From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Wed Aug 1 01:00:16 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Wed Aug 1 01:00:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Specifying a contact person for an org in hCard In-Reply-To: <1L0XbBLZ72rGFw92@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com> <1L0XbBLZ72rGFw92@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On 7/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Are there any examples of publishers or parsers using "agent" in hCard? I don't think so, there was some discussion of it a while back on the mailing list but you'd have to search the archives. -Ciaran McNulty From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 02:29:28 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Aug 1 02:29:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: birthday versus birthdate In-Reply-To: References: <6eg3o4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e770780708010229q1a949c0dw3618733eb61e3a5b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, Ray Daly wrote: > Toby, I complete agree with your view. I'm not sure which of the three > options that I will take and certainly not a too early year. Thanks > for the confirmation. Because hCard follows from vCard, when trying to work out exactly what properties mean, it is best to go to the source and see if there is more information there. FROM RFC 2426 Type name: BDAY Type purpose: To specify the birth date of the object the vCard represents. It is ambiguous to what "birth date of the object" really means. I think at the end of the day, you have to ask what is this being used for? probably so you can add it to your address book so you can call a friend and say "happy birthday", whether that is the EXACT anniversary of the day they were born, or if that is the day they want to celebrate, it doesn't much matter. You could also argue that Organizations (that's the OBJECT they are talking about) could have a birth date as well. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 03:14:48 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Aug 1 03:14:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabledonthe wiki In-Reply-To: <002501c7d3ff$8887c970$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <002501c7d3ff$8887c970$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Finally, the lack of transparency is the most frustrating aspect of this decision. Why aren't these issues laid out on the wiki and discussed on a governance list? This sort of elusive autocratic leadership undermines my trust in the administrators. And /that/ is part of why many people I have personally spoken to have chosen to not contribute and moved on to other work. --- please be aware that discussion of Legal issues SHOULD NOT be send to this list, but instead taken up DIRECTLY with Rohit and commercenet. This list is best server when we do NOT discuss legal issues which very few, if any, of this audience are qualified to weigh in on. Please read: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-issues#Legal_Entity_Issues "Please refer any legal questions or concerns directly to CommerceNet before raising them as a matter of public record, as discussed on the mailing list [1] (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007086.html)." I think we should close this thread and take any further discussions up directly with Rohit as he has recommended. That is the best course of action for everyone. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From faaborg at mozilla.com Wed Aug 1 11:30:39 2007 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:30:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is great, I'm really glad to see Google using microformats. Quick question about handing microformatted content back to Google Maps (using Operator, Firefox 3, etc): does your API support currently sending multiple items, and adding them to a particular map listed in My Maps? For instance, this would enable the user to select multiple hCards on a Web site and send them all to one of their maps. Or, to give a more advanced use case: a Web browser could automatically send all encountered hCards, adrs and geos to a map called "Web History." The user could then turn this map on to view all of the pieces of information they recently encountered online geographically. This could be useful when planning a vacation, searching for real estate across multiple Web sites, etc. -Alex On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: > http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2007/06/microformats-in-google- > maps.html > > Microformats in Google Maps > Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 4:28:00 PM > Posted by Gregor J. Rothfuss, Maps Team and Kevin Marks, Apps Team > > If you have spent any time in certain corners of the web, you will > have heard of Microformats: Clever uses of HTML that add > machine-readability to everyday web pages while preserving > human-readability. Microformats allow tools to make more sense of your > web pages, while not changing the visual appearance for visitors to > your site one whit. > > Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard > microformat to Google Maps results. Why should you care about some > invisible changes to our HTML? By marking up our results with the > hCard microformat, your browser can easily recognize the address and > contact information in the page, and help you transfer it to an > addressbook or phone more easily. Firefox users can install the > Operator or Tails extension; IE or Safari users can use one of these > bookmarklets. [...] > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From faaborg at mozilla.com Wed Aug 1 11:40:33 2007 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:40:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3 Message-ID: Mike Beltzner, Mike Kaply and I are going to try to finalize the user interface for interacting with microformatted content in Firefox 3 this week, possibly later today. If anyone has any last minute suggestions or thoughts, please post them soon. I'll also update this thread with mockups of what we've decided on so we can get feedback on the proposed interface. -Alex From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 12:02:32 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:03:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >>Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have now added >>additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in particular is >>consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all other public >>domain contributors. > >Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit. I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject "Warning of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above exchange of 26 July, in: and telling me that: Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone on the mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban. Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular (which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish, nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered and apt description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand by it. Ironically, Ms Berriman also implies that I'm a - quote - "jerk". The OED tells me that that insult refers to "Someone of little or no account; a fool, a stupid person". Perhaps she ought to put her own house in order. Also of interest is the fact that Ms Berriman signs her post "on behalf of the microformats administration". I can find no reference to such an organisation on the wiki or mailing list. Maybe I've missed something? Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance and rights issues which I and others have raised. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 12:26:17 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:27:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Gags (was: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on the wiki) In-Reply-To: <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <002501c7d3ff$8887c970$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780708010314s1829c803v943a7784e27529e5@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 8/1/07, Joe Andrieu wrote: >>Finally, the lack of transparency is the most frustrating aspect of this decision. >>Why aren't these issues laid out on the wiki and discussed on a governance list? >>This sort of elusive autocratic leadership undermines my trust in the administrators. >--- please be aware that discussion of Legal issues SHOULD NOT be send >to this list, but instead taken up DIRECTLY with Rohit and commercenet. Perhaps you ought to point that out to Rohit, and to Tantek Celik, both of whom have discussed legal issues here in the last week or so. Or does the rule not apply to them? Perhaps we could have a list of who is allowed to discuss what? I also understood, per: that "CommerceNet is graciously hosting the servers, but claims no control over microformat standards". Indeed, CommerceNet are not even mentioned on: and we're told on that page that Rohit's (only?) role is "an ex officio observer of microformats-admin, as the contact point for the servers and the domain name". I can understand your apparent confusion about who is, and is not, responsible for what - it's certainly not made very clear anywhere I've seen. Perhaps the community would prefer such discussion to take place somewhere less controlled, and more public? >This list is best server when we do NOT discuss legal issues The main "governance" page: says: governance related threads on microformats-discuss are low and manageable and can therefore be stated there What are legal issues, if not part of governance? >which very few, if any, of this audience are qualified to weigh in on. What qualifications are required? And checked everyone's CVs? In any case, I think you will find that I am very well - uniquely, even - qualified to say what permission I give to others with regard to use of my IP, just as Joe is about his and his company's. >Please read: >http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-issues#Legal_Entity_Issues > >"Please refer any legal questions or concerns directly to CommerceNet >before raising them as a matter of public record, as discussed on the >mailing list [1] (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats- >discuss/2006-November/007086.html)." It also says: Note that CommerceNet, LLC does not exercise any editorial control over the content of the site, mailing list, specifications, or the process which seems somewhat contradictory. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 12:28:24 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:29:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >but "Rubbish, nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means >"rubbish, nonsense" should read: but "bullshit" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, nonsense" for which I apologise. -- Andy Mabbett From rothfuss at google.com Wed Aug 1 15:29:36 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Wed Aug 1 15:29:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> > Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This > search: > > > > has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up) > has: > > NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps > N:;; > ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;; > > (viewed in Operator) > > -- > Andy Mabbett i will look into it. operator parsing behavior has changed in recent releases, and i had to change the markup a couple times to make it work. any suggestions what ought to be fixed? From rothfuss at google.com Wed Aug 1 15:36:58 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Wed Aug 1 15:37:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <8068b42c0708011536t58f81706w70d0162a260da3fd@mail.gmail.com> Alex Faaborg wrote: > This is great, I'm really glad to see Google using microformats. suggestions are always welcome. i do believe kevin is working on some more in other areas :) > Quick question about handing microformatted content back to Google > Maps (using Operator, Firefox 3, etc): does your API support > currently sending multiple items, and adding them to a particular map > listed in My Maps? > > For instance, this would enable the user to select multiple hCards on > a Web site and send them all to one of their maps. Or, to give a > more advanced use case: a Web browser could automatically send all > encountered hCards, adrs and geos to a map called "Web History." The > user could then turn this map on to view all of the pieces of > information they recently encountered online geographically. This > could be useful when planning a vacation, searching for real estate > across multiple Web sites, etc. > > -Alex that's a cool idea. let me ask around to see what people think would be the best way to do this. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Aug 1 16:05:25 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Aug 1 16:07:06 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0po3Tyc1GRsGFwXv@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com>, Gregor J. Rothfuss writes >> Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This >> search: >> >> >> >> has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up) >> has: >> >> NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps >> N:;; >> ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: >> FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: >> ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;; >i will look into it. Thank you. >operator parsing behavior has changed in recent releases, and i had to >change the markup a couple times to make it work. I'm not sure that Operator has anything to do with it. >any suggestions what ought to be fixed? You could start by producing valid (X)HTML, and put your styles in an external style sheet - that at least would make it easier to debug! I don't know Javascript, so can't comment on any errors in that. -- Andy Mabbett From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Wed Aug 1 17:50:14 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Wed Aug 1 17:52:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> Hi Gregor, > any suggestions what ought to be fixed? When I "view selection source" I get the following: Great Barr School
922 Aldridge Rd
Great Barr, Birmingham B44
So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the span's or div's below:
922 Aldridge Rd
Great Barr, Birmingham B44 Rob Manson From rothfuss at google.com Wed Aug 1 18:11:48 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Wed Aug 1 18:11:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> Message-ID: <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> what query was that for? when i search for "pizza", i get
Lombardi's Pizza - more info ?
32 Spring St, New York, NY
(212) 941-7994 - Rated 4.0 out of 5.0
On 8/1/07, Rob Manson wrote: > Hi Gregor, > > > any suggestions what ought to be fixed? > > > When I "view selection source" I get the following: > > style="" class="adr">Great Barr School
922 Aldridge Rd
Great Barr, > Birmingham B44
> > > So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified > at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. > > To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the > span's or div's below: > >
922 Aldridge Rd
> Great Barr, > Birmingham > B44 > > > > > Rob Manson > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From mdagn at spraci.com Wed Aug 1 18:42:09 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Wed Aug 1 18:41:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> Message-ID: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> > > So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified > at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. > > To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there. There are a lot of cases where people may have freeform text addresses and wish to mark them up somehow... - especially where there is a lot of user-entered or legacy data (Google would have plenty of both!) There are no reliable automated means of splitting such freeform text into the seperate elements required by hcard and to expect everyone to manually re-enter everything is definately asking too much! Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/vcard but can still be very useful to humans! - it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! Perhaps we do need some way to mark up such addresses so that there could be export tools that give the user options to split them? From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Wed Aug 1 19:04:55 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Wed Aug 1 19:07:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186020295.17568.690.camel@robslap> Hi Gregor, I just followed the tinyurl link that Andy Mabbett posted to the list which lead to a Google Maps search: http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl Then did a "view selection source" on the address in the left hand panel. Hope that helps... Rob Manson From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Wed Aug 1 23:43:12 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Wed Aug 1 23:45:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <1186036992.17568.717.camel@robslap> Hi Michael, I think that's absolutely right for general address details on web pages or in web based systems. I know a lot of the Telco and DSL provisioning systems I've worked on even have this problem. But I don't believe that this is the case for the address/geocode database that Google use... BTW: I think my last email got bounced so I'll paste it in here to be safe... Hi Gregor, I just followed the tinyurl link that Andy Mabbett posted to the list which lead to a Google Maps search: http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl Then did a "view selection source" on the address in the left hand panel. Hope that helps... Rob Manson On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:42 +1000, Michael MD wrote: > > > > So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified > > at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. > > > > To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the > > > I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there. > > There are a lot of cases where people may have freeform text addresses and > wish to mark them up somehow... - especially where there is a lot of > user-entered or legacy data (Google would have plenty of both!) > > There are no reliable automated means of splitting such freeform text into > the seperate elements required by hcard and to expect everyone to manually > re-enter everything is definately asking too much! > > Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/vcard but > can still be very useful to humans! > - it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what anyone > says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! > > Perhaps we do need some way to mark up such addresses so that there could be > export tools that give the user options to split them? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Aug 2 01:14:50 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Aug 2 01:16:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: In message <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN>, Michael MD writes >> So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified >> at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's. >> >> To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the > > >I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there. > >There are a lot of cases where people may have freeform text addresses >and wish to mark them up somehow... - especially where there is a lot >of user-entered or legacy data (Google would have plenty of both!) > >There are no reliable automated means of splitting such freeform text >into the seperate elements required by hcard and to expect everyone to >manually re-enter everything is definately asking too much! > >Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/vcard >but can still be very useful to humans! >- it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what >anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! I addressed this in: but people (Brian Suda, chiefly) insisted that my suggestion should not be followed, and that such addresses should instead be wrapped with class="label" - which is supposedly for: "formatted text corresponding to delivery address" Note the use of "formatted". More recently, Tantek added: which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, but outside the USA) -- Andy Mabbett From tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk Thu Aug 2 01:31:53 2007 From: tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk (Farndon, Tony) Date: Thu Aug 2 01:31:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF688@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> Hi Alex Have you tried my Minimap Firefox Addon?? It goes some way to what you were suggesting, in that it stores addresses/placemarks locally in your firefox profile, along with the url from where that address/location was from so that you can geographically browse. All placemarks are displayed in a sidebar map (optionally a fullscreen 'Map Tab' displays all the info) and from this sidebar you can open up the placemarks corresponding url in a new tab. Although microformats is not in the extension per se, there is an operator script that sends uf addresses or geo to the placemark list (why reinvent the wheel having two extensions parse the same page every time!). For websites not yet uf adr enabled, you just drag and drop the address text onto the sidebar to add. The extension also supports kml links including google MyMaps. http://firefox.spatialviews.com Shameless plug over, Tony -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Alex Faaborg Sent: 01 August 2007 19:31 To: Microformats Discuss; Kevin Marks Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps This is great, I'm really glad to see Google using microformats. Quick question about handing microformatted content back to Google Maps (using Operator, Firefox 3, etc): does your API support currently sending multiple items, and adding them to a particular map listed in My Maps? For instance, this would enable the user to select multiple hCards on a Web site and send them all to one of their maps. Or, to give a more advanced use case: a Web browser could automatically send all encountered hCards, adrs and geos to a map called "Web History." The user could then turn this map on to view all of the pieces of information they recently encountered online geographically. This could be useful when planning a vacation, searching for real estate across multiple Web sites, etc. -Alex On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Kevin Marks wrote: > http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2007/06/microformats-in-google- > maps.html > > Microformats in Google Maps > Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 4:28:00 PM > Posted by Gregor J. Rothfuss, Maps Team and Kevin Marks, Apps Team > > If you have spent any time in certain corners of the web, you will > have heard of Microformats: Clever uses of HTML that add > machine-readability to everyday web pages while preserving > human-readability. Microformats allow tools to make more sense of your > web pages, while not changing the visual appearance for visitors to > your site one whit. > > Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard > microformat to Google Maps results. Why should you care about some > invisible changes to our HTML? By marking up our results with the > hCard microformat, your browser can easily recognize the address and > contact information in the page, and help you transfer it to an > addressbook or phone more easily. Firefox users can install the > Operator or Tails extension; IE or Safari users can use one of these > bookmarklets. [...] _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss This email was received from the INTERNET and scanned by the Government Secure Intranet Anti-Virus service supplied by Cable&Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. (CCTM Certificate Number 2006/04/0007.) In case of problems, please call your organisation's IT Helpdesk. Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or recorded for legal purposes. +++++ The Forestry Commission's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried out on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. +++++ The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus-free From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Aug 2 01:49:32 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Aug 2 01:49:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: On 8/2/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > I addressed this in: > > I've been trying to find an explanation of what 'extended-address' actually means, the examples in the vCard spec seem to omit it. >From its order in the sequence of the fields in ADR, however, I think it's reasonably clear that it's more specific than the street address, so would be something like 'Flat 2b'. This also seems to be the common usage in hCard. For those reasons I'm unconvinced about putting all the address data available into that one field. It might be useful if someone could experiment with conforming agents to see if they can take multi-line imput for different ADR fields? > but people (Brian Suda, chiefly) insisted that my suggestion should not > be followed, and that such addresses should instead be wrapped with > class="label" - which is supposedly for: > > "formatted text corresponding to delivery address" > > Note the use of "formatted". Can you elaborate on what the issue is there? Most text on web pages is formatted, and I think in this context it just means 'with linebreaks' which fairly simple parsing rules would solve. My main hesitation about using LABEL is that it isn't part of ADR and so isn't appropriate for the ADR-without-hCard usages. > More recently, Tantek added: > > > > which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable > for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, > but outside the USA) I agree that i18n issues make this a bit too strict (I have similar reservations about the implied-n optimisations but that's tangential). IMO it may be that the best option is to say that ADR can exist without subproperties for hCard / solo-ADR use for the purposes of semantically expressing 'hey this is an address' but then to offer no mapping to vCard unless the sub-properties are present. -Ciaran McNulty From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 02:02:00 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Aug 2 02:02:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: On 01/08/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > > >>Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have now added > >>additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in particular is > >>consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all other public > >>domain contributors. > > > >Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit. > > I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject "Warning > of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above exchange of > 26 July, in: > > > > and telling me that: > > Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you > cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone on the > mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban. > > Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular > (which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish, > nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, > nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered and apt > description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand by it. If you'd like to correct my typos, please do, but the discuss mailing list isn't the venue to do so. If you feel that your response wasn't out of order, okay - feel free to say so or clarify your intent off list. > Ironically, Ms Berriman also implies that I'm a - quote - "jerk". The > OED tells me that that insult refers to "Someone of little or no > account; a fool, a stupid person". Perhaps she ought to put her own > house in order. Out of context. I simple quoted the statement from the "be nice" guidelines, as below: " Per the mailing-lists guideline "be nice": http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Be_nice "The admins may take swift action to ban or moderate individuals who essentially are "jerks" on the list." " > Also of interest is the fact that Ms Berriman signs her post "on behalf > of the microformats administration". I can find no reference to such an > organisation on the wiki or mailing list. Maybe I've missed something? This was just a politeness on my behalf, as I spoke not as an individual but for those listed on the governance section[1] of the wiki, who are refered to as the administration. I was under the impression that that would be clear enough for you. I also specifically said that you may email me if you've got any questions. I'm always more than happy to clarify things, or if you genuinely felt that you weren't in the wrong, that is up for discussion too. Holding such conversations on the discuss list isn't appropriate or helpful though. If you, or anyone else for that matter, would like to discuss this further, please email me off list. [1]http://microformats.org/wiki/governance -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 02:04:16 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Aug 2 02:04:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: On 02/08/07, Frances Berriman wrote: > This was just a politeness on my behalf, as I spoke not as an > individual but for those listed on the governance section[1] of the > wiki, who are refered to as the administration. I was under the > impression that that would be clear enough for you. My mistake. The word used is indeed "administrators", but it only needs a little bit of common sense applied. I'll be sure not to use "administration" in future. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Thu Aug 2 03:19:40 2007 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Thu Aug 2 03:19:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/8/07 20:02, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run > by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of > vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. > Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance > and rights issues which I and others have raised. Apparently they travel in black helicopters too http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Aug 2 05:45:08 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Aug 2 05:45:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <227E3647-635F-4E1A-B9A9-1428237987A1@randomchaos.com> On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:42 PM, Michael MD wrote: > Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/ > vcard but can still be very useful to humans! > - it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what > anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow! > > Perhaps we do need some way to mark up such addresses so that there > could be export tools that give the user options to split them? I don't understand why we need some way to mark up such addresses. Aren't publishers already marking them up with class="adr"? A while back I wrote a tool to insert geo coordinates in hCards based on addresses: http://microformat.makedatamakesense.com/auto_geo/ That doesn't require any structure to addresses, so it works fine with adr as unstructured text. I think we'd have a hard time coming up with a better solution to this problem than the one that's already working in practice. Peace, Scott From davidjohnmead at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 06:24:56 2007 From: davidjohnmead at gmail.com (David Mead) Date: Thu Aug 2 06:24:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <0po3Tyc1GRsGFwXv@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <0po3Tyc1GRsGFwXv@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: I don't think it's Operator that's at fault. I wrote a post about trying Google Maps (http://www.viewfromw6th.com/2007/08/microformats-getting-bigger.html) as soon as I heard they were using microformats. Looking up our company address I could not pull any meaningful data out using Operator, Tails or the LeftLogic bookmarklet. Though it's great news I'm a little saddened that Google couldn't get it right first time. Dave On 8/1/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com>, Gregor J. > Rothfuss writes > > >> Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This > >> search: > >> > >> > >> > >> has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up) > >> has: > >> > >> NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps > >> N:;; > >> ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > >> FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address: > >> ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;; > > >i will look into it. > > Thank you. > > >operator parsing behavior has changed in recent releases, and i had to > >change the markup a couple times to make it work. > > I'm not sure that Operator has anything to do with it. > > >any suggestions what ought to be fixed? > > You could start by producing valid (X)HTML, and put your styles in an > external style sheet - that at least would make it easier to debug! > > I don't know Javascript, so can't comment on any errors in that. > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Thu Aug 2 06:35:20 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Thu Aug 2 06:37:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <227E3647-635F-4E1A-B9A9-1428237987A1@randomchaos.com> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> <227E3647-635F-4E1A-B9A9-1428237987A1@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <1186061720.17568.775.camel@robslap> Hi all, converting a freeform address is definitely much easier nowadays with all the geocode services out there, so nobody should have to develop their own custom parser any more. For example Google provides an excellent service so any publisher with freeform address data should not only be able to generate a geocode from that text but also retrieve a nicely sliced up structured address too. e.g. UNSTRUCTURED INPUT DATA: (To use the previous address example) 922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44 GEOCODE CALL: http://maps.google.com/maps/geo?q=922+Aldridge+Rd,+Birmingham +B44&output=json&key=YOUR_GOOGLE_API_KEY_HERE STRUCTURED OUTPUT AS JSON (or other format as requested): {"name":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44","Status":{"code":200,"request":"geocode"},"Placemark":[{"id":"p1","address":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham, Birmingham, B44 8, UK","AddressDetails":{"Country":{"CountryNameCode":"GB", "AdministrativeArea":{"AdministrativeAreaName":"England", "SubAdministrativeArea":{"SubAdministrativeAreaName":"Birmingham", "Locality":{"LocalityName":"Birmingham","Thoroughfare":{"ThoroughfareName":"922 Aldridge Rd"},"PostalCode":{"PostalCodeNumber":"B44 8"}}}}},"Accuracy": 8},"Point":{"coordinates":[-1.903576,52.544932,0]}}]} So now you have nicely structured hCard data:
922 Aldridge Rd
Birmingham, Birmingham, B44
England
But I'm sure I'm telling you all how to suck eggs 8) Rob Manson BTW Scott...I tried your auto_geo tool and got the following error: Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@microformat.makedatamakesense.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error. More information about this error may be available in the server error log. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. From tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk Thu Aug 2 06:46:22 2007 From: tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk (Farndon, Tony) Date: Thu Aug 2 06:46:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Message-ID: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF68D@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> Has anyone built a page that would allow anyone to enter a freeform address, it gets sent to googles geocoder, does it's magic on the json output and then creates a fully marked up adr with children (plus a geo span whilst it is at it) for them to copy and paste? If not, could one be produced to compliment the hcard creator? T. -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Rob Manson Sent: 02 August 2007 14:35 To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps Hi all, converting a freeform address is definitely much easier nowadays with all the geocode services out there, so nobody should have to develop their own custom parser any more. For example Google provides an excellent service so any publisher with freeform address data should not only be able to generate a geocode from that text but also retrieve a nicely sliced up structured address too. e.g. UNSTRUCTURED INPUT DATA: (To use the previous address example) 922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44 GEOCODE CALL: http://maps.google.com/maps/geo?q=922+Aldridge+Rd,+Birmingham +B44&output=json&key=YOUR_GOOGLE_API_KEY_HERE STRUCTURED OUTPUT AS JSON (or other format as requested): {"name":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44","Status":{"code":200,"request":"geocode"},"Placemark":[{"id":"p1"," address":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham, Birmingham, B44 8, UK","AddressDetails":{"Country":{"CountryNameCode":"GB", "AdministrativeArea":{"AdministrativeAreaName":"England", "SubAdministrativeArea":{"SubAdministrativeAreaName":"Birmingham", "Locality":{"LocalityName":"Birmingham","Thoroughfare":{"ThoroughfareNam e":"922 Aldridge Rd"},"PostalCode":{"PostalCodeNumber":"B44 8"}}}}},"Accuracy": 8},"Point":{"coordinates":[-1.903576,52.544932,0]}}]} So now you have nicely structured hCard data:
922 Aldridge Rd
Birmingham, Birmingham, B44
England
But I'm sure I'm telling you all how to suck eggs 8) Rob Manson BTW Scott...I tried your auto_geo tool and got the following error: Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@microformat.makedatamakesense.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error. More information about this error may be available in the server error log. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss This email was received from the INTERNET and scanned by the Government Secure Intranet Anti-Virus service supplied by Cable&Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. (CCTM Certificate Number 2006/04/0007.) In case of problems, please call your organisation's IT Helpdesk. Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or recorded for legal purposes. +++++ The Forestry Commission's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried out on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. +++++ The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus-free From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Thu Aug 2 08:34:04 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:01:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats in Google Maps References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <002401c7d4a6$57078a00$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: Andy Mabbett wrote: > > which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable > for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, > but outside the USA) I'm with Andy on this one. In fact, Tantek's proposed algorithm doesn't even solve the problem of parsing US addresses. Consider:

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I recently had to write some code to transfer almost 500,000 addresses from a loosely formatted list to one which had separate fields for house name, address, town, county, country and postcode. Because these were almost entirely UK addresses, and I had a big database of all UK postal town and corresponding postcodes, I was able to get about 95% accuracy -- but that involved hundreds of lines of code. To cover a useful number of countries would require tens of thousands of lines of code. Requiring the use of heuristics to parse address data raises the barrier to entry for implementing hCard astronomically. Andy's suggestion of defaulting to "extended-address" is better, though given the semantics of "extended-address", which appears to be for flat numbers, I'd prefer to default to "street-address". How about: Where "adr" has content not enclosed in any explicit sub- properties, parsers MAY attempt to heuristically determine the address parts and, if appropriate, MAY ask the user to manually separate the address. Failing that, parsers MUST assume this content to be the "street-address". -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 42 days, 18:43.] Open Mobile Alliance DTD Oops! http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/xhtml-mobile-oops/ From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Thu Aug 2 06:55:09 2007 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:22:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF68D@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> References: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF68D@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> Message-ID: <1186062909.17568.791.camel@robslap> We do that internally via some scripts so I'd be happy to contribute one if more than a couple of people are interested in it. It could be a nice parallel to the vCard to hCard converter I contributed too. Rob On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 14:46 +0100, Farndon, Tony wrote: > Has anyone built a page that would allow anyone to enter a freeform > address, it gets sent to googles geocoder, does it's magic on the json > output and then creates a fully marked up adr with children (plus a geo > span whilst it is at it) for them to copy and paste? > > If not, could one be produced to compliment the hcard creator? > > T. From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Thu Aug 2 09:24:09 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:24:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/2/07 8:34 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> >> which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable >> for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries, >> but outside the USA) > > I'm with Andy on this one. To be clear, I wanted to document it as a brainstorm to be critiqued, with severe doubts myself, from the second paragraph in that section, which I wrote: "This may also be too difficult/complex to be dependable or interoperable, but it is worth at least documenting our considerations and analysis either way." In general, the documentation of such "strawman" thoughts and criticisms of such is just good science. Not every brainstorm should be taken as a proposal that is intended to be adopted. >
Please add examples that show problems with it to the section with the brainstorm rather than the emails list. And no need to try to be comprehensive about showing problems with it, one or two examples will do for now, given the doubts expressed from the origin. > I recently had to write some code to transfer almost 500,000 addresses > from a loosely formatted list to one which had separate fields for house > name, address, town, county, country and postcode. > > Because these were almost entirely UK addresses, and I had a big database > of all UK postal town and corresponding postcodes, I was able to get about > 95% accuracy -- but that involved hundreds of lines of code. To cover a > useful number of countries would require tens of thousands of lines of > code. This is a useful datapoint. Note that it doesn't prove difficulty (in that someone else may be able to write simpler/more efficient code, or not), but any such implementation experience is useful to capture. > Requiring the use of heuristics to parse address data raises the barrier to > entry for implementing hCard astronomically. Perhaps not "astronomically", but I agree with your sentiment. ;) > Andy's suggestion of defaulting to "extended-address" is better, though > given the semantics of "extended-address", which appears to be for flat > numbers, I'd prefer to default to "street-address". I'd prefer neither. I think there would be too much semantic dilution (or artificial semantic precision) by doing so (putting things that don't have a certain semantic into a field that implies that semantic). > How about: > > Where "adr" has content not enclosed in any explicit sub- > properties, parsers MAY attempt to heuristically determine > the address parts and, if appropriate, MAY ask the user > to manually separate the address. Failing that, parsers > MUST assume this content to be the "street-address". I'm not even sure about permitting the heuristic part. I think for now the simplest and most interoperable (and what I think implementations already do) is to make this an FAQ (because the spec already doesn't say to do anything with adr without any subproperty): http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#adr_without_children_FAQ Thanks, Tantek From rothfuss at google.com Thu Aug 2 09:47:20 2007 From: rothfuss at google.com (Gregor J. Rothfuss) Date: Thu Aug 2 09:47:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps In-Reply-To: <1186020295.17568.690.camel@robslap> References: <8068b42c0708011529p554c00f6i969d973164df2d27@mail.gmail.com> <1186015814.17568.684.camel@robslap> <8068b42c0708011811u2762a601i159210c04e33894c@mail.gmail.com> <1186020295.17568.690.camel@robslap> Message-ID: <8068b42c0708020947k1170f20bxf66103e54dd43304@mail.gmail.com> ah. i have not implemented microformats for geocodes yet. they are stored and handled differently. if i get some of that 20% time (heh) i will add support for it. On 8/1/07, Rob Manson wrote: > Hi Gregor, > > I just followed the tinyurl link that Andy Mabbett posted to the list > which lead to a Google Maps search: > > http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl > > Then did a "view selection source" on the address in the left hand > panel. > > Hope that helps... > > > Rob Manson > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Aug 2 10:03:36 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Aug 2 10:03:57 2007 Subject: [admin] Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> On Aug 1, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > >>> Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have >>> now added >>> additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in >>> particular is >>> consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all >>> other public >>> domain contributors. >> >> Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit. > > I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject > "Warning > of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above > exchange of > 26 July, in: > > July/010261.html> > > and telling me that: > > Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you > cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone > on the > mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban. > > Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular > (which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish, > nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish, > nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered > and apt > description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand > by it. The microformats admins have decided to ban Andy Mabbet from this community (both email lists and wiki) for one week, due to continued failure to adhere to the "be nice" guideline [1] after a private warning. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Be_nice Sincerely, Scott Reynen From thom at ts0.com Thu Aug 2 11:50:30 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Thu Aug 2 11:50:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B22776.5020004@ts0.com> did you carry on working on the idea of showing whats a microformat in the page? There was talk of a mouse cursor change when a user hovers over. The last mockup i saw had an icon at the end of the address bar with action. I think both of those would be a good way forward. I started a thread a while ago about the idea of coming up with a more user friendly name/description for microformats. You supported the idea then, has there been any thought on it from the FF guys? From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 13:08:56 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 13:08:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties Message-ID: I don't know if there's much interest in XOXO anymore, with sexier new h* monikers and all, but I seem to have great appreciation for this simple format. I am currently trying to understand how to best parse and understand the meaning of XOXO-ed content, and need some guidance/ideas on properties, specifically these: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Special_Properties Here are some thoughts on parsing of properties that I put down: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-brainstorming#Parsing_Properties My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code that does something unacceptable or illogical. Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something bigger and better? :DG< From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 14:07:54 2007 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Thu Aug 2 14:07:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> Hi Dmitri, On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > bigger and better? I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? -enp From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 15:47:14 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 15:47:16 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues :DG< On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > Hi Dmitri, > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > bigger and better? > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > -enp > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From kevinmarks at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:03:27 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:03:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> there are python and java versions here, with some tests http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al would be a fine idea. On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > :DG< > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > bigger and better? > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > -enp > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:27:38 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:27:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XOXO multi-valued property notation Message-ID: The description of how to specify multi-valued properties, recorded on xoxo-faq page seems logical and I think it belongs in the spec. Any objections if I move it over there? Perhaps right below the Special Properties? From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:30:26 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:30:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Can you point me to the existing tests? On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > there are python and java versions here, with some tests > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code > > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al > would be a fine idea. > > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > > > :DG< > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > > bigger and better? > > > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > > > -enp > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From kevinmarks at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:50:06 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:50:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code#testxoxo.py and similarly fro other languages (this code predates the repository). On Aug 2, 2007 5:30 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > Can you point me to the existing tests? > > > On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > > there are python and java versions here, with some tests > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code > > > > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al > > would be a fine idea. > > > > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > > > > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > > > > > :DG< > > > > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > > > bigger and better? > > > > > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > > > > > -enp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 17:54:58 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:55:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry. The HTML + JSON style tests... in other words, the test to which to convert. I don't think I am familiar with those. :DG< On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code#testxoxo.py > > and similarly fro other languages (this code predates the repository). > > On Aug 2, 2007 5:30 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > Can you point me to the existing tests? > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > > > there are python and java versions here, with some tests > > > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code > > > > > > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al > > > would be a fine idea. > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have > > > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful. > > > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment. > > > > > > > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back: > > > > > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues > > > > > > > > :DG< > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > > > > > Hi Dmitri, > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion > > > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code > > > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO > > > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something > > > > > > bigger and better? > > > > > > > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of > > > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much chatter. Your solution > > > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers? > > > > > > > > > > -enp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Thu Aug 2 19:10:56 2007 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Thu Aug 2 19:10:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour) In-Reply-To: <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > The microformats admins have decided to ban Andy Mabbet from this > community (both email lists and wiki) for one week, due to continued > failure to adhere to the "be nice" guideline [1] after a private warning. I don't condone Andy's tone when replying to the thread that started all of this. I think it is important to note that he is one of the more frequent contributors to this community and constantly challenges the ideas and concepts that are just accepted around here without explanation. While I don't always agree with Andy, he does have a knack for making logically sound arguments. It is vital to have people that can challenge the status quo, people such as Andy, involved in a community such as this. His replies reflect reservations that several members of this community choose not to express out of fear of retaliation. In this case the topic is: the insistence that we should not raise legal matters on the mailing list. The reasoning for not discussing legal matters on the list is not clear. It is ironic that in an open community, such as this, that we have any taboo topics... but here we are. The only attempt at explaining this why we cannot speak about legal matters is that nobody on here is a legal expert, including the admins. If that is the case, I think there is something that we can do to solve that issue. I propose that we get the Electronic Frontier Foundation involved. If not the EFF, then Creative Commons. Each of those organizations believe in the open exchange of information and have lawyers on the payroll. I volunteer to get the ball rolling if necessary. Thoughts and suggestions? -- manu From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 19:59:16 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Thu Aug 2 19:59:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties In-Reply-To: References: <7625BFD3-DFAE-41F6-BFD3-EC485D839F79@gmail.com> <73766b160708021703j4b022d9du41dbebc45470ac4@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160708021750n77900d17qca4578e49e4e1256@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, I see. Is this what you were referring to? hReview: http://tinyurl.com/3xgxlu JSON: http://tinyurl.com/2k7bff Looks pretty neat, if you ask me. Ryan, what more I should know about this? Perhaps we could connect on IRC tomorrow to discuss applying this to XOXO. :DG< From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 20:23:24 2007 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:23:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour) In-Reply-To: <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <230C286C-6FFE-4EF8-AFA6-A1FC4FBC4783@gmail.com> Hi Manu, On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:10 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: > The reasoning for not discussing legal matters on the list is not > clear. > It is ironic that in an open community, such as this, that we have any > taboo topics... but here we are. I an not a lawyer, but my understanding is that any public statements made by the adminstrators regarding legal matters could be used against them in case of legal action. Given the explicit goal of Microformats.org to avoid any sort of formal bureacracy, I suspect that there was a collective decision to simply avoid the issue altogether. If you want something more formal, you may want to look at GRDDL. :-) -- Ernie P. From microformats at 200ok.com.au Thu Aug 2 21:05:52 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Thu Aug 2 21:05:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> > > Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run > > by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of > > vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. > > Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance > > and rights issues which I and others have raised. > Apparently they travel in black helicopters too I don't think we should make light of this point. I've heard several people cite this impression as the reason they don't contribute to microformats. If we can't address the problem then I don't see how we can attract and retain active members. More than once I've observed unresolved discussions cut off with a post saying "wiki updated, issue closed". So, why would someone take time out of their day to contribute to a discussion if they expect to be ignored? To put it another way, if the core group is going to do as it pleases regardless of community discussion, why are the rest of us here? The core group is not a defined/invited/elected group so it's not like a W3C discussion list, where people understand they are giving feedback but will not be involved in the final decision. The expectation was that everyone could contribute, but that's not how it actually feels. I am not trying to be troublesome, I am expressing a genuine concern about this community. I don't think it serves anyone's purpose to ignore what many people feel is true. The informal approach worked well when the community was new and smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by accepting there's a problem. cheers, Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From ckstjohn at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 22:56:00 2007 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Thu Aug 2 22:56:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ba906450708022256k5b96339cse144f1aaef881a32@mail.gmail.com> On 8/3/07, Ben Buchanan wrote: > > The informal approach worked well when the community was new and > smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. > I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by > accepting there's a problem. > The IETF, that master of rough consensus and running code[1], is often sited as an example of a group that is good at lightweight standards development. And it is. But a closer look shows that "lightweight process" is not at all the same as "no process whatsoever." A quick read through the home page for the The Internet Engineering Steering Group[2] shows that there is quite a lot of hard-won wisdom about how groups of grown-ups[3] cooperate to produce a standard. The IETF process is not without problems, and I'm not suggesting it's something that should be copied, but it is a good example of how some real governance is necessary even for a very results-focused group of engineers. FWIW. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_consensus [2] http://www.ietf.org/iesg.html [3] And/or prickly unsocialized prima donna engineers pretending to be grown-ups :-) -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 06:17:36 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Fri Aug 3 06:17:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: To me, the issue was not about freedom of expression or lack thereof. It was about putting a damper on a bilious jackass attitude and behavior. I doubt the actual topic of discussion was in question. Yeah, we all could probably benefit from a good social behavior class (ok, I can't _really_ speak for everyone) , but personal insults, insinuations, and conspiracy-mongering are clearly out of line. :DG< On 8/2/07, Ben Buchanan wrote: > > > Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run > > > by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of > > > vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness. > > > Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance > > > and rights issues which I and others have raised. > > Apparently they travel in black helicopters too > > I don't think we should make light of this point. I've heard several > people cite this impression as the reason they don't contribute to > microformats. If we can't address the problem then I don't see how we > can attract and retain active members. > > More than once I've observed unresolved discussions cut off with a > post saying "wiki updated, issue closed". So, why would someone take > time out of their day to contribute to a discussion if they expect to > be ignored? > > To put it another way, if the core group is going to do as it pleases > regardless of community discussion, why are the rest of us here? > > The core group is not a defined/invited/elected group so it's not like > a W3C discussion list, where people understand they are giving > feedback but will not be involved in the final decision. The > expectation was that everyone could contribute, but that's not how it > actually feels. > > I am not trying to be troublesome, I am expressing a genuine concern > about this community. I don't think it serves anyone's purpose to > ignore what many people feel is true. > > The informal approach worked well when the community was new and > smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. > I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by > accepting there's a problem. > > cheers, > Ben > > -- > --- > --- The future has arrived; it's just not > --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From eric at meyerweb.com Fri Aug 3 07:10:07 2007 From: eric at meyerweb.com (Eric A. Meyer) Date: Fri Aug 3 07:11:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour) In-Reply-To: <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <636C8D59-C3BA-48B3-9C39-778A5C9B47C9@randomchaos.com> <46B28EB0.6010506@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: At 10:10 PM -0400 8/2/07, Manu Sporny wrote: >It is vital to have people that can challenge >the status quo, people such as Andy, involved in a community such as this. I agree that challenges to the status quo can be useful, but it is NOT valuable to have members of community who will challenge it in abusive ways-- any more than it is useful to have members who will defend it in abusive ways. (I'm not saying you are such a person, Manu; just pointing out that the need to be non-abusive extends to everyone, regardless of where they stand on any issue.) >His replies reflect reservations that several members of this community >choose not to express out of fear of retaliation. To date, the administrators-- of which I could be considered an unofficial member, though I've done next to no administrative work since the list was founded-- have not "retaliated". Ever. They act to defend and preserve the community's nature, and do so with great reluctance. Too much reluctance, in my opinion, but that's the nature of this community. Andy does not get banned for challenging the status quo or expressing reservations. Andy gets himself temporarily banned from time to time because he can't seem to bring himself to treat other members of the community with respect and civility, nor to avoid borderline trollish behaviors. I think that's a shame, because much of the time I find myself in at least partial agreement with what (I think) he's trying to say. But if that sounds in any way like a defense of Andy's attitude or criticism of the administrators' actions, it is neither. Nobody has the right to poison discourse and damage the community, no matter what they're trying to say. -- Eric A. Meyer (eric@meyerweb.com) Principal, Complex Spiral Consulting http://complexspiral.com/ "CSS: The Definitive Guide," "CSS2.0 Programmer's Reference," "Eric Meyer on CSS," and more http://meyerweb.com/eric/books/ From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 08:50:01 2007 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Fri Aug 3 08:50:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Govermance: RE inappropriate behaviour In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0708022105i27b61097o59fb6f27dad99d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3029281A-1F46-40AE-A503-3257B4AA150D@gmail.com> Hi Ben, On Aug 2, 2007, at 9:05 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: > The informal approach worked well when the community was new and > smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping. > I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by > accepting there's a problem. I strongly encourage you to contribute to the governance-issues wiki page: http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues THAT is the appropriate venue for expressing such concerns, and proposing concrete corrective actions. I've taken several stabs at this issue before, but had to pull back since there wasn't strong evidence of broader public concern. If there is a widespread problem, I hope interested parties would be willing to stand up and be counted. Best, -- Ernie P. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Aug 3 09:38:15 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Aug 3 10:01:19 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Profile/XDMP/GRDDL Critique Message-ID: Dear all, I've been working on improving the metadata profile for my content management system. (Yes, a CMS that takes metadata seriously at last!) Here's the profile: http://demiblog.org/schemes/metadata?ver=0.2.2 I've attempted to correctly use XDMP and GRDDL, but I'm not 100% confident that I've got it right. Does anyone have any hints on how the document could be improved to make it into a more useful metadata profile? For an example of a site that *uses* the metadata profile, see my sig. Thanks in advance, -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 43 days, 20:09.] Command Line Interfaces, Again http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/command-line-again/ From taylor_cowan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 12:23:45 2007 From: taylor_cowan at yahoo.com (Taylor Cowan) Date: Fri Aug 3 12:23:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-tag links with # Message-ID: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In using hAtom I was interested in populating the "@scheme" attribute of the Atom category. For example: It's interesting to me to know from where the tag comes, which community or folksonomy is it part of. It's valuable information that gets lost in the rel-tag parse as indicated by the spec today. Then I found that '#' anchors are ignored based on the defacto standards. (http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues) What impressed by is that the defacto standards pretty much entail that the last token of the link (/a/b/lastoken) and the label ( ..>label ) are nearly always the same. This holds for nearly every example I've looked at. The concept of having a label, a visual display for a tag, is completely foreign to my understanding of tags....and yet the rel-tag allows for this. That's so odd, because tags are normally just that...the tag and nothing but the tag. I'd also bring to the discussion the theme of visual human readable data...wherein it seems preferable to have the link, and the tag be the same: (although perfectly acceptable by rel-tag) should be: (this is the defacto standard, it's not weird like the previous example) and could also be (still abides by URL standards) What I find most ironic is that the defacto standards mentioned on the wiki, flickr and del.icio.us, don't even use rel-tag (or at least not yet). the HREF is valuable as a link to more information about the tag, from whence it came, related items, and the value of the tag should contain the tag itself, as is the defacto standard and "ESTABLISHED PRACTICE" on both flickr and del.icio.us. I propose at the very least that '#' be allowed in the rel-tag spec...if we're writing weird parsers to snip of that last term based on '/', we might as well add '#' as a delimiter, and it would even be better if the spec can be reconciled with how tags are really used on the web, ie, the display text defines the tag. Taylor ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From kevinmarks at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 13:12:45 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Fri Aug 3 13:13:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-tag links with # In-Reply-To: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73766b160708031312v77225b83pedde4196dc84213@mail.gmail.com> On Aug 3, 2007 12:23 PM, Taylor Cowan wrote: > In using hAtom I was interested in populating the "@scheme" attribute of the Atom category. > For example: > > > > > It's interesting to me to know from where the tag comes, which community or folksonomy is it part of. It's valuable information that gets lost in the rel-tag parse as indicated by the spec today. That is the tagspace part for the URL, eg for htttp://technorati.com/tag/goat 'goat' is the tag and 'htttp://technorati.com/tag/' is the tagspace. This maps to the Atom scheme directly. > > Then I found that '#' anchors are ignored based on the defacto standards. (http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues) This is by design. > > What impressed by is that the defacto standards pretty much entail that the last token of the link (/a/b/lastoken) and the label ( ..>label ) are nearly always the same. This holds for nearly every example I've looked at. The concept of having a label, a visual display for a tag, is completely foreign to my understanding of tags....and yet the rel-tag allows for this. That's so odd, because tags are normally just that...the tag and nothing but the tag. I'd also bring to the discussion the theme of visual human readable data...wherein it seems preferable to have the link, and the tag be the same: > > (although perfectly acceptable by rel-tag) > > should be: > > (this is the defacto standard, it's not weird like the previous example) > > and could also be > > (still abides by URL standards) no, this is tagging it 'mytags' The Display text allows a human-readable tag where the underlying url is less so eg > > What I find most ironic is that the defacto standards mentioned on the wiki, flickr and del.icio.us, don't even use rel-tag (or at least not yet). the HREF is valuable as a link to more information about the tag, from whence it came, related items, and the value of the tag should contain the tag itself, as is the defacto standard and "ESTABLISHED PRACTICE" on both flickr and del.icio.us. > > I propose at the very least that '#' be allowed in the rel-tag spec...if we're writing weird parsers to snip of that last term based on '/', we might as well add '#' as a delimiter, and it would even be better if the spec can be reconciled with how tags are really used on the web, ie, the display text defines the tag. The reason we chose path component was a) this was existing practice and b) it provides some protection against using totally arbitrary URLs as tagspaces, which creates spam jeopardy. You need to link to a real tagspace that behaves sensibly if someone clicks on it. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Aug 3 14:24:53 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Aug 3 15:01:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel-tag links with # References: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52jco4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Taylor Cowan wrote: > > (although perfectly acceptable by rel-tag) It rarely happens, but it would be good if it happened more. That way, people whouldn't need to have an explicit list of tags at the end of the article -- the tag links would be scattered throughout the text as appropriate, which is more human-friendly. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 44 days, 1:03.] Command Line Interfaces, Again http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/command-line-again/ From chris.messina at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 10:27:41 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sat Aug 4 10:27:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel-tag links with # In-Reply-To: <52jco4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <943560.57952.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <52jco4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: For the record, that's how I tag my blog posts -- using links throughout a post. Not many people are aware of this convention however, nor the reliance on the last URL fragment as the actual tag. Still, that reliance allows me to embed meta characteristics without the awkward list of tags after the content. Chris Sent from my iPhone On Aug 3, 2007, at 5:24 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Taylor Cowan wrote: > >>