From microformats at 200ok.com.au  Mon Jan  1 04:18:22 2007
From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan)
Date: Mon Jan  1 04:18:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>

> "describes the relationship from the current document to the anchor
> specified by the href attribute"[2]
> "nsfw" describes the authors opinion of the nature of the content to
> be found at the end of the link, and by no means the nature of the
> relationships between the destination and source documents.

I'm not immediately convinced that it isn't it a relationship. NSFW
would formalise the fact that document A:
1) contains a link to document B
2) document A's author considers document B "not safe for work" by
their own standards

> 2. this is not visible metadata (nor is nofollow, for that matter)

Nor are tags, for that matter. Tags encourage visible meta-data, but
the actual functional meta-data is invisible[1]. It's a uf
"requirement" which is inconsistently maintained.

> It certainly, as has been more than once mentioned, doesn't pave the
> cowpaths (where explicit visible content in the page (though not
> always in the link content) is how nsfw is almost invariably indicated.)

Perhaps a more workable uf would be:

<a href="URL">Blah blah <abbr title="full text"
class="nsfw">language/culture-appropriate warning text</abbr></a>

This would allow for a consistent marker (the class); the warning
remains visible; it can only apply to one <a> (unambiguous).

At any rate, this does appear to be a moot point[2]. Out of curiosity,
is there a formal set of criteria that are applied to deeming a uf
"rejected"?

cheers,

Ben

[1] I expand on my thoughts at
http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2006/01/limitations-of-rel-microformat.html
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/rejected-formats#Content_Rating

-- 
--- <http://www.200ok.com.au/>
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
From timber at lava.net  Mon Jan  1 05:17:16 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 05:17:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>

On Jan 1, 2007, at 2:18 AM, Ben Buchanan wrote:

> I'm not immediately convinced that it isn't it a relationship. NSFW
> would formalise the fact that document A:
> 1) contains a link to document B
> 2) document A's author considers document B "not safe for work" by
> their own standards

This isn't a relationship. This is document author A's opinion of  
document B.

Tagging is probably a better uF for this, IMO. I like the idea, but  
someone pointed out (before the post on this list) that it's the wrong  
semantics for @rel. For the semantic web to go further, we really do  
need to respect the semantics established in standards documents.

-Colin
From costello at mitre.org  Mon Jan  1 05:59:15 2007
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Mon Jan  1 05:59:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] I have filled in the hCalendar profile page;
	please check for accuracy
Message-ID: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601477200@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>

Hi Folks,

I have filled in the hCalendar profile page:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-profile

Hopefully I have done it correctly.  Please check it for accuracy.

/Roger

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan  1 07:51:20 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 07:53:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>
Message-ID: <I8hoGEE43SmFFwdr@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>, Colin
Barrett <timber@lava.net> writes

>Tagging is probably a better uF for this, IMO. I like the idea, but
>someone pointed out (before the post on this list) that it's the wrong
>semantics for @rel. For the semantic web to go further, we really do
>need to respect the semantics established in standards documents.

I thought tagging was for tagging the current page, not labelling a link
to a second page.

How would you tag:

        <p>
        Here's a
        <a href="http://example.com/kitten.jpg">fluffy kitten</a>
        and here's a
        <a href="http://example.com/porn.jpg">pornographic nude</a>
        </p>

?

-- 
Andy Mabbett

                        Merry Bloomin' Christmas!
From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Mon Jan  1 08:10:59 2007
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Mon Jan  1 08:10:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Footnotes
In-Reply-To: <008301c72d0b$c7252920$2102fea9@Guides.local>
References: <008301c72d0b$c7252920$2102fea9@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <86D1D888-1067-493C-B61B-A35EE900D7A2@gmail.com>

On Dec 31, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:

> Exactly. The only use-case I forsee is for blog footnotes. There  
> may be
> others, but in the spirit of going with existing markup, using for  
> a blog is
> what I'm currently[1] doing.

Some examples of footnoting and endnoting can be found in:

1. Blogs
2. Electronic Journals and journal articles
3. Pre-Print archives/self-archiving of academic papers.
4. Online books
5. Online conferences

A good start for discussing the limitations of footnoting on the web,  
regarding tools, markup strategies, and presentation, is Paula  
Petrik's "Scholarship on the Web: Managing & Presenting Footnotes &  
Endnotes." [1] Paula doesn't discuss microformats, but in addition to  
markup examples, she also points to various discussions about  
footnoting/endnoting at the W3C and others. It's very brief, but it  
might be helpful.

I'm glad to help put footnoting through the microformats process,  
find specific examples, et cetera. I already have a number of  
examples from my research on electronic scholarship that I can  
contribute to a footnotes-examples page.

Jeremy Boggs

[1] http://www.archiva.net/footnote/index.htm

From timber at lava.net  Mon Jan  1 08:14:21 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 08:14:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <I8hoGEE43SmFFwdr@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>
	<I8hoGEE43SmFFwdr@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C0EAAF63-183D-4433-93AB-84D3FB36F68A@lava.net>

On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:51 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> I thought tagging was for tagging the current page, not labelling a  
> link
> to a second page.

It could be expanded to include links? -- I don't know a whole lot  
about it, it was suggested in the discussion I had with someone where  
it was pointed out that this is an incorrect use of rel.
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Mon Jan  1 09:29:51 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Mon Jan  1 09:29:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <C0EAAF63-183D-4433-93AB-84D3FB36F68A@lava.net>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>
	<I8hoGEE43SmFFwdr@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C0EAAF63-183D-4433-93AB-84D3FB36F68A@lava.net>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701010929u1cfe6dcfjd77cc79c9b9656dc@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:51 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> > I thought tagging was for tagging the current page, not labelling a
> > link
> > to a second page.
>
> It could be expanded to include links? -- I don't know a whole lot
> about it, it was suggested in the discussion I had with someone where
> it was pointed out that this is an incorrect use of rel.

I don't believe rel-tag is an incorrect use of 'rel'.  @rel="tag"
means that the page being linked to is a tag for the current page.
The linked page should ideally contain a definition of what the tag
means.

Another @rel value that is more similar to the @rel="nsfw" would be
@rel="no-follow", which is trying to express an opinion about the
linked page rather than describing the link relationship.

My own opinion is that a rating is more like an hReview, but the
semantics don't correspond too well.

-Ciaran McNulty
From timber at lava.net  Mon Jan  1 10:00:21 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 10:00:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701010929u1cfe6dcfjd77cc79c9b9656dc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>
	<I8hoGEE43SmFFwdr@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C0EAAF63-183D-4433-93AB-84D3FB36F68A@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701010929u1cfe6dcfjd77cc79c9b9656dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7F947CA-2B2A-42A1-AC80-D9F08B689816@lava.net>

On Jan 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:

> On 1/1/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
>> On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:51 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
>> > I thought tagging was for tagging the current page, not labelling a
>> > link
>> > to a second page.
>>
>> It could be expanded to include links? -- I don't know a whole lot
>> about it, it was suggested in the discussion I had with someone where
>> it was pointed out that this is an incorrect use of rel.
>
> I don't believe rel-tag is an incorrect use of 'rel'.  @rel="tag"
> means that the page being linked to is a tag for the current page.
> The linked page should ideally contain a definition of what the tag
> means.

I didn't mean to imply that rel-tag was an improper use of rel. I  
meant rel-nsfw.

> Another @rel value that is more similar to the @rel="nsfw" would be
> @rel="no-follow", which is trying to express an opinion about the
> linked page rather than describing the link relationship.

Not really -- it's saying that this link isn't a link that should be  
followed by an automated search engine. The relationship between  
document A and document B is "don't follow if you're a search engine".

You can't really find an appropriate way to finish the sentence "The  
relationship between document A and document B is ________" with rel- 
nsfw. It's a pretty good litmus test for the correct usage of @rel.
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan  1 10:46:21 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 10:47:50 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701010929u1cfe6dcfjd77cc79c9b9656dc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>
	<I8hoGEE43SmFFwdr@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C0EAAF63-183D-4433-93AB-84D3FB36F68A@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701010929u1cfe6dcfjd77cc79c9b9656dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WoAvTML9bVmFFwu$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<cdc278e10701010929u1cfe6dcfjd77cc79c9b9656dc@mail.gmail.com>, Ciaran
McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>Another @rel value that is more similar to the @rel="nsfw" would be
>@rel="no-follow", which is trying to express an opinion about the
>linked page rather than describing the link relationship.

Having re-read the original "content rating" discussion, it's clear that
the initial proposal was for a uF for ratings of a current page, for
which tagging was, not unreasonably, suggested.

The current proposal is for a method of "rating" (in a very loose sense)
the page which is being linked to, and for which tagging is not
appropriate.

They are clearly *NOT* the same, so I've removed reference to the latter
from the "rejected formats" page:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/rejected-formats>

For the current use-case, what seems to be need (or, perhaps, "wanted")
is a way of labelling an "a" element, for which:

        rel=[rating]
or
        class=[rating]

might be more appropriate. So we might, hypothetically, use the ICRA
vocabulary:

        <http://www.icra.org/vocabulary/>

thus:

        <a class="icra injury-human">
           http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Boxing080905.jpg
        </a>

        <a class="icra visible-genitals artistic">
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Anadyomene.jpg
        </a>



For the sake of transparency, I should state that I am against a uF for
rating linked pages as "NSFW" (on in any other, similarly arbitrary and
culturally insensitive manner); I am ambivalent about a uF for rating
linked pages according to a /relatively/ neutral, descriptive schema
such as ICRA:

        <http://www.icra.org/webmasters/>

though I note that the ICRA vocabulary is itself limited (the film
"Bambi" would be rated as violent, for instance; there're no categories
for topless men, people in underwear, etc.; and there is no method for
encoding "degree" - a sentence such as "Lord Willoughby de Broke shot a
bird on his estate at Compton Verney" is rated in the same way as a
graphic visual depiction of a bullfight or an abattoir. Much of the
wording (e.g. "harmful acts") is still highly subjective.)

-- 
Andy Mabbett

                        Happy New Year!
From limbo at actcom.co.il  Mon Jan  1 11:05:24 2007
From: limbo at actcom.co.il (Eran)
Date: Mon Jan  1 11:05:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <WoAvTML9bVmFFwu$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <200701011905.l01J5W7w008108@microformats.org>


Andy said:
> Having re-read the original "content rating" discussion, it's clear that
> the initial proposal was for a uF for ratings of a current page, for
> which tagging was, not unreasonably, suggested.
> 
> The current proposal is for a method of "rating" (in a very loose sense)
> the page which is being linked to, and for which tagging is not
> appropriate.
> 

I haven't followed the entire thread but this seems like a good use case for
xfolk or even hReview.

The xfolk version could look like this:

<div class="xfolkentry">
  <a class="taggedlinked" href="http://goatse.cx">check this out!</a>
  (<a rel="tag" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSFW">NSFW</a>)
</div>

The hReview version would probably be similar, maybe just a wrapper around
the xfolkentry to show that this is just one person's opinion and should be
taken as such.

Eran.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan  1 11:31:49 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 11:34:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <200701011905.l01J5W7w008108@microformats.org>
References: <WoAvTML9bVmFFwu$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<200701011905.l01J5W7w008108@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <wtm2yhQlGWmFFw7z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <200701011905.l01J5W7w008108@microformats.org>, Eran
<limbo@actcom.co.il> writes

>> The current proposal is for a method of "rating" (in a very loose sense)
>> the page which is being linked to, and for which tagging is not
>> appropriate.
>>
>
>I haven't followed the entire thread but this seems like a good use
>case for xfolk or even hReview.
>
>The xfolk version could look like this:
>
><div class="xfolkentry">
>  <a class="taggedlinked" href="http://goatse.cx">check this out!</a>
>  (<a rel="tag" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSFW">NSFW</a>)</div

That would also tag the *linking* page as "NSFW".

(In fact, that seems to be an issue with xfolk in general...)

-- 
Andy Mabbett

                        Merry Bloomin' Christmas!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan  1 12:01:05 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 12:02:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] tagging in hCalendar & hCard
Message-ID: <8tv1iDSBiWmFFw6Z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

The 'wiki' page on xFolk:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/xFolk>

says:

        "If you need to define tags as part of a more specialised
        format, rel="tag" is the recommended way to do so, and xFolk,
        hReview, hCard and hCalendar all do this."

Yet there is no mention of this, that I can find, on any of the
hCalendar pages.

Is its application to hCalendar documented, somewhere? Indeed, is it
true, or is it just wishful thinking?



Similarly, the only reference to it on the hCard pages, seems to be:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Tags_as_Categories>

with no mention in the examples or on the cheat-sheet.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

                        Merry Bloomin' Christmas!
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Mon Jan  1 12:03:04 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Mon Jan  1 12:03:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <B7F947CA-2B2A-42A1-AC80-D9F08B689816@lava.net>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5451E998-60F4-48C3-95C5-74D11F445A0B@lava.net>
	<I8hoGEE43SmFFwdr@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C0EAAF63-183D-4433-93AB-84D3FB36F68A@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701010929u1cfe6dcfjd77cc79c9b9656dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<B7F947CA-2B2A-42A1-AC80-D9F08B689816@lava.net>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701011203q3d18eaefq1bea87b03c44d661@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:
> > Another @rel value that is more similar to the @rel="nsfw" would be
> > @rel="no-follow", which is trying to express an opinion about the
> > linked page rather than describing the link relationship.
>
> Not really -- it's saying that this link isn't a link that should be
> followed by an automated search engine. The relationship between
> document A and document B is "don't follow if you're a search engine".
>
> You can't really find an appropriate way to finish the sentence "The
> relationship between document A and document B is ________" with rel-
> nsfw. It's a pretty good litmus test for the correct usage of @rel.

But isn't it the case that rel-nsfw is exactly the same class of
relationship as rel-nofollow?

If your example is OK then surely "don't follow if you're at work" is
just as valid?

-Ciaran McNulty
From limbo at actcom.co.il  Mon Jan  1 12:03:03 2007
From: limbo at actcom.co.il (Eran)
Date: Mon Jan  1 12:03:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <wtm2yhQlGWmFFw7z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>

Andy said:
> >The xfolk version could look like this:
> >
> ><div class="xfolkentry">
> >  <a class="taggedlinked" href="http://goatse.cx">check this out!</a>
> >  (<a rel="tag" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSFW">NSFW</a>)</div
> 
> That would also tag the *linking* page as "NSFW".
> 
> (In fact, that seems to be an issue with xfolk in general...)
> 

Actually I'd say this is an issue with rel-tag in general, you'd have
similar problems with hreview and with any uF that employs rel-tag. The
scope of a tag was left (purposefully) undefined, quoting the abstract
section of rel-tag[1]:

Rel-Tag is one of several MicroFormats. By adding rel="tag" to a hyperlink,
a page indicates that the destination of that hyperlink is an
author-designated "tag" (or keyword/subject) for the current page. Note that
a tag may just refer to a major portion of the current page (i.e. a blog
post).

That last sentence pretty much leaves all interpretation of scope to the
application. In a blog the scope is usually a single post (even if several
posts appear on the same page), in hReview it is the product (or the rating
for the product) and in xFolk it's the page pointed to by the taggedentry
link.

Eran.

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/reltag#Abstract

From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Mon Jan  1 12:12:49 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Mon Jan  1 12:12:51 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>
References: <wtm2yhQlGWmFFw7z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701011212r22f26741k3ae39d4ec329d7db@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/07, Eran <limbo@actcom.co.il> wrote:
> That last sentence pretty much leaves all interpretation of scope to the
> application. In a blog the scope is usually a single post (even if several
> posts appear on the same page), in hReview it is the product (or the rating
> for the product) and in xFolk it's the page pointed to by the taggedentry
> link

Is that a problem though?

If a page contains an hAtom blog entry about Tom, an hReview of Dick
and an hListing about Harry then it's actually a perfectly valid
interpretation of the tags to say that that page is tagged with Tom,
Dick, Harry even though parsing the individual uFs would yield more
specific interpretations.

-Ciaran
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan  1 12:37:43 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan  1 12:39:04 2007
Subject: Scope of tags (Was: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw")
In-Reply-To: <200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>
References: <wtm2yhQlGWmFFw7z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <HMar62TXEXmFFwuK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>, Eran
<limbo@actcom.co.il> writes

>> >The xfolk version could look like this:
>> >
>> ><div class="xfolkentry">
>> >  <a class="taggedlinked" href="http://goatse.cx">check this out!</a>
>> >  (<a rel="tag" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSFW">NSFW</a>)</div
>>
>> That would also tag the *linking* page as "NSFW".
>>
>> (In fact, that seems to be an issue with xfolk in general...)
>>
>
>Actually I'd say this is an issue with rel-tag in general, you'd have
>similar problems with hreview and with any uF that employs rel-tag.

Indeed. It was suggested that "deceased" be used as a tag in hCards, in
lieu of a date-of-death field.

Suppose Sue publishes a family tree as a series of web pages, one for
each person.

On her own page, she has:


        http://example.com/sue.html
        Title: Sue Smith


        Jane                            Fred
           |_____________.______________|
                         |
                        Sue

with an hCard for each person. If they tag Fred as "deceased", then
they, too, are shown as deceased. Not good.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

                        Merry Bloomin' Christmas!
From john at westciv.com  Mon Jan  1 16:21:17 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Mon Jan  1 16:22:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<IZl4PVCmTWlFFwHm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<45956BDC.2060501@gunters.org>
	<4595DD56.25693.2E374E7@bjonkman.sobac.com>
	<B18C4877-6ABA-4DB2-BC2E-70D789CEAB9C@westciv.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC0CE022-8D19-47CF-9352-6785B258874D@westciv.com>

Ben,

> I'm not immediately convinced that it isn't it a relationship. NSFW
> would formalise the fact that document A:
> 1) contains a link to document B
> 2) document A's author considers document B "not safe for work" by
> their own standards

at best you could make the argument that rev="nsfw" is appropriate  
within the semantics of HTML (rev is the reverse of rel). That's how  
votelinks work - rev="vote-for", the rev attribute capturing the  
sense that

"this document or a substantial part of it has the relationship with  
the destination of this link as being a vote-for it" (yes that's  
tortured)

So by analogy you might argue

rev="nsfw" "means"

"this document or a substantial part of it has the relationship with  
the destination of this link as being an observation that its content  
is nsfw" (but I feel that is really pushing at least two aspects of  
rev, in particular the document (or substantial part of a document)  
level at which it works).

(One of the misleading aspects of both rel and rev is that while they  
are encoded on links, they apply to inter-document relationships))

But I certainly don't think even at a stretch you could make the  
logic of the rel attribute work sensibly in the case of rel-nsfw -  
the same objections as the rel="vote-for" I think apply, and then some.

Perhaps a (wildy off topic) suggestion to the WhatWG and or the W3s  
new HTML WG which emerges from the discussion of rel and rev is to  
consider providing attributes that enable link level assertions -  
that is a mechanism for typing links themselves, perhaps in a manner  
similar to rel and rev, so that this is extensible via profiles or  
convention. FWIW over a decade ago I implemented a hypertext based  
system that had user extensible typed links, and that feature was  
widely used by the (relatively small) user base. But that's really  
out of the scope of ufs eh?

happy new year to all

j

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher
Web Directions North, Vancouver Feb 6-10 :: http:// 
north.webdirections.org

From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com  Tue Jan  2 16:34:21 2007
From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy)
Date: Tue Jan  2 16:34:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
Message-ID: <8a52ddad0701021634wa34a25dld4e89286974c046f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Recently I found interesting task in Tantek's todo list [1]:
Conference Schedule Creator. Probably this is the hardest
microformatted structure so far (comparing with simplicity of
microformats in general) So, during this Christmas holidays I created
this creator and would ask you to judge it and, if it is good enough,
use it on your next conference schedule page.

Link: http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/work/csc/

So far I used float timezones, but will add support for fixed and UTC soon.


1. http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#help_implementers
-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com
From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com  Tue Jan  2 17:06:10 2007
From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy)
Date: Tue Jan  2 17:06:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
Message-ID: <8a52ddad0701021706y4a186689odc4f3ad3bf52503f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Recently I found interesting task in Tantek's todo list [1]:
Conference Schedule Creator. Probably this is the hardest
microformatted structure so far (comparing with simplicity of
microformats in general) So, during this Christmas holidays I created
this creator and would ask you to judge it and, if it is good enough,
use it on your next conference schedule page.

Link: http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/work/csc/

So far I used float timezones, but will add support for fixed and UTC soon.


1. http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#help_implementers
-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com
From mdagn at spraci.com  Wed Jan  3 13:12:27 2007
From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD)
Date: Tue Jan  2 18:12:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
References: <8a52ddad0701021706y4a186689odc4f3ad3bf52503f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001c72f7b$df2698c0$116bacca@COMCEN>

Is there a good way to say that an event is part of another event?

- like a way to distinguish an event that is part of a conference from an 
entry describing the whole conference which might be used on a listing of 
upcoming conferences..




From bjonkman at sobac.com  Tue Jan  2 20:06:02 2007
From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Tue Jan  2 20:37:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <AC0CE022-8D19-47CF-9352-6785B258874D@westciv.com>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>,
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AC0CE022-8D19-47CF-9352-6785B258874D@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <459AE55A.8920.27C3BC6@bjonkman.sobac.com>

Before this thread dies out completely, I'd like to forward a discussion the orginal author 
and I had:


------- Forwarded message follows -------

From:	PJ Doland <pjdoland@pjdoland.com>
Subject:	Re: [The Frosty Mug Revolution] New Comment Posted to 'A Semantic Solution for 
Presenting NSFW Content'
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:58:45 -0500
To:	bjonkman@sobac.com


Bob-

Thanks for the information on the list discussion.

I just read through the whole list thread. There's some very good  
feedback in there, but I would like to encourage your group to resist  
the urge to make the spec too full-featured. If people have to  
categorize HOW something might be considered NSFW (nudity, language,  
violence, nudity & language, etc.) it's going to make them less  
likely to use the standard in practice. As I've said earlier, I think  
PICS and ICRA failed because of their complexity.

I, personally, think this feature will mostly be used by community- 
driven sites where the attribute would be automatically added to a  
link by server-side code whenever a user reports a post or comment as  
NSFW with a single click. That is all the more reason to just keep it  
simple.

Adoption of this as a general standard could be VERY helpful for  
wider adoption of microformats as a whole, but the simplicity of it  
is going to be key.

--
PJ Doland
President
PJ Doland Web Design, Inc.
11591 Maple Ridge Rd.
Reston, VA 20190
P: 703.621.0991 F: 208.248.3241
E-mail: pjdoland@pjdoland.com
http://www.pjdoland.com



On Jan 1, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:

> Hi:  Thanx for the reply!
>
> There's been some discussion on your proposal on the Microformats  
> mailing list.  Consensus was
> pretty much the same as yours: PICS is too complicated; if it was  
> any good it would have
> achieved widespread adoption already.  There's a proposal to use  
> your rel="nsfw" as part of
> the hReview microformat.  This is very doable, and takes advantage  
> of existing parsers.
>
> The Microformat mailing list archives with the NSFW thread is at
> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- 
> December/007885.html
>
> --Bob.
>
>
>
> This is what PJ Doland <pjdoland@pjdoland.com> said
> about "Re: [The Frosty Mug Revolution] New Comment Poste" on 30 Dec  
> 2006 at 21:18
>
>> Bob-
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>
>> As I see it, there are several problem with PICS and ICRA:
>>
>> 1. The standards are too complicated for most bloggers to wrap-their
>> heads around. Any Jake can type ten keystrokes and take advantage of
>> my proposed standard.
>> 2. They also don't reference offsite destination anchors.
>> 3. They tend to label a whole page.
>
>
> This is what PJ Doland <pjdoland@pjdoland.com> said
> about "Re: [The Frosty Mug Revolution] New Comment Poste" on 30 Dec  
> 2006 at 20:00
>
>> Bob-
>>
>> The problem with PICS and ICRA is that:
>>
>> 1. They tend to focus on rating the content of the entire page. WIth
>> blogs and social network sites where content exists in smaller units
>> of differing theme and authorship, this seems inadequate.
>>
>> 2. The specifications are robust enough that they are complicated on
>> a level where people don't bother with them.
>>
>> Sticking a simple declaration on the element level is much easier and
>> simpler for content authors.
>>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2006, at 3:22 AM, bjonkman@sobac.com wrote:
>>
>>> A new comment has been posted on your blog The Frosty Mug
>>> Revolution, on entry #41577 (A Semantic Solution for Presenting
>>> NSFW Content).
>>>
>>> View this comment: <http://pj.doland.org/archives/041577.php>
>>> Edit this comment: <http://www.pjdoland.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt.cgi?
>>> __mode=view&id=1605214&_type=comment&blog_id=12>
>>>
>>> IP Address: 206.248.137.186
>>> Name: Bob Jonkman
>>> Email Address: bjonkman@sobac.com
>>> URL:
>>> Comments:
>>>
>>> I think you may be re-inventing the wheel:
>>>
>>> <a href="http://www.w3.org/PICS/">http://www.w3.org/PICS/</a>
>>>
>>>
>>> --Bob.


------- End of forwarded message -------

From karl at w3.org  Tue Jan  2 22:17:12 2007
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Tue Jan  2 22:17:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: Location Types Registry - RFC 4589
Message-ID: <C46073C6-67C9-45CB-B801-6EA23A6D2667@w3.org>

For information

http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4589.txt

Abstract

    This document creates a registry for describing the types of  
places a
    human or end system might be found.  The registry is then referenced
    by other protocols that need a common set of location terms as
    protocol constants.  Examples of location terms defined in this
    document include aircraft, office, and train station.



Note: Though as usual, this kind of things are very biased towards  
western barbarians.



-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***



From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 02:13:14 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan  3 02:13:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] I have filled in the hCalendar profile page;
	please check for accuracy
In-Reply-To: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601477200@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
References: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601477200@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
Message-ID: <21e770780701030213g380763d7q4cc6af758478eeab@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/07, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I have filled in the hCalendar profile page:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-profile
>
> Hopefully I have done it correctly.  Please check it for accuracy.

--- that is a good start, have a look at the hCard profile[1] it
references the RFC so that any semantics and text are not lost during
the conversion.

-brian

[1] - http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 02:25:59 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan  3 02:26:02 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] tagging in hCalendar & hCard
In-Reply-To: <8tv1iDSBiWmFFw6Z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <8tv1iDSBiWmFFw6Z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <21e770780701030225s72d31d19h2a4fb07ebd2847df@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> The 'wiki' page on xFolk:
>
>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/xFolk>
>
> says:
>
>         "If you need to define tags as part of a more specialised
>         format, rel="tag" is the recommended way to do so, and xFolk,
>         hReview, hCard and hCalendar all do this."
>
> Yet there is no mention of this, that I can find, on any of the
> hCalendar pages.
>
> Is its application to hCalendar documented, somewhere? Indeed, is it
> true, or is it just wishful thinking?

--- the hCard wiki pages are more complete than the hCalendar ones.
Most of the hCalendar documentation has not been completed yet, so you
should not assume it is finished yet. The categories in hCalendar work
in a very similar fashion to the hCard, using rel="tag" along with
class="categories".

The presents of a rel="tag" attribute and value help parsers to
determine WHERE to extract the data from. (if this is a topic of
interest/confusion please email the dev-list)

> Similarly, the only reference to it on the hCard pages, seems to be:
>
>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Tags_as_Categories>
>
> with no mention in the examples or on the cheat-sheet.

Which cheat-sheet are you talking about? the wiki, the PDF at
ilovejackdaniels.com or the one at suda.co.uk? We now have several to
choose from and keep uptodate and in sync.

If you are referring to the one at suda.co.uk, then which microformat
are you referring too? the hCalendar example DOES have a
class="category" and a rel="tag", but the hCald only has
class="category". According to the wiki, the rel="tag" portion "can
optionally be represented by tags with rel-tag", so the cheat sheet is
not incorrect, but at the moment only represents ONE way of encoding
categories.

I am open to suggestions on how to possibly represent the whole rel
attribute as optional, but again, the cheat sheet is not an "end-all
be-all" for representing microformats. It is a cheat sheet not a spec.

-brian



-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 02:31:26 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan  3 02:31:29 2007
Subject: Scope of tags (Was: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw")
In-Reply-To: <HMar62TXEXmFFwuK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <wtm2yhQlGWmFFw7z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>
	<HMar62TXEXmFFwuK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <21e770780701030231y26b16655if066d2bc156d9149@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>, Eran
> <limbo@actcom.co.il> writes
>
> Suppose Sue publishes a family tree as a series of web pages, one for
> each person.
>
> On her own page, she has:

>         http://example.com/sue.html
>         Title: Sue Smith
>
>         Jane                            Fred
>            |_____________.______________|
>                          |
>                         Sue
>
> with an hCard for each person. If they tag Fred as "deceased", then
> they, too, are shown as deceased. Not good.

--- i?m not sure how you came to that conclusion? certainly
aggregators would mark that the page is "about" the term "deceased"
but it wouldn?t make an assumption about individual hCards? and
depending on the mark-up if Sue is NOT nested inside Fred?s hCard,
then there is a distinction between where/what/who the rel-tag is
relating.

We are dabbling in theoretical territory, do you have a page that has
been marked-up somewhere and that page is being misinterpreted by
aggregators and parsers? if so please let us know so we can help
diagnose the problem.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 02:52:34 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan  3 02:52:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
In-Reply-To: <8a52ddad0701021634wa34a25dld4e89286974c046f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a52ddad0701021634wa34a25dld4e89286974c046f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701030252na2fe807j91c779eab09d420@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/3/07, Dmitry Baranovskiy <dmitry.baranovskiy@gmail.com> wrote:

> Link: http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/work/csc/

--- very cool! i?ll play around with this and see if i can break it,
at first pass everything works great!

two quick suggestions:
1) put all 24 hours in the time drop-down, right now it only goes from
5-23, (which for a conferences is pretty good range), but scheduling
things like concerts might start at 22:00 and run into the wee hours
of the morning.

2) spelling/grammar mistake. When you export the hCal->ICS link says
"(Don't forget to fix an URL)" probably should be fix THE url?

Otherwise this is a great little tool. I did notice that you can?t
create an event that blocks 1 hour (say 6-7) then create an event that
runs from 6:30 to 7:30. I know this your first go at the scheduler,
and that sort of thing might be outside of the 80/20 usage, but
something to keep in mind. As i use this scheduler, i?ll let you know
any issues i find.

You should create a page on the wiki about this app, so when people
find issues and or feature requests that can be documented and
referenced.

Thanks,
-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk

From costello at mitre.org  Wed Jan  3 04:07:15 2007
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Wed Jan  3 04:07:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] The Wisdom of Microformats
Message-ID: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601477464@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>

Hi Folks,

In his book, The Wisdom of Crowds, James Suroweicki says that to
effectively harness the collective intelligence of a crowd - such as
the Web - there needs to be the right balance between:

      - making individual knowledge globally and collectively useful
      - allowing individual knowledge to remain resolutely specific
        and local

It occurs to me that the microformats approach has found the right
balance:

      - microformats provide the hooks that enable individual knowledge

        to be collected, aggregated, and processed
      - simultaneously, at the local level web page developers are
        empowered to express their individual knowledge in a fashion 
        that is best suited to their specific problem


Outstanding!

/Roger

From s-leary at tamu.edu  Wed Jan  3 08:04:09 2007
From: s-leary at tamu.edu (Stephanie Leary)
Date: Wed Jan  3 08:04:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701030252na2fe807j91c779eab09d420@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1C13019.2343%s-leary@tamu.edu>

On 1/3/07 4:52 AM, "Brian Suda" <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
> Otherwise this is a great little tool. I did notice that you can?t
> create an event that blocks 1 hour (say 6-7) then create an event that
> runs from 6:30 to 7:30.

Possibly related: I created a couple of all-day events (9:00-17:00) and then
couldn't add a one-hour event (9:00-10:00).


-- 
Stephanie Leary
Web Communications Specialist
The Texas A&M University System
tamus.edu
 


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 10:52:20 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 10:53:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Michael MD's wrong time (was: Conference Schedule
	Creator)
In-Reply-To: <002001c72f7b$df2698c0$116bacca@COMCEN>
References: <8a52ddad0701021706y4a186689odc4f3ad3bf52503f@mail.gmail.com>
	<002001c72f7b$df2698c0$116bacca@COMCEN>
Message-ID: <4bmU$tukt$mFFwJp@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <002001c72f7b$df2698c0$116bacca@COMCEN>, Michael MD
<mdagn@spraci.com> writes

>Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:12:27 -0800

I think you need to fix that!

-- 
Andy Mabbett

                        Merry Bloomin' Christmas!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 13:59:16 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:00:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] tagging in hCalendar & hCard
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701030225s72d31d19h2a4fb07ebd2847df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8tv1iDSBiWmFFw6Z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<21e770780701030225s72d31d19h2a4fb07ebd2847df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <LhT4hky0cCnFFw1i@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e770780701030225s72d31d19h2a4fb07ebd2847df@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> writes

>On 1/1/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> The 'wiki' page on xFolk:
>>
>>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/xFolk>
>>
>> says:
>>
>>         "If you need to define tags as part of a more specialised
>>         format, rel="tag" is the recommended way to do so, and xFolk,
>>         hReview, hCard and hCalendar all do this."
>>
>> Yet there is no mention of this, that I can find, on any of the
>> hCalendar pages.
>>
>> Is its application to hCalendar documented, somewhere? Indeed, is it
>> true, or is it just wishful thinking?
>
>--- the hCard wiki pages are more complete than the hCalendar ones.
>Most of the hCalendar documentation has not been completed yet, so you
>should not assume it is finished yet.

And yet hCalendar is listed as a full spec on the main page, not a
draft?

> The categories in hCalendar work
>in a very similar fashion to the hCard, using rel="tag" along with
>class="categories".

Thank you. Are they free form, or is their a set list to choose from?

>The presents of a rel="tag" attribute and value help parsers to
>determine WHERE to extract the data from. (if this is a topic of
>interest/confusion please email the dev-list)

It is, but I'm not a parser developer - so am I allowed to do so?

>> Similarly, the only reference to it on the hCard pages, seems to be:
>>
>>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Tags_as_Categories>
>>
>> with no mention in the examples or on the cheat-sheet.
>
>Which cheat-sheet are you talking about? the wiki, the PDF at
>ilovejackdaniels.com or the one at suda.co.uk? We now have several to
>choose from and keep uptodate and in sync.

I was referring to the cheat-sheet on the 'wiki' which I thought was in
sync with your PDF - I see now that that is not the case.

>If you are referring to the one at suda.co.uk, then which microformat
>are you referring too? the hCalendar example DOES have a
>class="category" and a rel="tag", but the hCald only has
>class="category". According to the wiki, the rel="tag" portion "can
>optionally be represented by tags with rel-tag", so the cheat sheet is
>not incorrect, but at the moment only represents ONE way of encoding
>categories.

What other ways are there?

>I am open to suggestions on how to possibly represent the whole rel
>attribute as optional,

Do the current indicators not allow for that? Otherwise, would a
footnote suffice?

>but again, the cheat sheet is not an "end-all
>be-all" for representing microformats. It is a cheat sheet not a spec.

Indeed. Where is the definitive, canonical and unambiguous hCalendar
spec?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 14:08:02 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:09:29 2007
Subject: Scope of tags (Was: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw")
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701030231y26b16655if066d2bc156d9149@mail.gmail.com>
References: <wtm2yhQlGWmFFw7z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>
	<HMar62TXEXmFFwuK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<21e770780701030231y26b16655if066d2bc156d9149@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iBOy5nzClCnFFwSG@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e770780701030231y26b16655if066d2bc156d9149@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> writes

>> Suppose Sue publishes a family tree as a series of web pages, one for
>> each person.
>>
>> On her own page, she has:
>
>>         http://example.com/sue.html
>>         Title: Sue Smith
>>
>>         Jane                            Fred

>>            |_____________.______________|
>>                          |
>>                         Sue
>>
>> with an hCard for each person. If they tag Fred as "deceased", then
>> they, too, are shown as deceased. Not good.
>
>--- i?m not sure how you came to that conclusion?

On:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Abstract>

        By adding rel="tag" to a hyperlink, a page indicates that the
        destination of that hyperlink is an author-designated "tag" (or
        keyword/subject) for the current page. Note that a tag may just
        refer to a major portion of the current page

> certainly
>aggregators would mark that the page is "about" the term "deceased"
>but it wouldn?t make an assumption about individual hCards? and
>depending on the mark-up if Sue is NOT nested inside Fred?s hCard,
>then there is a distinction between where/what/who the rel-tag is
>relating.

There is? Where, on the rel-tag spec, is that made clear?

>We are dabbling in theoretical territory,

Unlike some, I have no allergy to "theoretical territory". Indeed, it's
a pre-requisite to science.

>do you have a page that has
>been marked-up somewhere and that page is being misinterpreted by
>aggregators and parsers? if so please let us know so we can help
>diagnose the problem.

I am not planning on using rel-tag (especially not in hCard and
hCalendar) until this and some of the other issues with it have been
resolved. I suspect I'm not alone in that.

I also can't lay an egg, but I can tell when one has gone off ;-)


-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 14:25:55 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:27:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
Message-ID: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


The FAQ <http://microformats.org/wiki/faq> is getting long. I propose
splitting it into two or more parts.

Would that be OK with everyone? How should it be done?

It might break some links :-(

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 14:31:45 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:31:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>

I don't see any reason for splitting this.  What is the problem and
why does it need to be split?  How would splitting solve that problem?
 It looks great to me as-is.

Ben

On 1/3/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> The FAQ <http://microformats.org/wiki/faq> is getting long. I propose
> splitting it into two or more parts.
>
> Would that be OK with everyone? How should it be done?
>
> It might break some links :-(
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>             *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
>             *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
>             *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 14:41:47 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:43:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More censorship on the  'wiki'
Message-ID: <xR02dt0rEDnFFwg5@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Folks might like to know that dissenting opinion is still being censored
from the 'wiki':

  <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&curid=1025&action=history>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 14:49:35 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:49:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More censorship on the 'wiki'
In-Reply-To: <xR02dt0rEDnFFwg5@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <xR02dt0rEDnFFwg5@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701031449y3bdb963dm4148bcc9bf4e0da3@mail.gmail.com>

Off topic rants don't belong on the wiki.  It's not helpful.
Furthermore, questions without answers don't belong on -faq pages.  An
unresolved question is called an issue, and belongs on the -issues
pages.

Ben

On 1/3/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Folks might like to know that dissenting opinion is still being censored
> from the 'wiki':
>
>   <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&curid=1025&action=history>
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>             *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
>             *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
>             *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 14:53:01 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:54:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>
References: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin
West <bewest@gmail.com> writes

>I don't see any reason for splitting this.  What is the problem and
>why does it need to be split?  How would splitting solve that problem?
>It looks great to me as-is.

1) please don't top post, per
<http://microformats.org/mailinglists-policies/>

2) The answer to your first two, tautological, questions (and by
implication your last) is contained in my post, Please (re)read it.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 14:59:52 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:59:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>
	<Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>

On 03/01/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> 2) The answer to your first two, tautological, questions (and by
> implication your last) is contained in my post, Please (re)read it.

I read your email.  I don't see your concerns outlined.

I have no problems with how the FAQ currently is.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:02:45 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:04:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More censorship on the 'wiki'
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701031449y3bdb963dm4148bcc9bf4e0da3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <xR02dt0rEDnFFwg5@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30701031449y3bdb963dm4148bcc9bf4e0da3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fxb9lm3VYDnFFwmz@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<8ad71be30701031449y3bdb963dm4148bcc9bf4e0da3@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin
West <bewest@gmail.com> writes


Please don't top post, per
<http://microformats.org/mailinglists-policies/>

>Off topic rants don't belong on the wiki.  It's not helpful.

I agree, but since my comments were neither off-topic nor ranting,
that's a straw man which we can dispense with.

>Furthermore, questions without answers don't belong on -faq pages.

That's an interesting, but far from irrefutable, opinion. Since I was
requesting answers to them, it's also bordering on being another straw
man.

>  An
>unresolved question is called an issue, and belongs on the -issues

I'm quite confident that both of the *questions* I asked are resolved; I
simply don't know the answers to them.

The censored comment was pointing out that they could have been
answered, in less time than it took to move them (not to mention moving
them, describing them in a derogatory fashion and bleating about having
to do so, in IRC).

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 15:07:35 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:07:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C1C176DB.843D3%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 2:53 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message
> <8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin
> West <bewest@gmail.com> writes
> 
>> I don't see any reason for splitting this.  What is the problem and
>> why does it need to be split?  How would splitting solve that problem?
>> It looks great to me as-is.
> 
> 1) please don't top post, per
> <http://microformats.org/mailinglists-policies/>
> 
> 2) The answer to your first two, tautological, questions (and by
> implication your last) is contained in my post, Please (re)read it.

Andy,

Wasting list time with organization/bureaucratic issues is both not-ok and
undesirable.  Please refrain from sending organizational/bureaucratic/meta
questions to the mailing list, and from performing wiki-(re)-organization as
at this point it is wasting enough time of other people to clean-up your
unilateral edits as to be tax on the community.

Put another way, please refocus your efforts on actual substantiative
microformats contributions and not meta-discussions/efforts.

Thanks,

Tantek

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:08:27 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:08:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 'wiki' management, uF style
Message-ID: <lS0DdZ4rdDnFFwCt@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Do as I say:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12098>

        do not undo editor edits, especially twice or more times, as
        that is grounds for being banned


not as I do:

1.   <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12098&oldid=12097>

2.   <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12056&oldid=12055#Informative_References>

3.   <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12054&oldid=12052#Informative_References>

Will Tantek now be banning himself?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From strategicpause at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 15:10:56 2007
From: strategicpause at gmail.com (Nick Peters)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:10:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
Message-ID: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>

Seeing the tag implementation on Operator has made me question the
existing tagging standard.  With wordpress you may get something like
"?cat=13" for a tag or something that may not even be the intended tag
at all.  After doing some research on the wiki I see that the
rel="tag" microformat is based off of existing defacto standards
(implemented by sites such as del.icio.us and flickr).  I still don't
see why the standard extracts the tag from the last part of the URL
instead of the information inside the anchor tag.  When I see a tag
and click on it, I expect the visible content, not what's appended to
the end of a URL.  Anyone care to shed some light on this for me?
-Nick
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 15:11:35 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:11:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More censorship on the 'wiki'
In-Reply-To: <fxb9lm3VYDnFFwmz@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C1C177E8.843D7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 3:02 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message
> <8ad71be30701031449y3bdb963dm4148bcc9bf4e0da3@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin
> West <bewest@gmail.com> writes
> 
>> Off topic rants don't belong on the wiki.  It's not helpful.
> 
> I agree, but since my comments were neither off-topic nor ranting,
> that's a straw man which we can dispense with.

I agree with Ben that your comments were both off-topic and ranting.   Your
response to Ben is simple contradiction of his statement, and does not
provide any new relevant information and is therefore a waste of time.  If
you wish to argue something, present new information, not just
contradiction.


>> Furthermore, questions without answers don't belong on -faq pages.
> 
> That's an interesting, but far from irrefutable, opinion.

It is not just an opinion, it is existing practice in the community.


> Since I was
> requesting answers to them, it's also bordering on being another straw
> man.

Open questions are open issues until they are answered, then depending on
whether they are worthy enough to be considered "frequent", their answers
may be moved to an FAQ.


>>  An
>> unresolved question is called an issue, and belongs on the -issues
> 
> I'm quite confident that both of the *questions* I asked are resolved; I
> simply don't know the answers to them.

If you don't know the answers to them, then from your perspective they are
issues.  Leave the moving to the FAQ to the editors of the respective spec.


> The censored comment

Please stop making false claims.  Nothing is censored in a wiki where edit
histories are public.

Thanks,

Tantek

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:10:26 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:12:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>
	<Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <uCGB594ifDnFFwD1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>,
Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes

>On 03/01/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> 2) The answer to your first two, tautological, questions (and by
>> implication your last) is contained in my post, Please (re)read it.
>
>I read your email.  I don't see your concerns outlined.

Then I suggest that you did not read it well.

Try reading the first sentence again.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 15:14:32 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:14:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 'wiki' management, uF style
In-Reply-To: <lS0DdZ4rdDnFFwCt@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C1C178C1.843DB%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 3:08 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> 
> Do as I say:
> 
>       <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12098>
> 
>       do not undo editor edits, especially twice or more times, as

Andy, RTFC:         ^^^^^^

>       that is grounds for being banned
> 
> 
> not as I do:
> 
> 1.   <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12098&oldid=12097>
> 
> 2.   
> <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12056&oldid=12055#Informative_R
> eferences>
> 
> 3.   
> <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12054&oldid=12052#Informative_R
> eferences>
> 
> Will Tantek now be banning himself?

No, because Tantek is an editor of the spec (hCard) as noted, Andy is not.

This is your second meta-discussion email you have sent after being
requested to stop doing so.

I recommend you voluntarily refrain from emailing microformats lists for 24
hours at this point.  One more meta-discussion email from you after you have
been asked to stop will be grounds for banning from the lists.

Thanks,

Tantek

From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 15:17:11 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:17:14 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701031517l2f8992fcj2a7f15eec8d61b9@mail.gmail.com>

On 03/01/07, Nick Peters <strategicpause@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seeing the tag implementation on Operator has made me question the
> existing tagging standard.  With wordpress you may get something like
> "?cat=13" for a tag or something that may not even be the intended tag
> at all.  After doing some research on the wiki I see that the
> rel="tag" microformat is based off of existing defacto standards
> (implemented by sites such as del.icio.us and flickr).  I still don't
> see why the standard extracts the tag from the last part of the URL
> instead of the information inside the anchor tag.  When I see a tag
> and click on it, I expect the visible content, not what's appended to
> the end of a URL.  Anyone care to shed some light on this for me?
> -Nick

I might be misunderstanding you, but I think you might be confusing
categorisation with tagging (the latter being a method of adding
additional context)?


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 15:18:18 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:18:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <uCGB594ifDnFFwD1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>
	<Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>
	<uCGB594ifDnFFwD1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701031518q6e041dear81fcc9beebbe14d2@mail.gmail.com>

On 03/01/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>,
> Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes
>
> >On 03/01/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> 2) The answer to your first two, tautological, questions (and by
> >> implication your last) is contained in my post, Please (re)read it.
> >
> >I read your email.  I don't see your concerns outlined.
>
> Then I suggest that you did not read it well.
>
> Try reading the first sentence again.
>

"getting too long"?

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:20:29 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:22:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] previously non-referenced in the spec "References"
Message-ID: <KyBIFw59oDnFFwkX@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Some time ago, I added two informative references:

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.123>

        <http://www.imc.org/pdi/>

to the hCard main page:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Informative_References>

Tantek has made clear recently, after I added a third:

        <http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Geocoding#Sources_for_lat.2Flongs>

that doing so is reason for being "banned":

        <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12098>

        do not add previously non-referenced in the spec "References"
        [...] as that is grounds for being banned

so I have now removed them:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12099>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 15:27:20 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:27:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] previously non-referenced in the spec
	"References"
In-Reply-To: <KyBIFw59oDnFFwkX@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C1C17BC1.843E7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 3:20 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> 
> Some time ago, I added two informative references:
> 
>       <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.123>
> 
>       <http://www.imc.org/pdi/>
> 
> to the hCard main page:
> 
>       <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Informative_References>
> 
> Tantek has made clear recently, after I added a third:
> 
>       <http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Geocoding#Sources_for_lat.2Flongs>
> 
> that doing so is reason for being "banned":
> 
>       <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12098>
> 
>       do not add previously non-referenced in the spec "References"
>       [...] as that is grounds for being banned

No you misread the comment.  Your passive-aggressive re-editing of the wiki
and undoing editor edits repeatedly (twice or more) is grounds fore being
banned.  You have already been banned once (for 24 hours) for such behavior
before.  I recommend you also voluntarily refrain from microformats wiki
edits for 24 hours at this point.

Thanks,

Tantek



From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:35:10 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:36:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] previously non-referenced in the spec "References"
In-Reply-To: <KyBIFw59oDnFFwkX@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <KyBIFw59oDnFFwkX@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <7CVEJN7u2DnFFwhb@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <KyBIFw59oDnFFwkX@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes

> two informative references:
[...]
>so I have now removed them:

Apologies; the correct edit was:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12103&oldid=121022>

Though, bizarrely, Tantek has reverted that.

So, it seems that it *is* OK for me to add 'previously non-referenced in
the spec "References"', *except* when Tantek orders me not to add
'previously non-referenced in the spec "References"'.

I confess, I'm confused.

Can anyone tell me how I'm supposed to keno when I can, and when I
cannot add such informative references? Or are the rules just created
and ignored according to whim?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:38:50 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:40:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 'wiki' management, uF style
In-Reply-To: <C1C178C1.843DB%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <lS0DdZ4rdDnFFwCt@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C1C178C1.843DB%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <$CcFZv7K6DnFFwhB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1C178C1.843DB%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes


>>
>>       do not undo editor edits, especially twice or more times, as
>
>Andy, RTFC:         ^^^^^^

I have no idea what "RTFC", though if the first three letters mean the
same as in RTFM, kindly moderate your language,


>
>>       that is grounds for being banned
>>
>>
>> not as I do:
>>
>> 1.   <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12098&oldid=12097>
>>
>> 2.
>> <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12056&oldid=12055#Info
>>rmative_R
>> eferences>
>>
>> 3.
>> <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12054&oldid=12052#Info
>>rmative_R
>> eferences>
>>
>> Will Tantek now be banning himself?
>
>No, because Tantek is an editor of the spec (hCard) as noted, Andy is not.

Editor: one ho edits (and, ona Wiki, one who uses the "edit" button. Or
are we not speaking the same language?

>This is your second meta-discussion email you have sent after being
>requested to stop doing so.

I have received no such request.

>I recommend you voluntarily refrain from emailing microformats lists for 24
>hours at this point.  One more meta-discussion email from you after you have
>been asked to stop will be grounds for banning from the lists.

"Voluntary refraining" under threat of a ban is not voluntary - or are
we not speaking the same language?

I repeat, I have received no such request.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:41:00 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:42:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AjtaBL8M8DnFFwlK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>, Nick
Peters <strategicpause@gmail.com> writes

>When I see a tag
>and click on it, I expect the visible content, not what's appended to
>the end of a URL.  Anyone care to shed some light on this for me?

Yes, it's a potential minefield:

        <a rel="tag" http://exmaple.com/kid-safe>porn</a>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:45:39 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:47:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More censorship on the 'wiki'
In-Reply-To: <C1C177E8.843D7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <fxb9lm3VYDnFFwmz@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C1C177E8.843D7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <wUmm858jAEnFFwQ6@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1C177E8.843D7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>On 1/3/07 3:02 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message
>> <8ad71be30701031449y3bdb963dm4148bcc9bf4e0da3@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin
>> West <bewest@gmail.com> writes
>>
>>> Off topic rants don't belong on the wiki.  It's not helpful.
>>
>> I agree, but since my comments were neither off-topic nor ranting,
>> that's a straw man which we can dispense with.
>
>I agree with Ben that your comments were both off-topic and ranting.   Your
>response to Ben is simple contradiction of his statement, and does not
>provide any new relevant information and is therefore a waste of time.  If
>you wish to argue something, present new information, not just
>contradiction.

I did.

>>> Furthermore, questions without answers don't belong on -faq pages.
>>
>> That's an interesting, but far from irrefutable, opinion.
>
>It is not just an opinion, it is existing practice in the community.

Tosh. You have only just revered my edit of 19 November:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-faq&diff=10378&oldid=10377>

and no-one in the community has raised any issue with that in the
intervening period.

>> Since I was
>> requesting answers to them, it's also bordering on being another straw
>> man.
>
>Open questions are open issues until they are answered

I have already addressed this in the post to which you respond.

[...]

>>>  An
>>> unresolved question is called an issue, and belongs on the -issues
>>
>> I'm quite confident that both of the *questions* I asked are resolved; I
>> simply don't know the answers to them.
>
>If you don't know the answers to them, then from your perspective they are
>issues.

Don't attempt to speak for me.

>  Leave the moving to the FAQ to the editors of the respective spec.

What else do you thing I was doing by asking here? (Though I would have
thought you would have wanted to say "the community".

>> The censored comment
>
>Please stop making false claims.  Nothing is censored in a wiki where edit
>histories are public.

Balderdash.

>Thanks,

For what?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?

From drernie at opendarwin.org  Wed Jan  3 15:48:16 2007
From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:48:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 'wiki' management, uF style
In-Reply-To: <$CcFZv7K6DnFFwhB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <lS0DdZ4rdDnFFwCt@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C1C178C1.843DB%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<$CcFZv7K6DnFFwhB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <0E0C81DA-1D9F-4E82-BA8F-DAC9AFE9A679@opendarwin.org>

Hi Andy,

On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:38 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> I recommend you voluntarily refrain from emailing microformats  
>> lists for 24
>> hours at this point.  One more meta-discussion email from you  
>> after you have
>> been asked to stop will be grounds for banning from the lists.
>
> "Voluntary refraining" under threat of a ban is not voluntary - or are
> we not speaking the same language?

For what it is worth, *I* think his meaning is pretty clear.

a) You are treading on thin ice

b) One more inappropriate post and you *will* be banned

c) Given that you seem to have a poor sense of what Tantek (and  
others) consider off-topic, it would be wise for you to take at least  
24 hours off to let things cool down.

I do value some of the contributions you have made, but I agree with  
Tantek that it would be healthier for the community if you took a break.

If you are sincerely confused about why you've gotten the reaction  
you have, feel free to email me offlist.

Cheers,
-- Ernie P.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:47:56 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:49:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] previously non-referenced in the spec	"References"
In-Reply-To: <C1C17BC1.843E7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <KyBIFw59oDnFFwkX@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C1C17BC1.843E7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <vkVhAN9sCEnFFwRW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1C17BC1.843E7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>Your passive-aggressive re-editing of the wiki and undoing editor edits
>repeatedly (twice or more) is grounds fore being banned.

You appear not to know what "passive aggressive" behaviour is.

>  You have already been banned once (for 24 hours) for such behavior
>before.

No, I have been blocked from editing *by you* for trying to defend my
comments on my user-page from your unwarranted and unwelcome
interference.

>I recommend you also voluntarily refrain from microformats wiki edits
>for 24 hours at this point.

I note your recommendation and reject it.

Or is it a veiled threat?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 15:51:09 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:50:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 'wiki' management, uF style
In-Reply-To: <$CcFZv7K6DnFFwhB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C1C18139.843F4%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 3:38 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <C1C178C1.843DB%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
> <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes
> 
> 
>>> Will Tantek now be banning himself?
>> 
>> No, because Tantek is an editor of the spec (hCard) as noted, Andy is not.
> 
> Editor: one ho edits (and, ona Wiki, one who uses the "edit" button. Or
> are we not speaking the same language?

See hCard specification[1], the "Editor", right there at the top.

>> This is your second meta-discussion email you have sent after being
>> requested to stop doing so.
> 
> I have received no such request.

You have, in email, publicly, on this list received a request.

<http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-January/0079
83.html>


>> I recommend you voluntarily refrain from emailing microformats lists for 24
>> hours at this point.  One more meta-discussion email from you after you have
>> been asked to stop will be grounds for banning from the lists.
> 
> "Voluntary refraining" under threat of a ban is not voluntary - or are
> we not speaking the same language?

I asked you to voluntarily refrain from *any* emailing the microformats
lists for 24 hours.

The threat of a ban is for continuing to send *meta-discussion* emails, as
you have.  That is, I suggested you take a break in general, though if you
wanted to you could proceed by limiting yourself to on-topic, substantiative
emails that actually are about improving microformats.

Tantek


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:50:45 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:52:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <C1C176DB.843D3%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C1C176DB.843D3%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <g0riku9VFEnFFwww@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1C176DB.843D3%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>>> I don't see any reason for splitting this.  What is the problem and
>>> why does it need to be split?  How would splitting solve that problem?
>>> It looks great to me as-is.
>>
>> 1) please don't top post, per
>> <http://microformats.org/mailinglists-policies/>
>>
>> 2) The answer to your first two, tautological, questions (and by
>> implication your last) is contained in my post, Please (re)read it.

>Wasting list time with organization/bureaucratic issues is both not-ok
>and undesirable.

Since I'm not doing that, it's another straw-man.

>Please refrain from sending organizational/bureaucratic/meta questions
>to the mailing list, and from performing wiki-(re)-organization

Is this a request, or an instruction?

>as at this point it is wasting enough time of other people to clean-up
>your unilateral edits as to be tax on the community.

My "unilateral edits"? How are my edits different from any other
editor's? Not to mention that the very post to which you reply is about
me asking the community how it wants pages to be edited!

>Put another way, please refocus your efforts on actual substantiative
>microformats contributions and not meta-discussions/efforts.

Again, a request or an instruction?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 15:51:00 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 15:52:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701031518q6e041dear81fcc9beebbe14d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>
	<Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>
	<uCGB594ifDnFFwD1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e86992a40701031518q6e041dear81fcc9beebbe14d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Zk3sgJ+kFEnFFw2b@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<e86992a40701031518q6e041dear81fcc9beebbe14d2@mail.gmail.com>, Frances
Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes

>> >I read your email.  I don't see your concerns outlined.
>>
>> Then I suggest that you did not read it well.
>>
>> Try reading the first sentence again.
>>
>
>"getting too long"?

Yes.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 16:01:09 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:00:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] previously non-referenced in the spec
	"References"
In-Reply-To: <7CVEJN7u2DnFFwhb@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C1C18355.843FC%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 3:35 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <KyBIFw59oDnFFwkX@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett
> <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes
> 
>> two informative references:
> [...]
>> so I have now removed them:
> 
> Apologies; the correct edit was:
> 
> <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=12103&oldid=121022>
> 
> Though, bizarrely, Tantek has reverted that.
          ^^^^^^^^^
Please refrain from making ad-hominem attacks on the mailing list.


> So, it seems that it *is* OK for me to add 'previously non-referenced in
> the spec "References"',

The E.123 reference was informative reference that provided a nice
informative summary of a normative reference was only available by paid
document, thus was not previously non-referenced.  In addition, to make it
even more clear I added a section that noted that authors MAY wish to use
E.123 formatting for their telephone numbers.


> *except* when Tantek orders me not to add
> 'previously non-referenced in the spec "References"'.

No, the coordinates references was both previously non-referenced, and not
particularly relevant.  I made an editor judgment call to remove a seemingly
not-very-related link and removed it.  That is sufficient reason.


Finally, note that this is yet another meta-discussion email that you have
sent, and thus as promised, absent any objections from anyone else on the
list (or IRC), you will shortly be banned from the mailing-list for a week.

I am sorry to do this, but your continued inability to listen to the
requests that have been made, and your continued flood of meta-discussion
emails on the list have left me no other choice in order to maintain the
quality of discussion on this list.


Thanks,

Tantek

From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 16:02:34 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:02:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Splitting the FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <Zk3sgJ+kFEnFFw2b@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <NQyp9Y0z1CnFFwXd@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30701031431p2f36b9ecsaa56974362a15459@mail.gmail.com>
	<Bx96FD3NPDnFFwEE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e86992a40701031459s9360d06mb9fd6c355653ce49@mail.gmail.com>
	<uCGB594ifDnFFwD1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e86992a40701031518q6e041dear81fcc9beebbe14d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<Zk3sgJ+kFEnFFw2b@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701031602t1e039813n5400d1d7a3bf582c@mail.gmail.com>

I don't recommend splitting it.  I'm not sure what "too long" means.
My guess is that if you do make such a change, it'll be reverted.

Ben

On 1/3/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <e86992a40701031518q6e041dear81fcc9beebbe14d2@mail.gmail.com>, Frances
> Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes
>
> >> >I read your email.  I don't see your concerns outlined.
> >>
> >> Then I suggest that you did not read it well.
> >>
> >> Try reading the first sentence again.
> >>
> >
> >"getting too long"?
>
> Yes.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>             *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
>             *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
>             *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 16:04:38 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:05:53 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 'wiki' management, uF style
In-Reply-To: <C1C18139.843F4%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <$CcFZv7K6DnFFwhB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C1C18139.843F4%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <oLrQrSAWSEnFFwSq@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1C18139.843F4%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>On 1/3/07 3:38 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <C1C178C1.843DB%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
>> <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>>>Tantek is an editor of the spec (hCard) as noted, Andy is not.
>>
>> Editor: one ho edits (and, ona Wiki, one who uses the "edit" button. Or
>> are we not speaking the same language?
>
>See hCard specification[1], the "Editor", right there at the top.

If you wish a word to have meaning other than that usually used, its
wise to say so when you use it.

>>> This is your second meta-discussion email you have sent after being
>>> requested to stop doing so.
>>
>> I have received no such request.
>
>You have, in email, publicly, on this list received a request.
>
><http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-January/0079
>83.html>

I repeat: at the time I wrote the above, I had *received* no such
request.

(I have since received, and replied to, it.)

>>> I recommend you voluntarily refrain from emailing microformats lists for 24
>>> hours at this point.  One more meta-discussion email from you after you have
>>> been asked to stop will be grounds for banning from the lists.
>>
>> "Voluntary refraining" under threat of a ban is not voluntary - or are
>> we not speaking the same language?
>
>I asked you to voluntarily refrain from *any* emailing the microformats
>lists for 24 hours.

I note your request and reject it.

>The threat of a ban is for continuing to send *meta-discussion* emails, as
>you have.

You would deny me the right to refute your allegations and state my
defence?

My "request", do you mean "instruction"? Again, if you wish a word to
have meaning other than that usually used, its wise to say so when you
use it.

>That is, I suggested you take a break in general, though if you
>wanted to you could proceed by limiting yourself to on-topic, substantiative
>emails that actually are about improving microformats.

Every single one of my e-mails to this list has that as its aim.


I shall cease posting shortly, but only because I am going to bed.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?

From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 16:09:28 2007
From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:09:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
In-Reply-To: <C1C13019.2343%s-leary@tamu.edu>
References: <21e770780701030252na2fe807j91c779eab09d420@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1C13019.2343%s-leary@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <8a52ddad0701031609p4520c9f4obefec35b93cc9b3b@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Brian and Stephanie for your feedback.
I've fixed two issues Brian was pointing to. Initially I added a
little restriction to time range, because if you put two events
(9:00?10:00) and (9:30?9:55) I don't really know which one should go
first. But you are right, I will left it to user to decide. If he/she
will put ugly data he/she will see ugly table.
I divide time in sessions and didn't allow user to overlap them. So, I
removed this restriction now. Hope it will help.

Now who should approve it to push it on Code section of microformats
page? I hope it deserve an honour to stand next to hCalendar creator?

So far I will update wiki, if nobody against.

-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 16:09:43 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:11:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw"
In-Reply-To: <459AE55A.8920.27C3BC6@bjonkman.sobac.com>
References: <3ce2ebd20612290330o64570245h4bf01ca5378a6ee6@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701010418h4911da4bn237ed112dbc1569c@mail.gmail.com>
	<AC0CE022-8D19-47CF-9352-6785B258874D@westciv.com>
	<459AE55A.8920.27C3BC6@bjonkman.sobac.com>
Message-ID: <kbvTv3AHXEnFFwy9@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <459AE55A.8920.27C3BC6@bjonkman.sobac.com>, Bob Jonkman
quoted PJ Doland:

>If people have to categorize HOW something might be considered NSFW
>(nudity, language, violence, nudity & language, etc.) it's going to
>make them less likely to use the standard in practice.

That's supposition, presented as fact.

>As I've said earlier, I think PICS and ICRA failed because of their
>complexity.

That, too, is no more than an opinion; it's my opinion that they failed
because only highly-complex, finley-granular categiorisation can succeed
(though I can of course see that that brings with it other problems).

[...]
>Adoption of this as a general standard could be VERY helpful for wider
>adoption of microformats as a whole
[...]

and that's hyperbole, with no apparent justification.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From kmarks at technorati.com  Wed Jan  3 16:16:05 2007
From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:16:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fcdfcd88d48dad4e4a2601595cbc81ab@technorati.com>

On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Nick Peters wrote:

> Seeing the tag implementation on Operator has made me question the
> existing tagging standard.  With wordpress you may get something like
> "?cat=13" for a tag or something that may not even be the intended tag
> at all.

Yes, Wordpress abuses the rel="tag" spec by doing that, so I have had 
to code round it at Technorati. They can't do proper url path tags on 
all installs, but the code doesn't omit rel="tag" on the non-tag links.

http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Tag_Spaces says

> Tags may only be placed in the URL path, and only in the last segment 
> of the path. Tags may not be placed in query parameters or fragment 
> identifiers. e.g.
> http://technorati.com/tag/tech?tag=fish#emu
> is still a URL for the tag "tech", not "fish" or "emu".

Actually, stripping parameters is recommended (that's why it says 'last 
path segment'). a previous implementation bug of mine at Technorati 
wasn't doing that properly.

> After doing some research on the wiki I see that the
> rel="tag" microformat is based off of existing defacto standards
> (implemented by sites such as del.icio.us and flickr).  I still don't
> see why the standard extracts the tag from the last part of the URL
> instead of the information inside the anchor tag.  When I see a tag
> and click on it, I expect the visible content, not what's appended to
> the end of a URL.  Anyone care to shed some light on this for me?

The 'last path component of URL' part was based on existing practice by 
both del.icio.us and Flickr when we did the analysis. This was done to 
encourage use of these kinds of tagspaces, rather than just allowing 
linking to an arbitrary URL and using the link text. Setting  up a  
tagspace does take a modest amount of webserver configuration, granted.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan  3 16:19:36 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:23:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] previously non-referenced in the spec	"References"
In-Reply-To: <C1C18355.843FC%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <7CVEJN7u2DnFFwhb@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C1C18355.843FC%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <HrYbTmBYgEnFFwU$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1C18355.843FC%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>> Though, bizarrely, Tantek has reverted that.
>          ^^^^^^^^^
>Please refrain from making ad-hominem attacks on the mailing list.

You appear not to know what "ad hominem means".

> I made an editor judgment call
[...]
>That is sufficient reason.

!!

>Finally, note that this is yet another meta-discussion email that you
>have sent, and thus as promised, absent any objections from anyone else
>on the list (or IRC), you will shortly be banned from the mailing-list
>for a week.

I sent it *before* I received what was supposedly a *request* (and which
I only afterwards understood may apparently have been an instruction).

Is your e-mail not "meta discussion", also?

>I am sorry to do this, but your continued inability to listen to the
>requests that have been made,

I have "listened" to, and rejected, every such *request*.

> and your continued flood of meta-discussion emails on the list have
>left me no other choice in order to maintain the quality of discussion
>on this list.

Take responsibility for your actions; spare us the patronising "no other
choice" euphemism, please.


-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 16:30:24 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:30:15 2007
Subject: xFolk edits from November restored (was Re: [uf-discuss] More
	censorship on the 'wiki')
In-Reply-To: <wUmm858jAEnFFwQ6@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C1C18A80.8440E%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 3:45 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> 
> Tosh. You have only just revered my edit of 19 November:
> 
> <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-faq&diff=10378&oldid=10377>
> 
> and no-one in the community has raised any issue with that in the
> intervening period.

Apologies - an artifact of the way "revert" works on MediaWiki - it seems to
revert ALL the edits made in a row by the same author.

I have restored the edits from November and other edits unrelated to the
edit that I intended to revert.

Thanks,

Tantek

From kmarks at technorati.com  Wed Jan  3 16:40:27 2007
From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:40:34 2007
Subject: Scope of tags (Was: [uf-discuss] rel="nsfw")
In-Reply-To: <iBOy5nzClCnFFwSG@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <wtm2yhQlGWmFFw7z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<200701012003.l01K3B07014249@microformats.org>
	<HMar62TXEXmFFwuK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<21e770780701030231y26b16655if066d2bc156d9149@mail.gmail.com>
	<iBOy5nzClCnFFwSG@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <28e1487f9c06b0057017fc498b7b109a@technorati.com>


On Jan 3, 2007, at 2:08 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On:
>
>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Abstract>
>
>         By adding rel="tag" to a hyperlink, a page indicates that the
>         destination of that hyperlink is an author-designated "tag" (or
>         keyword/subject) for the current page. Note that a tag may just
>         refer to a major portion of the current page
>
>> certainly
>> aggregators would mark that the page is "about" the term "deceased"
>> but it wouldn?t make an assumption about individual hCards? and
>> depending on the mark-up if Sue is NOT nested inside Fred?s hCard,
>> then there is a distinction between where/what/who the rel-tag is
>> relating.
>
> There is? Where, on the rel-tag spec, is that made clear?

It's deliberately not defined there. Other microformats that 
incorporate rel-tag for more specific purposes define the scope (eg 
xfolk, hReview, rel-directory)


From joe at andrieu.net  Wed Jan  3 17:07:53 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Wed Jan  3 17:07:51 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss] previously
	non-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <C1C18355.843FC%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <007901c72f9c$c3b437c0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>

Tantek ? elik wrote:
> Finally, note that this is yet another meta-discussion email 
> that you have sent, and thus as promised, absent any 
> objections from anyone else on the list (or IRC), you will 
> shortly be banned from the mailing-list for a week.

Tantek,

For the record, I do object.  I understand that you are doing what you
feel is the best interest of microformats. However, the mailing list is
the only commons that speaks to the entire microformats community.  It
seems to me that if someone has an issue with governance, the commons is
the right place to make a case, especially as there is no other vehicle
for doing so.

Governance so far has been autocratic and sometimes heavy handed. Your
categorization of these topics as "meta-discussion" only reinforces the
feeling that microformats is run by a cabal that refuses to address and
incorporate feedback from its constituents.  We have no formal
mechanisms for approving or changing microformats, nor do we have any
formal mechanisms for engaging on governance issues.  These are serious
shortcomings.  Again, I encourage you to read the Clay Shirky
article[1].

Andy, having said that, you do sometimes rub people the wrong way and it
can make it hard to keep a positive disposition when discussing things
with you.  I'm also frustrated by the lack of engagement on governance
issues and the wily-nilly approval/change process, but there's been good
work done by this community and there's reason to hope that these issues
will eventually be addressed.

[1] http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651


From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 17:42:24 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 17:42:22 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss] previously
	non-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <007901c72f9c$c3b437c0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 5:07 PM, "Joe Andrieu" <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:

> Tantek ? elik wrote:
>> Finally, note that this is yet another meta-discussion email
>> that you have sent, and thus as promised, absent any
>> objections from anyone else on the list (or IRC), you will
>> shortly be banned from the mailing-list for a week.
> 
> Tantek,
> 
> For the record, I do object.

Joe, thanks very much for your input.  You are the only person (in email or
IRC) who has objected to banning Andy.

However, even as a lone voice (perhaps especially), I respect your
objection.

Thus I have moderated him instead of banning him.

Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> is now moderated (not banned) on
microformats lists.? This means that his posts MUST be approved by one of
the list admins before going to the list.? If he successfully sends only
topical / positive / improving email to the lists for one week (i.e. no
emails that moderators have to bounce or drop) then moderation may be
lifted.


> I understand that you are doing what you
> feel is the best interest of microformats. However, the mailing list is
> the only commons that speaks to the entire microformats community.

The mailing list is only one commons that speaks to the entire microformats
community.  E.g. anyone can write a blog post on their own blog and tag it
with "microformats".  Folks that are steadfastly following microformats are
also checking all blog posts tagged with microformats:

 http://technorati.com/tag/microformats


> It
> seems to me that if someone has an issue with governance, the commons is
> the right place to make a case, especially as there is no other vehicle
> for doing so.

The issues are about one individual's disruptive/noisy/distracting behavior
in particular unfortunately, which he is then attempting to defend by hiding
behind governance pedantics.


> Governance so far has been autocratic and sometimes heavy handed. Your
> categorization of these topics as "meta-discussion" only reinforces the
> feeling that microformats is run by a cabal that refuses to address and
> incorporate feedback from its constituents.

Though I think "refuses" is a bit strong - I accept your feedback and will
seek to improve this.

Note that the overall challenge here is one of balance, and priorities.

When only one disruptive individual has problems with governance, rather
than the community as a whole, then it tends to lead one to believe that the
problem may be more with the individual than with the community or the
governance.


> We have no formal
> mechanisms for approving or changing microformats, nor do we have any
> formal mechanisms for engaging on governance issues.  These are serious
> shortcomings.

I'm not sure I agree that these are shortcomings.  If the alternative is
bureaucracy which slows everything down, and spending time on developing
bureaucracy rather than developing microformats, then I reject this as a
shortcoming.  We as a community may be judged for that, but it is my hope
that our positive achievements overall will greatly outweigh nitpicks of
governance.  

That being said, I still believe it is important to track *any* outstanding
issue - even meta-issues like governance, so that we as community don't
forget them, and have the opportunity/reminder resolve them, even if it
takes a while.  I encourage you to add such issues that you see to the
general issues page:

 http://microformats.org/wiki/issues


> Again, I encourage you to read the Clay Shirky
> article[1].

It's a good article.  I've read it before and at your recommendation just
re-read it.  Thanks for the link and reminder.


> Andy, having said that, you do sometimes rub people the wrong way and it
> can make it hard to keep a positive disposition when discussing things
> with you.

There have been numerous private emails sent to the list admins as well
complaining about Andy's behavior.  This was not an action taken lightly,
nor without community input.


> I'm also frustrated by the lack of engagement on governance
> issues and the wily-nilly approval/change process, but there's been good
> work done by this community and there's reason to hope that these issues
> will eventually be addressed.

Joe, I very much appreciate your statement of hope, and in return hope that
I and others in the community don't let you down.


> [1] http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

Thanks again,

Tantek


From ckstjohn at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 19:11:23 2007
From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John)
Date: Wed Jan  3 19:11:27 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss] previously
	non-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <007901c72f9c$c3b437c0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
	<C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <8ba906450701031911ge62c6f8h6649b7553378d5c2@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/3/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On 1/3/07 5:07 PM, "Joe Andrieu" <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
>
> > For the record, I do object.
>
> Joe, thanks very much for your input.  You are the only person (in email or
> IRC) who has objected to banning Andy.
>

I'm a little late, but for the record, I'd object to banning Andy as well.

I've been on lists where disruptive people had to be banned, but in
this case Andy is both well-intentioned and often (*cough* choking
this one out, hard to form the words) has good points.

And let's face it, compared to historical norms on, say, Usenet, Andy
doesn't even rank.

A small group of like-minded individuals with a common background
who know each other personally is easy to organize. This was that,
but it ain't no more. All for the good if it's recognized and adapted to,
unfortunate otherwise. Enough of that, though.

Peace.


-cks


-- 
Christopher St. John
http://artofsystems.blogspot.com

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jan  3 19:26:02 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jan  3 19:25:58 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss] previously
	non-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <8ba906450701031911ge62c6f8h6649b7553378d5c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1C1B395.84446%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/3/07 7:11 PM, "Christopher St John" <ckstjohn@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/3/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> On 1/3/07 5:07 PM, "Joe Andrieu" <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> For the record, I do object.
>> 
>> Joe, thanks very much for your input.  You are the only person (in email or
>> IRC) who has objected to banning Andy.
>> 
> 
> I'm a little late, but for the record, I'd object to banning Andy as well.

Thanks for your input as well Chris.


> I've been on lists where disruptive people had to be banned, but in
> this case Andy is both well-intentioned and often (*cough* choking
> this one out, hard to form the words) has good points.
> 
> And let's face it, compared to historical norms on, say, Usenet, Andy
> doesn't even rank.
> 
> A small group of like-minded individuals with a common background
> who know each other personally is easy to organize. This was that,
> but it ain't no more. All for the good if it's recognized and adapted to,
> unfortunate otherwise. Enough of that, though.


You make good points.


The big difference here (in contrast to Usenet, other lists etc.) is that
this community has retained a remarkably positive and inviting tone of
discussion for quite a long time, much much more so than those other forums,
and those involved with this community very much value that and have chosen
to protect that over accommodating individuals whose method/manner of
communication is harsher, noisier etc., in spite of well-intentions, good
points, and heck, even positive contributions.

I wrote a bit more about how the microformats community is different in this
way in a post last month:

<http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-December/007
578.html>


In addition, I recommend that everyone read this article by Kathy Sierra
which I believe to be quite relevant to the topic/discussion at hand:

<http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/04/angrynegative
_p.html>


> Peace.

Agreed.

Thanks Chris,

Tantek


From zen at zenpsycho.com  Wed Jan  3 21:23:04 2007
From: zen at zenpsycho.com (Breton Slivka)
Date: Wed Jan  3 21:23:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extending hCard and hCalendar vs. strict
	adherence	to vcard and vCalendar.
In-Reply-To: <wZs2fzBCSWlFFwgc@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <qvJQCSBMAAjFFwxy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C6922A12-48AE-4297-A28F-70759327D23C@zenpsycho.com>
	<wZs2fzBCSWlFFwgc@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <D380574A-F719-4D29-A7DB-9BFF65B9E635@zenpsycho.com>


On Dec 29, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> In message <C6922A12-48AE-4297-A28F-70759327D23C@zenpsycho.com>,  
> Breton
> Slivka <zen@zenpsycho.com> writes
>
>> There's a few rather obvious problems with this idea that I can see.
>> However, before I point them out, I will note that if the benefits of
>> such a plan outweigh the problems, then go for it. However I suggest
>> very carefully thinking about this before going nuts with extensions.
>
> Who is advocating "going nuts"?

It's a rhetorical device. The intent is to warn against unrestricted  
extensions to the standard with no problem cases to back up such  
solutions. Nobody was advocating such a thing, but it is one possible  
consequence of what you suggested.

>
>> #1. More work for implementors.  While this rarely is seen as an   
>> issue
>> for people on this list, (Tantek promotes that it's far more   
>> important
>> to make it easier for publishers), one has to consider that  if you
>> specify some extension such as date of death, how likely is it  to be
>> implemented by anyone other than yourself?
>>
>> #2. In such an implementation, what specific benefit would having a
>> specific field offer over just adding a note? Are there specific use
>> cases when sorting contact information by date of death, for example,
>> is important?
>
> You're criticising a wide concept by considering one suggested  
> example.

No, I'm using the example you suggested as an example, of the sort  
design as problem solving thought process one should be using while  
considering extensions to a format. Namely, asking the questions  
"what problem is this solving? Does it actually need to be solved?,  
How badly does it need to be solved? What are the consequences of  
solving it in this way? Are there alternative ways of solving it?"  
etc...

>
> Nonetheless, there are sufficient "dates of death" on the web to  
> suggest
> that marking them up, semantically, would be useful, and incorporating
> them in hCards, ditto.
>

useful for what? What problem would such a thing solve? I've never  
needed to find a person via their date of death, but then, I'm not a  
mortician or a police investigator, so it may very well be an actual  
problem for 80%, but this needs to be considered before creating an  
extension specifically for it, and adding complexity to an already  
somewhat difficult format. I am picking on your date of death  
example, but similar questions would need to be asked for every  
extension.

> This is especially relevant when incorporating hCards into other uFs,
> such as those for citations and reviews
>

why?

>> #3. Unreliable round tripping: This would be a fairly minor   
>> annoyance,
>> but an annoyance nonetheless.
>
> What do you mean by "Unreliable round tripping"?
>
Client X supports features A, B, C. Client Y supports features A, C,  
D.  How would you deal with exchanging data between these two  
programs, and maintaining self consistent database structures?  
Admittedly this is an issue for developers, but it becomes a problem  
for users when the author of client X and client Y don't agree on how  
to solve it.


>> #4. Divergent standards: Are there any other extensions to icalendar
>> or vcard being done by other groups and/or vendors? Is there  
>> likely  to
>> be in the future?
>
> No, ad no. See previous discussion.
>
> [...]

Do you mind linking to any specific posts?

>
>> The hCard and iCalendar standard allow  for vendor specific  
>> extensions,
>> anyway, if you really really need  feature X for a specific problem.
>> With a clever enough client, and  publishing implementation, this can
>> probably be done with hCard and  hCalendar as is, while maintaining
>> backward compatibility.
>
> How? Feel free to use DoD as an example.
>
> -- 
> Andy Mabbett



<div class="vcard">
<span class="fn">Abraham Lincoln</span>
<div class="org">United States</div>
<div class="adr">
   <div class="street-address">1600 Pennsylvania Ave.</div>
   <span class="locality">Washington</span>
,
   <span class="region">DC</span>
  <abbr class="dod" title="18650415">April 15, 1865</abbr>
</div>


Then, someone can correct me if this is incorrect, when a client  
written to deal with DoD encounters class="dod", it can import it  
with an "x-" prefix (for vendor specific properties, as allowed by  
vcard, I think) rather than try and do fancy things with notes. (see  
note above about client author disagreements).




-Breton


From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan  3 21:58:57 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan  3 21:59:00 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss] previously
	non-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <8ba906450701031911ge62c6f8h6649b7553378d5c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007901c72f9c$c3b437c0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
	<C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<8ba906450701031911ge62c6f8h6649b7553378d5c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B6C40E24-9D6A-4AAF-B0BC-63155805B609@lava.net>

On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Christopher St John wrote:

> On 1/3/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> On 1/3/07 5:07 PM, "Joe Andrieu" <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
>>
>> > For the record, I do object.
>>
>> Joe, thanks very much for your input.  You are the only person (in  
>> email or
>> IRC) who has objected to banning Andy.
>>
>
> I'm a little late, but for the record, I'd object to banning Andy as  
> well.
>
> I've been on lists where disruptive people had to be banned, but in
> this case Andy is both well-intentioned and often (*cough* choking
> this one out, hard to form the words) has good points.

This is definitely true. He has offered useful commentary, and I  
appreciate that. However, I definitely would like to interject that I  
think something does need to be done, and I applaud Tantek for taking  
action -- the situation was becoming increasingly annoying and. As  
someone who has, in another community, had to take moderative action  
against a well-intentioned, visible member, I understand how delicate  
something like this can be, and I approve of Tantek's decision to  
moderate Andy, rather than ban him.

I would also like to thank him for bringing this issue into the  
limelight so we can discuss it, and hopefully, help Andy to become a  
better member of the community.

-Colin
From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan  3 22:26:55 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan  3 22:26:58 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss] previously
	non-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <8ba906450701031911ge62c6f8h6649b7553378d5c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007901c72f9c$c3b437c0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
	<C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<8ba906450701031911ge62c6f8h6649b7553378d5c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701032226y6967ba0doa19509a0c4f148f9@mail.gmail.com>

> A small group of like-minded individuals with a common background
> who know each other personally is easy to organize. This was that,
> but it ain't no more.

I'm not sure how much this applies... the group of administrators is a
world wide group of volunteers.  Although this hasn't always been
true, even the very earliest of adopters and active community members
have origins all around the world, and no personal connections.

Ben
From zen at zenpsycho.com  Wed Jan  3 23:25:16 2007
From: zen at zenpsycho.com (Breton Slivka)
Date: Wed Jan  3 23:25:21 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss] previously
	non-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <C1C1B395.84446%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <C1C1B395.84446%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <E8AC6111-C794-4F4A-B6FB-CBC47E3E1121@zenpsycho.com>


On Jan 3, 2007, at 8:26 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote:

> The big difference here (in contrast to Usenet, other lists etc.)  
> is that
> this community has retained a remarkably positive and inviting tone of
> discussion for quite a long time, much much more so than those  
> other forums,
> and those involved with this community very much value that and  
> have chosen
> to protect that over accommodating individuals whose method/manner of
> communication is harsher, noisier etc., in spite of well- 
> intentions, good
> points, and heck, even positive contributions.

As I read what's been going on in the list, the issue with Andy  
hasn't been so much his tone. This being text only medium, tone is  
very difficult to read into text, and most of the perceived tone of a  
post comes from personal interpretation. I think the reason Andy is  
now rubbing people the wrong way is a matter of the lack of substance  
in his posts. Strip away the emotional appeals, and there's virtually  
nothing left! If an argument can't be reduced to standard form  
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_form), then there is little  
point to the post, and it becomes like talking to a brick wall.

My suggestion then is that in a list which is primarily an impersonal  
and intellectual discussion on problem solving in a specific domain,  
the judgement call about whether someone is being disruptive should  
be based on whether there's actual (not emotional or personal)  
content in the post. Can the argument be restated in standard form?  
Considering the nature of this list, posts consisting primarily of  
emotional appeals and personal attacks just don't fit, and can easily  
escalate, unless cooler heads prevail. In this case, I think Tantek  
made the right call under these criteria, whether it was done  
knowingly or intuitively. 
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Thu Jan  4 02:11:00 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Thu Jan  4 02:11:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701040211u30f5e035m16d7e59a849f4665@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/3/07, Nick Peters <strategicpause@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seeing the tag implementation on Operator has made me question the
> existing tagging standard.  With wordpress you may get something like
> "?cat=13" for a tag or something that may not even be the intended tag
> at all.

Agreed, the default behaviour is very clear and easy to understand,
but I'd quite like to see some sort of escaping mechanism for
overriding the tag value.

Maybe <a href="http://example.com/?tag=foo" title="foo">Foo</a>?

It could bear looking at but I'd want to check through the mailing
list archives to see what has previously been discussed.

> I still don't
> see why the standard extracts the tag from the last part of the URL
> instead of the information inside the anchor tag.  When I see a tag
> and click on it, I expect the visible content, not what's appended to
> the end of a URL.  Anyone care to shed some light on this for me?

The main reason that I can see is to allow normalisation of tags
across different pages.  One might have <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29">Soccer</a>
and the other <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29">Football</a>,
for instance.

-Ciaran McNulty
From joe at andrieu.net  Thu Jan  4 02:33:35 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Thu Jan  4 02:33:31 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss]
	previouslynon-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <00b101c72feb$cb397970$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>

Tantek ? elik wrote:
> On 1/3/07 5:07 PM, "Joe Andrieu" <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
> 
> > Tantek ? elik wrote:
> > For the record, I do object.
> 
> Joe, thanks very much for your input.  You are the only 
> person (in email or
> IRC) who has objected to banning Andy.
> 
> However, even as a lone voice (perhaps especially), I respect 
> your objection.

Tantek, I appreciate that, and the considered response.  As others have
said, it is a delicate situation and I do believe that you and the
others involved in moderating our group have the best interests of the
project at heart.

> Thus I have moderated him instead of banning him.

>From a functional standpoint, there really isn't much difference.  The
ban was stensibly for discussing governance issues.  From various
party's comments, including your own, I think it is clear the ban was
more for reasons of etiquette, decorum, and public disturbance.

Frankly, I find those latter reasons much firmer grounds for banning or
moderating someone. Shutting down a sincere desire to address governance
issues instead comes across as autocrative and unresponsive to community
input. Banning someone who riles everyone up is just being a good
bouncer.

> > I understand that you are doing what you
> > feel is the best interest of microformats. However, the 
> mailing list 
> > is the only commons that speaks to the entire microformats 
> community.
> 
> The mailing list is only one commons that speaks to the 
> entire microformats community.  E.g. anyone can write a blog 
> post on their own blog and tag it with "microformats".  Folks 
> that are steadfastly following microformats are also checking 
> all blog posts tagged with microformats:
> 
>  http://technorati.com/tag/microformats


This is interesting, and if blogs are a primary vehicle for the uF
commons, it should be highlighted as such (and this is the first I've
heard of that option).  I for one, do not post uF related content on my
blog. I post it here. Because that's where most people involved with
read it. The folks who read my blog read it for other reasons.  I know
IRC is also a commons of a sort, one that seems to be effective for
those who use it.  However, I think it is a true statement that the
largest % of uF users/contributors use this list as their primary
touchpoint.  As such, it would seem to be the primary commons.

> > It
> > seems to me that if someone has an issue with governance, 
> the commons 
> > is the right place to make a case, especially as there is no other 
> > vehicle for doing so.
> 
> The issues are about one individual's 
> disruptive/noisy/distracting behavior in particular 
> unfortunately, which he is then attempting to defend by 
> hiding behind governance pedantics.

Countering disruptive behavior is governance.  Andy felt like you were
slapping him down and I think he reacted in part to say "What gives
/you/ the right?"

That's a reasonable question of governance:  What rules are in place
that explain why the behavior is unacceptable?  And how is it to be
judged that such rules are violated.

My own frustrations mostly stem from the fact that, IMNSHO, far too many
decisions are made by a small number of people without any legitimate
process in place for building or judging consensus.  The addition of
"place" for hCard is a great example.  That was a significant change in
semantics and there was not a consenus about it.  Rather, those who have
the functional capability simply updated the wiki.

Brian responded to this earlier saying he felt it was appropriate
because it reflects common usage.  But that really isn't what a standard
is.  The problem before the metric system was that every jurisdiction's
common usage for various measures was different. No interoperability.
Same thing with timezones before standardization.  In fact, microformats
and the semantic web are ALL about creating interoperability. For
example, the restrictions on the namespace are all geared to /forge/ a
consensus standard taxonomy.  If that "standard" can change at the drop
of a few emails, it really isn't much of a standard.

>From a different direction, if we had good version control, with
explicit approvals, it would be extremely easy for me to support quick
revs and updates based on usage.  As long as I can know that the hcard
in question is v2007.a or later, I can be assured of certain semantics.
As it is, I can't even tell if it /is/ an hcard (rather than a local
class name that looks like an hcard)

But we have neither quality versioning nor explicity processes for
approving and designating "official" microformats.

Everything is essentially at the whim of our fearless leaders.

> > Governance so far has been autocratic and sometimes heavy 
> handed. Your 
> > categorization of these topics as "meta-discussion" only reinforces 
> > the feeling that microformats is run by a cabal that refuses to 
> > address and incorporate feedback from its constituents.
> 
> Though I think "refuses" is a bit strong - I accept your 
> feedback and will seek to improve this.

To clarify, "reinforces the feeling" was meant to soften that a bit.
There is a feeling that things are a bit autocratic, that if a few
people agree it?s a good thing, then nobody else's opinion really
matters.

> Note that the overall challenge here is one of balance, and 
> priorities.

I agree. And I give you credit for your efforts on this.

> When only one disruptive individual has problems with 
> governance, rather than the community as a whole, then it 
> tends to lead one to believe that the problem may be more 
> with the individual than with the community or the governance.

More than just Andy has expressed frustration. I think he's just been
the most vocal and annoying. ("Annoying" here is based on observed
responses.)

> > We have no formal
> > mechanisms for approving or changing microformats, nor do 
> we have any 
> > formal mechanisms for engaging on governance issues.  These are 
> > serious shortcomings.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree that these are shortcomings.  If the 
> alternative is bureaucracy which slows everything down, and 
> spending time on developing bureaucracy rather than 
> developing microformats, then I reject this as a shortcoming. 
>  We as a community may be judged for that, but it is my hope 
> that our positive achievements overall will greatly outweigh 
> nitpicks of governance.

Tantek, there is no governance for uF other than by cabal, which
historically has proven useful only in a limited scale.  The
alternative, of determining a means of governance, need not create a
heavy bureaucracy, in fact, it can be liberating.  Frankly, a more
decentralized approach would do uF good. And that would require a small
set of explicit procedural standards and a huge release of authority.
The obvious and/or na?ve bureacratic options could easily create a mess
of burdensome procedures, but there's no reason we would have to be
na?ve or choose the obvious.

> That being said, I still believe it is important to track 
> *any* outstanding issue - even meta-issues like governance, 
> so that we as community don't forget them, and have the 
> opportunity/reminder resolve them, even if it takes a while.  
> I encourage you to add such issues that you see to the 
> general issues page:
> 
>  http://microformats.org/wiki/issues

I'll do that.

> > Again, I encourage you to read the Clay Shirky
> > article[1].
> 
> It's a good article.  I've read it before and at your 
> recommendation just re-read it.  Thanks for the link and reminder.

Excellent. I'm not always the most eloquent and I thought Clay did a
great job.

> > I'm also frustrated by the lack of engagement on governance 
> issues and 
> > the wily-nilly approval/change process, but there's been good work 
> > done by this community and there's reason to hope that these issues 
> > will eventually be addressed.
> 
> Joe, I very much appreciate your statement of hope, and in 
> return hope that I and others in the community don't let you down.

I'll stick around and see how I might help. I figure either we'll find a
way together to evolve uF to something that can both scale and be
robust, or another project will emerge to fill that void. Frankly, I
think it would be easier and more productive to work with what is
already working so well.

Best,

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651


From faaborg at mozilla.com  Thu Jan  4 02:56:32 2007
From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg)
Date: Thu Jan  4 02:56:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator: Microformat detection for Firefox 2
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0612170918g6257ef1dx5d880f293de3ebf2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D70357A9-B858-4531-8865-AAF28762013F@mozilla.com>
	<a0623092ec1a9a48f195e@192.168.1.26>
	<1bc4603e0612170918g6257ef1dx5d880f293de3ebf2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ADFDFD7-BC16-444C-9CC9-F354AC679C9C@mozilla.com>

Sorry for the delay in replying, just got back from vacation.

> Our challenge, in my estimation, is to move beyond simple data
> conversion (as useful as that is compared with what little we have
> today) and start to look at the meeting point between semantic data in
> webpages and behaviors that can be contextually applied to them.
>

I've been trying to brainstorm what these contextual behaviors might  
be.  One approach could be to combine the detected information with  
additional information to complete an action.  For instance,  
generating driving directions from the user's home (which is in their  
profile) to a location (which is exposed on the page using a  
microformat).  Or checking if the user is free for a particular event  
by automatically looking up the event's time slot in their calendar.

Can you think of other contextual behaviors that could be useful?

-Alex



On Dec 17, 2006, at 9:18 AM, Chris Messina wrote:

> Alex, welcome and congrats on the release!
>
> As I was telling Tantek last night, you've now "operationalized" his
> hcard demo. ;)
>
> This is really quite cool and a great start.
>
> Our challenge, in my estimation, is to move beyond simple data
> conversion (as useful as that is compared with what little we have
> today) and start to look at the meeting point between semantic data in
> webpages and behaviors that can be contextually applied to them.
>
> A simple salient example is in Camino, where you right-click an email
> address and the menu offers you the ability to copy just the email
> address *or* look it up in Address Book. Clearly for any hcard, this
> behavior makes sense and I'd like to see work done (some of which I'm
> working on personally) to explore the user interface opportunities
> that microformats provide, espeically for browser makers.
>
> Chris
>
> On 12/16/06, Angus McIntyre <angus@pobox.com> wrote:
>> At 03:23 -0800 16.12.2006, Alex Faaborg wrote:
>> >Today Mozilla Labs released a microformat extension for Firefox 2
>> >named Operator.  The extension was developed by Michael Kaply at  
>> IBM,
>> >and detects hCard, hCalendar, geo, hReview and rel-tag.
>> >http://labs.mozilla.com/2006/12/introducing-operator
>>
>> Nice.
>>
>> One thing I notice is that if I view my resume (in hResume) at:
>>
>> 	http://www.nomadcode.com/info/resumeAngusMcIntyre.html
>>
>> the Operator menu shown under Google Calendar correctly pulls out all
>> the hCalendar entries, but munges title and company together, i.e.
>>
>> 	Software developerblip.tv, ...
>>
>> Is this a flaw in Operator, or should I be marking up my resume
>> differently to be more Operator-friendly?
>>
>> I've also encountered cases where it's not picking up what I believe
>> to be a valid hCard, but I need to review my code to see whether it's
>> really as valid as I think it is before reporting that as a bug.
>>
>> Angus
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From timber at lava.net  Thu Jan  4 04:45:52 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Thu Jan  4 04:45:56 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss]
	previouslynon-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <00b101c72feb$cb397970$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
References: <00b101c72feb$cb397970$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <A93A3D4E-8154-42B3-A804-06FDDD9FB1CC@lava.net>

On Jan 4, 2007, at 12:33 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote:

> Tantek, there is no governance for uF other than by cabal

IMO, that is the way it should be. You don't put new hires on your  
company's steering committee, and the House doesn't approve  
presidential appointments, the Senate does -- in fact, the US senate  
is an excellent example: older, cooler heads to offset the firey  
"voice of the people" the house is supposed to represent.

That said, I think there should be bit more visible superstructure  
around just who is in this "cabal". It seems to me like the Editors/ 
Authors of the various specs form the majority it of it, but perhaps  
that should be made a bit more apparent, and the "powers" of an editor  
(essentially, the ability to veto changes to the wiki, it seems)  
outlined a bit and some information about how to become an editor  
(AFIACT, make numerous, quality edits to the Wiki that the other  
editors approve of).

In summary: the people who have written the spec, the editors and  
authors, are the most knowledgeable about them, and should have a  
disproportionate amount of influence in what goes into the spec and  
what doesn't. I think one thing that may trip people up is that just  
because a wiki is used, that doesn't mean that Wikipedia style  
governance will (or should) be present.

One more thing: this isn't a list about discussing meta-topics (in  
theory). Maybe a new list should be created for the discussion of meta- 
issues (such as the additions of new lists), as some of us aren't  
interested in reading that.

-Colin
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Jan  4 07:26:01 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Jan  4 07:26:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator: Microformat detection for Firefox 2
In-Reply-To: <5ADFDFD7-BC16-444C-9CC9-F354AC679C9C@mozilla.com>
References: <D70357A9-B858-4531-8865-AAF28762013F@mozilla.com>
	<a0623092ec1a9a48f195e@192.168.1.26>
	<1bc4603e0612170918g6257ef1dx5d880f293de3ebf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ADFDFD7-BC16-444C-9CC9-F354AC679C9C@mozilla.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701040726l1a50e4c4p5e47bc96405c0468@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/4/07, Alex Faaborg <faaborg@mozilla.com> wrote:
> I've been trying to brainstorm what these contextual behaviors might
> be.  One approach could be to combine the detected information with
> additional information to complete an action.  For instance,
> generating driving directions from the user's home (which is in their
> profile) to a location (which is exposed on the page using a
> microformat).  Or checking if the user is free for a particular event
> by automatically looking up the event's time slot in their calendar.
>
> Can you think of other contextual behaviors that could be useful?

--- there is a greasemonkey script which will find any class="tel" and
convert that to a SKYPE callto: link. So another interesting
contextual behavior might be to have "Call this number" and possibly
use the callto protocol or something else?

With GEO you can use APIs from other sources such as geoURL and/or
Flickr, so if i find an hCa* with a GEO i can find other "interesting"
things with-in (5-10-15 miles/kilometers). [not as useful as the
callto, but interesting]

Those are just the ones off the top of my head.

-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Jan  4 07:52:08 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Jan  4 07:52:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extending hCard and hCalendar vs. strict adherence
	to vcard and vCalendar.
In-Reply-To: <D380574A-F719-4D29-A7DB-9BFF65B9E635@zenpsycho.com>
References: <qvJQCSBMAAjFFwxy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C6922A12-48AE-4297-A28F-70759327D23C@zenpsycho.com>
	<wZs2fzBCSWlFFwgc@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<D380574A-F719-4D29-A7DB-9BFF65B9E635@zenpsycho.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701040752x26ad28e6wdae3b1a8f9f72cba@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/4/07, Breton Slivka <zen@zenpsycho.com> wrote:
> <div class="vcard">
> <span class="fn">Abraham Lincoln</span>
> <div class="org">United States</div>
> <div class="adr">
>    <div class="street-address">1600 Pennsylvania Ave.</div>
>    <span class="locality">Washington</span>
> ,
>    <span class="region">DC</span>
>   <abbr class="dod" title="18650415">April 15, 1865</abbr>
> </div>
>
>
> Then, someone can correct me if this is incorrect, when a client
> written to deal with DoD encounters class="dod", it can import it
> with an "x-" prefix (for vendor specific properties, as allowed by
> vcard, I think) rather than try and do fancy things with notes. (see
> note above about client author disagreements).

--- i'll keep this breif because we are toeing that fine-line between
discuss and dev lists. If you want to chat more about this, we can
take this to the dev list.

The problem with random x- prefixes is that a parse can NOT determine
if the value 'dod' is meant to convey semantics (date of death) or
that is purely a CSS style.

For instance:
<div class="vcard">
<span class="fn president blue-box call-out alert">Abraham Lincoln</span>
</div>

what becomes 'x-???' in vcard and what doesn't?

BEGIN:VCARD
FN:Abraham Lincoln
X-PRESIDENT:Abraham Lincoln
X-BLUE-BOX:Abraham Lincoln
X-CALL-OUT:Abraham Lincoln
X-ALERT:Abraham Lincoln
END:VCARD

Because of this, there has not been any attempt to add in the 'X-'
parameters into the parsing rules.

If you (or anyone) is still interested, feel free to email the dev-list.

Thanks,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From drernie at opendarwin.org  Thu Jan  4 09:11:02 2007
From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar)
Date: Thu Jan  4 09:11:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Governance Issues Re: Banning for meta-discusion
In-Reply-To: <C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <C1C19B31.8442A%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <A99F3AC4-4A5D-4FB4-8C9F-AE16DF7BB62D@opendarwin.org>

Hi all,

On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:42 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote:
> That being said, I still believe it is important to track *any*  
> outstanding
> issue - even meta-issues like governance, so that we as community  
> don't
> forget them, and have the opportunity/reminder resolve them, even  
> if it
> takes a while.  I encourage you to add such issues that you see to the
> general issues page:
>
>  http://microformats.org/wiki/issues

Okay, I've done my best to follow the format there and add a formal  
issue around "Governance":

http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-issues#Governance_Issues

Hopefully others can expand/clean it up as necessary.

For the record, while I completely agree with Colin that we would  
benefit from a more transparent (and perhaps slightly gentler)  
process, I deeply appreciate Tantek's courage, humility, and  
graciousness in attempting to deal with this situation.  I too have  
had to moderate mailing list disputes [1], and I know how difficult  
it is to find the right balance between helping people feel "safe"  
and ensuring they feel "free."  We may never get it right (so I  
second the call for a meta-list :-), but I feel very privileged to be  
part of a community that hasn't stopped trying.

-- Ernie P.

[1] Moderator's Verdict: The Justice of Comedy <http://urlx.org/ 
radicalcentrism.org/b5fbb>
From zen at zenpsycho.com  Thu Jan  4 09:38:11 2007
From: zen at zenpsycho.com (Breton Slivka)
Date: Thu Jan  4 09:38:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extending hCard and hCalendar vs. strict adherence
	to vcard and vCalendar.
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701040752x26ad28e6wdae3b1a8f9f72cba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <qvJQCSBMAAjFFwxy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C6922A12-48AE-4297-A28F-70759327D23C@zenpsycho.com>
	<wZs2fzBCSWlFFwgc@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<D380574A-F719-4D29-A7DB-9BFF65B9E635@zenpsycho.com>
	<21e770780701040752x26ad28e6wdae3b1a8f9f72cba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0EAF5EB0-1178-4128-BB1C-138B8BB0E5D8@zenpsycho.com>


On Jan 4, 2007, at 8:52 AM, Brian Suda wrote:

> On 1/4/07, Breton Slivka <zen@zenpsycho.com> wrote:
>> <div class="vcard">
>> <span class="fn">Abraham Lincoln</span>
>> <div class="org">United States</div>
>> <div class="adr">
>>    <div class="street-address">1600 Pennsylvania Ave.</div>
>>    <span class="locality">Washington</span>
>> ,
>>    <span class="region">DC</span>
>>   <abbr class="dod" title="18650415">April 15, 1865</abbr>
>> </div>
>>
>>
>> Then, someone can correct me if this is incorrect, when a client
>> written to deal with DoD encounters class="dod", it can import it
>> with an "x-" prefix (for vendor specific properties, as allowed by
>> vcard, I think) rather than try and do fancy things with notes. (see
>> note above about client author disagreements).
>
> --- i'll keep this breif because we are toeing that fine-line between
> discuss and dev lists. If you want to chat more about this, we can
> take this to the dev list.
>
> The problem with random x- prefixes is that a parse can NOT determine
> if the value 'dod' is meant to convey semantics (date of death) or
> that is purely a CSS style.
>
> For instance:
> <div class="vcard">
> <span class="fn president blue-box call-out alert">Abraham Lincoln</ 
> span>
> </div>
>
> what becomes 'x-???' in vcard and what doesn't?
>
> BEGIN:VCARD
> FN:Abraham Lincoln
> X-PRESIDENT:Abraham Lincoln
> X-BLUE-BOX:Abraham Lincoln
> X-CALL-OUT:Abraham Lincoln
> X-ALERT:Abraham Lincoln
> END:VCARD
>
> Because of this, there has not been any attempt to add in the 'X-'
> parameters into the parsing rules.
>
> If you (or anyone) is still interested, feel free to email the dev- 
> list.
>
> Thanks,
> -brian


Since I don't have access to the dev list, and only have a passing  
interest in this, I will simply quickly clarify the point I was  
attempting to make in the first post.

x- extensions being vendor specific, the decision of which classes  
become x-___ would be vendor specific, and only if a specific  
application really *really* needs it. Since such extensions are  
unlikely to become globally adapted, the problem of global  
application doesn't come into it. 1 website, 1 vendor, 1  
application.  The problem of adapting extensions to the format as a  
standard is too big to take so lightly though, so I wouldn't  
reccomend it beyond specific non standard applications. Applications  
still need to work together for the most part, and allowing this just  
opens a big complicated can of worms.
From steveivy at gmail.com  Thu Jan  4 10:50:46 2007
From: steveivy at gmail.com (Steve Ivy)
Date: Thu Jan  4 10:50:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voting-examples
Message-ID: <d9a04aea0701041050s2481b9c9sbf98e298eb81d36@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've started a page on the wiki for voting examples [1], and I'd
appreciate some review/feedback on it. It's hardly exhaustive so
please feel free to pitch in.

Thanks,

--Steve (monkinetic)

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/voting-examples

-- 
Steve Ivy
http://redmonk.net
From joe at andrieu.net  Thu Jan  4 15:05:26 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Thu Jan  4 15:05:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Rough consensus and working code
Message-ID: <005001c73054$d3409680$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>

Hey folks, especially Tantek,

I just wanted to reconnect in this forum with something I believe in
strongly, even though my latest posts about governance might seem to be
a bit contrary:

  "We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in: rough
consensus and running code."

That's a quote from David Clark in 'Rough Consensus and Running Code'
and the Internet-OSI Standards War[1].

There's also a brief article in a similar vein "Rough Consensus and
Running Code
KISSING THE FROG OF HTTP" [2].

So far microformats has done great with the rough consensus and running
code. I think that's a large part of why it works.  We could probably
improve on our rejection of kings and presidents, although it is hard to
figure out how to do that without creating other problems. 


Cheers,

-j

[1]
http://www.computer.org/portal/cms_docs_annals/annals/content/promo2.pdf
[2] http://www.w3journal.com/4/s1.people.html



--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651



From strategicpause at gmail.com  Thu Jan  4 18:16:08 2007
From: strategicpause at gmail.com (Nick Peters)
Date: Thu Jan  4 18:16:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel="tag"
Message-ID: <d52ba3070701041816o71df793ct4f0f56d35bb62df7@mail.gmail.com>

On 03/01/07, Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> wrote:
> I might be misunderstanding you, but I think you might be confusing
> categorisation with tagging (the latter being a method of adding
> additional context)?
I guess my question was why it was chosen to extract the last part of
the URL to signify the tag instead of the contents of the anchor tag.
Someone used "<a rel="tag" http://exmaple.com/kid-safe>porn</a>" as an
example, but didn't really explain their example further.  I just
wanted further clarification on the choice other than "it's based off
commonly used standards."
The problem with using URLs for the tags is that not everyone will
have mod_rewrite setup to properly adhere to the current standard,
which is why you may have those blogs (such as wordpress) that show up
differently.  Perhaps something like Ciaran McNulty idea of using the
title property to specify that tag name could be looked into?  It's
seems like an easy and straight-forward way of extracting the
information.
-Nick
From microformats at 200ok.com.au  Thu Jan  4 20:21:43 2007
From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan)
Date: Thu Jan  4 20:21:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>

> Seeing the tag implementation on Operator has made me question the
> existing tagging standard.  With wordpress you may get something like
> "?cat=13" for a tag or something that may not even be the intended tag
[snip]

I find this quite frustrating too. I've expanded on my thoughts at
http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2006/01/limitations-of-rel-microformat.html
so I won't rehash it here.

I don't see a clear reason why ?tag=blah couldn't be an acceptable
format. I also think the standard should require parsers to match the
tag and the visible text (failure meaning the tag is rejected).

That would stop obvious abuse like <a
href="http://technorati.com/tag/nasty+nsfw+stuff" rel="tag">nice
worksafe stuff</a> being indexed. That way your expectations based on
visible text would be addressed as well.

cheers,

Ben

-- 
--- <http://www.200ok.com.au/>
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
From fil at rezo.net  Fri Jan  5 00:36:35 2007
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Fri Jan  5 00:36:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070105083635.GP31830@rezo.net>

> >Seeing the tag implementation on Operator has made me question the
> >existing tagging standard.  With wordpress you may get something like
> >"?cat=13" for a tag or something that may not even be the intended tag
> [snip]
> 
> I find this quite frustrating too. I've expanded on my thoughts at
> http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2006/01/limitations-of-rel-microformat.html
> so I won't rehash it here.

I second this, though I think it's easy (but admittedly ugly) for wordpress
or any other to do something like ?cat=13&cleartext=/tagName

> I also think the standard should require parsers to match the
> tag and the visible text (failure meaning the tag is rejected).

Careful with this: already having accents is not a piece of cake, but you
will have to match
      <a rel="tag" href=".../%E3t%E3">&eacute;t&eacute;</a>
and other niceties (and consider the charset)
You'll also have the case where the link is on an image...

-- Fil

From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Fri Jan  5 00:56:57 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Fri Jan  5 00:57:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <20070105083635.GP31830@rezo.net>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070105083635.GP31830@rezo.net>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701050056t28a10f00oa5fdc06b52bfaea5@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/5/07, Fil <fil@rezo.net> wrote:
> I second this, though I think it's easy (but admittedly ugly) for wordpress
> or any other to do something like ?cat=13&cleartext=/tagName

Except rel-tag explicitly uses the last part of the URL path, and
should ignore query parameters and fragment identifiers[1]

i.e.  http://example.com/tags?tag=/fish => tags

> Careful with this: already having accents is not a piece of cake, but you
> will have to match
>       <a rel="tag" href=".../%E3t%E3">&eacute;t&eacute;</a>
> and other niceties (and consider the charset)
> You'll also have the case where the link is on an image...

There are also issues with multilingual sites that might want a
unified tagging scheme.

e.g. <a href="http://example.com/tags/fish" rel="tag">poisson</a>

-Ciaran McNulty
From doctormo at gmail.com  Fri Jan  5 08:20:37 2007
From: doctormo at gmail.com (Martin Owens)
Date: Fri Jan  5 08:20:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
Message-ID: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I propose the following microformat for describing an online purchase
receipt, allowing collecting into accountancy software and general
receipt collectors (depending on complexity and requirements):

[hReceipt]
Transaction ID
Order Number
Date
TotalCost
BillingAddress [hCard]
Packages [hPackage]

[hPackage]
DeliveryAddress [hCard]
DeliveryCost
Purchases [hPurchase]

[hPurchase]
ProductSku
ProductName
Cost

The kinds of complexities to appear are to do with taxes, special
offers and discounts; but I'd rather make a start and expand with what
is the best direction to take.

Best Regards, Martin Owens
From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Jan  5 08:31:45 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Jan  5 08:31:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
In-Reply-To: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>

On 05/01/07, Martin Owens <doctormo@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all,

Hi Martin! :)

> I propose the following microformat for describing an online purchase
> receipt, allowing collecting into accountancy software and general
> receipt collectors (depending on complexity and requirements):
>
> [hReceipt]
> Transaction ID
> Order Number
> Date
> TotalCost
> BillingAddress [hCard]
> Packages [hPackage]
>
> [hPackage]
> DeliveryAddress [hCard]
> DeliveryCost
> Purchases [hPurchase]
>
> [hPurchase]
> ProductSku
> ProductName
> Cost
>
> The kinds of complexities to appear are to do with taxes, special
> offers and discounts; but I'd rather make a start and expand with what
> is the best direction to take.
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens

Before starting to spec up a possible microformat you should follow
the process.  Basically, a series of research jobs and documentation
of what's already out there needs to happen.  That way, once you've
gone through all of that, you know that a) the microformat is actually
a valid one and will solve a problem and b) accurate!

Take a look at this:

http://microformats.org/wiki/process


F

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From doctormo at gmail.com  Fri Jan  5 09:00:35 2007
From: doctormo at gmail.com (Martin Owens)
Date: Fri Jan  5 09:00:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>
References: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>

Oh sorry, I wasn't proposing anything per say. the research I've done
includes search the mailing list, the wiki, google and several other
ecommerce resources, didn't find anything.

I've mainly just jotted down some notes to get them out my head, did
you want me to list urls or relevant information too? I must admit to
not being very proficient at standards creation but I thought you'd
like to talk about the 'idea' rather than just the notes and
structures.

Thanks for the link, I'll try and read it see what I missed.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On 05/01/07, Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/01/07, Martin Owens <doctormo@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello all,
>
> Hi Martin! :)
>
> > I propose the following microformat for describing an online purchase
> > receipt, allowing collecting into accountancy software and general
> > receipt collectors (depending on complexity and requirements):
> >
> > [hReceipt]
> > Transaction ID
> > Order Number
> > Date
> > TotalCost
> > BillingAddress [hCard]
> > Packages [hPackage]
> >
> > [hPackage]
> > DeliveryAddress [hCard]
> > DeliveryCost
> > Purchases [hPurchase]
> >
> > [hPurchase]
> > ProductSku
> > ProductName
> > Cost
> >
> > The kinds of complexities to appear are to do with taxes, special
> > offers and discounts; but I'd rather make a start and expand with what
> > is the best direction to take.
> >
> > Best Regards, Martin Owens
>
> Before starting to spec up a possible microformat you should follow
> the process.  Basically, a series of research jobs and documentation
> of what's already out there needs to happen.  That way, once you've
> gone through all of that, you know that a) the microformat is actually
> a valid one and will solve a problem and b) accurate!
>
> Take a look at this:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/process
>
>
> F
>
> --
> Frances Berriman
> http://fberriman.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Jan  5 09:11:17 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Jan  5 09:11:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
In-Reply-To: <69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>
	<69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701050911u5aa34402jf1c053dae0f3afbb@mail.gmail.com>

On 05/01/07, Martin Owens <doctormo@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh sorry, I wasn't proposing anything per say. the research I've done
> includes search the mailing list, the wiki, google and several other
> ecommerce resources, didn't find anything.

No sweat.

> I've mainly just jotted down some notes to get them out my head, did
> you want me to list urls or relevant information too? I must admit to
> not being very proficient at standards creation but I thought you'd
> like to talk about the 'idea' rather than just the notes and
> structures.

That's fine, but obviously if it's not documented anywhere it's hard
for anyone else to have any input and help/give feedback.

Tell us about what you've found, though!  This is for discussion, yes.
 So that's a good place to start. :)


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From nferrier at tapsellferrier.co.uk  Fri Jan  5 09:14:57 2007
From: nferrier at tapsellferrier.co.uk (Nic James Ferrier)
Date: Fri Jan  5 09:16:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
In-Reply-To: <69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
	(Martin Owens's message of "Fri\, 5 Jan 2007 17\:00\:35 +0000")
References: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>
	<69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87lkkh75v2.fsf@tapsellferrier.co.uk>

"Martin Owens" <doctormo@gmail.com> writes:

> Oh sorry, I wasn't proposing anything per say. the research I've done
> includes search the mailing list, the wiki, google and several other
> ecommerce resources, didn't find anything.


I think the process might fall down a bit here.

After all, to see the data you mostly have to buy something.

Maybe we should create a wiki page to ask for submissions for people
so we can see enough data from the wild.

I've got a bunch of HTML reciepts from the last year. I wonder if
others have.


-- 
Nic Ferrier
http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk   for all your tapsell ferrier needs
From doctormo at gmail.com  Fri Jan  5 09:46:53 2007
From: doctormo at gmail.com (Martin Owens)
Date: Fri Jan  5 09:46:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
In-Reply-To: <87lkkh75v2.fsf@tapsellferrier.co.uk>
References: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>
	<69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<87lkkh75v2.fsf@tapsellferrier.co.uk>
Message-ID: <69ff73b20701050946ud1e28f0l7fef4c427ca83f1f@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I have some experience in ecommerce to begin with, but I didn't
find a lot of info, it seems to be currently within business rather
than set standards:

Examples:
http://www.clickandpledge.com/Products/Payment/Receipt.asp
http://www.blacksunn.net/receipts/ - paper receipts :-D

But at least it's a problem that needs attention and not just in
microformats so it would apear. :-/

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On 05/01/07, Nic James Ferrier <nferrier@tapsellferrier.co.uk> wrote:
> "Martin Owens" <doctormo@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Oh sorry, I wasn't proposing anything per say. the research I've done
> > includes search the mailing list, the wiki, google and several other
> > ecommerce resources, didn't find anything.
>
>
> I think the process might fall down a bit here.
>
> After all, to see the data you mostly have to buy something.
>
> Maybe we should create a wiki page to ask for submissions for people
> so we can see enough data from the wild.
>
> I've got a bunch of HTML reciepts from the last year. I wonder if
> others have.
>
>
> --
> Nic Ferrier
> http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk   for all your tapsell ferrier needs
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From ryan at ryancannon.com  Fri Jan  5 10:04:16 2007
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Fri Jan  5 10:04:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator: Microformat detection for Firefox 	2
In-Reply-To: <200701041528.l04FSSWf015883@microformats.org>
References: <200701041528.l04FSSWf015883@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <7A21A069-6582-4AD9-979D-2320659927DE@ryancannon.com>

On Jan 4, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Brian Suda wrote:
>> Can you think of other contextual behaviors that could be useful?
>
> With GEO you can use APIs from other sources such as geoURL and/or
> Flickr, so if i find an hCa* with a GEO i can find other "interesting"
> things with-in (5-10-15 miles/kilometers). [not as useful as the
> callto, but interesting]

As an avid geocacher[1], I like to be aware whenever there's geocaches
near a place I'm going to visit. This usually is a tedious process, but
GEO + Web Services could make it omnipresent in my Web experience.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocaching

On the topic of Operator, version 0.6.1 isn't working for me at all in
Firefox 2.0.0.1/OS X. Anyone else having this problem? I even
double-checked it on the ocono.com page used in the demo screenshot.

-- 
Ryan Cannon

Interactive Developer
MSI Student, School of Information
University of Michigan
http://RyanCannon.com


From ryan at ryancannon.com  Fri Jan  5 10:24:15 2007
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Fri Jan  5 10:24:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <200701051622.l05GMS5T015462@microformats.org>
References: <200701051622.l05GMS5T015462@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <4DF09948-4D82-477F-8585-00BCC12FA313@ryancannon.com>

Fil wrote:
>> I also think the standard should require parsers to match the
>> tag and the visible text (failure meaning the tag is rejected).
>
> Careful with this: already having accents is not a piece of cake,  
> but you
> will have to match
>       <a rel="tag" href=".../%E3t%E3">&eacute;t&eacute;</a>
> and other niceties (and consider the charset)
> You'll also have the case where the link is on an image...

<a rel="tag" href=".../ee"><abbr title="ee">&eacute;&eacute;</abbr></a>

and

<a rel="tag" href=".../ee"><img alt="ee" src="foo.png"></a>

address both of those problems, respectively.

Ciaran McNulty wrote:
> There are also issues with multilingual sites that might want a
> unified tagging scheme.
>
> e.g. <a href="http://example.com/tags/fish" rel="tag">poisson</a>

This is an interesting problem that I have yet to see discussed in  
depth.

We do, however, have a few tools to deal with it:

abbr[title]
a[hreflang]
*[lang]
*[title]

It seems like, at the minimum, you should already be doing

<a href="http://example.com/tags/fish" hreflang="en"  
lang="fr">poisson</a>

I have yet, however, to encounter a site that uses the hreflang  
attribute to
demarcate links to pages in different languages. In fact, based on  
the Google's
Web Authoring Statistics[2], hreflang is used less often than <a ;="">

[2]: http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/element-a.html

-- 
Ryan Cannon

Interactive Developer
MSI Student, School of Information
University of Michigan
http://RyanCannon.com


From rbach at rbach.priv.at  Fri Jan  5 11:44:56 2007
From: rbach at rbach.priv.at (Robert Bachmann)
Date: Fri Jan  5 11:43:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
In-Reply-To: <69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>	<e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>
	<69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <459EAAB8.1090600@rbach.priv.at>

Martin Owens schrieb:
> Oh sorry, I wasn't proposing anything per say. the research I've done
> includes search the mailing list, the wiki, google and several other
> ecommerce resources, didn't find anything.
> 

Please see <http://microformats.org/wiki/recipe-examples>

Thanks,
-- 
Robert Bachmann <rbach@rbach.priv.at> (OpenPGP KeyID: 0x4A5CCF10)
From rbach at rbach.priv.at  Fri Jan  5 15:11:37 2007
From: rbach at rbach.priv.at (Robert Bachmann)
Date: Fri Jan  5 15:10:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
In-Reply-To: <459EAAB8.1090600@rbach.priv.at>
References: <69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>	<e86992a40701050831s1159a723pb6e14022635f7168@mail.gmail.com>	<69ff73b20701050900i4fcfcdd2wcfa51fbd709bdb0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<459EAAB8.1090600@rbach.priv.at>
Message-ID: <459EDB29.70105@rbach.priv.at>

Robert Bachmann schrieb:
> Martin Owens schrieb:
>> Oh sorry, I wasn't proposing anything per say. the research I've done
>> includes search the mailing list, the wiki, google and several other
>> ecommerce resources, didn't find anything.
>>
> 
> Please see <http://microformats.org/wiki/recipe-examples>

Sorry, I misread the subject line, I thought Martin was talking about cooking 
recipes.

-- 
Robert Bachmann <rbach@rbach.priv.at> (OpenPGP KeyID: 0x4A5CCF10)
From karns.17 at osu.edu  Sat Jan  6 00:49:49 2007
From: karns.17 at osu.edu (Jason Karns)
Date: Sat Jan  6 00:49:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extension to include-pattern
Message-ID: <008601c7316f$a03a1380$0101a8c0@BRUTUS>

As per the include-pattern, I'd like the ability to reference a previously
defined object and include it in a subsequent hcard. In my case, I have the
organization marked up as an hcard and later in the document, I have
additional hcards for employees. As it stands now (or at least how I
understand it), the include object needs only the class 'include'. The
class(es) of the included tree are carried along and used for parsing. Would
it make sense to have any classes on the including object override a class
specified on included tree's root? For instance, my organization is marked
up as an hcard like so:

<span class="vcard">
	<span id="firm" class="fn org">3AM Productions</span> is a
	<span class="note">web design firm</span>
</span>
...
<span class="vcard">
	<a class="fn url" href="jason.php" title="see more about
Jason">Jason Karns</a>
</span>

And later in an employee's hcard, I would like to include the organization
from the previous hcard. However, due to the overloading of 'fn' and 'org',
if I were to simply include '#firm' into an employee's hcard (which already
has 'fn' defined), I would have a conflict with 'fn'.

<span class="vcard">
	<a class="fn url" href="jason.php" title="see more about
Jason">Jason Karns</a>
	<object data="#firm" class="include"></object>
</span>

Parsed vCard
============
FN: Jason Karns 3AM Productions ???????
URL: jason.php
ORG-NAME: 3AM Productions
NOTE: web design firm



My proposal would be to allow any extra hcard classes on the including
object override the class value on the included subtree. So following the
above example,

<span class="vcard">
	<span id="firm" class="fn org">3AM Productions</span> is a
	<span class="note">web design firm</span>
</span>
...
<span class="vcard">
	<a class="fn url" href="jason.php" title="see more about
Jason">Jason Karns</a>
	<object data="#firm" class="include organization-name"></object>
</span>

Notice the extra class on the object element. This class would then override
the classes specified on the included element ('firm'). Thus 'fn org'
becomes 'organization-name' and possible conflicts are avoided.

Parsed vCard
============
FN: Jason Karns
URL: jason.php
ORG-NAME: 3AM Productions
NOTE: web design firm



Any thoughts?

Jason Karns
~~~~~~~~~~~
The Ohio State University [www.osu.edu]
Computer Science & Engineering [www.cse.osu.edu]

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sat Jan  6 02:45:05 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sat Jan  6 02:45:10 2007
Subject: On emergent policy and self vs governance in common (Was: Re:
	[uf-discuss] Rough consensus and working code)
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701060245x3b45b0ccgbb3edf4d12092a09@mail.gmail.com>

I had "gone away" from this list a month or so back owing to Andy's
sometimes abrasive tone and pedantic reasoning. I simply didn't have
time to parse through all the hub-bub, as interesting as it might have
been to certain folks in the middle of it.

I'm glad that Tantek has taken action, as I previously encouraged him
to do, because, though I value Andy's positive contributions to the
list, the wiki and the community, many of his contributions worked to
unravel or undue the positive karma they earned him.

As Tantek said, it's a balancing act -- and Andy was very good
providing net neutral contributions.

But, I do not wish to dwell on that topic, for, at the very least,
groundbreaking action has been taken finally, and action that we can
learn from, in light of what's also come before us.

What I did want to talk about, however, are two things -- namely the
meta-centralization that the microformats-dot-org community represents
and the emergent policy that microformats, as an effort to codify a
series of best practices that become standard in web-transmittable
computer code, stands for. My goal is to illustrate the broader
purpose and perspective of the work we're doing, to propose a proper
ego-placement with regards to this work, and suggest potential
parallels which make the cabal-like governance work in certain
circumstances, and unravel in others, even within this community.

1. Where microformats fits in the broader picture.

I'll get this out of the way right now. The terms and names of
microformat classes, rel-values and so on don't matter. They don't. In
many sense, they're arbitrary, just as AJAX and HTML caught on.
They're simply placeholders for meaning, like the dollar bill is used
to transmit the meaning of value in society.

What is valuable, however, is agreement on terms. Agreement and
implementation between organizations and institutions -- for
implementation is non-binding, but by supporting a common cause, both
parties stand to benefit in ways neither is quite sure of yet, but
sees no reason to act to the contrary.

In this case, microformats such as hcard and hcalendar have found wide
support, because, unlike other external efforts that tried to reinvent
schema, we (Tantek in particular) dispensed with coming up with yet
more schema and went with existing convention (note that when we have
undertaken the "naming" process with new microformats, that process is
often where most of this community's contention and dissension lies).

But naming is an ego-driven event that is similar to an artist signing
his or her work; and when has a community produced a singular piece of
artwork? Rarely, if ever!

2. Why the microformats community operates as a cabal, and why it
should continue to do so.

Anyone who has participated in this community for some time will know
how hard it is to get a new microformat "blessed" -- that is,
accepted, documented, promoted and 'officialized' by the community.
There are many microformats efforts that have been relegated to the
scrapheap of semantic history or to the personal industry of smaller
parties, but very few efforts actually result in what we all would
call a microformat when we see it.

Truth be told, coming up with standards of any kind is a difficult and
harried process. There are those among us who have direct experience
with closed bodies who have and have not been successful with their
charge to develop interoperable standards and who could teach us all
about the quagmire that is standards development. But there is
strength is focus and in defending an ideal by intuitive fiat, even if
it seems unfair to those who have a great deal to offer but do not
have the same deftness that the incumbents possess.

As such, those who have been around from the beginning and have
weathered the hills and dales of this community have, in my opinion,
earned their seat at the table of the cabal. Fortunately, this cabal
is dependent upon the support of the community and upon obeisance of
its dicta or else it would simply cease to exist. In that way, the
controlling cabal is still very much subservient to the
implementations and good works of the community to give it its power;
if people stopped implementing or caring about microformats tomorrow,
regardless of their perceived arrogance or very real self-assurance,
their importance would only be to themselves.

And in that way, there is an important balance achieved, between
despotism and collaboration fueled by meritorious leadership. But,
this only scales to such a degree -- and feudalism can only hold so
long as the needs of the tenants are being met often enough. In the
case where centralization and cabalism leads to paralysis of natural
growth and species development, certain changes are in order.

3. On the continued rhizomatic development of microformats

A rhizome is a type of root-based plant that sends out lateral roots
to create offshoot new instantiations of itself. Strawberries are
rhizomatic as is ginger [1]. What's important about a rhizome  is that
it's growth path is predicated on similar and equal offshoots being
cultivated in environments in which the original may not have been
borne. As such, the offshoot is better healed to deal with the foreign
environment than if the original had simply been cloned or if it had
tried to impose itself on a foreign or hostile soil.

What does this have to do with this community? Well, for one thing,
the cabal-like institution of the microformats community leadership is
powerful because we give it its power. And I trust it to look out for
our best interests; at the same time, I think that there are
opportunities to both relieve some pent up pressure as well as
consider alternative models that would continue to effectively spread
microformats and the practices that this community espouses beyond our
areas of natural influence.

I think a salient example of this came recently when my partner, Tara
Hunt, was consider for deletion on Wikipedia (as I have been consider
before). Now, Wikipedians obviously have the interest of Wikipedia in
mind when they consider removing things from the index and they also,
one might surmise, have the readers in mind as well. However, in both
discussions over whether to remove Tara and myself from the index (and
this has been repeated for other people in the index as well) it was
the *individual bias of Wikipedia editors* that ruled out over the
unspoken interest of the minority communities that stood to benefit
from our inclusion (one person even suggested that I be kept in the
index since I was a "Notable programmer that assisted in creating a
few notable groups and browsers" [2] -- those who know me know that I
can't code for shyte -- and thus the reasoning for keeping would have
been arbitrary at best).

So, coming back to microformats, I think that it's time, as a matter
of governance and Darwinian evolution, that we actual begin thinking
about allowing new species of microformats to exist in the wild --
they may not receive a "blessing" by us, but I hardly think that all
the creatures on earth today were predicted in any non-secular books.

To this end, I would recommend the specific explanation and
characterization, vis-a-vis the microformats process, of efforts that
fall into any of these categories:

1. best practice -- a technique has been discovered to make the
composition of XHTML documents more consistent or more semantically
accurate, for example, using the <cite> tag
2. design pattern -- this isn't necessary a "data format" in the sense
that microformats should be about data interchange, but a design
pattern is XHTML that can be used to facilitate the development of
human interfaces, and may, for example, leverage existing microformats
to achieve its affect (an example could be if flickr applied a
behavior to hcards that allowed you to add a person marked up with the
hcard microformat to your friends list)... the presence of
microformats for a design pattern, however, is purely optional
3. exploratory/brainstorming -- gee, wouldn't it be great to have a
format for Smooth Peanut Butter? -- primarily at the early stages, no
code is necessary to explore a concept, but an interested or committed
following is present and is willing to document the problem they'd
like to solve and existing behavior
4. working draft -- essentially a series of conventions or best
practices have been developed that may show up in the wild and that
are probably "good enough" to start putting into use, with the
understanding that changes are still likely
5. recommendation/specification -- this is where things solidify
enough so that making a change has some impact... in fact, you could
use this stage to definitively mark up your documents knowing that a
change is unlikely; what separates this stage from becoming a "real"
microformat is implementations in the wild; if no one adopts or puts
this work into practice, you have a dead standard that would serve
only to clutter the microformat ecosystem
6. microformat -- only when there is mass deployment in the wild, such
that, given any significant sampling of pages on the open web, you
*might* bump into this format, should it then be considered an actual
microformat -- for in practice, the community at large (the one that
subsumes the microformats community and its leading cabal) has shown
its support by adopting the conventions recommended in the spec and
have shown their approval of it by *actually deploying it*

The last and final stage is the hardest, as it requires influence,
political might and campaigning; but those are the microformats that
will likely last and be embraced -- and, futhermore, are the most
indisputable because there are real, rather than imagined or
potential, statistics behind them.

Note that that list is preliminary, but does pay homage to the W3C
process stages, but in a much more informal way [3]:

   1. Working Draft (WD)
   2. Last Call Working Draft
   3. Candidate Recommendation (CR)
   4. Proposed Recommendation (PR)
   5. W3C Recommendation (REC)

Finally, to conclude, I would like to suggest that expanding and
making more explicity the preliminary stages of "microformat
crystalization" allows external communities to take this effort and
expand it beyond our natural sphere of influence or first-hand
knowledge. The purpose, of course, is to avoid the kind of
Wikipedian-myoptic purview that would lead the effort down the path of
exclusivity and stagnation. If anything stands out about the current
governance structure, it's that we have a strong political will in
Tantek who does a damn fine job keeping us on target but who, to the
detriment of the whole, hasn't allowed for market forces to take care
of the nascent efforts that might emerge external to this list.

If anything else, I want to avoid at all costs, now that we're seeing
popular support from Firefox et al, the conversion of our rich and
diverse community into a Tech Crunch-like kingmaker -- that people
somehow think they have to win favor with in order to be successful. I
think the point is that anyone should be able to build out and see
through the execution and development of a microformats, potentially
entirely outside of this list, simply by religiously adhering to the
principals by which we govern ourselves and allow ourselves to be
governed.

For all the times that Andy has asked Tantek "what gives you the
right?" there is an equal opportunity to say, "I give myself the
right" to take these ideas, these practices, the fundamental goes and
assumptions of this community and to strike out on my own, to pursue
that which I know is right and is valuable to a community that those
who reside on the list are unfamiliar with. For all Andy's struggles
to have his way, there was a larger goal of using simple principles to
semanticize the web that he could have, at any point, taken elsewhere
and not forked the community, but done his work in an environment that
suited him better.

I know why Tantek did why he did and I support him in his decision.
But I also support Andy's ability to pioneer his own efforts, not
necessary under the microformats name, but under the same principles.
And should he be successful, well, he certainly would have some
valuable bargaining chips to lay down when he offers his opinions to
the us and to the cabal, wouldn't he?

That's all for now.

Chris

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizome
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Chris_Messina_%28open_source_ambassador%29
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W3c#Recommendations_and_certifications

On 1/4/07, Joe Andrieu <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
> Hey folks, especially Tantek,
>
> I just wanted to reconnect in this forum with something I believe in
> strongly, even though my latest posts about governance might seem to be
> a bit contrary:
>
>   "We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in: rough
> consensus and running code."
>
> That's a quote from David Clark in 'Rough Consensus and Running Code'
> and the Internet-OSI Standards War[1].
>
> There's also a brief article in a similar vein "Rough Consensus and
> Running Code
> KISSING THE FROG OF HTTP" [2].
>
> So far microformats has done great with the rough consensus and running
> code. I think that's a large part of why it works.  We could probably
> improve on our rejection of kings and presidents, although it is hard to
> figure out how to do that without creating other problems.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> -j
>
> [1]
> http://www.computer.org/portal/cms_docs_annals/annals/content/promo2.pdf
> [2] http://www.w3journal.com/4/s1.people.html
>
>
>
> --
> Joe Andrieu
> joe@andrieu.net
> +1 (805) 705-8651
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From fil at rezo.net  Sat Jan  6 03:06:20 2007
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sat Jan  6 03:06:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <4DF09948-4D82-477F-8585-00BCC12FA313@ryancannon.com>
References: <200701051622.l05GMS5T015462@microformats.org>
	<4DF09948-4D82-477F-8585-00BCC12FA313@ryancannon.com>
Message-ID: <20070106110620.GI17938@rezo.net>

> >      <a rel="tag" href=".../%E3t%E3">&eacute;t&eacute;</a>
> >and other niceties (and consider the charset)
> >You'll also have the case where the link is on an image...
> 
> <a rel="tag" href=".../ee"><abbr title="ee">&eacute;&eacute;</abbr></a>
> 
> and
> 
> <a rel="tag" href=".../ee"><img alt="ee" src="foo.png"></a>
> 
> address both of those problems, respectively.

Thanks. Do you have a reference? It's a bit too much code, btw, it would be
simpler if we could use a[title]

> I have yet, however, to encounter a site that uses the hreflang  
> attribute to
> demarcate links to pages in different languages.

Try http://www.spip.net/

You need a site that is multilingual and automaticaly generated, it's not
game to compare with encoding errors :-P


-- Fil

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Sat Jan  6 05:21:37 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Sat Jan  6 05:21:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extension to include-pattern
In-Reply-To: <008601c7316f$a03a1380$0101a8c0@BRUTUS>
References: <008601c7316f$a03a1380$0101a8c0@BRUTUS>
Message-ID: <21e770780701060521re7fa0bdl3fc4c6a473ab1258@mail.gmail.com>

The current include pattern does solve your problems. See below:

On 1/6/07, Jason Karns <karns.17@osu.edu> wrote:
> <span class="vcard">
>         <span id="firm" class="fn org">3AM Productions</span> is a
>         <span class="note">web design firm</span>
> </span>
> ...
> <span class="vcard">
>         <a class="fn url" href="jason.php" title="see more about
> Jason">Jason Karns</a>
> </span>

--- the rule for FN and ORG is that they need to be the same value, i
don't believe there is a requirement that they be on the same node
(although that saves mark-up), you could do this:

<span id="firm" class="fn"><span class="org">3AM Productions</span></span>

> And later in an employee's hcard, I would like to include the organization
> from the previous hcard. However, due to the overloading of 'fn' and 'org',
> if I were to simply include '#firm' into an employee's hcard (which already
> has 'fn' defined), I would have a conflict with 'fn'.
>
> <span class="vcard">
>         <a class="fn url" href="jason.php" title="see more about
> Jason">Jason Karns</a>
>         <object data="#firm" class="include"></object>
> </span>

--- because of the singleton property, once a value of FN is found all
subsequent values are ignored, so FN in the include would not be used,
but the FN "Jason Karns" instead.

> My proposal would be to allow any extra hcard classes on the including
> object override the class value on the included subtree.
> ...
> Notice the extra class on the object element. This class would then override
> the classes specified on the included element ('firm'). Thus 'fn org'
> becomes 'organization-name' and possible conflicts are avoided.

--- adding more rules to the include node is not needed and IMHO
complicates things further. There whole include pattern parsing is
still up in the air, if you have specific questions please email the
dev-list.

thanks,
-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan  5 12:44:57 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan  6 10:33:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701050056t28a10f00oa5fdc06b52bfaea5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070105083635.GP31830@rezo.net>
	<cdc278e10701050056t28a10f00oa5fdc06b52bfaea5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2cMneviJjrnFFwBu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<cdc278e10701050056t28a10f00oa5fdc06b52bfaea5@mail.gmail.com>, Ciaran
McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>Except rel-tag explicitly uses the last part of the URL path, and
>should ignore query parameters and fragment identifiers[1]
>
>i.e.  http://example.com/tags?tag=/fish => tags

So the "workaround" at:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#Google_as_rel-tag_namespace>

will not work?

-- 
Andy Mabbett

ET*W?: <http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan  6 12:34:20 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan  6 15:00:53 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible but in Operator extension)
Message-ID: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


I have used two includes, for location and summary, in the hCalendar of
the first event on:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/kidderminster/indoor.htm>

(styles are in-line, only during development)

but it's not recognised by neither Tails or Operator; the latter says
its invalid, but gives a blank dialogue box when selected. Nor does the
"Almost Universal" parser find the summary or location of that event.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

ET*W?: <http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan  6 13:11:27 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan  6 15:01:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701040211u30f5e035m16d7e59a849f4665@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10701040211u30f5e035m16d7e59a849f4665@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pcep+DL$BBoFFweA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<cdc278e10701040211u30f5e035m16d7e59a849f4665@mail.gmail.com>, Ciaran
McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>>I expect the visible content, not what's appended to
>> the end of a URL.  Anyone care to shed some light on this for me?
>
>The main reason that I can see is to allow normalisation of tags
>across different pages.  One might have <a
>href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29">Soccer</a>
>and the other <a
>href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29">Football</a>,
>for instance.

Aren't they "hidden metadata"? Shouldn't they both be:

        <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29">
        Football (soccer)</a>


-- 
Andy Mabbett

-- ET*W? - http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/

From csyu77 at gmail.com  Sat Jan  6 15:11:33 2007
From: csyu77 at gmail.com (Calvin Yu)
Date: Sat Jan  6 15:11:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible but in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>

My understanding is that the class value of the include element should
be 'include', and the actual value class should be in the referenced
element.  At least that is what Tails is looking for.

Calvin

On 1/6/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> I have used two includes, for location and summary, in the hCalendar of
> the first event on:
>
>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/kidderminster/indoor.htm>
>
> (styles are in-line, only during development)
>
> but it's not recognised by neither Tails or Operator; the latter says
> its invalid, but gives a blank dialogue box when selected. Nor does the
> "Almost Universal" parser find the summary or location of that event.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>
> ET*W?: <http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan  6 16:34:42 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan  6 17:03:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible bug in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>,
Calvin Yu <csyu77@gmail.com> writes

>> I have used two includes, for location and summary, in the hCalendar of
>> the first event on:
>>
>>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/kidderminster/indoor.htm>
>>
>> (styles are in-line, only during development)
>>
>> but it's not recognised by neither Tails or Operator; the latter says
>> its invalid, but gives a blank dialogue box when selected. Nor does the
>> "Almost Universal" parser find the summary or location of that event.

>My understanding is that the class value of the include element should
>be 'include', and the actual value class should be in the referenced
>element.  At least that is what Tails is looking for.

Thank you.

I've amended the page to that effect and it seems to work in Tails, but
not in AUMP nor Operator (though I now seem to recall that
include-pattern will be implemented in a future version of Operator - is
that correct?)

However, there's an issue, in that any styles applied, intentionally, to
class="X" inside a uF will now also be applied to the element thus
classed, elsewhere on the page (most of the H2, on this page, is now
"class="summary").

That's not a problem in this case, but may effect others.



Also, is there a way to concatenate values. For instance on that page, I
could blend:

        <span id="summaryB" class="summary">Kidderminster Branch Indoor
        Meeting</span>

in the H2 with, say:

        <span id="summaryA>Janaury </span>

or the equivalent in the TH for each meeting, thuis:

        <object data="#summaryA+#sumamryB" class="include"
        style="display:none;"></object>

or:

        <span class="include" style="display:none;">  [1]
           <object data="#summaryA">
           </object><object             <!-- Can't have white space ?-->
           data="#summaryB"></object>
        </span>

to give summaries of:

        January Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting

        February Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting

and so on, thus ensuring their uniqueness.

Or perhaps something similar with the name of the speaker at each event:

        Gerry Griffiths: Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting

        Graham Harrison: Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting

(If not, I'll add that to the wiki as a proposal)



[1] I'm assuming it's OK to use display:none for receptive use of text
which appears elsewhere on the page, as in this case.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

-- ET*W? - http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/
From sayrer at gmail.com  Sat Jan  6 22:32:19 2007
From: sayrer at gmail.com (Robert Sayre)
Date: Sat Jan  6 22:32:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar and iCalendar parameters
Message-ID: <68fba5c50701062232r1b0d20cdq183dfea7b1d17cf@mail.gmail.com>

I noticed that many properties in iCalendar allow optional
"parameters", which seem similar to XML attributes. For example, the
LOCATION property (RFC2445, section 4.2.10) defines a language
parameter.

I fished around for explanations on this, but didn't find anything.
What is the hCalendar way of representing these? Or, preferably, the
hCalendar way of explaining why these aren't needed? :)

-- 

Robert Sayre
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Sat Jan  6 23:59:27 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Sat Jan  6 23:59:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar and iCalendar parameters
In-Reply-To: <68fba5c50701062232r1b0d20cdq183dfea7b1d17cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1C5E801.847F9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/6/07 10:32 PM, "Robert Sayre" <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:

> I noticed that many properties in iCalendar allow optional
> "parameters", which seem similar to XML attributes. For example, the
> LOCATION property (RFC2445, section 4.2.10) defines a language
> parameter.
> 
> I fished around for explanations on this, but didn't find anything.
> What is the hCalendar way of representing these? Or, preferably, the
> hCalendar way of explaining why these aren't needed? :)

To answer the specific question of the language parameter - the answer is
that (X)HTML already defines the "lang" attribute on every element for this.

See for example the explanation in hCard authoring which also uses "lang":

 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Set_the_lang_when_different

Just now also added to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-faq

If there are any other specific questions (rather than a general theoretical
question :) we can address them accordingly.

Thanks,

Tantek

From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Sun Jan  7 00:44:21 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Sun Jan  7 00:44:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <2cMneviJjrnFFwBu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070105083635.GP31830@rezo.net>
	<cdc278e10701050056t28a10f00oa5fdc06b52bfaea5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2cMneviJjrnFFwBu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701070044k1aec06car55c1112b639bf90f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/5/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> So the "workaround" at:
>
>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#Google_as_rel-tag_namespace>
>
> will not work?

Not in a fully conformant parser, no.

-Ciaran McNulty
From kmarks at technorati.com  Sun Jan  7 01:16:57 2007
From: kmarks at technorati.com (Kevin Marks)
Date: Sun Jan  7 01:17:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <2cMneviJjrnFFwBu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070105083635.GP31830@rezo.net>
	<cdc278e10701050056t28a10f00oa5fdc06b52bfaea5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2cMneviJjrnFFwBu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1bcc7c5b573687b842b7091955221b25@technorati.com>


On Jan 5, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> Except rel-tag explicitly uses the last part of the URL path, and
>> should ignore query parameters and fragment identifiers[1]
>>
>> i.e.  http://example.com/tags?tag=/fish => tags
>
> So the "workaround" at:
>
>         
> <http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#Google_as_rel-tag_namespace>
>
> will not work?

Not with a conforming implementation, though it will with a crued one 
that does the equivalent of

tag=split(url,'/')[-1]

if you'll excuse my Python

From mark at geekhive.net  Sun Jan  7 09:45:56 2007
From: mark at geekhive.net (Mark Jaroski)
Date: Sun Jan  7 10:07:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Validator
Message-ID: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>

Hi all,

I dunno if this question has been asked before; I only looked two months
back.

But anyhow, is anybody working on a validator?  I've just started using
µformats on http://wikevent.org and would love to be able to validate them.

Thanks!

-mark


-- 
--
=================================================================
-- mark at geekhive dot net --
From strategicpause at gmail.com  Sun Jan  7 10:26:14 2007
From: strategicpause at gmail.com (Nick Peters)
Date: Sun Jan  7 10:26:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Validator
In-Reply-To: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>
References: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>
Message-ID: <d52ba3070701071026w749d3e21l4513abae9eda8b4c@mail.gmail.com>

Operator has validator like functionality.  Check it out at
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/

On 1/7/07, Mark Jaroski <mark@geekhive.net> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I dunno if this question has been asked before; I only looked two months
> back.
>
> But anyhow, is anybody working on a validator?  I've just started using
> ?formats on http://wikevent.org and would love to be able to validate them.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -mark

From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Sun Jan  7 11:48:13 2007
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Sun Jan  7 11:48:19 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE:
	[uf-discuss]previouslynon-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <00b101c72feb$cb397970$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <001b01c73294$c5ecaf40$2102fea9@Guides.local>

Joe Andrieu wrote:
> My own frustrations mostly stem from the fact that, IMNSHO, 
> far too many decisions are made by a small number of people 
> without any legitimate process in place for building or 
> judging consensus.  The addition of "place" for hCard is a 
> great example.  That was a significant change in semantics 
> and there was not a consenus about it.  Rather, those who 
> have the functional capability simply updated the wiki.
> 
> Brian responded to this earlier saying he felt it was 
> appropriate because it reflects common usage.  But that 
> really isn't what a standard is.  The problem before the 
> metric system was that every jurisdiction's common usage for 
> various measures was different. No interoperability.
> Same thing with timezones before standardization.  In fact, 
> microformats and the semantic web are ALL about creating 
> interoperability. For example, the restrictions on the 
> namespace are all geared to /forge/ a consensus standard 
> taxonomy.  If that "standard" can change at the drop of a few 
> emails, it really isn't much of a standard.
> 
> But we have neither quality versioning nor explicity 
> processes for approving and designating "official" microformats.
> 
> Everything is essentially at the whim of our fearless leaders.
> 
> There is a feeling that things are a bit autocratic, that if 
> a few people agree it?s a good thing, then nobody else's 
> opinion really matters.
>
> > When only one disruptive individual has problems with governance, 
> > rather than the community as a whole, then it tends to lead one to 
> > believe that the problem may be more with the individual 
> > than with the  community or the governance.
> 
> More than just Andy has expressed frustration. 
>
> Tantek, there is no governance for uF other than by cabal, 
> which historically has proven useful only in a limited scale. 
>  The alternative, of determining a means of governance, need 
> not create a heavy bureaucracy, in fact, it can be 
> liberating.  Frankly, a more decentralized approach would do 
> uF good. And that would require a small set of explicit 
> procedural standards and a huge release of authority.
> The obvious and/or na?ve bureacratic options could easily 
> create a mess of burdensome procedures, but there's no reason 
> we would have to be na?ve or choose the obvious.

I just wanted to mention that I *strongly* agree with Joe on his comments
that I included above.  It's those reasons and others[1] why I've lost most
of my initial enthusiasm for Microformats. FWIW.

-- 
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/

[1] http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blog/enthusiasmformicroformatspremature/



From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Sun Jan  7 12:17:49 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Sun Jan  7 12:17:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Validator
In-Reply-To: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>
Message-ID: <C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/7/07 9:45 AM, "Mark Jaroski" <mark@geekhive.net> wrote:

> Hi all,

Welcome to the list Mark!


> 
> I dunno if this question has been asked before; I only looked two months
> back.

http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_How_do_I_validate_my_microformated_conte
nt.3F

(just edited with more content from this email thread/reply also)


> But anyhow, is anybody working on a validator?

There isn't a formal validator yet for microformats, but it is on the
community to-do list - feel free to add your own specific requests/details
for a validator as well:

http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#for_all_microformats


> I've just started using
> ?formats on http://wikevent.org

First of all - very impressive.


Are you marking them up by hand?

If so, please add them to the respective Examples in the Wild sections/pages
on the wiki, e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild for
venues, and "hcalendar-" for events.


Or do you have a MediaWiki plugin that creates the microformats
automatically for venues and events?

In that case, please add your plugin (and Wikevent.org) to the respective
Implementations sections/pages on the wiki, e.g.
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implementations for venues, and
"hcalendar-" for events.


> and would love to be able to validate them.

Posting here, and adding to the examples/implementations sections/pages
accordingly will very often get folks from the community to take a look and
review them / validate them by hand for you.  For example, I found:

http://wikevent.org/en/San_Francisco/Canvas_Gallery

has an hCard for the Canvas Gallery - excellent!

Some minor problems:

1. <span class="addr"> should be <span class="adr">

2. <span class="street-address">1200 9th Ave, San Francisco, CA</span>

should be:

<span class="street-address">1200 9th Ave</span>,
<span class="locality">San Francisco</span>,
<span class="region">CA</span>

3. <span class="address-extra">9th Ave &amp; Lincoln in the Inner Sunset
Neighborhood, There is ample parking in our lot or within the Park</span>

should be

<span class="address-extra note">9th Ave &amp; Lincoln in the Inner Sunset
Neighborhood, There is ample parking in our lot or within the Park</span>

4. Include a "url" back to the Wikevent page itself so that folks that
import the hCard have an easy way to get back to the Wiki version to edit
it. E.g.

<a class="url" 
href="http://wikevent.org/en/San_Francisco/Canvas_Gallery">wikevent
venue</a>

5. For more suggestions see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring


The rest of it looked fine, and when I tried to import it with the
Technorati Contacts Feed service[1], it imported fine (except for the
address, due to the abovementioned bugs).

<http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/http://wikevent.org/en/San_Francisco/C
anvas_Gallery>

X2V / Technorati Contacts Feed service can often be used to make sure that
you've marked up your hCards correctly.  Similarly with events and the
Events Feed service[2].


The first event on that page has a few minor problems as well:

1. On the dtstart: title="2007-01-07T15:00:00Z-08:00"
should be
title="2007-01-07T15:00:00-08:00"

No "Z" required when a time zone offset is present.

2. Similarly with the dtend

3. Surround the details of the event with a <div class="description"> e.g.

<div class="description">
<p><a href="/wiki/en/index.php?title=Joanna_Barbera&amp;action=edit"
class="new" title="Joanna Barbera">Joanna Barbera</a> (<a
href="/wiki/en/index.php?title=Category:Italian&amp;action=edit" class="new"
title="Category:Italian">Italian</a> <a
href="/wiki/en/index.php?title=Category:Wine&amp;action=edit" class="new"
title="Category:Wine">Wine</a> <a href="/en/Category:Singer"
title="Category:Singer">Singer</a>)
</p><p>Daily Drink Specials (ALL DAY): $3 Bloody Mary?s, Margaritas and
Grolsch
</p>
</div>

4. Include the "price" info etc. in the description paragraphs as well
instead of simply adjacent to the end time.

5. Include a "url" back to the event itself on Wikevent so that folks that
import the hCalendar event have an easy way to get back to the Wiki version
to edit it. 

6. For more suggestions see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-authoring


The rest of that hCalendar event looked fine, and when I tried to import it
with the Technorati Events Feed service[2], it imported fine (except for the
time zone being wrong due to the extraneous "Z" as pointed out, and the
missing info).

<http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://wikevent.org/en/San_Francisco/Can
vas_Gallery>


Excellent work Mark, and welcome!

Thanks,

Tantek


[1] http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/
[2] http://feeds.technorati.com/events/


From microformats at kaply.com  Sun Jan  7 12:20:07 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Sun Jan  7 12:20:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible but in Operator extension)
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0701071220q761c9769g196e5f052ed4ebde@mail.gmail.com>

Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> I have used two includes, for location and summary, in the hCalendar of
> the first event on:
>
>        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/kidderminster/indoor.htm>
>
> (styles are in-line, only during development)
>
> but it's not recognised by neither Tails or Operator; the latter says
> its invalid, but gives a blank dialogue box when selected. Nor does the
> "Almost Universal" parser find the summary or location of that event.

The includes were something I just learned about and at the moment
they only work for vcards.

I will make a note that I need to generalize object usage for all vcards.

Thanks

Mike Kaply
From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com  Sun Jan  7 14:35:51 2007
From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy)
Date: Sun Jan  7 14:35:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
In-Reply-To: <8a52ddad0701031609p4520c9f4obefec35b93cc9b3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780701030252na2fe807j91c779eab09d420@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1C13019.2343%s-leary@tamu.edu>
	<8a52ddad0701031609p4520c9f4obefec35b93cc9b3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8a52ddad0701071435x3f2cd1c9i4112e19a4666de23@mail.gmail.com>

I am going to ask one more time:
Who should approve it to push it on Code section of microformats
page? I hope it deserve an honour to stand next to hCalendar creator?

-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com
From bewest at gmail.com  Sun Jan  7 15:43:49 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Sun Jan  7 15:43:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
In-Reply-To: <8a52ddad0701071435x3f2cd1c9i4112e19a4666de23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780701030252na2fe807j91c779eab09d420@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1C13019.2343%s-leary@tamu.edu>
	<8a52ddad0701031609p4520c9f4obefec35b93cc9b3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8a52ddad0701071435x3f2cd1c9i4112e19a4666de23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701071543r23cbf096r77b1522b2a74452c@mail.gmail.com>

Dmitry,
Sorry about that.  My work on the creators was 'approved' by Ryan
King.  I'm pretty sure he'll put it up there, but he's often busy.

Ben

On 1/7/07, Dmitry Baranovskiy <dmitry.baranovskiy@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am going to ask one more time:
> Who should approve it to push it on Code section of microformats
> page? I hope it deserve an honour to stand next to hCalendar creator?
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Dmitry Baranovskiy
> http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan  7 13:14:14 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jan  7 17:09:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hreflang (was: rel="tag")
Message-ID: <fRY9duimKWoFFwMn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


In message <4DF09948-4D82-477F-8585-00BCC12FA313@ryancannon.com>, Ryan
Cannon <ryan@ryancannon.com> writes

>I have yet, however, to encounter a site that uses the hreflang
>attribute to demarcate links to pages in different languages.


        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/>

(on the home page, there are no other links to non-English language
sites)

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan  7 13:14:35 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jan  7 17:09:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Receipt Microformat
Message-ID: <FB$7pHj7KWoFFwP8@pigsonthewing.org.uk>




In message
<69ff73b20701050820o50d78de4ud69cbdf7b399d14c@mail.gmail.com>, Martin
Owens <doctormo@gmail.com> writes

>TotalCost

>DeliveryCost

Others' comments not withstanding, those could use (and you should be
aware of) the proposed 'currency' microformat:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/currency>

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan  7 13:15:37 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jan  7 17:09:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible bug in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <e06e0e0b0701071220q761c9769g196e5f052ed4ebde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e06e0e0b0701071220q761c9769g196e5f052ed4ebde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ChP6hfj5LWoFFwsO@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<e06e0e0b0701071220q761c9769g196e5f052ed4ebde@mail.gmail.com>, Mike
Kaply <microformats@kaply.com> writes

[...]

>I will make a note that I need to generalize object usage for all vcards.

Thank you.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan  7 13:26:21 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jan  7 17:09:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Validator
In-Reply-To: <C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>
	<C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <rgegxDk9VWoFFwp7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>On 1/7/07 9:45 AM, "Mark Jaroski" <mark@geekhive.net> wrote:

>2. <span class="street-address">1200 9th Ave, San Francisco, CA</span>
>
>should be:
>
><span class="street-address">1200 9th Ave</span>,
><span class="locality">San Francisco</span>,
><span class="region">CA</span>

That last element should be:

        <abbr class="region" title="California">CA</abbr>

surely?

>4. Include a "url" back to the Wikevent page itself so that folks that
>import the hCard have an easy way to get back to the Wiki version to edit
>it. E.g.
>
><a class="url"
>href="http://wikevent.org/en/San_Francisco/Canvas_Gallery">wikevent
>venue</a>

Publishers should be aware that self-linking from a page, to itself,
causes accessibility issues.


Nice work Mark - I appreciate that these are early days for you, but
have you thought about:

   *    providing a tool for scraping exiting uFs into your site (for
        instance, I could submit the URL:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/diary/2007/01.htm>

        to such a service, and all the events would be "auto-magically"
        added to your wiki.

   *    a simple HTML form, to allow entry of text components, and out
        put wiki markup, either directly into the wiki, or for cut &
        paste into the wiki


-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan  7 13:28:10 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jan  7 17:09:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701070044k1aec06car55c1112b639bf90f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070105083635.GP31830@rezo.net>
	<cdc278e10701050056t28a10f00oa5fdc06b52bfaea5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2cMneviJjrnFFwBu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<cdc278e10701070044k1aec06car55c1112b639bf90f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jQbitqkqXWoFFwrp@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<cdc278e10701070044k1aec06car55c1112b639bf90f@mail.gmail.com>, Ciaran
McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>On 1/5/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> So the "workaround" at:
>>
>>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#Google_as_rel-tag_namespace>
>>
>> will not work?
>
>Not in a fully conformant parser, no.

OK, thanks, I'll withdraw it.

Odd - and worrying - that no-one picked up on it.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From mark at geekhive.net  Mon Jan  8 08:23:15 2007
From: mark at geekhive.net (Mark)
Date: Mon Jan  8 08:23:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Validator
In-Reply-To: <C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>
	<C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070108162315.GK28887@who.int>

Tantek ?elik wrote:
> On 1/7/07 9:45 AM, "Mark Jaroski" <mark@geekhive.net> wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> 
> Welcome to the list Mark!


Thanks!  And thanks so much for the detailed response. 

> Or do you have a MediaWiki plugin that creates the microformats
> automatically for venues and events?

It's an extension.  I'll publish on the Mediawiki extensions page as
soon as I've got the changes from your critique done, and have
written some documentation.

> In that case, please add your plugin (and Wikevent.org) to the respective
> Implementations sections/pages on the wiki, e.g.
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implementations for venues, and
> "hcalendar-" for events.

Thanks again for the kind words.  I'll try to get the changes done
tonight or tomorrow and post again here.

-mark

-- 
--
=================================================================
-- mark at geekhive dot net --
From drernie at opendarwin.org  Mon Jan  8 10:17:42 2007
From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar)
Date: Mon Jan  8 10:17:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: On emergent policy and self vs governance in common
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701060245x3b45b0ccgbb3edf4d12092a09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0701060245x3b45b0ccgbb3edf4d12092a09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2BED2F99-5070-4E27-957F-3E2C6E5DEA7A@opendarwin.org>

Hi Chris,

On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Chris Messina wrote:

>  I think the point is that anyone should be able to build out and see
> through the execution and development of a microformats, potentially
> entirely outside of this list, simply by religiously adhering to the
> principals by which we govern ourselves and allow ourselves to be
> governed.

I think this was a brilliant post, and I'm tempted to agree, but I'm  
not entirely sure what you're asking for!

I completely agree that we should allow -- nay, encourage --  
microformat-like discussions and proto-standards to emerge and prove  
their viability that don't qualify as "microformats" under the  
current Tantek-inspired definition.

However, my preference would be that they:

a) be developed outside this particular list
b) don't call themselves microformats

If you're okay with those two constraints, then you have my full  
support, but I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for.  What would  
make sense to me is to:

a) Promote the term "semantic HTML" for microformat-like specifications
b) Somebody volunteers to provide lists and wiki hosting services for  
alternate communities
     (this could even be microformats.org, under a different namespace)
c) Various individuals who have a concrete vision for non-microformat  
development -- and are prepared to enforce it! -- create communities  
on those alternate sites
d) Microformats.org creates a meta-discuss mailing list where  
governance and the evolving relationship to its rhizomatic cousins   
is "on-topic"

Is that in line with your vision?

-- Ernie P.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan  8 11:58:13 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan  8 12:37:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4Ykkf90VJqoFFwp6@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<6ca82b0f0701042021l680f338eq5ddd1acd9db4a914@mail.gmail.com>, Ben
Buchanan <microformats@200ok.com.au> writes

>I don't see a clear reason why ?tag=blah couldn't be an acceptable
>format.

On reflection, it seems to me that that's an "unpaved cowpath".

Unfortunately, Google search for "?tag=" finds many instances of "tag".
I wonder if another search engine might be more specific, or if someone
has a way to trawl for it in some Google-code [1] like way?


[1] <http://code.google.com/webstats/index.html>

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan  8 15:05:55 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan  8 15:54:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible bug in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>
	<TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <MwlpFtMT5soFFwN1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes

>Also, is there a way to concatenate values.
[...]
>(If not, I'll add that to the wiki as a proposal)

Done:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback#Concatenating_values>


In a secondary issue, I'm not sure how best to mark-up text within the
object.

For instance, I propose:

        <span id="summaryA" class="summary">
          Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting
        </span>

        <span id="summaryC>Fred Smith</span>


        <object data="#summaryA+ with +#summaryC" class="include">
        </object>

to give:

    Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting with Fred Smith

Should [space]with[space] be wrapped in something?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From ntoll at ntoll.org  Mon Jan  8 16:11:35 2007
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Mon Jan  8 16:31:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume and Job-Listing
Message-ID: <45A2DDB7.4080008@ntoll.org>

Hi,

I've recently been looking at the (related) hResume and Job-Listing
uFormats as I want to use uFormats for marking up information in an HR
application I am writing.

Put crudely, the standard (funnel) recruitment process is finding the
best match between a job listing's requirements (e.g. required skills,
experience and education level) and what candidate's have to offer (or
vice-versa if using the reverse funnel process). Obviously, hResume and
Job-Listing markup information on either "side" of this matching process.

Evidence from the many examples listed on the wiki for job-listings show
that recruitment officers often list within the job description the
desired skills AND an indication of skill level or experience (e.g. "At
least three years strong C#/ASP.NET with good knowledge of SQL.
Knowledge of nUnit would be an advantage.").

hResume already includes a section for skills but doesn't include a
means of describing levels of attainment  or experience (something also
mentioned on hResume's feedback and issues pages on the wiki). This is a
shame as it would be an *insanely useful* feature to be able to marry
hResume and the job-listing uFormat so they complement each other in
terms of skill definition.

How might one indicate more information about a skill? I've found
several examples:

Although not a job-site, I like Sourceforge.net's skill inventory
feature (that captures both a level and length of experience) within a
user's profile. This information is simply presented in a table with
columns for skill name, level attained and length of experience with
nothing "semantically" helpful to the likes of us.

Another example comes from the guys over at hr-xml.org. They obviously
have a different set of aims to microformats but reading their
specification is a fertile source for ideas. They encode what we'd call
"skills" as "competencies", an example of which is pasted below:

<Competency name="Communication Skills">
    <Competency name="Written Communication Skills">
        <CompetencyEvidence name="WRITTENTEST1-A"
dateOfIncident="1995-01-01" lastUsed="2000-01-01">
            <NumericValue minValue="3" maxValue="5"
description="SEP-equivalent Skill-Level Range">5</NumericValue>
        </CompetencyEvidence>
        <CompetencyWeight>
            <NumericValue minValue="0" maxValue="100">35</NumericValue>
        </CompetencyWeight>
    </Competency>
</Competency>

I also started thinking about re-using hReview as a means of indicating
skill level. This was quickly dropped as it doesn't quite fit although I
like the use of a rating scale 1-5 as a language independent means of
indicating level.

I mixed together ideas from these examples and (desiring something very
simple) initially got this:

<span class="competency"><a class="skill" rel="tag"
href="http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx">C#</a> -
<abbr title="4" class="rating">Expert</abbr></span>

Where the inner text of the abbr tag might be something like
"Basic","Competent","Strong","Expert" or "Guru" (or something similar in
the user's own language).

As for amount (duration) of experience, this will have to piggy back on
how the measurement uFormat ends up - but if I base my example on one
from the measure-brainstorming page on the wiki then the above example
transmogrifies into this:

<span class="competency"><a class="skill" rel="tag"
href="http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/default.aspx">C#</a> -
<abbr title="4" class="rating">Expert</abbr> (<span
class="duration"><abbr class="value" title="5">five</abbr> <abbr
class="unit" title="YR">years</abbr></span>)</span>

and should render like this: "C# - Expert (five years)"

Ideas, comments and suggestions?

Thanks for getting this far and being so patient with my first post! I
look forward to moving this forward...

Best wishes,

Nicholas

ntoll@ntoll.org

From absalom at iinet.net.au  Mon Jan  8 19:43:22 2007
From: absalom at iinet.net.au (absalom@iinet.net.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 19:43:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Use and abuse of rel tag
Message-ID: <1168314202.45a30f5acca74@mail.iinet.net.au>

Tantek made a few comments a while back that Wordpress abuses the rel tag. I'm a
little concerned by this as I'm midway through building lots of social
networking software around the XFN and rel relationships..

So I'd like an example of good use and abuse.. just so I know what not to do..

The other issue I'm facing is that I would like to combine rel="tag" and the XFN
rel relationships (e.g muse, met) in a way that only references 1 URI (the URI
of the XFN relationship), whilst still being recognised by something like
Technorati (rel="tag"). I'm basing part of my work on what has been demonstrated
at connections.webdirections.org, where the XFN relationship is advertised, but
unfortunately, it doesn't have any visibility outside of that domain, *and* it
requires two sets of tag schemas (XFN, plus a seperate tagging structure on each
user).

Is there any way of representing a unique URI inside two different rel
"structures" (XFN+tag) and still have it recognised by Technorati? 

Lawrence Meckan
Absalom Media
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Mon Jan  8 20:16:02 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Mon Jan  8 20:16:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701071543r23cbf096r77b1522b2a74452c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780701030252na2fe807j91c779eab09d420@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1C13019.2343%s-leary@tamu.edu>
	<8a52ddad0701031609p4520c9f4obefec35b93cc9b3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8a52ddad0701071435x3f2cd1c9i4112e19a4666de23@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ad71be30701071543r23cbf096r77b1522b2a74452c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701082016u1c4635bfy51aed9273d224113@mail.gmail.com>

Ryan's on vacation, AFAIK.

Dmitry, your schedule creator is very cool. Nice work. I think it
could use some massaging around the edges -- and hope that you
consider offering up your code, but nonetheless, a great effort.

I don't know if you've seen them, but there are a bunch of icons you
can also use:

http://microformats.org/wiki/icons

Chris

On 1/7/07, Benjamin West <bewest@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dmitry,
> Sorry about that.  My work on the creators was 'approved' by Ryan
> King.  I'm pretty sure he'll put it up there, but he's often busy.
>
> Ben
>
> On 1/7/07, Dmitry Baranovskiy <dmitry.baranovskiy@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am going to ask one more time:
> > Who should approve it to push it on Code section of microformats
> > page? I hope it deserve an honour to stand next to hCalendar creator?
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Dmitry Baranovskiy
> > http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Jan  9 00:51:54 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Jan  9 00:51:57 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible bug in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <MwlpFtMT5soFFwN1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>
	<TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<MwlpFtMT5soFFwN1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701090051l440dfaav99525d4d4519d7a0@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/8/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>         <object data="#summaryA+ with +#summaryC" class="include">
>         </object>

The @data should contain a URL, not data, the way you have here.  A
parser would end up looking for an element with ID 'summaryA+ with...'
etc.,

Not sure about an elegant solution, I'm afraid, you may be better off
just repeating the content.

-Ciaran
From siegfried at rorkvell.de  Tue Jan  9 01:36:31 2007
From: siegfried at rorkvell.de (Siegfried Gipp)
Date: Tue Jan  9 01:36:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="tag"
In-Reply-To: <Pcep+DL$BBoFFweA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <d52ba3070701031510s498d24d3mf5ba738b55adffd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10701040211u30f5e035m16d7e59a849f4665@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pcep+DL$BBoFFweA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <200701091036.31997.siegfried@rorkvell.de>

Hi,

there are two interesting side ideas around rel="tag".

First is using rel="DC.subject" for a very similar purpose, but where simply 
the content is the "tag".

Second idea is from Mike Schinkel: Include the complete path into the meta 
information, thus adding information about a topic hierarchy. So from the 
path you know that topic A is a subtopic of B which is a subtopic of C...

If you use the profile attribute it is possible to distinguish the two 
rel="tag" versions.

regards
Siegfried
From daniel.hilton at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 01:59:10 2007
From: daniel.hilton at gmail.com (Daniel Hilton)
Date: Tue Jan  9 01:59:14 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume and Job-Listing
In-Reply-To: <d422c2480701090144k3d8993cw9f163f28c232ca2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45A2DDB7.4080008@ntoll.org>
	<d422c2480701090144k3d8993cw9f163f28c232ca2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d422c2480701090159g788bad02o2cdc03c24dccec89@mail.gmail.com>

>
> and should render like this: "C# - Expert (five years)"
>
>

Hi Nicholas

In the UK, recent legislation has ruled that you can't discriminate on
age when advertising a post.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5326774.stm
for more info.

In a nutshell, you can't (or shouldn't according to the law) advertise
jobs based on years of experience but rather on skills and
competencies.
Thus your notion of rating a particular skill level is probably best.
Again in the UK the National Health Service(NHS) has recently gone
through a
period of evaluating every job role in it's organisation (3rd largest
employer in the world) and settled on having a system called the
Knowledge and
Skills framework, a large mapping of every role in the NHS to a new pay scale.

See http://www.skillsforhealth.org.uk/ksfcomps.php

for an example of  types of levels used.  I think the idea of having
some sort of levels are great, however I would worry down the line
about job spam, a problem already on Job sites, where recruitment
agencies post non-existent jobs to get CV's.

Hope that helps a bit,
cheers,
Dan
-- 
Dan Hilton
============================
DanHilton.co.uk
============================
From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jan  9 03:36:22 2007
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue Jan  9 03:36:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume and Job-Listing
In-Reply-To: <d422c2480701090159g788bad02o2cdc03c24dccec89@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45A2DDB7.4080008@ntoll.org>	<d422c2480701090144k3d8993cw9f163f28c232ca2d@mail.gmail.com>
	<d422c2480701090159g788bad02o2cdc03c24dccec89@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A37E36.2090102@ntoll.org>

Hi Dan,

I'm in the UK... :-) see comments in-line:

Daniel Hilton wrote:
>>
>> and should render like this: "C# - Expert (five years)"
>>
>>
>
> Hi Nicholas
>
> In the UK, recent legislation has ruled that you can't discriminate on
> age when advertising a post.
>
> See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5326774.stm
> for more info.
>
The law is, in fact, EU wide. This consideration crossed my mind when I
wrote my original email but I came to the following conclusion: the
Internet is international in scope and my impression is that uFormats
should mirror how real people use information rather than how
legislators in particular locations think information should be used. If
people need to mark-up years experience then they should be able to. We
just have to assume that HR depts in the EU obey the law.

That being said, the HR system for the Council of Europe (the
organisation that runs the EU's legal infrastructure such as the Court
of Human Rights) collects information like date-of-birth, years
experience and other such indicators of age. In fact, they have a
stipulation that the maximum age for applying for work is 65 (how do I
know this? I was contracted to work on this project and remember
reviewing the code that checks the applicant's dob during the validation
of the online application form!)
...
> In a nutshell, you can't (or shouldn't according to the law) advertise
> jobs based on years of experience but rather on skills and
> competencies.
> Thus your notion of rating a particular skill level is probably best.
> Again in the UK the National Health Service(NHS) has recently gone
> through a
> period of evaluating every job role in it's organisation (3rd largest
> employer in the world) and settled on having a system called the
> Knowledge and
> Skills framework, a large mapping of every role in the NHS to a new
> pay scale.
>
> See http://www.skillsforhealth.org.uk/ksfcomps.php
>
This is quite common in large state-sector organisations - the EU has
something similar as do LEAs (Local Education Authorities) in the UK.
They count as yet more evidence of "levels" based skill/competency markup.

> for an example of  types of levels used.  I think the idea of having
> some sort of levels are great, however I would worry down the line
> about job spam, a problem already on Job sites, where recruitment
> agencies post non-existent jobs to get CV's.
I think this is more a reflection on the ethics within recruitment
agencies rather than the capabilities of uFormats. I like how Feynman
describes this dilemma:

"...knowledge is an enabling power to do either good or bad - but it
does not carry instructions on how to use it.  Such power has evident
value - even though the power may be negated by what one does with it.

I learned a way of expressing this common human problem on a trip to
Honolulu.  In a Buddhist temple there, the man in charge explained a
little bit about the Buddhist religion for tourists, and then ended his
talk by telling them he had something to say to them that they would
*never* forget - and I have never forgotten it.  It was a proverb of the
Buddhist religion:/

/To every man is given the key to the gates of heaven; the same key
opens the gates of hell."

:-)
>
> Hope that helps a bit,
> cheers,
> Dan

From csyu77 at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 05:02:06 2007
From: csyu77 at gmail.com (Calvin Yu)
Date: Tue Jan  9 05:02:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible bug in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701090051l440dfaav99525d4d4519d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>
	<TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<MwlpFtMT5soFFwN1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<cdc278e10701090051l440dfaav99525d4d4519d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ba336a5d0701090502p6b40534aq70222a6add2b763@mail.gmail.com>

Another possibility would be value excerpting:
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting

On 1/9/07, Ciaran McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> wrote:
> On 1/8/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> >         <object data="#summaryA+ with +#summaryC" class="include">
> >         </object>
>
> The @data should contain a URL, not data, the way you have here.  A
> parser would end up looking for an element with ID 'summaryA+ with...'
> etc.,
>
> Not sure about an elegant solution, I'm afraid, you may be better off
> just repeating the content.
>
> -Ciaran
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 06:20:05 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Tue Jan  9 06:20:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Use and abuse of rel tag
In-Reply-To: <1168314202.45a30f5acca74@mail.iinet.net.au>
References: <1168314202.45a30f5acca74@mail.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <21e770780701090620l5c61e837tff3e7fd5ccf3e64d@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/9/07, absalom@iinet.net.au <absalom@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> The other issue I'm facing is that I would like to combine rel="tag" and the XFN
> rel relationships (e.g muse, met) in a way that only references 1 URI (the URI
> of the XFN relationship), whilst still being recognised by something like
> Technorati (rel="tag"). I'm basing part of my work on what has been demonstrated
> at connections.webdirections.org, where the XFN relationship is advertised, but
> unfortunately, it doesn't have any visibility outside of that domain, *and* it
> requires two sets of tag schemas (XFN, plus a seperate tagging structure on each
> user).
>
> Is there any way of representing a unique URI inside two different rel
> "structures" (XFN+tag) and still have it recognised by Technorati?

--- if we look at the webdirections site and select the person page
for John Allsopp:
http://connections.webdirections.org/people/16

At the bottom there is a list of people he knows and people that know
him. They are also links to the profile pages within the connections
site.

If you were to attempt to add XFN and rel-tag to the same 'a' element
you would get something like:
<a href="/people/1234567" rel="contact tag">Jane Doe</a>

While that is VALID rel-tag and XFN, what you are saying is that the
owner of the page "john allsopp" has the contact information for Jane
Doe, and the current page about JOHN ALLSOPP should be tagged with
'1234567'. I think you are intending to say the 'jane doe' page should
be tagged with '1234567'.

So Technorati and others will correctly index the page, but i don't
think this is what you intended.

If you want to associate tags with a LINK, then you should considered
using xFolk, or the more robust hReview. This allows you to 'review' a
URL (the review portion is actually optional), and then associate tags
to that URL along with XFN.

So (if i understand what you are trying to do) you will need multiple
'a' elements, one for the XFN relationship and then 0-many for the
tags about that link.

Do you have a specific page you are looking for mark-up help with? if
so please send the URL and we can have a more concrete discussion
about do's and don'ts

Thanks,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan  9 12:06:18 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:06:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging Tag-spaces
In-Reply-To: <F0859388-4A6A-46EF-9812-8EE03A2EB801@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <F0859388-4A6A-46EF-9812-8EE03A2EB801@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33B7E523-3149-4F2E-9508-39EF8B700949@technorati.com>

On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:13 AM, Ben Ward wrote:

> On my blog, all tagged entries link to my own local tag-space  
> (e.g. /journal/tags/nutcracker). What if, on the page for each  
> tags, I were to include:
>
> <a href="http://technorati.com/tags/nutcracker" rel="tag">?</a>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nutcracker" rel="tag">?</a>
>
> So my tag space is now itself tagged with the same tag name on two  
> external resources. Does this mean anything?

By "anything" do you mean "anything special other than just tagging  
another page on the web"? If that's what you're asking, then no.

-ryan

--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com




From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan  9 12:09:13 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:09:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard's and Heraldic names/titles?
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0612300037o4c3e2b9fycff963096497802b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84ce626f0612300037o4c3e2b9fycff963096497802b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51C92CE0-9085-44BA-A011-D1CED55C3986@technorati.com>

On Dec 30, 2006, at 12:37 AM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm not completely sure how this would be marked up using an hCard.
>
> In some parts of the world there exists a set of heraldic titles that
> are kind of treated as names.  (Such as "Sayyid", "Agha", "Mirza",
> etc.)
>
> For example, you might have...
>
> Sayyid Joe Blow
> Mirza John Doe
> Jane Agha Doe
>
> I was thinking that using the "title" might be appropriate.  But I'm
> not sure.  The usage of these are kind of a mix between a name and a
> title.
>
> Some people actually have these included as part of their legal name.
> But some don't, and instead treat it like a title or honorific title
> like "Dr" or "Sir".
>
> Using the honorific-prefix class name might be possible for "Sayyid"
> or "Mirza".  But it not possible for "Agha" (since it is NOT a
> prefix).  Also, the honorific-suffix class name is possible for "Agha
> either (since it is NOT a suffix).
>
> Anyone know how to mark this up in an hCard?

What about 'additional-name'?

-ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jan  9 13:28:39 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jan  9 15:12:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible bug in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701090051l440dfaav99525d4d4519d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>
	<TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<MwlpFtMT5soFFwN1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<cdc278e10701090051l440dfaav99525d4d4519d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PeRJOUFHkApFFwmK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <cdc278e10701090051l440dfaav99525d4d4519d7a0@mail.gmail.com>,
Ciaran McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>On 1/8/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>>         <object data="#summaryA+ with +#summaryC" class="include">
>>         </object>
>
>The @data should contain a URL, not data, the way you have here.

Thank you. Is that a requirement of HTML or the way include-pattern is
parsed?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jan  9 14:37:24 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jan  9 15:12:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator & AUMP bugs: .htm file name parsed as tag 
Message-ID: <9s5lCeKkkBpFFwy$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Based on:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/tag-test.htm>

which includes rel-tag links to both:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/site/links.htm#breadcrumb>

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/club/branches.htm>

Operator and the AUMP are both finding the tags

        links.htm

        branches.htm

and not

        site

        club

respectively.


I think that, in any case, a tag cannot have a period in it - is that
so? Perhaps there could be a "sanity check" for valid tags? Though I'm
not sure that there is a canonical specification for what is and isn't
valid...

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 15:14:34 2007
From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy)
Date: Tue Jan  9 15:14:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Conference Schedule Creator
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701082016u1c4635bfy51aed9273d224113@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780701030252na2fe807j91c779eab09d420@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1C13019.2343%s-leary@tamu.edu>
	<8a52ddad0701031609p4520c9f4obefec35b93cc9b3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8a52ddad0701071435x3f2cd1c9i4112e19a4666de23@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ad71be30701071543r23cbf096r77b1522b2a74452c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0701082016u1c4635bfy51aed9273d224113@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8a52ddad0701091514r39c656fjfd3d7a0d5af9b0e0@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Chris,
I will be happy if you tell me what kind of "massaging" is desirable. :)
Yes, my code could be used under CC Licence
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/

I've seen icons. Ufter all I have my little work on the same page as
well. I just don't cleary see where to put them on my creator. Any
suggestion?

Anyway I will update interface a little in next couple of days
according to some off-list feedback.
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 15:31:27 2007
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Tue Jan  9 15:31:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard's and Heraldic names/titles?
In-Reply-To: <51C92CE0-9085-44BA-A011-D1CED55C3986@technorati.com>
References: <84ce626f0612300037o4c3e2b9fycff963096497802b@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C92CE0-9085-44BA-A011-D1CED55C3986@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0701091531v6b599566kc63046b9614b47ed@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Ryan,

On 1/9/07, Ryan King <ryan@technorati.com> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 2006, at 12:37 AM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm not completely sure how this would be marked up using an hCard.
> >
> > In some parts of the world there exists a set of heraldic titles that
> > are kind of treated as names.  (Such as "Sayyid", "Agha", "Mirza",
> > etc.)
> >
> > For example, you might have...
> >
> > Sayyid Joe Blow
> > Mirza John Doe
> > Jane Agha Doe
> >
> > I was thinking that using the "title" might be appropriate.  But I'm
> > not sure.  The usage of these are kind of a mix between a name and a
> > title.
> >
> > Some people actually have these included as part of their legal name.
> > But some don't, and instead treat it like a title or honorific title
> > like "Dr" or "Sir".
> >
> > Using the honorific-prefix class name might be possible for "Sayyid"
> > or "Mirza".  But it not possible for "Agha" (since it is NOT a
> > prefix).  Also, the honorific-suffix class name is possible for "Agha
> > either (since it is NOT a suffix).
> >
> > Anyone know how to mark this up in an hCard?
>
> What about 'additional-name'?

Perhaps using both "additional-name" and "title" on them would be good
practice.  As in...

<span class="vcard ">
    <span class="fn n">
        <span class="title additional-name">Mirza</span>
        <span class="given-name">John</span>
        <span title="family-name">Doe</span>
    </span>
</span>

That kind of matches how people use things like that.


See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.

    charles @ reptile.ca
    supercanadian @ gmail.com

    developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan  9 15:41:45 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan  9 15:41:49 2007
Subject: Banning for meta-discusion [was RE: [uf-discuss]
	previouslynon-referenced in the spec"References"]
In-Reply-To: <00b101c72feb$cb397970$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
References: <00b101c72feb$cb397970$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <99C8C9D7-B06C-4263-B5EA-F027C3E3CE7C@technorati.com>

On Jan 4, 2007, at 2:33 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote:
> Tantek, there is no governance for uF other than by cabal, which
> historically has proven useful only in a limited scale.  The
> alternative, of determining a means of governance, need not create a
> heavy bureaucracy, in fact, it can be liberating.  Frankly, a more
> decentralized approach would do uF good. And that would require a  
> small
> set of explicit procedural standards and a huge release of authority.
> The obvious and/or na?ve bureacratic options could easily create a  
> mess
> of burdensome procedures, but there's no reason we would have to be
> na?ve or choose the obvious.

FWIW, though it isn't obvious, we've been working on distributing the  
administration of microformats.org. Much of this has happened rather  
quietly on purpose, so that people can ease their way into more  
responsibility and work as their comfort and confidence dictates.

-ryan
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Wed Jan 10 03:31:13 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Wed Jan 10 03:31:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging Tag-spaces
In-Reply-To: <F0859388-4A6A-46EF-9812-8EE03A2EB801@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <F0859388-4A6A-46EF-9812-8EE03A2EB801@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701100331j3a24fbdcwf13876b91b9482db@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/24/06, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> So my tag space is now itself tagged with the same tag name on two
> external resources. Does this mean anything?

The URL establishes which tagging authority the tag is from.  Whether
a parser looks at that is left up to them - just the tag itself will
be enough for many uses.

One note on Wikipedia as a tagging authority, the spec says that the
destination page "is required to be a tag space (a place that collates
or defines tags)", which things like Wikipedia only are if you squint
a bit.

I think the use of this sort of site stems from rel-tag being applied
to more generic 'categorisation' tasks in other uFs, where the user
might not have a tagging index set up.  It's worth considering whether
the wording of the spec should be changed IMO.

-Ciaran McNulty
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Wed Jan 10 03:37:13 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Wed Jan 10 03:37:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator & AUMP bugs: .htm file name parsed as tag
In-Reply-To: <9s5lCeKkkBpFFwy$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <9s5lCeKkkBpFFwy$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701100337t2deb0c60p65997e4e29fdad28@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/9/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> Based on:
>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/tag-test.htm>
> which includes rel-tag links to both:
>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/site/links.htm#breadcrumb>
>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/club/branches.htm>
> Operator and the AUMP are both finding the tags
>         links.htm
>         branches.htm

This is the correct behaviour, as they are the last section of the
URL's path[1].  You might want to look at changing it to
/site/links/index.html and then omitting the latter in your hyperlink,
if you're not able to set up rewrite rules etc.

> I think that, in any case, a tag cannot have a period in it - is that
> so? Perhaps there could be a "sanity check" for valid tags? Though I'm
> not sure that there is a canonical specification for what is and isn't
> valid...

The spec explicitly mentions encoding in Unicode chars[2] so I don't
think there's any inherent limitation on which characters can be in a
tag.

In fact, I'd say that this should be something the tagging index
should be looking after (i.e. the uF is agnostic but
westmidlandbirdclub.com can impose their own rules).

-Ciaran McNulty

 [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Tag_spaces
 [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Encoding_issues
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Wed Jan 10 03:42:53 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Wed Jan 10 03:42:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar include: check,
	please (inc. possible bug in Operator extension)
In-Reply-To: <PeRJOUFHkApFFwmK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <ltyzyQIMfAoFFwJ2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<ba336a5d0701061511gde8fb76va0901e4f9f60bd47@mail.gmail.com>
	<TOZOK2WiAEoFFwsC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<MwlpFtMT5soFFwN1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<cdc278e10701090051l440dfaav99525d4d4519d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<PeRJOUFHkApFFwmK@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701100342t745d50b4l41af3a164169cda@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/9/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> Thank you. Is that a requirement of HTML or the way include-pattern is
> parsed?

It's defined in HTML, but I should have said uri rather than url,uri
being a superset of url.  The data attribute of object [1] should
contain a uri [2], i.e. an identifier for the place the data should
come from.

-Ciaran McNulty

  [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/objects.html#adef-data
  [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#type-uri
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Wed Jan 10 03:47:45 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Wed Jan 10 03:47:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator & AUMP bugs: .htm file name parsed as tag
In-Reply-To: <9s5lCeKkkBpFFwy$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <9s5lCeKkkBpFFwy$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701100347n5236c2aahe9af9045ba7da193@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/9/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Based on:
>
>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/tag-test.htm>
>
> which includes rel-tag links to both:
>
>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/site/links.htm#breadcrumb>
>
>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/club/branches.htm>
>
> Operator and the AUMP are both finding the tags
>
>         links.htm
>
>         branches.htm
>
> and not
>
>         site
>
>         club
>
> respectively.
>
>
> I think that, in any case, a tag cannot have a period in it - is that
> so? Perhaps there could be a "sanity check" for valid tags? Though I'm
> not sure that there is a canonical specification for what is and isn't
> valid...

I'm pretty sure I'm doing the right thing here:
- the last path component [1]
- ignore trailing slashes [2]

I'd prefer to minimize the the number of rules that are applied to
what can be valid within a tag and assume that the tagspace itself
defines this, which lets the future be not unnecessarily be
restricted.

Personally, but not off topic, when I create web pages I prefer never
to show the extension for HTML content, roughly inspired by this [3]

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Abstract
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Tag_Spaces
[3] http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
From xymox12 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 10 04:02:18 2007
From: xymox12 at hotmail.com (EC)
Date: Wed Jan 10 04:02:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
Message-ID: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>

Hi there,

I notice the site Theatre Studies: European Theatre
(http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/) has been placed in the problem
section of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild due to
the use of inline style (style="display:none") used within an img tag.

Here is the code in question:
<span class="vcard">
<img style="display:none"
src="http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/images/staff/scolvin.jpg"
alt="Sarah Colvin" class="photo" />
<span class="honorific-prefix">Professor </span>
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="fn">Sarah Colvin</span><br />
Email: <a href="mailto:sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk"
class="email">sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk</a>
</span>

I am not sure why this has been done as:
A) the img is part a hCard and not an hCalender, although both exist on the
page
B) using a correctly formatted css inline markup to hide the img from the
browser renderers cannot, surely, conflict with  microformat semantic
markup. Having read the brainstorming hCard FAQ I initially used  <span
style="display:none"></span> around the img tag - however I see no reason in
this case to add the extra markup around the img tag. ( The is the future
'Proposed
Additions'(http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Use_of_CSS_compute
d_styles_instead_of_HTML_default_styles) but this is for text formating, as
far as I can see, so it wouldn't interfere with an img file getting parsed
correctly.)

Using the Tails (0.3.6) Firefox add-on correctly parses the microformat
content on this page including the image.

Can anyone explain why the inline css style (display:none) cannot co-exist
(ignoring the benefits of using external style sheets rather than inline
css) with the microformat semantic markup. I'm probably missing something
obvious here, so thanks for any advice. 

Cheers

Euan

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 10 11:52:23 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 10 12:50:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator & AUMP bugs: .htm file name parsed as tag
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701100337t2deb0c60p65997e4e29fdad28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9s5lCeKkkBpFFwy$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<cdc278e10701100337t2deb0c60p65997e4e29fdad28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9O9FKzU3PUpFFwA0@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<cdc278e10701100337t2deb0c60p65997e4e29fdad28@mail.gmail.com>, Ciaran
McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>On 1/9/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> Based on:
>>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/tag-test.htm>
>> which includes rel-tag links to both:
>>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/site/links.htm#breadcrumb>
>>         <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/club/branches.htm>
>> Operator and the AUMP are both finding the tags
>>         links.htm
>>         branches.htm
>
>This is the correct behaviour, as they are the last section of the
>URL's path[1].

Sorry - my misunderstanding. Though I have to say that's not readily
clear from the examples/ FAQ on the 'wiki'.

>  You might want to look at changing it to
>/site/links/index.html and then omitting the latter in your hyperlink,
>if you're not able to set up rewrite rules etc.

Thanks, but that's not suitable for the use I had in mind.

>> I think that, in any case, a tag cannot have a period in it - is that
>> so? Perhaps there could be a "sanity check" for valid tags? Though I'm
>> not sure that there is a canonical specification for what is and isn't
>> valid...
>
>The spec explicitly mentions encoding in Unicode chars[2] so I don't
>think there's any inherent limitation on which characters can be in a
>tag.

Noted, thanks.


-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 10 12:04:21 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 10 12:50:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Tagging Tag-spaces
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701100331j3a24fbdcwf13876b91b9482db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F0859388-4A6A-46EF-9812-8EE03A2EB801@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<cdc278e10701100331j3a24fbdcwf13876b91b9482db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7uREC4VFbUpFFwDy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<cdc278e10701100331j3a24fbdcwf13876b91b9482db@mail.gmail.com>, Ciaran
McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>One note on Wikipedia as a tagging authority, the spec says that the
>destination page "is required to be a tag space (a place that collates
>or defines tags)", which things like Wikipedia only are if you squint
>a bit.

Such use of Wikipedia is explicitly allowed by the 'spec'.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 10 12:09:00 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 10 12:50:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator & AUMP bugs: .htm file name parsed as tag
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701100347n5236c2aahe9af9045ba7da193@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9s5lCeKkkBpFFwy$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<21e523c20701100347n5236c2aahe9af9045ba7da193@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <N+3JmxWcfUpFFwF7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e523c20701100347n5236c2aahe9af9045ba7da193@mail.gmail.com>, David
Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> writes

>Personally, but not off topic, when I create web pages I prefer never
>to show the extension for HTML content

If I were creating the site from scratch, today, that's how I would do
it.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 01:36:04 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Jan 11 01:36:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/01/07, EC <xymox12@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I notice the site Theatre Studies: European Theatre
> (http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/) has been placed in the problem
> section of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild due to
> the use of inline style (style="display:none") used within an img tag.
>
> Here is the code in question:
> <span class="vcard">
> <img style="display:none"
> src="http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/images/staff/scolvin.jpg"
> alt="Sarah Colvin" class="photo" />
> <span class="honorific-prefix">Professor </span>
> <span style="font-weight:bold" class="fn">Sarah Colvin</span><br />
> Email: <a href="mailto:sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk"
> class="email">sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk</a>
> </span>
>
> I am not sure why this has been done as:
> A) the img is part a hCard and not an hCalender, although both exist on the
> page
> B) using a correctly formatted css inline markup to hide the img from the
> browser renderers cannot, surely, conflict with  microformat semantic
> markup. Having read the brainstorming hCard FAQ I initially used  <span
> style="display:none"></span> around the img tag - however I see no reason in
> this case to add the extra markup around the img tag. ( The is the future
> 'Proposed
> Additions'(http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Use_of_CSS_compute
> d_styles_instead_of_HTML_default_styles) but this is for text formating, as
> far as I can see, so it wouldn't interfere with an img file getting parsed
> correctly.)
>
> Using the Tails (0.3.6) Firefox add-on correctly parses the microformat
> content on this page including the image.
>
> Can anyone explain why the inline css style (display:none) cannot co-exist
> (ignoring the benefits of using external style sheets rather than inline
> css) with the microformat semantic markup. I'm probably missing something
> obvious here, so thanks for any advice.
>
> Cheers
>
> Euan

Hi Euan,

I've looked at this twice now and I can't see an obvious reason for
the hCard to be incorrect.  There is on-going debate on whether hiding
information is a good or bad idea, but the actual mark-up you've used
is correct and I've no trouble at all parsing your card in Tails,
Operator, etc.

If you look at hcard-issues [1] you'll find discussions on negative
impacts of hiding entire cards, but not specifically hiding a single
part of it.  Afterall, if the photo of your card was skipped, it would
still be a valid hCard without it.

You should carefully consider whether you want to hide the photo of
your card, and whether you want to do this inline especially.

Anyone else like to chime in?  I'm not totally sure here.

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From jonathan.williams at nyu.edu  Thu Jan 11 09:12:55 2007
From: jonathan.williams at nyu.edu (Jonathan Williams)
Date: Thu Jan 11 09:12:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>

On Jan 11, 2007, at 4:36 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

> I've looked at this twice now and I can't see an obvious reason for
> the hCard to be incorrect.  There is on-going debate on whether hiding
> information is a good or bad idea, but the actual mark-up you've used
> is correct and I've no trouble at all parsing your card in Tails,
> Operator, etc.

Hi, I'm one of the people butting heads over this right now on the  
wiki as my hCard has a number of hidden fields. Just to clarify that  
the original issue (and the issue with my data) is over the hiding of  
individual fields.

I am of the opinion that field hiding via a class is ok, but via an  
inline style is inappropriate as if some naive hCard consuming  
application preserved tag attributes blindly (for some reason), this  
would live on. However, hcard-brainstorming#CSS_Styles seems to allow  
hiding fields in this way. As for hiding entire cards, hcard-examples- 
in-wild is full of them.

I have gotten a bit frustrated with the microformats.org process  
throughout this as people flagging my format as problematic have  
neglected to provide a justification for disallowing field hiding or  
a reference to a previous discussion of this issue. I hope that in  
the future we will have better process on the wiki.

--
Jonathan Williams
NYU Steinhardt
jonathan.williams@nyu.edu
+1 212 998 5308
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 09:44:09 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Thu Jan 11 09:44:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701110944o3813f371m422ff0e80493a360@mail.gmail.com>

>From Ryan Cannon on Dec 18th on the wiki:

"Is the root element "hCite" or "citation". Let me root for "citation"
as that semantically describes the content--similar to hCard's root
class of "vcard"."

I agree, 'citation' is clearer - can we vote on this?

If we get a quorum, I'll edit the wiki examples to reflect the decision.

-mike
-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 11 11:16:34 2007
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Thu Jan 11 11:16:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
Message-ID: <940724.67240.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


>----- Original Message ----
>From: Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com>
>
>I agree, 'citation' is clearer - can we vote on this?

+ 1 for citation

 
~ Tim

tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com





 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
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From josh at stonecottage.com  Thu Jan 11 20:02:19 2007
From: josh at stonecottage.com (josh lucas)
Date: Thu Jan 11 20:02:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
Message-ID: <C4D1A638-4E92-4625-8B27-6F21DDB0F4E1@stonecottage.com>

Hiya -

With Tantek coming down to SoCal at the end of the month, I'd like to  
propose a get-together for people here with an interest in  
Microformats.  I work for EarthLink in the Pasadena office and I'm  
fairly positive we could use one of our conference rooms if needed.

Of course, it might be a bit less formal to meet somewhere more  
social, a la with food and drink.  I'm open to any suggestions.

Thanks.


josh
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Thu Jan 11 20:21:53 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Thu Jan 11 20:21:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <940724.67240.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C1CC4CC4.84E06%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/11/07 11:16 AM, "Tim White" <tjameswhite@yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com>
>> 
>> I agree, 'citation' is clearer - can we vote on this?
> 
> + 1 for citation

-1 for citation, it is too generic for a root class name.

I've been trying to capture the methodology used to date for naming in
microformats here:

http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles

I started to write a few words on microformats root class names in
particular here:

http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles#Unique_Root_Class_Names

Unfortunately most of the actual methodology content for root class names in
particular is captured in my brain dump of hCard parsing here:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#root_class_name


There is some history in the mailing list on this as well, but as is the
case with email lists, it is difficult to find/search out.

If you look at other "established" / adopted microformats, you'll see that
they have fairly unique-ish root class names as well.

hCalendar - vevent, vcalendar (taken from RFC2445)
hReview - hreview (by pattern extension)
xFolk - xfolkentry (I would have picked just 'xfolk' today, not sure why we
went with xfolkentry)
hListing proposal - hlisting

I believe when Rohit Khare first proposed coming up with a citation
microformat back in 2005 May at the WWW2005 conference in Tokyo, he used
"hBib" or "hCite" (I don't quite remember, perhaps Rohit will see this and
speak up) as a candidate name for the microformat.

Thus here is another suggestion, based on what I remember of Rohit's idea,
for the root class name for the citation microformat:


hcite



Thanks,

Tantek

From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 23:26:14 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Thu Jan 11 23:26:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <C4D1A638-4E92-4625-8B27-6F21DDB0F4E1@stonecottage.com>
References: <C4D1A638-4E92-4625-8B27-6F21DDB0F4E1@stonecottage.com>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701112326t330064f3m4eb5da619b745c9d@mail.gmail.com>

I'd drive up from San Diego to meet up with microformats folks - when?

-mike

On 1/11/07, josh lucas <josh@stonecottage.com> wrote:
> Hiya -
>
> With Tantek coming down to SoCal at the end of the month, I'd like to
> propose a get-together for people here with an interest in
> Microformats.  I work for EarthLink in the Pasadena office and I'm
> fairly positive we could use one of our conference rooms if needed.
>
> Of course, it might be a bit less formal to meet somewhere more
> social, a la with food and drink.  I'm open to any suggestions.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> josh
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From john at westciv.com  Fri Jan 12 00:28:34 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Fri Jan 12 00:31:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <C1CC4CC4.84E06%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <C1CC4CC4.84E06%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <8EB8C845-DE59-4CB5-BB7A-6EB97588568B@westciv.com>

Tantek,

> microformat back in 2005 May at the WWW2005 conference in Tokyo, he  
> used
> "hBib" or "hCite" (I don't quite remember, perhaps Rohit will see  
> this and
> speak up) as a candidate name for the microformat

it was hBib IIRC

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher
Web Directions North, Vancouver Feb 6-10 :: http:// 
north.webdirections.org


From fberriman at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 01:38:39 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Fri Jan 12 01:38:44 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/01/07, Jonathan Williams
> I have gotten a bit frustrated with the microformats.org process
> throughout this as people flagging my format as problematic have
> neglected to provide a justification for disallowing field hiding or
> a reference to a previous discussion of this issue. I hope that in
> the future we will have better process on the wiki.

That's perfectly fair enough.  I think that those that move an item
into the "examples with problems" area should do so and *must* include
either an explanation of what the issue is (and ideally a resolution
for the issue) and/or a link to the relevant discussion or explanation
on the problem.

(So, if anyone has moved things, would they be so kind as to maybe go
back and jot down why they moved it, please?)

It's difficult for someone else to come along later and figure out why
it was moved, otherwise.


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 12 03:56:19 2007
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Fri Jan 12 03:56:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
Message-ID: <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> Tantek said:

>-1 for citation, it is too generic for a root class name.
>If you look at other "established" / adopted microformats, you'll see
>that
>they have fairly unique-ish root class names as well.
>
>hCalendar - vevent, vcalendar (taken from RFC2445)
>hReview - hreview (by pattern extension)
>xFolk - xfolkentry (I would have picked just 'xfolk' today, not sure
>why we
>went with xfolkentry)
>hListing proposal - hlisting


>Thus here is another suggestion, based on what I remember of Rohit's
>idea,
>for the root class name for the citation microformat:
>
>hcite
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tantek



How about hCitation then? Like the others mention, you know its a format for citations. I could live with hCite as well...

... though if I recall, at one point there was some hCite work going on which was different from the citation efforts. The two were intermingled until Ryan (I believe) sorted out the wiki pages giving us the current citation discussion pages. Has that been merged/renamed?


+1 hCitation
0/+1 hCite
-1 hBib

~Tim




 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
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From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan 12 01:20:11 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jan 12 04:06:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Fwd: RFC 4770 on vCard Extensions for Instant
	Messaging (IM)
Message-ID: <HrSbzIHLL1pFFwUA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>



FYI:


>A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.
>
>
>         RFC 4770
>
>         Title:      vCard Extensions for Instant Messaging
>                     (IM)
>         Author:     C. Jennings, J. Reschke, Ed.
>         Status:     Standards Track
>         Date:       January 2007
>         Mailbox:    fluffy@cisco.com,
>                     julian.reschke@greenbytes.de
>         Pages:      7
>         Characters: 11077
>         Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None
>
>         I-D Tag:    draft-jennings-impp-vcard-08.txt
>
>         URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4770.txt
>
>This document describes an extension to vCard to support Instant
>Messaging (IM) and Presence Protocol (PP) applications.  IM and PP
>are becoming increasingly common ways of communicating, and users
>want to save this contact information in their address books.  It
>allows a URI that is associated with IM or PP to be specified inside
>a vCard.  [STANDARDS TRACK]
>
>This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.
>
>STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
>protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and
>suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the
>Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization
>state and status of this protocol.  Distribution of this memo is
>unlimited.
>
>This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.
>Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list
>should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG.  Requests to be
>added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should
>be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.
>
>Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending
>an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body
>
>help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:
>
>         To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG
>         Subject: getting rfcs
>
>         help: ways_to_get_rfcs
>
>Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
>author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Unless
>specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
>unlimited distribution.
>
>Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
>RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
>Authors, for further information.
>
>
>The RFC Editor Team
>USC/Information Sciences Institute
>
>...
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>IETF-Announce mailing list
>IETF-Announce@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce



-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From ross.singer at library.gatech.edu  Fri Jan 12 04:43:24 2007
From: ross.singer at library.gatech.edu (Ross Singer)
Date: Fri Jan 12 04:43:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <C1CC4CC4.84E06%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <940724.67240.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C1CC4CC4.84E06%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <23b83f160701120443o20c9a0au7bd365a8c8136068@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:

> > + 1 for citation
>
> -1 for citation, it is too generic for a root class name.
>

Agreed, I don't like 'citation'.

hCitation or hCite would be fine
-1 on hBib

-Ross.

From hober0 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 10:13:34 2007
From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor)
Date: Fri Jan 12 10:03:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: LA Meetup, end of the month?
References: <C4D1A638-4E92-4625-8B27-6F21DDB0F4E1@stonecottage.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701112326t330064f3m4eb5da619b745c9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86tzywnmep.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org>

> I'd drive up from San Diego to meet up with microformats folks - when?

Hmm. If there's a car heading up from San Diego, I'd love to tag along!


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
hober0@gmail.com

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan 12 11:07:41 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jan 12 11:14:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAfqpzI9x9pFFwW7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Tim White
<tjameswhite@yahoo.com> writes

>How about hCitation then? Like the others mention, you know its a
>format for citations. I could live with hCite as well...

hCite says as much as hCitation, in fewer characters.

        hCite           +1
        hCitation        0
        hBib            -1

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 13:11:51 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Fri Jan 12 13:11:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <DAfqpzI9x9pFFwW7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<DAfqpzI9x9pFFwW7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/12/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Tim White
> <tjameswhite@yahoo.com> writes
>
>
> >How about hCitation then? Like the others mention, you know its a
> >format for citations. I could live with hCite as well...
>
> hCite says as much as hCitation, in fewer characters.
>
>         hCite           +1
>         hCitation        0
>         hBib            -1
>

Noting the points about case sensitivity in hCard-parsing [1] that
Tantek referred to - are the people who are voting for "hCite"
intending the capital C? I prefer the "hcite" capitalization.

After reading Tantek's points, I vote:
-1 'citation'
-1 'hbib'
-1 'hcitation'
+1 'hcite'

cheers,
-mike

[1]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#root_class_name

PS, why the 'h' - is it an upside-down ?, or does it stand for 'html'?
-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/

From ryan at ryancannon.com  Fri Jan 12 14:05:23 2007
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Fri Jan 12 14:05:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <200701121804.l0CI4DTB020188@microformats.org>
References: <200701121804.l0CI4DTB020188@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <EF5A304C-2A15-4C90-BEE0-A0ACAFEBE593@ryancannon.com>

On 1/11/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:

>>> + 1 for citation
>>
>> -1 for citation, it is too generic for a root class name.
>>

Makes sense; I'll withdraw any vote for `citation`.

The pedant in me says that "cite" is a verb and not really
appropriate to label something that is a noun. The poet in
me likes the way hcite rolls off of the tongue. hbib offends
both sensibilities.

+ 1 hcite
- 1 hcitation
- 1 hbib

-- 
Ryan Cannon

Interactive Developer
MSI Student, School of Information
University of Michigan
http://RyanCannon.com


From hober0 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 15:07:24 2007
From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor)
Date: Fri Jan 12 14:57:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [citation] citation root element
References: <200701121804.l0CI4DTB020188@microformats.org>
	<EF5A304C-2A15-4C90-BEE0-A0ACAFEBE593@ryancannon.com>
Message-ID: <86ejpz3kur.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org>

> The pedant in me says that "cite" is a verb and not really
> appropriate to label something that is a noun.

IIRC, this is a usage difference between en-US and en-GB, though I can't
remember which one takes which position in this case.


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
hober0@gmail.com

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan 12 13:57:14 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:10:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>
References: <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<DAfqpzI9x9pFFwW7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <vMdhKHM6QAqFFw7T@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>, Michael
McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> writes

>are the people who are voting for "hCite"
>intending the capital C?

Not me:

                hCite = uF name
                hcite = root class name

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan 12 15:04:33 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:10:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>, Frances
Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes

>(So, if anyone has moved things, would they be so kind as to maybe go
>back and jot down why they moved it, please?)

In this case, that was done:

<http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=11700&oldid=11444>

more than once:

<http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=12279&oldid=12224#New_Examples>


Note that the former diff also includes the addition of the text:

        Entries may be moved here if there's a problem with the way
        hCards are used on the page concerned. If the page is yours, and
        you want to improve it, see the hCard FAQ, or raise any queries
        on hCard Issues or the mailing list, where people will be happy
        to help you.

while part of the latter edit's summary is teh (necessarily brief):

        read hcard-example1-steps notes

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From jonathan.williams at nyu.edu  Fri Jan 12 15:57:43 2007
From: jonathan.williams at nyu.edu (Jonathan C Williams)
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:57:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
	<09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>

On Jan 12, 2007, at 6:04 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> Note that the former diff also includes the addition of the text:
>
>         Entries may be moved here if there's a problem with the way
>         hCards are used on the page concerned. If the page is  
> yours, and
>         you want to improve it, see the hCard FAQ, or raise any  
> queries
>         on hCard Issues or the mailing list, where people will be  
> happy
>         to help you.
>
> while part of the latter edit's summary is teh (necessarily brief):
>
>         read hcard-example1-steps notes

The issue wasn't about DRY; it was about simply hiding an adr section  
in the hCard. I was unable to find a reference to hiding field being  
considered "bad", nor was the topic broached when I pointed this out.  
I'll ask again:

**Why** is it considered harmful to hide elements?

--
Jonathan Williams
NYU Steinhardt
jonathan.williams@nyu.edu
+1 212 998 5308
From scott at randomchaos.com  Fri Jan 12 16:31:02 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Fri Jan 12 16:31:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden elements considered harmful (Was: Inline style
	conflict?)
In-Reply-To: <B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
	<09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <2D0130F2-F9F1-4593-BCBA-E909BD3DEE15@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 12, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Jonathan C Williams wrote:

> **Why** is it considered harmful to hide elements?

In general: hiding elements only hides them from humans, and leaves  
the content more accessible for machines than humans.  Microformats  
are for humans first.  For publishers: hidden elements are less  
likely to be kept up-to-date.  For parsers: hidden elements are more  
likely to contain spam.

Peace,
Scott

From john at westciv.com  Fri Jan 12 17:22:46 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Fri Jan 12 17:24:02 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
	<09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <E602E830-EDC6-4DB6-8FA7-326490A685E1@westciv.com>

Jonathan
On 13/01/2007, at 10:57 AM, Jonathan C Williams wrote:

> **Why** is it considered harmful to hide elements?

I think the fate of the meta element (unused by any search engine)  
pretty much demonstrates the difficult with invisible meta data

j
From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 13 05:35:29 2007
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Sat Jan 13 05:35:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
Message-ID: <372486.6201.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>In message
><d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>, Michael
>McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> writes
>
>>are the people who are voting for "hCite"
>>intending the capital C?
>
>Not me:
>
>                hCite = uF name
>                hcite = root class name
>

I concur with Andy. I was refereeing to hCite as the name.

Seems we are reaching consensus on hcite as the root. 

+1 hcite

However, I still have my original question -- at one point there were "cite" and "citation" explorations going on. I believe the "cite" was related to blog posting (citing one post in another). Has this been renamed?

 
~ Tim

<a href="http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com</a>





 
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling? 
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/

From mikeschinkel at gmail.com  Sat Jan 13 06:47:44 2007
From: mikeschinkel at gmail.com (Mike Schinkel)
Date: Sat Jan 13 06:47:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden elements considered harmful (Was: Inline
	styleconflict?)
In-Reply-To: <2D0130F2-F9F1-4593-BCBA-E909BD3DEE15@randomchaos.com>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl><e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com><AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu><e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com><09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk><B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
	<2D0130F2-F9F1-4593-BCBA-E909BD3DEE15@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c73721$c91fc760$0702a8c0@Guides.local>

Scott Reynen wrote:
> In general: hiding elements only hides them from humans, and 
> leaves the content more accessible for machines than humans.  
> Microformats are for humans first.  For publishers: hidden 
> elements are less likely to be kept up-to-date.  

Counterpoint:  For data generated from a database where the data is visible
elsewhere, this becomes a specious argument.

Scott Reynen wrote:
> For parsers: 
> hidden elements are more likely to contain spam.

John Allsopp wrote:
> I think the fate of the meta element (unused by any search 
> engine) pretty much demonstrates the difficult with invisible 
> meta data

Counterpoint: These are specious arguments in the context of metadata that
is more tightly constrained and of the type that would provide spammers
little or no benefit. For example, I am not aware of spammers using <LINK>
elements yet <LINK> elements are invisible metadata that are used
appropriately on the web today.

It really makes more sense to look at the use-case rather than to issue a
blanket edit of prohibition.  FWIW.

-- 
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
"It never ceases to amaze how many people will proactively debate away
attempts to improve the web..."



From josh at stonecottage.com  Sat Jan 13 07:24:07 2007
From: josh at stonecottage.com (josh lucas)
Date: Sat Jan 13 07:24:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701112326t330064f3m4eb5da619b745c9d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C4D1A638-4E92-4625-8B27-6F21DDB0F4E1@stonecottage.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701112326t330064f3m4eb5da619b745c9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18D28369-3001-478A-932F-F0FBADB5640C@stonecottage.com>

Part of it depends on Tantak's schedule just a bit since it would be  
great if he could attend while he was down here.  We can definitely  
have it at EarthLink and then move somewhere with food and drink  
afterwards if that is agreeable.

How about I throw out a date and we can move on from there?  I'm  
thinking Tuesday, January 30.


josh


On Jan 11, 2007, at 11:26 PM, Michael McCracken wrote:

> I'd drive up from San Diego to meet up with microformats folks - when?
>
> -mike
>
> On 1/11/07, josh lucas <josh@stonecottage.com> wrote:
>> Hiya -
>>
>> With Tantek coming down to SoCal at the end of the month, I'd like to
>> propose a get-together for people here with an interest in
>> Microformats.  I work for EarthLink in the Pasadena office and I'm
>> fairly positive we could use one of our conference rooms if needed.
>>
>> Of course, it might be a bit less formal to meet somewhere more
>> social, a la with food and drink.  I'm open to any suggestions.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> josh
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Michael McCracken
> UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
> research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
> misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From microformats at kaply.com  Sat Jan 13 08:17:11 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Sat Jan 13 08:17:14 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator Usability Question
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0701130817w641ecf48we9e432d3977dc75c@mail.gmail.com>

I apologize for asking an Operator question to the microformats group,
but this functionality will probably be most used by you all, so you
are the right people to ask.

Currently, holding down the Ctrl Key when clicking on an entry in
Operator displays the HTML and holding down the shift key when
clicking displays the content as I store it in an internal structure.

Unfortunately, my choice of the Ctrl key was a bad one, since the Ctrl
key is used to affect tabbed browser behavior. I'd like to change
Operator so that when the Ctrl key is held down when clicking, it
opens the web page specific to the operator action in a background
tab.

The only keyboard action I'm left with using is Ctrl+Shift at the same
time (alt isn't available).

So, here's the question.

Of the two actions I provide, which is the most useful to microformat
developers, seeing the source of the microformat or how I interpret
it?

Should I assign the Shift key to displaying the microformat and
Ctrl+Shift to displaying my internal representation (since I may be
the only one that uses it)

Alternatively, should I simply add menu items that correspond to these
two actions when Operator is in debug mode and get rid of the
keystrokes completely.

Or perhaps a menuitem to display the HTML, and the hidden action (Ctrl
key) displays the internal representation.

Thanks for any input you can provide.
From scott at randomchaos.com  Sat Jan 13 10:19:31 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sat Jan 13 10:19:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden elements considered harmful (Was: Inline
	styleconflict?)
In-Reply-To: <006a01c73721$c91fc760$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl><e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com><AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu><e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com><09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk><B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
	<2D0130F2-F9F1-4593-BCBA-E909BD3DEE15@randomchaos.com>
	<006a01c73721$c91fc760$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <F2EA8C87-7FB8-4508-9CC3-9118F5BEC70B@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 13, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:

> It really makes more sense to look at the use-case rather than to  
> issue a
> blanket edit of prohibition.

It does.  My answers were addressing only the ~80% use cases we're  
seeking to cover here.  For anything involving the other ~20%, I  
continue to recommend RDF as a good solution for hidden data.  I hope  
no one will restrict themselves to microformats as a blanket solution  
to all data markup problems, as that's not what microformats are  
intended to be.

Peace,
Scott

From chris at placenamehere.com  Sat Jan 13 15:48:33 2007
From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
Date: Sat Jan 13 15:48:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden elements considered harmful (Was: Inline
	styleconflict?)
In-Reply-To: <F2EA8C87-7FB8-4508-9CC3-9118F5BEC70B@randomchaos.com>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl><e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com><AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu><e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com><09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk><B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
	<2D0130F2-F9F1-4593-BCBA-E909BD3DEE15@randomchaos.com>
	<006a01c73721$c91fc760$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
	<F2EA8C87-7FB8-4508-9CC3-9118F5BEC70B@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <A56B7001-A7BA-43E7-B47B-04ECB68F287A@placenamehere.com>


On Jan 13, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:

> On Jan 13, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>
>> It really makes more sense to look at the use-case rather than to  
>> issue a
>> blanket edit of prohibition.
>
> It does.  My answers were addressing only the ~80% use cases we're  
> seeking to cover here.  For anything involving the other ~20%, I  
> continue to recommend RDF as a good solution for hidden data.  I  
> hope no one will restrict themselves to microformats as a blanket  
> solution to all data markup problems, as that's not what  
> microformats are intended to be.
>
> Peace,
> Scott

I tend to include myself in the camp of those who can't seem to  
reconcile this POV with my other notions of good web development  
practices.

I can't argue that in some cases other data methods might be more  
appropriate, or that there are dangers in maintaining "hidden"  
information but each time this discussion has surfaced I'm left with  
the feeling that the party line around these parts brush off three  
things: the amount of data we're already "hiding" by other means, the  
ability of technology to bypass the issue of not updating hidden  
information and some of the core strengths of web techs (css, js).



On the first issue I don't see a huge gap between the "harmfulness"  
of display:none vs. data being included in HTML attributes that also  
don't get seen by huge numbers of visitors... rel XFN values, title  
attributes or alt attributes used in cases like FN derived from photo  
alt.

In my own experience I have seen countless more cases of ALT  
attribute content being missed [either not changed with the photo  
change or good values being replaced with junk] when an image gets  
changed then I could ever imagine seeing in a microformats data case.  
But I would be the last person to suggest that ALT attributes are  
considered harmful on today's web.



In sort-of-but-not opposition to that notion, I think that there are  
many, many cases where content is generated not by hand but from some  
bigger content generation system thus throwing any maintenance issues  
out the window. Be it user data generated from the system, event  
data, or any other automated data there is little impact on the  
quality of information by the presentation of that same information.  
At least insofar as not being included in the HTML at all vs.  
including it but using display:none [the discussion of user behavior  
and their willingness to update a field in their profile that they  
never 'see' anywhere is, i would expect, the same for both cases].  
Additionally, in cases of rudimentary systems like static includes  
the ability to use CSS to hide the information in some of the  
situations the data is used I would think would be preferred over  
having to manage multiple include blocks - one for each desired  
presentation.



Which leads me to my last issue, and one that I think is the one i  
struggle most with when thinking about how to do web dev the "right"  
way. Clearly good data in title and rel attributes is 'right', as is  
using markup in ways that would get you into the alt attribute cases.  
But it is hard for me to reconcile the use of previous web  
development methods [separation of content and presentation &  
progressive enhancement] with the camp that takes a hard line on  
hidden elements being harmful.

There are little cases like the ways in which elements may be  
manipulated in techniques like image replacement or accessible  
scripting techniques... On some level we do things like "hide" much  
more important informations like navigation day in and day out.

Then there are other cases like multiple media types, alternate style  
sheets and similar cases which I just don't see how they square with  
the "hidden elements considered harmful" sentiment.

Outside of the extreme CSS Zen Garden cases, or the mostly impossible  
& impractical site redesign by changing /only/ the CSS holy grails,  
there are still cases where it would be more 'proper' to leverage CSS  
then it would be to edit the HTML or HTML generation code. Message  
board applications with different user selected skins that present  
content a bit differently (Vanilla), Blog themes, community sites  
where users edit their profile presentation via CSS... all cases  
where CSS usage in this way would be seen as leveraging the strengths  
of the technology.




-- 
[ Chris Casciano ]
[ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan 12 15:32:54 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan 13 19:45:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <86ejpz3kur.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org>
References: <200701121804.l0CI4DTB020188@microformats.org>
	<EF5A304C-2A15-4C90-BEE0-A0ACAFEBE593@ryancannon.com>
	<86ejpz3kur.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org>
Message-ID: <IKqI7yRmqBqFFwuE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <86ejpz3kur.fsf@rakim.cfhp.org>, Edward O'Connor
<hober0@gmail.com> writes

>> The pedant in me says that "cite" is a verb and not really
>> appropriate to label something that is a noun.
>
>IIRC, this is a usage difference between en-US and en-GB, though I
>can't remember which one takes which position in this case.

The Oxford English Dictionary (usually taken as the definitive reference
for UK English) gives the noun 'Cite' as a US variant of "citation",
first noted in 1957.

I can't give a URL, as I have access to a subscription-only version.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan 13 01:13:52 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan 13 19:45:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <E602E830-EDC6-4DB6-8FA7-326490A685E1@westciv.com>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
	<09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
	<E602E830-EDC6-4DB6-8FA7-326490A685E1@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <Fg3rhBXQLKqFFw9g@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <E602E830-EDC6-4DB6-8FA7-326490A685E1@westciv.com>, John
Allsopp <john@westciv.com> writes

>> **Why** is it considered harmful to hide elements?
>
>I think the fate of the meta element (unused by any search engine)

Google uses <meta name="Description" [...] >

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan 13 11:57:03 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan 13 19:45:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator Usability Question
In-Reply-To: <e06e0e0b0701130817w641ecf48we9e432d3977dc75c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e06e0e0b0701130817w641ecf48we9e432d3977dc75c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0KgHbwaPmTqFFwJB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<e06e0e0b0701130817w641ecf48we9e432d3977dc75c@mail.gmail.com>, Mike
Kaply <microformats@kaply.com> writes

>I apologize for asking an Operator question to the microformats group,

I don't think any apology is needed.

>Currently, holding down the Ctrl Key when clicking on an entry in
>Operator displays the HTML and holding down the shift key when
>clicking displays the content as I store it in an internal structure.
>
>Unfortunately, my choice of the Ctrl key was a bad one,
[...]
>Of the two actions I provide, which is the most useful to microformat
>developers, seeing the source of the microformat or how I interpret
>it?

Your interpretation = +1

>Alternatively, should I simply add menu items that correspond to these
>two actions when Operator is in debug mode

Yes, please.

>and get rid of the keystrokes completely.

why not off all the options, as user-configurable settings?


-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan 13 12:02:59 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan 13 19:45:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden elements considered harmful (Was:
	Inline	styleconflict?)
In-Reply-To: <006a01c73721$c91fc760$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
	<09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
	<2D0130F2-F9F1-4593-BCBA-E909BD3DEE15@randomchaos.com>
	<006a01c73721$c91fc760$0702a8c0@Guides.local>
Message-ID: <sKvBrnbzrTqFFwql@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <006a01c73721$c91fc760$0702a8c0@Guides.local>, Mike Schinkel
<mikeschinkel@gmail.com> writes

><LINK> elements are invisible metadata that are used appropriately on
>the web today.

Example:

        <http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-01-13>

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 10-day week!
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Sat Jan 13 20:31:44 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Sat Jan 13 20:31:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <18D28369-3001-478A-932F-F0FBADB5640C@stonecottage.com>
Message-ID: <C1CEF22C.85079%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/13/07 7:24 AM, "josh lucas" <josh@stonecottage.com> wrote:

> Part of it depends on Tantak's schedule just a bit since it would be
> great if he could attend while he was down here.  We can definitely
> have it at EarthLink and then move somewhere with food and drink
> afterwards if that is agreeable.
> 
> How about I throw out a date and we can move on from there?  I'm
> thinking Tuesday, January 30.

Hi Josh, thanks for spearheading an LA microformats meetup.

I will be in LA from Thursday January 25th, through Monday January 29th, so
unfortunately the 30th does not work for me.

Perhaps you could start a page on the wiki where folks in the LA/SoCal area
can express interest and preferences?

Thanks,

Tantek

From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Sun Jan 14 07:58:01 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Sun Jan 14 07:58:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED0@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi there 

We're currently looking at using the event microformat on the redesigned
radio 4 schedule page (and possibly throughout bbc.co.uk/radio4)

And we're wondering if a network/service (BBC 1, Radio 4, Radio 1 etc)
could be described as a "location" 
Or whether we'd be better to push for a new MF to describe a
broadcast!?! 

We'd need: 
Title 
Description 
Start time 
End time / duration 
Service (channel) 

And possibly like 
Service logo 

Anybody else need to describe a broadcast? 
Any other thoughts? 
Ta 
Michael 


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From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Sun Jan 14 08:30:08 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Sun Jan 14 08:30:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] =?windows-1252?q?What_is_=91post-office-box=92=3F?=
Message-ID: <7E915F62-CF83-4EDB-948E-97CB60391A4B@ben-ward.co.uk>

Just a quick one.

VCard defines ?post office box? as part of ADR. The spec [1] says  
that it comes before ?extended address? in sequence, but then fails  
to provide an example for it. As such hcard-examples also doesn't  
provide an example.

What's the expected content in this field? Is it literally as-in some  
UK addresses?

*PO Box 5674*
Enfield
London
SW2 1FE

Or is it supposed to just be the number? Or something else entirely?

Thanks,

Ben

From jeremy at adactio.com  Sun Jan 14 09:31:58 2007
From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith)
Date: Sun Jan 14 09:32:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED0@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED0@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <EF073DB4-D214-48C9-86A7-DCF201869AF6@adactio.com>

Michael wrote:
> We're currently looking at using the event microformat on the  
> redesigned
> radio 4 schedule page (and possibly throughout bbc.co.uk/radio4)

That is fantastic news!

> And we're wondering if a network/service (BBC 1, Radio 4, Radio 1 etc)
> could be described as a "location"

IMHO, yes. I believe you could put "Radio 4" as the "location". It  
wouldn't be marked up as an hCard as a "real" physical location would  
but I think it's a valid value.

> Or whether we'd be better to push for a new MF to describe a
> broadcast!?!

Definitely not, in my opinion. It looks to me like hCalendar is  
perfect for describing a broadcast:

> Title
> Description
> Start time
> End time / duration
> Service (channel)

Swap "service" for "location" and you're good to go.

Bye,

Jeremy

-- 
Jeremy Keith

a d a c t i o

http://adactio.com/


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan 14 09:13:06 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jan 14 10:20:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED0@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED0@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <pl7wgWwiSmqFFwY$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED0@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.
uk>, Michael Smethurst <Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk> writes


>We're currently looking at using the event microformat on the
>redesigned radio 4 schedule page (and possibly throughout
>bbc.co.uk/radio4)

[For those unfamiliar, the current pages are at:
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/schedule/>]

That's splendid news. Please also consider hCard for contact details,
and hAtom for schedule listings.

>And we're wondering if a network/service (BBC 1, Radio 4, Radio 1 etc)
>could be described as a "location"

If I enter a radio or TV programme in my diary programme, I use
"location" to note what you call the "network/service".


While not a microformat. you might also consider using "link" headers.
or adding "rel" attributes to existing links, to indicate previous
(rel="prev"), next (rel="next") and parent (rel="up") pages, etc. See:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/diary/2007/02/htm>

for examples and please fell free to e-mail me privately if you need
further pointers.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 11-day week!
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sun Jan 14 15:33:16 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sun Jan 14 15:33:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden elements considered harmful (Was: Inline
	style conflict?)
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701141533m515dfa44xc2b90bbecdf2a2df@mail.gmail.com>

I too find ths area of microformats one of the weaker areas of
consensus and of having strong examples of best practices.

On the one hand, there's the matter of style, where certain data are
hidden in the interest of visual appeal (CSS Zen Garden, etc).

Other times, data that is necessary for computer interpretation is
hidden to save cluttering the human-friendly view -- lately a
discussion on the inclusion of countries at Upcoming.

Then, and these are the compelling cases to address for me, there are
cases of data fidelity both on lesser devices (like mobile phones --
i.e. without any CSS) and then the matter of fidelity when copying
data on the client-side from one app or site to another (see live
clipboard).

In any case, I think we need best practices on the implementors side
and then set expectations on the end-user/client side.  And, in most
cases, some semantics are better than none. I mean, let's face it,
MP3s serve a purpose even when FLAC is a superior format so all this
hand-wringing, while important, should still be considered in
applicable contexts. Microformats don't replace filesystems, but they
do help us represent and pass data around a bit more freely.

Chris

Chris

On 1/13/07, Chris Casciano <chris@placenamehere.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 13, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:
>
> > On Jan 13, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> >
> >> It really makes more sense to look at the use-case rather than to
> >> issue a
> >> blanket edit of prohibition.
> >
> > It does.  My answers were addressing only the ~80% use cases we're
> > seeking to cover here.  For anything involving the other ~20%, I
> > continue to recommend RDF as a good solution for hidden data.  I
> > hope no one will restrict themselves to microformats as a blanket
> > solution to all data markup problems, as that's not what
> > microformats are intended to be.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Scott
>
> I tend to include myself in the camp of those who can't seem to
> reconcile this POV with my other notions of good web development
> practices.
>
> I can't argue that in some cases other data methods might be more
> appropriate, or that there are dangers in maintaining "hidden"
> information but each time this discussion has surfaced I'm left with
> the feeling that the party line around these parts brush off three
> things: the amount of data we're already "hiding" by other means, the
> ability of technology to bypass the issue of not updating hidden
> information and some of the core strengths of web techs (css, js).
>
>
>
> On the first issue I don't see a huge gap between the "harmfulness"
> of display:none vs. data being included in HTML attributes that also
> don't get seen by huge numbers of visitors... rel XFN values, title
> attributes or alt attributes used in cases like FN derived from photo
> alt.
>
> In my own experience I have seen countless more cases of ALT
> attribute content being missed [either not changed with the photo
> change or good values being replaced with junk] when an image gets
> changed then I could ever imagine seeing in a microformats data case.
> But I would be the last person to suggest that ALT attributes are
> considered harmful on today's web.
>
>
>
> In sort-of-but-not opposition to that notion, I think that there are
> many, many cases where content is generated not by hand but from some
> bigger content generation system thus throwing any maintenance issues
> out the window. Be it user data generated from the system, event
> data, or any other automated data there is little impact on the
> quality of information by the presentation of that same information.
> At least insofar as not being included in the HTML at all vs.
> including it but using display:none [the discussion of user behavior
> and their willingness to update a field in their profile that they
> never 'see' anywhere is, i would expect, the same for both cases].
> Additionally, in cases of rudimentary systems like static includes
> the ability to use CSS to hide the information in some of the
> situations the data is used I would think would be preferred over
> having to manage multiple include blocks - one for each desired
> presentation.
>
>
>
> Which leads me to my last issue, and one that I think is the one i
> struggle most with when thinking about how to do web dev the "right"
> way. Clearly good data in title and rel attributes is 'right', as is
> using markup in ways that would get you into the alt attribute cases.
> But it is hard for me to reconcile the use of previous web
> development methods [separation of content and presentation &
> progressive enhancement] with the camp that takes a hard line on
> hidden elements being harmful.
>
> There are little cases like the ways in which elements may be
> manipulated in techniques like image replacement or accessible
> scripting techniques... On some level we do things like "hide" much
> more important informations like navigation day in and day out.
>
> Then there are other cases like multiple media types, alternate style
> sheets and similar cases which I just don't see how they square with
> the "hidden elements considered harmful" sentiment.
>
> Outside of the extreme CSS Zen Garden cases, or the mostly impossible
> & impractical site redesign by changing /only/ the CSS holy grails,
> there are still cases where it would be more 'proper' to leverage CSS
> then it would be to edit the HTML or HTML generation code. Message
> board applications with different user selected skins that present
> content a bit differently (Vanilla), Blog themes, community sites
> where users edit their profile presentation via CSS... all cases
> where CSS usage in this way would be seen as leveraging the strengths
> of the technology.
>
>
>
>
> --
> [ Chris Casciano ]
> [ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sun Jan 14 16:23:33 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sun Jan 14 16:23:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: On emergent policy and self vs governance in
	common
In-Reply-To: <2BED2F99-5070-4E27-957F-3E2C6E5DEA7A@opendarwin.org>
References: <1bc4603e0701060245x3b45b0ccgbb3edf4d12092a09@mail.gmail.com>
	<2BED2F99-5070-4E27-957F-3E2C6E5DEA7A@opendarwin.org>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701141623p2edc5a68paa306c2cbfc98509@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Ernie,

Thanks for your feedback -- and taking the time to read thru my tome! ;)

Yes, I would very much agree with the two points that you raised and
second your amendments.

For one thing I worry that the microformats "cabal' with end up
leading to fragmented semantic html efforts when the Microformats
community could really stand to benefit from these efforts. While
those other efforts may not result in any "microformats", they may
generate guidelines for community adoption of semantic html behaviors
-- that in turn might result in "widespread, community-sanctioned
microformats."

This way anyone can play, no one is denied their piece of the semantic
pie, and the original principles that enbue our community can seep
into other related endeavors.

By encouraging this behavior, we position ourselves in the center of
this work, behaving like a more open Apache project for semantic html
undertakings. With the future of browsers now beginning to be
influenced by our work, we need to be cognizant that we have to grow
in a positive direction, and not become simply a clearinghouse for our
pet standards. Instead, we should generally support and promote
semantic html practices and develop a community of knowledge and
practice (whether on our domain or elsewhere) that is squarely bent on
advancing the state of the open web.

Given your clarifications, I think that that is a mandate worthy of pursuit.

Chris

On 1/8/07, Dr. Ernie Prabhakar <drernie@opendarwin.org> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Chris Messina wrote:
>
> >  I think the point is that anyone should be able to build out and see
> > through the execution and development of a microformats, potentially
> > entirely outside of this list, simply by religiously adhering to the
> > principals by which we govern ourselves and allow ourselves to be
> > governed.
>
> I think this was a brilliant post, and I'm tempted to agree, but I'm
> not entirely sure what you're asking for!
>
> I completely agree that we should allow -- nay, encourage --
> microformat-like discussions and proto-standards to emerge and prove
> their viability that don't qualify as "microformats" under the
> current Tantek-inspired definition.
>
> However, my preference would be that they:
>
> a) be developed outside this particular list
> b) don't call themselves microformats
>
> If you're okay with those two constraints, then you have my full
> support, but I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for.  What would
> make sense to me is to:
>
> a) Promote the term "semantic HTML" for microformat-like specifications
> b) Somebody volunteers to provide lists and wiki hosting services for
> alternate communities
>      (this could even be microformats.org, under a different namespace)
> c) Various individuals who have a concrete vision for non-microformat
> development -- and are prepared to enforce it! -- create communities
> on those alternate sites
> d) Microformats.org creates a meta-discuss mailing list where
> governance and the evolving relationship to its rhizomatic cousins
> is "on-topic"
>
> Is that in line with your vision?
>
> -- Ernie P.
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Sun Jan 14 17:06:09 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Sun Jan 14 17:06:16 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <Fg3rhBXQLKqFFw9g@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
	<09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
	<E602E830-EDC6-4DB6-8FA7-326490A685E1@westciv.com>
	<Fg3rhBXQLKqFFw9g@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701141706w3b2d24c0ldd4aa0f4f145e7@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure about the degree to which Google actually uses meta tags
anymore, but if someone has a definitive reference to shed some light
on this, it might be useful from an anecdotal standpoint, only.

We know that most meta tags, being invisible to humans, have been
routinely spammed. We also know that search engines also have learned
to ignoe such behavior, in the case of ignoring text that's the same
color as the background or 1 or 2px tall. Both are efforts to overload
a page's relevance by including data that is effectively invisible to
humans but shows up in the computer-friendly data.

So, IMO, people can use invisible microformatted html all they want,
but in my advocacy with browser makers, it's likely that I will be
confronted by the view that only indivisible data will be considered
for microformat parsing -- that is, data who's calculated style is to
be visible to humans at the point of rendering, and that all other
data should be summarily ignored. This is safer, leads to less
encouragement to spammers and also reflects a consistent user
experience -- if the data can't be included on the selfsame page, for
whatever reason, point to a location where the data *does* exist (like
the venue hcards on Upcoming).

Communities can choose to parse hidden or concealed microformats as
they like -- in smaller, closed cases, this might even make sense. But
in terms of best practice or practice likely to be embraced by
safety-aware tools like browsers, expect that visible data will take
precedence.

For now, though, we'll have to wait to see what support really looks
like, and what hidden dangers may lie in wait given their decisions.

Chris

On 1/13/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <E602E830-EDC6-4DB6-8FA7-326490A685E1@westciv.com>, John
> Allsopp <john@westciv.com> writes
>
> >> **Why** is it considered harmful to hide elements?
> >
> >I think the fate of the meta element (unused by any search engine)
>
> Google uses <meta name="Description" [...] >
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>
>         <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From angus at pobox.com  Sun Jan 14 18:56:09 2007
From: angus at pobox.com (Angus McIntyre)
Date: Sun Jan 14 18:56:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden elements considered harmful (Was: Inline 
	style conflict?)
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701141533m515dfa44xc2b90bbecdf2a2df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0701141533m515dfa44xc2b90bbecdf2a2df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a06230905c1d07bb8fa1b@[192.168.1.26]>

At 15:33 -0800 14.01.2007, Chris Messina wrote:
>I too find ths area of microformats one of the weaker areas of
>consensus and of having strong examples of best practices.
>
>On the one hand, there's the matter of style, where certain data are
>hidden in the interest of visual appeal (CSS Zen Garden, etc).
>
>Other times, data that is necessary for computer interpretation is
>hidden to save cluttering the human-friendly view -- lately a
>discussion on the inclusion of countries at Upcoming.

As they say over at AOL, "Me too".

I have a still-in-development PHP library that I use to publish pages 
of links to news articles. It uses hAtom to represent each article 
(title, capsule summary, etc). The library is capable of outputting a 
list of tags (using rel-tag) to accompany each item. In some cases, 
however, the taglist clutters up the display too much, and I want to 
hide the tags initially and display them on demand using Javascript.

To me, violating the no-hidden-data principle seems like the lesser 
of two evils here, when the alternative is to distract the user and 
detract from the appearance of the page.

Just my 2c,

Angus
From scott at randomchaos.com  Sun Jan 14 20:28:21 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sun Jan 14 20:28:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: On emergent policy and self vs governance in
	common
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701141623p2edc5a68paa306c2cbfc98509@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1bc4603e0701060245x3b45b0ccgbb3edf4d12092a09@mail.gmail.com>
	<2BED2F99-5070-4E27-957F-3E2C6E5DEA7A@opendarwin.org>
	<1bc4603e0701141623p2edc5a68paa306c2cbfc98509@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A640276-E484-4791-A5A6-5E05C02D4A7D@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 14, 2007, at 6:23 PM, Chris Messina wrote:

> For one thing I worry that the microformats "cabal' with end up
> leading to fragmented semantic html efforts when the Microformats
> community could really stand to benefit from these efforts.

On the other hand, I worry that we may end up stifling those efforts  
by encouraging them to do things too much like how we're doing them  
here.  There's a fine line between consensus and conformity.   
Microformats are a great hammer, but I think it's important to  
remember that not everything is a nail.

Peace,
Scott

From timber at lava.net  Sun Jan 14 20:48:49 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Sun Jan 14 20:48:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>
References: <555595.16810.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<DAfqpzI9x9pFFwW7@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5BAE91DB-35D1-4EF3-A2EA-E8B242C12574@lava.net>

On Jan 12, 2007, at 1:11 PM, Michael McCracken wrote:

> PS, why the 'h' - is it an upside-down ?, or does it stand for 'html'?

There was a post on this earlier, but basically the h has become the  
de facto standard for naming microformats. hCard was "html vCard". If  
you'll notice, some of the earlier uFs have different names (xFolk).

But I like h as an upside-down ?. That's clever :)

-Colin
From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 01:41:00 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Mon Jan 15 01:41:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <EF073DB4-D214-48C9-86A7-DCF201869AF6@adactio.com>
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED1@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Ok, this was my thinking
(feel free to shoot it down)

A broadcast is clearly an event, so mark it up as an event
But if it were possible to determine it's an event of type broadcast
you'd have enough information to not only add it to your calendar but
also to set a device to record the broadcast
This could be a PVR etc or just a box that rips streams (!ILLEGALLY! I
fear I must add) to mp3s
I might be getting carried away with the future here but this seems a
good compromise between data for human and machine consumption

I was thinking of something like
<li class="vevent vbroadcast">
	[as per hCalendar]
</li>
Of course we wouldn't do this without your input; if you disagree we'll
stick to hCalendar only

Apologies if this is too controversial

Ps any lurkers from itv, channel4, virgin radio, fox news etc etc etc
out there?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
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From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 01:55:34 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Mon Jan 15 01:55:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <pl7wgWwiSmqFFwY$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

We'll certainly be looking at:
- hCard for programme contact details
- hAtom (which is lovely) for schedule listings
- hReview for album reviews (http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/xmzf/)

Next and previous is tricky
We aim to provide a page per episode (not per broadcast)
http://www.plasticbag.org/files/misc/pips_etech.pdf
Since many episodes are broadcast many times (often across multiple
networks) (eg episode 3 of Torchwood) we couldn't really do next and
previous in schedule terms. If we have the data it would be nice to do
next and previous for a programme brand (eg Torchwood)

Parent is also tricky since an episode can have multiple containing
objects (brand, series, season, network) which don't wrap nicely into
each other

Anyway, I'll keep you informed




 

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andy
Mabbett
Sent: 14 January 2007 17:13
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast

In message
<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED0@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co
.
uk>, Michael Smethurst <Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk> writes


>We're currently looking at using the event microformat on the 
>redesigned radio 4 schedule page (and possibly throughout
>bbc.co.uk/radio4)

[For those unfamiliar, the current pages are at:
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/schedule/>]

That's splendid news. Please also consider hCard for contact details,
and hAtom for schedule listings.

>And we're wondering if a network/service (BBC 1, Radio 4, Radio 1 etc) 
>could be described as a "location"

If I enter a radio or TV programme in my diary programme, I use
"location" to note what you call the "network/service".


While not a microformat. you might also consider using "link" headers.
or adding "rel" attributes to existing links, to indicate previous
(rel="prev"), next (rel="next") and parent (rel="up") pages, etc. See:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/diary/2007/02/htm>

for examples and please fell free to e-mail me privately if you need
further pointers.

--
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 11-day week!
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					

From mark at geekhive.net  Mon Jan 15 02:08:35 2007
From: mark at geekhive.net (Mark Andrew Jaroski)
Date: Mon Jan 15 02:10:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Wikis
Message-ID: <20070115100835.GM28887@who.int>

Hi all,

As you might know if you happened to read my post from the other week
I'm working on an implementation of hCalendar and hCard for a
MediaWiki-based site called Wikevent.org.  The hCalendar implementation
has beem pretty straight-forward, but I'm running into a great big
sticking point with the hCard implementation, to wit, hCard has several
required attributes as it must, but in a Wiki nothing should be required
since you want to accept all good-faith contributions. Somebody can come
along and add the required data later, but not if you reject the
original contribution.

So, the obvious thing to do is to just go ahead and render incomplete
hCard data as HTML without the additional hCard markup, or at least
wihout the vcard class in the parent tag.

That's exactly what I was about to do, and then it occurred to me that
some people might want to have the incomplete hCard anyhow, even if it's
not actually valid per-se.  So, maybe it would be valuable to have
something like vCard-incomplete to wrap incomplete hCards with?  I can
see an argument that that might pollute the discussion, and lead to
incompatible implementations, etc. so I'm not going to just go ahead and
do it, but like I said it might be useful for some people.  

What do you think?

Thanks!

-mark


-- 
--
=================================================================
-- mark at geekhive dot net --
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 02:18:51 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jan 15 02:19:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED1@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED1@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 15 Jan 2007, at 09:41, Michael Smethurst wrote:
> I was thinking of something like
> <li class="vevent vbroadcast">
> 	[as per hCalendar]
> </li>
> Of course we wouldn't do this without your input; if you disagree  
> we'll
> stick to hCalendar only

What you're trying to do, it seems, is to categorise the event. The  
accepted way to do this in microformats would be to add the tag  
?broadcast?.

A parser could then filter events that only have that specific tag.

Tagging specific microformats came up in passing quite recently:
	http://www.mail-archive.com/microformats-discuss@microformats.org/ 
msg05994.html

With some cunning copy, you may already have the word ?broadcast? in  
your content already, in which case just hyperlink it to a tagspace  
(http://bbc.co.uk/broadcasts, for example) and add rel=tag.

Regards,

Ben

From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 02:22:47 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Mon Jan 15 02:22:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED7@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Top stuff
Perfect
thanks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					

From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 05:29:39 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Mon Jan 15 05:29:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

<snip>With some cunning copy, you may already have the word 'broadcast'
in your content already, in which case just hyperlink it to a tagspace
(http://bbc.co.uk/broadcasts, for example) and add rel=tag.</snip>

I'd guess I'd rather not tie it to the bbc url in the hope that others
may feel more free to use

Anyone for hyperlinking to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcasting
?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 08:36:00 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jan 15 08:36:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9BA95E5E-804F-4024-9351-E13AE1632FBD@ben-ward.co.uk>


On 15 Jan 2007, at 13:29, Michael Smethurst wrote:

> Anyone for hyperlinking to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcasting
> ?

That would be absolutely fine. Or any other tag space (Technorati et  
al).

My BBC domain suggestion was based on the thinking that linking  
externally mightn't be appropriate at the Beeb, but if you can  go  
off-site for it then all the better.

Ben
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 10:49:27 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Jan 15 10:49:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <21e770780701151049k1b99d238u4de116aa0dff22f1@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/07, Michael Smethurst <Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Anyone for hyperlinking to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcasting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_pilot

Tags let you keep things very open-ended for lots of things specific
to your application.

Another great site which could use some Microformats goodness and ties
nicely into this discussion is the BBC Open catalogue.

http://open.bbc.co.uk/catalogue/infax

Much of the information there is invaluable and can easily be
marked-up with Microformats. When you are considering what to
add/encode in your Broadcast listings, you SHOULD be able to encode
enough information to replicate the Open Catalogue using only your
flat HTML files.

-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan 15 10:25:41 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan 15 14:25:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701141706w3b2d24c0ldd4aa0f4f145e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<e86992a40701110136p71576febh1844b2e2999cfc48@mail.gmail.com>
	<AAA6D65F-8D71-4E7A-A395-860ACE14A51B@nyu.edu>
	<e86992a40701120138l2772ad58s9217e438bf611749@mail.gmail.com>
	<09j3moNBQBqFFwqW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B7504B63-4112-461B-BFBA-2199D2295CDA@nyu.edu>
	<E602E830-EDC6-4DB6-8FA7-326490A685E1@westciv.com>
	<Fg3rhBXQLKqFFw9g@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<1bc4603e0701141706w3b2d24c0ldd4aa0f4f145e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <jBay5GIlc8qFFw6B@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <1bc4603e0701141706w3b2d24c0ldd4aa0f4f145e7@mail.gmail.com>,
Chris Messina <chris.messina@gmail.com> writes

>I'm not sure about the degree to which Google actually uses meta tags
>anymore, but if someone has a definitive reference to shed some light
>on this, it might be useful from an anecdotal standpoint, only.

Evidence and "definitive references" are not "anecdotal".

A Google search for "West Midland Bird Club Birmingham branch" gives, as
the first result:

        West Midland Bird Club: Birmingham Branch
        The West Midland Bird Club's branch in Birmingham, England.
        www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/birmingham/index.htm

Note that the second line of that quote, the description, is from
either:

        <meta name="Description" content="The West Midland Bird Club's
        branch in Birmingham, England.">
or:
        <meta name="DC.description" lang="en" content="The West Midland
        Bird Club's branch in Birmingham, England.">

(most likely the first) and does not appear on the page concerned.

Compare it with the description in the second result of a search for
"microformats":

        Designed for humans first and machines second, microformats are
        a set of simple, ...
        Instead of throwing away what works today, microformats intend
        to solve ...

        microformats.org/about/

Those ellipses are a literal quote, not my shorthand.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 12-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan 15 11:03:29 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan 15 14:25:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <pl7wgWwiSmqFFwY$@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <VAzvpsKBA9qFFwt3@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.
uk>, Michael Smethurst <Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk> writes

>We'll certainly be looking at:
>- hCard for programme contact details
>- hAtom (which is lovely) for schedule listings
>- hReview for album reviews (http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/xmzf/)

Again, that's great.

>Next and previous is tricky

Why? You already have "next day" and "previous day" links on:

        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/schedule/>

all you need to do is add rel="next" or rel="prev" to them. Likewise
next and previous week links on:

        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/schedule/week/>

>We aim to provide a page per episode (not per broadcast)

I can see why that might sometimes be an issue, but, for example:

        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/pip/fjezd/>

is for an episode dated 8 January 2007; with links to pages for episodes
dated 1 and 15 Jan.

Of course, it would be better if the above was, say:

        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/20070108/>

or, perhaps:

        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/2007/episode002/>

or:

        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/series003/episode05/>

or:

        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/2007/01/08/>


(the later would particularly suit long-running, frequent programmes
such as the Archers.)

>http://www.plasticbag.org/files/misc/pips_etech.pdf

Pardon?

>Since many episodes are broadcast many times (often across multiple
>networks) (eg episode 3 of Torchwood) we couldn't really do next and
>previous in schedule terms.

No, but, as above, you could do so in episode terms; and for daily and
weekly schedules.

>Parent is also tricky since an episode can have multiple containing
>objects (brand, series, season, network) which don't wrap nicely into
>each other

That's an editorial judgement call. Don't forget that you can also use
rel="appendix", rel="section" and rel="start".

>Anyway, I'll keep you informed

Thank you. Please do - I'm sure folks here would be happy to evaluate
prototypes.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 12-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan 15 11:00:57 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan 15 14:25:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <jBZyJCKp98qFFwap@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.
uk>, Michael Smethurst <Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk> writes

>Anyone for hyperlinking to
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcasting
>?

How would that link be understood, by your non-techie visitors?

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 12-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan 15 11:09:07 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan 15 14:25:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Wikis
In-Reply-To: <20070115100835.GM28887@who.int>
References: <20070115100835.GM28887@who.int>
Message-ID: <Jg3ohJLTF9qFFwMB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <20070115100835.GM28887@who.int>, Mark Andrew Jaroski
<mark@geekhive.net> writes

>the obvious thing to do is to just go ahead and render incomplete hCard
>data as HTML without the additional hCard markup, or at least wihout
>the vcard class in the parent tag.
>
>That's exactly what I was about to do, and then it occurred to me that
>some people might want to have the incomplete hCard anyhow

I'd prefer the former; with strong encouragement, in guidelines and help
pages, to your users, to get it right first time.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 12-day week!
From john at westciv.com  Mon Jan 15 14:37:52 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Mon Jan 15 14:39:16 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] tagging "discussion" hits slashdot
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED1@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED1@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9014C704-BC5D-4779-9120-C7F09BFF6474@westciv.com>

By now I am sure plenty of folks have seen

http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/320

and as discussed at slashdot

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/15/136219&from=rss

the reltag Microformat gets a mention in the comments of the original  
article, but sadly, not at all at slashdot (at least at the relevance  
level I have set)

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher
Web Directions North, Vancouver Feb 6-10 :: http:// 
north.webdirections.org


From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 15:52:08 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Mon Jan 15 15:52:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <VAzvpsKBA9qFFwt3@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <pl7wgWwiSmqFFwY$@pigsonthewing.org.uk><C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<VAzvpsKBA9qFFwt3@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEF6@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Ok, ok
We're at cross purposes
We can provide next and previous links to both schedule day and week
views ~ no problem


http://www.plasticbag.org/files/misc/pips_etech.pdf
Is a link to the etech slides for pips (the Programme Information
Platform designed by mssrs biddulph, coates and bell)
This is the database which bbc programme sites are/will be built on
It goes into a little detail about an episode centric design

So
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/pip/fjezd/
Could be
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/20070108/
Or
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/2007/01/08/
Or etc

But an episode can have many broadcasts (including cross-network
repeats):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/clareinthecommunity/2007/02/09/
Could be the same episode


Hence the use of
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clareinthecommunity/pip/fjezd/
As the canonical url for an episode
In time the same resource may be addressable through broadcasts
instances but we're not there yet


Believe me, I've been having this conversation in meetings, down the
pub, on fags breaks for 3 years now. And you really can't move around
here for uri obsessives. When it looks bad it's not cos we're not trying
~ just blame the data

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					

From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 16:01:36 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Mon Jan 15 16:01:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <jBZyJCKp98qFFwap@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk><C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<jBZyJCKp98qFFwap@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEF7@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Fair point
But where else could I point to that wouldn't confuse?
Can hide it in css but still leaves the problem of screen readers
Which I guess is a wider problem with ufs
Not that I wanna kick off that discussion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
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From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 16:09:19 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Mon Jan 15 16:09:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701151049k1b99d238u4de116aa0dff22f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk><C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<21e770780701151049k1b99d238u4de116aa0dff22f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEF8@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_pilot

Now if only we had the data to tell us that stuff ~ maybe one day

Unfortunately infax is outside our control. Not sure if there's any more
work planned on it or whether ufs will be part of this. A question for
Mr loosemore and mr biddulph i guess


<snip>When you are considering what to add/encode in your Broadcast
listings, you SHOULD be able to encode enough information to replicate
the Open Catalogue using only your flat HTML files.</snip>
(Again unfortunately) the bbc.co.uk sites are built on a different
dataset to the infax stuff. This data is broader but less deep so stuff
like the contributors
(http://open.bbc.co.uk/catalogue/infax/contributor/7581) and subject
tags
(http://open.bbc.co.uk/catalogue/infax/tag/tardis_interplanetary_vehicle
) aren't there (yet)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Jan 15 16:09:39 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Jan 15 16:09:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Wikis
In-Reply-To: <20070115100835.GM28887@who.int>
References: <20070115100835.GM28887@who.int>
Message-ID: <1BD6DA57-E08B-4C4F-83FC-EF7404A3095C@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 15, 2007, at 4:08 AM, Mark Andrew Jaroski wrote:

> hCard has several
> required attributes as it must, but in a Wiki nothing should be  
> required
> since you want to accept all good-faith contributions. Somebody can  
> come
> along and add the required data later, but not if you reject the
> original contribution

hCard has only one required property: fn.  I think that should solve  
your problem, unless you're collecting contact data without names.

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan 15 16:15:25 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan 15 18:01:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat to describe a broadcast
In-Reply-To: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEF7@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <F71C4F3F-6876-4118-BCA5-CE7CA41A69A1@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEE2@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<jBZyJCKp98qFFwap@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEF7@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e5F9HRcdkBrFFwm+@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FEF7@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.
uk>, Michael Smethurst <Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk> writes

>Fair point

What is?

Please quote the post to which you're responding.

Thank you.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 13-day week!
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Jan 16 01:18:35 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Jan 16 01:18:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Wikis
In-Reply-To: <1BD6DA57-E08B-4C4F-83FC-EF7404A3095C@randomchaos.com>
References: <20070115100835.GM28887@who.int>
	<1BD6DA57-E08B-4C4F-83FC-EF7404A3095C@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701160118p795a9c68mb37384a6171bd8c7@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/16/07, Scott Reynen <scott@randomchaos.com> wrote:
> hCard has only one required property: fn.  I think that should solve
> your problem, unless you're collecting contact data without names.

I believe n is also required, or rather if it's omitted you're having
to assume that the implied-n optimisation will be appropriate for the
user input.

I came across this myself in an application where we had a single
input for 'name'.  If you just output <span class="fn">$foo</span>
then if the user has entered something like Sir Michael the implied-n
optimisation will take Sir as the given-name and Michael as the
family-name.

-Ciaran McNulty
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Tue Jan 16 03:54:56 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Tue Jan 16 03:55:02 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] MashupCamp3
Message-ID: <21e523c20701160354o6971006fvac79025c8f04b3d3@mail.gmail.com>

Any one else going to Cambridge tomorrow for MashupCamp3 [1]?

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://wiki.mashupcamp.com/index.php/MashupCamp3Logistics

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From xymox12 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 16 07:35:32 2007
From: xymox12 at hotmail.com (EC)
Date: Tue Jan 16 07:35:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY114-DAV808123126A6888B1DA7ECB7B40@phx.gbl>


 Hi,

Thanks everyone for your input, most interesting.

Again I am wondering why when the code is an hCard it has been moved in the
hCalender problematic section? Note: the hCard FAQs are different to the
hCalender FAQs and do not mention problems using display:none. Do the
microformat specifications state that the visibility of data is a necessity,
or is this a usability issue rather than a microformat markup issue?
 
I am going to remove in the near future the <img> from the hCard. It was
initially meant to be an experiment to see how the available microformat
parsers in Firefox handled the display:none style. I was aware before adding
the style the implications involved with hiding data with respect to spam,
SEO etc. I can understand that hiding data in microformats may be unwanted,
and abused.

The question is can using valid css markup (eg style="display:none") lead to

a) invalid microformat markup? or 
b) valid microformat markup that 'may' display different data depending on
user and/or is 'possibly' undesirable eg spam? If (b) is the case then
surely this isn't a microformat issue at all but the older issues of
usability and using CSS responsibly? 


TIA

Euan Cameron




 -----Original Message-----
From: EC [mailto:xymox12@hotmail.com] 
Sent: 10 January 2007 12:02
To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Subject: Inline style conflict?

Hi there,

I notice the site Theatre Studies: European Theatre
(http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/) has been placed in the problem
section of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild due to
the use of inline style (style="display:none") used within an img tag.

Here is the code in question:
<span class="vcard">
<img style="display:none"
src="http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/images/staff/scolvin.jpg"
alt="Sarah Colvin" class="photo" />
<span class="honorific-prefix">Professor </span> <span
style="font-weight:bold" class="fn">Sarah Colvin</span><br />
Email: <a href="mailto:sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk"
class="email">sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk</a>
</span>

I am not sure why this has been done as:
A) the img is part a hCard and not an hCalender, although both exist on the
page
B) using a correctly formatted css inline markup to hide the img from the
browser renderers cannot, surely, conflict with  microformat semantic
markup. Having read the brainstorming hCard FAQ I initially used  <span
style="display:none"></span> around the img tag - however I see no reason in
this case to add the extra markup around the img tag. ( The is the future
'Proposed
Additions'(http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Use_of_CSS_compute
d_styles_instead_of_HTML_default_styles) but this is for text formating, as
far as I can see, so it wouldn't interfere with an img file getting parsed
correctly.)

Using the Tails (0.3.6) Firefox add-on correctly parses the microformat
content on this page including the image.

Can anyone explain why the inline css style (display:none) cannot co-exist
(ignoring the benefits of using external style sheets rather than inline
css) with the microformat semantic markup. I'm probably missing something
obvious here, so thanks for any advice. 

Cheers

Euan



From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan 16 10:02:03 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan 16 10:02:05 2007
Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_What_is_=91post-office-box=92?=
	=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <7E915F62-CF83-4EDB-948E-97CB60391A4B@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <7E915F62-CF83-4EDB-948E-97CB60391A4B@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9FA3FA3F-341D-41F3-86A6-6CABEFD9465F@technorati.com>

On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Ben Ward wrote:
> Just a quick one.
>
> VCard defines ?post office box? as part of ADR. The spec [1] says  
> that it comes before ?extended address? in sequence, but then fails  
> to provide an example for it. As such hcard-examples also doesn't  
> provide an example.
>
> What's the expected content in this field? Is it literally as-in  
> some UK addresses?
>
> *PO Box 5674*
> Enfield
> London
> SW2 1FE
>
> Or is it supposed to just be the number? Or something else entirely?

I don't think it's entirely clear. Personally, I'd agree with marking  
up the literal 'PO Box 5674' string with it.

-ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com




From chris at placenamehere.com  Tue Jan 16 11:09:22 2007
From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
Date: Tue Jan 16 11:09:35 2007
Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_What_is_=91post-office-box=92?=
	=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <9FA3FA3F-341D-41F3-86A6-6CABEFD9465F@technorati.com>
References: <7E915F62-CF83-4EDB-948E-97CB60391A4B@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<9FA3FA3F-341D-41F3-86A6-6CABEFD9465F@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <00B753D5-59EF-4AAA-879B-8CD8F3DCC3F0@placenamehere.com>


On Jan 16, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Ryan King wrote:

> On Jan 14, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Ben Ward wrote:
>> Just a quick one.
>>
>> VCard defines ?post office box? as part of ADR. The spec [1] says  
>> that it comes before ?extended address? in sequence, but then  
>> fails to provide an example for it. As such hcard-examples also  
>> doesn't provide an example.
>>
>> What's the expected content in this field? Is it literally as-in  
>> some UK addresses?
>>
>> *PO Box 5674*
>> Enfield
>> London
>> SW2 1FE
>>
>> Or is it supposed to just be the number? Or something else entirely?
>
> I don't think it's entirely clear. Personally, I'd agree with  
> marking up the literal 'PO Box 5674' string with it.
>
> -ryan


I'd have to say, though it doesn't lend much weight one way or  
another, that's been my behavior in the past as well.


-- 
[ Chris Casciano ]
[ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jan 16 11:39:58 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jan 16 11:46:17 2007
Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=3A_=5Buf-discuss=5D_What_is_=E2=80=98post-office-box=E2=80=99?=
	=?utf-8?q?=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <9FA3FA3F-341D-41F3-86A6-6CABEFD9465F@technorati.com>
References: <7E915F62-CF83-4EDB-948E-97CB60391A4B@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<9FA3FA3F-341D-41F3-86A6-6CABEFD9465F@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <hVxyMcjOoSrFFwSN@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <9FA3FA3F-341D-41F3-86A6-6CABEFD9465F@technorati.com>, Ryan
King <ryan@technorati.com> writes

>> VCard defines ?post office box? as part of ADR. The spec [1] says
>>that it comes before ?extended address? in sequence, but then fails
>>to provide an example for it. As such hcard-examples also doesn't
>>provide an example.
>>
>> What's the expected content in this field? Is it literally as-in
>>some UK addresses?
>>
>> *PO Box 5674*
>> Enfield
>> London
>> SW2 1FE
>>
>> Or is it supposed to just be the number? Or something else entirely?
>
>I don't think it's entirely clear. Personally, I'd agree with marking
>up the literal 'PO Box 5674' string with it.

The tests I apply in such cases, are:

        What would I type into my computer's address programme (or
        calendar, for hCal, and so on), if entering the details
        manually?

        If I were to print an address label (to attach to a postal
        packet, say) what would I want my computer to output?

To me, those make it clear that the correct data is, in the example
given, "PO Box 5674"; note that other valid UK postal addresses might
be:

        BFPO 1234
        Belize

        Freepost ABCD
        Anytown

        Bin 21
        Acme Mail Services
        Anytown

all of which have "post-office-box" data as their first line.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 13-day week!

From michael at donorschoose.org  Tue Jan 16 12:58:31 2007
From: michael at donorschoose.org (Michael Everett-Lane)
Date: Tue Jan 16 12:58:50 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] proposal for grants microformat (hGrant)
Message-ID: <41ED0E73B2268F4D9E4081FAB5ED05FD010D037B@midas.utopiasystems.net>

Hi, I'm new to the group but am intrigued by the hGrant idea, especially
as I work at a organization, www.donorschoose.org , that both gives
grants (to teachers) and receives them (from the public). We have
thousands of proposals that public school teachers have posted on our
site, and individuals can give directly to those projects. (Similar
"microphilanthropy" sites include Kiva.org, Modestneeds.org, and Global
Giving.) We've been talking about applying microformats to our proposals
(each has its own page) to make them semantic, but none of the existing
microformats seem to fit what we're doing.

Ideally, instead of hGrant you'd have something slightly more general
like hGive. This would allow organizations that are seeking
contributions / in-kind donations / volunteers to use it, as well as
organizations/people who are looking to volunteer, donate, etc. (I'm
thinking of online volunteer clearinghouses such as
http://www.nycares.org which exist in most US cities I believe.)

Possible fields:

* direction: seeking or offering?
* medium: cash or items or volunteer time?
* project cost / grant size: (perhaps other pricing data like minimum
donation, payment types accepted, currency -- not sure what the
standards are for price data among other microformats). Also, loan or
grant? (For example, Kiva and ModestNeeds give loans, DonorsChoose and
Global Giving give grants)
* demographic: some kind of data about the recipients -- avg income?,
number of people the project will serve, etc.
* geotag
* keyword tags ("education," "Shakespeare," "clean water" etc.)

I'm sure there are other possibilities / desiderata, especially around
volunteer projects (one time vs ongoing, group vs individual, etc) but
this is what comes to mind. 

If there were an implementable standard, I'm pretty sure I could get
DonorsChoose to start using it, and help spread the word to our sister
sites.

Eugene, I hope this isn't hijacking your thread, since it's a bit
different from what you originally proposed, which I think is a great
idea (I've been a fundraiser for many years so I know how hard it is to
get to that foundation data). 

Thanks,

Mike Everett-Lane
Executive Director, DonorsChoose New York

--------------------
347 West 36th Street, Suite 503, New York, NY 10018
212-239-3615 ext 204
michael@donorschoose.org
www.donorschoose.org





 
 

From davidjohnmead at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 13:56:54 2007
From: davidjohnmead at gmail.com (David Mead)
Date: Tue Jan 16 13:56:57 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for search engine spiders?
Message-ID: <ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>

Myself and a colleague were discussing microformats today and we
started wandering off on a tangent about the following.

Would microformats be the way forward to mark defined areas of a web
page for the sake of search engine spiders?  When anyone looks at a
web page the instinctively break it into navigation, content,
advertisements etc. What if we had standard names (microformats) to
wrap these areas in to work in conjunction with the sitemaps.org
standard in aiding the spiders to differentiate between the content
area and, say, text-ads area.  You could then delve deeper into the
XML file of your sitemap and tell it visit certain pages every day and
then specify which section of that page they should concentrate on.

I'd be interested in hearing if this a good use of microformats and
whether it's worth pursuing.

Regards,

Dave Mead
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jan 16 14:20:28 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jan 16 14:23:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for search engine spiders?
In-Reply-To: <ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Mxp5Fyos+UrFFw1z@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>, David
Mead <davidjohnmead@gmail.com> writes

>Would microformats be the way forward to mark defined areas of a web
>page for the sake of search engine spiders?  When anyone looks at a
>web page the instinctively break it into navigation, content,
>advertisements etc. What if we had standard names (microformats) to
>wrap these areas in to work in conjunction with the sitemaps.org
>standard in aiding the spiders to differentiate between the content
>area and, say, text-ads area.

I like the idea in principle, but I would imagine that few publishers
(particularly, no commercial organisations) would want to explicitly
label adverts, because that will make it easier for users and user
agents to ignore (i.e. not display) their contents, thereby reducing
their potential revenue (a comparison might be made with way TV
companies were forced to drop markers for adverts, by the advertisers)

-- 
Andy Mabbett

        <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                Welcome to the 13-day week!
From aaronc at stanford.edu  Tue Jan 16 14:57:13 2007
From: aaronc at stanford.edu (Aaron Cole)
Date: Tue Jan 16 14:57:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats on index pages or detail pages or both?
Message-ID: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>

I've been hearing about microformats for quite awhile now, but the  
concept finally clicked with me over the last few months.  I've since  
been adding hCard and hEvent markup whenever I can, but I've come  
onto a fundamental question.

Do I add microformat markup to index pages or to detail pages that  
provide more detail or both?

A "Staff" page which lists all the people in an organization would be  
an example of an "index" page, whereas the page you get to by  
clicking on one of the names would be the detail page.  Which page do  
I add the microformat to?

If the answer is both, then how will the user agent handle the  
differences?  (This last question may be just something to ponder.)

Thanks for indulging a newbie!

Aaron


----------------------------------------------------------
Web Developer
University Communications
Stanford University

aaronc@stanford.edu
650.723.6970




From john at westciv.com  Tue Jan 16 14:59:59 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Tue Jan 16 15:01:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for search engine spiders?
In-Reply-To: <ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A1E7796-2CCB-4F59-879F-13FC2775E1C8@westciv.com>

David,

> Myself and a colleague were discussing microformats today and we
> started wandering off on a tangent about the following.
>
> Would microformats be the way forward to mark defined areas of a web
> page for the sake of search engine spiders?  When anyone looks at a
> web page the instinctively break it into navigation, content,
> advertisements etc. What if we had standard names (microformats) to
> wrap these areas in to work in conjunction with the sitemaps.org
> standard in aiding the spiders to differentiate between the content
> area and, say, text-ads area.  You could then delve deeper into the
> XML file of your sitemap and tell it visit certain pages every day and
> then specify which section of that page they should concentrate on.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing if this a good use of microformats and
> whether it's worth pursuing.

Something related I started a while back, and on which I am speaking  
at IA summit is work on what I have called webpatterns

http://webpatterns.org

It's a pattern language approach to the architecture of web pages and  
sites.

My initial thoughts, and some quantitative research into the use of  
semantics in this way I published as "webpatterns and websemantics"  
late in 2005.

http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html

This work (which has interested me for years) is what brought me to  
microformats, as there are, IMO, many overlaps. In one sense you an  
categorize microformats as a subset of a broader pattern language for  
web design, focussing specifically on "data" (that's just conjecture  
at this stage, btw).
I actually don't think an XML sitemap file really would be required,  
because, like hAtom, the pages are "self annotating".

I'd be interested in your thoughts (and those of anyone interested in  
ufs)

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher
Web Directions North, Vancouver Feb 6-10 :: http:// 
north.webdirections.org


From strategicpause at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 15:22:45 2007
From: strategicpause at gmail.com (Nick Peters)
Date: Tue Jan 16 15:22:50 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats on index pages or detail pages or both?
In-Reply-To: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>
References: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <d52ba3070701161522l77218bcbye0519482f35039cd@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/16/07, Aaron Cole <aaronc@stanford.edu> wrote:
> Do I add microformat markup to index pages or to detail pages that
> provide more detail or both?
>
> A "Staff" page which lists all the people in an organization would be
> an example of an "index" page, whereas the page you get to by
> clicking on one of the names would be the detail page.  Which page do
> I add the microformat to?

It can't hurt to mark both up.  On the index page you can include the
basic hCard information while on the individual's site, you can
include a detailed version of that person's hCard.  Flock does
something similar to what you're talking about at
http://www.flock.com/about

> If the answer is both, then how will the user agent handle the
> differences?  (This last question may be just something to ponder.)

The user agent will show two different hCards.  You should check out
the firefox extension tails
(http://blog.codeeg.com/tails-firefox-extension) and Operator
(https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/) to get a better idea of
what data will show up on each hCard.
From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan 16 17:36:54 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan 16 17:37:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for search engine spiders?
In-Reply-To: <ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca111b2b0701161356i3989f6afy171dcb2387ad80df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41AF9752-4E81-444F-B412-80CE2DD6DCA6@technorati.com>

On Jan 16, 2007, at 1:56 PM, David Mead wrote:

> Myself and a colleague were discussing microformats today and we
> started wandering off on a tangent about the following.
>
> Would microformats be the way forward to mark defined areas of a web
> page for the sake of search engine spiders?  When anyone looks at a
> web page the instinctively break it into navigation, content,
> advertisements etc. What if we had standard names (microformats) to
> wrap these areas in to work in conjunction with the sitemaps.org
> standard in aiding the spiders to differentiate between the content
> area and, say, text-ads area.  You could then delve deeper into the
> XML file of your sitemap and tell it visit certain pages every day and
> then specify which section of that page they should concentrate on.

Hi David, welcome to the list.

I have 2 answers to your question.

First, in many ways it doesn't matter whether the consuming agent is  
a search engine or a different kind of User Agent, they all get the  
same value and use the same semantics.

Second, a long long time ago, on a website far away (the Technorati  
developer's wiki, which was precursor to microformats.org), there was  
research into a microformat for excluding parts of a page from robots  
[1]. The initiative died and frankly wasn't very close to user  
practice on the web. Anyway, it's probably worth taking a look at  
anyway.

-ryan

1. http://microformats.org/wiki/robots-exclusion
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 21:57:45 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Tue Jan 16 21:58:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline style conflict?
In-Reply-To: <BAY114-DAV808123126A6888B1DA7ECB7B40@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY114-DAV206CA89EE663C63622B99B7B20@phx.gbl>
	<BAY114-DAV808123126A6888B1DA7ECB7B40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701162157h297d95c4hcab3e95f6d89fc1b@mail.gmail.com>

I think there's no definitive answer -- only that "it depends".
Furthermore, you can actually do whatever you like, but the parsers
may or may not pick up content that is hidden from the user's view.

This is clearly an area of some considerable disagreement though I'm
inclined to err on the side of only *expecting* that human visible
microformatted data will ever be treated consistently; hidden data
will be treated as such -- which means you can hope for the best and
simply do a lot of testing.

Chris

On 1/16/07, EC <xymox12@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Hi,
>
> Thanks everyone for your input, most interesting.
>
> Again I am wondering why when the code is an hCard it has been moved in the
> hCalender problematic section? Note: the hCard FAQs are different to the
> hCalender FAQs and do not mention problems using display:none. Do the
> microformat specifications state that the visibility of data is a necessity,
> or is this a usability issue rather than a microformat markup issue?
>
> I am going to remove in the near future the <img> from the hCard. It was
> initially meant to be an experiment to see how the available microformat
> parsers in Firefox handled the display:none style. I was aware before adding
> the style the implications involved with hiding data with respect to spam,
> SEO etc. I can understand that hiding data in microformats may be unwanted,
> and abused.
>
> The question is can using valid css markup (eg style="display:none") lead to
>
> a) invalid microformat markup? or
> b) valid microformat markup that 'may' display different data depending on
> user and/or is 'possibly' undesirable eg spam? If (b) is the case then
> surely this isn't a microformat issue at all but the older issues of
> usability and using CSS responsibly?
>
>
> TIA
>
> Euan Cameron
>
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: EC [mailto:xymox12@hotmail.com]
> Sent: 10 January 2007 12:02
> To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> Subject: Inline style conflict?
>
> Hi there,
>
> I notice the site Theatre Studies: European Theatre
> (http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/) has been placed in the problem
> section of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild due to
> the use of inline style (style="display:none") used within an img tag.
>
> Here is the code in question:
> <span class="vcard">
> <img style="display:none"
> src="http://www.theatrestudies.llc.ed.ac.uk/images/staff/scolvin.jpg"
> alt="Sarah Colvin" class="photo" />
> <span class="honorific-prefix">Professor </span> <span
> style="font-weight:bold" class="fn">Sarah Colvin</span><br />
> Email: <a href="mailto:sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk"
> class="email">sarah.colvin@ed.ac.uk</a>
> </span>
>
> I am not sure why this has been done as:
> A) the img is part a hCard and not an hCalender, although both exist on the
> page
> B) using a correctly formatted css inline markup to hide the img from the
> browser renderers cannot, surely, conflict with  microformat semantic
> markup. Having read the brainstorming hCard FAQ I initially used  <span
> style="display:none"></span> around the img tag - however I see no reason in
> this case to add the extra markup around the img tag. ( The is the future
> 'Proposed
> Additions'(http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Use_of_CSS_compute
> d_styles_instead_of_HTML_default_styles) but this is for text formating, as
> far as I can see, so it wouldn't interfere with an img file getting parsed
> correctly.)
>
> Using the Tails (0.3.6) Firefox add-on correctly parses the microformat
> content on this page including the image.
>
> Can anyone explain why the inline css style (display:none) cannot co-exist
> (ignoring the benefits of using external style sheets rather than inline
> css) with the microformat semantic markup. I'm probably missing something
> obvious here, so thanks for any advice.
>
> Cheers
>
> Euan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 23:26:18 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Tue Jan 16 23:26:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <372486.6201.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <372486.6201.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701162326j2c59f1a7u21762ad9a63568c2@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/13/07, Tim White <tjameswhite@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >In message
> ><d4fa3cf70701121311o39ffed4dq1524d70528564dda@mail.gmail.com>, Michael
> >McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> writes
> >
> >>are the people who are voting for "hCite"
> >>intending the capital C?
> >
> >Not me:
> >
> >                hCite = uF name
> >                hcite = root class name
> >
>
> I concur with Andy. I was refereeing to hCite as the name.
>
> Seems we are reaching consensus on hcite as the root.
>
> +1 hcite

I agree that this seems like a consensus on 'hcite' as the root class name.
I have updated the examples on citation-brainstorming to reflect this,
and added a note to the working straw schema.

There is a note about using <cite> as the recommended root element - I
don't feel strongly about this - does anyone else? I suppose a final
standard should have a note to suggest using <cite> when appropriate,
but I'm not concerned about it now.

> However, I still have my original question -- at one point there were "cite" and "citation" explorations going on. I believe the "cite" was related to blog posting (citing one post in another). Has this been renamed?

I, for one, don't know.

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 05:11:33 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan 17 05:11:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701162326j2c59f1a7u21762ad9a63568c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <372486.6201.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701162326j2c59f1a7u21762ad9a63568c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701170511h5d54b7f5wb51829e9fb8091a7@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/17/07, Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a note about using <cite> as the recommended root element - I
> don't feel strongly about this - does anyone else? I suppose a final
> standard should have a note to suggest using <cite> when appropriate,
> but I'm not concerned about it now.

--- i don't feel it is appropriate for us to mandate how to encode
microformats. If i want to create a citation in prose inside a
paragraph, then i should be able to 'hang' the class="hcite" on the
block-level <p> or <div>. Microformats are all about NOT changing
user's behavior, but forcing the use of the inline <cite> element we
are defining that behavior.

That said, the <cite> element does certainly convey some additional
semantics and SHOULD be used, but i would avoid MUST. This parallels
the <address> element discussion for several other formats.

-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From hodson.tim at googlemail.com  Wed Jan 17 06:01:53 2007
From: hodson.tim at googlemail.com (Tim Hodson)
Date: Wed Jan 17 06:01:57 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats on index pages or detail pages or both?
In-Reply-To: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>
References: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <14596d040701170601p728a9711w7c1021f222fae916@mail.gmail.com>

On 16/01/07, Aaron Cole <aaronc@stanford.edu> wrote:
> I've been hearing about microformats for quite awhile now, but the
> concept finally clicked with me over the last few months.  I've since
> been adding hCard and hEvent markup whenever I can, but I've come
> onto a fundamental question.
>
> Do I add microformat markup to index pages or to detail pages that
> provide more detail or both?
>
> A "Staff" page which lists all the people in an organization would be
> an example of an "index" page, whereas the page you get to by
> clicking on one of the names would be the detail page.  Which page do
> I add the microformat to?
>
> If the answer is both, then how will the user agent handle the
> differences?  (This last question may be just something to ponder.)

If the user agent is a browser that is only looking at one page at a
time, it will only see one set of hcard for the person.  Not a
problem.

If the user agent is a bot, then the owner of the bot will have to
consider how they dedupe/disambiguate the data that the bot has found.
 After all a person may have contact details on more then one
webpage/site, i.e. a homepage or a page with details of a conference
event or work contact page...

Best,
Tim
-- 
Tim Hodson
informationtakesover.co.uk
www.timhodson.co.uk
From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 17 06:29:44 2007
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Wed Jan 17 06:29:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [citation] citation root element
Message-ID: <570008.80402.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On 1/17/2007 Brian Suda said:
>--- i don't feel it is appropriate for us to mandate how to encode
>microformats. If i want to create a citation in prose inside a
>paragraph, then i should be able to 'hang' the class="hcite" on the
>block-level <p> or <div>. Microformats are all about NOT changing
>user's behavior, but forcing the use of the inline <cite> element we
>are defining that behavior.
>
>That said, the <cite> element does certainly convey some additional
>semantics and SHOULD be used, but i would avoid MUST. This parallels
>the <address> element discussion for several other formats.
>
>-brian


Complete agreement; recommend using <cite> but not a mandate.
 
~ Tim

tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com





 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate 
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367

From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 08:53:36 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 17 08:53:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>

Looking at the examples on citation-examples, I find the following
frequencies of marking up a date:

publication date: 21
date accessed: 3
date copyrighted: 1 (from OCLC worldcat online)

I just added date-accessed to the working straw schema.

Certainly all three are useful, but can we find more examples for the last two?
I'd be more comfortable having a 'date copyrighted' field in the uf if
there was more than one real-world example on the wiki.

If there is another date field that you think is useful, now would be
a good time to add examples of its use and discuss it.

Also, I assume the date fields should use abbr:
<abbr class="date-published" title="ISOdate">date text</abbr>
however, many publications have only years, or just years and months -
it would be good to have a recommendation about what to do in that
case. Would <span class="date-published">2007</span> be acceptable, or
should we insist on the full ISO date?
The problem is how we would know to ignore the month and day in the
full date if they're just there to satisfy parsers.

Thanks,
-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 09:11:18 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:11:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701170911r69f32d11m16ae183e6542881f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/17/07, Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looking at the examples on citation-examples, I find the following
> frequencies of marking up a date:
>
> publication date: 21
> date accessed: 3
> date copyrighted: 1 (from OCLC worldcat online)
>
> I just added date-accessed to the working straw schema.
>
> Certainly all three are useful, but can we find more examples for the last two?
> I'd be more comfortable having a 'date copyrighted' field in the uf if
> there was more than one real-world example on the wiki.

--- the other senario is to strip this down to the basics for a
version 1 and NOT include those lesser used dates, then use hCite for
awhile, see what falls down and itterate?

> If there is another date field that you think is useful, now would be
> a good time to add examples of its use and discuss it.

--- the best way to do this is not to just suggest a datetime you
want, but as Michael mentioned, fine examples!

> Also, I assume the date fields should use abbr:
> <abbr class="date-published" title="ISOdate">date text</abbr>
> however, many publications have only years, or just years and months -
> it would be good to have a recommendation about what to do in that
> case. Would <span class="date-published">2007</span> be acceptable, or
> should we insist on the full ISO date?

--- YYYY is a valid year[1]. The tricky things is when you are
converting an hCite to a variety of different non-HTML formats then a
Month Day might be required and can be added as 01-01 (but i'm open to
other interpretations)

> The problem is how we would know to ignore the month and day in the
> full date if they're just there to satisfy parsers.

--- in my start of crafting XSLT files i was converting hCite to
BibTeX. BibTeX has seperate Month, Day, Year and the parser extracts
those independatly from a single ISO date. If those are NULL then the
first of the Month,Year are valid.

There was the same discussion awhile about about how to mark-up
"Fall", "Spring", ... Then there is the weird senario in the UK where
some Magazines come-out a month before their publication date.

-brian

[1] - http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From joe at andrieu.net  Wed Jan 17 09:24:20 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:24:14 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005301c73a5c$54136d30$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>

Michael McCracken wrote:
> Looking at the examples on citation-examples, I find the 
> following frequencies of marking up a date:
> 
> publication date: 21
> date accessed: 3
> date copyrighted: 1 (from OCLC worldcat online)


Actually, date accessed has at least three more examples:
  umich
  ning
  Google

However, they use "retrieved" rather than accessed, although it is the
same meaning.

> I just added date-accessed to the working straw schema.

Great.

> Certainly all three are useful, but can we find more examples 
> for the last two? I'd be more comfortable having a 'date 
> copyrighted' field in the uf if there was more than one 
> real-world example on the wiki.

What would be the right way to make the "retrieved" and "accessed"
labels as synonymous?

-j


--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651

From jackw-uf at jounce.net  Wed Jan 17 09:34:29 2007
From: jackw-uf at jounce.net (M. Jackson Wilkinson )
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:34:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701170911r69f32d11m16ae183e6542881f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701170911r69f32d11m16ae183e6542881f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45AE5E25.8000103@jounce.net>

Brian Suda wrote:
 >> publication date: 21
 >> date accessed: 3
 >> date copyrighted: 1 (from OCLC worldcat online)
 >>
 >
 > --- the other senario is to strip this down to the basics for a
 > version 1 and NOT include those lesser used dates, then use hCite for
 > awhile, see what falls down and itterate?

I'm confident that we could come up with other examples of "date 
accessed" use in the wild, as it's very much a requirement of academic 
citations of potentially-transient resources, such as web pages, 
regardless of that page's likelihood to change.

I haven't seen much need for "date-copyrighted," so I'd second removing 
that one from an initial spec.

 > There was the same discussion awhile about about how to mark-up
 > "Fall", "Spring", ... Then there is the weird senario in the UK where
 > some Magazines come-out a month before their publication date.

This is the case with many American magazines to which I subscribe as 
well, for what it's worth.

-J
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 09:49:03 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:49:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <005301c73a5c$54136d30$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
	<005301c73a5c$54136d30$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701170949j49789f89o1e9801f218bdedb9@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/17/07, Joe Andrieu <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
> Michael McCracken wrote:
> > Looking at the examples on citation-examples, I find the
> > following frequencies of marking up a date:
> >
> > publication date: 21
> > date accessed: 3
> > date copyrighted: 1 (from OCLC worldcat online)
>
>
> Actually, date accessed has at least three more examples:
>   umich
>   ning
>   Google

Thanks - I thought I'd counted those also, guess I forgot. :)

> However, they use "retrieved" rather than accessed, although it is the
> same meaning.
>
> > I just added date-accessed to the working straw schema.
>
> Great.
>
> > Certainly all three are useful, but can we find more examples
> > for the last two? I'd be more comfortable having a 'date
> > copyrighted' field in the uf if there was more than one
> > real-world example on the wiki.
>
> What would be the right way to make the "retrieved" and "accessed"
> labels as synonymous?

I don't fully understand the question? Do you mean to allow using
either as a class name?
I think just having one in the uf, and if necessary noting that they
mean the same thing, should be enough.

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 09:55:18 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:55:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <45AE5E25.8000103@jounce.net>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701170911r69f32d11m16ae183e6542881f@mail.gmail.com>
	<45AE5E25.8000103@jounce.net>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701170955h226b5551pe416acdaea27a982@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/17/07, M. Jackson Wilkinson <jackw-uf@jounce.net> wrote:
> Brian Suda wrote:
>  >> publication date: 21
>  >> date accessed: 3
>  >> date copyrighted: 1 (from OCLC worldcat online)
>  >>
>  >
>  > --- the other senario is to strip this down to the basics for a
>  > version 1 and NOT include those lesser used dates, then use hCite for
>  > awhile, see what falls down and itterate?
>
> I'm confident that we could come up with other examples of "date
> accessed" use in the wild, as it's very much a requirement of academic
> citations of potentially-transient resources, such as web pages,
> regardless of that page's likelihood to change.
>
> I haven't seen much need for "date-copyrighted," so I'd second removing
> that one from an initial spec.

Yes, on further review, OCLC worldcat uses date-copyrighted, but has
no date-published, leading me to believe that it means date-published,
because they are often the same date. (An interesting table with extra
info about this is at
http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/training/Hirtle_Public_Domain.htm)

So I would also vote to remove date-copyrighted, and consider adding
it in a later revision if necessary. If no-one objects today, I'll
remove date-copyrighted and add a note pointing to this discussion.

-mike

>  > There was the same discussion awhile about about how to mark-up
>  > "Fall", "Spring", ... Then there is the weird senario in the UK where
>  > some Magazines come-out a month before their publication date.
>
> This is the case with many American magazines to which I subscribe as
> well, for what it's worth.
>
> -J
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From joe at andrieu.net  Wed Jan 17 10:05:47 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:05:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701170949j49789f89o1e9801f218bdedb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005401c73a62$1e7182b0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>

Michael McCracken wrote:
> On 1/17/07, Joe Andrieu <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
> > Actually, date accessed has at least three more examples:
> >   umich
> >   ning
> >   Google
> >
> > However, they use "retrieved" rather than accessed, 
> although it is the 
> > same meaning.
> >
> > What would be the right way to make the "retrieved" and "accessed" 
> > labels as synonymous?
> 
> I don't fully understand the question? Do you mean to allow 
> using either as a class name? I think just having one in the 
> uf, and if necessary noting that they mean the same thing, 
> should be enough.

Sorry, Mike. I wasn't very clear. 

I meant as far as the wiki is concerned. I doubt this is the first time,
nor will it be the last time, that the "retrieved" dates get missed in
the scan for "accessed" dates.

Certainly for the uF, one class name is plenty.

-j


--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651



From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 10:21:08 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:21:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <005401c73a62$1e7182b0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170949j49789f89o1e9801f218bdedb9@mail.gmail.com>
	<005401c73a62$1e7182b0$0201a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701171021g672f7d3bs9cb70b0a2a11eb7e@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/17/07, Joe Andrieu <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
> Michael McCracken wrote:
> > On 1/17/07, Joe Andrieu <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
> > > Actually, date accessed has at least three more examples:
> > >   umich
> > >   ning
> > >   Google
> > >
> > > However, they use "retrieved" rather than accessed,
> > although it is the
> > > same meaning.
> > >
> > > What would be the right way to make the "retrieved" and "accessed"
> > > labels as synonymous?
> >
> > I don't fully understand the question? Do you mean to allow
> > using either as a class name? I think just having one in the
> > uf, and if necessary noting that they mean the same thing,
> > should be enough.
>
> Sorry, Mike. I wasn't very clear.
>
> I meant as far as the wiki is concerned. I doubt this is the first time,
> nor will it be the last time, that the "retrieved" dates get missed in
> the scan for "accessed" dates.
>
> Certainly for the uF, one class name is plenty.

Ah, OK. For the wiki, why not just s/retrieved/accessed/ and add a
footnote to each case where that substitution was made to note the
original value, so it still maps back to the examples? (Assuming that
the different terms stem from differences in the examples)

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From leikam at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 17 10:40:08 2007
From: leikam at yahoo.com (Michael Leikam)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:40:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <C1CEF22C.85079%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070117184009.38592.qmail@web33604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I'd be interested in a get together at the end of the
month.  To that end, I've created a wiki page with my
suggestion. 

Feel free to make other suggestions on the page:
http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-la-microformats-gettogether-planning

-ml

--- Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:

> On 1/13/07 7:24 AM, "josh lucas" <josh@stonecottage.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Part of it depends on Tantak's schedule just a bit
> since it would be
> > great if he could attend while he was down here.  We
> can definitely
> > have it at EarthLink and then move somewhere with food
> and drink
> > afterwards if that is agreeable.
> > 
> > How about I throw out a date and we can move on from
> there?  I'm
> > thinking Tuesday, January 30.
> 
> Hi Josh, thanks for spearheading an LA microformats
> meetup.
> 
> I will be in LA from Thursday January 25th, through
> Monday January 29th, so
> unfortunately the 30th does not work for me.
> 
> Perhaps you could start a page on the wiki where folks in
> the LA/SoCal area
> can express interest and preferences?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tantek
> 
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> 

From john at westciv.com  Wed Jan 17 17:15:17 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Wed Jan 17 17:16:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Upcoming microformats book with Friends of Ed
In-Reply-To: <9014C704-BC5D-4779-9120-C7F09BFF6474@westciv.com>
References: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED1@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<9014C704-BC5D-4779-9120-C7F09BFF6474@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <38AE78CD-2800-44DB-A2EA-57A0179EC883@westciv.com>

Hi all,

it's no great secret, but many people on the list probably won't know  
I've been working on a book solely on microformats for Friends of Ed,  
the web design/development focussed offshoot of Apress, these last  
few months. Apart from Brian Suda's PDF book, and of course chapters  
in some books, for example Tantek's Chapter in a recent O'Reilly  
publication, this will be as far as we are aware, the first dead tree  
book entirely devoted to microformats.
Often when books on brand new subject areas come out, they are  
underwritten by a company (who are strongly associated with or own  
the technology, product etc), and who guarantee to purchase a certain  
number of copies, or have other sweeteners. So much kudos to Friends  
of Ed, and editor Chris Mills for having faith almost 10 months ago  
now in a book on ufs. I hope their faith will be repaid, and I have a  
feeling it will.

Brian Suda has been the tech editor, which has been utterly  
invaluable, and I've really tried to cover the field in terms of  
developments, publications using ufs, plugins and other tools, and so  
on. The microformats community definitely gets very extensive  
coverage - people, processes and principles.

The book is well into copy editing now (it will most likely be  
published at the end of March), and a couple of things I just wanted  
to bring to the attention of the uf community, along with of course  
its existence.

I'v needed to gain a lot of permissions for the use of things like  
screenshots - which is easy (in theory) when you have an individual  
developer, or small company (and even large companies like Yahoo and  
Google) -  that is, an individual or entity who "owns" the  
intellectual property. By the way, a very big thank you once more to  
those on this list for your permissions.

With a community, it's a little trickier. Chris Messina raised the  
issue with the suggestion of a community mark, which has been  
discussed to some extent here and elsewhere.

http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/14/the-case-for-community-marks/
http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/05/29/why-barcamp-is-a-community-mark/

Now, most of the "official" output of the community is explicitly  
licensed under CC attribution licenses (though I've also got in touch  
with the developers of this material where practicable where I've  
used it, as a courtesy).
The publishers are keen to incorporate the microformats logo into the  
cover. I've run this by a couple of people, including Dan Cederholm,  
who designed the icon, and who discusses the design of the icon a  
little in the book. Dan is absolutely fine with the idea of the icon  
being incorporated.

I think that its something of benefit to both the book, and the  
community - it allows people to see at a glance what the book is  
about - and as such a strong, eye catching logo, it will hopefully  
stand out. Hopefully too, the book will help in its own little way to  
further establish the strength and value of ufs, and to help build  
the base of publishers using them. To tell the truth, that was  
probably as strong a motivator for me with writing the book as any  
(I've turned down more than one book over the last decade - as anyone  
who writes one will tell you, they are a lot of work, and pay about  
as well as making pizzas did when I was a student ;-) I thought this  
was a book really worth writing, and luckily, one publisher was  
willing to take a punt on it.

I do hope it will be a small milestone (and not a large millstone) in  
the evolution and development of microformats.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have,

john

p.s. I'm working as hard as I can to have as much of it freely  
available as possible. I'm not sure that this means the whole thing  
will be, or at least not just yet, in fact that's not really likely,  
but hopefully valuable parts of it will be.

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher
Web Directions North, Vancouver Feb 6-10 :: http:// 
north.webdirections.org


From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 17:31:03 2007
From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy)
Date: Wed Jan 17 17:31:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Upcoming microformats book with Friends of Ed
In-Reply-To: <38AE78CD-2800-44DB-A2EA-57A0179EC883@westciv.com>
References: <C758DF305837284A8DA71883046BC74E01D0FED1@bbcxue219.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<9014C704-BC5D-4779-9120-C7F09BFF6474@westciv.com>
	<38AE78CD-2800-44DB-A2EA-57A0179EC883@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <8a52ddad0701171731i430a245bm736a9ab8b64f7e1d@mail.gmail.com>

This is great news. Congratulations and kudos to you, John, for such a
great effort.  But, please, tell us the title of the book, so I could
preorder it in the closest Dymocks. Thanks for that!

P.S. Hopefully I could get you to sign it for me.
From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Jan 18 04:46:56 2007
From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell)
Date: Thu Jan 18 04:46:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Aggregation of vevents in vcalendar [newbie]
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>

Hi,

My work concerns TV & Radio schedules so I was immediately attracted to the hCalendar microformat.

My first impression is that the vevent element appears to provide a comprehensive representation of individual events but the vcalendar element provides a very limited functionality. To quote the hCalendar spec:

"Authors may explicitly use elements with class="vcalendar" to wrap sets of vevents that all belong to the same calendar, e.g. when publishing multiple calendars on the same page."

This suggests that vcalendar can be used to group events that are related to each other e.g. they form a schedule. However, no descriptive metadata properties have been defined for vcalendar, which apply to the calendar as a whole (e.g. schedule name, description etc) rather than the individual events.

The iCalendar spec (RFC2445) provides a precedent for vcalendar properties but the few it defines aren't terribly useful. Were vcalendar properties ever considered in the past (I can't find any discussion in the archive) and would a proposal be considered?

Chris

From josh at stonecottage.com  Thu Jan 18 06:48:32 2007
From: josh at stonecottage.com (josh lucas)
Date: Thu Jan 18 06:48:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <20070117184009.38592.qmail@web33604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20070117184009.38592.qmail@web33604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DC1EC44D-C6A8-4DEC-A0A2-160448035CE8@stonecottage.com>

Michael -

Thanks for creating the page!  I just added another option for  
Friday, the 26th at the EarthLink office though I'm totally fine with  
your suggestion for Saturday as well.


josh


On Jan 17, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Michael Leikam wrote:

>
> I'd be interested in a get together at the end of the
> month.  To that end, I've created a wiki page with my
> suggestion.
>
> Feel free to make other suggestions on the page:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-la-microformats- 
> gettogether-planning
>
> -ml
>
> --- Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 1/13/07 7:24 AM, "josh lucas" <josh@stonecottage.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Part of it depends on Tantak's schedule just a bit
>> since it would be
>>> great if he could attend while he was down here.  We
>> can definitely
>>> have it at EarthLink and then move somewhere with food
>> and drink
>>> afterwards if that is agreeable.
>>>
>>> How about I throw out a date and we can move on from
>> there?  I'm
>>> thinking Tuesday, January 30.
>>
>> Hi Josh, thanks for spearheading an LA microformats
>> meetup.
>>
>> I will be in LA from Thursday January 25th, through
>> Monday January 29th, so
>> unfortunately the 30th does not work for me.
>>
>> Perhaps you could start a page on the wiki where folks in
>> the LA/SoCal area
>> can express interest and preferences?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tantek
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>>
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 07:20:23 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 18 07:20:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
Message-ID: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>

Pardon the new guy. This may have possibly been discussed before, I'd
be interested in expanding the Vote Links spec to include a
rel="voted-for" ("vote-abstained", "voted-against") linking back to
the originating document. What do you think? I have an implementation
idea and this would come in really handy.

Ara
From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 07:29:02 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Jan 18 07:29:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/01/07, Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pardon the new guy. This may have possibly been discussed before, I'd
> be interested in expanding the Vote Links spec to include a
> rel="voted-for" ("vote-abstained", "voted-against") linking back to
> the originating document. What do you think? I have an implementation
> idea and this would come in really handy.
>

Hi Ara! :)

What's your implementation idea?  May be the case that extending
vote-links isn't necessary (and reuse is always the first port of
call).

F

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 07:40:45 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 18 07:40:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>

The implementation would go something like this:
# Site A lists a bunch of "sites of the month" (rev="vote-for")
# Sites of the month display a "site of the month" icon that links
back to the Site A listing for that month.

A


On 1/18/07, Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18/01/07, Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pardon the new guy. This may have possibly been discussed before, I'd
> > be interested in expanding the Vote Links spec to include a
> > rel="voted-for" ("vote-abstained", "voted-against") linking back to
> > the originating document. What do you think? I have an implementation
> > idea and this would come in really handy.
> >
>
> Hi Ara! :)
>
> What's your implementation idea?  May be the case that extending
> vote-links isn't necessary (and reuse is always the first port of
> call).
>
> F
>
> --
> Frances Berriman
> http://fberriman.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 07:49:34 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Jan 18 07:49:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/01/07, Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:
> The implementation would go something like this:
> # Site A lists a bunch of "sites of the month" (rev="vote-for")
> # Sites of the month display a "site of the month" icon that links
> back to the Site A listing for that month.
>

Could Sites of the Month not just use rev="vote-for"? As in - this
site voted for me.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Thu Jan 18 08:02:29 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:02:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 18 Jan 2007, at 15:49, Frances Berriman wrote:
> Could Sites of the Month not just use rev="vote-for"? As in - this
> site voted for me.

Wrong way around Frances, I think.

? rev="vote-for" ? ?this site is a vote for the href?
? rel="vote-for" ? ?href is a vote for this site?

Your concept is correct, though. It definitely seems like a valid  
case for a rel-vote.

So: <a href="http://back.to/site/a" title="Voted ?site of the month?  
by Site A? rel="vote-for">Site of the Month!</a> could be used to  
indicate your site had been ?voted for? by another.

Ben
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 08:12:15 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:12:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Aggregation of vevents in vcalendar [newbie]
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>
Message-ID: <21e770780701180812j6b3654fcm131346f0cabe09b@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/18/07, Chris Newell <chris.newell@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> My work concerns TV & Radio schedules so I was immediately attracted to the hCalendar microformat.

> The iCalendar spec (RFC2445) provides a precedent for vcalendar properties but the few it defines aren't terribly useful. Were vcalendar properties ever considered in the past (I can't find any discussion in the archive) and would a proposal be considered?

--- the VCALENDAR is 'implied' to be the page. An .ics file contains
one VCALENDAR which contains all of the events. So 1 HTML page = 1
Calendar. Multiple events on an HTML correspond to multiple VEVENT in
the iCalendar.

If you look at the structure of the VCALENDAR it takes only a few
parameters, the calendar type, calendar name (this is taken from the
HTML page <title> element) and a METHOD all of which are usually
metadata purely for machines (except the <title> that is for both).

So to aid adoption, hCalendar makes as little as possible mandatory,
and therefore all the vcalendar data becomes default values which more
than adequately solves the 80/20 issues.

> Were vcalendar properties ever considered in the past (I can't find any discussion in the archive) and would a proposal be considered?

What would the proposal be? microformats are not interested in
X-PARAMs or theoretical "what if's" so if you have a specific issue in
mind please let us know and we can see if it is possible to work-out
with existing formats first.

I hope this help,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 08:13:53 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:13:57 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/01/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 15:49, Frances Berriman wrote:
> > Could Sites of the Month not just use rev="vote-for"? As in - this
> > site voted for me.
>
> Wrong way around Frances, I think.
>
> ? rev="vote-for" ? 'this site is a vote for the href'
> ? rel="vote-for" ? 'href is a vote for this site'
>
> Your concept is correct, though. It definitely seems like a valid
> case for a rel-vote.
>
> So: <a href="http://back.to/site/a" title="Voted 'site of the month'
> by Site A' rel="vote-for">Site of the Month!</a> could be used to
> indicate your site had been 'voted for' by another.

Doh! I think you're right.

Anyway - the rev/rel relationsip basically means you (should) never
have to extend your class names to do the other half of a partnership.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com

From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 08:20:36 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:20:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <923a87360701180820v6438c32auf62638ee72624fe2@mail.gmail.com>

So what would be the next step to adding to the spec? Keep in mind,
I'm new to this process :-)

A.

On 1/18/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 15:49, Frances Berriman wrote:
> > Could Sites of the Month not just use rev="vote-for"? As in - this
> > site voted for me.
>
> Wrong way around Frances, I think.
>
> ? rev="vote-for" ? 'this site is a vote for the href'
> ? rel="vote-for" ? 'href is a vote for this site'
>
> Your concept is correct, though. It definitely seems like a valid
> case for a rel-vote.
>
> So: <a href="http://back.to/site/a" title="Voted 'site of the month'
> by Site A' rel="vote-for">Site of the Month!</a> could be used to
> indicate your site had been 'voted for' by another.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 08:24:23 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:24:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>

Frances,

In the case of rev="vote-for" what would you put in the corresponding rel=""?

A.

On 1/18/07, Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18/01/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 18 Jan 2007, at 15:49, Frances Berriman wrote:
> > > Could Sites of the Month not just use rev="vote-for"? As in - this
> > > site voted for me.
> >
> > Wrong way around Frances, I think.
> >
> > ? rev="vote-for" ? 'this site is a vote for the href'
> > ? rel="vote-for" ? 'href is a vote for this site'
> >
> > Your concept is correct, though. It definitely seems like a valid
> > case for a rel-vote.
> >
> > So: <a href="http://back.to/site/a" title="Voted 'site of the month'
> > by Site A' rel="vote-for">Site of the Month!</a> could be used to
> > indicate your site had been 'voted for' by another.
>
> Doh! I think you're right.
>
> Anyway - the rev/rel relationsip basically means you (should) never
> have to extend your class names to do the other half of a partnership.
>
> --
> Frances Berriman
> http://fberriman.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 08:35:29 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:36:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/01/07, Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frances,
>
> In the case of rev="vote-for" what would you put in the corresponding rel=""?

The same.  The distinction of meaning comes from the use of rel or rev
(which clearly I keep mixing up, so I won't state it again).

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-rel

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From mark at geekhive.net  Thu Jan 18 08:42:27 2007
From: mark at geekhive.net (Mark)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:44:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Validator
In-Reply-To: <C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>
	<C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070118164227.GA26096@who.int>

Tantek ?elik wrote:
> <http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/http://wikevent.org/en/San_Francisco/Canvas_Gallery>
> 
> X2V / Technorati Contacts Feed service can often be used to make sure that
> you've marked up your hCards correctly.  Similarly with events and the
> Events Feed service[2].

OK, I *think* I've made all of the changes you recommended for the
hCards.  Of course I've almost certainly messed something up here or
there, but it does seem to work.

I realize this is more of a Technorati question, but is it acceptable to
put a the feeds.technorati.com link on each page which contains at least
one hCard?  I'd love to provide the users with an hCard and Calendar
feed.

Thanks!

-mark



-- 
--
=================================================================
-- mark at geekhive dot net --
From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Jan 18 08:45:18 2007
From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:45:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Aggregation of vevents in vcalendar [newbie]
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701180812j6b3654fcm131346f0cabe09b@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>
	<21e770780701180812j6b3654fcm131346f0cabe09b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118162426.028f8c98@pop3>

At 16:12 18/01/2007, you wrote:
>On 1/18/07, Chris Newell <chris.newell@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>>The iCalendar spec (RFC2445) provides a precedent for vcalendar properties but the few it defines aren't terribly useful. Were vcalendar properties ever considered in the past (I can't find any discussion in the archive) and would a proposal be considered?
>
>--- the VCALENDAR is 'implied' to be the page. An .ics file contains
>one VCALENDAR which contains all of the events. So 1 HTML page = 1
>Calendar.

Doesn't this contradict the specification? Quoting from http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar it says: "Authors may explicitly use elements with class="vcalendar" to wrap sets of vevents that all belong to the same calendar, e.g. when publishing multiple calendars on the same page".

>Multiple events on an HTML correspond to multiple VEVENT in
>the iCalendar.
>
>If you look at the structure of the VCALENDAR it takes only a few
>parameters, the calendar type, calendar name (this is taken from the
>HTML page <title> element) and a METHOD all of which are usually
>metadata purely for machines (except the <title> that is for both).

Could you point me to where this is documented. I've had good look at the server but can't find this anywhere.

Cheers,

Chris 

From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 08:50:22 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:50:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah except that the spec states that rel "describes the relationship
from the current document to the anchor specified by the href
attribute". So putting "vote-for" in the description would be an
incorrect description. Rather, I think "voted-for" would be a more apt
description to the related link.

Your thoughts?
A.

On 1/18/07, Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18/01/07, Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Frances,
> >
> > In the case of rev="vote-for" what would you put in the corresponding rel=""?
>
> The same.  The distinction of meaning comes from the use of rel or rev
> (which clearly I keep mixing up, so I won't state it again).
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-rel
>
> --
> Frances Berriman
> http://fberriman.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 09:03:06 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:03:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Aggregation of vevents in vcalendar [newbie]
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118162426.028f8c98@pop3>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>
	<21e770780701180812j6b3654fcm131346f0cabe09b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.0.14.2.20070118162426.028f8c98@pop3>
Message-ID: <21e770780701180903l2fd7e557rf23ac38386654c8b@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/18/07, Chris Newell <chris.newell@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Doesn't this contradict the specification? Quoting from http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar it says: "Authors may explicitly use elements with class="vcalendar" to wrap sets of vevents that all belong to the same calendar, e.g. when publishing multiple calendars on the same page".

you can certainly add class="vcalendar", but then you will have
multiple calendars on a single HTML page. This is NOT the default, but
it can be possible. This does cause problems later because then when
you use something like X2V or the other service, you will need to also
specify WHICH calendar you want to extract because you can only
extract one calendar at a time to an .ics file.

If you have a specific senario please let us know, no one has pressed
this issue so all the details have not been fully flushed out yet.

> >Multiple events on an HTML correspond to multiple VEVENT in
> >the iCalendar.
> >
> >If you look at the structure of the VCALENDAR it takes only a few
> >parameters, the calendar type, calendar name (this is taken from the
> >HTML page <title> element) and a METHOD all of which are usually
> >metadata purely for machines (except the <title> that is for both).
>
> Could you point me to where this is documented. I've had good look at the server but can't find this anywhere.

Not sure exactly what you mean here? so i'll have a guess.
If you look at the iCalendar RFC:
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2445.html

a VCALENDAR can take only icalbody as paramaters. icalbody is defined as:

icalbody   = calprops component

     calprops   = 2*(

                ; 'prodid' and 'version' are both REQUIRED,
                ; but MUST NOT occur more than once

                prodid /version /

                ; 'calscale' and 'method' are optional,
                ; but MUST NOT occur more than once

                calscale        /
                method          /

                x-prop

                )


So that gives us ONLY 4 parameters to deal with.PRODID, VERSION,
CALSCALE, METHOD.

PRODID is the product who does the transformation, so this is NOT
something the user can define. VERSION we all are using 3.0, so that
again is not something that the user can update. CALSCALE is optional
and is not used. METHOD is defaulted to PUBLISH for iteroperability
issues with OUTLOOK 200X but is also optional.

So there is NO value in having these as additional parameters
explicitly marked-up in the HTML.

I can see your point about wanting multiple calendar containers to
keep things seperated, but most publishers want to either have ALL of
their events listed on a person's calendar, or have individual HTML
pages for each calendar type and allow users to subscribe to
individual event lists.

Does that make sense?
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Thu Jan 18 09:42:16 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:42:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 18 Jan 2007, at 16:50, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:

> Yeah except that the spec states that rel "describes the relationship
> from the current document to the anchor specified by the href
> attribute". So putting "vote-for" in the description would be an
> incorrect description. Rather, I think "voted-for" would be a more apt
> description to the related link.
>
> Your thoughts?

?The rel and rev attributes play complementary roles -- the rel  
attribute specifies a forward link and the rev attribute specifies a  
reverse link.?
	? http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#rev-link

Starting with rel:

? rel="alternate" means ?the linked document is an alternate  
representation of this page?

Therefore using rev describes a reverse of that definition:

? rev="alternate" would mean ?this page is an alternate  
representation for the linked page?

With vote links:

? rev="vote-for" means ?this page is a vote for the linked page?

and reversed:

? rel="vote-for" means ?the linked page is a vote for this page?


Hope that clarifies the attributes for you, Ara.

Ben
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 09:55:22 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:55:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <923a87360701180955v8f17cafqcfc4e5a18e623900@mail.gmail.com>

> "The rel and rev attributes play complementary roles -- the rel
> attribute specifies a forward link and the rev attribute specifies a
> reverse link."
>         ? http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#rev-link
>
> Starting with rel:
>
> ? rel="alternate" means 'the linked document is an alternate
> representation of this page'
>
> Therefore using rev describes a reverse of that definition:
>
> ? rev="alternate" would mean 'this page is an alternate
> representation for the linked page'
>
> With vote links:
>
> ? rev="vote-for" means 'this page is a vote for the linked page'
>
> and reversed:
>
> ? rel="vote-for" means 'the linked page is a vote for this page'
>
>
> Hope that clarifies the attributes for you, Ara.
>
> Ben

Okay, that makes sense. But that also means that the spec shouldn't
constrain the Vote Links to rev only. Rather it should be expanded to
include both uses and cite proper examples for each. N'est pas?

A.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 17 14:23:29 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jan 18 10:36:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5Z60$CwhHqrFFwx9@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>,
Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> writes

>Would <span class="date-published">2007</span> be acceptable, or
>should we insist on the full ISO date?

I thought that both 2007 and 2007-01 were valid ISO dates...

-- 
Andy Mabbett     <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
                        Welcome to the 14-day week!
                <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq>
        "hCard FAQ [...] if you don't find answers, add your questions!"
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 17 14:23:18 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jan 18 10:36:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats on index pages or detail pages or both?
In-Reply-To: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>
References: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <CuHKitvWHqrFFw0g@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>, Aaron
Cole <aaronc@stanford.edu> writes

>Do I add microformat markup to index pages or to detail pages that
>provide more detail or both?


See recent discussion:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#mini_hCard_to_expanded_hCard>

-- 
Andy Mabbett     <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
                        Welcome to the 14-day week!
                <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq>
        "hCard FAQ [...] if you don't find answers, add your questions!"

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 17 14:27:53 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jan 18 10:36:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701170911r69f32d11m16ae183e6542881f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701170911r69f32d11m16ae183e6542881f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <$ZY1fqwpLqrFFwwD@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e770780701170911r69f32d11m16ae183e6542881f@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> writes

>Then there is the weird senario in the UK where
>some Magazines come-out a month before their publication date.

Not some, but "most".

There are magazines which sometimes produce 13 monthly (or, rather,
4-weeekly) issues a year, labelled Jan-December, with an additional
"Summer" or "Winter" or suchlike Edition (Q does that, I think).

Then there are bi-monthly magazines, such as the RSPB's former Bird
Notes, dated ?January-February?, ?March-April?, etc. To
complicate matters, Vol. 30, covering 1962?63, included nine issues,
ending with the ?Winter 1963?64? edition:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/biblio/birdnotes/>

-- 
Andy Mabbett     <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
                        Welcome to the 14-day week!
                <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq>
        "hCard FAQ [...] if you don't find answers, add your questions!"


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 17 14:34:58 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jan 18 10:36:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] include-pattern: Examples in the Wild
Message-ID: <zpW2z9xSSqrFFwS6@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


To help others interested in using the "include-pattern", I've created:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-examples-in-wild>

Please feel free to add examples of good practice (and examples of pages
with problems) and to critique the examples I've listed there.

-- 
Andy Mabbett     <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
                        Welcome to the 14-day week!
                <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq>
        "hCard FAQ [...] if you don't find answers, add your questions!"

From ryan at technorati.com  Thu Jan 18 10:47:53 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Thu Jan 18 10:47:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Validator
In-Reply-To: <20070118164227.GA26096@who.int>
References: <20070107174555.GA27152@who.int>
	<C1C6952D.84863%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<20070118164227.GA26096@who.int>
Message-ID: <8B01DF29-4DC5-4969-818E-8FED5CFCEA03@technorati.com>

On Jan 18, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Mark wrote:

> Tantek ?elik wrote:
>> <http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/http://wikevent.org/en/ 
>> San_Francisco/Canvas_Gallery>
>>
>> X2V / Technorati Contacts Feed service can often be used to make  
>> sure that
>> you've marked up your hCards correctly.  Similarly with events and  
>> the
>> Events Feed service[2].
>
> OK, I *think* I've made all of the changes you recommended for the
> hCards.  Of course I've almost certainly messed something up here or
> there, but it does seem to work.
>
> I realize this is more of a Technorati question, but is it  
> acceptable to
> put a the feeds.technorati.com link on each page which contains at  
> least
> one hCard?  I'd love to provide the users with an hCard and Calendar
> feed.

Please do. That's the point of the service! :D

-ryan
From scott at randomchaos.com  Thu Jan 18 11:31:36 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Thu Jan 18 11:31:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701180955v8f17cafqcfc4e5a18e623900@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701180955v8f17cafqcfc4e5a18e623900@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CB8E3CE-9840-4DCF-A4EB-87674B1C30E7@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 18, 2007, at 11:55 AM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:

> Okay, that makes sense. But that also means that the spec shouldn't
> constrain the Vote Links to rev only. Rather it should be expanded to
> include both uses and cite proper examples for each. N'est pas?

To clarify, microformats specs don't seek to constrain HTML at all.   
They only describe expected behavior among those who have arrived at  
a rough consensus about specific bits of HTML.  But you're free to,  
and furthermore encouraged to, use other bits of HTML as well.  Not  
every bit of useful HTML semantics belongs in a microformat.  Maybe  
this bit does, or maybe it doesn't, but the lack of a microformat  
should never prevent you from making your own HTML markup more  
descriptive.

Peace,
Scott

From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 12:18:34 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Thu Jan 18 12:18:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] dates
In-Reply-To: <5Z60$CwhHqrFFwx9@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>
	<5Z60$CwhHqrFFwx9@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701181218j2ab062ebkc4a079415f709a43@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/17/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <d4fa3cf70701170853r8db3ba4jfb7ae834e8bf6175@mail.gmail.com>,
> Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> writes
>
>
> >Would <span class="date-published">2007</span> be acceptable, or
> >should we insist on the full ISO date?
>
>
> I thought that both 2007 and 2007-01 were valid ISO dates...

Yes, I was mistaken about how brief ISO dates could be. Just following
existing practice should work fine for dates, it seems.

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 13:23:26 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 18 13:23:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <4CB8E3CE-9840-4DCF-A4EB-87674B1C30E7@randomchaos.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701180955v8f17cafqcfc4e5a18e623900@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CB8E3CE-9840-4DCF-A4EB-87674B1C30E7@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701181323u210bda90u49fd37662d07817f@mail.gmail.com>

> To clarify, microformats specs don't seek to constrain HTML at all.
> They only describe expected behavior among those who have arrived at
> a rough consensus about specific bits of HTML.  But you're free to,
> and furthermore encouraged to, use other bits of HTML as well.  Not
> every bit of useful HTML semantics belongs in a microformat.  Maybe
> this bit does, or maybe it doesn't, but the lack of a microformat
> should never prevent you from making your own HTML markup more
> descriptive.

I agree with the idea that we should first use the semantics offered
by HTML before creating a microformat. But microformats are an
agreement among community members on certain standard usages of
semantic class names and other attributes when the HTML spec either
doesn't supply what's necessary, or more specific uses are required
(as in standardized class names).

What I meant by the word constraint was the fact that the spec for
Vote Links originally stated that you should exclusively use the
rel="" attribute to mark up a Vote Link, and then was changed to more
correctly reflect the nature of the relationship by using the rev=""
attribute--once again exclusively. This means that according to the
microformats spec for Vote Links, a vote link goes one way. Sure, you
can use a rel attribute to link back, but that doesn't mean that the
usage will be standardized (aggregator friendly, etc...). Hence my
proposal to specify the proper usage of both rev and rel.

I don't agree that you can simply use rel="vote-for" because it
incorrectly gives the impression that you're "voting for" when really
you were "voted for", hence my suggestion to use the following:

rev="vote-for"
rev="vote-against"
rev="vote-abstain"

rel="voted-for"
rel="voted-against"
rel="vote-abstained"

Because really, the relationship isn't the same in both directions.

Your thoughts?
A.
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Jan 18 13:47:52 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jan 18 14:10:51 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Aggregation of vevents in vcalendar [newbie]
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701180903l2fd7e557rf23ac38386654c8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>
	<21e770780701180812j6b3654fcm131346f0cabe09b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.0.14.2.20070118162426.028f8c98@pop3>
	<21e770780701180903l2fd7e557rf23ac38386654c8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ZQwsdsEIs+rFFwVE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e770780701180903l2fd7e557rf23ac38386654c8b@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> writes

>If you have a specific senario please let us know, no one has pressed
>this issue so all the details have not been fully flushed out yet.

>most publishers want to either have ALL of
>their events listed on a person's calendar, or have individual HTML
>pages for each calendar type and allow users to subscribe to
>individual event lists.

Consider:

        <http://tinyurl.com/youmw3>  ['Radio Times' (UK)]
and
        <http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/search/grid.cgi>

where there could be a calendar for each channel (BBC Radio 1, BBC Radio
2, BBC One, BBC Two, etc.)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 15-day week!
From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Thu Jan 18 15:51:01 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Thu Jan 18 15:51:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 4d or A proposal for amendment of the geo microformat
Message-ID: <20070118235101.63203.qmail@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

>This page and effort is failing to follow the
microformats process. If you are the author of this
page, please join the #microformats IRC channel and/or
microformats-discuss mailing list
http://microformats.org/discuss) so that the community
can help walk you through the process. - Tantek
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Tantek and all

It looks like I messed up the process of writing a
page in the wiki. I have not found a way to keep a
page been edited private, before it goes public (there
is no sand box for newbies, or is there one?). But I
was also late to realize that a 4d class name that
sounded proper, would not be valid for CSS, since it
starts with a digit.

I am glad to have found the microformat.org site with
its specifications and the work presented there,
especially the geo microformat. I am interested in
tagging a large number of geo info that goes public,
but there is a time dimension to it.

The title and the content of the former 4d page has
been changed to better reflect my views. I hope I
could get some comments or criticisms on the
feasibility of this proposal. I am not realy
interested in creating another microformat, but rather
to find a way to connect geo to a time dimension and a
reference system, which might not be WGS84.

Thanks a lot.
Dimitrios




	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
?????????????? Yahoo!; 
?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? (spam); ?? Yahoo! Mail 
???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????????? 
????????? http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Thu Jan 18 16:40:53 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Thu Jan 18 16:40:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] 4d or A proposal for amendment of the geo microformat
In-Reply-To: <20070118235101.63203.qmail@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C1D55371.857AA%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

Hello Dimitrios and welcome to the list!


On 1/18/07 3:51 PM, "Dimitrios Zachariadis" <telemetry_mail@yahoo.gr> wrote:

>> This page and effort is failing to follow the
> microformats process. If you are the author of this
> page, please join the #microformats IRC channel and/or
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> http://microformats.org/discuss) so that the community
> can help walk you through the process. - Tantek
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> 
> Hello Tantek and all

Thanks very much for joining the list.  You'll find that there are a lot of
folks here who will help you walk ideas/thoughts/proposals through the
process to hopefully get a reasonably optimum result.


> It looks like I messed up the process of writing a
> page in the wiki. I have not found a way to keep a
> page been edited private, before it goes public (there
> is no sand box for newbies, or is there one?).

If you want to keep a page private, it may be better to simply edit a local
text document and then create a page when ready.  However...


> But I
> was also late to realize that a 4d class name that
> sounded proper, would not be valid for CSS, since it
> starts with a digit.

There are many steps to complete in the process before you start proposing
class names.

Please read http://microformats.org/wiki/process

In particular note that you should state the specific problem you are trying
to solve, then research and document real world *examples* on the web, then
research and document well established interoperably implemented previous
*formats* before *brainstorming*.  When you get to the brainstorming step,
you may want to take a look at existing "geo" brainstorming here:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#geo_improvements


> I am glad to have found the microformat.org site with
> its specifications and the work presented there,
> especially the geo microformat. I am interested in
> tagging a large number of geo info that goes public,
> but there is a time dimension to it.

The URLs for that large number of geo info that is public should be captured
in your examples page that you create.


> The title and the content of the former 4d page has
> been changed to better reflect my views.

Please read the How To Play page for some basics on creating and editing
pages on the microformats wiki.

http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play

In particular, naming conventions:

http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-conventions


> I hope I
> could get some comments or criticisms on the
> feasibility of this proposal.

The primary criticism is not about the specific proposal per se, but more so
the leap to a proposal without first sufficiently documenting the problem
being solved, existing examples, existing formats, per the microformats
process.


> I am not realy
> interested in creating another microformat, but rather
> to find a way to connect geo to a time dimension and a
> reference system, which might not be WGS84.

It actually *does* sound you are looking to create a new microformat which
perhaps embeds a "geo" data item with some additional information to
represent a point in 3D space with a time component.  I think the research
and documentation steps in the process will still be quite useful for this,
even if all you end up with is a set of semantic class names to use, rather
than a microformat.

Thanks,

Tantek

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 05:20:07 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Fri Jan 19 05:20:16 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Aggregation of vevents in vcalendar [newbie]
In-Reply-To: <ZQwsdsEIs+rFFwVE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>
	<21e770780701180812j6b3654fcm131346f0cabe09b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.0.14.2.20070118162426.028f8c98@pop3>
	<21e770780701180903l2fd7e557rf23ac38386654c8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<ZQwsdsEIs+rFFwVE@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <21e770780701190520na398131l5a818cd1bf8521ec@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/18/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> Consider:
>
>         <http://tinyurl.com/youmw3>  ['Radio Times' (UK)]
> and
>         <http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/search/grid.cgi>
>
> where there could be a calendar for each channel (BBC Radio 1, BBC Radio
> 2, BBC One, BBC Two, etc.)


--- true, but to me that says "subscribe to all (everything i see on
this page)" when you click through to an individual Radio/TV page and
only see that calendar, that to me says "Subscribe to this calendar".

It is akin to all the orange RSS buttons you see. Subscribe to
comments, subscribe to RSS, subscribe to RSS and Comments, subscribe
Atom, ....  it is all over-engineered. I think the simple "what you
see is what you get" wins.

Most hCalendar->iCalendars currently do not support vcalendar - that's
not to say they can't, but then the way you create links to extract
individual calendars and an additional requirement if an ID attribute
to differentiate WHICH calendar to extract all becomes necessary.
IMHO, lets keep it as simple as possible right now, unless this
becomes an absolute deal-breaker. I would image that any organization
would WANT people to know about all the eveents accross multiple
calendars rather than having to subscribe to 4-* individual calendars,
but at the same time, you can click through and still have the option
to subscribe to ONLY the calendars you want - it is the best of both
worlds and doesn't require any additional effort.

-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Fri Jan 19 05:32:02 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Fri Jan 19 05:32:07 2007
Subject: =?iso-8859-7?q?=C8=DD=EC=E1:=20Re:=20[uf-discuss]=204d=20or=20A=20proposa?=
	=?iso-8859-7?q?l=20for=20amendment=20of=20the=20geo=20microformat?=
In-Reply-To: <C1D55371.857AA%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070119133202.37533.qmail@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hello Tantek

Thank you for taking the time to explain to me so
kindly the steps needed for a proper introduction of
my ideas/needs.

Here is my Take II on the subject:

I am trying to find a method for tagging geo info
about road related problems. The bulk of information
at present is XSLT transformed XML server responses,
into HTML at the client (browser). I have control of
the XSLT process, but the intent is the HTML produced
with the description of the problem to be tagged in a
standard compact geo format, and released in a verbose
form (e.g. no lat-lon visible, but maybe distances in
km from towns, if at all) to the public (much like the
<abbr class="geo" title="lat;lon"/> form, but not
limited to <abbr>).

The info that interests the public is the description
of the problem and when it happend or reported; the
approximate location of it is needed to establish who
it concerns and who is responsible for it. The EXACT
location is not intended to be visible, as it makes
the text look technical (or rather, unreadable) and
discourages people from reading on, but it MUST be
present, for technical verification by any and
everybody concerned. This information (and HTML) being
in the public domain can be freely copied and pasted
into other pages, news, reports e.t.c.

Many authorities here (i.e. Greece) record and publish
geo information in a modified Transverse Mercator (TM)
reference system, like UTM, a formal standard named
EGSA87, so the capability to directly verify the
published coordinates in this system is important. 

One detail that might answer the question, why not use
a comma ',' as a delimiter, is that many European
countries use comma as a decimal point. A number of
organizations using EGSA87 use a comma as a decimal
delimiter.

The problem I have is that I am in control of the
data, but have no available standard to use, or so I
think. When data becomes public HTML content, few
things can change without breaking other pages copying
this content, and a lot of effort could be wasted. The
reason 'an attribute only' solution is preferred is
that it remains hidden from readers and can be
directly copied without altering the visible content.

I can produce a page with a table of data if that
could help, or an XML file with raw data, or craft a
page with some english text with embedded geo data as
I envisage it (no fancy CSS though). Bonus for the
latter, a little of javascript that reads my proposed
amended geo data and diplays it on Google Maps, on a
click (no <a> elements or any extra tags), or pops an
alert with the data in a more readable form, on
control-shifted click.

I hope the above is a fair description of what is the
problem I'm trying to solve. Hence my interest to
amend the geo microformat with a reference system and
time.

Dimitrios



	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
?????????????? Yahoo!; 
?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? (spam); ?? Yahoo! Mail 
???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????????? 
????????? http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

From chope at enap.com  Fri Jan 19 06:45:57 2007
From: chope at enap.com (Christina Hope)
Date: Fri Jan 19 06:46:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Inline hCard dilemma
Message-ID: <DDED2FC14F60684CA994B68CB130A2250147DD83@enap-eserver.enap.com>

I have somewhat of a dilemma. I'm new to microformats and I am trying to create a listing of all employees at our company.? I would like it to be inline and for all of the "categories" to line up down the page. I'm used to using tables, but I'm sure there is another way around that. Any help would be much appreciated. I am currently doing this all in an include file which can be found here - http://www.enap.com/redesign_07/hcard.inc 

Thanks,
Christina


From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 07:28:46 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Fri Jan 19 07:28:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701181323u210bda90u49fd37662d07817f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701180955v8f17cafqcfc4e5a18e623900@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CB8E3CE-9840-4DCF-A4EB-87674B1C30E7@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701181323u210bda90u49fd37662d07817f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701190728m4af79c6i47e1c0b31371af2b@mail.gmail.com>

> I don't agree that you can simply use rel="vote-for" because it
> incorrectly gives the impression that you're "voting for" when really
> you were "voted for", hence my suggestion to use the following:
>
> rev="vote-for"
> rev="vote-against"
> rev="vote-abstain"
>
> rel="voted-for"
> rel="voted-against"
> rel="vote-abstained"
>
> Because really, the relationship isn't the same in both directions.
>

So do I just edit the wiki? (or will that get me a slap on the wrists?)

A.
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Fri Jan 19 07:57:04 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Fri Jan 19 07:57:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701181323u210bda90u49fd37662d07817f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701180955v8f17cafqcfc4e5a18e623900@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CB8E3CE-9840-4DCF-A4EB-87674B1C30E7@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701181323u210bda90u49fd37662d07817f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001A6052-92EB-4CAD-826F-848BE30F55A6@ben-ward.co.uk>


On 18 Jan 2007, at 21:23, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> I don't agree that you can simply use rel="vote-for" because it
> incorrectly gives the impression that you're "voting for" when really
> you were "voted for",

It doesn't give the impression that you're ?voting for? though ? the  
use of rev or rel attribute determines that.

URL A is a vote for URL B.

That is the statement described by vote links.

Which of those URLs is the current page is determined by choice of  
rel or rev, *not* a grammatical variant of the word ?vote?.

> rel="voted-for"
> rel="voted-against"
> rel="vote-abstained"

The only difference here is the tense of the word ?vote?. Moving  
?vote? from the present tense to the past tense doesn't change the  
direction of the relationship.

rel="vote-for" would mean ?The page I am linking to is a vote for  
this page?
rev="vote-for" means ?This page is a for for the page I am linking to?

Separate terms are really not needed to express what you're asking for.

Ben

From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 08:21:22 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Fri Jan 19 08:21:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <001A6052-92EB-4CAD-826F-848BE30F55A6@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180824w2c2c0f5av8be9a6870dff7fef@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180835l7b9eefbco4bfeb10f32bdf744@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180850u1b1cc7cbg4e2d3fb68359dcc5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B2F567B9-F484-41EA-B3CA-8AF079D958AF@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701180955v8f17cafqcfc4e5a18e623900@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CB8E3CE-9840-4DCF-A4EB-87674B1C30E7@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701181323u210bda90u49fd37662d07817f@mail.gmail.com>
	<001A6052-92EB-4CAD-826F-848BE30F55A6@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <923a87360701190821r5f5eddcfi3ffd11b960032e1d@mail.gmail.com>

> The only difference here is the tense of the word 'vote'. Moving
> 'vote' from the present tense to the past tense doesn't change the
> direction of the relationship.
>
> rel="vote-for" would mean 'The page I am linking to is a vote for
> this page'
> rev="vote-for" means 'This page is a for for the page I am linking to'
>
> Separate terms are really not needed to express what you're asking for.

You're right, the semantics of the relationship are carried by the
attribute name and not it's value. The value represents the type of
vote whereas the attribute name denotes the direction. I feel kind of
silly now that I understand it better. Thanks for the explanation. :-)

A.
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 12:25:55 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Fri Jan 19 12:26:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats on index pages or detail pages or both?
In-Reply-To: <CuHKitvWHqrFFw0g@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>
	<CuHKitvWHqrFFw0g@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701191225h20fc8508o5b64d473b875ff1a@mail.gmail.com>

As well, if you have data that can be described semantically, you should do so.

Let the consumer of that data (whether browser, bot, script, search
engine or human) figure out what to do with it.

Chris

On 1/17/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <89694F5C-FB55-4646-9CED-26EEB7CC2375@stanford.edu>, Aaron
> Cole <aaronc@stanford.edu> writes
>
> >Do I add microformat markup to index pages or to detail pages that
> >provide more detail or both?
>
>
> See recent discussion:
>
>
> <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#mini_hCard_to_expanded_hCard>
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett     <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>
>                         Welcome to the 14-day week!
>                 <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq>
>         "hCard FAQ [...] if you don't find answers, add your questions!"
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk  Fri Jan 19 12:46:55 2007
From: tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk (Webadmin - Tenbus)
Date: Fri Jan 19 12:47:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
Message-ID: <008401c73c0a$f852bd60$0200a8c0@matilda>

Hello!

I'm working with Mark Andrew Jaroski on Wikevent.org. AS you may have
noticed from Mark's posts to this list it is intended to use hCalendar and
hCard extensively.

One snag that we've hit is the problem of having more that one telephone,
fax, and email for Venues.

If you would care to look at <http://wikevent.org/en/Basingstoke/Anvil>,
which is a listing for a live music venue, and also
<http://garyfoot.com/5-venues/venue.php?IDVenue=11> which is the same venue
on my own site. Please notice that venues may well have two different
'phone, fax, and email numbers/addresses.

Any ideas please how we can do this?

Best regards!
Spike


From ryan at technorati.com  Fri Jan 19 13:07:29 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Fri Jan 19 13:15:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [uf-announce] shutting down this list
Message-ID: <8F24455E-64F3-4B6C-9584-1B94784F7C38@technorati.com>

We're closing this announcements-only mailing list. To follow news  
about microformats, watch the blog (http://microformats.org/),  
discussion from elsewhere on the web http://technorati.com/tag/ 
microformats, or microformats twitter profile (http://twitter.com/ 
microformats).

Thanks,
ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



_______________________________________________
microformats-announce mailing list
microformats-announce@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-announce
From ryan at technorati.com  Fri Jan 19 13:38:19 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Fri Jan 19 13:38:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [uf-announce] shutting down this list
In-Reply-To: <8F24455E-64F3-4B6C-9584-1B94784F7C38@technorati.com>
References: <8F24455E-64F3-4B6C-9584-1B94784F7C38@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <94F38D98-FA1E-4517-9705-7EC0BEA1284E@technorati.com>

Note that this is about the announce list, not discuss list (the  
discuss list is subscribed to the announce list).

-ryan

On Jan 19, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Ryan King wrote:

> We're closing this announcements-only mailing list. To follow news  
> about microformats, watch the blog (http://microformats.org/),  
> discussion from elsewhere on the web http://technorati.com/tag/ 
> microformats, or microformats twitter profile (http://twitter.com/ 
> microformats).
>
> Thanks,
> ryan
> --
> Ryan King
> ryan@technorati.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-announce mailing list
> microformats-announce@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-announce
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



From ryan at technorati.com  Fri Jan 19 13:39:08 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Fri Jan 19 13:39:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
In-Reply-To: <008401c73c0a$f852bd60$0200a8c0@matilda>
References: <008401c73c0a$f852bd60$0200a8c0@matilda>
Message-ID: <C34B7087-315B-44E4-9074-0A44167682D1@technorati.com>

On Jan 19, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Webadmin - Tenbus wrote:

> Hello!
>
> I'm working with Mark Andrew Jaroski on Wikevent.org. AS you may have
> noticed from Mark's posts to this list it is intended to use  
> hCalendar and
> hCard extensively.
>
> One snag that we've hit is the problem of having more that one  
> telephone,
> fax, and email for Venues.
>
> If you would care to look at <http://wikevent.org/en/Basingstoke/ 
> Anvil>,
> which is a listing for a live music venue, and also
> <http://garyfoot.com/5-venues/venue.php?IDVenue=11> which is the  
> same venue
> on my own site. Please notice that venues may well have two different
> 'phone, fax, and email numbers/addresses.
>
> Any ideas please how we can do this?

Just put more than one tel or adr.

-ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



From tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk  Sat Jan 20 00:41:15 2007
From: tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk (Webadmin - Tenbus)
Date: Sat Jan 20 00:41:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
In-Reply-To: <C34B7087-315B-44E4-9074-0A44167682D1@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <000201c73c6e$c3254fe0$0200a8c0@matilda>



-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan King [mailto:ryan@technorati.com] 
Sent: 19 January 2007 21:39
To: spike@tenbus.co.uk; Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?


On Jan 19, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Webadmin - Tenbus wrote:

> One snag that we've hit is the problem of having more that one
> telephone,
> fax, and email for Venues.
>
> Any ideas please how we can do this?

Ryan King wrote:

Just put more than one tel or adr.


Thanks Ryan!

I've got a test page here <http://tenbus.co.uk/wikevent_anvil_01.htm>. It
(seems) to show the correct information.
Tails shows two tel entries and two fax entries. But Operator will only
place the first fax number in the "Business Fax" field when importing into
Outlook.

Any ideas

Regards!
Spike


From hodson.tim at googlemail.com  Sat Jan 20 02:19:49 2007
From: hodson.tim at googlemail.com (Tim Hodson)
Date: Sat Jan 20 02:19:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
In-Reply-To: <000201c73c6e$c3254fe0$0200a8c0@matilda>
References: <C34B7087-315B-44E4-9074-0A44167682D1@technorati.com>
	<000201c73c6e$c3254fe0$0200a8c0@matilda>
Message-ID: <14596d040701200219r3fc3e3ccg3f5e289d20915924@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/01/07, Webadmin - Tenbus <tbadmin@tenbus.co.uk> wrote:

>
> I've got a test page here <http://tenbus.co.uk/wikevent_anvil_01.htm>. It
> (seems) to show the correct information.
> Tails shows two tel entries and two fax entries. But Operator will only
> place the first fax number in the "Business Fax" field when importing into
> Outlook.
>
> Any ideas

I had problems with outlook not understanding 'voice'  if you can use
something like 'work' instead I think outlook will pick it up as a
business number.

I tried your example, and outlook is recognising the voice numbers as
'other' in the drop down list.

best,
Tim

-- 
Tim Hodson
informationtakesover.co.uk
www.timhodson.co.uk
From tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk  Sat Jan 20 02:37:58 2007
From: tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk (Webadmin - Tenbus)
Date: Sat Jan 20 02:38:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
In-Reply-To: <14596d040701200219r3fc3e3ccg3f5e289d20915924@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101c73c7f$10df47d0$0200a8c0@matilda>



-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Hodson [mailto:hodson.tim@googlemail.com] 
Sent: 20 January 2007 10:20
To: spike@tenbus.co.uk; Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?


On 20/01/07, Webadmin - Tenbus <tbadmin@tenbus.co.uk> wrote:

>
> I've got a test page here <http://tenbus.co.uk/wikevent_anvil_01.htm>. 
> It
> (seems) to show the correct information.
> Tails shows two tel entries and two fax entries. But Operator will only
> place the first fax number in the "Business Fax" field when importing into
> Outlook.
>
> Any ideas

I had problems with outlook not understanding 'voice'  if you can use
something like 'work' instead I think outlook will pick it up as a business
number.

I tried your example, and outlook is recognising the voice numbers as
'other' in the drop down list.

best,
Tim


Brilliant! Thanks Tim! I've removed the "voice" and it's now picking both
'phone number up and filing them (in Outlook 2002 SP3) as "Business" and
"Business2".

Now - let's see if I make it see two fax numbers and two e-mail addresses
;-)

Thanks again!
Spike



From xasima at gmail.com  Sat Jan 20 12:09:41 2007
From: xasima at gmail.com (Xasima Xirohata)
Date: Sat Jan 20 12:09:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Usage microformats for educational organization.
Message-ID: <7d6453040701201209n71e189e1y1fb37e5129800958@mail.gmail.com>

Hello. I would like to use the microformats for information system of
the educational organization. I've tried to figure out what the
information need to be presented at web-page on this system. After
getting this list i tried to find appropriate microformats for these
purposes. Unfortunately i'm newbie for this technologies, so I'm not
exactly sure if I 'm going to use the right microformat and if I
really need the extension for the current ones.

Now I propose some information and appropriate microformats i quess to
work with. Could you please help if the microformats 're determined
properly and if I need the extension for the known ones. Imagine you
're the lecture and have the page contained the following information:

1) contacts information (hcard)

2) project he involved, maintained or supervised (doap)

3) CV and the history of person's past activity (hresume)

4) the list of the publications (hatom)

5) the list of (open) problems that person is interested in (?)

6) the number or interested resources (and links) that person feel the
necessity to have on hand or propose for another ( rel-tag, tagspace,
xfolk) .

7) the courses that person 's already prepared (?)

8 ) the presentation, quizzes and additional resources that are
closely related to one or several courses (xfolk + tagspace + ?)

9) resources and book, software that person 'd like to recommend and
not to recommend (hreview + votelinks)

10) the event blog with the help of which the person want to inform
subscribers on the accidental unexpected room/lecture changes (tag +
tagspace + group policy + attention.xml + hcalendar)

11) the actual calendar that show when and where the person is free
for consultation, for getting help. This calendar differs from
traditional event line since it has the regular basis nature
(hcalendar, tags, ?).

12) the actual blog that the person want to express some topics in (atom, rss)

13) the place where you can ask the question. I mean it's like the
forum, but you've more advanced way of aggregating and subscribing on
the information than in traditional forums. And it's similar to the
blog, but having the last-commented-on-bottom model, in contrary with
the last-event-on-bottom model used in traditional blog system.
(attention.xml, ?)

14) the person I've different relationship with. Means I'm reading the
following person blogs, I'm supervising the following PhD students, I
regular dance with the following girls. I think it differs from the
XFN standard, but could be based upon. I believe that the main
advantages of public XFN/fried lists is in forcing the relationship
for public exploring and make the other persons informed why you are
and why they might would be interested in that person too. (xfn,
hreview, xoxo, ?, ?). This forcing is the only way to build social
network over.

15) It's desirable that the content of the slides should be annotated
with microformat and tags as well. It's possible with the help of the
system likes http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/ (tagspace + extensive
XMDP profile)

16) the different communication networks through which the person is
available (like private or virtual Skype number, attached to the
permalink Skyped conference), (live chat / savehistoried live chat),
personal or virtual OpenIM number). (hcard + API ?)

17) status of the person provided over different networks (is he
online in Skype, is he in the DoNotDisturb mode), and the overall
status of the person that s/he decided to publish (like
custom's-status in the google talk (the music just playing in my list
and so on) or the status integrated with a mobile app).

18) wish list, that person consider worth to be gift for him (?)

Thus i wonder you to help with the proper use. I'm sorry to promote
the outside link on the blog..  if you want to read/discuss another
issues concerned on this education topic I have the post
http://xasima.wordpress.com/2007/01/20/microformats-for-educational-organization-how-to-micro-boxed-everything/
that contains a little bit more information. Any way if you would
decide to discuss everithing here i'll create another mail to this
list to exploring additional questions.

Sorry for my poor experience in the field.
-- 
Best regards,
     ~ Xasima Xirohata ~
From niryariv at gmail.com  Sat Jan 20 17:38:04 2007
From: niryariv at gmail.com (Nir Yariv)
Date: Sat Jan 20 17:38:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Making Microformats Searchable
Message-ID: <c5e56f510701201738o2231c72q204f0726bf661753@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm new on the list, so apologies if this was already discussed - I
couldn't find any mention of something like this on the Web.

I'd like to suggest a way to make microformatted content easily
discoverable to search engine queries. It's a pretty minor and not
very elegant as design goes, but I think it might help a bit to psuh
microformats closer towards a Semantic Web.

The idea is simply to have a standard text that can be added to a Web
page containing mf-ed content. For example, "mf_hReview". Since the
text exists outside of tags, it is indexed by existing search engines,
and thus a Google search for "mf_hReview Dylan Highway 61" would yield
reviews of that album. (Obviously there will be texts for
hCalendar/hCard etc, facilitating searches for "mf_hCalendar barCamp",
for example)

While the immediate benefit will be the above Google searches, the
later - and bigger -  one may come from sites that will provide a
tailored front end for data on a specific domain: restaurant reviews,
music events etc. Perhaps it's similar to what Edgeio does, but
leaving the content aggregation part to existing search engines, and
removing the pinging process altogether.

The key here is the text itself being a single agreed standard. Using
CSS it can be made invisible to users but indexable for search
engines. I realize this is pretty kludgy, but I believe at least some
publishers will pick it up it to make their data more accessible, and
in the longer view it might even help spread the use of Microformats
in itself.

I wrote about it a bit also here:
http://niryariv.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/searchable-microformats/

I hope this all makes sense. Would love to hear your comments :)

- Nir
From scott at randomchaos.com  Sat Jan 20 18:56:56 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sat Jan 20 18:57:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Making Microformats Searchable
In-Reply-To: <c5e56f510701201738o2231c72q204f0726bf661753@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c5e56f510701201738o2231c72q204f0726bf661753@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57E7B398-4008-427A-A070-B8A8C76ED2D1@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 20, 2007, at 7:38 PM, Nir Yariv wrote:

> The idea is simply to have a standard text that can be added to a Web
> page containing mf-ed content. For example, "mf_hReview". Since the
> text exists outside of tags, it is indexed by existing search engines,
> and thus a Google search for "mf_hReview Dylan Highway 61" would yield
> reviews of that album. (Obviously there will be texts for
> hCalendar/hCard etc, facilitating searches for "mf_hCalendar barCamp",
> for example)

Hi Nir,

As you point out in your post, there are already a few search engines  
for microformats.  If these search engines can find microformats, it  
seems Google could as well.  They just need to start looking.  My  
concern with your solution is that it puts the burden of solving this  
problem primarily on publishers rather than search engines.  Because  
publishers vastly outnumber search engines, the burden should really  
remain on the search engines as it is currently.

Peace,
Scott
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Sat Jan 20 19:40:47 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Sat Jan 20 19:40:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Making Microformats Searchable
In-Reply-To: <57E7B398-4008-427A-A070-B8A8C76ED2D1@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <C1D820BA.859F1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/20/07 6:56 PM, "Scott Reynen" <scott@randomchaos.com> wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2007, at 7:38 PM, Nir Yariv wrote:
> 
>> The idea is simply to have a standard text that can be added to a Web
>> page containing mf-ed content. For example, "mf_hReview". Since the
>> text exists outside of tags, it is indexed by existing search engines,
>> and thus a Google search for "mf_hReview Dylan Highway 61" would yield
>> reviews of that album. (Obviously there will be texts for
>> hCalendar/hCard etc, facilitating searches for "mf_hCalendar barCamp",
>> for example)
> 
> Hi Nir,
> 
> As you point out in your post, there are already a few search engines
> for microformats.  If these search engines can find microformats, it
> seems Google could as well.  They just need to start looking.  My
> concern with your solution is that it puts the burden of solving this
> problem primarily on publishers rather than search engines.  Because
> publishers vastly outnumber search engines, the burden should really
> remain on the search engines as it is currently.

In addition, search engines very much frown upon use of user-invisible text
in the body of the page to alter search results.

If you are looking for a valid non-visible hint in pages that microformats
may be present, the existing profile attribute mechanism serves this
purpose.

 http://gmpg.org/xmdp/

 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile

etc.

Thanks,

Tantek

From microformats at kaply.com  Sat Jan 20 19:52:39 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Sat Jan 20 19:52:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
In-Reply-To: <001101c73c7f$10df47d0$0200a8c0@matilda>
References: <14596d040701200219r3fc3e3ccg3f5e289d20915924@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101c73c7f$10df47d0$0200a8c0@matilda>
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0701201952l3a16d392uc478c8e08d92507c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/20/07, Webadmin - Tenbus <tbadmin@tenbus.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Brilliant! Thanks Tim! I've removed the "voice" and it's now picking both
> 'phone number up and filing them (in Outlook 2002 SP3) as "Business" and
> "Business2".
>
> Now - let's see if I make it see two fax numbers and two e-mail addresses
> ;-)

I don't think you'll be able to get two fax numbers working. Although
Outlook has a second place for a fax number (Other fax), there doesn't
appear to be a way to indicate this in the vCard file. If I give other
fax a value and then export the vcard, the number is lost.

If there is a way to mark this up so it will work, I would be more
than happy to change Operator to do so...

Mike Kaply
From tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk  Sun Jan 21 00:03:06 2007
From: tbadmin at tenbus.co.uk (Webadmin - Tenbus)
Date: Sun Jan 21 00:03:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
In-Reply-To: <e06e0e0b0701201952l3a16d392uc478c8e08d92507c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c73d32$99419660$0200a8c0@matilda>



-----Original Message-----
From: mkaply@gmail.com [mailto:mkaply@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mike Kaply
Sent: 21 January 2007 03:53
To: spike@tenbus.co.uk; Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?


On 1/20/07, Webadmin - Tenbus <tbadmin@tenbus.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Brilliant! Thanks Tim! I've removed the "voice" and it's now picking 
> > both 'phone number up and filing them (in Outlook 2002 SP3) as 
> > "Business" and "Business2".
> >
> > Now - let's see if I make it see two fax numbers and two e-mail 
> > addresses
> > ;-)

21 January 2007 03:53 - Mike Kaply <mkaply@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't think you'll be able to get two fax numbers working. Although
Outlook has a second place for > a fax number (Other fax), there doesn't
appear to be a way to indicate this in the vCard file. If I > give other fax
a value and then export the vcard, the number is lost.

> If there is a way to mark this up so it will work, I would be more than
happy to change Operator to > do so...
> 
> Mike Kaply

Oh. Reading the Sept 1996 vCard 2.1 specification
<http://www.imc.org/pdi/vcard-21.txt> it looks like you can combine TEL
properties i.e. "TEL;WORK;FAX" and "TEL;WORK;FAX;PREF" I wonder if this is a
way to go.

Alternatively, what I'm trying to do here is to indicate contact details for
two different "departments" in one organization but sharing the same
address. The vCard 2.1 spec offers an "agent" property. This looks like it's
intended for someone's administrator, assistant. The spec says "This
property is equivalent to nesting another vCard with the specified vCard".
May be this is what I'm trying to do? Nesting "Box Office" contact details
within contact details for the venue administrator details (or vice versa).

Thanks for your interest Mike!

Regards
Chris F



From costello at mitre.org  Sun Jan 21 07:01:49 2007
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Sun Jan 21 07:01:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end date?
Message-ID: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD36@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>

Hi Folks,

Question #1:

Consider this education description in a resume:

Education

B.S. in mechanical engineering, focus in automotive engineering,
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, May 1998.

I want to use vevent to markup this information.  Notice that there is
only one date specified - May, 1998 - which is the ending date of his
education.  

What do I use as the start date (i.e., the value of dtstart)?  

Question #2

How do I markup a date such as "May, 1998"?  Notice that there is no
day specified.  Do I assume it to be May 1, 1998, and mark it up as

<abbr class="..." title="1998-05-01">May 1998</abbr>

Thanks!

/Roger


From brian.suda at gmail.com  Sun Jan 21 07:16:04 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Sun Jan 21 07:16:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end date?
In-Reply-To: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD36@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
References: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD36@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
Message-ID: <21e770780701210716q35337c84j460b9cb690794153@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/21/07, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:

> Question #1:
>
> I want to use vevent to markup this information.  Notice that there is
> only one date specified - May, 1998 - which is the ending date of his
> education.
>
> What do I use as the start date (i.e., the value of dtstart)?

--- well OFFICIALLY in the iCalendar spec, nothing is required (which
seems abit strange), but we have always said that 'summary' and
'dtstart' are required, because that makes the most sense as a
minumum. In your case you only want a DTEND. Now technically a DTSTART
is not required, but i have no idea what would happen in a calendar
app if you tried to import that.

One simple work around is to do something like:
<abbr title="1998-05-01" class="dtend dtstart dtstamp">May '98</abbr>

Then you atleast get a start and end date and calendar apps might be
slightly more friendly.

> Question #2
>
> How do I markup a date such as "May, 1998"?  Notice that there is no
> day specified.  Do I assume it to be May 1, 1998, and mark it up as
>
> <abbr class="..." title="1998-05-01">May 1998</abbr>

--- you can certainly just add the '-01' and/or omit the day portion.
It will still be a valid ISO date with just "1998-05" although i have
no idea what will happen when you try to import that into outlook or
other calendar apps.

I would suggest that you create either the hCalendars, one with no
'-01' and with it. Same for the Question #1, create an hCalendar with
no start date and a start and end date of the same time. Then send-us
the URLs and we as a community can test them in different calendaring
applications. I honestly don't know what will happen and who will
support what, or how it would even be represented in the GUI.

Once we have documented application behavior then we can better make a
recommendation of the "prefered" way to mark-up the data for best
interoperability.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From mark at geekhive.net  Sun Jan 21 09:17:08 2007
From: mark at geekhive.net (Mark Jaroski)
Date: Sun Jan 21 09:17:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] More than one value for tel, fax, email?
In-Reply-To: <003a01c73d32$99419660$0200a8c0@matilda>
References: <e06e0e0b0701201952l3a16d392uc478c8e08d92507c@mail.gmail.com>
	<003a01c73d32$99419660$0200a8c0@matilda>
Message-ID: <20070121171708.GC10916@who.int>

Webadmin - Tenbus wrote:
> > I don't think you'll be able to get two fax numbers working. Although
> Outlook has a second place for > a fax number (Other fax), there doesn't
> appear to be a way to indicate this in the vCard file. If I > give other fax
> a value and then export the vcard, the number is lost.
> 
> > If there is a way to mark this up so it will work, I would be more than
> happy to change Operator to > do so...
> > 
> > Mike Kaply
> 
> Oh. Reading the Sept 1996 vCard 2.1 specification
> <http://www.imc.org/pdi/vcard-21.txt> it looks like you can combine TEL
> properties i.e. "TEL;WORK;FAX" and "TEL;WORK;FAX;PREF" I wonder if this is a
> way to go.
> 
> Alternatively, what I'm trying to do here is to indicate contact details for
> two different "departments" in one organization but sharing the same
> address. The vCard 2.1 spec offers an "agent" property. This looks like it's
> intended for someone's administrator, assistant. The spec says "This
> property is equivalent to nesting another vCard with the specified vCard".
> May be this is what I'm trying to do? Nesting "Box Office" contact details
> within contact details for the venue administrator details (or vice versa).

I was thinking exactly the same thing this afternoon, and was planning to
come home and write up a big thing about using the agent property.  

What I'd like to know is:  How widely implemented is agent?  Can we just
nest one hCard into the agent property of another one, or does the value of
agent have to be a link to another hcard?

As for box office, I tend to think that that should be the "work" phone
number of the venue itself, since event-goers will be most likely to want
to reach the box office.  

Thanks all,

-mark

-- 
--
=================================================================
-- mark at geekhive dot net --
From costello at mitre.org  Sun Jan 21 09:48:43 2007
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Sun Jan 21 09:48:50 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end date?
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701210716q35337c84j460b9cb690794153@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD3B@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>

Thanks a lot Brian.  I have implemented your suggestions.  Here is the
document:

http://www.xfront.com/microformats/examples/hResume/example01/revised-D
errick-Crane-resume.html

There are a few other events in that document that I am stymied as to
how to represent the dates:

1. The person was a co-op engineer in the Fall of 1997.  How do I
represent dtstart and dtend for "Fall of 1997"?

2. The person was an assistant mechanic during the summers of 1993,
1994, 1995.  How do I represent dtstart and dtend for "summers of 1993,
1994, 1995"?

3. The person was a mini-baja participant during Fall 1996 - Spring
1997.  How do I represent dtstart and dtend for "Fall 1996 - Spring
1997"?

Thanks!

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Suda
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:16 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end
date?

On 1/21/07, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:

> Question #1:
>
> I want to use vevent to markup this information.  Notice that there
is
> only one date specified - May, 1998 - which is the ending date of his
> education.
>
> What do I use as the start date (i.e., the value of dtstart)?

--- well OFFICIALLY in the iCalendar spec, nothing is required (which
seems abit strange), but we have always said that 'summary' and
'dtstart' are required, because that makes the most sense as a
minumum. In your case you only want a DTEND. Now technically a DTSTART
is not required, but i have no idea what would happen in a calendar
app if you tried to import that.

One simple work around is to do something like:
<abbr title="1998-05-01" class="dtend dtstart dtstamp">May '98</abbr>

Then you atleast get a start and end date and calendar apps might be
slightly more friendly.

> Question #2
>
> How do I markup a date such as "May, 1998"?  Notice that there is no
> day specified.  Do I assume it to be May 1, 1998, and mark it up as
>
> <abbr class="..." title="1998-05-01">May 1998</abbr>

--- you can certainly just add the '-01' and/or omit the day portion.
It will still be a valid ISO date with just "1998-05" although i have
no idea what will happen when you try to import that into outlook or
other calendar apps.

I would suggest that you create either the hCalendars, one with no
'-01' and with it. Same for the Question #1, create an hCalendar with
no start date and a start and end date of the same time. Then send-us
the URLs and we as a community can test them in different calendaring
applications. I honestly don't know what will happen and who will
support what, or how it would even be represented in the GUI.

Once we have documented application behavior then we can better make a
recommendation of the "prefered" way to mark-up the data for best
interoperability.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From niryariv at gmail.com  Sun Jan 21 17:10:32 2007
From: niryariv at gmail.com (Nir Yariv)
Date: Sun Jan 21 17:10:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Making Microformats Searchable
In-Reply-To: <C1D820BA.859F1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <57E7B398-4008-427A-A070-B8A8C76ED2D1@randomchaos.com>
	<C1D820BA.859F1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <c5e56f510701211710x728592bahc6f2df2cabd60619@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Thank you for your comments!

Just to clarify what I meant - the key here is to have a solution that
works with existing search engines, as they are now. This does put the
burden on the publisher, but I think it might prove quicker to do it
this way than rely on search engine's will and competence to implement
microformat search on their side ;)

In any case, this will be optional - it's not part of any mf's spec,
just an option for publishers who want to get more visibility.

(And on the note of visibility, I accept Tantek's comment. The better
method might be to simply put it as as a small text somewhere in the
page - perhaps footer etc. An ALT for some "microformatted" icon might
be nice, but I understand SEs don't use ALTs much anymore)

Best,
Nir

On 1/20/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On 1/20/07 6:56 PM, "Scott Reynen" <scott@randomchaos.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 20, 2007, at 7:38 PM, Nir Yariv wrote:
> >
> >> The idea is simply to have a standard text that can be added to a Web
> >> page containing mf-ed content. For example, "mf_hReview". Since the
> >> text exists outside of tags, it is indexed by existing search engines,
> >> and thus a Google search for "mf_hReview Dylan Highway 61" would yield
> >> reviews of that album. (Obviously there will be texts for
> >> hCalendar/hCard etc, facilitating searches for "mf_hCalendar barCamp",
> >> for example)
> >
> > Hi Nir,
> >
> > As you point out in your post, there are already a few search engines
> > for microformats.  If these search engines can find microformats, it
> > seems Google could as well.  They just need to start looking.  My
> > concern with your solution is that it puts the burden of solving this
> > problem primarily on publishers rather than search engines.  Because
> > publishers vastly outnumber search engines, the burden should really
> > remain on the search engines as it is currently.
>
> In addition, search engines very much frown upon use of user-invisible text
> in the body of the page to alter search results.
>
> If you are looking for a valid non-visible hint in pages that microformats
> may be present, the existing profile attribute mechanism serves this
> purpose.
>
>  http://gmpg.org/xmdp/
>
>  http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-profile
>
> etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tantek
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From mdagn at spraci.com  Mon Jan 22 12:45:38 2007
From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD)
Date: Sun Jan 21 17:45:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] day of month not specified
References: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD36@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
	<21e770780701210716q35337c84j460b9cb690794153@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c73e66$467b71f0$116bacca@COMCEN>

>How do I markup a date such as "May, 1998"?  Notice that there is no
>day specified.  Do I assume it to be May 1, 1998, and mark it up as
><abbr class="..." title="1998-05-01">May 1998</abbr>

probably not....

I think the correct way to do it would depend on whether you mean:

"its an event running for the whole month"
(in this case you would set the start and end dates to the actual dates of 
the beginning and end of the month)

- or -

"it's happening sometime in May but I don't know the actual date"

In this case there would be a problem  - I guess that just putting 1998-05 
would probably convey that level of precision
but it would be uncertain how calendar apps would would handle it.

I think some software would incorrectly interpret 1998-05 as 1998-05-01 
which could be a big problem in some cases such as listings of public events 
on a website.
Listing an event on May 1st when it doesn't actually happen on that exact 
date could result in people turning up to an event on the wrong date!












Michael MD
SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/
SPRACI for mobiles: wap.spraci.com


From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Jan 22 02:21:14 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Jan 22 02:21:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
Message-ID: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>

Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
data.

Regards, etc...
David
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 03:22:38 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Jan 22 03:22:44 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701220322m519115c1g5d5fc17761e20d29@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
> microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
> engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
> Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
> one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
> world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
> data.

there was a discussion awhile ago on the list serv about ALEXA doing
CSS searches[1]. It was after you downloaded and paided for the search
data. They were doing a quick string search for 'vcard' to quickly
reduce the sample set. Then they were attempting to parse out the
hCards.

Very interest idea!
-brian


[1] - http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007299.html


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Jan 22 03:30:04 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Jan 22 03:30:16 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701220322m519115c1g5d5fc17761e20d29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701220322m519115c1g5d5fc17761e20d29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701220330n7f87945fpa00c390b6e906764@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Brian Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/22/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> > Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
> > microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
> > engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
> > Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
> > one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
> > world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
> > data.
>
> there was a discussion awhile ago on the list serv about ALEXA doing
> CSS searches[1]. It was after you downloaded and paided for the search
> data. They were doing a quick string search for 'vcard' to quickly
> reduce the sample set. Then they were attempting to parse out the
> hCards.
>
> Very interest idea!

And if someone like A9 wanted to differentiate themselves from the
pack, well.... And then if there was a way of adding to the query
"return only what has changed since a certain date".... And then if
the results were returned in hAtom....

Regards, etc....

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 04:34:09 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Mon Jan 22 04:34:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701220434p59616f25j957a29d844c4a9c2@mail.gmail.com>

> Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
> microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
> engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
> Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
> one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
> world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
> data.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but if by css:vcard you
mean a parameter that looks for cascading style sheet selectors (in
reference to the class name that has 'hCard" as a value) then, class
names aren't CSS, they're in fact HTML.

A.
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Jan 22 05:08:18 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Jan 22 05:08:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701220434p59616f25j957a29d844c4a9c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701220434p59616f25j957a29d844c4a9c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701220508i73155db2m535ef435e902cf22@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
> > microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
> > engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
> > Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
> > one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
> > world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
> > data.
>
> I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but if by css:vcard you
> mean a parameter that looks for cascading style sheet selectors (in
> reference to the class name that has 'hCard" as a value) then, class
> names aren't CSS, they're in fact HTML.

Sure. I was just informally writing about the topic, not creating a
spec. That said, "class:vcard" would be a better way of expressing the
selector (the word "selector" referring to a search query modifier and
not any thing else.

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 05:23:52 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Mon Jan 22 05:23:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701220508i73155db2m535ef435e902cf22@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701220434p59616f25j957a29d844c4a9c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701220508i73155db2m535ef435e902cf22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701220523s23199007gb513b1112c253095@mail.gmail.com>

> Sure. I was just informally writing about the topic, not creating a
> spec. That said, "class:vcard" would be a better way of expressing the
> selector (the word "selector" referring to a search query modifier and
> not any thing else.

Gotcha. After all, it's all about semantics ;-)

A.
From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk  Mon Jan 22 07:45:17 2007
From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell)
Date: Mon Jan 22 07:45:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Aggregation of vevents in vcalendar [newbie]
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701180903l2fd7e557rf23ac38386654c8b@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070118124520.02886868@pop3>
	<21e770780701180812j6b3654fcm131346f0cabe09b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.0.14.2.20070118162426.028f8c98@pop3>
	<21e770780701180903l2fd7e557rf23ac38386654c8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070122150052.02785098@pop3>

At 17:03 18/01/2007, you wrote:
>If you have a specific senario please let us know, no one has pressed
>this issue so all the details have not been fully flushed out yet.

A good example of a schedule is a conference e.g:

Microformats Expo 2007
22 January 2007
Glitzy Hotel, Techno Boulevard, London

   10:00 Plenary session
   Room 1

   11:00 Session One
   Room 2

   12:00 Session Two:
   Room 2

Using the current hCalendar specification, vevent elements can be used to denote the three sessions. Adding an encompassing vcalendar element would identify that the events form a schedule (and could be used to distinguish this schedule from any others on the page if present).

What I'm suggesting is that we should define some descriptive properties that apply to the vcalendar element. Then we can give this schedule a name etc.

This would be similar to the two-level hierarchy in hAtom, where there are hfeed properties as well hentry properties. 

BTW any implementation that was only interested in vevents would ignore these properties.

Chris

From niryariv at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 09:09:21 2007
From: niryariv at gmail.com (Nir Yariv)
Date: Mon Jan 22 09:09:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5e56f510701220909g2aaf56b0wf50a6121079d6fa5@mail.gmail.com>

> Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
> microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
> engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
> Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
> one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
> world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
> data.

Opting for a solution that requires changes on the search engine side
(eg, crawling CSS files) might not be the best path, IMHO. It means
relying on search engines on several points:

1. Motivation - while by definition everyone reading this is
interested in Microformats, I don't know how many people working on
search engines are even aware of MFs.

2. Implementation - once the motivation is there, you're relying on
different search engines to implement the standard correctly and
completely. (Admittedly, it won't be hard to implement. But big
companies occasionally like to put their own spin on standards...)

3. Sharing -  above reasons by nature will limit the number of engines
which will support the MF search. This increases the vulnerability of
MF-search based apps to moves like Google's recent SOAP API
deprecation.

In any case, if we're already asking publishers to modify their
output, I think it would be more likely to catch on if it provides
instant results, by working with existing search engines.

Cheers,
Nir
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Jan 22 10:01:29 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Jan 22 10:01:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <c5e56f510701220909g2aaf56b0wf50a6121079d6fa5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5e56f510701220909g2aaf56b0wf50a6121079d6fa5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701221001r9d57d9fgc2e15a276b4104b1@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Nir Yariv <niryariv@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
> > microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
> > engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
> > Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
> > one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
> > world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
> > data.
>
> Opting for a solution that requires changes on the search engine side
> (eg, crawling CSS files) might not be the best path, IMHO. It means
> relying on search engines on several points:
>
> 1. Motivation - while by definition everyone reading this is
> interested in Microformats, I don't know how many people working on
> search engines are even aware of MFs.
>
> 2. Implementation - once the motivation is there, you're relying on
> different search engines to implement the standard correctly and
> completely. (Admittedly, it won't be hard to implement. But big
> companies occasionally like to put their own spin on standards...)
>
> 3. Sharing -  above reasons by nature will limit the number of engines
> which will support the MF search. This increases the vulnerability of
> MF-search based apps to moves like Google's recent SOAP API
> deprecation.
>
> In any case, if we're already asking publishers to modify their
> output, I think it would be more likely to catch on if it provides
> instant results, by working with existing search engines.

Again, we're not asking anyone to read CSS file; we're asking them to
index the "class" attributes of HTML they're already crawling. We
already know that Google does look at this information (they did a
report on it last year) and I'm fairly sure that there are a number of
search companies aware of microformats. There are very few
implementation issues: most programmers, including those at many
search companies, are aware how to break up a space separated list of
words.

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From ryan at technorati.com  Mon Jan 22 10:33:24 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Mon Jan 22 10:33:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2016BE9D-1AC6-436A-8670-BC93420FF86B@technorati.com>

On Jan 18, 2007, at 8:13 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:
> On 18/01/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18 Jan 2007, at 15:49, Frances Berriman wrote:
>> > Could Sites of the Month not just use rev="vote-for"? As in - this
>> > site voted for me.
>>
>> Wrong way around Frances, I think.
>>
>> ? rev="vote-for" ? 'this site is a vote for the href'
>> ? rel="vote-for" ? 'href is a vote for this site'
>>
>> Your concept is correct, though. It definitely seems like a valid
>> case for a rel-vote.
>>
>> So: <a href="http://back.to/site/a" title="Voted 'site of the month'
>> by Site A' rel="vote-for">Site of the Month!</a> could be used to
>> indicate your site had been 'voted for' by another.
>
> Doh! I think you're right.

This is a very, very common mistake. So common, in fact, that the  
current HTML5 draft drops @rev. In the interest of keeping vote-links  
future compatible, we should rely on using both rel and rev. See the  
rel-faq [http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#Should_.27rev. 
27_even_be_used].

> Anyway - the rev/rel relationsip basically means you (should) never
> have to extend your class names to do the other half of a partnership.

In theory, yes, but in practice we can't make use of both rel and rev.

-ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com




From niryariv at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 11:38:29 2007
From: niryariv at gmail.com (Nir Yariv)
Date: Mon Jan 22 11:38:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701221001r9d57d9fgc2e15a276b4104b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5e56f510701220909g2aaf56b0wf50a6121079d6fa5@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701221001r9d57d9fgc2e15a276b4104b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>

> Again, we're not asking anyone to read CSS file; we're asking them to
> index the "class" attributes of HTML they're already crawling. We
> already know that Google does look at this information (they did a
> report on it last year) and I'm fairly sure that there are a number of
> search companies aware of microformats. There are very few
> implementation issues: most programmers, including those at many
> search companies, are aware how to break up a space separated list of
> words.

The point isn't whether it's hard for search engines to support MFs
(obviously it isn't), the point is whether to wait for a solution to
come from SE's side or implement it now in the publisher side.

I'm sure that "a number of search companies aware of microformats" and
that "programmers, including those at many search companies, are aware
how to break up a space separated list of words", and yet so far,
AFAIK, no major search engine except Technorati actually supports
microformats.

In any case - no big deal. It may indeed arrive soon enough from other
SEs, and in any case it's really not something I'd go to flamewar
about :)
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 12:24:28 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Mon Jan 22 12:24:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <2016BE9D-1AC6-436A-8670-BC93420FF86B@technorati.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<2016BE9D-1AC6-436A-8670-BC93420FF86B@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701221224h6b20b902o70f44d9a385d148c@mail.gmail.com>

> This is a very, very common mistake. So common, in fact, that the
> current HTML5 draft drops @rev. In the interest of keeping vote-links
> future compatible, we should rely on using both rel and rev. See the
> rel-faq [http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#Should_.27rev.
> 27_even_be_used].

See, now THAT doesn't make sense. I just understood the difference
between rev and rel in relation to a Vote Link, and you need both. In
fact, any HTML spec should keep it--and doing away with it because
it's a common mistake is plain silly. It's too bad that the folks
doing HTML5 are cutting it out. Maybe we can convince them otherwise.
They'll be hobbling the spec if they do.

A.
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 12:45:52 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Jan 22 12:47:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end date?
In-Reply-To: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD3B@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
References: <21e770780701210716q35337c84j460b9cb690794153@mail.gmail.com>
	<B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD3B@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
Message-ID: <21e770780701221245h574bb692l596c2965727fdd7e@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/21/07, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:
> Thanks a lot Brian.  I have implemented your suggestions.  Here is the
> document:
>
> http://www.xfront.com/microformats/examples/hResume/example01/revised-D
> errick-Crane-resume.html

--- i convert this to an ics file and attempted to import it. Without
a month and/or day in the ISO date Apple's iCal just ignores the
dates.

> There are a few other events in that document that I am stymied as to
> how to represent the dates:
>
> 1. The person was a co-op engineer in the Fall of 1997.  How do I
> represent dtstart and dtend for "Fall of 1997"?

--- this is when you will have to give an ISO date of what you think
best respresents that season.

> 2. The person was an assistant mechanic during the summers of 1993,
> 1994, 1995.  How do I represent dtstart and dtend for "summers of 1993,
> 1994, 1995"?

You can use RDATE:
<abbr class="rdate" title="20010910/20020901,20050101/20070122"><abbr
title="20010910" class="dtstart">9/01</abbr>?9/02, 1/05?Present</abbr>

you aren't the first person to ask about this, so maybe we should
document more information about this on the wiki.

> 3. The person was a mini-baja participant during Fall 1996 - Spring
> 1997.  How do I represent dtstart and dtend for "Fall 1996 - Spring
> 1997"?

This could be a combination of RDATE and an iSO date for each season.

I hope this helps,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk

From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Jan 22 13:38:57 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Jan 22 13:39:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5e56f510701220909g2aaf56b0wf50a6121079d6fa5@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701221001r9d57d9fgc2e15a276b4104b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A21C19AE-21DE-4012-A9C7-0E03B0A4B3F6@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 22, 2007, at 1:38 PM, Nir Yariv wrote:

>> Again, we're not asking anyone to read CSS file; we're asking them to
>> index the "class" attributes of HTML they're already crawling. We
>> already know that Google does look at this information (they did a
>> report on it last year) and I'm fairly sure that there are a  
>> number of
>> search companies aware of microformats. There are very few
>> implementation issues: most programmers, including those at many
>> search companies, are aware how to break up a space separated list of
>> words.
>
> The point isn't whether it's hard for search engines to support MFs
> (obviously it isn't), the point is whether to wait for a solution to
> come from SE's side or implement it now in the publisher side.

This is a false choice.  You can implement your own solution now in  
your publishing and encourage other publishers to do the same while  
those of us who are interested in better search engines can continue  
to pursue that avenue.  There's no reason anyone needs to choose  
between the two.  If you have a hypothesis about some way to improve  
the web, the best thing to do is test that hypothesis on the web.  If  
it works, you'll find it much easier to convince others of your idea  
by pointing to the success.  If it doesn't work, you can at least  
learn something in the process.

Peace,
Scott

From niryariv at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 14:38:14 2007
From: niryariv at gmail.com (Nir Yariv)
Date: Mon Jan 22 14:38:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <A21C19AE-21DE-4012-A9C7-0E03B0A4B3F6@randomchaos.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5e56f510701220909g2aaf56b0wf50a6121079d6fa5@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701221001r9d57d9fgc2e15a276b4104b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>
	<A21C19AE-21DE-4012-A9C7-0E03B0A4B3F6@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <c5e56f510701221438sefef1b4q75128cb47ce55c6b@mail.gmail.com>

> > The point isn't whether it's hard for search engines to support MFs
> > (obviously it isn't), the point is whether to wait for a solution to
> > come from SE's side or implement it now in the publisher side.
>
> This is a false choice.  You can implement your own solution now in
> your publishing and encourage other publishers to do the same while
> those of us who are interested in better search engines can continue
> to pursue that avenue.  There's no reason anyone needs to choose
> between the two.  If you have a hypothesis about some way to improve
> the web, the best thing to do is test that hypothesis on the web.  If
> it works, you'll find it much easier to convince others of your idea
> by pointing to the success.  If it doesn't work, you can at least
> learn something in the process.

Absolutely - I don't think it's a "choose one" situation, sorry if it
came across like I do. In order for the publishing side to work,
though, there should be some standard text common across publishers,
so I thought it might be discussed here.

Best,
Nir
From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Mon Jan 22 16:52:58 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Mon Jan 22 16:53:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] A dtstamp property for the geo microtag
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070122150052.02785098@pop3>
Message-ID: <20070123005258.49575.qmail@web27115.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hello all

I was wondering if there is any reason to avoid using
the hCalendar "dtstamp" property inside a geo
microtag.

Reusing this property gives a time dimension to the
geo microformat, that might be useful when geo tagging
pictures or videos, among other things. Would that be
objectional for some reason?

Some more thoughts about adding a reference system
property, that could also be used for geo tags for
other celestial bodies, like Mars or Luna, are layed
out in
http://microformats.org/wiki/thoughts_on_extending_the_geo_microformat

Could this have any chance of been useful?

Thanks
Dimitrios


	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
?????????????? Yahoo!; 
?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? (spam); ?? Yahoo! Mail 
???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????????? 
????????? http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

From leikam at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 22 17:14:17 2007
From: leikam at yahoo.com (Michael Leikam)
Date: Mon Jan 22 17:14:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <662521.22707.qm@web33609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Nir,

I think I know what's been bugging me about this thread.  I
as a consumer don't care about microformats.  What I care
about is content that's up-to-date and relevant.  As a
consumer, I want to know when we're getting together next
week, not what's marked up with hCal.

The fundamental thing here is that uFs are a means to an
end.  They gain usefulness to the extent that they make
things that I already want to do easy.

My mom would never search for hcards (no matter the syntax)
any more than she would search for images in a PNG format. 
It's a niche search that could be performed by a small
group of technical people and it's no surprise that
general-purpose search engines haven't made it a priority. 
Nor do I think such support would add much value for most
people.

-ml


--- Nir Yariv <niryariv@gmail.com> wrote:

> The point isn't whether it's hard for search engines to
> support MFs
> (obviously it isn't), the point is whether to wait for a
> solution to
> come from SE's side or implement it now in the publisher
> side.

[snip] 

> so far,
> AFAIK, no major search engine except Technorati actually
> supports
> microformats.

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Jan 22 17:26:41 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Jan 22 17:26:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <662521.22707.qm@web33609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>
	<662521.22707.qm@web33609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701221726y3905474esdcc15b0f085a7671@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Michael Leikam <leikam@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Nir,
>
> I think I know what's been bugging me about this thread.  I
> as a consumer don't care about microformats.  What I care
> about is content that's up-to-date and relevant.  As a
> consumer, I want to know when we're getting together next
> week, not what's marked up with hCal.
>
> The fundamental thing here is that uFs are a means to an
> end.  They gain usefulness to the extent that they make
> things that I already want to do easy.
>
> My mom would never search for hcards (no matter the syntax)
> any more than she would search for images in a PNG format.
> It's a niche search that could be performed by a small
> group of technical people and it's no surprise that
> general-purpose search engines haven't made it a priority.
> Nor do I think such support would add much value for most
> people.
>

Yes, considering the idea I outlined is all of 12 hours old (or 4
days, depending on where you start counting), it's amazing search
engine companies aren't already retooling.

Does your Mom use Google's site:* selector? Maybe, and you might not
even know about it.

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From niryariv at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 18:01:59 2007
From: niryariv at gmail.com (Nir Yariv)
Date: Mon Jan 22 18:02:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701221726y3905474esdcc15b0f085a7671@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>
	<662521.22707.qm@web33609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<21e523c20701221726y3905474esdcc15b0f085a7671@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5e56f510701221801i2f60c5fcmd9f8acdbf2ac355b@mail.gmail.com>

> > My mom would never search for hcards (no matter the syntax)
> > any more than she would search for images in a PNG format.
> > It's a niche search that could be performed by a small
> > group of technical people and it's no surprise that
> > general-purpose search engines haven't made it a priority.
> > Nor do I think such support would add much value for most
> > people.

I completely agree. I think the real value will come from enabling
easy creation of services that will  use the search as backend, and
present the results with a good front end. For example, a site for
restaurant reviews - users will specify what kind of food, location
etc, the site does a query to Yahoo search API, filters the relevant
results and displays them nicely. The key is you can relegate the
heavy weight search/aggregation functionality and focus on your
specific domain.

> Yes, considering the idea I outlined is all of 12 hours old (or 4
> days, depending on where you start counting), it's amazing search
> engine companies aren't already retooling.

It was always possible to simply index 'class="hreview"' etc. I
suppose that's what Technorati did.
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 18:15:29 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Mon Jan 22 18:15:32 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <662521.22707.qm@web33609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <c5e56f510701221138r2afac64ekafc1ef9786335268@mail.gmail.com>
	<662521.22707.qm@web33609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701221815i7e68484cs3e776c44e1b894e8@mail.gmail.com>

> I think I know what's been bugging me about this thread.  I
> as a consumer don't care about microformats.  What I care
> about is content that's up-to-date and relevant.  As a
> consumer, I want to know when we're getting together next
> week, not what's marked up with hCal.
>
> The fundamental thing here is that uFs are a means to an
> end.  They gain usefulness to the extent that they make
> things that I already want to do easy.
>
> My mom would never search for hcards (no matter the syntax)
> any more than she would search for images in a PNG format.
> It's a niche search that could be performed by a small
> group of technical people and it's no surprise that
> general-purpose search engines haven't made it a priority.
> Nor do I think such support would add much value for most
> people.

I agree with you about microformats being a means to an end. But the
bottom line is that they need to work. Otherwise, they won't be of any
use to anyone, technical or not. This thread is for the technical
folks who make sure that they're well defined and well implemented so
that when mom types "bake sale" into google, all the right results
come up.

A.
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 00:11:07 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Tue Jan 23 00:11:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] A dtstamp property for the geo microtag
In-Reply-To: <20070123005258.49575.qmail@web27115.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070122150052.02785098@pop3>
	<20070123005258.49575.qmail@web27115.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701230011l3376e87aua246d11475e99738@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/23/07, Dimitrios Zachariadis <telemetry_mail@yahoo.gr> wrote:
> Hello all
>
> I was wondering if there is any reason to avoid using
> the hCalendar "dtstamp" property inside a geo
> microtag.

--- depends. I'm not sure what you are trying to do? There is also a
REV property in vCard and a LAST-MODIFIED in iCalendar.

> Reusing this property gives a time dimension to the
> geo microformat, that might be useful when geo tagging
> pictures or videos, among other things. Would that be
> objectional for some reason?

--- this is true, but GEO can be in hCal and hCard, so maybe it is
best to use those WITH a GEO instead of GEO with extra bits in side?

> Some more thoughts about adding a reference system
> property, that could also be used for geo tags for
> other celestial bodies, like Mars or Luna, are layed
> out in
> http://microformats.org/wiki/thoughts_on_extending_the_geo_microformat
>
> Could this have any chance of been useful?

--- i think you need to ask, "is the currently being published in this
way", and does it need to be examined to find the current publishing
habits?

This reminds me, recently one of our fellow microformatters, Andrew
Turner, published a book about Neogeography[1]. Inside it covers some
of the ADR and GEO microformats, but mainly focuses on other
geographic data. It might be a good starting point for looking into
existing formats and publishing habits on the web.

-brian

[1] - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/neogeography/

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Tue Jan 23 04:33:12 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Tue Jan 23 04:33:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] A dtstamp property for the geo microtag
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701230011l3376e87aua246d11475e99738@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070123123313.73652.qmail@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Brian,

thank you very much for your reply.

> --- i think you need to ask, "is the currently being
> published in this
> way", and does it need to be examined to find the
> current publishing habits?

 You are right. The question is "is the current
publishing method adequate for" getting an one click
map out of a photo, a news article, or a history
article e.t.c? Can a user copy that piece of geotagged
info with a single click

So far, its been hard to find a few sites doing it.
Looking at some HTML code in geotagged pages, its easy
to get disappointed about the amount of effort needed
to include that little piece of information to tag the
info. The notion "in the right place at the right
time", which I take literally, is not reflected
cleanly in the code I've seen. So the question for me
is how to include a time dimension to a geotag.

Microformats looks by far the easiest and cleanest way
to do geotagging, but how to include time in it?

> > I was wondering if there is any reason to avoid
> using
> > the hCalendar "dtstamp" property inside a geo
> > microtag.
> 
> --- depends. I'm not sure what you are trying to do?
 
Actually I'm trying to geotag+time information on road
related problems in a compact way.

> --- this is true, but GEO can be in hCal and hCard,
> so maybe it is
> best to use those WITH a GEO instead of GEO with
> extra bits in side?

I'll have another look in the hCal and hCard and see
if I can do it with these microformats as you suggest,
although I think hCard lacks an appropriate time
property, having only BDAY (birthday) and a TZ
(timezone) properties. Also, it is the compact form of
the geo microformat I am actually interested in. 

Thanks again
Dimitrios



	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
?????????????? Yahoo!; 
?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? (spam); ?? Yahoo! Mail 
???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????????? 
????????? http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan 23 10:08:44 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:08:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701221224h6b20b902o70f44d9a385d148c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<2016BE9D-1AC6-436A-8670-BC93420FF86B@technorati.com>
	<923a87360701221224h6b20b902o70f44d9a385d148c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7E893072-EF44-4A71-A96A-10BD579164D3@technorati.com>

On Jan 22, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:

>> This is a very, very common mistake. So common, in fact, that the
>> current HTML5 draft drops @rev. In the interest of keeping vote-links
>> future compatible, we should rely on using both rel and rev. See the
>> rel-faq [http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#Should_.27rev.
>> 27_even_be_used].
>
> See, now THAT doesn't make sense. I just understood the difference
> between rev and rel in relation to a Vote Link, and you need both. In
> fact, any HTML spec should keep it--and doing away with it because
> it's a common mistake is plain silly. It's too bad that the folks
> doing HTML5 are cutting it out. Maybe we can convince them otherwise.
> They'll be hobbling the spec if they do.

I disagree.

First of all, you don't need both @rel and @rev for votelinks. Right  
now you just need @rev to declare votes. Linking in the opposite  
direction doesn't add anything, as it is a 3rd party assertion (or  
hearsay).

Secondly, if people can't figure out how to use it properly, they'll  
use it improperly. Then people building tools will have to deal with  
that confusion. It's better to just make the technology simpler and  
unambiguous.

Removing @rev is not hobbling HTML5. Very few people who use it  
properly and even more use it improperly. See Google Web Authoring  
statistics for more data [1].

-ryan

1. http://code.google.com/webstats/index.html
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan 23 10:11:30 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:11:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search on CSS element (was: Making Microformats
	Searchable)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701220221t5f9fbf4u651ff9c535d0e05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <987192C1-1CA2-4978-9C18-093867F5CFA1@technorati.com>

on Jan 22, 2007, at 2:21 AM, David Janes wrote:

> Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and "how do you find
> microformats" (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
> engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
> Tantek's hCard we could search "tantek css:vcard". Neatly, this shows
> one of the great benefits of microformats -- by working in HTML data
> world, we gain the benefits of existing tools but still work with
> data.

It's not a full CSS selector based search engine, but http:// 
kitchen.technorati.com/contacts/search/tantek.

-ryan

--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com



From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Tue Jan 23 10:22:01 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:22:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
Message-ID: <21e523c20701231022h59568dbbr431aef5398017ddc@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing the tradition of riffing off other threads to talk about
what's on my mind...

On 1/23/07, Ryan King <ryan@technorati.com> wrote:
>
> It's not a full CSS selector based search engine, but http://
> kitchen.technorati.com/contacts/search/tantek.
>

Wouldn't it be great if there was a well defined way of getting from
_an_ instance of a hCard to the _best_ (or canonical) hCard for that
person.

Just saying; I know that some work has been done on this.

Regards, etc...

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 10:44:48 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:44:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <7E893072-EF44-4A71-A96A-10BD579164D3@technorati.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<2016BE9D-1AC6-436A-8670-BC93420FF86B@technorati.com>
	<923a87360701221224h6b20b902o70f44d9a385d148c@mail.gmail.com>
	<7E893072-EF44-4A71-A96A-10BD579164D3@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701231044h78069f1eq6b80ec9c25e1aea6@mail.gmail.com>

> I disagree.
>
> First of all, you don't need both @rel and @rev for votelinks. Right
> now you just need @rev to declare votes. Linking in the opposite
> direction doesn't add anything, as it is a 3rd party assertion (or
> hearsay).
>
> Secondly, if people can't figure out how to use it properly, they'll
> use it improperly. Then people building tools will have to deal with
> that confusion. It's better to just make the technology simpler and
> unambiguous.
>
> Removing @rev is not hobbling HTML5. Very few people who use it
> properly and even more use it improperly. See Google Web Authoring
> statistics for more data [1].

As I'm sure you're already aware, two discreet bits of data are
communicated via the rev/rel attributes. The attribute itself
communicates the direction of the relationship while the value states
the type of relationship. By dropping one of the directions, you
introduce ambiguity in the data.

At least one real world example for the implementation of a rev/rel
relationship exists: my previously stated "site of the month"
scenario. A vote using rev is made for a site of the month. That site
in turn will link back to the originator via an icon with a rel. This
would properly describe the forward/reverse relationships between
sites. To a machine crawling the vote icon (rel), it will properly
pick up the URL of as the source for the vote and not a site that's
being voted for. Similarly, if a machine were to crawl the site where
the "sites of the month" are picked, it would know that this is the
originator who is voting (rev). The ambiguity caused by ignoring the
direction of the vote could really throw off stats when tallying
votes. And that's just one example.

I don't agree that rev should be dropped in order to fall in line with
the way rel is being (badly) used today. Rather, if a change is to be
made to the spec, it would make more sense to revisit the entire
attribute set so as to come up with something that is easier to
use/understand while still being able to define a direction for the
relationship as well as a type. Either that, or we should stick with
the existing spec and simply require developers to understand and use
it correctly. Nobody dumbs down compilers because of thick coders, why
is this any different? It took me a couple of posts on this list and I
ended up learning.

If the spec just ends up bending to the popular usage, then what's the
point behind the standards movement? We may as well invest our time
writing better error correction.
From ryan at technorati.com  Tue Jan 23 11:29:50 2007
From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King)
Date: Tue Jan 23 11:29:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701231044h78069f1eq6b80ec9c25e1aea6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180729g49983a7bi531cc5f503b35c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<2016BE9D-1AC6-436A-8670-BC93420FF86B@technorati.com>
	<923a87360701221224h6b20b902o70f44d9a385d148c@mail.gmail.com>
	<7E893072-EF44-4A71-A96A-10BD579164D3@technorati.com>
	<923a87360701231044h78069f1eq6b80ec9c25e1aea6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FD0C646E-CE16-4DD5-97CE-17499F62A3A5@technorati.com>

On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:44 AM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:

>> I disagree.
>>
>> First of all, you don't need both @rel and @rev for votelinks. Right
>> now you just need @rev to declare votes. Linking in the opposite
>> direction doesn't add anything, as it is a 3rd party assertion (or
>> hearsay).
>>
>> Secondly, if people can't figure out how to use it properly, they'll
>> use it improperly. Then people building tools will have to deal with
>> that confusion. It's better to just make the technology simpler and
>> unambiguous.
>>
>> Removing @rev is not hobbling HTML5. Very few people who use it
>> properly and even more use it improperly. See Google Web Authoring
>> statistics for more data [1].
>
> As I'm sure you're already aware, two discreet bits of data are
> communicated via the rev/rel attributes. The attribute itself
> communicates the direction of the relationship while the value states
> the type of relationship. By dropping one of the directions, you
> introduce ambiguity in the data.

I understand that the attributes, as defined specify the direction of  
the relationship. However, it has been found in practice that people  
confuse these and misuse the two attributes. So, that ambiguity is  
already there in practice, but not reflected in the specification.  
HTML5 is a step towards having the spec better line up with the real  
world.

> At least one real world example for the implementation of a rev/rel
> relationship exists: my previously stated "site of the month"
> scenario. A vote using rev is made for a site of the month. That site
> in turn will link back to the originator via an icon with a rel. This
> would properly describe the forward/reverse relationships between
> sites. To a machine crawling the vote icon (rel), it will properly
> pick up the URL of as the source for the vote and not a site that's
> being voted for. Similarly, if a machine were to crawl the site where
> the "sites of the month" are picked, it would know that this is the
> originator who is voting (rev). The ambiguity caused by ignoring the
> direction of the vote could really throw off stats when tallying
> votes. And that's just one example.

I'm not saying we should ignore the direction of links. I'm saying  
that we can only really annotate them in one direction. As someone  
who works for a search engine, I can safely say that third-party  
assertions (eg, "that site over there voted for me") are unhelpful  
and usually ignored.

> I don't agree that rev should be dropped in order to fall in line with
> the way rel is being (badly) used today. Rather, if a change is to be
> made to the spec, it would make more sense to revisit the entire
> attribute set so as to come up with something that is easier to
> use/understand while still being able to define a direction for the
> relationship as well as a type.

WHATWG's mission is to make HTML5 backwards compatible with the way  
that HTML4 is deployed today. Revisiting the entire attribute set  
would be out of the question. But, of course, I can't speak for them.

To reiterate my main point, @rel and @rev are often confused by web  
authors today, which means that people writing consuming applications  
must treat them as such. When a web page says <link  
rev=stylesheet .../> you can't take it at it's word. That's just the  
way things are, and it'd be unreasonable to try and change the entire  
web to work in 'strict mode'.

> Either that, or we should stick with
> the existing spec and simply require developers to understand and use
> it correctly. Nobody dumbs down compilers because of thick coders, why
> is this any different? It took me a couple of posts on this list and I
> ended up learning.

I wouldn't call people 'thick' just because they don't understand the  
difference between @rev and @rel. I've seen numerous people (myself  
included) mistake the two. Hey Tantek, why don't you tell everyone  
the story about how you and Kevin confused the two and wrote the  
wrong one into vote-links? :D

> If the spec just ends up bending to the popular usage, then what's the
> point behind the standards movement? We may as well invest our time
> writing better error correction.

The point is to build interoperable implementations, not make ideally  
pure languages. If you'll go read more about HTML5, you'd realize  
that large parts of its parsing section are about specifying a common  
error handling mechanism. Without that, there's little hope of having  
large numbers of user agents who can interpret an HTML document the  
same way.

Also, 'bending to popular usage' is what microformats are all about.  
We try and figure out how people are already using the web, the  
vocabulary that they use and the common use cases, then document that  
into a microformat. Formats and applications should follow behavior,  
not try and create it.

-ryan
--
Ryan King
ryan@technorati.com


From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 12:15:35 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Tue Jan 23 12:15:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <FD0C646E-CE16-4DD5-97CE-17499F62A3A5@technorati.com>
References: <923a87360701180720s4b0ab8c3y3350574b9c2ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701180740j7eb8a73mf1c594d02d7d2852@mail.gmail.com>
	<e86992a40701180749i91837a2q379d8f33cf13ce1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B11F70AF-1769-4986-BCA8-E76F2BFB1170@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701180813r1bd98e52u876cd2fdeca9e7fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<2016BE9D-1AC6-436A-8670-BC93420FF86B@technorati.com>
	<923a87360701221224h6b20b902o70f44d9a385d148c@mail.gmail.com>
	<7E893072-EF44-4A71-A96A-10BD579164D3@technorati.com>
	<923a87360701231044h78069f1eq6b80ec9c25e1aea6@mail.gmail.com>
	<FD0C646E-CE16-4DD5-97CE-17499F62A3A5@technorati.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701231215h70bd96b0u75d540427bd71b6f@mail.gmail.com>

> I understand that the attributes, as defined specify the direction of
> the relationship. However, it has been found in practice that people
> confuse these and misuse the two attributes. So, that ambiguity is
> already there in practice, but not reflected in the specification.
> HTML5 is a step towards having the spec better line up with the real
> world.

Is the direction being maintained or dropped in the HTML5 spec?

> I'm not saying we should ignore the direction of links. I'm saying
> that we can only really annotate them in one direction. As someone
> who works for a search engine, I can safely say that third-party
> assertions (eg, "that site over there voted for me") are unhelpful
> and usually ignored.

Does that mean that search engines ignore XFN attributes? What defines
a third party assertion and what makes a legitimate "first-party"
assertion?

> WHATWG's mission is to make HTML5 backwards compatible with the way
> that HTML4 is deployed today. Revisiting the entire attribute set
> would be out of the question. But, of course, I can't speak for them.

I can appreciate the need for backwards compatibility, though I had
heard somewhere that HTML5 was redefining a lot of the existing markup
(or was that XHTML 2?)

> To reiterate my main point, @rel and @rev are often confused by web
> authors today, which means that people writing consuming applications
> must treat them as such. When a web page says <link
> rev=stylesheet .../> you can't take it at it's word. That's just the
> way things are, and it'd be unreasonable to try and change the entire
> web to work in 'strict mode'.

You're right, the ambiguity already exists in the badly marked up
data. But don't you think our effort should be spent educating those
who are writing the code rather than compensating for their mistakes?
Because the logical outcome to catering to their errors is a spec that
evolves into something that doesn't make any sense. But if the apps
that are crawling their sites don't pick up on their tags, they'll
quickly wake up to the proper syntax. Kinda of like when Google
doesn't crawl your site because you only have JavaScript generated
navigation links. I think that there's room for compromise. I'm not
saying "let's force the web to run in strict mode" per se, but if new
apps being launched were a little less forgiving, people would adapt
(and actually learn something in the process). I honestly believe the
power to push people toward the adoption of standards (the spec) is in
the hands of app developers and how lenient they choose to be with the
data they consume.

> I wouldn't call people 'thick' just because they don't understand the
> difference between @rev and @rel. I've seen numerous people (myself
> included) mistake the two. Hey Tantek, why don't you tell everyone
> the story about how you and Kevin confused the two and wrote the
> wrong one into vote-links? :D

I meant 'thick' in the nicest possible way (myself included). I'm more
than willing to admit that there's a whole lot that I don't know and I
don't appreciate for a moment that IE3/4 were forgiving of my bad
markup when I was learning to build sites. I stagnated for a long time
building crappy markup because of that.

> The point is to build interoperable implementations, not make ideally
> pure languages. If you'll go read more about HTML5, you'd realize
> that large parts of its parsing section are about specifying a common
> error handling mechanism. Without that, there's little hope of having
> large numbers of user agents who can interpret an HTML document the
> same way.

I agree 100% with the idea of interoperability and a common
interpretation of the spec in regards to error handling etc... But I
think a line needs to be drawn in what's defined as an error. I think
it's great that the browser doesn't break when I forget to close a <p>
tag. But it shouldn't go ahead and plow through reams and reams of
badly written code assuming I meant "a" when I wrote "xyz". I should
(as a developer worth his salt) learn to write "a" instead of "xyz"
instead of writing garbage and expecting gold. What ever happened to
GIGO? :-)

> Also, 'bending to popular usage' is what microformats are all about.
> We try and figure out how people are already using the web, the
> vocabulary that they use and the common use cases, then document that
> into a microformat. Formats and applications should follow behavior,
> not try and create it.

I think that the spirit of microformats is right in adopting the
standards that are in popular usage (ie adopting vcard for hcard). But
at the same time, I think it's a mistake to adopt bad practices and
use them because "everybody does it". Best example of not doing this
is the steady stream of developers now dropping table based design.
The alternative would have been for the spec writers to say "well,
everyone's using it, let's just alter the spec in the next version to
state that tables are also inteded for use in layout".

I appreciate your taking the time to discuss this.

A.
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jan 23 12:27:39 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jan 23 12:27:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701231022h59568dbbr431aef5398017ddc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1DBAF6B.85D41%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/23/07 10:22 AM, "David Janes" <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:

> Continuing the tradition of riffing off other threads to talk about
> what's on my mind...
> 
> On 1/23/07, Ryan King <ryan@technorati.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It's not a full CSS selector based search engine, but http://
>> kitchen.technorati.com/contacts/search/tantek.
>> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if there was a well defined way of getting from
> _an_ instance of a hCard to the _best_ (or canonical) hCard for that
> person.
> 
> Just saying; I know that some work has been done on this.

David Janes, you're right, we need to solve this problem.

I did some research on examples in the wild and possible approaches here:

<http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#hCard_to_hCard_relationshi
ps>

Please take a look and add your thoughts on the problem-space and/or
examples you have found in the wild for each type of "canonicalization"
(there are more than one).

Thanks,

Tantek

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jan 23 12:37:39 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jan 23 12:36:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701231215h70bd96b0u75d540427bd71b6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1DBB1C0.85D47%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/23/07 12:15 PM, "Ara Pehlivanian" <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I wouldn't call people 'thick' just because they don't understand the
>> difference between @rev and @rel. I've seen numerous people (myself
>> included) mistake the two. Hey Tantek, why don't you tell everyone
>> the story about how you and Kevin confused the two and wrote the
>> wrong one into vote-links? :D
> 
> I meant 'thick' in the nicest possible way (myself included). I'm more
> than willing to admit that there's a whole lot that I don't know and I
> don't appreciate for a moment that IE3/4 were forgiving of my bad
> markup when I was learning to build sites. I stagnated for a long time
> building crappy markup because of that.

Ara, the point is that with rel/rev in particular, it has confused *even the
people that are supposed to be experts*.  As Ryan points out, I myself got
it wrong when I initially proposed to Kevin Marks that we use 'rel' for
VoteLinks instead of their initial idea of using a new HTML attribute
'vote'.  In fact I can say that *everyone* (without exception) I have spoken
with who has tried to use rel/rev has made this mistake at some point,
including a lot of the people on this list.

The 'rel' / 'rev' distinction is perhaps one of *the most* confusing things
in HTML4 (if not *the most confusing*).  It is an outlier in the extent of
confusion caused.


>> Also, 'bending to popular usage' is what microformats are all about.
>> We try and figure out how people are already using the web, the
>> vocabulary that they use and the common use cases, then document that
>> into a microformat.

I know Ryan was summarizing, but to be clear (since this is a common
misconception), how people are using the web is taken as an *input* to the
process[1], NOT the conclusion.  From those real world examples we produce
analysis, implied schemas etc., and then take as additional input
established vocabulary, formats etc. and synthesize them through the process
into brainstorms which are eventually distilled into microformats.

>> Formats and applications should follow behavior,
>> not try and create it.

Yes.  Certainly for the 80/20 case.  And certainly pre-existing behavior
should drive the development of a format.  Only in the rare case that there
is no pre-existing behavior for a type of data does it make sense to try and
invent, but that set of solutions is outside the scope of microformats since
microformats are based on paving the cowpaths.


> I think that the spirit of microformats is right in adopting the
> standards that are in popular usage (ie adopting vcard for hcard). But
> at the same time, I think it's a mistake to adopt bad practices and
> use them because "everybody does it".

Agreed.  Hence why I pointed out that existing practices are only an *input*
to the process, not the conclusion.


> Best example of not doing this
> is the steady stream of developers now dropping table based design.
> The alternative would have been for the spec writers to say "well,
> everyone's using it, let's just alter the spec in the next version to
> state that tables are also inteded for use in layout".

Right, user/developer behavior is an indicator of the *need* for a solution,
not necessarily the solution itself.  Hence W3C took that behavior as input
and produced CSS table layout as a solution, rather than simply saying "go
ahead and use <table> for layout".

Thanks,

Tantek

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/process

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jan 23 12:39:36 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jan 23 13:01:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="pavatar"
In-Reply-To: <B051F794-C8F4-4635-949C-790749C065B3@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <d65ec020a92425dbf62238ea02c07102@mail.genetsis.de>
	<a62a2161376dc190bc80a4713451d7a3@mail.genetsis.de>
	<B051F794-C8F4-4635-949C-790749C065B3@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5M2k61QIKntFFwwl@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <B051F794-C8F4-4635-949C-790749C065B3@ben-ward.co.uk>, Ben
Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> writes

><liste@jeenaparadies.net> wrote:
>> Is there no interrest in such a microformat like rel="pavatar"?

It's been listed as a "rejected microformat":

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/rejected-formats>

though I can find no such rejection, by this community. Perhaps someone
can give a reference?

Note that the suggested solution there is unworkable, It recommends:

        use hCard, in particular, "photo" and/or "logo" properties.

if both are used, there is ambiguity:

        <div class="vcard">
                <span class="fn">John Doe</span>
                <img class="logo" src="http://example.com/picA.png"
                alt="" />
                <img class="photo" src="http://example.com/picB.png"
                alt="" />
        </div>

Which is the avatar - picA or picB?

>Without getting into the technicalities of ?what makes a microformat?
>at this stage, I think another reason for lack of interest is that
>really, the hCard microformat can already provide the same function.
>
>The ?logo? property of hCard [1] is already used in the wild (to what
>degree I can't say) to mark up ?avatar? images.
>
>So for example:
>
>       <link href="http://example.com/pic.png" rel="pavatar">
>
>Can be represented within an hCard:
>
>       <div class="vcard">
>               <span class="fn">Ben Ward</span>
>               <img class="logo" src="http://example.com/pic.png" alt="" />
>       </div>

That doesn't though, say whether or not the logo is an avatar; unlike:

        <div class="vcard">
                <span class="fn">Ben Ward</span>
                <img class="logo" rel="pavatar"
                src="http://example.com/pic.png" alt="" />
        </div>

which is clearly unambiguous, and has additional semantic content.

>Therefore, I think that demand for your pavatar specification is
>limited here as there is in effect an existing solution, which goes
>further than pavatar by making the image a visible part of the  content
>as well.

Were "rel-pavatar" (or "rel-avatar", or "rel-havatar" or whatever) to
become a microformat in its own right, it could me made to only apply as
a rel attribute on an img (or possibly other such object); as such, it
would be no less visible.

See also this discussion of pavatar as a microformat:

        <http://pavatar.com/forum/forum_entry.php?id=13>


-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 20-day week!

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Tue Jan 23 13:05:28 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Tue Jan 23 13:05:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <C1DBAF6B.85D41%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <21e523c20701231022h59568dbbr431aef5398017ddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBAF6B.85D41%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701231305u4b3e6c24h2973b9a292a9e881@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/23/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> David Janes, you're right, we need to solve this problem.
>
> I did some research on examples in the wild and possible approaches here:
>
> <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#hCard_to_hCard_relationshi
> ps>
>
> Please take a look and add your thoughts on the problem-space and/or
> examples you have found in the wild for each type of "canonicalization"
> (there are more than one).

Well, strangely enough I do have ideas in this area. I'm going to
outline them here and move them into the wiki tomorrow, in case
there's interesting discussion.

My starting assumptions are:

- no changes should be needed to a hCard that has a "url"
- hinting is allowed, but not needed
- we follow the OpenID model of indirection [1]

The idea works like this:

- a consumer sees a hcard, say

<address class="author vcard">
  <a class="url fn" href="http://theryanking.com">Ryan</a>
</address>

- the consumer looks at "http://theryanking.com"

- if the consumer sees a <link> element like the following, it knows
there is a canonical hCard. The title must be the same as the "fn" (?)

<link rel="identity.hcard" title="Ryan"
href="http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard" />

- the consumer reads this page
("http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/") and finds the canonical hCard
at id "vcard"

Notes:
- if the non-canonical hCard url has a fragment and that points to a
hCard, assume we are done
- if there is no fragment in the non-canonical hCard url, a <link> is required
- if the link does not have a fragment, the first hCard on the page is
the one we use
- I've documented this here [2] (but discuss here please)
- we could add an extra class element, say "canonical" that could be
used in conjuction with the url to guarentee there is a canonical
hCard to be found; I'm not really sure if this is necessary though.

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2006-09-12-0001/
[2] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2006-09-12-0003/

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jan 23 14:09:53 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jan 23 14:09:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701231305u4b3e6c24h2973b9a292a9e881@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/23/07 1:05 PM, "David Janes" <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:

> On 1/23/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> David Janes, you're right, we need to solve this problem.
>> 
>> I did some research on examples in the wild and possible approaches here:
>> 
>> <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#hCard_to_hCard_relationshi
>> ps>
>> 
>> Please take a look and add your thoughts on the problem-space and/or
>> examples you have found in the wild for each type of "canonicalization"
>> (there are more than one).
> 
> Well, strangely enough I do have ideas in this area. I'm going to
> outline them here and move them into the wiki tomorrow, in case
> there's interesting discussion.
> 
> My starting assumptions are:
> 
> - no changes should be needed to a hCard that has a "url"
> - hinting is allowed, but not needed

I agree with those.


> - we follow the OpenID model of indirection [1]

I disagree because it involves invisible metadata.

We should avoid <link> and MUST avoid <meta> for that reason in
microformats.



> The idea works like this:

Document Examples in the Wild first of people linking to their and others'
hCards, and that will drive the scope of the solution.

Brainstorming will be much better AFTER we have documented examples in the
wild and can then reason using those examples rather than hypothetical
examples.



> - a consumer sees a hcard, say
> 
> <address class="author vcard">
> <a class="url fn" href="http://theryanking.com">Ryan</a>
> </address>
> 
> - the consumer looks at "http://theryanking.com"
> 
> - if the consumer sees a <link> element like the following, it knows
> there is a canonical hCard. The title must be the same as the "fn" (?)
> 
> <link rel="identity.hcard" title="Ryan"
> href="http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard" />

I'm ok with entertaining a new rel value as indicated on
<http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#hCard_to_hCard_relationshi
ps> but not ok with requiring or requesting use of <link> for this.

Any such links should use <a href> and be visible.


> - the consumer reads this page
> ("http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/") and finds the canonical hCard
> at id "vcard"

This part I believe a reasonable end goal.


> Notes:
> - if the non-canonical hCard url has a fragment and that points to a
> hCard, assume we are done

I don't think that can be assumed, because it is a 3rd party link (most
likely).  The 1st party may have changed the fragment at the destination
etc.


> - if there is no fragment in the non-canonical hCard url, a <link> is required

<link> should never be required, and should be avoided.


> - if the link does not have a fragment, the first hCard on the page is
> the one we use

That's a reasonable fallback, but before that, I'd even advocate looking for
the first <address> that is or contains an hCard on the page, since that's
following prescribed behavior from HTML4.


> - I've documented this here [2] (but discuss here please)
> - we could add an extra class element, say "canonical" that could be
> used in conjuction with the url to guarentee there is a canonical
> hCard to be found; I'm not really sure if this is necessary though.

I'm not sure that is necessary either, as the opinion of "canonicality" is
not from an item itself but rather from references to that item which tends
make it more like a relationship rather than just a class.


> Regards, etc...
> David
> 
> [1] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2006-09-12-0001/
> [2] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2006-09-12-0003/

Thanks David Janes,

Tantek


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jan 23 14:31:29 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jan 23 14:49:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo- extension (Luna. Mars) proposal updated
Message-ID: <7TUUdZTBzotFFwg9@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


I have received a series of helpful comments on the Geo-extension
proposal:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-strawman>

from Brent A. Archinal, Geodesist with the Astrogeology Team of the U.S.
Geological Survey

With his permission, I've added them to the above page.

I've also updated the straw-man proposal, accordingly.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 20-day week!
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 15:19:09 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Tue Jan 23 15:19:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <C1DBB1C0.85D47%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <923a87360701231215h70bd96b0u75d540427bd71b6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBB1C0.85D47%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <923a87360701231519s783f0e50wb55eb819d2c7bf47@mail.gmail.com>

> Ara, the point is that with rel/rev in particular, it has confused *even the
> people that are supposed to be experts*.  As Ryan points out, I myself got
> it wrong when I initially proposed to Kevin Marks that we use 'rel' for
> VoteLinks instead of their initial idea of using a new HTML attribute
> 'vote'.  In fact I can say that *everyone* (without exception) I have spoken
> with who has tried to use rel/rev has made this mistake at some point,
> including a lot of the people on this list.
>
> The 'rel' / 'rev' distinction is perhaps one of *the most* confusing things
> in HTML4 (if not *the most confusing*).  It is an outlier in the extent of
> confusion caused.

I think this issue is quickly becoming something that's probably
better discussed in the HTML5 discussion forum and/or list. Because
we're getting into a debate on whether or not we should
keep/modify/alter the spec for @rev and @rel. And really, I don't even
know if we're debating because believe me, I'm in complete agreement
with you that trying to work out which to use is a royal pain in the
neck. I'm not at all certain though that only one attribute is the
best solution because in some applications, being able to communicate
the direction of the relationship can be important.

As a matter of fact I'm working on a WaSP proposal that would use the
vote link spec to vote for articles on the web and it made sense to me
that those documents could have rel links back to the WaSP voting
page.

My motivation for pushing the use of both rev and rel comes from roots
in web standards and the idea that we should use "the right tool for
the right job", i.e. semantics.

(bonus points to whoever knows the quote reference.) :-)

A.
From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Jan 23 16:12:45 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Jan 23 16:12:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="pavatar"
In-Reply-To: <5M2k61QIKntFFwwl@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <d65ec020a92425dbf62238ea02c07102@mail.genetsis.de>
	<a62a2161376dc190bc80a4713451d7a3@mail.genetsis.de>
	<B051F794-C8F4-4635-949C-790749C065B3@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<5M2k61QIKntFFwwl@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <7A8B5398-6A58-49F6-BA33-4B52DCA1888A@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 23, 2007, at 2:39 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> It's been listed as a "rejected microformat":
>
>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/rejected-formats>
>
> though I can find no such rejection, by this community. Perhaps  
> someone
> can give a reference?

On Dec 28, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Paul Bryson wrote:

> "Charles Iliya Krempeaux"
> <supercanadian@gmail.com> wrote...
>> I'd agree with this if hCards allowed for multiple PHOTO's or LOGO's.
>> So, from my perspective, the question comes down to: does an hCard
>> support mutiple PHOTO's or LOGO's?  (My understanding so far is that
>> they don't.  But please correct me if I'm wrong.)
>
> I am currently using "logo" to display an avatar.  But I am curious  
> if more
> than one photo/logo is allowed per hCard.

Then someone said more than one photo/logo is allowed, and I believe  
at that point everyone involved in the discussion was satisfied there  
was no longer a problem to be solved.  But this may be a new problem:

> Which is the avatar - picA or picB?

The one with "avatar" in the alt attribute?  Is anyone experiencing  
this problem on the web currently?  If so, it would be helpful to  
look at the problem in context.  If not, let's not worry about  
hypothetical problems.

Peace,
Scott
From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Jan 23 15:51:34 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Jan 23 16:12:57 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <11A5F597-2FD9-457C-92A9-8DDF24EC622C@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 23, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote:

> Document Examples in the Wild first of people linking to their and  
> others'
> hCards, and that will drive the scope of the solution.

Does this need to be limited to hCard?  I think identifying pointers  
to a canonical source of data is a broader problem, as copying and  
manipulating data between sites is a standard activity on the web.   
Any search engine is full of links back to canonical sources.   
Trackbacks are links back to canonical sources.  Bloggers quoting  
each other typically link back to canonical sources.  Pingerati has  
three links back to canonical sources of what could be abbreviated  
hcards (fn only), and right under that is the same thing for events  
and reviews.  Can we expand the types of examples we're looking at?

Peace,
Scott


From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jan 23 17:00:09 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jan 23 16:59:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <11A5F597-2FD9-457C-92A9-8DDF24EC622C@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <C1DBEF4C.85D99%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/23/07 3:51 PM, "Scott Reynen" <scott@randomchaos.com> wrote:

> On Jan 23, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote:
> 
>> Document Examples in the Wild first of people linking to their and
>> others'
>> hCards, and that will drive the scope of the solution.
> 
> Does this need to be limited to hCard?

It doesn't *need* to be no, but in the interest of "solve a specific
problem" (principle #1 [1]), let's solve this for hCard first, with real
world hCard examples driving the design.


> I think identifying pointers
> to a canonical source of data is a broader problem, as copying and
> manipulating data between sites is a standard activity on the web.

Agreed.  However I find that the specific types of data may have specific
canonicalization semantics that we should be careful not to accidentally
overlook (we may choose to later overlook them explicitly in the interest of
creating a building block that can be used across formats, but that should
be an explicit decision, not an incidental one).


> Any search engine is full of links back to canonical sources.

Actually I find that most search engines are full of links back to
*multiple* sources of often the same thing without any semantic on
canonicality presented or implied.


> Trackbacks are links back to canonical sources.  Bloggers quoting
> each other typically link back to canonical sources.  Pingerati has
> three links back to canonical sources of what could be abbreviated
> hcards (fn only), and right under that is the same thing for events
> and reviews.  Can we expand the types of examples we're looking at?

None of those examples given are actually "canonical" sources, they're
merely citations and quotations of sources (for which we have existing HTML
semantics for: <cite> <q cite> <blockquote cite>.  The semantic of
canonicality is not necessarily implied, only that the content came from
somewhere else, not that that somewhere else is the best / most
representative (i.e. canonical) instance of that content.

Thanks,

Tantek

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles


From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jan 23 17:04:09 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jan 23 17:03:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] rel="pavatar"
In-Reply-To: <7A8B5398-6A58-49F6-BA33-4B52DCA1888A@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <C1DBF03E.85D9D%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/23/07 4:12 PM, "Scott Reynen" <scott@randomchaos.com> wrote:

> On Jan 23, 2007, at 2:39 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> 
>> It's been listed as a "rejected microformat":
>> 
>>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/rejected-formats>
>> 
>> though I can find no such rejection, by this community. Perhaps
>> someone
>> can give a reference?
> 
> On Dec 28, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Paul Bryson wrote:
> 
>> "Charles Iliya Krempeaux"
>> <supercanadian@gmail.com> wrote...
>>> I'd agree with this if hCards allowed for multiple PHOTO's or LOGO's.
>>> So, from my perspective, the question comes down to: does an hCard
>>> support mutiple PHOTO's or LOGO's?  (My understanding so far is that
>>> they don't.  But please correct me if I'm wrong.)
>> 
>> I am currently using "logo" to display an avatar.  But I am curious
>> if more
>> than one photo/logo is allowed per hCard.
> 
> Then someone said more than one photo/logo is allowed, and I believe
> at that point everyone involved in the discussion was satisfied there
> was no longer a problem to be solved.  But this may be a new problem:
> 
>> Which is the avatar - picA or picB?
> 
> The one with "avatar" in the alt attribute?

I suspect you meant that facetiously but I don't think it would be wise to
prescribe specific values for the alt attribute like that outside of an
actual documented need.


> Is anyone experiencing
> this problem on the web currently?  If so, it would be helpful to
> look at the problem in context.  If not, let's not worry about
> hypothetical problems.

Agreed. If someone is having trouble with their consuming application that
needs icons/avatars for people, let's hear the specific concrete problem
(which may be more appropriate for the microformats-dev list since it would
involve an actual implementation).

For now it may be simple enough to say that in the case of finding more than
one (photo|logo), it is up to the consuming application to choose the most
appropriate one (perhaps looking at image sizes etc.) if it needs to pick
just one to be an icon/avatar.

Tantek

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jan 23 17:43:05 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jan 23 17:42:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] moving "latitude longitude shorthand" from
	brainstorming to geo, hCard
Message-ID: <C1DBF99B.85DB1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

A while ago it was brainstormed that we allow a single text string to
contain a geo lat long coordinate:

<http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#latitude_longitude_shortha
nd>

To date there are now several examples in the wild using that syntax
successfully in their content, as well as implementation experience parsing
it (notably, Operator, per mkaply in IRC today).

In short, it appears we have enough successful experience with this
syntactic addition to "geo" (and hence hCard) to justify moving it from
brainstorming into the geo and hCard specs themselves.  Note that no new
semantics (properties or values) are being introduced.

Anybody out there have any real world examples of problems or issues with
this addition? (i.e. pages where you tried to add it and it didn't work or
caused problems, or implementations which tried to parse it but had
problems)

In addition - any general opinions or thoughts on the "latitude longitude
shorthand"?

Thanks,

Tantek

From joe at andrieu.net  Tue Jan 23 18:46:35 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Tue Jan 23 18:46:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was:
	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <C1DBEF4C.85D99%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>

Tantek ? elik wrote
> On 1/23/07 3:51 PM, "Scott Reynen" <scott@randomchaos.com> wrote:
> > I think identifying pointers
> > to a canonical source of data is a broader problem, as copying and 
> > manipulating data between sites is a standard activity on the web.
> 
> Agreed.  However I find that the specific types of data may 
> have specific canonicalization semantics that we should be 
> careful not to accidentally overlook (we may choose to later 
> overlook them explicitly in the interest of creating a 
> building block that can be used across formats, but that 
> should be an explicit decision, not an incidental one).
> 
> 
> > Any search engine is full of links back to canonical sources.
> 
> Actually I find that most search engines are full of links back to
> *multiple* sources of often the same thing without any 
> semantic on canonicality presented or implied.
> 
> 
> > Trackbacks are links back to canonical sources.  Bloggers 
> quoting each 
> > other typically link back to canonical sources.  Pingerati 
> has three 
> > links back to canonical sources of what could be abbreviated hcards 
> > (fn only), and right under that is the same thing for events and 
> > reviews.  Can we expand the types of examples we're looking at?
> 
> None of those examples given are actually "canonical" 
> sources, they're merely citations and quotations of sources 
> (for which we have existing HTML semantics for: <cite> <q 
> cite> <blockquote cite>.  The semantic of canonicality is not 
> necessarily implied, only that the content came from 
> somewhere else, not that that somewhere else is the best / 
> most representative (i.e. canonical) instance of that content.

I think we don't mean "canonical" here, and perhaps fixing that will
clarify a use case that distinguishes the opportunity.

Canonical means part of a canon, or of the form of the canon, especially
when used in the sense of converting a morphological entity into an
alternative form.  2007/06/05 and June 6, 2007 both represent the same
date, only one can be canonical for any given canon.  We tend to like
ISO as a canon around here.  Canonical forms are articularly useful when
sorting, comparing, or looking up things that could be presented in
alternative formats.

What I think is much more useful is /authoritative/ hCards.  Meaning
that this is the author's truth for this reference.  The authoritative
reference is the root source of the reference.  It is close to
definitive, but definitive assumes objectivity, whereas authoritative
retains the subjectivity of the author.

This sense of subjectivity is where hCards can play a huge role.  An
authoritative hCard is, in effect, making a claim that it /is/ the
authoritative source for this data. It is not objective truth, simply a
claim by the author.

A few two major things happen when you do this:
1. You enable an hCard author to semantically declare this hCard as
"definitive"
2. You could provide a link from a refering hCard to the authoritative
hCard for discovery of additional information that isn't appropriate for
the design or context of the "refering" hCard.

If an authoritative hCard URL is also a permalink, it could then become
a single point of updates and changes that can suitably propagate out to
the world, a la Linked In.  

Furthermore, if the authoritative representation is dated in some way,
one might be able to discern between out of date and current claims to
authority on a topic.  (However, I definitely don't regard assertions
about chronological superiority as valid means to disambiguate such
claims; this is definitly a "hypothetical").

And to skip a bunch of other hypotheticals out there, I think it also
doesn't really matter if there are multiple "authoritative" hCards out
there.  What's useful is allowing someone to distinguish a claim to
authority for an hCard (say on my website) that is knowably distinct
from simple refering hCards (say on http://projectvrm.org where I am a
contributor; examples follow.)  False or duplicate claims to authority
are red herrings. The real value is to say "this isn't authoritive; and
btw, you might go look over there."

So, I think there are two different uses here that actually require two
different solutions.
 (1) to be able to indicate a claim that an hCard is authoritative. 
 (2) to be able to link a "brief" hCard to a source that was considered
authoritative (or even just /more/ authoritative) at the time the brief
hCard was created, in order to provide potentially more up-to-date
and/or more detailed information.

For instance, I currently present my information on my business website
as the authoritative "business" hCard for me and as a result of this
conversation, I've linked to that from Project VRM using hCard
semantics.

(1) my "authoritative" hCard
http://www.switchbook.com

<div class="contact vcard">For inquiries:<br/>
 <div class="fn">Joe Andrieu</div>
 <a class="email"
href="mailto:joe@switchbook.com">joe@switchbook.com</a><br/></a>
 <div class="tel">+1 (805) 705-8651</div>
 <a class="url org" href="http://www.switchbook.com"><span
class="switch">Switch</span>Book Software</a>
 <div class="adr">
  <span class="street-address">2032-A Chapala St.</span>, <span
class="locality">Santa Barbara</span>, <span class="region">CA</span>
<span class="postal-code">93105</span>
 </div>
 <br/>You may also want to check out my <a
href="http://blog.joeandrieu.com/">blog</a>.
</div>

(2) a reference to it where a full hCard is impractical:
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/projectvrm/Blogs#Blog_posts_on_VRM   

It is in a wiki:

<span class="contact vcard"><span class="fn">Joe
Andrieu</span><nowiki>[</nowiki><span class="url
org">[http://www.switchbook.com/ @]</span></span><nowiki>]</nowiki>

Which generates:
<span class="contact vcard"><span class="fn">Joe Andrieu</span>[<span
class="url org"><a href="http://www.switchbook.com/" class="external
text" title="http://www.switchbook.com/"
rel="nofollow">@</a></span></span>]

And looks pretty much how I want:
Joe Andrieu [@]


With the @ sign the link to the "authoritative" hCard.

If we presume for the moment that http://www.switchbook.com is the
authoritative reference for my hCard in this context, then, I /think/
that addresses use case #2, above, correct? The URL class in the hcard
point to a "more authoritative" hCard, where I have far more information
than fit in the reference at Project VRM.


However, we still have no official way for me to indicate in the hCard
at http://www.switchbook.com that it is an authoritative reference.  

Unless we use the self-referencing URL trick to indicate
"authoritative", in which case the current example solves both (1) and
(2). In effect, citing oneself as the "more authoritative" hCard means
that /this/ hCard is the most authoritative available (at the time of
creating the hCard, to the best knowledge of the author, etc.).


Working through this leads me to think that an hCard that exists at its
self-referenced URI should be considered "authoritative."



-j

p.s. I'd appreciate feedback on any errors in the above microformats. 

--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651





From jeremyboggs at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 20:04:01 2007
From: jeremyboggs at gmail.com (Jeremy Boggs)
Date: Tue Jan 23 20:03:32 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard Markup for Office Hours
Message-ID: <1D87965D-1239-441A-886A-A5B103C44819@gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm trying to mark up my office hours for my online course syllabus  
using hCalendar. My office hours are every Tuesday and Thursday,  
3-5PM (until May 10, the end of the semester). I have used the  
following hCalendar markup:

<div class="vevent">
	
	<div class="summary">Office Hours</div>

	<abbr title="20070123T150000" class="dtstart">Tuesday</abbr>, <abbr  
title="20070123T170000" class="dtend">Thursday: 3:00PM-5:00PM</abbr>

	<div class="rrule">Repeat: <span class="freq">Weekly</span>, <span  
class="interval">1</span>, <abbr title="20070511T170000"  
class="until">May 10, 2007</abbr>, <abbr title="Tuesday"  
class="byday">TU</abbr>, <abbr title="Thursday" class="byday">TH</ 
abbr></div>
	
</div>

A plain HTML file of the page is available (http://clioweb.org/ 
officehours.html). Does anyone have thoughts on how I've marked up my  
office hours? Is this a correct use of RRULE? Or are there better  
ways of marking up this information?

I used an example with an RRULE value from the hcalendar-examples page 
[1] to do the markup, though I have more conditions in my RRULE than  
the example given. Is anyone else working on examples of repeated  
events and hCalendar?

Thanks!
Jeremy

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples#Example_3
From mdagn at spraci.com  Wed Jan 24 20:25:28 2007
From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD)
Date: Wed Jan 24 01:25:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end date?
References: <21e770780701210716q35337c84j460b9cb690794153@mail.gmail.com><B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD3B@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
	<21e770780701221245h574bb692l596c2965727fdd7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c74038$db29e290$116bacca@COMCEN>

> --- this is when you will have to give an ISO date of what you think
> best respresents that season.
>

I hope this won't encourage people to put in approximate dates (as full 
dates) to represent a month when the day of the month is not known when 
marking up future events that may end up being aggregated into listings 
somewhere.

It may result in people turning up to events on the wrong dates if the dates 
end up being shown with a (possibly wrong) day of month!!!



From mark at geekhive.net  Wed Jan 24 01:51:59 2007
From: mark at geekhive.net (Mark)
Date: Wed Jan 24 01:54:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard agent
Message-ID: <20070124095159.GK26096@who.int>

Hi All,

I'm pulling this question out of an earlier thread, because I think
maybe it was buried.  

I'm trying to figure out a good way to label multiple phone numbers for
a given entity (in this case a performance venue) so that the labels are
human-useable, and of course work within the format.

For example, a concert hall has a number of "work" phone numbers, one
for the box-office and one for administration.  There might be yet
another number for a technical contact for discussing things like lights
and sound, stagecraft, etc.

I'm starting to think that the only way to communicate the different
purposes for these contacts with hCard is to treat them as separate, but
linked contacts.  My question is: is the agent attribute/property the
right way to insert this linkage?  If so how is it best used?  Should I
just embed one vcard in another, or should I use a URL? 

Thanks for your time,

-mark

-- 
--
=================================================================
-- mark at geekhive dot net --
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Wed Jan 24 02:36:02 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Wed Jan 24 02:36:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <21e523c20701231305u4b3e6c24h2973b9a292a9e881@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>

(0)
I agreee with Joe that "canonical" is the wrong word. "authorative" is
better. "best" is too vague.

On 1/23/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On 1/23/07 1:05 PM, "David Janes" <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1/23/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> Please take a look and add your thoughts on the problem-space and/or
> >> examples you have found in the wild for each type of "canonicalization"
> >> (there are more than one).
>
> Brainstorming will be much better AFTER we have documented examples in the
> wild and can then reason using those examples rather than hypothetical
> examples.

(1)

OK, I'm not going to get in a pissing match over this but you did ask
what's my _thoughts_ on this.

In any case, can we do this in a non-prescriptive manner - are we not
entering new terroritory here? We know

(a) people want this problem solved
(b) people are not solving this problem because they're waiting for
some to tell them how

Let me ask this: is there a _single_ example out there of what we want to do?

(2)

I disagree with you on the LINK matter, because I think

(a) it's not, strictly speaking, part of the microformat; it's a
description of behaviours to do with a microformat
(b) if they get it wrong, it is unlikely to introduce incorrect data
(i.e. graceful failure)
(c) "home page" (i.e. url) as a directory of sorts using LINK is a
well-understood (OpenID) and well-used (RSS/Atom) concept

However, I'm not going to getting in a fight over this either. No LINKs.

(3)

Do you (Tantek + all) agree with the following "architecture", or it
least think it's worth pursuing further:

(a) hCards without additional markup; "url" is used to lookup a URL
(b) at the URL we can either find:
(b.i) the authorative hCard; OR
(b.ii) a pointer to authorative URL with the authorative hCard
(c) it's easy to find the authorative hCard on the authorative URL

I'm sure we have the technology to to (b.ii), I just don't know if
anyone has done it. Anyone?

The reason I'm asking is I'm more willing to plug work into this, but
not if you've already decided that this approach will not work.

Regards, etc...
David

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com

From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Wed Jan 24 02:56:48 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Wed Jan 24 02:56:51 2007
Subject: =?iso-8859-7?q?=C8=DD=EC=E1:=20Re:=20[uf-discuss]=20Expressing=20an=20eve?=
	=?iso-8859-7?q?nt=20that=20only=20has=20an=20end=20date=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <00a101c74038$db29e290$116bacca@COMCEN>
Message-ID: <296205.35275.qm@web27102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


--- Michael MD <mdagn@spraci.com> ??????:

> > --- this is when you will have to give an ISO date
> of what you think
> > best respresents that season.
> >
> 
> I hope this won't encourage people to put in
> approximate dates (as full 
> dates) to represent a month when the day of the
> month is not known when 
> marking up future events that may end up being
> aggregated into listings 
> somewhere.
> 
> It may result in people turning up to events on the
> wrong dates if the dates 
> end up being shown with a (possibly wrong) day of
> month!!!

On the other hand, many historical events have
abbreviated dates like, "in March 1789" or "-0480" (BC
obviously), so it's good to be able to express that,
though I'd use "dtstamp" for the above.

Dimitrios


	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
?????????????? Yahoo!; 
?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? (spam); ?? Yahoo! Mail 
???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????????? 
????????? http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Wed Jan 24 03:15:00 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Wed Jan 24 03:15:02 2007
Subject: =?iso-8859-7?q?=C8=DD=EC=E1:=20[uf-discuss]=20Thoughts=20on=20extending?=
	=?iso-8859-7?q?=20the=20geo=20microformat?=
In-Reply-To: <20070118235101.63203.qmail@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070124111500.79958.qmail@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

It looks like something like:

<div class="vevent">
  <span class="summary">testing</span>
  <abbr class='geo' title='38;24'> in Athens</abbr> on
 
  <abbr class="dtstamp" title="-20070124">Jan 24,
2007</abbr> 
</div>

could be one answer to my problem of getting a geo
with a timestamp. I've tested it with Operator and it
accepts both the geo and the date.

Could that be an acceptable form, i.e. not violating
the specs? I see that a dtstart property is mandatory,
but I want to use dtstamp, since it's a better fit for
the purpose.

Shouldn't that be either dtstamp or dtstart? (being
mandatory)

Thanks
Dimitios


	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
?????????????? Yahoo!; 
?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? (spam); ?? Yahoo! Mail 
???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????????? 
????????? http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 03:18:41 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan 24 03:18:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701231305u4b3e6c24h2973b9a292a9e881@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701240318v1608c681qbbd747f33cdae965@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/24/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> Do you (Tantek + all) agree with the following "architecture", or it
> least think it's worth pursuing further:
>
> (a) hCards without additional markup; "url" is used to lookup a URL
> (b) at the URL we can either find:
> (b.i) the authorative hCard; OR
> (b.ii) a pointer to authorative URL with the authorative hCard
> (c) it's easy to find the authorative hCard on the authorative URL
>
> I'm sure we have the technology to to (b.ii), I just don't know if
> anyone has done it. Anyone?

I believe that http://rubhub.com/main/ acts in a similar manner. When
it finds XFN values it continues to crawl those URLs.

In a similar vein, an hCard spider could find hCards in a page with a
URL. They could then follow that URL to the person's page. Then
inspect for hCards. If none are found, it could simply follow all
rel-me links. Since rel-me is published by the author of the page,
[it is a safe asssumption?] that the subsequent requested pages are
also controled by the author. Then hCards could be looked for on those
pages as well. The problem arrises when multiple hCards are
encountered on a page - which is the authorative hCard? This issue is
not a problem with the spider, but with the mechanism to say "THIS
hCard is the one you want" (you suggested an anchor link #vcard), but
using some hueristics, it might be possible to match the URL of the
ORIGINAL hCard that started this spidering, and any hCards found in
the rel-me crawl. If the URLs match, then you could (with some degree
of certainly) collapse the values into a more robust hCard.


For example, if i leave a comment on XYZ blog. It cites me as the
author and uses and hCard.
<p class="vcard">posted by: <a class="fn url"
href="http://suda.co.uk/">Brian Suda</a></p>

So the spider will find my URL in XYZ blog and begin to spider
suda.co.uk for any rel-me links. It finds some onthe homepage to my
contact page and to my publications page. On the publications page it
finds several hCards for various events, organizations, etc. Each of
those is compared to the original from XYZ blog. The FN's don't match,
the URLs don't match - so with a high degree of probablity they are
NOT me. Then the spider visits my contact page. It finds another hCard
(we'll say 2). It compares the first one and the FN's and URLs don't
match. It compares the second one, and the URLs match, the FNs match -
with a high degree of certainly they are the same person and the data
can be merged.

By doing this, we introduce NO new technology or mark-up to find
authoritative data. We are using already existing microformats (XFN),
the data is visible using @rel instead of <link> it allows for the
market to compete and build better spiders.

We also have the lesser used UID to uniquely identify hCards. As we
talked about long ago, UID and URL should be the same thing, if we can
futher develop that idea then comparing and collapsing on URL/UID will
give us an even higher degree of certainty.

> The reason I'm asking is I'm more willing to plug work into this, but
> not if you've already decided that this approach will not work.

--- i think it will work just fine, but i also thing we have all the
tools needed right now.

People 'say' they want this feature, but i don't think they have
explored the possible solutions available currently. If we are going
to try to tell folks to add something like <link rel="id.hcard"..../>
why not just rel-me? that gets us several things at once and solves
this same issue for hCards as hCalendar as hResumes ...

The downside is that i would say for things like X2V or other
hCard->vCard services they should NOT spider links. This would be more
for a social network app that caches the data rather than generating
vCards on the fly.

I think this happily solves the 80/20 percent of all use-cases right
now. I'm also sure smarter people than me can take this to the next
step, implement something like this, and do an even better job of
getting quality data out.

-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 03:27:48 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan 24 03:27:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard agent
In-Reply-To: <20070124095159.GK26096@who.int>
References: <20070124095159.GK26096@who.int>
Message-ID: <21e770780701240327w4ca13fd3lb23c8760ebca1cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/24/07, Mark <mark@geekhive.net> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm pulling this question out of an earlier thread, because I think
> maybe it was buried.
>
> I'm trying to figure out a good way to label multiple phone numbers for
> a given entity (in this case a performance venue) so that the labels are
> human-useable, and of course work within the format.

you can certainly have multiple phone numbers for the same hCard,
simple have something like:

<ul>
<li class="tel">+123456</li>
<li class="tel">+123457</li>
<li class="tel">+123458</li>
</ul>

> For example, a concert hall has a number of "work" phone numbers, one
> for the box-office and one for administration.  There might be yet
> another number for a technical contact for discussing things like lights
> and sound, stagecraft, etc.

you can futher add TYPEs to each phone, but they are not that specific.

> I'm starting to think that the only way to communicate the different
> purposes for these contacts with hCard is to treat them as separate, but
> linked contacts.  My question is: is the agent attribute/property the
> right way to insert this linkage?  If so how is it best used?  Should I
> just embed one vcard in another, or should I use a URL?

you have several choices here.

1) there is a NOTES field, so you can stick several other phone numbers there.
2) you can use the include-pattern so that you can reference the
common data across multiple hCards
3) you can simply create one hCard for each division.

-brian


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 03:34:19 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan 24 03:34:23 2007
Subject: =?ISO-8859-7?Q?Re:_=C8=DD=EC=E1:_[uf-discuss]_Thoughts_?=
	=?ISO-8859-7?Q?on_extending_the_geo_microformat?=
In-Reply-To: <20070124111500.79958.qmail@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20070118235101.63203.qmail@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<20070124111500.79958.qmail@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701240334g48976fefr570fd0596500ef9f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/24/07, Dimitrios Zachariadis <telemetry_mail@yahoo.gr> wrote:
> It looks like something like:
>
> <div class="vevent">
>   <span class="summary">testing</span>
>   <abbr class='geo' title='38;24'> in Athens</abbr> on
>
>   <abbr class="dtstamp" title="-20070124">Jan 24,
> 2007</abbr>
> </div>
>
> Could that be an acceptable form, i.e. not violating
> the specs?

--- the first step is to see if you can solve the problems with
existing microformats. So far, i think we have shown that 2 different
formats can carry the information you are interested in. Now it is
just a matter of how to refine those rather than re-invent the wheel
in the GEO spec.

> I see that a dtstart property is mandatory,
> but I want to use dtstamp, since it's a better fit for
> the purpose.

The other option is to use hCard

<div class="vcard">
   <span class="fn org">testing</span>
   <abbr class='geo' title='38;24'> in Athens</abbr> on
   <abbr class="rev" title="20070124">Jan 24, 2007</abbr>
</div>

That would accomplish a similar thing, but now you are anchoring the
GEO as a PLACE not an EVENT.

> Shouldn't that be either dtstamp or dtstart? (being
> mandatory)

--- actually in iCalendar NOTHING is required, but practically,
because importing applications NEED a name to display the event and a
DTSTART to put it somewhere on the calendar, those two are required in
hCalendar. You can do something like class="dtstart dtstamp" on the
same class element. This would not change your mark-up and it would
allow for applications to plot the GEO points on a timeline or
calendar.

i hope this helps,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From jeremy at adactio.com  Wed Jan 24 03:43:45 2007
From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith)
Date: Wed Jan 24 03:43:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards)]
In-Reply-To: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <643AED4B-29CA-4488-BB97-9D2AC97933D7@adactio.com>

I'd like to bring up a real world example here.

Tantek wrote:
> I'd even advocate looking for
> the first <address> that is or contains an hCard on the page, since  
> that's
> following prescribed behavior from HTML4.

On every page of my site (http://adactio.com/), I have an hCard that  
uses the address element:

<address class="vcard">
<a href="http://adactio.com/" class="url org">Adactio</a>
is the online home of
<a href="mailto:jeremy@adactio.com" class="email fn">Jeremy Keith</a>, a
<span class="title">web developer</span>
living and working in
<span class="adr">
<span class="locality">Brighton</span>,
<span class="country-name">England</span>
</span>.
</address>

I believe this is the correct use of the address element. Whichever  
page of the site you find yourself on, the address element contains  
the contact details of the site owner: me.

On my contact page, I have a longer hCard:

<div class="vcard">
<h3>Contact Details</h3>
<a class="fn url" href="http://adactio.com/">
<span class="given-name">Jeremy</span>
<span class="family-name">Keith</span>
</a>
<div class="adr">
<span class="street-address">Flat 7, <br />57/58 Brunswick Road</ 
span><br />
<span class="locality">Hove</span>
<a class="postal-code" href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=bn3+1dh"  
title="map">BN3 1DH</a><br />
<span class="country-name">England</span>
</div>
<p><abbr title="Telephone">Tel</abbr>/<abbr title="Telefax">Fax</ 
abbr>: <a class="tel" href="callto:+44-1273-771485">+44 1273 771485</ 
a></p>
<p class="tel"><span class="type">Mobile</span>: <a class="value"  
href="callto:+44-7792-069292">+44 7792 069292</a></p>
</div>

Here, I'm not using the address element (though I could) but this  
longer hCard should probably be considered the authoritative one (or  
it should be merged with any other hCard data collected).

I *could* use rel="me" on the first hCard (the one that appears on  
every page) to point to the contact page:

<a class="url" href="http://adactio.com/contact/" rel="me">

But that feels a little uncomfortable: usually, I would point  
rel="me" to the front page of my site (and that's exactly what I have  
done with hCards in other places like http://bulletproofajax.com/ )

So although I have a single location for an authoritative hCard, none  
of my "lesser" hCards are connected to the authoritative version.

David suggested:
> - if there is no fragment in the non-canonical hCard url, a <link>  
> is required

To which, Tantek replied:
> <link> should never be required, and should be avoided.

And I tend to agree.

I have a feeling that the answer lies with rel="me".

In my case, if I were to update just the address element that appears  
on the home page with a link of rel="me" pointing to my contact page,  
then all roads would (eventually) lead to my authoritative hCard:

* Every page of adactio.com has an hCard with a "url" value pointing  
to the front page,
* All of my hCards on other sites (e.g. the Bulletproof Ajax site,  
blog comments etc.) points to the front page of adactio.com, again  
using the "url" value,
* The front page of my site points to my authoritative hCard using  
rel="me".

Brian described the behaviour of spidering tools and wrote:
> By doing this, we introduce NO new technology or mark-up to find
> authoritative data. We are using already existing microformats (XFN),
> the data is visible using @rel instead of <link> it allows for the
> market to compete and build better spiders.

I agree. And I think I'll go and update the front page of my site  
right now. :-)

But Brian also raised another point:
> The problem arrises when multiple hCards are
> encountered on a page - which is the authorative hCard?

This is the case with http://adactio.com/contact/
As well as the "global" hCard (in the address element), the page also  
contains the authoritative one.

So what I may need to do is expand the href I use in a rel="me" link  
to point not just to my contact page, but specifically to a page  
fragment:

<a class="url" href="http://adactio.com/contact/#vcard" rel="me">

As long as I uniquely identify my authoritative hCard with that  
unique identifier (id="vcard") then, at least in theory, a spider  
should be able to tell which hCard is authoritative even if more than  
one hCard is on the page.

Note that I'm not suggesting a *specific* value like "vcard" for the  
fragment identifier, just that the fragment identifier corresponds to  
the rel="me" url. So I could just as easily use:

<a class="url" href="http://adactio.com/contact/#foobar" rel="me">

...as long as I then markup my authoritative hCard within id="foobar".

Anyway...

I started this email just to throw a real-world example out there,  
but talking through it has helped me clarify what I think I need to do.

Before I finally shut up, I wanted to make sure that this link gets  
mentioned at least once in this discussion:

http://gmpg.org/xfn/and/#idconsolidation

Bye,

Jeremy

-- 
Jeremy Keith

a d a c t i o

http://adactio.com/


From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Wed Jan 24 03:50:44 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Wed Jan 24 03:50:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701240318v1608c681qbbd747f33cdae965@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701231305u4b3e6c24h2973b9a292a9e881@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701240318v1608c681qbbd747f33cdae965@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701240350g3d71fbd3h74d122e235ce5829@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/24/07, Brian Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/24/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> > Do you (Tantek + all) agree with the following "architecture", or it
> > least think it's worth pursuing further:
> >
> > (a) hCards without additional markup; "url" is used to lookup a URL
> > (b) at the URL we can either find:
> > (b.i) the authorative hCard; OR
> > (b.ii) a pointer to authorative URL with the authorative hCard
> > (c) it's easy to find the authorative hCard on the authorative URL
> >
> > I'm sure we have the technology to to (b.ii), I just don't know if
> > anyone has done it. Anyone?
>
> In a similar vein, an hCard spider could find hCards in a page with a
> URL. They could then follow that URL to the person's page. Then
> inspect for hCards. If none are found, it could simply follow all
> rel-me links. Since rel-me is published by the author of the page,
> [it is a safe asssumption?] that the subsequent requested pages are
> also controled by the author. Then hCards could be looked for on those
> pages as well. The problem arrises when multiple hCards are
> encountered on a page - which is the authorative hCard? This issue is
> not a problem with the spider, but with the mechanism to say "THIS
> hCard is the one you want" (you suggested an anchor link #vcard), but
> using some hueristics, it might be possible to match the URL of the
> ORIGINAL hCard that started this spidering, and any hCards found in
> the rel-me crawl. If the URLs match, then you could (with some degree
> of certainly) collapse the values into a more robust hCard.

Note that the '#vcard' is from Ryan's website, which I was using as my
working example. I love the rel-me bit, I'm a little less happy with
the "crawl many pages and see if we find something" (if I understand
you correctly) and I wonder if it can be improved

Let me just write out the problem again, based on a real world example

(a) Start Source Page (e.g. http://microformats.org/)

<address class="author vcard">
 <a class="url fn" href="http://theryanking.com">Ryan</a>
</address>

(b) URL Page (http://theryanking.com):

... something happens ...

Note that Ryan already has a pointer on this page to his contact page:

<a href="http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/" title="contact">contact</a></li>

(c)
Authorative URL Page (http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard):

<div class="vcard" id="vcard">
  ... authorative hCard ...
</div>

So the issue is with the "something happens" bit. Here are a few suggestions

(I) Brian's solution (I think)

- look for "rel-me"
- check each page, matching on FN and/or URL

So we would change Brian's page:
<a href="http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/" title="contact"
rel="me">contact</a></li>

This issue here is FN on the source page may be a shorthand "Ryan" but
on the canonical page it may be

(II) Explicitly mark the authorative link with a unique class

<a href="http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/" rel="me
[hcard-authorative]">contact</a>

[hcard-authorative] is a placeholder, and obviously requires inventing
something new

(III) Modified Brian solution: require explicit ID for hcard

<a href="http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard" title="contact"
rel="me">contact</a></li>

That is, the spider will only attempt to look at rel-me URIs with a
fragment. The benefit is _explicitness_ and less open-ended work for
the spider. Requiring a fragment may introduce britleness?

Regards, etc...

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 04:17:23 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 24 04:17:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end date?
In-Reply-To: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD36@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
References: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD36@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
Message-ID: <923a87360701240417ud79b6cey893dd035297ab84c@mail.gmail.com>

> I want to use vevent to markup this information.  Notice that there is
> only one date specified - May, 1998 - which is the ending date of his
> education.
>
> How do I markup a date such as "May, 1998"?  Notice that there is no
> day specified.  Do I assume it to be May 1, 1998, and mark it up as
>
> <abbr class="..." title="1998-05-01">May 1998</abbr>

I think that the idea that there's no ending date is a deceptive one.
More often than not there is a start and end date but we choose to use
a natural language abbreviation instead, like "May, 1998". In actual
fact the classes started on a particular date like "September, 1994"
and ended on "May, 1998". And if you really want to get granular, you
can put in the exact time you walked into your first class too.

I used to work for a Festival and we had this very same issue
concerning a lot of the date information. There were events that
"started at 6PM" and had no end time, and other events that were for
the "Fall/Winter" season. But if you dig deeper and ask the right
questions, you soon find out that "yeah it starts at 6PM and it goes
for 2 hours" so the ending time is 8PM, and "the Fall season starts on
such-and-such a date and goes on to such-and-such a date".

In the case where a particular time isn't given, I think it's alright
for it to simply default to midnight of those days.

Where I have a particular problem with end dates is marking up events
that go on indefinitely. What do you do then?

A.
From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Wed Jan 24 04:26:55 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Wed Jan 24 04:26:58 2007
Subject: =?iso-8859-7?q?=C8=DD=EC=E1:=20Re:=20=C8=DD=EC=E1:=20[uf-discuss]=20Thoug?=
	=?iso-8859-7?q?hts=20on=20extending=20the=20geo=20microformat?=
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701240334g48976fefr570fd0596500ef9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070124122655.49523.qmail@web27109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
> The other option is to use hCard
> 
> <div class="vcard">
>    <span class="fn org">testing</span>
>    <abbr class='geo' title='38;24'> in Athens</abbr>
> on
>    <abbr class="rev" title="20070124">Jan 24,
> 2007</abbr>
> </div>
> 
> That would accomplish a similar thing, but now you
> are anchoring the
> GEO as a PLACE not an EVENT.
>

I missed the rev property; its not an obvious time
related word. It looks like I've got two alternatives
for the time dimension now. 

There are two other values that I need to represent:
altitude and reference system (datum).
 
Brian, thank you very much for helping me with this
(and avoiding spending time on re-inventing the wheel
:-).

Dimitrios 


	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
?????????????? Yahoo!; 
?????????? ?? ?????????? ???????? (spam); ?? Yahoo! Mail 
???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????????? 
????????? http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr 

From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 04:40:21 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 24 04:40:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote Links: rel="voted-for"
In-Reply-To: <C1DBB1C0.85D47%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <923a87360701231215h70bd96b0u75d540427bd71b6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBB1C0.85D47%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <923a87360701240440o48e319i79ccfbd900026286@mail.gmail.com>

> Ara, the point is that with rel/rev in particular, it has confused *even the
> people that are supposed to be experts*.  As Ryan points out, I myself got
> it wrong when I initially proposed to Kevin Marks that we use 'rel' for
> VoteLinks instead of their initial idea of using a new HTML attribute
> 'vote'.  In fact I can say that *everyone* (without exception) I have spoken
> with who has tried to use rel/rev has made this mistake at some point,
> including a lot of the people on this list.
>
> The 'rel' / 'rev' distinction is perhaps one of *the most* confusing things
> in HTML4 (if not *the most confusing*).  It is an outlier in the extent of
> confusion caused.

Tantek/Ryan,

So how would you suggest that I mark up the link on the page that was
"voted for" that's pointing back to the voter? After all this back and
forth, I'm really curious because I have yet to receive a concrete
example.

Thanks!
A.
From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jan 24 06:31:14 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jan 24 06:31:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was:
	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 23, 2007, at 8:46 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote:

> Tantek ? elik wrote
>> None of those examples given are actually "canonical"
>> sources, they're merely citations and quotations of sources
>> (for which we have existing HTML semantics for: <cite> <q
>> cite> <blockquote cite>.  The semantic of canonicality is not
>> necessarily implied, only that the content came from
>> somewhere else, not that that somewhere else is the best /
>> most representative (i.e. canonical) instance of that content.
>
> I think we don't mean "canonical" here, and perhaps fixing that will
> clarify a use case that distinguishes the opportunity.
>
> What I think is much more useful is /authoritative/ hCards.  Meaning
> that this is the author's truth for this reference.  The authoritative
> reference is the root source of the reference.  It is close to
> definitive, but definitive assumes objectivity, whereas authoritative
> retains the subjectivity of the author.

I agree.  Only one person knows the canonical source for a given  
hCard (and even then it may change, e.g. in hCards used as OpenIDs).   
Everyone else can at best point to the best authority they know.

> Working through this leads me to think that an hCard that exists at  
> its
> self-referenced URI should be considered "authoritative."

My concern about this is that many publishers (myself included) try  
to avoid linking a page to itself due to usability concerns, e.g. "I  
just clicked on that link and didn't go anywhere.  This site is broken."

Peace,
Scott


From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 06:51:38 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 24 06:51:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was:
	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>

> My concern about this is that many publishers (myself included) try
> to avoid linking a page to itself due to usability concerns, e.g. "I
> just clicked on that link and didn't go anywhere.  This site is broken."

Just a shot in the dark here, but couldn't the <a class="url" ...> be
assumed to be pointing to the hCard owner's site where it could be
further assumed that the authoritative hCard would reside? What's
more, if the href in the <a class="url"...> contained an id for the
actual hCard in question then you'd be pointing directly to the
correct hCard (in case the page contains multiple ones, for
work/home/etc...)

An example would be: <a class="url"
href="http://mydomain.com/contact.html#myInfo"...>

In the case of the authoritative hCard itself it could simply point to
it's own id like so: href="#myInfo", though I can see what you mean
about it giving the impression that the link is broken. But it isn't
illegal code. As a matter of fact, the authoritative hCard should
probably contain a full url with id included for accessibility's sake
(otherwise if the hCard is ever exported it won't have a url, just an
id).

Just my 2 cents,
A.
From joe at andrieu.net  Wed Jan 24 07:35:00 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Wed Jan 24 07:34:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards
	(was:Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c73fcd$36b9cba0$69fa030a@andrieuhome>

Scott Reynen wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2007, at 8:46 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote:
> > Working through this leads me to think that an hCard that exists at
> > its
> > self-referenced URI should be considered "authoritative."
> 
> My concern about this is that many publishers (myself included) try  
> to avoid linking a page to itself due to usability concerns, e.g. "I  
> just clicked on that link and didn't go anywhere.  This site 
> is broken."


Scott,

That makes sense.  But if I am on the page that is hosting my hCard, how
do I indicate that this URL is the URI for the hCard?

Wouldn't you just use a <span
class="url">http://www.switchbook.com</span> instead of an <a>?

That would still get picked up by the parsers as self-referential,
wouldn't it?

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651





From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jan 24 07:53:45 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jan 24 07:54:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards
	(was:Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <006f01c73fcd$36b9cba0$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
References: <006f01c73fcd$36b9cba0$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <F20D25B5-A3AA-425E-92B1-19094EA15636@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:35 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote:

> Wouldn't you just use a <span
> class="url">http://www.switchbook.com</span> instead of an <a>?
>
> That would still get picked up by the parsers as self-referential,
> wouldn't it?

Yes it would.  I hadn't considered the possibility of using  
class="url" outside <a>.  That makes sense to me.

Peace,
Scott

From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 08:04:06 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 24 08:04:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards
	(was:Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <F20D25B5-A3AA-425E-92B1-19094EA15636@randomchaos.com>
References: <006f01c73fcd$36b9cba0$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<F20D25B5-A3AA-425E-92B1-19094EA15636@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701240804n1d9ab433q34b598a3c9c2ae93@mail.gmail.com>

> Yes it would.  I hadn't considered the possibility of using
> class="url" outside <a>.  That makes sense to me.

I think <cite class="url">http://www.site.com</cite> would work
nicely, semantically speaking. No?

A.
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 24 10:58:17 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 13:25:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] moving "latitude longitude shorthand"
	from	brainstorming to geo, hCard
In-Reply-To: <C1DBF99B.85DB1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <C1DBF99B.85DB1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <8DmV5NbJx6tFFwAA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1DBF99B.85DB1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>any general opinions or thoughts on the "latitude longitude shorthand"?

Thought will need to be given to how that is transferred to off-world
locations. This may mean requiring separate lat & long markup for such
places, or the use of type-value pairs:

        <span class="geo">
          <span class="type">Moon</span>
          <span class="value">12.345;01.987"</span>
        <\span>

otherwise an additional class, say, "coordinates":

        <span class="geo">
          <span class="body">Moon</span>
          <span class="coordiantes">12.345;01.987"</span>
        <\span>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 21-day week!

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 24 11:09:00 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 13:25:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701231305u4b3e6c24h2973b9a292a9e881@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7TXUt5bM76tFFwAA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>, David
Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> writes

>Let me ask this: is there a _single_ example out there of what we want to do?

There is an hCard (one of several) on:

        <http://www.rspb-walsall.org.uk/links.htm>

for the West Midland Bird Club, with just "fn org url". The target of
the url property:

        <http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/>

has a more complete ("canonical", if you will) hCard for the Club, with
postal contact details.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 21-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 24 11:20:01 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 13:25:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards)]
In-Reply-To: <643AED4B-29CA-4488-BB97-9D2AC97933D7@adactio.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<643AED4B-29CA-4488-BB97-9D2AC97933D7@adactio.com>
Message-ID: <qDMQZHdhF7tFFwTG@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <643AED4B-29CA-4488-BB97-9D2AC97933D7@adactio.com>, Jeremy
Keith <jeremy@adactio.com> writes

>I have a feeling that the answer lies with rel="me".

It has a certain elegance, but is rel="me" appropriate for the hCards of
organisations?

It certainly wouldn't help on pages with more than one "short" hCard,
link to a second page with the same people's full hCards, or for third
party details where the author (the "me") isn't the subject.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 21-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 24 11:25:04 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 13:25:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701240350g3d71fbd3h74d122e235ce5829@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701231305u4b3e6c24h2973b9a292a9e881@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DBC774.85D61%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<21e523c20701240236n13473179ladb30b9fe1ac69e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701240318v1608c681qbbd747f33cdae965@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701240350g3d71fbd3h74d122e235ce5829@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <STAedYeQK7tFFw1K@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e523c20701240350g3d71fbd3h74d122e235ce5829@mail.gmail.com>, David
Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> writes

><address class="author vcard">
><a class="url fn" href="http://theryanking.com">Ryan</a>
></address>


Making that:

        <address class="author vcard">
          <a class="url" href="http://theryanking.com">
            <abbr class="fn" title="Ryan King">Ryan</abbr>
          </a>
        </address>

not only resolves your 'mismatched-fn' concern, but is also more
semantically meaningful.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 21-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 24 11:25:26 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 13:25:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Expressing an event that only has an end date?
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701240417ud79b6cey893dd035297ab84c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA03660155FD36@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
	<923a87360701240417ud79b6cey893dd035297ab84c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fzddFvemK7tFFw2w@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <923a87360701240417ud79b6cey893dd035297ab84c@mail.gmail.com>,
Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> writes

>In the case where a particular time isn't given, I think it's alright
>for it to simply default to midnight of those days.

or to 23:59:59!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 21-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 24 11:36:00 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 13:25:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards
	(was:	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
References: <C1DBEF4C.85D99%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <jccienggU7tFFwzt@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>, Joe Andrieu
<joe@andrieu.net> writes

>A few two major things happen when you do this:
>1. You enable an hCard author to semantically declare this hCard as
>"definitive"
>2. You could provide a link from a refering hCard to the authoritative
>hCard for discovery of additional information that isn't appropriate
>for the design or context of the "refering" hCard.

Of course, it could be argued that the latter constitutes invisible
meta-data...


If example.com/Fred has:

        <span class="vcard">
          <span class="fn">Fred<\span>
          <img class="logo">Fred-avatar.png</img>
        </span>

then compare, on another site:

        <span class="vcard">
          <a class="fn url" href="http://example.com/Fred">Fred<\a>
        </span>

with:

        <a class="pavatar"
        href="http://example.com/Fred-avatar.png">Fred's avatr<\a>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 21-day week!
From chris at placenamehere.com  Wed Jan 24 14:26:38 2007
From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
Date: Wed Jan 24 14:26:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701231022h59568dbbr431aef5398017ddc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20701231022h59568dbbr431aef5398017ddc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <712C9B6D-8DD2-4CC8-940C-7A1EB169C902@placenamehere.com>


On Jan 23, 2007, at 1:22 PM, David Janes wrote:

> Continuing the tradition of riffing off other threads to talk about
> what's on my mind...
>
> On 1/23/07, Ryan King <ryan@technorati.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's not a full CSS selector based search engine, but http://
>> kitchen.technorati.com/contacts/search/tantek.
>>
>
> Wouldn't it be great if there was a well defined way of getting from
> _an_ instance of a hCard to the _best_ (or canonical) hCard for that
> person.
>
> Just saying; I know that some work has been done on this.
>
> Regards, etc...


Not to double back on a few days worth of replies, but while I  
understand the desire to eliminate noise from search results [or  
elevate more complete results] I'm not sure how I feel about two things:

(a) that this isn't an issue simply to be solved by consuming  
applications. E.g. "search for detailed contact data" "return only  
results with email address" "match on Name 'Chris' and url contains  
'placenamehere.com', or some non-hcard solutions be them XFN,  
claimID, other avenues for tying these bits together.

(b) I think with any solution we need to be careful on the definition  
and reliance on these flags, and more generally the notion that  
there /is/ a best out there for any given individual. Just one case  
would be a person who might have their contact info on a business  
context, a context related to their position in a different  
organization, and then yet another in a more personal context [blog,  
resume on monster.com, etc]. While all are probably more informative  
then a simple fn-only card from a reply on a random blog post on the  
net, what is 'best' is based on context and the data will most likely  
not be consolidated into one place.


P.S. the technorati search is currently giving me no results for any  
contact searches I try, I'll follow up with the proper parties offlist.

-- 
[ Chris Casciano ]
[ chris@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 24 14:46:58 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 16:06:16 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)
In-Reply-To: <712C9B6D-8DD2-4CC8-940C-7A1EB169C902@placenamehere.com>
References: <21e523c20701231022h59568dbbr431aef5398017ddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<712C9B6D-8DD2-4CC8-940C-7A1EB169C902@placenamehere.com>
Message-ID: <H6cLX7viH+tFFwFR@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <712C9B6D-8DD2-4CC8-940C-7A1EB169C902@placenamehere.com>,
Chris Casciano <chris@placenamehere.com> writes

>(b) I think with any solution we need to be careful on the definition
>and reliance on these flags, and more generally the notion that  there
>/is/ a best out there for any given individual.

Perhaps what ought to be marked up is the "parent" hCard of known
"child" hCards?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 21-day week!
From john at westciv.com  Wed Jan 24 18:13:37 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Wed Jan 24 18:15:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards)]
In-Reply-To: <643AED4B-29CA-4488-BB97-9D2AC97933D7@adactio.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<643AED4B-29CA-4488-BB97-9D2AC97933D7@adactio.com>
Message-ID: <CBA32510-27CE-47D4-8C6B-4F838F96A2FD@westciv.com>

Jeremy Keith wrote in relation to denoting an "authoritative" hCard  
from another

> I have a feeling that the answer lies with rel="me".

Might I suggest, reusing how permalinks work in hAtom and hReview  
(particularly hReview)?

rel=bookmark is defined in the HTML 4 spec as
"Refers to a bookmark. A bookmark is a link to a key entry point  
within an extended document" [1]

Nothing there suggests that the bookmark is in any way authoritative,  
but an authoritative hCard would fall under "a key entry point within  
an extended document". So, we are half way there.

Then, if we look at, hReview we find there is already a similar  
solution. An hReview may point to its "permalink" (surely the  
authoritative version? Ryan your thoughts on the analogy?) using  
rel="bookmark self". The self part is required along with bookmark to  
"indicate that the hyperlink is a permalink for the review itself" [2]

So, suggestion is use

rel="bookmark self" to denote that the resource pointed to by the  
link (<a href) is the authoriatative version of the hCard (and indeed  
this might be a generalizable pattern? - the authoritative version of  
a microformat may be indicated by the use of a link to that  
microformat, with a rel value which includes "self" and "bookmark")

Thoughts?

Thanks

john

1.http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#type-links
2.http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Field_details

John Allsopp

--
style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com
Web Directions North, Vancouver Feb 6-10 :: http:// 
north.webdirections.org


From aconbere at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 19:30:20 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Wed Jan 24 19:30:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>

All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and just
plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This data is
typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence, the
language type and version and various other bits of meta data.  This
seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.

First as a way to standardize this collection of metadata which might
help decrease the confusion over licensing and various other issues
that plague online code examples.

Second because this is data that in and of itself does nothing on the
web.  It has to be downloaded, and run in various other applications
to have any use.  Standardizing the format would allow for easy
download, collection and use of this data.

I wrote a little proposal regarding what I see as being a possible
schema etc. at http://anders.conbere.org/posts/code-microformat/

I don't have any real experience doing this kind of stuff so I welcome
comments, suggestions of criticism.  Really I just want to attempt to
get discussion started.

Thanks,
Anders
From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 24 23:43:35 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 24 23:43:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F223B135-E236-4781-93D0-9785E85ACD98@lava.net>

On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:30 PM, anders conbere wrote:

> All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and just
> plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This data is
> typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence, the
> language type and version and various other bits of meta data.  This
> seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.
>
> First as a way to standardize this collection of metadata which might
> help decrease the confusion over licensing and various other issues
> that plague online code examples.
>
> Second because this is data that in and of itself does nothing on the
> web.  It has to be downloaded, and run in various other applications
> to have any use.  Standardizing the format would allow for easy
> download, collection and use of this data.
>
> I wrote a little proposal regarding what I see as being a possible
> schema etc. at http://anders.conbere.org/posts/code-microformat/

The first step is not to write a schema but to create a wiki page  
documenting existing examples of pages. Microformats is about paving  
the cow paths, so one of the major inputs in our design process is  
seeing what's already out there.

I would recommend looking at various pastebin websites and some  
programming oriented blogs. Something else you might want to also  
consider looking at is lxr (there's an install for mozilla at  
lxr.mozilla.org).

> I don't have any real experience doing this kind of stuff so I welcome
> comments, suggestions of criticism.  Really I just want to attempt to
> get discussion started.

The best way to do that is to create the brainstorming pages and do  
the leg work there. Once you have numerous examples, the process of  
figuring out what's common and what's not can begin. Finding examples  
in the wild is the most important step!

Hope that helps,
-Colin
From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Jan 25 04:33:28 2007
From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell)
Date: Thu Jan 25 04:33:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>

Hi,

My head is spinning from reading too much of the website at once so forgive me if I've missed the obvious.

The "Microformats in REST Web Services" page appears to concern the use of microformats to describe a web service.

Has it been considered whether microformats could also be used with forms to allow a user to enter structured data automatically?

e.g. this site needs my address details but luckily my browser has spotted their form will accept my hcard.

Chris

BTW I hate filling in forms :-)

From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 05:13:04 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 25 05:13:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
Message-ID: <923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>

> e.g. this site needs my address details but luckily my browser has spotted their form will accept my hcard.

Hi Chris, that's an interesting application idea but I think the idea
behind a microformat is to describe content in the HTML document in a
standardized format (based on common usage elsewhere such as vCard)
rather than store it externally (for use by the browser to populate a
form).

A.
From xwolf at xwolf.de  Thu Jan 25 05:35:13 2007
From: xwolf at xwolf.de (Wolfgang Wiese)
Date: Thu Jan 25 05:37:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
	<923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45B8B211.9030104@xwolf.de>

Hi
> Hi Chris, that's an interesting application idea but I think the idea
> behind a microformat is to describe content in the HTML document in a
> standardized format (based on common usage elsewhere such as vCard)
> rather than store it externally (for use by the browser to populate a
> form).

I dont think this is the point, Chris wanted to focus on.
If there would be a standarized format how to descripe form elements
it would help developers of extentions, plugins and useragents to
automatically prefill it. (Instead of just guessing if its possibly a
login-field).

There are two examples, which come in my mind:

a) to solve the problems, several screenreaders get by
   "displaying" form fields. E.g. yaws form-mode.
b) to add site search engines to the browsers search bar without
   the need of javascript or an index like http://mycroft.mozdev.org/


Regards,
  Wolfgang
From telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr  Thu Jan 25 05:41:43 2007
From: telemetry_mail at yahoo.gr (Dimitrios Zachariadis)
Date: Thu Jan 25 05:41:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] moving "latitude longitude shorthand" from
	brainstorming to geo, hCard
In-Reply-To: <8DmV5NbJx6tFFwAA@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20070125134143.45203.qmail@web27107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


--- Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <C1DBF99B.85DB1%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
> <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes
> 
> >any general opinions or thoughts on the "latitude longitude shorthand"?
> 
> Thought will need to be given to how that is transferred to off-world
> locations. This may mean requiring separate lat & long markup for such
> places, or the use of type-value pairs:
> 
>         <span class="geo">
>           <span class="type">Moon</span>
>           <span class="value">12.345;01.987"</span>
>         <\span>
> 
> otherwise an additional class, say, "coordinates":
> 
>         <span class="geo">
>           <span class="body">Moon</span>
>           <span class="coordiantes">12.345;01.987"</span>
>         <\span>
> 

It might be better to introduce a "reference-system" property that could be
meaningful for both terrestrial and extra-terrestrial places, for which such
reference systems exist. 

That would enable coordinate representation in other projection systems (like
UTM) too.

Dimitrios


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling? 
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
From nferrier at tapsellferrier.co.uk  Thu Jan 25 05:52:14 2007
From: nferrier at tapsellferrier.co.uk (Nic James Ferrier)
Date: Thu Jan 25 05:53:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>
	(Ara Pehlivanian's message of "Thu\,
	25 Jan 2007 08\:13\:04 -0500")
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
	<923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87wt3bz01d.fsf@tapsellferrier.co.uk>

"Ara Pehlivanian" <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> writes:

>> e.g. this site needs my address details but luckily my browser has spotted their form will accept my hcard.
>
> Hi Chris, that's an interesting application idea but I think the idea
> behind a microformat is to describe content in the HTML document in a
> standardized format (based on common usage elsewhere such as vCard)
> rather than store it externally (for use by the browser to populate a
> form).

Surely there is scope for tying form parameters to microformat
descriptions?

If I want to recieve an address I might put input parameters for:

   street
   address
   town
   postcode

but if the form was marked to recieve an hcard then it could be
automatically populated by the browser (or greasemonkey, or whatever).


-- 
Nic Ferrier
http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk   for all your tapsell ferrier needs
From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Jan 25 06:02:01 2007
From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell)
Date: Thu Jan 25 06:02:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125135848.02906998@pop3>

At 13:35 25/01/2007, you wrote:
>> Hi Chris, that's an interesting application idea but I think the idea
>> behind a microformat is to describe content in the HTML document in a
>> standardized format (based on common usage elsewhere such as vCard)
>> rather than store it externally (for use by the browser to populate a
>> form).

> I don't think this is the point, Chris wanted to focus on.
> If there would be a standarized format how to describe form elements
> it would help developers of extentions, plugins and useragents to
> automatically prefill it. (Instead of just guessing if its possibly a
> login-field).

Right - so as well as being able to use microformats to signal "this block of HTML is an hCard" it might be possible to signal "this HTML form will accept an hCard".

I hate to think how many times I've had to enter my details into various ecommerce sites!

Chris

From nferrier at tapsellferrier.co.uk  Thu Jan 25 06:21:28 2007
From: nferrier at tapsellferrier.co.uk (Nic James Ferrier)
Date: Thu Jan 25 06:23:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125135848.02906998@pop3> (Chris Newell's message
	of "Thu\, 25 Jan 2007 14\:02\:01 +0000")
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125135848.02906998@pop3>
Message-ID: <87r6tjyyon.fsf@tapsellferrier.co.uk>

Chris Newell <chris.newell@rd.bbc.co.uk> writes:

> At 13:35 25/01/2007, you wrote:
>>> Hi Chris, that's an interesting application idea but I think the idea
>>> behind a microformat is to describe content in the HTML document in a
>>> standardized format (based on common usage elsewhere such as vCard)
>>> rather than store it externally (for use by the browser to populate a
>>> form).
>
>> I don't think this is the point, Chris wanted to focus on.
>> If there would be a standarized format how to describe form elements
>> it would help developers of extentions, plugins and useragents to
>> automatically prefill it. (Instead of just guessing if its possibly a
>> login-field).
>
> Right - so as well as being able to use microformats to signal "this
> block of HTML is an hCard" it might be possible to signal "this HTML
> form will accept an hCard".
>
> I hate to think how many times I've had to enter my details into
> various ecommerce sites!

Partly this is an id thing. openid (http://openid.net) hope to sort
some of these problems out.

-- 
Nic Ferrier
http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk   for all your tapsell ferrier needs
From scott at randomchaos.com  Thu Jan 25 06:27:44 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Thu Jan 25 06:27:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125135848.02906998@pop3>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125135848.02906998@pop3>
Message-ID: <97E6C669-3A8D-4288-AC97-6BEC42DB78AB@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 25, 2007, at 8:02 AM, Chris Newell wrote:

> At 13:35 25/01/2007, you wrote:
>>> Hi Chris, that's an interesting application idea but I think the  
>>> idea
>>> behind a microformat is to describe content in the HTML document  
>>> in a
>>> standardized format (based on common usage elsewhere such as vCard)
>>> rather than store it externally (for use by the browser to  
>>> populate a
>>> form).
>
>> I don't think this is the point, Chris wanted to focus on.
>> If there would be a standarized format how to describe form elements
>> it would help developers of extentions, plugins and useragents to
>> automatically prefill it. (Instead of just guessing if its possibly a
>> login-field).
>
> Right - so as well as being able to use microformats to signal  
> "this block of HTML is an hCard" it might be possible to signal  
> "this HTML form will accept an hCard".

This has been discussed previously:

On Sep 28, 2006, at 5:58 AM, Ben Ward wrote:

> Lets say you have a personal registration form in your web app, for  
> entering contact data which will later be output as an hCard in  
> various places.
>
> What if I was to mark up the form (and fields) with hCard classes?  
> Good idea? Bad idea? I strikes me that it could be useful for auto- 
> complete applications, but not sure if it would ?pollute? the web  
> with effectively a useless/empty hCard when the form is published.

<http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- 
September/005951.html>

I don't see any clear conclusion in that thread, but it was a lengthy  
discussion that we'd save ourselves some time by reviewing before we  
repeat ourselves.

Peace,
Scott


From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 07:04:49 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 25 07:04:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <45B8B211.9030104@xwolf.de>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
	<923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B8B211.9030104@xwolf.de>
Message-ID: <923a87360701250704x57f73b43ub1e0bc864997702d@mail.gmail.com>

> I dont think this is the point, Chris wanted to focus on.
> If there would be a standarized format how to descripe form elements
> it would help developers of extentions, plugins and useragents to
> automatically prefill it. (Instead of just guessing if its possibly a
> login-field).
>
> There are two examples, which come in my mind:
>
> a) to solve the problems, several screenreaders get by
>    "displaying" form fields. E.g. yaws form-mode.
> b) to add site search engines to the browsers search bar without
>    the need of javascript or an index like http://mycroft.mozdev.org/

Wolfgang, I see your point. I misunderstood because of the whole
"receiving an hCard" part. I'm still not certain as to how that part
applies, but I see what you/he means in regards to standardized form
fields. That does make a lot of sense.

Cheers,
A.
From andy at whymicroformats.com  Thu Jan 25 07:15:24 2007
From: andy at whymicroformats.com (andy@whymicroformats.com)
Date: Thu Jan 25 07:16:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] A Hello! (And a new extension...)
Message-ID: <20070125101524.sha8m1er3npc44s8@66.29.76.110>

Hi,

I'm a little late to the game, having not picked up on the specifics  
of Microformats until the dConstruct '06 talk. Since then we (a small  
group) have been toying with the possibility of a new browser  
extension; and have recently made it a reality. We are a little guilty  
of just getting our heads down & working, when maybe we should have  
been participating a little here...

A tiny handful of people have seen the alpha version - and we're  
presently desperately trying to fix the major issues. We'd really like  
the community's feedback next; and I will make the beta-ready version  
available within the week (you can have the alpha if you _really_ want  
- but I do not recommend it! - just email me).

The tentative website for the extension, WebCards, is  
http://webcards.whymicroformats.com (under a few articles I wrote -  
and would also appreciate any critique of - at  
http://www.whymicroformats.com).
As a very brief overview, it enables inline usage of Microformats  
(click on it in a page to get more functionality) and to create them  
for rapid deployment into blogs, forums, comments, etc.

Yours,
Andy

PS I've just got word that Sam Sethi, who was one of the few alpha  
testers, has just posted an article with WebCards in it, at  
http://www.vecosys.com/2007/01/25/if-the-question-is-why-microformats-then-the-answer-is-webcards/

From chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Jan 25 07:30:24 2007
From: chris.newell at rd.bbc.co.uk (Chris Newell)
Date: Thu Jan 25 07:30:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <97E6C669-3A8D-4288-AC97-6BEC42DB78AB@randomchaos.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125135848.02906998@pop3>
	<97E6C669-3A8D-4288-AC97-6BEC42DB78AB@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125151542.0289a2a0@pop3>

At 14:27 25/01/2007, Scott wrote:
>On Sep 28, 2006, at 5:58 AM, Ben Ward wrote:
>>What if I was to mark up the form (and fields) with hCard classes?  
>>Good idea? Bad idea? I strikes me that it could be useful for auto- complete applications, but not sure if it would ‘pollute’ the web  
>>with effectively a useless/empty hCard when the form is published.
>
><http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- September/005951.html>
>
>I don't see any clear conclusion in that thread, but it was a lengthy  
>discussion that we'd save ourselves some time by reviewing before we  
>repeat ourselves.

Thanks Scott - sorry I didn't spot this earlier. I think it would be worth re-opening this issue since there was no conclusion.

What appears to be missing from the original discussion was input from implementers e.g. how would an existing client implementation react to an empty HTML form marked-up with microformat classes? What are the constraints on taking this concept further?

Are there any implementers out there who could comment?

Chris

From aconbere at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 07:33:59 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Thu Jan 25 07:34:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <F223B135-E236-4781-93D0-9785E85ACD98@lava.net>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
	<F223B135-E236-4781-93D0-9785E85ACD98@lava.net>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701250733w6c0cce87x1364527fb4982841@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/24/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:30 PM, anders conbere wrote:
>
> > All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and just
> > plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This data is
> > typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence, the
> > language type and version and various other bits of meta data.  This
> > seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.
> >
> > First as a way to standardize this collection of metadata which might
> > help decrease the confusion over licensing and various other issues
> > that plague online code examples.
> >
> > Second because this is data that in and of itself does nothing on the
> > web.  It has to be downloaded, and run in various other applications
> > to have any use.  Standardizing the format would allow for easy
> > download, collection and use of this data.
> >
> > I wrote a little proposal regarding what I see as being a possible
> > schema etc. at http://anders.conbere.org/posts/code-microformat/
>
> The first step is not to write a schema but to create a wiki page
> documenting existing examples of pages. Microformats is about paving
> the cow paths, so one of the major inputs in our design process is
> seeing what's already out there.

Right, if you look at that link, I just picked a few largish sites
that already include chunks of metadata in the document with inline
code.  What I didn't want to do was post a 4 page document to the
mailing list detailing everything I've been looking at.  But rather
keep things short here, and offer people who were interested somewhere
to look at what I was proposing.
>
> I would recommend looking at various pastebin websites and some
> programming oriented blogs. Something else you might want to also
> consider looking at is lxr (there's an install for mozilla at
> lxr.mozilla.org).

Similarly Track with projects like Django or Ruby On Rails, as well as
sites like W3schools.
>
> > I don't have any real experience doing this kind of stuff so I welcome
> > comments, suggestions of criticism.  Really I just want to attempt to
> > get discussion started.
>
> The best way to do that is to create the brainstorming pages and do
> the leg work there. Once you have numerous examples, the process of
> figuring out what's common and what's not can begin. Finding examples
> in the wild is the most important step!

Yup! The wiki says to start here though, I didn't want to go around
making wiki pages without following the instructions.  If people think
it's alright I would love to move what I already have to the wiki and
start looking for distinct examples of how this sort of things is
already being applied.
>
> Hope that helps,
> -Colin
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From tom.heath at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 08:16:39 2007
From: tom.heath at gmail.com (Tom Heath)
Date: Thu Jan 25 08:17:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats-related Workshop and Scripting Challenge
	(includes Video iPod prize)
Message-ID: <fce623cd0701250816g756de7d7m63988898c0b44350@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

As microformats continue to generate interest outside the core
community, members of this list may be interested in the following
Workshop and Scripting Challenge on "Scripting for the Semantic Web".
The call for papers explicitly mentions microformats and GRDDL among
the topics of interest.
<http://www.semanticscripting.org/SFSW2007/>

For those people more interested in writing code than academic papers
there's also a Scripting Challenge, that will award a prize of a iPod
Video or 200euros cash.
<http://www.semanticscripting.org/SFSW2007/challenge>

Would be nice to see some submissions from the microformats community,

Cheers :)

Tom.
(co-organiser, 3rd Workshop on Scripting for the Semantic Web)
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 09:00:42 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 25 09:00:51 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats-related Workshop and Scripting
	Challenge (includes Video iPod prize)
In-Reply-To: <fce623cd0701250816g756de7d7m63988898c0b44350@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fce623cd0701250816g756de7d7m63988898c0b44350@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701250900p712c54e7p69baa8327c51e97d@mail.gmail.com>

> Would be nice to see some submissions from the microformats community,

Would be nice if the technorati Microformats Search had an API (if it
does I can't find it).

A.
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 09:02:53 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Thu Jan 25 09:02:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats-related Workshop and Scripting
	Challenge (includes Video iPod prize)
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701250900p712c54e7p69baa8327c51e97d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fce623cd0701250816g756de7d7m63988898c0b44350@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701250900p712c54e7p69baa8327c51e97d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701250902u69b4d861yc459e018392c9a83@mail.gmail.com>

> > Would be nice to see some submissions from the microformats community,
>
> Would be nice if the technorati Microformats Search had an API (if it
> does I can't find it).

Euh, I just noticed that I started my remark with the same words as
the quote. This wasn't meant to be facetious or disrespectful. Just
happened that way. :-/

A.
From kilian at kilianvalkhof.com  Thu Jan 25 10:00:59 2007
From: kilian at kilianvalkhof.com (Kilian Valkhof)
Date: Thu Jan 25 10:00:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
Message-ID: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>

Dear Microformat-discuss readers,

First, forgive me if I'm screwing this up, I know absolutely nothing 
about mailing lists.

Secondly, I joined because of XPN, an ?XHTML Professionals Network? 
microformat. I thought this up at the end of December, and tried to 
contact Eric, Tantek and Matt through e-mail to get their opinions. I 
haven't had a reply yet, but I saw a little blurp about it on the 
microformats homepage today. (Seemingly from a couple of days earlier 
then I blogged about it, funny how these things work.)

My original ideas can be read here:
http://kilianvalkhof.com/2006/web/rel-for-practical-use/

I imagined the XPN as a way to define client/developer (rel="client", 
rel="developer") relationships, and built from there. For example, add 
freelancer to it (rel="developer freelancer") or define what part you 
did on the website (rel="client sliced", rel="client design")

An XPN could be expanded to other business sectors as well, but it seems 
smart to start with the web development one.

The direct use for it would be to open the way to a sitemadeby: search, 
next to the defining relationships part.

I don't know if an XPN should be part of XFN or next to it. I would say 
next to it, because it's a different thing. But you could also argue 
that it's a continuation of XFN and as such, should be part of it.

Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself here, what are your opinions about 
such a microformat?

Cheers,
Kilian Valkhof
From aconbere at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 10:41:33 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Thu Jan 25 10:41:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701250733w6c0cce87x1364527fb4982841@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
	<F223B135-E236-4781-93D0-9785E85ACD98@lava.net>
	<8ca3fbe80701250733w6c0cce87x1364527fb4982841@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701251041s8986ef5xe33e8b6813ec6193@mail.gmail.com>

I've added a page to the wiki to catalog examples of source code being
published online and the ways they do that.

http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples

I suppose I'll be filling that in over the next couple of days.

~ Anders

On 1/25/07, anders conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/24/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> > On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:30 PM, anders conbere wrote:
> >
> > > All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and just
> > > plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This data is
> > > typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence, the
> > > language type and version and various other bits of meta data.  This
> > > seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.
> > >
> > > First as a way to standardize this collection of metadata which might
> > > help decrease the confusion over licensing and various other issues
> > > that plague online code examples.
> > >
> > > Second because this is data that in and of itself does nothing on the
> > > web.  It has to be downloaded, and run in various other applications
> > > to have any use.  Standardizing the format would allow for easy
> > > download, collection and use of this data.
> > >
> > > I wrote a little proposal regarding what I see as being a possible
> > > schema etc. at http://anders.conbere.org/posts/code-microformat/
> >
> > The first step is not to write a schema but to create a wiki page
> > documenting existing examples of pages. Microformats is about paving
> > the cow paths, so one of the major inputs in our design process is
> > seeing what's already out there.
>
> Right, if you look at that link, I just picked a few largish sites
> that already include chunks of metadata in the document with inline
> code.  What I didn't want to do was post a 4 page document to the
> mailing list detailing everything I've been looking at.  But rather
> keep things short here, and offer people who were interested somewhere
> to look at what I was proposing.
> >
> > I would recommend looking at various pastebin websites and some
> > programming oriented blogs. Something else you might want to also
> > consider looking at is lxr (there's an install for mozilla at
> > lxr.mozilla.org).
>
> Similarly Track with projects like Django or Ruby On Rails, as well as
> sites like W3schools.
> >
> > > I don't have any real experience doing this kind of stuff so I welcome
> > > comments, suggestions of criticism.  Really I just want to attempt to
> > > get discussion started.
> >
> > The best way to do that is to create the brainstorming pages and do
> > the leg work there. Once you have numerous examples, the process of
> > figuring out what's common and what's not can begin. Finding examples
> > in the wild is the most important step!
>
> Yup! The wiki says to start here though, I didn't want to go around
> making wiki pages without following the instructions.  If people think
> it's alright I would love to move what I already have to the wiki and
> start looking for distinct examples of how this sort of things is
> already being applied.
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> > -Colin
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
From svenfuchs at artweb-design.de  Thu Jan 25 11:32:51 2007
From: svenfuchs at artweb-design.de (Sven Fuchs)
Date: Thu Jan 25 11:35:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701251041s8986ef5xe33e8b6813ec6193@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
	<F223B135-E236-4781-93D0-9785E85ACD98@lava.net>
	<8ca3fbe80701250733w6c0cce87x1364527fb4982841@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701251041s8986ef5xe33e8b6813ec6193@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46E9D0EC-8672-4E04-9E2A-F5A7D61C5005@artweb-design.de>

Am 25.01.2007 um 19:41 schrieb anders conbere:
> I've added a page to the wiki to catalog examples of source code being
> published online and the ways they do that.
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples

CodeHighlighter is an example of a syntax highlighter written in  
unobtrusive Javascript that designates the programming language  
through the class attribute of a code tag:

<pre><code class="ruby">
# ruby code
</code></pre>

Blogarticle about CodeHighlighter:
http://www.danwebb.net/2006/9/3/low-pro-unobtrusive-scripting-for- 
prototype

Examples for markup (for CSS, HTML, Ruby code):
http://svn.danwebb.net/external/CodeHighlighter/trunk/index.html

Am I supposed to add this to the wiki myself?

-- 
Sven
From jonathan.williams at nyu.edu  Thu Jan 25 11:53:49 2007
From: jonathan.williams at nyu.edu (Jonathan C Williams)
Date: Thu Jan 25 11:54:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701250704x57f73b43ub1e0bc864997702d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
	<923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B8B211.9030104@xwolf.de>
	<923a87360701250704x57f73b43ub1e0bc864997702d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F0EBE3A1-FB24-4E08-9909-7FE507AE1D6C@nyu.edu>

On Jan 25, 2007, at 10:04 AM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> Wolfgang, I see your point. I misunderstood because of the whole
> "receiving an hCard" part. I'm still not certain as to how that part
> applies, but I see what you/he means in regards to standardized form
> fields. That does make a lot of sense.

The Live Clipboard (http://www.liveclipboard.org/) stuff seems to be  
a step in the direction of letting forms consume microformats. I  
haven't looked at it recently.

--
Jonathan Williams
NYU Steinhardt
jonathan.williams@nyu.edu
+1 212 998 5308


From jonathan.williams at nyu.edu  Thu Jan 25 11:50:30 2007
From: jonathan.williams at nyu.edu (Jonathan C Williams)
Date: Thu Jan 25 11:55:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF9A497-E8CC-43F3-B604-688654992D55@nyu.edu>

On Jan 24, 2007, at 10:30 PM, anders conbere wrote:

> All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and just
> plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This data is
> typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence, the
> language type and version and various other bits of meta data.  This
> seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.

It seems like this would be an interesting place to suggest an  
(optional) extension of this proposal to create a standard for class  
based syntax highlighting. It may too ambitious but marking up stuff  
inside <code> with class names corresponding to what is is (variable,  
function, array indirection, operator, etc) could lead the way  
towards making things that could, for example, find all `php` code  
with calls to the `function` named `ldap_connect`.

Also, we should keep in mind that <code> isn't always procedural  
programming code can be examples of CSS, XML, HTML, YAML, TeX, etc.  
Would we want to consider methods of categorizing code in a rich  
taxonomy -- distinguishing between `markup`, `functional`  
`procedural`, `object-oriented` <code> above the level of language?  
I'm guessing this approach is not a good idea.

--
Jonathan Williams
NYU Steinhardt
jonathan.williams@nyu.edu
+1 212 998 5308
From aconbere at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 11:58:11 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Thu Jan 25 11:58:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <46E9D0EC-8672-4E04-9E2A-F5A7D61C5005@artweb-design.de>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
	<F223B135-E236-4781-93D0-9785E85ACD98@lava.net>
	<8ca3fbe80701250733w6c0cce87x1364527fb4982841@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701251041s8986ef5xe33e8b6813ec6193@mail.gmail.com>
	<46E9D0EC-8672-4E04-9E2A-F5A7D61C5005@artweb-design.de>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701251158he402c7co4705d22fd7dcd4f8@mail.gmail.com>

You certainly know more about it than I do, though I have no qualms
adding it to the wiki.  It certainly would solve a bunch of the issues
regarding the added markup for syntax highlighting.

As for where that should go... it seems to me like it could be sited
as an example of existing solutions, in that it attempts to maintain
the semantic html structure of the code block without muddling it with
styling.  It might also be a good thing to file under discussion.

~ Anders

On 1/25/07, Sven Fuchs <svenfuchs@artweb-design.de> wrote:
> Am 25.01.2007 um 19:41 schrieb anders conbere:
> > I've added a page to the wiki to catalog examples of source code being
> > published online and the ways they do that.
> >
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples
>
> CodeHighlighter is an example of a syntax highlighter written in
> unobtrusive Javascript that designates the programming language
> through the class attribute of a code tag:
>
> <pre><code class="ruby">
> # ruby code
> </code></pre>
>
> Blogarticle about CodeHighlighter:
> http://www.danwebb.net/2006/9/3/low-pro-unobtrusive-scripting-for-
> prototype
>
> Examples for markup (for CSS, HTML, Ruby code):
> http://svn.danwebb.net/external/CodeHighlighter/trunk/index.html
>
> Am I supposed to add this to the wiki myself?
>
> --
> Sven
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 25 12:14:03 2007
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Thu Jan 25 12:14:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
Message-ID: <509091.40882.qm@web30813.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On 1/25/2007, Anders said:
>I've added a page to the wiki to catalog examples of source code being
>published online and the ways they do that.
>
>http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples
>
>I suppose I'll be filling that in over the next couple of days.
>
>~ Anders
>

snip

>> > > All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and
>just
>> > > plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This
>data is
>> > > typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence,
>the
>> > > language type and version and various other bits of meta data. 
>This
>> > > seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.


At first blush it looks like this would fit in and existing proposal, something like hReview. It seems to have enough fields to cover it  (though this might abuse the intent of hReview; i.e. we aren't reviewing a piece of code, but distributing it). 

You may also want to take a look at the hProduct discussion (http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-proposal).

As is evidenced by your blog post and the wiki page, it looks like about the only thing not covered by an existing microformat is the code itself, but I think that it could work in hProduct's description field.

~Tim






 
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From stephen at skynet.ie  Thu Jan 25 13:01:51 2007
From: stephen at skynet.ie (stephen mulcahy)
Date: Thu Jan 25 13:01:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Some (newbie) questions on microformats
Message-ID: <45B91ABF.7090207@skynet.ie>

Hi,

I'm coming across an increasing number of references to microformats and
already do some work in the area of the Semantic Web so I'm trying to
see the big picture of how it all fits together.

I've read a few introductory articles and faqs but still have some
questions about how microformats fit together and work. When I first
came across microformats I had the (mistaken) impression that they were
a way for anyone to arbitrarily mark-up their data. After some more
reading and a little contempltation I come to the (obvious)
understanding that that couldn't really work - I mean, what good is a
formatting your data in a format that only you can understand (I guess
it might make some sense for large organisations but apart from that ...)?

So my current understanding of microformats is that they are a new
approach to adding meaning to the web by (lightly) tagging existing
content (in XHTML) to add a semantic dimension to documents. The barrier
to entry is pretty low because in a little of cases you can tag your
existing content by simply adding some class attributes to your
document, right? This contrasts with the semantic web where you need to
take your data in its existing formats and create RDF from it.

In terms of standards - is
http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page#Specifications a definitive list
of the microformats in use? If someone wants to introduce a new one is
the approach described in -
http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_When_should_I_use_a_microformat.3F_What_are_they_for.3F.22
the best way to approach things?

I have a problem in mind but I'm not clear on whether microformats is
the answer or not - but I guess its what initially prompted the search
that brought me to microformats and it fits the notion in
http://microformats.org/wiki/process of their having to be a "problem"
to be solved. The problem in this case seems to me, to lend itself to a
microformat. As a sysadmin for a small IT company, I regularly have to
buy new equipment. Let's take laptops as a example.

Typically, I come up with a set of criteria for the laptop I want e.g.
(the following are some example criteria, not to be taken too seriously)

1. Must be a HP or an IBM
2. Must have a minimum of 512MB of RAM
3. Must have a Core Duo 2 processor.
4. Must have a minimum of 40GB of hard-drive
5. Must have a wifi card that supports 802.11a, 802.11b and 802.11g.
6. Must have a dedicated (not embedded graphics card).
7. Does it support Linux?

So I take this info and I surf to the various manufacturers websites and
  try to narrow their list of models down to the list that meets my
criteria (maybe ordered by price).

I guess in most cases this info is already on manufacturers websites,
but its certainly not amenable to scraping and parsing semantically (and
maybe its not in the interests of the manfacturers to provide the
information in a format that lets me easily compare them to other
manufacturers) but it strikes me that if they did .. it would be really,
really easy for me to go to all the major manufacturers websites, suck
them their microformatted data and then analyse it off line - I see
something like an openoffice datapilot table (microsoft excel pivot
table) where I can click various filters to match my criteria above and
sort the output according to something like price and voila, my choices
are obvious - is there a microformat that lends itself to this sort of
thing already.

Is this the kind of scenario that microformats could meet or am I way
off of the mark? I guess even if manufacturers didn't want to
participate in this, there are lots of sites out there that review
laptops - if you could get them to sign-up to this the microformatted
information would become available quickly (all it would take is one
person to review a laptop).

Thoughts and comments welcome ..

-stephen

-- 
stephen@skynet.ie                             http://www.skynet.ie/~stephen/

From aconbere at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 13:06:00 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Thu Jan 25 13:06:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <509091.40882.qm@web30813.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <509091.40882.qm@web30813.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701251306y26012312if0765eeffdd290a1@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, Tim White <tjameswhite@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 1/25/2007, Anders said:
> >I've added a page to the wiki to catalog examples of source code being
> >published online and the ways they do that.
> >
> >http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples
> >
> >I suppose I'll be filling that in over the next couple of days.
> >
> >~ Anders
> >
>
> snip
>
> >> > > All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and
> >just
> >> > > plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This
> >data is
> >> > > typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence,
> >the
> >> > > language type and version and various other bits of meta data.
> >This
> >> > > seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.
>
>
> At first blush it looks like this would fit in and existing proposal, something like hReview. It seems to have enough fields to cover it  (though this might abuse the intent of hReview; i.e. we aren't reviewing a piece of code, but distributing it).
>
> You may also want to take a look at the hProduct discussion (http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-proposal).
>
> As is evidenced by your blog post and the wiki page, it looks like about the only thing not covered by an existing microformat is the code itself, but I think that it could work in hProduct's description field.
>
> ~Tim

I agree what I'm proposing is more of a "macro-format" or a
conglomerate of several microformats.  I think the biggest thing that
distinguishes it from something like hproduct or hreview (and maybe it
could be squeezed in there with a little bit of work, but hear me out)
is in two cases.

First is in consumption, with hproduct and hreview we have by and
large a single class of consumption, reviews, products etc.  Tools
used to scrape for those will be wildy different than the tools needed
to scrape for code samples.

Second is the inclusion of licensing and language options which seem
wildly out of place in either of those formats but I think are very
important to the webs use of code samples.

I'm no micorformat expert so I really don't know what is possible with
subclassing or mushing, but those are two reasons that stand out in my
head simply squeezing a code sample into one of those microformats
might be a bad idea.

~ Anders
From aconbere at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 13:15:00 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Thu Jan 25 13:15:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <CAF9A497-E8CC-43F3-B604-688654992D55@nyu.edu>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF9A497-E8CC-43F3-B604-688654992D55@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701251315p6a907b7dl959662e9142ba1c4@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, Jonathan C Williams <jonathan.williams@nyu.edu> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2007, at 10:30 PM, anders conbere wrote:
>
> > All over the web there are code snippets and code examples, and just
> > plain people showing of little programs they've written.  This data is
> > typical acompanied by an author or list of authors, a lisence, the
> > language type and version and various other bits of meta data.  This
> > seems to me to be an excelent place for microformats.
>
> It seems like this would be an interesting place to suggest an
> (optional) extension of this proposal to create a standard for class
> based syntax highlighting. It may too ambitious but marking up stuff
> inside <code> with class names corresponding to what is is (variable,
> function, array indirection, operator, etc) could lead the way
> towards making things that could, for example, find all `php` code
> with calls to the `function` named `ldap_connect`.

I think this is a grand idea, but somewhat more than I'm willing to
bite off, and I worry that it would muddle the waters of actual
digestion of the code.  Say for instance you wanted to store all of
your code samples in a local sql-light database application, then
search them, and test them.  Would the code-samples be stored in html
or plain-text?  If they are in html they would have to be rendered or
stripped of tags first and then passed to whatever application might
parse them.  If they are in plain text this task becomes substantially
easier.

>
> Also, we should keep in mind that <code> isn't always procedural
> programming code can be examples of CSS, XML, HTML, YAML, TeX, etc.
> Would we want to consider methods of categorizing code in a rich
> taxonomy -- distinguishing between `markup`, `functional`
> `procedural`, `object-oriented` <code> above the level of language?
> I'm guessing this approach is not a good idea.

In my mind there would be little distinction made for those kinds of
granularities.  It would seem like a list of standard names for
languages would be nice as it would greatly ease the ability to make
distinctions.  (while some might have PHP others might have Php, etc
or C# versus C-sharp).  Those categories might fit into a list of
rel=tag's, but when considering digesting of code samples, the type of
code shouldn't matter nearly as much as the actual language itself.

>
> --
> Jonathan Williams
> NYU Steinhardt
> jonathan.williams@nyu.edu
> +1 212 998 5308
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From aconbere at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 14:37:13 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Thu Jan 25 14:37:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701251437s5b563113wc1e242ffaab60e85@mail.gmail.com>

I can't help but consider the security implications here, password
managers have been giving the browser developers hell this whole last
year, in attempting to determine what forms are safe to submit private
data to, and which are not.  This kind of "here's my hCard"
exclamation seems nice in theory (and would probably be great for
people trying to broadcast their personal information) but it strikes
me as an excellent way for anyone to steal your personal data and
collect your information.

~ Anders

On 1/25/07, Chris Newell <chris.newell@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My head is spinning from reading too much of the website at once so forgive me if I've missed the obvious.
>
> The "Microformats in REST Web Services" page appears to concern the use of microformats to describe a web service.
>
> Has it been considered whether microformats could also be used with forms to allow a user to enter structured data automatically?
>
> e.g. this site needs my address details but luckily my browser has spotted their form will accept my hcard.
>
> Chris
>
> BTW I hate filling in forms :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From bewest at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 16:46:15 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Thu Jan 25 16:46:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] wikia and hcard?
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701251646t7ac0d1br5c007744b39ce789@mail.gmail.com>

<http://wikia.com/wiki/Collaboration_of_the_month/Genealogy/Blurb>
These folks just popped up on my radar, and I think there is a great
opportunity here.  I don't know too much about their requirements, but
this is a quote from the web page:
---------
Of particular importance is developing a simpified system for entering
basic data about an individual. Individual articles vary in
organization, but all "person" articles include certain basic data
such as Date of Birth, Date of Death, Spouse, Children, etc. Because
of the nature of genealogy the same data often has to be entered on
several different articles. For example, a typical article includes a
list of the person's children (a child list). That list usually
includes basic information about the child, such as their date and
place of birth and maybe spouse, etc. Eventually each child on the
list may get a separate article as well. That article will include the
same information as given in each parent's "child" list. Currently,
that information has to be manually duplicated; what's needed is a
system that automatically creates the child page, and then transfers
the needed information from the parental page - as stand-alone
genealogy programs have been doing for years. It can probably be done
with text boxes, etc., but currently that doesn't seem to be a
capability of the wiki programming. An extension is needed to add that
capability.
----------

Sounds like a great use case for rel and hcard to me.  Anyone have any
idea what a prototype for this would look like? We already have hcard
and rel creators, which might make a great starting point for someone.

Ben West
From scott at randomchaos.com  Thu Jan 25 17:42:59 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Thu Jan 25 17:43:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701251315p6a907b7dl959662e9142ba1c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701241930t4bb6b3e3x7426c5cfdef47305@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF9A497-E8CC-43F3-B604-688654992D55@nyu.edu>
	<8ca3fbe80701251315p6a907b7dl959662e9142ba1c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D07C8B4C-05CA-47F3-B27B-8C126A39BB43@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 25, 2007, at 3:15 PM, anders conbere wrote:

> On 1/25/07, Jonathan C Williams <jonathan.williams@nyu.edu> wrote:
>> It seems like this would be an interesting place to suggest an
>> (optional) extension ...
>
> I think this is a grand idea, but somewhat more than I'm willing to
> bite off

In addition, one of the principles: "start as simple as possible"

http://microformats.org/about

>> Would we want to consider methods of categorizing code in a rich
>> taxonomy ...
>
> In my mind there would be little distinction made for those kinds of
> granularities.

I agree.  Again, start as simple as possible.

Peace,
Scott

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 17:53:01 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Thu Jan 25 17:53:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
References: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701251753y7450a078md38c3c56be9c1e69@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Killian,

Take a look at XBN -- we brought up this idea awhile back on Tara's urging...

http://tinyurl.com/2qa5pc

There's also more there generally about the idea of "professional"
relationships. I favor a moderate advancement of professional
relationships, especially in the context of hResume...

Let's see if we can advance the topic this time around.

Chris


On 1/25/07, Kilian Valkhof <kilian@kilianvalkhof.com> wrote:
> Dear Microformat-discuss readers,
>
> First, forgive me if I'm screwing this up, I know absolutely nothing
> about mailing lists.
>
> Secondly, I joined because of XPN, an 'XHTML Professionals Network'
> microformat. I thought this up at the end of December, and tried to
> contact Eric, Tantek and Matt through e-mail to get their opinions. I
> haven't had a reply yet, but I saw a little blurp about it on the
> microformats homepage today. (Seemingly from a couple of days earlier
> then I blogged about it, funny how these things work.)
>
> My original ideas can be read here:
> http://kilianvalkhof.com/2006/web/rel-for-practical-use/
>
> I imagined the XPN as a way to define client/developer (rel="client",
> rel="developer") relationships, and built from there. For example, add
> freelancer to it (rel="developer freelancer") or define what part you
> did on the website (rel="client sliced", rel="client design")
>
> An XPN could be expanded to other business sectors as well, but it seems
> smart to start with the web development one.
>
> The direct use for it would be to open the way to a sitemadeby: search,
> next to the defining relationships part.
>
> I don't know if an XPN should be part of XFN or next to it. I would say
> next to it, because it's a different thing. But you could also argue
> that it's a continuation of XFN and as such, should be part of it.
>
> Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself here, what are your opinions about
> such a microformat?
>
> Cheers,
> Kilian Valkhof
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 25 18:31:39 2007
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Thu Jan 25 18:31:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
Message-ID: <698724.30022.qm@web30810.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On 1/25/2007 Anders said:
>I agree what I'm proposing is more of a "macro-format" or a
>conglomerate of several microformats. 

...snip...

>First is in consumption, with hproduct and hreview we have by and
>large a single class of consumption, reviews, products etc.  Tools
>used to scrape for those will be wildy different than the tools needed
>to scrape for code samples.

I see your point...

>Second is the inclusion of licensing and language options which seem
>wildly out of place in either of those formats but I think are very
>important to the webs use of code samples.

I'm not so sure it's that out of place. hReview actually allows rel-license. But...

>I'm no micorformat expert

me neither. Perhaps someone who knows hproduct/review and tools that scrape them will have some input.

 
~ Tim

tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com





 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
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From scott at randomchaos.com  Thu Jan 25 19:12:15 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Thu Jan 25 19:12:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Some (newbie) questions on microformats
In-Reply-To: <45B91ABF.7090207@skynet.ie>
References: <45B91ABF.7090207@skynet.ie>
Message-ID: <08A8244D-1964-408F-8B14-710D1A0777ED@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 25, 2007, at 3:01 PM, stephen mulcahy wrote:

> I've read a few introductory articles and faqs but still have some
> questions about how microformats fit together and work. When I first
> came across microformats I had the (mistaken) impression that they  
> were
> a way for anyone to arbitrarily mark-up their data. After some more
> reading and a little contempltation I come to the (obvious)
> understanding that that couldn't really work - I mean, what good is a
> formatting your data in a format that only you can understand (I guess
> it might make some sense for large organisations but apart from  
> that ...)?

Homebrewed semantics aren't nearly as useful as microformats, but  
they do have some value.  When I'm trying to make use of data on  
another site, and I look at their source and see it has description  
markup, that makes my job easier, and makes the web better.   
Microformats are just the logical next step.

> So my current understanding of microformats is that they are a new
> approach to adding meaning to the web by (lightly) tagging existing
> content (in XHTML) to add a semantic dimension to documents. The  
> barrier
> to entry is pretty low because in a little of cases you can tag your
> existing content by simply adding some class attributes to your
> document, right?

Basically, yes.

> This contrasts with the semantic web where you need to
> take your data in its existing formats and create RDF from it.

Right.

> In terms of standards - is
> http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page#Specifications a definitive  
> list
> of the microformats in use?

Not exactly.  Many of the drafts are in use.  Many of the exploratory  
discussions are even in use.  Those under "specifications" are in use  
widely enough and/or long enough to be considered relatively stable.   
But it's really more of a spectrum.

> If someone wants to introduce a new one is
> the approach described in -
> http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_When_should_I_use_a_microformat. 
> 3F_What_are_they_for.3F.22
> the best way to approach things?

That depends on what you mean by "introduce a new one."  If you mean  
newly introduce an existing microformat to your markup, yes.  If you  
mean to propose a new microformat, you should look at the process.

> I guess in most cases this info is already on manufacturers websites,
> but its certainly not amenable to scraping and parsing semantically  
> (and
> maybe its not in the interests of the manfacturers to provide the
> information in a format that lets me easily compare them to other
> manufacturers) but it strikes me that if they did .. it would be  
> really,
> really easy for me to go to all the major manufacturers websites, suck
> them their microformatted data and then analyse it off line - I see
> something like an openoffice datapilot table (microsoft excel pivot
> table) where I can click various filters to match my criteria above  
> and
> sort the output according to something like price and voila, my  
> choices
> are obvious - is there a microformat that lends itself to this sort of
> thing already.
>
> Is this the kind of scenario that microformats could meet or am I way
> off of the mark?

See hProduct and hListing:

http://microformats.org/wiki/product
http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting

These have been in progress for a while, and if you're interested in  
this area, I'd encourage you to review the process, look at what's  
missing in the wiki, and try to move this forward to a microformat  
that will suit your needs.

> I guess even if manufacturers didn't want to
> participate in this, there are lots of sites out there that review
> laptops - if you could get them to sign-up to this the microformatted
> information would become available quickly (all it would take is one
> person to review a laptop).

Right, adoption is the hard part.  It helps to get interested parties  
involved in the discussion early.

Peace,
Scott
From steve at ganz.name  Thu Jan 25 19:14:27 2007
From: steve at ganz.name (Steve Ganz)
Date: Thu Jan 25 19:14:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701251753y7450a078md38c3c56be9c1e69@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
	<1bc4603e0701251753y7450a078md38c3c56be9c1e69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c740f8$17266dd0$6501a8c0@FIVE>

On Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:53 PM Chris Messina wrote:
 
> Take a look at XBN -- we brought up this idea awhile back on 
> Tara's urging...
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2qa5pc
> 
> There's also more there generally about the idea of "professional"
> relationships. I favor a moderate advancement of professional 
> relationships, especially in the context of hResume...

> Let's see if we can advance the topic this time around.

Thanks for re-posting this, Chris. I don't know how I missed it the first
time around. About a year ago, when I was playing with hResume for the first
time[1], I found the need to extend on XFN and came up with space seperated
values like: rel="employer former", rel="employer current".

Now that I'm working at LinkedIn, I can see the need for other definitions.
For a real-world example, LinkedIn defines the following relationships (this
is taken directly from what we present to the user for LinkedIn
recommendations):

#  Colleague: You've worked with Joe at the same company
  - You managed Joe directly
  - You reported directly to Joe 
  - You were senior to Joe, but did not manage directly
  - Abdul was senior to you, but you did not report directly
  - You worked with Joe in the same group
  - You worked with Joe in different groups

#  Service Provider: You've hired Joe to provide a service for you or your
company

#  Business Partner: You've worked with Joe, but not as a client or
colleague
  - You worked with Joe but were at different companies
  - Joe was a client of yours

Obviously, what LinkedIn calls a Colleague in the description above
translates to "co-worker" in XFN and what we call a Business Partner
translates to "colleague" in XFN. Right now, we currently use XFN to markup
a user's contacts as rel="contact". We want to expand XFN usage in the near
term so that a contact at the same company is marked up as a
rel="co-worker". But it would be great to have some additional values to
work with. 

Beyond the professional relationships, a relationship that we define at
LinkedIn is that of "classmate". I see this in use at a number of social
networks. I think rel="classmate" with variations of "former" and "current"
would be very useful.

- Steve

[1] http://steve.ganz.name/blog/2006/01/hresume.html

From horsepigcow at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 20:04:31 2007
From: horsepigcow at gmail.com (Tara Hunt)
Date: Thu Jan 25 20:04:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <006f01c740f8$17266dd0$6501a8c0@FIVE>
References: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
	<1bc4603e0701251753y7450a078md38c3c56be9c1e69@mail.gmail.com>
	<006f01c740f8$17266dd0$6501a8c0@FIVE>
Message-ID: <310024cb0701252004n6b0cc5b1ve6e1ef8a5f72cc1f@mail.gmail.com>

We actually started discussing what we were calling XBN back last
summer when we started Citizen Agency because of our own selfish
needs. ;)

LinkedIN is a good place to start thinking as well as applications
like Salesforce and Zoho and Omni. All of these are great business
applications that have very social elements.

We were thinking along the lines of:

Vendor (instead of service provider or consultant - kind of an
industry standard term for service or goods provider)
Client
Employee (denotes a hierarchy beyond coworker, for payroll)
Partner (external business partner)

with an optional:

Lead (changes to client when RFP is won, stays a lead indefinitely if
lost to maintain a contact)
Employer (for the employee to point back to a company to create a
validated bond, but could just be a one-way validation?)

But hadn't had much of a chance to work on it since we got really busy.

Tara



On 1/25/07, Steve Ganz <steve@ganz.name> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:53 PM Chris Messina wrote:
>
> > Take a look at XBN -- we brought up this idea awhile back on
> > Tara's urging...
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/2qa5pc
> >
> > There's also more there generally about the idea of "professional"
> > relationships. I favor a moderate advancement of professional
> > relationships, especially in the context of hResume...
>
> > Let's see if we can advance the topic this time around.
>
> Thanks for re-posting this, Chris. I don't know how I missed it the first
> time around. About a year ago, when I was playing with hResume for the first
> time[1], I found the need to extend on XFN and came up with space seperated
> values like: rel="employer former", rel="employer current".
>
> Now that I'm working at LinkedIn, I can see the need for other definitions.
> For a real-world example, LinkedIn defines the following relationships (this
> is taken directly from what we present to the user for LinkedIn
> recommendations):
>
> #  Colleague: You've worked with Joe at the same company
>   - You managed Joe directly
>   - You reported directly to Joe
>   - You were senior to Joe, but did not manage directly
>   - Abdul was senior to you, but you did not report directly
>   - You worked with Joe in the same group
>   - You worked with Joe in different groups
>
> #  Service Provider: You've hired Joe to provide a service for you or your
> company
>
> #  Business Partner: You've worked with Joe, but not as a client or
> colleague
>   - You worked with Joe but were at different companies
>   - Joe was a client of yours
>
> Obviously, what LinkedIn calls a Colleague in the description above
> translates to "co-worker" in XFN and what we call a Business Partner
> translates to "colleague" in XFN. Right now, we currently use XFN to markup
> a user's contacts as rel="contact". We want to expand XFN usage in the near
> term so that a contact at the same company is marked up as a
> rel="co-worker". But it would be great to have some additional values to
> work with.
>
> Beyond the professional relationships, a relationship that we define at
> LinkedIn is that of "classmate". I see this in use at a number of social
> networks. I think rel="classmate" with variations of "former" and "current"
> would be very useful.
>
> - Steve
>
> [1] http://steve.ganz.name/blog/2006/01/hresume.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>



-- 
Sincerely,

Tara
-----------------------
tara 'miss rogue' hunt
agent provocateur
Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com)
blog: www.horsepigcow.com
phone: 415-694-1951
fax: 415-727-5335
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 20:30:30 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Thu Jan 25 20:30:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <DC1EC44D-C6A8-4DEC-A0A2-160448035CE8@stonecottage.com>
References: <20070117184009.38592.qmail@web33604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<DC1EC44D-C6A8-4DEC-A0A2-160448035CE8@stonecottage.com>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701252030n51659a1doee02d0a06061a5f5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, is anyone still interested in an LA meetup this weekend?
I see 4 names on the wiki page, and a couple of votes for places.

That ought to be enough for an interesting meeting - who's in?

-mike

On 1/18/07, josh lucas <josh@stonecottage.com> wrote:
> Michael -
>
> Thanks for creating the page!  I just added another option for
> Friday, the 26th at the EarthLink office though I'm totally fine with
> your suggestion for Saturday as well.
>
>
> josh
>
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Michael Leikam wrote:
>
> >
> > I'd be interested in a get together at the end of the
> > month.  To that end, I've created a wiki page with my
> > suggestion.
> >
> > Feel free to make other suggestions on the page:
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-la-microformats-
> > gettogether-planning
> >
> > -ml
> >
> > --- Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/13/07 7:24 AM, "josh lucas" <josh@stonecottage.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Part of it depends on Tantak's schedule just a bit
> >> since it would be
> >>> great if he could attend while he was down here.  We
> >> can definitely
> >>> have it at EarthLink and then move somewhere with food
> >> and drink
> >>> afterwards if that is agreeable.
> >>>
> >>> How about I throw out a date and we can move on from
> >> there?  I'm
> >>> thinking Tuesday, January 30.
> >>
> >> Hi Josh, thanks for spearheading an LA microformats
> >> meetup.
> >>
> >> I will be in LA from Thursday January 25th, through
> >> Monday January 29th, so
> >> unfortunately the 30th does not work for me.
> >>
> >> Perhaps you could start a page on the wiki where folks in
> >> the LA/SoCal area
> >> can express interest and preferences?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Tantek
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> microformats-discuss mailing list
> >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> >>
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/

From microformats at 200ok.com.au  Thu Jan 25 23:19:26 2007
From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan)
Date: Thu Jan 25 23:19:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
References: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0701252319i40e9c740rc3fb57f0b9e60642@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

> Secondly, I joined because of XPN, an 'XHTML Professionals Network'
> microformat. I thought this up at the end of December, and tried to

Well my immediate question is why not simply extend XFN? Really XFN
represents a small subset of all possible social relationships; and I
can think of problems trying to separate friends and professional
relationships - especially in the web industry.

Case in point: my XFN blogroll includes people who are both friends
and clients. I'm not going to double up my blogroll :)

I'd rather see a single "relationships" microformat which incorporates
XFN and XPN.

> I imagined the XPN as a way to define client/developer (rel="client",
> rel="developer") relationships, and built from there. For example, add
> freelancer to it (rel="developer freelancer") or define what part you
> did on the website (rel="client sliced", rel="client design")

In my view, there is no difference in the *business* relationship
between the designer+client and the developer+client - they are both
providing a service to the client. Both the designer and developer
would classify the client as "client" when linking to them.

To put it another way, you have to be careful about whether you're
defining the *relationship* or the job title (which would be better
placed in an hCard).

> An XPN could be expanded to other business sectors as well, but it seems
> smart to start with the web development one.

I don't see an immediate need to create a microformat specific to
professional relationships in the web industry. They are after *just
business relationships*, the subject matter doesn't change them :) I
suppose it does depend on just how granular you want to get; but off
the top of my head I can think of: client, partner, competitor,
employer, employee, boss, worker... none of these roles are specific
to any business.

I suppose if you ultimately wanted to specify down to specific job
titles, you'd need to separate industries - but that would be
impractical to say the least :)

> I don't know if an XPN should be part of XFN or next to it. I would say
> next to it, because it's a different thing. But you could also argue
> that it's a continuation of XFN and as such, should be part of it.

My vote is definitely that it should be part of XFN - possibly
requiring a name change of course, but it should all be part of one
uf.

Just my humble opinion of course.

cheers,

Ben

-- 
--- <http://www.200ok.com.au/>
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Thu Jan 25 23:24:22 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Thu Jan 25 23:23:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701252030n51659a1doee02d0a06061a5f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1DEEC3F.860B2%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/25/07 8:30 PM, "Michael McCracken" <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, is anyone still interested in an LA meetup this weekend?
> I see 4 names on the wiki page, and a couple of votes for places.
> 
> That ought to be enough for an interesting meeting - who's in?

I'm definitely up for it.  A friend of mine told me about the uWink
restaurant which sounded quite the techno-geeky interesting place to eat and
chat.  Saturday evening is looking like the best time slot for me - and it
looked like everyone else on the wiki page could make it then too.

More details on the wiki:

http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-la-get-together

Thanks,

Tantek

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Thu Jan 25 23:36:22 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Thu Jan 25 23:35:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <310024cb0701252004n6b0cc5b1ve6e1ef8a5f72cc1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1DEEF44.860B7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

The biggest problem to date in the XBN/XPN discussions has been a lack of
discussion of *real world* examples of professional network information
*published on the web*, not just in personal applications (whether
clientside or web-based like Salesforce).

Just because any particular individual may think they theoretically need
certain values/properties doesn't mean they belong in a microformat, nor
even whether they warrant a microformat at all.  Formats aren't about the
individual and their own personal data (though personal data can be a second
order beneficiary from formats).  Formats are about information that is to
be interoperably shared between/among people.

Thankfully Steve Ganz has provided some examples of the schema that LinkedIn
uses on their website, published for others to view (not just personal use),
now we just need URLs to actual examples in order to capture them and start
analysis based on those examples rather the people's a priori perceived
needs.

On 1/25/07 5:53 PM, "Chris Messina" <chris.messina@gmail.com> wrote:

> Let's see if we can advance the topic this time around.

Everyone that wants to advance this topic is empowered to create a
*-examples page and start documenting them.  Last time this stalled because
when faced with that challenge there was little/no follow-up.  This needs to
go beyond theoretical musings to disciplined research and documentation per
the process.

Thanks,

Tantek


On 1/25/07 8:04 PM, "Tara Hunt" <horsepigcow@gmail.com> wrote:

> We actually started discussing what we were calling XBN back last
> summer when we started Citizen Agency because of our own selfish
> needs. ;)
> 
> LinkedIN is a good place to start thinking as well as applications
> like Salesforce and Zoho and Omni. All of these are great business
> applications that have very social elements.
> 
> We were thinking along the lines of:
> 
> Vendor (instead of service provider or consultant - kind of an
> industry standard term for service or goods provider)
> Client
> Employee (denotes a hierarchy beyond coworker, for payroll)
> Partner (external business partner)
> 
> with an optional:
> 
> Lead (changes to client when RFP is won, stays a lead indefinitely if
> lost to maintain a contact)
> Employer (for the employee to point back to a company to create a
> validated bond, but could just be a one-way validation?)
> 
> But hadn't had much of a chance to work on it since we got really busy.
> 
> Tara
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/25/07, Steve Ganz <steve@ganz.name> wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:53 PM Chris Messina wrote:
>> 
>>> Take a look at XBN -- we brought up this idea awhile back on
>>> Tara's urging...
>>> 
>>> http://tinyurl.com/2qa5pc
>>> 
>>> There's also more there generally about the idea of "professional"
>>> relationships. I favor a moderate advancement of professional
>>> relationships, especially in the context of hResume...
>> 
>>> Let's see if we can advance the topic this time around.
>> 
>> Thanks for re-posting this, Chris. I don't know how I missed it the first
>> time around. About a year ago, when I was playing with hResume for the first
>> time[1], I found the need to extend on XFN and came up with space seperated
>> values like: rel="employer former", rel="employer current".
>> 
>> Now that I'm working at LinkedIn, I can see the need for other definitions.
>> For a real-world example, LinkedIn defines the following relationships (this
>> is taken directly from what we present to the user for LinkedIn
>> recommendations):
>> 
>> #  Colleague: You've worked with Joe at the same company
>>   - You managed Joe directly
>>   - You reported directly to Joe
>>   - You were senior to Joe, but did not manage directly
>>   - Abdul was senior to you, but you did not report directly
>>   - You worked with Joe in the same group
>>   - You worked with Joe in different groups
>> 
>> #  Service Provider: You've hired Joe to provide a service for you or your
>> company
>> 
>> #  Business Partner: You've worked with Joe, but not as a client or
>> colleague
>>   - You worked with Joe but were at different companies
>>   - Joe was a client of yours
>> 
>> Obviously, what LinkedIn calls a Colleague in the description above
>> translates to "co-worker" in XFN and what we call a Business Partner
>> translates to "colleague" in XFN. Right now, we currently use XFN to markup
>> a user's contacts as rel="contact". We want to expand XFN usage in the near
>> term so that a contact at the same company is marked up as a
>> rel="co-worker". But it would be great to have some additional values to
>> work with.
>> 
>> Beyond the professional relationships, a relationship that we define at
>> LinkedIn is that of "classmate". I see this in use at a number of social
>> networks. I think rel="classmate" with variations of "former" and "current"
>> would be very useful.
>> 
>> - Steve
>> 
>> [1] http://steve.ganz.name/blog/2006/01/hresume.html
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>> 
> 
> 

From laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it  Fri Jan 26 02:40:01 2007
From: laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it (Goix Laurent Walter)
Date: Fri Jan 26 02:40:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33875@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
Message-ID: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>

Hi,

Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat
that could describe information related to the mood or the activity of a
person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the web, or
what they have been doing during the day, so it would be interesting to
better formalize this information...

Thanks
Walter
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From brian.suda at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 02:56:56 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Fri Jan 26 02:56:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Process Mailing List?
Message-ID: <21e770780701260256v3498d5d6rac8fec4e1c3210d7@mail.gmail.com>

I think in my last reply to the admin list i was querying about why we
thought we needed a mailing list about developing new microformats. I
said that no new formats were being pitched... well this week alone
has seen hCode and hMood and others.

Can we re-open the discussion about starting something like
"microformats-process@microformats.org"?

We can hopefully quarantine some of these early discussion away from
the normal signal/noise on the discuss list.

Thanks,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From tjameswhite at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 26 04:22:15 2007
From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White)
Date: Fri Jan 26 04:22:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
Message-ID: <104450.12151.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Life is full of little synchronicities...

On the WSG mailing list I noticed a bit about styling a code listing. While the article talks specifically about CSS styling, I thought the underlining structure he's using could be informative to the code discussion:

http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/how_to_style_a_code_listing.asp
 
~ Tim

<a href="http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com</a>





 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.  
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Jan 26 05:18:20 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Jan 26 05:18:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Process Mailing List?
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701260256v3498d5d6rac8fec4e1c3210d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780701260256v3498d5d6rac8fec4e1c3210d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701260518y65be1a5ve5d8605b41750c0d@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/26/07, Brian Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can we re-open the discussion about starting something like
> "microformats-process@microformats.org"?
>
> We can hopefully quarantine some of these early discussion away from
> the normal signal/noise on the discuss list.

+2

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From aconbere at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 07:57:48 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Fri Jan 26 07:57:50 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <104450.12151.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <104450.12151.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701260757q1090c4bau6fe07028f32173d@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have any more ideas on high profile sites that include
code snippets or examples in (x)html?  I feel like we could still use
a better profile of existing use documented.

On that note, other than chatting with some people about modifying the
existing use of hReview or hProduct to match the needs of a code
microformat is there anything else I should be doing to either raise
awareness or ...

~ Anders

On 1/26/07, Tim White <tjameswhite@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Life is full of little synchronicities...
>
> On the WSG mailing list I noticed a bit about styling a code listing. While the article talks specifically about CSS styling, I thought the underlining structure he's using could be informative to the code discussion:
>
> http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/how_to_style_a_code_listing.asp
>
> ~ Tim
>
> <a href="http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com</a>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Finding fabulous fares is fun.
> Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Fri Jan 26 08:08:10 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Fri Jan 26 08:08:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701260757q1090c4bau6fe07028f32173d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <104450.12151.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701260757q1090c4bau6fe07028f32173d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701260808sffb1a70xdece50efe9a0f089@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/26/07, anders conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have any more ideas on high profile sites that include
> code snippets or examples in (x)html?  I feel like we could still use
> a better profile of existing use documented.

ActiveState has phenominal amounts of code in many different
languages. For example [1].

Regards, etc...

[1] http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/501154

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From drernie at opendarwin.org  Fri Jan 26 08:48:59 2007
From: drernie at opendarwin.org (Dr. Ernie Prabhakar)
Date: Fri Jan 26 08:49:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Process Mailing List?
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701260518y65be1a5ve5d8605b41750c0d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780701260256v3498d5d6rac8fec4e1c3210d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701260518y65be1a5ve5d8605b41750c0d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8B505BE-4ADA-49FD-AC21-BD11B5F78195@opendarwin.org>

On Jan 26, 2007, at 5:18 AM, David Janes wrote:
>> Can we re-open the discussion about starting something like
>> "microformats-process@microformats.org"?
>>
>> We can hopefully quarantine some of these early discussion away from
>> the normal signal/noise on the discuss list.
>
> +2
+1

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Fri Jan 26 11:00:28 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Fri Jan 26 10:59:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Process Mailing List?
In-Reply-To: <C8B505BE-4ADA-49FD-AC21-BD11B5F78195@opendarwin.org>
Message-ID: <C1DF8FC7.86142%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 1/26/07 8:48 AM, "Dr. Ernie Prabhakar" <drernie@opendarwin.org> wrote:

> On Jan 26, 2007, at 5:18 AM, David Janes wrote:
>>> Can we re-open the discussion about starting something like
>>> "microformats-process@microformats.org"?

When re-raising/opening a discussion, please provide a URL to the relevant
wiki page which captured the state of the discussion previously.

http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists-proposals

In general, if no such wiki page exists, ask for it.  If no one can find it,
ask the list for help with researching the previous discussion and creating
a wiki page for it.

>>> We can hopefully quarantine some of these early discussion away from
>>> the normal signal/noise on the discuss list.
>> 
>> +2
> +1

Agreed.  Please add your opinions to the list of options (or add another
option)

http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists-proposals#Mailing_Lists_Proposals

and please add your name and "-1" to the do nothing option:

http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists-proposals#Change_nothing

Thanks,

Tantek

From aconbere at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 11:19:03 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Fri Jan 26 11:19:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode microformat proposal
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701260808sffb1a70xdece50efe9a0f089@mail.gmail.com>
References: <104450.12151.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701260757q1090c4bau6fe07028f32173d@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701260808sffb1a70xdece50efe9a0f089@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701261119q2f65bea2ta17a8002a42ae7fe@mail.gmail.com>

I've updated code-examples to include activestate (I was trying to
think of what the name of that site was earlier but couldn't recall)
And I've also added http://microformats.org/wiki/code-brainstorming to
start collecting discussions about where we might see this going.

Thanks,
Anders
From robertc at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 11:37:34 2007
From: robertc at gmail.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Fri Jan 26 11:37:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and forms
In-Reply-To: <F0EBE3A1-FB24-4E08-9909-7FE507AE1D6C@nyu.edu>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070125121315.028bac00@pop3>
	<923a87360701250513m6f45369dx2307f014bb8cd13e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B8B211.9030104@xwolf.de>
	<923a87360701250704x57f73b43ub1e0bc864997702d@mail.gmail.com>
	<F0EBE3A1-FB24-4E08-9909-7FE507AE1D6C@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <3ce2ebd20701261137w6436af3td66aa02864adf707@mail.gmail.com>

On 25/01/07, Jonathan C Williams <jonathan.williams@nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> The Live Clipboard (http://www.liveclipboard.org/) stuff seems to be
> a step in the direction of letting forms consume microformats. I
> haven't looked at it recently.
>
I've spent a couple of hours this afternoon getting the contact page
on the website I'm working on to accept hCards through LiveClipboard:

http://www.serviceworksglobal.com/demo/pages/contact-us.html

It seems to work OK, I can copy an hCard from the LiveClipboard demo
[1] and use it to populate the form in IE.  I can also pick up hCards
with Operator and use them to populate the form, though Operator seems
to lose the email address.  Trying to paste invalid or empty data in
seems to kill it until page reload, so I probably need to add some
checking in somewhere.

I took the code from the 'Tech Preview' [2] page and hacked it around
without any great attempt to understand how it worked, so the 78k
javascript file I ended up with through the 'copy and paste'
development technique could be greatly reduced (I'm only really
interested in the paste functionality, after all).  Also, it's leaving
a lot of unnecessary crud in the page at the minute because I couldn't
work out how to do without the contactHcard1 div, so I took the easy
way out and hid it.

Rob

[1] http://spaces.live.com/editorial/rayozzie/demo/liveclip/liveclipsample/clipboardexample.html
[2] http://spaces.live.com/editorial/rayozzie/demo/liveclip/liveclipsample/techPreview.html
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 14:03:26 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Fri Jan 26 14:03:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <C1DEEC3F.860B2%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <d4fa3cf70701252030n51659a1doee02d0a06061a5f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DEEC3F.860B2%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701261403u5b24af60t15c7a6ea4fecaac4@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On 1/25/07 8:30 PM, "Michael McCracken" <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi, is anyone still interested in an LA meetup this weekend?
> > I see 4 names on the wiki page, and a couple of votes for places.
> >
> > That ought to be enough for an interesting meeting - who's in?
>
> I'm definitely up for it.  A friend of mine told me about the uWink
> restaurant which sounded quite the techno-geeky interesting place to eat and
> chat.  Saturday evening is looking like the best time slot for me - and it
> looked like everyone else on the wiki page could make it then too.
>
> More details on the wiki:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-la-get-together
>

uWink sounds cool. I'll be there. Any proposals for a time?

PS, If anyone wants to carpool from San Diego or the OC, drop me a line.

-mike
-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan 26 13:22:22 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jan 26 14:14:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Process Mailing List?
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701260256v3498d5d6rac8fec4e1c3210d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780701260256v3498d5d6rac8fec4e1c3210d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <qqEATBJOEnuFFwpO@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e770780701260256v3498d5d6rac8fec4e1c3210d7@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> writes

>I
>said that no new formats were being pitched... well this week alone
>has seen hCode and hMood and others.

There are ~56 entries under:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page#Exploratory_Discussions>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 23-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jan 26 13:33:53 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jan 26 14:14:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] wikia and hcard?
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701251646t7ac0d1br5c007744b39ce789@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ad71be30701251646t7ac0d1br5c007744b39ce789@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <uaHBv9JBPnuFFwKk@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <8ad71be30701251646t7ac0d1br5c007744b39ce789@mail.gmail.com>,
Benjamin West <bewest@gmail.com> writes

>Of particular importance is developing a simpified system for entering
>basic data about an individual. Individual articles vary in
>organization, but all "person" articles include certain basic data
>such as
[...]
>Date of Death

Hence:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-suggestions#Deceased>

See also:

        <http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007324.html>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 23-day week!
From jonathan.williams at nyu.edu  Fri Jan 26 15:34:32 2007
From: jonathan.williams at nyu.edu (Jonathan C Williams)
Date: Fri Jan 26 15:33:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
References: <45B8F05B.2080501@kilianvalkhof.com>
Message-ID: <34FCA450-A548-42C5-B7C0-1A1361DBE853@nyu.edu>

On Jan 25, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Kilian Valkhof wrote:

> I imagined the XPN as a way to define client/developer  
> (rel="client", rel="developer") relationships, and built from  
> there. For example, add freelancer to it (rel="developer  
> freelancer") or define what part you did on the website  
> (rel="client sliced", rel="client design")

Hi Kilian,

How would you propose XPN deal with entities (both the referrer and  
the linked page) that are not singular human beings (companies,  
departments, etc)? It seems like a group microformat ( see http:// 
microformats.org/wiki/group-brainstorming ) would be a prerequisite  
for meaningful XPN. However, all the proposals for a group  
microformat are about the individual-as-member-of-group relationship  
and don't seem like they would make allow XPN to express  
relationships like "as an employee of Foobar ltd, I worked on project  
X for Fred's Widgets".

Perhaps this is getting too close to hResume land, but it seems like  
XPN, as it stands now, may not be as precise as I would like.

--
Jonathan Williams
NYU Steinhardt
jonathan.williams@nyu.edu
+1 212 998 5308


From russ at maxdesign.com.au  Fri Jan 26 18:38:41 2007
From: russ at maxdesign.com.au (russ - maxdesign)
Date: Fri Jan 26 18:38:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <200701261040.l0QAems3031841@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au>

> Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat
> that could describe information related to the mood or the activity of a
> person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the web, or
> what they have been doing during the day, so it would be interesting to
> better formalize this information...

Hey Walter,

It's funny that you mention mood microformats. I blogged about this same
topic a day or so ago:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2007/01/26/mood-microformats/

My suggestion was slightly tongue in cheek, though :)
Russ



From steve at ganz.name  Fri Jan 26 21:08:16 2007
From: steve at ganz.name (Steve Ganz)
Date: Fri Jan 26 21:08:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LinkedIn Launches hResume
In-Reply-To: <C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au>
References: <200701261040.l0QAems3031841@microformats.org>
	<C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au>
Message-ID: <004301c741d1$27af5200$4d1110ac@FIVE>


LinkedIn is officially live with hResume on close to 9 million Public
Profiles. Take a look at mine for an example
http://linkedin.com/in/steveganz/

You can learn more about the development process at
http://steve.ganz.name/blog/2007/01/linkedin-launches-hresume.html

If you have a LinkedIn account, be sure to activate Full View on your Public
Profile to see hResume in full effect. To do this, log in and go to My
Profile > Edit Public Profile.

Props to Brian Suda who provided inspiration and support while I worked on
this over the holidays.

- Steve Ganz

From timber at lava.net  Fri Jan 26 22:01:34 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Fri Jan 26 22:01:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
References: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
Message-ID: <41D9368A-40FC-4F2D-8194-E0240B76B786@lava.net>

On Jan 26, 2007, at 2:40 AM, Goix Laurent Walter wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat
> that could describe information related to the mood or the activity  
> of a
> person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the  
> web, or
> what they have been doing during the day, so it would be interesting  
> to
> better formalize this information...

How is mood information useful? I can think of some silly examples,  
but I don't really see how knowing what someone's when they wrote a  
particular blog entry would be useful, or what a tool could do with it  
-- remember, microformats are about solving problems.

What *would* be useful would be some way to mark up where you are  
writing a blog entry / news item, etc, from or about. Perhaps hCal has  
the right semantics for this? ("on date X at time Y I was in location  
Z").

I'm not sure if there's much existing semantic HTML for this. My guess  
would be that currently people say "I'm writing from MacWorld" and  
then link MacWorld to the event information. Simply embedding an  
hCalendar item discussing the event probably isn't enough -- someone  
could simply be discussing the event.

Anyone else think this would be an interesting area for further  
research of existing examples -- or even better, have done research in  
this area already?

-Colin
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan 27 02:45:26 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan 27 03:42:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au>
References: <200701261040.l0QAems3031841@microformats.org>
	<C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au>
Message-ID: <c4mt3dVG1yuFFwfj@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au>, russ - maxdesign
<russ@maxdesign.com.au> quoted:

>> Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat
>> that could describe information related to the mood or the activity of a
>> person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the web, or
>> what they have been doing during the day, so it would be interesting to
>> better formalize this information...

[the original message hasn't arrived here]

The Register did this much better, years ago:

        <http://www.theregister.com/2001/02/01/the_color_of_irony/>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 24-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jan 27 02:54:14 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jan 27 03:42:32 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LinkedIn Launches hResume
In-Reply-To: <004301c741d1$27af5200$4d1110ac@FIVE>
References: <200701261040.l0QAems3031841@microformats.org>
	<C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au>
	<004301c741d1$27af5200$4d1110ac@FIVE>
Message-ID: <l4yj3YWW9yuFFwYF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <004301c741d1$27af5200$4d1110ac@FIVE>, Steve Ganz
<steve@ganz.name> writes

>Take a look at mine for an example
>http://linkedin.com/in/steveganz/

That gives a "Profile not found message", (but not a 404 error).

Removing the trailing slash finds the profile.

I think both the trailing slash issue and missing 404 are errors which
need fixing.

I see you formerly worked for PayPal. Do you have any contacts there,
who may be interested in adding, say, hCard?

Please see also' eBay', under:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#Various>


Thank you.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 24-day week!
From derrick at pallas.us  Sat Jan 27 10:20:31 2007
From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas)
Date: Sat Jan 27 10:20:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] "Hello World" or "How do I get started with the
	process?"
Message-ID: <45BB97EF.5000304@pallas.us>

For anyone that hasn't met me: I'm a software engineer at a search 
company. (However, nothing I say on this list is on behalf of or 
reflects the views of my company.) For anyone that has met me: yes, I 
finally signed up. (I'll no longer need to read over Ben's shoulder.)

I've been consuming microformats and have some ideas for an additional 
format. I've done some research to that end but am not sure if just 
putting up a page on the wiki is the right first step. (Are there actual 
templates for the pages described in the process document? Or should I 
just mimic similarly named pages?)

~D

From steve at ganz.name  Sat Jan 27 10:38:38 2007
From: steve at ganz.name (Steve Ganz)
Date: Sat Jan 27 10:38:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LinkedIn Launches hResume
In-Reply-To: <l4yj3YWW9yuFFwYF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <200701261040.l0QAems3031841@microformats.org><C1E10661.29CE4%russ@maxdesign.com.au><004301c741d1$27af5200$4d1110ac@FIVE>
	<l4yj3YWW9yuFFwYF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <001201c74242$5d36dda0$4001a8c0@FIVE>

Andy Mabbett wrote on Saturday, January 27, 2007 2:54 AM
> 
> >Take a look at mine for an example
> >http://linkedin.com/in/steveganz/
> 
> That gives a "Profile not found message", (but not a 404 error).

	That's my typo. I should have written
http://linkedin.com/in/steveganz

> Removing the trailing slash finds the profile.
> 
> I think both the trailing slash issue and missing 404 are 
> errors which need fixing.

	Thanks for the heads up. I'll dig into that.
 
> I see you formerly worked for PayPal. Do you have any 
> contacts there, who may be interested in adding, say, hCard?

	I evangelized on microformats and did some work in the area before I
left. I left behind some prototypes that utilize hCard and remain in close
contact with the folks there that are interested in carrying it forward.

> Please see also' eBay', under:
> 
>         <http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy#Various>
> 

	I did a presentation that touched on microformats for a group of
front-end developers at eBay as well. I'll touch base with them every now
and again.

From derrick at pallas.us  Sat Jan 27 11:54:53 2007
From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas)
Date: Sat Jan 27 11:55:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat proposal: dependancy graphs (for software)
Message-ID: <45BBAE0D.7060704@pallas.us>

I'm interested in feedback on the following idea. (Right now, I'm in the 
process of developing a corpus of live examples but that's not what I'm 
asking for.)

Essentially: software is everywhere. Because it is complex, it is 
modularized. This has the effect that not every developer will be on the 
same page. Changes can happen in a kernel that bubble up through the 
standard library into a maze of support libraries. Hopefully, separation 
of concerns and good interface design have dampened negative effects but 
there can be subtle, negative consequences.

For example, a change in the standard library can break a bad practice 
in libfoo (ignoring some return value) which causes an array bounds 
problem in libbar. Since your application uses libbar and there is no 
direct connect to libfoo, how do you know that you need to upgrade to a 
newer version of libfoo? This is especially a problem if libbar doesn't 
need to be recompiled (it retains binary compatibility with libfoo) or 
if libfoo or libbar are optional.

The same problem from the other direction is directed, acyclic 
dependency graphs. If I am building a new application from scratch, how 
do I know what libraries are possible? I could go to the web page for 
ImageMagick only to learn that I need a new version of libpng. On the 
same token, libpng needs an updated version of libz. And libz doesn't 
like my old crufty compiler. Add to that the complexity that I really 
just want to install RMagick (a Ruby interface to *Magick) which can use 
either ImageMagick or GraphicsMagick (though the interface changes in 
subtle ways depending on which library you choose) and these choices 
interact with my version of Ruby, all of the modules I use in Ruby, any 
code they link in, and the compilers for that code, ad infinitum. 
Suddenly I've got 40 browser tabs open and still no graphics library.

The preceding paragraph is a (sad but) true story. Part of the problem 
had to do with the fact that I didn't own the system and the system had 
"stable" versions of packages on it, as defined by the Fedora Core team. 
Right now, there are ways to do these builds; whether you're using 
binaries (apt-get, yum, rpm) or source (emerge, srpm, *-src), you have 
to go through a clearing house. Someone took the time to compile 
binaries or repackage source trees and write down what needed what.

But the fact is all of this information is already on the homepage for 
most software. Current aggregators rely on the author(s) submitting this 
information manually. Furthermore, commercial packages don't normally 
submit product information to sites like FreshMeat, SourceForge, or any 
language-specific repository (CPAN, PEAR).

Because the information (version, dependency, package URLs, bug alerts) 
is already there (see below) it should be fairly straight-forward to 
figure out what people already do and "semantic it up."

Take a look at:
 * http://kernel.org/
 * http://libpng.org/pub/png/libpng.html
 * http://freshmeat.net/projects/libvc/
 * http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/fcgi/
 * http://www.gentoo-portage.com/dev-lang/erlang/Dep#ptabs

Mix all of this with hCard, for authors; hReview, to help you decide 
between optionals and to detect bit-rot; and rel-license, for software 
rights issues. Suddenly we have a very powerful, automatic, user-driven 
system for keep software up to date.

~D

From scott at randomchaos.com  Sat Jan 27 11:57:22 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sat Jan 27 11:57:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <41D9368A-40FC-4F2D-8194-E0240B76B786@lava.net>
References: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
	<41D9368A-40FC-4F2D-8194-E0240B76B786@lava.net>
Message-ID: <7B1CB494-7447-442D-8E09-672A3FCA2BB5@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 27, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Colin Barrett wrote:

> What *would* be useful would be some way to mark up where you are  
> writing a blog entry / news item, etc, from or about. Perhaps hCal  
> has the right semantics for this? ("on date X at time Y I was in  
> location Z").

ADR and GEO already provide reusable markup for describing locations.

http://microformats.org/wiki/adr
http://microformats.org/wiki/geo

Is there something you want to do that isn't possible with these  
existing microformats?

Peace,
Scott
From timber at lava.net  Sat Jan 27 17:23:34 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Sat Jan 27 17:23:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <7B1CB494-7447-442D-8E09-672A3FCA2BB5@randomchaos.com>
References: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
	<41D9368A-40FC-4F2D-8194-E0240B76B786@lava.net>
	<7B1CB494-7447-442D-8E09-672A3FCA2BB5@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <8C7C2CFD-E5B8-4976-ABAB-70E21AB8969F@lava.net>

On Jan 27, 2007, at 11:57 AM, Scott Reynen wrote:

> On Jan 27, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Colin Barrett wrote:
>
>> What *would* be useful would be some way to mark up where you are  
>> writing a blog entry / news item, etc, from or about. Perhaps hCal  
>> has the right semantics for this? ("on date X at time Y I was in  
>> location Z").
>
> ADR and GEO already provide reusable markup for describing locations.
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/adr
> http://microformats.org/wiki/geo
>
> Is there something you want to do that isn't possible with these  
> existing microformats?

I'm not really even sure.

Going back and reading over my post, I have pretty much no idea what I  
was trying to say ;)

It's been one of those weeks.

-Colin
From kilian at kilianvalkhof.com  Sun Jan 28 06:58:23 2007
From: kilian at kilianvalkhof.com (Kilian Valkhof)
Date: Sun Jan 28 06:58:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
Message-ID: <45BCBA0F.1000309@kilianvalkhof.com>

Thanks for all your replies to my XPN Idea,

I started a XPN-examples page, to see if we can get this off of the 
ground. ( http://microformats.org/wiki/xpn-examples )

A couple of replies to the discussion:

Steve Ganz; Former and current would be good additions, and thank's alot 
for posting what you've already done at linkedIn, I added it to the 
wiki. I can see some problems with XFN there, so we'll probably need to 
look into that.

Tara Hunt; Those are good additions too.(general question:) Can we add 
those to the examples pages, or would we need to make a XPN-ideas page, too?

Ben Buchanan; I don't really agree with you there, there are plenty of 
web development company's that have clients they do not concider 
friends. While there are those that do, I don't think we should alienate 
those that don't. A relationships microformat which incorporates both 
XFN and XPN would be a great solution indeed.

You are completely right about sliced and design not being a 
relationship. You are also right about defining global business 
relationships, It seems I wanted to define too much.

Tantek ?elik; Thanks for your reply, I decided to jump in and make a 
wiki page. I understand your concerns about it not being real world 
examples, But (I think) in essence any portfolio or client list 
currently tries to define those relationships.

Jonathan Williams; If a webdesign company made a website, it's made by 
the company; not by it's individual members. This would pose problems 
with projects not done by a company but by a group of individual 
persons. In that case the client relationships would still be legimate, 
right? It does have some crossover with hResume, I agree.

As I am fairly new at this, I wouldn't mind any gentle directions as to 
what I should and should not do.

Thanks,

Kilian Valkhof
From microformats at 200ok.com.au  Sun Jan 28 15:35:06 2007
From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan)
Date: Sun Jan 28 15:35:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <45BCBA0F.1000309@kilianvalkhof.com>
References: <45BCBA0F.1000309@kilianvalkhof.com>
Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0701281535w1da0e283g573cecc4357f7fef@mail.gmail.com>

Hi again,

> Ben Buchanan; I don't really agree with you there, there are plenty of
> web development company's that have clients they do not concider
> friends. While there are those that do, I don't think we should alienate
> those that don't. A relationships microformat which incorporates both
> XFN and XPN would be a great solution indeed.

I wasn't saying all business/clients were friends - my point was just
that creating a "business only" microformat seems counter productive.
I think XFN and XPN should be superseded by one single, combined
relationships microformat which can cover all bases.

If someone only wanted to show a friends network they could; if a
company only wants to show business relationships they could do that
too. Nobody would be alienated with a combined uf.

I would happily see XFN extended with business relationships since
it's only the name which prevents that happening. Rename it from
"friends network" to "relationship network" or something and it's all
good :)

To approach it another way - XFN is essentially just an addon to
blogrolls. A business blogroll does not have any requirements that
cannot be met by XFN's pattern - it's just that XFN is limited to a
narrow set of "friend" relationships (although they spill over to
professional as well, with colleague etc). We could extend XFN - which
is already adopted by many people/sites - to include more values and
avoid creating competing ufs.

> You are completely right about sliced and design not being a
> relationship. You are also right about defining global business
> relationships, It seems I wanted to define too much.

I feel that you're heading into resume territory - allowing people to
specify what they did on a specific project. Still valuable, but not
something that would really work in a blogroll situation (being the
most common use of XFN I've seen so far).

cheers,

Ben

-- 
--- <http://www.200ok.com.au/>
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
From eu at rafaeloliveira.net  Sun Jan 28 18:06:42 2007
From: eu at rafaeloliveira.net (Rafael Oliveira)
Date: Sun Jan 28 18:06:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0701281535w1da0e283g573cecc4357f7fef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BCBA0F.1000309@kilianvalkhof.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701281535w1da0e283g573cecc4357f7fef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27acaa2d0701281806w1b0042d1nab18336c954bf737@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone. I'm new to the list =)

Sorry to intrude here but, I  believe it's not necessary an XPN. I
think just an addition of a client and a "service provider"* relations
is enough to fit in, and would be a nice addition.

Also, I agree that including the type of work done to a client or vice
versa would be getting in the resume territory and would be kind of
too much.

If the addition of these two should be done, the name would feel wrong
too, as Ben Buchana said, changing it to Relationship Network would
fit it better.

*Gotta figure out a better name for it, service provider isn't good.
But I can't think of anything better now.



2007/1/28, Ben Buchanan <microformats@200ok.com.au>:
> Hi again,
>
> I wasn't saying all business/clients were friends - my point was just
> that creating a "business only" microformat seems counter productive.
> I think XFN and XPN should be superseded by one single, combined
> relationships microformat which can cover all bases.
>
> If someone only wanted to show a friends network they could; if a
> company only wants to show business relationships they could do that
> too. Nobody would be alienated with a combined uf.
>
> I would happily see XFN extended with business relationships since
> it's only the name which prevents that happening. Rename it from
> "friends network" to "relationship network" or something and it's all
> good :)
>
> To approach it another way - XFN is essentially just an addon to
> blogrolls. A business blogroll does not have any requirements that
> cannot be met by XFN's pattern - it's just that XFN is limited to a
> narrow set of "friend" relationships (although they spill over to
> professional as well, with colleague etc). We could extend XFN - which
> is already adopted by many people/sites - to include more values and
> avoid creating competing ufs.
>
>
> I feel that you're heading into resume territory - allowing people to
> specify what they did on a specific project. Still valuable, but not
> something that would really work in a blogroll situation (being the
> most common use of XFN I've seen so far).
>
> cheers,
>
> Ben
>
> --
> --- <http://www.200ok.com.au/>
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Rafael Oliveira
http://rafaeloliveira.net
From strategicpause at gmail.com  Sun Jan 28 19:28:42 2007
From: strategicpause at gmail.com (Nick Peters)
Date: Sun Jan 28 19:28:44 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XPN: Xhtml Professional Network - idea
In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0701281535w1da0e283g573cecc4357f7fef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BCBA0F.1000309@kilianvalkhof.com>
	<6ca82b0f0701281535w1da0e283g573cecc4357f7fef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d52ba3070701281928k6f68cdc4jf2f671353ebd8ca1@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/28/07, Ben Buchanan <microformats@200ok.com.au> wrote:
> I wasn't saying all business/clients were friends - my point was just
> that creating a "business only" microformat seems counter productive.
> I think XFN and XPN should be superseded by one single, combined
> relationships microformat which can cover all bases.

I agree here.  The heart of XFN/XPN is to define your relationship
with someone.  However, they are both somewhat discriminate in regards
to the types of relationships that can be defined.  Instead I agree
and support the notion that there should be a single relationship uF
that embrace all relationship statuses (friendly, business, etc.).  By
being so broad, it would make the uF much more scalable than something
that is more specific.  This way we can keep discussions to agreed
upon rel values.

> If someone only wanted to show a friends network they could; if a
> company only wants to show business relationships they could do that
> too. Nobody would be alienated with a combined uf.
>
> I would happily see XFN extended with business relationships since
> it's only the name which prevents that happening. Rename it from
> "friends network" to "relationship network" or something and it's all
> good :)

Relationship network sounds good to me; it's to the point and not too specific.

> To approach it another way - XFN is essentially just an addon to
> blogrolls. A business blogroll does not have any requirements that
> cannot be met by XFN's pattern - it's just that XFN is limited to a
> narrow set of "friend" relationships (although they spill over to
> professional as well, with colleague etc). We could extend XFN - which
> is already adopted by many people/sites - to include more values and
> avoid creating competing ufs.
>
> cheers,
>
> Ben
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan 28 04:25:12 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan 29 01:35:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] WikiProject Microformats
Message-ID: <YsssS7roYJvFFwGJ@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


I've just launched "WikiProject Microformats"

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats>

to discuss the use of uFs on Wikipedia (and other WikiMedia products)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 25-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jan 28 04:27:32 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jan 29 01:35:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] This Week in Microformats
Message-ID: <ntbziOs0aJvFFwAe@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


The last "This Week in Microformats" was dated 17 December 2006 (over a
month ago).

Will there be another? Is some assistance in compiling it needed?

In the interim, I've noted some possible items for inclusion, at:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/this-week-pending>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 25-day week!
From stephen at skynet.ie  Mon Jan 29 02:24:53 2007
From: stephen at skynet.ie (stephen mulcahy)
Date: Mon Jan 29 02:24:57 2007
Subject: hProduct comments (was Re: [uf-discuss] Some (newbie) questions on
	microformats)
In-Reply-To: <08A8244D-1964-408F-8B14-710D1A0777ED@randomchaos.com>
References: <45B91ABF.7090207@skynet.ie>
	<08A8244D-1964-408F-8B14-710D1A0777ED@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <45BDCB75.60009@skynet.ie>

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your reply.

Scott Reynen wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2007, at 3:01 PM, stephen mulcahy wrote:
>
> ...
>> ....
>> I guess in most cases this info is already on manufacturers websites,
>> but its certainly not amenable to scraping and parsing semantically (and
>> maybe its not in the interests of the manfacturers to provide the
>> information in a format that lets me easily compare them to other
>> manufacturers) but it strikes me that if they did .. it would be really,
>> really easy for me to go to all the major manufacturers websites, suck
>> them their microformatted data and then analyse it off line - I see
>> something like an openoffice datapilot table (microsoft excel pivot
>> table) where I can click various filters to match my criteria above and
>> sort the output according to something like price and voila, my choices
>> are obvious - is there a microformat that lends itself to this sort of
>> thing already.
>>
>> Is this the kind of scenario that microformats could meet or am I way
>> off of the mark?
>
> See hProduct and hListing:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/product
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
>
> These have been in progress for a while, and if you're interested in
> this area, I'd encourage you to review the process, look at what's
> missing in the wiki, and try to move this forward to a microformat that
> will suit your needs.
>

I've taken a look at hProduct and it sounds like it "kind of" matches my
requirements, or is a start in that direction.

I'm not sure about using the 'p-v' class for capturing the details  of
each different product type though - in effect the existing hProduct
proposal is a proposal for how to define hProduct microformats (since
the 'meat' of a hProduct microformat for any particular type of product
 will be in the 'p-v' class ... but maybe thats where we need to start.

I wonder should I start by proposing a set of p-v's that could be used
to describe notebooks and work from there?

I guess the hard part is going to be getting someone (ideally a
manufacturer) to adopt the format - anyone out there working for any of
the big notebook makers? :)

-stephen

-- 
stephen@skynet.ie                             http://www.skynet.ie/~stephen/
From laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it  Mon Jan 29 04:22:31 2007
From: laurentwalter.goix at telecomitalia.it (Goix Laurent Walter)
Date: Mon Jan 29 04:22:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <41D9368A-40FC-4F2D-8194-E0240B76B786@lava.net>
Message-ID: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801ECCD02@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>

Russ, thanks for the pointer!...it seems that ideas fly quite quickly
between Australia and italy ;-)
Your motivations for hMood are namely the same as mine: about semantic
self-expression in blogs [1], improved understanding/readability
(similar to what a smiley could provide...BTW, should we go for a smiley
microformat? ;-)), as well as statistics for example. 
Mood values defined in RFC4480 [2] could be a good starting point...

>From a telco2.0 perspective we're trying to merge as much as we can with
Web2.0 and Microformats are one way of doing it for interfacing to web
content, both for producing and retrieving information.

Mood is widely used in communication systems (IM, Presence, etc) but is
one of the most difficult information to produce/retrieve. Adding such
info to blogs could be an additional source of information to integrate
in Presence, or vice-versa...

Personally i don't restrict Microformats as simple "problem-solvers",
but do envision them as *the* most efficient way of adding semantics to
web content from a practical, yet straightforward manner. 

walter

[1] http://ilps.science.uva.nl/MoodViews/About/
[2] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4480.txt


-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Colin Barrett
Sent: sabato 27 gennaio 2007 7.02
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?

On Jan 26, 2007, at 2:40 AM, Goix Laurent Walter wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat
> that could describe information related to the mood or the activity  
> of a
> person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the  
> web, or
> what they have been doing during the day, so it would be interesting  
> to
> better formalize this information...

How is mood information useful? I can think of some silly examples,  
but I don't really see how knowing what someone's when they wrote a  
particular blog entry would be useful, or what a tool could do with it  
-- remember, microformats are about solving problems.

What *would* be useful would be some way to mark up where you are  
writing a blog entry / news item, etc, from or about. Perhaps hCal has  
the right semantics for this? ("on date X at time Y I was in location  
Z").

I'm not sure if there's much existing semantic HTML for this. My guess  
would be that currently people say "I'm writing from MacWorld" and  
then link MacWorld to the event information. Simply embedding an  
hCalendar item discussing the event probably isn't enough -- someone  
could simply be discussing the event.

Anyone else think this would be an interesting area for further  
research of existing examples -- or even better, have done research in  
this area already?

-Colin
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
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From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jan 29 04:37:02 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jan 29 04:37:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] This Week in Microformats
In-Reply-To: <ntbziOs0aJvFFwAe@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <ntbziOs0aJvFFwAe@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <EB312FC6-1BEA-4BDA-9FB3-B68F384FA600@ben-ward.co.uk>

Hi Andy,

On 28 Jan 2007, at 12:27, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> The last "This Week in Microformats" was dated 17 December 2006  
> (over a
> month ago).
>

Yes it was. I'm somewhat embarrassed by the loss of regularity.

> Will there be another? Is some assistance in compiling it needed?

There definitely will be another ? I've been wanting to get it done  
for weeks now. I'm just terribly disorganised and increasingly tired  
in the evenings. I think that answers the second question; yes, some  
compilation assistance would be good. Your Wiki page is an excellent  
mechanism.

It's my intention that the next edition of TWIM link to the Wiki  
brainstorm page for people to contribute for the next weeks entries,  
but thank you for bringing it to the attention of the community now.

I consider myself duly prodded, so I'll try and get the roundup  
sorted out over the next few days.

Regards,
Ben
From costello at mitre.org  Mon Jan 29 05:45:28 2007
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Mon Jan 29 05:46:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] WikiProject Microformats
In-Reply-To: <YsssS7roYJvFFwGJ@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>

I think adding Microformats to wiki pages is an excellent idea.

"Can" microformats be added to wiki pages?  When I "edit" a wikipedia
page, there are no visible HTML tags to hook Microformats.  Yet,
clearly HTML is present because when I "view" the article I can select
View // Source and see the HTML.

"How" is a microformat added to a wiki page's markup?

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Andy Mabbett
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 7:25 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: [uf-discuss] WikiProject Microformats


I've just launched "WikiProject Microformats"

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats>

to discuss the use of uFs on Wikipedia (and other WikiMedia products)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 25-day week!
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jan 29 06:56:33 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jan 29 06:56:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] WikiProject Microformats
In-Reply-To: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
References: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
Message-ID: <BBA53F8E-C6C9-4385-8500-96EDA7D43F5F@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 29 Jan 2007, at 13:45, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> "How" is a microformat added to a wiki page's markup?

The MediaWiki software allows you to directly type in HTML as well as  
using the Wiki shorthand language. It also has a reusable templating  
system, allowing you to enter data into more complex templates in a  
key-value kind of syntax.

However, in most default installs of MediaWiki I've seen, the ABBR  
tag is stripped out. I expect that's just a setting to be enabled.

Ben
From alexpi at gmail.com  Mon Jan 29 09:04:52 2007
From: alexpi at gmail.com (Alex Piner)
Date: Mon Jan 29 09:04:57 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] LA Meetup, end of the month?
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701261403u5b24af60t15c7a6ea4fecaac4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701252030n51659a1doee02d0a06061a5f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1DEEC3F.860B2%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<d4fa3cf70701261403u5b24af60t15c7a6ea4fecaac4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <737dd5c80701290904t446eba67m89be6616a827467b@mail.gmail.com>

Curious, was there an LA Meetup?
The wiki page just showed planning, but not an event.

Alex
http://augcogblog.com

On 1/26/07, Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/25/07, Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > On 1/25/07 8:30 PM, "Michael McCracken" <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, is anyone still interested in an LA meetup this weekend?
> > > I see 4 names on the wiki page, and a couple of votes for places.
> > >
> > > That ought to be enough for an interesting meeting - who's in?
> >
> > I'm definitely up for it.  A friend of mine told me about the uWink
> > restaurant which sounded quite the techno-geeky interesting place to eat and
> > chat.  Saturday evening is looking like the best time slot for me - and it
> > looked like everyone else on the wiki page could make it then too.
> >
> > More details on the wiki:
> >
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-la-get-together
> >
>
> uWink sounds cool. I'll be there. Any proposals for a time?
>
> PS, If anyone wants to carpool from San Diego or the OC, drop me a line.
>
> -mike
> --
> Michael McCracken
> UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
> research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
> misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From aconbere at gmail.com  Mon Jan 29 13:26:47 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Mon Jan 29 13:26:51 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>

I'm having a difficult time getting dialog started on this, there have
been some suggestions that hReview or hProduct might be better formats
for this, and that with a little work the data presented in most
code-samples on line might be manipulated into those formats.  But
what are other peoples take?

Is the problem well defined?
http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples#The_Problem

What use cases can people think of, are there other examples out there
than what I've come up with (I know there are) are there better ones
than what I've already found (there probably is)?
http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples#Real-World_Examples

What are peoples thoughts on the base-elements given the resources
already collected?
http://microformats.org/wiki/code-brainstorming#Base_Elements

If I'm having a difficult time building dialog does this imply a
general lack of interest, and does a lack of interest in this
community imply a lack of a real world interest in implementing
something like this?

Thanks!
Anders

----------------

The Problem

Source code is published around the web in nonstandard formats, this
makes actual use more difficult as it a) obscures possible licensing
issues,  b) doesn't encapsulate the source code in standard machine
readable formats, and  c) doesn't keep important meta data such as
authors, language types and language version, with the source code in
a machine readable fashion.
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jan 29 13:57:56 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jan 29 13:58:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was:
	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 24 Jan 2007, at 14:51, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> Just a shot in the dark here, but couldn't the <a class="url" ...> be
> assumed to be pointing to the hCard owner's site where it could be
> further assumed that the authoritative hCard would reside? What's
> more, if the href in the <a class="url"...> contained an id for the
> actual hCard in question then you'd be pointing directly to the
> correct hCard (in case the page contains multiple ones, for
> work/home/etc...)
>
> An example would be: <a class="url"
> href="http://mydomain.com/contact.html#myInfo"...>

Whilst the use of fragment URLs is definitely correct as regards  
focusing on specific hCards on a page, you cannot imply authority  
based just on class=url ? it's valid and legal that an hCard can have  
multiple URLs, so which would be authoritative?. On my own site, I  
link to my /about page, my Flickr account, Delicious bookmarks and so  
on, all with class="url" and rel="me".

For my money, John Allsopp's idea to reuse rel="bookmark self" [1]  
makes most sense. As well as being gorgeously consistent with other  
existing microformats, it's also a completely graceful addition to  
existing hCards.

The only concern I can see to check is if this would conflict with  
and break the parsing of hAtom/hReview that already use those rel  
values in combination?

It would take the guesswork out of parsing, whilst publishing useful  
information. Additionally, what do people think to situations where  
an hCard contains a A/@REL="bookmark self" but not @class=url? The  
use case being when I don't regard my /about page as being a relevant  
URL for inclusion in my hCard parsing, but do wish to have it  
followed and parsed as the authoritative version.

Ben

[1]: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007- 
January/008309.html
From timber at lava.net  Mon Jan 29 17:21:27 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Mon Jan 29 17:21:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>

On Jan 29, 2007, at 1:26 PM, anders conbere wrote:

> I'm having a difficult time getting dialog started on this, there have
> been some suggestions that hReview or hProduct might be better formats
> for this, and that with a little work the data presented in most
> code-samples on line might be manipulated into those formats.  But
> what are other peoples take?
>
> Is the problem well defined?
> http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples#The_Problem

I'd say so.

> What use cases can people think of, are there other examples out there
> than what I've come up with (I know there are) are there better ones
> than what I've already found (there probably is)?
> http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples#Real-World_Examples

I have been posting some code listings on my blog recently. It would  
be really nice to have these sections identified (so then a source  
coloring tool could identify them and color them)
<pre><code>
code
</code></pre>
is the awful HTML I have been using. It would be nice to have  
something more semantic to put up, particularly with regards to  
licensing -- Some of the code snippets are public domain, some are  
GPL, and I don't really have any way of noting this currently.

Other blogs, particularly programming ones, would be excellent places  
to look for examples.

> What are peoples thoughts on the base-elements given the resources
> already collected?
> http://microformats.org/wiki/code-brainstorming#Base_Elements
>
> If I'm having a difficult time building dialog does this imply a
> general lack of interest, and does a lack of interest in this
> community imply a lack of a real world interest in implementing
> something like this?

It might not hurt to both collect more examples and, after looking at  
that writing a strawman proposal.

Judging by the number of times this same "am I heading in the right  
direction or should I abandon this" email has been posted to this  
list, it seems that giving feedback to infant ufs is something we need  
to work on. Any suggestions?

> Thanks!
> Anders
>
> ----------------
>
> The Problem
>
> Source code is published around the web in nonstandard formats, this
> makes actual use more difficult as it a) obscures possible licensing
> issues,  b) doesn't encapsulate the source code in standard machine
> readable formats, and  c) doesn't keep important meta data such as
> authors, language types and language version, with the source code in
> a machine readable fashion.
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From john at westciv.com  Mon Jan 29 17:50:41 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Mon Jan 29 17:50:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was:
	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>

Ben,

> For my money, John Allsopp's idea to reuse rel="bookmark self" [1]  
> makes most sense. As well as being gorgeously consistent with other  
> existing microformats, it's also a completely graceful addition to  
> existing hCards.

thanks ;-)

There's a lot of goodness to reuse from other ufs, for sure.

> The only concern I can see to check is if this would conflict with  
> and break the parsing of hAtom/hReview that already use those rel  
> values in combination?

When rel-license is inside an hReview, it is taken to be associated  
with the review,  rather than the larger fragment it would otherwise  
be associated with (e.g. post or page)

I wonder whether that makes sense more generally - things apply at  
the finest level of granularity at which it mkes sense - so  
rel="bookmark self" applies to the microformatted content it is most  
directly descended from.
Are there reasons people think this is a bad idea?
An analogy again is categories in hAtom

You can have either feed categories or entry categories. Both are  
encoded using rel-tag. The difference is that entry categories are  
inside the hentry element, while feed categories are in the hFeed  
element (but not in the hEntry element). The point is that hEntry  
elements descend from hFeed elements, so all entry categories are  
inside an hFeed element.

Indeed, Brian Suda, Michael Kaply, or someone else who does a bit of  
parsing might weigh in on whether or not this is an implicit  
assumption they make more generally with their parsers, or whether it  
might become an explicit convention - to try and formulate it (badly)

"where a feature of microformats may apply to more than one element  
in a descendent tree, it is associated with the element which most  
directly contains it ."

> It would take the guesswork out of parsing, whilst publishing  
> useful information. Additionally, what do people think to  
> situations where an hCard contains a A/@REL="bookmark self" but not  
> @class=url? The use case being when I don't regard my /about page  
> as being a relevant URL for inclusion in my hCard parsing, but do  
> wish to have it followed and parsed as the authoritative version.

Not sure whether this is straying into the 20% part of the problem  
space? Just my initial response, with little real thought ;-)

john
From derrick at pallas.us  Mon Jan 29 21:02:50 2007
From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas)
Date: Mon Jan 29 21:04:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards
In-Reply-To: <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <45BED17A.901@pallas.us>

John Allsopp wrote:
>
> I wonder whether that makes sense more generally - things apply at the 
> finest level of granularity at which it mkes sense - so rel="bookmark 
> self" applies to the microformatted content it is most directly 
> descended from.
> Are there reasons people think this is a bad idea?
>
> "where a feature of microformats may apply to more than one element in 
> a descendent tree, it is associated with the element which most 
> directly contains it ."

Personally, I think this is a bad idea; I was actually talking with Ben 
West at work today about this very issue. For the sake of argument, say 
hFoo --- which I decide to implement --- can contain rel-tag without 
marking it in any other way. Now a new format, hBar, comes along and it 
may contain rel-tag without marking it in any way; maybe I don't know 
about hBar, don't care about hBar, or don't want to implement hBar. What 
if my hFoo contains an hBar? In that case,

  <div class="hFoo">
    <span class="hBar">
      <a href="http://examples.com/tag/myTag" rel="tag">Text</a>
    </span>
  </div>

causes a problem (given the suggestion above) because the rel-tag should 
only apply to hBar but without the hFoo parser knowing about hBar (which 
may be unreasonable) it will grab the rel-tag as well. A better solution 
is what hCard does; from what I understand, using rel-tag with category 
still requires you to say @class="category". This, incidentally, can 
cause a name-space problem: it means that to keep hBar and hFoo 
unambiguous, one needs to define slightly different rel-tag properties 
for each.

There are two simple solutions: make features only apply to the element 
in which they exist (which makes them non-features) or let features 
apply to any format that can grok the feature, ignoring containers. 
There are three complex solutions: use name-spaces for disambiguation, 
use other naming triks to figure out which feature apply to which 
container (this could get messy quickly), or require parsers for one 
format to know about all other top level containers (which seems bad for 
compatibility).

~D

From aconbere at gmail.com  Mon Jan 29 22:32:08 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Mon Jan 29 22:32:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701292232y3c87da6eye341e6d485ae4ab7@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/29/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> On Jan 29, 2007, at 1:26 PM, anders conbere wrote:
>
> > I'm having a difficult time getting dialog started on this, there have
> > been some suggestions that hReview or hProduct might be better formats
> > for this, and that with a little work the data presented in most
> > code-samples on line might be manipulated into those formats.  But
> > what are other peoples take?
> >
> > Is the problem well defined?
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples#The_Problem
>
> I'd say so.
>
> > What use cases can people think of, are there other examples out there
> > than what I've come up with (I know there are) are there better ones
> > than what I've already found (there probably is)?
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples#Real-World_Examples
>
> I have been posting some code listings on my blog recently. It would
> be really nice to have these sections identified (so then a source
> coloring tool could identify them and color them)
> <pre><code>
> code
> </code></pre>
> is the awful HTML I have been using. It would be nice to have
> something more semantic to put up, particularly with regards to
> licensing -- Some of the code snippets are public domain, some are
> GPL, and I don't really have any way of noting this currently.
>

This was the big motivator for me, along with knowing the programing
language and having the ability to easily scrape and save the source
code.

> Other blogs, particularly programming ones, would be excellent places
> to look for examples.
>
> > What are peoples thoughts on the base-elements given the resources
> > already collected?
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/code-brainstorming#Base_Elements
> >
> > If I'm having a difficult time building dialog does this imply a
> > general lack of interest, and does a lack of interest in this
> > community imply a lack of a real world interest in implementing
> > something like this?
>
> It might not hurt to both collect more examples and, after looking at
> that writing a strawman proposal.

I guess I'll keep digging up more examples and posting them.  I don't
suppose it could hurt.

>
> Judging by the number of times this same "am I heading in the right
> direction or should I abandon this" email has been posted to this
> list, it seems that giving feedback to infant ufs is something we need
> to work on. Any suggestions?

I certainly feel like I'm going at this alone.  It's hard to get my
friend interested enough to post criticisms, and it's hard to even
find someone around here to talk about what needs to happen, what
they've learned from past proposals.

>
> > Thanks!
> > Anders
> >
> > ----------------
> >
> > The Problem
> >
> > Source code is published around the web in nonstandard formats, this
> > makes actual use more difficult as it a) obscures possible licensing
> > issues,  b) doesn't encapsulate the source code in standard machine
> > readable formats, and  c) doesn't keep important meta data such as
> > authors, language types and language version, with the source code in
> > a machine readable fashion.
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Jan 30 01:55:01 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Jan 30 01:55:04 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> I have been posting some code listings on my blog recently. It would
> be really nice to have these sections identified (so then a source
> coloring tool could identify them and color them)
> <pre><code>
> code
> </code></pre>
> is the awful HTML I have been using. It would be nice to have
> something more semantic to put up, particularly with regards to
> licensing -- Some of the code snippets are public domain, some are
> GPL, and I don't really have any way of noting this currently.

In a blog context, I've found that common RSS or Atom tools don't do
well at retaining the whitespace in posts so relying on PRE isn't
foolproof, even though it makes sense.

I've ended up entity-encoding and adding <br /> to my code examples
when I use them.  I'm normally averse to <br /> but I think that code
listings are one of the few areas where they make sense.

This isn't particularly structured stuff, I'll try and tidy it up for
the wiki, but anecdotally I'd expect the following sorts of things:

* The language the code is written in.

The HTML @lang attribute seems to be vaguely relevant.  A look at
RFC1766[1] suggests the use of x-foo values for 'unusual' languages,
the example given being x-klingon.  Would @lang="x-PHP" be considered
abuse?

* The origin of the code

Most code  displayed on the web (again this is anecdotal) is in the
form of snippets.  Some reference to the complete listing if available
would seem to be in order.  Is this a possible extension/application
for hCite?  At the very least the semantics would be similar.

* Authorship (hCard), licence details (@rel="licence"?  May be scope issues)

-Ciaran

[1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1766.txt
From aconbere at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 07:34:43 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Tue Jan 30 07:34:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701300734v44bda029nfad0165e29bf6cac@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Ciaran McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> wrote:
> On 1/30/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> > I have been posting some code listings on my blog recently. It would
> > be really nice to have these sections identified (so then a source
> > coloring tool could identify them and color them)
> > <pre><code>
> > code
> > </code></pre>
> > is the awful HTML I have been using. It would be nice to have
> > something more semantic to put up, particularly with regards to
> > licensing -- Some of the code snippets are public domain, some are
> > GPL, and I don't really have any way of noting this currently.
>
> In a blog context, I've found that common RSS or Atom tools don't do
> well at retaining the whitespace in posts so relying on PRE isn't
> foolproof, even though it makes sense.
>
> I've ended up entity-encoding and adding <br /> to my code examples
> when I use them.  I'm normally averse to <br /> but I think that code
> listings are one of the few areas where they make sense.

I would consider the rss and atom tools be not in accordance with the
(x)html specs on this one.  And I believe that muddying the code with
non-semantic tags makes is much more difficult to digest. As I
suggested earlier, while these tags are fine for rendered (x)html,
most of the digestion of microformats is done on a source code level.
The result of that is that unnecessary tags found inside of the source
code would either have to be stripped, or the code would have to be
rendered by the machine doing the digesting.  If I list of allowed
tags was decided upon I don't suppose stripping would be that big of a
deal, but at least for the first proposal I think that sticking with
plain-text is best.

>
> This isn't particularly structured stuff, I'll try and tidy it up for
> the wiki, but anecdotally I'd expect the following sorts of things:
>
> * The language the code is written in.
>
> The HTML @lang attribute seems to be vaguely relevant.  A look at
> RFC1766[1] suggests the use of x-foo values for 'unusual' languages,
> the example given being x-klingon.  Would @lang="x-PHP" be considered
> abuse?

>From the RFC

2.1.  Meaning of the language tag

"The language tag always defines a language as spoken (or written) by
human beings for communication of information to other human beings.
Computer languages are explicitly excluded."

Unfortunately it gives no reference as to what _should_ be done with
computer languages.

>
> * The origin of the code
>
> Most code  displayed on the web (again this is anecdotal) is in the
> form of snippets.  Some reference to the complete listing if available
> would seem to be in order.  Is this a possible extension/application
> for hCite?  At the very least the semantics would be similar.

Perhaps the "origin url" could be used either to point to the
originating article, the full listing or various other sources that
best match "where this snippet or example originated".

>
> * Authorship (hCard), licence details (@rel="licence"?  May be scope issues)
>
> -Ciaran
>
> [1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1766.txt
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Jan 30 07:55:02 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Jan 30 07:55:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701300734v44bda029nfad0165e29bf6cac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701300734v44bda029nfad0165e29bf6cac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701300755m1f5e219ch150cc5f54c620f7f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, anders conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would consider the rss and atom tools be not in accordance with the
> (x)html specs on this one.  And I believe that muddying the code with
> non-semantic tags makes is much more difficult to digest.

I'd argue that <br /> does have semantics for a number of languages, actually!

> "The language tag always defines a language as spoken (or written) by
> human beings for communication of information to other human beings.
> Computer languages are explicitly excluded."

Ah, well spotted.  Shame!

-Ciaran McNulty
From charles.roper at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 09:04:19 2007
From: charles.roper at gmail.com (Charles Roper)
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:04:44 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process
Message-ID: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>

I'm very interested in the Species microformat, but the process seems
to have stalled and I just wanted to poll opinion here as to why that
might be. Is it due to a lack of demand? It seems that the successful
microformats have been developed, in the main, by web designers and
developers for web designers and developers. Could it be that web
designers and developers of the microformats community do not perceive
the value of a species microformat in the same way that they can see
the value of, say, hCard, hReview, XFN, etc. The more successful
microformats seem to be riding on the back of the "social web"
zeitgeist, with many (most?) being used in this kind of context. I
don't see species as being of particular interest to the bloggers and
the other social-networking, mashup-making, digerati of current times.
Is appealing to this demographic the key in getting a microformat
developed? I'd appreciate the view of people in this community.

I also wanted to ask about the fundamental microformat principle of
"paving the cowpaths" in relation to hCard. It seems to me that hCard
was derived from vCard rather than being based on existing markup
practice. How does this square up with the cowpaths philosophy?

This brings me to a question about Species. The Species proposal
doesn't really reflect current mark-up practice but instead represents
what might be a good way of doing things in the future if authors were
to start using it. The vocabulary in the proposal isn't plucked out of
thin-air, though; it is taken from the taxonomic hierarchy as used by
biologists. It seems to be modelled on hCard in this respect, hence my
cowpaths question. My own feeling is that the current proposal is too
complex. The current usage patterns as far as I can see (in the
majority of cases) either have species names as plain text or
marked-up with simple <strong> tags, or <em> or <i>. However, I'm not
adverse to having a rich vocabulary of class names to call on should I
need them (which 9 times out of 10 I won't), as long as a species name
can still be marked-up very simply. This is similar to the way in
which hCard has a rich vocabulary, but can still be very simple.

-- 
Charles Roper
www.sxbrc.org.uk
From bewest at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 09:34:06 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:34:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process
In-Reply-To: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Charles Roper <charles.roper@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm very interested in the Species microformat, but the process seems
> to have stalled and I just wanted to poll opinion here as to why that
> might be. Is it due to a lack of demand?

Charles, I don't know about demand, but I do know that many people
have stepped up to participate in gathering research and analysis for
species.  Many of them have also been driven away.  To be honest, the
use case for the species microformat is a little bit weak.  It could
be that if there is a lack of demand, it is due to the weak use case
and the gap between the research and the proposal.  (The use case
essentially describes a hyperlinking behaviour that is already present
and used on many sites.) This is just my own opinion though.

> It seems that the successful
> microformats have been developed, in the main, by web designers and
> developers for web designers and developers. Could it be that web
> designers and developers of the microformats community do not perceive
> the value of a species microformat in the same way that they can see
> the value of, say, hCard, hReview, XFN, etc. The more successful
> microformats seem to be riding on the back of the "social web"
> zeitgeist, with many (most?) being used in this kind of context. I
> don't see species as being of particular interest to the bloggers and
> the other social-networking, mashup-making, digerati of current times.
> Is appealing to this demographic the key in getting a microformat
> developed? I'd appreciate the view of people in this community.
>

If I think I know what you mean here, I disagree a bit.  Who, what,
when, how, where are all answered by these microformats.  They are
extremely common, and are probably the first data types to be
represented by any new technology.  For example: how old is the
calendar compared to taxonomy? hcard describes "who", xfn describes
"how are they related", hcalendar describes "when".... Again, this is
my own opinion, and I don't have any evidence.

> I also wanted to ask about the fundamental microformat principle of
> "paving the cowpaths" in relation to hCard. It seems to me that hCard
> was derived from vCard rather than being based on existing markup
> practice. How does this square up with the cowpaths philosophy?
>
I'll leave this to others.  However, I do think the kind of path vcard
took is qualitatively different than the one species is taking.

> This brings me to a question about Species. The Species proposal
> doesn't really reflect current mark-up practice but instead represents
> what might be a good way of doing things in the future if authors were
> to start using it.

I agree completely, and I think this is a problem with the current
effort, but it's one that is solveable.

> The vocabulary in the proposal isn't plucked out of
> thin-air, though; it is taken from the taxonomic hierarchy as used by
> biologists. It seems to be modelled on hCard in this respect, hence my
> cowpaths question. My own feeling is that the current proposal is too
> complex. The current usage patterns as far as I can see (in the
> majority of cases) either have species names as plain text or
> marked-up with simple <strong> tags, or <em> or <i>. However, I'm not
> adverse to having a rich vocabulary of class names to call on should I
> need them (which 9 times out of 10 I won't), as long as a species name
> can still be marked-up very simply. This is similar to the way in
> which hCard has a rich vocabulary, but can still be very simple.
>

Charles, this is a great analysis.  This matches my observings, at
<http://microformats.org/wiki/species-examples-regrouped>.  I think
the format would benefit greatly from taking a fresh look at the
examples collected.  It look to me like there should be two pieces.
One should be the way authors mention species in text, the other
should be how authoritative sources represent the information about a
species.  In any case, the first behaviour can be accomplished,
perhaps entirely, by using tagging techniques.  Perhaps the in-depth
use of unambiguous names can be used by a second format intended for
publishers of the authoritative information.

Thanks,
Ben West
From steveivy at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 11:03:34 2007
From: steveivy at gmail.com (Steve Ivy)
Date: Tue Jan 30 11:03:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Looking for specific sugegstions for uF subscribable
	sites
Message-ID: <d9a04aea0701301103k100a2689rdba42808e5a662fb@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm working on a lifestream/feed aggregator app and I'm adding uF
support. I've looked through some of the *-example-in-the-wild pages
on the wiki, but I wanted to open it up here.

If there are any sites that offer uF-formatted subscribable pages, I'm
looking for good samples to test against. I'm starting with hAtom and
hReview, but please let me know about any you'd like to be able to
subscribe to.

You can respond here, or email me at steveivy@gmail.com

Thanks!

-- 
Steve Ivy
http://redmonk.net
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 11:50:11 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Tue Jan 30 11:50:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was:
	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I certainly am coming to the party late.

I actually started a post on this topic over a week ago -- and
absentmindedly hadn't checked on this list first before posting and
therefore published without the benefit of this discussion (I can hear
Tantek chiding me) but nonetheless, as the first half of a two-part
piece of transcending social networks (I have to write up the second
half still) I wrote this:

Scoping XFN and identifying authoritative hcards
<http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/01/29/scoping-xfn-and-identifying-definitive-hcards/>

I pretty much came up with a very similar proposal for handling this
issue, though from the standpoint of XFN-links, and I think that
John's suggestion is very good, though instead of using "bookmark
self" might suggest "me self" for identifying the One True Hcard:

<div class="vcard" id="vcard">
  <address><a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard" class="fn
url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>
  <div class="org">Citizen Agency</a>
  ...
</div>

That way, any hcard that links to me at
http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard will find a self-referencing
hcard which serves as the proverbial "end of the road". I prefer "self
me" because of the potential conflict of embedding this kind of hcard
in other formats, as has been suggested could be an issue...

The use of the <address> tag is also important, as it signifies with
additional certainty that the author of the page own the hcards --
making it doubly authoritative.

Thus if you can find an object at "address a[rel~=self].url", there's
good chance you've got something pretty solid.

Thoughts? (I've also updated my post to reflect John's suggestion)

Chris

On 1/29/07, John Allsopp <john@westciv.com> wrote:
> Ben,
>
> > For my money, John Allsopp's idea to reuse rel="bookmark self" [1]
> > makes most sense. As well as being gorgeously consistent with other
> > existing microformats, it's also a completely graceful addition to
> > existing hCards.
>
> thanks ;-)
>
> There's a lot of goodness to reuse from other ufs, for sure.
>
> > The only concern I can see to check is if this would conflict with
> > and break the parsing of hAtom/hReview that already use those rel
> > values in combination?
>
> When rel-license is inside an hReview, it is taken to be associated
> with the review,  rather than the larger fragment it would otherwise
> be associated with (e.g. post or page)
>
> I wonder whether that makes sense more generally - things apply at
> the finest level of granularity at which it mkes sense - so
> rel="bookmark self" applies to the microformatted content it is most
> directly descended from.
> Are there reasons people think this is a bad idea?
> An analogy again is categories in hAtom
>
> You can have either feed categories or entry categories. Both are
> encoded using rel-tag. The difference is that entry categories are
> inside the hentry element, while feed categories are in the hFeed
> element (but not in the hEntry element). The point is that hEntry
> elements descend from hFeed elements, so all entry categories are
> inside an hFeed element.
>
> Indeed, Brian Suda, Michael Kaply, or someone else who does a bit of
> parsing might weigh in on whether or not this is an implicit
> assumption they make more generally with their parsers, or whether it
> might become an explicit convention - to try and formulate it (badly)
>
> "where a feature of microformats may apply to more than one element
> in a descendent tree, it is associated with the element which most
> directly contains it ."
>
> > It would take the guesswork out of parsing, whilst publishing
> > useful information. Additionally, what do people think to
> > situations where an hCard contains a A/@REL="bookmark self" but not
> > @class=url? The use case being when I don't regard my /about page
> > as being a relevant URL for inclusion in my hCard parsing, but do
> > wish to have it followed and parsed as the authoritative version.
>
> Not sure whether this is straying into the 20% part of the problem
> space? Just my initial response, with little real thought ;-)
>
> john
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From john at westciv.com  Tue Jan 30 14:28:49 2007
From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp)
Date: Tue Jan 30 14:28:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards (was:
	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>

Chris,

(all the following simply thoughts in the spirit of brainstorming,  
rather than any particular argument in favour of my original suggestion)

> I pretty much came up with a very similar proposal for handling this
> issue, though from the standpoint of XFN-links, and I think that
> John's suggestion is very good, though instead of using "bookmark
> self" might suggest "me self" for identifying the One True Hcard:
>
> <div class="vcard" id="vcard">
>  <address><a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard" class="fn
> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>
>  <div class="org">Citizen Agency</a>
>  ...
> </div>

I wonder whether hAtom had predated XFN, self instead of me would  
have been chosen for the identity value?

The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is "self: the  
feed itself". The term "the" seems to indicate "definitiveness". So,  
I was initially going to argue that "self me" was tautological, but  
in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of  
bookmark is probably tautological.

So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, and perhaps also suggest that  
for hReview simply a rel value of "self" be required for the  
permalink, for consistency.

> The use of the <address> tag is also important, as it signifies with
> additional certainty that the author of the page own the hcards --
> making it doubly authoritative.

Thats true. But just to note (as I am sure you know) that as address  
is an inline element, this enforces certain contraints on its  
descendents - they al have to be inline elements.

> Thus if you can find an object at "address a[rel~=self].url", there's
> good chance you've got something pretty solid.
>
> Thoughts? (I've also updated my post to reflect John's suggestion)

I suggest the correct use of self is definitive, so address, while  
perhaps advisable, doesn't need to be required.

j

>
> Chris
>
> On 1/29/07, John Allsopp <john@westciv.com> wrote:
>> Ben,
>>
>> > For my money, John Allsopp's idea to reuse rel="bookmark self" [1]
>> > makes most sense. As well as being gorgeously consistent with other
>> > existing microformats, it's also a completely graceful addition to
>> > existing hCards.
>>
>> thanks ;-)
>>
>> There's a lot of goodness to reuse from other ufs, for sure.
>>
>> > The only concern I can see to check is if this would conflict with
>> > and break the parsing of hAtom/hReview that already use those rel
>> > values in combination?
>>
>> When rel-license is inside an hReview, it is taken to be associated
>> with the review,  rather than the larger fragment it would otherwise
>> be associated with (e.g. post or page)
>>
>> I wonder whether that makes sense more generally - things apply at
>> the finest level of granularity at which it mkes sense - so
>> rel="bookmark self" applies to the microformatted content it is most
>> directly descended from.
>> Are there reasons people think this is a bad idea?
>> An analogy again is categories in hAtom
>>
>> You can have either feed categories or entry categories. Both are
>> encoded using rel-tag. The difference is that entry categories are
>> inside the hentry element, while feed categories are in the hFeed
>> element (but not in the hEntry element). The point is that hEntry
>> elements descend from hFeed elements, so all entry categories are
>> inside an hFeed element.
>>
>> Indeed, Brian Suda, Michael Kaply, or someone else who does a bit of
>> parsing might weigh in on whether or not this is an implicit
>> assumption they make more generally with their parsers, or whether it
>> might become an explicit convention - to try and formulate it (badly)
>>
>> "where a feature of microformats may apply to more than one element
>> in a descendent tree, it is associated with the element which most
>> directly contains it ."
>>
>> > It would take the guesswork out of parsing, whilst publishing
>> > useful information. Additionally, what do people think to
>> > situations where an hCard contains a A/@REL="bookmark self" but not
>> > @class=url? The use case being when I don't regard my /about page
>> > as being a relevant URL for inclusion in my hCard parsing, but do
>> > wish to have it followed and parsed as the authoritative version.
>>
>> Not sure whether this is straying into the 20% part of the problem
>> space? Just my initial response, with little real thought ;-)
>>
>> john
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Tue Jan 30 16:06:58 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Tue Jan 30 16:07:08 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard {was:
	Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards
	(was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>

> Chris Messina:
>> <div class="vcard" id="vcard">
>>  <address><a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard" class="fn
>> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>
>>  <div class="org">Citizen Agency</a>
>>  ...
>> </div>
>>

John Allsopp:
> The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is "self: the  
> feed itself". The term "the" seems to indicate "definitiveness".  
> So, I was initially going to argue that "self me" was tautological,  
> but in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of  
> bookmark is probably tautological.
>
> So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, [?]

+1 from me as well.

Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems from anyone?

Ben

From steveivy at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 16:32:17 2007
From: steveivy at gmail.com (Steve Ivy)
Date: Tue Jan 30 16:32:19 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <d9a04aea0701301632o12ceb6cdp8afea403bb9d741e@mail.gmail.com>

+1 from me.

On 1/30/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> > Chris Messina:
> >> <div class="vcard" id="vcard">
> >>  <address><a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard" class="fn
> >> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>
> >>  <div class="org">Citizen Agency</a>
> >>  ...
> >> </div>
> >>
>
> John Allsopp:
> > The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is "self: the
> > feed itself". The term "the" seems to indicate "definitiveness".
> > So, I was initially going to argue that "self me" was tautological,
> > but in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of
> > bookmark is probably tautological.
> >
> > So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, [?]
>
> +1 from me as well.
>
> Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems from anyone?
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Steve Ivy
http://redmonk.net

From joe at andrieu.net  Tue Jan 30 16:59:34 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Tue Jan 30 16:59:35 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was:Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards(was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <006d01c744d3$13f610f0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome>

Ben Ward wrote: (Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an 
 authoritative hCard {was:Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative 
 hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards(was: Search on CSS element)]}
 
> > Chris Messina:
> >> <div class="vcard" id="vcard">
> >>  <address><a 
> href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard" class="fn 
> >> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>  <div 
> >> class="org">Citizen Agency</a>  ...
> >> </div>
>
> +1 from me as well.
> 
> Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems 
> from anyone?

+1 from me. It addresses the issues I brought up quite nicely.

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651

From horsepigcow at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 17:58:24 2007
From: horsepigcow at gmail.com (Tara Hunt)
Date: Tue Jan 30 17:58:27 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was:Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards(was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <006d01c744d3$13f610f0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome>
References: <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<006d01c744d3$13f610f0$0301a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <310024cb0701301758o212f02ebmff185f7611e987bd@mail.gmail.com>

+1 from me, too

On 1/30/07, Joe Andrieu <joe@andrieu.net> wrote:
> Ben Ward wrote: (Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an
>  authoritative hCard {was:Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative
>  hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards(was: Search on CSS element)]}
>
> > > Chris Messina:
> > >> <div class="vcard" id="vcard">
> > >>  <address><a
> > href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard" class="fn
> > >> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>  <div
> > >> class="org">Citizen Agency</a>  ...
> > >> </div>
> >
> > +1 from me as well.
> >
> > Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems
> > from anyone?
>
> +1 from me. It addresses the issues I brought up quite nicely.
>
> -j
>
> --
> Joe Andrieu
> joe@andrieu.net
> +1 (805) 705-8651
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>



-- 
Sincerely,

Tara
-----------------------
tara 'miss rogue' hunt
agent provocateur
Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com)
blog: www.horsepigcow.com
phone: 415-694-1951
fax: 415-727-5335
From chris.messina at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 23:42:39 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Tue Jan 30 23:42:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Looking for specific sugegstions for uF subscribable
	sites
In-Reply-To: <d9a04aea0701301103k100a2689rdba42808e5a662fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9a04aea0701301103k100a2689rdba42808e5a662fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0701302342u6f30ab71kdfa0e70e08ff331d@mail.gmail.com>

My lifestream, based on Jeremy Keith's, is here:

http://factoryjoe.com/stream

Also, Ma.gnolia (rel=client) has tons of microformats baked in.

Chris

On 1/30/07, Steve Ivy <steveivy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm working on a lifestream/feed aggregator app and I'm adding uF
> support. I've looked through some of the *-example-in-the-wild pages
> on the wiki, but I wanted to open it up here.
>
> If there are any sites that offer uF-formatted subscribable pages, I'm
> looking for good samples to test against. I'm starting with hAtom and
> hReview, but please let me know about any you'd like to be able to
> subscribe to.
>
> You can respond here, or email me at steveivy@gmail.com
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Steve Ivy
> http://redmonk.net
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:42:17 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan 31 00:42:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat proposal: dependancy graphs (for
	software)
In-Reply-To: <45BBAE0D.7060704@pallas.us>
References: <45BBAE0D.7060704@pallas.us>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701310042v66674f29m142be6ab1c65bb05@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Derrick,

I think you are on the right track with regard to process here.  I
especially liked the in-depth treatment of the problem statement, with
specific examples that came in addition to  (instead of soley) your
own frustrations.  It also seems like you've looked over how to gather
examples, so I'd like to encourage you to continue with this effort.

There are a few things I'm a little concerned about.  For example, who
would consume this microformat?  Many of the existing microformats
have centered around end-users as potential consumers.  However, I'm
not sure the "average" person has an interest in consuming software
information.  I'm not sure what impact this might have on the would be
creation and subsequent adoption of your proposal.  Documenting and
codifying existing publishing practices is a worthwhile effort, so it
may not matter.

You seemed to hint on how this technique might be adapted to other
areas in some of our hallway conversations.  Are there other practical
problems that might be solved on a lower level, or would this
technique map directly into other problem domains?

I also liked how you mentioned how your proposed microformat would
work in conjunction with other microformats to compose a larger
system.  I'd like to hear more about this vision because it sounds
interesting, and may inform developments in other microformats, or
inspire would-be extension authors.

Would you mind starting a wiki page, as described in the process?
<http://microformats.org/wiki/process>.  What do you think the name
should be?  Something like versioning-examples?
softwaredependency-examples? version-resolution-examples?  What would
the most apropriate name be?

http://kernel.org/
* uses <link> to provide RSS feed
*   <div id="versions"> uses word "versions"
* uses links to deliverable with version string as anchor text
* uses a kind of "product/software id" (my made up term) <table
class="kver"> to identify the thing being described
* includes a description of the software
* includes the date published
* uses keywords as anchor text to perform operations or view
additional features.  for example, V for view diff, changelog to see
the changelog, etc...

http://libpng.org/pub/png/libpng.html
* <LINK REV="made" HREF="http://pobox.com/~newt/greg_contact.html">
Interesting.  "made by "his guy" :-).  hcard would seem to be a
perfect fit here.
* <B>libpng</B>  name of software in an element
* <A HREF=
"http://libpng.sourceforge.net/">http://libpng.sourceforge.net/</A>
link to homepage
* requires <B>zlib 1.0.4</B>
or later (<B>1.2.3</B> or <B>1.1.4</B> lossy markup of requirements
* The current public release, <B>libpng 1.2.15</B> again, lossy markup
* includes a description of the software
* <B>libpng 1.2.12</B> another mention of the software in it's own element
* the site contains links to test suites, documentation, and download links
* also includes a description of how to verify the contents
* lots of content about the software, but very little semantic markup.
 good example: easy to see how some semantic techniques would help.
would marking this up using hatom help at all?

http://freshmeat.net/projects/libvc/
* uses <link> to an rss feed
* links to other project areas... issue tracking, forums etc...
* branch info published
* date added, created, modified all published
* description
* author
* "trove" categories
* might list dependencies, but there are none for this particular example
* stats listed: vitality, popularity, downloads, graphs...
* hits, subscribers
* other projects depending on this one are listed
* license published
* download links provided
* no semantic markup present.

http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/fcgi/
* <link> and <meta> used to convey authorship, "made", author, and
some other attributes: search, index, home, glossary
* interesting, there is some semantic html...
<p class="caption">fcgi / 0.8.7</p>
<table class="entry">
* key value pairs (in a table) for: short description, category,
status, created, last update, owner, homepage, download, source
vieweing, license, dependency, versions as link text to the
deliverable with date published outside the link
* uses address to list contact for the document, and other uses of
semantic html such as class names "footer", "header", and "caption".
Shows a receptivity to semantic techniques as well as confirming the
list of properties published by software vendors.

http://www.gentoo-portage.com/dev-lang/erlang/Dep#ptabs
* <link> to rss feed
* <body id="gentoo-portage"> intended consumer published in markup
* links to other project areas
* <h2 id="packageid">dev-lang/erlang </h2> product name
* <h5> used for description
* <div id="website_list"><ul>...</ul></div> used to list project websites
* <div id="ebuild_list"><ul>... used for consumer-specific parameters
* "view" and "download" links.
* <h3>Runtime Dependencies</h3> dependencies published using <div
class="depbox with links.
* >=<a href="/dev-lang/perl">dev-lang/perl</a>-5.6.1
* the previous behaviour is used for each version of the published software
Lots of semantic html.  Could be clues for possibles property names.

There are a couple of things that jump out at me.  There are varying
amounts of information published.  The most common is the name of the
software, the current version, the link to download, and some other
attributes.  It would be a good idea to capture all of this on the
examples page.  I would encourage others to also take a look at the
source code, note what's being published along with any semantic
techniques present in order to ensure that I haven't missed or
misrepresented anything.

It would also be beneficial for anyone interested in this activity to
continue finding more examples, and applying the same kind of analysis
to them.

It's interesting how some of the other microformats might be applied
to this problem.  I noticed a lot of <link>'s to RSS feeds.  If they
are publishing this as RSS, would publishing it with hatom make sense?
 What would be missing?

I'm vaguely aware of a format called DOAP, which freshmeat apparently
uses.  The python cheeseshop also uses it, and I wonder if sourceforge
or tigris uses it.  DOAP lives at <http://usefulinc.com/doap/>.  I
wonder if there are lessons that can be learned from the DOAP effort,
and if any of that work can be re-used.  If there are conflicts in the
plurality of publishing behaviours and the DOAP model, I suspect the
publishing behaviour should take precedence, but that's my opinion.

Thanks,
Ben West

On 1/27/07, Derrick Lyndon Pallas <derrick@pallas.us> wrote:
> I'm interested in feedback on the following idea. (Right now, I'm in the
> process of developing a corpus of live examples but that's not what I'm
> asking for.)
>
> Essentially: software is everywhere. Because it is complex, it is
> modularized. This has the effect that not every developer will be on the
> same page. Changes can happen in a kernel that bubble up through the
> standard library into a maze of support libraries. Hopefully, separation
> of concerns and good interface design have dampened negative effects but
> there can be subtle, negative consequences.
>
> For example, a change in the standard library can break a bad practice
> in libfoo (ignoring some return value) which causes an array bounds
> problem in libbar. Since your application uses libbar and there is no
> direct connect to libfoo, how do you know that you need to upgrade to a
> newer version of libfoo? This is especially a problem if libbar doesn't
> need to be recompiled (it retains binary compatibility with libfoo) or
> if libfoo or libbar are optional.
>
> The same problem from the other direction is directed, acyclic
> dependency graphs. If I am building a new application from scratch, how
> do I know what libraries are possible? I could go to the web page for
> ImageMagick only to learn that I need a new version of libpng. On the
> same token, libpng needs an updated version of libz. And libz doesn't
> like my old crufty compiler. Add to that the complexity that I really
> just want to install RMagick (a Ruby interface to *Magick) which can use
> either ImageMagick or GraphicsMagick (though the interface changes in
> subtle ways depending on which library you choose) and these choices
> interact with my version of Ruby, all of the modules I use in Ruby, any
> code they link in, and the compilers for that code, ad infinitum.
> Suddenly I've got 40 browser tabs open and still no graphics library.
>
> The preceding paragraph is a (sad but) true story. Part of the problem
> had to do with the fact that I didn't own the system and the system had
> "stable" versions of packages on it, as defined by the Fedora Core team.
> Right now, there are ways to do these builds; whether you're using
> binaries (apt-get, yum, rpm) or source (emerge, srpm, *-src), you have
> to go through a clearing house. Someone took the time to compile
> binaries or repackage source trees and write down what needed what.
>
> But the fact is all of this information is already on the homepage for
> most software. Current aggregators rely on the author(s) submitting this
> information manually. Furthermore, commercial packages don't normally
> submit product information to sites like FreshMeat, SourceForge, or any
> language-specific repository (CPAN, PEAR).
>
> Because the information (version, dependency, package URLs, bug alerts)
> is already there (see below) it should be fairly straight-forward to
> figure out what people already do and "semantic it up."
>
> Take a look at:
>  * http://kernel.org/
>  * http://libpng.org/pub/png/libpng.html
>  * http://freshmeat.net/projects/libvc/
>  * http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/fcgi/
>  * http://www.gentoo-portage.com/dev-lang/erlang/Dep#ptabs
>
> Mix all of this with hCard, for authors; hReview, to help you decide
> between optionals and to detect bit-rot; and rel-license, for software
> rights issues. Suddenly we have a very powerful, automatic, user-driven
> system for keep software up to date.
>
> ~D
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:44:21 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 31 00:44:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] title
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701310044t4e30409dve536f961ec8e9a8b@mail.gmail.com>

In Brian's book example on the citation-brainstorming wiki page, the
title of the book is marked up with class="fn".

Every example we have uses 'title', except for the US. patent.

I vote to change that example to use 'title' and verify that 'title'
is the class name to be used to represent titles of hCite elements.
Other votes?

(Note: some formats use a different field name for titles that are
chapter titles. Recall that for hCite we have the 'container' field,
which is a nested hCite and would store the title of the containing
book as its own 'title'.)

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:55:00 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 31 00:55:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to hear some discussion on the language field for hCite.
I think it is useful, but it has two things going against it for me:

- many citation formats have supported useful work without storing the language
(I've never had 'language' in a bibtex entry, nor seen it written in a
list of references - even when it is obviously not the same language
as the referring page/paper.)

- We only have two examples of pages marking up the language on the
web - W3C and Amazon.com.

The second point is why I'm writing this - I am happy to admit that
it's useful to be able to mark up the language, and I'd have no
problem with 'language' as an optional field in hCite, but if there
are no other examples to be found, that suggests to me that maybe it's
not really necessary.

I'm open to the thought that Amazon alone is enough examples, because
of its size, but I'm not totally sold on that.

So - if you feel that hCite needs a language field, please find
relevant examples from the web and add them to the wiki, then point to
them in this thread.

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From absalom at iinet.net.au  Wed Jan 31 02:01:11 2007
From: absalom at iinet.net.au (Absalom Media)
Date: Wed Jan 31 02:01:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Annouce: New Microformats site
Message-ID: <45C068E7.6090704@iinet.net.au>

Just to let people know,

The Joomla! Melbourne User Group site is now live and fully
microformatted at http://www.joomlamug.com and www.joomlamug.org

All content is built around hAtom, all contact details are built around
hCard. The events calendar is partially hAtomised, with some
encapsulation of hEvent (still not perfect in terms of semantics,
though, so any tips to fix the event code would help as I want to hook
it into Technorati's event/RRS conversion). The web links are built
around hListing, with the next revision to include full XPN
relationships. The Live Users area is about to be implemented with a
hCard solution similar to connections.webdirections.org (XFN) as part of
providing tagging to Technorati (as spoken of previously on here).

In the same way Wordpress has a few packages for microformatting, I've
started delivering the same for Mambo & Joomla! (currently past
Generation 2 - so all core content has been microformatted by this time).

Reviews, comments and the like welcomed (oh, and I am experimenting with
sIFR 3.0 so don't get scared if the headings randomly disappear at times).

Thanks

Lawrence

-- 
Lawrence Meckan

Absalom Media
Mob: (04) 1047 9633
ABN: 49 286 495 792
http://www.absalom.biz
From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 03:36:31 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jan 31 03:36:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Annouce: New Microformats site
In-Reply-To: <45C068E7.6090704@iinet.net.au>
References: <45C068E7.6090704@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701310336k31abc46bra6cfa5ea8bc681ec@mail.gmail.com>

On 31/01/07, Absalom Media <absalom@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Just to let people know,
>
> The Joomla! Melbourne User Group site is now live and fully
> microformatted at http://www.joomlamug.com and www.joomlamug.org
>
> All content is built around hAtom, all contact details are built around
> hCard. The events calendar is partially hAtomised, with some
> encapsulation of hEvent (still not perfect in terms of semantics,
> though, so any tips to fix the event code would help as I want to hook
> it into Technorati's event/RRS conversion). The web links are built
> around hListing, with the next revision to include full XPN
> relationships. The Live Users area is about to be implemented with a
> hCard solution similar to connections.webdirections.org (XFN) as part of
> providing tagging to Technorati (as spoken of previously on here).
>
> In the same way Wordpress has a few packages for microformatting, I've
> started delivering the same for Mambo & Joomla! (currently past
> Generation 2 - so all core content has been microformatted by this time).
>
> Reviews, comments and the like welcomed (oh, and I am experimenting with
> sIFR 3.0 so don't get scared if the headings randomly disappear at times).
>
> Thanks
>
> Lawrence
>
> --

Hi Lawrence,

You might want to add appropriate links to the "Examples in the Wild"
sections of the microformats you've used in your site.  (e.g. [1])

Will take a look at your site as soon as I find a few minutes. :)

[1]http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Examples_in_the_wild

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 03:44:31 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jan 31 03:44:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to hear some discussion on the language field for hCite.
> I think it is useful, but it has two things going against it for me:
>
> - many citation formats have supported useful work without storing the language
> (I've never had 'language' in a bibtex entry, nor seen it written in a
> list of references - even when it is obviously not the same language
> as the referring page/paper.)
>
> - We only have two examples of pages marking up the language on the
> web - W3C and Amazon.com.
>
> The second point is why I'm writing this - I am happy to admit that
> it's useful to be able to mark up the language, and I'd have no
> problem with 'language' as an optional field in hCite, but if there
> are no other examples to be found, that suggests to me that maybe it's
> not really necessary.
>
> I'm open to the thought that Amazon alone is enough examples, because
> of its size, but I'm not totally sold on that.
>
> So - if you feel that hCite needs a language field, please find
> relevant examples from the web and add them to the wiki, then point to
> them in this thread.


--- HTML gives us a mechanism for determining the language. the @lang
attribute or @xml:lang. Both of these are in use already with hCard
and hCalendar. It would make sense to simply extend them to hCite as
well.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 03:46:38 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jan 31 03:46:42 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 31/01/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> > Chris Messina:
> >> <div class="vcard" id="vcard">
> >>  <address><a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard" class="fn
> >> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>
> >>  <div class="org">Citizen Agency</a>
> >>  ...
> >> </div>
> >>
>
> John Allsopp:
> > The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is "self: the
> > feed itself". The term "the" seems to indicate "definitiveness".
> > So, I was initially going to argue that "self me" was tautological,
> > but in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of
> > bookmark is probably tautological.
> >
> > So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, [?]
>
> +1 from me as well.
>
> Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems from anyone?

+1

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com

From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 04:00:54 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 04:00:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10701300755m1f5e219ch150cc5f54c620f7f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701300734v44bda029nfad0165e29bf6cac@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10701300755m1f5e219ch150cc5f54c620f7f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2A443C69-C77F-4A11-84F1-B44BDD098E90@lava.net>

On Jan 30, 2007, at 7:55 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:

> On 1/30/07, anders conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I would consider the rss and atom tools be not in accordance with the
>> (x)html specs on this one.  And I believe that muddying the code with
>> non-semantic tags makes is much more difficult to digest.
>
> I'd argue that <br /> does have semantics for a number of languages,  
> actually!

I would speculate, however, that most existing examples of code  
snippets are using <pre>. Adding <br />s is a lot of work if you're  
editing by hand.

-Colin
From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 04:08:57 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 04:09:01 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 3:46 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

> On 31/01/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
>> > Chris Messina:
>> >> <div class="vcard" id="vcard">
>> >>  <address><a href="http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard/#hcard"  
>> class="fn
>> >> url" rel="me self">Chris Messina</a></address>
>> >>  <div class="org">Citizen Agency</a>
>> >>  ...
>> >> </div>
>> >>
>>
>> John Allsopp:
>> > The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is "self: the
>> > feed itself". The term "the" seems to indicate "definitiveness".
>> > So, I was initially going to argue that "self me" was tautological,
>> > but in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of
>> > bookmark is probably tautological.
>> >
>> > So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, [?]
>>
>> +1 from me as well.
>>
>> Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems from  
>> anyone?
>
> +1

Can I get a clearer idea of what exactly is people are +1-ing? I +1  
@rel="self me", but am not willing to give my vote yet on using  
<address>, as it's not entirely clear if we're talking about mandating  
it, recommending it, etc. FWIW I'm not entirely convinced it's  
necessary to have it.

-Colin
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Wed Jan 31 04:34:20 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Wed Jan 31 04:34:31 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
Message-ID: <AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 31 Jan 2007, at 12:08, Colin Barrett wrote:
> Can I get a clearer idea of what exactly is people are +1-ing? I +1  
> @rel="self me", but am not willing to give my vote yet on using  
> <address>, as it's not entirely clear if we're talking about  
> mandating it, recommending it, etc. FWIW I'm not entirely convinced  
> it's necessary to have it.

Apologies, I perhaps should have created a fresh example rather than  
re-use Chris' original effort.

We are voting only on the use of @rel="me self" to reference an  
authoritative hCard that parsers should follow.

e.g.

<div class="vcard">
   <a class="fn url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk/about" rel="me  
self">Ben Ward</a>
</div>
From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 05:59:04 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 05:59:07 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BBD27124-8821-4D99-BA27-0E32EB542D33@lava.net>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 4:34 AM, Ben Ward wrote:

> On 31 Jan 2007, at 12:08, Colin Barrett wrote:
>> Can I get a clearer idea of what exactly is people are +1-ing? I +1  
>> @rel="self me", but am not willing to give my vote yet on using  
>> <address>, as it's not entirely clear if we're talking about  
>> mandating it, recommending it, etc. FWIW I'm not entirely convinced  
>> it's necessary to have it.
>
> Apologies, I perhaps should have created a fresh example rather than  
> re-use Chris' original effort.
>
> We are voting only on the use of @rel="me self" to reference an  
> authoritative hCard that parsers should follow.
>
> e.g.
>
> <div class="vcard">
>   <a class="fn url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk/about" rel="me  
> self">Ben Ward</a>
> </div>

Then +1 from me.

-Colin
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 06:15:31 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 31 06:15:35 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <BBD27124-8821-4D99-BA27-0E32EB542D33@lava.net>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<BBD27124-8821-4D99-BA27-0E32EB542D33@lava.net>
Message-ID: <923a87360701310615i2b0108s5047341cf81cb85e@mail.gmail.com>

+1

On 1/31/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 4:34 AM, Ben Ward wrote:
>
> > On 31 Jan 2007, at 12:08, Colin Barrett wrote:
> >> Can I get a clearer idea of what exactly is people are +1-ing? I +1
> >> @rel="self me", but am not willing to give my vote yet on using
> >> <address>, as it's not entirely clear if we're talking about
> >> mandating it, recommending it, etc. FWIW I'm not entirely convinced
> >> it's necessary to have it.
> >
> > Apologies, I perhaps should have created a fresh example rather than
> > re-use Chris' original effort.
> >
> > We are voting only on the use of @rel="me self" to reference an
> > authoritative hCard that parsers should follow.
> >
> > e.g.
> >
> > <div class="vcard">
> >   <a class="fn url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk/about" rel="me
> > self">Ben Ward</a>
> > </div>
>
> Then +1 from me.
>
> -Colin
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Wed Jan 31 06:37:58 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Wed Jan 31 06:38:02 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> We are voting only on the use of @rel="me self" to reference an
> authoritative hCard that parsers should follow.
>
> e.g.
>
> <div class="vcard">
>    <a class="fn url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk/about" rel="me
> self">Ben Ward</a>
> </div>

Just to be 100% pedantically clear:

(Part I)

If Ben puts this on his home page, parsers look at
"http://ben-ward.co.uk/" will know to look for an authoritative hCard
because of these two things:

1. there's a vcard
2. it has a "url" link with rel="me self"

(Part II -- implication)

If Ben places a vcard on a random page with
url="http://ben-ward.co.uk/", a consumer can optionally look there to
find an authoritative hCard.

The 80-20 rule covers the case where we would want to have more than
one authoritative hCard per page (i.e. it's not that common)

(Part III - rel-self)

We're getting the definition of rel-self from here [1]: "self: the
feed itself". It's a small stretch, but I just did some searching for
counter-examples (i.e. where rel-self doesn't point to the best URI
for a feed) and came up empty.

(Part IV -- the word authoritative)

I can't think of a better word. See definition 2 here [2]

So +1

Regards, etc...

[1] http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#link
[2] http://www.answers.com/authoritative&r=67

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 06:49:02 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 31 06:49:06 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>

> If Ben places a vcard on a random page with
> url="http://ben-ward.co.uk/", a consumer can optionally look there to
> find an authoritative hCard.

Just to stir the pot a little, and maybe it's a good idea to consider
authenticity in the whole discussion of authoritative cards. What
guarantees that when someone creates an hCard and puts rel="me self"
that they are giving the correct URL and that it isn't someone
impersonating you?

Would this be the place for a correlating hash to be included in the
hCard that the authoritative one has (which only the owner can
modify)?

Just a thought.
A.
From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jan 31 06:59:45 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jan 31 06:59:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <2A443C69-C77F-4A11-84F1-B44BDD098E90@lava.net>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701300734v44bda029nfad0165e29bf6cac@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10701300755m1f5e219ch150cc5f54c620f7f@mail.gmail.com>
	<2A443C69-C77F-4A11-84F1-B44BDD098E90@lava.net>
Message-ID: <CFB9F729-4F3B-48A2-AA3A-F91107B8D27D@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 6:00 AM, Colin Barrett wrote:

> On Jan 30, 2007, at 7:55 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:
>
>> On 1/30/07, anders conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I would consider the rss and atom tools be not in accordance with  
>>> the
>>> (x)html specs on this one.  And I believe that muddying the code  
>>> with
>>> non-semantic tags makes is much more difficult to digest.
>>
>> I'd argue that <br /> does have semantics for a number of  
>> languages, actually!
>
> I would speculate, however, that most existing examples of code  
> snippets are using <pre>. Adding <br />s is a lot of work if you're  
> editing by hand.

For what it's worth, PHP's syntax highlighting (which I use to share  
source code) automatically adds <br /> (or <br> in older versions)  
for line breaks:

http://www.php.net/highlight_string

Peace,
Scott

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Wed Jan 31 07:07:44 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Wed Jan 31 07:08:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote on
	this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 31 Jan 2007, at 14:49, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> Just to stir the pot a little, and maybe it's a good idea to consider
> authenticity in the whole discussion of authoritative cards. What
> guarantees that when someone creates an hCard and puts rel="me self"
> that they are giving the correct URL and that it isn't someone
> impersonating you?

The authoritative version of the hCard is only going to be relative  
to the published hCard itself. The situation doesn't change. Someone  
could already write an inaccurate hCard for me on their website. They  
could write a more thorough version and link from one to the other  
with rel="me self".  This addition doesn't affect the authenticity.

Authenticity falls out of scope of hCard alone. Layer in some OpenID  
and you can have start to imply some authenticity. (e.g. Parse an  
hCard at the OpenID url and follow rel="me self" to another domain.)

If you mean, someone at ?BenWardSmellsAwful.com? (don't register  
that, please) writing an hCard and linking to ben-ward.co.uk/about  
with rel="self me", the relationship is such that the Fake Ben's  
hcard is discarded in favour of my real one. This does not allow  
someone to describe ?this hCard here is the authoritative version of  
that one over there?. The direction of parsing disallows fakes.

Ben
From ryan at ryancannon.com  Wed Jan 31 07:15:58 2007
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Wed Jan 31 07:16:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] title
In-Reply-To: <200701311137.l0VBb4Bx017586@microformats.org>
References: <200701311137.l0VBb4Bx017586@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <F5CE7F9F-03AF-4044-ACCC-D51FDE0AFDC6@ryancannon.com>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 6:37 AM, Michael McCracken wrote:
> In Brian's book example on the citation-brainstorming wiki page, the
> title of the book is marked up with class="fn".
>
> Every example we have uses 'title', except for the US. patent.
>
> I vote to change that example to use 'title' and verify that 'title'
> is the class name to be used to represent titles of hCite elements.
> Other votes?

I believe this comes from the To Do[1] section of the Citation wiki  
page:
using existing class names to mark-up citations. "FN" or Formatted Name,
is "The name of the object,"[2] while title means "Job title or  
functional
position of the object." In this context, "FN" makes the most sense for
the title of the cited resource. That said, I go back and forth--at  
times
the vcard-stuffed format feels awkward, at other times it makes sense.

The question, of course, is whether this topic is even up for debate.  
While
I think "FN" for the title is unintuitive and will be off-putting for  
new
users.

As for more examples, I have a few that need work: this report's  
citations[3]
should be fine except for the incorrect root element, and my resume 
[4] uses
your conception of "title". Since neither of these examples conform  
to anything,
and just need to be done, I'm not going to put them up on the wiki,  
but maybe
they can inform the voting.

[1]: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation#To_Do
[2]: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes
[3]: http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~rcannonz/648/ 
final_paper.xhtml#references
[4]: http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~rcannonz/resume

-- 
Ryan

http://RyanCannon.com




From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Wed Jan 31 07:18:03 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Wed Jan 31 07:18:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701310718n5620f520laf4d7723165efcd7@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:

> The authoritative version of the hCard is only going to be relative
> to the published hCard itself. The situation doesn't change. Someone
> could already write an inaccurate hCard for me on their website. They
> could write a more thorough version and link from one to the other
> with rel="me self".  This addition doesn't affect the authenticity.
>
> Authenticity falls out of scope of hCard alone. Layer in some OpenID
> and you can have start to imply some authenticity. (e.g. Parse an
> hCard at the OpenID url and follow rel="me self" to another domain.)
>
> If you mean, someone at 'BenWardSmellsAwful.com' (don't register
> that, please) writing an hCard and linking to ben-ward.co.uk/about
> with rel="self me", the relationship is such that the Fake Ben's
> hcard is discarded in favour of my real one. This does not allow
> someone to describe 'this hCard here is the authoritative version of
> that one over there'. The direction of parsing disallows fakes.

Open ID spells this out up front: authentication is not trust [1].
It's similar for us; you/your consumer has to decide whether it trusts
a URI (BenWardSmellsAwful.com) making a authorative-hcard claim about
a hCard (ben-ward.co.uk/about), which you'll also have to make your
own decision about!

The nice thing is all the information is there for you to examine in
the open. Beyond that, the trust issue is difficult, to say the least,
and probably not solvable by microformats ... or big companies, or big
government :-)

Regards, etc...

[1] http://openid.net/about.bml

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From aconbere at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 07:45:05 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Wed Jan 31 07:45:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Looking for specific sugegstions for uF subscribable
	sites
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0701302342u6f30ab71kdfa0e70e08ff331d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9a04aea0701301103k100a2689rdba42808e5a662fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1bc4603e0701302342u6f30ab71kdfa0e70e08ff331d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701310745l79dc9931o3e9a2fd348c14dab@mail.gmail.com>

My lifestream, based on some ideas I heard people talking about is here

http://vidastream.net/u/aconbere/

I have no suggestions for a site with microformats you can subscribe to.

~ Anders

On 1/30/07, Chris Messina <chris.messina@gmail.com> wrote:
> My lifestream, based on Jeremy Keith's, is here:
>
> http://factoryjoe.com/stream
>
> Also, Ma.gnolia (rel=client) has tons of microformats baked in.
>
> Chris
>
> On 1/30/07, Steve Ivy <steveivy@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm working on a lifestream/feed aggregator app and I'm adding uF
> > support. I've looked through some of the *-example-in-the-wild pages
> > on the wiki, but I wanted to open it up here.
> >
> > If there are any sites that offer uF-formatted subscribable pages, I'm
> > looking for good samples to test against. I'm starting with hAtom and
> > hReview, but please let me know about any you'd like to be able to
> > subscribe to.
> >
> > You can respond here, or email me at steveivy@gmail.com
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Steve Ivy
> > http://redmonk.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ] private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 07:50:22 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 31 07:50:32 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>

> If you mean, someone at 'BenWardSmellsAwful.com' (don't register
> that, please) writing an hCard and linking to ben-ward.co.uk/about
> with rel="self me", the relationship is such that the Fake Ben's
> hcard is discarded in favour of my real one. This does not allow
> someone to describe 'this hCard here is the authoritative version of
> that one over there'. The direction of parsing disallows fakes.

Yes, but what if someone registers ben-ward.net and puts up a fake
card on that site. Then he goes and publishes a partial hCard on
myspace and points to ben-ward.net/about with rel="self me". He's
effectively hijacked your identity and/or caused confusion and there's
no real way to verify who's who or who's telling the truth. It may not
be such a big deal now, but if microformats are to grow and begin to
be integrated into who knows what apps in the future, there may be a
need to authenticate the validity of the authoritative hCard.

Now I understand that it's not up to the microformat to actually do
any authentication. But I think it makes a lot of sense to build a
mechanism into it that allows you to include a piece of verifiable
data (such as a hash or some other token) that could then be checked
against an authentication service or a file in the root of your own
domain (?-la Google Analytics).

I don't have any immediate ideas on how best to semantically do this,
but the concern popped into my head rather early on and I felt that
maybe now would be the time to bring it up.

Cheers,
A.

From joe at andrieu.net  Wed Jan 31 07:52:18 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Wed Jan 31 07:52:14 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative
	hCard{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE:
	CanonicalhCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c7454f$ca0fe240$0301a8c0@andrieuhome>

Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> Just to stir the pot a little, and maybe it's a good idea to 
> consider authenticity in the whole discussion of 
> authoritative cards. What guarantees that when someone 
> creates an hCard and puts rel="me self" that they are giving 
> the correct URL and that it isn't someone impersonating you?
> 
> Would this be the place for a correlating hash to be included 
> in the hCard that the authoritative one has (which only the 
> owner can modify)?

Ara,

The concept behind an "authoritative" hCard rather than "definitive" or
"canonical" one was that "authoritative" would explicitly be a /claim/
by the author of the hCard regarding its authority in describing the
subject of the hCard, i.e., use /this/ hCard as the one true source of
this individual's contact information.

The possibility for someone to impersonate another is a problem much
greater than the semantic html we use. Authentication and validation of
assertions ends up outside the scope of microformats, IMO. The
infrastructure simply isn't in place to guarantee /any/ semantic
information found online.  

Note also, the possibility for "authoritative" hCards to simply fall out
of date is a huge problem.  I for one, no longer have access to my
college account, but for years an old home page of mine would show up at
Google with suitably humorous results when colleagues and clients
discovered it.  It is easy to see how any hCard that I would have marked
as "authoritative" on that page could still be out in the wild, despite
it no longer being accurate and independent of my inability to correct
it.

So, the inaccuracy of an hCard is its own challenge, whether from
impersonation, poor maintenance, or simply typos. But I think we can
create value by agreeing on a mechanism for expressing the concept of an
authoritative hCard.  Services will simply have to accept that
"authoritative" is a claim and could be invalid for any number of
reasons.

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (805) 705-8651


From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Wed Jan 31 08:07:00 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Wed Jan 31 08:07:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701310807n3d67ba35u4de9c5a61fd25271@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Ara Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, but what if someone registers ben-ward.net and puts up a fake
> card on that site. Then he goes and publishes a partial hCard on
> myspace and points to ben-ward.net/about with rel="self me". He's
> effectively hijacked your identity and/or caused confusion and there's
> no real way to verify who's who or who's telling the truth. It may not
> be such a big deal now, but if microformats are to grow and begin to
> be integrated into who knows what apps in the future, there may be a
> need to authenticate the validity of the authoritative hCard.
>
> Now I understand that it's not up to the microformat to actually do
> any authentication. But I think it makes a lot of sense to build a
> mechanism into it that allows you to include a piece of verifiable
> data (such as a hash or some other token) that could then be checked
> against an authentication service or a file in the root of your own
> domain (?-la Google Analytics).

How if there's another Ben Ward? Sorry, lot's of people have thought
about this problem in lots of different realms (as I mentioned,
OpenID) and it's intractable.

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com

From ryan at ryancannon.com  Wed Jan 31 08:15:10 2007
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Wed Jan 31 08:15:15 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative
	hCard	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE:
	Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> Just to stir the pot a little, and maybe it's a good idea to consider
> authenticity in the whole discussion of authoritative cards. What
> guarantees that when someone creates an hCard and puts rel="me self"
> that they are giving the correct URL and that it isn't someone
> impersonating you?

I'm getting into this late, but isn't the entire concept behind  
rel="me"?
rel="me" links *must* be symmetric in order to create a distributed
verification system?. It's definition is "A link to yourself at a
different URL"[1]. According to the spec, rel="self me" is invalid  
*unless*
you do not include the XFN profile on your Web site.

-1 to rel="self me"

[1]: http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/11#me

-- 
Ryan Cannon

Interactive Developer
MSI Student, School of Information
University of Michigan
http://RyanCannon.com



From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jan 31 08:15:47 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jan 31 08:15:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701310718n5620f520laf4d7723165efcd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310718n5620f520laf4d7723165efcd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17433437-EB5B-41DB-9AB3-C127B933645E@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:18 AM, David Janes wrote:

> Open ID spells this out up front: authentication is not trust [1].

Nonetheless, people are trying to build trust systems on top of Open ID:

http://simonwillison.net/2007/Jan/22/whitelisting/

This is another topic entirely, but it occurs to me that adding  
something like rel="trust" to the linked names in moderated comments  
would remove the need for a separate whitelist.

Peace,
Scott
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 08:20:33 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 31 08:20:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701310807n3d67ba35u4de9c5a61fd25271@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e523c20701310807n3d67ba35u4de9c5a61fd25271@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701310820w1fbbbd70r7786bb491b6c153@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> How if there's another Ben Ward? Sorry, lot's of people have thought
> about this problem in lots of different realms (as I mentioned,
> OpenID) and it's intractable.

I guess there's no way to manage the partial hCards as they could
point anywhere and someone with the same name could easily be confused
with a potential identity hijacker. So yeah, that doesn't work.

As for authentication, I'm not sure it even matters come to think of
it. If anything, the site/page on which the authoritative hCard is
found is what needs to be authenticated rather than the piece of
markup itself.

In the end I think that the context is what lends credence to the
authenticity of the authoritative hCard and not the hCard itself.

A.
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 08:22:30 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 31 08:22:33 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
Message-ID: <923a87360701310822uead340fx7b372f8617884c4c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Ryan Cannon <ryan@ryancannon.com> wrote:
> I'm getting into this late, but isn't the entire concept behind
> rel="me"?
> rel="me" links *must* be symmetric in order to create a distributed
> verification system?. It's definition is "A link to yourself at a
> different URL"[1]. According to the spec, rel="self me" is invalid
> *unless*
> you do not include the XFN profile on your Web site.

So then the hCard you're pointing to doesn't have a rel="me" since
it's not "a link to yourself at a different URL" and that's where the
chain ends?

Hmmm...

A.
From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Wed Jan 31 08:32:08 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Wed Jan 31 08:32:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <17433437-EB5B-41DB-9AB3-C127B933645E@randomchaos.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310718n5620f520laf4d7723165efcd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<17433437-EB5B-41DB-9AB3-C127B933645E@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <21e523c20701310832s44c59b0flbe1a7ce000d5db6a@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Scott Reynen <scott@randomchaos.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:18 AM, David Janes wrote:
>
> > Open ID spells this out up front: authentication is not trust [1].
>
> Nonetheless, people are trying to build trust systems on top of Open ID:
>
> http://simonwillison.net/2007/Jan/22/whitelisting/
>
> This is another topic entirely, but it occurs to me that adding
> something like rel="trust" to the linked names in moderated comments
> would remove the need for a separate whitelist.
>
> Peace,
> Scott

(1)
Note that this just backs up the problem one step. I.e. we had

URI-A claims (via "rel me self") that URI-B is it's authoriative hCard

now we have (via a whitelist) additionally:

URI-C claims URI-A is who he says he is.

Whitelist additions to XFN may be an interested topic to explore!

(2)
It occurs to me that one form of hijacking can be prevented

URI-A: "ben-ward.co.uk": links to "ben-ward.co.uk/about"
URI-B: "ben-ward.co.uk/about". Ben's authorative hCard
URI-X: "BenWardSucks.com": links to "ben-ward.co.uk/about"

Now, if URI-B uses "url" to point back to URI-A, i.e. Ben's home page,
then we have validatation that URI-A is making a claim that URI-B is
agreeing with. On the other hand, URI-X is making an unsubstantiated
claim.

War,
David

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 08:50:25 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jan 31 08:50:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
References: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33875@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
	<F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
Message-ID: <e86992a40701310850g13cb11b7m78c92f47f6e6f47f@mail.gmail.com>

On 26/01/07, Goix Laurent Walter <laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat
> that could describe information related to the mood or the activity of a
> person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the web, or
> what they have been doing during the day, so it would be interesting to
> better formalize this information...
>

Hey,

I might be wading in a bit late on this one, but I'll throw in one of
my favourites for "hMood" : tags!

Could a mood not be described accurately simply by using a @rel-tag?
<a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/happy" rel="tag">happy</a>?
Afterall, the mood and activity is simply added to give a blog post,
for example, additional context and this is the purpose of tagging.

As for an activity (if this is what you may be suggesting by
presense), the same would apply (is currently <a
href="http://www.wikipedia.com/skydiving" rel="tag">sky diving</a> and
<a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/happy" rel="tag">happy</a> about
it).

Noticed someone's already mentioned GEO for actual location
formatting, so I won't again. :)

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Wed Jan 31 09:03:08 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:03:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B961305E-9E52-41C8-B12A-611DC507E0AB@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 31 Jan 2007, at 15:50, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> Yes, but what if someone registers ben-ward.net and puts up a fake
> card on that site. Then he goes and publishes a partial hCard on
> myspace and points to ben-ward.net/about with rel="self me". He's
> effectively hijacked your identity and/or caused confusion and there's
> no real way to verify who's who or who's telling the truth.

That's still no different to life without rel="me self".

I happen to own the domains <ben-ward.co.uk> and <ben-ward.com>. Note  
hyphens. I do not own <benward.com> , <benward.co.uk>  nor any other  
variant.

Domains do not prove identity. What I can do is make my entire  
?online identy? parsable by linking between my domains and my social  
network profiles using rel="me". That doesn't tell you anything more  
about me as a person than the fact that <flickr/photos/benward>, <ben- 
ward.co.uk> and <myspace.com/benwardcouk> are part of the same  
personal network of sites.

The owner of Ben-Ward.net could have his own personal network of  
sites too, but they would not be linked to from my own authoritative  
hCard at ben-ward.co.uk/about. Nothing stops him add rel="me" to his  
hcard pointing to my site, but that takes us well out of scope of  
hcard, and is still a different issue ? not something introduced by  
@rel="me self"

Ben
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Wed Jan 31 09:13:23 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:13:40 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative
	hCard	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE:
	Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
Message-ID: <3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 31 Jan 2007, at 16:15, Ryan Cannon wrote:
> It's definition is "A link to yourself at a
> different URL"[1].

Correct. Which is still valid in the rel="me self" case.

> According to the spec, rel="self me" is invalid *unless*
> you do not include the XFN profile on your Web site.

Sorry, I've got muddled here. According to which spec? Are you  
referring to the ?Exclusive of all other XFN values? part of the  
@rel=me spec [1]? That's also maintained, as @rel=self is not part of  
XFN, but (propositionally) of hcard.

[1]  http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/11#me

Ben

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Wed Jan 31 09:14:50 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:15:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re: Vote
	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <B961305E-9E52-41C8-B12A-611DC507E0AB@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<B961305E-9E52-41C8-B12A-611DC507E0AB@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F40AEFD0-49C9-415E-99D1-89523834007F@ben-ward.co.uk>


On 31 Jan 2007, at 17:03, Ben Ward wrote:
> The owner of Ben-Ward.net could have his own personal network of  
> sites too, but they would not be linked to from my own  
> authoritative hCard at ben-ward.co.uk/about. Nothing stops him add  
> rel="me" to his hcard pointing to my site, but that takes us well  
> out of scope of hcard, and is still a different issue ? not  
> something introduced by @rel="me self"

Actually I'm wrong here. The XFN spec points out that @rel=me must be  
symmetric, so the owner of ben-ward.net could *not* validly link to  
ben-ward.co.uk with @rel=me unless I linked back likewise.

?me: A link to yourself at a different URL. Exclusive of all other  
XFN values. *Required symmetric*.?

Ben
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 09:24:55 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:24:57 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
	<3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> On 31 Jan 2007, at 16:15, Ryan Cannon wrote:
> > It's definition is "A link to yourself at a
> > different URL"[1].
>
> Correct. Which is still valid in the rel="me self" case.
>
> > According to the spec, rel="self me" is invalid *unless*
> > you do not include the XFN profile on your Web site.
>
> Sorry, I've got muddled here. According to which spec? Are you
> referring to the "Exclusive of all other XFN values" part of the
> @rel=me spec [1]? That's also maintained, as @rel=self is not part of
> XFN, but (propositionally) of hcard.
>
> [1]  http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/11#me
>
> Ben
>

Ben,

Don't you think he has a point though? If you think of it, rel="me"
could suffice in that it refers to yourself at another URL (in line
with the idea of an authoritative hCard) and once you get there and
read that hCard and discover that it doesn't contain a rel="me", you
know you're at the authoritative card. In that sense, why add "self"?
Or am I now missing something?

A.
From sam.sethi at vecosys.com  Wed Jan 31 09:26:04 2007
From: sam.sethi at vecosys.com (Sam Sethi)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:26:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701310850g13cb11b7m78c92f47f6e6f47f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33875@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it><F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
	<e86992a40701310850g13cb11b7m78c92f47f6e6f47f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001>

Hi

Just wondering does presence and mood really apply to a microformat?  What I
want is federated presence across applications and devices. Set once show
everywhere. (SOSE) Today I have to multiple presence, mood and status
appliations. E.g Last.fm shows my current music in Skype. I also have
Twitter, Gmail, Live Messenger, Out of Office, VXMail, Skype status etc etc.
All of which are disconnected ... 

Personally I hope XMPP becomes the interoperable standard for presence and
then we an build apps on top of this? Twitter, Gmail and Joost are all using
XMPP and this potentially will allow me to set my presence, mood and status
in one app and have it ripple through to the others.  


Thanks in advance 

Sam Sethi  | Entrepologist | blog: vecosys | skype: samksethi  | This email
is:   [ ] bloggable    [ ] ask first   [X] private | 


-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Frances
Berriman
Sent: 31 January 2007 16:50
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?

On 26/01/07, Goix Laurent Walter <laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any plan/interest to work on a hMood or hPresence microformat 
> that could describe information related to the mood or the activity of 
> a person/group? Bloggers typically express their feelings over the 
> web, or what they have been doing during the day, so it would be 
> interesting to better formalize this information...
>

Hey,

I might be wading in a bit late on this one, but I'll throw in one of my
favourites for "hMood" : tags!

Could a mood not be described accurately simply by using a @rel-tag?
<a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/happy" rel="tag">happy</a>?
Afterall, the mood and activity is simply added to give a blog post, for
example, additional context and this is the purpose of tagging.

As for an activity (if this is what you may be suggesting by presense), the
same would apply (is currently <a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/skydiving"
rel="tag">sky diving</a> and <a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/happy"
rel="tag">happy</a> about it).

Noticed someone's already mentioned GEO for actual location formatting, so I
won't again. :)

--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Wed Jan 31 09:42:32 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:42:35 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
	<3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10701310942g534d3268ya46465bcb7586ed8@mail.gmail.com>

To further muddy the water, is it wise to start adding @rel="me" to
indicate authoritative hCards?

If I have a list of employees (please forgive any markup errors):

<div class="vcard">
  <a href="/users/john" rel="me self" class="url fn">John Doe</a>
</div>
<div class="vcard">
  <a href="/users/jane" rel="me self" class="url">Jane Doe</a>
</div>

Then an XFN parser will surely interpret that the 'me' on the linked
pages is the same as the 'me' of the current page?

-Ciaran McNulty
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Wed Jan 31 09:47:30 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:48:02 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
	<3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5D0463D-C36B-456F-8878-C826B062E4DA@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 31 Jan 2007, at 17:24, Ara Pehlivanian wrote:
> Ben,
>
> Don't you think he has a point though? If you think of it, rel="me"
> could suffice in that it refers to yourself at another URL (in line
> with the idea of an authoritative hCard) and once you get there and
> read that hCard and discover that it doesn't contain a rel="me", you
> know you're at the authoritative card. In that sense, why add "self"?
> Or am I now missing something?

The authoratitive hcard will also contain @rel="me". Firstly, to  
fulfil XFN it must link back to the linking resource and as a full  
hCard it will still contain URLs with @rel="me" pointing to the other  
sites I own.

@rel=me indicates that the URL on the end of it belongs to the same  
person
@rel=self is adopted from the definition of self in Atom. Quoting  
John Allsopp: The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is  
"self: the feed itself".

My understanding therefore, is that @rel=me indicates that it is the  
same person. @rel=self indicates that it is the same hcard. Therefore  
the absolute authoritative hcard we speak of may (I expect will)  
contain other links with @rel=me but will not contain a link with  
@rel=self.

Ben
From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 09:55:18 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan 31 09:55:24 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701310955qc6659ecl21af4123e14b8af3@mail.gmail.com>

I'm trying to catch up, but I'm finding it a bit difficult.  The
problem with rel="me" is that it's merely an alternative version, and
not authoritative or canonical, right?  Why is rel="me self" desirable
though?  Were there any other alternatives considered?

Thanks,
Ben West

On 1/31/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> On 1/31/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> > We are voting only on the use of @rel="me self" to reference an
> > authoritative hCard that parsers should follow.
> >
> > e.g.
> >
> > <div class="vcard">
> >    <a class="fn url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk/about" rel="me
> > self">Ben Ward</a>
> > </div>
>
> Just to be 100% pedantically clear:
>
> (Part I)
>
> If Ben puts this on his home page, parsers look at
> "http://ben-ward.co.uk/" will know to look for an authoritative hCard
> because of these two things:
>
> 1. there's a vcard
> 2. it has a "url" link with rel="me self"
>
> (Part II -- implication)
>
> If Ben places a vcard on a random page with
> url="http://ben-ward.co.uk/", a consumer can optionally look there to
> find an authoritative hCard.
>
> The 80-20 rule covers the case where we would want to have more than
> one authoritative hCard per page (i.e. it's not that common)
>
> (Part III - rel-self)
>
> We're getting the definition of rel-self from here [1]: "self: the
> feed itself". It's a small stretch, but I just did some searching for
> counter-examples (i.e. where rel-self doesn't point to the best URI
> for a feed) and came up empty.
>
> (Part IV -- the word authoritative)
>
> I can't think of a better word. See definition 2 here [2]
>
> So +1
>
> Regards, etc...
>
> [1] http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#link
> [2] http://www.answers.com/authoritative&r=67
>
> --
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 10:02:05 2007
From: ara.pehlivanian at gmail.com (Ara Pehlivanian)
Date: Wed Jan 31 10:02:07 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <C5D0463D-C36B-456F-8878-C826B062E4DA@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
	<3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C5D0463D-C36B-456F-8878-C826B062E4DA@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <923a87360701311002y4a2d59d4x4f64622d5c53e944@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Ben Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> The authoratitive hcard will also contain @rel="me". Firstly, to
> fulfil XFN it must link back to the linking resource and as a full
> hCard it will still contain URLs with @rel="me" pointing to the other
> sites I own.

Hang on, linking /back/ to the referring hCard would be unmanageable
for several reasons, not the least of which that you may not even be
aware of all the hCards linking ot you. As well as the fact that you
might have a hundred reciprocal links as a part of your authoritative
hCard. That makes no sense.

> @rel=me indicates that the URL on the end of it belongs to the same
> person
> @rel=self is adopted from the definition of self in Atom. Quoting
> John Allsopp: The "definition" of the self attribute value in Atom is
> "self: the feed itself".

Okay, that @rel="self" part makes sense.
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 10:17:56 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 31 10:18:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Brian Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/31/07, Michael McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'd like to hear some discussion on the language field for hCite.
> > I think it is useful, but it has two things going against it for me:
> >
> > - many citation formats have supported useful work without storing the language
> > (I've never had 'language' in a bibtex entry, nor seen it written in a
> > list of references - even when it is obviously not the same language
> > as the referring page/paper.)
> >
> > - We only have two examples of pages marking up the language on the
> > web - W3C and Amazon.com.
> >
> > The second point is why I'm writing this - I am happy to admit that
> > it's useful to be able to mark up the language, and I'd have no
> > problem with 'language' as an optional field in hCite, but if there
> > are no other examples to be found, that suggests to me that maybe it's
> > not really necessary.
> >
> > I'm open to the thought that Amazon alone is enough examples, because
> > of its size, but I'm not totally sold on that.
> >
> > So - if you feel that hCite needs a language field, please find
> > relevant examples from the web and add them to the wiki, then point to
> > them in this thread.
>
>
> --- HTML gives us a mechanism for determining the language. the @lang
> attribute or @xml:lang. Both of these are in use already with hCard
> and hCalendar. It would make sense to simply extend them to hCite as
> well.
>

If we use @lang, doesn't that mean we're specifying the language of
the words in the hCite element, but not necessarily the language of
the thing we're citing?

-mike
-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From ehs at pobox.com  Wed Jan 31 10:30:38 2007
From: ehs at pobox.com (Edward Summers)
Date: Wed Jan 31 10:30:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C733AB6-E5B1-4BD8-ACCF-9EF20E145741@pobox.com>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Michael McCracken wrote:
> If we use @lang, doesn't that mean we're specifying the language of
> the words in the hCite element, but not necessarily the language of
> the thing we're citing?

Practically aren't these the same thing?

//Ed
From ryan at ryancannon.com  Wed Jan 31 10:33:48 2007
From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon)
Date: Wed Jan 31 10:34:05 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative
	hCard	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was
	RE:	Canonical hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <200701311715.l0VHF7xs028436@microformats.org>
References: <200701311715.l0VHF7xs028436@microformats.org>
Message-ID: <940A457E-2A99-4AD6-9701-A824E5FD3D82@ryancannon.com>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 12:15 PM, Ben Ward wrote:
>> According to the spec, rel="self me" is invalid *unless*
>> you do not include the XFN profile on your Web site.
>
> Sorry, I've got muddled here. According to which spec? Are you
> referring to the ?Exclusive of all other XFN values? part of the
> @rel=me spec [1]? That's also maintained, as @rel=self is not part of
> XFN, but (propositionally) of hcard.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I very well might be.

@rel=me is defined in the XFN profile it means (emphasis mine):

 > A link to yourself at a *different* URL

@rel=self is defined (as far as I can tell) in the ATOM spec.[2] It  
means:

 > The value "self" signifies that the IRI in the value of the href
 > attribute identifies a resource equivalent to the containing
 > element.

The only way @rel="self me" would be valid is if the following  
conditions
occurred:

   * Two hCards appeared at different URLs
   * The hCards linked to each other with @rel="me"
   * The two hCards contained the same information

So according to current definitions of these terms, @rel="self me" could
not point to an authoritative hCard that contained better, more  
robust or
more up-to-date information about the person.

However, perhaps @rel="via" might apply here, meaning semantically:

 > that the IRI in the value of the href
 > attribute identifies a resource that is the source of the
 > information provided in the containing element.

In this way, the hCard with @rel=via could point to a different hCard  
that
contains authoritative information.

[1]: http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/11#me
[2]: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287.txt
-- 
Ryan Cannon

Interactive Developer
MSI Student, School of Information
University of Michigan
http://RyanCannon.com




From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 10:49:36 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 10:49:39 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <C5D0463D-C36B-456F-8878-C826B062E4DA@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
	<3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C5D0463D-C36B-456F-8878-C826B062E4DA@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <77688AA4-F22B-4351-833E-A62CBDA05F41@lava.net>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:47 AM, Ben Ward wrote:

> My understanding therefore, is that @rel=me indicates that it is the  
> same person. @rel=self indicates that it is the same hcard.  
> Therefore the absolute authoritative hcard we speak of may (I expect  
> will) contain other links with @rel=me but will not contain a link  
> with @rel=self.

This is what I understood.

 From here on, is a braindump:

I'm still unsure of the original objection, which seems to be that  
@rel=me must be symmetric. XFN does not have the concept of one of  
those pages being more authoritative than the other, right? If we have  
the following page structure (bare minimum markup included for brevity):

Document A:
<a href="B" rel="me"></a>

Document B:
<a href="A" rel="me"></a>

to XFN, both pages are equally "authoritative," in that they represent  
the same author. XFN doesn't seem to care much about which one is  
"more authoritative" than the other, just that they are referring to  
the same person, and that's fine.

Adding @rel=self is a proposed way of breaking this loop, and letting  
one settle as the authority:

Document A:
<a href="A" rel="me self"></a>

Docment B:
<a href="A" rel="me"></a>

I think that would be the use case (judging by what Chris Messina  
posted)?

The problem there seems that A no longer tells us anything about  
wether or not it recognizes B as another, valid source of information.  
Simply adding another URL with @rel=me doesn't seem like it would work  
though -- then the following case could occur:

Document A:
<a href="A" rel="me self"></a>
<a href="B" rel="me"></a>

Document B:
<a href="B" rel="me self"></a>
<a href="A" rel="me"></a>

In which both A and B claim authority, and both link to each other as  
"slaves", which leaves a parser in a strange situation -- now you  
don't just have two pages claiming to represent one person, but two  
pages claiming to be the authoritative source for one person. This  
doesn't seem like it would make a whole lot of sense.

end braindump.

Is this (one of) the issues being discussed? I'm basing a lot of this  
on Chris Messina's email to the thread, which was a bit unclear.

If so, I wrote a second part to this (attempting to solve that  
problem), but decided to save it until I know wether or not I even  
have my assumptions in order.
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 10:57:20 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 31 10:57:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <7C733AB6-E5B1-4BD8-ACCF-9EF20E145741@pobox.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C733AB6-E5B1-4BD8-ACCF-9EF20E145741@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701311057r207a006fud5fd2900116b178f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Edward Summers <ehs@pobox.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Michael McCracken wrote:
> > If we use @lang, doesn't that mean we're specifying the language of
> > the words in the hCite element, but not necessarily the language of
> > the thing we're citing?
>
> Practically aren't these the same thing?

Well, suppose I'm writing about a Russian book in an English document
- I will mark up the month name in English, although the book itself
is in Russian.

On the other hand, I don't think that covering that case is
necessarily in the 80% - for instance, we have no examples that I can
see which mix languages like that.

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 11:05:36 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 11:05:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <7C733AB6-E5B1-4BD8-ACCF-9EF20E145741@pobox.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C733AB6-E5B1-4BD8-ACCF-9EF20E145741@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <414D3E43-9267-477F-B82B-926FCBD18D45@lava.net>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 10:30 AM, Edward Summers wrote:

> On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Michael McCracken wrote:
>> If we use @lang, doesn't that mean we're specifying the language of
>> the words in the hCite element, but not necessarily the language of
>> the thing we're citing?
>
> Practically aren't these the same thing?

Book titles and the language they are in are not always identical. In  
general, messing with the meaning of @lang is tricky, as UAs may take  
that as a hint to use a different encoding.

Brian, I'm not seeing @lang in the hCard or hCalendar specs on the  
wiki. Or did you mean by in-use that lang has been used on hCards in  
the wild to mark up language information about the element (eg a name)  
semantically.

-Colin
From charles.roper at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 11:06:18 2007
From: charles.roper at gmail.com (Charles Roper)
Date: Wed Jan 31 11:06:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b5d3b8c70701311106y505dd015wc2737279917cdf5a@mail.gmail.com>

On 30/01/07, Benjamin West <bewest@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/30/07, Charles Roper <charles.roper@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm very interested in the Species microformat, but the process seems
> > to have stalled and I just wanted to poll opinion here as to why that
> > might be. Is it due to a lack of demand?

> To be honest, the
> use case for the species microformat is a little bit weak.  It could
> be that if there is a lack of demand, it is due to the weak use case
> and the gap between the research and the proposal.

OK, that is a decent criticism I feel. The use case, which is pretty
much encapsulated here: http://microformats.org/wiki/species#Proposal,
does sound a little vague to me too. There is clearly a failure on the
part of us proponents of species to communicate the uses of it
convincingly. Perhaps fleshing out use cases and clarifying the
importance of semantically marking up taxonomic names would be a good
next action?

>(The use case
> essentially describes a hyperlinking behaviour that is already present
> and used on many sites.) This is just my own opinion though.

I'm not sure that it does. There is an element of tagging; i.e.,
referencing an authoritative resource. But, just as importantly, there
is the parsing and collation use. Being able to extract, collate and
analyse taxonomic names from web pages is a tremendously compelling
concept, especially when married with married with who, when and where
data (the species being the "what"). These are the basic elements that
constitute a "biological record."

> > It seems that the successful
> > microformats have been developed, in the main, by web designers and
> > developers for web designers and developers. Could it be that web
> > designers and developers of the microformats community do not perceive
> > the value of a species microformat in the same way that they can see
> > the value of, say, hCard, hReview, XFN, etc. The more successful
> > microformats seem to be riding on the back of the "social web"
> > zeitgeist, with many (most?) being used in this kind of context. I
> > don't see species as being of particular interest to the bloggers and
> > the other social-networking, mashup-making, digerati of current times.
> > Is appealing to this demographic the key in getting a microformat
> > developed? I'd appreciate the view of people in this community.
> >
>
> If I think I know what you mean here, I disagree a bit.  Who, what,
> when, how, where are all answered by these microformats.  They are
> extremely common, and are probably the first data types to be
> represented by any new technology.  For example: how old is the
> calendar compared to taxonomy? hcard describes "who", xfn describes
> "how are they related", hcalendar describes "when".... Again, this is
> my own opinion, and I don't have any evidence.

I think what I'm trying to get at here is this: at present my feeling
(and this is just a feeling) is that the microfomats gaining most
traction are ones that are related quite closely to social networking
and, dare I say it, Web 2.0 concepts. I'm not saying that's a bad
thing, but I do feel that because there's not a lot of interest in
species and related matters within these circles (the interest lies in
technology, modern media and networking), that trying to develop a
species microformat at this point in time is going to be an uphill
struggle, simply because there aren't many people out there who would
take advantage of such a thing right now.

> > I also wanted to ask about the fundamental microformat principle of
> > "paving the cowpaths" in relation to hCard. It seems to me that hCard
> > was derived from vCard rather than being based on existing markup
> > practice. How does this square up with the cowpaths philosophy?
> >
> I'll leave this to others.  However, I do think the kind of path vcard
> took is qualitatively different than the one species is taking.

I'm not really questioning the quality of the two approaches, but
rather the fundamental uF principle of "paving the cowpaths." As far
as I am aware (but please correct me if I am wrong), hCard is an
extraction of vCard rather than an extraction of existing markup
practice. This being the case, can other microformats, in the absence
of existing practice, not be developed on the back of existing,
canonical standards?

> > This brings me to a question about Species. The Species proposal
> > doesn't really reflect current mark-up practice but instead represents
> > what might be a good way of doing things in the future if authors were
> > to start using it.
>
> I agree completely, and I think this is a problem with the current
> effort, but it's one that is solveable.

If this *is* a problem, why wasn't it a problem with hCard? I'm not
trying to get at anyone here, I'm just trying to wrap my head around
this apparent anomaly.

> > The vocabulary in the proposal isn't plucked out of
> > thin-air, though; it is taken from the taxonomic hierarchy as used by
> > biologists. It seems to be modelled on hCard in this respect, hence my
> > cowpaths question. My own feeling is that the current proposal is too
> > complex. The current usage patterns as far as I can see (in the
> > majority of cases) either have species names as plain text or
> > marked-up with simple <strong> tags, or <em> or <i>. However, I'm not
> > adverse to having a rich vocabulary of class names to call on should I
> > need them (which 9 times out of 10 I won't), as long as a species name
> > can still be marked-up very simply. This is similar to the way in
> > which hCard has a rich vocabulary, but can still be very simple.
> >
>
> Charles, this is a great analysis.  This matches my observings, at
> <http://microformats.org/wiki/species-examples-regrouped>.  I think
> the format would benefit greatly from taking a fresh look at the
> examples collected.  It look to me like there should be two pieces.
> One should be the way authors mention species in text, the other
> should be how authoritative sources represent the information about a
> species.  In any case, the first behaviour can be accomplished,
> perhaps entirely, by using tagging techniques.  Perhaps the in-depth
> use of unambiguous names can be used by a second format intended for
> publishers of the authoritative information.

Given the problems associated with the naming of species, there
certainly needs to be a way of linking a species name with an
authority in order to clarify ambiguity, link synonymy and otherwise
extract other taxonomic intelligence. But authors aren't going to want
to make a link out of every mention of a species name, although they
might well want to mark up that name as being a species. It looks as
if the LSID could well become the URI of choice for linking names to
authorities, but these, when placed in an href don't resolve in
current browsers. So the question is, how could LSIDs work with
tagging?

Many thanks for the feedback, it's much appreciated.

Cheers,

Charles
-- 
Charles Roper
www.sxbrc.org.uk
From michael.mccracken at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 11:06:37 2007
From: michael.mccracken at gmail.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed Jan 31 11:06:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] Wikipedia Book infobox template
Message-ID: <d4fa3cf70701311106w7875cb5dgfc86e31bd82b3ecb@mail.gmail.com>

Some potentially discussion about marking up book metadata for the
Wikipedia occurs on the talk page for the Infobox template on
Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_Book

Here's the template itself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Book

I've added the fields they have in their template to the citation-examples page:

http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#Book_Infobox

-mike

-- 
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
From digitalspaghetti at googlemail.com  Wed Jan 31 11:08:00 2007
From: digitalspaghetti at googlemail.com (digital spaghetti)
Date: Wed Jan 31 11:08:03 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <77688AA4-F22B-4351-833E-A62CBDA05F41@lava.net>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
	<3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C5D0463D-C36B-456F-8878-C826B062E4DA@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<77688AA4-F22B-4351-833E-A62CBDA05F41@lava.net>
Message-ID: <eacff6d20701311108r697df22br4ef467f2a107abf7@mail.gmail.com>

Just chiming in my two pence here:

Rather than something like @rel="me self", would a better idea not be
to look at including some kind of way of authenticating the source
such as a MicroID hash?

This has already been discussed on the MicroId list along the lines of this:

@rel="me microid-mailto+http:sha1:hash" (has being a full sha1 or
sha256 hash), then services like claimID can then look at the tag, and
convert back.  If your registered ClaimID email address and the URI of
the source match the hash in the rel tag, then the source is verified
as being you?

There are more details on the spec at http://microid.org/microid.html

Tane

On 1/31/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:47 AM, Ben Ward wrote:
>
> > My understanding therefore, is that @rel=me indicates that it is the
> > same person. @rel=self indicates that it is the same hcard.
> > Therefore the absolute authoritative hcard we speak of may (I expect
> > will) contain other links with @rel=me but will not contain a link
> > with @rel=self.
>
> This is what I understood.
>
>  From here on, is a braindump:
>
> I'm still unsure of the original objection, which seems to be that
> @rel=me must be symmetric. XFN does not have the concept of one of
> those pages being more authoritative than the other, right? If we have
> the following page structure (bare minimum markup included for brevity):
>
> Document A:
> <a href="B" rel="me"></a>
>
> Document B:
> <a href="A" rel="me"></a>
>
> to XFN, both pages are equally "authoritative," in that they represent
> the same author. XFN doesn't seem to care much about which one is
> "more authoritative" than the other, just that they are referring to
> the same person, and that's fine.
>
> Adding @rel=self is a proposed way of breaking this loop, and letting
> one settle as the authority:
>
> Document A:
> <a href="A" rel="me self"></a>
>
> Docment B:
> <a href="A" rel="me"></a>
>
> I think that would be the use case (judging by what Chris Messina
> posted)?
>
> The problem there seems that A no longer tells us anything about
> wether or not it recognizes B as another, valid source of information.
> Simply adding another URL with @rel=me doesn't seem like it would work
> though -- then the following case could occur:
>
> Document A:
> <a href="A" rel="me self"></a>
> <a href="B" rel="me"></a>
>
> Document B:
> <a href="B" rel="me self"></a>
> <a href="A" rel="me"></a>
>
> In which both A and B claim authority, and both link to each other as
> "slaves", which leaves a parser in a strange situation -- now you
> don't just have two pages claiming to represent one person, but two
> pages claiming to be the authoritative source for one person. This
> doesn't seem like it would make a whole lot of sense.
>
> end braindump.
>
> Is this (one of) the issues being discussed? I'm basing a lot of this
> on Chris Messina's email to the thread, which was a bit unclear.
>
> If so, I wrote a second part to this (attempting to solve that
> problem), but decided to save it until I know wether or not I even
> have my assumptions in order.
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 11:22:30 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan 31 11:22:34 2007
Subject: Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard
	{was: Re: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical
	hCards (was: Search on CSS element)]}
In-Reply-To: <eacff6d20701311108r697df22br4ef467f2a107abf7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200701311449.l0VEnA0o001415@microformats.org>
	<887440FB-DD48-40D9-8455-DF6D84431292@ryancannon.com>
	<3E8E9322-0942-4398-9C80-5C31C9E65B79@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310924q2b3b8efdq93b0e4f7163fc89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C5D0463D-C36B-456F-8878-C826B062E4DA@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<77688AA4-F22B-4351-833E-A62CBDA05F41@lava.net>
	<eacff6d20701311108r697df22br4ef467f2a107abf7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701311122v634763a4j1df4cd15bb65b1b3@mail.gmail.com>

There is quite a lot of interest in this topic.  With all the voices,
it's becoming quite difficult to keep track of what we're talking
about, and who thinks what.

I've added this issue to the hcard-issues page.

<http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues#Canonical.2FAuthoritative_Hcard>

I would greatly appreciate everyone filling out the details of this
issue, as well as adding their opinion on this page.  Hopefully the
discussion will be easier to track.

There seems to be enough interest to sustain this issue in a real-time
chat on IRC.  I invite all of you to continue discussion on the wiki
and IRC so that more people can participate without getting hopelessly
lost.

Thanks,
Ben West

On 1/31/07, digital spaghetti <digitalspaghetti@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Just chiming in my two pence here:
>
> Rather than something like @rel="me self", would a better idea not be
> to look at including some kind of way of authenticating the source
> such as a MicroID hash?
>
> This has already been discussed on the MicroId list along the lines of this:
>
> @rel="me microid-mailto+http:sha1:hash" (has being a full sha1 or
> sha256 hash), then services like claimID can then look at the tag, and
> convert back.  If your registered ClaimID email address and the URI of
> the source match the hash in the rel tag, then the source is verified
> as being you?
>
> There are more details on the spec at http://microid.org/microid.html
>
> Tane
>
> On 1/31/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:47 AM, Ben Ward wrote:
> >
> > > My understanding therefore, is that @rel=me indicates that it is the
> > > same person. @rel=self indicates that it is the same hcard.
> > > Therefore the absolute authoritative hcard we speak of may (I expect
> > > will) contain other links with @rel=me but will not contain a link
> > > with @rel=self.
> >
> > This is what I understood.
> >
> >  From here on, is a braindump:
> >
> > I'm still unsure of the original objection, which seems to be that
> > @rel=me must be symmetric. XFN does not have the concept of one of
> > those pages being more authoritative than the other, right? If we have
> > the following page structure (bare minimum markup included for brevity):
> >
> > Document A:
> > <a href="B" rel="me"></a>
> >
> > Document B:
> > <a href="A" rel="me"></a>
> >
> > to XFN, both pages are equally "authoritative," in that they represent
> > the same author. XFN doesn't seem to care much about which one is
> > "more authoritative" than the other, just that they are referring to
> > the same person, and that's fine.
> >
> > Adding @rel=self is a proposed way of breaking this loop, and letting
> > one settle as the authority:
> >
> > Document A:
> > <a href="A" rel="me self"></a>
> >
> > Docment B:
> > <a href="A" rel="me"></a>
> >
> > I think that would be the use case (judging by what Chris Messina
> > posted)?
> >
> > The problem there seems that A no longer tells us anything about
> > wether or not it recognizes B as another, valid source of information.
> > Simply adding another URL with @rel=me doesn't seem like it would work
> > though -- then the following case could occur:
> >
> > Document A:
> > <a href="A" rel="me self"></a>
> > <a href="B" rel="me"></a>
> >
> > Document B:
> > <a href="B" rel="me self"></a>
> > <a href="A" rel="me"></a>
> >
> > In which both A and B claim authority, and both link to each other as
> > "slaves", which leaves a parser in a strange situation -- now you
> > don't just have two pages claiming to represent one person, but two
> > pages claiming to be the authoritative source for one person. This
> > doesn't seem like it would make a whole lot of sense.
> >
> > end braindump.
> >
> > Is this (one of) the issues being discussed? I'm basing a lot of this
> > on Chris Messina's email to the thread, which was a bit unclear.
> >
> > If so, I wrote a second part to this (attempting to solve that
> > problem), but decided to save it until I know wether or not I even
> > have my assumptions in order.
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jan 31 12:09:26 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jan 31 12:09:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process
In-Reply-To: <b5d3b8c70701311106y505dd015wc2737279917cdf5a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>
	<b5d3b8c70701311106y505dd015wc2737279917cdf5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DD3D2269-77EC-48E8-9024-D7DAB0DCE736@randomchaos.com>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 1:06 PM, Charles Roper wrote:

> I think what I'm trying to get at here is this: at present my feeling
> (and this is just a feeling) is that the microfomats gaining most
> traction are ones that are related quite closely to social networking
> and, dare I say it, Web 2.0 concepts. I'm not saying that's a bad
> thing, but I do feel that because there's not a lot of interest in
> species and related matters within these circles (the interest lies in
> technology, modern media and networking), that trying to develop a
> species microformat at this point in time is going to be an uphill
> struggle, simply because there aren't many people out there who would
> take advantage of such a thing right now.

I don't think this community is entirely representative of the web at  
large, so I wouldn't take perceived disinterest in this community to  
necessarily mean a potential microformat has no promise.  On the  
other hand, the target audience for microformats is not just any  
random person off the street, nor even any random person off the web;  
it's publishers.  So the important question is: what will it take to  
get publishers publishing the kind of species markup you'd like to see?

> I'm not really questioning the quality of the two approaches, but
> rather the fundamental uF principle of "paving the cowpaths." As far
> as I am aware (but please correct me if I am wrong), hCard is an
> extraction of vCard rather than an extraction of existing markup
> practice. This being the case, can other microformats, in the absence
> of existing practice, not be developed on the back of existing,
> canonical standards?

There are two aspects to this I fear you're conflating: the data and  
the markup.  The "cowpaths" here is the data.  Microformats, the  
"paving," is the standardized markup.  If the markup were already  
standardized, there would be no need for microformats.  But if the  
data isn't already commonly published, it doesn't matter how nice the  
markup is.  Contact data is incredibly common on the web, so hCard  
was successful.  Certainly using a 1-to-1 mapping of vCard helped,  
but that's not nearly as important as the ubiquity of the data.   
Better pavement is nice, but cowpaths are critical.

>> > This brings me to a question about Species. The Species proposal
>> > doesn't really reflect current mark-up practice but instead  
>> represents
>> > what might be a good way of doing things in the future if  
>> authors were
>> > to start using it.
>>
>> I agree completely, and I think this is a problem with the current
>> effort, but it's one that is solveable.
>
> If this *is* a problem, why wasn't it a problem with hCard? I'm not
> trying to get at anyone here, I'm just trying to wrap my head around
> this apparent anomaly.

I think confusing markup *was* a problem with hCard.  Publishers  
weren't familiar with using class names to describe content for  
anything other than stylesheets.  But the ubiquity of contact data on  
the web meant that there so many potential hCard publishers out there  
that the skeptics could be temporarily ignored while others adopted  
hCard.  Meanwhile, consuming applications were developed, which made  
hCard more appealing to skeptics, and HTML semantics became better  
understood generally, which made skeptics less skeptical.  So it was  
a problem that could be overcome in the case of hCard.  Species  
doesn't have the same luxuries of widespread publishing and eager  
tool developers, but it does have the benefit of more widespread  
understanding of HTML semantics brought about by previous  
microformats (e.g. hCard).

Peace,
Scott

From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 14:20:02 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 14:20:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process
In-Reply-To: <b5d3b8c70701311106y505dd015wc2737279917cdf5a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>
	<b5d3b8c70701311106y505dd015wc2737279917cdf5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44DCA239-3654-4B22-80A7-8698DB885F63@lava.net>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Charles Roper wrote:

>> > I also wanted to ask about the fundamental microformat principle of
>> > "paving the cowpaths" in relation to hCard. It seems to me that  
>> hCard
>> > was derived from vCard rather than being based on existing markup
>> > practice. How does this square up with the cowpaths philosophy?
>> >
>> I'll leave this to others.  However, I do think the kind of path  
>> vcard
>> took is qualitatively different than the one species is taking.
>
> I'm not really questioning the quality of the two approaches, but
> rather the fundamental uF principle of "paving the cowpaths." As far
> as I am aware (but please correct me if I am wrong), hCard is an
> extraction of vCard rather than an extraction of existing markup
> practice. This being the case, can other microformats, in the absence
> of existing practice, not be developed on the back of existing,
> canonical standards?

I think in the vcard and icalendar  (hCard and hCalendar) case, people  
*were* using the vcard and icalendar implementations to pass around  
data. A lot of sites were offering "download my vCard" and "subscribe  
to .ics" links.

If an existing standard is being used to mark up data, that's the  
cowpath we're going to pave; even if it's necessarily markup in HTML.  
hAtom is another good example -- people weren't marking up Atom in a  
webpage, but they were marking up documents with Atom and linking to  
them. That's another one of the goals of microformats (although I'm  
not sure if it's stated): have one place for the data.

This is all obviously a bit of a corner case, as most of the time  
content on the web is marked up with (X)HTML, but I think it's an  
important one (as hCard, hCalendar, and hAtom all started out that way).

-Colin
From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 14:23:03 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 14:23:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <CFB9F729-4F3B-48A2-AA3A-F91107B8D27D@randomchaos.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701300734v44bda029nfad0165e29bf6cac@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10701300755m1f5e219ch150cc5f54c620f7f@mail.gmail.com>
	<2A443C69-C77F-4A11-84F1-B44BDD098E90@lava.net>
	<CFB9F729-4F3B-48A2-AA3A-F91107B8D27D@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <80F18DE2-EA50-4A87-BB15-57308CF429EF@lava.net>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 6:59 AM, Scott Reynen wrote:

> On Jan 31, 2007, at 6:00 AM, Colin Barrett wrote:
>
>> On Jan 30, 2007, at 7:55 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/30/07, anders conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I would consider the rss and atom tools be not in accordance with  
>>>> the
>>>> (x)html specs on this one.  And I believe that muddying the code  
>>>> with
>>>> non-semantic tags makes is much more difficult to digest.
>>>
>>> I'd argue that <br /> does have semantics for a number of  
>>> languages, actually!
>>
>> I would speculate, however, that most existing examples of code  
>> snippets are using <pre>. Adding <br />s is a lot of work if you're  
>> editing by hand.
>
> For what it's worth, PHP's syntax highlighting (which I use to share  
> source code) automatically adds <br /> (or <br> in older versions)  
> for line breaks:

This, and other languages that have built-in (or very common) syntax  
hilighting, is a great corpus of data to look at.

I will add it to the wiki in the next day or two, but feel free to  
beat me to it.
-Colin

From aconbere at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 14:47:04 2007
From: aconbere at gmail.com (anders conbere)
Date: Wed Jan 31 14:47:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <80F18DE2-EA50-4A87-BB15-57308CF429EF@lava.net>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EB6307-48DA-4667-A2D2-7CC55BD4382E@lava.net>
	<cdc278e10701300155i6dc18909k46b4ad61b55a6ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ca3fbe80701300734v44bda029nfad0165e29bf6cac@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10701300755m1f5e219ch150cc5f54c620f7f@mail.gmail.com>
	<2A443C69-C77F-4A11-84F1-B44BDD098E90@lava.net>
	<CFB9F729-4F3B-48A2-AA3A-F91107B8D27D@randomchaos.com>
	<80F18DE2-EA50-4A87-BB15-57308CF429EF@lava.net>
Message-ID: <8ca3fbe80701311447p4e891068h8f3f4ec0c0a3dc6b@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Colin Barrett <timber@lava.net> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 6:59 AM, Scott Reynen wrote:
>
> > On Jan 31, 2007, at 6:00 AM, Colin Barrett wrote:
> >
> >> On Jan 30, 2007, at 7:55 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 1/30/07, anders conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I would consider the rss and atom tools be not in accordance with
> >>>> the
> >>>> (x)html specs on this one.  And I believe that muddying the code
> >>>> with
> >>>> non-semantic tags makes is much more difficult to digest.
> >>>
> >>> I'd argue that <br /> does have semantics for a number of
> >>> languages, actually!
> >>
> >> I would speculate, however, that most existing examples of code
> >> snippets are using <pre>. Adding <br />s is a lot of work if you're
> >> editing by hand.
> >
> > For what it's worth, PHP's syntax highlighting (which I use to share
> > source code) automatically adds <br /> (or <br> in older versions)
> > for line breaks:
>
> This, and other languages that have built-in (or very common) syntax
> hilighting, is a great corpus of data to look at.
>
> I will add it to the wiki in the next day or two, but feel free to
> beat me to it.
> -Colin

I've been pulled to other nether-regions of the net recently, so I
haven't had much time to work more on this. I'm still watching, but
won't have time to add things to the wiki for a couple of days.

Thanks!
~ Anders

>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From derrick at pallas.us  Wed Jan 31 19:07:33 2007
From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas)
Date: Wed Jan 31 19:08:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Should microformat features (like rel-tag) have
	explicit scope?
Message-ID: <45C15975.6060304@pallas.us>

If I have a parser that only knows (and only cares about) the rel-tag 
format, it will be confused by people that use rel-tag for the category 
property in hCard. It seems unreasonable that every microformat should 
have to know about every other microformat, especially when they are nested.

Would it be wise to have a scoping mechanism explicitly defined? E.g., 
it the following fragment, "bar" is a tag for the document whereas "foo" 
is a tag for the xFolk entry.

  <a rel="tag" href="http://example.com/bar">bar</a>
  <div class="xfolkentry">
      <a class="taggedlink" 
href="http://microformats.org">microformats</a> is
      <a rel="tag" href="http://example.com/foo">foo</a>
  </div>

however, this barrier is only known if the parser knows about xFolk. 
More explicitly,

  <a rel="tag" href="http://example.com/bar">bar</a>
  <div class="xfolkentry uf">
      <a class="taggedlink" 
href="http://microformats.org">microformats</a> is
      <a rel="tag" href="http://example.com/foo">foo</a>
  </div>

the @class=~"uf" above indicates that the @class=~"xfolkentry" element 
contains a microformat, even if my rel-tag parser doesn't know which one 
or how to interpret it. The benefit is that it knows not to interpret 
rel-tags inside this element if it doesn't understand the class itself.

Problem solved.Now, say that there is a format (hFoo) that can contain 
hCard and any rel-tag inside the hCard should apply to hFoo as well. 
Since hFoo explicitly knows about hCard, it can ignore the @class=~"uf" 
directive attached to the hCard. However, a simple rel-tag processor 
that doesn't understand hCard will not process the element. Thus, 
everyone is happy. ~D

From karl at w3.org  Wed Jan 31 21:45:56 2007
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Wed Jan 31 21:46:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <414D3E43-9267-477F-B82B-926FCBD18D45@lava.net>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C733AB6-E5B1-4BD8-ACCF-9EF20E145741@pobox.com>
	<414D3E43-9267-477F-B82B-926FCBD18D45@lava.net>
Message-ID: <9A39538E-95A0-4818-BB21-0BF3526BA26B@w3.org>


Le 1 f?vr. 2007 ? 04:05, Colin Barrett a ?crit :
> Book titles and the language they are in are not always identical.  
> In general, messing with the meaning of @lang is tricky, as UAs may  
> take that as a hint to use a different encoding.

encoding and languages are not the same beast.
I do not know any agents which does what you suggest. Do you know one?

lang /can/ be used, for example, in the following cases:
   - automatic translation with mixing of languages.
   - User agent (speech) for pronouncing with the right accent.

Some titles stays in their original languages, some titles are  
changed and there's nothing in XHTML which addresses these cases as  
should it be kept in the original language or not when translating.  
Example Japanese names of authors. ITS is an XML effort for doing this

See "How I explained ITS to my child"
http://www.w3.org/QA/2006/10/how_i_explained_its_to_my_chil


-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




From bewest at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 21:48:07 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Wed Jan 31 21:48:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat proposal: dependancy graphs (for
	software)
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701310042v66674f29m142be6ab1c65bb05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BBAE0D.7060704@pallas.us>
	<8ad71be30701310042v66674f29m142be6ab1c65bb05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30701312148x6863b767qaf04ce12364b35cf@mail.gmail.com>

I stumbled upon Danny Ayer's hDoap, which maps DOAP into xhtml.
<http://dannyayers.com:88/xmlns/hdoap/profile/hdoap-index.html>  This
clearly doesn't capture the dependencies which is a big part of your
use case.  I'm interested to see how more real world examples pan out.

-Ben
From timber at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 09:56:49 2007
From: timber at lava.net (Colin Barrett)
Date: Wed Jan 31 22:31:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001>
References: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33875@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it><F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
	<e86992a40701310850g13cb11b7m78c92f47f6e6f47f@mail.gmail.com>
	<000c01c7455c$e379b320$4001a8c0@SETHI001>
Message-ID: <CC5ADAE1-9174-4343-A274-DB2AF1AEEC97@lava.net>

On Jan 31, 2007, at 9:26 AM, Sam Sethi wrote:

> Personally I hope XMPP becomes the interoperable standard for  
> presence and
> then we an build apps on top of this? Twitter, Gmail and Joost are  
> all using
> XMPP and this potentially will allow me to set my presence, mood and  
> status
> in one app and have it ripple through to the others.

I sure hope so.

As an IM client developer (I work on Adium in my free time), I would  
absolutely love it if XMPP were used more -- it's an open standard  
which helps a lot during protocol implementation. It's not quite as  
nice as it could be, since XMPP is by definition highly extensible and  
it's feature set is vast. Trying to develop against a large, moving  
standard is not the most fun thing to do -- although it's a different  
type of not-fun from picking apart OSCAR packets. ;)

Investigating embedding microformats into XMPP is something that  
people have talked a lot about, but nobody has really done. As usual,  
it's those darn existing implementations that we shouldn't break that  
get in the way of progress ;)

-Colin

(FWIW, there is/was an effort to develop a framework on OS X[1] for  
unified presence and messaging on that desktop, but development has  
sputtered and it's not really moving forward).

[1] http://chatkit.net
From karl at w3.org  Wed Jan 31 23:25:10 2007
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Wed Jan 31 23:25:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers
Message-ID: <8434A459-7C78-42F8-BEF6-98E6F0A5D040@w3.org>

Just for the record,
http://ejohn.org/blog/microformats-in-firefox-3/

Open to comments and ideas.
    3.
       Karl Dubost, W3C Said,

       February 1, 2007 @ 2:21 am

       Mike,

       is there a place where you collect the comments, feedback, etc?
       First times are very important and lead to cool things, great  
improvements and painful ties sometimes. So indeed when a browser is  
proposing new UI widgets directly related to the *semantics* of  
content, we have to be very careful.

       At first, I say ?cool, very cool!?. Then, taking a step back,  
I think what about the documents which have been created for the last  
15 years before microformats effort existed. These documents contain  
class names which are probably and most certainly very similar to  
some values defined by microformats community. So there will be  
documents where a UI widget will be activated but not with the  
intended meaning. Basically it is changing the contract between the  
author and the reader by hijacking the intended semantics.

       There /was/ a solution for this profile attribute URIs with  
the URI of the used profile. Problem ahead it seems that some  
developers want to suppress this attribute in HTML document.

       I think there is a possible win-win here. The Mozilla UI  
widget could be activated only when the right URI (profile attribute)  
is really here. (a bit like the doctype switching). It will encourage  
people to use the right URIs, because the effect would be immediate,  
it will not hijack documents previously written. Everyone win.


PS: Another switching mechanism could be used as well if appropriate.





-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan 29 23:12:26 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] WikiProject Microformats
In-Reply-To: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
References: <YsssS7roYJvFFwGJ@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
Message-ID: <RiwORANa$uvFFwX5@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>,
"Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org> writes

>"Can" microformats be added to wiki pages?

Yes; they're already being used on WikiTravel, which uses the same
MediaWiki software. See:

        <http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Microformats>
and:
        <http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Listings>

And, while it may be problematic for users to type raw code into pages
(where other, less aware, users might break it), it could easily be
added to things like the co-ordinates which appear at the top-right of
pages about places, e.g.:

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham>

for Persondata:

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Persondata>

and, eventually, to add "species" markup to Taxoboxes:

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Taxobox>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 27-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jan 29 23:20:39 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authoritative hCards [was RE: Canonical hCards
	(was:	Search on CSS element)]
In-Reply-To: <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
Message-ID: <bzXclJOHHvvFFwG6@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>, John
Allsopp <john@westciv.com> writes

>When rel-license is inside an hReview, it is taken to be associated
>with the review,  rather than the larger fragment it would otherwise
>be associated with (e.g. post or page)
>
>I wonder whether that makes sense more generally - things apply at  the
>finest level of granularity at which it mkes sense - so  rel="bookmark
>self" applies to the microformatted content it is most  directly
>descended from.
>Are there reasons people think this is a bad idea?

Yes - a parser at that level of granularity will understand that, but
not something paring the whole page for licenses, which may have been
written before the more granular uF was created.

I've raised this issue previously, when the example was a page about an
individual, with their genealogy, and an hCard for their dead parent.
Tagging that hCard "deceased", as is currently suggested, would be
interpreted (or at least implied) by some parsers as tagging the subject
of the page as deceased.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jan 30 01:51:27 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] <br> in hCard parsing
Message-ID: <kmhDA4gfUxvFFwBs@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


The hCard parsing page:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing>

says:

        Any occurrence of a <br /> inside the element(s) for a value
        must be treated as a carriage-return (\n) in the respective
        location in the value.

I think that, for some hCard properties, line-breaks should be ignored.
For instance, the correct way to write a UK postal address would be:

        1 Any Street,
        Edgbaston,
        Birmingham
        B99 1XY

but for the v- and hCard, the "locality" is "Edgbaston, Birmingham",
which might be marked up as:

        <span class="street-address">1 Any Street,</span><br>
        <span class="locality">Edgbaston,<br>
        Birmingham</span><br>
        <span class="postal-code">B99 1XY</span>

I contend that "<br>" should be rendered by hCard parsers as a single
space character, except in "free text" fields such as notes.

Would this cause problems anywhere?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 27-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 06:40:34 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:32 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel="me self" to indicate an
	authoritative hCard
In-Reply-To: <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<E44A012D-8F62-465D-AF77-0CF5DD780D8F@randomchaos.com>
	<923a87360701240651i57ca37cfh71120c7522937ed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<35CA15FC-C4E8-4119-8DB9-B03087196C3A@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<4E413EDE-9EA9-4645-BF58-59959F11BDCC@westciv.com>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <VBx$JIQipKwFFwtq@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>, Ben
Ward <lists@ben-ward.co.uk> writes

>>I was initially going to argue that "self me" was tautological,   but
>>in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of
>>bookmark is probably tautological.
>>
>> So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, [?]
>
>+1 from me as well.
>
>Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems from anyone?

"me self" can't be anything but tautological; nor is it appropriate when
referring to third parties. so:

-1

but isn't this sort of voting better done on the wiki than in a mailing
list?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 06:55:38 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process
In-Reply-To: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <GBD7p8Qq3KwFFwu9@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>, Charles
Roper <charles.roper@gmail.com> writes

>I'm very interested in the Species microformat, but the process seems
>to have stalled
[...]
> Could it be that web
>designers and developers of the microformats community do not perceive
>the value of a species microformat in the same way that they can see
>the value of, say, hCard, hReview, XFN, etc.

That's certainly been my perception, in this and some other cases.

We're still waiting, for instance, for Tantek to tell us whether the
evidence *he requested* is sufficient to satisfy his concerns.

I was advised last year, when ready, to say "This should be an official
microformat proposal". I did so on 5 October 2006. What changed, then?
How can it become "an official microformat proposal"?

>The more successful
>microformats seem to be riding on the back of the "social web"
>zeitgeist, with many (most?) being used in this kind of context. I
>don't see species as being of particular interest to the bloggers and
>the other social-networking, mashup-making, digerati of current times.
>Is appealing to this demographic the key in getting a microformat
>developed? I'd appreciate the view of people in this community.

+1

>This brings me to a question about Species. The Species proposal
>doesn't really reflect current mark-up practice but instead represents
>what might be a good way of doing things in the future if authors were
>to start using it.

True, but it also reflects the best way to mark up *currently published*
taxonomical names and hierarchies.

> The vocabulary in the proposal isn't plucked out of
>thin-air, though; it is taken from the taxonomic hierarchy as used by
>biologists.

...and that hierarchy is (tin-hat brigade aside) canonical. Any issues
around species splits/ lumping are catered for, but still fall well
within outside the "80/20" cut-off.

> It seems to be modelled on hCard in this respect, hence my
>cowpaths question. My own feeling is that the current proposal is too
>complex.

Taxonomy is, of necessity, complex. It is therefore necessary to have
equal complexity in a tool which codifies it. That's not to say, though
that it doesn't offer simple uses for cases of simple taxonomy (or
vernacular names) - just as few publishers marking up a simple hCard
need to worry about the 'honorific-suffix' or 'sound' properties.

>The current usage patterns as far as I can see (in the
>majority of cases) either have species names as plain text or
>marked-up with simple <strong> tags, or <em> or <i>. However, I'm not
>adverse to having a rich vocabulary of class names to call on should I
>need them (which 9 times out of 10 I won't), as long as a species name
>can still be marked-up very simply.

This has always been a cornerstone of the proposal

>This is similar to the way in
>which hCard has a rich vocabulary, but can still be very simple.

Likewise!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 07:07:25 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] code microformat
In-Reply-To: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iwCi14RtCLwFFwZi@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<8ca3fbe80701291326j5a39240dla5f61a4b1f73c997@mail.gmail.com>, anders
conbere <aconbere@gmail.com> writes

>I'm having a difficult time getting dialog started on this

I sympathise with that, but take heart form the fact that you're not
alone - all proposals seem to move very slowly (which may be reasonable,
in order that no rushed decisions are made), with long periods of total
inactivity (which are of no help in that regard). Look at "currency" for
an example - I've seen not a single argument against being able t mark
up amounts of money with a uF, and there are innumerable use cases, but
nothing has happened for ages.

Sadly I can't really help you with "code", as all my coding experience
is archaic, and predates the web.

My only expedience of publishing anything like code on the web is with
HTML examples in the uF, and similar, wiki pages; I'm sure you've
already got that covered.

Good luck, though, and keep at it!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 07:39:19 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Species microformat process
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5d3b8c70701300904u372f95d4m377087cda16dedb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dRw9dMUngLwFFwdT@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<8ad71be30701300934t2ee67302j787b289ac595ac43@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin
West <bewest@gmail.com> writes

>On 1/30/07, Charles Roper <charles.roper@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm very interested in the Species microformat, but the process seems
>> to have stalled and I just wanted to poll opinion here as to why that
>> might be. Is it due to a lack of demand?
>
>Charles, I don't know about demand, but I do know that many people
>have stepped up to participate in gathering research and analysis for
>species.

Virtually all of them have been taxonomists, drawn in especially to
discuss this issue.

> Many of them have also been driven away.

There's no way that you can substantiate that false assertion.

>To be honest, the
>use case for the species microformat is a little bit weak.

In what way do you think it could be weak? What information do you think
is lacking?

>It could
>be that if there is a lack of demand, it is due to the weak use case
>and the gap between the research and the proposal.

In what way do you feel there is a gap between the research and the
proposal? How do you fee that the two could be more closely linked?

>(The use case
>essentially describes a hyperlinking behaviour that is already present
>and used on many sites.)

Such as?

>This is just my own opinion though.
>
>> It seems that the successful
>> microformats have been developed, in the main, by web designers and
>> developers for web designers and developers. Could it be that web
>> designers and developers of the microformats community do not perceive
>> the value of a species microformat in the same way that they can see
>> the value of, say, hCard, hReview, XFN, etc. The more successful
>> microformats seem to be riding on the back of the "social web"
>> zeitgeist, with many (most?) being used in this kind of context. I
>> don't see species as being of particular interest to the bloggers and
>> the other social-networking, mashup-making, digerati of current times.
>> Is appealing to this demographic the key in getting a microformat
>> developed? I'd appreciate the view of people in this community.
>>
>
>If I think I know what you mean here, I disagree a bit.  Who, what,
>when, how, where are all answered by these microformats.  They are
>extremely common, and are probably the first data types to be
>represented by any new technology.  For example: how old is the
>calendar compared to taxonomy?

I'll wager that people named plants and animals long before they ever
had a concept of hours or months, let alone started recording dates or
keeping diaries.

>hcard describes "who", xfn describes
>"how are they related", hcalendar describes "when".... Again, this is
>my own opinion, and I don't have any evidence.

[...]
>I do think the kind of path vcard
>took is qualitatively different than the one species is taking.

How so?

>> The vocabulary in the proposal isn't plucked out of
>> thin-air, though; it is taken from the taxonomic hierarchy as used by
>> biologists. It seems to be modelled on hCard in this respect, hence my
>> cowpaths question. My own feeling is that the current proposal is too
>> complex. The current usage patterns as far as I can see (in the
>> majority of cases) either have species names as plain text or
>> marked-up with simple <strong> tags, or <em> or <i>. However, I'm not
>> adverse to having a rich vocabulary of class names to call on should I
>> need them (which 9 times out of 10 I won't), as long as a species name
>> can still be marked-up very simply. This is similar to the way in
>> which hCard has a rich vocabulary, but can still be very simple.
>>
>
>Charles, this is a great analysis.  This matches my observings, at
><http://microformats.org/wiki/species-examples-regrouped>.  I think
>the format would benefit greatly from taking a fresh look at the
>examples collected.  It look to me like there should be two pieces.
>One should be the way authors mention species in text, the other
>should be how authoritative sources represent the information about a
>species.  In any case, the first behaviour can be accomplished,
>perhaps entirely, by using tagging techniques.

I strongly disagree with that latter assertion; but please feel free to
convince me - and everyone else - with examples.

If you do, please bear in mind the mooted extension as a "record" or
"sighting" format for combining a species name, with a place, date and
individual's details (age, sex, etc.)

>Perhaps the in-depth
>use of unambiguous names can be used by a second format intended for
>publishers of the authoritative information.

Why would you want to differentiate between two types of publishing? How
would you decide where to draw the line?


I would also refer people, again to Note 4, on:

  <http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/papers/rothenburg-19980412.html>

uFs have given us the first three missing items - and were now debating
the fourth.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 08:41:03 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Authenticity of Authoritative hCard (was: Re:
	Vote	on this: rel="me self" to indicate an authoritative hCard)
In-Reply-To: <923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401c73f61$de549050$69fa030a@andrieuhome>
	<1bc4603e0701301150r53f839bwc59face093b72342@mail.gmail.com>
	<F5FFDD93-85AD-41B6-830A-F8F4B8EA4ABF@westciv.com>
	<31CE5291-B702-4A6E-A86B-D8F1328C7A76@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<e86992a40701310346s679ed71x242e7408059bf8e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<B290BC85-CF7A-4211-84C8-777D657A6AE0@lava.net>
	<AB695DEF-9BB4-4BD7-8730-39065899EF36@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<21e523c20701310637q7d0a5c6fx4790b484469b8b21@mail.gmail.com>
	<923a87360701310649h3d054d78k45f8c1a6de18602c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4056BE37-93ED-4236-AE61-5DB444B5972C@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CVO68bafaMwFFwvP@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<923a87360701310750p3808ce6bp138e9ca7dfdeb7e6@mail.gmail.com>, Ara
Pehlivanian <ara.pehlivanian@gmail.com> writes

>what if someone registers ben-ward.net and puts up a fake
>card on that site.

Perhaps we need a "class="pgp-public-key"  property for hCard?

;-)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 08:58:23 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <VUyv8EcvqMwFFwsH@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>, Michael
McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> writes

>- We only have two examples of pages marking up the language on the
>web - W3C and Amazon.com.

Might that be because most if not all of the examples are from
English-language websites, and that English-speakers are less likely to
be aware of language of an issue, or to be working on second languages?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 09:01:37 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hMood/hPresence?
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40701310850g13cb11b7m78c92f47f6e6f47f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33875@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
	<F5F8BEB3F2C54240999C08F4D455D28801E33878@PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it>
	<e86992a40701310850g13cb11b7m78c92f47f6e6f47f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Y0lsEtcxtMwFFwPu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<e86992a40701310850g13cb11b7m78c92f47f6e6f47f@mail.gmail.com>, Frances
Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes

>As for an activity (if this is what you may be suggesting by
>presense), the same would apply (is currently <a
>href="http://www.wikipedia.com/skydiving" rel="tag">sky diving</a> and
><a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/happy" rel="tag">happy</a> about
>it).

How would you differentiate between something written *about*
sky-diving, and one written *while*, er, sky-diving?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
            *  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  <http://www.no2id.net/>
            *  Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
            *  Are you using Microformats, yet: <http://microformats.org/> ?
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 10:40:13 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
In-Reply-To: <d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d4fa3cf70701310055j77b87d79r5e2d1e4c0b0d4435@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780701310344q56f80543w48c8c15a8de6200f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <K5K436jNKOwFFwMb@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<d4fa3cf70701311017v17b6fc29le61190aa556f8956@mail.gmail.com>, Michael
McCracken <michael.mccracken@gmail.com> writes

>If we use @lang, doesn't that mean we're specifying the language of
>the words in the hCite element

Yes (or the sub-element to which the attribute applied). So:

        <cite lang="de">Mein Kampf</cite>

would be correct, even when referring to an English translation, but:

        <cite lang="en">Verwenden von Microformats durch Brian
        Suda<\cite>

would not.

> but not necessarily the language of
>the thing we're citing?

In cases where you're citing an on-line source (and of course many
resources are on paper), you can use hreflang:

        <cite>
          <a href="www.ad.nl/" hreflang="nl">Algemeen Dagblad</a>
        </cite>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jan 31 13:33:06 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Feb  1 09:11:44 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] WikiProject Microformats
In-Reply-To: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
References: <YsssS7roYJvFFwGJ@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>
Message-ID: <2UNnMTuSsQwFFwpm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601560947@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>,
"Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org> writes

>"Can" microformats be added to wiki pages?

Further to my last reply, timed 07:12 yesterday (which has yet to reach
this list), a Wikipedia template has been modified to publish a "geo"
microformat. I hope to have a live example shortly.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                 <http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                        Welcome to the 28-day week!