From m at klml.de Sat Dec 1 18:06:21 2007 From: m at klml.de (Klaus Mueller) Date: Sat Dec 1 18:06:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki order? In-Reply-To: <39365AB7-861E-449F-8CC0-DA8A0A52DFA1@theryanking.com> References: <474B40ED.2090800@klml.de> <39365AB7-861E-449F-8CC0-DA8A0A52DFA1@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <4752131D.2000400@klml.de> Hi, ryan schrieb: >> * Is it OK to use more templates? >> ** one for different language versions of an Article, like the interwiki >> concept what do you think about this: http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:Interwiki the usage: http://microformats.org/wiki/process-de#Vorschlag_eines_Microformat >> ** "buttons" or boxes for the status of the site (standard, draft, >> discuss) > > Once again, volunteers welcome. :) and this: http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:Status you can see the usage on my userpage: http://microformats.org/wiki/User:VanGore the structure is from: http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Iterate a other idea: http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:formatset usage: http://microformats.org/wiki/bankaccount-examples the structure is from: http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Pages_to_create shuld we call this template "Related pages"? Comments are welcome, here or in the wiki. greet klml From p at premasagar.com Mon Dec 3 08:34:46 2007 From: p at premasagar.com (Premasagar Rose) Date: Mon Dec 3 08:34:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> Can anyone enlighten me...? The Operator Firefox extension seems to be doing something strange. When I added hCalendar to http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/bangladeshboat/ the "Locations" column of Operator stopped displaying the location name and instead started displaying the event summary. Is this an issue with the Operator parser, or due to my HTML? Sample HTML (it also uses hAtom and xFolk):

  • Diary: Cyclone devastation

    The diary of the BBC's month-long journey along Bangladesh's rivers, examining climate change and other key issues.

    • last week
    • Rayenda, Bangladesh
    • Thanks, Prem. -- p@premasagar.com http://premasagar.com | http://dharmafly.com From tombaromba at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 09:51:07 2007 From: tombaromba at gmail.com (Tom Byers) Date: Mon Dec 3 09:51:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] vevent question - matching summary Message-ID: Hi all, I'm trying to implement vevent on a calender. As in most people's lives I have events that repeat (weekly classes, etc...) but when I use the same summary, operator only chooses the first one - any ideas (if this has been asked before, please point me in the right direction) Thanks! Tom Byers From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Dec 3 10:18:50 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Dec 3 10:19:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> Message-ID: <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> No immediate theories on your parsing problem I'm afraid, although I would flag this as an issue: On 3 Dec 2007, at 16:34, Premasagar Rose wrote: > > Rayenda, Bangladesh > There's no way that ?+22.31119;+89.86145? is an abbreviation of ?Rayenda, Bangladesh?. Please, don't neglect the defined semantics of HTML in order to hack parsers. Ben From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Dec 3 10:58:51 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Dec 3 10:58:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> On Dec 3, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Ben Ward wrote: >> > title="+22.31119;+89.86145"> >> Rayenda, Bangladesh >> > > There's no way that ?+22.31119;+89.86145? is an abbreviation of > ?Rayenda, Bangladesh?. Without commenting on the truthfulness of the statement, the above syntax says the opposite: that "Rayenda, Bangladesh" is an abbreviation of "+22.31119;+89.86145." The title attribute is the long form, not the abbreviation. I don't know if this is just careless language or actual confusion, but this has come up multiple times and I think it's important we're all clear on what the markup asserts if we're going to have a discussion about the truthfulness of that assertion. Peace, Scott From p at premasagar.com Mon Dec 3 11:08:19 2007 From: p at premasagar.com (Premasagar Rose) Date: Mon Dec 3 11:08:27 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <47545423.3090604@premasagar.com> Thanks for your feedback, Ben. Isn't it the other way around? The contents of the element is an abbreviation for the full version given in the title attribute. That makes sense here: "Rayenda, Bangladesh" is a fuzzy approximation / abbreviation for a very specific geographical location "+22.31119;+89.86145". I took this as inspiration: http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-brainstorming Prem. Ben Ward wrote: > No immediate theories on your parsing problem I'm afraid, although I > would flag this as an issue: > > On 3 Dec 2007, at 16:34, Premasagar Rose wrote: >> > title="+22.31119;+89.86145"> >> Rayenda, Bangladesh >> > > There's no way that ?+22.31119;+89.86145? is an abbreviation of > ?Rayenda, Bangladesh?. Please, don't neglect the defined semantics of > HTML in order to hack parsers. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- p@premasagar.com http://premasagar.com | http://dharmafly.com From ryan at theryanking.com Mon Dec 3 11:54:21 2007 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Mon Dec 3 11:54:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] vevent question - matching summary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AFC7FB5-05E9-4229-8A55-BD0636382C79@theryanking.com> On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Tom Byers wrote: > Hi all, I'm trying to implement vevent on a calender. As in most > people's lives I have events that repeat (weekly classes, etc...) but > when I use the same summary, operator only chooses the first one - any > ideas (if this has been asked before, please point me in the right > direction) Operator applies some heuristics to de-dupe microformat instances on a single page. It sounds like identical SUMMARYs is one of those. Can we get a url to this page? -ryan From tombaromba at gmail.com Mon Dec 3 12:57:39 2007 From: tombaromba at gmail.com (Tom Byers) Date: Mon Dec 3 12:57:42 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] vevent question - matching summary In-Reply-To: <4AFC7FB5-05E9-4229-8A55-BD0636382C79@theryanking.com> References: <4AFC7FB5-05E9-4229-8A55-BD0636382C79@theryanking.com> Message-ID: Hi Ryan, thanks for the help (and the additions to my vocabulary :) ), I'm not on the right computer at the mo but I was roughing it out as this before:
    Things I do in the week
    Date Activity

    December 11th:

    7.30pm to 9.30pm

    Sculpture class: New model, class 1 of 5

    Camden, London

    December 18th:

    7.30pm to 9.30pm

    Sculpture class: New model, class 2 of 5

    Camden, London
    On Dec 3, 2007 7:54 PM, ryan wrote: > > On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Tom Byers wrote: > > > Hi all, I'm trying to implement vevent on a calender. As in most > > people's lives I have events that repeat (weekly classes, etc...) but > > when I use the same summary, operator only chooses the first one - any > > ideas (if this has been asked before, please point me in the right > > direction) > > Operator applies some heuristics to de-dupe microformat instances on > a single page. It sounds like identical SUMMARYs is one of those. > > Can we get a url to this page? > > -ryan > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Dec 3 13:26:58 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Dec 3 13:27:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <8907BF9A-44EC-4718-A0CA-F27F33A6885F@ben-ward.co.uk> On 3 Dec 2007, at 18:58, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Dec 3, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Ben Ward wrote: > >>> >>> Rayenda, Bangladesh >>> >> >> There's no way that ?+22.31119;+89.86145? is an abbreviation of >> ?Rayenda, Bangladesh?. > > Without commenting on the truthfulness of the statement, the above > syntax says the opposite: that "Rayenda, Bangladesh" is an > abbreviation of "+22.31119;+89.86145." The title attribute is the > long form, not the abbreviation. I don't know if this is just > careless language or actual confusion, but this has come up > multiple times and I think it's important we're all clear on what > the markup asserts if we're going to have a discussion about the > truthfulness of that assertion. You are completely correct, not a misunderstanding on my part, I just wrote the wrong thing (I've been rather ill, my brain isn't joining all the dots in the right order at this point). I stand by point, and I think the examples on geo-brainstorming are dangerous. Premasagar, the ?brainstorming? pages are just that, and shouldn't be considered part of the specification itself. I'm sorry that our pages are misleading like that. The critical part of the HTML4 spec that causes ?Rayenda, Bangladesh? *not* to be an abbreviation of ?22.31119;+89.86145? is this: > ?The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the abbreviated expression itself, as it > would normally appear in running text. The title attribute of these elements may be used to provide > the full or expanded form of the expression.? > ?as it would normally appear in running text.? Whilst I appreciate the HTML4 spec can be a little vague sometimes, in this case it's pretty clear: ABBR is not for fuzzy approximations, it's for abbreviated expressions. I think we've got to be really delicate and careful about this. Microformats prides itself on building technologies on top of existing standards. The abbreviation pattern is a neat parsing trick, but you've gotta meet the requirements of the underlying technology. Regards, Ben For reference, the section from the HTML4 spec regarding ABBR and ACRONYM > ABBR: > Indicates an abbreviated form (e.g., WWW, HTTP, URI, Mass., etc.). > ACRONYM: > Indicates an acronym (e.g., WAC, radar, etc.). > > The ABBR and ACRONYM elements allow authors to clearly indicate > occurrences of abbreviations and acronyms. Western languages make > extensive use of acronyms such as "GmbH", "NATO", and "F.B.I.", as > well as abbreviations like "M.", "Inc.", "et al.", "etc.". Both > Chinese and Japanese use analogous abbreviation mechanisms, wherein > a long name is referred to subsequently with a subset of the Han > characters from the original occurrence. Marking up these > constructs provides useful information to user agents and tools > such as spell checkers, speech synthesizers, translation systems > and search-engine indexers. > > The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the > abbreviated expression itself, as it would normally appear in > running text. The title attribute of these elements may be used to > provide the full or expanded form of the expression. > > Here are some sample uses of ABBR: > >

    > WWW > title="Société Nationale des Chemins de Fer"> > SNCF > > Doña > abbr. > Note that abbreviations and acronyms often have idiosyncratic > pronunciations. For example, while "IRS" and "BBC" are typically > pronounced letter by letter, "NATO" and "UNESCO" are pronounced > phonetically. Still other abbreviated forms (e.g., "URI" and "SQL") > are spelled out by some people and pronounced as words by other > people. When necessary, authors should use style sheets to specify > the pronunciation of an abbreviated form. ? http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1 From glenn.jones at madgex.com Mon Dec 3 14:34:20 2007 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Mon Dec 3 14:30:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract's portable social network parser Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF015FA532@MOBY.Clarence.local> ufXtract's portable social network parser is a combination of the ufXtract microformats parser and a spider which follows rel="me" links. It has been designed to extract profiles and friends lists from social networks and other sites which have microformats support. The parser returns two main collections of data, all the rel="me" links and any hCard-XFN patterns. The parser API http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/ A demo using JavaScript and JSON http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/demo01.htm The Parser You can set the parser to single single or multiple domains. Currently, there are limits to the number of pages which will be parsed (20). Each collection item is given an additional source-url attribute to identify its origin There is support for both XML and JSON output, for both client and server-side development. The parser also uses a version of the representative hCard concept, which tries to identify the hCard representing the profile owner. The implementation is a little more complex than described on the microformats wiki as it extends over multiple pages and domains. This means you may find multiple representative hCards from one call to the API, but there should only ever be one per a URL. The Demo I believe there are a number of different ways that this functionality could be designed into web sites. So I have provided a simple interface design to demonstrate one possibility. It's a bit of a homage to the getsatisfaction.com registration page with a few extra twists. I would like to thank my co-worker James Wragg who created the JavaScript for the demo. Of the sites listed on the demo last.fm and ma.gnolia.com return the best results. The other sites have differing levels of portable social network support. It also works well against blogs such as adactio.com or tantek.com that are marked-up with rel="me" . It's worth trying out the two depth search levels. Pages not parsing You may find on some sites like twitter.com only certain pages are parsed. These sites often have good microformats support, but parts of their functionally are locked behind logon's. The parser does not support authenticated sessions as this would mean asking the user to pass me their log-in details which is a really bad idea. If I can lay my hands on a good Open-ID and/or OAuth C# libraries, I will try and implement some different types of authentication. Research This is all research work still under development, I placed it on the web for others to experiment with. I hope you enjoy playing with it. Glenn From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Mon Dec 3 15:59:25 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Mon Dec 3 15:59:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <8907BF9A-44EC-4718-A0CA-F27F33A6885F@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> <8907BF9A-44EC-4718-A0CA-F27F33A6885F@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <18050cf90712031559w7b420b4ercf9e36b669f334a8@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM, Ben Ward wrote: > The critical part of the HTML4 spec that causes 'Rayenda, Bangladesh' > *not* to be an abbreviation of '22.31119;+89.86145' is this: > > "The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the > abbreviated expression itself, as it > would normally appear in running text. The title attribute of > these elements may be used to provide > the full or expanded form of the expression." > > "as it would normally appear in running text." For the ABBR element to be use properly the title attribute would need to contain not a single point coordinate, but a representation of the Rayenda area itself. While this could be done by combining the techniques for image map poly coordinates with actual geo-coordinates, this needs to be more carefully and fully thought out. -- Paul Wilkins From jpanzer at acm.org Mon Dec 3 23:13:47 2007 From: jpanzer at acm.org (John Panzer) Date: Mon Dec 3 23:13:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <18050cf90712031559w7b420b4ercf9e36b669f334a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> <8907BF9A-44EC-4718-A0CA-F27F33A6885F@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90712031559w7b420b4ercf9e36b669f334a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4754FE2B.2020604@acm.org> Paul Wilkins wrote: > On Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM, Ben Ward wrote: > >> The critical part of the HTML4 spec that causes 'Rayenda, Bangladesh' >> *not* to be an abbreviation of '22.31119;+89.86145' is this: >> >> "The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the >> abbreviated expression itself, as it >> would normally appear in running text. The title attribute of >> these elements may be used to provide >> the full or expanded form of the expression." >> >> "as it would normally appear in running text." >> > > For the ABBR element to be use properly the title attribute would need > to contain not a single point coordinate, but a representation of the > Rayenda area itself. While this could be done by combining the > techniques for image map poly coordinates with actual geo-coordinates, > this needs to be more carefully and fully thought out. > I've been asked how to handle this case (you have an area, or an inexact location, and want to encode it while providing a friendly human readable but possibly ambiguous short hand name for said place). Is there any existing practices to look at? Secondly, would this be a valid geo encoding 'abbreviation' ? the point under my finger right now John From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Dec 4 08:24:22 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Dec 4 08:24:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] =?windows-1252?q?Avoiding_Premature_Optimisation_in?= =?windows-1252?q?_=91The_Process=92?= Message-ID: <9FA5BBE6-9205-4907-9266-884A1E4674C6@ben-ward.co.uk> As some of my recent messages will clearly suggest, I'm concerned that we are becoming too quick during development of new formats to leap on some of the optimisation patterns established for other formats (abbr-pattern, include-pattern). We're starting to see situations ? such as co-ordinates being the expansion of a place name ? where we seem to be thinking of the pattern before we're thinking about the meaning of the raw HTML it produces. I'd like to see the Process include something that perhaps discourages or even disallows the use of optimisation patterns (Include, ABBR, any others in the future) until after the first sets of mark-up are produced and semantically optimised. Then, where patterns do match the optimal mark-up and HTML semantics, they can be added. Where they do not, then we identify situations that require new patterns. My hope would be that by including such a step, we avoid shoehorning things into the ABBR pattern that are inappropriate, and force the entire development community to think about HTML first. Ben From hober0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 08:59:34 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Tue Dec 4 09:00:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Avoiding Premature Optimisation in =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIFByb2Nl?= =?utf-8?b?c3PigJk=?= References: <9FA5BBE6-9205-4907-9266-884A1E4674C6@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: Ben wrote: > I'd like to see the Process include something that perhaps discourages > or even disallows the use of optimisation patterns (Include, ABBR, any > others in the future) until after the first sets of mark-up are > produced and semantically optimised. Then, where patterns do match the > optimal mark-up and HTML semantics, they can be added. Where they do > not, then we identify situations that require new patterns. Sounds good to me. -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From ryan at theryanking.com Tue Dec 4 11:16:03 2007 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Tue Dec 4 11:16:30 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Avoiding_Premature_Optimisatio?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?n_in_=91The_Process=92?= In-Reply-To: <9FA5BBE6-9205-4907-9266-884A1E4674C6@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <9FA5BBE6-9205-4907-9266-884A1E4674C6@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A465932-B9C4-4DC9-9BD6-B2B7C93543A3@theryanking.com> On Dec 4, 2007, at 8:24 AM, Ben Ward wrote: > As some of my recent messages will clearly suggest, I'm concerned > that we are becoming too quick during development of new formats to > leap on some of the optimisation patterns established for other > formats (abbr-pattern, include-pattern). > > We're starting to see situations ? such as co-ordinates being the > expansion of a place name ? where we seem to be thinking of the > pattern before we're thinking about the meaning of the raw HTML it > produces. > > I'd like to see the Process include something that perhaps > discourages or even disallows the use of optimisation patterns > (Include, ABBR, any others in the future) until after the first > sets of mark-up are produced and semantically optimised. Then, > where patterns do match the optimal mark-up and HTML semantics, > they can be added. Where they do not, then we identify situations > that require new patterns. > > My hope would be that by including such a step, we avoid > shoehorning things into the ABBR pattern that are inappropriate, > and force the entire development community to think about HTML first. I agree that many tend to jump to using the existing patterns without clearly thinking about about what that means in HTML. On the other hand, the patterns are things we've found common to several formats and could be considered microformats Good Practice (used appropriately), so I don't want to outright discourage the use of things like abbr-pattern, but just make it more clear how to use it well. -ryan From thom at ts0.com Wed Dec 5 01:48:18 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Wed Dec 5 01:48:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern Message-ID: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> I've just updated an old greasemonkey script that adds links to friends sites as you type their name. It'll now add a hCard and XFN. http://www.ts0.com/2007/12/friend-links.asp Now I copied the HTML structure from Jeremy's site, he uses a span to specify the hCard. I was wondering though if cite would be more semantically valuable here? It depends on how it's used but for most cases I can think of it would work. Any ideas? From jeremy at adactio.com Wed Dec 5 05:45:29 2007 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Wed Dec 5 05:45:37 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> Message-ID: Thom wrote: > Now I copied the HTML structure from Jeremy's site, he uses a span to > specify the hCard. I was wondering though if cite would be more > semantically valuable here? It depends on how it's used but for most > cases I can think of it would work. Any ideas? Good point. I tend to use the cite element when I'm referencing *things* like films and books but I hadn't thought about using it for *people*. The spec says that the element should contain "a reference to other sources" and even gives an example of citing a person: As Harry S. Truman said... http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-CITE So I think you may be right, Thom. The cite element looks like a good fit for situations where I'm *referencing* other people (which is usually what happens in a blog post) and seems like a good fit for the root element of an hCard. It's certainly semantically richer than using a span element. I think this would make a good addition to the hCard authoring page: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring along with suggestions about when to use (and not use) the address element, which currently is listed in the hCard FAQs: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Should_I_use_ADDRESS_for_hCards If I have time, I'll do some Wiki updating later today. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From thom at ts0.com Wed Dec 5 07:20:56 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Wed Dec 5 07:21:01 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> Message-ID: <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> Jeremy Keith wrote: > The spec says that the element should contain "a reference to other > sources" and even gives an example of citing a person: I had a look at the specs too and it did seem to make sense. If you're referring to something someone said then that's clearly a citation. What if you're just saying they were present at an event? You can't really cite someone for that. I'll probably leave it out of the GM script for now. From stefan.auditor at erdfisch.de Wed Dec 5 07:21:55 2007 From: stefan.auditor at erdfisch.de (stefan.auditor@erdfisch.de) Date: Wed Dec 5 07:22:05 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: microformats-discuss Digest, Vol 31, Issue 2 Message-ID: <20071205152155.24053.qmail@km14019.keymachine.de> In der Zeit vom 05.12.2007 bis einschlie?lich 06.12.2007 befinde ich mich nicht im B?ro. Dringende Anfragen richten Sie bitte an info@erdfisch.de, weiterhin erreichen Sie unser B?ro unter +49 180 3471133 300 (0,09 EURO/Min aus dem Festnetz der Dt. Telekom). Selbstverst?ndlich werde ich mich nach meiner R?ckkehr sofort um Ihre Nachricht k?mmern. -- Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Stefan Auditor erdfisch :: internetl?sungen Stefan Auditor, Frank Holldorff und Fabian Lorenzen GbR Internet: http://erdfisch.de E-Mail : info@erdfisch.de Telefon : +49 180 3471133 300 (0,09 EURO/Min) Telefax : +49 180 3471133 301 (0,09 EURO/Min) Mannheimer Str. 281 69123 Heidelberg Drupal Developer - http://drupal.org Mitbetreiber Drupalcenter - http://drupalcenter.de From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Dec 5 07:53:33 2007 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Dec 5 07:53:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes Message-ID: Hello! Just to say that hCalendar is used fairly extensively to describe broadcasts on bbc.co.uk/programmes here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/genres/music And here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation And here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qpgr/laston And etc Schedules for all bbc tv and radio to follow shortly and replace the existing network/what's on next year Having said that it's not been through accessibility testing yet so it might not be for long... http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Wed Dec 5 08:06:58 2007 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (James O'Donnell) Date: Wed Dec 5 08:07:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <4754FE2B.2020604@acm.org> References: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> <8907BF9A-44EC-4718-A0CA-F27F33A6885F@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90712031559w7b420b4ercf9e36b669f334a8@mail.gmail.com> <4754FE2B.2020604@acm.org> Message-ID: <0CA781E7-13E9-45CC-9443-F4F89774FE69@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 4 Dec 2007, at 07:13, John Panzer wrote: > I've been asked how to handle this case (you have an area, or an > inexact location, and want to encode it while providing a friendly > human readable but possibly ambiguous short hand name for said > place). Is there any existing practices to look at? > Secondly, would this be a valid geo encoding 'abbreviation' ? > > the point under my finger right > now The thing about abbreviations is, the expanded text replaces the shortened form, rather than supplementing it. So I'd guess your example wouldn't work unless the text 'the point under my finger right now' could be replaced by '22.31119;+89.86145' and still make sense when read in its larger context. is probably a safer element to use for encoding lat/long positions. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Wed Dec 5 08:13:50 2007 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (James O'Donnell) Date: Wed Dec 5 08:13:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> Message-ID: On 5 Dec 2007, at 15:20, Thom Shannon wrote: > Jeremy Keith wrote: >> The spec says that the element should contain "a reference to >> other sources" and even gives an example of citing a person: > I had a look at the specs too and it did seem to make sense. If > you're referring to something someone said then that's clearly a > citation. What if you're just saying they were present at an event? > You can't really cite someone for that. I think that's a perfectly acceptable use of . I've used it for marking up the names of ships or books or bands. Handy for indicating that some text is the name of a person or thing. I wonder if this would solve a problem I've had in the past - marking up variations on a name, within a text, to indicate that they all refer to the same person (eg. Captain Cook or James Cook or just simply Cook). with a title attribute could probably do that, with a unique full name in the title attribute. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From thom at ts0.com Wed Dec 5 08:54:30 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Wed Dec 5 08:54:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> Message-ID: <4756D7C6.9090700@ts0.com> > I wonder if this would solve a problem I've had in the past - marking > up variations on a name, within a text, to indicate that they all > refer to the same person (eg. Captain Cook or James Cook or just > simply Cook). with a title attribute could probably do that, > with a unique full name in the title attribute. That sounds more like a case for abbr, they're all abbreviations of "Captain James Cook". You could also use a link to a common URI to indicate they're all referring to the same entity, possibly with a rel? From jpanzer at acm.org Wed Dec 5 09:28:33 2007 From: jpanzer at acm.org (John Panzer) Date: Wed Dec 5 09:25:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <0CA781E7-13E9-45CC-9443-F4F89774FE69@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> <8907BF9A-44EC-4718-A0CA-F27F33A6885F@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90712031559w7b420b4ercf9e36b669f334a8@mail.gmail.com> <4754FE2B.2020604@acm.org> <0CA781E7-13E9-45CC-9443-F4F89774FE69@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <4756DFC1.1000800@acm.org> James O'Donnell wrote: > > On 4 Dec 2007, at 07:13, John Panzer wrote: > >> I've been asked how to handle this case (you have an area, or an >> inexact location, and want to encode it while providing a friendly >> human readable but possibly ambiguous short hand name for said >> place). Is there any existing practices to look at? >> Secondly, would this be a valid geo encoding 'abbreviation' ? >> >> the point under my finger right >> now > > The thing about abbreviations is, the expanded text replaces the > shortened form, rather than supplementing it. So I'd guess your > example wouldn't work unless the text 'the point under my finger right > now' could be replaced by '22.31119;+89.86145' and still make sense > when read in its larger context. > > is probably a safer element to use for encoding lat/long > positions. Yes, in context this is really additional annotation, so abbr would be wrong. Thanks. But then is title appropriate if using a span? the point under my finger right now. The adr microformat also works well when you have a named location, but in some cases we won't. The specific use case is that the location is automatically generated, e.g., via GPS or other means, and the author can opt to have it automatically added in to the content they create. E.g., a photo and caption from a GPS enabled cellphone. From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Dec 5 11:00:50 2007 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Wed Dec 5 11:00:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo & Operator extension In-Reply-To: <4756DFC1.1000800@acm.org> References: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> <474C5387.1000104@speakeasy.net> <18050cf90711300255t106f2cd8qb32655881a4627fa@mail.gmail.com> <47543026.6010605@premasagar.com> <42EE08A1-C4A7-4FF1-86EA-ED04BFD5E374@ben-ward.co.uk> <09CDCF59-B641-42E6-A194-BC1D9326649B@randomchaos.com> <8907BF9A-44EC-4718-A0CA-F27F33A6885F@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90712031559w7b420b4ercf9e36b669f334a8@mail.gmail.com> <4754FE2B.2020604@acm.org> <0CA781E7-13E9-45CC-9443-F4F89774FE69@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <4756DFC1.1000800@acm.org> Message-ID: <980426D5-7F47-474E-8A94-DB177FDB4D26@theryanking.com> On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:28 AM, John Panzer wrote: > James O'Donnell wrote: >> >> On 4 Dec 2007, at 07:13, John Panzer wrote: >> >>> I've been asked how to handle this case (you have an area, or an >>> inexact location, and want to encode it while providing a >>> friendly human readable but possibly ambiguous short hand name >>> for said place). Is there any existing practices to look at? >>> Secondly, would this be a valid geo encoding 'abbreviation' ? >>> >>> the point under my finger right >>> now >> >> The thing about abbreviations is, the expanded text replaces the >> shortened form, rather than supplementing it. So I'd guess your >> example wouldn't work unless the text 'the point under my finger >> right now' could be replaced by '22.31119;+89.86145' and still >> make sense when read in its larger context. >> >> is probably a safer element to use for encoding lat/long >> positions. > Yes, in context this is really additional annotation, so abbr would > be wrong. Thanks. > > But then is title appropriate if using a span? > > the point under my finger right > now. This won't work with any microformats. The title attribute is only defined to work on the abbr element. > The adr microformat also works well when you have a named location, > but in some cases we won't. The specific use case is that the > location is automatically generated, e.g., via GPS or other means, > and the author can opt to have it automatically added in to the > content they create. E.g., a photo and caption from a GPS enabled > cellphone. Honestly I'd recommend that unless you can put the lat/long in a human-visible spot, just leave it off. -ryan From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 5 13:58:00 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Wed Dec 5 13:58:02 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> Message-ID: <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2007 4:20 AM, Thom Shannon wrote: > Jeremy Keith wrote: > > The spec says that the element should contain "a reference to other > > sources" and even gives an example of citing a person: > I had a look at the specs too and it did seem to make sense. If you're > referring to something someone said then that's clearly a citation. What > if you're just saying they were present at an event? You can't really > cite someone for that. Not unless they said or did something. The CITE element really shouldn't stand alone, as there's an unstated source/target relationship implied in its usage. -- Paul Wilkins From jeremy at adactio.com Wed Dec 5 17:16:23 2007 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Wed Dec 5 17:16:37 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul Wilkins wrote: >> If you're >> referring to something someone said then that's clearly a >> citation. What >> if you're just saying they were present at an event? You can't really >> cite someone for that. >> > > Not unless they said or did something. The CITE element really > shouldn't stand alone, as there's an unstated source/target > relationship implied in its usage. > I don't believe that's true. The cite element can be used when the author is referring to something; not when that that something is doing the referencing. So, for example, if I refer to a book or a film, I'll enclose that inside a cite element. It can stand alone because there is no implied relationship other than "this is an entity": The Usual Suspects Designing with Web Standards I will use that markup even if I'm not quoting or citing anything from that entity. That seems to be perfectly in line with the spec. So the cite element is equally applicable when I'm referring to a person: Tantek ?elik As far as I can tell, the context around the thing/person being referenced is irrelevant. The fact that the entity is being referenced at all is justification enough for the cite element. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 5 19:17:19 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Wed Dec 5 19:17:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2007 2:16 PM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > I don't believe that's true. The cite element can be used when the > author is referring to something; not when that that something is > doing the referencing. So, for example, if I refer to a book or a > film, I'll enclose that inside a cite element. It can stand alone > because there is no implied relationship other than "this is an entity": > > The Usual Suspects > > Designing with Web Standards > > I will use that markup even if I'm not quoting or citing anything > from that entity. That seems to be perfectly in line with the spec. It remains to be asked then, where is the citation? The contents of the CITE element contains the object being cited, so where is the subject? You cannot have a citation without a subject. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?! -- Paul Wilkins From stefan.auditor at erdfisch.de Wed Dec 5 19:18:14 2007 From: stefan.auditor at erdfisch.de (stefan.auditor@erdfisch.de) Date: Wed Dec 5 19:18:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: microformats-discuss Digest, Vol 31, Issue 3 Message-ID: <20071206031814.8427.qmail@km14019.keymachine.de> In der Zeit vom 05.12.2007 bis einschlie?lich 06.12.2007 befinde ich mich nicht im B?ro. Dringende Anfragen richten Sie bitte an info@erdfisch.de, weiterhin erreichen Sie unser B?ro unter +49 180 3471133 300 (0,09 EURO/Min aus dem Festnetz der Dt. Telekom). Selbstverst?ndlich werde ich mich nach meiner R?ckkehr sofort um Ihre Nachricht k?mmern. -- Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Stefan Auditor erdfisch :: internetl?sungen Stefan Auditor, Frank Holldorff und Fabian Lorenzen GbR Internet: http://erdfisch.de E-Mail : info@erdfisch.de Telefon : +49 180 3471133 300 (0,09 EURO/Min) Telefax : +49 180 3471133 301 (0,09 EURO/Min) Mannheimer Str. 281 69123 Heidelberg Drupal Developer - http://drupal.org Mitbetreiber Drupalcenter - http://drupalcenter.de From jeremy at adactio.com Thu Dec 6 02:46:10 2007 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Thu Dec 6 02:46:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> Paul Wilkins wrote: > It remains to be asked then, where is the citation? > The contents of the CITE element contains the object being cited, so > where is the subject? > You cannot have a citation without a subject. > > How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?! But that's not what the spec says at all, as far as I can see. Your interpretation is that you can only use the CITE element if you are citing something *from* a resource (book/film/person, etc.). But I can't find any mention of that in the spec. As far as I can see, the CITE element can (and should) be used when you are *referencing* a resource (book/film/person, etc.) regardless of what the surrounding context is. So in HTML I could say: The film Gone With The Wind contains the line Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. But I could equally say: Gone With The Wind is a film. Or even: Gone With The Wind You seem to be suggesting that only the first example is the correct use of the CITE element. That's not the case. All three are fine. You ask "where is the citation?" That's what the BLOCKQUOTE and Q elements are for. The CITE element is not supposed to be used for citations, it is used for references. That would be a lot clearer if the element were named REFERENCE instead of CITE. I think that, like the ADDRESS element, it is the confusing name choice for the element that it is leading to a lot of misunderstanding. The CITE element is not a CITATION element. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Thu Dec 6 08:11:31 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Thu Dec 6 09:13:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Jeremy's inline friend link pattern References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> Message-ID: Jeremy Keith wrote: > As far as I can see, the CITE element can (and should) be used when you > are *referencing* a resource (book/film/person, etc.) regardless of what > the surrounding context is. > > So in HTML I could say: > The film Gone With The Wind contains the line Frankly my > dear, I don't give a damn. > > But I could equally say: > Gone With The Wind is a film. > > Or even: > Gone With The Wind I think you're taking the meaning of "referencing" a bit too far -- taking it to mean "mentioning", whereas I think the intention of the HTML spec is that it means "including as a reference", which is a somewhat narrower meaning. If your interpretation is right, then it would be equally correct to write:

    Cheese is a food.

    -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 11 days, 22:58.] Sharing Music with Apple iTunes http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/11/28/itunes-sharing/ From jeremy at adactio.com Thu Dec 6 10:20:39 2007 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Thu Dec 6 10:20:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> Message-ID: Toby wrote: > If your interpretation is right, then it would be equally correct > to write: > >

    Cheese is a food.

    That's right. And in some situations, like a food blog, that would be good usage. It all depends on the individual case of course. But yes, just about any noun could potentially be marked up with the CITE element. That doesn't mean that every noun *should* be marked up with the CITE element: the author still needs to exercise judgement. But it is not wrong to mark up a book, film, thing or person with the CITE element... which is what the original question was all about. Given the choice between: Tantek ?elik and Tantek ?elik ...the second option has a little bit more semantic richness. Neither is incorrect though. In the use case which originally kicked off this discussion, mentioning someone in the course of a blog post is most definitely referencing them (even if I'm not quoting from them). Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 6 10:26:54 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Thu Dec 6 10:26:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> Message-ID: <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2007 11:46 PM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > As far as I can see, the > CITE element can (and should) be used when you are *referencing* a > resource (book/film/person, etc.) regardless of what the surrounding > context is. > > So in HTML I could say: > > The film Gone With The Wind contains the line Frankly > my dear, I don't give a damn. Yes, that's fine, you have the relationship of gone with the wind => quotation > But I could equally say: > > Gone With The Wind is a film. You could say it, but you'll be wrong. > Or even: > > Gone With The Wind it makes no sense to have a citation all by itself. As time goes on, people have been using the cite element for more and more inappropriate uses. The developers understand this and have been providing more accurate descriptions of how the CITE element is to be used. HTML 5 says the following http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-cite The cite element represents a citation: the source, or reference, for a quote or statement made in the document. A citation is not a quote (for which the q element is appropriate). This is incorrect usage:

    This is wrong!, said Ian.

    This is the correct way to do it:

    This is correct!, said Ian.

    This is also wrong, because the title and the name are not references or citations:

    My favourite book is The Reality Dysfunction by Peter F. Hamilton.

    This is correct, because even though the source is not quoted, it is cited:

    According to the Wikipedia article on HTML, HTML is defined in formal specifications that were developed and published throughout the 1990s.

    And XHTML 2.0 has this to say http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-text.html#sec_9.2. The cite element contains a citation or a reference to other sources. In the following example, the cite element is used to reference the book from which the quotation is taken: cite as book reference As Gandalf the White said in The Two Towers, "The hospitality of your hall is somewhat lessened of late, Theoden King." cite to reference another specification More information can be found in [XML]. -- Paul Wilkins From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Dec 6 12:52:31 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Dec 6 12:52:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <447BF418-594A-4AD6-B77E-D44411504F52@randomchaos.com> On Dec 6, 2007, at 11:26 AM, Paul Wilkins wrote: > HTML 5 says the following > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-cite HTML 5 isn't necessarily a definitive source on semantics in HTML 4 and XHTML, but in this case, I think it's the reasonable elaboration on what little HTML 4 says, which is "Contains a citation or a reference to other sources." A source is where something comes from, so we have to have that something in order for the referenced object to be a source. That something isn't necessarily a specific quote, but it has to be at least a vague description. For example, I think "Tantek talked about microformats" makes sense because [Tantek] is the source of [talk about microformats]. But "I had lunch with Tantek" doesn't make sense (without additional context) because here the referenced object [Tantek] is not the source of anything. Peace, Scott From Simone.Hindin at ccc.govt.nz Thu Dec 6 19:20:52 2007 From: Simone.Hindin at ccc.govt.nz (Hindin, Simone) Date: Thu Dec 6 19:21:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] vevent question - matching summary In-Reply-To: References: <4AFC7FB5-05E9-4229-8A55-BD0636382C79@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <4E5744ACA0F432439EECAA3424C5251D0A0D5EDF@CCOEXCV01.ccity.biz> Hi Ryan, I had the same problem and it turned out to be a setting in Operator - in the Options - General tab check that you haven't got Remove duplicates ticked - I think it might install ticked as default. Simone Hindin Digital Library Services Christchurch City Libraries p: 03 941 7850 e: libwebteam@ccc.govt.nz w: http://library.christchurch.org.nz/ b: http://cclblog.wordpress.com/ -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Tom Byers Sent: Tuesday, 4 December 2007 9:58 am To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] vevent question - matching summary Hi Ryan, thanks for the help (and the additions to my vocabulary :) ), I'm not on the right computer at the mo but I was roughing it out as this before:
    Things I do in the week
    Date Activity

    December 11th:

    7.30pm to 9.30pm

    Sculpture class: New model, class 1 of 5

    Camden, London

    December 18th:

    7.30pm to 9.30pm

    Sculpture class: New model, class 2 of 5

    Camden, London
    On Dec 3, 2007 7:54 PM, ryan wrote: > > On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Tom Byers wrote: > > > Hi all, I'm trying to implement vevent on a calender. As in most > > people's lives I have events that repeat (weekly classes, etc...) but > > when I use the same summary, operator only chooses the first one - any > > ideas (if this has been asked before, please point me in the right > > direction) > > Operator applies some heuristics to de-dupe microformat instances on > a single page. It sounds like identical SUMMARYs is one of those. > > Can we get a url to this page? > > -ryan > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ********************************************************************** This electronic email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. The views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch City Council. If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the sender and delete. Christchurch City Council http://www.ccc.govt.nz ********************************************************************** From jeremy at adactio.com Fri Dec 7 05:22:30 2007 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Fri Dec 7 05:22:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul Wilkins wrote: > it makes no sense to have a citation all by itself. > > As time goes on, people have been using the cite element for more and > more inappropriate uses. I agree with you there. But the abuse I see is more along the lines of using the CITE element where a Q or BLOCKQUOTE would be more appropriate. > The developers understand this and have been > providing more accurate descriptions of how the CITE element is to be > used. > > HTML 5 says the following Um. That's HTML 5. I'm talking about today's specs. As Scott says: > HTML 5 isn't necessarily a definitive source on semantics in HTML 4 > and XHTML That said, I take your point that using the CITE element to mark up a person/place/thing/object without any context is really pushing it. I think you're right when you say: >> Gone With The Wind is a film. > > You could say it, but you'll be wrong. However, I don't think that every use of the CITE element *requires* an accompanying citation (using Q or BLOQCKQUOTE). I think that Scott is write when he says that context is the key criteria: > A source is where something comes from, so we have to have that > something in order for the referenced object to be a source. That > something isn't necessarily a specific quote, but it has to be at > least a vague description. So, for the case that sparked off this discussion?mentioning people in blog posts?I think the CITE element will often be appropriate: I was chatting with Tantek yesterday. That, in my opinion, is appropriate (though it's certainly on the edge). That would probably be marked up as a hyperlink in a blog post: I was chatting with Tantek yesterday. Then there's the use of ABBR that Thom was talking about for mentioning friends by their first names: I was chatting with Tantek yesterday. Which is easily turned into an hCard: I was chatting with Tantek yesterday. So, quick straw poll: does that look a reasonable use of the CITE element? Does anything think that SPAN would be a better/safer option in this case? I suppose it would probably depend on the rest of the paragraph or blog post but usually you wouldn't mention someone in a blog post without some reason that probably involves referencing them, right? Michael MD wrote: >> The CITE element is not a CITATION element. > no wonder I don't see it used very often -- that is too confusing > for people in the real world! Agreed. It's as confusing as the ADDRESS element. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From hober0 at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 10:18:50 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Fri Dec 7 10:36:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Jeremy's inline friend link pattern References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> <447BF418-594A-4AD6-B77E-D44411504F52@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: Jeremy wrote: > I was chatting with title="Tantek ?elik"> href="http://tantek.com/">Tantek yesterday. > > So, quick straw poll: does that look a reasonable use of the CITE > element? I think it depends on the surrounding text. If the next sentence is "He made a really interesting point about that got me thinking blah blah blah," then I think is entirely appropriate. But if you just say that you had lunch with him and that you ordered the curry, there's not even "a vague description" (in Scott's words) of what you're citing Tantek about. Scott wrote: > A source is where something comes from, so we have to have that > something in order for the referenced object to be a source. That > something isn't necessarily a specific quote, but it has to be at least > a vague description. For example, I think "Tantek talked > about microformats" makes sense because [Tantek] is the source of [talk > about microformats]. But "I had lunch with Tantek" > doesn't make sense (without additional context) because here the > referenced object [Tantek] is not the source of anything. -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Fri Dec 7 11:32:04 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Fri Dec 7 11:32:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18050cf90712071132o32868d60ld67edd58baa7000f@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 8, 2007 2:22 AM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > However, I don't think that every use of the CITE element *requires* > an accompanying citation (using Q or BLOQCKQUOTE). I think that Scott > is write when he says that context is the key criteria: The CITE element doesn't require that the citation be explicitly marked up, but there has to be a citation of some form for the CITE element to be involved. This is right:

    According to the Wikipedia article on HTML, HTML is defined in formal specifications that were developed and published throughout the 1990s.

    This is wrong:

    My favourite book is The Reality Dysfunction by Peter F. Hamilton.

    The above examples are explicit examples that the specifications give to help teach you right from wrong. You will need to convince the working group that created the specifications otherwise, before your desired use is to be considered right. -- Paul Wilkins From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Fri Dec 7 11:37:08 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Fri Dec 7 11:37:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Jeremy's inline friend link pattern In-Reply-To: References: <475673E2.70302@ts0.com> <4756C1D8.2000602@ts0.com> <18050cf90712051358x273582a3v831b59b034222f7b@mail.gmail.com> <18050cf90712051917u2d2d567bsdd08754936d9b7f1@mail.gmail.com> <60291B96-9491-405C-A339-AE7F81B932D5@adactio.com> <18050cf90712061026v22ecb9c7kafb34d3a2f09dfc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18050cf90712071137j7d0333a6g568f61e4cc90709a@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 8, 2007 2:22 AM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > I was chatting with title="Tantek ?elik"> href="http://tantek.com/">Tantek yesterday. > > So, quick straw poll: does that look a reasonable use of the CITE > element? Does anything think that SPAN would be a better/safer option > in this case? I suppose it would probably depend on the rest of the > paragraph or blog post but usually you wouldn't mention someone in a > blog post without some reason that probably involves referencing > them, right? If it is followed by something that was clearly sourced from Tantek then it would be okay. Think about it like this. The CITE element represents the source or reference for a quote or statement. No quote, no statement, no cite. It's as simple as that. -- Paul Wilkins From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Sun Dec 9 08:08:08 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Sun Dec 9 08:08:15 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Re:_=91XHTML=92_references_to_?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: <33DAA2D7-2BB0-425B-A679-CBBF10CF0AA9@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D2D7E14-5AFB-401E-9E15-BF14B8503591@ben-ward.co.uk> <4EE30802-E40C-4D25-8869-9D1592A2B220@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711262337i7b5a54a5sd9cd7ea66a3fe17a@mail.gmail.com> <33DAA2D7-2BB0-425B-A679-CBBF10CF0AA9@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <082141CC-DFE9-4E1B-8A86-5A6275AE954C@ben-ward.co.uk> Got around to making some of these changes today. Actually not as many as I'd expected to. The pages with slightly tweaked references to ?HTML or XHTML? are: [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki? title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=23673 * BenWard * (+5) Making consistant references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread last week. [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki? title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=23675 * BenWard * (-3) Making consistant references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread last week. [[rel-license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel- license&diff=0&oldid=23676 * BenWard * (+6) Making consistent references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread 2007-11-26 [[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=23677 * BenWard * (+5) Making consistent references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread 2007-11-26 [[xfolk]] M http://microformats.org/wiki? title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=23678 * BenWard * (-1) Making consistent references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread 2007-11-26 [[adr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=23679 * BenWard * (+3) Making consistent references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread 2007-11-26 [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki? title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=23680 * BenWard * (-10) Making consistent references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread 2007-11-26 [[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki? title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=23681 * BenWard * (+4) Making consistent references to ?XHTML? and ?HTML? as per uf-discuss thread 2007-11-26 As per the discussion last week, in the first instance these pages now refer to both ?HTML? and ?XHTML? explicitly, and later references are just ?HTML?. The exception to this at the moment is the XOXO spec, which has been written in a very XHTML-centric way from the outset, and may need to be reviewed in relation to how it is actually being published on the web (to see whether we need to accommodate a reality of publishers putting XOXO in HTML documents, not just XHTML). I've also not yet update the ?XHTML Design Principals? template which recurs in most of the above pages. Again, that's a very XHTML centric passage which doesn't accommodate HTML so cleanly and can't be tweaked with find and replace. Any suggestions on changes to those passages are appreciated. Regards, Ben On 27 Nov 2007, at 10:01, Ben Ward wrote: > Right, I'll put this on my to-do list. I don't know how much work > it's going to be yet, but let's say I'll plan to start updating > pages on Friday. That's the rest of the week for anyone else to > object to the change. > > The change I propose is: > ? Update the first mention of ?HTML? or ?XHTML? (or variant) in > a page to ?HTML and XHTML? > ? Update other references to XHTML, (X)HTML or X/HTML to ?HTML? > > Ben From martin at weborganics.co.uk Sun Dec 9 16:33:11 2007 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Sun Dec 9 16:31:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ANN: hAudio-RSS Message-ID: <1197246791.14282.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello all I am pleased to announce hAudio-RSS which uses the hAudio microformat and XSL to produce a RSS2 Podcast that you can play in iTunes, Amarok, songbird, Win Amp, google reader? etc... source: http://weborganics.co.uk/haudio-rss/ transformation: http://tools.weborganics.co.uk/haudio/index.php?id=http://weborganics.co.uk/haudio-rss/ Feed Validator: http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http://tools.weborganics.co.uk/haudio/index.php?id=http://weborganics.co.uk/haudio-rss/ I have left notes in the source file to give hints on how it is done. I will shortly be releasing all the source files and a transformation service that you can just download and drop in the back end of any site using PHP 5+ that will give publishers the ability to perform their own server side transformations and not have to use services like h2A and x2v much like all the other services at http://tools.weborganics.co.uk/ Comments are welcome Best Wishes Martin McEvoy WebOrganics From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Dec 12 10:29:41 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Dec 12 10:31:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [admin] Notice of community ban In-Reply-To: <5C39C54B-03F3-4115-96BC-7FA5C02396B9@allinthehead.com> References: <5C39C54B-03F3-4115-96BC-7FA5C02396B9@allinthehead.com> Message-ID: In message <5C39C54B-03F3-4115-96BC-7FA5C02396B9@allinthehead.com>, Drew McLellan writes >This is an email regarding Andy Mabbett's recent and persistent >negative conduct within the microformats community. Namely: > >* Unpleasant and overly-aggressive communication with members of the >community on both [mf-new] Cite? > and in private email I wasn't aware that my private e-mail was any of your (collective) business; but since you consider that it is, what are you going to do about the person, from this community, who has twice sent me offensive e-mails, suggesting that I seek psychiatric help? >* Engaging in wiki edit wars It takes two (at least) to do so. If I did that (and I note again that no evidence is provided, and no supposed broken rules cited), where are the sanctions against the other party/ies? >* Excessive argumentativeness for the sake of debate If you're going to take actions based on my supposed reasons for doing something (again something uncited and unproven), you're going to need to find someone whose telepathic skills are more reliable than whoever it is you're using at present. Otherwise, such vague accusations might be seen as suggesting that you're inventing arbitrary thought-crimes for reasons which are neither neutral or just. >These are traits he has been warned about before That's a lie. >and for which has been previously banned. As is that. > They are in clear contradiction with the "be nice" guideline: >http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Be_nice No: there is no "clear contradiction", since both that guideline and what I'm accused of a vague and intangible. And in what way is the implication that I'm a "jerk" in compliance with that guideline? >This behaviour continues to be harmful to the community, and therefore, >the admins have concluded there is no other option than to issue Andy >with a further 30 day ban from community participation. Whereby, the partially-anonymous clique which "governs" this initiative proves once again that it is unfit to do so. >With regret, Andy Mabbett, is banned from community participation for a >period of 30 days from today. I regard the expression of regret as totally insincere. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Dec 12 10:29:46 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Dec 12 10:31:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [admin] Notice of community ban In-Reply-To: References: <02c401c811fc$b056f9e0$160da8c0@CThq.corp.srps.com> Message-ID: In message , Tantek ?elik writes >On 10/18/07 8:03 PM, "Steve Robillard" wrote: > >> I don't believe anyone else has been banned, but rather that Andy has been >> banned multiple times, and it appears to have had little effect. > >It did actually help for a while last time, as Andy's emails and behavior >were certainly civil I have - unlike some here - never been uncivil. >for a while (he was last banned for a week back in >July). Unfortunately though, for whatever reason, his behavior lapsed, >which then dragged (drug?) the tone down in the lists, to the point where >many people were made to feel unmotivated to participate. Please explain your "drug" reference. >It's a good question. A lot of us try to be optimists about human nature >and thus keep hoping for the best. This despite the fact that in this case, >this individual has for example been banned from at least one other >wiki-centric community, e.g. Wikipedia, for a year (for a second time). The relevance of that ad hominem comment to this incident is..? (In any case, the person responsible for orchestrating the first ban has since publicly apologised to me for his behaviour (after having been banned himself, for using abusive sock-puppets). The second was described by a neutral observer as "a brutal and vindictive form of coercion".) >I will personally commit to (as I think the other admins will, though I am >not speaking for them) improving the documentation of who the admins are, >and the minimal processes that the admins follow ...tumbleweed passes. [Snip excessive quoting, made in contravention of the community's own guidelines.] -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Dec 12 10:48:53 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Dec 12 10:50:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Solo pursuits and extending Geo Message-ID: A while ago, Tantek Celik relegated "Species" and the "Geo Extension" (and other initiatives), to a "solo pursuits" section of the "exploratory discussions" page: I find this distinction arbitrary and unnecessarily divisive. ==Species== I have restored the "Species" initiative, because there is clearly wider support, not least its implementation in Operator, and on Wikipedia. ==Geo== The support for extending Geo (to include elevation/ altitude; boundaries, routes and trails, and other bodies such as the Moon and Mars) is perhaps less obvious, but there have been comments from several interested parties: I would therefore invite anyone interested in further work to develop Geo in one or more of the above three ways, to express their interest here, and. or on the relevant wiki pages. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Dec 12 11:02:10 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Dec 12 11:03:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Michael Smethurst writes >Just to say that hCalendar is used fairly extensively to describe >broadcasts on bbc.co.uk/programmes here: > >http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/genres/music >http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation >http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qpgr/laston >Having said that it's not been through accessibility testing yet so it >might not be for long... It will be interesting to know the outcome of that testing, in the light of mark-up like: 16:03 and the issues raised here: Who's doing it? -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Dec 12 11:25:31 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Dec 12 11:27:02 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] adr in Operator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Mike Kaply writes >Removing support for an adr by itself in the UI. >Should I remove it completely since 99.9999% of adrs are in hCards? Now that you've done so (in v0.9 beta), there's an issue, because invalid ADRs don't necessarily show up as invalid hCards, and so Operator functions less well as a validator. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Dec 12 11:27:16 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Dec 12 11:29:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Announcement: WebCamp workshop on Social Network Portability In-Reply-To: <474C10E5.6080907@deri.org> References: <474C10E5.6080907@deri.org> Message-ID: In message <474C10E5.6080907@deri.org>, John Breslin writes >I am happy to announce the "Social Network Portability" workshop >(co-located with BlogTalk) to be held in Cork, Ireland on the 2nd March >2008. You can view the wiki page for this event at >http://webcamp.org/SocialNetworkPortability Perhaps you could add some microformats to that page? -- Andy Mabbett From qidydl at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 11:31:16 2007 From: qidydl at gmail.com (David O) Date: Wed Dec 12 11:31:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [admin] Notice of community ban In-Reply-To: References: <02c401c811fc$b056f9e0$160da8c0@CThq.corp.srps.com> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2007 1:29 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >for a while (he was last banned for a week back in > >July). Unfortunately though, for whatever reason, his behavior lapsed, > >which then dragged (drug?) the tone down in the lists, to the point where > >many people were made to feel unmotivated to participate. > > Please explain your "drug" reference. I think he was searching for the proper past tense of "drag" and wasn't sure whether "dragged" or "drug" sounded better. - David From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Dec 12 15:22:52 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Dec 12 15:24:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com>, Jeff McNeill writes >There hasn't been much lately regarding the 'alternates' discussion [...] >Any thoughts? What's the use-case? -- Andy Mabbett From martin at weborganics.co.uk Wed Dec 12 15:49:05 2007 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Wed Dec 12 15:47:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [admin] Notice of community ban In-Reply-To: References: <02c401c811fc$b056f9e0$160da8c0@CThq.corp.srps.com> Message-ID: <1197503345.9917.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 14:31 -0500, David O wrote: > On Dec 12, 2007 1:29 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > >for a while (he was last banned for a week back in > > >July). Unfortunately though, for whatever reason, his behavior lapsed, > > >which then dragged (drug?) the tone down in the lists, to the point where > > >many people were made to feel unmotivated to participate. > > > > Please explain your "drug" reference. > > I think he was searching for the proper past tense of "drag" and > wasn't sure whether "dragged" or "drug" sounded better. > LOL Welcome back Andy ;) > - David > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Thu Dec 13 01:27:31 2007 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Thu Dec 13 01:27:37 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> Aloha Andy, et al, Use cases for alternates could be as follows: 1. Amazon.com page on a book with alternate versions, e.g., http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0789723107/ref=cm_cr_pr_orig_subj 2. TED.com talks, which include links to mp4, zipped mp4 and itunes, e.g., http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/51 3. New York Times, which include links to single-page and print versions of articles, e.g., http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/business/13fed.html In particular, I am seeking a solution that can deal with different filetypes (audio vs. video) as well as content length. Let me include part of the original post: There hasn't been much lately regarding the 'alternates' discussion[1]. It seems that in the HTML spec[2], 'alternate' is meant as something the user can choose between, i.e., style sheets[3], and/or something the browser can try and render in a given rank order, i.e., objects[4]. The suggested use of
      for preference and
        for no preference is clever[1]. (this example modified from the wiki entry[1])
        1. MP3
        2. WAV
        3. MOV
        -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ On 12/12/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com>, > Jeff McNeill writes > > >There hasn't been much lately regarding the 'alternates' discussion > [...] > >Any thoughts? > > What's the use-case? > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Thu Dec 13 01:27:00 2007 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Thu Dec 13 01:55:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: Cc-ing (hopefully) interested bbc parties Hello Andy Long time no hear On 12/12/07 19:02, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message , Michael > Smethurst writes > >> Just to say that hCalendar is used fairly extensively to describe >> broadcasts on bbc.co.uk/programmes > >> Having said that it's not been through accessibility testing yet so it >> might not be for long... > > It will be interesting to know the outcome of that testing, in the light > of mark-up like: > > > 16:03 > > > and the issues raised here: > > I concur wholeheartedly with your concerns. The markup is definitely iffy from both semantic and accessibility angles. Do you have a better suggestion for how to mark up a set of broadcasts without repeatedly repeating the full date(s)? As ever we're happy to receive assistance I'm also looking forward to hearing the accessibility testing results. To the best of my knowledge it's the first time ufs have been used in anger on bbc.co.uk and the bbc semantic markup standards [1] and accessibility standards [2] have nothing to say on the subject Personally i've been pushing for the bbc to adopt rdf-a for adding semantics to html but without operator / promised firefox support for basic functionality (add to address book / add to calendar) a decision was made to stick with ufs for now So I'd be perfectly happy if the accessibility testing said no, no, no and we could get explicit guidance from the bbc standards on the abbr design pattern / backing for rdf-a > > Who's doing it? The markup or the testing? The markup was from Phil Gyford [3] who being both very talented and very clever also expressed doubts. The testing will be done by Gareth Ford Williams [4] We'll let you know how it pans out [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/newmedia/technical/semantic_markup.shtml [2] http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/newmedia/accessibility/ [3] http://www.gyford.com/ [4] gratuitous plug for backstage accessibility podcast: http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/12/podcast_accessi.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From rob at sanchothefat.com Thu Dec 13 03:02:46 2007 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke) Date: Thu Dec 13 03:03:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Michael > Smethurst writes > > >> Just to say that hCalendar is used fairly extensively to describe >> broadcasts on bbc.co.uk/programmes here: >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/genres/music >> > > >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation >> > > >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qpgr/laston >> > > >> Having said that it's not been through accessibility testing yet so it >> might not be for long... >> > > It will be interesting to know the outcome of that testing, in the light > of mark-up like: > > > 16:03 > > > and the issues raised here: > > I know it defeats the object semantically speaking but what are the other arguments against putting the machine-readable date/time in the class attribute and do they outweigh the gain in accessibility? For example, what's wrong with this: 16:03 Since no solution is ideal with the current HTML flavours people use is there any work being done with regard to the new HTML specs like HTML5? A element or data="" attribute for example? -Rob From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Thu Dec 13 07:19:30 2007 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Thu Dec 13 07:25:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> References: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> Robert O'Rourke wrote: > I know it defeats the object semantically speaking but what are the > other arguments against putting the machine-readable date/time in the > class attribute and do they outweigh the gain in accessibility? > > For example, what's wrong with this: > > > 16:03 > Leaving aside the immediate question of whether using class to hide data is a good idea: 1. 16:03 isn't an abbreviation for 12 September 2007. That's /additional/ information. So that should be a SPAN not an ABBR. 2. Information in TITLE is hard for humans to access (for example, with just the keyboard, or on an iPhone). So it's best to keep important information, like 12th December 2007, implicit or explicit in the main content. 3. If 12th December 2007 is made implicit or explicit, then the TITLE is superfluous and distracting: http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/ http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/better-connected/better-connected-better-results-top-tips-for-titles/ > Since no solution is ideal with the current HTML flavours people use is > there any work being done with regard to the new HTML specs like HTML5? > A element or data="" attribute for example? Given that the set of data types is potentially infinite, I'd like to see an extensible method for hiding machine-readable data in the next version of HTML. The current HTML5 draft, doesn't have an extensible method, but it does include dedicated TIME and METER elements: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-phrase.html#the-time http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-phrase.html#the-meter Caveat: a flaw doomed to irritate historians, scientists, space opera authors, and non-Christians everywhere is that the proposed TIME element cannot represent times before 0 AD or after 9999 AD: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-common1.html#dates The current XHTML2 draft doesn't have an equivalent for TIME and METER, but it does have a general way of hiding machine-readable data, using the content attribute: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-metaAttributes.html#adef_metaAttributes_content -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Dec 13 08:51:52 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Dec 13 08:51:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Thu, December 13, 2007 09:27, Jeff McNeill wrote: > Use cases for alternates could be as follows: [...] Thank you. That explains what "alternates" are; but not how the proposed microformat would be /used/. In other words, what would a user agent *do* with them? -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Thu Dec 13 09:11:14 2007 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Thu Dec 13 09:11:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <519fa62f0712130911w221d3ec6v9b38dbaf1d519478@mail.gmail.com> Hello Microformaters, * A user-agent could at the least identify one or more alternate formats for the current item or a linked item. * It could also identify the order of preference of alternates. * This could be used by microformat-aware search to provide search result links to alternates. * This could also be used to support mirror lists (instead of alternate formats, simply alternate locations), this could then be used by a user agent to download/retrieve by picking from the top of the preferred list or among a list of non-preferred (unordered) locations. * It may be possible for a user-agent to be aware of a format preference in the case of alternate formats or application support, such as preference for certain kinds of media readers, e.g., iTunes itpc:// links vs. mp4 downloads. Let me know if this answers the question. Not quite sure the format/content being looked for in terms of user-agent use. Cheers, -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ On 12/13/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > On Thu, December 13, 2007 09:27, Jeff McNeill wrote: > > > Use cases for alternates could be as follows: > > [...] > > Thank you. That explains what "alternates" are; but not how the proposed > microformat would be /used/. In other words, what would a user agent *do* > with them? > > -- > Andy Mabbett > ** via webmail ** > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From rob at sanchothefat.com Thu Dec 13 09:40:47 2007 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke) Date: Thu Dec 13 09:44:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> References: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <47616E9F.9070600@sanchothefat.com> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > Robert O'Rourke wrote: > >> I know it defeats the object semantically speaking but what are the >> other arguments against putting the machine-readable date/time in the >> class attribute and do they outweigh the gain in accessibility? >> >> For example, what's wrong with this: >> >> >> 16:03 >> > > Leaving aside the immediate question of whether using class to hide > data is a good idea: I understand that microformats are about keeping the data visible but 2007-12-12T16:03:00Z is no good to humans. The data is still visible to machines and as far as I know it's there for the machine's benefit. > > 1. 16:03 isn't an abbreviation for 12 September 2007. That's > /additional/ information. So that should be a SPAN not an ABBR. Sure I understand, it was just an example based on what was in TITLE, so you're saying 16:03 isn't an abbreviation for 2007-12-12T16:03:00Z either?. Ignoring the '12 December 2007' bit would it still be an ABBR do you think? Seems a bit superfluous to treat it as an abbreviation at all if that's the case. Taking the example of a blog post there is a context for date and time so if 16:03 appeared there a human could figure out it was on that day. A machine could work it out from the information in CLASS. It seems like an impossible situation to get right... > > 2. Information in TITLE is hard for humans to access (for example, > with just the keyboard, or on an iPhone). So it's best to keep > important information, like 12th December 2007, implicit or explicit > in the main content. > > 3. If 12th December 2007 is made implicit or explicit, then the TITLE > is superfluous and distracting: > I agree with these points, so basically ABBR is the wrong element in this case because the date/time in full is given or implied. Could it be argued then that the machine-readable date-time belongs in CLASS on a SPAN? >> Since no solution is ideal with the current HTML flavours people use >> is there any work being done with regard to the new HTML specs like >> HTML5? A element or data="" attribute for example? > > Given that the set of data types is potentially infinite, I'd like to > see an extensible method for hiding machine-readable data in the next > version of HTML. > > The current HTML5 draft, doesn't have an extensible method, but it > does include dedicated TIME and METER elements: > > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-phrase.html#the-time > > > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-phrase.html#the-meter > > > Caveat: a flaw doomed to irritate historians, scientists, space opera > authors, and non-Christians everywhere is that the proposed TIME > element cannot represent times before 0 AD or after 9999 AD: > > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-common1.html#dates > > > The current XHTML2 draft doesn't have an equivalent for TIME and > METER, but it does have a general way of hiding machine-readable data, > using the content attribute: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-metaAttributes.html#adef_metaAttributes_content The XHTML2 method gets my vote then, unless of course that flaw is worked out. What a palaver... > > -- > Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis > Thankyou for the links and response Benjamin, -Rob From rob at sanchothefat.com Thu Dec 13 09:44:41 2007 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke) Date: Thu Dec 13 09:45:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <47616F89.7060104@sanchothefat.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > On Thu, December 13, 2007 09:27, Jeff McNeill wrote: > > >> Use cases for alternates could be as follows: >> > > [...] > > Thank you. That explains what "alternates" are; but not how the proposed > microformat would be /used/. In other words, what would a user agent *do* > with them? > Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you could tell your feed-reader what format you prefer and it would grab the right file. That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone who does podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats. From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Dec 13 10:01:21 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Dec 13 10:01:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <47616F89.7060104@sanchothefat.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <47616F89.7060104@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20712131001h1e5c5189j9987fd84cabc9db7@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 13, 2007 12:44 PM, Robert O'Rourke wrote: > > Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you could tell your > feed-reader what format you prefer and it would grab the right file. > That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone who does > podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats. > This is exactly why it was created, though the project it was associated with at the time faltered. I think this is more like hItem -- the research is done (I believe) -- and just waiting the day it will be needed elsewhere. I don't particularly think it's worth pursuing on it's own. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From angus at pobox.com Thu Dec 13 11:32:39 2007 From: angus at pobox.com (Angus McIntyre) Date: Thu Dec 13 11:32:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: <47616E9F.9070600@sanchothefat.com> References: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> <47616E9F.9070600@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <3456.66.17.182.210.1197574359.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> On Thu, December 13, 2007 12:40 pm, Robert O'Rourke wrote: > ... Could it be argued then that the machine-readable date-time > belongs in CLASS on a SPAN? It looks to me as if ISO-8601 dates would not be valid classnames, due to the presence of colons and '+' signs. However, I may be wrong about that. Even if that isn't the case, I have an aesthetic resistance to using "class" for something that very clearly isn't a class. That seems to me even uglier than using the "title" attribute of "abbr". I'd also wonder about user-agent efficiency: a page with 100 dates would send the agent into its in-memory representation of the stylesheet 100 times to look for a class definition that it will never find. That feels wrong, although I'd need to show that it actually exacted a noticeable performance penalty on some platform for it to be taken seriously as an objection. Using the 'id' of the span is probably out too: if you have simultaneous events, you get non-unique ids in your page. >> Given that the set of data types is potentially infinite, I'd like to >> see an extensible method for hiding machine-readable data in the next >> version of HTML. A 'data' attribute or equivalent might be nice to have. Unfortunately, we can't turn the problem on its head and, instead of looking for exploitable attributes in the current spec, try to find something that would be both machine-parseable and human-friendly to put in our "title" attributes. While you might be able to come up with something in one language that is easy to parse and sounds sane when read out by a screen reader, you'll come unstuck the first time your parser has to read a date in a language it doesn't know. "title" on "abbr" (or "span") looks like the least bad of a set of bad choices. Angus From angus at pobox.com Thu Dec 13 11:40:32 2007 From: angus at pobox.com (Angus McIntyre) Date: Thu Dec 13 11:40:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <47616F89.7060104@sanchothefat.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <47616F89.7060104@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <3490.66.17.182.210.1197574832.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> On Thu, December 13, 2007 12:44 pm, Robert O'Rourke wrote: > Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you could tell your > feed-reader what format you prefer and it would grab the right file. > That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone who does > podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats. We do, 'we' being my $DAYJOB at http://blip.tv/. I've actually been following this thread with interest because our pages currently contain a list of the alternate formats available for any given post. Some of our show creators make their episodes available in five or six different formats. Take a look, for example, at: http://blip.tv/file/509978/ In the bottom-right of that page you'll see a list of the different formats available for download. Unless I'm misreading what 'alternates' is supposed to be, that's a real-world example where it could be applied and - because we're microformats enthusiasts - certainly would be. Angus From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Thu Dec 13 13:17:33 2007 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Thu Dec 13 13:17:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <3490.66.17.182.210.1197574832.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <47616F89.7060104@sanchothefat.com> <3490.66.17.182.210.1197574832.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> Message-ID: <519fa62f0712131317x2edb9325w4b676935db4eb220@mail.gmail.com> Aloha, Interesting that alternates was brainstormed in terms of hItem as mentioned previously in the thread, but also could and perhaps should initially apply to citation. If I understand the citation discussion at http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09#Summary an alternate would be a reference and could therefore be a part of the citation discussion. I appreciate the comment that description could be a superset of reference, but need not be determined by the reference (citation) mf. -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ On 12/13/07, Angus McIntyre wrote: > On Thu, December 13, 2007 12:44 pm, Robert O'Rourke wrote: > > Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you could tell your > > feed-reader what format you prefer and it would grab the right file. > > That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone who does > > podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats. > > We do, 'we' being my $DAYJOB at http://blip.tv/. > > I've actually been following this thread with interest because our pages > currently contain a list of the alternate formats available for any given > post. Some of our show creators make their episodes available in five or > six different formats. Take a look, for example, at: > > http://blip.tv/file/509978/ > > In the bottom-right of that page you'll see a list of the different > formats available for download. Unless I'm misreading what 'alternates' is > supposed to be, that's a real-world example where it could be applied and > - because we're microformats enthusiasts - certainly would be. > > Angus > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From joshuagay at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 16:57:14 2007 From: joshuagay at gmail.com (Joshua Gay) Date: Thu Dec 13 16:57:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] CSS archive Message-ID: First time here. Hope this is on-topic! Sorry if it is not :-) ##Short version I was thinking that it would be nice to have a page on the Wiki that collects CSS templates for creating and displaying microformats. ##Long version I'm putting together some HTML-forms that people can fill out and produce an hReview. In my case, it's for reviewing educational content. I want people to be able to add a one-line of JavaScript to their site so that they can either have a static-looking form on their site, or a dynamic "div-window pop-up" (call it what you will). I want the form to know that it is ultimately 1) producing a review in the form of an hReview microformat, and 2) it will be aggregated onto other sites. To let people know about Microformats and hReview, I thought it would be neat to put the microformats logo in the corner of the form with a link to microformats.com -- or perhaps linking specifically to the about page for hReview. I thought it would be cool if there was some standard CSS templates for people to use. What do people think of sharing their CSS templates for microformat forms and displays? Does this run contrary to the beautiful, simple, "the semantic web is already here" message that microformats carry? -- that is, bringing in ugly style issues :-) Joshua Gay -- Free Software Foundation [http://fsf.org] Textbook Revolution [http://textbookrevolution.org] One Laptop per Child [http://laptop.org] Free Textbook Project [http://freetextbookproject.org] Transparent Federal Budget [http://transparentfederalbudget.com] From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Fri Dec 14 01:01:54 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Fri Dec 14 01:02:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> References: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2007 3:19 PM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > Robert O'Rourke wrote: > 1. 16:03 isn't an abbreviation for 12 September 2007. That's > /additional/ information. So that should be a SPAN not an ABBR. I'd disagree with this. 16:03 in the context of your original page *will* refer to 16:03 on a specific day (I'm finding it hard to think of a non-contrived example where it wouldn't) - it's just abbreviated to 16:03. A human would gather that information from context but it's more explicit in the machine-readable version. -Ciaran McNulty From thom at ts0.com Fri Dec 14 02:14:02 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Fri Dec 14 02:14:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN syntax question Message-ID: <4762576A.5010502@ts0.com> I've just installed a new blogging platform, the blogroll supports XFN out of the box which is nice. I just noticed in the source it's writing it like this rel="contact;friend ;met;co-worker" There's no mention of using ; as a seperator in the XFN specs. I just wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 02:26:39 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Dec 14 02:26:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN syntax question In-Reply-To: <4762576A.5010502@ts0.com> References: <4762576A.5010502@ts0.com> Message-ID: On 14/12/2007, Thom Shannon wrote: > I've just installed a new blogging platform, the blogroll supports XFN > out of the box which is nice. I just noticed in the source it's writing > it like this rel="contact;friend ;met;co-worker" > > There's no mention of using ; as a seperator in the XFN specs. I just > wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. You're right. It oughta be space seperated. Which blogging platform is doing it that way? -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Fri Dec 14 02:34:42 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Fri Dec 14 02:34:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN syntax question In-Reply-To: <4762576A.5010502@ts0.com> References: <4762576A.5010502@ts0.com> Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2007 10:14 AM, Thom Shannon wrote: > I've just installed a new blogging platform, the blogroll supports XFN > out of the box which is nice. I just noticed in the source it's writing > it like this rel="contact;friend ;met;co-worker" > > There's no mention of using ; as a seperator in the XFN specs. I just > wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. XFN just mentions using multiple rel values for complex relationships, and rel values are space-separated so I don't think that is valid XFN. -Ciaran McNulty From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 02:43:13 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Dec 14 02:43:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] CSS archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14/12/2007, Joshua Gay wrote: > First time here. Hope this is on-topic! Sorry if it is not :-) > > ##Short version > > I was thinking that it would be nice to have a page on the Wiki that > collects CSS templates for creating and displaying microformats. Hi. Well, just to throw an alternative view on this - I might be concerned that supplying CSS templates for microformats might lead people to believe that microformats *must* be written in a very specific way/order. I think you could do this, but with the clear explanation that the mark-up that goes with the CSS (since you'd have to make certain assumptions*) is simply a suggested way of marking up that piece of information. Pitching it more in a way of "these are some ready to go snippets and styles to get you started". Does that make sense? (* ... to make anything particularly pretty for a more complex example like hReview - I guess stuff like making XFN links look a certain way would be easier) -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 02:44:00 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Dec 14 02:44:02 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN syntax question In-Reply-To: References: <4762576A.5010502@ts0.com> Message-ID: On 14/12/2007, Ciaran McNulty wrote: > On Dec 14, 2007 10:14 AM, Thom Shannon wrote: > > I've just installed a new blogging platform, the blogroll supports XFN > > out of the box which is nice. I just noticed in the source it's writing > > it like this rel="contact;friend ;met;co-worker" > > > > There's no mention of using ; as a seperator in the XFN specs. I just > > wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. > > XFN just mentions using multiple rel values for complex relationships, > and rel values are space-separated so I don't think that is valid XFN. The HTML spec also explicitly states that rel values should be space separated. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From rob at sanchothefat.com Fri Dec 14 03:46:44 2007 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke) Date: Fri Dec 14 03:47:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Citation and alternates-brainstorming In-Reply-To: <3490.66.17.182.210.1197574832.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> References: <519fa62f0710261110naec130dmc869426a6062c706@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0712130127ref376ai107c9630b6b678fa@mail.gmail.com> <2636.80.249.57.38.1197564712.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <47616F89.7060104@sanchothefat.com> <3490.66.17.182.210.1197574832.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> Message-ID: <47626D24.9080400@sanchothefat.com> Angus McIntyre wrote: > On Thu, December 13, 2007 12:44 pm, Robert O'Rourke wrote: > >> Perhaps in the case of a podcast or video blog you could tell your >> feed-reader what format you prefer and it would grab the right file. >> That's one possibility but I don't know of anyone who does >> podcasts/video blogs in multiple formats. >> > > We do, 'we' being my $DAYJOB at http://blip.tv/. > > I've actually been following this thread with interest because our pages > currently contain a list of the alternate formats available for any given > post. Some of our show creators make their episodes available in five or > six different formats. Take a look, for example, at: > > http://blip.tv/file/509978/ > > In the bottom-right of that page you'll see a list of the different > formats available for download. Unless I'm misreading what 'alternates' is > supposed to be, that's a real-world example where it could be applied and > - because we're microformats enthusiasts - certainly would be. > > Angus > Nice, do you think you could convince your boss (assuming you're not) to conduct a survey of your users to see what feed-readers they typically use? My money would be on iTunes but I don't know whether a preferred format would be necessary there. What file types can an iPod handle? And does iTunes already give people the option to set a preference? I wonder if this is a case where should be used in the feed, rather than a microformat on the page. If there was no feed and sticking with the example of iTunes we'd have to convince them to let people point it at a web page to parse out the files and the preferred format from the alternates uF... Alternates would also be a good extension for hAtom also. -Rob From tom at tommorris.org Fri Dec 14 08:03:52 2007 From: tom at tommorris.org (Tom Morris) Date: Fri Dec 14 08:03:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] CSS archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2007 10:43 AM, Frances Berriman wrote: > On 14/12/2007, Joshua Gay wrote: > > First time here. Hope this is on-topic! Sorry if it is not :-) > > > > ##Short version > > > > I was thinking that it would be nice to have a page on the Wiki that > > collects CSS templates for creating and displaying microformats. > > Hi. > > Well, just to throw an alternative view on this - I might be concerned > that supplying CSS templates for microformats might lead people to > believe that microformats *must* be written in a very specific > way/order. > > I think you could do this, but with the clear explanation that the > mark-up that goes with the CSS (since you'd have to make certain > assumptions*) is simply a suggested way of marking up that piece of > information. Pitching it more in a way of "these are some ready to go > snippets and styles to get you started". > I think it may make more sense to put up a list of 'interesting' examples in the wild for each microformat - where, for instance, they are being used in interesting, new, innovative or stylish ways. Perhaps a 'microformats gallery' showing uses that are pushing the boundaries of recombining microformats in interesting ways or styling or scripting them in interesting ways. The idea of the original poster is good, but, as you say, it needs to be broader than simply the CSS and styling. The idea of a gallery would be to show authors that through using microformats along with good markup practice, CSS and JavaScript you can do interesting or unexpected things. This is something that John Allsopp's done in the Microformats book. As to how we implement such a gallery, I'm not sure. Examples in the wild pages benefit from being just a big list, where as a gallery may not be the best thing to host on a wiki. Perhaps someone who thinks they have good judgment and taste on these sort of things might want to start one. Maybe we could start with something fun like a "most beautiful hCard" competition. Winner gets a mince pie and some linklove. :) -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From rob at sanchothefat.com Fri Dec 14 05:15:57 2007 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke) Date: Fri Dec 14 08:20:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: References: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <4762820D.8090605@sanchothefat.com> Ciaran McNulty wrote: > On Dec 13, 2007 3:19 PM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis > wrote: > >> Robert O'Rourke wrote: >> 1. 16:03 isn't an abbreviation for 12 September 2007. That's >> /additional/ information. So that should be a SPAN not an ABBR. >> > > That was Benjamin's comment not mine. I suggested a human readable TITLE including the full date aswell as 16:03 and putting the machine-readable date format into the CLASS attribute but that was also a bad idea (too much accessibility etc...). That said I think it's better than putting the machine readable date/time format in the TITLE. Surely the parsers should be better able to figure that out from the human readable date and time and leave 2007-12-12T16:03:00Z out altogether? I know of at least one Perl module that does this [1] > I'd disagree with this. 16:03 in the context of your original page > *will* refer to 16:03 on a specific day (I'm finding it hard to think > of a non-contrived example where it wouldn't) - it's just abbreviated > to 16:03. A human would gather that information from context but it's > more explicit in the machine-readable version. > > That was exactly my point when I wrote my example down. If putting machine-readable information in TITLE isn't good then perhaps it was a reasonable alternative re. accessibility, but of course there are many arguments either way. To quote Angus: > "title" on "abbr" (or "span") looks like the least bad of a set of bad > choices. [1] http://search.cpan.org/~gbarr/TimeDate-1.16/lib/Date/Parse.pm From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Fri Dec 14 06:06:37 2007 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Fri Dec 14 08:51:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcalendar in bbc.co.uk/programmes In-Reply-To: References: <3EdnIngyADYHFwQ9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <47611156.9030107@sanchothefat.com> <47614D82.6000600@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <47628DED.9010506@googlemail.com> Ciaran McNulty wrote: > On Dec 13, 2007 3:19 PM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis > wrote: >> Robert O'Rourke wrote: >> 1. 16:03 isn't an abbreviation for 12 September