From kevinmarks at mac.com Thu Feb 1 02:36:03 2007 From: kevinmarks at mac.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Thu Feb 1 02:36:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers In-Reply-To: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:25 PM, Karl Dubost wrote: > At first, I say ?cool, very cool!?. Then, taking a step back, > I think what about the documents which have been created for the > last 15 years before microformats effort existed. These documents > contain class names which are probably and most certainly very > similar to some values defined by microformats community. Karl, can you document instances of use of 'vcard', 'vevent', 'hfeed,' 'hresume', 'hreview' etc before microformats defined them? Very similar isn't an issue; exactly identical is. From laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it Thu Feb 1 03:02:28 2007 From: laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it (Goix Laurent Walter) Date: Thu Feb 1 03:02:37 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ideally we could end up one global Presence protocol, but SIMPLE and XMPP are already competing in different worlds...and their not using the same concepts for moods and activities... Anyway, the suggestion of using tags for representing mood is the least that we can do, but it's very hard to hook up to semantics and know that "happy" actually means that the blogger felt "happy". Using the href as way of representing semantics is a very loose approach since it means that all should use the same link (that somehow represents a concept semantically), which is quite hard to achieve, if we want some crawler or plugin to parse the 'mood' information. Instead, having a specific microformat would intrinsically add semantics to the word... walter -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Colin Barrett Sent: mercoled? 31 gennaio 2007 18.57 To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:26 AM, Sam Sethi wrote: > Personally I hope XMPP becomes the interoperable standard for > presence and > then we an build apps on top of this? Twitter, Gmail and Joost are > all using > XMPP and this potentially will allow me to set my presence, mood and > status > in one app and have it ripple through to the others. I sure hope so. As an IM client developer (I work on Adium in my free time), I would absolutely love it if XMPP were used more -- it's an open standard which helps a lot during protocol implementation. It's not quite as nice as it could be, since XMPP is by definition highly extensible and it's feature set is vast. Trying to develop against a large, moving standard is not the most fun thing to do -- although it's a different type of not-fun from picking apart OSCAR packets. ;) Investigating embedding microformats into XMPP is something that people have talked a lot about, but nobody has really done. As usual, it's those darn existing implementations that we shouldn't break that get in the way of progress ;) -Colin (FWIW, there is/was an effort to develop a framework on OS X[1] for unified presence and messaging on that desktop, but development has sputtered and it's not really moving forward). [1] http://chatkit.net _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by replying to webmaster@telecomitalia.it. Thank you www.telecomitalia.it -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 04:13:18 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Feb 1 04:13:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/02/07, Goix Laurent Walter wrote: > Anyway, the suggestion of using tags for representing mood is the least that we can do, but it's very hard to hook up to semantics and know that "happy" actually means that the blogger felt "happy". Using the href as way of representing semantics is a very loose approach since it means that all should use the same link (that somehow represents a concept semantically), which is quite hard to achieve, On a philosophical note - that assumes your experience of happy is my experience of happy. :) And yeah, I agree, it is hard to achieve. But for the specific problem of "mood", an ultimately objective topic, I think the ambiguity of the actual meaning of a specific mood is acceptable. Although, I think I missed your point first time I read it, so going back to the topic at hand - would something like happy be better? -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Feb 1 04:36:46 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Feb 1 04:36:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > If I have a parser that only knows (and only cares about) the rel-tag > format, it will be confused by people that use rel-tag for the category > property in hCard. It seems unreasonable that every microformat should > have to know about every other microformat, especially when they are nested. Can I ask what the confusion is? If I have a hcard with a rel-tag indicating 'football' in that hCard, then the naive interpretation that 'this page has something on it to do with football' that your parser will take from it is probably correct. -Ciaran McNulty From laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it Thu Feb 1 06:25:40 2007 From: laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it (Goix Laurent Walter) Date: Thu Feb 1 06:25:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [snip] Although, I think I missed your point first time I read it, so going back to the topic at hand - would something like happy be better? [walter] i believe if no one is interested in a hMood, or hPresence, that would be my fallback choice, since this is already implementable. I would have hoped for some more structure and semantics, but it may not gather enough interest for the time being. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by replying to webmaster@telecomitalia.it. Thank you www.telecomitalia.it -------------------------------------------------------------------- From karl at w3.org Thu Feb 1 07:09:31 2007 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Thu Feb 1 07:09:43 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers In-Reply-To: References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> Message-ID: <39DEB0F6-C124-4A17-B8C9-FC44D7EF252F@w3.org> Le 1 f?vr. 2007 ? 19:36, Kevin Marks a ?crit : > On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:25 PM, Karl Dubost wrote: >> At first, I say ?cool, very cool!?. Then, taking a step >> back, I think what about the documents which have been created for >> the last 15 years before microformats effort existed. These >> documents contain class names which are probably and most >> certainly very similar to some values defined by microformats >> community. > > Karl, can you document instances of use of 'vcard', 'vevent', > 'hfeed,' 'hresume', 'hreview' etc before microformats defined them? Agreed on that. Notice that you selected some specific class names. > Very similar isn't an issue; exactly identical > is._______________________________________________ What I'm stressing out is that some class names if they trigger some UI behaviour will indeed make troubles. hCalendar: "description", "summary", "category", "location", "status", "last-modified" hCard: "adr", "street-address", "email", "geo", etc. and plenty others. You seem to have missed the bit where I was saying that any mechanisms for switching being a specific class surrounding class names, a profile URI attribute, etc would be fine. In my pages for example, I have started to change my instances of title for titre, and author to auteur, because I do not want to have to trigger something I didn't want. See it from a CSS point of view: * The owner of the page can choose the CSS properties associated to a series of class names. * The reader can override properties with his/her own stylesheet. * The browser does not trigger a style by itself without people choosing it. If you read carefully my message, I'm not saying "bad", I'm saying "be careful". -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From charles.roper at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 07:31:50 2007 From: charles.roper at gmail.com (Charles Roper) Date: Thu Feb 1 07:32:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process In-Reply-To: References: <8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Scott and Colin, many thanks for your replies; your feedback is much appreciated. On 31/01/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > So the important question is: what will it take to > get publishers publishing the kind of species markup you'd like to see? That's a great question. I guess it's harder for publishers to see the benefit of species for their end users than it is for hCard, hReview, hCalendar et al. I mean, it's fairly apparent what the benefit, or application, of these may be, but with species it's not so obvious. But there are also uFs that aren't so obvious: XOXO, rel-tag, XFN spring to mind. The actual end uses for these seem (to me, at least) rather less immediately clear, but they're valuable nonetheless. Having said this, I'm intrigued as to why no one has answered Mike Schinkel's question on the XOXO faq: http://snipurl.com/18yvu, as it seems like a question worth answering; I'd certainly like to know the answer to that one. :) > The "cowpaths" here is the data. Microformats, the > "paving," is the standardized markup. If the markup were already > standardized, there would be no need for microformats. But if the > data isn't already commonly published, it doesn't matter how nice the > markup is. Ah-ha! That's the crucial point I was missing; thanks for clearing it up in my mind. So with species, the cowpaths are simply the variety of ways in which a species name is published on a page. The paving is the standardised markup we create to wrap around those instances. That being the case, and given the copious quantity of examples on the examples page: http://microformats.org/wiki/species-examples And examples regrouped: http://microformats.org/wiki/species-examples-regrouped What does the community feel should be the focus for species at present? Now that I know that the analysis of existing practice is about the existing *content* rather than existing *markup*, I'm less inclined to say the existing proposal is *over*complex. Sure, it looks complex to the untrained eye because the taxonomic hierarchy *is* complex, but then so is the full hCard spec. My own view is that because species is an extraction of the existing Linnaen taxonomic hierarchy ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linnaen_taxonomy ... its complexity is justified, surely? I'm still able to be persuaded either way on this one, though, should a compelling argument arise. Cheers, Charles -- Charles Roper www.sxbrc.org.uk From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Feb 1 07:32:22 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Feb 1 07:32:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers In-Reply-To: <39DEB0F6-C124-4A17-B8C9-FC44D7EF252F@w3.org> References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> <39DEB0F6-C124-4A17-B8C9-FC44D7EF252F@w3.org> Message-ID: Hi Karl On 1 Feb 2007, at 15:09, Karl Dubost wrote: > hCalendar: "description", "summary", "category", "location", > "status", "last-modified" > hCard: "adr", "street-address", "email", "geo", etc. > and plenty others. > > You seem to have missed the bit where I was saying that any > mechanisms for switching being a specific class surrounding class > names, a profile URI attribute, etc would be fine. > I'm not sure I see the problem here. Those class names are indeed generic and used all over the web, but they should only trigger user interface enhancements when they are children of ?vcard?, ?vevent?, ?hatom?, ?hatom? elements. UI would surely only respond to valid and complete microformats on a page, not the sub-parts of them. > In my pages for example, I have started to change my instances of > title for titre, and author to auteur, because I do not want to > have to trigger something I didn't want. Again, unless I've missed something in the above, that isn't necessary as those title and author class names are children of an appropriate microformat parent element, so would be ignored by a microformats parser. Please could you elaborate if I've misunderstood the implications of your concern. Kind regards, Ben From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 1 07:33:28 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 1 07:33:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers In-Reply-To: <39DEB0F6-C124-4A17-B8C9-FC44D7EF252F@w3.org> References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> <39DEB0F6-C124-4A17-B8C9-FC44D7EF252F@w3.org> Message-ID: <21e523c20702010733w25ec4dc8k46fd405901fea0d0@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/07, Karl Dubost wrote: > > Le 1 f?vr. 2007 ? 19:36, Kevin Marks a ?crit : > > On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:25 PM, Karl Dubost wrote: > >> At first, I say "cool, very cool!". Then, taking a step > >> back, I think what about the documents which have been created for > >> the last 15 years before microformats effort existed. These > >> documents contain class names which are probably and most > >> certainly very similar to some values defined by microformats > >> community. > > > > Karl, can you document instances of use of 'vcard', 'vevent', > > 'hfeed,' 'hresume', 'hreview' etc before microformats defined them? > > Agreed on that. > Notice that you selected some specific class names. The specific class names are "root" class names. Non-root class names (e.g. "title") only make "microformats sense" if they're under the DOM tree of a root class name. The root class names have been chosen not to conflict with known existing uses [1][2]. Regards, etc... David [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles#Unique_Root_Class_Names [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#root_class_name -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From rob at sanchothefat.com Thu Feb 1 07:37:49 2007 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Thu Feb 1 07:38:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] mime types and microformats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C2094D.9040405@sanchothefat.com> Hi there, I have a question regarding mime types and microformat parsing, an area i find thoroughly confusing because of the differences in opinion on the web. I just read an article [1] that goes on about serving XHTML as text/html and why it's bad. It seems fair enough but I see it all over the place even on websites of experts like ppk, tantek's site, wordpress blogs etc... so I do it myself. The article suggests that XHTML doctype or no if it's served as text/html then it's treated as HTML. Secondly the wiki definition states they must be in (x)HTML/XML documents. If (x)HTML documents when served as text/html are treated as HTML how are the microformats still working? Does this mean microformats will work under an HTML 4.01 doctype? I might have the wrong end of the stick if the mime type only relates to browser rendering and compatibility... like I said I'm confused. [1] http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml Cheers, Rob From charlvn at charlvn.za.net Thu Feb 1 07:48:34 2007 From: charlvn at charlvn.za.net (Charl van Niekerk) Date: Thu Feb 1 07:48:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] mime types and microformats In-Reply-To: <45C2094D.9040405@sanchothefat.com> References: <45C2094D.9040405@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > I have a question regarding mime types and microformat parsing, an > area i find thoroughly confusing because of the differences in opinion > on the web. I just read an article [1] that goes on about serving XHTML > as text/html and why it's bad. It seems fair enough but I see it all > over the place even on websites of experts like ppk, tantek's site, > wordpress blogs etc... so I do it myself. The article suggests that > XHTML doctype or no if it's served as text/html then it's treated as > HTML. Secondly the wiki definition states they must be in (x)HTML/XML > documents. If (x)HTML documents when served as text/html are treated as > HTML how are the microformats still working? Does this mean microformats > will work under an HTML 4.01 doctype? > > I might have the wrong end of the stick if the mime type only relates to > browser rendering and compatibility... like I said I'm confused. I use Microformats on two of my websites, both inside of HTML 4.01 Strict, and most parsers seem to read them perfectly. Microformats integrates nicely into both XHTML and HTML; it uses the class attribute which is defined for both so I think you don't need to worry about using Microformats inside of either. Some examples: http://charlvn.virafrikaans.com/contact http://gross.org.za/calendar Cheers, Charl -- Charl van Niekerk http://charlvn.za.net From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Feb 1 07:58:17 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Feb 1 07:58:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] mime types and microformats In-Reply-To: <45C2094D.9040405@sanchothefat.com> References: <45C2094D.9040405@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <78287FEA-AAF4-4D83-AC8B-2000451D025A@ben-ward.co.uk> On 1 Feb 2007, at 15:37, Rob O'Rourke wrote: > If (x)HTML documents when served as text/html are treated as HTML > how are the microformats still working? Does this mean microformats > will work under an HTML 4.01 doctype? Microformats are generally parsed absolutely fine in both XHTML and HTML, for one of two reasons: ? Some parsers (such as JavaScript bookmarklets) parse the HTMLDOM with script, after the browser has done its parsing so at that level, it makes no difference whether the document is HTML or XHTML. ? Other parsers (such as X2V) use an XSLT stylesheet to convert from XHTML into vcard or icalendar. These first run pages through a tool called Tidy, which converts HTML to well formed XHTML to allow the XSLT to run. Basically, microformats are easier to parse directly if you use mark- up that validates as XML (the mime type doesn't make a difference in practice), but since open source tools exist that makes switching HTML into XHTML simple, real world parsing is very tolerant. Ben From rob at sanchothefat.com Thu Feb 1 08:18:22 2007 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Rob O'Rourke) Date: Thu Feb 1 08:18:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] mime types and microformats In-Reply-To: <78287FEA-AAF4-4D83-AC8B-2000451D025A@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <45C2094D.9040405@sanchothefat.com> <78287FEA-AAF4-4D83-AC8B-2000451D025A@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <45C212CE.2090707@sanchothefat.com> Ben Ward wrote: > On 1 Feb 2007, at 15:37, Rob O'Rourke wrote: >> If (x)HTML documents when served as text/html are treated as HTML how >> are the microformats still working? Does this mean microformats will >> work under an HTML 4.01 doctype? > > Microformats are generally parsed absolutely fine in both XHTML and > HTML, for one of two reasons: > > ? Some parsers (such as JavaScript bookmarklets) parse the HTMLDOM > with script, after the browser has done its parsing so at that level, > it makes no difference whether the document is HTML or XHTML. > ? Other parsers (such as X2V) use an XSLT stylesheet to convert from > XHTML into vcard or icalendar. These first run pages through a tool > called Tidy, which converts HTML to well formed XHTML to allow the > XSLT to run. > > Basically, microformats are easier to parse directly if you use > mark-up that validates as XML (the mime type doesn't make a difference > in practice), but since open source tools exist that makes switching > HTML into XHTML simple, real world parsing is very tolerant. > > Ben I see, clever stuff. Thanks for clarifying Ben. From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Feb 1 08:23:25 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Feb 1 08:23:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: <000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001> References: <000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001> Message-ID: <7BF80AB4-93BB-46B4-ACFE-48BA570FC1BB@ben-ward.co.uk> Hi Sam, On 31 Jan 2007, at 17:26, Sam Sethi wrote: > Just wondering does presence and mood really apply to a > microformat? What I > want is federated presence across applications and devices. > Personally I hope XMPP becomes the interoperable standard for > presence and > then we an build apps on top of this? I've not got a particular interest in a mood/presence microformat personally, but I think it's worth pointing out that you've got two different issues in hand there. I completely agree that having some means of unifying ?presence status? across applications would be fantastic. I also agree that a microformat is not an obvious answer to solve that problem (although it could be done and could work, all the same). The focus of an hMood microformat would be different though, reflecting the fact that right now, people can and do publish their moods and presence in HTML. Separately from IM and all the rest, but published all the same. On the premise that something useful can be done with this information that is already being published, a microformat would just make that information discoverable in a consistant manner. Nothing more. Now as you think ahead, of course if *could* be used by services one source of unified status, but that's not the problem a microformat would be focused on solving. Ben From derrick at pallas.us Thu Feb 1 08:44:59 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Thu Feb 1 08:45:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> Message-ID: <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> Ciaran McNulty wrote: > Can I ask what the confusion is? > > If I have a hcard with a rel-tag indicating 'football' in that hCard, > then the naive interpretation that 'this page has something on it to > do with football' that your parser will take from it is probably > correct. > What about an xFolk link with a tag of ? Should that imply that the containing page is not safe for work? Do the xFolk entries on unalog imply that unalog is about any of those tags? Here's my problem: rel-tag is reusable. It applies to whatever contains it. Well, except under specific circumstances which are documented in the other formats in which it has been reused, then it only applies to a sub-container, which we didn't mark in a generic way. I'm just looking for a generic scoping mark. ~D From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Feb 1 02:09:58 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Feb 1 09:11:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Profiles in-the-wild (was:Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers) In-Reply-To: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> Message-ID: In message <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org>, Karl Dubost writes >I think there is a possible win-win here. The Mozilla UI widget could >be activated only when the right URI (profile attribute) is really >here. What proportion of pages currently marked up with microformats use the "correct profile, and do so correctly? I've created to collect examples. -- Andy Mabbett Welcome to the 29-day week! From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Feb 1 03:15:25 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Feb 1 09:11:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers In-Reply-To: References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> Message-ID: In message , Kevin Marks writes > >On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:25 PM, Karl Dubost wrote: >> At first, I say ?cool, very cool!?. Then, taking a step back, >>I think what about the documents which have been created for the >>last 15 years before microformats effort existed. These documents >>contain class names which are probably and most certainly very >>similar to some values defined by microformats community. > >Karl, can you document instances of use of 'vcard', 'vevent', 'hfeed,' >'hresume', 'hreview' etc before microformats defined them? > >Very similar isn't an issue; exactly identical is. I shouldn't be in the least surprised if "geo" wasn't already in use somewhere, and probably "adr" Also, given that, after sending vast amounts of money, multinational companies still mange to release models of cars with names which translate into things like "you smell" in certain territories, what efforts have been made to check that, say, "hfeed" doesn't mean, say, "menu" in some language or other? -- Andy Mabbett Welcome to the 29-day week! From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Feb 1 08:48:45 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Feb 1 09:11:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: <7BF80AB4-93BB-46B4-ACFE-48BA570FC1BB@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001> <7BF80AB4-93BB-46B4-ACFE-48BA570FC1BB@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: In message <7BF80AB4-93BB-46B4-ACFE-48BA570FC1BB@ben-ward.co.uk>, Ben Ward writes >I completely agree that having some means of unifying ?presence >status? across applications would be fantastic. I also agree that a >microformat is not an obvious answer to solve that problem (although >it could be done and could work, all the same). That sounds like a job for RSS/ Atom; or a microsummary. -- Andy Mabbett Welcome to the 29-day week! From joe at andrieu.net Thu Feb 1 09:20:57 2007 From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu) Date: Thu Feb 1 09:20:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation Message-ID: <00fd01c74625$5730d1e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Tantek, et Cabal, >From the last blat of messages from Andy, I'm presuming that he is still being moderated? That punishment was to be for only a week. I'd be curious to know why it has lasted so long. And if he is still being moderated, I would kindly ask that you allow him to post without restriction. Regards, -j -- Joe Andrieu joe@andrieu.net +1 (805) 705-8651 From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Feb 1 09:24:24 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Feb 1 09:24:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > What about an xFolk link with a tag of ? > Should that imply that the containing page is not safe for work? Well if an item on a page is tagged NSFW doesn't that mean the page is NSFW? I must confess I'm not 100% familiar with xFolk. > rel-tag is reusable. It applies to whatever contains it. Well, except > under specific circumstances which are documented in the other formats > in which it has been reused, then it only applies to a sub-container, > which we didn't mark in a generic way. > > I'm just looking for a generic scoping mark. ~D My point is that rel-tag doesn't have any scope, and I'm sort-of arguing it doesn't need it. Take the example of a page that contains: * An hAtom entry tagged with 'FOO' * An hCard with the category 'BAR' An hAtom parser will correctly note that the only rel-tag in the hAtom entry is 'FOO' and so that's the category for the entry. An hCard parser will note that the only rel-tag inside the hCard is 'BAR, and so that category applies to the card. However, a generic rel-tag parser doesn't need to know "don't look inside hAtom and hCard", as you seem to be suggesting. Any rel-tags it finds may be applied to the page itself quite fairly, and so a rel-tag parser would say 'this page contains something relevant to FOO and something relevant to BAR. Does that make sense? -Ciaran McNulty From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 10:22:11 2007 From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian) Date: Thu Feb 1 10:22:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <923a87360702011022k498626c2q1ac911a39b2d5ce3@mail.gmail.com> On 1/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key" property for hCard? Intriguing... A. From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 10:30:55 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Feb 1 10:30:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780702011030k542ce24fgfa5155f3b52f6c33@mail.gmail.com> On 1/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>, Ara > Pehlivanian writes > > >what if someone registers ben-ward.net and puts up a fake > >card on that site. > > Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key" property for hCard? > > ;-) --- i'm not sure if that wink was ment for 'pgp-public-key' to be a joke, but hCard and vCard do have a 'key' property. This is an example in the wild. http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/SVS/personnel/henrich/index.php Much like the DATA URI it is possible to embed a BASE64 key into HTML. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Feb 1 10:34:12 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Feb 1 10:34:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation In-Reply-To: <00fd01c74625$5730d1e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <00fd01c74625$5730d1e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Tantek, et Cabal, > >> From the last blat of messages from Andy, I'm presuming that he is >> still >> being moderated? I don't know the answer to that question. I would only presume that Andy believes he is still being moderated, but I don't know how he'd know that unless he were still sending inappropriate messages to the list, in which case, wouldn't that be a good indication that moderation is still needed? > That punishment was to be for only a week. Moderation should not be used as punishment, and I don't believe that was the intent here. On Jan 3, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > I am sorry to do this, but your continued inability to listen to the > requests that have been made, and your continued flood of meta- > discussion > emails on the list have left me no other choice in order to > maintain the > quality of discussion on this list. Maintaining the quality of discussion on this list seems a good goal, and moderation seems to be a good means of achieving that goal. As far as timetables, as I recall there was discussion of *banning* Andy for one week. That was instead changed to moderation, which requires more work by admins, but allows Andy to continue posting appropriate messages to this list. There was no suggestion made about the length of this moderation. On Jan 3, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > absent any objections from anyone else on the > list (or IRC), you will shortly be banned from the mailing-list for > a week. On Jan 3, 2007, at 7:42 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > Thus I have moderated him instead of banning him. Joe wrote: > And if he is still > being moderated, I would kindly ask that you allow him to post without > restriction. I'm not clear on the perceived damage of long-term moderation. If it allows the good stuff in and keeps the bad stuff out, I see no harm. If it's keeping good stuff out, I would be very interested in seeing some of this good stuff that was kept out, as it would cause me to question moderation itself, regardless of length. Peace, Scott From joe at andrieu.net Thu Feb 1 10:58:36 2007 From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu) Date: Thu Feb 1 10:58:32 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010801c74632$fb936b00$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Scott Reynen wrote: > I'm not clear on the perceived damage of long-term > moderation. If it > allows the good stuff in and keeps the bad stuff out, I see > no harm. > If it's keeping good stuff out, I would be very interested in seeing > some of this good stuff that was kept out, as it would cause me to > question moderation itself, regardless of length. The 15 messages that just landed in my inbox are not the best way to have a conversation, especially as most of those messages are now out of date and out of context. Andy clearly sent those during the conversation and they were held for moderation. They are, IMO, good stuff. Moderation is a form of punishment, whether it is seen that way by the cabal or not. It ostracizes the moderated and prevents them from participating in the community like everyone else. In this case, it has made Andy a second-class uF citizen whose posts are censored in an ill-defined, unchecked process run by unnamed moderators. I say unnamed because although we know some of the moderators, unnamed others have apparently joined the effort as a means of spreading the governance beyond the founding cabal. That's progress, but these new volunteers have remained anonymous. Kind of like the secret police, really. Since this censorship judgment was issued by dictatorial fiat at a point when Andy was agitating over governance issues, I found it particularly disingenuous. That it has continued as long as it has only buttresses my concerns about governance. Obviously, the cabal has the power to do this thing. However, I remain unconvinced that this instance is not simply an abuse of that power. I would appreciate it if someone could forward me the "bad" posts that have justified Andy's continued moderation. In the face of the good posts, there needs to be some non-zero level of bad posts to justify continued moderation. Perhaps there is merit to the moderation. If so, I think it is appropriate for evidence to be shared with those in the community who care to review it. Or, if taking Andy off moderation has simply been overlooked, ok. Mistakes happen. In which case he should be allowed to post normally and we should remember as a community that we don't have the wherewithal to manage fine-tuned corrective procedures. -j -- Joe Andrieu joe@andrieu.net +1 (805) 705-8651 From michael.mccracken at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 11:17:19 2007 From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken) Date: Thu Feb 1 11:17:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > , Michael > McCracken writes > > >- We only have two examples of pages marking up the language on the > >web - W3C and Amazon.com. > > Might that be because most if not all of the examples are from > English-language websites, and that English-speakers are less likely to > be aware of language of an issue, or to be working on second languages? > Absolutely - I'm asking for help to correct this bias. If anyone can contribute examples from the web of documents in one language citing another language, that would help provide evidence for a language field in hCite. If there are no such examples, we could just say that the citations are assumed to be in the same language, and remove the language field (potentially revisiting it for later revisions of the microformat). -mike -- Michael McCracken UCSD CSE PhD Candidate research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/ misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/ From drernie at opendarwin.org Thu Feb 1 11:38:36 2007 From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar) Date: Thu Feb 1 11:38:39 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <010801c74632$fb936b00$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <010801c74632$fb936b00$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <747E3FB8-523D-4439-AC9D-55B80505E16F@opendarwin.org> Hi Joe, On Feb 1, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Or, if taking Andy off moderation has simply been overlooked, ok. > Mistakes happen. In which case he should be allowed to post > normally and > we should remember as a community that we don't have the > wherewithal to > manage fine-tuned corrective procedures. I agree with the concerns about latency, and would welcome feedback from Tantek et al about the status of Andy's "probation" (or whatever you want to call it). Overall, I think the moderators have done a decent job of keeping him in the loop, but (like everything else in this world), it hasn't been perfect, so it would be good to know whether it is still considered necessary. -- Ernie P. From bewest at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 11:38:46 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Thu Feb 1 11:38:54 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <010801c74632$fb936b00$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <010801c74632$fb936b00$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702011138i3324af11m76ae8fdf563f94ba@mail.gmail.com> > Moderation is a form of punishment, whether it is seen that way by the > cabal or not. It ostracizes the moderated and prevents them from > participating in the community like everyone else. In this case, it has > made Andy a second-class uF citizen whose posts are censored in an > ill-defined, unchecked process run by unnamed moderators. I say unnamed > because although we know some of the moderators, unnamed others have > apparently joined the effort as a means of spreading the governance > beyond the founding cabal. That's progress, but these new volunteers > have remained anonymous. Kind of like the secret police, really. Joe, I'm having trouble gauging how serious you are, because this interpretation of events is so different from how I, and I believe others, percieve the same events. The -admin list discussed what to do and the proposed actions were disclosed to the public. The fact that he was moderated instead of banned was due to community input. All actions taken were clearly taken by Tantek, who has always been an influential leader in this community. What part of this is secret? The community did have a say in what happened, and Tantek executed exactly that plan. > Since this censorship judgment was issued by dictatorial fiat at a point > when Andy was agitating over governance issues, I found it particularly > disingenuous. Again, this is an interesting interpretation. The actions were discussed on the -admin list by a worldwide group of volunteers. The results were disclosed on the -discuss list. The community gave feedback on the results. This didn't happen because Andy disagrees, it happened because of his behaviour while disagreeing. That it has continued as long as it has only buttresses my > concerns about governance. Obviously, the cabal has the power to do > this thing. However, I remain unconvinced that this instance is not > simply an abuse of that power. > > I would appreciate it if someone could forward me the "bad" posts that > have justified Andy's continued moderation. In the face of the good > posts, there needs to be some non-zero level of bad posts to justify > continued moderation. Perhaps there is merit to the moderation. If so, > I think it is appropriate for evidence to be shared with those in the > community who care to review it. > > Or, if taking Andy off moderation has simply been overlooked, ok. > Mistakes happen. In which case he should be allowed to post normally and > we should remember as a community that we don't have the wherewithal to > manage fine-tuned corrective procedures. > Again, Andy has been extremely helpful during his moderation, and the posts that cause negative influences in the community, personal attacks, and list membership to drop have ceased entirely. There was a limit set on the ban, but no such limit was proposed for the moderation. All evidence suggests that moderation is working. Thanks, Ben PS. There hasn't been many formal announcements regarding "governance issues" for several reasons. One reason is that the group is fairly conservative about making changes and being an "official" voice. Another reason is that we are simply more interested in doing actual work and making progress than dealing with meta-discussions about governance. While I expect this is an area we might improve in, if you are interested in finding the list of admins, you can deduce this list by looking at the admins in the IRC channel. From bewest at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 11:40:28 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Thu Feb 1 11:40:53 2007 Subject: Fwd: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701310928w44a43e3aka67ac922bfec282b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com> <8ad71be30701310928w44a43e3aka67ac922bfec282b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702011140l207e62f1ld0a812c1322ca727@mail.gmail.com> I accidently sent this to just Andy, when I meant to send it to the list. Oops. Anyway, I think the input others have had on this thread is very good, and I look forward to seeing the results. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Benjamin West Date: Jan 31, 2007 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process To: Andy Mabbett > >To be honest, the > >use case for the species microformat is a little bit weak. > > In what way do you think it could be weak? What information do you think > is lacking? It's not clear what the problem is. The statements refer to a future filled with software agents that know "where to search." Most of the examples you collected exhibit a hyperlinking behaviour to link the name being referenced to a more substantial article on the subject. It's not clear why a new format is required because it appears that the problem can be solved with either simple hyperlinking or with some clever application of rel-tag. > >It could > >be that if there is a lack of demand, it is due to the weak use case > >and the gap between the research and the proposal. > > In what way do you feel there is a gap between the research and the > proposal? How do you fee that the two could be more closely linked? The proposed format doesn't bear any resemblence to publishing behaviour in terms of the content and properties being published. The markup also does not resemble current publishing practices. > Why would you want to differentiate between two types of publishing? How > would you decide where to draw the line? "Right tool for the right job." Publishing behaviour would draw the line. Different types of publishing may or may not need different techniques for doing so. Ben West From ckstjohn at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 12:37:47 2007 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Thu Feb 1 12:37:55 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30702011138i3324af11m76ae8fdf563f94ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <010801c74632$fb936b00$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <8ad71be30702011138i3324af11m76ae8fdf563f94ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ba906450702011237y7626eff8y206d4620dfb8aa17@mail.gmail.com> > if > you are interested in finding the list of admins, you can deduce this > list by looking at the admins in the IRC channel. > Thanks a lot. I was drinking coffee when I read that, and I ended up spurting some out my nose. I can tell you one thing, hot coffee is definitely not meant to be taken nasally. Just when I thought this thread as entirely humorless :-) -cks -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From bewest at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 12:51:29 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Thu Feb 1 12:51:32 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <8ba906450702011237y7626eff8y206d4620dfb8aa17@mail.gmail.com> References: <010801c74632$fb936b00$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <8ad71be30702011138i3324af11m76ae8fdf563f94ba@mail.gmail.com> <8ba906450702011237y7626eff8y206d4620dfb8aa17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702011251g2e5db2adl57b083ba0f2f3527@mail.gmail.com> Hehehe. Sorry. I was merely suggesting that method because it is accurate and public, if a bit tedious. We're working to correct that at . Thanks, Ben (BTW, there are coffee recipes intended to be consumed via non-oral means.) On 2/1/07, Christopher St John wrote: > > if > > you are interested in finding the list of admins, you can deduce this > > list by looking at the admins in the IRC channel. > > > > Thanks a lot. I was drinking coffee when I read that, and I ended up > spurting some out my nose. I can tell you one thing, hot coffee is > definitely not meant to be taken nasally. Just when I thought this > thread as entirely humorless :-) > > -cks > > > -- > Christopher St. John > http://artofsystems.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From joe at andrieu.net Thu Feb 1 12:53:09 2007 From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu) Date: Thu Feb 1 12:53:07 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30702011138i3324af11m76ae8fdf563f94ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011f01c74642$fd05cc70$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Benjamin West wrote: > > Moderation is a form of punishment, whether it is seen that > way by the > > cabal or not. It ostracizes the moderated and prevents them from > > participating in the community like everyone else. In this case, it > > has made Andy a second-class uF citizen whose posts are > censored in an > > ill-defined, unchecked process run by unnamed moderators. I say > > unnamed because although we know some of the moderators, unnamed > > others have apparently joined the effort as a means of > spreading the > > governance beyond the founding cabal. That's progress, but > these new > > volunteers have remained anonymous. Kind of like the > secret police, > > really. > > Joe, I'm having trouble gauging how serious you are, because > this interpretation of events is so different from how I, and > I believe others, percieve the same events. The -admin list > discussed what to do and the proposed actions were disclosed > to the public. The fact that he was moderated instead of > banned was due to community input. All actions taken were > clearly taken by Tantek, who has always been an influential > leader in this community. What part of this is secret? The > community did have a say in what happened, and Tantek > executed exactly that plan. Respectfully, the difference in perspective is from what is done in secret and what is done publicly. I wouldn't quite agree that "proposed actions" were disclosed to the public. Rather, one proposed action was disclosed as imminent with a brief window of appeal. When I, and others, disagreed with that action, a different action--which had not been disclosed or discussed in public--was summarily imposed. What is secret is the conversation on the -admin list. I didn't even know it existed. And to say that the community had a say in Tantek's action is about as valid as saying the American public had a say in George Bush's recent troop increase. If instead, a transcript of the discussion leading to the action had been shared with the public, it would've gone a long way to assuaging my frustrations at the lack of openness in the uF governance process. > > Since this censorship judgment was issued by dictatorial fiat at a > > point when Andy was agitating over governance issues, I found it > > particularly disingenuous. > > Again, this is an interesting interpretation. The actions > were discussed on the -admin list by a worldwide group of > volunteers. The results were disclosed on the -discuss list. > The community gave feedback on the results. This didn't > happen because Andy disagrees, it happened because of his > behaviour while disagreeing. Yes, the "worldwide group of volunteers," the ever expanding cabal of secret police. ;) Seriously, Ben, I would appreciate disclosure of who these volunteers are and what was said for and against Andy in making the decision. I do believe that you are all acting in what you feel is in the best interest of the group. However, that's not sufficient. Tyrants and dictators always feel they are acting in the group's best interest and usually have very compelling justifications for their actions. What's necessary is transparency about who is making the decisions and why. I may agree with those decisions, but when they are hidden, it only rouses suspicions. If I could see how the leaders of this group actually make decisions, I could come to some informed conclusions about how I can best contribute and even if contributing to the effort is still in my interest. So far, I'm hopeful that these are simply growing pains from a community that is young and not so experienced in scaling beyond the inner clique. > That it has continued as long as it has only buttresses my > > concerns about governance. Obviously, the cabal has the > power to do > > this thing. However, I remain unconvinced that this > instance is not > > simply an abuse of that power. > > > > I would appreciate it if someone could forward me the "bad" > posts that > > have justified Andy's continued moderation. In the face of the good > > posts, there needs to be some non-zero level of bad posts > to justify > > continued moderation. Perhaps there is merit to the > moderation. If > > so, I think it is appropriate for evidence to be shared > with those in > > the community who care to review it. > > > > Or, if taking Andy off moderation has simply been overlooked, ok. > > Mistakes happen. In which case he should be allowed to post > normally > > and we should remember as a community that we don't have the > > wherewithal to manage fine-tuned corrective procedures. > > > > Again, Andy has been extremely helpful during his moderation, > and the posts that cause negative influences in the > community, personal attacks, and list membership to drop have > ceased entirely. There was a limit set on the ban, but no > such limit was proposed for the moderation. All evidence > suggests that moderation is working. So, you are happy that the moderation was imposed summarily and without deadline. That's harsh. The clear implication from the conversation was that the moderation would be for one week, and I believe Tantek said as much on IRC at the time[1]. However, if we have devolved into debating minor technicalities, we are missing the point. If it worked, great. Then we should lift the probation. Andy's already forwarded one email to me that didn't seem worth moderating, and it is clear the bundle of recent posts would have been much more useful if they had also been timely. > PS. There hasn't been many formal announcements regarding > "governance issues" for several reasons. One reason is that > the group is fairly conservative about making changes and > being an "official" voice. Another reason is that we are > simply more interested in doing actual work and making > progress than dealing with meta-discussions about governance. > While I expect this is an area we might improve in, if you > are interested in finding the list of admins, you can deduce > this list by looking at the admins in the IRC channel. I understand the experiential and cultural biases. However, the youth of the organization and the desire for current leadership to avoid systematizing the mechanisms of governance is not sufficient basis for maintaining the status quo. Suggesting that who's who on the IRC channel is sufficient disclosure misses the bigger picture that uF is bigger than the cabal that hangs out on IRC and deserves a commons and processes that can begin to address these issues more openly. Respectfully, -j [1] http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-01-04#T011730 -- Joe Andrieu joe@andrieu.net +1 (805) 705-8651 From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Feb 1 10:53:15 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Feb 1 13:20:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <21e770780702011030k542ce24fgfa5155f3b52f6c33@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780702011030k542ce24fgfa5155f3b52f6c33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780702011030k542ce24fgfa5155f3b52f6c33@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >This is an example in the wild. >http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/SVS/personnel/henrich/index.php I wonder what an aural browser/ screen reader would make of that... -- Andy Mabbett Welcome to the 29-day week! From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Feb 1 12:26:26 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Feb 1 13:20:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Michael McCracken writes >On 1/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message >> , Michael >> McCracken writes >> >> >- We only have two examples of pages marking up the language on the >> >web - W3C and Amazon.com. >> >> Might that be because most if not all of the examples are from >> English-language websites, and that English-speakers are less likely to >> be aware of language of an issue, or to be working on second languages? >> > >Absolutely - I'm asking for help to correct this bias. Doh! I have some myself, on: -- Andy Mabbett Welcome to the 29-day week! From michael.mccracken at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 15:07:42 2007 From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken) Date: Thu Feb 1 15:07:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > , Michael > McCracken writes > > >On 1/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> In message > >> , Michael > >> McCracken writes > >> > >> >- We only have two examples of pages marking up the language on the > >> >web - W3C and Amazon.com. > >> > >> Might that be because most if not all of the examples are from > >> English-language websites, and that English-speakers are less likely to > >> be aware of language of an issue, or to be working on second languages? > >> > > > >Absolutely - I'm asking for help to correct this bias. > > Doh! I have some myself, on: > > Nice, those are good examples - they do mark up the language of the citation itself, but don't mention the language of the cited object (presumably because it's easy to deduce) - was that intentional or just following established practice? Also, could you add those examples to the citation-examples & citation-examples-markup wiki pages (if they're not already there)? In my experience, established practice is that the language is not explicitly stated, and if it is, the case of a citation printing a title in one language that is referring to an item in a different language (eg, printing the title of a german book in english) is rare. So if the evidence confirms my suspicion that it's really rare to need to mark up the language of (for example) the book separately from the language of the words in the book's title, then can we just say that the language is inferred from the @lang property of the hcite element? (And hence, drop the 'language' field from the hCite straw format?) Thanks, -mike -- Michael McCracken UCSD CSE PhD Candidate research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/ misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/ From derrick at pallas.us Thu Feb 1 18:14:43 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Thu Feb 1 18:15:06 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> Message-ID: <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> > My point is that rel-tag doesn't have any scope, and I'm sort-of > arguing it doesn't need it. Except it does need it. Say you put your del.icio.us (or otherwise) feed on your page and want to include it and the associated tags as xFolk entries. How can a generic rel-tag parser know that the xFolk entires don't apply to the current page without knowing about xFolk. That's the scoping problem. > However, a generic rel-tag parser doesn't need to know "don't look > inside hAtom and hCard", as you seem to be suggesting. Any rel-tags > it finds may be applied to the page itself quite fairly, and so a > rel-tag parser would say 'this page contains something relevant to FOO > and something relevant to BAR. False. The example above demonstrates that there is a use-case for having an explicit scope. In fact, the issue was brought up on the rel-tag-issues page 20060404 and has never been resolved. The problem is not that they "may be applied to the page" it's that they "are applied to the page" and there are reasons that is inappropriate, i.e. we need to indicate scope. My solution (to indicate scope with a generic rel-tag counterpart and then allow specific parsers to override the scoping rule if they understand the containing element) is both general and powerful. Take the example of a dead relative: there is no way to put a family tree with relatives you need to tag as "deceased" on your own page without a document level parser concluding that you are dead. ~D From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 02:07:27 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Feb 2 02:07:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31/01/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > , Frances > Berriman writes > > >As for an activity (if this is what you may be suggesting by > >presense), the same would apply (is currently >href="http://www.wikipedia.com/skydiving" rel="tag">sky diving and > > about > >it). > > How would you differentiate between something written *about* > sky-diving, and one written *while*, er, sky-diving? Perhaps using another rel value, similar to #? I'm just not sure what the best descriptive keyword would be! -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From timber at lava.net Fri Feb 2 04:04:38 2007 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Fri Feb 2 04:04:41 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <011f01c74642$fd05cc70$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <011f01c74642$fd05cc70$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <302C91FD-0589-4A05-A820-3E93D2F566AF@lava.net> On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > And to say that the community had a say in Tantek's > action is about as valid as saying the American public had a say in > George Bush's recent troop increase. You are treading dangerously close to invoking Godwin's Law[1] here, and a number of other places in your recent messages. I'd ask that you refrain from this sort of thing. It's certainly possible to address these issues without comparisons like that, and it would certainly be welcome, I think, by all involved. Again, in general, I've found your tone to be disrespectful to the integrity of all members of this list, by implying that we would allow a tyrannical "government" to rule over the unknowing masses, and particularly to the outstanding administrators of this list, who have been *extremely* measured in their response to many members of this list, something for which I applaud them -- having been on the other side of the coin it's extremely easy to just remove someone from the equation, but they have bent over backwards (IMO) to accommodate Andy, calling them dictators totally unnecessary just plain incorrect on a variety of levels. Is there room for improvement? Always. Is this the place to talk about it? Probably. Is comparing them to a secret police or to an unpopular sitting American president necessary or helpful to the debate? Probably not. -Colin [1] http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Feb 2 04:10:57 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Feb 2 04:11:01 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <302C91FD-0589-4A05-A820-3E93D2F566AF@lava.net> References: <011f01c74642$fd05cc70$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <302C91FD-0589-4A05-A820-3E93D2F566AF@lava.net> Message-ID: <21e523c20702020410w3f3dfb94iceeff951a4895549@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Colin Barrett wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > > > And to say that the community had a say in Tantek's > > action is about as valid as saying the American public had a say in > > George Bush's recent troop increase. > > You are treading dangerously close to invoking Godwin's Law[1] here, > and a number of other places in your recent messages. > > I'd ask that you refrain from this sort of thing. It's certainly > possible to address these issues without comparisons like that, and it > would certainly be welcome, I think, by all involved. > > Again, in general, I've found your tone to be disrespectful to the > integrity of all members of this list, by implying that we would allow > a tyrannical "government" to rule over the unknowing masses, and > particularly to the outstanding administrators of this list, who have > been *extremely* measured in their response to many members of this > list, something for which I applaud them -- having been on the other > side of the coin it's extremely easy to just remove someone from the > equation, but they have bent over backwards (IMO) to accommodate Andy, > calling them dictators totally unnecessary just plain incorrect on a > variety of levels. > > Is there room for improvement? Always. Is this the place to talk about > it? Probably. Is comparing them to a secret police or to an unpopular > sitting American president necessary or helpful to the debate? > Probably not. Hear hear. Keep your politics on your blog. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From timber at lava.net Fri Feb 2 04:20:00 2007 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Fri Feb 2 04:20:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process In-Reply-To: References: <8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <66A15772-13F4-46EB-BD6E-80776D4B18A1@lava.net> On Feb 1, 2007, at 7:31 AM, Charles Roper wrote: > What does the community feel should be the focus for species at > present? Now that I know that the analysis of existing practice is > about the existing *content* rather than existing *markup*, That's not entirely true. Existing markup plays a large role in what is published. Obviously it's not all going to be standardized, but if there are some common class names and general structure that is used, that may be taken into consideration, especially a case where, unlike hcard and hcalendar, there isn't already a commonly used format with a spec already written out. In a case like that, existing markup becomes very important. The main idea right now would be to be discussing things on the brainstorming page. Read over Andy's strawman, debate it. If need be, draw up another draft, and another, until you can reach some kind of consensus amongst the interested parties. It may be relevant to "check in" with this list from time to time, but by and large people who are interested should be going to and talking on, the relevant wiki pages. If I've gotten any of the above paragraph wrong, list, feel free to jump in. > I'm less > inclined to say the existing proposal is *over*complex. Sure, it looks > complex to the untrained eye because the taxonomic hierarchy *is* > complex, but then so is the full hCard spec. My own view is that > because species is an extraction of the existing Linnaen taxonomic > hierarchy ... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linnaen_taxonomy > > ... its complexity is justified, surely? > > I'm still able to be persuaded either way on this one, though, should > a compelling argument arise. You might want to consider writing up a document that explains some of the choices you made to someone with only passing (high school level) knowledge of taxonomy. Are there other taxonomical systems? Why did you chose this one? How standard is it? Are people using any informal standards that might be more widespread? If they are, why did you reject them? I know some of those questions are answered on the Wikipedia, and I'm not even sure that this list is the right place to post those answers to be posted, as well. It might be helpful to add something like that to the microformats process itself -- I think it could be a helpful tool for specification writers to make them think about the document they're writing a little harder about exactly what they're doing. -Colin From danny.ayers at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 05:12:52 2007 From: danny.ayers at gmail.com (Danny Ayers) Date: Fri Feb 2 05:12:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XMDP Profile for hCalendar Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0702020512j4a2206abt52a2d635bb3de11e@mail.gmail.com> I needed a profile URI for hCalendar for use with GRDDL, but there wasn't even a profile. There was a list of terms [1] on the microformats wiki, so using DanC's hCard profile [2] as a template I've made a first draft [3]. I've no idea how complete or accurate the list of terms is, though editorial tweaking is clearly needed and I haven't (yet) included links to the corresponding sections of RFC 2445. I'd be very grateful if someone could place this at a more trustworthy location, in lieu of a more complete profile. According to the wiki [4]: [[ it is ACCEPTED that each microformat should have a profile URI ]] However the issue of what domain to use remains open. Given that the only concrete proposal that has appeared in relation to this (in nearly a year) is to use W3C space, I suggest the microformats community accept this proposal and make a request to the W3C for them to mint a URI for the hCalendar profile, following W3C namespace policy. Cheers, Danny. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-profile [2] http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard [3] http://dannyayers.com/microformats/hcalendar-profile [4] http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris -- http://dannyayers.com From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 05:22:25 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Feb 2 05:22:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] "Hello World" or "How do I get started with the process?" In-Reply-To: <45BB97EF.5000304@pallas.us> References: <45BB97EF.5000304@pallas.us> Message-ID: On 27/01/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > For anyone that hasn't met me: I'm a software engineer at a search > company. (However, nothing I say on this list is on behalf of or > reflects the views of my company.) For anyone that has met me: yes, I > finally signed up. (I'll no longer need to read over Ben's shoulder.) Hi Derrik! Welcome to the discuss list. > I've been consuming microformats and have some ideas for an additional > format. I've done some research to that end but am not sure if just > putting up a page on the wiki is the right first step. (Are there actual > templates for the pages described in the process document? Or should I > just mimic similarly named pages?) > We have defined a process for suggesting, researching and defining microformats and we encourage those persons interested to read that and try and follow it [1]. A first good port of call though is to chuck a message up on the -discuss list and let the community know what you have in mind and what you want to achieve. You may find others are having the same problems, or alternatively that they've already come up with a way to do what they need to do with existing microformats. [1]http://microformats.org/wiki/process -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From reachme at charlesroper.co.uk Fri Feb 2 05:33:03 2007 From: reachme at charlesroper.co.uk (Charles Roper) Date: Fri Feb 2 05:33:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process In-Reply-To: <66A15772-13F4-46EB-BD6E-80776D4B18A1@lava.net> References: <8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com> <66A15772-13F4-46EB-BD6E-80776D4B18A1@lava.net> Message-ID: On 02/02/07, Colin Barrett wrote: > > On Feb 1, 2007, at 7:31 AM, Charles Roper wrote: > > What does the community feel should be the focus for species at > > present? Now that I know that the analysis of existing practice is > > about the existing *content* rather than existing *markup*, > > That's not entirely true. Existing markup plays a large role in what > is published. Obviously it's not all going to be standardized, but if > there are some common class names and general structure that is used, > that may be taken into consideration, especially a case where, unlike > hcard and hcalendar, there isn't already a commonly used format with a > spec already written out. In a case like that, existing markup becomes > very important. Good point. I didn't mean imply that existing markup practice held no value whatsoever. I appreciate that using existing markup practice is a sensible course of action where appropriate. > The main idea right now would be to be discussing things on the > brainstorming page. Read over Andy's strawman, debate it. If need be, > draw up another draft, and another, until you can reach some kind of > consensus amongst the interested parties. It may be relevant to "check > in" with this list from time to time, but by and large people who are > interested should be going to and talking on, the relevant wiki pages. Understood. > You might want to consider writing up a document that explains some of > the choices you made to someone with only passing (high school level) > knowledge of taxonomy. Are there other taxonomical systems? Why did > you chose this one? How standard is it? Are people using any informal > standards that might be more widespread? If they are, why did you > reject them? All good suggestions, thank you. I agree that the answers should go on the wiki. > It might be helpful to add something like that to the microformats > process itself -- I think it could be a helpful tool for specification > writers to make them think about the document they're writing a little > harder about exactly what they're doing. I think you're right. Cheers, Charles -- Charles Roper www.sxbrc.org.uk From laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it Fri Feb 2 05:35:58 2007 From: laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it (Goix Laurent Walter) Date: Fri Feb 2 05:36:06 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andy, Ben, Agreed that Presence interop issue can lead to endless metaphysical discussions and is out of scope here. As both of you pointed out, the proposal is simply for better formalizing self-expression in HTML content, in particular regarding moods and activities. This is already useful in the blogging area for 'presence discovery' out of such info. I'm personally further interested in linking this with some presence system (no matter how), but I understand it may not be shared by all. Probably defining some concepts such as "mood" or "activity" would be fair enough for some hPresence formalism. walter -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andy Mabbett Sent: mercoled? 31 gennaio 2007 18.02 To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In message , Frances Berriman writes >As for an activity (if this is what you may be suggesting by >presense), the same would apply (is currently href="http://www.wikipedia.com/skydiving" rel="tag">sky diving and > about >it). How would you differentiate between something written *about* sky-diving, and one written *while*, er, sky-diving? -- Andy Mabbett * Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: * Free Our Data: * Are you using Microformats, yet: ? _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by replying to webmaster@telecomitalia.it. Thank you www.telecomitalia.it -------------------------------------------------------------------- From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 05:42:50 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Feb 2 05:42:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780702020542nc4a3b25t9ee7e725b083cfca@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/07, Michael McCracken wrote: > So if the evidence confirms my suspicion that it's really rare to need > to mark up the language of (for example) the book separately from the > language of the words in the book's title, then can we just say that > the language is inferred from the @lang property of the hcite element? > (And hence, drop the 'language' field from the hCite straw format?) --- i would agree, that removing the explicit "language" field from the straw format is a good idea. Maybe make a note that this IS a value, but is extracted from the @lang attribute. So it is still present, but in a different way. The whole hCite is still in development. So i think it is best to widdle this down to ONLY the very basic fields needed. Then mark-up real world examples. Then we can itterate and evolve from there. An explicite language field (IMHO) doesn't make the first-cut since we have another (already built in way) to encode this sort of data. Feel free to ammend the wiki as needed. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Fri Feb 2 06:07:57 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Fri Feb 2 06:08:02 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> Message-ID: On 2/2/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Except it does need it. Say you put your del.icio.us (or otherwise) feed > on your page and want to include it and the associated tags as xFolk > entries. How can a generic rel-tag parser know that the xFolk entires > don't apply to the current page without knowing about xFolk. That's the > scoping problem. The tag applying to the page just means that there's something on the page relevant to that tag. And there is - the del.icio.us feed! > The problem is > not that they "may be applied to the page" it's that they "are applied > to the page" I meant 'may' as in 'yes, the parser can go ahead and apply them' - my ambiguity sorry. > and there are reasons that is inappropriate, Can you expand on the reasons? Basically, if a page has a blog entry about Cats and an hCard in the category 'Dogs' on it, why can't that page validly be tagged with 'cats' and 'dogs'? > My solution (to indicate scope with a generic rel-tag > counterpart and then allow specific parsers to override the scoping rule > if they understand the containing element) is both general and powerful. I haven't looked at the different scoping proposals and certainly I'm not saying yours is bad, I'm questioning the need to complicate what is after all an incredibly simple format. > Take the example of a dead relative: there is no way to put a family > tree with relatives you need to tag as "deceased" on your own page > without a document level parser concluding that you are dead. That doesn't make any sense to me. All a rel-tag parser would take from it would be that the page had something on it about someone who's 'dead', surely. I don't know where it starts making inferences about me. -Ciaran From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 06:09:11 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Feb 2 06:09:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> Message-ID: <21e770780702020609q319ecc60h96ec84640f656f75@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Take the example of a dead relative: there is no way to put a family > tree with relatives you need to tag as "deceased" on your own page > without a document level parser concluding that you are dead. --- that is not true, you are not confusing that YOU ARE DEAD, you are only saying that the page has information about 'dead'. Rel-tag when applied to the whole page simply says that there is some information on this page related to 'X'. Nothing more... when you scope it to a specific microformat it gains further meaning about ONLY that object. In your family tree example, a rel-tag crawler would find a rel-tag of dead on the page and index it under the tagspace of 'dead'. This is expected, perfectly valid, and correct behavior. Now, when you look to a specific hCard searcher/spider, it will NOT apply rel-tag of 'dead' to all the hCards on the page, ONLY to the ones where it has been scoped (this is done my adding the rel-tag inside the class="vcard") it will not mix-up things and assume you are dead. Does that make sense? -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From derrick at pallas.us Fri Feb 2 08:04:11 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Fri Feb 2 08:04:49 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <21e770780702020609q319ecc60h96ec84640f656f75@mail.gmail.com> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> <21e770780702020609q319ecc60h96ec84640f656f75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C360FB.7090001@pallas.us> Brian Suda wrote: > Does that make sense? That's what I get for using someone else's example. Still, no one has responded to the more fundamental concern that rel-tag is not reusable for things like lists of bookmarks. (Or does someone really find it helpful that a "page has content about X" can just mean that a "page has a bookmark to X; or at least it did when I indexed the page, I guess its not there anymore because it rolled off.") ~D From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Feb 2 06:29:23 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Feb 2 08:12:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Michael McCracken writes >> > >Nice, those are good examples Thank you. > - they do mark up the language of the >citation itself, but don't mention the language of the cited object >(presumably because it's easy to deduce) - was that intentional or >just following established practice? Following the house style of the paper magazine in which the article first appeared. Though I am reminded that I still have to figure out which language some of them are in! >Also, could you add those examples to the citation-examples & >citation-examples-markup wiki pages (if they're not already there)? Will do, though of course you could, too! >In my experience, established practice is that the language is not >explicitly stated, and if it is, the case of a citation printing a >title in one language that is referring to an item in a different >language (eg, printing the title of a german book in english) is >rare. I may be rare, but it does happen. "Mein Kampf" in English is still titled "Mein Kampf" >So if the evidence confirms my suspicion that it's really rare to need >to mark up the language of (for example) the book separately from the >language of the words in the book's title, then can we just say that >the language is inferred from the @lang property of the hcite element? No! Only from a hreflang attribute, if present. Note my previous examples. >(And hence, drop the 'language' field from the hCite straw format?) I still don't think that that are anywhere near enough examples, especially of non-English-language sources, to be confident that it's not widely used. -- Andy Mabbett * Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: * Free Our Data: * Are you using Microformats, yet: ? From derrick at pallas.us Fri Feb 2 08:17:01 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Fri Feb 2 08:17:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> Message-ID: <45C363FD.8030402@pallas.us> Ciaran McNulty wrote: > The tag applying to the page just means that there's something on the > page relevant to that tag. And there is - the del.icio.us feed! The tag applies to the link; not the content, and certainly not the whole contents of the page. If I search for "pages with tag foo" and a page with a link to something tagged foo comes up, that's not what I wanted. > Can you expand on the reasons? > > Basically, if a page has a blog entry about Cats and an hCard in the > category 'Dogs' on it, why can't that page validly be tagged with > 'cats' and 'dogs'? It can be. But xFolk and hReview, etc., specifically change the semantics of rel-tag in their definitions. The problem is that there is no way to tell where that semantic shift ends (i.e. what scope it has) without understanding xFolk and hReview. Are we going to require all old microformat parsers to understand all new microformats? > I haven't looked at the different scoping proposals and certainly I'm > not saying yours is bad, I'm questioning the need to complicate what > is after all an incredibly simple format. "Consistency - the design must not be inconsistent. A design is allowed to be slightly less simple and less complete to avoid inconsistency. Consistency is as important as correctness." ~D From joe at andrieu.net Fri Feb 2 08:22:00 2007 From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu) Date: Fri Feb 2 08:22:04 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <302C91FD-0589-4A05-A820-3E93D2F566AF@lava.net> Message-ID: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Colin Barrett wrote: > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:05 AM > To: Microformats Discuss > Subject: Re: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's > moderation] > > > On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > > > And to say that the community had a say in Tantek's > > action is about as valid as saying the American public had a say in > > George Bush's recent troop increase. > > You are treading dangerously close to invoking Godwin's Law[1] here, > and a number of other places in your recent messages. > > I'd ask that you refrain from this sort of thing. It's certainly > possible to address these issues without comparisons like > that, and it > would certainly be welcome, I think, by all involved. > > Again, in general, I've found your tone to be disrespectful to the > integrity of all members of this list, by implying that we > would allow > a tyrannical "government" to rule over the unknowing masses, and > particularly to the outstanding administrators of this list, > who have > been *extremely* measured in their response to many members of this > list, something for which I applaud them -- having been on the other > side of the coin it's extremely easy to just remove someone from the > equation, but they have bent over backwards (IMO) to > accommodate Andy, > calling them dictators totally unnecessary just plain incorrect on a > variety of levels. I appreciate your point. And certainly will recalibrate my comments to help facilitate rather than inflame. For the record, you will note that I haven't invoked either terms mentioned in Godwin's law. A few points: 1. I was not the first to refer to the leadership of uF as a dictatorship. 2. The admin list is secret and they do police this list. For any reasonable observer, that makes them secret police. > Is there room for improvement? Always. Is this the place to > talk about > it? Probably. Is comparing them to a secret police or to an > unpopular > sitting American president necessary or helpful to the debate? > Probably not. The Bush reference was definitely more personal than merited. You were right to call me on it. However, I stand by the point of that comment--a simple assertion that the "community" participated in a decision doesn't make it so, especially when members of that community voiced, and continue to voice, opposition that remains unaddressed. I also stand by the secret police phrasing. As a term, perhaps it is inflammatory. I'm ok with that. Let me explain why. Here's a qoute from IRC yesterday[2]: # [19:59:34] i'd like to get the membership of the -admin list documented in the wiki so we can stop seeing hyperbole like "secret police" # [20:01:13] This FAQ seems like the best place to put a list: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_Who_controls_microformats.3F # [20:02:05] does anyone mind if i start a list there, without including anyone who hasn't already publicly declared their participation on the -admin list? # [20:02:33] tantek, kingryan, bewest, briansuda, KevinMarks? First, thanks, Scott, for initiating that change. Second, why exclude anyone who "hasn't already publicly declared their participation?" There is a culture of secrecy here that is the core of my issue. Why such secrecy? Why should anyone be allowed to be an admin in this community if they are only willing to do so secretly? I want to be clear here. This is not about a witch hunt or empty rebellion. The leadership has NO external checks and balances. Even the most private non-profit organization in the united states (I can't speak for other jurisdictions), must hold to certain standards about their leadership, their decision making, and directing the actions of the group for the benefit of society. Microformats has none of that. It is, rather, a private club that hasn't done such a good job at transparency with its constituency. Third, although few people like a gadfly, it appears that my efforts are making some sort of difference, as evidenced by the IRC above and changes to the wiki. Following Ben's argument, all evidence suggests my opposition is "working". That said, I do take your criticisms to heart and will make an effort to be more diplomatic. I think there is an opportunity for uF to thrive. It is instead alienating, based on feedback I've received, not only from Andy, and not only through this list. We can do better. -j > [1] http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html [2] http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-02-01#T195934 -- Joe Andrieu joe@andrieu.net +1 (805) 705-8651 From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 08:27:22 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Feb 2 08:27:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <45C360FB.7090001@pallas.us> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> <21e770780702020609q319ecc60h96ec84640f656f75@mail.gmail.com> <45C360FB.7090001@pallas.us> Message-ID: <21e770780702020827s29da5c0ev5b560cae443ee756@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Still, no one has responded to the more fundamental concern that rel-tag > is not reusable for things like lists of bookmarks. --- i think the issue might be with what you WANT rel-tag to be and what it is? at the moment rel-tag would say "this page as content about X". That is ALL rel-tag knows about and that is all a rel-tag spider is concerned with. > (Or does someone > really find it helpful that a "page has content about X" can just mean > that a "page has a bookmark to X; or at least it did when I indexed the > page, I guess its not there anymore because it rolled off.") ~D It doesn't matter if it is a bookmark, blog post, hAtom entry, hCalendar or hResume, etc. A rel-tag applies to the page. Organizations like Icerocket, Technorati and others index TAGS all they are conserned with is getting you to the data. (freshness of that data is another problem, sure things might roll off, but things might go 404 too! that's life) I'm not sure what you mean when you say "is not reusable for things like lists of bookmarks." why not? when a rel-tag spider comes around and finds the tags it gets indexed in one way. When a bookmark/xFolk spider comes along it indexes things differently. I get the feeling you want both the rel-tag and bookmark spiders to index it in the exact same way? At the moment this is NOT how rel-tag works. Do you have a specific use-case or URL you want us to look at? otherwise we should stay away from hypothetical what ifs. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From drernie at opendarwin.org Fri Feb 2 08:53:09 2007 From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar) Date: Fri Feb 2 08:53:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Moderation & Governance In-Reply-To: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <74B30A3B-46CD-422D-838D-A17F9408FCEF@opendarwin.org> Hi Joe, On Feb 2, 2007, at 8:22 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Third, although few people like a gadfly, it appears that my > efforts are > making some sort of difference, as evidenced by the IRC above and > changes to the wiki. Following Ben's argument, all evidence > suggests my > opposition is "working". > > That said, I do take your criticisms to heart and will make an > effort to > be more diplomatic. I think there is an opportunity for uF to thrive. > It is instead alienating, based on feedback I've received, not only > from > Andy, and not only through this list. We can do better. I do welcome your efforts to be a gadfly, and I welcome even more your commitment to be more diplomatic. :-) I also encourage people to post suggestions/votes/data on the relevant wiki pages, to help push us towards a constructive solution: * http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_Who_controls_microformats.3F * http://microformats.org/wiki/issues#Governance_Issues I would also like to revive the idea of a "meta-discuss" list to handle governance and other non-technical issues. This appears to be off-topic for the current wiki page on mailing lists for new micorformats: * http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists-proposals#microformats-meta So, can anyone suggest the appropriate venue for proposing/discussing that? -- Ernie P. From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Feb 2 10:12:25 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Feb 2 10:12:29 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <302C91FD-0589-4A05-A820-3E93D2F566AF@lava.net> <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <21e523c20702021012r50caf239q8528541313132cd1@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Joe Andrieu wrote: > I want to be clear here. This is not about a witch hunt or empty > rebellion. The leadership has NO external checks and balances. Even the > most private non-profit organization in the united states (I can't speak > for other jurisdictions), must hold to certain standards about their > leadership, their decision making, and directing the actions of the > group for the benefit of society. Microformats has none of that. It > is, rather, a private club that hasn't done such a good job at > transparency with its constituency. I'm certainly sympathetic to the concerns of both sides here, but man, there's only so many hours in a day to read mailing lists. I really wish there was a -meta or -governance or -process [1] list where these discussions took place. Regards, etc... David [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists-proposals#microformats-process -- the paragraph describing this doesn't really seem to be what I'm talking about here though. -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From michael.mccracken at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 10:26:48 2007 From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken) Date: Fri Feb 2 10:26:52 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702021012r50caf239q8528541313132cd1@mail.gmail.com> References: <302C91FD-0589-4A05-A820-3E93D2F566AF@lava.net> <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <21e523c20702021012r50caf239q8528541313132cd1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/2/07, David Janes wrote: > On 2/2/07, Joe Andrieu wrote: > > I want to be clear here. This is not about a witch hunt or empty > > rebellion. The leadership has NO external checks and balances. Even the > > most private non-profit organization in the united states (I can't speak > > for other jurisdictions), must hold to certain standards about their > > leadership, their decision making, and directing the actions of the > > group for the benefit of society. Microformats has none of that. It > > is, rather, a private club that hasn't done such a good job at > > transparency with its constituency. > > I'm certainly sympathetic to the concerns of both sides here, but man, > there's only so many hours in a day to read mailing lists. I really > wish there was a -meta or -governance or -process [1] list where these > discussions took place. Amen. I would be happy to subscribe to a -meta list and check it once in a while, but having it mixed in with the actual work is exhausting. -mike -- Michael McCracken UCSD CSE PhD Candidate research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/ misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/ From bewest at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 10:46:46 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Fri Feb 2 10:46:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Moderation & Governance In-Reply-To: <74B30A3B-46CD-422D-838D-A17F9408FCEF@opendarwin.org> References: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <74B30A3B-46CD-422D-838D-A17F9408FCEF@opendarwin.org> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702021046i5d4dbad0y2f9ea2022c63a437@mail.gmail.com> > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_Who_controls_microformats.3F > * http://microformats.org/wiki/issues#Governance_Issues > > I would also like to revive the idea of a "meta-discuss" list to > handle governance and other non-technical issues. This appears to be > off-topic for the current wiki page on mailing lists for new > micorformats: > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists-proposals#microformats-meta > > So, can anyone suggest the appropriate venue for proposing/discussing > that? > > -- Ernie P. Ernie, Thanks. I think you nailed it. Let's try to keep -discuss on-topic. Issues can go on either the to-do page or on . Joe, There are people on the -admin list who are not considered admins. These include service providers and other influential contacts. In addition, Ryan and I have had conversations about how the admins are cautious to make changes without seeking feedback and corroboration with others. This includes not [mis]representing others, which I believe Scott was doing. However, this also means that there won't be any broad sweeping changes overnight. I can assure you that all of the admins will be apropriately listed on the wiki page. Until that list is complete, my original suggestion remains: you can create the list of active admins by looking at the IRC logs. If you can be persistent in your criticisms without resorting to hyberbolic imagery, it would allow, at least, me, more strongly consider your points. As for the policing metaphor, it's simply not true. There is no policing of the list that I'm aware of. Andy's moderation was a public decision, as have all the other decisions I'm aware of. Voting for many things takes place on the wiki. If you feel that there are policies or information that are unclear, I encourage you to ask about them, or perhaps bring them up on the issues page mentioned earlier. Finally, I'd like to encourage posts to this list to remain on-topic, lest we devolve into senseless bickering. Thanks, Ben West From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Feb 2 11:10:10 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Feb 2 11:10:37 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <3644446B-2787-4079-91C1-A63B8C8EB87E@randomchaos.com> On Feb 2, 2007, at 10:22 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Second, why exclude anyone who "hasn't already publicly declared their > participation?" For the same reason I don't publish personal emails to me: I respect others' privacy. I believe it's their decision to make, not mine. > There is a culture of secrecy here that is the core of > my issue. Why such secrecy? Why should anyone be allowed to be an > admin > in this community if they are only willing to do so secretly? I don't believe anyone has said they are only willing to participate in the -admin list secretly. But a few haven't said anything at all, I assume because they're busy people. I expect they'll be happy to add their names to the public registry when they get around to checking their email relating to the volunteer position. Or maybe they'll see you've been calling them "secret police" with a connotation [1] that they would take someone away in the middle of the night to be murdered, and decide it was a mistake volunteering in the first place. Either way, give it a little time and I expect the published list will soon reflect everyone on the list. Peace, Scott [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police From doctormo at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 12:02:59 2007 From: doctormo at gmail.com (Martin Owens) Date: Fri Feb 2 12:03:06 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <3644446B-2787-4079-91C1-A63B8C8EB87E@randomchaos.com> References: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <3644446B-2787-4079-91C1-A63B8C8EB87E@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <69ff73b20702021202xa94917avbb9fba7fdd393fc8@mail.gmail.com> On 02/02/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > > I don't believe anyone has said they are only willing to participate > in the -admin list secretly. But a few haven't said anything at all, > I assume because they're busy people. I expect they'll be happy to > add their names to the public registry when they get around to > checking their email relating to the volunteer position. Or maybe > they'll see you've been calling them "secret police" with a > connotation [1] that they would take someone away in the middle of > the night to be murdered, and decide it was a mistake volunteering in > the first place. Either way, give it a little time and I expect the > published list will soon reflect everyone on the list. > Perhaps some sort of page explaining not only who is in a restricted group, why and how other community members can join may also be information that would put fears at ease. Do we have admin minutes? cat we read the logs for -admin? all of the interactions within the administration of an organisation even a sudo one need to be made public where they interact with the public. A page dedicated to who is banned, moderated, for how long and _why_ might be helpful too. Best Wishes, Martin Owens From bewest at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 13:17:28 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Fri Feb 2 13:17:34 2007 Subject: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation] In-Reply-To: <69ff73b20702021202xa94917avbb9fba7fdd393fc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <002701c746e6$455d18e0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <3644446B-2787-4079-91C1-A63B8C8EB87E@randomchaos.com> <69ff73b20702021202xa94917avbb9fba7fdd393fc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702021317x37f46489k58d6a759ca1e1eb9@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Martin Owens wrote: > On 02/02/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > > > > I don't believe anyone has said they are only willing to participate > > in the -admin list secretly. But a few haven't said anything at all, > > I assume because they're busy people. I expect they'll be happy to > > add their names to the public registry when they get around to > > checking their email relating to the volunteer position. Or maybe > > they'll see you've been calling them "secret police" with a > > connotation [1] that they would take someone away in the middle of > > the night to be murdered, and decide it was a mistake volunteering in > > the first place. Either way, give it a little time and I expect the > > published list will soon reflect everyone on the list. > > > > Perhaps some sort of page explaining not only who is in a restricted > group, why and how other community members can join may also be > information that would put fears at ease. > > Do we have admin minutes? cat we read the logs for -admin? all of the > interactions within the administration of an organisation even a sudo > one need to be made public where they interact with the public. > > A page dedicated to who is banned, moderated, for how long and _why_ > might be helpful too. > > Best Wishes, Martin Owens Martin: You make some good points... Can you add it to the -issues page described by Ernie? Thanks, Ben From john at westciv.com Thu Feb 1 16:51:16 2007 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Fri Feb 2 14:48:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> Andy, (apologies for the tardiness, I'm in one of those old fashioned, unconnected airomoplanes) > "me self" can't be anything but tautological; nor is it appropriate > when > referring to third parties. so: in English, it is tautological. But restricting the words to their roles in XFN and Atom, they mean quite different things - so I'd respectfully argue that the construction isn't in this context tautological. The third party issue (I take it to mean that you can't refer to an authoritative third party hCard for someone else using m, which is quite correct). I think that's a separate and more complex issue - how, if at all, can you link to an authoritative hCard for someone else. Is there a use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even less strict "detailed") hCard may be somethign that is very useful. > -1 > > but isn't this sort of voting better done on the wiki than in a > mailing > list? "rough consensus" - many more people see this mailing list regularly than visit the wiki frequently (I'd suggest) so for gaining a sense of rough consensus in a shortish timeframe (my original +1 was informal) the mailing list does seem to me to be an appropriate location for such straw polls. j From john at westciv.com Thu Feb 1 16:58:40 2007 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Fri Feb 2 14:48:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Andy, vCard has the property key - and so too does therefore hCard. vCard defines key (more or less, no cnnection this moment to quote directly) Specifies the public key or authentication certificate associated with the entity the vcard represents thanks j On 31/01/2007, at 8:41 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>, Ara > Pehlivanian writes > >> what if someone registers ben-ward.net and puts up a fake >> card on that site. > > Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key" property for hCard? > > ;-) > > -- > Andy Mabbett > > > Welcome to the 28-day week! > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 14:57:56 2007 From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian) Date: Fri Feb 2 14:57:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> Message-ID: <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/07, John Allsopp wrote: > use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup > speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog > etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even > less strict "detailed") hCard may be somethign that is very useful. If I understand the spec correctly, since a rel="me" is symmetric, shouldn't the hCard you're pointing to also be pointing back? If that's true, then the authoritative hCard will quickly get unmanageable since it will contain tens if not hundreds of reciprocal links to partial hCards (imagine if you're listed in several different locale directories marked up with hCard). A. From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:02:11 2007 From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian) Date: Fri Feb 2 15:02:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <923a87360702021502q188e2f2foa2aad72c3e4a4471@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/07, John Allsopp wrote: > vCard has the property key - and so too does therefore hCard. vCard > defines key (more or less, no cnnection this moment to quote directly) > > Specifies the public key or authentication certificate associated > with the entity the vcard represents So then that settles the issue of authentication. If a third party consumer that reads the hCard wants to validate its authenticity, it can simply use the key (if present). It could further match all linked hCard keys to validate the chain's integrity. N'est pas? A. From derrick at pallas.us Fri Feb 2 17:32:44 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Fri Feb 2 17:33:05 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <21e770780702020827s29da5c0ev5b560cae443ee756@mail.gmail.com> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <45C2190B.6030604@pallas.us> <45C29E93.3050506@pallas.us> <21e770780702020609q319ecc60h96ec84640f656f75@mail.gmail.com> <45C360FB.7090001@pallas.us> <21e770780702020827s29da5c0ev5b560cae443ee756@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C3E63C.9030004@pallas.us> Brian Suda wrote: > I get the feeling you want both the rel-tag and bookmark spiders to > index it in the > exact same way? At the moment this is NOT how rel-tag works. > > Do you have a specific use-case or URL you want us to look at? > otherwise we should stay away from hypothetical what ifs. No, I don't want those spiders to behave the same way and I don't think I've been unclear on my reasoning behind this or my use-case, which has been presented several times. I'd rather not have wild guesses; therefore: I, as a consumer of rel-tags, would like a way to know when the specificity of a rel-tag changes without having to write down and check a list of formats that change it. I'm not suggesting that we change the semantics of rel-tag, I'm suggesting that we add a marker that indicates where other microformats begin so we can tell when the semantics of features change. At any rate, Tantek said today that it is a non-issue that comes up quite often, so at his request, I put a section on describing his explanation applied to my use-case, that of blogrolls. And for the record: yes, I do understand the difference between normative and positive specification. ~D From microformats at 200ok.com.au Fri Feb 2 21:39:43 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Fri Feb 2 21:39:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [rel-tag] File extensions (was Re: Operator & AUMP bugs...) Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702022139t1c3a3690j38186012f15d4c7a@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Just pulling this out to a new thread, since it's a bit buried and confusing where it was. > I'm pretty sure I'm doing the right thing here: > - the last path component [1] > - ignore trailing slashes [2] ... > > Personally, but not off topic, when I create web pages I prefer never > to show the extension for HTML content, roughly inspired by this [3] OK, I need to ask this... can a tag path include a file extension? The FAQ poses the question but there's no answer yet. http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq#Tags_with_file_extensions I've had a look around and can't find a definitive answer - the wiki suggests that no, the tag target URL cannot end in a file extension. I'm prompted to ask since the new version of Blogger uses .html extensions on its "label" pages (why they didn't just say "tags" I cannot fathom). I'm wondering if this is valid. Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but the way I read it none of the current documentation actually gives a clear answer. I like definite answers over making informed wild guesses ;) cheers, Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From ryan at ryancannon.com Fri Feb 2 22:35:04 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Fri Feb 2 22:35:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [hCite] call for examples: language (Andy Mabbett) In-Reply-To: <200702021613.l12GDqnP005638@microformats.org> References: <200702021613.l12GDqnP005638@microformats.org> Message-ID: <0C0E6DBF-5097-402B-98E6-BDF8BAE35850@ryancannon.com> On Feb 2, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > I may be rare, but it does happen. "Mein Kampf" in English is still > titled "Mein Kampf" > >> So if the evidence confirms my suspicion that it's really rare to >> need >> to mark up the language of (for example) the book separately from the >> language of the words in the book's title, >> (And hence, drop the 'language' field from the hCite straw format?) > > I still don't think that that are anywhere near enough examples, > especially of non-English-language sources, to be confident that it's > not widely used. I'm going to suggest that a language field--for works where the title incorrectly implies the resources language--sits outside of the 80/20 for a citation microformat for a number of reasons: 1. According to our current evidence it's very rare 2. In some cases where it does occur (online resources) common HTML constructs (@hreflang) fulfill the need completely. 3. In many remaining contexts, language differences are unimportant for the user. E.g.: a scholar chasing the citations of a critique of French literature written in English will likely already know French. -- Ryan http://RyanCannon.com From sam.sethi at vecosys.com Sat Feb 3 02:27:25 2007 From: sam.sethi at vecosys.com (Sam Sethi) Date: Sat Feb 3 02:27:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XMDP Profile and OpenID In-Reply-To: <1f2ed5cd0702020512j4a2206abt52a2d635bb3de11e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f2ed5cd0702020512j4a2206abt52a2d635bb3de11e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009f01c7477d$e6615110$4001a8c0@SETHI001> Hi below is an extract from my blog header. I have used the redirect trick to have my blog url www.vecosys.com authenticate against my Openid account. It got me thinking how could I get my hcard to be part of this process. The simplest is to have my landing page http://samksethi.myopenid.com contain microformats which is why I think sites like www.linkedin.com or www.jyte.com might work. For exmaple if LinkedIn used OpenID to log me in and then linked that to my profile page. http://www.linkedin/in/samsethi that would be a good start as all of the LinkedIn page contains hCard and hResume. Bu how can we get my XFN network to link with my openid in order to create a "trust list" related to my profile. I was wondering if could point my or could I use I guess all I want is a way to associate my opeid with em and my network. MY CURRENT HEADER Thanks in advance Sam Sethi | Entrepologist | blog: www.vecosys.com | skype: samksethi | This email is: [ ] bloggable [ ] ask first [X] private | From brian.suda at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 04:33:56 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sat Feb 3 04:34:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [rel-tag] File extensions (was Re: Operator & AUMP bugs...) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0702022139t1c3a3690j38186012f15d4c7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0702022139t1c3a3690j38186012f15d4c7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780702030433l2421cdfbu4736985b2e8e422b@mail.gmail.com> On 2/3/07, Ben Buchanan wrote: > Hi all, > > Just pulling this out to a new thread, since it's a bit buried and > confusing where it was. > > > I'm pretty sure I'm doing the right thing here: > > - the last path component [1] > > - ignore trailing slashes [2] > ... > OK, I need to ask this... can a tag path include a file extension? > > I've had a look around and can't find a definitive answer - the wiki > suggests that no, the tag target URL cannot end in a file extension. --- the spec says: ... the last segment of the path portion of the URI (after the final "/" character) contains the tag value. What that string is, is irrelavant. It could be /file/my.pdf and the tag would be "my.pdf" it could be /downloads/my.big.file.pdf and the tag would be "my.big.file.pdf". A tag is everything after the last slash (unless the last char is a slash). So if that is a file or a folder, or a file that does not have an extention, or a folder that has a '.' in it's name. So YES it will include the file extention, there are no special rules for spliting/ignoring/etc on '.' or other characters. Feel free to add that to the wiki on the rel-tag-faqs -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From microformats at 200ok.com.au Sat Feb 3 05:50:46 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Sat Feb 3 05:50:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [rel-tag] File extensions (was Re: Operator & AUMP bugs...) In-Reply-To: <21e770780702030433l2421cdfbu4736985b2e8e422b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0702022139t1c3a3690j38186012f15d4c7a@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780702030433l2421cdfbu4736985b2e8e422b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702030550w67aca95clef160d6f8f4ca9cd@mail.gmail.com> > So YES it will include the file extention, there are no special rules > for spliting/ignoring/etc on '.' or other characters. Thanks for the answer, Brian... as I said, I had an idea about the answer but don't like to assume. As a note on this, this requirement of the spec means that Blogger's new version does not generate valid tags. This is what it produces: Anyone have a contact at Blogger? I'd be curious why they'd go to all the trouble of adding the feature, only to use an invalid implementation. Not to mention the weird switch between double and single quotes within the tag... > Feel free to add that to the wiki on the rel-tag-faqs Will do. cheers, Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From rbach at rbach.priv.at Sat Feb 3 07:43:59 2007 From: rbach at rbach.priv.at (Robert Bachmann) Date: Sat Feb 3 07:42:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: Logo quite similar to the microformats logo used on a SEO page Message-ID: <45C4ADBF.2040709@rbach.priv.at> Brian Suda on IRC: hm, this logo looks VERY familiar: http://www.mypagerank.net/ a square version of the microformats logo? -- Robert Bachmann (OpenPGP KeyID: 0x4A5CCF10) From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Feb 2 15:02:48 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Feb 3 10:14:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> Message-ID: In message <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com>, John Allsopp writes >> "me self" can't be anything but tautological; nor is it appropriate >>when >> referring to third parties. so: > >in English, it is tautological. But restricting the words to their >roles in XFN and Atom, they mean quite different things - so I'd >respectfully argue that the construction isn't in this context >tautological. "for people first" ? >The third party issue (I take it to mean that you can't refer to an >authoritative third party hCard for someone else using m, which is >quite correct). >I think that's a separate and more complex issue - how, if at all, can >you link to an authoritative hCard for someone else. Is there a use >case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup speakers >with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog etc. In this >case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even less strict >"detailed") hCard may be somethign that is very useful. I think you just answered your own question. -- Andy Mabbett Welcome to the 30-day week! From brian.suda at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 13:46:45 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sat Feb 3 13:46:49 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XMDP Profile and OpenID In-Reply-To: <009f01c7477d$e6615110$4001a8c0@SETHI001> References: <1f2ed5cd0702020512j4a2206abt52a2d635bb3de11e@mail.gmail.com> <009f01c7477d$e6615110$4001a8c0@SETHI001> Message-ID: <21e770780702031346r7554e195kc4ef912b597099fb@mail.gmail.com> On 2/3/07, Sam Sethi wrote: > > Hi > > below is an extract from my blog header. I have used the redirect trick to > have my blog url www.vecosys.com authenticate against my Openid account. It > got me thinking how could I get my hcard to be part of this process. The > simplest is to have my landing page http://samksethi.myopenid.com contain > microformats which is why I think sites like www.linkedin.com or > www.jyte.com might work. --- I agree that microformats are the best way to represent yourself, you should control you own data. The tricky thing is the transport layer. Somehow when OpenID send back the token to the site that has requested the verification it should also pass along this microformatted data or a pointer to it in some fashion. i think this is a great idea! you should email this to the OpenID discuss list as well! I know they are working on OpenID 2.0 and these sort of things are exactly what they are working on. If we can solve these problems with existing technologies everyone wins. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sun Feb 4 02:24:06 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sun Feb 4 02:24:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] The need for authorative hCards Message-ID: <21e523c20702040224i6c7f1362xbefccd99bdfeab0@mail.gmail.com> How beautiful would it be if when I was filling in someone's contact information on say, Google Mail or some new social service, I could just enter their home page URL and bang, their photo and public contact information were all just pulled in there. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From timber at lava.net Sun Feb 4 02:33:08 2007 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Sun Feb 4 02:33:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: > On 2/1/07, John Allsopp wrote: >> use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup >> speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog >> etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even >> less strict "detailed") hCard may be somethign that is very useful. > > If I understand the spec correctly, since a rel="me" is symmetric, > shouldn't the hCard you're pointing to also be pointing back? If > that's true, then the authoritative hCard will quickly get > unmanageable since it will contain tens if not hundreds of reciprocal > links to partial hCards (imagine if you're listed in several different > locale directories marked up with hCard). Indeed, it seems the "me" attribute from xfn may not be entirely desirable. Is it even needed for a "master"/authoritative hCards to recognize their children? -Colin From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sun Feb 4 02:45:19 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sun Feb 4 02:45:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702040245o399b11ccx30ebcf20b7f5457@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/07, Colin Barrett wrote: > Indeed, it seems the "me" attribute from xfn may not be entirely > desirable. > > Is it even needed for a "master"/authoritative hCards to recognize > their children? > > -Colin I can see a use for it. For example, I'd like to primarily identify myself with a single URI [1]. From that starting point, I could (for example) point to my own hand constructed hCard elsewhere or I could use a professional service, such as LinkedIn. On the authorative hCard, I could then backlink to [1] and this would provide protection against one form (and I know there's many others) of identity hijacking. Regards, etc... [1] http://www.davidjanes.com -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From timber at lava.net Sun Feb 4 03:01:01 2007 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Sun Feb 4 03:01:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702040245o399b11ccx30ebcf20b7f5457@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702040245o399b11ccx30ebcf20b7f5457@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2007, at 2:45 AM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/4/07, Colin Barrett wrote: >> Indeed, it seems the "me" attribute from xfn may not be entirely >> desirable. >> >> Is it even needed for a "master"/authoritative hCards to recognize >> their children? >> >> -Colin > > I can see a use for it. For example, I'd like to primarily identify > myself with a single URI [1]. From that starting point, I could (for > example) point to my own hand constructed hCard elsewhere or I could > use a professional service, such as LinkedIn. > > On the authorative hCard, I could then backlink to [1] and this would > provide protection against one form (and I know there's many others) > of identity hijacking. > > Regards, etc... I should have reworded: Is it necessary for authoritative hCards to recognize ALL their children? It might also be semantically wrong to put rel="me" on a link to an hCard that isn't on a site that's your own, anyway. -Colin From faaborg at mozilla.com Sun Feb 4 03:19:55 2007 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Sun Feb 4 03:19:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] The UI of microformat detection Message-ID: <25301E2B-54BC-4CDE-B382-A344DFBD575F@mozilla.com> I've posted a variety of conceptual mockups of microformat detection in Firefox 3 to my blog: http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the- user-interface-of-microformat-detection I would love to get some feedback on what designs you think work well, or don't, and if there are any other UI ideas I should be considering. Cheers, -Alex From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sun Feb 4 04:36:20 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sun Feb 4 04:36:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] The UI of microformat detection In-Reply-To: <25301E2B-54BC-4CDE-B382-A344DFBD575F@mozilla.com> References: <25301E2B-54BC-4CDE-B382-A344DFBD575F@mozilla.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702040436u10647966g884823b90e841c32@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/07, Alex Faaborg wrote: > I've posted a variety of conceptual mockups of microformat detection > in Firefox 3 to my blog: > > http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the- > user-interface-of-microformat-detection > > I would love to get some feedback on what designs you think work > well, or don't, and if there are any other UI ideas I should be > considering. Alex, Would it possible/practical to have a configurable "post this microformat" option. Then when I see a hCard, I could post it to a webservice that would accept it; I could post a hAtom entry to by blogging service that would preformat a blog post referencing it; I could send a hCal to my calendar service... Regards, etc... David -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From bewest at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 05:16:26 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Sun Feb 4 05:16:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702010733w25ec4dc8k46fd405901fea0d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> <39DEB0F6-C124-4A17-B8C9-FC44D7EF252F@w3.org> <21e523c20702010733w25ec4dc8k46fd405901fea0d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702040516n66a5687cife84a323fac8d161@mail.gmail.com> > > The specific class names are "root" class names. Non-root class names > (e.g. "title") only make "microformats sense" if they're under the DOM > tree of a root class name. The root class names have been chosen not > to conflict with known existing uses [1][2]. > > Regards, etc... > David > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles#Unique_Root_Class_Names > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#root_class_name > > -- > David Janes Exactly. In other words, instead of looking for an invisible profile attribute, or some marker in an ancestor, when a top level container is found, required properties are tested in order to determine whether or not the element represents what we think it is. instead of: function isMicroformat(element) { // returns a boolean representing whether or not the given // element is the root container of a microformat return isRootMFContainer(element); } the problem is solved by: function isMicroformat(element) { return isRootMFContainer(element) && hasRequiredProperties(element); } This (feature detection) is (or is becoming) a standard idiom that many javascript developers are familiar with, thanks to sites like www.quirksmode.org. Ben West From scott at janrain.com Sun Feb 4 08:48:15 2007 From: scott at janrain.com (Scott Kveton) Date: Sun Feb 4 08:48:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XMDP Profile and OpenID In-Reply-To: <009f01c7477d$e6615110$4001a8c0@SETHI001> Message-ID: Hi Sam, (sorry for the dupe Sam, Chris, Steve and Ian) > below is an extract from my blog header. I have used the redirect trick to > have my blog url www.vecosys.com authenticate against my Openid account. It > got me thinking how could I get my hcard to be part of this process. The > simplest is to have my landing page http://samksethi.myopenid.com contain > microformats which is why I think sites like www.linkedin.com or > www.jyte.com might work. We are seeing that most folks are using the delegation feature of OpenID to use the provider of their choice and to not have to run their own identity provider. Honestly, we've struggled with what to land at the personal identity page on MyOpenID.com. We didn't want to turn this into a place to put your public profile and then have something come up and have to back out of it. The folks at videntity have done some interesting work with microformats at your personal identity page and we're also looking at doing the same. > For exmaple if LinkedIn used OpenID to log me in and then linked that to my > profile page. http://www.linkedin/in/samsethi that would be a good start as > all of the LinkedIn page contains hCard and hResume. Exactly. This is another thought; allow users to redirect the content of their personal identity page to where ever they choose; blog, LinkedIn, etc. Then your OpenID provider becomes just that; the place you use to login on the Internet. > Bu how can we get my XFN network to link with my openid in order to create a > "trust list" related to my profile. I was wondering if could point my > > or could I use > > > I guess all I want is a way to associate my opeid with em and my network. Exactly ... This is the work that Chris has been talking about. In the past, there has been the idea of using XFN on its own to do this. However, you often get into the case that you may not want to share all of your hCard information with everyone. How do you identify who should be able to see what data? OpenID helps lower the barrier for users ... They could feasibly login to the site where you keep your lists and be verified to get access to more of that data. One of the most interesting applications of this is being able to build lists of your friends, family, co-workers, etc and then be able to 'share' those out to other sites in any format they would like. Now you could use those lists to do access control ... If you land these lists at your personal ID page, then the site that needs the information knows to go to your OpenID to get it ... Very simple and yet very powerful. OpenID is great in that it does solve the one username and one password problem. However, that's just the start. Its going to be the application of I-am-unique-on-the-Internet-now reality that will really cause adoption of this technology especially when coupled with microformats, FOAF or API's. - Scott From nickdrago at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 09:44:06 2007 From: nickdrago at gmail.com (Nick Drago) Date: Sun Feb 4 09:44:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] xHours microformat: hours of restaurants, etc. Message-ID: I started an exploratory discussion on the xHours (http://microformats.org/wiki/xhours) microformat, a format for marking up the operating hours of stores, restaurants, museums, offices, and other estabishments that have set hours and are open on a regular basis. xHours is closely based on the hCalendar microformat. I would like your comments and suggestions as to how this format can be improved, and specifically suggestions as to how we can work around some of the problems I encountered ( http://microformats.org/wiki/xhours#Problems) Thanks, Nick (http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Drago516) From costello at mitre.org Sun Feb 4 09:59:50 2007 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Sun Feb 4 09:59:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar Message-ID: Hi Folks, I have written a tutorial on how to express recurring events using the hCalendar microformat: http://www.xfront.com/microformats/hCalendar_part2.html I would appreciate any comments you have. I am especially interested in hearing of any errors in the tutorial. Thanks! /Roger From derrick at pallas.us Sun Feb 4 10:11:01 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Sun Feb 4 10:11:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] xHours microformat: hours of restaurants, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C621B5.7080306@pallas.us> Nick Drago wrote: > I would like your comments and suggestions as to how this format can > be improved, and specifically suggestions as to how we can work around > some of the problems I encountered. 1.) Don't call it vevent. 2.) A great place to start might be looking at how Cron (or any of its re-implementations) does recurring events. For instance, if I have a store that is open 9am-5pm M-F and noon to 4:30pm on Saturday. I could write
We will be open from 9am to 5pm M-F and noon to 4:30 Saturday
Essentially, state holds when any of the cron clauses matches. A colon indicates a range and a comma indicates junction. Some classes (year,month,day,hour, minute, second, etc.) would specify the maximum resolution, i.e. what the largest digits mean; e.g. every 30 minutes as opposed to every 30 seconds. ~D From derrick at pallas.us Sun Feb 4 10:12:20 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Sun Feb 4 10:12:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> Costello, Roger L. wrote: > I have written a tutorial on how to express recurring events using the > hCalendar microformat: > Oops, ignore my last email. ~D From nickdrago at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 10:22:52 2007 From: nickdrago at gmail.com (Nick Drago) Date: Sun Feb 4 10:22:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> Message-ID: So how would this relate to the xHours discussion? Could someone take a look at how we can incorporate some of the concepts in Roger's tutorial into the xHours examples? --nick On 2/4/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > I have written a tutorial on how to express recurring events using the > > hCalendar microformat: > > > Oops, ignore my last email. ~D > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:10:51 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Feb 4 11:10:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] xHours microformat: hours of restaurants, etc. In-Reply-To: <45C621B5.7080306@pallas.us> References: <45C621B5.7080306@pallas.us> Message-ID: <21e770780702041110v1e803611l7df96c70ae2164fc@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > > Nick Drago wrote: > > I would like your comments and suggestions as to how this format can > > be improved, and specifically suggestions as to how we can work around > > some of the problems I encountered. > 1.) Don't call it vevent. --- i think this is exactly the RRULE in hCalendar. Lets NOT re-invent new ideas, but better define the ones we already have. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:12:17 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Feb 4 11:12:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> Message-ID: <21e770780702041112y327ef5f6w6d0c6615c266d346@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/07, Nick Drago wrote: > So how would this relate to the xHours discussion? > > Could someone take a look at how we can incorporate some of the > concepts in Roger's tutorial into the xHours examples? --- rather than creating new formats like xHours, we should use RRULE. I don't think we should incorporate anything into xHours, but rather work on RRULE in hCalendar. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From scott at randomchaos.com Sun Feb 4 11:23:11 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sun Feb 4 11:23:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> Message-ID: <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Nick Drago wrote: > So how would this relate to the xHours discussion? > > Could someone take a look at how we can incorporate some of the > concepts in Roger's tutorial into the xHours examples? Looking at Roger's tutorial, maybe this? Original: Hours: Mon-Sat 10:00am-9:00pm
Sun 11:00am-7:00pm hCal: Hours: Mon-Sat 10:00am- 9:00pm
Sun 11:00am- 7:00pm But I'm not sure if that will work. Do times in dtstart and dtend get repeated, or are only times specified in byhour and byminute repeated? If the former, what happens when both are listed and they conflict? If the latter, is there any way to specify end time? Peace, Scott From chris.messina at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:47:51 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Sun Feb 4 11:47:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: Logo quite similar to the microformats logo used on a SEO page In-Reply-To: <45C4ADBF.2040709@rbach.priv.at> References: <45C4ADBF.2040709@rbach.priv.at> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0702041147qaac77a5q91e49451e552e734@mail.gmail.com> Indeed. This is clearly a confusing use of the mark. Tantek, any thoughts on a good remedy? Chris On 2/3/07, Robert Bachmann wrote: > Brian Suda on IRC: > hm, this logo looks VERY familiar: http://www.mypagerank.net/ > a square version of the microformats logo? > > -- > Robert Bachmann (OpenPGP KeyID: 0x4A5CCF10) > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From nickdrago at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:50:53 2007 From: nickdrago at gmail.com (Nick Drago) Date: Sun Feb 4 11:50:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: It looks like Scott's solution is good. It definitely looks easier than using Cron's recurring events feature, and much better than creating a new format. Does anyone who knows more about rrule know the answer to Scott's question? I believe this structure would work, but I wanted to check before I start using it. Nick On 2/4/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Nick Drago wrote: > > > So how would this relate to the xHours discussion? > > > > Could someone take a look at how we can incorporate some of the > > concepts in Roger's tutorial into the xHours examples? > > Looking at Roger's tutorial, maybe this? > > Original: > > Hours: Mon-Sat 10:00am-9:00pm
Sun 11:00am-7:00pm > > hCal: > > Hours: > > title="freq=weekly;byday=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR,SA;count=52">Mon-Sat > 10:00am- > 9:00pm >
> > Sun > 11:00am- > 7:00pm > > > But I'm not sure if that will work. Do times in dtstart and dtend > get repeated, or are only times specified in byhour and byminute > repeated? If the former, what happens when both are listed and they > conflict? If the latter, is there any way to specify end time? > > Peace, > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 12:13:03 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Feb 4 12:13:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <21e770780702041213y762cb856vcaed2ab8b17ce8f2@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > Looking at Roger's tutorial, maybe this? > > Original: > > Hours: Mon-Sat 10:00am-9:00pm
Sun 11:00am-7:00pm > > hCal: > > Hours: > > title="freq=weekly;byday=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR,SA;count=52">Mon-Sat --- the issue here is that WEEKLY is now hidden metadata. This needs to be pulled out into a human-readable form. > 10:00am- > 9:00pm >
> But I'm not sure if that will work. Do times in dtstart and dtend > get repeated, or are only times specified in byhour and byminute > repeated? If the former, what happens when both are listed and they > conflict? If the latter, is there any way to specify end time? --- DTEND or DURATION are used to terminate the RRULE, so this reoccuring event will only last one day. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 12:32:08 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Feb 4 12:32:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: <21e770780702041213y762cb856vcaed2ab8b17ce8f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> <21e770780702041213y762cb856vcaed2ab8b17ce8f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780702041232u49c695abra26f23c740a9198e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/07, Brian Suda wrote: > On 2/4/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > > Looking at Roger's tutorial, maybe this? --- i took some of the mark-up and tried to move it more to human-readable HTML. There are still a few outstanding issues. Such as Timezones. In the mark-up there was byday=mo,tu,..;byday=30 i'm not sure what was intended. It would be best if we have a single HTML mark-up and a corresponding vCard to compare what is marked-up with what is expected.

Pardon the Interruption

Pardon the Interruption is a TV sports show. It airs weekly Monday to Friday at 5:30pm ET on ESPN. The hosts of the show are longtime friends Tony Kornheiser and ... (hCard for Michael Wilbon not shown) They discuss - and frequently argue over - the top stories of the day in "sports... and other stuff".

-- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 14:46:22 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Feb 4 14:46:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on expressing recurring events using hCalendar In-Reply-To: <21e770780702041232u49c695abra26f23c740a9198e@mail.gmail.com> References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> <21e770780702041213y762cb856vcaed2ab8b17ce8f2@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780702041232u49c695abra26f23c740a9198e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780702041446n510930d6wf505f695fe2b4ea@mail.gmail.com> i took some time to see how Apple's iCalendar models re-occuring events which would be closest to store hours. The resulting iCalendar file looks something like: BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTART:20070212T080000 DTEND:20070212T170000 SUMMARY:Open Hours RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;INTERVAL=1;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR;WKST=SU END:VEVENT END:VCALENDAR The RRULE in hCalendar will need to model data similar to this. The DTSTART and DTEND are the begining and ending times on a daily basis. 9am - 5pm The RRULE has a frequency of weekly, and then BYDAY to show which days they are open. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From scott at randomchaos.com Sun Feb 4 14:54:15 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sun Feb 4 14:54:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Store hours with hCal (was: xHours microformat: hours of restaurants, etc.) In-Reply-To: <21e770780702041213y762cb856vcaed2ab8b17ce8f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> <21e770780702041213y762cb856vcaed2ab8b17ce8f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5DE7554A-E887-4A70-8FF6-7A7ECEFD818A@randomchaos.com> I talked to both Tantek and Brian about this in IRC. Tantek pointed out that we shouldn't be naming a solution until after we've researched the problem. In this case, it looks like the solution to this problem is hCalendar, so anyone looking for this in the wiki or email archive isn't likely to search for something like "xHours." For that reason, I've moved the page in the wiki and redirected the old page to here: http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours On Feb 4, 2007, at 2:13 PM, Brian Suda wrote: > On 2/4/07, Scott Reynen wrote: >> Looking at Roger's tutorial, maybe this? >> >> Original: >> >> Hours: Mon-Sat 10:00am-9:00pm
Sun 11:00am-7:00pm >> >> hCal: >> >> Hours: >> >> > title="freq=weekly;byday=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR,SA;count=52">Mon-Sat > > --- the issue here is that WEEKLY is now hidden metadata. This needs > to be pulled out into a human-readable form. I've collected a few real-world examples here: http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-examples I'm sure it would help to collect more, but from what I've seen so far, we can't expect publishers to explicitly state that operating hours are weekly. It's widely assumed that operating hours repeat weekly. I think Brian's right that we should avoid stuffing the entire RRULE in a single as I did above, but I doubt we can generally avoid putting "weekly" in an title. >> 10:00am> abbr>- >> 9:00pm >>
> >> But I'm not sure if that will work. Do times in dtstart and dtend >> get repeated, or are only times specified in byhour and byminute >> repeated? If the former, what happens when both are listed and they >> conflict? If the latter, is there any way to specify end time? > > --- DTEND or DURATION are used to terminate the RRULE, so this > reoccuring event will only last one day. I discussed this with Brian more and found this in the iCal spec: > The "DTSTART" and "DTEND" property pair or "DTSTART" and "DURATION" > property pair, specified within the iCalendar object defines the > first instance of the recurrence. Brian also exported a .ics file from iCal, which seems to confirm the following: Start first instance: DTSTART End first instance: DTEND (or DURATION) Start repetition: RRULE BYDAY (or BYHOUR, etc.) End repetition: RRULE UNTIL (or RRULE COUNT) So it looks like I wasn't too far off with my first stab at doing operating hours with RRULE, but we should still check this against some real-world examples. Peace, Scott From nickdrago at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 16:13:34 2007 From: nickdrago at gmail.com (Nick Drago) Date: Sun Feb 4 16:13:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Store hours with hCal (was: xHours microformat: hours of restaurants, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <45C62204.2090300@pallas.us> <715206E3-2314-4010-90FB-F6E49D8BB7AE@randomchaos.com> <21e770780702041213y762cb856vcaed2ab8b17ce8f2@mail.gmail.com> <5DE7554A-E887-4A70-8FF6-7A7ECEFD818A@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: The wiki has been updated. There are now two pages related to this discussion: operating-hours (http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours) and operating-hours-examples (http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-examples). operating-hours documents the overall discussion and will eventually provide the best way to use RRULE in this situation. Feel free to take a look at the examples page and try working on them. Nick On 2/4/07, Nick Drago wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Thanks for your help. I apologize for naming the solution; I'm new to > Microformats and will be sure not to do this in the future. Anyways, I > have been following this discussion closely. Thanks for redirecting > the wiki and creating the new page; I will be sure to update the > operating-hours page and adjust it to reflect what has been worked out > on the mailing list, > and I will add a few examples to operating-hours-examples. > > When I get more time I will start to take a look at how we can mark up > the examples. > > Thanks, > Nick > > On 2/4/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > > I talked to both Tantek and Brian about this in IRC. Tantek pointed > > out that we shouldn't be naming a solution until after we've > > researched the problem. In this case, it looks like the solution to > > this problem is hCalendar, so anyone looking for this in the wiki or > > email archive isn't likely to search for something like "xHours." > > For that reason, I've moved the page in the wiki and redirected the > > old page to here: > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours > > > > On Feb 4, 2007, at 2:13 PM, Brian Suda wrote: > > > > > On 2/4/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > > >> Looking at Roger's tutorial, maybe this? > > >> > > >> Original: > > >> > > >> Hours: Mon-Sat 10:00am-9:00pm
Sun 11:00am-7:00pm > > >> > > >> hCal: > > >> > > >> Hours: > > >> > > >> > >> title="freq=weekly;byday=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR,SA;count=52">Mon-Sat > > > > > > --- the issue here is that WEEKLY is now hidden metadata. This needs > > > to be pulled out into a human-readable form. > > > > I've collected a few real-world examples here: > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-examples > > > > I'm sure it would help to collect more, but from what I've seen so > > far, we can't expect publishers to explicitly state that operating > > hours are weekly. It's widely assumed that operating hours repeat > > weekly. I think Brian's right that we should avoid stuffing the > > entire RRULE in a single as I did above, but I doubt we can > > generally avoid putting "weekly" in an title. > > > > >> 10:00am > >> abbr>- > > >> 9:00pm > > >>
> > > > > >> But I'm not sure if that will work. Do times in dtstart and dtend > > >> get repeated, or are only times specified in byhour and byminute > > >> repeated? If the former, what happens when both are listed and they > > >> conflict? If the latter, is there any way to specify end time? > > > > > > --- DTEND or DURATION are used to terminate the RRULE, so this > > > reoccuring event will only last one day. > > > > I discussed this with Brian more and found this in the iCal spec: > > > > > The "DTSTART" and "DTEND" property pair or "DTSTART" and "DURATION" > > > property pair, specified within the iCalendar object defines the > > > first instance of the recurrence. > > > > Brian also exported a .ics file from iCal, which seems to confirm the > > following: > > > > Start first instance: DTSTART > > End first instance: DTEND (or DURATION) > > Start repetition: RRULE BYDAY (or BYHOUR, etc.) > > End repetition: RRULE UNTIL (or RRULE COUNT) > > > > So it looks like I wasn't too far off with my first stab at doing > > operating hours with RRULE, but we should still check this against > > some real-world examples. > > > > Peace, > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > From karnsj at cse.ohio-state.edu Sun Feb 4 21:00:38 2007 From: karnsj at cse.ohio-state.edu (Jason Karns) Date: Sun Feb 4 20:59:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Include-pattern issues Message-ID: <002e01c748e2$94ee6a50$0101a8c0@BRUTUS> I have two issues with the include-pattern, though they are less with the pattern itself and more with simply implementing it. 1) When using IE (6 and 7) there are many styling issues involved with hiding the object element. Simply display:none is not sufficient. 2) Many accessibility 'validators' will flag empty elements as errors if no fallback text is supplied. Should these issues be listed on the wiki under include-pattern issues, or on a page as special notes about authoring with the include-pattern? Jason Karns ~~~~~~~~~~~ The Ohio State University [www.osu.edu] Computer Science & Engineering [www.cse.osu.edu] From zen at zenpsycho.com Sun Feb 4 21:50:32 2007 From: zen at zenpsycho.com (Breton Slivka) Date: Sun Feb 4 21:50:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Include-pattern issues In-Reply-To: <002e01c748e2$94ee6a50$0101a8c0@BRUTUS> References: <002e01c748e2$94ee6a50$0101a8c0@BRUTUS> Message-ID: If I remember correctly, these issues can be dealt with by using an element instead of an object element. This is endorsed in the spec for the pattern, I believe. On 05/02/2007, at 4:00 PM, Jason Karns wrote: > I have two issues with the include-pattern, though they are less > with the > pattern itself and more with simply implementing it. > > 1) When using IE (6 and 7) there are many styling issues involved with > hiding the object element. Simply display:none is not sufficient. > > 2) Many accessibility 'validators' will flag empty > elements as > errors if no fallback text is supplied. > > Should these issues be listed on the wiki under include-pattern > issues, or > on a page as special notes about authoring with the include-pattern? > > Jason Karns > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > The Ohio State University [www.osu.edu] > Computer Science & Engineering [www.cse.osu.edu] > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From karnsj at cse.ohio-state.edu Sun Feb 4 22:04:02 2007 From: karnsj at cse.ohio-state.edu (Jason Karns) Date: Sun Feb 4 22:03:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Include-pattern issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004d01c748eb$7296fa40$0101a8c0@BRUTUS> > -----Original Message----- > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On > Behalf Of Breton Slivka > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:51 AM > To: Microformats Discuss > Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Include-pattern issues > > If I remember correctly, these issues can be dealt with by > using an element instead of an object element. This is > endorsed in the spec for the pattern, I believe. > > On 05/02/2007, at 4:00 PM, Jason Karns wrote: > > > I have two issues with the include-pattern, though they are > less with > > the pattern itself and more with simply implementing it. > > > > 1) When using IE (6 and 7) there are many styling issues > involved with > > hiding the object element. Simply display:none is not sufficient. > > > > 2) Many accessibility 'validators' will flag empty > elements > > as errors if no fallback text is supplied. > > > > Should these issues be listed on the wiki under include-pattern > > issues, or on a page as special notes about authoring with the > > include-pattern? > > > > Jason Karns > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > The Ohio State University [www.osu.edu] Computer Science & > Engineering > > [www.cse.osu.edu] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > That's correct. I meant for these issues to be more like notices when deciding between and . When I first started using the include pattern, only was supported. Luckily, Safari caused enough trouble that was included as an option. I meant to only add these issues as further reasons for using . From karl at w3.org Thu Feb 1 18:28:00 2007 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Sun Feb 4 23:56:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers In-Reply-To: References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> <39DEB0F6-C124-4A17-B8C9-FC44D7EF252F@w3.org> Message-ID: <2A18BD1C-8222-4A57-8256-43EE2FFCB2F5@w3.org> Hi Ben, Le 2 f?vr. 2007 ? 00:32, Ben Ward a ?crit : > On 1 Feb 2007, at 15:09, Karl Dubost wrote: >> hCalendar: "description", "summary", "category", "location", >> "status", "last-modified" >> hCard: "adr", "street-address", "email", "geo", etc. >> and plenty others. >> >> You seem to have missed the bit where I was saying that any >> mechanisms for switching being a specific class surrounding class >> names, a profile URI attribute, etc would be fine. >> > > I'm not sure I see the problem here. Those class names are indeed > generic and used all over the web, but they should only trigger > user interface enhancements when they are children of ?vcard?, > ?vevent?, ?hatom?, ?hatom? elements. > > UI would surely only respond to valid and complete microformats on > a page, not the sub-parts of them. should and would. I'm stressing this out now. As Mozilla was collecting requirements. I think it should be said in an implementation guide to not only trigger actions if and only if the appropriate *root* class names are found. It is something very similar to the well known location issue, squatting values :) > Again, unless I've missed something in the above, that isn't > necessary as those title and author class names are children of an > appropriate microformat parent element, so would be ignored by a > microformats parser. *would* > Please could you elaborate if I've misunderstood the implications > of your concern. I hope it helped to understand. Again nothing against it, I think it's cool if it's well done. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Feb 5 09:13:05 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Feb 5 09:12:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] roll call for Web Directions North - microformats session Message-ID: Who else on the list is going to Web Directions North or is in Vancouver, CANADA in general? There will be a talk on microformats: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north Please add yourself to the attending section: If there is enough interest perhaps we can organize a meetup in Vancouver. Thanks, Tantek From ryan at ryancannon.com Mon Feb 5 09:19:27 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Mon Feb 5 09:19:37 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [hAtom] syntax check--hAtom2atom.xml problems Message-ID: <500FC937-7008-459B-B9B4-0A0BA1D39579@ryancannon.com> Greetings all, I want to use hAtom to generate an atom file which I can then use to power Flash. I'm having some trouble with a few constructs. I'm using the libxslt included with PHP 5. Specifically the following: Should become: or at least
Also, the content of my div.entry-summary elements is not being copied. Anyone mind looking over my source and telling me if it's a problem on my end or on the software end? http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~rcannonz/portfolio Cheers, -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Feb 5 10:37:26 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Feb 5 10:37:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] [hAtom] syntax check--hAtom2atom.xml problems In-Reply-To: <500FC937-7008-459B-B9B4-0A0BA1D39579@ryancannon.com> References: <500FC937-7008-459B-B9B4-0A0BA1D39579@ryancannon.com> Message-ID: <719E4A75-730A-4E53-9C5A-8B3BFCF2E37B@randomchaos.com> On Feb 5, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Ryan Cannon wrote: > I'm having some trouble with a few constructs. I'm using the > libxslt included with PHP 5. You should probably take this to the -dev list, where Ryan King serendipitously posted about using PHP 5's libxslt to convert hAtom to Atom just last week. Peace, Scott From ryan at technorati.com Mon Feb 5 11:41:19 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Feb 5 11:41:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [whatwg] Profiles in-the-wild In-Reply-To: <45C255B4.3030001@gmx.de> References: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org> <1170326288.934.20.camel@galahad> <45C255B4.3030001@gmx.de> Message-ID: <934152DD-BAEC-4A7A-94AB-FE1B002AC1CD@technorati.com> On Feb 1, 2007, at 1:03 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis schrieb: >> Andy Mabbett wrote: >>>> I think there is a possible win-win here. The Mozilla UI widget >>>> could >>>> be activated only when the right URI (profile attribute) is really >>>> here. >>> What proportion of pages currently marked up with microformats >>> use the >>> "correct profile, and do so correctly? >> Presumably very few since most current microformat processing doesn't >> check the profile. Karl's suggesting (I think) that it should. > > So, when a profile attribute contains multiple URIs, and the > associated dictionaries overlap, how is this supposed to work? http://www.gmpg.org/xmdp/description#multiple -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Mon Feb 5 11:47:43 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Feb 5 11:47:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] xHours microformat: hours of restaurants, etc. In-Reply-To: <21e770780702041110v1e803611l7df96c70ae2164fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <45C621B5.7080306@pallas.us> <21e770780702041110v1e803611l7df96c70ae2164fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Brian Suda wrote: > On 2/4/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: >> >> Nick Drago wrote: >> > I would like your comments and suggestions as to how this format >> can >> > be improved, and specifically suggestions as to how we can work >> around >> > some of the problems I encountered. >> 1.) Don't call it vevent. > > --- i think this is exactly the RRULE in hCalendar. Lets NOT re-invent > new ideas, but better define the ones we already have. Yes, Brian you're right. Derek- the last thing we want to do is ignore an existing building block that would work. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From supercanadian at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 11:54:56 2007 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Mon Feb 5 11:55:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] roll call for Web Directions North - microformats session In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84ce626f0702051154i720c3363q25179f910224d236@mail.gmail.com> Wow... didn't even know this was going on in Vancouver.... And I live in Vancouver. (It would be nice to meet y'all in person... so I'll see if I can make it.) See ya On 2/5/07, Tantek ?elik wrote: > Who else on the list is going to Web Directions North or is in Vancouver, > CANADA in general? > > There will be a talk on microformats: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-02-07-web-directions-north > > Please add yourself to the attending section: > > ng> > > If there is enough interest perhaps we can organize a meetup in Vancouver. > > Thanks, > > Tantek -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ From steveivy at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 19:22:44 2007 From: steveivy at gmail.com (Steve Ivy) Date: Mon Feb 5 19:22:49 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN Test Data Message-ID: Hi folks, While working on figuring out how to help add XFN support to mofo (http://mofo.rubyforge.org/), I found it useful to create a page with test data for XFN. http://deliciouslymeta.com/projects/xfn/test_data.html This page contains links with all the profile relationships (per http://gpmg.org/xfn/11), most if not all of the two-component combinations, and most if not all of the invalid two-component combinations. Please looks it over and let me know if it's reasonably complete. I tried to keep compound relationship in the realm of reality so there may be some technical gaps. Let me know how this data set should evolve. Thanks! --Steve -- Steve Ivy http://redmonk.net From hober0 at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 09:43:35 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Tue Feb 6 09:44:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Looking for specific sugegstions for uF subscribable sites References: Message-ID: <86zm7rrxko.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> My lifestream, also based on Jeremy Keith's, lives here: http://edward.oconnor.cx/stream/ -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From aconbere at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 09:50:55 2007 From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere) Date: Tue Feb 6 09:51:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat In-Reply-To: References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80702060950k751d64beo6deab0bd8b1f8b0b@mail.gmail.com> I think yesterday I found the biggest in the wild example of someone using what could be a code microformat. http://search.allthecode.com/search/results?zequery=irc&bSubmint=Search ~ Anders On 1/31/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>, anders > conbere writes > > >I'm having a difficult time getting dialog started on this > > I sympathise with that, but take heart form the fact that you're not > alone - all proposals seem to move very slowly (which may be reasonable, > in order that no rushed decisions are made), with long periods of total > inactivity (which are of no help in that regard). Look at "currency" for > an example - I've seen not a single argument against being able t mark > up amounts of money with a uF, and there are innumerable use cases, but > nothing has happened for ages. > > Sadly I can't really help you with "code", as all my coding experience > is archaic, and predates the web. > > My only expedience of publishing anything like code on the web is with > HTML examples in the uF, and similar, wiki pages; I'm sure you've > already got that covered. > > Good luck, though, and keep at it! > > -- > Andy Mabbett > > > Welcome to the 28-day week! > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From ryan at technorati.com Tue Feb 6 10:57:36 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Tue Feb 6 10:57:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN Test Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C45847-8FCB-4339-AB1A-33962ED7E99E@technorati.com> On Feb 5, 2007, at 7:22 PM, Steve Ivy wrote: > Hi folks, > > While working on figuring out how to help add XFN support to mofo > (http://mofo.rubyforge.org/), I found it useful to create a page with > test data for XFN. > > http://deliciouslymeta.com/projects/xfn/test_data.html First of all, this is probably better discussed on microformats-dev, where we have ongoing discussion about and work on a complete test suite. Looks cool. > This page contains links with all the profile relationships (per > http://gpmg.org/xfn/11), most if not all of the two-component > combinations, and most if not all of the invalid two-component > combinations. > > Please looks it over and let me know if it's reasonably complete. I > tried to keep compound relationship in the realm of reality so there > may be some technical gaps. Let me know how this data set should > evolve. It looks rather complete, would you consider including it the general test suite? If so, let's head over to microformats-dev and discuss how to incorporate it. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From danda at videntity.org Tue Feb 6 11:56:46 2007 From: danda at videntity.org (Dan Libby) Date: Tue Feb 6 11:56:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Introduction, and announcing XFN and HCard import into Videntity.org Message-ID: <200702061356.46918.danda@videntity.org> Hello All, I've been doing a bit of work with the HCard and XFN formats recently, so I figured I should join this list and keep up-to-date with the happenings and best practices, and to let you know what I've been using these formats for. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that my site, Videntity.org, is the first to support portable profiles via both *import* and export of HCard, XFN, and FOAF formats. The HCard data provides personal profile info, and the XFN data provides a contact list. This is all tied together with an OpenID server/identity. I am proud of the new import feature in particular, as it allows one to synchronize and unify various online identities together, into one account. All imported data can be reviewed and optionally excluded. If other sites begin adding similar import capabilities, then it can become a 2-way sync. I'd like to invite you all to check out this feature. I have a write-up including a list of the tools used here: http://wiki.www.videntity.org/wiki/Importing_Remote_User_Profile I appreciate any comments, suggestions or bug reports you might have, and I'm also happy to share implementation details and code snippets with anyone else that might be interested in implementing an import feature. Finally, having gone down this path, I think that these formats can be a bit difficult to parse given the varied nature of (often very broken) web pages in the wild. I found that using HTML Tidy was necessary before I could even begin to parse most documents. This has likely already been discusssed, but I think that some standard parsing classes in various languages could help pave the way for other implementors. If such exists for PHP, I would appreciate a pointer. If not, perhaps I can refactor my code so that it is generic enough to be useful for others. regards, -- Dan Libby http://videntity.org From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Tue Feb 6 15:14:33 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (pmw57@xtra.co.nz) Date: Tue Feb 6 15:26:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Introduction, and announcing XFN and HCard import into Videntity.org Message-ID: <15037103.1170803673365.JavaMail.root@sf1434> Dan Libby wrote: > Finally, having gone down this path, I think that these formats can be a bit > difficult to parse given the varied nature of (often very broken) web pages > in the wild. I found that using HTML Tidy was necessary before I could even > begin to parse most documents. This has likely already been discusssed, but > I think that some standard parsing classes in various languages could help > pave the way for other implementors. If such exists for PHP, I would > appreciate a pointer. If not, perhaps I can refactor my code so that it is > generic enough to be useful for others. I don't think that we should place too much emphasis on fixing other peoples bad code. Browsers have been having to deal with bad code for a long time now, and only recently with the move to XHTML and XML has a change begun towards good code. If XHTML is to ever make its way to XML, then people are going to have to start using good code for it to translate across as they intended. If sense can't be made of their code after passing it through HTML Tidy, they should be notified as such and told to come back when their code can be made sense of. If anything less is done than asking for understandable code, we would be actively supporting the idea of too much bad code. [Rest of coding standard rant put on hold] -- Paul Wilkins From danda at videntity.org Tue Feb 6 16:58:51 2007 From: danda at videntity.org (Dan Libby) Date: Tue Feb 6 16:59:05 2007 Subject: [SPAM] Re: [uf-discuss] Introduction, and announcing XFN and HCard import into Videntity.org In-Reply-To: <15037103.1170803673365.JavaMail.root@sf1434> References: <15037103.1170803673365.JavaMail.root@sf1434> Message-ID: <200702061858.52598.danda@videntity.org> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 17:14, pmw57@xtra.co.nz wrote: > Dan Libby wrote: > > Finally, having gone down this path, I think that these formats can be a > > bit difficult to parse given the varied nature of (often very broken) web > > pages in the wild. I found that using HTML Tidy was necessary before I > > could even begin to parse most documents. This has likely already been > > discusssed, but I think that some standard parsing classes in various > > languages could help pave the way for other implementors. If such exists > > for PHP, I would appreciate a pointer. If not, perhaps I can refactor my > > code so that it is generic enough to be useful for others. > > I don't think that we should place too much emphasis on fixing other > peoples bad code. > > Browsers have been having to deal with bad code for a long time now, and > only recently with the move to XHTML and XML has a change begun towards > good code. > > If XHTML is to ever make its way to XML, then people are going to have to > start using good code for it to translate across as they intended. > > If sense can't be made of their code after passing it through HTML Tidy, > they should be notified as such and told to come back when their code can > be made sense of. > > If anything less is done than asking for understandable code, we would be > actively supporting the idea of too much bad code. > > [Rest of coding standard rant put on hold] I agree with your point. In fact, I was just this afternoon updating the Videntity import code so that it displays the Tidy fatal errors and also recommends the W3c Validator. The thrust of my comment was actually about what I perceive as a need for some classes that can parse these microformats, to make things simpler for the average webmaster/coder. I would consider cleaning up my parsing code a bit and releasing it, if I hear a few people with interest in such a thing. ( written in PHP ) regards, -- Dan Libby http://videntity.org/ - One identity to login with them all - Social networking between websites and blogs From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Feb 6 17:50:46 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Feb 6 17:50:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Introduction, and announcing XFN and HCard import into Videntity.org In-Reply-To: <200702061858.52598.danda@videntity.org> References: <15037103.1170803673365.JavaMail.root@sf1434> <200702061858.52598.danda@videntity.org> Message-ID: <019206D0-BF19-48A6-B30C-B0EFC4051C39@randomchaos.com> On Feb 6, 2007, at 1:56 PM, Dan Libby wrote: > This has likely already been discusssed, but > I think that some standard parsing classes in various languages > could help > pave the way for other implementors. If such exists for PHP, I would > appreciate a pointer. Hi Dan, See hKit: http://allinthehead.com/hkit See also the -dev list, where most of the parsing discussion takes place: http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/ Peace, Scott From chris.messina at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 09:24:59 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Wed Feb 7 09:25:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Introduction, and announcing XFN and HCard import into Videntity.org In-Reply-To: <019206D0-BF19-48A6-B30C-B0EFC4051C39@randomchaos.com> References: <15037103.1170803673365.JavaMail.root@sf1434> <200702061858.52598.danda@videntity.org> <019206D0-BF19-48A6-B30C-B0EFC4051C39@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0702070924w7db2ee52mcfef9a1e7e93a7a3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Dan and welcome. I've been following Videntity for some time and appreciate your support of microformats -- and would appreciate it if you would document your thinking and experience with regards to XFN + hcard. I personally think that OpenID + XFN + hcard has enormous potential for opening decentralized socialization, but I won't get into that now. I do want to support your call for the creation of microformat parsing libraries -- as there are many efforts underway, but could certainly stand to be brought together under a single resource heading. Indeed, the OpenID community has advanced considerably owing to the multiple platform- and language libraries available that make adding support nearly trivial. To do the same thing for microformats would, in my estimation, have the same stimulating effect. I don't know that I can do much in terms of coding, but I would love to see someone take up a sustained charge to see this effort through -- and to push microformat consumption and publishing across all the major platforms and languages now commonly in use. Chris On 2/6/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Feb 6, 2007, at 1:56 PM, Dan Libby wrote: > > > This has likely already been discusssed, but > > I think that some standard parsing classes in various languages > > could help > > pave the way for other implementors. If such exists for PHP, I would > > appreciate a pointer. > > Hi Dan, > > See hKit: > > http://allinthehead.com/hkit > > See also the -dev list, where most of the parsing discussion takes > place: > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/ > > Peace, > Scott > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From danda at videntity.org Wed Feb 7 09:41:53 2007 From: danda at videntity.org (Dan Libby) Date: Wed Feb 7 09:41:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Introduction, and announcing XFN and HCard import into Videntity.org In-Reply-To: <019206D0-BF19-48A6-B30C-B0EFC4051C39@randomchaos.com> References: <15037103.1170803673365.JavaMail.root@sf1434> <200702061858.52598.danda@videntity.org> <019206D0-BF19-48A6-B30C-B0EFC4051C39@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <200702071141.53382.danda@videntity.org> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 19:50, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Feb 6, 2007, at 1:56 PM, Dan Libby wrote: > > This has likely already been discusssed, but > > I think that some standard parsing classes in various languages > > could help > > pave the way for other implementors. If such exists for PHP, I would > > appreciate a pointer. > > Hi Dan, > > See hKit: > > http://allinthehead.com/hkit Oh yeah, I forgot about HKit for parsing HCards. I initially tried it, but I found that it was only giving me one telephone or address type, even if multiple types were listed. This made it impossible to distinguish between eg: Home Fax and Work Fax. So instead I ended up using the X2V XSLT stylesheet which converts to VCard format, and then using the VCard parser from PEAR. This seems to preserve all fields correctly. > See also the -dev list, where most of the parsing discussion takes > place: > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/ Ok. I'll post over there if any other issues come up. thx. -- -- Dan Libby http://videntity.org From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 11:32:21 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 11:32:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A98E64F-0638-4155-93D3-7EF5339D1ECA@technorati.com> On Jan 31, 2007, at 8:41 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>, Ara > Pehlivanian writes > >> what if someone registers ben-ward.net and puts up a fake >> card on that site. > > Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key" property for hCard? There's already a KEY field in vCard. From RFC2624: > Type purpose: To specify a public key or authentication certificate > associated with the object that the vCard represents. I'm sure we could make this work. :D -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 11:41:51 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 11:41:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> Message-ID: <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> On Jan 31, 2007, at 7:07 PM, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > If I have a parser that only knows (and only cares about) the rel- > tag format, it will be confused by people that use rel-tag for the > category property in hCard. It seems unreasonable that every > microformat should have to know about every other microformat, > especially when they are nested. Actually I think it *is* quite reasonable to make parsers know about every microformat. Microformats are designed to be easy to publish, even when that means that they're hard to parse. Simple economics show that it's much more valuable to make publishing low-cost, because the increased in published data will allow you to amortize the cost of writing and maintaining parsers across more transactions. Also, microformats are not designed to be generic or open ended, but specific solutions to specific problems. Requiring authors to add markup in order to make rel-tag's scope explicit makes it hard to publish the data and doesn't solve any real problem. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 11:50:21 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 11:50:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)] In-Reply-To: <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> Message-ID: <2C199191-1782-44DC-8C5B-E160141C6BF3@technorati.com> Sorry, I'm way behind on this thread. I wish I weren't but there's nothing I can do about that now... On Jan 29, 2007, at 5:50 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > Ben, > >> For my money, John Allsopp's idea to reuse rel="bookmark self" [1] >> makes most sense. As well as being gorgeously consistent with >> other existing microformats, it's also a completely graceful >> addition to existing hCards. > > thanks ;-) > > There's a lot of goodness to reuse from other ufs, for sure. Right, but there's also a lot of use to reusing things from the present microformat (hCard). vCard has a property called UID, which is defined as: """ Type purpose: To specify a value that represents a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated with the vCard. """ This is actually already in use by several large microformat publisher (eventful.com) to between venues in their events and the hCards for those events. It's been proposed before that using URL and UID together is sufficient for the things we're trying to solve here (I'm having trouble finding a reference in the archives). -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 11:52:11 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 11:52:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)] In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84DF96D2-5B03-4579-85EA-BB0C66781755@technorati.com> On Jan 30, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Chris Messina wrote: > Well, I certainly am coming to the party late. > > I actually started a post on this topic over a week ago -- and > absentmindedly hadn't checked on this list first before posting and > therefore published without the benefit of this discussion (I can hear > Tantek chiding me) but nonetheless, as the first half of a two-part > piece of transcending social networks (I have to write up the second > half still) I wrote this: > > Scoping XFN and identifying authoritative hcards > definitive-hcards/> As I'm sure you know, the scope of XFN is URLs, not parts of pages. To change this would be non-trivial and is not likely to happen. Plus, there are much simpler ways to solve this problem. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 11:54:36 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 11:54:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)] In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2007, at 2:28 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > Chris, > > (all the following simply thoughts in the spirit of brainstorming, > rather than any particular argument in favour of my original > suggestion) > >> I pretty much came up with a very similar proposal for handling this >> issue, though from the standpoint of XFN-links, and I think that >> John's suggestion is very good, though instead of using "bookmark >> self" might suggest "me self" for identifying the One True Hcard: >> >>
>>
Chris Messina
>>
Citizen Agency >> ... >>
> > I wonder whether hAtom had predated XFN, self instead of me would > have been chosen for the identity value? > > The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is "self: the > feed itself". The term "the" seems to indicate "definitiveness". > So, I was initially going to argue that "self me" was tautological, > but in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of > bookmark is probably tautological. Right, 'self' implies singular and is supposed to signal the URI (or IRI) for the feed itself, not an alternative representation or related resource elsewhere. 'me' just means another resource that represents the same person. > So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, and perhaps also suggest that > for hReview simply a rel value of "self" be required for the > permalink, for consistency. rel=bookmark is in HTML4, there's no reason to ignore it. -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 11:56:35 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 11:56:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> On Feb 2, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: > On 2/1/07, John Allsopp wrote: >> use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup >> speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog >> etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even >> less strict "detailed") hCard may be somethign that is very useful. > > If I understand the spec correctly, since a rel="me" is symmetric, > shouldn't the hCard you're pointing to also be pointing back? If > that's true, then the authoritative hCard will quickly get > unmanageable since it will contain tens if not hundreds of reciprocal > links to partial hCards (imagine if you're listed in several different > locale directories marked up with hCard). You're right, rel=me requires symmetry in order to be trusted at all. For this reason, and others XFN is not the simplest way to do Authoritative hCards. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From hober0 at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 12:00:48 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Wed Feb 7 12:01:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Authoritative hCards References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <2C199191-1782-44DC-8C5B-E160141C6BF3@technorati.com> Message-ID: <86odo5spov.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> Ryan wrote: > Right, but there's also a lot of use to reusing things from the > present microformat (hCard). > > > vCard has a property called UID, which is defined as: > > """ > Type purpose: To specify a value that represents a globally unique > identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated with > the vCard. > """ > > This is actually already in use by several large microformat publisher > (eventful.com) to between venues in their events and the hCards for > those events. > > It's been proposed before that using URL and UID together is > sufficient for the things we're trying to solve here (I'm having > trouble finding a reference in the archives). ... References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2007, at 4:06 PM, Ben Ward wrote: >> Chris Messina: >>>
>>>
>> class="fn >>> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina
>>>
Citizen Agency >>> ... >>>
>>> > > John Allsopp: >> The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is "self: the >> feed itself". The term "the" seems to indicate "definitiveness". >> So, I was initially going to argue that "self me" was >> tautological, but in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, >> the addition of bookmark is probably tautological. >> >> So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, [?] > > +1 from me as well. > > Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems from > anyone? Yes there are several problems: 1. XFN applies to whole pages. This means that you can't reliably put different people's hCards on the same page and do this. 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already using ... to do this. I apologize for being late to this discussion, but I think it's off track and we need to correct things a bit. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 12:09:22 2007 From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian) Date: Wed Feb 7 12:09:27 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> Message-ID: <923a87360702071209qd004ea3w530b773b266bf33d@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: > You're right, rel=me requires symmetry in order to be trusted at all. > For this reason, and others XFN is not the simplest way to do > Authoritative hCards. I guess the real question is, "who will be creating the partial hCards that will be referring to the authoritative hCard?" If the answer is, "the owner of the authoritative hCard" then the scenario is manageable and the owner can update the authoritative hCard at their leisure to reflect the partial ones created. However, if the answer is, "anyone" then the spec is impossible to support because the author of the authoritative hCard has absolutely no way of tracking all of the partial cards referring to the authoritative one. A prime example is if you're a speaker at a conf. and the organizers put together a simple hCard with your name in it and point to your authoritative hCard. Worse still, if a phone directory site marks up their results with hCard, how would you ever know to link to it? Which page would you link to (as results tend to have multiple views). The worst part of either scenario is the idea that your authoritative hCard will keep growing with all this unsightly references to lesser cards. It's a maintenance and aesthetic nightmare. I say we should find a better way of doing this. A. From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Feb 7 12:17:48 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Feb 7 12:18:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <923a87360702071209qd004ea3w530b773b266bf33d@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> <923a87360702071209qd004ea3w530b773b266bf33d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702071217y2f39d6aboc51de5bb6101abdd@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: > On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: > > You're right, rel=me requires symmetry in order to be trusted at all. > > For this reason, and others XFN is not the simplest way to do > > Authoritative hCards. > > I guess the real question is, "who will be creating the partial hCards > that will be referring to the authoritative hCard?" If the answer is, > "the owner of the authoritative hCard" then the scenario is manageable > and the owner can update the authoritative hCard at their leisure to > reflect the partial ones created. However, if the answer is, "anyone" > then the spec is impossible to support because the author of the > authoritative hCard has absolutely no way of tracking all of the > partial cards referring to the authoritative one. A prime example is > if you're a speaker at a conf. and the organizers put together a > simple hCard with your name in it and point to your authoritative > hCard. Worse still, if a phone directory site marks up their results > with hCard, how would you ever know to link to it? Which page would > you link to (as results tend to have multiple views). > > The worst part of either scenario is the idea that your authoritative > hCard will keep growing with all this unsightly references to lesser > cards. It's a maintenance and aesthetic nightmare. I think you're missing a stage: - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) - points to home page, using class="url" - home page, using class="something" rel="something-else", points to authoritative hcard e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. At most one back reference is required. Regard, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From jcraig at apple.com Wed Feb 7 12:26:35 2007 From: jcraig at apple.com (James Craig) Date: Wed Feb 7 12:26:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> Message-ID: Ryan King wrote: > Requiring authors to add markup in order to make rel-tag's scope > explicit makes it hard to publish the data and doesn't solve any > real problem. Hijacking a thread to mention another rel-tag oddity: Requiring a restful URL for rel-tag (though the ideal solution) is expecting a lot more of a ?f author than requiring authors to add a bit of markup. Ideal: Practical alternative for some cases (using title value): If the ugly URL isn't enough of an explanation, consider that front- end developers make up a majority of the converts in the area of web standards. It is not unthinkable that a front-end developer would want to implement rel-tag even when the server-side developer is unwilling to implement a restful URL. There ought to be a markup fallback. I didn't see this address on any of the rel-tag wiki pages other that the tagName-as-linkText solution with which I also disagree. Wanted to mention it here for feedback. Wot say you? James PS. Intro will come later. From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 12:32:38 2007 From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian) Date: Wed Feb 7 12:32:42 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702071217y2f39d6aboc51de5bb6101abdd@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> <923a87360702071209qd004ea3w530b773b266bf33d@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702071217y2f39d6aboc51de5bb6101abdd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <923a87360702071232o6dd952a1h372308c60e7f2385@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, David Janes wrote: > I think you're missing a stage: > > - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) > - points to home page, using class="url" > - home page, using class="something" rel="something-else", points to > authoritative hcard > > e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; > http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to > http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. > > At most one back reference is required. Is that the intended use though? Just managing the authoritative hCard within a domain? A. From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Feb 7 12:47:30 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Feb 7 12:47:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <923a87360702071232o6dd952a1h372308c60e7f2385@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> <923a87360702071209qd004ea3w530b773b266bf33d@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702071217y2f39d6aboc51de5bb6101abdd@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360702071232o6dd952a1h372308c60e7f2385@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702071247s550c1b5coe28a57fdd24005c6@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: > On 2/7/07, David Janes wrote: > > I think you're missing a stage: > > > > - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) > > - points to home page, using class="url" > > - home page, using class="something" rel="something-else", points to > > authoritative hcard > > > > e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; > > http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to > > http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. > > > > At most one back reference is required. > > Is that the intended use though? Just managing the authoritative hCard > within a domain? No, Ryan King could have his authoritative hCard on LinkedIn (hypothetical example). He still, however, refers to himself in his hCards as url=http://www.ryanking.com (real example). -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Feb 7 12:50:54 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Feb 7 12:51:03 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: > Yes there are several problems: > > 1. XFN applies to whole pages. This means that you can't reliably put > different people's hCards on the same page and do this. > > 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already > using ... to do this. > > > I apologize for being late to this discussion, but I think it's off > track and we need to correct things a bit. > Sure. Show us how it works with the original real-world case I provided -- i.e. your hCard on microformats.org blog, pointing to your home page, using your /contacts hcard as your authoritative hCard. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 13:08:11 2007 From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian) Date: Wed Feb 7 13:08:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702071247s550c1b5coe28a57fdd24005c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> <923a87360702071209qd004ea3w530b773b266bf33d@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702071217y2f39d6aboc51de5bb6101abdd@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360702071232o6dd952a1h372308c60e7f2385@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702071247s550c1b5coe28a57fdd24005c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <923a87360702071308l2df7024buafab0fba878913f8@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, David Janes wrote: > On 2/7/07, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: > > On 2/7/07, David Janes wrote: > > > I think you're missing a stage: > > > > > > - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) > > > - points to home page, using class="url" > > > - home page, using class="something" rel="something-else", points to > > > authoritative hcard > > > > > > e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; > > > http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to > > > http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. > > > > > > At most one back reference is required. > > > > Is that the intended use though? Just managing the authoritative hCard > > within a domain? > > No, Ryan King could have his authoritative hCard on LinkedIn > (hypothetical example). He still, however, refers to himself in his > hCards as url=http://www.ryanking.com (real example). Okay, but the only references made to the authoritative hCard are by hCards created by Ryan himself. Nobody else can create an hCard and use rel="me" (which makes sense). A. From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 13:27:59 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 13:28:02 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702071247s550c1b5coe28a57fdd24005c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <6DF6FC64-88D9-4606-9D6E-5AF649389E85@westciv.com> <923a87360702021457w24d750cch9a5e02519c7380ca@mail.gmail.com> <716F8D6B-8E54-42DB-A766-935C53178ECC@technorati.com> <923a87360702071209qd004ea3w530b773b266bf33d@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702071217y2f39d6aboc51de5bb6101abdd@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360702071232o6dd952a1h372308c60e7f2385@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702071247s550c1b5coe28a57fdd24005c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10950ADF-2E13-4CCA-A742-A1D21E153EB9@technorati.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:47 PM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/7/07, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: >> On 2/7/07, David Janes wrote: >> > I think you're missing a stage: >> > >> > - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) >> > - points to home page, using class="url" >> > - home page, using class="something" rel="something-else", >> points to >> > authoritative hcard >> > >> > e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; >> > http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to >> > http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. >> > >> > At most one back reference is required. >> >> Is that the intended use though? Just managing the authoritative >> hCard >> within a domain? > > No, Ryan King could have his authoritative hCard on LinkedIn > (hypothetical example). He still, however, refers to himself in his > hCards as url=http://www.ryanking.com (real example). Actually it's *the*ryanking.com. ;) -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 13:29:27 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 13:29:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Authoritative hCards In-Reply-To: <86odo5spov.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <2C199191-1782-44DC-8C5B-E160141C6BF3@technorati.com> <86odo5spov.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> Message-ID: <673E0E5C-5709-4B59-BDC1-E3A729C1D821@technorati.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Edward O'Connor wrote: > Ryan wrote: > >> Right, but there's also a lot of use to reusing things from the >> present microformat (hCard). >> >> >> vCard has a property called UID, which is defined as: >> >> """ >> Type purpose: To specify a value that represents a globally unique >> identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated >> with >> the vCard. >> """ >> >> This is actually already in use by several large microformat >> publisher >> (eventful.com) to between venues in their events and the hCards for >> those events. >> >> It's been proposed before that using URL and UID together is >> sufficient for the things we're trying to solve here (I'm having >> trouble finding a reference in the archives). > > > ... > > This feels right to me. Also, from an OpenID perspective, rel="uid" in > an hcard sounds an awful lot like "this is my id." uid goes on @class, not rel. It doesn't have to be on an anchor, nor must it be a URL. > [And yes, we (eventful.com) use rel="url uid" to point from a venue > hcard in an event entry to the venue's own (authoritative) page.] Actually you use @class. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at ryancannon.com Wed Feb 7 13:39:08 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Wed Feb 7 13:39:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> References: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> Message-ID: <88F32E03-E680-48A2-8161-0A139330A407@ryancannon.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 3:09 PM, Ryan King wrote: >> Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key" property for hCard? > > There's already a KEY field in vCard. From RFC2624: > >> Type purpose: To specify a public key or authentication certificate >> associated with the object that the vCard represents. > > I'm sure we could make this work. :D I prefer link[rel=pgpkey] in use since 2004[1]. [1]: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000325.html -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From ryan at ryancannon.com Wed Feb 7 13:44:22 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Wed Feb 7 13:44:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> References: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> Message-ID: <1D62329A-76B1-4893-8551-06BAB3FE9DB3@ryancannon.com> On Feb 7, 2007, Ryan King wrote: > 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already > using ... to do this. However, UID is not a field that takes a URL for its value, just a string, so therefore: Ryan Should be parsed as URL: http;//ryancannon.com/ UID: Ryan Right? So while UID seems like the right value to use, according to my reading of the spec, UID has to sit in visible text, and could be any sort of number--like an American social security number or a mobile phone number with country code--both of those are usually globally unique individual identifiers. -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From hober0 at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 13:53:55 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Wed Feb 7 13:54:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> Message-ID: <863b5hws5o.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> James Craig wrote: > Requiring a restful URL for rel-tag (though the ideal solution) is > expecting a lot more of a ?f author than requiring authors to add a > bit of markup. While properly implementing a tag space may be slightly more difficult[1] than other methods for some developers or organizations, I think the benefits far, far outweigh the cost. In the context of discussing how to represent tag in Atom, I recently blogged[2] that "basically, tag spaces are what make tags truly portable across the Web." By deploying a tag space you're following existing practice and helping your users discover more of your content. Ted 1. See #4 in the rel-tag FAQ: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq 2. http://edward.oconnor.cx/2007/02/representing-tags-in-atom#principle.tag-space -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From hober0 at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 13:59:11 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Wed Feb 7 13:59:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard References: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> <1D62329A-76B1-4893-8551-06BAB3FE9DB3@ryancannon.com> Message-ID: <86veidvdcg.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> > However, UID is not a field that takes a URL for its value, just a > string, so therefore: Perhaps this is addressed in [1] or [2]? 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/uid-brainstorming 2. http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-April/003726.html (See also the rest of the thread) -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From hober0 at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 13:59:56 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Wed Feb 7 14:05:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Authoritative hCards References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <2C199191-1782-44DC-8C5B-E160141C6BF3@technorati.com> <86odo5spov.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> <673E0E5C-5709-4B59-BDC1-E3A729C1D821@technorati.com> Message-ID: <86r6t1vdb7.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> Ryan wrote: > uid goes on @class, not rel. Yes, thanks for the correction. Ted From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 14:10:42 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 14:10:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] New new mailing list Message-ID: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> Ok, after much feedback, deliberation and procrastination, we've started a new mailing list, microformats-new[1] for developing new microformats. One of the goals is to keep this list (microformats-discuss) focused on practical matters for people working with microformats. Though who wish to research and discuss possible new microformats should take those discussions to microformats-new. Thanks, ryan 1. http://microformats.org/discuss/#new -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From jcraig at apple.com Wed Feb 7 14:21:32 2007 From: jcraig at apple.com (James Craig) Date: Wed Feb 7 14:21:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-tag title as tag value (Was: Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope?) In-Reply-To: <863b5hws5o.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> <863b5hws5o.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> Message-ID: <2BA3E0C2-9D2F-4D6B-B78B-D48027B811CA@apple.com> Edward O'Connor wrote: > James Craig wrote: > >> Requiring a restful URL for rel-tag (though the ideal solution) is >> expecting a lot more of a ?f author than requiring authors to add a >> bit of markup. > > While properly implementing a tag space may be slightly more > difficult[1] than other methods for some developers or > organizations, I > think the benefits far, far outweigh the cost. I'm not arguing that, and I certainly agree. I'm asking about an acceptable fallback for those few circumstances where implementing a tag space is technically?or more likely, politically?not an option. > James Craig wrote: > >> Practical alternative for some cases (using title value): >> >> >> If the ugly URL isn't enough of an explanation, consider that >> front-end developers make up a majority of the converts in the >> area of web standards. It is not unthinkable that a front-end >> developer would want to implement rel-tag even when the server- >> side developer is unwilling to implement a restful URL. There >> ought to be a markup fallback. Thanks, James From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 14:34:12 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 14:34:15 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:50 PM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: >> Yes there are several problems: >> >> 1. XFN applies to whole pages. This means that you can't reliably put >> different people's hCards on the same page and do this. >> >> 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already >> using ... to do this. >> >> >> I apologize for being late to this discussion, but I think it's off >> track and we need to correct things a bit. >> > > Sure. Show us how it works with the original real-world case I > provided -- i.e. your hCard on microformats.org blog, pointing to your > home page, using your /contacts hcard as your authoritative hCard. On mf.org:
Ryan
at http://theryanking.com/:
This site is the work of Ryan King
-ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 14:35:26 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 14:35:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <1D62329A-76B1-4893-8551-06BAB3FE9DB3@ryancannon.com> References: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> <1D62329A-76B1-4893-8551-06BAB3FE9DB3@ryancannon.com> Message-ID: <6696BE4D-3C7F-4F4B-8246-05B073572A67@technorati.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Ryan Cannon wrote: > On Feb 7, 2007, Ryan King wrote: >> 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already >> using ... to do this. > > However, UID is not a field that takes a URL for its value, just a > string, so therefore: > > Ryan > > Should be parsed as > > URL: http;//ryancannon.com/ > UID: Ryan > > Right? > > So while UID seems like the right value to use, according to my > reading of the spec, UID has to sit in visible text, and could be > any sort of number--like an American social security number or a > mobile phone number with country code--both of those are usually > globally unique individual identifiers. Indeed, in vcard UID is just a string, but my proposal is that we make it by default a URL. It's a simple change (which may already be implemented in X2V). -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Wed Feb 7 14:36:23 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Feb 7 14:36:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <86veidvdcg.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> References: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> <1D62329A-76B1-4893-8551-06BAB3FE9DB3@ryancannon.com> <86veidvdcg.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> Message-ID: <43C65B9C-1149-4F05-B47F-DD727379DA6C@technorati.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Edward O'Connor wrote: >> However, UID is not a field that takes a URL for its value, just a >> string, so therefore: > > Perhaps this is addressed in [1] or [2]? > > > 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/uid-brainstorming > 2. http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- > April/003726.html > (See also the rest of the thread) Indeed. I was trying to find those references, but failed. Thanks. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Feb 7 14:56:36 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Feb 7 14:56:41 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: > On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:50 PM, David Janes wrote: > > > On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: > >> Yes there are several problems: > >> > >> 1. XFN applies to whole pages. This means that you can't reliably put > >> different people's hCards on the same page and do this. > >> > >> 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already > >> using ... to do this. > >> > >> > >> I apologize for being late to this discussion, but I think it's off > >> track and we need to correct things a bit. > >> > > > > Sure. Show us how it works with the original real-world case I > > provided -- i.e. your hCard on microformats.org blog, pointing to your > > home page, using your /contacts hcard as your authoritative hCard. > > > On mf.org: > >
Ryan
> > at http://theryanking.com/: > >
This site is the work of Ryan King a>
And at the end-point? (i.e. on /blog/contact). The reason I'm asking is "what's the rule for determining if the hCard I'm looking at points to the authorative one". Both of these look the same. -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From michael.mccracken at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 15:08:20 2007 From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken) Date: Wed Feb 7 15:08:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] New new mailing list In-Reply-To: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> References: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> Message-ID: So, is the microformats-new mailing list now the appropriate place for discussing hCite development? Thanks, -mike On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: > Ok, after much feedback, deliberation and procrastination, we've > started a new mailing list, microformats-new[1] for developing new > microformats. > > One of the goals is to keep this list (microformats-discuss) focused > on practical matters for people working with microformats. Though who > wish to research and discuss possible new microformats should take > those discussions to microformats-new. > > Thanks, > ryan > > 1. http://microformats.org/discuss/#new > -- > Ryan King > ryan@technorati.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Michael McCracken UCSD CSE PhD Candidate research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/ misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/ From bewest at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 15:16:31 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Wed Feb 7 15:16:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] New new mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702071516s736d51acw17dea9810040e356@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, Michael McCracken wrote: > So, is the microformats-new mailing list now the appropriate place for > discussing hCite development? > > Thanks, > -mike Good question. My personal opinion is that we should kind of grandfather older stuff, while encouraging newcomers with new ideas to the -new list. I think some others will have other opinions. My feeling is that hcite should remain here; because hcite discussion has always happened here, it would be inconsistent to suddently switch venues. It's kind of confusing, which is why I never liked the name "-new" to begin with, however it did win the votes. -Ben From nickdrago at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 15:33:21 2007 From: nickdrago at gmail.com (Nick Drago) Date: Wed Feb 7 15:33:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] New new mailing list In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30702071516s736d51acw17dea9810040e356@mail.gmail.com> References: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> <8ad71be30702071516s736d51acw17dea9810040e356@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree; I think that we should use the -new list for research/ discussion of *new* ideas for microformats. It would be confusing to move something to another list that has always been discussed here. -- + Nick Drago + e: nickdrago@gmail.com + w: http://weekendcycling.com On 2/7/07, Benjamin West wrote: > On 2/7/07, Michael McCracken wrote: > > So, is the microformats-new mailing list now the appropriate place for > > discussing hCite development? > > > > Thanks, > > -mike > > Good question. My personal opinion is that we should kind of > grandfather older stuff, while encouraging newcomers with new ideas to > the -new list. I think some others will have other opinions. My > feeling is that hcite should remain here; because hcite discussion has > always happened here, it would be inconsistent to suddently switch > venues. It's kind of confusing, which is why I never liked the name > "-new" to begin with, however it did win the votes. > > -Ben From microformats at 200ok.com.au Wed Feb 7 15:53:47 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Wed Feb 7 15:54:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence? In-Reply-To: <000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001> References: <000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001> Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702071553u121894dfp7c33b575dcb2ef98@mail.gmail.com> > > Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat > > that could describe information related to the mood or the activity of > > a person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the > > web, or what they have been doing during the day, so it would be > > interesting to better formalize this information... I think there is a good idea here. I've read blog posts where the intent wasn't really clear because I didn't know the author's mood at the time. ie. is the author angry and really means what they're saying, but is perhaps not expressing it very clearly? Are they joking around because they're in a whimsical mood? Getting that sort of thing wrong on an email or blog post can have serious repercussions. > Could a mood not be described accurately simply by using a @rel-tag? > ? > Afterall, the mood and activity is simply added to give a blog post, for > example, additional context and this is the purpose of tagging. Well it could but it's not exactly in the spirit of tagging - ie. it's about the author of the post, not the topic of the post. The post isn't *about* being "happy", the post was written while someone was *feeling* happy. What if they blog about sadness while they're actually happy? How do you extract their mood from a set of tags including "happy" and "sad"? Of course the trick is then to make sure the mood indicator was clearly about their state of mind versus their mood about the topic. ie. "i am feeling chilled today, but this topic pisses me off" might mean hmood -> chilled, tag -> pissed off. Just some thoughts anyway. -Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From derrick at pallas.us Wed Feb 7 20:30:31 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Wed Feb 7 20:30:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> Message-ID: <45CAA767.4030602@pallas.us> Ryan King wrote: > Actually I think it *is* quite reasonable to make parsers know about > every microformat. This is not viable from a consumer perspective. New formats can immediately invalidate old parsers by changing the semantics the consumer expects without so much as an annotation in the definition of the affected format. (Incidentally, this is the same sort of problem Aspect Orientation has.) The decoupling of a format's semantics from the format definition has the additional effect that users may be struck by unexpected semantics. Formats like rel-license suffer from the same problem. > Microformats are designed to be easy to publish, even when that means > that they're hard to parse. Simple economics show that it's much more > valuable to make publishing low-cost, because the increased in > published data will allow you to amortize the cost of writing and > maintaining parsers across more transactions. > This is a straw-man. It doesn't make them harder to publish or add to cost by adding the meta "uf" (or "scope" or whatever) to @class for top level formats, especially to ask users (or generators) who are USING a format to mark where the format begins because (presumably) they understand that particular format. > Also, microformats are not designed to be generic or open ended, but > specific solutions to specific problems. Certain features (like rel-tag or rel-license or rel-*) ARE being reused, in practice; it is bad engineering to limit their usefulness. There is a problem; I know because I'm a consumer. When an issue comes up every three months and is brushed off as "not an issue" every time, that is dishonest. Potential consumers have found it to be a problem in practice; and yet, the current consumers think it is not a problem because they don't see any need. Limiting the usefulness of something prevents results in the wild, which stunts future progress. > Requiring authors to add markup in order to make rel-tag's scope > explicit makes it hard to publish the data and doesn't solve any real > problem. Again, straw-man. Changing a string from "vcard" to "vcard uf" or "xfolkentry" to "xfolkentry uf" is NOT HARD for the author of a generator. On the other hand, it is much harder for a parser to magically know all the current (and future) microformats. It does solve real problems. Yes, there are other ways to solve the problem; in fact, I do solve the problem in an unelegant way. My real issue now is (as laid out above) the resistance to real discussion of the problem. From bewest at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 00:01:13 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Thu Feb 8 00:01:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702080001u1369b875nce5d0861531bffcc@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: > On Jan 31, 2007, at 7:07 PM, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > > > If I have a parser that only knows (and only cares about) the rel- > > tag format, it will be confused by people that use rel-tag for the > > category property in hCard. It seems unreasonable that every > > microformat should have to know about every other microformat, > > especially when they are nested. > > Actually I think it *is* quite reasonable to make parsers know about > every microformat. > > Microformats are designed to be easy to publish, even when that means > that they're hard to parse. Simple economics show that it's much more > valuable to make publishing low-cost, because the increased in > published data will allow you to amortize the cost of writing and > maintaining parsers across more transactions. > > Also, microformats are not designed to be generic or open ended, but > specific solutions to specific problems. > > Requiring authors to add markup in order to make rel-tag's scope > explicit makes it hard to publish the data and doesn't solve any real > problem. > No one has said anything about any required mechanism, except for the unreasonableness of requiring a parser to know about every possible semantic available for a given encoding. The point is that the rel-tag spec lays out a contract: Scope rel="tag" is specifically designed for "tagging" content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts). ...that seems to contradict itself... If you need to define tags as part of a more specialised format, rel="tag" is the recommended way to do so, and xFolk, hReview, hCard and hCalendar all do this. The assumption here seems to be that when a microformat appears on a page, the subject matter of the microformat is highly correlated with what the page is "about" (whatever that means...). The justification given for this assumption is the historical record for "real publishing", and by concrete example, the book publishing industry. If this assumption is true, then the subject of the rel-tag is largely a non-issue. It's hard to swallow this assumption, because it seems possible, and highly likely, that authors' intentions are different. As an author, it would surprise me to learn that the categories I specify to describe my friend would also be understood by a parser to describe the page itself. This creates a mismatch between the functional model and the mental model of the author, and possibly other human consumers as well. (Human consumers aren't going to consider the page a subject of contained rel-tags, either...) When I explicitly publish a piece of information, I expect it to be interpreted within that context. When other behaviour creeps in, the integrity of my authorship becomes brittle. I agree with Ryan that this is an authorship issue, and disagree that it's not an issue. Authors should know that any rel-tag useage could be applied to the page as a whole. This isn't made clear in the formats that reuse rel-tag. Currently, rel-tag is difficult to use as a publisher, because the subject the tag applies to has become modal. Either we need to remove the modal nature of the subject, make it explicit, or provide a mechanism to control it. -Ben From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Feb 8 00:02:33 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Feb 8 00:02:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have explicit scope? In-Reply-To: <45CAA767.4030602@pallas.us> References: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us> <0A122EA1-6EAC-4EBD-A609-BED799FB8647@technorati.com> <45CAA767.4030602@pallas.us> Message-ID: <6C96C10A-BE74-4ACB-A4D8-78838F321F6B@randomchaos.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:30 PM, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Yes, there are other ways to solve the problem; in fact, I do solve > the problem in an unelegant way. My real issue now is (as laid out > above) the resistance to real discussion of the problem. I think what you're seeing is that microformats value publishers above parsers. Anything that makes publishing even marginally more difficult to make parsing easier is a non-starter. As long as parsing is *possible* (and you seem to agree it is), that's good enough for microformats. The theory is if we can make it absolutely as easy as possible for publishers, they'll flood the web with semantic content, and parsers will work through the difficulty to get that content. And you'll find plenty of interest here in helping through the difficulty. But not much in shifting any (not even a bit) of the difficulty onto publishers. That's just fundamentally not how microformats are designed. If you want a general means of consuming microformat content, just consume RDF. GRDDL [1] converts specific microformats to RDF, so any RDF consumer is effectively a generic microformats consumer. When new microformats are developed, they'll end up in RDF as soon as someone works out the GRDDL, and you won't need to update your RDF consumer at all. [1] http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec Peace, Scott From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 01:05:10 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Feb 8 01:05:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace! Message-ID: <21e770780702080105u4205308dla63a8581c62d5933@mail.gmail.com> There has been several emails here and there about the difficulties of creating tag spaces and that we should change the rel-tag spec. I completely disagree. Most of the issues stem from issues in blogging software, server software or hosting restrictions. All of these issues are out of the scope of the rel-tag spec. 1) you do NOT have to link to a tagspace on your own server. No matter what your setup maybe, you can ALWAYS use and link to wikipedia, flickr or other tagspace... that is never broken. 2) while i understand a given server setup might have limitations, that's not a microformats problem, that is your problem. I would love to have my host have the latest, greatest version of PHP technology. If they don't i don't go complain to PHP and ask them to back-port functionality to an earlier version. I buck it up and either move hosts, pay for the better service or co-locate my own box. It is silly to think that it is a problem with the specification. I am open to dicussing the rel-tag spec, but the current tagspace/tag is fairly well intrenched in the wild and has not had any problems, so i don't see an need to change the rel-tag spec just because one implementation of blogging software can't get it right. The better approach is to lobby the software/server folks to fix their implementation, or you can show your distain by switching vendors - not by trying to fix the spec by including a broken implementation. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 01:11:04 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Feb 8 01:11:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] New new mailing list In-Reply-To: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> References: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> Message-ID: On 07/02/07, Ryan King wrote: > Ok, after much feedback, deliberation and procrastination, we've > started a new mailing list, microformats-new[1] for developing new > microformats. > > One of the goals is to keep this list (microformats-discuss) focused > on practical matters for people working with microformats. Though who > wish to research and discuss possible new microformats should take > those discussions to microformats-new. > > Thanks, > ryan Would it be worthwhile to draw attention to this list on the blog for those that only follow that, or get just the digests? F -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From jcraig at apple.com Thu Feb 8 02:14:50 2007 From: jcraig at apple.com (James Craig) Date: Thu Feb 8 02:14:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace! In-Reply-To: <21e770780702080105u4205308dla63a8581c62d5933@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780702080105u4205308dla63a8581c62d5933@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian Suda wrote: > I would love to have my host have the latest, greatest version of PHP > technology. If they don't i don't go complain to PHP and ask them to > back-port functionality to an earlier version. I buck it up and either > move hosts, pay for the better service or co-locate my own box. It is > silly to think that it is a problem with the specification. Quoting from About Microformats: "Designed for humans first and machines second, microformats are a set of simple, open data formats built upon existing and widely adopted standards." This also implies they should be easy to implement. Co-locating your own box and rocking mod_rewrite can hardly be considered easy implementation of a "simple" data format. > while i understand a given server setup might have limitations, > that's not a microformats problem, that is your problem. Your taking the elitist way out. I believe it's a microformats problem to encourage adoption and to figure out a standard that will work for the most people. Which is better? A massive dissemination of usable tag metadata, or a smaller subset of tag metadata with pretty URLs? James PS. Nice change of the subject line. From microformats at 200ok.com.au Thu Feb 8 03:54:46 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Thu Feb 8 03:54:52 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> > The better approach is to lobby the software/server folks to fix their > implementation, Right. On this point, does anyone have a contact at Blogger? Support emails do not get individual replies so we need someone to contact a real live human. I mean, sure, I can keep banging away at their support form but their email auto-responder just isn't convinced by my polite inquiries. This is a big community, surely someone knows someone at Blogger/Google...? The issue is this: ...being the new Blogger's version of tagging. The existence of rel='tag' suggests a desire to implement rel-tag. The .html suggests that all Blogger posts will be indexed as tagterm.html cheers, Ben ps. yes I did ask this in another thread, however the response was crickets so I'm pulling it out into a new one :) -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 06:41:51 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Feb 8 06:41:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace! In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780702080105u4205308dla63a8581c62d5933@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, James Craig wrote: > Quoting from About Microformats: "Designed for humans first and > machines second, microformats are a set of simple, open data formats > built upon existing and widely adopted standards." This also implies > they should be easy to implement. Co-locating your own box and > rocking mod_rewrite can hardly be considered easy implementation of a > "simple" data format. --- i agree with all of this, and that is why microformats do not force you to use your own tagspace. There are plenty of sites that can easily be used as tagspaces[1]. You don't have to co-locate or rock mod_rewrite, but then you can't use that as an excuse when the alternative is to link to ANY tagspace. It is likely that most sites will WANT to create their own tagspace so we should certainly document problems and offer alternatives. But server setup is orthagonal to microformats. > Your taking the elitist way out. I believe it's a microformats > problem to encourage adoption and to figure out a standard that will > work for the most people. Which is better? A massive dissemination of > usable tag metadata, or a smaller subset of tag metadata with pretty > URLs? --- sorry if i came across as elitist, but that is my opinion. rel-tag is about tags, not how to setup tag spaces. I think it is a much better approach is to NOT change the spec to correspond with broken implementations. To encourage adoption, i would suggest (and many have) add to the wiki alternatives and ways to work around the limitations of servers and software. One of the biggest complains is with IIS. (i had a look on the wiki and it is burried) But there is software that can be installed on Windows to allow for the creation of Tagspaces. "More information on actually implementing a tag space would be helpful. I wrote a tagging system on our intranet and we run IIS. So I had to install URLrewrite (ISAPI) to create the URI /tag/tagname. We horrible Microsoft people aren't as lucky to have Mod Rewrite." Many of these should be pulled out onto a wiki page, so next time when folks say "My server doesn't allow tagspaces" we can point them to the wiki page, with alternatives, fixes, suggestions, etc. -brian [1] - http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-spaces -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk Thu Feb 8 07:31:27 2007 From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell) Date: Thu Feb 8 07:31:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMedia microformat proposal Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208105128.028f3818@pop3> Colleagues, I would like to propose a microformat to describe media files and media streams. In particular, groups of files or streams which represent the same content but with different encoding formats. A suitable starting point for this could be Media RSS (http://search.yahoo.com/mrss). I've drafted a problem statement below and would welcome comments, particularly from anyone involved in the publication of A/V media. Cheers, Chris Problem statement: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When a media file or a media stream is published it is often made available in different encoding formats and at different bit-rates. In the case of live content there may also be a choice between unicast and multicast streams. A web page listing a single item of content may therefore present a large choice of links to the user, each of which is typically described by a set of human readable parameters. Currently none of these parameters is machine readable. There is also no machine readable information to indicate that the set of files or streams carry the same content. Applications: ~~~~~~~~~ Browsers and media players have a knowledge of what encoding formats they can accept and may have a knowledge of the bandwidth available to the user. If they are provided with a set of file or stream parameters they could select the most appropriate choice for the user. Robotic agents which catalogue A/V content would be able to recognise that a set of links represent the same content but with different encodings etc. -------------------------- Chris Newell Lead Technologist BBC Research From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 08:05:51 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Feb 8 08:05:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMedia microformat proposal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208105128.028f3818@pop3> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208105128.028f3818@pop3> Message-ID: <21e770780702080805s11831700p80a14e25141cb3d8@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Chris Newell wrote: > Colleagues, > > I would like to propose a microformat to describe media files and media streams. In particular, groups of files or streams which represent the same content but with different encoding formats. > > A suitable starting point for this could be Media RSS (http://search.yahoo.com/mrss). Firstly, we have a new mailing list for new formats: http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new/ secondly, i have looked at mrss in the past. (To me) It is just RSS with a few additional elements. I would suggest that you look into hAtom and use the built in semantics of HTML and use the rel="alternative" for the different formats, and then the element's TYPE attribute to describe the media type. This is done already in XOXO->OPML with a TYPE attribute of "application/rss" -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From newsletter at 2000grad.com Thu Feb 8 08:13:18 2007 From: newsletter at 2000grad.com (NewsAgent 2000grad) Date: Thu Feb 8 08:12:27 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <5A98E64F-0638-4155-93D3-7EF5339D1ECA@technorati.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> <5A98E64F-0638-4155-93D3-7EF5339D1ECA@technorati.com> Message-ID: <45CB4C1E.8010507@2000grad.com> Hello, my name is Henrich C. Poehls, I have been reading the list for quite some while now, without writing. It has been very interesting to see that the topic of authoritative hcards led the discussion to the topic of trust and Digital Signatures. >> Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key" property for hCard? > > There's already a KEY field in vCard. From RFC2624: > >> Type purpose: To specify a public key or authentication certificate >> associated with the object that the vCard represents. > > I'm sure we could make this work. :D > > -ryan > -- > Ryan King > ryan@technorati.com In fact, I already did some work in the direction of Signed Microformatted Content and thought it might be a good time to start a discussion about my thoughts. For a Microformats process, however no real world examples using such a thing like digitally signed content on webpages exist, yet. But I believe there are some good uses for a Microformat for Digital Signatures (this might also solve the problem of MD5 Hashes discussed some time before). A short overview of a proposed structure can be found on my page [1]. I am happy about comments, maybe here or maybe in the new microformats-new, to which I just subscribed. Henrich [1] http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/SVS/personnel/henrich/hsig.php From newsletter at 2000grad.com Thu Feb 8 08:22:14 2007 From: newsletter at 2000grad.com (NewsAgent 2000grad) Date: Thu Feb 8 08:21:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <88F32E03-E680-48A2-8161-0A139330A407@ryancannon.com> References: <200702072009.l17K9UWK007806@microformats.org> <88F32E03-E680-48A2-8161-0A139330A407@ryancannon.com> Message-ID: <45CB4E36.3080306@2000grad.com> Ryan Cannon said on Date: 02/07/2007 10:39:08 PM +0100 > On Feb 7, 2007, at 3:09 PM, Ryan King wrote: >>> Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key" property for hCard? >> >> There's already a KEY field in vCard. From RFC2624: >> >>> Type purpose: To specify a public key or authentication certificate >>> associated with the object that the vCard represents. >> >> I'm sure we could make this work. :D > > I prefer link[rel=pgpkey] in use since 2004[1]. Hello, as far as I understood the vcard's key field or rel=pgpkey can be used to store or link to the key of the person in question. But it can not be used to actually judge the authenticity of the hcard itself. For example a digital signature over Microformatted content could solve that problem quite eleganlty in my opinion. An example, perhaps a proposal for the new list: A Microformat for Digital Signatures [1] that allows to digitally sign other Microformats and itself store the Digital Signature in a Microformatted way. I am happy for suggestions. Cheers, Henrich C. Poehls [1] http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/SVS/personnel/henrich/hsig.php From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk Thu Feb 8 08:30:39 2007 From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell) Date: Thu Feb 8 08:30:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMedia microformat proposal In-Reply-To: <21e770780702080805s11831700p80a14e25141cb3d8@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208105128.028f3818@pop3> <21e770780702080805s11831700p80a14e25141cb3d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208161454.02994f48@pop3> At 16:05 08/02/2007, Brian Suda wrote: >On 2/8/07, Chris Newell wrote: >>Colleagues, >> >>I would like to propose a microformat to describe media files and media streams. In particular, groups of files or streams which represent the same content but with different encoding formats. >> >>A suitable starting point for this could be Media RSS (http://search.yahoo.com/mrss). > >Firstly, we have a new mailing list for new formats: >http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new/ Apologies. I've also found there is a "Media Info" microformat proposal that encompasses this requirement but has greater overall scope. It looks like it could be a major task. >secondly, i have looked at mrss in the past. (To me) It is just RSS >with a few additional elements. I would suggest that you look into >hAtom and use the built in semantics of HTML and use the >rel="alternative" for the different formats, and then the >element's TYPE attribute to describe the media type. This is done >already in XOXO->OPML with a TYPE attribute of "application/rss" Thanks - this is all useful. However TYPE can't convey all the information needed such as bit-rate. Chris From derrick at pallas.us Thu Feb 8 08:42:36 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Thu Feb 8 08:42:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMedia microformat proposal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208161454.02994f48@pop3> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208105128.028f3818@pop3> <21e770780702080805s11831700p80a14e25141cb3d8@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070208161454.02994f48@pop3> Message-ID: <45CB52FC.9040703@pallas.us> Chris Newell wrote: > Thanks - this is all useful. However TYPE can't convey all the information needed such as bit-rate. > > Chris > HTTP Content-Type does this by putting the MIME type first, followed by a semi-colon, followed by key value pairs. Usually, I only see "text/html;charset=utf-8". According to there can be many semi-color separated parameters following the MIME type including key=value pairs. ~D From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 08:45:51 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Feb 8 08:45:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hMedia microformat proposal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208161454.02994f48@pop3> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070208105128.028f3818@pop3> <21e770780702080805s11831700p80a14e25141cb3d8@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070208161454.02994f48@pop3> Message-ID: <21e770780702080845o5022f991sa7b3a6afc71d3fdd@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Chris Newell wrote: > >Firstly, we have a new mailing list for new formats: > >http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new/ > > Apologies. > > I've also found there is a "Media Info" microformat proposal that encompasses this requirement but has greater overall scope. It looks like it could be a major task. --- not a problem, the list is less than 24 hours old, so the next few proposals to this list will need to be coraled to the new list. Older format suggestions that never gaimed much tractions, such as "Media Info" should be discussed to the new list as well. > Thanks - this is all useful. However TYPE can't convey all the information needed such as bit-rate. You are correct. These are things that need to be gathered from real-world examples. Bit-rate might be important for you and me, but in the real-world enviornment as long as RSS readers download/display/play-back the files the average joe doesn't really care about the bit-rate. I think once we take this concept to the new list we can step this concept through the microformats-process. One of the first steps before creating a new proposal is to implement them yourself and to do as much with the existing formats and HTML semantics. Then if there are problems that can NOT be solved we can discuss them and see where to go from there. I think we should move this dicussion to the new list and continue it there. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From bewest at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 10:36:59 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Thu Feb 8 10:37:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] New new mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> Message-ID: <8ad71be30702081036y67b06878ude7e67ac009c9c85@mail.gmail.com> > Would it be worthwhile to draw attention to this list on the blog for > those that only follow that, or get just the digests? > > F > -- > Frances Berriman > http://fberriman.com Frances, Good idea. MF blog: http://microformats.org/blog/2007/02/08/new-mailing-list/ my blog: http://bewest.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/microformats-new-mailing-list/ -Ben From ryan at technorati.com Thu Feb 8 10:57:03 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Feb 8 10:57:07 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com> <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> On Feb 7, 2007, at 2:56 PM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: >> On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:50 PM, David Janes wrote: >> >> > On 2/7/07, Ryan King wrote: >> >> Yes there are several problems: >> >> >> >> 1. XFN applies to whole pages. This means that you can't >> reliably put >> >> different people's hCards on the same page and do this. >> >> >> >> 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already >> >> using ... to do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> I apologize for being late to this discussion, but I think it's >> off >> >> track and we need to correct things a bit. >> >> >> > >> > Sure. Show us how it works with the original real-world case I >> > provided -- i.e. your hCard on microformats.org blog, pointing >> to your >> > home page, using your /contacts hcard as your authoritative hCard. >> >> >> On mf.org: >> >>
Ryan
>> >> at http://theryanking.com/: >> >>
This site is the work of Ryan King> a>
> > And at the end-point? (i.e. on /blog/contact). The reason I'm asking > is "what's the rule for determining if the hCard I'm looking at points > to the authorative one". Both of these look the same. Nothing special is needed at /blog/contact/. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 8 11:02:13 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 8 11:02:17 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Ryan King wrote: > Nothing special is needed at /blog/contact/. > > -ryan But that's the authoritative hCard. What's the algorithm (or heuristic) that I follow if I'm a parser looking at the blog at microformats.org, see your partial hCard and try to find your authoritative hCard? Sorry if this sounds pedantic, I'm not trying to be. There's some assumption in what you're saying that I'm not getting. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From ryan at technorati.com Thu Feb 8 11:17:40 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Feb 8 11:17:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] New new mailing list In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30702071516s736d51acw17dea9810040e356@mail.gmail.com> References: <93686464-24BE-478D-A6ED-627945FFB6D2@technorati.com> <8ad71be30702071516s736d51acw17dea9810040e356@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Benjamin West wrote: > On 2/7/07, Michael McCracken wrote: >> So, is the microformats-new mailing list now the appropriate place >> for >> discussing hCite development? > > Good question. My personal opinion is that we should kind of > grandfather older stuff, while encouraging newcomers with new ideas to > the -new list. I think some others will have other opinions. My > feeling is that hcite should remain here; because hcite discussion has > always happened here, it would be inconsistent to suddently switch > venues. It's kind of confusing, which is why I never liked the name > "-new" to begin with, however it did win the votes. I know it's a pain to move a discussion from one mailing list to another. Personally I wouldn't mind if current discussions remain on this list, but I think moving them would be good for the community. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Feb 8 11:38:31 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Feb 8 11:38:50 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> On 8 Feb 2007, at 19:02, David Janes wrote: > On 2/8/07, Ryan King wrote: >> Nothing special is needed at /blog/contact/. >> >> -ryan > > But that's the authoritative hCard. [?] > > Sorry if this sounds pedantic, I'm not trying to be. There's some > assumption in what you're saying that I'm not getting. The difference in interpretation is this: You're looking to describe the *one true hcard*, to rule them all, bind them in the darkness and so on and so forth. What Ryan is describing is *relative*. So linking with UID from one small hcard in the footer of ben-ward.co.uk to a larger, more complete hcard at ben-ward.co.uk/about is saying, very simply: ?/ about is the authoritative hcard _of this hcard_?. Now, to step back into this discussion after a little break, this use of UID solves *my* problem; a way to point from small snippet hCards that contain name/URL to larger ones which contain comprehensive contact details. I'm not trying to rule Middle Earth, just to say ?there's a more comprehensive hcard over here?. And for me, this would do the trick very nicely. Of course, there's nothing to stop me linking _that_ ?/about? hCard to another one somewhere else; such practice should not be disallowed. But at this point, that could be getting out of 80:20. Regards, Ben From costello at mitre.org Thu Feb 8 11:41:38 2007 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Thu Feb 8 11:41:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Puzzled about the value of XOXO Message-ID: Hi Folks, I have read the Wiki on XOXO and as I understand it, the XOXO microformat has no properties, it is simply a classname to be used at the top of a list, e.g.,
  • ...
  • ...
  • ...
Question #1 Is that all there is to the XOXO microformat? I am puzzled how the XOXO microformat helps enrich the semantics of the list. After all, the "ul" indicates it's a list. The XOXO doesn't add any new information. Question #2 What is the value of XOXO? /Roger From drernie at opendarwin.org Thu Feb 8 11:51:44 2007 From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar) Date: Thu Feb 8 11:51:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Puzzled about the value of XOXO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CD0BEF2-53E1-441F-8969-60DB604DA463@opendarwin.org> Hi Roger, The point of XOXO is that you can trivially encode arrays and dictionaries in straight HTML. In particular, you can use it as an alternative to, e.g., JSON, for generic data structures: http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/datatypes Somebody's even written a whole blog about such uses: http://blogxoxo.blogspot.com/ Sure, the fact that something is a list may seem like a trivial semantic to you, but it is quite powerful in the right context. Hope this helps, -- Ernie P. On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I have read the Wiki on XOXO and as I understand it, the XOXO > microformat has no properties, it is simply a classname to be used at > the top of a list, e.g., > >
    >
  • ...
    • >
  • ...
    • >
  • ...
    • >
> > Question #1 > > Is that all there is to the XOXO microformat? > > I am puzzled how the XOXO microformat helps enrich the semantics of > the > list. After all, the "ul" indicates it's a list. The XOXO doesn't > add > any new information. > > Question #2 > > What is the value of XOXO? > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 8 12:00:33 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 8 12:00:38 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Ben Ward wrote: > > On 8 Feb 2007, at 19:02, David Janes wrote: > > On 2/8/07, Ryan King wrote: > >> Nothing special is needed at /blog/contact/. > >> > >> -ryan > > > > But that's the authoritative hCard. [?] > > > > > > Sorry if this sounds pedantic, I'm not trying to be. There's some > > assumption in what you're saying that I'm not getting. > > The difference in interpretation is this: You're looking to describe > the *one true hcard*, to rule them all, bind them in the darkness and > so on and so forth. No no no. I'm looking for the set of rules a consumer has to follow to get from Ryan's hCard on microformats.org to his authoritative hCard at *the*ryanking/contact. -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Feb 8 13:50:06 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Feb 8 13:50:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritative hCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com> On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:00 PM, David Janes wrote: > No no no. I'm looking for the set of rules a consumer has to follow to > get from Ryan's hCard on microformats.org to his authoritative hCard > at *the*ryanking/contact. I thought Ryan already answer that: On Feb 7, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Ryan King wrote: > On mf.org: > >
Ryan
> > at http://theryanking.com/: > >
This site is the work of Ryan King a>
So as I understand that, the rules for getting the most authoritative hCard for a given URL are: 1) parse hCard at current URL 2) If the hCard includes , load the URL in the href, and return to step 1. When the consumer gets to http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard and finds no , it stops there and that's his authoritative hCard. Peace, Scott From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 8 14:23:54 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 8 14:24:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritative hCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> <1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > So as I understand that, the rules for getting the most authoritative > hCard for a given URL are: > > 1) parse hCard at current URL > 2) If the hCard includes , load the URL in the > href, and return to step 1. > > When the consumer gets to http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard > and finds no , it stops there and that's his > authoritative hCard. OK (and I'm not trying to turn into Andy here), but doesn't this feel at least a little unsatisfactory? That the authoritative hCard is the one that _doesn't_ have a UID, i.e. potentially has less information than a fragment hCard?! I'm not killer against the idea or anything, but at least I think that should be brought up. Here's one potential usage snag: - I copy the hCard at http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard to my "address book" - I use it somewhere (to refer to Ryan King) - It doesn't have a UID, so there's no tracing it back to source Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 8 14:29:44 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 8 14:29:48 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritative hCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> <1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com> <21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702081429n5e925eckb2df3315f3228be6@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, David Janes wrote: > On 2/8/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > > > So as I understand that, the rules for getting the most authoritative > > hCard for a given URL are: > > > > 1) parse hCard at current URL > > 2) If the hCard includes , load the URL in the > > href, and return to step 1. > > > > When the consumer gets to http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard > > and finds no , it stops there and that's his > > authoritative hCard. > > OK (and I'm not trying to turn into Andy here), but doesn't this feel > at least a little unsatisfactory? That the authoritative hCard is the > one that _doesn't_ have a UID, i.e. potentially has less information > than a fragment hCard?! > > I'm not killer against the idea or anything, but at least I think that > should be brought up. > > Here's one potential usage snag: > - I copy the hCard at http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard to my > "address book" > - I use it somewhere (to refer to Ryan King) > - It doesn't have a UID, so there's no tracing it back to source And to do the dreaded "answering own e-mail", here's an alternate: - fragment hCards do not need to have "uid", just "url" - consumers (if they're interested) can dereference that URL - if there is a UID hCard at the URL, dereference it - the dereferenced hCard is the authoritative one (I'm totally skipping the multiple hCard/hCard-matching issue for brevity) Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Feb 8 15:29:26 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Feb 8 15:30:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritative hCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702081429n5e925eckb2df3315f3228be6@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> <1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com> <21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20702081429n5e925eckb2df3315f3228be6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2007, at 4:29 PM, David Janes wrote: >> That the authoritative hCard is the >> one that _doesn't_ have a UID, i.e. potentially has less information >> than a fragment hCard?! I think this is how authority generally works in practice, from external references. >> Here's one potential usage snag: >> - I copy the hCard at http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard >> to my >> "address book" >> - I use it somewhere (to refer to Ryan King) >> - It doesn't have a UID, so there's no tracing it back to source Right, not every fragment will point back to the source. I don't think we can solve that problem without assuming pointers where none were intended, which would cause a much larger problem. > And to do the dreaded "answering own e-mail", here's an alternate: > > - fragment hCards do not need to have "uid", just "url" > - consumers (if they're interested) can dereference that URL > - if there is a UID hCard at the URL, dereference it > - the dereferenced hCard is the authoritative one So if I point my hCard to my employer's website, where they have an hCard for the organization, my hCard is then replaced by my employer's? I don't think we can safely expand the meaning of "url" like that. Right now, it only suggests some vague association between the object of the hCard (e.g. me), and the destination (e.g. my employer's website). Acting as a pointer to a more authoritative hCard is a more specific meaning, and would invalidate a large number of already-published hCards. Peace, Scott From adrienne.travis at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 16:30:17 2007 From: adrienne.travis at gmail.com (Adrienne Travis) Date: Thu Feb 8 16:30:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] COinS information? Message-ID: <2c11e8020702081630s7034a7cds63d7e7801318dd53@mail.gmail.com> I hope that this isn't something that's already been referred to ad nauseam; i'm a newbie on the list. I just found out about this, and it SEEMS like a microformat, and worth including on the wiki: http://ocoins.info/ It's a way of including structured bibliographic data for a page in a very compact format. --Adrienne Travis From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Feb 8 07:10:38 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Feb 8 16:33:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace! In-Reply-To: <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780702080105u4205308dla63a8581c62d5933@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >--- i agree with all of this, and that is why microformats do not >force you to use your own tagspace. There are plenty of sites that can >easily be used as tagspaces[1] There's also an implicit assumption that publishers (who don't have their own tag spaces) are (or should be) willing to litter their pages with links to third party websites. I've yet to see any justification for that assumption. -- Andy Mabbett Welcome to the 36-day week! From joe at andrieu.net Thu Feb 8 16:49:50 2007 From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu) Date: Thu Feb 8 16:49:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard [was: UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003701c74be4$34fde670$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Scott Reynen wrote: > On Feb 8, 2007, at 4:29 PM, David Janes wrote: > > >> That the authoritative hCard is the > >> one that _doesn't_ have a UID, i.e. potentially has less > information > >> than a fragment hCard?! > > I think this is how authority generally works in practice, from > external references. Scott, Actually, I think that's quite contradicted by evidence in the wild, especially in the offline world. Birth certificates, passports, driver's licenses, etc., have indicia asserting their authority. I had previously voted for rel="self me", but the symmetry of that is more of a low-security technique to establish mutually endorsed validity. Interesting, but only partially useful. I'd like to reintroduce @rel="via" to the conversation[1]: 5. The value "via" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies a resource that is the source of the information provided in the containing element. Why not just have a "via" point to "source" hCards and any hCard that is self-referential is "authoritative"? That seems both easy for publishers and relatively straightforward for parsers. Keep dereferencing @rel="via" attributes until you find one that dereferences to itself with @rel="via self". Once you get to one that says "I'm my own source," you've got a reasonable assertion of authority. Ryan Cannon suggested this previously [2], but it seemed to get lost in "uid url" conversations. The problem, IMO, with "uid url" is that the uid for a book, for example, is more likely an ISBN rather than a URL, so it wouldn't necessarily be a URI. Allowing both an ISBN uid and a "via" link allows parsers that aware of ISBN to do smart things (such as link to Amazon if they wish) /or/ follow the "via" tag for the author's source reference. Here's the formal def for @rel="self" 3. The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing element. So, refering hCards use @rel="via" and the authoritative hCard uses @rel="via self". And if you don't want to use an link that is self-referential use a span with class="via self url". And if the url in the rel is also the aid, the @rel="via uid" and @rel="via self uid" should work fine. Seems a good way to bootstrap authority. -j [1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287.txt [2] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-January/0 08443.html -- Joe Andrieu joe@andrieu.net +1 (805) 705-8651 From ryan at technorati.com Thu Feb 8 17:02:34 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Feb 8 17:02:37 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com> <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7398B6F0-1F6C-4BEF-BC36-324AB26C38A9@technorati.com> On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:02 AM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/8/07, Ryan King wrote: >> Nothing special is needed at /blog/contact/. > > But that's the authoritative hCard. What's the algorithm (or > heuristic) that I follow if I'm a parser looking at the blog at > microformats.org, see your partial hCard and try to find your > authoritative hCard? > > Sorry if this sounds pedantic, I'm not trying to be. There's some > assumption in what you're saying that I'm not getting. You're right, I haven't fully explained one of my assumptions. That assumption is that we should solve the simpler problem of 'related hcards' first, before we try to solve the problem of authoritative hcards. Secondly, using my proposal you might be able to sort out authoritative hCards by simply following the url+uid links back until you find an hcard that doesn't link to another with url+uid. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Thu Feb 8 17:05:12 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Feb 8 17:05:19 2007 Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]} In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2007, at 12:00 PM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/8/07, Ben Ward wrote: >> >> On 8 Feb 2007, at 19:02, David Janes wrote: >> > On 2/8/07, Ryan King wrote: >> >> Nothing special is needed at /blog/contact/. >> >> >> >> -ryan >> > >> > But that's the authoritative hCard. [?] >> > >> >> >> > Sorry if this sounds pedantic, I'm not trying to be. There's some >> > assumption in what you're saying that I'm not getting. >> >> The difference in interpretation is this: You're looking to describe >> the *one true hcard*, to rule them all, bind them in the darkness and >> so on and so forth. > > No no no. I'm looking for the set of rules a consumer has to follow to > get from Ryan's hCard on microformats.org to his authoritative hCard > at *the*ryanking/contact. The algorithm is simple and recursive: 1. if uid != url you're done 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the new hCard -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Thu Feb 8 17:07:15 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Feb 8 17:07:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritative hCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com> <3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com> <21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com> <864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com> <21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com> <07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com> <1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com> <21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:23 PM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/8/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > >> So as I understand that, the rules for getting the most authoritative >> hCard for a given URL are: >> >> 1) parse hCard at current URL >> 2) If the hCard includes , load the URL in the >> href, and return to step 1. >> >> When the consumer gets to http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard >> and finds no , it stops there and that's his >> authoritative hCard. > > OK (and I'm not trying to turn into Andy here), but doesn't this feel > at least a little unsatisfactory? That the authoritative hCard is the > one that _doesn't_ have a UID, i.e. potentially has less information > than a fragment hCard?! I just thought of another base case in the recursive algorithm if the uid of the current hcard equals that of the previous, you're done. > I'm not killer against the idea or anything, but at least I think that > should be brought up. I agree, what I'm proposing does less than what you proposed. But, I think we need to solve this simpler problem first. > Here's one potential usage snag: > - I copy the hCard at http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard to my > "address book" > - I use it somewhere (to refer to Ryan King) > - It doesn't have a UID, so there's no tracing it back to source Sure, that would be unfortunate, but with the addition of the second base case (see above) it would be solved. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Thu Feb 8 17:13:04 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Feb 8 17:13:06 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard [was: UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <003701c74be4$34fde670$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <003701c74be4$34fde670$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <2C5A6663-D1A3-4273-99FE-447D7EFFCA78@technorati.com> On Feb 8, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Scott Reynen wrote: >> On Feb 8, 2007, at 4:29 PM, David Janes wrote: >> >>>> That the authoritative hCard is the >>>> one that _doesn't_ have a UID, i.e. potentially has less >> information >>>> than a fragment hCard?! >> >> I think this is how authority generally works in practice, from >> external references. > > Scott, > > Actually, I think that's quite contradicted by evidence in the wild, > especially in the offline world. Birth certificates, passports, > driver's licenses, etc., have indicia asserting their authority. > > I had previously voted for rel="self me", but the symmetry of that is > more of a low-security technique to establish mutually endorsed > validity. Interesting, but only partially useful. As explained previously, rel="me" can't help us here, because it applies to the entire page, not a part of a page. That means that it can't be used in places like my staff hCard at technorati: http:// technorati.com/about/staff.html#ryan_king, because there are many hCards on that page. > I'd like to reintroduce @rel="via" to the conversation[1]: > 5. The value "via" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href > attribute identifies a resource that is the source of the > information provided in the containing element. > > Why not just have a "via" point to "source" hCards and any hCard > that is > self-referential is "authoritative"? The simple answer is that we may already have a mechanism in hCard/ vCard which is sufficient (ie, UID). We should only look to add things if there is nothing already in the format which is sufficient. > That seems both easy for > publishers and relatively straightforward for parsers. Keep > dereferencing @rel="via" attributes until you find one that > dereferences > to itself with @rel="via self". Once you get to one that says "I'm my > own source," you've got a reasonable assertion of authority. It appears to me that this is essentially the same algorithm as the url+uid proposal, but with adding new terms. > Ryan Cannon suggested this previously [2], but it seemed to get > lost in > "uid url" conversations. > > The problem, IMO, with "uid url" is that the uid for a book, for > example, is more likely an ISBN rather than a URL, so it wouldn't > necessarily be a URI. Allowing both an ISBN uid and a "via" link > allows > parsers that aware of ISBN to do smart things (such as link to > Amazon if > they wish) /or/ follow the "via" tag for the author's source > reference. I'm not sure how this is relevant. We're talking about hCard here, not a citation format. Also, the url+uid proposal only concerns the case where the url and uid are the same (and, therefore, a URL). -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Thu Feb 8 17:20:12 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Feb 8 17:20:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] "authoritative hCards", a simpler proposl Message-ID: I apologize for being semi-away for awhile. Catching up in the last few days, I find that there are some probelems with the "authoritative hcards" proposals. I've already spoken up a bit, but I want to delineate my perspective and outline in full my counter-proposal. First, the problems: Problem 1: Not tackling the simplest problem first. Before solving the problem of 'canonical' or 'authoritative' hCards, we should solve the problem of 'hcards representing the same person'. Before you can have trust you need identity. Problem 2: Not understanding the scope of XFN. XFN links apply to entire pages, not parts of pages. This means that using XFN links inside multiple hCards on the same page is not possible. Therefore, while using XFN's identity consolidation to consolidate hCards is useful (and can be used regardless of any other mechanisms), it is not sufficient, as it does not allow for the case of multiple hCards on a page, nor does it work for Organizations, only people. Problem 3: No analysis of prior art. Publishers have been using the UID property of hCard to signal "another hCard for this one". The hypothesis that's being tested is that using URL and UID on the same URL is sufficient for being able to connect hCards that represent the same entity. (As a sidenote, I find that documentation of this experiment is hard to come by.) Problem 4: Not reusing within the format in question. Reusing properties from other microformats is great and certainly a design goal. However, first we must look within a given format to see if there's a property that can solve our problem. Ok, enough of the negative stuff, on to a proposal. My proposal is that we use UID+URL to hint that there's an hCard on the other end of that URL which represents the same entity. Also, multiple hCards with the same UID may be considered as representing the same entity. Note that eventful.com is already using this. From http:// eventful.com/events/E0-001-002585347-7:
Pacific Science Center
200 Second Ave. N
Seattle, Washington 98109
United States
47.5839 -122.052
... Notice that in the vcard for this location (within an hCalendar event), they link to the page for that venue (which contains another hCard for that venue). I propose that this is a simpler solution which will work better. Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion => you're done 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the new hCard A similar algorithm could be used to find all related hCards in the network, but only if you have access to a database of backlinks. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at ryancannon.com Thu Feb 8 18:22:06 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Thu Feb 8 18:22:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard [was: UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <200702090103.l1912spt026372@microformats.org> References: <200702090103.l1912spt026372@microformats.org> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:03 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Why not just have a "via" point to "source" hCards and any hCard > that is > self-referential is "authoritative"? That seems both easy for > publishers and relatively straightforward for parsers. Keep > dereferencing @rel="via" attributes until you find one that > dereferences > to itself with @rel="via self". Once you get to one that says "I'm my > own source," you've got a reasonable assertion of authority. > > Ryan Cannon suggested this previously [2], but it seemed to get > lost in > "uid url" conversations. > > [2] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007- > January/008443.html Thanks--it didn't get much traction earlier, and I have yet to see a proposal that makes more sense based on the terms as they are currently defined. > Here's the formal def for @rel="self" > 3. The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the > href > attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing > element. > > So, refering hCards use @rel="via" and the authoritative hCard uses > @rel="via self". And if you don't want to use an link that is > self-referential use a span with class="via self url". > > And if the url in the rel is also the aid, the @rel="via uid" and > @rel="via self uid" should work fine. One catch: if the value in the URI with @rel=self has to be equivalent, then wouldn't the data embedded in the two hCards have to be exactly the same? Also, how would @rel="uid" be defined as an HTML linktype, in a manner different than the ATOM definition for @rel="via" (see my previous post) I suggest that to determine a uid field and authority, hCard parsers look for @class="uid" (parsed as a string, per the current spec not as a URL), that failing, the parsers may optionally follow any links with @rel="via" and attempt to extract a uid from the referenced hCard. Benefits: * @rel="via" links can form a chain of authority. * @rel="via" links do not require the author of the linked hCard to maintain them. * @rel="via" links need not be included in the actual hCard if the author does not want them to be. * All class names and link types maintain their current definitions, which has the least chance of breaking current implementations (as opposed to , which requires parsing rule changes and @rel="self" or @rel="me", which have different semantics. Are there problems with this suggestion that I'm not seeing? -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Thu Feb 8 18:24:23 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (pmw57@xtra.co.nz) Date: Thu Feb 8 18:27:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] addresses for rural delivery Message-ID: <28341014.1170987863819.JavaMail.root@sf1434> I've been marking up some content with the hCard format but came across a puzzling dilemma. In New Zealand, rural delivery addresses are commonly presented as Beverleigh and Grant Muir RD1 Hari Hari 7953 South Westland New Zealand Our postal system has another example of how they should be presented on their Rural Delivery page at http://www.nzpost.co.nz/Cultures/en-NZ/Personal/ManageMailDelivery/RuralDelivery/ I've been trying to work out how to mark it up in the hCard, but as far as I know, rural delivery situations are going to be tricky. So far I have for this

Beverleigh and Grant Muir
RD1
Hari Hari 7953
South Westland
New Zealand

Is this close to how it can be most effectively marked up? -- Paul Wilkins From ross.singer at library.gatech.edu Thu Feb 8 19:04:26 2007 From: ross.singer at library.gatech.edu (Ross Singer) Date: Thu Feb 8 19:04:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] COinS information? In-Reply-To: <2c11e8020702081630s7034a7cds63d7e7801318dd53@mail.gmail.com> References: <2c11e8020702081630s7034a7cds63d7e7801318dd53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <23b83f160702081904m5c56acaao408f21c79f46097d@mail.gmail.com> Ok, I'll try this again... ______________________________ Adrienne, As someone that was actively involved in creating COinS, it's not a microformat. Most of the reasons are semantic, some are pedantic, but it boils down to: 1. Microformats have a process and COinS was developed outside that process 2. COinS hides its data in an attribute -- ufs don't like hidden data 3. I think there's a potential conflict, eventually, between hCite and COinS, but let's burn that bridge when we get to it. That being said, COinS have merit with or without the microformat community: however, they aren't microformats. If you haven't joined the gcs-pcs list ( http://groups.google.com/group/gcs-pcs-list), that's a good place to talk about COinS (since it's where it was conceived). -Ross. On 2/8/07, Adrienne Travis wrote: > > I hope that this isn't something that's already been referred to ad > nauseam; i'm a newbie on the list. I just found out about this, and it > SEEMS like a microformat, and worth including on the wiki: > > http://ocoins.info/ > > It's a way of including structured bibliographic data for a page in a > very compact format. > > --Adrienne Travis On 2/8/07, Adrienne Travis wrote: > I hope that this isn't something that's already been referred to ad > nauseam; i'm a newbie on the list. I just found out about this, and it > SEEMS like a microformat, and worth including on the wiki: > > http://ocoins.info/ > > It's a way of including structured bibliographic data for a page in a > very compact format. > > --Adrienne Travis > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > From joe at andrieu.net Thu Feb 8 19:33:23 2007 From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu) Date: Thu Feb 8 19:33:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was: UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <2C5A6663-D1A3-4273-99FE-447D7EFFCA78@technorati.com> Message-ID: <004601c74bfb$0e143bb0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Ryan King wrote: > On Feb 8, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > > I'd like to reintroduce @rel="via" to the conversation[1]: > > 5. The value "via" signifies that the IRI in the value > of the href > > attribute identifies a resource that is the source of the > > information provided in the containing element. > > > > Why not just have a "via" point to "source" hCards and any hCard > > that is > > self-referential is "authoritative"? > > The simple answer is that we may already have a mechanism in hCard/ > vCard which is sufficient (ie, UID). We should only look to add > things if there is nothing already in the format which is sufficient. > > > That seems both easy for > > publishers and relatively straightforward for parsers. Keep > > dereferencing @rel="via" attributes until you find one that > > dereferences > > to itself with @rel="via self". Once you get to one that > says "I'm my > > own source," you've got a reasonable assertion of authority. > > It appears to me that this is essentially the same algorithm as the > url+uid proposal, but with adding new terms. The algorithm is the same, but the semantics are different. Ryan King: > > The problem, IMO, with "uid url" is that the uid for a book, for > > example, is more likely an ISBN rather than a URL, so it wouldn't > > necessarily be a URI. Allowing both an ISBN uid and a "via" link > > allows > > parsers that aware of ISBN to do smart things (such as link to > > Amazon if > > they wish) /or/ follow the "via" tag for the author's source > > reference. > > I'm not sure how this is relevant. We're talking about hCard here, > not a citation format. That's valid. I ended up being more general in that example than necessary for the simple hCard solution. (The via semantics could apply to any referring/authoritative microformat relationship.) However, the semantics remain an issue. url+uid presumes that the uid for the hCard /is/ a url. I can think of many situations where it isn't and the spec explicitly allows non-url uids. For example, when my school or company lists me in a directory. The uid in that domain could appropriately be my student or employee id, not the url where the authoritative record of my affiliation/status/contact information might be kept. For example, this URL could be marked up with an hCard with "personID" as the UID http://www.search.caltech.edu/CIT_People_off_campus/action.lasso?-database=CIT_People&-response=Detail_Person.html&-layout=all_field s&person_id=16987&-search Rather than the entire URL. In fact, the URL is probably not a permalink, making the person_id potentially a much more stable id for the contact info on that page. Of course, it all depends on the IT department, but the real issue is that while using permalink URLs for uids is elegant, it is not always practical, hence the "SHOULD" in the spec. Forcing publishers to synchronize uids with urls may make for a more elegant standard, but it doesn't meet the test of humans first, machines second. Seems to me that authors should be able to indicate the source/reference/authoritative hCard without having to use the source url as their uid. Ryan King: > Also, the url+uid proposal only concerns the case where the url and > uid are the same (and, therefore, a URL). >From a different email Ryan also wrote: > Problem 1: Not tackling the simplest problem first. > > Before solving the problem of 'canonical' or 'authoritative' hCards, > we should solve the problem of 'hcards representing the same > person'. > Before you can have trust you need identity. Actually, I think "authoritative" is a simpler, special case of two hCards representing the same person. Trying to solve the general problem of multiple hCards representing the same person is a mess. Consider: school and work directories conference bios online papers and articles and blog comments public records like DMV and the courts youtube, flickr, yahoo, and google accounts In contrast, the if we can simply assert two claims, we have a useful relationship that I have already seen much use for: 1. This (refering) hCard is a "stub" or abbreviated version of this other "source" hCard. 2. This (authoritative) hCard is itself the most authoritative reference for this hCard. So, let's look again at your proposal. Ryan King: > Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: > > 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion > => you're done > 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the > new hCard This only works if you require that the uid be a URL. The standard currently allows any String as uid, stating only that it "SHOULD" be a URL. Publishers may want to use non-url UIDs as in the example above or they may want to use URL uids that are not intended to be authoritative. For example, a conference listing may have a bio page for an individual, use the URL of that bio page as the individual's uid with a conference-specific hCard, but support linking back to an authoritative hCard for that individual. In fact, the uid on the conference page could be specific to the refering hCard's domain, with the authoritative hCard using a different uid. My conference uid need not be my personal uid. Remember, the uid refers to the hCard, not to the individual, because individuals do not have singular uids, we only have uids in specific contexts. uid+url doesn't allow these use cases because it overrides the semantics of uid and url to forge a new semantic that means "authoritative". In contrast, the semantic meaning of "via" is clearer, more specific, and affords the same algorithm. Forging "via self" into meaning "authoritative" seems much cleaner and a reasonable bootstrapping technique. Isn't claiming authority the same as asserting that the source of this information is myself? "via self" as "authoritative" makes great semantic sense to me. Ryan King: > Problem 2: Not understanding the scope of XFN. > XFN links apply to entire pages, not parts of pages. This means that > using XFN links inside multiple hCards on the same page is not > possible. Therefore, while using XFN's identity consolidation to > consolidate hCards is useful (and can be used regardless of any other > mechanisms), it is not sufficient, as it does not allow for the case > of multiple hCards on a page, nor does it work for Organizations, > only people. @rel="via" is not an XFN link (it is from Atom[1]), but perhaps you were still refering to @rel="self me". However, you bring up a good use case that I don't understand how url+uid solves. @rel="via" and "via self" actually addresses the multiple authoritative hCards on a page problem. Simply have unique UIDs (as you should) for different hCards on the same page (which have the same URL, hence url cannot equal the uid, except perhaps for one of the hCards). Unless I misunderstand, the url+uid proposal does not allow multiple, authoritative hCards on the same page. via/via self can enable this by using the UID to find the appropriate authoritative hCard on the source URL. To restate the algorithm of via+via self in the form you presented url+uid: 1. if no url with a @rel == "via", or if @rel="via self", you're done. 2. if there is a url with @rel == "via", and there is either a solitary hCard at that url or an hCard with the same uid as this hCard, recurse with the new hCard. The, @rel attributes would be appropriate for any anchor tag, but could also be used as an adjunct in any url @class attribute, e.g., @class="url via" or @class="url via self". Obviously, the == above are not explicit equality, as order shouldn't matter, but it's clearer without a formal regexp or similar. Ryan Cannon writes: > One catch: if the value in the URI with @rel=self has to be > equivalent, then wouldn't the data embedded in the two hCards > have to be exactly the same? 3. The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing element. Equivalent does not mean congruent. Equivalent value, for example, doesn't mean you get exactly the same thing, but a thin of similar value. In this case, we would be asserting the semantic means the same contact entity represented by the hCard. Ryan Cannon: > Also, how would @rel="uid" be defined as an HTML linktype, in > a manner different than the ATOM definition for @rel="via" > (see my previous post) That's interesting. Atom actually uses "id" rather than "uid". I'm not sure the best way to deal with that. Although perhaps ignoring @rel altogether. All of the examples I've worked through would work equally well with http://joesurl.com/myhCard or My hCard Ryan Cannon: > I suggest that to determine a uid field and authority, hCard > parsers look for @class="uid" (parsed as a string, per the > current spec not as a URL), that failing, the parsers may > optionally follow any links with @rel="via" and attempt to > extract a uid from the referenced hCard. Ryan, this seems to ignore the case where there is a uid that is a url, but which is not the authoritative reference. Again, it blurs semantics. Actually, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. In summary, a uid is not necessarily the same as the source URL. Requiring that the uid=url to state authoritaty destroys semantic information and constrains publishers unnecessarily. via+via self retain it without constraining publishers, and can be used in @rel or @class attributes. -j [1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287.txt -- Joe Andrieu joe@andrieu.net +1 (805) 705-8651 From lachlan.hardy at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 19:45:12 2007 From: lachlan.hardy at gmail.com (Lachlan Hardy) Date: Thu Feb 8 19:45:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] "authoritative hCards", a simpler proposl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1612cc300702081945x60f95a0eo9c6c8a5e30f9dc11@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Ryan Thanks for summarising. It was getting confusing skipping around all those threads I want to address your points out of order, if I may. Firstly, just to check that I have understood your proposal correctly > Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: > > 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion > => you're done > 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the > new hCard To provide examples of my understanding of your proposal: various hCards for Chris Messina (thanks for having so many hCards, Chris!) at places such as ClaimID, blogrolls, conference sites etc would read: ClaimID: Chris Messina or blog link to Some Conference: Chris Messina or link from Some Conference: Chris Messina At each of these URLs it finds another hCard that leads on again, thus identifying a series of related hCards. All of which are tied, by virtue of the UID, to the value of the element (in this case, 'Chris Messina') Eventually, our parser ends up at factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard and finds an hCard containing: Chris Messina or Chris Messina The self-referential nature of this link indicates that it is the 'authoritative' hCard. Have I understood you correctly, Ryan? I'd propose that the UID is still required at the final hCard, to explicitly confirming that *this* URL is the definitive one for the object of this hCard. Or is an explicit reference superfluous given the implicit confirmation of the self-referential URL? > My proposal is that we use UID+URL to hint that there's an hCard on > the other end of that URL which represents the same entity. Also, > multiple hCards with the same UID may be considered as representing > the same entity. To move on, I get the feeling I'm missing something here. Your proposal seems to me to suggest that we add UID to all URLs to that indicate the presence of a related hCard (of another hCard which has the same subject - either person or organisation) I'd suggest that UID is initially unnecessary. FN+URL could provide the same understanding - eg a unique combination within a hCard, defining the subject of the hCard and providing a pointer to further information FN+URL points to another URL which has information about the subject. Follow those URLs until you get to one which has FN+URL+UID. The latter is the 'authoritative' hCard RFC2426 defines the purpose of UID as "To specify a value that represents a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated with the vCard" To my mind that fits better... Wreak havoc upon my suggestions at will Thanks Lachlan Hardy From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 8 23:01:10 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 8 23:01:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] "authoritative hCards", a simpler proposl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20702082301sdb08c43n199c03c8827103f7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Ryan King wrote: > I propose that this is a simpler solution which will work better. > > Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: > > 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion > => you're done > 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the > new hCard Here's my January 24 problem (re)statement, rewritten with Ryan's proposal. (a) Start Source Page (e.g. http://microformats.org/)
Ryan
The "url uid" indicates that the consumer should dereference to "http://theryanking.com" (Rule #2) (b) URL Page (http://theryanking.com): Ryan changes: contact To
Contact Ryan King
The "url uid" indicates that the consumer should dereference to "http://theryanking.com/contact/#vcard" (Rule #2). Note: - we have to use a heuristic to join Step (a) & (b). I don't think this is avoidable (c) Authorative URL Page (http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard):
Ryan King ... more stuff ...
Rule #1 stops iteration (uid=http://theryanking.com, which is the uid from step (b)). ------------------- This works pretty good. Two potential changes. Rule 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from _a_ previous iteration/recursion => you're done change _the_ -> _a_: no need to go around in circles Rule 0. if this is the first hCard you've seen, and there is a url but no uid, the consumer may dereference once + works with what's out there - asking consumers to do potentially unnecessary work Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From sam.sethi at vecosys.com Fri Feb 9 00:31:28 2007 From: sam.sethi at vecosys.com (Sam Sethi) Date: Fri Feb 9 00:31:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome><21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com><3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com><21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com><864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com><21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com><07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk><21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com><1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com><21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401c74c24$b2cc5e20$4001a8c0@SETHI001> Couldn't be your openid page? i.e http://samksethi.myopenid.com and this page contain my details in hCard? Thanks in advance Sam Sethi | Entrepologist | mobile: +44 7985 705075| blog: vecosys | skype: samksethi | This email is: [ ] bloggable [ ] ask first [X] private | -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Ryan King Sent: 09 February 2007 01:07 To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard) On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:23 PM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/8/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > >> So as I understand that, the rules for getting the most authoritative >> hCard for a given URL are: >> >> 1) parse hCard at current URL >> 2) If the hCard includes , load the URL in the >> href, and return to step 1. >> >> When the consumer gets to http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard >> and finds no , it stops there and that's his >> authoritative hCard. > > OK (and I'm not trying to turn into Andy here), but doesn't this feel > at least a little unsatisfactory? That the authoritative hCard is the > one that _doesn't_ have a UID, i.e. potentially has less information > than a fragment hCard?! I just thought of another base case in the recursive algorithm if the uid of the current hcard equals that of the previous, you're done. > I'm not killer against the idea or anything, but at least I think that > should be brought up. I agree, what I'm proposing does less than what you proposed. But, I think we need to solve this simpler problem first. > Here's one potential usage snag: > - I copy the hCard at http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard to my > "address book" > - I use it somewhere (to refer to Ryan King) > - It doesn't have a UID, so there's no tracing it back to source Sure, that would be unfortunate, but with the addition of the second base case (see above) it would be solved. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Fri Feb 9 07:19:23 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Fri Feb 9 07:19:27 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] addresses for rural delivery In-Reply-To: <28341014.1170987863819.JavaMail.root@sf1434> References: <28341014.1170987863819.JavaMail.root@sf1434> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, pmw57@xtra.co.nz wrote: > So far I have for this > >

> Beverleigh and Grant Muir
> RD1
> Hari Hari 7953
> South Westland
> New Zealand >

I would think that the name of the recipients is the FN, not part of the address. Are Rural Delivery numbers similar enough to "post-office-box" perhaps? -Ciaran McNulty From newsletter at 2000grad.com Fri Feb 9 07:52:59 2007 From: newsletter at 2000grad.com (Henrich C. Poehls) Date: Fri Feb 9 07:52:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <923a87360702021502q188e2f2foa2aad72c3e4a4471@mail.gmail.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360702021502q188e2f2foa2aad72c3e4a4471@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CC98DB.4030102@2000grad.com> Hello Ara, On 02/03/2007 Ara Pehlivanian wrote: > On 2/1/07, John Allsopp wrote: >> vCard has the property key - and so too does therefore hCard. vCard >> defines key (more or less, no cnnection this moment to quote directly) >> >> Specifies the public key or authentication certificate associated >> with the entity the vcard represents > > So then that settles the issue of authentication. If a third party > consumer that reads the hCard wants to validate its authenticity, it > can simply use the key (if present). It could further match all linked > hCard keys to validate the chain's integrity. N'est pas? Not really that easy, once you got the public-key of the person, which I think could well be stored in the vcards key property, you need a digital signature in order to verify it's use when generating the content. A public-key, by definition, could be copied by anyone. It's the generation of a digital signature over the Microformat that involves the use of the private/secret-key, that actually shows that the person to which the public-key belongs to has signed that specific Microformat (e.g. his/her own hcard). But then we still need to verify (get some trust) that the public-key used to verify the digital signature actually belongs to the person we assumed (e.g. A public-key certificate issued/signed by VeriSign). Only then we have authenticated the hcard of that person via a digital signature. I started a brainstorming on the WiKi[1] on how to Digitally Sign Microformats and store this information again in a Microformat. Bye, Henrich [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/digitalsignature-brainstorming From derrick at pallas.us Fri Feb 9 08:19:12 2007 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Fri Feb 9 08:19:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: <45CC98DB.4030102@2000grad.com> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360702021502q188e2f2foa2aad72c3e4a4471@mail.gmail.com> <45CC98DB.4030102@2000grad.com> Message-ID: <45CC9F00.1050908@pallas.us> > On 02/03/2007 Ara Pehlivanian wrote: > >> So then that settles the issue of authentication. If a third party >> consumer that reads the hCard wants to validate its authenticity, it >> can simply use the key (if present). It could further match all linked >> hCard keys to validate the chain's integrity. N'est pas? >> > Henrich C. Poehls wrote: > > But then we still need to verify (get some trust) that the public-key > used to verify the digital signature actually belongs to the person we > assumed (e.g. A public-key certificate issued/signed by VeriSign). Only > then we have authenticated the hcard of that person via a digital signature. > How many people actually pay the VeriSign fee to have their key-pair signed? Not anyone I know. And what does it give us that we don't already have? If you're going to follow chains to hCards, 1.) anyone can copy the signature and insert it into an identical hCard on another site, so you have to make sure that authoritative URL is somewhere in the hCard and marked as authoritative 2.) anyone can link to an hCard pretending to be the owner, so you have to check the XFN links to "me"; therefore, users have to update and re-sign their signature every time a resource (they want to be in the chain) links to their "authoritative" hCard; e.g. blog posts, which they authored So we do a lot of extra work for not much benefit, except a false sense of security because a big company is convinced that the person we think we're looking at is (they think) the person they think we're looking at. From nickdrago at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 14:54:18 2007 From: nickdrago at gmail.com (Nick Drago) Date: Fri Feb 9 14:54:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard In-Reply-To: References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome> <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com> <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk> <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com> <923a87360702021502q188e2f2foa2aad72c3e4a4471@mail.gmail.com> <45CC98DB.4030102@2000grad.com> <45CC9F00.1050908@pallas.us> Message-ID: All, Henrich's proposed method of incorporating digital signatures in Microformatted content is now available on the wiki [1]. We would appreciate feedback and suggestions (either directly on the wiki or via the mailing list). Many thanks, Nick [1]: http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures [2]: http://microformats.org/wiki/digitalsignature-brainstorming (the earlier mentioned page which can be used for brainstorming and examples) From ryan at technorati.com Fri Feb 9 15:49:55 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Fri Feb 9 15:50:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was: UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <004601c74bfb$0e143bb0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <004601c74bfb$0e143bb0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <6CE3503E-4E59-4FA8-84A5-04471337EB95@technorati.com> > Ryan King: >>> The problem, IMO, with "uid url" is that the uid for a book, for >>> example, is more likely an ISBN rather than a URL, so it wouldn't >>> necessarily be a URI. Allowing both an ISBN uid and a "via" link >>> allows >>> parsers that aware of ISBN to do smart things (such as link to >>> Amazon if >>> they wish) /or/ follow the "via" tag for the author's source >>> reference. >> >> I'm not sure how this is relevant. We're talking about hCard here, >> not a citation format. > > That's valid. I ended up being more general in that example than > necessary for the simple hCard solution. (The via semantics could > apply to any referring/authoritative microformat relationship.) > > However, the semantics remain an issue. > > url+uid presumes that the uid for the hCard /is/ a url. I can > think of many situations where it isn't and the spec explicitly > allows non-url uids. For example, when my school or company lists > me in a directory. The uid in that domain could appropriately be > my student or employee id, not the url where the authoritative > record of my affiliation/status/contact information might be kept. First off, I'm not saying we should constrain UID to be a URL, but in the case that it *is* a URL, we can apply these semantics. Secondly, UID is supposed to be a "globally unique identifier", so something like a student id wouldn't qualify. Now if you take those two points together, plus the fact that URLs have a build-in system for distributed, uniform allocation, I think UIDs *should* be URLs. I can't imagine using anything else besides a URL in any useful way. > For example, this URL could be marked up with an hCard with > "personID" as the UID > http://www.search.caltech.edu/CIT_People_off_campus/action.lasso?- > database=CIT_People&-response=Detail_Person.html&-layout=all_field > s&person_id=16987&-search > > Rather than the entire URL. In fact, the URL is probably not a > permalink, making the person_id potentially a much more stable id for > the contact info on that page. Of course, it all depends on the IT > department, but the real issue is that while using permalink > URLs for uids is elegant, it is not always practical, hence the > "SHOULD" in the spec. > > Forcing publishers to synchronize uids with urls may make for a > more elegant standard, but it doesn't meet the test of humans first, > machines second. Seems to me that authors should be able to > indicate the source/reference/authoritative hCard without having to > use > the source url as their uid. I understand that in many cases we'd like to refer to entities that don't have a stable URL. I'm not sure this is the right place to introduce another universal identification scheme. > Ryan King: >> Also, the url+uid proposal only concerns the case where the url and >> uid are the same (and, therefore, a URL). > >> From a different email Ryan also wrote: >> Problem 1: Not tackling the simplest problem first. >> >> Before solving the problem of 'canonical' or 'authoritative' hCards, >> we should solve the problem of 'hcards representing the same >> person'. >> Before you can have trust you need identity. > > Actually, I think "authoritative" is a simpler, special case of two > hCards representing the same person. Trying to solve the > general problem of multiple hCards representing the same person is > a mess. Consider: > school and work directories > conference bios > online papers and articles and blog comments > public records like DMV and the courts > youtube, flickr, yahoo, and google accounts > > In contrast, the if we can simply assert two claims, we have a > useful relationship that I have already seen much use for: > > 1. This (refering) hCard is a "stub" or abbreviated version of this > other "source" hCard. > 2. This (authoritative) hCard is itself the most authoritative > reference for this hCard. I don't get your point. Your arguement here assumes that we can figure out when two hCards refer to each other as related, which is the simpler problem I'd like to solve. > So, let's look again at your proposal. > > Ryan King: >> Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: >> >> 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion >> => you're done >> 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the >> new hCard > > This only works if you require that the uid be a URL. The standard > currently allows any > String as uid, stating only that it "SHOULD" be a URL. Publishers > may want to use non-url UIDs as in the example above or they may > want to use URL uids that are not intended to be authoritative. No, we don't have to require that the UID be a URL. The rule is only activated when the url is a uid (and equal to one of the URL fields of the hCard). People are still free to use non-URL UIDs, but they just don't get the benefit of being connected on the WWW. > For example, a conference listing may have a bio page for an > individual, use the URL of that bio page as the individual's uid > with a > conference-specific hCard, but support linking back to an > authoritative hCard for that individual. In fact, the uid on the > conference page could be specific to the refering hCard's domain, > with the authoritative hCard using a different uid. My conference > uid need not be my personal uid. Remember, the uid refers to the > hCard, not to the individual, because individuals do not have > singular uids, we only have uids in specific contexts. Actually, you're wrong here. The vcard RFC states about UID: "" To specify a value that represents a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated with the vCard. """ UIDs identify people and organizations, not their hCards. Given that, in the world of microformats, we've already found that people use URLs to identify people, which is one of the assumptions underlying XFN. > uid+url doesn't allow these use cases because it overrides the > semantics of uid and url to forge a new semantic that means > "authoritative". No, it means 'related' or 'representing the same person/company', in the same way that XFN's 'me' property does. > In contrast, the semantic meaning of "via" is clearer, more > specific, and affords the same algorithm. Forging "via self" into > meaning "authoritative" seems much cleaner and a reasonable > bootstrapping technique. Isn't claiming authority the same as > asserting > that the source of this information is myself? "via self" as > "authoritative" makes great semantic sense to me. > > Ryan King: >> Problem 2: Not understanding the scope of XFN. > >> XFN links apply to entire pages, not parts of pages. This means that >> using XFN links inside multiple hCards on the same page is not >> possible. Therefore, while using XFN's identity consolidation to >> consolidate hCards is useful (and can be used regardless of any other >> mechanisms), it is not sufficient, as it does not allow for the case >> of multiple hCards on a page, nor does it work for Organizations, >> only people. > > > @rel="via" is not an XFN link (it is from Atom[1]), but perhaps you > were still refering to @rel="self me". However, you bring up a > good use case that I don't understand how url+uid solves. Yeah, I was. Sorry, I mixed up the various proposals. > @rel="via" and "via self" actually addresses the multiple > authoritative hCards on a page problem. Simply have unique UIDs (as > you > should) for different hCards on the same page (which have the same > URL, hence url cannot equal the uid, except perhaps for one of > the hCards). Unless I misunderstand, the url+uid proposal does not > allow multiple, authoritative hCards on the same page. via/via > self can enable this by using the UID to find the appropriate > authoritative hCard on the source URL. Yes, url+uid does allow multiple items on a page in the same way that your proposal does. Remember, the algorithm is the same, only the semantics differ. > ... > > In summary, a uid is not necessarily the same as the source URL. > Requiring that the uid=url to state authoritaty destroys semantic > information and constrains publishers unnecessarily. via+via self > retain it without constraining publishers, and can be used in @rel > or @class attributes. On the contrary, I think url+uid is less constraining. It just means "this hcard represents the same person/organization as that other one", which is the simpler and more useful problem we need to solve. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Fri Feb 9 15:55:20 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Fri Feb 9 15:55:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] "authoritative hCards", a simpler proposl In-Reply-To: <1612cc300702081945x60f95a0eo9c6c8a5e30f9dc11@mail.gmail.com> References: <1612cc300702081945x60f95a0eo9c6c8a5e30f9dc11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Lachlan Hardy wrote: > Hi, Ryan > > Thanks for summarising. It was getting confusing skipping around all > those threads > > I want to address your points out of order, if I may. Firstly, just to > check that I have understood your proposal correctly > >> Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: >> >> 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion >> => you're done >> 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the >> new hCard > > To provide examples of my understanding of your proposal: > > various hCards for Chris Messina (thanks for having so many hCards, > Chris!) at places such as ClaimID, blogrolls, conference sites etc > would read: > > ClaimID: > Chris > Messina > or blog link to Some Conference: > href="http://someconference.com/speakers/chrismessina">Chris > Messina > or link from Some Conference: > Chris > Messina > > At each of these URLs it finds another hCard that leads on again, thus > identifying a series of related hCards. All of which are tied, by > virtue of the UID, to the value of the element (in this case, 'Chris > Messina') > > Eventually, our parser ends up at factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard and finds > an hCard containing: > Chris > Messina > or > Chris > Messina > > The self-referential nature of this link indicates that it is the > 'authoritative' hCard. > > Have I understood you correctly, Ryan? I believe so. > I'd propose that the UID is still required at the final hCard, to > explicitly confirming that *this* URL is the definitive one for the > object of this hCard. > > Or is an explicit reference superfluous given the implicit > confirmation of the self-referential URL? You actually bring up a good point that I hadn't thought of yet. I don't think we need a UID at the terminal hCard in order to conclude that the hCards represent the same person/organization (or, at least, their publishers think so). However, the addition of UID at the terminal hCard may allow us to conclude that it is authoritative. >> My proposal is that we use UID+URL to hint that there's an hCard on >> the other end of that URL which represents the same entity. Also, >> multiple hCards with the same UID may be considered as representing >> the same entity. > > To move on, I get the feeling I'm missing something here. Your > proposal seems to me to suggest that we add UID to all URLs to that > indicate the presence of a related hCard (of another hCard which has > the same subject - either person or organisation) > > I'd suggest that UID is initially unnecessary. FN+URL could provide > the same understanding - eg a unique combination within a hCard, > defining the subject of the hCard and providing a pointer to further > information This is too brittle and lacks explicit semantics. I've actually build a tool that tried to do cluster of hCards by FN+URL (based on data from our search engine [http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/]), but found a large number of false negatives. For example, if you linked to by blog the link form the mf.org blog to my blog wouldn't work, because the FN's are different ('Ryan' vs. 'Ryan King'). -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From ryan at technorati.com Fri Feb 9 15:56:51 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Fri Feb 9 15:56:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard (Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard) In-Reply-To: <002401c74c24$b2cc5e20$4001a8c0@SETHI001> References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome><21e523c20702071250q448dfb19wbb7ca335c55d1934@mail.gmail.com><3A42CA8F-839D-4198-962E-12B1609F8ECA@technorati.com><21e523c20702071456g2d3d5222x64c93b730aec860a@mail.gmail.com><864B2125-8C5C-49C9-9B81-21004D9DF0B1@technorati.com><21e523c20702081102v23ebedc5v3f67cb1ef20cc302@mail.gmail.com><07C6E7F2-D503-458D-A5C4-D1E4E2EDE910@ben-ward.co.uk><21e523c20702081200n4559543ar7fc3bfc58ea69192@mail.gmail.com><1A4047C2-A535-4F0C-B0A9-5C55903F7FC7@randomchaos.com><21e523c20702081423u4a1eed66o4e7918b2c0aca86e@mail.gmail.com> <002401c74c24$b2cc5e20$4001a8c0@SETHI001> Message-ID: <82E55191-5A53-4131-A7C6-BEDDBC911124@technorati.com> On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Sam Sethi wrote: > Couldn't be your openid page? i.e > http://samksethi.myopenid.com and this page contain my details in > hCard? Certainly. It's just a web page! :D -ryan From ryan at technorati.com Fri Feb 9 15:57:47 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Fri Feb 9 15:57:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] addresses for rural delivery In-Reply-To: <28341014.1170987863819.JavaMail.root@sf1434> References: <28341014.1170987863819.JavaMail.root@sf1434> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2007, at 6:24 PM, wrote: > I've been marking up some content with the hCard format but came > across a puzzling dilemma. > > In New Zealand, rural delivery addresses are commonly presented as > > Beverleigh and Grant Muir > RD1 > Hari Hari 7953 > South Westland > New Zealand > > Our postal system has another example of how they should be > presented on their Rural Delivery page at http://www.nzpost.co.nz/ > Cultures/en-NZ/Personal/ManageMailDelivery/RuralDelivery/ > > I've been trying to work out how to mark it up in the hCard, but as > far as I know, rural delivery situations are going to be tricky. > > So far I have for this > >

> Beverleigh and Grant Muir
> RD1
> Hari Hari 7953
> South Westland
> New Zealand >

Looks good to me. The best test you can do would be to use some tools (X2V and Operator in particular) and try to convert it and import into an address book application. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From timber at lava.net Fri Feb 9 23:40:52 2007 From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett) Date: Fri Feb 9 23:40:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was: UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <6CE3503E-4E59-4FA8-84A5-04471337EB95@technorati.com> References: <004601c74bfb$0e143bb0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> <6CE3503E-4E59-4FA8-84A5-04471337EB95@technorati.com> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Ryan King wrote: > Secondly, UID is supposed to be a "globally unique identifier", so > something like a student id wouldn't qualify. If you're aiming for a globally unique identifier, why not just create a UUID[1], I say sarcastically. -Colin [1] http://www.famkruithof.net/uuid/uuidgen From joe at andrieu.net Sat Feb 10 03:09:34 2007 From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu) Date: Sat Feb 10 03:09:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was:UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was:Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <6CE3503E-4E59-4FA8-84A5-04471337EB95@technorati.com> Message-ID: <004b01c74d03$f32be7d0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome> Ryan King wrote: > First off, I'm not saying we should constrain UID to be a > URL, but in > the case that it *is* a URL, we can apply these semantics. And if the uid is not an url, then authors can't assert authority, correct? > Secondly, UID is supposed to be a "globally unique identifier", so > something like a student id wouldn't qualify. > > Now if you take those two points together, plus the fact that URLs > have a build-in system for distributed, uniform allocation, I think > UIDs *should* be URLs. I can't imagine using anything else besides a > URL in any useful way. Sure. I understand why uids *should* be urls. But it is not required. Limiting authority to publishers who agree with the spec authors' "shouldness" is unkind. If uids had to be urls, your argument would be much more compelling. > > Forcing publishers to synchronize uids with urls may make for a > > more elegant standard, but it doesn't meet the test of humans first, > > machines second. Seems to me that authors should be able to > > indicate the source/reference/authoritative hCard without > having to > > use > > the source url as their uid. > > I understand that in many cases we'd like to refer to entities that > don't have a stable URL. I'm not sure this is the right place to > introduce another universal identification scheme. Ryan, I didn't suggest that we introduce new universal identification scheme. I am saying that we should use some terms from Atom in hCard to that publishers who have their own uid scheme can still assert authority in hCard. Forcing the religion of "uids should be urls" on the rest of the world is not why we are here. Making it easy for authors to connect their web content and web apps with the semantic web is. If someone else likes uids that aren't urls, and the spec supports that, then why should we keep them from establishing authoritative hCards? > >> Before solving the problem of 'canonical' or > 'authoritative' hCards, > >> we should solve the problem of 'hcards representing the > same person'. > >> Before you can have trust you need identity. > > > > Actually, I think "authoritative" is a simpler, special case of two > > hCards representing the same person. Trying to solve the > > general problem of multiple hCards representing the same person is > > a mess. Consider: > > school and work directories > > conference bios > > online papers and articles and blog comments > > public records like DMV and the courts > > youtube, flickr, yahoo, and google accounts > > > > In contrast, the if we can simply assert two claims, we have a > > useful relationship that I have already seen much use for: > > > > 1. This (refering) hCard is a "stub" or abbreviated version of this > > other "source" hCard. > > 2. This (authoritative) hCard is itself the most authoritative > > reference for this hCard. > > I don't get your point. Your arguement here assumes that we can > figure out when two hCards refer to each other as related, which is > the simpler problem I'd like to solve. I think we might be partially agreeing here in a way that isn't very clear. I'm saying that a general way to define relationships between hCards is a harder problem that (a) a specific relationship between two hCards and (b) a unique relationship between an hCard and itself (that is, the assertion that this hCard is itself authoritative). The general "relatedness" problem seems to be in the XFN domain and not really what we are trying to solve in this thread. Am I misunderstanding what you are getting at? > > So, let's look again at your proposal. > > > > Ryan King: > >> Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: > >> > >> 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous > iteration/recursion > >> => you're done 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, > >> recurse with the new hCard > > > > This only works if you require that the uid be a URL. The standard > > currently allows any > > String as uid, stating only that it "SHOULD" be a URL. Publishers > > may want to use non-url UIDs as in the example above or they may > > want to use URL uids that are not intended to be authoritative. > > No, we don't have to require that the UID be a URL. The rule is only > activated when the url is a uid (and equal to one of the URL fields > of the hCard). People are still free to use non-URL UIDs, but they > just don't get the benefit of being connected on the WWW. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means only when the uid is an url can an author assert authority, right? > > For example, a conference listing may have a bio page for an > > individual, use the URL of that bio page as the individual's uid > > with a > > conference-specific hCard, but support linking back to an > > authoritative hCard for that individual. In fact, the uid on the > > conference page could be specific to the refering hCard's domain, > > with the authoritative hCard using a different uid. My conference > > uid need not be my personal uid. Remember, the uid refers to the > > hCard, not to the individual, because individuals do not have > > singular uids, we only have uids in specific contexts. > > Actually, you're wrong here. The vcard RFC states about UID: > > "" > To specify a value that represents a globally unique > identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated > with the vCard. > """ > > UIDs identify people and organizations, not their hCards. Ah. Thank you for the correction. That's a rather intriguing twist. Is there any ability to handle multiple UIDs for the same entity? (That's totally off-topic...) > Given that, in the world of microformats, we've already found that > people use URLs to identify people, which is one of the assumptions > underlying XFN. > > > uid+url doesn't allow these use cases because it overrides the > > semantics of uid and url to forge a new semantic that means > > "authoritative". > > No, it means 'related' or 'representing the same person/company', in > the same way that XFN's 'me' property does. Related? The language you had used was "to indicate (relatively) more authoritative." As for XFN's 'me', I am not a big fan of the semantics behind that. I've mentioned before that "I am not my stuff." I am not my blog. I am not my flicker account, etc. But that is also off-topic, here. How XFN represents relationships is a whole different ball of wax. However, I don't think we gain anything by having a more vague "related" rather than the explicit "authoritative." Maybe I'm missing something about your point. I see the one explicit relationship as simpler. I'm not understanding what you think is simpler about a general "relatedness". > > In contrast, the semantic meaning of "via" is clearer, more > > specific, and affords the same algorithm. Forging "via self" into > > meaning "authoritative" seems much cleaner and a reasonable > > bootstrapping technique. Isn't claiming authority the same as > > asserting > > that the source of this information is myself? "via self" as > > "authoritative" makes great semantic sense to me. > > @rel="via" and "via self" actually addresses the multiple > > authoritative hCards on a page problem. Simply have unique > UIDs (as > > you > > should) for different hCards on the same page (which have the same > > URL, hence url cannot equal the uid, except perhaps for one of > > the hCards). Unless I misunderstand, the url+uid proposal does not > > allow multiple, authoritative hCards on the same page. via/via > > self can enable this by using the UID to find the appropriate > > authoritative hCard on the source URL. > > Yes, url+uid does allow multiple items on a page in the same > way that > your proposal does. Remember, the algorithm is the same, only the > semantics differ. So, you are indexing the URL into the page with an id to disambiguate? [this hypothetical example would be at http://www.joeandrieu.com/index.html]
http://www.joeandrieu.com/index.html#joe
http://www.joeandrieu.com/index.html#jacqui
That does work (and wasn't what I had considered before). > > In summary, a uid is not necessarily the same as the source URL. > > Requiring that the uid=url to state authoritaty destroys semantic > > information and constrains publishers unnecessarily. via+via self > > retain it without constraining publishers, and can be used in @rel > > or @class attributes. > > > On the contrary, I think url+uid is less constraining. It just means > "this hcard represents the same person/organization as that other > one", which is the simpler and more useful problem we need to solve. How is via+via self more constraining? You can do everything you can with uid+url, but you don't have to use URLs for your UIDs. I do see the value in not adding to hCard. I've argued elsewhere against the arbitrariness with which "places" became suitable entities for hCards. However, overloading uid+url means that for the case when uids are NOT urls, one cannot assert authority. And until the spec moves from *should* to *must*, the spec itself is, IMO, justification enough for that use case. I don't quite understand why "via" is such a bad thing. It's adopted as part of Atom and seems to be what we are talking about. You might argue that "via self" is an odd construction, but asserting that "self is the source" seems to me much more indicative of authority than asserting that "this resolvable url is the unique identifier". On the whole, however, I think the only substantive difference between the two is whether or not it is worth adding to hCard to support authors who want to use uids that are not urls. I see the relationship of authority as valuable for other microformats as well, especially hCalendar/vEvent, hResume, and hCite. (Hence my use of ISBN earlier in the conversation.) Because I see it as a larger pattern, I'm less inclined to arbitrarily limit ourselves to hCard's existing semantics. via+via self could be applied anywhere that a brief or transitory microformat could be linked to a verbose, authoritative microformat. That re-usability is, IMHO, well worth a slight modification to incorporate two Atom terms into hCard. (Although, I acknowledge that uid+url may also be a suitable pattern across uFs. Again, it is all about the *should* of uids as urls, whereas "via" *must* be an URL, well, an IRI which is mappable to URI for resolution.) Cheers, -j -- Joe Andrieu joe@andrieu.net +1 (805) 705-8651 From costello at mitre.org Sat Feb 10 11:47:04 2007 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Sat Feb 10 11:47:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on AHAH (such a cool technology!) Message-ID: Hi Folks, I have created a tutorial on AHAH (Asynchronous HTML and HTTP) http://www.xfront.com/microformats/AHAH.html Comments welcome. /Roger From jeremyboggs at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 11:56:24 2007 From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs) Date: Sat Feb 10 11:55:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Book microformat examples - published books or "web-first" books? Message-ID: I added two examples to the book-examples page[1], then I wondered: Is the books microformat focused mainly on books that have been published in print first, then published on the web? Or is the books microformat open to including books published on the web first, then published in print? My first example is a web version of the _Iraq Study Group Report_, which was originally published in print, then put on the web by the Institute for the Future of the Book. The second example is McKenzie Wark's _GAM3R 7H30RY_, which was published first as a draft on the web before going to print. I should note that the Institute for the Future of the Book has a small number of other projects involving books published on the web.[2] Best, Jeremy [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/book-examples [2] http://www.futureofthebook.org/ From angus at pobox.com Sat Feb 10 15:58:17 2007 From: angus at pobox.com (Angus McIntyre) Date: Sat Feb 10 16:09:43 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] "Well-known" URLs Message-ID: I apologize in advance for bringing up something that is not really a microformat (although it's arguably 'microformat-like'), but does anyone know if any projects have looked at identifying and standardizing 'well-known' URLs? By a 'well-known' URL, I mean one that is commonly used across a wide range of websites to point to a particular type of content. Some exist already, usually as a result of a unilateral decision by a provider, i.e. http://somedomain/favicon.ico http://somedomain/sitemaps.xml But I could also imagine others, such as: http://somedomain/help/ http://somedomain/contact/ The alternative to this approach is to use elements with appropriate 'rel' attributes to point the way to a given type of content. In general, I prefer the approach because it allows the author more control over the logical arrangement of their site. However, I'm a big fan of hackability in URLs, so I can actually see some scope for defining a set of 'well-known' URLs for typically-found content. Reactions? Opinions? Pointers to a more appropriate place to look for information or discussion about this? Angus From hober0 at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 17:00:06 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Sat Feb 10 17:00:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: "Well-known" URLs References: Message-ID: <861wkxwlt5.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org> Angus McIntyre wrote: > [D]oes anyone know if any projects have looked at identifying and > standardizing 'well-known' URLs? [...] > Reactions? Opinions? If the intent is simply to document the existing, legacy technologies that rely on such URLs (such as robots.txt), that seems reasonable to me. But no new fixed URLs should be introduced. Here's Joe Gregorio on the subject: http://bitworking.org/news/No_Fishing Ted -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From andy.bourassa at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 23:40:15 2007 From: andy.bourassa at gmail.com (Andy Bourassa) Date: Sat Feb 10 23:40:19 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview - Multiple reviews for one item Message-ID: Excuse me if this has been brought up in the past but... Is there a strong need and/or feasible way to have an XHTML document with a single item listing that is separated from a multitude of reviews of that item elsewhere on the page? Example: cork'd, epinions, yahoo tech - list the item (a product in this case) being reviewed at the top of the page, and then list a handful of reviews lower on the page. It seems the current solution is to simply 'hide' this extra data in every hreview using CSS display: none or some negative pixel offset. Just curious if this has been given any thought/consideration. -Andy Bourassa (I'm new here, and building a review site that uses the hreview draft spec) From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 07:04:49 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Feb 11 07:04:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview - Multiple reviews for one item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780702110704h1ae906a3p445c4bb50a64c95a@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Andy Bourassa wrote: > Excuse me if this has been brought up in the past but... > > Is there a strong need and/or feasible way to have an XHTML document > with a single item listing that is separated from a multitude of > reviews of that item elsewhere on the page? > > Example: cork'd, epinions, yahoo tech - list the item (a product in > this case) being reviewed at the top of the page, and then list a > handful of reviews lower on the page. > > It seems the current solution is to simply 'hide' this extra data in > every hreview using CSS display: none or some negative pixel offset. --- you don't have to hide the data or repeat it at all. You can use the include pattern[1] to reference a section of the page and pull the data from there. You can write the product name and various bits of information, then in each hReview reference back to it. The Yahoo! Tech site does just that: This is in each review That refers back to;

Cell Phones: RIM BlackBerry Pearl 8100...

-brian [1] - http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From microformats at 200ok.com.au Sun Feb 11 16:51:40 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Sun Feb 11 16:51:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace! In-Reply-To: <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780702080105u4205308dla63a8581c62d5933@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702111651r1971e4d8u9d5469e64e9e4e30@mail.gmail.com> > --- sorry if i came across as elitist, but that is my opinion. rel-tag > is about tags, not how to setup tag spaces. I think it is a much > better approach is to NOT change the spec to correspond with broken > implementations. > To encourage adoption, i would suggest (and many have) add to the wiki > alternatives and ways to work around the limitations of servers and > software. One of the biggest complains is with IIS. (i had a look on > the wiki and it is burried) But there is software that can be > installed on Windows to allow for the creation of Tagspaces. I think this highlights the problem. In a perfect world, people will be motivated enough to follow standards. But in the real world, we're asking people to go to their organisation's server admins with "hey guys you have to install stuff on the servers for a purpose you don't know or care about because some spec requires we change our file structure". It makes it harder to sell the concept and if it comes down to something like standards compliance (eg. xhtml validation) vs. uf compliance, advocates will drop ufs for the larger goal. So while purity of uf standards is nice, rel-tag is restrictive in terms of URL requirements and this clashes with real world considerations like human nature :) So even if the decision is to stick with the standard, the uf movement had better accept that it will be that much harder to advocate for its adoption. So the support documentation had better be seriously hot. The wiki does need to expand on the material that's there and (as I mentioned elsewhere) the standards themselves could expand on the *reasons* behind the requirements they set. I've always found people are more receptive to fixing issues when they can understand the reason. When things seem arbitrary, people tend to dig their heels in far more. Just some thoughts anyway. cheers, Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From ryan at ryancannon.com Sun Feb 11 18:16:41 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Sun Feb 11 18:16:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was:UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was:Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <200702101956.l1AJu140007669@microformats.org> References: <200702101956.l1AJu140007669@microformats.org> Message-ID: <1CEBA44C-C4A3-4F17-B0BB-E8BA90E261C4@ryancannon.com> On Feb 10, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote: > Forcing the religion of "uids > should be urls" on the rest of the world is not why we are here. > Making it easy for authors to connect their web content and web > apps with the semantic web is. If someone else likes uids that > aren't urls, and the spec supports that, then why should we keep > them from establishing authoritative hCards? > > ... > > How is via+via self more constraining? You can do everything you > can with uid+url, but you don't have to use URLs for your UIDs. +1 UID+URL *is* more constraining. Like rel-tag, you're forcing a lot of assumptions about the documents *surrounding* these URLs--links have to point somewhere after all. My UID, if you will, is http://ryancannon.com/. I've established it across many different sites as the definitive link for "me". By forcing UID+URL to be used to establish an hCard's source, you're also forcing my most robust hCard must exist at that URL. However, when I redesign my home page, if I want to move my contact information to ryancannon.com/contact my UID shouldn't change--it's still just the domain. However, with URL+UID, I'm screwed. With @rel=via, I can still have the option to point to my full hCard. Also, Ryan, you have yet to address the fact that URL+UID changes the parsing rules of the hCard--not that I believe it is currently ideal. Is it responsible for the community to change the rules of a deployed specification willy-nilly? While the implementation in X2V may be trivial, it may not be in other applications in the wild--it's also not a good precedence to set for uFs in general. For backwards-compatibility alone, @rel=via seems to me an optimal solution. -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From robertc at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 18:49:11 2007 From: robertc at gmail.com (Rob Crowther) Date: Sun Feb 11 18:49:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Training events in hResume Message-ID: <3ce2ebd20702111849x5d80ffa0w44320ef7030c564d@mail.gmail.com> Today I've been working on completing the hResume markup on my CV [1]. I have a section devoted to training courses I've been on and other lectures/presentations I've attended. Can anyone advise, would this be better marked up as 'education', or just plain hCal or perhaps even just use rel-tag, like it's a skill? It seems to me that education is really school and university rather than attending training courses or lectures, but I could be interpreting it wrong, I couldn't find much in the way of examples. I have started marking them up as class="training vevent". Rob [1] http://www.dotrob.com/cv.html From kevinmarks at mac.com Sun Feb 11 19:08:58 2007 From: kevinmarks at mac.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Sun Feb 11 19:09:02 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:54 AM, Ben Buchanan wrote: >> The better approach is to lobby the software/server folks to fix >> their >> implementation, > > Right. On this point, does anyone have a contact at Blogger? Support > emails do not get individual replies so we need someone to contact a > real live human. I have contacts there, yes. > I mean, sure, I can keep banging away at their support form but their > email auto-responder just isn't convinced by my polite inquiries. This > is a big community, surely someone knows someone at Blogger/Google...? > > The issue is this: > > > > ...being the new Blogger's version of tagging. The existence of > rel='tag' suggests a desire to implement rel-tag. The .html suggests > that all Blogger posts will be indexed as tagterm.html Can you show me an example of them getting it wrong? I just republished my son's blog to check: http://funnystories.blogspot.com/2007/02/stop-motion-with-people.html and it correctly used: From kevinmarks at mac.com Sun Feb 11 19:14:29 2007 From: kevinmarks at mac.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Sun Feb 11 19:14:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace! In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780702080105u4205308dla63a8581c62d5933@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2007, at 7:10 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > <21e770780702080641t2c7d5969oe0991a2c937350dc@mail.gmail.com>, Brian > Suda writes > >> --- i agree with all of this, and that is why microformats do not >> force you to use your own tagspace. There are plenty of sites that >> can >> easily be used as tagspaces[1] > > There's also an implicit assumption that publishers (who don't have > their own tag spaces) are (or should be) willing to litter their pages > with links to third party websites. > > I've yet to see any justification for that assumption. The several million existing users of rel-tag are sufficient justification for me. If your second party website (the blog hosting service) is not sufficient eg wordpress, blogger or livejournal), and you can't find a third party tagspace who represents your tag's definition, I am a little stumped. What is the actual objection here? You could put rel="tag nofollow" on them if it is SEO linkjuice related. From microformats at 200ok.com.au Sun Feb 11 19:25:22 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Sun Feb 11 19:25:27 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> > > Right. On this point, does anyone have a contact at Blogger? Support > > emails do not get individual replies so we need someone to contact a > > real live human. > I have contacts there, yes. [snip] > Can you show me an example of them getting it wrong? Some contact was made on the 9th, so perhaps things really have moved that quickly! There's been no mention on http://knownissues.blogspot.com/ as yet. For reference, a test post published earlier shows the error: http://itn278.200ok.com.au/2007/01/test-post.html It contains which is what the new Blogger was producing on Jan 31st (page template is one of the standard Blogger templates, I think one or two modifications but nothing which would effect the output of tags). cheers Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From horsepigcow at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 20:43:14 2007 From: horsepigcow at gmail.com (Tara Hunt) Date: Sun Feb 11 20:43:17 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <310024cb0702112043j2814ca43h3132b9101a9e8749@mail.gmail.com> I contacted one of the product managers we know at Blogger, Eric Case...he's usually pretty great at getting back right away. Tara On 2/11/07, Ben Buchanan wrote: > > > Right. On this point, does anyone have a contact at Blogger? Support > > > emails do not get individual replies so we need someone to contact a > > > real live human. > > I have contacts there, yes. > [snip] > > Can you show me an example of them getting it wrong? > > Some contact was made on the 9th, so perhaps things really have moved > that quickly! There's been no mention on > http://knownissues.blogspot.com/ as yet. > > For reference, a test post published earlier shows the error: > http://itn278.200ok.com.au/2007/01/test-post.html > > It contains > which is what the new Blogger was producing on Jan 31st (page template > is one of the standard Blogger templates, I think one or two > modifications but nothing which would effect the output of tags). > > cheers > > Ben > > -- > --- > --- The future has arrived; it's just not > --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Sincerely, Tara ----------------------- tara 'miss rogue' hunt agent provocateur Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com) blog: www.horsepigcow.com phone: 415-694-1951 fax: 415-727-5335 From kevinmarks at mac.com Sun Feb 11 20:52:05 2007 From: kevinmarks at mac.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Sun Feb 11 20:52:43 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2007, at 7:25 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: >> > Right. On this point, does anyone have a contact at Blogger? >> Support >> > emails do not get individual replies so we need someone to >> contact a >> > real live human. >> I have contacts there, yes. > [snip] >> Can you show me an example of them getting it wrong? > > Some contact was made on the 9th, so perhaps things really have moved > that quickly! There's been no mention on > http://knownissues.blogspot.com/ as yet. > > For reference, a test post published earlier shows the error: > http://itn278.200ok.com.au/2007/01/test-post.html > > It contains > which is what the new Blogger was producing on Jan 31st (page template > is one of the standard Blogger templates, I think one or two > modifications but nothing which would effect the output of tags). Try making a fresh post, or republishing that one. This may be a blogger issue with publishing via ftp? From ryan at ryancannon.com Sun Feb 11 21:38:16 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Sun Feb 11 21:38:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] "Well-known" URLs In-Reply-To: <200702120314.l1C3ErjN026600@microformats.org> References: <200702120314.l1C3ErjN026600@microformats.org> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2007, at 10:14 PM, Angus McIntyre wrote: > Pointers to a more appropriate place to look for > information or discussion about this? This is exactly the problem with "Well-known" URLs. However, if you're making a database of them, Flash looks for a cross-domain policy file at /crossdomain.xml. Check out the Adobe knowledgebase article[1] for more info. [1]: http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=tn_14213 -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From ryan at ryancannon.com Sun Feb 11 21:59:38 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Sun Feb 11 21:59:43 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace! In-Reply-To: <200702120314.l1C3ErjN026600@microformats.org> References: <200702120314.l1C3ErjN026600@microformats.org> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2007, at 10:14 PM, microformats-discuss- request@microformats.org wrote: > What is the actual objection here? > > You could put rel="tag nofollow" on them if it is SEO linkjuice > related. What about usability linkjuice? I don't want my users to drift off to a third-party site, and I don't want them presented with a huge array of clickable options. I simply want a machine-consumable, human-readable list of tags. My best option here is something along the lines of: tag The URL requirement for rel-tag is elegant, but it's in no way humans- first. This is disturbing not because of it's relation to tagging blog posts in blogging software (which is a simple use of it) but the fact that it's becoming a common means of labeling across microformats: it's optional for categories in hCard, required for categories in hAtom, required for skills in hResume (absurd!), and required for keywords in hReview. Rel-tag is becoming a de-facto standard for any type of taxonomy data in microformats. As the number and complexity of microformats increases, this is going to become a problem for implementors. -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From mdagn at spraci.com Mon Feb 12 17:46:48 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Sun Feb 11 22:46:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues - need to pass session id in url for mobile site References: <200702120314.l1C3ErjN026600@microformats.org> Message-ID: <008201c74f10$d6a66a90$116bacca@COMCEN> > What about usability linkjuice? I don't want my users to drift off to a > third-party site, and I don't want them presented with a huge array of > clickable options. I simply want a machine-consumable, human-readable > list of tags. > I've got another problem here... I want to use my own tagspace but can't use it on the mobile version of the site (mobile xhtml) because I need to pass session ids in the urls. (a lot of phone browsers don't do cookies) I don't want people getting logged out just because they went to a tag url! They don't need to be logged in to see the tag urls but people might then go from there to some other part of the site that needs logins such as forms for posting stuff. From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 03:07:44 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Mon Feb 12 03:07:49 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues - need to pass session id in url for mobile site In-Reply-To: <008201c74f10$d6a66a90$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <200702120314.l1C3ErjN026600@microformats.org> <008201c74f10$d6a66a90$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <21e770780702120307k45e8fd46qa57ae6c446148bd@mail.gmail.com> On 2/13/07, Michael MD wrote: > I've got another problem here... I want to use my own tagspace but can't use > it on the mobile version of the site (mobile xhtml) because I need to pass > session ids in the urls. > (a lot of phone browsers don't do cookies) > I don't want people getting logged out just because they went to a tag url! you can still pass parameters to a Tagspace, /tags/foobar?CID=1234&login=true&session=12345 the tag is still just 'foobar' Query strings and anchors are ignored in context of the TAG and TAGSPACE, but are still part of the URL. They are valid links and valid rel-tag URLs. This shouldn't be a problem. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Mon Feb 12 03:38:45 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Mon Feb 12 03:38:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was:UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was:Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <1CEBA44C-C4A3-4F17-B0BB-E8BA90E261C4@ryancannon.com> References: <200702101956.l1AJu140007669@microformats.org> <1CEBA44C-C4A3-4F17-B0BB-E8BA90E261C4@ryancannon.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20702120338j312e34c2t789afbc16fc5d2a0@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Ryan Cannon wrote: > UID+URL *is* more constraining. Like rel-tag, you're forcing a lot of > assumptions about the documents *surrounding* these URLs--links have > to point somewhere after all. > > My UID, if you will, is http://ryancannon.com/. I've established it > across many different sites as the definitive link for "me". By > forcing UID+URL to be used to establish an hCard's source, you're > also forcing my most robust hCard must exist at that URL. Absolutely not. Look at the discussions I've been having with Ryan King, and in particular, the examples and algorithms applied to same. Explicitly we use RK's home page as an intermediate pointer link to another location where the authoritative hCard lives. Regards, etc... David David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From costello at mitre.org Mon Feb 12 03:57:42 2007 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Mon Feb 12 03:57:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ANN: Microformats Tutorials Message-ID: Hi Folks, I have created a set of tutorials on the core Microformats. The tutorials contain lots of examples and lab exercises. http://www.xfront.com/microformats Comments welcome. /Roger From microformats at 200ok.com.au Mon Feb 12 05:15:16 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Mon Feb 12 05:15:20 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702120515o15e8dc70g3c902385b3f3f2fe@mail.gmail.com> > > For reference, a test post published earlier shows the error: > > http://itn278.200ok.com.au/2007/01/test-post.html > Try making a fresh post, or republishing that one. This may be a > blogger issue with publishing via ftp? I created a new test post (http://itn278.200ok.com.au/2007/02/another-tag-test.html) and republished the entire blog. The old format persists. I also created a test on a blog that's also published via FTP but had no previous "labelled" posts; it produced (I've removed the post now). However a test on blogspot-hosted blog produced So, it looks like so far Blogger have only changed to a compliant format for blogspot-hosted blogs. Guess we'll wait and see if that's resolved. cheers, Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From ramsey.pat at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 06:31:59 2007 From: ramsey.pat at gmail.com (Pat Ramsey) Date: Mon Feb 12 06:32:01 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Training events in hResume In-Reply-To: <3ce2ebd20702111849x5d80ffa0w44320ef7030c564d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3ce2ebd20702111849x5d80ffa0w44320ef7030c564d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <83a2ad2f0702120631j2778e773x6b12afe8f5af66a2@mail.gmail.com> Training being a learning experience, I would think marking it up as education is appropriate. Pat On 2/11/07, Rob Crowther wrote: > Today I've been working on completing the hResume markup on my CV [1]. > I have a section devoted to training courses I've been on and other > lectures/presentations I've attended. Can anyone advise, would this > be better marked up as 'education', or just plain hCal or perhaps even > just use rel-tag, like it's a skill? It seems to me that education is > really school and university rather than attending training courses or > lectures, but I could be interpreting it wrong, I couldn't find much > in the way of examples. > > I have started marking them up as class="training vevent". > > Rob > > -- Pat Ramsey ramsey.pat@gmail.com http://www.southwestern.edu/~ramseyp From ryan at ryancannon.com Mon Feb 12 06:36:44 2007 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Mon Feb 12 06:36:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was:UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was:Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2007, at 8:16 AM, David Janes wrote: > On 2/11/07, Ryan Cannon wrote: >> UID+URL *is* more constraining. Like rel-tag, you're forcing a lot of >> assumptions about the documents *surrounding* these URLs--links have >> to point somewhere after all. >> >> My UID, if you will, is http://ryancannon.com/. I've established it >> across many different sites as the definitive link for "me". By >> forcing UID+URL to be used to establish an hCard's source, you're >> also forcing my most robust hCard must exist at that URL. > > Absolutely not. Look at the discussions I've been having with Ryan > King, and in particular, the examples and algorithms applied to same. > Explicitly we use RK's home page as an intermediate pointer link to > another location where the authoritative hCard lives. This is the algorithm you're describing, right? > Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: > > 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion > => you're done > 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the > new hCard with the result that > At each of these URLs it finds another hCard that leads on again, thus > identifying a series of related hCards. All of which are tied, by > virtue of the UID, to the value of the element (from http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007- February/008658.html) This looks to me like it abuses the semantics of UID. If you're creating a chain of hCards with UID, how does that property describe > a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or > resource associated with the vCard. (from http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt) Is RK's UID http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard or http:// theryanking.com? Each hCard in that chain contains a *different* UID. That's not a globally unique identifier. The *object identifier* of the hCard and the *source document* for the hCard are two semantically different things, and need two different constructs. -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Mon Feb 12 06:57:39 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Mon Feb 12 06:57:43 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] VIA or VIA SELF to indicate authoritative hCard[was:UID URL to indicate (relatively) more authoritativehCard(Was:Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate anauthoritative hCard)] In-Reply-To: References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> Message-ID: <21e523c20702120657r14e90c2dl953fe4d425df43a2@mail.gmail.com> On 2/12/07, Ryan Cannon wrote: > On Feb 12, 2007, at 8:16 AM, David Janes wrote: > > > On 2/11/07, Ryan Cannon wrote: > >> UID+URL *is* more constraining. Like rel-tag, you're forcing a lot of > >> assumptions about the documents *surrounding* these URLs--links have > >> to point somewhere after all. > >> > >> My UID, if you will, is http://ryancannon.com/. I've established it > >> across many different sites as the definitive link for "me". By > >> forcing UID+URL to be used to establish an hCard's source, you're > >> also forcing my most robust hCard must exist at that URL. > > > > Absolutely not. Look at the discussions I've been having with Ryan > > King, and in particular, the examples and algorithms applied to same. > > Explicitly we use RK's home page as an intermediate pointer link to > > another location where the authoritative hCard lives. > > This is the algorithm you're describing, right? > > > Also, the algorithm for finding the most authoritative hCard: > > > > 1. if no uid or uid == the uid from the previous iteration/recursion > > => you're done > > 2. if url == uid and there's an hCard at that url, recurse with the > > new hCard > > with the result that > > > At each of these URLs it finds another hCard that leads on again, thus > > identifying a series of related hCards. All of which are tied, by > > virtue of the UID, to the value of the element > > (from http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007- > February/008658.html) > > This looks to me like it abuses the semantics of UID. If you're creating > a chain of hCards with UID, how does that property describe > > > a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or > > resource associated with the vCard. > > (from http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt) > > Is RK's UID http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard or http:// > theryanking.com? > > Each hCard in that chain contains a *different* UID. That's not a > globally unique identifier. The *object identifier* of the hCard > and the *source document* for the hCard are two semantically different > things, and need two different constructs. Yes, that is more or less the algorithm being described, illustrated furthermore by clarifications and examples. The algorithm leads you to the authoritative hCard without having to have that on RK's home page. I can see arguments for an against using UID, certainly not least of them being that it would nice if RK only had one UID. However, consumers following the algorithm will not be confused as the UID on RK's home page "upgrades" to the one on his /contacts page. Furthermore, the (newish) usage of UID+URL suggests there's something to look for on the next link. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From microformats at kaply.com Mon Feb 12 07:37:27 2007 From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply) Date: Mon Feb 12 07:37:30 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/11/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > > On Feb 11, 2007, at 7:25 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: > > It contains > > which is what the new Blogger was producing on Jan 31st (page template > > is one of the standard Blogger templates, I think one or two > > modifications but nothing which would effect the output of tags). > > Try making a fresh post, or republishing that one. This may be a > blogger issue with publishing via ftp? When I debugged this problem, that is exactly what I discovered. It is only broke when you publish via FTP. It is not broke when you are hosted by blogger. I switched to WordPress because of this problem. Mike Kaply From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Feb 12 08:01:56 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Feb 12 08:02:13 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] SOURCE+URL to indicate authoritative hCard (was UID+URL vs. VIA) In-Reply-To: References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> Message-ID: Has anyone looked at using the SOURCE property from vCard to indicate a more authoritative hCard? It seems to be much closer to what we're talking about than UID. The value is already defined as URI. Peace, Scott From ryan at technorati.com Mon Feb 12 11:05:19 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Feb 12 11:05:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] SOURCE+URL to indicate authoritative hCard (was UID+URL vs. VIA) In-Reply-To: References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> Message-ID: <16AEE3EB-6BCE-4EE9-AA2C-1855687FFED4@technorati.com> On Feb 12, 2007, at 8:01 AM, Scott Reynen wrote: > Has anyone looked at using the SOURCE property from vCard to > indicate a more authoritative hCard? It seems to be much closer to > what we're talking about than UID. The value is already defined as > URI. SOURCE is already used by X2V to indicate the URL at which the current hCard is available. I don't think we'd be able to override that at this point. -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From jcraig at apple.com Mon Feb 12 11:23:57 2007 From: jcraig at apple.com (James Craig) Date: Mon Feb 12 11:23:59 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <27888F9C-1F25-4A60-ABBB-3E9DA47AC7AA@apple.com> On Feb 12, 2007, at 7:37 AM, Mike Kaply wrote: > On 2/11/07, Kevin Marks wrote: >> >> Try making a fresh post, or republishing that one. This may be a >> blogger issue with publishing via ftp? > > When I debugged this problem, that is exactly what I discovered. It is > only broke when you publish via FTP. It is not broke when you are > hosted by blogger. > > I switched to WordPress because of this problem. Exactly. But this is not a problem with Blogger, this is a solution to a larger, more practical problem than rel-tag. The Blogger developers have to support plain-old web hosts without modification of the server config; a link URL to a restful tag space is not going to work on most simple web hosts. The Blogger developers know this and have to append .html onto the files they publish. The fact that the Blogger developers cannot implement to spec?or would need an even hackier workaround* in order to implement the rel-tag spec?is indicative of a problem with the spec. I'm not saying we all need to agree to the solution, I'm merely suggesting that it's either naive or arrogant to defiantly deny there is a problem. Cheers, James PS. The hackier workaround for Blogger; feel free to forward to your contacts there if you think this is a viable solution (I don't): myURL.com links tagspace to blogger redirect site like so: blogger.com/tags/redirect/siteID/tagspace with a 301 to back to the actual tagspace on the hosted site. myURL.com links to: http://blogger.com/tagredirect/mySiteId/foo responds with a 301 (moved perm) to http://myURL.com/labels/foo.html Though this is a "solution" (finger quotes emphasized), I hope the ridiculousness of it hammers home our point that there is a problem with the rel-tag spec. From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Feb 12 12:37:40 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Feb 12 12:37:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] SOURCE+URL to indicate authoritative hCard (was UID+URL vs. VIA) In-Reply-To: <16AEE3EB-6BCE-4EE9-AA2C-1855687FFED4@technorati.com> References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> <16AEE3EB-6BCE-4EE9-AA2C-1855687FFED4@technorati.com> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Ryan King wrote: >> Has anyone looked at using the SOURCE property from vCard to >> indicate a more authoritative hCard? It seems to be much closer >> to what we're talking about than UID. The value is already >> defined as URI. > > SOURCE is already used by X2V to indicate the URL at which the > current hCard is available. I don't think we'd be able to override > that at this point. I'm confused. X2V uses SOURCE to point to a more authoritative hCard. Isn't that exactly what we're talking about? Why would we need to override anything? Peace, Scott From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Feb 12 12:48:22 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Feb 12 12:48:50 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: <27888F9C-1F25-4A60-ABBB-3E9DA47AC7AA@apple.com> References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> <27888F9C-1F25-4A60-ABBB-3E9DA47AC7AA@apple.com> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:23 PM, James Craig wrote: > The Blogger developers have to support plain-old web hosts without > modification of the server config; a link URL to a restful tag > space is not going to work on most simple web hosts. This may not solve 100% of issues, but I think Blogger could make over 90% of plain-old web hosts work with the current rel-tag spec by simply uploading tagname/index.html instead of tagname.html and then point links to tagname/ (which resolves to index.html on most plain- old web hosts). Peace, Scott From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 12:49:34 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Mon Feb 12 12:49:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] SOURCE+URL to indicate authoritative hCard (was UID+URL vs. VIA) In-Reply-To: References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> <16AEE3EB-6BCE-4EE9-AA2C-1855687FFED4@technorati.com> Message-ID: <21e770780702121249m21e0d79bh74e833fffa4dca31@mail.gmail.com> On 2/12/07, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Ryan King wrote: > > >> Has anyone looked at using the SOURCE property from vCard to > >> indicate a more authoritative hCard? It seems to be much closer > >> to what we're talking about than UID. The value is already > >> defined as URI. > > > > SOURCE is already used by X2V to indicate the URL at which the > > current hCard is available. I don't think we'd be able to override > > that at this point. SOURCE is just the 'source' of where the the hcard came from. 2.1.4 SOURCE Type If the SOURCE type is present, then its value provides information how to find the source for the vCard. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From jcraig at apple.com Mon Feb 12 13:25:10 2007 From: jcraig at apple.com (James Craig) Date: Mon Feb 12 13:25:13 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> <27888F9C-1F25-4A60-ABBB-3E9DA47AC7AA@apple.com> Message-ID: <02536C42-DF21-46EF-A564-0E97733329A8@apple.com> Scott Reynen wrote: > This may not solve 100% of issues, but I think Blogger could make > over 90% of plain-old web hosts work with the current rel-tag spec > by simply uploading tagname/index.html instead of tagname.html and > then point links to tagname/ (which resolves to index.html on most > plain-old web hosts). The simplest solution is usually the best, eh? Good idea. *slaps forehead* For the record though, I still think there should be markup-only fallback, such as putting the tagName in a title attribute. either or From steve at ganz.name Mon Feb 12 13:53:01 2007 From: steve at ganz.name (Steve Ganz) Date: Mon Feb 12 13:54:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Training events in hResume In-Reply-To: <3ce2ebd20702111849x5d80ffa0w44320ef7030c564d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3ce2ebd20702111849x5d80ffa0w44320ef7030c564d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c74ef0$2cfe7660$6501a8c0@FIVE> On Sunday, February 11, 2007 6:49 PM Rob Crowther wrote > Today I've been working on completing the hResume markup on my CV [1]. > I have a section devoted to training courses I've been on > and other lectures/presentations I've attended. Can anyone > advise, would this be better marked up as 'education', or > just plain hCal or perhaps even just use rel-tag, like it's a > skill? It seems to me that education is really school and > university rather than attending training courses or > lectures, but I could be interpreting it wrong, I couldn't > find much in the way of examples. It really comes down to how you want this information categorized elsewhere when it's out of the context of your visually formatted CV. In other words, the hResume parsers that might consume your CV will not take the heading of "Training" with it and will lump the lectures/presentations with your "Education". > I have started marking them up as class="training vevent". That makes sense. Best, Steve From microformats at 200ok.com.au Mon Feb 12 14:27:54 2007 From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan) Date: Mon Feb 12 14:27:58 2007 Subject: [advocacy] Contacting Blogger (was Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues...) In-Reply-To: References: <6ca82b0f0702080354l226390a8q7b9a8c2900806c26@mail.gmail.com> <1450BDD4-BB19-4C3F-BC5C-B922CAAF0851@mac.com> <6ca82b0f0702111925w3c493bb0i3c9634af62c65b6a@mail.gmail.com> <27888F9C-1F25-4A60-ABBB-3E9DA47AC7AA@apple.com> Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0702121427t365c5e2k4c91c90279a87ede@mail.gmail.com> > This may not solve 100% of issues, but I think Blogger could make > over 90% of plain-old web hosts work with the current rel-tag spec by > simply uploading tagname/index.html instead of tagname.html and then > point links to tagname/ (which resolves to index.html on most plain- > old web hosts). I'm hoping they switch to the tagname/index.html solution - it seems logical enough and the only downside would be some more FTP overhead (which I for one am more than willing to wear). Unless of course there's something in Blogger's code base which would come into play. Personally I'd like to see the directory+index.html solution for all Blogger pages, it'd pave the way to eventually allow other formats like PHP, for one thing. But anyway, that's off the topic. cheers, Ben -- --- --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson From ryan at technorati.com Mon Feb 12 14:40:46 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Feb 12 14:40:49 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] SOURCE+URL to indicate authoritative hCard (was UID+URL vs. VIA) In-Reply-To: <21e770780702121249m21e0d79bh74e833fffa4dca31@mail.gmail.com> References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> <16AEE3EB-6BCE-4EE9-AA2C-1855687FFED4@technorati.com> <21e770780702121249m21e0d79bh74e833fffa4dca31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F5453C6-9141-4EE6-B1E1-3ECEFE672D61@technorati.com> On Feb 12, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Brian Suda wrote: > On 2/12/07, Scott Reynen wrote: >> On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Ryan King wrote: >> >> >> Has anyone looked at using the SOURCE property from vCard to >> >> indicate a more authoritative hCard? It seems to be much closer >> >> to what we're talking about than UID. The value is already >> >> defined as URI. >> > >> > SOURCE is already used by X2V to indicate the URL at which the >> > current hCard is available. I don't think we'd be able to override >> > that at this point. > > SOURCE is just the 'source' of where the the hcard came from. > > 2.1.4 SOURCE Type > > If the SOURCE type is present, then its value provides information > how to find the source for the vCard. SOURCE in vCard is essentially the same as self in Atom (AFAICT). -ryan -- Ryan King ryan@technorati.com From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Feb 12 15:13:19 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Feb 12 15:13:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] SOURCE+URL to indicate authoritative hCard (was UID+URL vs. VIA) In-Reply-To: <5F5453C6-9141-4EE6-B1E1-3ECEFE672D61@technorati.com> References: <200702121316.l1CDG9OY026442@microformats.org> <16AEE3EB-6BCE-4EE9-AA2C-1855687FFED4@technorati.com> <21e770780702121249m21e0d79bh74e833fffa4dca31@mail.gmail.com> <5F5453C6-9141-4EE6-B1E1-3ECEFE672D61@technorati.com> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2007, at 4:40 PM, Ryan King wrote: >> SOURCE is just the 'source' of where the the hcard came from. >> >> 2.1.4 SOURCE Type >> >> If the SOURCE type is present, then its value provides information >> how to find the source for the vCard. > > SOURCE in vCard is essentially the same as self in Atom (AFAICT). I think SOURCE is actually closer to VIA in Atom, as "the source of the information provided in the containing element," which is why I suggested it. As I understood the arguments between UID+URL and VIA (and I may well have missed some key points), UID+URL is good because it's already in vCard, but bad because not all UIDs point to more authoritative hCards. And VIA is good because the source of information is always more authoritative than the derivative, but bad because it's not already in vCard. So SOURCE+URL seems good because the source of information is always more authoritative than the derivative, and also good because it's already in vCard. vCard's SOURCE is taken from RFC 2425, which offers an explanation that sounds to me like what we're trying to accomplish: > The SOURCE type is used to provide the means by > which applications knowledgable in the given directory service > protocol can obtain additional or more up-to-date information from > the directory service. "Additional or more up-to-date information" is what we're looking for in an authoritative hCard, right? Peace, Scott From bewest at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 17:00:31 2007 From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West) Date: Mon Feb 12 17:00:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on AHAH (such a cool technology!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ad71be30702121700pb61c8a9tef42c06a1bf06f7c@mail.gmail.com> Roger, Neat stuff. I thought it was pretty good, but take some issue with the following: photo The best practice is to wire the event up, and to use a button when the element is not truly a link. Something more like: or even better: > > -Ben > Just one thing, >> >> or even better: >> >> >> -Ben On 2/10/07, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I have created a tutorial on AHAH (Asynchronous HTML and HTTP) > > http://www.xfront.com/microformats/AHAH.html > > Comments welcome. > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:23:09 +0000 From: "Rob Crowther" Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Training events in hResume To: "Microformats Discuss" Message-ID: <3ce2ebd20702130323n28897ca9h33521323803dcccc@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 12/02/07, Pat Ramsey wrote: > Training being a learning experience, I would think marking it up as > education is appropriate. > But work is (or perhaps should be) a 'learning experience' too. It's not quite the same thing, but most application forms I've filled in have had separate sections for Education and Training. A quick google for some examples: 1 - http://www.chichester.gov.uk/your_council/council_jobs/copy_of_job_appln_for m1.cfm (link to Word doc on page) - Has an 'EDUCATION & PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS' section, separate boxes for schooling, professional qualifications and 'other relevant training' but all under the same heading. 2 - http://www.tendringdc.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/E8AE5F2D-4F09-46F7-8044-9A45A924CD CE/0/ApplicationForm130306.pdf - seperate sections for Education and Professional Qualifications 3 - http://www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/B1491.pdf - separate sections for Education and Training, though the distinction is that anything which leads to a qualification is Education, and everything else is Training. This is perhaps a more useful practical distinction than the slightly nebulous concepts I had in mind. 4 - http://www.scope.org.uk/downloads/jobs/jobapp_may05.doc - similar to 3, things with an exam are Education, other things are Training. 5 - http://www.rhul.ac.uk/personnel/application.pdf - similar to 1, all in one section but sperate boxes for School, Further/Higher Education, Formal Qualifications and Other Training 6 - http://www.broxtowe.gov.uk/application_form_april_2006.pdf - Education and Training all in the same box/section. On the basis of the above examples, I would suggest that a distinction between education and training could be useful as clearly employers sometimes see them as distinct concepts. Rob ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:30:46 -0500 From: "Ara Pehlivanian" Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Tutorial on AHAH (such a cool technology!) To: "Microformats Discuss" Message-ID: <923a87360702130430w46d10241q5265c9a645e33cfe@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 2/12/07, Benjamin West wrote: > Roger, > Neat stuff. I thought it was pretty good, but take some issue with the > following: > > photo > > The best practice is to wire the event up, and to use a button when > the element is not truly a link. > > Something more like: > > > > or even better: > > >