable automated means of splitting such freeform text >into the seperate elements required by hcard and to expect everyone to >manually re-enter everything is definately asking too much! > >Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/vcard >but can still be very useful to humans! >- it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what >anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! I addressed this in: but people (Brian Suda, chiefly) insisted that my suggestion should not be followed, and that such addresses should instead be wrapped with class="label" - which is supposedly for: "formatted text corresponding to delivery address" Note the use of "formatted". More recently, Tantek added: which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, but outside the USA) -- Andy Mabbett From tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk Thu Aug 2 01:31:53 2007 From: tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk (Farndon, Tony) Date: Thu Aug 2 01:31:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF688@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> Hi Alex Have you tried my Minimap Firefox Addon?? It goes some way to what you were suggesting, in that it stores addresses/placemarks locally in your firefox profile, along with the url from where that address/location was from so that you can geographically browse. All placemarks are displayed in a sidebar map (optionally a fullscreen 'Map Tab' displays all the info) and from this sidebar you can open up the placemarks corresponding url in a new tab. Although microformats is not in the extension per se, there is an operator script that sends uf addresses or geo to the placemark list (why reinvent the wheel having two extensions parse the same page every time!). For websites not yet uf adr enabled, you just drag and drop the address text onto the sidebar to add. The extension also supports kml links including google MyMaps. http://firefox.spatialviews.com Shameless plug over, Tony -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Alex Faaborg Sent: 01 August 2007 19:31 To: Microformats Discuss; Kevin Marks Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps This is great, I'm really glad to see Google using microformats. Quick question about handing microformatted content back to Google Maps (using Operator, Firefox 3, etc): does your API support currently sending multiple items, and adding them to a particular map listed in My Maps? For instance, this would enable the user to select multiple hCards on a Web site and send them all to one of their maps. Or, to give a more advanced use case: a Web browser could automatically send all encountered hCards, adrs and geos to a map called "Web History." The user could then turn this map on to view all of the pieces of information they recently encountered online geographically. This could be useful when planning a vacation, searching for real estate across multiple Web sites, etc. -Alex On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: > http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2007/06/microformats-in-google- > maps.html > > Microformats in Google Maps > Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 4:28:00 PM > Posted by Gregor J. Rothfuss, Maps Team and Kevin Marks, Apps Team > > If you have spent any time in certain corners of the web, you will > have heard of Microformats: Clever uses of HTML that add > machine-readability to everyday web pages while preserving > human-readability. Microformats allow tools to make more sense of your > web pages, while not changing the visual appearance for visitors to > your site one whit. > > Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard > microformat to Google Maps results. Why should you care about some > invisible changes to our HTML? By marking up our results with the > hCard microformat, your browser can easily recognize the address and > contact information in the page, and help you transfer it to an > addressbook or phone more easily. Firefox users can install the > Operator or Tails extension; IE or Safari users can use one of these > bookmarklets. [...] _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss This email was received from the INTERNET and scanned by the Government Secure Intranet Anti-Virus service supplied by Cable&Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. (CCTM Certificate Number 2006/04/0007.) In case of problems, please call your organisation's IT Helpdesk. Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or recorded for legal purposes. +++++ The Forestry Commission's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried out on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. +++++ The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus-free From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Aug 2 01:49:32 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Aug 2 01:49:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: On 8/2/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > I addressed this in: > > I've been trying to find an explanation of what 'extended-address' actually means, the examples in the vCard spec seem to omit it. >From its order in the sequence of the fields in ADR, however, I think it's reasonably clear that it's more specific than the street address, so would be something like 'Flat 2b'. This also seems to be the common usage in hCard. For those reasons I'm unconvinced about putting all the address data available into that one field. It might be useful if someone could experiment with conforming agents to see if they can take multi-line imput for different ADR fields? > but people (Brian Suda, chiefly) insisted that my suggestion should not > be followed, and that such addresses should instead be wrapped with > class="label" - which is supposedly for: > > "formatted text corresponding to delivery address" > > Note the use of "formatted". Can you elaborate on what the issue is there? Most text on web pages is formatted, and I think in this context it just means 'with linebreaks' which fairly simple parsing rules would solve. My main hesitation about using LABEL is that it isn't part of ADR and so isn't appropriate for the ADR-without-hCard usages. > More recently, Tantek added: > > > > which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable > for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, > but outside the USA) I agree that i18n issues make this a bit too strict (I have similar reservations about the implied-n optimisations but that's tangential). IMO it may be that the best option is to say that ADR can exist without subproperties for hCard / solo-ADR use for the purposes of semantically expressing 'hey this is an address' but then to offer no mapping to vCard unless the sub-properties are present. -Ciaran McNulty From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 02:02:00 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Aug 2 02:02:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > > >>Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have now added > >>additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in particular is > >>consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all other public > >>domain contributors. > > > >Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit. > > I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject "Warning > of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above exchange of > 26 July, in: > > > > and telling me that: > > Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you > cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone on the > mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban. > > Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular > (which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish, > nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, > nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered and apt > description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand by it. If you'd like to correct my typos, please do, but the discuss mailing list isn't the venue to do so. If you feel that your response wasn't out of order, okay - feel free to say so or clarify your intent off list. > Ironically, Ms Berriman also implies that I'm a - quote - "jerk". The > OED tells me that that insult refers to "Someone of little or no > account; a fool, a stupid person". Perhaps she ought to put her own > house in order. Out of context. I simple quoted the statement from the "be nice" guidelines, as below: " Per the mailing-lists guideline "be nice": http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Be_nice "The admins may take swift action to ban or moderate individuals who essentially are "jerks" on the list." " > Also of interest is the fact that Ms Berriman signs her post "on behalf > of the microformats administration". I can find no reference to such an > organisation on the wiki or mailing list. Maybe I've missed something? This was just a politeness on my behalf, as I spoke not as an individual but for those listed on the governance section[1] of the wiki, who are refered to as the administration. I was under the impression that that would be clear enough for you. I also specifically said that you may email me if you've got any questions. I'm always more than happy to clarify things, or if you genuinely felt that you weren't in the wrong, that is up for discussion too. Holding such conversations on the discuss list isn't appropriate or helpful though. If you, or anyone else for that matter, would like to discuss this further, please email me off list. [1]http://microformats.org/wiki/governance -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 02:04:16 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Aug 2 02:04:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: On 02/08/07, Frances Berriman wrote: > This was just a politeness on my behalf, as I spoke not as an > individual but for those listed on the governance section[1] of the > wiki, who are refered to as the administration. I was under the > impression that that would be clear enough for you. My mistake. The word used is indeed "administrators", but it only needs a little bit of common sense applied. I'll be sure not to use "administration" in future. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Thu Aug 2 03:19:40 2007 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Thu Aug 2 03:19:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/8/07 20:02, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run > by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of > vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. > Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance > and rights issues which I and others have raised. Apparently they travel in black helicopters too http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Aug 2 05:45:08 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Aug 2 05:45:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <227E3647-635F-4E1A-B9A9-1428237987A1@randomchaos.com> On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:42 PM, Michael MD wrote: > Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/ > vcard but can still be very useful to humans! > - it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what > anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! > > Perhaps we do need some way to mark up such addresses so that there > could be export tools that give the user options to split them? I don't understand why we need some way to mark up such addresses. Aren't publishers already marking them up with class="adr"? A while back I wrote a tool to insert geo coordinates in hCards based on addresses: http://microformat.makedatamakesense.com/auto_geo/ That doesn't require any structure to addresses, so it works fine with adr as unstructured text. I think we'd have a hard time coming up with a better solution to this problem than the one that's already working in practice. Peace, Scott From davidjohnmead at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 06:24:56 2007 From: davidjohnmead at gmail.com (David Mead) Date: Thu Aug 2 06:24:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <0po3Tyc1GRsGFwXv@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <0po3Tyc1GRsGFwXv@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: I don't think it's Operator that's at fault. I wrote a post about trying Google Maps (http://www.viewfromw6th.com/2007/08/microformats-getting-bigger.html) as soon as I heard they were using microformats. Looking up our company address I could not pull any meaningful data out using Operator, Tails or the LeftLogic bookmarklet. Though it's great news I'm a little saddened that Google couldn't get it right first time. Dave On 8/1/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com>, Gregor J. > Rothfuss writes > > >> Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This > >> search: > >> > >> > >> > >> has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up) > >> has: > >> > >> NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps > >> N:;; > >> ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > >> FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > >> ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;; > > >i will look into it. > > Thank you. > > >operator parsing behavior has changed in recent releases, and i had to > >change the markup a couple times to make it work. > > I'm not sure that Operator has anything to do with it. > > >any suggestions what ought to be fixed? > > You could start by producing valid (X)HTML, and put your styles in an > external style sheet - that at least would make it easier to debug! > > I don't know Javascript, so can't comment on any errors in that. > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Thu Aug 2 06:35:20 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Thu Aug 2 06:37:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <227E3647-635F-4E1A-B9A9-1428237987A1@randomchaos.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> <227E3647-635F-4E1A-B9A9-1428237987A1@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <1186061720.17568.775.camel@robslap> Hi all, converting a freeform address is definitely much easier nowadays with all the geocode services out there, so nobody should have to develop their own custom parser any more. For example Google provides an excellent service so any publisher with freeform address data should not only be able to generate a geocode from that text but also retrieve a nicely sliced up structured address too. e.g. UNSTRUCTURED INPUT DATA: (To use the previous address example) 922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44 GEOCODE CALL: http://maps.google.com/maps/geo?q=922+Aldridge+Rd,+Birmingham +B44&output=json&key=YOUR_GOOGLE_API_KEY_HERE STRUCTURED OUTPUT AS JSON (or other format as requested): {"name":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44","Status":{"code":200,"request":"geocode"},"Placemark":[{"id":"p1","address":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham, Birmingham, B44 8, UK","AddressDetails":{"Country":{"CountryNameCode":"GB", "AdministrativeArea":{"AdministrativeAreaName":"England", "SubAdministrativeArea":{"SubAdministrativeAreaName":"Birmingham", "Locality":{"LocalityName":"Birmingham","Thoroughfare":{"ThoroughfareName":"922 Aldridge Rd"},"PostalCode":{"PostalCodeNumber":"B44 8"}}}}},"Accuracy": 8},"Point":{"coordinates":[-1.903576,52.544932,0]}}]} So now you have nicely structured hCard data:
922 Aldridge Rd
Birmingham, Birmingham, B44
England
But I'm sure I'm telling you all how to suck eggs 8) Rob Manson BTW Scott...I tried your auto_geo tool and got the following error: Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@microformat.makedatamakesense.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error. More information about this error may be available in the server error log. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. From tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk Thu Aug 2 06:46:22 2007 From: tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk (Farndon, Tony) Date: Thu Aug 2 06:46:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF68D@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> Has anyone built a page that would allow anyone to enter a freeform address, it gets sent to googles geocoder, does it's magic on the json output and then creates a fully marked up adr with children (plus a geo span whilst it is at it) for them to copy and paste? If not, could one be produced to compliment the hcard creator? T. -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Rob Manson Sent: 02 August 2007 14:35 To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Hi all, converting a freeform address is definitely much easier nowadays with all the geocode services out there, so nobody should have to develop their own custom parser any more. For example Google provides an excellent service so any publisher with freeform address data should not only be able to generate a geocode from that text but also retrieve a nicely sliced up structured address too. e.g. UNSTRUCTURED INPUT DATA: (To use the previous address example) 922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44 GEOCODE CALL: http://maps.google.com/maps/geo?q=922+Aldridge+Rd,+Birmingham +B44&output=json&key=YOUR_GOOGLE_API_KEY_HERE STRUCTURED OUTPUT AS JSON (or other format as requested): {"name":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44","Status":{"code":200,"request":"geocode"},"Placemark":[{"id":"p1"," address":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham, Birmingham, B44 8, UK","AddressDetails":{"Country":{"CountryNameCode":"GB", "AdministrativeArea":{"AdministrativeAreaName":"England", "SubAdministrativeArea":{"SubAdministrativeAreaName":"Birmingham", "Locality":{"LocalityName":"Birmingham","Thoroughfare":{"ThoroughfareNam e":"922 Aldridge Rd"},"PostalCode":{"PostalCodeNumber":"B44 8"}}}}},"Accuracy": 8},"Point":{"coordinates":[-1.903576,52.544932,0]}}]} So now you have nicely structured hCard data:
922 Aldridge Rd
Birmingham, Birmingham, B44
England
But I'm sure I'm telling you all how to suck eggs 8) Rob Manson BTW Scott...I tried your auto_geo tool and got the following error: Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@microformat.makedatamakesense.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error. More information about this error may be available in the server error log. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss This email was received from the INTERNET and scanned by the Government Secure Intranet Anti-Virus service supplied by Cable&Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. (CCTM Certificate Number 2006/04/0007.) In case of problems, please call your organisation's IT Helpdesk. Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or recorded for legal purposes. +++++ The Forestry Commission's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried out on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. +++++ The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus-free From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Thu Aug 2 08:34:04 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:01:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats in Google Maps References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: Andy Mabbett wrote: > > which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable > for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, > but outside the USA) I'm with Andy on this one. In fact, Tantek's proposed algorithm doesn't even solve the problem of parsing US addresses. Consider:

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I recently had to write some code to transfer almost 500,000 addresses from a loosely formatted list to one which had separate fields for house name, address, town, county, country and postcode. Because these were almost entirely UK addresses, and I had a big database of all UK postal town and corresponding postcodes, I was able to get about 95% accuracy -- but that involved hundreds of lines of code. To cover a useful number of countries would require tens of thousands of lines of code. Requiring the use of heuristics to parse address data raises the barrier to entry for implementing hCard astronomically. Andy's suggestion of defaulting to "extended-address" is better, though given the semantics of "extended-address", which appears to be for flat numbers, I'd prefer to default to "street-address". How about: Where "adr" has content not enclosed in any explicit sub- properties, parsers MAY attempt to heuristically determine the address parts and, if appropriate, MAY ask the user to manually separate the address. Failing that, parsers MUST assume this content to be the "street-address". -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 42 days, 18:43.] Open Mobile Alliance DTD Oops! http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/xhtml-mobile-oops/ From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Thu Aug 2 06:55:09 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:22:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF68D@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> References: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF68D@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> Message-ID: <1186062909.17568.791.camel@robslap> We do that internally via some scripts so I'd be happy to contribute one if more than a couple of people are interested in it. It could be a nice parallel to the vCard to hCard converter I contributed too. Rob On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 14:46 +0100, Farndon, Tony wrote: > Has anyone built a page that would allow anyone to enter a freeform > address, it gets sent to googles geocoder, does it's magic on the json > output and then creates a fully marked up adr with children (plus a geo > span whilst it is at it) for them to copy and paste? > > If not, could one be produced to compliment the hcard creator? > > T. From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Thu Aug 2 09:24:09 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:24:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/2/07 8:34 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> >> which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable >> for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, >> but outside the USA) > > I'm with Andy on this one. To be clear, I wanted to document it as a brainstorm to be critiqued, with severe doubts myself, from the second paragraph in that section, which I wrote: "This may also be too difficult/complex to be dependable or interoperable, but it is worth at least documenting our considerations and analysis either way." In general, the documentation of such "strawman" thoughts and criticisms of such is just good science. Not every brainstorm should be taken as a proposal that is intended to be adopted. >
Please add examples that show problems with it to the section with the brainstorm rather than the emails list. And no need to try to be comprehensive about showing problems with it, one or two examples will do for now, given the doubts expressed from the origin. > I recently had to write some code to transfer almost 500,000 addresses > from a loosely formatted list to one which had separate fields for house > name, address, town, county, country and postcode. > > Because these were almost entirely UK addresses, and I had a big database > of all UK postal town and corresponding postcodes, I was able to get about > 95% accuracy -- but that involved hundreds of lines of code. To cover a > useful number of countries would require tens of thousands of lines of > code. This is a useful datapoint. Note that it doesn't prove difficulty (in that someone else may be able to write simpler/more efficient code, or not), but any such implementation experience is useful to capture. > Requiring the use of heuristics to parse address data raises the barrier to > entry for implementing hCard astronomically. Perhaps not "astronomically", but I agree with your sentiment. ;) > Andy's suggestion of defaulting to "extended-address" is better, though > given the semantics of "extended-address", which appears to be for flat > numbers, I'd prefer to default to "street-address". I'd prefer neither. I think there would be too much semantic dilution (or artificial semantic precision) by doing so (putting things that don't have a certain semantic into a field that implies that semantic). > How about: > > Where "adr" has content not enclosed in any explicit sub- > properties, parsers MAY attempt to heuristically determine > the address parts and, if appropriate, MAY ask the user > to manually separate the address. Failing that, parsers > MUST assume this content to be the "street-address". I'm not even sure about permitting the heuristic part. I think for now the simplest and most interoperable (and what I think implementations already do) is to make this an FAQ (because the spec already doesn't say to do anything with adr without any subproperty): http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#adr_without_children_FAQ Thanks, Tantek From rothfuss at google.com Thu Aug 2 09:47:20 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:47:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <1186020295.17568.690.camel@robslap> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> <1186020295.17568.690.camel@robslap> Message-ID: <8068b42c0708020947k1170f20bxf66103e54dd43304@mail.gmail.com> ah. i have not implemented microformats for geocodes yet. they are stored and handled differently. if i get some of that 20% time (heh) i will add support for it. On 8/1/07, Rob Manson wrote: > Hi Gregor, > > I just followed the tinyurl link that Andy Mabbett posted to the list > which lead to a Google Maps search: > > http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl > > Then did a "view selection source" on the address in the left hand > panel. > > Hope that helps... > > > Rob Manson > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Aug 2 10:03:36 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Aug 2 10:03:57 2007 Subject: [admin] Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> On Aug 1, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > >>> Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have >>> now added >>> additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in >>> particular is >>> consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all >>> other public >>> domain contributors. >> >> Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit. > > I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject > "Warning > of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above > exchange of > 26 July, in: > > July/010261.html> > > and telling me that: > > Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you > cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone > on the > mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban. > > Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular > (which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish, > nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, > nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered > and apt > description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand > by it. The microformats admins have decided to ban Andy Mabbet from this community (both email lists and wiki) for one week, due to continued failure to adhere to the "be nice" guideline [1] after a private warning. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Be_nice Sincerely, Scott Reynen From thom at ts0.com Thu Aug 2 11:50:30 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Thu Aug 2 11:50:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B22776.5020004@ts0.com> did you carry on working on the idea of showing whats a microformat in the page? There was talk of a mouse cursor change when a user hovers over. The last mockup i saw had an icon at the end of the address bar with action. I think both of those would be a good way forward. I started a thread a while ago about the idea of coming up with a more user friendly name/description for microformats. You supported the idea then, has there been any thought on it from the FF guys? From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 13:08:56 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 13:08:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties Message-ID: I don't know if there's much interest in XOXO anymore, with sexier new h* monikers and all, but I seem to have great appreciation for this simple format. I am currently trying to understand how to best parse and understand the meaning of XOXO-ed content, and need some guidance/ideas on properties, specifically these: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Special_Properties Here are some thoughts on parsing of properties that I put down: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-brainstorming#Parsing_Properties My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code that does something unacceptable or illogical. Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something bigger and better? :DG< From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 14:07:54 2007 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Thu Aug 2 14:07:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> Hi Dmitri, On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > bigger and better? I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? -enp From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 15:47:14 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 15:47:16 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues :DG< On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > Hi Dmitri, > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > bigger and better? > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > -enp > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From kevinmarks at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:03:27 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:03:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> there are python and java versions here, with some tests http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al would be a fine idea. On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > :DG< > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > bigger and better? > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > -enp > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:27:38 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:27:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO multi-valued property notation Message-ID: The description of how to specify multi-valued properties, recorded on xoxo-faq page seems logical and I think it belongs in the spec. Any objections if I move it over there? Perhaps right below the Special Properties? From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:30:26 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:30:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Can you point me to the existing tests? On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > there are python and java versions here, with some tests > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code > > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al > would be a fine idea. > > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > > > :DG< > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > > bigger and better? > > > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > > > -enp > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From kevinmarks at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:50:06 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:50:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code#testxoxo.py and similarly fro other languages (this code predates the repository). On Aug 2, 2007 5:30 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > Can you point me to the existing tests? > > > On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > > there are python and java versions here, with some tests > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code > > > > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al > > would be a fine idea. > > > > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > > > > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > > > > > :DG< > > > > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > > > bigger and better? > > > > > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > > > > > -enp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:54:58 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:55:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry. The HTML + JSON style tests... in other words, the test to which to convert. I don't think I am familiar with those. :DG< On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code#testxoxo.py > > and similarly fro other languages (this code predates the repository). > > On Aug 2, 2007 5:30 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > Can you point me to the existing tests? > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > > > there are python and java versions here, with some tests > > > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code > > > > > > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al > > > would be a fine idea. > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > > > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > > > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > > > > > > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > > > > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > > > > > > > :DG< > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > > > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > > > > bigger and better? > > > > > > > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > > > > > > > -enp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Thu Aug 2 19:10:56 2007 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Thu Aug 2 19:10:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour) In-Reply-To: <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > The microformats admins have decided to ban Andy Mabbet from this > community (both email lists and wiki) for one week, due to continued > failure to adhere to the "be nice" guideline [1] after a private warning. I don't condone Andy's tone when replying to the thread that started all of this. I think it is important to note that he is one of the more frequent contributors to this community and constantly challenges the ideas and concepts that are just accepted around here without explanation. While I don't always agree with Andy, he does have a knack for making logically sound arguments. It is vital to have people that can challenge the status quo, people such as Andy, involved in a community such as this. His replies reflect reservations that several members of this community choose not to express out of fear of retaliation. In this case the topic is: the insistence that we should not raise legal matters on the mailing list. The reasoning for not discussing legal matters on the list is not clear. It is ironic that in an open community, such as this, that we have any taboo topics... but here we are. The only attempt at explaining this why we cannot speak about legal matters is that nobody on here is a legal expert, including the admins. If that is the case, I think there is something that we can do to solve that issue. I propose that we get the Electronic Frontier Foundation involved. If not the EFF, then Creative Commons. Each of those organizations believe in the open exchange of information and have lawyers on the payroll. I volunteer to get the ball rolling if necessary. Thoughts and suggestions? -- manu From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 19:59:16 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 19:59:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, I see. Is this what you were referring to? hReview: http://tinyurl.com/3xgxlu JSON: http://tinyurl.com/2k7bff Looks pretty neat, if you ask me. Ryan, what more I should know about this? Perhaps we could connect on IRC tomorrow to discuss applying this to XOXO. :DG< From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 20:23:24 2007 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:23:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour) In-Reply-To: <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <230C286C-6FFE-4EF8-AFA6-A1FC4FBC4783@gmail.com> Hi Manu, On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:10 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: > The reasoning for not discussing legal matters on the list is not > clear. > It is ironic that in an open community, such as this, that we have any > taboo topics... but here we are. I an not a lawyer, but my understanding is that any public statements made by the adminstrators regarding legal matters could be used against them in case of legal action. Given the explicit goal of Microformats.org to avoid any sort of formal bureacracy, I suspect that there was a collective decision to simply avoid the issue altogether. If you want something more formal, you may want to look at GRDDL. :-) -- Ernie P. From microformats at 200ok.com.au Thu Aug 2 21:05:52 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Thu Aug 2 21:05:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> > > Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run > > by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of > > vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. > > Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance > > and rights issues which I and others have raised. > Apparently they travel in black helicopters too I don't think we should make light of this point. I've heard several people cite this impression as the reason they don't contribute to microformats. If we can't address the problem then I don't see how we can attract and retain active members. More than once I've observed unresolved discussions cut off with a post saying "wiki updated, issue closed". So, why would someone take time out of their day to contribute to a discussion if they expect to be ignored? To put it another way, if the core group is going to do as it pleases regardless of community discussion, why are the rest of us here? The core group is not a defined/invited/elected group so it's not like a W3C discussion list, where people understand they are giving feedback but will not be involved in the final decision. The expectation was that everyone could contribute, but that's not how it actually feels. I am not trying to be troublesome, I am expressing a genuine concern about this community. I don't think it serves anyone's purpose to ignore what many people feel is true. The informal approach worked well when the community was new and smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by accepting there's a problem. cheers, Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From ckstjohn at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 22:56:00 2007 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Thu Aug 2 22:56:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ba906450708022256k5b96339cse144f1aaef881a32@mail.gmail.com> On 8/3/07, Ben Buchanan wrote: > > The informal approach worked well when the community was new and > smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. > I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by > accepting there's a problem. > The IETF, that master of rough consensus and running code[1], is often sited as an example of a group that is good at lightweight standards development. And it is. But a closer look shows that "lightweight process" is not at all the same as "no process whatsoever." A quick read through the home page for the The Internet Engineering Steering Group[2] shows that there is quite a lot of hard-won wisdom about how groups of grown-ups[3] cooperate to produce a standard. The IETF process is not without problems, and I'm not suggesting it's something that should be copied, but it is a good example of how some real governance is necessary even for a very results-focused group of engineers. FWIW. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_consensus [2] http://www.ietf.org/iesg.html [3] And/or prickly unsocialized prima donna engineers pretending to be grown-ups :-) -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 06:17:36 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Fri Aug 3 06:17:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: To me, the issue was not about freedom of expression or lack thereof. It was about putting a damper on a bilious jackass attitude and behavior. I doubt the actual topic of discussion was in question. Yeah, we all could probably benefit from a good social behavior class (ok, I can't _really_ speak for everyone) , but personal insults, insinuations, and conspiracy-mongering are clearly out of line. :DG< On 8/2/07, Ben Buchanan wrote: > > > Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run > > > by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of > > > vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. > > > Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance > > > and rights issues which I and others have raised. > > Apparently they travel in black helicopters too > > I don't think we should make light of this point. I've heard several > people cite this impression as the reason they don't contribute to > microformats. If we can't address the problem then I don't see how we > can attract and retain active members. > > More than once I've observed unresolved discussions cut off with a > post saying "wiki updated, issue closed". So, why would someone take > time out of their day to contribute to a discussion if they expect to > be ignored? > > To put it another way, if the core group is going to do as it pleases > regardless of community discussion, why are the rest of us here? > > The core group is not a defined/invited/elected group so it's not like > a W3C discussion list, where people understand they are giving > feedback but will not be involved in the final decision. The > expectation was that everyone could contribute, but that's not how it > actually feels. > > I am not trying to be troublesome, I am expressing a genuine concern > about this community. I don't think it serves anyone's purpose to > ignore what many people feel is true. > > The informal approach worked well when the community was new and > smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. > I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by > accepting there's a problem. > > cheers, > Ben > > -- > --- > --- The future has arrived; it's just not > --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From eric at meyerweb.com Fri Aug 3 07:10:07 2007 From: eric at meyerweb.com (Eric A. Meyer) Date: Fri Aug 3 07:11:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour) In-Reply-To: <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: At 10:10 PM -0400 8/2/07, Manu Sporny wrote: >It is vital to have people that can challenge >the status quo, people such as Andy, involved in a community such as this. I agree that challenges to the status quo can be useful, but it is NOT valuable to have members of community who will challenge it in abusive ways-- any more than it is useful to have members who will defend it in abusive ways. (I'm not saying you are such a person, Manu; just pointing out that the need to be non-abusive extends to everyone, regardless of where they stand on any issue.) >His replies reflect reservations that several members of this community >choose not to express out of fear of retaliation. To date, the administrators-- of which I could be considered an unofficial member, though I've done next to no administrative work since the list was founded-- have not "retaliated". Ever. They act to defend and preserve the community's nature, and do so with great reluctance. Too much reluctance, in my opinion, but that's the nature of this community. Andy does not get banned for challenging the status quo or expressing reservations. Andy gets himself temporarily banned from time to time because he can't seem to bring himself to treat other members of the community with respect and civility, nor to avoid borderline trollish behaviors. I think that's a shame, because much of the time I find myself in at least partial agreement with what (I think) he's trying to say. But if that sounds in any way like a defense of Andy's attitude or criticism of the administrators' actions, it is neither. Nobody has the right to poison discourse and damage the community, no matter what they're trying to say. -- Eric A. Meyer (eric@meyerweb.com) Principal, Complex Spiral Consulting http://complexspiral.com/ "CSS: The Definitive Guide," "CSS2.0 Programmer's Reference," "Eric Meyer on CSS," and more http://meyerweb.com/eric/books/ From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 08:50:01 2007 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Fri Aug 3 08:50:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Govermance: RE inappropriate behaviour In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3029281A-1F46-40AE-A503-3257B4AA150D@gmail.com> Hi Ben, On Aug 2, 2007, at 9:05 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: > The informal approach worked well when the community was new and > smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. > I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by > accepting there's a problem. I strongly encourage you to contribute to the governance-issues wiki page: http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues THAT is the appropriate venue for expressing such concerns, and proposing concrete corrective actions. I've taken several stabs at this issue before, but had to pull back since there wasn't strong evidence of broader public concern. If there is a widespread problem, I hope interested parties would be willing to stand up and be counted. Best, -- Ernie P. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Aug 3 09:38:15 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Aug 3 10:01:19 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Profile/XDMP/GRDDL Critique Message-ID: Dear all, I've been working on improving the metadata profile for my content management system. (Yes, a CMS that takes metadata seriously at last!) Here's the profile: http://demiblog.org/schemes/metadata?ver=0.2.2 I've attempted to correctly use XDMP and GRDDL, but I'm not 100% confident that I've got it right. Does anyone have any hints on how the document could be improved to make it into a more useful metadata profile? For an example of a site that *uses* the metadata profile, see my sig. Thanks in advance, -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 43 days, 20:09.] Command Line Interfaces, Again http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/command-line-again/ From taylor_cowan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 12:23:45 2007 From: taylor_cowan at yahoo.com (Taylor Cowan) Date: Fri Aug 3 12:23:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-tag links with # Message-ID: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In using hAtom I was interested in populating the "@scheme" attribute of the Atom category. For example: It's interesting to me to know from where the tag comes, which community or folksonomy is it part of. It's valuable information that gets lost in the rel-tag parse as indicated by the spec today. Then I found that '#' anchors are ignored based on the defacto standards. (http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues) What impressed by is that the defacto standards pretty much entail that the last token of the link (/a/b/lastoken) and the label ( ..>label ) are nearly always the same. This holds for nearly every example I've looked at. The concept of having a label, a visual display for a tag, is completely foreign to my understanding of tags....and yet the rel-tag allows for this. That's so odd, because tags are normally just that...the tag and nothing but the tag. I'd also bring to the discussion the theme of visual human readable data...wherein it seems preferable to have the link, and the tag be the same: (although perfectly acceptable by rel-tag) should be: (this is the defacto standard, it's not weird like the previous example) and could also be (still abides by URL standards) What I find most ironic is that the defacto standards mentioned on the wiki, flickr and del.icio.us, don't even use rel-tag (or at least not yet). the HREF is valuable as a link to more information about the tag, from whence it came, related items, and the value of the tag should contain the tag itself, as is the defacto standard and "ESTABLISHED PRACTICE" on both flickr and del.icio.us. I propose at the very least that '#' be allowed in the rel-tag spec...if we're writing weird parsers to snip of that last term based on '/', we might as well add '#' as a delimiter, and it would even be better if the spec can be reconciled with how tags are really used on the web, ie, the display text defines the tag. Taylor ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From kevinmarks at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 13:12:45 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Fri Aug 3 13:13:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-tag links with # In-Reply-To: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73766b160708031312v77225b83pedde4196dc84213@mail.gmail.com> On Aug 3, 2007 12:23 PM, Taylor Cowan wrote: > In using hAtom I was interested in populating the "@scheme" attribute of the Atom category. > For example: > > > > > It's interesting to me to know from where the tag comes, which community or folksonomy is it part of. It's valuable information that gets lost in the rel-tag parse as indicated by the spec today. That is the tagspace part for the URL, eg for htttp://technorati.com/tag/goat 'goat' is the tag and 'htttp://technorati.com/tag/' is the tagspace. This maps to the Atom scheme directly. > > Then I found that '#' anchors are ignored based on the defacto standards. (http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues) This is by design. > > What impressed by is that the defacto standards pretty much entail that the last token of the link (/a/b/lastoken) and the label ( ..>label ) are nearly always the same. This holds for nearly every example I've looked at. The concept of having a label, a visual display for a tag, is completely foreign to my understanding of tags....and yet the rel-tag allows for this. That's so odd, because tags are normally just that...the tag and nothing but the tag. I'd also bring to the discussion the theme of visual human readable data...wherein it seems preferable to have the link, and the tag be the same: > > (although perfectly acceptable by rel-tag) > > should be: > > (this is the defacto standard, it's not weird like the previous example) > > and could also be > > (still abides by URL standards) no, this is tagging it 'mytags' The Display text allows a human-readable tag where the underlying url is less so eg > > What I find most ironic is that the defacto standards mentioned on the wiki, flickr and del.icio.us, don't even use rel-tag (or at least not yet). the HREF is valuable as a link to more information about the tag, from whence it came, related items, and the value of the tag should contain the tag itself, as is the defacto standard and "ESTABLISHED PRACTICE" on both flickr and del.icio.us. > > I propose at the very least that '#' be allowed in the rel-tag spec...if we're writing weird parsers to snip of that last term based on '/', we might as well add '#' as a delimiter, and it would even be better if the spec can be reconciled with how tags are really used on the web, ie, the display text defines the tag. The reason we chose path component was a) this was existing practice and b) it provides some protection against using totally arbitrary URLs as tagspaces, which creates spam jeopardy. You need to link to a real tagspace that behaves sensibly if someone clicks on it. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Aug 3 14:24:53 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Aug 3 15:01:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel-tag links with # References: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52jco4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Taylor Cowan wrote: > > (although perfectly acceptable by rel-tag) It rarely happens, but it would be good if it happened more. That way, people whouldn't need to have an explicit list of tags at the end of the article -- the tag links would be scattered throughout the text as appropriate, which is more human-friendly. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 44 days, 1:03.] Command Line Interfaces, Again http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/command-line-again/ From chris.messina at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 10:27:41 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sat Aug 4 10:27:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel-tag links with # In-Reply-To: <52jco4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <52jco4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: For the record, that's how I tag my blog posts -- using links throughout a post. Not many people are aware of this convention however, nor the reliance on the last URL fragment as the actual tag. Still, that reliance allows me to embed meta characteristics without the awkward list of tags after the content. Chris Sent from my iPhone On Aug 3, 2007, at 5:24 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Taylor Cowan wrote: > >> subscribe Organiser 1 From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 02:03:11 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Aug 7 02:03:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] RubHub closing down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780708070203x5486eddvf6e6319511ce9ad8@mail.gmail.com> On 8/6/07, David Mead wrote: > I just saw that RubHub is closing down. Does anyone know of any other > sites out there that are doing, or plan to do, the same sort of thing? --- and/or if there is any plans to release the source code. I know Technorati uses kitchen.technorati.com and is spidering microformats, at the moment they are not displaying XFN (if they index it), having the code available would help others mirror what RubHub has done. Does anyone have a contact at RubHub? or are they on this list? -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From raydaly at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 05:38:24 2007 From: raydaly at gmail.com (Ray Daly) Date: Tue Aug 7 05:38:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Combining hCard and hCalendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To solve a problem like this, I include all the vcard info within one cell and then set the display attribute to none. The vcard did not get displayed but was read by both of the Firefox plugins. On 8/7/07, Peter Bremer wrote: > > > I've got a table that lists a number of events and their organisers. > > > I'd like to include both hCalendars for the events, and hCards for the > > > organisers. > > > > > > Since each event is listen along with its organiser in a table row, > > > I've given CLASS="vcard vevent" to the TR. However, now I notice some > > > of the hCard and hCalendar attributes clash, especially "url" in my > > > case. The url is only meant to be included in the hCalendar, not in > > > the hCard. > > > > > > How should I handle this case where hCards and hCalendars are mixed > > > together, without getting conflicting attributes? > > > > Do you have a live URL we can look at? Ideally you'd have > > class="vcard organizer" within the vevent rather than class="vcard > > vevent", limiting the scope of the hCard to the actual contact > > information. That can be more complex in tables, but it is > > possible. See: > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar- > > brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars > > > > Peace, > > Scott > > The site is dynamic and on the intranet, so difficult to show > something, but the basic layout of the table is thus: > > | Event 1 | 01-01-2007 | example.org/event1 | Organiser 1 | email1@example.org | > | Event 2 | 02-02-2007 | example.org/event2 | Organiser 1 | email1@example.org | > | Event 3 | 03-03-2007 | example.org/event3 | Organiser 2 | email2@example.org | > > I would like to be able to extract 2 contacts and 3 events from this > table, and the url (example.org/eventx) should only be connected to > the event. > My table row template is as follows: > > > Event 1 > 2007-01-01 > subscribe > Organiser 1 > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Blog- http://www.abcedmindedness.com From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Aug 7 06:34:34 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Aug 7 06:34:43 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Combining hCard and hCalendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22DA2C98-DFE2-4C94-9AA3-2A47EA086D0C@randomchaos.com> On Aug 7, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Peter Bremer wrote: > The site is dynamic and on the intranet, so difficult to show > something, but the basic layout of the table is thus: > > | Event 1 | 01-01-2007 | example.org/event1 | Organiser 1 | > email1@example.org | > | Event 2 | 02-02-2007 | example.org/event2 | Organiser 1 | > email1@example.org | > | Event 3 | 03-03-2007 | example.org/event3 | Organiser 2 | > email2@example.org | > > I would like to be able to extract 2 contacts and 3 events from this > table, and the url (example.org/eventx) should only be connected to > the event. > My table row template is as follows: > > > Event 1 > 2007-01-01 > subscribe a> > Organiser 1 > subscribe Organiser 1 Also, I'm guessing you probably want "dtstart" instead of "dtstamp". The former indicates when an event is happening, the latter when it was published. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern Peace, Scott From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Tue Aug 7 06:35:31 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Tue Aug 7 06:35:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Combining hCard and hCalendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/7/07, Peter Bremer wrote: > My table row template is as follows: > > > Event 1 > 2007-01-01 > subscribe > Organiser 1 > > This is pretty tricky, as there's no valid element that can wrap around the TDs. I think something like the following may make semantic sense: Event 1 2007-01-01 subscribe Organiser 1 But a close reading of the HTML spec would be required, and I doubt any parsers would pick it up.. -Ciaran McNulty From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 06:53:25 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Aug 7 06:53:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Combining hCard and hCalendar In-Reply-To: <22DA2C98-DFE2-4C94-9AA3-2A47EA086D0C@randomchaos.com> References: <22DA2C98-DFE2-4C94-9AA3-2A47EA086D0C@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <21e770780708070653w462d405bi3c9852313da71f3d@mail.gmail.com> On 8/7/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Aug 7, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Peter Bremer wrote: > > > The site is dynamic and on the intranet, so difficult to show > > something, but the basic layout of the table is thus: > Someone more familiar with table column semantics could maybe explain > how that works (I've never used it), but you could also do this with > the include pattern [1]: --- table semantics pop-up every once and awhile, and i keep meaning to scribble some more notes down on the wiki, but never have time. Tables have several additional semantic attributes, such as AXIS, HEADER, and SCOPE. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars There is even a note saying TODO, but we?ve never gotten around to it. It requires some back-ground reading and abit of homework, but X2V supports it. header/id call-backs. This might help you get some of the results you are looking for, in a semantic fashion as well. Sorry i can't be more help. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From paul.kinlan at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 08:19:09 2007 From: paul.kinlan at gmail.com (Paul Kinlan) Date: Tue Aug 7 08:19:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Micro Summary Message-ID: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I am working on a site that aggregates updates to websites (http://www.topicala.com/popular - it is parsing rel-tag at the moment). It is working well (as a hack at the moment), I would like to include some summary information about the sites that I am aggregating. I am thinking of using "META description" for now (but I am not sure of the quality of data in the tag), however, I have been looking at micro-summary (http://microformats.org/wiki/microsummary-brainstorming). Is this topic still alive? Has anyone been developing this? Are there any other similar developments (that I have missed)? If not, how can I help? Having micro summaries would solve part of a problem that I am having (other than what I suspect is lack of useage at the moment). Kind Regards, Paul Kinlan From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 08:35:12 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Tue Aug 7 08:35:16 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO multi-valued property notation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI, moved to spec: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Multi-value_Properties :DG< On 8/2/07, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > The description of how to specify multi-valued properties, recorded on > xoxo-faq page seems logical and I think it belongs in the spec. Any > objections if I move it over there? Perhaps right below the Special > Properties? > From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Aug 7 09:36:14 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Aug 7 09:36:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Micro Summary In-Reply-To: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/7/07 8:19 AM, "Paul Kinlan" wrote: > Hi, > I am working on a site that aggregates updates to websites > (http://www.topicala.com/popular - it is parsing rel-tag at the > moment). It is working well (as a hack at the moment), I would like > to include some summary information about the sites that I am > aggregating. > > I am thinking of using "META description" for now (but I am not sure > of the quality of data in the tag), http://microformats.org/wiki/page-summary-formats#Meta_description > however, I have been looking at > micro-summary (http://microformats.org/wiki/microsummary-brainstorming). > Is this topic still alive? Has anyone been developing this? Are > there any other similar developments (that I have missed)? Thanks for the heads up. That topic (aside from being prematurely named with a buzzword) has been quite dead for a while in addition to not following the microformats process to begin with. I've tried to clean-up and collect the bits of research around it that had been done here: http://microformats.org/wiki/page-summary > If not, how can I help? Having micro summaries would solve part of a > problem that I am having (other than what I suspect is lack of useage > at the moment). Lack of usage is a *big* problem. If you can't find examples in the wild (though I think you probably could), then it's not worth pursuing a page-summary microformat. If you want to help develop a page summary microformat, I'd say the first things to do would be to: 1. make your site (http://www.topicala.com/popular/) POSH: * http://microformats.org/wiki/posh 2. add microformats to your site: * http://microformats.org/wiki/get-started 3. follow the microformats process for page-summary: * http://microformats.org/wiki/process Steps 1 and 2 will better help you familiarize yourself with how POSH and microformats currently work - that "real world" experience will greatly help you with the development a new microformat. Tantek From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Aug 7 09:42:31 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Aug 7 09:42:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Micro Summary In-Reply-To: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> On Aug 7, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote: > I am thinking of using "META description" for now (but I am not sure > of the quality of data in the tag), however, I have been looking at > micro-summary (http://microformats.org/wiki/microsummary- > brainstorming). > Is this topic still alive? Has anyone been developing this? Are > there any other similar developments (that I have missed)? > > If not, how can I help? Having micro summaries would solve part of a > problem that I am having (other than what I suspect is lack of useage > at the moment). I think the problem statement first needs clarification. As you point out, meta descriptions already provide summary information about web pages. What exactly are the problems with meta descriptions, and how would micro-summary solve them? If there's a compelling use case (for publishers, not just consumers), the next step is to collect examples of current publishing of this type of information. Then we can start analyzing both whether there's enough of it to be worth continuing, and if so, how we might structure it to be more machine-readable. Peace, Scott From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 12:36:18 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Aug 7 12:36:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Micro Summary In-Reply-To: <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> References: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <21e770780708071236k62e5d41cr8aa10fc23851f99e@mail.gmail.com> On 8/7/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Aug 7, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote: > > > I am thinking of using "META description" for now (but I am not sure > > of the quality of data in the tag), however, I have been looking at > > micro-summary (http://microformats.org/wiki/microsummary- > > brainstorming). > > Is this topic still alive? Has anyone been developing this? Are > > there any other similar developments (that I have missed)? --- some of this has been sucked-up into hAtom. If you blog is marked-up with hAtom, then each entry could possibly contain a class="entry-summary". On individual permalink pages, this could serve as an excellent summary of that page. I would also look into reusing some of the existing microformats as well. hAtom might solve what you are looking for. Since rel-tag is used in conjunction with hAtom, you could extract the entry-summary to associate with those tags. If the tag is inside an hCard or hCalendar, then you could extract the SUMMARY or FN from those. Instead of looking for something in the page to tell you what it is about, what about in context to the rel-tag? if it is inside other microformats, then you can use the existing semantics of those formats to glean summary information. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From paul.kinlan at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:15:54 2007 From: paul.kinlan at gmail.com (Paul Kinlan) Date: Tue Aug 7 13:15:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Micro Summary In-Reply-To: <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> References: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <1f8270600708071315g20ef825fn5a3efe4058d9269d@mail.gmail.com> Scott, > I think the problem statement first needs clarification. As you > point out, meta descriptions already provide summary information > about web pages. What exactly are the problems with meta > descriptions, and how would micro-summary solve them? I agree I think the problem needs to be clearly defiend. My problem in particular is that I need to display useful information about the target link. Meta description useage is fairly limited from some simple measurements I have made and from my "target demographic". A micro summary would be useful for visability reasons i.e I can display on my results the same summary that is on the target page. > If there's a compelling use case (for publishers, not just consumers) I have always had this problem about microformats is that in my opinon the only way to get publishers to use them is to have consumers explictly state that the consume them. But, by the by, I intend to consume them in this project :) > the next > step is to collect examples of current publishing of this type of > information. Then we can start analyzing both whether there's enough > of it to be worth continuing, and if so, how we might structure it to > be more machine-readable. Agreed, but I am a bit impetoues and I want it now!! :) I think what I will do (and is probably the suggested way) is use what we already have, having read some of the stuff on the wiki I think I can make use of several existing formats (as suggested by brian). And although the usage of such formats appears limited at the moment I can either get the microformat community to use my site (as long as it is usefull I suppose) and then if other people want to use the site they can implent microformats on their site too! > Peace, > Scott Kind Regards Paul. From paul.kinlan at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 13:22:46 2007 From: paul.kinlan at gmail.com (Paul Kinlan) Date: Tue Aug 7 13:22:48 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Micro Summary In-Reply-To: <21e770780708071236k62e5d41cr8aa10fc23851f99e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> <21e770780708071236k62e5d41cr8aa10fc23851f99e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f8270600708071322n5a4aee86ufc9daa82fb21f04c@mail.gmail.com> Brian, Thanks for the information. I think you have a good point, I can use all the methods (given time to write the parser in terms of topicala), and fallback to meta description if all else fails. So if you use microformats you look better on my site and the results should be in context to the information on the target page, hopefully it will encourage uptake of microformats too... if people use my site ;) On a side note, does any one have any information "quantites" of useage of things like hAtom. Kind Regards, Paul Kinlan On 07/08/07, Brian Suda wrote: > On 8/7/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote: > > > > > I am thinking of using "META description" for now (but I am not sure > > > of the quality of data in the tag), however, I have been looking at > > > micro-summary (http://microformats.org/wiki/microsummary- > > > brainstorming). > > > Is this topic still alive? Has anyone been developing this? Are > > > there any other similar developments (that I have missed)? > > --- some of this has been sucked-up into hAtom. If you blog is > marked-up with hAtom, then each entry could possibly contain a > class="entry-summary". On individual permalink pages, this could serve > as an excellent summary of that page. > > I would also look into reusing some of the existing microformats as > well. hAtom might solve what you are looking for. Since rel-tag is > used in conjunction with hAtom, you could extract the entry-summary to > associate with those tags. If the tag is inside an hCard or hCalendar, > then you could extract the SUMMARY or FN from those. Instead of > looking for something in the page to tell you what it is about, what > about in context to the rel-tag? if it is inside other microformats, > then you can use the existing semantics of those formats to glean > summary information. > > -brian > > -- > brian suda > http://suda.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Aug 7 14:10:10 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Aug 7 14:10:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Micro Summary In-Reply-To: <1f8270600708071322n5a4aee86ufc9daa82fb21f04c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> <21e770780708071236k62e5d41cr8aa10fc23851f99e@mail.gmail.com> <1f8270600708071322n5a4aee86ufc9daa82fb21f04c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <39F75E97-4AD4-4E38-AAC8-7078FE38B322@randomchaos.com> On Aug 7, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Paul Kinlan wrote: > On a side note, does any one have any information "quantites" of > useage of things like hAtom. The default theme on Blogger uses hAtom, so whatever the number is, it's growing by tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of blogs every day. Peace, Scott From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Aug 7 17:00:43 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Aug 7 17:01:42 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Micro Summary References: <1f8270600708070819y71a8521cve76399ec12198261@mail.gmail.com> <52A94C02-DE37-4344-9CD3-826AA55A0113@randomchaos.com> <21e770780708071236k62e5d41cr8aa10fc23851f99e@mail.gmail.com> <1f8270600708071322n5a4aee86ufc9daa82fb21f04c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul Kinlan wrote: > Thanks for the information. I think you have a good point, I can use > all the methods (given time to write the parser in terms of topicala), > and fallback to meta description if all else fails. Look also for . Keywords and DC.subject also may be of interest. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 48 days, 3:37.] Command Line Interfaces, Again http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/command-line-again/ From mdagn at spraci.com Tue Aug 7 18:17:28 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Tue Aug 7 18:17:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] tabular event calenders - examples? References: Message-ID: <001201c7d959$e36c97d0$116bacca@COMCEN> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars the link to the example is broken - we05.com seems to no longer exist. Is there another example somewhere? Now that I have managed to get my parser to handle include-pattern I'd like to look at any other stuff it might need to be able to do. From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 01:57:52 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Aug 8 01:57:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] tabular event calenders - examples? In-Reply-To: <001201c7d959$e36c97d0$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <001201c7d959$e36c97d0$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <21e770780708080157r199e909cta1dd5dd3b0a25c3e@mail.gmail.com> On 8/8/07, Michael MD wrote: > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars > > the link to the example is broken - we05.com seems to no longer exist. > > Is there another example somewhere? --- it is not pretty, not fast, but you can get the archive of that page here: http://web.archive.org/web/20051102094339/we05.com/program.cfm > Now that I have managed to get my parser to handle include-pattern I'd like > to look at any other stuff it might need to be able to do. --- i know John?s Microformats Book covers the Table AXIS/HEADER/ID stuff, so if you can have a look there it could give you some help. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Aug 9 11:34:05 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Aug 9 14:27:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Evidence of other tagging schemas Message-ID: I am collecting evidence of tagging, which uses schemas other than those currently used in rel-tag. Please contribute, at: -- Andy Mabbett From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Aug 10 04:00:51 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Aug 10 04:00:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: (more) HTML 5 Message-ID: <21e523c20708100400m1e40f7d2yf758708a9ce325c@mail.gmail.com> With specific discussion of semantic stuff: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/?ca=dgr-lnxw01NewHTML -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Aug 10 04:22:31 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Aug 10 05:01:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging question Message-ID: On http://example.org/article/my-php-tutorial/ I might use rel=tag to link to http://example.org/tag/programming/. But on http://example.org/tag/programming/ should I use rev=tag to link to each tagged article? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 50 days, 14:58.] Command Line Interfaces, Again http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/command-line-again/ From supercanadian at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 08:27:20 2007 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Fri Aug 10 08:27:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> Hey Toby, Yes... you could do that... It would be correct to do so... semantically speaking. See ya On 8/10/07, Toby A Inkster wrote: > On http://example.org/article/my-php-tutorial/ I might use rel=tag to link > to http://example.org/tag/programming/. > > But on http://example.org/tag/programming/ should I use rev=tag to link to > each tagged article? > > -- > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS > [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] > [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 50 days, 14:58.] > > Command Line Interfaces, Again > http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/command-line-again/ -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. Vlog Razor... Vlogging News http://vlograzor.com/ From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 08:48:29 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Aug 10 08:48:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging question In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780708100848u6340bc42r9971c940483dae61@mail.gmail.com> On 8/10/07, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > Hey Toby, > > Yes... you could do that... It would be correct to do so... > semantically speaking. --- yes, semantically, rev is the opposite or rel. The downside is that you are creating a tagspace, so anyone can link to it, just like anyone can link to flickr.com/photos/tags/programming/ but practically, there is no way for them to give reciprocal links to everyone. So the rev for a rel link is NOT required, but instead optional. > But on http://example.org/tag/programming/ should I use rev=tag to link to each tagged article? In this case SHOULD is probably more of a MAY. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Aug 11 04:24:52 2007 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (James O'Donnell) Date: Sat Aug 11 04:24:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging and Movable Type In-Reply-To: <21e770780708100848u6340bc42r9971c940483dae61@mail.gmail.com> References: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780708100848u6340bc42r9971c940483dae61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <252B072D-679D-41D4-B8A7-3E0918518AD6@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Hello, Apologies if this is not the correct forum to ask this question. We've set up a Movable Type blog at http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog and I'm experimenting with tagging blog entries like so: I notice that Operator and Tails both pick up the 'meteors' and 'perseids' tags on that page as 'mt-search.cgi'. Is there a simple way to fix this in the HTML, or is it a bug in the microformat parsing? Thanks Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From scott at randomchaos.com Sat Aug 11 09:05:31 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sat Aug 11 09:05:48 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging and Movable Type In-Reply-To: <252B072D-679D-41D4-B8A7-3E0918518AD6@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780708100848u6340bc42r9971c940483dae61@mail.gmail.com> <252B072D-679D-41D4-B8A7-3E0918518AD6@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <4BD7DD6C-7731-4B31-A7CF-E45B6663AAF9@randomchaos.com> On Aug 11, 2007, at 5:24 AM, James O'Donnell wrote: > Hello, > > Apologies if this is not the correct forum to ask this question. > We've set up a Movable Type blog at > http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog and I'm experimenting with tagging blog > entries like so: > > > I notice that Operator and Tails both pick up the 'meteors' and > 'perseids' tags on that page as 'mt-search.cgi'. Is there a simple > way to fix this in the HTML, or is it a bug in the microformat > parsing? Query strings are not currently considered part of a tag space URL, so parsers are properly assigning "mt-search.cgi" as the tag, as it's the last portion in your URL path. If running your own tag space is important, you can probably accomplish tag space URLs (e.g. http:// www.nmm.ac.uk/tag/meteors/) with Apache's mod_rewrite, as described here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq (See Q&A #4) Otherwise, you can use an existing tag space on an external site. Peace, Scott From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Aug 11 09:23:43 2007 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (James O'Donnell) Date: Sat Aug 11 09:23:48 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging and Movable Type In-Reply-To: <4BD7DD6C-7731-4B31-A7CF-E45B6663AAF9@randomchaos.com> References: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780708100848u6340bc42r9971c940483dae61@mail.gmail.com> <252B072D-679D-41D4-B8A7-3E0918518AD6@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <4BD7DD6C-7731-4B31-A7CF-E45B6663AAF9@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <7E165E98-A656-4004-AFE0-B6809F574B5E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 11 Aug 2007, at 17:05, Scott Reynen wrote: > Query strings are not currently considered part of a tag space URL, > so parsers are properly assigning "mt-search.cgi" as the tag, as > it's the last portion in your URL path. Oh, right. So the default Movable Type template isn't publishing the microformat properly. > If running your own tag space is important, you can probably > accomplish tag space URLs (e.g. http://www.nmm.ac.uk/tag/meteors/) > with Apache's mod_rewrite, as described here: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq (See Q&A #4) > The link needs to go to the MT search script, and pass the tag name and blog ID, since we run multiple blogs. But I think that can be done with mod-rewrite. Would "http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/tag/meteors/" cause any problems to a parser? That URL contains enough info to identify both the blog and the tag name. We need to differentiate between the same tag used on different blogs in the same installation of MT, you see. For example, 'see all posts tagged with meteors' on the Observatory blog vs. the same link on the museum library blog. > Otherwise, you can use an existing tag space on an external site. I don't think that's an option, unless another attribute is available to declare the tag space. href is already taken with the target of the link. Cheers Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From scott at randomchaos.com Sat Aug 11 09:43:03 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sat Aug 11 09:43:19 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging and Movable Type In-Reply-To: <7E165E98-A656-4004-AFE0-B6809F574B5E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780708100848u6340bc42r9971c940483dae61@mail.gmail.com> <252B072D-679D-41D4-B8A7-3E0918518AD6@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <4BD7DD6C-7731-4B31-A7CF-E45B6663AAF9@randomchaos.com> <7E165E98-A656-4004-AFE0-B6809F574B5E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <10766478-833D-48C1-A985-15B8F22E3C3B@randomchaos.com> On Aug 11, 2007, at 10:23 AM, James O'Donnell wrote: > The link needs to go to the MT search script, and pass the tag name > and blog ID, since we run multiple blogs. But I think that can be > done with mod-rewrite. > Would "http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/tag/meteors/" cause any problems to > a parser? That URL contains enough info to identify both the blog > and the tag name. Yeah, that would be fine. Peace, Scott From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Aug 11 11:10:37 2007 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (James O'Donnell) Date: Sat Aug 11 11:10:42 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging and Movable Type In-Reply-To: <10766478-833D-48C1-A985-15B8F22E3C3B@randomchaos.com> References: <84ce626f0708100827u57ee0517u3fb2ab0745644e1f@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780708100848u6340bc42r9971c940483dae61@mail.gmail.com> <252B072D-679D-41D4-B8A7-3E0918518AD6@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <4BD7DD6C-7731-4B31-A7CF-E45B6663AAF9@randomchaos.com> <7E165E98-A656-4004-AFE0-B6809F574B5E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <10766478-833D-48C1-A985-15B8F22E3C3B@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <15D5E5E7-682C-423C-B96C-9067A6068D81@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 11 Aug 2007, at 17:43, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Aug 11, 2007, at 10:23 AM, James O'Donnell wrote: > >> The link needs to go to the MT search script, and pass the tag >> name and blog ID, since we run multiple blogs. But I think that >> can be done with mod-rewrite. >> Would "http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/tag/meteors/" cause any problems >> to a parser? That URL contains enough info to identify both the >> blog and the tag name. > > Yeah, that would be fine. > Seems to be working now with Operator and Tails, although I haven't gone through and editted all of the MT templates yet: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/tag/perseids?IncludeBlogs=4 It turns out there's a tutorial on rewriting the Movable Type search link for tags: http://forums.sixapart.com/index.php?showtopic=58750 Thanks again Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From chris.messina at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 13:29:09 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sun Aug 12 13:29:11 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Figure Examples Message-ID: <1bc4603e0708121329g7aa7096ne00217822447c3@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I've begun collecting examples of figure markup in the wild: http://microformats.org/wiki/figure-examples I'm bringing up an old topic that actually stirred up some controversy between me and Tantek with regard to using presentational class names in HTML documents. I've since invented my own design pattern for marking up figures on my blog, but wanted to document other behaviors in the wild, even if they violate the hallowed separation of content and presentation. Specifically, there are many themes that I've discovered that use some variant of "float-right", "float-left", "alignright", "alignleft" and so on to mark up images in blog posts. While this is a useable convention for themers and designers, it is not semantic. Therefore, as I mentioned, I have developed my own practice that uses the order of class attribute values to define the alignment of figures. Thus, the classes that I use are: .figure, .figure-a, .figure-b, .figure-c, .figure-d This is infinitely extensible and, as Tantek has said, not "semantically negative" -- as in, it is better to be semantically neutral than to introduce presentational classnames. Here is the associated CSS: img.figure { max-width:460px; border:2px solid #f7f7f7; } img.figure-a, img.figure-c { margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto; display:block; } img.figure-b { float:right; border:0; margin:0 0 6px 6px; } img.figure-d { float:left; border:0; margin:0 6px 6px 0; } As you can see, I've associated -b and -d with right and left alignment respectively, going clockwise with -a, -b, -c, -d, just like attributes go top, right, bottom, and left. In practice, I mark up figures like this: NewsFire Software Updates iPhone Template This provides me with the presentational hooks that I need while also staying semantically neutral. These classes can apply to tables, containing DIVs and other elements. Please let me know what you think -- and if you have any suggestions. Chris -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Advocate-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [X] bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Mon Aug 13 01:46:14 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Mon Aug 13 02:15:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Figure Examples In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0708121329g7aa7096ne00217822447c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1bc4603e0708121329g7aa7096ne00217822447c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C01A56.9040609@xtra.co.nz> Chris Messina wrote: >Specifically, there are many themes that I've discovered that use some >variant of "float-right", "float-left", "alignright", "alignleft" and >so on to mark up images in blog posts. While this is a useable >convention for themers and designers, it is not semantic. > >Therefore, as I mentioned, I have developed my own practice that uses >the order of class attribute values to define the alignment of >figures. Thus, the classes that I use are: > >.figure, .figure-a, .figure-b, .figure-c, .figure-d > >This is infinitely extensible and, as Tantek has said, not >"semantically negative" -- as in, it is better to be semantically >neutral than to introduce presentational classnames. This technique is wide open to abuse, because it is infinitely extensible. I don't want to have to deal with .figure-q that someone else has done, and try to figure out how the variations differ, yet the absolutes of left and right must be avoided. It seems that that the .figure-b class has have nothing to do with the .figure class, even though their naming is very similar. Imagine coming across someone elses custom design. How do you figure out which particular class name should be used for a particular situation? I like to subscribe to the css naming principle of "Class names should describe their functionality, rather than their appearance." We can look for inspiration from other fields that deal with figures and images, like newspapers for example. - masthead, which appears once at the top of the page and often has a different appearance to the rest of the figures - banner, which goes across the whole page - cutout, where the background has been removed and doesn't require any bordering - inset, set inside other content, typically a paragraph - lead-in, which preceeds a paragraph - logo - promo, for promoting an item inside - sidebar - skybox - stand-alone, as separate content between paragraphs - teaser, giving just a taste of what's to come >Here is the associated CSS: > >img.figure { >max-width:460px; >border:2px solid #f7f7f7; >} This is the default appearance for figures. >img.figure-a, img.figure-c { >margin-left:auto; >margin-right:auto; >display:block; >} > The function of the figure-a and figure-c classes, as is being used here, is to let the image sit by itself, between other content. A classname of "banner" or "stand-alone" describes this particular function without implying how you should handle it. >img.figure-b { >float:right; >border:0; >margin:0 0 6px 6px; >} > The figure-b class appears to be one where the image is inset within other content, the classname "inset" would be perfect for this. >img.figure-d { >float:left; >border:0; >margin:0 6px 6px 0; >} > The figure-d class does the same inset job, but to the other direction of figure-b. The naming of this could be one of a couple of choices: "lead-in" for when you want the figure to always be at the start of the content, or if it's to purposely allow you to alternate the positioning of the inset image from the standard one, we can take a leaf from how alternate table rows are handles, and call it "inset alt" img { max-width:460px; border:2px solid #f7f7f7; } img.figure .stand-alone, img.figure .banner { margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto; display:block; } img.figure .inset { float:right; border:0; margin:0 0 6px 6px; } img.figure .inset .alt { float:left; border:0; margin:0 6px 6px 0; } Now the code becomes understandable and instantly clear. The class names define the separate functions that the figures are to convey, without being presentational in their nature. The class names are in line with the principle of semantic naming of css classes. "Class names should describe their functionality, rather than their appearance." What issues would get in the way of a more functional naming of classes? Compare before: NewsFire Software Updates iPhone Template And compare after: iPhone Template -- Paul Wilkins From ryan at technorati.com Mon Aug 13 13:34:32 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Aug 13 13:34:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Link to Technorati Contacts In-Reply-To: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D84107@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca> References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D84107@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca> Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2007, at 6:02 AM, Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote: > Hi: > > Brian Suda gives clear instructions on how to create a link to his X2V > application to create vCards from hCArd markup. However, on the X2V > page, he states that although the "engine" on his site is more recent > than Technorati Contacts, the Technorati servers are more robust so > I am > wondering if the same type of link may be created to the Technorati > Contacts page. Thanks for the feedback. I'll add some text to http://technorati.com/ contacts to explain this. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Mon Aug 13 14:14:27 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Aug 13 14:14:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] RubHub closing down? In-Reply-To: <21e770780708070203x5486eddvf6e6319511ce9ad8@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780708070203x5486eddvf6e6319511ce9ad8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 7, 2007, at 2:03 AM, Brian Suda wrote: > On 8/6/07, David Mead wrote: >> I just saw that RubHub is closing down. Does anyone know of any >> other >> sites out there that are doing, or plan to do, the same sort of >> thing? > > --- and/or if there is any plans to release the source code. I know > Technorati uses kitchen.technorati.com and is spidering microformats, > at the moment they are not displaying XFN (if they index it),... We do index XFN. I've done a bit of work on ways to display it, but haven't gotten them release-ready. -ryan From paul.kinlan at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 08:20:07 2007 From: paul.kinlan at gmail.com (Paul Kinlan) Date: Wed Aug 15 08:20:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] micro-summary Message-ID: <1f8270600708150820p6a5612a9v130340066ff22ed4@mail.gmail.com> Hi, A little while ago I emailed the group about the micro-summary format, and the consensus was that there is sufficient meta data description information available for me to use without having to re-implement the wheel. So far I have implemented the meta description parsing, Dublin core description parsing, hCard parsing and rel-tag parsing on my project and I am looking for "beta" testers to ping my site so that I can see the load and see if I can parse more hCards in the wild. Now to the crux of this email. I would be very grateful if anyone can ping the following url when they update their blog: http://www.topicala.com/ping/[Your url to the blog post] this will help me test my site - and obviously your information posted via Microformats will be indexed by another service. Alternatively, rather than update your ping server list you can place the following image (img src="http://www.topicala.com/imageRefer/[your root domain uri]/topicala.png - you can omit your root domain if you wish) on your site and I can track it from there. If your site uses the image your posts will appear on http://www.topicala.com/popular/ which displays the results of the uF parsing. I will be implementing hCard searching and better related tag posos in the near future. Implementation wise, I am using the Text::Microformat's perl module (http://search.cpan.org/~kgrennan/Text-Microformat-0.04/lib/Text/Microformat.pm) by Kevin Grennan to parse all the relevant information. I would greatly appreciate any feedback, discussion, suggestions,comments and concerns. (you can send the comments directly to me: paul.kinlan@gmail.com if you don't want to clog this discussion list up) The site styling is pretty poor at the moment and I need to POSH it up and ensure that it promotes the use of uF as well as consuming them. Kind Regards, Paul Kinlan From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Aug 16 16:42:26 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Aug 16 16:43:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' Message-ID: Here's a proposal, for a "title trigger", an alternative to the abbr-design pattern. Patrick Lauke did mention it originally, some time ago, but it seems to have been overlooked: Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. e.g. 16th August this year It strikes me as simple, easy to learn, easy to author and easy for parsers to adapt to. It has the added advantages of working on *any* element; and being usable on CMSs (e.g. MediaWiki) which do not allow use of 'abbr'. There's more, at: -- Andy Mabbett From martin at weborganics.co.uk Fri Aug 17 04:06:15 2007 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Aug 17 04:05:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1187348775.4119.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-08-17 at 00:42 +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Here's a proposal, for a "title trigger", an alternative to the > abbr-design pattern. Patrick Lauke did mention it originally, some time > ago, but it seems to have been overlooked: > > Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or > something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any > element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. > > e.g. > class="dtstart ufusetitle" > title="2007-08-16" > > > > 16th August this year > > > > It strikes me as simple, easy to learn, easy to author and easy for > parsers to adapt to. This could still cause issues with screen readers and the like wouldn't it?[1] I am no expert but I presume the title value will still be parsed ? I think this would be better 16th August this year. ... DFN: Indicates that this is the defining instance of the enclosed term.[2][3] [1] http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-DFN [3] http://www-fs.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~hunszing/QuickRef.html POSH reference thanks Martin > > It has the added advantages of working on *any* element; and being > usable on CMSs (e.g. MediaWiki) which do not allow use of 'abbr'. > > There's more, at: > > > From jeremy at adactio.com Fri Aug 17 04:22:12 2007 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Fri Aug 17 04:22:16 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65C11B8E-3732-4B64-AE1C-5B385E1D1351@adactio.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or > something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any > element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. But now the class attribute contains an instruction rather than a description of the enclosed contents. This feels like an abuse of the class attribute to me. > It strikes me as simple, easy to learn, easy to author and easy for > parsers to adapt to. I'm not so sure it is that simple. It also feels like it's aimed at making life easier for parsers at the expense of publishers (although that is also kind of true of the abbr design pattern too). Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From jeremy at adactio.com Fri Aug 17 04:44:27 2007 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Fri Aug 17 04:44:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] dfn design pattern (proposal) Message-ID: This is may be somewhat premature as the results of the assistive technology tests aren't back yet: http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results But if we do need to look at alternatives to the abbr design pattern, one of the ideas that came up in discussion was to use the dfn element. I've put together a page on the wiki outlining the thinking behind this proposal as well as highlighting some of the potential downsides: http://microformats.org/wiki/dfn-design-pattern On the plus side, I think it's better not to widen the title design pattern to apply to any element (which is essentially what the span proposal is saying) so this would only be a slight expansion. On the down side, the semantics of "defining instance" aren't always going to be applicable for datetime, geo, etc. But I think it could well cover 80% of use cases. What's needed: * Arguments for or against the use of dfn as a container for the title design pattern: is this semantic abuse or is it simply stretching semantics (like the abbr design pattern). * Document usage of the dfn element in the wild: I believe it is often used in conjunction with the title attribute. * Test results from screen readers to find out if dfn is treated as a special case (like abbr and acronym) or whether it is "safe" to use. * Feedback from the people building parsers (Mike Kaply, Brian Suda, etc.) on whether this would be tricky or easy to implement. I'm fairly certain that this proposed design pattern would *not* cover 100% of use cases but it might cover enough situations to be viable as *an alternative* to the abbr design pattern. Note that I am not suggesting that the abbr deisgn pattern should be deprecated. I believe it has its place but I think it would be good to provide an alternative to address the accessibility question. For instance, even if the dfn design pattern is adopted, I will still use the abbr element for cases like this: August 19th That's because I believe exposing the string "2007-08-19" either to sighted or blind users is an acceptable, readable, understandable way of formating a date. But for a string like "2007-08-19T12:39:00" I would like to have an alternative that wouldn't directly expose that format to the user. That's my own call, of course. I suspect that others, offered the choice of an alternative to abbr, will always go for the alternative. And others will choose to always stick with abbr. I think that all of those positions should be accommodated. Look forward to getting your feedback, Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Aug 17 05:41:31 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Aug 17 06:01:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' References: Message-ID: Andy Mabbett wrote: > Here's a proposal, for a "title trigger", an alternative to the > abbr-design pattern. This is a reasonably good solution. For what it's worth, I'm waiting until this very long-standing issue has been resolved before implementing hCalendar and hAtom for my CMS software. (It already supports XMDP, XFN, rel-tag, rel-license and hCard.) Really, microformats.org needs to "bless" one of the many replacements for the abbr-design-pattern. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's waiting for a clear direction before proceeding. PS: I'm still looking for feedback on my metadata profile . Does it comply with the spirit of the XMDP spec (I know it slightly deviates from the letter)? How about GRDDL? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 57 days, 16:12.] Elvis http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/16/elvis/ From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Aug 17 06:41:32 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Aug 17 06:41:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2007, at 6:41 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Really, microformats.org needs to "bless" one of the many > replacements for the abbr-design-pattern. I'm sure I'm not the > only one who's waiting for a clear direction before proceeding. In the microformats process, solutions as "blessed" by real-world factors. In this case, there's testing going on, documented here: http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results If you'd like to help do some testing in real screen readers, that would hasten this process. But choosing a "solution" without knowing how well it would actually solve the problem, nor whether it would introduce new problems, is a bad idea. Peace, Scott From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Aug 17 08:12:09 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Aug 17 08:12:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: <65C11B8E-3732-4B64-AE1C-5B385E1D1351@adactio.com> References: <65C11B8E-3732-4B64-AE1C-5B385E1D1351@adactio.com> Message-ID: <33256.80.86.36.97.1187363529.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Fri, August 17, 2007 12:22, Jeremy Keith wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or >> something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any >> element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. > > But now the class attribute contains an instruction rather than a > description of the enclosed contents. This feels like an abuse of the class > attribute to me. Read the class name as "has microformat-usable title". >> It strikes me as simple, easy to learn, easy to author and easy for >> parsers to adapt to. > > I'm not so sure it is that simple. Why not? > It also feels like it's aimed at > making life easier for parsers at the expense of publishers Not in the least. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Aug 17 08:22:16 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Aug 17 08:22:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: <1187348775.4119.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1187348775.4119.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47486.80.86.36.97.1187364136.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Fri, August 17, 2007 12:06, Martin McEvoy wrote: > On Fri, 2007-08-17 at 00:42 +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> Here's a proposal, for a "title trigger", an alternative to the >> abbr-design pattern. Patrick Lauke did mention it originally, some time >> ago, but it seems to have been overlooked: >> >> Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or >> something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any >> element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. > This could still cause issues with screen readers and the like wouldn't > it?[1] I am no expert but I presume the title value will still be parsed ? I don't believe that's the case, but I have invited comments and requested testing. > I think this would be better > > 16th August this year. > I don't see what that would add, or how it would be easier for publishers. I'm not even sure that it's a valid use of DFN (but stand to be corrected). -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Aug 17 08:35:14 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Aug 17 08:35:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 watershed (was: Re: Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger') In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59918.80.86.36.97.1187364914.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Fri, August 17, 2007 14:41, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Aug 17, 2007, at 6:41 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > > >> Really, microformats.org needs to "bless" one of the many >> replacements for the abbr-design-pattern. I'm sure I'm not the only one >> who's waiting for a clear direction before proceeding. > > In the microformats process, solutions as "blessed" by real-world > factors. In this case, there's testing going on, documented here: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results > > > If you'd like to help do some testing in real screen readers, that > would hasten this process. But choosing a "solution" without knowing how > well it would actually solve the problem, nor whether it would introduce > new problems, is a bad idea. That's true enough; but the availability of microformat in Firefox 3 (towards the end of 2007?) will be a notable watershed, and raise the level of awareness, and this use, in the wider community. It would be good to have a resolution before then, if possible within the above constraints, in order that people do not least bad ("abbr-abuse") practise which we must then expend energy attempting to "unteach". Indeed, in an ideal world, I would have a moratorium on new proposals, and tidy up several that are either actively being developed, or on a back-burner, before then; including hAudio, species, currency and measure; but I realise that that may not be possible with a volunteer community, and should not be done at the expense of rushing through bad decisions. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Aug 17 08:52:24 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Aug 17 08:52:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 watershed (was: Re: Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger') In-Reply-To: <59918.80.86.36.97.1187364914.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <59918.80.86.36.97.1187364914.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <25777.80.86.36.97.1187365944.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Fri, August 17, 2007 16:35, Andy Mabbett wrote: > That's true enough; but the availability of microformat "microformats" > in Firefox 3 > (towards the end of 2007?) will be a notable watershed > It would be good to have a resolution before then, if possible within the > above constraints, in order that people do not least "learn" > bad ("abbr-abuse") > practise which we must then expend energy attempting to "unteach". [...] Apologies. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From davidjohnmead at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 09:58:01 2007 From: davidjohnmead at gmail.com (David Mead) Date: Fri Aug 17 09:58:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] RubHub closing down? In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780708070203x5486eddvf6e6319511ce9ad8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ryan, That's good news. Just as I started adding XFN to my blogs the one place I could test it out shut down :-) I'll keep checking the kitchen. Dave On 8/13/07, Ryan King wrote: > On Aug 7, 2007, at 2:03 AM, Brian Suda wrote: > > > On 8/6/07, David Mead wrote: > >> I just saw that RubHub is closing down. Does anyone know of any > >> other > >> sites out there that are doing, or plan to do, the same sort of > >> thing? > > > > --- and/or if there is any plans to release the source code. I know > > Technorati uses kitchen.technorati.com and is spidering microformats, > > at the moment they are not displaying XFN (if they index it),... > > We do index XFN. I've done a bit of work on ways to display it, but > haven't gotten them release-ready. > > -ryan > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Mead ------------------------------------------------ www.dmwebsites.com www.viewfromw6th.com www.refreshcleveland.org From ryan at technorati.com Fri Aug 17 10:55:41 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Fri Aug 17 10:55:49 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2007, at 5:41 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> Here's a proposal, for a "title trigger", an alternative to the >> abbr-design pattern. > > This is a reasonably good solution. For what it's worth, I'm > waiting until this very long-standing issue has been resolved > before implementing hCalendar and hAtom for my CMS software. > (It already supports XMDP, XFN, rel-tag, rel-license and hCard.) > > Really, microformats.org needs to "bless" one of the many > replacements for the abbr-design-pattern. I'm sure I'm not the > only one who's waiting for a clear direction before proceeding. > > PS: I'm still looking for feedback on my metadata profile > . Does it comply > with the spirit of the XMDP spec (I know it slightly deviates from > the letter)? How about GRDDL? Though this is likely the best place to ask abou XMDP, there aren't many here with significant experience authoring XMDP documents. Questions about GRDDL would probably best be directed towards the GRDDL working group. -ryan From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Aug 17 10:05:15 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Aug 17 11:01:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' References: <65C11B8E-3732-4B64-AE1C-5B385E1D1351@adactio.com> Message-ID: Jeremy Keith wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or >> something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any >> element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. > > But now the class attribute contains an instruction rather than a > description of the enclosed contents. This feels like an abuse of the > class attribute to me. The HTML 4 spec (which XHTML 1.x specs use as a normative reference) defines a valid use of the class attribute as being: * For general purpose processing by user agents which I'd say covers this usage. Whatsmore, I'd disagree that it's an instruction any more than the href attribute for . It's a pointer to a particular location where some data is kept: not an instruction to do something in particular with that data. Personally, I'd also be in favour of: 16 Aug Colon and dashes are allowed values for class names in HTML. Not 100% sure about the plus sign which is needed for timezones, but I think that's allowed in class names too. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 57 days, 20:32.] Elvis http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/16/elvis/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Aug 17 11:26:38 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Aug 17 11:28:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 watershed (was: Re: Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger') In-Reply-To: <59918.80.86.36.97.1187364914.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <59918.80.86.36.97.1187364914.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <$QfltDGehexGFwsX@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <59918.80.86.36.97.1187364914.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>, Andy Mabbett writes >in an ideal world, I would have a moratorium on new proposals, and tidy >up several that are either actively being developed, or on a >back-burner, before then; including hAudio, species, currency and >measure; and "citation". -- Andy Mabbett From john at westciv.com Fri Aug 17 16:15:28 2007 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Fri Aug 17 16:19:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: <65C11B8E-3732-4B64-AE1C-5B385E1D1351@adactio.com> References: <65C11B8E-3732-4B64-AE1C-5B385E1D1351@adactio.com> Message-ID: Jeremy, > Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or >> something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any >> element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. > > But now the class attribute contains an instruction rather than a > description of the enclosed contents. This feels like an abuse of > the class attribute to me. I see assertions about the correct use of the class attribute stated quite a bit, as well as criticisms of particular uses as being abuses, anti patterns and so on. I don't want to weigh into any specific debates, but do want to draw people's attention to the specification itself, from which in the first instance at least, justification for any such arguments needs to be drawn. HTML401 defines the class attribute thus "The class attribute, on the other hand, assigns one or more class names to an element; the element may be said to belong to these classes. A class name may be shared by several element instances. The class attribute has several roles in HTML: As a style sheet selector (when an author wishes to assign style information to a set of elements). For general purpose processing by user agents." [1] So, in effect, all the uses we make of the class attribute outside of using it for CSS selectors fall into the heading of "general purpose processing". In that, there's no mention of using class for semantics (which is a use pattern developed over time and sanctioned by convention), of restrictions for data over description, and indeed, Andy's suggestion of "ufusetitle" is arguably more strictly speaking for "general purpose processing" than applying a class value for semantic purposes (though the name 'class' does imply classification, taxonomies, and semantics more generally). Microformats have made use of clever interpretations of the HTML specification, and discovering appropriate uses of little used elements and attributes, or through intelligent interpretations of their definitions. Perhaps we are overlooking powerful and useful features of HTML, such as using class (and id) for 'general purpose processing'? j [1]http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.2 From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Aug 18 03:42:11 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Aug 18 03:42:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4xo0VKLD0sxGFwvC@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Andy Mabbett writes >Here's a proposal, for a "title trigger", an alternative to the abbr- >design pattern. Patrick Lauke did mention it originally, some time ago, >but it seems to have been overlooked: > >Use a class name; say "ufusetitle" (for "microformat, use title") or >something equally unlikely to otherwise occur in the wild, on any >element, to trigger the use of the title attribute. As an aside; in the case of, say: MBE there should probably also be, say, a class="ufnousetitle", so that the value of the honorific prefix is "MBE": MBE obviating the need for a separate wrapper to achieve that result. -- Andy Mabbett * Say "NO!" to compulsory UK ID Cards: * Free Our Data: * Are you using Microformats, yet: ? From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Aug 18 05:13:24 2007 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (James O'Donnell) Date: Sat Aug 18 05:13:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Simple solution to abbr-D-P accessibility concerns: 'Title Trigger' In-Reply-To: <4xo0VKLD0sxGFwvC@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <4xo0VKLD0sxGFwvC@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <8BB3B574-28F3-4BCA-8729-173F296A2BEB@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 18 Aug 2007, at 11:42, Andy Mabbett wrote: > As an aside; in the case of, say: > > class="honorifc-prefix > title="Member of the Order of the British Empire"> > MBE > > > there should probably also be, say, a class="ufnousetitle", so that > the > value of the honorific prefix is "MBE": > > class="honorifc-prefix ufnousetitle" > title="Member of the Order of the British Empire" >> > MBE > > > obviating the need for a separate wrapper to achieve that result. This seems somewhat clumsy to me, since a conforming HTML parser should read Ph.D as something along the lines of 'Ph.D is an honorific suffix, which is an abbrevation of Doctor of Philosophy'. So, it seems to me, a more elegant solution would be to require microformats parsers to be conforming parsers, in terms of the HTML spec. Adding additional classes to account for non-conforming parsers just feels icky to me. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From mdagn at spraci.com Sun Aug 19 18:42:50 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Sun Aug 19 18:43:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] dfn design pattern (proposal) Message-ID: <200708200143.l7K1hGj60791@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> > http://microformats.org/wiki/dfn-design-pattern > * Feedback from the people building parsers (Mike Kaply, Brian Suda, > etc.) on whether this would be tricky or easy to implement. quite easy I think... my own scripts that parse hcalendar don't really care what tag is used for dtstart or dtend - they look for those class names (and the title attribute) From jcraig at apple.com Sun Aug 19 19:09:40 2007 From: jcraig at apple.com (James Craig) Date: Sun Aug 19 19:09:43 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] dfn design pattern (proposal) In-Reply-To: <200708200143.l7K1hGj60791@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200708200143.l7K1hGj60791@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: Michael MD wrote: >> http://microformats.org/wiki/dfn-design-pattern > >> * Feedback from the people building parsers (Mike Kaply, Brian Suda, >> etc.) on whether this would be tricky or easy to implement. > > quite easy I think... > my own scripts that parse hcalendar don't really care what tag is used > for dtstart or dtend - they look for those class names (and the title > attribute) Let's don't jump the gun on implemention. The dfn-design-pattern has yet to prove any benefit over the abbr-design-pattern. For now, it's just one of several good ideas to be tested in this list. http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results James From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 02:02:47 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Mon Aug 20 02:02:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] dfn design pattern (proposal) In-Reply-To: <200708200143.l7K1hGj60791@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200708200143.l7K1hGj60791@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: <21e770780708200202o6b3f4b6dl3475f21874ba4b60@mail.gmail.com> On 8/20/07, Michael MD wrote: > quite easy I think... > my own scripts that parse hcalendar don't really care what tag is used > for dtstart or dtend - they look for those class names (and the title > attribute) --- just a quick FYI, this would be an incorrect implementation. The appearance or the absence of the TITLE attribute does not control the parsing, it is the semantics of the property and the element. ... The value of URL is NOT controlled by the TITLE, but instead the class URL and the 'A' element. If you have further parsing questions, we should take this up on the dev list. thanks, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From mdagn at spraci.com Mon Aug 20 18:24:25 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Mon Aug 20 18:24:37 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] dfn design pattern (proposal) In-Reply-To: <21e770780708200202o6b3f4b6dl3475f21874ba4b60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200708210124.l7L1OXj35748@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> On 8/20/07, Michael MD wrote: > quite easy I think... > my own scripts that parse hcalendar don't really care what tag is used > for dtstart or dtend - they look for those class names (and the title > attribute) >--- just a quick FYI, this would be an incorrect implementation. The >appearance or the absence of the TITLE attribute does not control the >parsing, it is the semantics of the property and the element. I guess I wasn't very clear. I was just commenting that the proposed dfn idea would be easy to implement at the parsing end and that some parsers may already handle it with little or no modification. I was talking specifically about things like dtstart and dtend in hcalendar. My scripts do not require the title attribute to be present, but if it is there it will look at its contents for the value. >... > >The value of URL is NOT controlled by the TITLE, but instead the class URL >and the 'A' element. for url it does look in href rather than title for the value. From jcraig at apple.com Mon Aug 20 18:57:21 2007 From: jcraig at apple.com (James Craig) Date: Mon Aug 20 18:57:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] dfn design pattern (proposal) In-Reply-To: <200708210124.l7L1OXj35748@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200708210124.l7L1OXj35748@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: <7744CCF3-FEB1-411F-B7F0-A6E7FAE0419F@apple.com> Michael MD wrote: > >> --- just a quick FYI, this would be an incorrect implementation. The >> appearance or the absence of the TITLE attribute does not control the >> parsing, it is the semantics of the property and the element. > > I guess I wasn't very clear. No, you were clear. > I was talking specifically about things like dtstart and dtend in > hcalendar. > > My scripts do not require the title attribute to be present, but if > it is > there it will look at its contents for the value. That is an incorrect implementation according to the current spec. I hope that the current spec will be changed at some point (I voice my disapproval of the abbr-design-pattern frequently), but according to the current spec, this behavior should ONLY be present on the abbr element. James From hober0 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 02:28:25 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Tue Aug 21 02:28:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: dfn design pattern (proposal) References: Message-ID: <868x85b5ja.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> > * Arguments for or against the use of dfn as a container for the title > design pattern: is this semantic abuse or is it simply stretching > semantics (like the abbr design pattern). In the interest of forward-compatibility, I think using dfn/@title is a bad idea. The HTML 5 draft goes into much more detail about then any previous HTML version, specifying both how to find the 's term, and how to find the relevant for some use of the term elsewhere in the document. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dfn The incompatibility comes in here: > Defining term: If the dfn element has a title attribute, then the > exact value of that attribute is the term being defined. Otherwise, if > it contains exactly one element child node and no child text nodes, > and that child element is an abbr element with a title attribute, then > the exact value of that attribute is the term being defined. > Otherwise, it is the exact textContent of the dfn element that gives > the term being defined. > > If the title attribute of the dfn element is present, then it must > only contain the term being defined. So using dfn/@title to contain something other than the term being defined is probably not a good idea. This is similar to how we're trying to avoid the use of @rev now, since HTML 5's dropped it. -- Ted From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 02:47:06 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Aug 21 02:47:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: dfn design pattern (proposal) In-Reply-To: <868x85b5ja.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> References: <868x85b5ja.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> Message-ID: <21e770780708210247g7bd3a101jabb2e8b6cf9d05ba@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/07, Edward O'Connor wrote: > > * Arguments for or against the use of dfn as a container for the title > > design pattern: is this semantic abuse or is it simply stretching > > semantics (like the abbr design pattern). > > In the interest of forward-compatibility, I think using dfn/@title is a > bad idea. > > The HTML 5 draft goes into much more detail about then any > previous HTML version, specifying both how to find the 's term, and > how to find the relevant for some use of the term elsewhere in the > document. --- i wouldn't worry too much about HTML5. Firstly, it is years away from completion, and secondly, it also gives us the