From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk  Sun Jul  1 03:57:27 2007
From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (James O'Donnell)
Date: Sun Jul  1 03:57:30 2007
Subject: hCard history and extensions (was Re: [uf-discuss] Date of Death
	in hCard)
In-Reply-To: <CE20905B-92D2-41F6-9EA3-F0E74AF3E801@adactio.com>
References: <C2A95169.912C2%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<CE20905B-92D2-41F6-9EA3-F0E74AF3E801@adactio.com>
Message-ID: <0158D5A7-0487-405A-B4E5-B0D8C97F942C@eatyourgreens.org.uk>


On 30 Jun 2007, at 15:11, Jeremy Keith wrote:

> I don't believe that hCard needs to be extended to accommodate a  
> "date of death" field. I think that we already have a microformat  
> to deal with this use case; it just doesn't happen to be hCard.
>
> The dtend field in hCalendar seems like the perfect fit for this.  
> Microformats are intended to be embeddable within one another: an  
> hCalendar within an hCard (or visa-versa, depending on how you look  
> at it) allows for all the desired information to be marked up:
>
> <p class="hcard vevent">
>   <span class="fn summary">Charles Darwin</span> was
>   born on <abbr title="1809-02-12" class="dtstart bday">February  
> 12, 1809</abbr>
>   and died on <abbr title="1882-04-19" class="dtend">April 19,1882</ 
> abbr>.
> </p>

I don't quite understand - I can see that April 19, 1882 is the end  
date of an event, but how do I know that the event in question is the  
life of Charles Darwin? ie. how does a parser figure out that Darwin  
died on 19th April 1882 from the markup above? Is a date of death  
defined as a dtend which has been immediately preceded by a date with  
a class of bday?

I think I'm missing something here.
Jim

Jim O'Donnell
jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk
http://eatyourgreens.org.uk
http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens



From jeremy at adactio.com  Sun Jul  1 06:21:41 2007
From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith)
Date: Sun Jul  1 06:21:46 2007
Subject: hCard history and extensions (was Re: [uf-discuss] Date of Death
	in hCard)
In-Reply-To: <0158D5A7-0487-405A-B4E5-B0D8C97F942C@eatyourgreens.org.uk>
References: <C2A95169.912C2%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<CE20905B-92D2-41F6-9EA3-F0E74AF3E801@adactio.com>
	<0158D5A7-0487-405A-B4E5-B0D8C97F942C@eatyourgreens.org.uk>
Message-ID: <A58A6C69-BF8D-4FE0-B020-A7B68C7C9DCC@adactio.com>

Jim asked:
>> <p class="hcard vevent">
>>   <span class="fn summary">Charles Darwin</span> was
>>   born on <abbr title="1809-02-12" class="dtstart bday">February  
>> 12, 1809</abbr>
>>   and died on <abbr title="1882-04-19" class="dtend">April  
>> 19,1882</abbr>.
>> </p>
>>
>
> I don't quite understand - I can see that April 19, 1882 is the end  
> date of an event, but how do I know that the event in question is  
> the life of Charles Darwin? ie. how does a parser figure out that  
> Darwin died on 19th April 1882 from the markup above?

Because the "summary" for the vevent is "Charles Darwin".

>  Is a date of death defined as a dtend which has been immediately  
> preceded by a date with a class of bday?

It isn't necessary to make any such inference because all the  
necessary details for determining the start and the end of the life  
are already provided entirely within the hCalendar data. A person's  
life is an event.

hCard: the person "Charles Darwin" has a formatted name of Charles  
Darwin (given-name: Charles, family-name: Darwin).

hCalendar: the event "Charles Darwin" has a start date of February  
12, 1809 (dtstart: 1809-02-12) and an end date of April 19th, 1882  
(dtend: 1882-04-19).

The personal information is contained within the hCard (first name,  
last name). The event details are contained within the hCalendar  
(start, end). There is some crossover (the formatted name of the  
person is the same as the summary of the event) but that's absolutely  
fine: microformats are designed to be embeddable.

As long as you use the right format for the right data, everything  
can be encoded just fine. The problems arise when you try to use one  
single format to encode everything.

It kind of reminds of the tools we use for front-end development:  
HTML, CSS, JavaScript. As long as you use the right tool for the job  
(HTML for structure, CSS for presentation, and JavaScript for  
behaviour), then everything is hunky-dory. The problems start when  
you try to get one tool to do all the work. If I had a penny for  
every time I heard people ask for "CSS-only" solutions for drop-down  
menus and other behavioural effects, I'd be a rich man.

With hCard (and vcard) the presence of the "bday" field is a bleed- 
over from event data (akin to the :hover pseudo-class in CSS). If  
anything, rather than talking about adding "date of death", we should  
be discussing the removal of "date of birth" (not that I'm seriously  
suggesting that).

Anyway, my point is this: what you are trying to represent with date  
of birth, date of death and lifespan is not contact information, it  
is event information (start, end, duration). Use the right format for  
the data and you can encode what you want without extending either  
format.

As for parsers, I think it would be relatively trivial to have a rule  
that states "If the fn of an hCard (which is not also an org) is  
equal to the summary of an hCalendar, the dtstart and dtend dates of  
that hCalendar represent the lifespan of that person." The presence  
of combined "bday" and "dtstart" values in a class attribute *could*  
be used to reinforce that assumption.

Bye,

Jeremy

-- 
Jeremy Keith

a d a c t i o

http://adactio.com/


From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Sun Jul  1 14:33:35 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Sun Jul  1 14:33:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Confused about telephone numbers in hCard
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83E12@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
Message-ID: <009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>

From: "Rickards, Julian (NDM)" <julian.rickards@ontario.ca>
> What I am doing is trying to make my markup work in Outlook 2003 by
> exporting from Tails Export.
>
> I started with:
>
> <div class="tel"><abbr class="type" title="work">Toll-free Phone:</abbr>
> <span class="value">1-800-670-5861</span></div>

This is the correct way to markup that you're after.

<snip>

> Why is this so hard to do?

The trouble you're facing is that Tails is at version 0.3. The author says
" Thanks all for the feedback. I'm trying to construct a list . . ."

At this stage, Tails is incomplete and you will either need to be paitent 
until it works more properly, or for the interim, find some other solution 
than Tails.

-- 
Paul Wilkins 

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jul  1 15:32:10 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jul  1 15:33:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Confused about telephone numbers in hCard
In-Reply-To: <009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83E12@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <pPxQKoLqtCiGFw2+@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>, Paul Wilkins 
<paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes

>> <div class="tel"><abbr class="type" title="work">Toll-free Phone:</abbr>
>> <span class="value">1-800-670-5861</span></div>
>
>This is the correct way to markup that you're after.

According to the spec, certainly; but it runs up against the known 
problem of abusing the abbr element:

<http://microformats.org/wiki/accessibility-issues#abbr-design-pattern>

<http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Sun Jul  1 17:21:18 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Sun Jul  1 17:21:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Confused about telephone numbers in hCard
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83E12@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca><009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<pPxQKoLqtCiGFw2+@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <000701c7bc3e$e9542ab0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>

From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> Paul Wilkins <paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes
>
>>> <div class="tel"><abbr class="type" title="work">Toll-free Phone:</abbr>
>>> <span class="value">1-800-670-5861</span></div>
>>
>>This is the correct way to markup that you're after.
>
> According to the spec, certainly; but it runs up against the known problem 
> of abusing the abbr element:

According to the maxim: "People first, machines second" how should the 
following text be marked up so that it works with existing tools?

Toll-free Phone: 1-800-670-5861

-- 
Paul Wilkins 

From supercanadian at gmail.com  Sun Jul  1 17:58:08 2007
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Sun Jul  1 17:58:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Reading Microformats from a Flash app?
Message-ID: <84ce626f0707011758w619d37a9gc46a73cc94054daf@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Does anyone here have experience reading Microformats and semantic
HTML from a Flash app?

Specifically, reading them from the HTML page the Flash app is embedded into?


I know there's various techniques for communicating to and from the
Flash app and the HTML page the Flash app is contained within... but
what have people found is the "best" method?


Thanks.

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>


                  All the Vlogging News on One Page
                         http://vlograzor.com/
From scott at randomchaos.com  Sun Jul  1 19:34:28 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sun Jul  1 19:34:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Confused about telephone numbers in hCard
In-Reply-To: <000701c7bc3e$e9542ab0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83E12@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca><009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<pPxQKoLqtCiGFw2+@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<000701c7bc3e$e9542ab0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <CDB439AB-9C50-4777-999E-7EDD4A4EE667@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 1, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote:

>>>> <div class="tel"><abbr class="type" title="work">Toll-free  
>>>> Phone:</abbr>
>>>> <span class="value">1-800-670-5861</span></div>
>>>
>>> This is the correct way to markup that you're after.
>>
>> According to the spec, certainly; but it runs up against the known  
>> problem of abusing the abbr element:
>
> According to the maxim: "People first, machines second" how should  
> the following text be marked up so that it works with existing tools?
>
> Toll-free Phone: 1-800-670-5861

If it doesn't bother you for humans using screen readers to hear that  
as "work 1-800-670-5861," the markup above is fine.  If that does  
bother you, the following is valid, though it doesn't specify to  
machines that it's a work number:

<div class="tel">Toll-free Phone: <span class="value">1-800-670-5861</ 
span></div>

Peace,
Scott

From thom at ts0.com  Mon Jul  2 03:10:34 2007
From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon)
Date: Mon Jul  2 03:10:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Reading Microformats from a Flash app?
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0707011758w619d37a9gc46a73cc94054daf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84ce626f0707011758w619d37a9gc46a73cc94054daf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4688CF1A.1060201@ts0.com>

write some js to use the dom to find the microformats and pass to flash 
via the externalinterface object.

Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone here have experience reading Microformats and semantic
> HTML from a Flash app?
>
> Specifically, reading them from the HTML page the Flash app is 
> embedded into?
>
>
> I know there's various techniques for communicating to and from the
> Flash app and the HTML page the Flash app is contained within... but
> what have people found is the "best" method?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
From bewest at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 11:41:08 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Mon Jul  2 11:41:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>

http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
and human friendliness".

One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
why is it worth publishing?

-Ben

On 6/30/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Several editors on Wikipedia are calling for the modification of the
> templates which implement microformat, to use hidden metadata.
>
> I thought there was a prohibition on hidden metadata in the specs, or at
> least somewhere on the wiki, but all I Can find now is:
>
>         visible data is much better for humans than invisible metadata
> on:
>
>  <http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles>
>
> Can someone remind me what I'm missing, please?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From mircury at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 11:44:14 2007
From: mircury at gmail.com (Brandon Richards)
Date: Mon Jul  2 11:44:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar question
Message-ID: <c1ee98c00707021144j3035180bg75ba167320af2553@mail.gmail.com>

I was wondering if anyone would know how to handle an hCalendar event
that spans 2 days with 3 sessions that have no end times?

Such as,

A Special Event
London, England
Sept. 21 @ 7:00pm, Sept. 22 8:00am & 7:00pm

I haven't found a good example and I'm not sure which way to go with
this as in create 3 single entries or combine it somehow.

-- 
Brandon Neil Richards
mailto:mircury@gmail.com
http://www.brandonrichards.com/
From costello at mitre.org  Mon Jul  2 11:57:57 2007
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Mon Jul  2 11:58:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar question
In-Reply-To: <c1ee98c00707021144j3035180bg75ba167320af2553@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1ee98c00707021144j3035180bg75ba167320af2553@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601B64DF1@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>

How about this:

<div class="vevent">
    <div class="summary">A Special Event</div>
    <div class="location adr">
        <span class="locality">London</span>, <span
class="region">England</span>
    </div>
    <abbr class="rdate" title="2007-09-21T19:00:00Z, 
                               2007-09-22T19:00:00Z,
                               2007-09-22T20:00:00Z">
           Sept. 21 @ 7:00pm, Sept. 22 8:00am & 7:00pm
    </abbr>    
</div> 

You might find this tutorial helpful:
http://www.xfront.com/microformats/hCalendar_part2.html

/Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of
Brandon Richards
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:44 PM
To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar question

I was wondering if anyone would know how to handle an hCalendar event
that spans 2 days with 3 sessions that have no end times?

Such as,

A Special Event
London, England
Sept. 21 @ 7:00pm, Sept. 22 8:00am & 7:00pm

I haven't found a good example and I'm not sure which way to go with
this as in create 3 single entries or combine it somehow.

-- 
Brandon Neil Richards
mailto:mircury@gmail.com
http://www.brandonrichards.com/
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From microformats at kaply.com  Mon Jul  2 12:06:13 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Mon Jul  2 12:06:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Confused about telephone numbers in hCard
In-Reply-To: <009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83E12@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0707021206i45bc3c59tf0f6d4111552a68a@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/1/07, Paul Wilkins <paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> The trouble you're facing is that Tails is at version 0.3. The author says
> " Thanks all for the feedback. I'm trying to construct a list . . ."
>
> At this stage, Tails is incomplete and you will either need to be paitent
> until it works more properly, or for the interim, find some other solution
> than Tails.

Just to be clear. This is not really a bug in Tails, it's a bug in the
XSLT engine in Firefox. Since Tails uses XSLT, it has this problem.
The problem has to do with case sensitivity in nodenames if I remember
correctly

Operator uses JavaScript to parse the DOM, so we don't have the problem.

Mike
From redux at splintered.co.uk  Mon Jul  2 14:13:50 2007
From: redux at splintered.co.uk (Patrick H. Lauke)
Date: Mon Jul  2 14:13:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46896A8E.1050006@splintered.co.uk>

Benjamin West wrote:
> http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
> and human friendliness".
> 
> One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
> why is it worth publishing?

Because tools/extensions expose them to end users in a way that is far 
more user/human friendly than merely making the raw metadata visible. 
Whether or not authors "forget" to update the metadata, or purposely try 
to game it, if it's not visible is an authoring/policy issue, not a 
technical issue that should be solved by a language's specification 
("because some bad people tried to do bad things with it, we're just not 
giving you the opportunity, full stop").

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
______________________________________________________________
re?dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
______________________________________________________________
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
From scott at randomchaos.com  Mon Jul  2 15:03:56 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Mon Jul  2 15:04:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <46896A8E.1050006@splintered.co.uk>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<46896A8E.1050006@splintered.co.uk>
Message-ID: <EC5064C0-74D1-4DD9-B6F0-1F83248B7E74@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:13 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

> Benjamin West wrote:
>> http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
>> and human friendliness".
>> One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
>> why is it worth publishing?
>
> Because tools/extensions expose them to end users in a way that is  
> far more user/human friendly than merely making the raw metadata  
> visible. Whether or not authors "forget" to update the metadata, or  
> purposely try to game it, if it's not visible is an authoring/ 
> policy issue, not a technical issue that should be solved by a  
> language's specification ("because some bad people tried to do bad  
> things with it, we're just not giving you the opportunity, full  
> stop").

Microformats are built around an assumption of visibility, so if a  
publisher doesn't want something visible, they probably don't want  
microformats.  It's tempting to argue about the virtues of  
visibility, but I think it's ultimately a waste of everyone's time.   
For those of us who value visible data, there's no shortage already  
out there waiting to have microformats applied.  And for those of us  
who value invisible data, there are other formats better suited to  
that than microformats.

Peace,
Scott

From redux at splintered.co.uk  Mon Jul  2 15:20:06 2007
From: redux at splintered.co.uk (Patrick H. Lauke)
Date: Mon Jul  2 15:20:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <EC5064C0-74D1-4DD9-B6F0-1F83248B7E74@randomchaos.com>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>	<46896A8E.1050006@splintered.co.uk>
	<EC5064C0-74D1-4DD9-B6F0-1F83248B7E74@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <46897A16.5060901@splintered.co.uk>

Scott Reynen wrote:

> Microformats are built around an assumption of visibility, so if a 
> publisher doesn't want something visible, they probably don't want 
> microformats.  It's tempting to argue about the virtues of visibility, 
> but I think it's ultimately a waste of everyone's time.  For those of us 
> who value visible data, there's no shortage already out there waiting to 
> have microformats applied.  And for those of us who value invisible 
> data, there are other formats better suited to that than microformats.

Spare me the high and mighty rhetoric. By your reasoning, sites like 
Flickr, which hide geo data by default from the eyes of normal users, 
are breaking your holy tenets and should therefore not use microformats?
Please...

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
______________________________________________________________
re?dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
______________________________________________________________
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
From tdrake at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Jul  2 15:26:33 2007
From: tdrake at yahoo-inc.com (Ted Drake)
Date: Mon Jul  2 15:26:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <EC5064C0-74D1-4DD9-B6F0-1F83248B7E74@randomchaos.com>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk><8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com><46896A8E.1050006@splintered.co.uk>
	<EC5064C0-74D1-4DD9-B6F0-1F83248B7E74@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <005601c7bcf8$0bd9e890$a7dd15ac@ds.corp.yahoo.com>

I've used some invisible data with micro formatting on Yahoo! pages. 

Sometimes, you build a page a module at a time and you don't need to
visually repeat information in the microformatted module when it is present
elsewhere on the page. So, I use a class="microformatdetail" 
.microformatdetail {display:none}. 

So, the answer is that I'm not trying to hide the information, I'm just
trying to avoid visual repetition without having to resort to the proposed
include pattern.

Ted Drake
Yahoo! Tech, Finance, Food, Answers, and soon European Finance...



-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Scott
Reynen
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:04 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats

On Jul 2, 2007, at 3:13 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

> Benjamin West wrote:
>> http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
>> and human friendliness".
>> One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
>> why is it worth publishing?
>
> Because tools/extensions expose them to end users in a way that is  
> far more user/human friendly than merely making the raw metadata  
> visible. Whether or not authors "forget" to update the metadata, or  
> purposely try to game it, if it's not visible is an authoring/ 
> policy issue, not a technical issue that should be solved by a  
> language's specification ("because some bad people tried to do bad  
> things with it, we're just not giving you the opportunity, full  
> stop").

Microformats are built around an assumption of visibility, so if a  
publisher doesn't want something visible, they probably don't want  
microformats.  It's tempting to argue about the virtues of  
visibility, but I think it's ultimately a waste of everyone's time.   
For those of us who value visible data, there's no shortage already  
out there waiting to have microformats applied.  And for those of us  
who value invisible data, there are other formats better suited to  
that than microformats.

Peace,
Scott

_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From bewest at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 15:31:54 2007
From: bewest at gmail.com (Benjamin West)
Date: Mon Jul  2 15:31:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <46896A8E.1050006@splintered.co.uk>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<46896A8E.1050006@splintered.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8ad71be30707021531k5eb42892k73f4f93c50e986b5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote:
> Benjamin West wrote:
> > http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
> > and human friendliness".
> >
> > One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
> > why is it worth publishing?
>
> Because tools/extensions expose them to end users in a way that is far
> more user/human friendly than merely making the raw metadata visible.
> Whether or not authors "forget" to update the metadata, or purposely try
> to game it, if it's not visible is an authoring/policy issue, not a
> technical issue that should be solved by a language's specification
> ("because some bad people tried to do bad things with it, we're just not
> giving you the opportunity, full stop").
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke

I'm not sure what you mean.  We aren't talking about raw data.  We are talking
about data that has been marked up.  In addition, no one has said there is
some kind of mutually exclusive relationship between authors of visible vs
invisible data.  FWIW, nothing in microformats actually prohibits invisible
metadata.  It's certainly possible to set display:none.  In fact, the
phrasing quoted by Andy was "visible data is much better for humans than
invisible metadata".

-Ben
From faaborg at mozilla.com  Mon Jul  2 15:42:23 2007
From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg)
Date: Mon Jul  2 15:42:32 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A808BE7C-ABA1-4523-862C-8CA0C0B60003@mozilla.com>

> One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
> why is it worth publishing?

I can imagine Web designers wanting to associate invisible metadata  
with a button (that says "Add to Calendar" or "Map"), so that a  
microformat aware Web browser would detect the metadata and register  
down clicks on the button as acting on the metadata.  This  
information would likely appear elsewhere on the page (probably also  
using microformats), but the button provides a visual affordance for  
the action.

In our current designs, we are considering changing the mouse cursor  
when the user hovers over microformatted content, but that doesn't  
present the user with any indication that they can act on the data  
until after they have moved the mouse over it.

So in this particular case, I think leveraging invisible metadata  
makes the interface more usable overall.

-Alex


On Jul 2, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Benjamin West wrote:

> http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
> and human friendliness".
>
> One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
> why is it worth publishing?
>
> -Ben
>
> On 6/30/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Several editors on Wikipedia are calling for the modification of the
>> templates which implement microformat, to use hidden metadata.
>>
>> I thought there was a prohibition on hidden metadata in the specs,  
>> or at
>> least somewhere on the wiki, but all I Can find now is:
>>
>>         visible data is much better for humans than invisible  
>> metadata
>> on:
>>
>>  <http://microformats.org/wiki/ 
>> microformats#the_microformats_principles>
>>
>> Can someone remind me what I'm missing, please?
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jul  2 15:57:23 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jul  2 15:59:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ZE$sozOTLYiGFwQk@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>, Benjamin 
West <bewest@gmail.com> writes

>On 6/30/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Several editors on Wikipedia are calling for the modification of the
>> templates which implement microformat, to use hidden metadata.
>>
>> I thought there was a prohibition on hidden metadata in the specs, or at
>> least somewhere on the wiki, but all I Can find now is:
>>
>>         visible data is much better for humans than invisible metadata
>> on:
>>
>>  <http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles>
>>
>> Can someone remind me what I'm missing, please?

>http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
>and human friendliness".

Thank you, but I was after something canonical, not an op-ed.

>> --
>> Andy Mabbett

Please don't top-post, and please don't quote sigs. Thank you.


-- 
Andy Mabbett
From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Mon Jul  2 16:37:49 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Mon Jul  2 16:37:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk><8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ZE$sozOTLYiGFwQk@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <001001c7bd02$009b4af0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>

From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> Benjamin West <bewest@gmail.com> writes
>>> I thought there was a prohibition on hidden metadata in the specs, or at
>>> least somewhere on the wiki, but all I Can find now is:
>>>         visible data is much better for humans than invisible metadata
>>>  <http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles>
>>>
>>> Can someone remind me what I'm missing, please?
>
>>http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 "Principles of visibility
>>and human friendliness".
>
> Thank you, but I was after something canonical, not an op-ed.
> Please don't top-post, and please don't quote sigs. Thank you.

You could try the FAQ.
http://microformats.org/wiki/faq

Where it says:

Q. Given that Google now looks at hidden content as potential spam, will 
invisible microformats be considered spam?

A. It is advisable not to hide information in your site, regardless of 
whether it is microformated or not. Microformats provide a mechanism for 
marking up visible content. Any mechanism for embedding invisible or hidden 
content risks being considered spam due to the fact that invisible 
(meta)data inevitably ends up being abused. Avoid invisible (meta)data. 
Publish visible data.

-- 
Paul Wilkins 

From redux at splintered.co.uk  Mon Jul  2 16:51:40 2007
From: redux at splintered.co.uk (Patrick H. Lauke)
Date: Mon Jul  2 16:51:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <001001c7bd02$009b4af0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk><8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>	<ZE$sozOTLYiGFwQk@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<001001c7bd02$009b4af0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>

Paul Wilkins wrote:

> You could try the FAQ.
> http://microformats.org/wiki/faq
> 
> Where it says:
> 
> Q. Given that Google now looks at hidden content as potential spam, will 
> invisible microformats be considered spam?
> 
> A. It is advisable not to hide information in your site, regardless of 
> whether it is microformated or not. Microformats provide a mechanism for 
> marking up visible content. Any mechanism for embedding invisible or 
> hidden content risks being considered spam due to the fact that 
> invisible (meta)data inevitably ends up being abused. Avoid invisible 
> (meta)data. Publish visible data.

FUD. Will Google attempt to parse the complex interplay of CSS and 
(X)HTML for each page to determine if content is somehow hidden? No. 
Currently, the way it works is that somebody reports a page to Google, 
and their team investigates it (cfr the case of BMW in Germany a while 
ago). There's human judgement involved, and not an automated "hidden = 
spam" algorithm.

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
______________________________________________________________
re?dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
______________________________________________________________
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jul  3 00:45:27 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jul  3 00:45:31 2007
Subject: hCard history and extensions (was Re: [uf-discuss] Date of
	Death in hCard)
In-Reply-To: <CE20905B-92D2-41F6-9EA3-F0E74AF3E801@adactio.com>
Message-ID: <C2AF331E.915F7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 6/30/07 7:11 AM, "Jeremy Keith" <jeremy@adactio.com> wrote:

> I don't believe that hCard needs to be extended to accommodate a
> "date of death" field. I think that we already have a microformat to
> deal with this use case; it just doesn't happen to be hCard.
> 
> The dtend field in hCalendar seems like the perfect fit for this.
> Microformats are intended to be embeddable within one another: an
> hCalendar within an hCard (or visa-versa, depending on how you look
> at it) allows for all the desired information to be marked up:
> 
> <p class="hcard vevent">

Minor correction (s/hcard/vcard in the class attribute)

  <p class="vcard vevent">

>  <span class="fn summary">Charles Darwin</span> was
>  born on <abbr title="1809-02-12" class="dtstart bday">February 12,
> 1809</abbr>
>  and died on <abbr title="1882-04-19" class="dtend">April 19,1882</
> abbr>.
> </p>

Otherwise, this is an excellent idea Jeremy.

Perhaps you could add it to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming
as a suggested use of hCard with hCalendar?

Thanks,

Tantek

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul  3 01:25:11 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul  3 01:26:54 2007
Subject: hCard history and extensions (was Re: [uf-discuss] Date of	Death
	in hCard)
In-Reply-To: <C2AF331E.915F7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <CE20905B-92D2-41F6-9EA3-F0E74AF3E801@adactio.com>
	<C2AF331E.915F7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <x7yW3ARnfgiGFwWe@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C2AF331E.915F7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>  <p class="vcard vevent">
>
>>  <span class="fn summary">Charles Darwin</span> was
>>  born on <abbr title="1809-02-12" class="dtstart bday">February 12,
>> 1809</abbr>
>>  and died on <abbr title="1882-04-19" class="dtend">April 19,1882</
>> abbr>.
>> </p>
>
>Otherwise, this is an excellent idea Jeremy.

It's far less optimal than the proposed addition to hCard, for a number
of reasons:

   *    It encodes the lifetime as single event, rather than as separate
        birth and death events.

   *    It is far less suited to use in templated data (based on my
        experience of adding hCard in Wikipedia, but the principles are
        transferable), as one needs to know that there is a DoB or DoD
        to include, before adding the "vevent" class; thereby making it
        harder if not impossible to implement

   *    It requires more classes.

   *    What if we know the DoD, but not the DoB (a common occurrence,
        in the years before mandatory birth registration, and thus in
        genealogy and historical biography; see:
         <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven>), for example.

   *    It makes nesting more complex, if the hCard is within an
        hCalendar, say for an event celebrating Darwin's 150th birthday.

   *    It has a disparity in the way DoB and DoD are recorded; one has
        two classes (one specific to DoB); the other only one class.
        Publishers therefore have to learn and remember two different
        techniques.

   *    It requires the "dtend" to be encoded as a day later than the
        actual death (it's wrong in the above example). If Charles and
        Tantek missed that, what chance do novice authors have?

Do we really think this method is going to be easier for lay publishers
to adopt, than a simple DoD field in hCard?

-- 
Andy Mabbett

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jul  3 02:06:44 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jul  3 02:06:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] "abbr" and accessibility - a work around.
In-Reply-To: <FC55EE15-EC77-4781-86B7-CC570B8A1D5F@apple.com>
Message-ID: <C2AF5F58.916A6%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 6/25/07 12:39 PM, "James Craig" <jcraig@apple.com> wrote:

> Apologies for not responding sooner. I've been working on a test case
> script for all of the possibilities listed on the assistive-
> technology-abbr-results pages, but side work always falls behind work
> work.

<snip>

> 
> http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results

James,

Thanks for the update, and I can certainly understand/appreciate the
challenge of balancing various sources of "work".

Your work on documenting the different possibilities, your scientific
observations/hypotheses about the possibilities, and a test case script for
them is very much appreciated (I'm sure by many, whether explicitly
acknowledged or not).

Tantek

From marc.van.coillie at eife-l.org  Tue Jul  3 04:26:48 2007
From: marc.van.coillie at eife-l.org (Marc Van Coillie)
Date: Tue Jul  3 04:27:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Participation MicroFormat community to Human Capital
	and Social Technology Summit and ePortfolio conference
Message-ID: <0a1101c7bd65$0c2f9520$0301a8c0@EIFELMARC>

Dear all,
we are organizing next October in Maastricht (Netherlands) an international 
summit dedicated to Human Capital, Digital Identity and ePortfolio:
http://events.eife-l.org/HCSIT2007

I would like to know if someone from your community could be interested to 
participate especialy to organise with us a workshop session in order to 
look at a possible micro-format for ePortfolio approach.

Regarding hResume one of your colleague from the French community 
(Christophe Ducamp) has already participated in our CV interoperability 
seminar last June with a very interesting presentation. hResume interop 
demonstration is still planned during the Plugfest demos linked with HR 
technology sessions in this summit but the concept of ePortfolio is more 
larger than only hResume part and it may be usefull to dedicate a full 
workshop session for this.
Here is the link to presentations and articles from the Cv interop seminar:
http://events.eife-l.org/services/events/2007/cv2007-proceedings/view
And a link to a demo webservice client we have build that is able to convert 
hResume data from LinkedIn to HR-XML Europortfolio / Europass CV:
http://demo.eife-l.org/cv/ws1/CVTransformService.html

Please don't hesistate to contact me.
Marc Van Coillie
CTO
EIfEL

From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  3 04:41:38 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Tue Jul  3 04:42:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
Message-ID: <C2AFF482.5394%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>

It's been noted elsewhere but I don't think here

Artist and release pages on bbc.co.uk/music now feature hcard, hreview and
rel-licence ufs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artist/m6qv/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/4b8c/



For anyone interested in metrics adding them took about an hour. Badgering
about with deployment took considerably longer *sigh*

All release reviews are now distributed under creative commons
(non-commercial). This release also marks the first fruits of our link-up
with MusicBrainz:

http://blog.musicbrainz.org/archives/2007/06/the_bbc_partner.html

It's not much but as a great man once said... it's not nothing

<aside>Because the reviews don't have their own urls but do contain hcards
with urls both tails and operator get a little confused when extracting the
hreview. See mails passim</aside>


http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
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From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul  3 04:49:55 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul  3 04:49:59 2007
Subject: hCard history and extensions (was Re: [uf-discuss] Date 
	of	Death in hCard)
In-Reply-To: <x7yW3ARnfgiGFwWe@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <CE20905B-92D2-41F6-9EA3-F0E74AF3E801@adactio.com>
	<C2AF331E.915F7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<x7yW3ARnfgiGFwWe@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <27630.80.86.36.97.1183463395.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>

On Tue, July 3, 2007 09:25, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> <p class="vcard vevent">
>>
>>> <span class="fn summary">Charles Darwin</span> was
>>> born on <abbr title="1809-02-12" class="dtstart bday">February 12,
>>> 1809</abbr>
>>> and died on <abbr title="1882-04-19" class="dtend">April 19,1882</
>>> abbr>. </p>

> Do we really think this method is going to be easier for lay publishers

...or parsers...

> to adopt, than a simple DoD field in hCard?

-- 
Andy Mabbett


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul  3 05:07:25 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul  3 05:07:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <C2AFF482.5394%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
References: <C2AFF482.5394%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55272.80.86.36.97.1183464445.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>

On Tue, July 3, 2007 12:41, Michael Smethurst wrote:


> Artist and release pages on bbc.co.uk/music now feature hcard, hreview
> and rel-licence ufs:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artist/m6qv/

Nice one, but you have, for example, "The Beatles" as "fn" not "fn org",
leading to bogus n-optimisation.

-- 
Andy Mabbett


From serdar at kilic.net  Tue Jul  3 05:08:19 2007
From: serdar at kilic.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Serdar_Kili=E7?=)
Date: Tue Jul  3 05:08:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] T-shirt sales
In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0706291951h877fa48m91dbb06e1fec43f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <uALhp+S2$LfGFwPM@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<46CB1E06-93D4-4C53-A8F9-164B70432B6D@kilic.net>
	<467F9C9C.3070508@ts0.com>
	<1bc4603e0706291951h877fa48m91dbb06e1fec43f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99642B3F-F596-4BCA-8508-6C4F646AD44B@kilic.net>

On 30/06/2007, at 12:51 PM, Chris Messina wrote:

> Are folks interested in buying any variety of MF shirts?

I'm interested in getting a few shirts (as long as though shipping to  
Australia is reasonable).

Regards,
Serdar Kili?
http://weblog.kilic.net/




From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  3 05:18:54 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Tue Jul  3 05:19:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <55272.80.86.36.97.1183464445.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
Message-ID: <C2AFFD3E.53A0%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>




On 3/7/07 13:07, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, July 3, 2007 12:41, Michael Smethurst wrote:
> 
> 
>> Artist and release pages on bbc.co.uk/music now feature hcard, hreview
>> and rel-licence ufs:
>> 
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artist/m6qv/
> 
> Nice one, but you have, for example, "The Beatles" as "fn" not "fn org",
> leading to bogus n-optimisation.

Unfortunately, the database doesn't tell me whether an artist is a person or
a group. I could get this data by hitting the brainz api but we don't yet
have a local copy of the brainz api to hit and I'm on a promise to robert
not to kill his server. So in the meantime it's the best I can do with
available data...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Jul  3 05:26:33 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Jul  3 05:26:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <C2AFF482.5394%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
References: <C2AFF482.5394%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DFE3646A-0952-4F44-A767-F34F3B46B0BD@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 3, 2007, at 5:41 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote:

> <aside>Because the reviews don't have their own urls but do contain  
> hcards
> with urls both tails and operator get a little confused when  
> extracting the
> hreview. See mails passim</aside>

Such nesting confusion is a known problem in need of more real world  
examples.  I added this to the wiki:

http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo-examples#hCard_in_hReview

Please correct any errors or omissions you see.

Peace,
Scott

From julian.rickards at ontario.ca  Tue Jul  3 11:04:29 2007
From: julian.rickards at ontario.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Tue Jul  3 11:04:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Confused about telephone numbers in hCard
In-Reply-To: <009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83E12@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<009b01c7bc27$7b471170$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F89@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>

Paul Wilkins wrote:

> The trouble you're facing is that Tails is at version 0.3. 
> The author says " Thanks all for the feedback. I'm trying to 
> construct a list . . ."
> 
> At this stage, Tails is incomplete and you will either need 
> to be patient until it works more properly, or for the 
> interim, find some other solution than Tails.

In my experimentation, I learned that the same code
(http://jrickards.ca/hcard2.html) exports properly via Technorati
Contacts, X2V and Operator but not via Tails Export. I am not going to
depend on Tails Export until more advances have been made to the code
(otherwise, it has great potential for becoming a great tool).

Jules

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul  3 11:08:25 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul  3 11:10:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <C2AFFD3E.53A0%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
References: <55272.80.86.36.97.1183464445.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2AFFD3E.53A0%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <fSdNNPSZCpiGFwgW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C2AFFD3E.53A0%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>, Michael 
Smethurst <Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk> writes

>On 3/7/07 13:07, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, July 3, 2007 12:41, Michael Smethurst wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Artist and release pages on bbc.co.uk/music now feature hcard, hreview
>>> and rel-licence ufs:
>>>
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artist/m6qv/
>>
>> Nice one, but you have, for example, "The Beatles" as "fn" not "fn org",
>> leading to bogus n-optimisation.
>
>Unfortunately, the database doesn't tell me whether an artist is a 
>person or a group.

I empathise - I had the same trouble with bands vs. artist in the 
relevant infobox on Wikipedia, Fortunately, it is possible for other 
parameters used there, to distinguish between them.

> So in the meantime it's the best I can do with available data...

I wonder whether "no microformats" would be better than "broken 
microformats"?

What do others think?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul  3 11:23:53 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul  3 11:25:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ZE$sozOTLYiGFwQk@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<001001c7bd02$009b4af0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BS1KN9S5QpiGFwiH@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>, Patrick H. Lauke 
<redux@splintered.co.uk> writes

>Paul Wilkins wrote:
>
>> You could try the FAQ.
>> http://microformats.org/wiki/faq
>>  Where it says:
>>  Q. Given that Google now looks at hidden content as potential spam, 
>>will  invisible microformats be considered spam?
>>  A. It is advisable not to hide information in your site, regardless 
>>of  whether it is microformated or not. Microformats provide a 
>>mechanism for  marking up visible content. Any mechanism for embedding 
>>invisible or  hidden content risks being considered spam due to the 
>>fact that  invisible (meta)data inevitably ends up being abused. Avoid 
>>invisible  (meta)data. Publish visible data.
>
>FUD. Will Google attempt to parse the complex interplay of CSS and 
>(X)HTML for each page to determine if content is somehow hidden? No. 
>Currently, the way it works is that somebody reports a page to Google, 
>and their team investigates it (cfr the case of BMW in Germany a while 
>ago). There's human judgement involved, and not an automated "hidden = 
>spam" algorithm.

I've updated the FAQ to reflect that.

I've still seen no citation for any *prohibition* of hidden data in 
microformats...

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From mejllistor at kodfabrik.se  Tue Jul  3 11:44:11 2007
From: mejllistor at kodfabrik.se (Pelle W)
Date: Tue Jul  3 11:44:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <fSdNNPSZCpiGFwgW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <55272.80.86.36.97.1183464445.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>	<C2AFFD3E.53A0%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
	<fSdNNPSZCpiGFwgW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <468A98FB.2040201@kodfabrik.se>

Andy Mabbett skrev:
>> Unfortunately, the database doesn't tell me whether an artist is a 
>> person or a group.
> I empathise - I had the same trouble with bands vs. artist in the 
> relevant infobox on Wikipedia, Fortunately, it is possible for other 
> parameters used there, to distinguish between them.
>> So in the meantime it's the best I can do with available data...
> I wonder whether "no microformats" would be better than "broken 
> microformats"?
>
> What do others think?
I think that maybe all artist kan be considered a company because 
frankly their names are trademarks no matter if their own, a bands or 
something else.
Britney Spears or Paris Hilton could both practically be caled Britney 
Spears Inc. or Paris Hilton Inc.
It's better with broken microformats than no - but perhaps it's better 
broken the way I suggest than the way it is now?

/ Pelle

From julian.rickards at ontario.ca  Tue Jul  3 11:47:39 2007
From: julian.rickards at ontario.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Tue Jul  3 11:47:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
Message-ID: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>

Hi:

On http://jrickards.ca/hcard.html, I have multiple hCards. The Tails
Export and Operator plugins handle these multiple hCards (albeit one at
time) but the Technorati Contacts and X2V import only the top one.

Is there anyway to get either Technorati Contacts or X2V to work with a
selected one, not just the first one?

Jules

------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Geoscience Data Conversion Technician
Provincial Recording Office, Level B3
Sudbury, ON  P3E 6B5
E-mail: julian.rickards@ontario.ca
Phone: (705) 670-5861, Fax: (705) 670-5881

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jul  3 11:50:46 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jul  3 11:50:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <BS1KN9S5QpiGFwiH@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C2AFE835.9170F%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 7/3/07 11:23 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>, Patrick H. Lauke
> <redux@splintered.co.uk> writes
> 
>> Paul Wilkins wrote:
>> 
>>> You could try the FAQ.
>>> http://microformats.org/wiki/faq
>>>  Where it says:
>>>  Q. Given that Google now looks at hidden content as potential spam,
>>> will  invisible microformats be considered spam?
>>>  A. It is advisable not to hide information in your site, regardless
>>> of  whether it is microformated or not. Microformats provide a
>>> mechanism for  marking up visible content. Any mechanism for embedding
>>> invisible or  hidden content risks being considered spam due to the
>>> fact that  invisible (meta)data inevitably ends up being abused. Avoid
>>> invisible  (meta)data. Publish visible data.
>> 
>> FUD.

Not FUD but based on examples publicly discussed and commented on by search
engine company representatives (Google, Yahoo, Technorati, etc.).  It would
be reasonable (and certainly better for us) to have citations since these
generalizations are based on events documented on the broader web.


>> Will Google attempt to parse the complex interplay of CSS and
>> (X)HTML for each page to determine if content is somehow hidden? No.
>> Currently, the way it works is that somebody reports a page to Google,
>> and their team investigates it (cfr the case of BMW in Germany a while
>> ago). There's human judgement involved, and not an automated "hidden =
>> spam" algorithm.

Are you an employee for Google speaking authoritatively on Google's behalf?


> I've updated the FAQ to reflect that.

I've reverted this assertion from the FAQ since AFAIK Patrick is not a
Google employee nor speaking for Google.


> I've still seen no citation for any *prohibition* of hidden data in
> microformats...

There is no prohibition per se, it is simply suboptimal behavior.  Perhaps
analogous to how there is no prohibition of putting aluminum cans in the
garbage which is suboptimal compared to recycling them.

Tantek

From microformats at kaply.com  Tue Jul  3 12:04:23 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Tue Jul  3 12:04:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <468A98FB.2040201@kodfabrik.se>
References: <55272.80.86.36.97.1183464445.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2AFFD3E.53A0%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
	<fSdNNPSZCpiGFwgW@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<468A98FB.2040201@kodfabrik.se>
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0707031204rff43a7epb91b6bb78831c9cf@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe this just shows how n optimization is a bad idea?

Just because someone's name is Ludacris, doesn't mean it's a nick name.

And just because someone's name is 50 Cent doesn't mean their first
name is 50 and their last name is Cent.

Mike Kaply

On 7/3/07, Pelle W <mejllistor@kodfabrik.se> wrote:
> Andy Mabbett skrev:
> >> Unfortunately, the database doesn't tell me whether an artist is a
> >> person or a group.
> > I empathise - I had the same trouble with bands vs. artist in the
> > relevant infobox on Wikipedia, Fortunately, it is possible for other
> > parameters used there, to distinguish between them.
> >> So in the meantime it's the best I can do with available data...
> > I wonder whether "no microformats" would be better than "broken
> > microformats"?
> >
> > What do others think?
> I think that maybe all artist kan be considered a company because
> frankly their names are trademarks no matter if their own, a bands or
> something else.
> Britney Spears or Paris Hilton could both practically be caled Britney
> Spears Inc. or Paris Hilton Inc.
> It's better with broken microformats than no - but perhaps it's better
> broken the way I suggest than the way it is now?
>
> / Pelle
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Jul  3 12:45:33 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Jul  3 12:45:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
Message-ID: <0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 3, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:

> On http://jrickards.ca/hcard.html, I have multiple hCards. The Tails
> Export and Operator plugins handle these multiple hCards (albeit  
> one at
> time) but the Technorati Contacts and X2V import only the top one.
>
> Is there anyway to get either Technorati Contacts or X2V to work  
> with a
> selected one, not just the first one?

I just exported that page through X2V and got 3 vCards.  They're all  
in one .vcf file, though.  Do you want each vCard in a separate file  
for some reason, or were you getting something different?

Peace,
Scott

From julian.rickards at ontario.ca  Wed Jul  4 04:59:37 2007
From: julian.rickards at ontario.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Wed Jul  4 04:59:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF7@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>

Scott wrote:

> I just exported that page through X2V and got 3 vCards.  
> They're all in one .vcf file, though.  Do you want each vCard 
> in a separate file for some reason, or were you getting 
> something different?

When creating a page with multiple hCards, for example, Sales Offices in
North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australasia, only
one of those would apply so you would want only the one that applied to
you. In my case, I am trying to find a way of listing the contact
information for various staff in our office and yet when a client goes
to our contacts page, they need only download the contact information
for one or a couple of our staff that they deal with on a regular basis.

I am going to see if fragment identifiers work but I suspect that they
won't. I will let you know the results.

Jules

From julian.rickards at ontario.ca  Wed Jul  4 05:09:11 2007
From: julian.rickards at ontario.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Wed Jul  4 05:09:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>

Scott wrote:

> I just exported that page through X2V and got 3 vCards.  
> They're all in one .vcf file, though.  Do you want each vCard 
> in a separate file for some reason, or were you getting 
> something different?

Also, in Outlook 2003, I don't get 3 vCards, just one and it contains
only the first contact information.

I tried Technorati Contacts too and the same results.

I also tried using fragment identifiers
(http://jrickards.ca/hcard.html#arethafranklin) but that didn't work
either, I only got the first contact (James Brown).

Jules

From thom at ts0.com  Wed Jul  4 05:26:57 2007
From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon)
Date: Wed Jul  4 05:27:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
Message-ID: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>

What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard on 
a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of 
friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic 
way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.

Would it be a category? And is there any convention emerging for the 
name of such a category?
From mejllistor at kodfabrik.se  Wed Jul  4 05:32:27 2007
From: mejllistor at kodfabrik.se (Pelle W)
Date: Wed Jul  4 05:32:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
Message-ID: <468B935B.9000201@kodfabrik.se>

Thom Shannon skrev:
> What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard 
> on a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of 
> friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic 
> way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.
>
> Would it be a category? And is there any convention emerging for the 
> name of such a category?
What about using XFN and that way defining you as yourself?| For me that 
would be:|

<div class="vcard">
   <a class="url fn" href="http://pelle.vox.nu/" rel="me">Pelle Wessman</a>
</div>

/ Pelle
From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 05:36:27 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jul  4 05:36:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/07/07, Thom Shannon <thom@ts0.com> wrote:
> What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard on
> a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of
> friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic
> way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.

The <address> element is for signifying the page author.  This'd
probably suit what you're looking for (<address class="vcard"> etc.).





-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From thom at ts0.com  Wed Jul  4 05:50:02 2007
From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon)
Date: Wed Jul  4 05:50:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468B977A.8060103@ts0.com>

Frances Berriman wrote:
> The <address> element is for signifying the page author.  This'd
> probably suit what you're looking for (<address class="vcard"> etc.).
>
So it is:
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
I like a posh answer! Thanks.
From microformats at fatbusinessman.com  Wed Jul  4 06:18:06 2007
From: microformats at fatbusinessman.com (David Thompson)
Date: Wed Jul  4 06:18:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>	<0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com>
	<294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
Message-ID: <468B9E0E.6070104@fatbusinessman.com>

Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:
> Also, in Outlook 2003, I don't get 3 vCards, just one and it contains
> only the first contact information.

This is a known Outlook bug: 
<http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#Microsoft_Outlook>

Granted, that doesn't actually _solve_ the problem, but still?

-- 
David Thompson
From julian.rickards at ontario.ca  Wed Jul  4 06:31:44 2007
From: julian.rickards at ontario.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Wed Jul  4 06:32:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <468B9E0E.6070104@fatbusinessman.com>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>	<0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com><294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<468B9E0E.6070104@fatbusinessman.com>
Message-ID: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D8401E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>

David wrote:

> This is a known Outlook bug: 
> <http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#Microsoft_Outlook>
> 
> Granted, that doesn't actually _solve_ the problem, but still...


At least it clarifies the situation.

Thanks,

Jules

From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jul  4 07:50:54 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jul  4 07:51:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com>
	<294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
Message-ID: <C706F1B6-154A-4CDC-B1FA-694938898177@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 4, 2007, at 6:09 AM, Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:

> I also tried using fragment identifiers
> (http://jrickards.ca/hcard.html#arethafranklin) but that didn't work
> either, I only got the first contact (James Brown).

I just ran that fragment URL through X2V, which output only the  
Aretha Franklin vCard.  Taking a guess as to why you might be getting  
different results, if you're using X2V via a constructed URL per the  
instructions of "http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcard/get- 
contact.php?uri=<COMPLETE-URL-TO-YOUR-SITE>", that doesn't actually  
work with fragment URLs, because the # needs to be escaped (as %23).   
But that's my only guess as to what the problem is.

Peace,
Scott

From julian.rickards at ontario.ca  Wed Jul  4 08:06:04 2007
From: julian.rickards at ontario.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Wed Jul  4 08:06:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <C706F1B6-154A-4CDC-B1FA-694938898177@randomchaos.com>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca><0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com><294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<C706F1B6-154A-4CDC-B1FA-694938898177@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D8405F@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>

Scott wrote:

> I just ran that fragment URL through X2V, which output only 
> the Aretha Franklin vCard.  Taking a guess as to why you 
> might be getting different results, if you're using X2V via a 
> constructed URL per the instructions of 
> "http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcard/get-
> contact.php?uri=<COMPLETE-URL-TO-YOUR-SITE>", that doesn't actually  
> work with fragment URLs, because the # needs to be escaped 
> (as %23).   
> But that's my only guess as to what the problem is.


Hah!! Perfect! Didn't know I had to escape the fragment URL.

Did you get only the Aretha Franklin vCard? Last time you tested it for
me, you told me that you downloaded 3 vCards in one vcf and I just want
to make sure that with the fragment identifiers, when you click on the
links after either "James Brown" or "Aretha Franklin"
(http://jrickards.ca/hcard.html) you get only one vCard when you click
on the links.

Jules

From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jul  4 09:30:40 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jul  4 09:30:51 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Multiple hCards
In-Reply-To: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D8405F@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
References: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83F9E@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca><0B762DA7-384C-4072-A05A-CF70C8F274BE@randomchaos.com><294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D83FF8@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
	<C706F1B6-154A-4CDC-B1FA-694938898177@randomchaos.com>
	<294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D8405F@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>
Message-ID: <3836F200-6764-49E0-8671-C132BFCC5451@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 4, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:

>> Taking a guess as to why you
>> might be getting different results, if you're using X2V via a
>> constructed URL per the instructions of
>> "http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcard/get-
>> contact.php?uri=<COMPLETE-URL-TO-YOUR-SITE>", that doesn't actually
>> work with fragment URLs, because the # needs to be escaped
>> (as %23).
>
> Hah!! Perfect! Didn't know I had to escape the fragment URL.

Yeah, technically all URLs in query strings should be escaped, but  
it's mostly only an issue with fragments.

> Did you get only the Aretha Franklin vCard? Last time you tested it  
> for
> me, you told me that you downloaded 3 vCards in one vcf and I just  
> want
> to make sure that with the fragment identifiers, when you click on the
> links after either "James Brown" or "Aretha Franklin"
> (http://jrickards.ca/hcard.html) you get only one vCard when you click
> on the links.

I get all three when I paste your non-fragment URL into X2V, and each  
individual one when I click the fragment links on your page (which I  
hadn't noticed before).  So everything seems to be working.

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul  4 12:04:18 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul  4 12:05:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>, Frances 
Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes

>On 04/07/07, Thom Shannon <thom@ts0.com> wrote:
>> What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard on
>> a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of
>> friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic
>> way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.
>
>The <address> element is for signifying the page author.  This'd
>probably suit what you're looking for (<address class="vcard"> etc.).

That's fine when the primary subject of the page is it's author.

Imagine, though, a biography of Paul McCartney. It might mention that he 
was in a popular music ensemble with John Lennon, Ringo Star and George 
Harrison, produced by George Martin, and was married to Linda McCartney 
and someone else, and had children called Stella, Mary and so on.

The page's author might be, say, Hunter Davies.

Each of these people might have an hCard - but how do we indicate that 
Paul McCartney's hCard is the primary one for the page?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From fberriman at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 12:51:50 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Wed Jul  4 12:51:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <e86992a40707041251w7b39d7d4r4b8b72143a34cd9a@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/07/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>, Frances
> Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes
>
> >On 04/07/07, Thom Shannon <thom@ts0.com> wrote:
> >> What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard on
> >> a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of
> >> friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic
> >> way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.
> >
> >The <address> element is for signifying the page author.  This'd
> >probably suit what you're looking for (<address class="vcard"> etc.).
>
> That's fine when the primary subject of the page is it's author.
>
> Imagine, though, a biography of Paul McCartney. It might mention that he
> was in a popular music ensemble with John Lennon, Ringo Star and George
> Harrison, produced by George Martin, and was married to Linda McCartney
> and someone else, and had children called Stella, Mary and so on.
>
> The page's author might be, say, Hunter Davies.
>
> Each of these people might have an hCard - but how do we indicate that
> Paul McCartney's hCard is the primary one for the page?

A primary hCard wouldn't be the same as the author of the page.
That's a different problem.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul  4 13:32:32 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul  4 13:35:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40707041251w7b39d7d4r4b8b72143a34cd9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e86992a40707041251w7b39d7d4r4b8b72143a34cd9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <poygzgdgPAjGFwcB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<e86992a40707041251w7b39d7d4r4b8b72143a34cd9a@mail.gmail.com>, Frances
Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes

>On 04/07/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> In message
>> <e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>, Frances
>> Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> writes
>>
>> >On 04/07/07, Thom Shannon <thom@ts0.com> wrote:
>>> > What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard on
>>> > a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of
>>> > friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic
>>> > way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.
>> >
>> >The <address> element is for signifying the page author.  This'd
>> >probably suit what you're looking for (<address class="vcard"> etc.).
>>
>> That's fine when the primary subject of the page is its author.
>>
>> Imagine, though, a biography of Paul McCartney. It might mention that he
>> was in a popular music ensemble with John Lennon, Ringo Star and George
>> Harrison, produced by George Martin, and was married to Linda McCartney
>> and someone else, and had children called Stella, Mary and so on.
>>
>> The page's author might be, say, Hunter Davies.
>>
>> Each of these people might have an hCard - but how do we indicate that
>> Paul McCartney's hCard is the primary one for the page?
>
>A primary hCard wouldn't be the same as the author of the page.

Quite.

>That's a different problem.

We were asked:

        What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive
        hCard on a page. For example the page owner or author.

Note that that's "For example", not "i.e.".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul  4 13:34:13 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul  4 13:35:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Semacode
Message-ID: <N47pnKeFRAjGFwZV@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


I've made as Semacode for microformats, and put it on a page with some
explanatory text:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/semacode>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jul  4 14:12:15 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jul  4 14:14:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <10AB4671-5FC1-4E4E-931A-6A3F98499F8E@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 4, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> Imagine, though, a biography of Paul McCartney. It might mention  
> that he was in a popular music ensemble with John Lennon, Ringo  
> Star and George Harrison, produced by George Martin, and was  
> married to Linda McCartney and someone else, and had children  
> called Stella, Mary and so on.

Interesting question, if not what Thom needed.  I try to use <h1> to  
identify the subject of a page, so perhaps something like <h1  
class="fn">Paul McCartney</h1> could cover that scenario.  But it's  
hard to know without an actual web page to look at, and I'm not sure  
what we'd do with the subject after we'd identified it.  If this is  
becoming a new microformat proposal, it should probably move to the - 
new list.

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul  4 15:06:00 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul  4 15:07:44 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <10AB4671-5FC1-4E4E-931A-6A3F98499F8E@randomchaos.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<10AB4671-5FC1-4E4E-931A-6A3F98499F8E@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <amIMQOgInBjGFwLn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <10AB4671-5FC1-4E4E-931A-6A3F98499F8E@randomchaos.com>, Scott
Reynen <scott@randomchaos.com> writes

>On Jul 4, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
>> Imagine, though, a biography of Paul McCartney. It might mention
>>that he was in a popular music ensemble with John Lennon, Ringo   Star
>>and George Harrison, produced by George Martin, and was   married to
>>Linda McCartney and someone else, and had children   called Stella,
>>Mary and so on.
>
>Interesting question, if not what Thom needed.  I try to use <h1> to
>identify the subject of a page, so perhaps something like <h1
>class="fn">Paul McCartney</h1> could cover that scenario.

Not if the existing page has:

        <h1>Acme Rock Biographies Inc</h1>
        <h2>Paul McCartney</h2>

>  But it's  hard to know without an actual web page to look at, and I'm
>not sure  what we'd do with the subject after we'd identified it.

One application could be for a search engine - "find me pages *about*
Paul McCartney, but don't bother with those that just /mention/ him".

Then again, there's the issue of pages "about Paul McCartney and John
Lennon (and their work together)" where each has equal weight.

>  If this is  becoming a new microformat proposal, it should probably
>move to the - new list.

That wasn't my intention.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jul  4 15:56:27 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jul  4 15:56:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <amIMQOgInBjGFwLn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<10AB4671-5FC1-4E4E-931A-6A3F98499F8E@randomchaos.com>
	<amIMQOgInBjGFwLn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <9C538789-C6FB-4382-85FB-0857774CD513@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 4, 2007, at 4:06 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> Interesting question, if not what Thom needed.  I try to use <h1> to
>> identify the subject of a page, so perhaps something like <h1
>> class="fn">Paul McCartney</h1> could cover that scenario.
>
> Not if the existing page has:
>
>         <h1>Acme Rock Biographies Inc</h1>
>         <h2>Paul McCartney</h2>

I think the subject is still clear here, if not what was intended.   
Headers describe the topic of a section of content.  In this case,  
this headers say the content is primarily about Acme Rock  
Biographies, and secondarily about Paul McCartney.  Of course, many  
people are still using headers primarily for their default visual  
rendering without regard to their meaning, so there's still a lot of  
work to do convincing publishers to use HTML markup meaningfully.

>>  But it's  hard to know without an actual web page to look at, and  
>> I'm
>> not sure  what we'd do with the subject after we'd identified it.
>
> One application could be for a search engine - "find me pages *about*
> Paul McCartney, but don't bother with those that just /mention/ him".

Search engines already analyze the structure of HTML documents, e.g.  
headers, to determine subject matter, but they don't treat the markup  
as definitive.  I think the only thing required to accomplish this  
scenario would be for a search engine to assume the structure of  
markup actually reflects the structure of the content in HTML  
documents, i.e. assume the web is semantic.  I doubt they'll see much  
value in that until much more of the web actually is semantic, but  
I'd certainly be interested in seeing the results of such a search  
engine.

Peace,
Scott

From mdagn at spraci.com  Wed Jul  4 17:59:04 2007
From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD)
Date: Wed Jul  4 17:59:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk><8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com><ZE$sozOTLYiGFwQk@pigsonthewing.org.uk><001001c7bd02$009b4af0$bc08a8c0@nzto22><46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>
	<BS1KN9S5QpiGFwiH@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <003401c7be9f$af831770$116bacca@COMCEN>

>
> I've updated the FAQ to reflect that.
>
> I've still seen no citation for any *prohibition* of hidden data in 
> microformats...

I do think there is a valid case for being able to have *some* hidden items 
where humans can easily work out from other stuff that IS displayed what 
they are
but machines may still need them
- such as the case that was discussed here a few months ago of displaying 
the (adr or hcard) region or country in hcalendar items where it is assumed 
that people looking at the page would already know them because all the 
events are in the same city (the summary, dates, description, etc would 
still be visible) or where that information is already present in a 
human-readable form somewhere else on the page or it is obvious to humans 
(such as a site or section of a site about a certain city)

I'd say it is still better to include that extra information even if it has 
to be hidden!
- that extra data can still be useful to aggregators/search tools/export 
tools etc - and may in some cases be needed.

I don't think there should be ever be any case where visual design 
considerations cause people to omit important data,
they should still be able to include it somehow.

Forcing people to display EVERYTHING might cause lots of people out there to 
omit potentially useful data.






From mejllistor at kodfabrik.se  Wed Jul  4 23:43:30 2007
From: mejllistor at kodfabrik.se (Pelle W)
Date: Wed Jul  4 23:43:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Hidden metadata no microformats
In-Reply-To: <003401c7be9f$af831770$116bacca@COMCEN>
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk><8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com><ZE$sozOTLYiGFwQk@pigsonthewing.org.uk><001001c7bd02$009b4af0$bc08a8c0@nzto22><46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>	<BS1KN9S5QpiGFwiH@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<003401c7be9f$af831770$116bacca@COMCEN>
Message-ID: <468C9312.7020408@kodfabrik.se>

Michael MD skrev:
>>
>> I've updated the FAQ to reflect that.
>>
>> I've still seen no citation for any *prohibition* of hidden data in 
>> microformats...
> I do think there is a valid case for being able to have *some* hidden 
> items where humans can easily work out from other stuff that IS 
> displayed what they are
> but machines may still need them
> - such as the case that was discussed here a few months ago of 
> displaying the (adr or hcard) region or country in hcalendar items 
> where it is assumed that people looking at the page would already know 
> them because all the events are in the same city (the summary, dates, 
> description, etc would still be visible) or where that information is 
> already present in a human-readable form somewhere else on the page or 
> it is obvious to humans (such as a site or section of a site about a 
> certain city)
>
> I'd say it is still better to include that extra information even if 
> it has to be hidden!
> - that extra data can still be useful to aggregators/search 
> tools/export tools etc - and may in some cases be needed.
>
> I don't think there should be ever be any case where visual design 
> considerations cause people to omit important data,
> they should still be able to include it somehow.
>
> Forcing people to display EVERYTHING might cause lots of people out 
> there to omit potentially useful data. 
Another way of "legally" hiding microformats without really hiding any 
information is to replace the text with images with the help of CSS. If 
you asked the borswer or some other program if the microformat is hidden 
it would then say yes - but the info could very well be visible in 
graphics. Perhaps a map has replaced some geo-data or a very beutiful 
headline has replaced the name in a hCard.

/ Pelle


From kevinmarks at mac.com  Wed Jul  4 23:47:09 2007
From: kevinmarks at mac.com (Kevin Marks)
Date: Wed Jul  4 23:47:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <468B935B.9000201@kodfabrik.se>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com> <468B935B.9000201@kodfabrik.se>
Message-ID: <395B49AE-05FA-49E6-A999-9B2F26C2FD14@mac.com>


On Jul 4, 2007, at 5:32 AM, Pelle W wrote:

> Thom Shannon skrev:
>> What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive  
>> hCard on a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has  
>> hCards of friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like  
>> a programmatic way to identify mine, mainly to access information  
>> about me at my openid.
>>
>> Would it be a category? And is there any convention emerging for  
>> the name of such a category?
> What about using XFN and that way defining you as yourself?| For me  
> that would be:|
>
> <div class="vcard">
>   <a class="url fn" href="http://pelle.vox.nu/" rel="me">Pelle  
> Wessman</a>
> </div>

As others have said, using <address> works when the person is the  
principal author of the page - see twitter for examples of this  (eg  
http://twitter.com/kevinmarks has me in the address block and the  
other 200+ not)

rel="me" also works in the case where the page is a proxy for the  
author, but you cna have multiple rel="me" links

The other hCard property that is useful here is "uid" - if you do a

<div class="vcard">
   <a class="url fn uid" href="http://pelle.vox.nu/" rel="me">Pelle  
Wessman</a>
</div>

on the page http://pelle.vox.nu that is asserting that the page is a  
unique id and thus definitive for Pelle.

You can of course use "uid" to assert the definitiveness of another  
hCard's url, but one pointing to the current page is clearly self- 
consistent. If you think of a site like Yelp, look at

http://www.yelp.com/biz/jRF_IanvH-LYY04Ce9NYQA

if they were to add hCards to their pages, putting uid on the links  
would help, and making the title of "Sushi on the Run" link to the  
current page, as it is then clear that the self-pointing link is the  
definitive one for that page, but the sidebar hCards and "you might  
also like" ones are breifer ones thet link through to the full hCard  
on the page.
From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul  5 01:59:54 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Thu Jul  5 02:00:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <468A98FB.2040201@kodfabrik.se>
Message-ID: <C2B2719A.547F%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>




On 3/7/07 19:44, "Pelle W" <mejllistor@kodfabrik.se> wrote:

> Andy Mabbett skrev:
>>> Unfortunately, the database doesn't tell me whether an artist is a
>>> person or a group.
>> I empathise - I had the same trouble with bands vs. artist in the
>> relevant infobox on Wikipedia, Fortunately, it is possible for other
>> parameters used there, to distinguish between them.
>>> So in the meantime it's the best I can do with available data...
>> I wonder whether "no microformats" would be better than "broken
>> microformats"?
>> 
>> What do others think?
> I think that maybe all artist kan be considered a company because
> frankly their names are trademarks no matter if their own, a bands or
> something else.
> Britney Spears or Paris Hilton could both practically be caled Britney
> Spears Inc. or Paris Hilton Inc.

Unless I'm suffering more flashbacks than usual this seems like a slight
return to a conversation going on a couple of weeks back which never got
resolved...

Seem to remember at the time I asked what the line of demarcation would be
between people as people and people as organisations. Are you just saying
music artists? What about actors, politicians, bloggers? Music artists who
act? Actors who become politicians? Politicians who blog?

Feels like you're splitting the world into 2 camps: celebrities and others.
Unless it's clearer what the logic is going on here I'm not happy to do this


> It's better with broken microformats than no - but perhaps it's better
> broken the way I suggest than the way it is now?

So I'm left with:

- implementing "broken" as at present

- changing the db, the model, the controller and the view and getting
editorial to flag groups and artists. This doesn't feel like a low impact
microformats addition and won't be done quickly

- pulling out the hcards. We're due to redeploy code on mon 16th july so
they could be gone by then

What happens next? Do people wanna vote? Options 1 and 3 only pls
> 
> / Pelle
> 
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


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From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Thu Jul  5 05:37:00 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Thu Jul  5 05:37:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <C2B2719A.547F%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
References: <C2B2719A.547F%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <468CE5EC.603@xtra.co.nz>

Michael Smethurst wrote:

>Seem to remember at the time I asked what the line of demarcation would be
>between people as people and people as organisations. Are you just saying
>music artists? What about actors, politicians, bloggers? Music artists who
>act? Actors who become politicians? Politicians who blog?
>
>Feels like you're splitting the world into 2 camps: celebrities and others.
>Unless it's clearer what the logic is going on here I'm not happy to do this
>  
>

You have three ways of formatting a name for use in an address book.

1. n (family-name, given-name, additional-name, honorific-prefix, 
honorific-suffix)
Where you can mark up the explicit parts of the name with the above 
class names.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Property_List

2. fn n
Where the name can be guaranteed to be one of the defined formatted name 
structures
 * given-name (space) family-name
 * family-name (comma) given-name
 * family-name (comma) given-name-first-initial
 * family-name (space) given-name-first-initial (optional period)
See http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22n.22_Optimization

3. fn org
Where it is the name of not necessarily a person, but of an organisation 
with a varied naming structure.
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info

There is a clear demarcation line here.

If you can guarantee that the name will be given as family-name, 
given-name, etc... then Option 1 is used.
If you can at least guarantee the the name will be valid as a formatted 
name, then Option2 is used.
If neither of those two can be guaranteed, you're left with Option 3 or 
nothing.

There is a strong case for considering artist names as their 
organisational name. Their names are widely varying, and often have 
nothing to do with the persons individual name itself.

-- 
Paul Wilkins
From julian.rickards at ontario.ca  Thu Jul  5 06:02:52 2007
From: julian.rickards at ontario.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Thu Jul  5 06:02:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Link to Technorati Contacts
Message-ID: <294B63D734544B438995226DBD3ABAF602D84107@CTSPITDCEMMVX03.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca>

Hi:

Brian Suda gives clear instructions on how to create a link to his X2V
application to create vCards from hCArd markup. However, on the X2V
page, he states that although the "engine" on his site is more recent
than Technorati Contacts, the Technorati servers are more robust so I am
wondering if the same type of link may be created to the Technorati
Contacts page.

Jules

------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Geoscience Data Conversion Technician
Provincial Recording Office, Level B3
Sudbury, ON  P3E 6B5
E-mail: julian.rickards@ontario.ca
Phone: (705) 670-5861, Fax: (705) 670-5881

From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul  5 06:18:35 2007
From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst)
Date: Thu Jul  5 06:18:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <468CE5EC.603@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <C2B2AE3B.54AB%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>




On 5/7/07 13:37, "Paul Wilkins" <paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> Michael Smethurst wrote:
> 
>> Seem to remember at the time I asked what the line of demarcation would be
>> between people as people and people as organisations. Are you just saying
>> music artists? What about actors, politicians, bloggers? Music artists who
>> act? Actors who become politicians? Politicians who blog?
>> 
>> Feels like you're splitting the world into 2 camps: celebrities and others.
>> Unless it's clearer what the logic is going on here I'm not happy to do this
>>  
>> 
> 
> You have three ways of formatting a name for use in an address book.
> 
> 1. n (family-name, given-name, additional-name, honorific-prefix,
> honorific-suffix)
> Where you can mark up the explicit parts of the name with the above
> class names.
> See http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Property_List
> 
> 2. fn n
> Where the name can be guaranteed to be one of the defined formatted name
> structures
>  * given-name (space) family-name
>  * family-name (comma) given-name
>  * family-name (comma) given-name-first-initial
>  * family-name (space) given-name-first-initial (optional period)
> See http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22n.22_Optimization
> 
> 3. fn org
> Where it is the name of not necessarily a person, but of an organisation
> with a varied naming structure.
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info
> 
> There is a clear demarcation line here.

Understood

But that wasn't the demarcation line I was talking about - I meant when does
a person become an organisation? Is it a function of production or fame or
what? If Bob Dylan is considered an organisation why not Bill Clinton?
> 
> If you can guarantee that the name will be given as family-name,
> given-name, etc... then Option 1 is used.

I can't

> If you can at least guarantee the the name will be valid as a formatted
> name, then Option2 is used.

Again I can't

> If neither of those two can be guaranteed, you're left with Option 3 or
> nothing.
> 
> There is a strong case for considering artist names as their
> organisational name. Their names are widely varying, and often have
> nothing to do with the persons individual name itself.

For now I disagree. Again if you could tell me when and why a person
qualifies to be considered as an organisation I might be persuaded. But
without rules anyone might be marked up as org. I'll remove them for the
next code deploy and re-title this thread "lack of ufs on bbc.co.uk/music"
;)


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From mejllistor at kodfabrik.se  Thu Jul  5 06:35:12 2007
From: mejllistor at kodfabrik.se (Pelle W)
Date: Thu Jul  5 06:35:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music
In-Reply-To: <C2B2AE3B.54AB%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
References: <C2B2AE3B.54AB%Michael.Smethurst@bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <468CF390.8070903@kodfabrik.se>

Michael Smethurst skrev:
> But that wasn't the demarcation line I was talking about - I meant when does
> a person become an organisation? Is it a function of production or fame or
> what? If Bob Dylan is considered an organisation why not Bill Clinton?
>   
Let's see if I can express my thoughts in a good way here.
What makes it difficult with artists is that some are just artists and 
others are bands. Politicians and other celebraties are always individuals.
Why do you say that Beatles made Yellow Submarine? Because thats the 
trademark they choosed to put on their music.
Here in Sweden we have a rapper who releases music under the trademark 
of Timbuktu. Everybody knows him as Timbuktu as if that would have been 
his name - not as many knows him as his real name Jason Diakit?.
That a musical masterpiece by Elton John is made by Elton John - that 
everybody knows because he has choosen to write his own name on his music.

If I have a company, which I do, I can name that company after me myself 
"Pelle W Inc." or I can name it something else, at least theoretically, 
that I come up with like "Happy Fantasies Inc." or "Richard Smith Inc.".
If I choose to have my own name as my company name that doesn't make it 
less of a company name. Right?

Can't the same be said about artists? If a artist choose to have their 
own names as the trademark of their music - it's their choice but it 
doesn't make the rademark any less of a trademark. I'm just thinking - 
not saying that this is right at all.

/ Pelle


From supercanadian at gmail.com  Thu Jul  5 11:10:29 2007
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Thu Jul  5 11:10:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0707051110n5d1e5805t4072bba400b0e18d@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

On 7/4/07, Frances Berriman <fberriman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 04/07/07, Thom Shannon <thom@ts0.com> wrote:
> > What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard on
> > a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of
> > friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic
> > way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.
>
> The <address> element is for signifying the page author.  This'd
> probably suit what you're looking for (<address class="vcard"> etc.).

It's my understanding that you can have more than one <address>
element on a web page.

It's my understanding that the <address> marks the author of the page
or a major section of the page.

For example... if you had a BBS... then each post could be "signed"
using the <address> element.


See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>


                  All the Vlogging News on One Page
                         http://vlograzor.com/
From scott at randomchaos.com  Thu Jul  5 11:31:05 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Thu Jul  5 11:31:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0707051110n5d1e5805t4072bba400b0e18d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0707051110n5d1e5805t4072bba400b0e18d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <280EB53C-5B44-497D-98E4-E8D96075E228@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 5, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:

> It's my understanding that you can have more than one <address>
> element on a web page.
>
> It's my understanding that the <address> marks the author of the page
> or a major section of the page.
>
> For example... if you had a BBS... then each post could be "signed"
> using the <address> element.

Indeed, the microformats.org blog is marked up like this.

Peace,
Scott

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Jul  5 11:48:49 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Jul  5 11:48:51 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hRelease Update
Message-ID: <21e770780707051148j3765d14cn30959d095865ba04@mail.gmail.com>

There was a thread[1] last month about the status of hRelease outside
of microformats, this should hopefully clear things-up.

http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/07/05/hrelease-me/

hRelease Me
05Jul07
Steffen Nork asked me for an update on hRelease. So here it is:

hRelease doesn't exist.

There was confusion last summer that something called the Social Media
Press Release had something to do with extending microformats to
include specific kinds of markup for press releases. ...

-brian

[1] - http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-June/009972.html

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Jul  5 13:38:46 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jul  5 13:39:53 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hRelease Update
In-Reply-To: <21e770780707051148j3765d14cn30959d095865ba04@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e770780707051148j3765d14cn30959d095865ba04@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MRv5tnuWbVjGFwLC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e770780707051148j3765d14cn30959d095865ba04@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:

>There was a thread last month about the status of hRelease outside
>of microformats, this should hopefully clear things-up.
>
>http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/07/05/hrelease-me/

>hRelease doesn't exist.

Uh huh.

From:

        <http://www.eu.socialtext.net/hRelease/>

           #    This is the home page for the hRelease Project (aka
                Social Media Press Release).

           #    hRelease is a community effort to define a new format
                for press releases via a community standard microformat

From:

        <http://www.eu.socialtext.net/hRelease/index.cgi?about>

        This is a community effort to define a new format for press
        releases via a community standard microformat (hRelease).

From:

        <http://socialmediarelease.org/>

        Social Media Release Moving Forward Again

        June 20th, 2007 by Chris Heuer

        I just got off the phone with Shannon Whitley from PRX Builder
        and I am very happy to report that he is taking the lead in
        moving the technical standard for the Microformat forward.

From:

        <http://groups.google.com/group/newmediarelease/>

        From: Shannon Whitley <shannon.whit...@...>
        Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:57:24 -0000
        Local: Wed, Jun 27 2007 6:57 pm
        Subject: Bringing Home hRelease

        As Chris announced on SocialMediaRelease.org, I'm going to be
        helping out with completing the hRelease recommendation and
        getting the working group going again.

        My plan is to focus on the low-hanging fruit first and make
        progress on the core elements of hRelease.

        The working group will focus primarily on technical aspects of
        hRelease.  Don't worry, though, the final recommendation will
        not be decided by a bunch of gearheads.  Recommendations will be
        presented to this group for review and discussion.

Interestingly, Brian Oberkirch isn't mentioned on either of the first
two pages; nor does he appear amongst the recent posters on the latter
mailing list.

Perhaps someone should tell him?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From bjonkman at sobac.com  Thu Jul  5 20:41:04 2007
From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Thu Jul  5 20:42:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page
In-Reply-To: <395B49AE-05FA-49E6-A999-9B2F26C2FD14@mac.com>
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>, <468B935B.9000201@kodfabrik.se>,
	<395B49AE-05FA-49E6-A999-9B2F26C2FD14@mac.com>
Message-ID: <468D8190.29598.CC87CD@bjonkman.sobac.com>

This is what Kevin Marks <microformats-discuss@microformats.org> said
about "Re: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page" on 4 Jul 2007 at 23:47

> The other hCard property that is useful here is "uid" - if you do a
> 
> <div class="vcard">
>    <a class="url fn uid" href="http://pelle.vox.nu/" rel="me">Pelle 
> Wessman</a> </div>
> 
> on the page http://pelle.vox.nu that is asserting that the page is a 
> unique id and thus definitive for Pelle.
> 
> You can of course use "uid" to assert the definitiveness of another 
> hCard's url, but one pointing to the current page is clearly self-
> consistent. 

What if publish an hcard with a "uid" for somene else?  To use a previous example, on my Beatles fan site I might want 
to declare one page for Paul McCartney.  Obviously my page isn't authoritative for Paul McCartney's contact 
information, but how can a parser (or human) know that?

--Bob.

-- -- -- --
Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com>         http://sobac.com/sobac/    
SOBAC Microcomputer Services              Voice: +1-519-669-0388       
6 James Street, Elmira ON  Canada  N3B 1L5  Cel: +1-519-635-9413
Networking   --   Office & Business Automation   --   Consulting
PGP:0xAE33E989 Fingrprnt:9FAF A6AC B567 BC10 8973 7CF0 CB27 0317



From costello at mitre.org  Fri Jul  6 06:10:38 2007
From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.)
Date: Fri Jul  6 06:10:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats: Enabling Unanticipated Mashups
Message-ID: <B8415163A689094689542C617ECA036601B652BC@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG>

Hi Folks,

Here are a few thoughts about how Microformats enable mashups. Comments
welcome.  /Roger

 
Hyperlinks are considered fundamental to the Web.  And deservedly so.
They enable a Web document to connect to other documents. Stated
differently, they enable information to connect to other information.
 
In today's world the emphasis is on being able to "combine
information".  That is, we want to do mashups. 
 
Consider a Web document that links to another document.  One can
envision an application which combines the two documents. Thus, an
application can mashup the Web document with the documents it is linked
to.
 
But what about mashups with other documents, for which it does not link
to?  That is, what about unanticipated mashups?
 
More ...

http://www.xfront-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Microformats:_Enabling_
Unanticipated_Mashups

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul 10 00:02:52 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul 10 00:04:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] CalConnect vCard Workshop - September 18,
	2007 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
Message-ID: <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


FYI; note on-line questionnaire.

I would suggest that the microformat "community" is a "key player", and 
that this is our opportunity to lobby for the inclusion of 
date-of-death, gender and perhaps place-of-birth/death (also useful in 
genealogy & biography).


In message <4692C6A2.2020000@calconnect.org>, Dave Thewlis 
<Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org> writes

>CalConnect invites you to a a one-day open workshop on vCard and what 
>should be done about it on Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at M.I.T. in 
>Cambridge, Massachusetts. This event is _open_ to vendors, customers, 
>CalConnect members and non-members alike. There is no fee, but you 
>_must_ register in advance and numbers are limited. Please see
>http://www.calconnect.org/vcardworkshop.shtml for more information and 
>links to the registration <http://www.calconnect.org/vcardreg.shtml> 
>and logistics <http://www.calconnect.org/vcardworkshoplogistics.shtml> 
>pages, a general discussion list 
><http://www.calconnect.org/vcardworkshoplist.shtml> about the workshop, 
>and a questionnaire 
><http://www.calconnect.org/vcardquestionnaire.shtml> to give us more 
>guidance to make the workshop as productive as possible.
>
>>From the workshop introduction page:
>
>vCard is a well established standard for representing and transferring 
>contact information on computer systems and mobile devices. Having been 
>in use for a while, a number of areas of the specification have been 
>noted as problematic and in need of revision for fixes or enhancements. 
>To that end, CalConnect (the Calendaring & Scheduling Consortium) is 
>hosting a one day vCard-focused workshop event at M.I.T. in Cambridge, 
>Massachusetts in September with the goal of bringing together the key 
>players to help move forward vCard revision efforts.
>
>Note that an effort is already under way at the IETF (Internet 
>Engineering Task Force) to develop a personal address book access 
>protocol based on the CardDAV specification, and since that is based on 
>vCard, a revision of the vCard specification will be taking place 
>within the IETF. However, bringing together interested parties in a 
>focused discussion at a workshop can help drive that effort and provide 
>supporting input to it to ensure the specific needs of the key players 
>is covered.
>
>The goal of the workshop is two-fold. First to determine the real 
>interest in revising the vCard specification, and second to determine 
>what needs to be revised and how to go about doing that.
>
>
>If you are not a CalConnect member, this is also an opportunity to stay 
>on for Roundtable X <http://www.calconnect.org/roundtable10.shtml> as 
>an observer, and we'd be delighted to have you; you will have to 
>register separately for the Roundtable.
>Regardless of whether or not you are interested in attending the 
>workshop, we would appreciate it very much if you would take a few 
>minutes to fill out the questionnaire 
><http://www.calconnect.org/vcardquestionnaire.shtml>, as this will help 
>provide the workshop participants with guidance as to the directions 
>any progression on vCard should take.
>
>
>--
>*Dave Thewlis, Executive Director
>Calconnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium*
>+1 707 840 9391 (voice) ? +1 707 498 2238 (mobile)
>http://www.calconnect.org ? Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org 
><mailto:Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org>


-- 
Andy Mabbett

From davidjohnmead at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 05:57:07 2007
From: davidjohnmead at gmail.com (David Mead)
Date: Wed Jul 11 05:57:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Flock blogging add-on...
Message-ID: <ca111b2b0707110557r43fa231fg94b08b6d4c076dd7@mail.gmail.com>

http://flock.spatialviews.com/blogplus_features.html

An add-on for the Flock0.9 blogging tool which includes some great
built in microformat functionality including a microformat/HTML
auto-complete.

Very cool mctones!

Dave Mead
From pauld at mitre.org  Wed Jul 11 07:20:41 2007
From: pauld at mitre.org (Paul Denning)
Date: Wed Jul 11 07:20:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] citation-formats - DDMS
Message-ID: <IMCFE1BQ5XqSwbEzuEF000064f4@IMCFE1.MITRE.ORG>

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play

I was considering an addition to [1], but according to guideline #2 
at [2], I thought I should check with this list first.

I would like to add another citation format:  DDMS.

DDMS is the Department of Defense Discovery Metadata Specification [3].

[3] http://metadata.dod.mil/mdr/irs/DDMS/

Anyone object to adding DDMS to [1]?

Paul



From microformats at kaply.com  Wed Jul 11 07:29:55 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Wed Jul 11 07:29:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] CalConnect vCard Workshop - September 18,
	2007 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
In-Reply-To: <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0707110729m107c6911i21759f91d15f3faa@mail.gmail.com>

And types on URLs!

Mike

On 7/10/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
> FYI; note on-line questionnaire.
>
> I would suggest that the microformat "community" is a "key player", and
> that this is our opportunity to lobby for the inclusion of
> date-of-death, gender and perhaps place-of-birth/death (also useful in
> genealogy & biography).
>
>
> In message <4692C6A2.2020000@calconnect.org>, Dave Thewlis
> <Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org> writes
>
> >CalConnect invites you to a a one-day open workshop on vCard and what
> >should be done about it on Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at M.I.T. in
> >Cambridge, Massachusetts. This event is _open_ to vendors, customers,
> >CalConnect members and non-members alike. There is no fee, but you
> >_must_ register in advance and numbers are limited. Please see
> >http://www.calconnect.org/vcardworkshop.shtml for more information and
> >links to the registration <http://www.calconnect.org/vcardreg.shtml>
> >and logistics <http://www.calconnect.org/vcardworkshoplogistics.shtml>
> >pages, a general discussion list
> ><http://www.calconnect.org/vcardworkshoplist.shtml> about the workshop,
> >and a questionnaire
> ><http://www.calconnect.org/vcardquestionnaire.shtml> to give us more
> >guidance to make the workshop as productive as possible.
> >
> >>From the workshop introduction page:
> >
> >vCard is a well established standard for representing and transferring
> >contact information on computer systems and mobile devices. Having been
> >in use for a while, a number of areas of the specification have been
> >noted as problematic and in need of revision for fixes or enhancements.
> >To that end, CalConnect (the Calendaring & Scheduling Consortium) is
> >hosting a one day vCard-focused workshop event at M.I.T. in Cambridge,
> >Massachusetts in September with the goal of bringing together the key
> >players to help move forward vCard revision efforts.
> >
> >Note that an effort is already under way at the IETF (Internet
> >Engineering Task Force) to develop a personal address book access
> >protocol based on the CardDAV specification, and since that is based on
> >vCard, a revision of the vCard specification will be taking place
> >within the IETF. However, bringing together interested parties in a
> >focused discussion at a workshop can help drive that effort and provide
> >supporting input to it to ensure the specific needs of the key players
> >is covered.
> >
> >The goal of the workshop is two-fold. First to determine the real
> >interest in revising the vCard specification, and second to determine
> >what needs to be revised and how to go about doing that.
> >
> >
> >If you are not a CalConnect member, this is also an opportunity to stay
> >on for Roundtable X <http://www.calconnect.org/roundtable10.shtml> as
> >an observer, and we'd be delighted to have you; you will have to
> >register separately for the Roundtable.
> >Regardless of whether or not you are interested in attending the
> >workshop, we would appreciate it very much if you would take a few
> >minutes to fill out the questionnaire
> ><http://www.calconnect.org/vcardquestionnaire.shtml>, as this will help
> >provide the workshop participants with guidance as to the directions
> >any progression on vCard should take.
> >
> >
> >--
> >*Dave Thewlis, Executive Director
> >Calconnect - The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium*
> >+1 707 840 9391 (voice) ? +1 707 498 2238 (mobile)
> >http://www.calconnect.org ? Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org
> ><mailto:Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org>
>
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 11 10:50:47 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 11 10:52:20 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] CalConnect vCard Workshop - September 18,
	2007 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
In-Reply-To: <e06e0e0b0707110729m107c6911i21759f91d15f3faa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<e06e0e0b0707110729m107c6911i21759f91d15f3faa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ZIxsLYY3hRlGFw4P@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Indeed; and "textphone"/ "freephone" telephone types.

You might want to add URL types to:

        <http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-suggestions>



In message
<e06e0e0b0707110729m107c6911i21759f91d15f3faa@mail.gmail.com>, Mike
Kaply <microformats@kaply.com> writes

>And types on URLs!
>
>Mike
>
>On 7/10/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> FYI; note on-line questionnaire.
>>
>> I would suggest that the microformat "community" is a "key player", and
>> that this is our opportunity to lobby for the inclusion of
>> date-of-death, gender and perhaps place-of-birth/death (also useful in
>> genealogy & biography).
>>
>>
>> In message <4692C6A2.2020000@calconnect.org>, Dave Thewlis
>> <Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org> writes
>>
>> >CalConnect invites you to a a one-day open workshop on vCard and what
>> >should be done about it on Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at M.I.T. in
>> >Cambridge, Massachusetts. This event is _open_ to vendors, customers,
>> >CalConnect members and non-members alike. There is no fee, but you
>> >_must_ register in advance and numbers are limited. Please see
>> >http://www.calconnect.org/vcardworkshop.shtml for more information


-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 11 14:34:23 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 11 14:35:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] CalConnect vCard Workshop - September 18,
	2007 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
In-Reply-To: <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <oNrwqWafzUlGFwub@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett 
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes

>In message <4692C6A2.2020000@calconnect.org>, Dave Thewlis 
><Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org> writes
>
>>CalConnect invites you to a a one-day open workshop on vCard

Dave has kindly acted on my request to add hCard to the agenda, and our 
ages on hCard and vCard errata and suggestions to the references.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From gl at brixlogic.com  Wed Jul 11 16:32:21 2007
From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu)
Date: Wed Jul 11 16:36:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
Message-ID: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>

Hi,

Let's say a web page uses an image such as a checkmark or green/red 
light to represent a boolean, for instance the availability/status of a 
product or a program.

What would be the suggested best practice to make this human-readable 
content machine-readable as well?

I was thinking about the following options:

<img class="status" src="../red.gif" title="available"/>, which is 
similar to the abbr pattern, but saves the addition of a wrapping abbr 
element.

or using a CSS-based text by image replacement technique as described in 
http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/ to replace a <span> 
with an image.

Thanks,

Guillaume









From steve at ganz.name  Wed Jul 11 19:05:58 2007
From: steve at ganz.name (Steve Ganz)
Date: Wed Jul 11 19:06:14 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
Message-ID: <002501c7c429$33ec5ce0$dfdefea9@FIVE>

On Wednesday, July 11, 2007 Guillaume Lebleu wrote:

> Let's say a web page uses an image such as a checkmark or 
> green/red light to represent a boolean, for instance the 
> availability/status of a product or a program.
> 
> What would be the suggested best practice to make this 
> human-readable content machine-readable as well?
> 
> I was thinking about the following options:
> 
> <img class="status" src="../red.gif" title="available"/>, 
> which is similar to the abbr pattern, but saves the addition 
> of a wrapping abbr element.
> 
> or using a CSS-based text by image replacement technique as 
> described in http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/ 
> to replace a <span> with an image.
> 

Personally, I would go with image replacement. I try to avoid inline images
unless they are communicating something that text alone cannot. In your
example, the green light/red light is presentational in nature and a design
choice which is best handled with CSS.

From mdagn at spraci.com  Thu Jul 12 00:51:17 2007
From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD)
Date: Thu Jul 12 00:51:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] CalConnect vCard Workshop - September 18,
	2007 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
References: <vfaR+2Kc8ykGFwmm@pigsonthewing.org.uk><e06e0e0b0707110729m107c6911i21759f91d15f3faa@mail.gmail.com>
	<ZIxsLYY3hRlGFw4P@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <002c01c7c459$6e34b570$116bacca@COMCEN>

Is anyone there going to mention applications that may need to combine vCard 
with iCal ?
...such as those which need some way to specify a location for an event with 
more detail than just a freeform text field -
or even just specify a city or country for an event in a way that can be 
used by machines.

(or is there already a standard way to do this?)

I know this can be done with hCal/hCard but I have not yet seen a desktop 
calender app where this kind of combination of data can be created or edited 
easily by non-technical users and part of the problem might be because 
generally such desktop apps use only vCard OR iCal (but don't provide a way 
to use both in combination!)




From lockoom at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 01:51:44 2007
From: lockoom at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Marek_Paw=B3owski?=)
Date: Thu Jul 12 01:51:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCard] Implied type=work
Message-ID: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I would like to ask shouldn't the type=work be implied on properties
"tel", "url" and "adr" if properties "fn" and "org" are of the same
value.
For example:
<div class="vcard">
   <a class="url fn org" href="http://example.com/">Example Corp.</a>
    <div> Phone:<span class="tel">+1.111.111.1111</span></div>
</div>

All existing implementations I've tested converted such hCard into
vCard with "phone" and "url" set as private (home).

I don't see such optmisation being mentioned in hcard spec so maybe
it's intentional. If so - why?

And second question, how you'd markup "url" property as "type=work"?

-- 
Best regards,
Marek Pawlowski
From microformats at fatbusinessman.com  Thu Jul 12 02:20:46 2007
From: microformats at fatbusinessman.com (David Thompson)
Date: Thu Jul 12 02:20:51 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
Message-ID: <4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>

Guillaume Lebleu wrote:
> Let's say a web page uses an image such as a checkmark or green/red 
> light to represent a boolean, for instance the availability/status of a 
> product or a program.
> 
> What would be the suggested best practice to make this human-readable 
> content machine-readable as well?

Ok, maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the 'alt' attribute 
precisely what you're looking for?

I'm not certain about other Microformats, but the hCard spec says:

 > If an <img> element is used for one or more properties, it must be
 > treated as follows:
 >
 >    1. For the 'photo' property and any other property that takes
 > a URL as its value, the src="..." attribute provides the property
 > value.
 >    2. For other properties, the <img> element's 'alt' attribute is
 > the value of the property.


-- 
David Thompson
From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 02:37:41 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Jul 12 02:37:44 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/07/07, David Thompson <microformats@fatbusinessman.com> wrote:
> Guillaume Lebleu wrote:
> > Let's say a web page uses an image such as a checkmark or green/red
> > light to represent a boolean, for instance the availability/status of a
> > product or a program.
> >
> > What would be the suggested best practice to make this human-readable
> > content machine-readable as well?
>
> Ok, maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the 'alt' attribute
> precisely what you're looking for?

I'm inclined to agree with this for in page images.  @alt should carry
all the descriptive information needed for the machine (or other
usergroups) needed.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Jul 12 02:43:54 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jul 12 02:43:58 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>

On Thu, July 12, 2007 10:37, Frances Berriman wrote:
> On 12/07/07, David Thompson <microformats@fatbusinessman.com> wrote:
>
>> Guillaume Lebleu wrote:

>>> What would be the suggested best practice to make this human-readable
>>>  content machine-readable as well?
>>
>> Ok, maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the 'alt' attribute
>> precisely what you're looking for?
>
> I'm inclined to agree with this for in page images.  @alt should carry
> all the descriptive information needed for the machine (or other
> usergroups) needed.

That rather depends on what you mean by "descriptive information". The alt
attribute should carry the *text alternative* for the *meaning* of the
image. So "available" might be correct, but "green ball" is not. Neither
is keyword-stuffing.

A useful rule of thumb is to read the page out loud, as though you are
doing so to someone, via a telephone. What would you say, when you came to
such an image?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

From fberriman at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 02:56:35 2007
From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman)
Date: Thu Jul 12 02:56:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>
	<47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
Message-ID: <e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/07/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, July 12, 2007 10:37, Frances Berriman wrote:
> > On 12/07/07, David Thompson <microformats@fatbusinessman.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Guillaume Lebleu wrote:
>
> >>> What would be the suggested best practice to make this human-readable
> >>>  content machine-readable as well?
> >>
> >> Ok, maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the 'alt' attribute
> >> precisely what you're looking for?
> >
> > I'm inclined to agree with this for in page images.  @alt should carry
> > all the descriptive information needed for the machine (or other
> > usergroups) needed.
>
> That rather depends on what you mean by "descriptive information". The alt
> attribute should carry the *text alternative* for the *meaning* of the
> image. So "available" might be correct, but "green ball" is not. Neither
> is keyword-stuffing.


Sure - I agree.  I was assuming what Guillaume was getting at was
wanting to say that an image on a page that is there as a green light
to say, for example, an order has been accepted, which should also
have a machine readable alternative, so therefore it seems acceptable
to me to use the @alt with the content of "Order accepted", perhaps.
That would make sense read out still.

> A useful rule of thumb is to read the page out loud, as though you are
> doing so to someone, via a telephone. What would you say, when you came to
> such an image?

Definitely.


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Thu Jul 12 03:13:57 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Thu Jul 12 03:14:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>
	<47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>

On Thu, July 12, 2007 10:56, Frances Berriman wrote:
> On 12/07/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

>> A useful rule of thumb is to read the page out loud, as though you are
>> doing so to someone, via a telephone. What would you say, when you came
>> to such an image?
>
> Definitely.

Furthermore, you would speak:

    <span class="fn"><img src="GothicLetterA.png" alt="A">ndy
    Mabbett</span>

as "Andy Mabbett", which is why microformats should also interpret it that
way.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 04:53:19 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Thu Jul 12 04:53:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>
	<47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>
	<23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780707120453l5557be4fx657b21f7cf8faf62@mail.gmail.com>

Just a friendly reminders, that all parsing questions, suggestions,
etc should be on the microformats-dev list.

I had a chat with mike kaply yesterday on IRC about some of these
issues. And we are looking into it with alternatives which can solve
these sorts of problems with existing solutions. namely, the
class="value"

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From mike at mkbergman.com  Thu Jul 12 14:31:47 2007
From: mike at mkbergman.com (Michael K. Bergman)
Date: Thu Jul 12 14:31:57 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [ANN] UMBEL Subject Reference Project
In-Reply-To: <ca111b2b0707110557r43fa231fg94b08b6d4c076dd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca111b2b0707110557r43fa231fg94b08b6d4c076dd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46969DC3.7070503@mkbergman.com>

Hi All,

You are cordially invited to comment or participate in the UMBEL (Upper 
Mapping and Binding Exchange Layer) project.

UMBEL is a lightweight way to describe the subject(s) of Web content, 
akin to the relationship "isAbout". It is meant to work universally with 
HTML, tagging, microformats or other standard practices, including 
various RDF schemas and more formal ontologies.  Its reference subject 
'backbone' is derived from the intersection of common subjects found on 
popularly used Web sites and other accepted subject references.

UMBEL is very simple with few ambitions.  It is merely a reference 'bag 
of subjects' to help relate Web data sets to one another.

UMBEL makes no presumptions to replace formal domain or upper 
ontologies, has little or no inferential power, and makes no assumptions 
about the means to describe or serialize the underlying data.  UMBEL is 
meant to work with data sets ranging from RSS and Atom feeds to tagging, 
microformats, RDF, existing schema and other data and metadata models. 
UMBEL's development is being backed by a number of leading open data 
efforts and entities.

In addition to its core reference subjects, the UMBEL project will be 
providing look up, query, registration, pinging, and related services. 
The project is completely open under a community process with all 
products available via Creative Commons licenses.

The initial project site is at http://www.umbel.org, including an 
introduction (http://www.umbel.org/intro.xhtml) (the best place to 
start!) and the draft project specification 
(http://www.umbel.org/proposal.xhtml).

A mailing list you can monitor or join is at 
http://groups.google.com/group/umbel-ontology.

We welcome and invite your participation!

Best regards,

Mike Bergman

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Please accept apologies in advance if you receive duplicate 
announcements; this was posted to a few appropriate mailing lists.

In future, all announcements will be made directly from the UMBEL Web site.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
-- 
______________________________

http://www.umbel.org
mailto:mike@mkbergman.com
______________________________
From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Fri Jul 13 03:50:43 2007
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster)
Date: Fri Jul 13 04:01:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Hidden metadata no microformats
References: <9+3FmlC$qhhGFw$2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<8ad71be30707021141q3077b537l2369f71823b7fdd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ZE$sozOTLYiGFwQk@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<001001c7bd02$009b4af0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<46898F8C.7090108@splintered.co.uk>
	<BS1KN9S5QpiGFwiH@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <312km4-9se.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>

Andy Mabbett wrote:

> I've still seen no citation for any *prohibition* of hidden data in 
> microformats...

I think it's probably best to say that hidden data is discouraged, and
when new microformats are being designed, they should be done so in a
manner that does not *rely* on hidden data.

When one finds oneself hiding data, one should ask oneself two questions:

	1. Would it be detrimental to show this information?
	2. If so, do I really need to include it at all?

Only when the answers to both questions are in the affirmative, is it then
wise to include hidden data.

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 22 days, 14:26.]

                          demiblog 0.2.0 Released
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/28/demiblog-0.2.0/

From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au  Fri Jul 13 07:30:29 2007
From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson)
Date: Fri Jul 13 07:32:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extension to hCard parsing to support forms
Message-ID: <1184337029.30572.272.camel@robslap>

Hi all,

I had a chat with Tantek on irc about the current limitations when using
forms with hCard etc.

He suggested I summarise the previous discussions from the mailing lists
on wiki - see:


http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Background_discussion:


I've also listed what I can see are the key issues for
discussion/resolution based upon these discussions and my own
testing/research - see:


http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Key_Issues.2Fdiscussion_points


I'd appreciate any help anyone can provide in this area as this has a
reasonable impact on some development I'm currently working on.

Thanks...



roBman


-- 
Rob Manson
Managing Director
http://paymentz.com.au
e: roBman@paymentz.com.au
m: 0423 215 731
t: 1300 662 857


Linked In Public Profile:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/b54/328


See me speak at WebDirections South:
http://www.webdirections.org/program/#manson


From scott at randomchaos.com  Fri Jul 13 08:14:05 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Fri Jul 13 08:14:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extension to hCard parsing to support forms
In-Reply-To: <1184337029.30572.272.camel@robslap>
References: <1184337029.30572.272.camel@robslap>
Message-ID: <2FC85AD8-2E75-4B41-ABE1-E33DE2926E23@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 13, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Rob Manson wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I had a chat with Tantek on irc about the current limitations when  
> using
> forms with hCard etc.

> I'd appreciate any help anyone can provide in this area as this has a
> reasonable impact on some development I'm currently working on.

Interestingly, re-reading what I wrote back then I seem to now  
completely disagree with myself then.  To clarify what we're talking  
about, I added examples of the markup proposed.  I'm not sure I  
captured everything right, so please edit any mistakes you see and/or  
confirm if it looks right.  After that's clarified, I think it would  
be good to use this markup to test the various claims made about how  
these proposals would work in existing parsers.  I suspect some of  
those claims (most likely those made by me) are demonstrably false,  
and should therefor be removed from the discussion.

Peace,
Scott
From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au  Fri Jul 13 09:03:30 2007
From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson)
Date: Fri Jul 13 09:05:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Extension to hCard parsing to support forms
In-Reply-To: <2FC85AD8-2E75-4B41-ABE1-E33DE2926E23@randomchaos.com>
References: <1184337029.30572.272.camel@robslap>
	<2FC85AD8-2E75-4B41-ABE1-E33DE2926E23@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <1184342610.30572.290.camel@robslap>

> Interestingly, re-reading what I wrote back then I seem to now  
> completely disagree with myself then.  To clarify what we're talking  
> about, I added examples of the markup proposed.  I'm not sure I  
> captured everything right, so please edit any mistakes you see and/or  
> confirm if it looks right.  


Some of my best disagreements are with myself 8)

The markup looks good to me...however I don't think the second one
should require the class to be in the <form> tag.  That's also why I
personally prefer the second option.  I think the following example
could be common too.  I also think we should add the value explicitly
since that's what we'd parse for.

<form ...>
<div class="vcard">
   <fieldset class="fn">
      <input type="text" class="given-name" name="first_name" value="Rob" />
      <input type="text" class="family-name" name="last_name" value="Manson" />
   </fieldset>
   ...
</div>
<div class="vcard">
   <fieldset class="fn">
      <input type="text" class="given-name" name="first_name" value="Scott" />
      <input type="text" class="family-name" name="last_name" value="Reynen" />
   </fieldset>
   ...
</div>
</form>


If there's no major complaints then I'll update the example markup...


> After that's clarified, I think it would  
> be good to use this markup to test the various claims made about how  
> these proposals would work in existing parsers.  I suspect some of  
> those claims (most likely those made by me) are demonstrably false,  
> and should therefor be removed from the discussion.


There are some other issues with the existing parsers in this model too
(see my issues list further down that wiki page -
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Key_Issues.2Fdiscussion_points )

For example <textarea class="given-name"> style tags already appear to
parse ok.  However the parsers (for example operator) only ever pickup
the content values at load time.  The same behaviour limitation is
obvious if you just view source after you've updated a field but not
submitted the form.  This may not be a major problem depending upon your
application...but unless the parser dynamically interacts with the DOM
then it does add a real constraint.

Also, beyond the standard INPUT fields things get a lot messier.
Personally I'd be happy to work around that with javascript onChange
functions to update 

<input type="hidden" class="given-name" name="first_name"
value="NewName" /> 

style fields...but I'm not sure if everyone would be happy with that.




-- 
Rob Manson
Managing Director
http://paymentz.com.au
e: roBman@paymentz.com.au
m: 0423 215 731
t: 1300 662 857


Linked In Public Profile:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/b54/328


See me speak at WebDirections South:
http://www.webdirections.org/program/#manson


From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Fri Jul 13 09:22:50 2007
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster)
Date: Fri Jul 13 10:01:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: definitive hCard on a page
References: <468B9211.3090306@ts0.com>
	<e86992a40707040536l3fbe1804v4058ade6e4e534f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<S3HekBZy8+iGFwTx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <qflkm4-9se.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>

Andy Mabbett wrote:

> Each of these people might have an hCard - but how do we indicate that 
> Paul McCartney's hCard is the primary one for the page?

<link rel="DC.subject"
      href="#paulmc"
      title="Paul McCartney">
<!-- ... -->
<div class="vcard" id="paulmc">
  <span class="fn">Paul McCartney</span>,<br>
  <span class="adr">
    <span class="type">Home</span>:
    <span class="street-address">?</span>,
    <span class="locality">Rye</span>,
    <span class="region">East Sussex</span>,
    <span class="country-name">United Kingdom</span>
  </span>
</div>

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 22 days, 19:55.]

                          demiblog 0.2.0 Released
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/28/demiblog-0.2.0/

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jul 13 16:48:08 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jul 13 16:49:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Last Call on iCalendar revision
Message-ID: <ttxxC8K48AmGFwUm@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


FYI. I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here already; though this 
is the first I'd heard of it:


In message <4697D91E.208@oracle.com>, Bernard Desruisseaux 
<bernard.desruisseaux@oracle.com> writes

>The Calsify WG Chairs have issued a Working Group Last Call on
>draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-07.txt (i.e., the revision of
>iCalendar).  See:
>
 > http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/2007-July/001762.html
 >
>People interested to know exactly what was changed in RFC 2445
>can look at the following annotated version of the draft:
>
 > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/calsify/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis/draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis-07.changes.html
 >
>Please send your comments to the ietf-calsify@osafoundation.org
>mailing list before August 10th, 2007.
>
>Cheers,
>Bernard


-- 
Andy Mabbett
From evan at prodromou.name  Sat Jul 14 04:28:02 2007
From: evan at prodromou.name (Evan Prodromou)
Date: Sat Jul 14 04:28:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Error messages
Message-ID: <4698B342.90204@prodromou.name>

One of the most common HTML patterns in Web applications is error
messages. We see them all the time on the Web: login errors, form
validation errors, backend errors and user input errors. But what if
this common pattern was standardized?

If HTML error messages all followed a similar format, we could have
browser plugins that recorded and analyzed the errors that come up. They
could either feed back this structured error data when we needed it --
say, when filing a bug report or talking to a tech support rep -- or use
the error data to help us find workarounds or documentation online.

I brought the idea up in the #microformats channel on Freenode, and it
got a good response, so I took the next step and created a list of
examples and a brainstorming page on the microformats wiki.

         http://microformats.org/wiki/error-message-examples
         http://microformats.org/wiki/error-message-brainstorming

I'd greatly appreciate the help of people on this list in collecting
error messages from the wild, and hopefully in building up a draft
microformat.

~Evan

-- 
Evan Prodromou - evan@prodromou.name - http://evan.prodromou.name/
From scott at randomchaos.com  Sat Jul 14 08:21:36 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sat Jul 14 08:21:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Error messages
In-Reply-To: <4698B342.90204@prodromou.name>
References: <4698B342.90204@prodromou.name>
Message-ID: <7E4838C6-7925-4D22-87E0-911D8DA7B5C6@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 14, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Evan Prodromou wrote:

> One of the most common HTML patterns in Web applications is error
> messages. We see them all the time on the Web: login errors, form
> validation errors, backend errors and user input errors. But what if
> this common pattern was standardized?

Hi Evan,

I've forwarded this to the microformats-new list [1], as this is a  
new microformat proposal.  Please continue this discussion there.

[1] http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new/

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jul 14 12:07:04 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jul 14 12:08:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Error messages
In-Reply-To: <7E4838C6-7925-4D22-87E0-911D8DA7B5C6@randomchaos.com>
References: <4698B342.90204@prodromou.name>
	<7E4838C6-7925-4D22-87E0-911D8DA7B5C6@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <V+5PGCBY7RmGFwiv@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <7E4838C6-7925-4D22-87E0-911D8DA7B5C6@randomchaos.com>, Scott 
Reynen <scott@randomchaos.com> writes

>I've forwarded this to the microformats-new list

When doing so, please remove "[uf-discuss]" from the subject header; as 
some people sort on that.

Thank you.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Sun Jul 15 01:13:08 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Sun Jul 15 01:13:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>	<47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>	<e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>
	<23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
Message-ID: <4699D714.1000100@xtra.co.nz>

Andy Mabbett wrote:

>Furthermore, you would speak:
>
>    <span class="fn"><img src="GothicLetterA.png" alt="A">ndy
>    Mabbett</span>
>
>as "Andy Mabbett", which is why microformats should also interpret it that
>way.
>
>  
>
That should be marked up in a more modern manner using CSS image 
replacement, which entirely resolves any issues.

<span class="fn"><span class="gothicletter a">A</span>ndy Mabbett</span>

-- 
Paul Wilkins
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jul 15 01:55:37 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jul 15 01:57:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <4699D714.1000100@xtra.co.nz>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>
	<47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>
	<23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<4699D714.1000100@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <wgtmBrEJEemGFw3k@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <4699D714.1000100@xtra.co.nz>, Paul Wilkins 
<paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes

>Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
>>Furthermore, you would speak:
>>
>>    <span class="fn"><img src="GothicLetterA.png" alt="A">ndy
>>    Mabbett</span>
>>
>>as "Andy Mabbett", which is why microformats should also interpret it that
>>way.
>>
>>
>That should be marked up in a more modern manner using CSS image 
>replacement, which entirely resolves any issues.
>
><span class="fn"><span class="gothicletter a">A</span>ndy 
>Mabbett</span>

That's a matter of opinion, and an option not open to users of some 
systems.

Besides, using microformats shouldn't require a publisher to use one 
valid method over another; the example I give above *is* valid.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com  Sun Jul 15 09:19:15 2007
From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis)
Date: Sun Jul 15 09:19:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <wgtmBrEJEemGFw3k@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>	<47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>	<e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>	<23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>	<4699D714.1000100@xtra.co.nz>
	<wgtmBrEJEemGFw3k@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <469A4903.2090104@googlemail.com>

Many CSS image replacement techniques are highly problematic for users 
with visual impairments. Let's say you hide some text off-screen and 
replace it with a background image. Let's say one of your users has 
colorblindness or otherwise impaired vision and needs to force 
particular background and foreground colors. They'll need to disable 
background-images as a matter of course. At that point your text is 
basically invisible unless they disable all your CSS. By contrast, if 
they disable HTML images, they'll see your alt text.

I haven't yet seen a flavour of image replacement without any 
accessibility issues (feel free to point me to one), and I don't think 
microformat parsing should assume the use of such fragile techniques.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In message <4699D714.1000100@xtra.co.nz>, Paul Wilkins 
> <paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes
> 
>> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
>>> Furthermore, you would speak:
>>>
>>>    <span class="fn"><img src="GothicLetterA.png" alt="A">ndy
>>>    Mabbett</span>
>>>
>>> as "Andy Mabbett", which is why microformats should also interpret it 
>>> that
>>> way.
>>>
>>>
>> That should be marked up in a more modern manner using CSS image 
>> replacement, which entirely resolves any issues.
>>
>> <span class="fn"><span class="gothicletter a">A</span>ndy Mabbett</span>
> 
> That's a matter of opinion, and an option not open to users of some 
> systems.
> 
> Besides, using microformats shouldn't require a publisher to use one 
> valid method over another; the example I give above *is* valid.
> 

From scott at randomchaos.com  Sun Jul 15 09:48:35 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sun Jul 15 09:48:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] making img machine-readable
In-Reply-To: <wgtmBrEJEemGFw3k@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <46956885.1080506@brixlogic.com>
	<4695F26E.2010207@fatbusinessman.com>
	<e86992a40707120237u379c0599l8eaeb61288b7df76@mail.gmail.com>
	<47065.80.86.36.97.1184233434.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<e86992a40707120256h19896300hb5aac4eb40f0e593@mail.gmail.com>
	<23416.80.86.36.97.1184235237.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<4699D714.1000100@xtra.co.nz>
	<wgtmBrEJEemGFw3k@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <2BC6A87A-E59D-44B6-8CD4-38C7CDBD5264@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 15, 2007, at 2:55 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> That should be marked up in a more modern manner using CSS image  
>> replacement, which entirely resolves any issues.
>>
>> <span class="fn"><span class="gothicletter a">A</span>ndy Mabbett</ 
>> span>
>
> That's a matter of opinion, and an option not open to users of some  
> systems.

What systems specifically?  And what publishers?  If the above  
publishing method presents real world problems, we should identify  
them as specifically as possible to explore alternative solutions.   
But we can't do that without any details.

> Besides, using microformats shouldn't require a publisher to use  
> one valid method over another; the example I give above *is* valid.

It passes the validator, but I think it's very questionable whether  
it adheres to the HTML spec, which says "since style sheets offer  
more powerful presentation mechanisms, the World Wide Web Consortium  
will eventually phase out many of HTML's presentation elements and  
attributes" [1].  There's also a recommendation of "Separate  
structure and presentation" [2].  The idea behind the introduction of  
style sheets was to move styling such as gothic letters into styles  
sheets and out of HTML documents, which are intended for content  
only.  Such styling still makes it through the validator, and so does  
alt="top left corner".  Both are discouraged in the spec.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/intro.html#h-2.3.5
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/intro.html#h-2.4.1

Peace,
Scott

From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Mon Jul 16 03:08:21 2007
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster)
Date: Mon Jul 16 04:01:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Generating valid unique IDs for hAtom
References: <89AA03DF-95A1-451E-BDCD-6D454FD2095B@ben-ward.co.uk>
Message-ID: <llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>

Ben Ward wrote:

> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/05/28/howto-atom-id
> It includes instructions on generating Tag URIs and also explains why  
> permalinks are sub-optimal as IDs.

And the reasons he gives are:

	1. In case developers of Atom clients are stupid; and
	2. In case your permalinks change.

#1 is an exercise in making things foolproof, which is not even worth
bothering trying, as those fools can be so ingenious. As for #2, it's
fixing the wrong problem: if changing permalinks causes the Atom ID to
change, then you should fix your permalinks which are not supposed to
change!

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 25 days, 13:44.]

                          demiblog 0.2.0 Released
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/28/demiblog-0.2.0/

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Jul 16 04:10:02 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Jul 16 04:10:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Generating valid unique IDs for hAtom
In-Reply-To: <llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
References: <89AA03DF-95A1-451E-BDCD-6D454FD2095B@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
Message-ID: <21e523c20707160410p63b96ecevf34256c40f837453@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/16/07, Toby A Inkster <mail@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:

> #1 is an exercise in making things foolproof, which is not even worth
> bothering trying, as those fools can be so ingenious. As for #2, it's
> fixing the wrong problem: if changing permalinks causes the Atom ID to
> change, then you should fix your permalinks which are not supposed to
> change!

There's lots of reasons a permalink may change -- for example, another
site may be reposting the message, in which case it has a different
permalink but a different Atom ID. The beauty here is that an
intelligent feed reader won't show it to you twice.

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Mon Jul 16 06:51:14 2007
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster)
Date: Mon Jul 16 07:01:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Generating valid unique IDs for hAtom
References: <89AA03DF-95A1-451E-BDCD-6D454FD2095B@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
	<21e523c20707160410p63b96ecevf34256c40f837453@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <in9sm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>

David Janes wrote:

> There's lots of reasons a permalink may change -- for example, another
> site may be reposting the message, in which case it has a different
> permalink but a different Atom ID. The beauty here is that an
> intelligent feed reader won't show it to you twice.

Why repost? Why not just link to the original article? In which case it
has the same Permalink and the same Atom ID. The beauty here is that an
intelligent browser won't hit the server twice (it will retrieve the
article from the cache) and it will mark the link purple to indicate that
you've already read the page.

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 25 days, 17:29.]

                          demiblog 0.2.0 Released
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/28/demiblog-0.2.0/

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Mon Jul 16 08:17:05 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Mon Jul 16 08:17:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Generating valid unique IDs for hAtom
In-Reply-To: <in9sm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
References: <89AA03DF-95A1-451E-BDCD-6D454FD2095B@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
	<21e523c20707160410p63b96ecevf34256c40f837453@mail.gmail.com>
	<in9sm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
Message-ID: <21e523c20707160817y524ef2c9vd95627f42bf8d665@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/16/07, Toby A Inkster <mail@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:
> Why repost? Why not just link to the original article? In which case it
> has the same Permalink and the same Atom ID. The beauty here is that an
> intelligent browser won't hit the server twice (it will retrieve the
> article from the cache) and it will mark the link purple to indicate that
> you've already read the page.

Perhaps the appropriate forum for this question is the Atom mailing
list. Note that they've spent about a 1000 person years figuring this
stuff out and have been working with syndication etc. for a
significant portion of their professional lives.

Regards, etc...

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jul 16 09:12:15 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jul 16 09:12:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Generating valid unique IDs for hAtom
In-Reply-To: <llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
References: <89AA03DF-95A1-451E-BDCD-6D454FD2095B@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
Message-ID: <052532BB-D105-421C-B514-6E8BD23DF94A@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 16 Jul 2007, at 11:08, Toby A Inkster wrote:
> As for #2, it's
> fixing the wrong problem: if changing permalinks causes the Atom ID to
> change, then you should fix your permalinks which are not supposed to
> change!

Of course _perma_links are not supposed to change. But I think the  
point that Mark Pilgrim makes, and one that I agree with, is that  
principal does and will collapse in real-world tools.

Migrating between CMS systems, rebranding to a new domain name,  
switching advocacy to support the ?no-WWW? movement? All perfectly  
likely and reasonable things to do, which CMS's generating permalinks  
have not been designed to support and a problem which, regardless of  
the ideal, many (most?) authors simply won't account for.

There may not be a solution to this. Fitting a tag URI into page  
content seems clumsy for sure, and those same CMS systems that make  
permalinks less-than permanent are publishing dynamically generataed  
permalink URLs as IDs all the while. I'm not sure that we're in a  
position to ?fix? the problem. But I think we should try to exhaust  
the non URL options thoroughly.

Ben
From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Mon Jul 16 09:18:52 2007
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby Inkster)
Date: Mon Jul 16 09:18:55 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Generating valid unique IDs for hAtom
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20707160817y524ef2c9vd95627f42bf8d665@mail.gmail.com>
References: <89AA03DF-95A1-451E-BDCD-6D454FD2095B@ben-ward.co.uk>
	<llsrm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
	<21e523c20707160410p63b96ecevf34256c40f837453@mail.gmail.com>
	<in9sm4-mvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
	<21e523c20707160817y524ef2c9vd95627f42bf8d665@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50882.91.84.42.38.1184602732.squirrel@goddamn.co.uk>

> Note that they've spent about a 1000 person years figuring this
> stuff out and have been working with syndication etc. for a
> significant portion of their professional lives.

And I don't disagree with them -- just with Mark Pilgrim's claim than a
(true) Permalink is a poor Atom ID.

-Toby
From microformats at 200ok.com.au  Tue Jul 17 07:16:26 2007
From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan)
Date: Tue Jul 17 07:16:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] T-shirt sales
In-Reply-To: <99642B3F-F596-4BCA-8508-6C4F646AD44B@kilic.net>
References: <uALhp+S2$LfGFwPM@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<46CB1E06-93D4-4C53-A8F9-164B70432B6D@kilic.net>
	<467F9C9C.3070508@ts0.com>
	<1bc4603e0706291951h877fa48m91dbb06e1fec43f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<99642B3F-F596-4BCA-8508-6C4F646AD44B@kilic.net>
Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0707170716r277587a5ycc578167200ceb79@mail.gmail.com>

> > Are folks interested in buying any variety of MF shirts?

So long as they're black ;)

> I'm interested in getting a few shirts (as long as though shipping to
> Australia is reasonable).

Same here.

Ben

-- 
--- <http://weblog.200ok.com.au/>
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
From microformats at 200ok.com.au  Tue Jul 17 07:24:07 2007
From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan)
Date: Tue Jul 17 07:24:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCard] Implied type=work
In-Reply-To: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0707170724h3ea52ce6t4c182a35ad7919c9@mail.gmail.com>

> All existing implementations I've tested converted such hCard into
> vCard with "phone" and "url" set as private (home).
> I don't see such optmisation being mentioned in hcard spec so maybe
> it's intentional. If so - why?

I've found type issues to be perhaps the most annoying thing about
trying to create corporate hCards. In the real world, having to
visibly set the type means having to hide text that just doesn't sound
right. AFter all, on a corporate website you'd never naturally say
"work phone".

As to why it's not in the spec, I suspect that'd be because it wasn't
in vCard (IIRC).

> And second question, how you'd markup "url" property as "type=work"?

The underlying problem is that vCard doesn't/didn't have any type
options for URLs, so it didn't flow through to hCard. I personally
would be happy to use multiple classes to type certain values, but
that pattern has been rejected. Cest la vie.

cheers,
Ben

-- 
--- <http://weblog.200ok.com.au/>
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
From mejllistor at kodfabrik.se  Tue Jul 17 07:40:40 2007
From: mejllistor at kodfabrik.se (Pelle W)
Date: Tue Jul 17 07:41:14 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCard] Implied type=work
In-Reply-To: <6ca82b0f0707170724h3ea52ce6t4c182a35ad7919c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ca82b0f0707170724h3ea52ce6t4c182a35ad7919c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469CD4E8.1070608@kodfabrik.se>

Ben Buchanan skrev:
> I've found type issues to be perhaps the most annoying thing about
> trying to create corporate hCards. In the real world, having to
> visibly set the type means having to hide text that just doesn't sound
> right. AFter all, on a corporate website you'd never naturally say
> "work phone".
I have the same feeling - not that often that the word "work" is used 
anywhere in swedish text - I haven't investigated it further though but 
at a first glance it seems like hCards in this aspect haven't got any 
internationalisation at all...

/ Pelle

From khare at alumni.caltech.edu  Tue Jul 17 16:15:53 2007
From: khare at alumni.caltech.edu (khare@alumni.caltech.edu)
Date: Tue Jul 17 16:16:06 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on
	the wiki
Message-ID: <53829.64.142.103.248.1184714153.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>

[This email is a current copy of the wiki page at
Category:public_domain_license ; I wanted to prompt discussion here as
well as fold substantive feedback back into that wiki page, of course...
Thanks, Rohit]

   By adding the public domain license template to your user profile page,
   you can ensure that your contributions to the microformats.org
   community wiki and mailing lists are available as openly as possible.
   As more users choose to adopt it, much of the wiki's content will
   become available under clear, free terms.

   You can add it to your profile by 1) logging in, 2) clicking on your
   name at the very top of the web page (the username link on the right
   side has a little "person" icon), 3) clicking Edit (or ctrl-E/alt-E),
   4) pasting the following text into the bottom of your page, and 5)
   clicking Save (ctrl-S/alt-S);

   {{public-domain-release}}

Why Public Domain?

   In the recent past, several kinds of legal concerns have been
   expressed, notably in the Legal Issues and IP sections of
   microformats-issues [6] (which in turn points to some
   mailing list posts [7-9].

   One way to address some of these concerns is for individual
   contributors to decide for themselves if they'd like to put their own
   individual contributions to the wiki, mailing lists, blog, and IRC
   channel into the public domain. Inspired by Wikipedia, there's a new
   template that you can add to your profile to indicate your support for
   this option, which ensures the broadest possible reuse of your
   contributions in future discussions, specifications, and in other media
   (such as a book [10]).

   What difference will this make? If enough contributors eventually
   support this, entire pages of the wiki will become public-domain works,
   not just their individual snippets. All of the admins [10a] have already
   signed up for this, for example. If any other person or company has
   any qualms about citing our documents, this clarifies the legal
   situation considerably: no license is even required any more. Note that
   this can only affect copyright -- patents are another matter entirely,
   but at least building a thriving body of knowledge around microformats
   is the best response, by establishing "prior art."

   At the moment this experiment does not (yet) supercede the boilerplate
   at Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004 [11], which may be updated
   for some pages when and if all of their contributors choose to adopt
   this convention. -- Rohit 2007-07-17

Disclaimer

   Unlike other efforts that might come to mind, it's important to note
   that microformats are not "standards," microformats.org is not a
   "standards body" (legal sense [13]),
   and that the microformats admins are not a "legal entity" (and nor do
   they have any official links to CommerceNet or Technorati, two
   companies that were influential early sponsors). For that matter,
   there's no bank account or any other financial standing; if you see a
   hip new microformats sticker [14] out there, it's a private donation
   (in that case, by Dan Cederholm).

Acknowledgements

   The original inspiration for this experiment was Wikipedia's own
   public domain release [17], which was suggested on the #microformats
   IRC channel on 21 June 2007 [18] by the user unfo [19]. Microformats
   community co-founder Eric Meyer's placement of the microformat-based S5
   slide presentation system into the Public Domain on 2005-07-28 [20] set
   an important early good example, just over a month after the launch of
   microformats.org. Recently, Andy Mabbett's contribution of a sample
   Semacode [21] image also suggested this approach. There's an FAQ about
   multi-licensing on Wikipedia [22] for more information, but do note that
   it does not necessarily apply to microformats.org directly, since this
   isn't a site governed by GFDL, for example.

Point of Contact

   While community members are generally encouraged to discuss matters
   openly, if you have a specific legal questions, please contact
   Rohit Khare [24], who has volunteered to be the initial point of contact
   for the administrators, before starting a discussion on the public,
   archived mailing lists, IRC, or wiki, since there can be occasionally
   be legal implications for statements published on the microformats.org
   domain.

References
   6. http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-issues
   7.
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007088.html
   8.
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-April/009438.html
   9.
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-April/000247.html
  10. http://microformats.org/blog/2007/04/19/microformats-the-book/
  10a. http://microformats.org/wiki/governance#Admins
  11. http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004
  13. http://consortiuminfo.org/laws/
  14. http://www.flickr.com/photos/73921563@N00/639108451
  15. http://simplebits.com/
  17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Public_domain_release
  18. http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-06-21#T000102
  19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Unforgettableid
  20. http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/07/28/s5-11/
  21. http://microformats.org/wiki/semacode
  22. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ram-Man/MLFAQ
  24. http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Rohit

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 18 01:17:05 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 18 01:18:28 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on the
	wiki
In-Reply-To: <53829.64.142.103.248.1184714153.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <53829.64.142.103.248.1184714153.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <sjuRxDCBycnGFwcL@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<53829.64.142.103.248.1184714153.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>, 
khare@alumni.caltech.edu writes

>   At the moment this experiment does not (yet) supercede the 
>boilerplate
>   at Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004, which may be updated
>   for some pages when and if all of their contributors choose to adopt
>   this convention.

I'll consider making all my contributions PD only once that statement is 
removed from the specs, and they're made available as PD, or under a 
free license.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Wed Jul 18 01:24:30 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Wed Jul 18 01:24:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCard] Implied type=work
In-Reply-To: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10707180124r1c5f0a78i10ea8879df97a751@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/12/07, Marek Paw?owski <lockoom@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to ask shouldn't the type=work be implied on properties
> "tel", "url" and "adr" if properties "fn" and "org" are of the same
> value.

Certainly sounds worth considering.

> All existing implementations I've tested converted such hCard into
> vCard with "phone" and "url" set as private (home).

That's a vCard rule.

I think technically a hCard @class="tel" without a type should be
converted to something like:
TEL:02076115040 and the consuming application default it to 'home',
but Outlook doesn't like vCard TEL without a TYPE, so most converting
apps will insert the default type explicitly.

-Ciaran McNulty

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 02:02:45 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Wed Jul 18 02:02:49 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCard] Implied type=work
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10707180124r1c5f0a78i10ea8879df97a751@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10707180124r1c5f0a78i10ea8879df97a751@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780707180202qab20a2eh3653c67b019632c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Ciaran McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> wrote:
> ... Outlook doesn't like vCard TEL without a TYPE, so most converting
> apps will insert the default type explicitly.

--- this is a known issue with Outlook.
http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#TEL

please document any other issues on that page as well. It will help
others in the future find the problems on the wiki and through Google
searches.

thanks,
-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Wed Jul 18 02:38:27 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Wed Jul 18 02:38:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCard] Implied type=work
In-Reply-To: <21e770780707180202qab20a2eh3653c67b019632c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10707180124r1c5f0a78i10ea8879df97a751@mail.gmail.com>
	<21e770780707180202qab20a2eh3653c67b019632c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10707180238p102c6d69tb7ac99b035700801@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Brian Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
> --- this is a known issue with Outlook.
> http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#TEL

I know, that's where I found out about it! :-)

-Ciaran McNulty
From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 07:58:56 2007
From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar)
Date: Wed Jul 18 07:59:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on
	the wiki
In-Reply-To: <sjuRxDCBycnGFwcL@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <53829.64.142.103.248.1184714153.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
	<sjuRxDCBycnGFwcL@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <26C1FA34-A3CD-4404-9516-008DC3AF206C@gmail.com>

Hi Andy,

On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:17 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>   At the moment this experiment does not (yet) supercede the  
>> boilerplate
>>   at Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004, which may be updated
>>   for some pages when and if all of their contributors choose to  
>> adopt
>>   this convention.
>
> I'll consider making all my contributions PD only once that  
> statement is removed from the specs, and they're made available as  
> PD, or under a free license.

Sounds like we need some way to track which contributors to a  
particular spec have made such a dedication.  Any volunteers?

-- Ernie P.

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 18 08:27:42 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 18 08:27:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled 
	on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <26C1FA34-A3CD-4404-9516-008DC3AF206C@gmail.com>
References: <53829.64.142.103.248.1184714153.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
	<sjuRxDCBycnGFwcL@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<26C1FA34-A3CD-4404-9516-008DC3AF206C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22021.80.86.36.97.1184772462.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>

On Wed, July 18, 2007 15:58, Ernest Prabhakar wrote:

> On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:17 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
>>> At the moment this experiment does not (yet) supercede the
>>> boilerplate at Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004, which may be
>>> updated for some pages when and if all of their contributors choose to
>>>  adopt this convention.
>>
>> I'll consider making all my contributions PD only once that
>> statement is removed from the specs, and they're made available as PD, or
>> under a free license.
>
> Sounds like we need some way to track which contributors to a
> particular spec have made such a dedication.  Any volunteers?

I don't think that will help, because people using the PD template have
explicitly excluded pages using the MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004
template, or indeed any other such claim), with the words "unless
otherwise stated".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jul 18 11:34:18 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jul 18 11:34:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled
	on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <22021.80.86.36.97.1184772462.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
Message-ID: <C2C3AB07.922E4%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 7/18/07 8:27 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, July 18, 2007 15:58, Ernest Prabhakar wrote:
> 
>> On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:17 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> 
>>>> At the moment this experiment does not (yet) supercede the
>>>> boilerplate at Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004, which may be
>>>> updated for some pages when and if all of their contributors choose to
>>>>  adopt this convention.
>>> 
>>> I'll consider making all my contributions PD only once that
>>> statement is removed from the specs, and they're made available as PD, or
>>> under a free license.
>> 
>> Sounds like we need some way to track which contributors to a
>> particular spec have made such a dedication.  Any volunteers?
> 
> I don't think that will help, because people using the PD template have
> explicitly excluded pages using the MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004
> template, or indeed any other such claim), with the words "unless
> otherwise stated".

That phrasing "unless otherwise stated" was taken from the Wikipedia
public-domain-release.

I can understand how that perception of exclusion could be a concern, though
certainly from my perspective, that was not the intent.

For specifications where I am the sole author/editor, I have simply removed
the MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004 template.

For specifications where I am a (co)-author or editor, I have updated the
them with an explicit public domain release from me.

I encourage other authors to do the same (as well as add the
{{public-domain-release}} to their user pages.

For each specification that all the authors have done so, we can remove the
MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004 template.

Thanks,

Tantek

From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jul 18 14:35:36 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Wed Jul 18 14:35:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hCard] Implied type=work
References: <dce388f30707120151t5f52da1ay2a722bed2114e52b@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdc278e10707180124r1c5f0a78i10ea8879df97a751@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c7c983$943357c0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>

From: "Ciaran McNulty" <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com>
> I think technically a hCard @class="tel" without a type should be
> converted to something like:
> TEL:02076115040 and the consuming application default it to 'home',
> but Outlook doesn't like vCard TEL without a TYPE, so most converting
> apps will insert the default type explicitly.

As the person is wanting the work attribute to be included without actually 
specifying it, why can't an include pattern be used to specify the desired 
work attribute.

-- 
Paul Wilkins 

From lists at reb.net.nz  Thu Jul 19 19:06:46 2007
From: lists at reb.net.nz (Rebecca Cox)
Date: Thu Jul 19 19:06:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] UTC Datetime formats & Google calendar
Message-ID: <5abc9130707191906l2d8aec87ve9f333759a9e30b1@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Apologies if this has previously been asked.

I've been trying out hcalendar and been having some issues with the
datetime format.

I'm in New Zealand (UTC +12), am using Operator to add my hcalendar
events to Google calendar.

If I use the hcalendar creator
http://microformats.org/code/hcalendar/creator - this puts in the time
format with offset from UTC appended, like so:

<abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900+1200">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>

All good, but Google Calendar doesn't like it, gives an error when you
try to add an event to your calendar via Operator.

If I markup times with no UTC offset, ie in my local time:

<abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>

Google Calendar will grab the event OK, all good under the assumption
that the time is given for timezone of the event's location. Not so
useful if the event is online or otherwise more than one timezone.

If I markup times in UTC time, but display the NZ time eg:

<abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT</abbr>

Google Calendar also likes this one, and will convert the UTC time to
my local time. Useful, but perhaps doesn't give the user enough
control over how the timezones are handled?

Perhaps this is a non issue. Say someone in the UK added my event, to
be held in New Zealand, to their Google Calendar. It would get
displayed to them in UK time. Then say they travelled for the event,
and switched their calendar timezone to NZ time while they were here,
so keeping to the correct time for the event. I guess the issue is
making it clear to the user that this is what will happen?

My thoughts are, for an event located in New Zealand perhaps do something like:

<abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT,
(July 19, 2007  9pm UTC)</abbr>

What are people's thoughts on giving times, would you normally just
give the local time and not worry about timezones? What about for
online events where the timezone does matter?

Also wondering if any of the other hcalendar - using applications or
services have problems when times are given with the offset?
(20070720T0900+1200)

Cheers,
Rebecca
From microformats at kaply.com  Thu Jul 19 20:16:35 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Thu Jul 19 20:16:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] UTC Datetime formats & Google calendar
In-Reply-To: <5abc9130707191906l2d8aec87ve9f333759a9e30b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5abc9130707191906l2d8aec87ve9f333759a9e30b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0707192016q321b782dkb669b1266b896b7b@mail.gmail.com>

Operator should be converting that tzoffset (+1200) and passing it to
Google Calendar correctly.

What version of Operator are you using?

Mike Kaply

On 7/19/07, Rebecca Cox <lists@reb.net.nz> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Apologies if this has previously been asked.
>
> I've been trying out hcalendar and been having some issues with the
> datetime format.
>
> I'm in New Zealand (UTC +12), am using Operator to add my hcalendar
> events to Google calendar.
>
> If I use the hcalendar creator
> http://microformats.org/code/hcalendar/creator - this puts in the time
> format with offset from UTC appended, like so:
>
> <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900+1200">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>
>
> All good, but Google Calendar doesn't like it, gives an error when you
> try to add an event to your calendar via Operator.
>
> If I markup times with no UTC offset, ie in my local time:
>
> <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>
>
> Google Calendar will grab the event OK, all good under the assumption
> that the time is given for timezone of the event's location. Not so
> useful if the event is online or otherwise more than one timezone.
>
> If I markup times in UTC time, but display the NZ time eg:
>
> <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT</abbr>
>
> Google Calendar also likes this one, and will convert the UTC time to
> my local time. Useful, but perhaps doesn't give the user enough
> control over how the timezones are handled?
>
> Perhaps this is a non issue. Say someone in the UK added my event, to
> be held in New Zealand, to their Google Calendar. It would get
> displayed to them in UK time. Then say they travelled for the event,
> and switched their calendar timezone to NZ time while they were here,
> so keeping to the correct time for the event. I guess the issue is
> making it clear to the user that this is what will happen?
>
> My thoughts are, for an event located in New Zealand perhaps do something like:
>
> <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT,
> (July 19, 2007  9pm UTC)</abbr>
>
> What are people's thoughts on giving times, would you normally just
> give the local time and not worry about timezones? What about for
> online events where the timezone does matter?
>
> Also wondering if any of the other hcalendar - using applications or
> services have problems when times are given with the offset?
> (20070720T0900+1200)
>
> Cheers,
> Rebecca
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From lists at reb.net.nz  Thu Jul 19 20:24:55 2007
From: lists at reb.net.nz (Rebecca Cox)
Date: Thu Jul 19 20:24:59 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] UTC Datetime formats & Google calendar
In-Reply-To: <e06e0e0b0707192016q321b782dkb669b1266b896b7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5abc9130707191906l2d8aec87ve9f333759a9e30b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<e06e0e0b0707192016q321b782dkb669b1266b896b7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5abc9130707192024m15ea7acdh8fa96dc1d8b64375@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks. I'm using Operator 0.7, Firefox 2.0.0.5 / Win.

Rebecca

On 7/20/07, Mike Kaply <microformats@kaply.com> wrote:
> Operator should be converting that tzoffset (+1200) and passing it to
> Google Calendar correctly.
>
> What version of Operator are you using?
>
> Mike Kaply
>
> On 7/19/07, Rebecca Cox <lists@reb.net.nz> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Apologies if this has previously been asked.
> >
> > I've been trying out hcalendar and been having some issues with the
> > datetime format.
> >
> > I'm in New Zealand (UTC +12), am using Operator to add my hcalendar
> > events to Google calendar.
> >
> > If I use the hcalendar creator
> > http://microformats.org/code/hcalendar/creator - this puts in the time
> > format with offset from UTC appended, like so:
> >
> > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900+1200">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>
> >
> > All good, but Google Calendar doesn't like it, gives an error when you
> > try to add an event to your calendar via Operator.
> >
> > If I markup times with no UTC offset, ie in my local time:
> >
> > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>
> >
> > Google Calendar will grab the event OK, all good under the assumption
> > that the time is given for timezone of the event's location. Not so
> > useful if the event is online or otherwise more than one timezone.
> >
> > If I markup times in UTC time, but display the NZ time eg:
> >
> > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT</abbr>
> >
> > Google Calendar also likes this one, and will convert the UTC time to
> > my local time. Useful, but perhaps doesn't give the user enough
> > control over how the timezones are handled?
> >
> > Perhaps this is a non issue. Say someone in the UK added my event, to
> > be held in New Zealand, to their Google Calendar. It would get
> > displayed to them in UK time. Then say they travelled for the event,
> > and switched their calendar timezone to NZ time while they were here,
> > so keeping to the correct time for the event. I guess the issue is
> > making it clear to the user that this is what will happen?
> >
> > My thoughts are, for an event located in New Zealand perhaps do something like:
> >
> > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT,
> > (July 19, 2007  9pm UTC)</abbr>
> >
> > What are people's thoughts on giving times, would you normally just
> > give the local time and not worry about timezones? What about for
> > online events where the timezone does matter?
> >
> > Also wondering if any of the other hcalendar - using applications or
> > services have problems when times are given with the offset?
> > (20070720T0900+1200)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rebecca
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
>
From florian.beer at gmail.com  Fri Jul 20 01:52:37 2007
From: florian.beer at gmail.com (Florian Beer)
Date: Fri Jul 20 01:52:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats thesis
Message-ID: <3826CB78-F2B6-4BEA-AFF6-0337E37CA640@gmail.com>

Hi,
in case someone is interested...

I recently finished my studies and graduated as "Diplomingenieur (FH)  
f?r technisch-wissenschaftliche Berufe" in Autria. As my thesis I  
wrote a paper on the semantic web an Microformats. Unfortunately it's  
in german, but I thought I'd post it here anyway, since it seems to  
be one of very few Microformats publications these days.

The full title is "Das semantische Web und wie Microformats die  
Entwicklung vorantreiben werden" which roughly translates to "The  
semantic web and how Microformats will help it?s advancement".

You can download it here
http://blog.no-panic.at/projects/microformats-thesis/

I'd love to hear feedback, if possible :)

cheers,
Florian


From jrrodgers at gmail.com  Fri Jul 20 05:26:39 2007
From: jrrodgers at gmail.com (Jesse Rodgers)
Date: Fri Jul 20 05:26:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats thesis
In-Reply-To: <3826CB78-F2B6-4BEA-AFF6-0337E37CA640@gmail.com>
References: <3826CB78-F2B6-4BEA-AFF6-0337E37CA640@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88190c0f0707200526l7d21f6a1g8d5294ff090aa874@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting. I was just outlining a similar paper for my msc... If an
English translation becomes available of yours I would very much like
to see it.

Anyone else have an academic paper to share?

Jesse

On 7/20/07, Florian Beer <florian.beer@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> in case someone is interested...
>
> I recently finished my studies and graduated as "Diplomingenieur (FH)
> f?r technisch-wissenschaftliche Berufe" in Autria. As my thesis I
> wrote a paper on the semantic web an Microformats. Unfortunately it's
> in german, but I thought I'd post it here anyway, since it seems to
> be one of very few Microformats publications these days.
>
> The full title is "Das semantische Web und wie Microformats die
> Entwicklung vorantreiben werden" which roughly translates to "The
> semantic web and how Microformats will help it's advancement".
>
> You can download it here
> http://blog.no-panic.at/projects/microformats-thesis/
>
> I'd love to hear feedback, if possible :)
>
> cheers,
> Florian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From microformats at kaply.com  Fri Jul 20 08:55:36 2007
From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply)
Date: Fri Jul 20 08:55:47 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] UTC Datetime formats & Google calendar
In-Reply-To: <5abc9130707192024m15ea7acdh8fa96dc1d8b64375@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5abc9130707191906l2d8aec87ve9f333759a9e30b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<e06e0e0b0707192016q321b782dkb669b1266b896b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<5abc9130707192024m15ea7acdh8fa96dc1d8b64375@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e06e0e0b0707200855s50bd5c06q65dc4b3cc298bae8@mail.gmail.com>

Operator 0.8 has fixes related to timezones, etc. so these problems
should go away.

the beta is here:

http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2007/07/03/operator-08b-is-available/

Thanks!

Mike Kaply

On 7/19/07, Rebecca Cox <lists@reb.net.nz> wrote:
> Thanks. I'm using Operator 0.7, Firefox 2.0.0.5 / Win.
>
> Rebecca
>
> On 7/20/07, Mike Kaply <microformats@kaply.com> wrote:
> > Operator should be converting that tzoffset (+1200) and passing it to
> > Google Calendar correctly.
> >
> > What version of Operator are you using?
> >
> > Mike Kaply
> >
> > On 7/19/07, Rebecca Cox <lists@reb.net.nz> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Apologies if this has previously been asked.
> > >
> > > I've been trying out hcalendar and been having some issues with the
> > > datetime format.
> > >
> > > I'm in New Zealand (UTC +12), am using Operator to add my hcalendar
> > > events to Google calendar.
> > >
> > > If I use the hcalendar creator
> > > http://microformats.org/code/hcalendar/creator - this puts in the time
> > > format with offset from UTC appended, like so:
> > >
> > > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900+1200">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>
> > >
> > > All good, but Google Calendar doesn't like it, gives an error when you
> > > try to add an event to your calendar via Operator.
> > >
> > > If I markup times with no UTC offset, ie in my local time:
> > >
> > > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070720T0900">July 20, 2007  9am</abbr>
> > >
> > > Google Calendar will grab the event OK, all good under the assumption
> > > that the time is given for timezone of the event's location. Not so
> > > useful if the event is online or otherwise more than one timezone.
> > >
> > > If I markup times in UTC time, but display the NZ time eg:
> > >
> > > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT</abbr>
> > >
> > > Google Calendar also likes this one, and will convert the UTC time to
> > > my local time. Useful, but perhaps doesn't give the user enough
> > > control over how the timezones are handled?
> > >
> > > Perhaps this is a non issue. Say someone in the UK added my event, to
> > > be held in New Zealand, to their Google Calendar. It would get
> > > displayed to them in UK time. Then say they travelled for the event,
> > > and switched their calendar timezone to NZ time while they were here,
> > > so keeping to the correct time for the event. I guess the issue is
> > > making it clear to the user that this is what will happen?
> > >
> > > My thoughts are, for an event located in New Zealand perhaps do something like:
> > >
> > > <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070719T2100Z">July 20, 2007  9am NZT,
> > > (July 19, 2007  9pm UTC)</abbr>
> > >
> > > What are people's thoughts on giving times, would you normally just
> > > give the local time and not worry about timezones? What about for
> > > online events where the timezone does matter?
> > >
> > > Also wondering if any of the other hcalendar - using applications or
> > > services have problems when times are given with the offset?
> > > (20070720T0900+1200)
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Rebecca
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
From aarron at aarronwalter.com  Fri Jul 20 12:01:00 2007
From: aarron at aarronwalter.com (Aarron Walter)
Date: Fri Jul 20 12:01:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Search Engines and Microformats
Message-ID: <512748C9-3795-4750-9F4D-37405E64F9A8@aarronwalter.com>

I've been searching for any information about the degree to which  
search engines currently take advantage of Microformats for indexing  
content.
Can anyone tell me:

? When crawling pages, do Google, Yahoo!, or MSN recognize hCard,  
hCalendar, or other Microformats, and if so, do they do anything with  
them (populate local search indexes, shared events calendars, etc.)
? I know that Yahoo! publishes a huge volume of content in  
Microformats, but do Google or MSN as well?
? Are any employees of the major search companies contributing to  
Microformat initiatives?

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

Aarron
From khare at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Jul 20 12:36:18 2007
From: khare at alumni.caltech.edu (Rohit Khare)
Date: Fri Jul 20 12:51:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled
	on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <53430.64.142.103.248.1184709081.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <53430.64.142.103.248.1184709081.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>

Well, it's been two days since this thread began, and I wanted to  
echo back what I've heard from the discussion. [Fair warning, I've  
been flying quite a bit, and will be for the next week, so I may fall  
a bit out-of-date...]

As soon as I first edited the wiki page to describe this strategy,  
Andy reached out to me to inquire how the public-domain release  
interacted with the original 2004 copyright statement. I don't have  
any firm ideas at this point; Tantek replied to this thread by taking  
the admirable step of clarifying that as much as possible for all of  
the pages that he could, individually removing the 2004 statement  
from pages he'd edited.

However, as Ernie noted, the wiki medium arguably calls for tracking  
the contributions of *all* the contributors who modify the pages,  
above and beyond the stated "authors" of a page/spec. We're hardly  
proposing any kind of automated checking at this point, but it's an  
interesting direction for the future.

Andy's initial public reaction did take me aback, though: while he  
may be correct the PD text currently states that "unless otherwise  
stated" (because that's what was copied from Wikipedia), the intent  
is different. Perhaps we should be discussing "unless otherwise  
prohibited," for example.

More generally,though, I think volunteering in this case makes for  
better game-theory than holding back until 'everyone else' commits to  
a more open strategy first. Taking the incremental step of marking  
your profile clearly states an individual's intent and also sets the  
stage for finding out whether there *is* community consensus that the  
public-domain approach is appropriate for microformats.org -- a first  
among even remotely-standards-like efforts to my knowledge.

Migrating to  a new, clearer copyright regime will not happen  
overnight and must be done clearly and cleanly -- but it begins, I  
submit, by offering to cooperate in the construction of a new regime.  
Please consider joining in by adding the release to you user profiles  
today...

Thanks,
   Rohit Khare
From msporny at digitalbazaar.com  Fri Jul 20 15:37:36 2007
From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny)
Date: Fri Jul 20 15:37:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled
	on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <53430.64.142.103.248.1184709081.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
	<B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <46A13930.40409@digitalbazaar.com>

Rohit Khare wrote:
> Migrating to  a new, clearer copyright regime will not happen overnight
> and must be done clearly and cleanly -- but it begins, I submit, by
> offering to cooperate in the construction of a new regime. Please
> consider joining in by adding the release to you user profiles today...

Rohit, thank you for taking the time to put this together. It is not
only a good start, but demonstrates that key individuals in the
Microformats community are not attempting to do anything nefarious or
shady with what the community produces (like what happened in the case
of XMCD/CDDB).

If you would like to see who has signed up for voluntary public domain
release of their contributions, here's the list:

http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license

We are currently trying to put the hAudio draft into the public domain.

>From a legal standpoint, we would need everybody that made contributions
to that document to not only place the public domain template onto their
user pages, but also explicitly release their past contributions as
public domain works (since they still hold the copyright on the material).

The wording of the current template isn't explicit about past
contributions. The statement could be interpreted as "all future
contributions" since most legal statements are not retroactive unless
explicitly stated.  Please consider adding "retroactively" or "all past,
present and future contributions" to the text. Here is the public domain
agreement with the added changes:

I agree to release my past, present and future text and image
contributions into the public domain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/public_domain). Please be aware that other
contributors might not do the same, so if you want to use pages with my
contributions under public domain terms, please check the other
contributors' user pages. If I do not desire to release my contributions
to the public domain, I will clearly note the copyright policy that
should be used with my contribution.

If this change is not made, we will have to perform the arduous task of
asking every author that contributed to a page to release their
copyright on that page. I have started this process with hAudio, where
we have asked every author of the draft page to release their edits into
the public domain:

http://microformats.org/wiki/audio-info-proposal#Public_Domain_Release

Thoughts and direction in converting old pages would be very welcome.

-- manu

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jul 20 16:35:05 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jul 20 16:36:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on
	the wiki
In-Reply-To: <B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <53430.64.142.103.248.1184709081.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
	<B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <6hL0h6ppaUoGFwn2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>,
Rohit Khare <khare@alumni.caltech.edu> writes

>As soon as I first edited the wiki page to describe this strategy,
>Andy reached out to me to inquire how the public-domain release
>interacted with the original 2004 copyright statement.

I didn't "inquire" about anything; I wrote to you (in the light of your
previous interdict on using this mailing list for such discussions) and
said (verbatim quote):

  I note your recent edits:

    <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Category:public_domain_license&curid=3627&diff=0&oldid=18440&rcid=29417>

  and:

    <http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Rohit&diff=0>

  While the "boilerplate" copyright notice:

    <http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004>

  remains in use on individual specs, I find those comments somewhat
  strange

>I don't have  any firm ideas at this point; Tantek replied to this
>thread by taking  the admirable step of clarifying that as much as
>possible for all of  the pages that he could, individually removing the
>2004 statement  from pages he'd edited.

I applaud him for doing so; but, at the time of writing, copyright in
both hCalendar and hCard is still claimed, in part, by "Technorati,
Inc.", by virtue of their being one of the three listed authors, and the
copyright statement that "This specification is (C) 2004-2007 by the
authors".

(Interestingly, Tantek says he's released the Geo and Adr specs into the
public domain, but Technorati are credited as either co-author or his
employer (the designation is not clear) - have they relinquished their
rights?)

hResume is still copyrighted to Ryan King.

Are AOL, Yahoo and Microsoft about to release their apparent rights over
hReview into the public domain?

I would also be very interested to know how the authors of rel-nofollow
justify their claim of copyright over a technique apparently conceived
by Google.

>Andy's initial public reaction did take me aback, though: while he  may
>be correct the PD text currently states that "unless otherwise  stated"
>(because that's what was copied from Wikipedia),

If such text was copied and used with out due consideration for its
meaning, that would be very unfortunate.

>the intent  is different.

Alleged intent, in such matters, is worth diddly squat; especially in
the light of the unambiguous statements to the contrary: copyright of
several specs (and thereby the underlying microformats) apparently rests
with a number of individuals and organisations, who have not, as yet,
either waived it or given free licence to use it.

>More generally,though, I think volunteering in this case makes for
>better game-theory than holding back until 'everyone else' commits to
>a more open strategy first.

Who has said that they will wait for "everyone else" to do so? What I
have said is that I will relinquish my rights, gladly, when the
individual extant microformats are available freely. I look forward to
that time.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jul 20 16:40:59 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jul 20 16:42:33 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on
	the wiki
In-Reply-To: <46A13930.40409@digitalbazaar.com>
References: <53430.64.142.103.248.1184709081.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
	<B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>
	<46A13930.40409@digitalbazaar.com>
Message-ID: <wBj2p4qLgUoGFwln@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <46A13930.40409@digitalbazaar.com>, Manu Sporny 
<msporny@digitalbazaar.com> writes

>The wording of the current template isn't explicit about past 
>contributions. The statement could be interpreted as "all future 
>contributions" since most legal statements are not retroactive unless 
>explicitly stated.

I doubt that any person trained in law would support that 
interpretation.

>  Please consider adding "retroactively" or "all past, present and 
>future contributions" to the text.

I think any attempt to change the terms of a statement whereby people 
have released some of their rights, after they have done so, to make it 
appear that they may have relinquished additional rights, would be 
regarded as highly suspect and of no legal standing,.

If you want to apply new - and especially more relaxed - terms, each 
individual will have to agree to them again.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com  Fri Jul 20 16:51:36 2007
From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar)
Date: Fri Jul 20 16:51:40 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled
	on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <wBj2p4qLgUoGFwln@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <53430.64.142.103.248.1184709081.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
	<B8AEDAE6-9962-4531-9D21-3A21ED4FCCAE@alumni.caltech.edu>
	<46A13930.40409@digitalbazaar.com>
	<wBj2p4qLgUoGFwln@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <395353FA-6723-4D22-97C8-41434B8C7409@gmail.com>

Hi Andy,

On Jul 20, 2007, at 4:40 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> Please consider adding "retroactively" or "all past, present and  
>> future contributions" to the text.
>
> I think any attempt to change the terms of a statement whereby  
> people have released some of their rights, after they have done so,  
> to make it appear that they may have relinquished additional rights,  
> would be regarded as highly suspect and of no legal standing,.
>
> If you want to apply new - and especially more relaxed - terms, each  
> individual will have to agree to them again.

You're right -- if it becomes a problem, we'd need to create a new  
version "{public-domain-2}" and ask people to "up" their commitment to  
that.  However, that's probably premature at this point. I do think  
everyone here is doing their best to act in good faith, so hopefully  
some of the corner cases will be sorted out through other means in the  
next week or so.

-- Ernie P.

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 20 17:31:32 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Fri Jul 20 17:31:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now
	enabled on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <6hL0h6ppaUoGFwn2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C2C6A18B.924CA%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 7/20/07 4:35 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> I applaud him for doing so; but, at the time of writing, copyright in
> both hCalendar and hCard is still claimed, in part, by "Technorati,
> Inc.", by virtue of their being one of the three listed authors,

Technorati is not listed as an author, but merely my (and a few others')
affiliation at the time of authoring the spec(s).

However, I can very much see how that could be misinterpreted so I have
edited the affiliation text of the specifications of which I am an
author/editor/contributor to be in the style used by W3C specifications:

 Author (Affiliation[s]), ...

> (Interestingly, Tantek says he's released the Geo and Adr specs into the
> public domain, but Technorati are credited as either co-author or his
> employer (the designation is not clear) - have they relinquished their
> rights?)

I have clarified the affiliation per the above stylistic edit, and yes, all
the work I have done on microformats when employed by Technorati was done
very much in and for the community and I have taken the extra step of
releasing my work into the public domain to be even more explicit.

I continue to encourage all microformats community members to release their
contributions to the Public Domain.  Doing so without waiting for any other
particular conditions demonstrates a strong commitment to contributing to
the public good and sets a good example for others as well.

Thanks,

Tantek

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jul 21 02:35:12 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jul 21 02:36:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled on
	the wiki
In-Reply-To: <C2C6A18B.924CA%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <6hL0h6ppaUoGFwn2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<C2C6A18B.924CA%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <5510HpsQNdoGFwXw@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C2C6A18B.924CA%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik 
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>On 7/20/07 4:35 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> I applaud him for doing so; but, at the time of writing, copyright in
>> both hCalendar and hCard is still claimed, in part, by "Technorati,
>> Inc.", by virtue of their being one of the three listed authors,
>
>Technorati is not listed as an author, but merely my (and a few 
>others') affiliation at the time of authoring the spec(s).
>
>However, I can very much see how that could be misinterpreted so I have 
>edited the affiliation text of the specifications of which I am an 
>author/editor/contributor to be in the style used by W3C specifications

Thank you for the clarification. I'm unclear as to why such an 
affiliation is relevant, if you were not acting on behalf of Technorati 
at the time of writing the spec (your connection to them is, after all, 
mentioned on your user page, should anyone be interested), but that's 
now incidental.

The hCalendar and hCard specs now each have two authors (you and Brain 
Suda), both of whom have kindly released your work into PD - so the 
statement that "Microformats copyright ... statements apply." and "This 
specification is (C) 2004-2007 by the author" are now either 
contradictory, or simply wrong. Please will you amend the spec to clear 
up that ambiguity, as you have done on Geo and Adr?

I take it that you're also aware that making such a spec PD means that 
there's no recourse, other than community disapprobation, if someone 
should republish it, with extra, removed, or changed properties?

>all the work I have done on microformats when employed by Technorati 
>was done very much in and for the community and I have taken the extra 
>step of releasing my work into the public domain to be even more 
>explicit.

Doing so is laudable and I look forward to seeing
the authors of other published microformats doing likewise.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com  Sat Jul 21 04:55:32 2007
From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes)
Date: Sat Jul 21 04:55:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: HTML5
Message-ID: <21e523c20707210455l46c6d16by6afe87252806f4c8@mail.gmail.com>

The w3c is discussing an HTML5 [1], which is not to be confused with
XHTML2 [2]. I'm not sure how serious or advanced this, but there's a
discussion on Slashdot [3] (stop rolling your eyes).

It's definitely more semantic in design, though I've only lightly
skimmed the doc. Note rel-tag [4], rel-bookmark [5] & the <article>
tag [6], and rel-nofollow [7]. It looks like (for example), a lot of
hAtom could be re-implemented using basic HTML5 tags and link-types.

Regards, etc.

[1] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/index.html#contents
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/
[3] http://tinyurl.com/354ycy
[4] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-links.html#link-type15
[5] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-links.html#link-type2
[6] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-sections.html#article
[7] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-links.html#link-type9

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Sat Jul 21 10:40:11 2007
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Sat Jul 21 10:40:16 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: HTML5
In-Reply-To: <21e523c20707210455l46c6d16by6afe87252806f4c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20707210455l46c6d16by6afe87252806f4c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0707211040r49326df6o2a9d5c07c00a690a@mail.gmail.com>

Hello David,

On 7/21/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> The w3c is discussing an HTML5 ...

One thing you may want to take note of is that the "rev" attrbute, on
the <a> element and the <link> element are gone.

"rel" is now being (ab)used to be more like an "hrefclass" now... to
match common usage of it (outside of the Microformats group of
course).


See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>


                 Vlog Razor... Vlogging News
                    http://vlograzor.com/
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jul 23 09:25:00 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jul 23 09:25:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] spam filter madness
Message-ID: <56171.80.86.36.97.1185207900.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>

Mis-configuration of the wiki's spam filter means that posts with the word
"specialist" are blocked, because that contains the name of the drug
"cialis".

 --
Andy Mabbett
** via webmail **

From me at sergiosantos.info  Mon Jul 23 15:55:09 2007
From: me at sergiosantos.info (me@sergiosantos.info)
Date: Mon Jul 23 15:55:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Best way to find book reviews
Message-ID: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>

I've been thinking about creating an aggregator of book reviews, based on
the hReview format. People just needed to drop their website link and it
would ping it regularly for new reviews. But since the microformat has a
field 'type' where the best description for a book e product, the parser
could also get several reviews non-related with books. On the hReview FAQ
it advises to use to book rel='tag' to specify more the type of the
review, this doesn't seem to be a common practice in the Examples in the
wild. So I ask you what would be the best way to find the book reviews.
Asking for everyone to put the book tag and probably losing hundreds of
reviews already out there without it? Run the title of the review against
the Amazon database?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.


S?rgio Santos
www.sergiosantos.info

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jul 23 16:38:21 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jul 23 16:39:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] The need for evidence of tagging (was: [hReview] Best
	way to find book reviews)
In-Reply-To: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
References: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
Message-ID: <Psbpi6BtvTpGFw5x@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>, 
me@sergiosantos.info writes

>On the hReview FAQ it advises to use to book rel='tag' to specify more 
>the type of the review, this doesn't seem to be a common practice in 
>the Examples in the wild.

Tagging is popular with bloggers; from casual observation, it seems to 
be less so with other publishers (one reason for this may be that it 
requires the target URLs to be of a certain format, which, if they are 
not to be external, may not suit the CMS in use).

Perhaps we should take more care, in future, to ensure that tags are 
only includes in microformat specs if the gathered evidence suggests 
that publishers are already using them?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jul 23 16:55:57 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jul 23 16:57:05 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] The need for evidence of tagging (was: [hReview]
	Best	way to find book reviews)
In-Reply-To: <Psbpi6BtvTpGFw5x@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
	<Psbpi6BtvTpGFw5x@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <ZrzcjcCNAUpGFwqB@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <Psbpi6BtvTpGFw5x@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett 
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes

>ensure that tags are only includes in microformat specs if

"...are only include/d/ in..."

Apologies

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From mdagn at spraci.com  Mon Jul 23 20:42:47 2007
From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD)
Date: Mon Jul 23 20:42:43 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Best way to find book reviews
References: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
Message-ID: <001d01c7cda4$b45330f0$116bacca@COMCEN>


> I've been thinking about creating an aggregator of book reviews, based on
> the hReview format. People just needed to drop their website link and it
> would ping it regularly for new reviews. But since the microformat has a
> field 'type' where the best description for a book e product, the parser
> could also get several reviews non-related with books. On the hReview FAQ
> it advises to use to book rel='tag' to specify more the type of the
> review, this doesn't seem to be a common practice in the Examples in the
> wild. So I ask you what would be the best way to find the book reviews.
> Asking for everyone to put the book tag and probably losing hundreds of
> reviews already out there without it?

I was thinking about doing something like this for music/record/cd reviews 
... but it would have the same problem!


From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Tue Jul 24 11:02:45 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Tue Jul 24 11:02:54 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Voluntary Public Domain declarations now
	enabled on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <5510HpsQNdoGFwXw@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C2CB8C6F.926CD%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 7/21/07 2:35 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <C2C6A18B.924CA%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
> <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes
> 
>> On 7/20/07 4:35 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> I applaud him for doing so; but, at the time of writing, copyright in
>>> both hCalendar and hCard is still claimed, in part, by "Technorati,
>>> Inc.", by virtue of their being one of the three listed authors,
>> 
>> Technorati is not listed as an author, but merely my (and a few
>> others') affiliation at the time of authoring the spec(s).
>> 
>> However, I can very much see how that could be misinterpreted so I have
>> edited the affiliation text of the specifications of which I am an
>> author/editor/contributor to be in the style used by W3C specifications
> 
> Thank you for the clarification. I'm unclear as to why such an
> affiliation is relevant,

Tradition. Indicating authors' affiliation(s) is a common practice among
standards organizations (e.g. W3C, IETF).


> if you were not acting on behalf of Technorati
> at the time of writing the spec (your connection to them is, after all,
> mentioned on your user page, should anyone be interested), but that's
> now incidental.

As I was employed by Technorati at the time, I was acting both in the
interests of microformats and Technorati.


> The hCalendar and hCard specs now each have two authors (you and Brain
> Suda), both of whom have kindly released your work into PD - so the
> statement that "Microformats copyright ... statements apply." and "This
> specification is (C) 2004-2007 by the author" are now either
> contradictory, or simply wrong. Please will you amend the spec to clear
> up that ambiguity, as you have done on Geo and Adr?

Thanks to Brian Suda for also explicitly releasing his contributions to
hCard and hCalendar to the public domain.

Certainly the MicroFormatCopyrightStatement appears confusing next to the
authors' public domain releases.

Accordingly, since all the authors of those specifications have released
their work explicitly to the public domain, I've removed the
MicroFormatCopyrightStatement and added a general statement of public domain
release and a MicroFormatPublicDomainContributionStatement as replacement
for the contributor agreements portion of the previous
MicroformatsCopyrightStatement.

I have also placed the MicroFormatPublicDomainContributionStatement on the
specs for which I am sole author/editor such as adr, geo, and rel-license
for the same reasons.


> I take it that you're also aware that making such a spec PD means that
> there's no recourse, other than community disapprobation, if someone
> should republish it, with extra, removed, or changed properties?

We are in fact making two statements with this increasing move towards
public domain microformats specs.

1) We believe the microformats community has garnered sufficient respect of
the broader web community and is strong enough to be stewards of the
microformats specs even with them being released to the public domain.  Yes
someone else could go fork/mutate our specs, but I expect that community
disapprobation (as you say) and pressure to pass the test cases and
interoperate with the compliant implementations will be sufficient.

2) Open standards for data formats should be in the public domain, owned by
no one, free to all to use and implement, across time and space.  We are the
first standards related organization or community to ever put any of their
specs in the public domain AFAIK.


>> all the work I have done on microformats when employed by Technorati
>> was done very much in and for the community and I have taken the extra
>> step of releasing my work into the public domain to be even more
>> explicit.
> 
> Doing so is laudable and I look forward to seeing
> the authors of other published microformats doing likewise.

Thanks Andy.

I look forward to seeing you release your contributions to the microformats
community to the public domain as well.

Thanks,

Tantek


From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 02:29:10 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 02:29:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Caution needed when giving rights by template (& bad
 technical advice given on wiki)
Message-ID: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>


Tantek has just reverted
<http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Category%3Apublic_domain_license&diff=0&oldid=18734>
a change I made to the 'wiki'; to the suggested method of including the
"Public Domain release" template. I had changed the recommended method of
suing the template from:

	{{public-domain-release}}
to:

	{{subst:public-domain-release}}

The "subst" parameter causes the text, current at the time of use, of the
template to be written permanently into the wiki-code source of the page
on which it appears, as opposed to calling it from the template every
time. This means that subsequent changes to the template do NOT appear on
the individual page concerned.

I made this edit in the light of Manu's well- intentioned, but misguided,
request that changes be made to the template:

<http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-July/010238.html>

I would STRONGLY advise anyone thinking of placing their contributions
into the public domain to "subst" the template (or use their own wording),
rather than calling template which may be changed in future, to a form of
wording with which they do not agree; and with no change being noted in
the "history" of their user page. To use the template without "subst" is
like signing a contract with a blank section for the other party to
complete at a later date.

Tantek's justification for the edit was that he was reverting to the form
of wording used by Wikipedia. As has become clear, Wikipedia and this
'wiki' are run on very different lines, with the former having far more
openness and accountability. Wikipedia uses "subst"  on other templates;
and anyone who chooses may "subst" thir PD template.


In the same edit, Tantek restored instructions, such as "use CTRL S to
save", which I'd removed, which are OS and browser specific, on the basis
that they help some people. All the usability guidance I've ever read on
the subject, cautions against giving such advice, which is akin to saying
"to get coffee, turn left, then second right, then the kitchen is first
left". This will help everyone in the office where I work, but probably
won't apply to many other people reading this.

-- 
Andy Mabbett


From conor at loudervoice.com  Wed Jul 25 07:30:12 2007
From: conor at loudervoice.com (Conor O'Neill)
Date: Wed Jul 25 07:30:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Best way to find book reviews
In-Reply-To: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
References: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
Message-ID: <46A75E74.5090809@argolon.com>

me@sergiosantos.info wrote:
> I've been thinking about creating an aggregator of book reviews, based on
> the hReview format. People just needed to drop their website link and it
> would ping it regularly for new reviews. But since the microformat has a
> field 'type' where the best description for a book e product, the parser
> could also get several reviews non-related with books. On the hReview FAQ
> it advises to use to book rel='tag' to specify more the type of the
> review, this doesn't seem to be a common practice in the Examples in the
> wild. So I ask you what would be the best way to find the book reviews.
> Asking for everyone to put the book tag and probably losing hundreds of
> reviews already out there without it? Run the title of the review against
> the Amazon database?
>
> Thanks in advance for any feedback.
>
>
> S?rgio Santos
> www.sergiosantos.info
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>   

Hi S?rgio,

Our site LouderVoice is a general hreview aggregator and we took the 
basic approach of using tags. We have both search 
(http://www.loudervoice.com/search?q=book) and tags 
(http://www.loudervoice.com/tags/book), but even there you can see a big 
disparity between the search count and the tag count, so I understand 
your concerns. Have you looked at that Amazon->hreview tool? I can't 
find the URL right now.

Conor

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jul 25 12:40:15 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jul 25 12:40:22 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Discussion of public domain declaration template usage
In-Reply-To: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
Message-ID: <C2CCF51F.927A7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 7/25/07 2:29 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> I made this edit in the light of Manu's well- intentioned, but misguided,
> request that changes be made to the template:
> 
> <http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-July/010238.ht
> ml>

To be clear, such changes are NOT going to be made to the template.

Here's why:

The text of the template was taken from Wikipedia, deliberately, as-is in
order to be clearly consistent with the Public Domain Declaration there.
That's the safest thing to do for a number of reasons (consistency, not
introducing unintended changes etc.).

We are essentially saying we believe that Wikipedia has done the right thing
with respect to their public domain declaration and are joining that in that
respect.

Anybody wanting to change that should take it up upstream as it were, take
the debate to the Wikipedia's public domain declaration.  We don't want the
debate about public domain wording here.  Any further issue with that can be
taken up with Rohit per the instructions on his user page.


> I would STRONGLY advise anyone thinking of placing their contributions
> into the public domain to "subst" the template (or use their own wording),

This is NOT the method of inclusion of the template used by Wikipedia, and
thus it is NOT recommended on that basis.

This is also a REALLY BAD IDEA due to the fact that if any subtle changes of
wording of public domain declaration occur across people's user pages, then
it becomes much harder to determine if they are consistent or not to place
pages which people have jointly edited into the public domain.

It is best for the community for everyone to use *one* public domain
declaration, period.  And if that declaration needs to be corrected due to a
typo etc., it is better that *everyone* get those fixes and stay consistent.

Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have now added
additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in particular is
consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all other public
domain contributors.

I'd like you to please reconsider and use the direct template inclusion form
on your user page for the good of community.


> rather than calling template which may be changed in future, to a form of
> wording with which they do not agree;

See the above.  Such changes, of *any form* from what the text said in
Wikipedia is undesirable for any reason, whether everyone agrees or not.

In addition, you can bet that if anyone *does* change it, there will be
sufficient people watching to raise red flags and point that out.

The *only* type of wording changes I can see occurring are if Wikipedia
changes *their* public domain declaration wording, it is likely that we may
and will follow suit, to stay in sync and consistent as it were.


> Tantek's justification for the edit was that he was reverting to the form
> of wording used by Wikipedia. As has become clear, Wikipedia and this
> 'wiki' are run on very different lines, with the former having far more
> openness and accountability. Wikipedia uses "subst"  on other templates;
> and anyone who chooses may "subst" thir PD template.

Wikipedia uses the direct template inclusion on the Public Domain
Declaration {{ }} and thus we will recommend that as well.  We're not using
other templates from Wikipedia at this point so what they do on other
templates is irrelevant.

Tantek

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jul 25 12:42:15 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jul 25 12:42:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
Message-ID: <C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 7/25/07 2:29 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In the same edit, Tantek restored instructions, such as "use CTRL S to
> save", which I'd removed, which are OS and browser specific, on the basis
> that they help some people.

Actually, ctrl-s/alt-s help *the vast majority of people* who use Windows or
Mac for that matter, as the modern browsers on those systems all support the
respective ACCESSKEYs, as do most browsers on linux systems as well.  90+%
easily in terms of total marketshare etc.

If you'd like to suggest improvements for how to word these efficiency
enhancing shortcut tips, it would be great to hear them, but summarily
removing them when clearly they were intended to help was a bit rude.


> All the usability guidance I've ever read on
> the subject, cautions against giving such advice, which is akin to saying
> "to get coffee, turn left, then second right, then the kitchen is first
> left". This will help everyone in the office where I work, but probably
> won't apply to many other people reading this.

The analogy is false as the coffee directions apply to perhaps <1% of the
people on this list, but the Mediawiki accesskey shortcuts apply to >99% of
the people on this list.

Tantek

From me at sergiosantos.info  Wed Jul 25 13:22:21 2007
From: me at sergiosantos.info (me@sergiosantos.info)
Date: Wed Jul 25 13:22:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Best way to find book reviews
In-Reply-To: <46A75E74.5090809@argolon.com>
References: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
	<46A75E74.5090809@argolon.com>
Message-ID: <51307.87.196.80.36.1185394941.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>

> me@sergiosantos.info wrote:
>> I've been thinking about creating an aggregator of book reviews, based
>> on
>> the hReview format. People just needed to drop their website link and it
>> would ping it regularly for new reviews. But since the microformat has a
>> field 'type' where the best description for a book e product, the parser
>> could also get several reviews non-related with books. On the hReview
>> FAQ
>> it advises to use to book rel='tag' to specify more the type of the
>> review, this doesn't seem to be a common practice in the Examples in the
>> wild. So I ask you what would be the best way to find the book reviews.
>> Asking for everyone to put the book tag and probably losing hundreds of
>> reviews already out there without it? Run the title of the review
>> against
>> the Amazon database?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any feedback.
>>
>>
>> S?rgio Santos
>> www.sergiosantos.info
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
> Hi S?rgio,
>
> Our site LouderVoice is a general hreview aggregator and we took the
> basic approach of using tags. We have both search
> (http://www.loudervoice.com/search?q=book) and tags
> (http://www.loudervoice.com/tags/book), but even there you can see a big
> disparity between the search count and the tag count, so I understand
> your concerns. Have you looked at that Amazon->hreview tool? I can't
> find the URL right now.
>
> Conor
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

Just found the tool you mentioned:
http://www.microform.at/amazon2hreview/. Nice one.

It's a good idea to use the Amazon reviews, it's one of the biggest
reviews database. But I would prefer to not use a centralized resource, an
agregate directly from blogs and other personal websites. Just like the
good platform you have on LouderVoice.

S?rgio Santos
www.sergiosantos.info

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 15:36:37 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 15:38:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik 
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>On 7/25/07 2:29 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In the same edit, Tantek restored instructions, such as "use CTRL S to
>> save", which I'd removed, which are OS and browser specific, on the basis
>> that they help some people.
>
>Actually, ctrl-s/alt-s help *the vast majority of people* who use 
>Windows or Mac for that matter, as the modern browsers on those systems 
>all support the respective ACCESSKEYs, as do most browsers on linux 
>systems as well.  90+% easily in terms of total marketshare etc.

<http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=477>

>If you'd like to suggest improvements for how to word these efficiency 
>enhancing shortcut tips, it would be great to hear them, but summarily 
>removing them when clearly they were intended to help was a bit rude.

You're in no position to lecture me or anyone else on manners.

I do sometimes wonder why you bothered to install wiki software.

And I don't have time to list all the edits, clearly intended to help, 
which you have summarily reverted.

>> All the usability guidance I've ever read on
>> the subject, cautions against giving such advice, which is akin to saying
>> "to get coffee, turn left, then second right, then the kitchen is first
>> left". This will help everyone in the office where I work, but probably
>> won't apply to many other people reading this.
>
>The analogy is false as the coffee directions apply to perhaps <1% of 
>the people on this list, but the Mediawiki accesskey shortcuts apply to 
>>99% of the people on this list.

I think you've just invented that statistic. Care to prove me wrong?

-- 
Andy Mabbett

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 15:38:11 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 15:39:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Best way to find book reviews
In-Reply-To: <51307.87.196.80.36.1185394941.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
References: <2802.82.154.42.56.1185231309.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
	<46A75E74.5090809@argolon.com>
	<51307.87.196.80.36.1185394941.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>
Message-ID: <Fi0LRhDTD9pGFwZi@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<51307.87.196.80.36.1185394941.squirrel@webmail.sergiosantos.info>, 
me@sergiosantos.info writes

>Just found the tool you mentioned:
>http://www.microform.at/amazon2hreview/. Nice one.

Invalid hCards in the first example I tried:

   <http://www.microform.at/amazon2hreview/?operation=ItemLookup&asin=B000BTC5LW>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jul 25 15:52:10 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Wed Jul 25 15:52:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>

From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes
>>The analogy is false as the coffee directions apply to perhaps <1% of the 
>>people on this list, but the Mediawiki accesskey shortcuts apply to
>>>99% of the people on this list.
>
> I think you've just invented that statistic. Care to prove me wrong?

In the interest of public spirit, I use ctrl-s to save.

Perhaps this would be resolved more quickly if we get a hands-up of people, 
on this list, who aren't able to use ctrl-s to save.

-- 
Paul Wilkins 

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 16:17:25 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 16:19:09 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>, Paul Wilkins 
<paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes

>From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>> Tantek ?elik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes
>>>The analogy is false as the coffee directions apply to perhaps <1% of 
>>>the people on this list, but the Mediawiki accesskey shortcuts apply 
>>>
>>>>99% of the people on this list.
>>
>> I think you've just invented that statistic. Care to prove me wrong?
>
>In the interest of public spirit, I use ctrl-s to save.
>
>Perhaps this would be resolved more quickly if we get a hands-up of 
>people, on this list, who aren't able to use ctrl-s to save.

CTRL-S on my machine. *when editing a wiki page*, causes my browser to 
open a dialogue to save a local copy of the editing form.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 16:21:20 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 16:22:29 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Discussion of public domain declaration template
	usage
In-Reply-To: <C2CCF51F.927A7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF51F.927A7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <sTsRdnHwr9pGFwfF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <C2CCF51F.927A7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik 
<tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes

>On 7/25/07 2:29 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> I made this edit in the light of Manu's well- intentioned, but misguided,
>> request that changes be made to the template:
>>
>> 
>><http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-July/01
>>0238.ht
>> ml>
>
>To be clear, such changes are NOT going to be made to the template.

I'm not prepared to take your word for that; not least because you might 
not be here at some point in the intermediate future.

>Here's why:
>
>The text of the template was taken from Wikipedia, deliberately, as-is in
>order to be clearly consistent with the Public Domain Declaration there.
>That's the safest thing to do for a number of reasons (consistency, not
>introducing unintended changes etc.).

Copying a template from Wikipedia is no guarantee that it won't change. 
The wording on the Wikipedia template could be - and has been - changed 
at any point. Any changes which are made, will be subject to community 
consensus and debate - unlike changes made to the microformats wiki. 
There are no "editors", with additional rights over other users, on 
Wikipedia.

Not only that, but if you read Wikipedia's copyright statements, I think 
you'll find that you have no right to put a page containing a template, 
lifted wholesale from Wikipedia, into the public domain; you'd be 
breaching the copyright belong to the original author(s) if you didn't 
attach a GDFL licence.

>We are essentially saying we believe that Wikipedia has done the right thing
>with respect to their public domain declaration and are joining that in that
>respect.

Legally, that's meaningless.

>Anybody wanting to change that should take it up upstream as it were, take
>the debate to the Wikipedia's public domain declaration.

That would have no bearing on rights over material on this 'wiki'.

> We don't want the
>debate about public domain wording here.  Any further issue with that can be
>taken up with Rohit per the instructions on his user page.

That experiment with open governance was short-lived; it's just five 
days since Rohit opened discussion on the matter, on this list.

>> I would STRONGLY advise anyone thinking of placing their contributions
>> into the public domain to "subst" the template (or use their own wording),
>
>This is NOT the method of inclusion of the template used by Wikipedia, and
>thus it is NOT recommended on that basis.

As I have already pointed out, anyone who chooses to do so may "subst" 
the template onto their user page, rather than transcluding it.

>This is also a REALLY BAD IDEA due to the fact that if any subtle changes of
>wording of public domain declaration occur across people's user pages, then
>it becomes much harder to determine if they are consistent or not to place
>pages which people have jointly edited into the public domain.

So changes might be made to the template, after all?

>It is best for the community for everyone to use *one* public domain
>declaration, period.

That assertion is completely without foundation or justification.

>  And if that declaration needs to be corrected due to a
>typo etc., it is better that *everyone* get those fixes and stay consistent.

Typos, or changes to them, can have significant consequences in legal 
documents.

>Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have now added
>additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in particular is
>consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all other public
>domain contributors.

Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit.

>I'd like you to please reconsider and use the direct template inclusion form
>on your user page for the good of community.

No, I'm not writing you or anyone else a blank cheque.

>> rather than calling template which may be changed in future, to a form of
>> wording with which they do not agree;
>
>See the above.  Such changes, of *any form* from what the text said in
>Wikipedia is undesirable for any reason, whether everyone agrees or not.

If *any form* of change is undesirable, then hard-coding the text onto 
individual user pages should present no problem.

>In addition, you can bet that if anyone *does* change it, there will be
>sufficient people watching to raise red flags and point that out.

"Bet" being the operative word - I don't gamble with my legal rights.

>The *only* type of wording changes I can see occurring are if Wikipedia
>changes *their* public domain declaration wording, it is likely that we may
>and will follow suit, to stay in sync and consistent as it were.

"if ... likely" doesn't carry much legal weight.

>> Tantek's justification for the edit was that he was reverting to the form
>> of wording used by Wikipedia. As has become clear, Wikipedia and this
>> 'wiki' are run on very different lines, with the former having far more
>> openness and accountability. Wikipedia uses "subst"  on other templates;
>> and anyone who chooses may "subst" thir PD template.
>
>Wikipedia uses the direct template inclusion on the Public Domain
>Declaration {{ }} and thus we will recommend that as well.  We're not using
>other templates from Wikipedia at this point so what they do on other
>templates is irrelevant.

What they do with *this* template is to allow *either* transclusion or 
SUBSTitiution. They also have other, alternative PD templates.


You may wish to again dismiss my concerns, out of hand, as mere 
argumentativeness, but if they're not addressed now, they will be back 
to bite the community later.

-- 
Andy Mabbett

From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jul 25 16:23:47 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jul 25 16:24:01 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <CC177A5C-08EA-4092-B311-4D09559B492D@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 25, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote:

>> I think you've just invented that statistic. Care to prove me wrong?
>
> In the interest of public spirit, I use ctrl-s to save.

As do I, since I discovered on the page in question that it was an  
option.  But it seems we're just debating for the sake of debate  
here.  Mediawiki uses accesskey.  And microformats.org uses  
Mediawiki.  Deleting references to that fact does not make it any  
less true.  Nor do any statistics, bug reports, nor anything else  
short of rewriting or replacing Mediawiki.  I don't believe anyone  
here intends to do that, so I don't see any point of discussing this  
beyond personal axe grinding, which I'd ask be taken off-list.

Peace,
Scott
From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jul 25 16:42:58 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Wed Jul 25 16:43:02 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu><NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk><005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <007401c7cf15$8872db80$bc08a8c0@nzto22>

From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> CTRL-S on my machine. *when editing a wiki page*, causes my browser to 
> open a dialogue to save a local copy of the editing form.

When editing a wiki page you're right. The Accesskey is ctrl on IE5/Mac and 
it's variations of the alt key on most other browsers. The exceptions to 
this tend to be Firefox 2 with alt-shift, Opera with shift-esc, and ancient 
browsers that don't support Accesskeys.

Getting back to where this all started, the instruction in question is "use 
CTRL S to save"
That's only valid if the browser is something like IE5/Mac

It could be a lot better if it said
"Accesskeys differ according to your browser." which links off to a page 
that explains about Accesskeys, followed by "use ACCESSKEY S to save"

-- 
Paul Wilkins 

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 17:14:57 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 17:16:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <007401c7cf15$8872db80$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<007401c7cf15$8872db80$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <0DgXZQJBe+pGFwNu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <007401c7cf15$8872db80$bc08a8c0@nzto22>, Paul Wilkins 
<paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes

>From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>> CTRL-S on my machine. *when editing a wiki page*, causes my browser 
>>to  open a dialogue to save a local copy of the editing form.
>
>When editing a wiki page you're right. The Accesskey is ctrl on IE5/Mac 
>and it's variations of the alt key on most other browsers. The 
>exceptions to this tend to be Firefox 2 with alt-shift, Opera with 
>shift-esc, and ancient browsers that don't support Accesskeys.
>
>Getting back to where this all started, the instruction in question is 
>"use CTRL S to save"
>That's only valid if the browser is something like IE5/Mac
>
>It could be a lot better if it said
>"Accesskeys differ according to your browser." which links off to a 
>page that explains about Accesskeys, followed by "use ACCESSKEY S to 
>save"

It would be better still to say nothing. We don't say "move your mouse 
pointer here and press the button to go to the page about..."

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 17:17:55 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 17:19:02 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <CC177A5C-08EA-4092-B311-4D09559B492D@randomchaos.com>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<CC177A5C-08EA-4092-B311-4D09559B492D@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <EjsbRrJzg+pGFwJv@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <CC177A5C-08EA-4092-B311-4D09559B492D@randomchaos.com>, Scott 
Reynen <scott@randomchaos.com> writes

>On Jul 25, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote:
>
>>> I think you've just invented that statistic. Care to prove me wrong?
>>
>> In the interest of public spirit, I use ctrl-s to save.
>
>As do I, since I discovered on the page in question that it was an 
>option.  But it seems we're just debating for the sake of debate  here.

Not me; I'm discussing what works, and what does not.

>Mediawiki uses accesskey.  And microformats.org uses  Mediawiki. 
>Deleting references to that fact does not make it any  less true.

And including references does not make them work.

>I don't see any point of discussing this  beyond personal axe grinding, 
>which I'd ask be taken off-list.

It's not "personal axe grinding" just because you don't see the problem.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From scott at randomchaos.com  Wed Jul 25 17:26:29 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Wed Jul 25 17:26:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Discussion of public domain declaration template
	usage
In-Reply-To: <sTsRdnHwr9pGFwfF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF51F.927A7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<sTsRdnHwr9pGFwfF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <07607E05-C6CD-49CB-ACE2-78D287069792@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 25, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> There are no "editors", with additional rights over other users, on  
> Wikipedia.

I'm having trouble reconciling that statement with what appears to be  
your Wikipedia page claiming the exact opposite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pigsonthewing

"My name is Andy Mabbett, and this user-page is censored by other  
editors."

I don't know enough about law to know if there really are any  
significant legal concerns in this thread.  But I know enough about  
communication to know that if there are, this thread is a terrible  
way to present them, all but guaranteeing they won't be addressed.   
More flies with honey...

Peace,
Scott

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Wed Jul 25 17:35:45 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Wed Jul 25 17:37:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Discussion of public domain declaration
	template	usage
In-Reply-To: <07607E05-C6CD-49CB-ACE2-78D287069792@randomchaos.com>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF51F.927A7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<sTsRdnHwr9pGFwfF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<07607E05-C6CD-49CB-ACE2-78D287069792@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <hD4SZ6Khx+pGFwvn@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <07607E05-C6CD-49CB-ACE2-78D287069792@randomchaos.com>, Scott 
Reynen <scott@randomchaos.com> writes

>On Jul 25, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
>> There are no "editors", with additional rights over other users, on 
>>Wikipedia.
>
>I'm having trouble reconciling that statement with what appears to be 
>your Wikipedia page claiming the exact opposite:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pigsonthewing
>
>"My name is Andy Mabbett, and this user-page is censored by other 
>editors."

How unfortunate for you.

The example you cite proves my point, rather than being opposite to it.

>I don't know enough about law to know if there really are any 
>significant legal concerns in this thread.  But I know enough about 
>communication to know that if there are, this thread is a terrible  way 
>to present them, all but guaranteeing they won't be addressed.   More 
>flies with honey...

Who wants flies..?

If you want to trade cliches, try: "Don't shoot the messenger..."

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jul 25 17:47:09 2007
From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins)
Date: Wed Jul 25 17:47:13 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu><NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk><005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22><7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk><007401c7cf15$8872db80$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<0DgXZQJBe+pGFwNu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <008e01c7cf1e$7f992560$bc08a8c0@nzto22>

From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> Paul Wilkins <paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes
>>It could be a lot better if it said
>>"Accesskeys differ according to your browser." which links off to a page 
>>that explains about Accesskeys, followed by "use ACCESSKEY S to save"
>
> It would be better still to say nothing. We don't say "move your mouse 
> pointer here and press the button to go to the page about..."

When I'm tutoring people who are new to the mouse I do.
Because access keys are a new concept to some people, such instructions are 
required somewhere. If nothing is said about them, then nobody will use 
accesskeys.

There is some very good information around on how to display the access key 
assignments.
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/accesskey.html

-- 
Paul Wilkins 

From tantek at cs.stanford.edu  Wed Jul 25 17:52:02 2007
From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik)
Date: Wed Jul 25 17:52:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Discussion of public domain declaration template
	usage
In-Reply-To: <sTsRdnHwr9pGFwfF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C2CD3DFF.927E6%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>

On 7/25/07 4:21 PM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

> In message <C2CCF51F.927A7%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, Tantek ?elik
> <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> writes
> 
>> On 7/25/07 2:29 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> I made this edit in the light of Manu's well- intentioned, but misguided,
>>> request that changes be made to the template:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> <http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-July/01
>>> 0238.ht
>>> ml>
>> 
>> To be clear, such changes are NOT going to be made to the template.
> 
> I'm not prepared to take your word for that; not least because you might
> not be here at some point in the intermediate future.

Then you may take it as a word from the admins who will carry on even if I
am not here.


>> Here's why:
>> 
>> The text of the template was taken from Wikipedia, deliberately, as-is in
>> order to be clearly consistent with the Public Domain Declaration there.
>> That's the safest thing to do for a number of reasons (consistency, not
>> introducing unintended changes etc.).
> 
> Copying a template from Wikipedia is no guarantee that it won't change.
> The wording on the Wikipedia template could be - and has been - changed
> at any point.

Given history, it is unlikely, yet the possibility of Wikipedia changing it
was addressed further in my message.


> Not only that, but if you read Wikipedia's copyright statements, I think
> you'll find that you have no right to put a page containing a template,
> lifted wholesale from Wikipedia, into the public domain; you'd be
> breaching the copyright belong to the original author(s) if you didn't
> attach a GDFL licence.

Except in the case of the Public Domain Declaration itself which does both
refer to and cover itself and therefore put itself in the public domain.
Rohit and I looked quite closely at this.


>> We are essentially saying we believe that Wikipedia has done the right thing
>> with respect to their public domain declaration and are joining that in that
>> respect.
> 
> Legally, that's meaningless.

AFAIK, you are not a lawyer, therefore, with all due respect, your use of
the "Legally, ..." qualifier does not add any semantics.

As far as whether the public domain declaration is meaningless, I, Rohit,
and everyone else who has included the public domain template clearly do not
think it is meaningless.  If you do think that's meaningless, that's your
opinion.  We'll just have to choose to disagree.


>> Anybody wanting to change that should take it up upstream as it were, take
>> the debate to the Wikipedia's public domain declaration.
> 
> That would have no bearing on rights over material on this 'wiki'.

As admins we're saying we have no need to reinvent the public domain
declaration language on Wikipedia that *numerous* Wikipedia users/authors
have already signed up for, and that such debates should occur there, not
here.  As you seem to prefer the discussion forums on Wikipedia, I would
think you would find this preferable as well.



>> We don't want the
>> debate about public domain wording here.  Any further issue with that can be
>> taken up with Rohit per the instructions on his user page.
> 
> That experiment with open governance was short-lived; it's just five
> days since Rohit opened discussion on the matter, on this list.

Rohit opened discussion with the usage yes.  Nitpicking the wording, which
came from Wikipedia, is inappropriate for this forum.  If you want to
discuss Wikipedia's public domain declaration wording, do so in the proper
forums there.


>> This is also a REALLY BAD IDEA due to the fact that if any subtle changes of
>> wording of public domain declaration occur across people's user pages, then
>> it becomes much harder to determine if they are consistent or not to place
>> pages which people have jointly edited into the public domain.
> 
> So changes might be made to the template, after all?

See above about typos, etc. and updates from Wikipedia.  Just this morning I
made a non-wording markup-only change just to remove a few invalid
attributes but which did not change the wording.  That sort of thing.


>> It is best for the community for everyone to use *one* public domain
>> declaration, period.
> 
> That assertion is completely without foundation or justification.

Actually your assertion that "That assertion is completely without
foundation or justification." is itself without foundation or justification,
as you don't and can't know from what foundation or justification I could be
speaking.

If you don't know the foundation or justification for someone's statement,
don't assume it doesn't exist, rather, ask for it, e.g.

"What is the foundation or justification for that assertion?"

in this particular case, I am basing the assertion on attending a Creative
Commons meetup on November 3rd, 2005 and listening to Lawrence Lessig [1]
(who is a lawyer) discuss the problems of "open content" on the web using
the many different and often only slightly incompatible licenses, including
but not limited to GFDL, Creative Commons etc., and that he himself is
working on a license interoperability initiative [2] to address this
problem.  

Using a *single* public domain declaration avoids all those *known* problems
with *different* (even slightly differing) licenses.  If you don't want to
take my word for it, feel free to talk to other folks present at Lawrence
Lessig's talk such as Jimmy Wales of Wikipedia [3], or Rohit Khare [4].

[1] http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/85610373/
[2] http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/85610373/
[3] http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/85608932/
[4] http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/85610370/


>>> rather than calling template which may be changed in future, to a form of
>>> wording with which they do not agree;
>> 
>> See the above.  Such changes, of *any form* from what the text said in
>> Wikipedia is undesirable for any reason, whether everyone agrees or not.
> 
> If *any form* of change is undesirable, then hard-coding the text onto
> individual user pages should present no problem.

Not true.  Per DRY[5], one of our microformats principles Related Principles
we re-use from other design paradigms[6], copying information into multiple
locations "leads to opportunities for inconsistency" which is the exact
problem we are trying to avoid.

[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don?t_repeat_yourself
[6] http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles


>>> Tantek's justification for the edit was that he was reverting to the form
>>> of wording used by Wikipedia. As has become clear, Wikipedia and this
>>> 'wiki' are run on very different lines, with the former having far more
>>> openness and accountability. Wikipedia uses "subst"  on other templates;
>>> and anyone who chooses may "subst" thir PD template.
>> 
>> Wikipedia uses the direct template inclusion on the Public Domain
>> Declaration {{ }} and thus we will recommend that as well.  We're not using
>> other templates from Wikipedia at this point so what they do on other
>> templates is irrelevant.
> 
> What they do with *this* template is to allow *either* transclusion or
> SUBSTitiution. They also have other, alternative PD templates.

See above for why it is preferred to have a single public domain declaration
template.  The examples I have seen on Wikipedia, e.g. as Rohit cited on the
Category page itself[7], all used transclusion with this template.  If you
know of other Wikipedia instructions for use of the PD template on
Wikipedia, please cite them.

[7] http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license


> You may wish to again dismiss my concerns, out of hand, as mere
> argumentativeness, but if they're not addressed now, they will be back
> to bite the community later.

I do believe the majority of your concerns stated above to be without merit,
yet I have tried to address them in the hopes that they are not simply
reiterated and thus create noise on the mailing list.

A few of your points were mere argumentativeness yes, or other logical
flaws, which I've taken the time to document[8] as well in the hopes that
future instances of such logical flaws can be avoided[9], and when they
occur, be refuted by anyone in the community by citing the respective
logical flaw [10].

[8] http://microformats.org/wiki/logical-flaws
[9] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Avoid_logical_flaws
[10] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Point_out_logical_flaws

As it did feel to me like the majority of your message was argumentative
and/or consisted of logical flaws, I am going to lower the priority of
replying to any responses you make to this message.

Tantek


From msporny at digitalbazaar.com  Wed Jul 25 18:45:46 2007
From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny)
Date: Wed Jul 25 18:45:50 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <008e01c7cf1e$7f992560$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu><NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk><005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22><7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk><007401c7cf15$8872db80$bc08a8c0@nzto22>	<0DgXZQJBe+pGFwNu@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<008e01c7cf1e$7f992560$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <46A7FCCA.8070204@digitalbazaar.com>

Paul Wilkins wrote:
> From: "Andy Mabbett" <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>> Paul Wilkins <paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz> writes
>>> It could be a lot better if it said
>>> "Accesskeys differ according to your browser." which links off to a
>>> page that explains about Accesskeys, followed by "use ACCESSKEY S to
>>> save"
>>
>> It would be better still to say nothing. We don't say "move your mouse
>> pointer here and press the button to go to the page about..."

Can we please kill this thread? It's a humble request.

The signal to noise at this point is horrible. I don't think anybody on
here joined the list to discuss access key issues on our wiki.

Please discuss it among yourselves off-list if you must. Again - just a
humble request to stop spamming the list with access key issues.

-- manu

From karl at w3.org  Wed Jul 25 19:38:27 2007
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Wed Jul 25 19:38:35 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: HTML5
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0707211040r49326df6o2a9d5c07c00a690a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <21e523c20707210455l46c6d16by6afe87252806f4c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0707211040r49326df6o2a9d5c07c00a690a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1B4FFC6E-BF80-4656-A0FF-49AFD4960DDD@w3.org>

(with my hat of HTML WG W3C staff contact)
Sorry for the quite off-topic, just a clarification, before the idea  
is going further.


Le 22 juil. 2007 ? 02:40, Charles Iliya Krempeaux a ?crit :
> On 7/21/07, David Janes <davidjanes@blogmatrix.com> wrote:
>> The w3c is discussing an HTML5 ...
>
> One thing you may want to take note of is that the "rev" attrbute, on
> the <a> element and the <link> element are gone.

*nothing* is gone. The document is an editor's draft.

Ian Hickson does a good job at going through all feedback emails,  
issue trackers of browsers, etc. He's dealing right now with emails  
from 2005/2006.

You might want to look at the differences
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/

	"HTML 5 defines the fifth major revision
	of the core language of the World Wide Web,
	HTML. "HTML 5 differences from HTML 4"
	describes the differences between HTML 4 and
	HTML 5 and provides some of the rationale for
	the changes. This document may not provide
	accurate information as the HTML 5 specification
	is still in development. When in doubt, always
	check the HTML 5 specification itself. [HTML5]

The work being done for documenting the rationale behind each  
features is given at
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/

If you want to participate, Ian Hickson gave guidance on how to raise  
issues.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0003

A feature which is not in HTML 5 editor's draft has not necessary  
been dropped. It might just lack of research and documentation to  
make an informed choice.

-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




From denis.defreyne at stoneship.org  Thu Jul 26 12:15:14 2007
From: denis.defreyne at stoneship.org (Denis Defreyne)
Date: Thu Jul 26 12:15:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom + Sparkle
Message-ID: <ae19bb260707261215y4a4ae239n9620eed29e88e7d9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello list,

I have a Downloads page, which I would like to mark up in such a way that
Sparkle (<http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org/>), an application update
framework, can use the HTML page (as well as an RSS feed) to determine
whether there are application updates, present the version history, and
download the update as well as install it.

I have a few ideas already, but I'd love to get some feedback so I can make
this better.

Sparkle currently relies on an RSS feed with a few extra attributes for
version checking. This results in content duplication, though: both the RSS
feed and the downloads page contain very similar data. Only maintaining the
HTML page would mean less work, and less chance of syncing errors between
the feed and the page.

As for the way the HTML page would be structured??? this is more or less what
I have in mind: I'd use hAtom to mark up the page. Every application version
would be in its own hentry, with a rel-enclosure link to the actual
download, and the version history in the entry-content.

Sparkle can use some extra metadata, though: MD5 sums, DSA signatures, and
the application version (the latter is mandatory). The application version
could be marked up using a sparkle-version class, perhaps, but the MD5 sum
is a bit harder: I'd need something bigger than just rel-enclosure.

Here's a quick example of what this could look like:

	<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
	<html>
		<head>
			<title>Appcast</title>
		</head>
		<body>
			<h1>Appcast</h1>
			<div class="hentry">
				<h2 class="entry-title">Adium <span
class="sparkle-version">1.0.4</span></h2>
				<p>Updated on <abbr class="updated"
title="2007-06-20T18:00+01:00">24 June</abbr>.</p>
				<div class="entry-content">
					<ul>
						<li>Fixed a crash introduced in 1.0.3 which could occur when
accounts disconnected or status changed</li>
						<li>Fixed group chat when message history is enabled</li>
					</ul>
				</div>
				<p><a href="http://adiumx.cachefly.net/Adium_1.0.4.dmg"
rel="enclosure">Download</a>. MD5 sum: <span
class="sparkle-md5sum">0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f08</span>.</p>
			</div>
		</body>
	</html>

In this example, I've chose to make the sparkle-md5sum property part of the
hentry, which would mean that one hentry can unfortunately have only one
md5sum and thus one download, and I'm not happy about that.

(I've also left out the author in the example above, mostly because it makes
the example a bit easier to read.)

I've been working on a patch for Sparkle which adds very basic support for
hAtom, and it's looking good. Before I continue, I'd love to get some
feedbacks on the ideas outlined above.

Regards,

Denis

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 17:54:09 2007
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Thu Jul 26 17:54:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom + Sparkle
Message-ID: <70D9EC0C-69EA-4FC4-B843-C24EBEB49E32@gmail.com>

Ooo! I've wanted to see this happen for a long time! hAtom + Sparkle  
is a *fantastic* application of Microformats. I agree that hatom is  
the way forward but also think that hAppcast would be a good idea to  
explore.

I've created the following page to kick things off:

http://microformats.org/wiki/ appcast-brainstorming

Looking forward to your contributions. I'll add more when I'm on a  
real computer.

Chris

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 26, 2007, at 12:15 PM, "Denis Defreyne" <denis.defreyne@stoneship.org 
 > wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> I have a Downloads page, which I would like to mark up in such a way  
> that
> Sparkle (<http://sparkle.andymatuschak.org/>), an application update
> framework, can use the HTML page (as well as an RSS feed) to determine
> whether there are application updates, present the version history,  
> and
> download the update as well as install it.
>
> I have a few ideas already, but I'd love to get some feedback so I  
> can make
> this better.
>
> Sparkle currently relies on an RSS feed with a few extra attributes  
> for
> version checking. This results in content duplication, though: both  
> the RSS
> feed and the downloads page contain very similar data. Only  
> maintaining the
> HTML page would mean less work, and less chance of syncing errors  
> between
> the feed and the page.
>
> As for the way the HTML page would be structured??? this is more  
> or less what
> I have in mind: I'd use hAtom to mark up the page. Every application  
> version
> would be in its own hentry, with a rel-enclosure link to the actual
> download, and the version history in the entry-content.
>
> Sparkle can use some extra metadata, though: MD5 sums, DSA  
> signatures, and
> the application version (the latter is mandatory). The application  
> version
> could be marked up using a sparkle-version class, perhaps, but the  
> MD5 sum
> is a bit harder: I'd need something bigger than just rel-enclosure.
>
> Here's a quick example of what this could look like:
>
>   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
>   <html>
>       <head>
>           <title>Appcast</title>
>       </head>
>       <body>
>           <h1>Appcast</h1>
>           <div class="hentry">
>               <h2 class="entry-title">Adium <span
> class="sparkle-version">1.0.4</span></h2>
>               <p>Updated on <abbr class="updated"
> title="2007-06-20T18:00+01:00">24 June</abbr>.</p>
>               <div class="entry-content">
>                   <ul>
>                       <li>Fixed a crash introduced in 1.0.3 which  
> could occur when
> accounts disconnected or status changed</li>
>                       <li>Fixed group chat when message history is  
> enabled</li>
>                   </ul>
>               </div>
>               <p><a href="http://adiumx.cachefly.net/Adium_1.0.4.dmg"
> rel="enclosure">Download</a>. MD5 sum: <span
> class="sparkle-md5sum">0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f08</span>.</p>
>           </div>
>       </body>
>   </html>
>
> In this example, I've chose to make the sparkle-md5sum property part  
> of the
> hentry, which would mean that one hentry can unfortunately have only  
> one
> md5sum and thus one download, and I'm not happy about that.
>
> (I've also left out the author in the example above, mostly because  
> it makes
> the example a bit easier to read.)
>
> I've been working on a patch for Sparkle which adds very basic  
> support for
> hAtom, and it's looking good. Before I continue, I'd love to get some
> feedbacks on the ideas outlined above.
>
> Regards,
>
> Denis
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From conor at loudervoice.com  Fri Jul 27 01:11:43 2007
From: conor at loudervoice.com (Conor O'Neill)
Date: Fri Jul 27 01:11:56 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Blogger now supports hAtom
Message-ID: <46A9A8BF.9070606@argolon.com>

Just spotted on Blogger Dev Group that Blogger now supports hAtom. 
Congrats to whoever evangelised this into Google and to Pete Hopkins and 
the crew in there.

http://groups.google.com/group/bloggerDev/browse_thread/thread/69344c5cc35b472e?hl=en

Conor

From brian.suda at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 03:04:13 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Fri Jul 27 03:04:18 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Blogger now supports hAtom
In-Reply-To: <46A9A8BF.9070606@argolon.com>
References: <46A9A8BF.9070606@argolon.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780707270304q3dfb8dadm9f42fb806d175a0e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Conor O'Neill <conor@loudervoice.com> wrote:
> Just spotted on Blogger Dev Group that Blogger now supports hAtom.
> Congrats to whoever evangelised this into Google and to Pete Hopkins and
> the crew in there.

--- excellent, thanks for the good news. Would you also like to add
this to the hAtom page in the examples in the wild?

http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Examples_in_the_wild

as you come across other companies or products that are using hAtom
feel free to add them there as well.

-brian
 http://groups.google.com/group/bloggerDev/browse_thread/thread/69344c5cc35b472e?hl=en
>
> Conor
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Fri Jul 27 03:11:55 2007
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster)
Date: Fri Jul 27 04:01:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<007401c7cf15$8872db80$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
Message-ID: <b0ton4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>

Paul Wilkins wrote:

> "Accesskeys differ according to your browser." which links off to a page 
> that explains about Accesskeys, followed by "use ACCESSKEY S to save"

I like this, but remove the "Accesskeys differ according to your browser"
and just make "ACCESSKEY" a link within the phrase "use ACCESSKEY S to
save".

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 36 days, 13:50.]

                           Cryptography Challenge
         http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/24/crypto-challenge/

From rbach at rbach.priv.at  Fri Jul 27 04:50:45 2007
From: rbach at rbach.priv.at (Robert Bachmann)
Date: Fri Jul 27 04:50:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats thesis
In-Reply-To: <3826CB78-F2B6-4BEA-AFF6-0337E37CA640@gmail.com>
References: <3826CB78-F2B6-4BEA-AFF6-0337E37CA640@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A9DC15.5070502@rbach.priv.at>

Florian Beer wrote:
> http://blog.no-panic.at/projects/microformats-thesis/

Cool, I'm going to read it when I have some spare time.

-- 
Robert Bachmann <rbach@rbach.priv.at> (OpenPGP KeyID: 0x4A5CCF10)
From thom at ts0.com  Fri Jul 27 07:18:13 2007
From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon)
Date: Fri Jul 27 07:19:23 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] uf talk
Message-ID: <46A9FEA5.5050000@ts0.com>

I've put my name down to give a talk at the next GeekUp in Liverpool and 
I think microformats would be a good topic. I can talk about the 
different formats and the process, and some of the consumers like the 
browser plugins and technoratis search engine.

What else can I put in there? I want to try and show this group of web 
devs why they should be using ufs, what convinced you they were a good 
idea? Also what are the best examples of them being adopted by major 
sites, I know upcoming use them a lot, and there are some on flickr 
aren't there?

Any news on developments in Firefox 3 if people know, and word from the 
MSIE team? (There was something in a job ad from MS wasnt there?)

Thanks!
Thom
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 07:41:46 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Fri Jul 27 07:41:50 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] uf talk
In-Reply-To: <46A9FEA5.5050000@ts0.com>
References: <46A9FEA5.5050000@ts0.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780707270741s2bf8a751qffe0d80f042799ca@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/07, Thom Shannon <thom@ts0.com> wrote:
> I've put my name down to give a talk at the next GeekUp in Liverpool and
> I think microformats would be a good topic.

--- also add your talk to the events page:
http://microformats.org/wiki/events

> What else can I put in there? I want to try and show this group of web
> devs why they should be using ufs, what convinced you they were a good
> idea?

--- the Bluetooth phone demo is an excellent "ah ha! moment"
http://adactio.com/journal/1294/

> Also what are the best examples of them being adopted by major
> sites, I know upcoming use them a lot, and there are some on flickr
> aren't there?

--- the lists of examples in the wild for each format should get you
some good examples.

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From jpanzeracm at johnpanzer.com  Fri Jul 27 08:59:40 2007
From: jpanzeracm at johnpanzer.com (John Panzer)
Date: Fri Jul 27 07:58:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Blogger now supports hAtom
In-Reply-To: <46A9A8BF.9070606@argolon.com>
References: <46A9A8BF.9070606@argolon.com>
Message-ID: <46AA166C.8000308@johnpanzer.com>

Conor O'Neill wrote:
> Just spotted on Blogger Dev Group that Blogger now supports hAtom. 
> Congrats to whoever evangelised this into Google and to Pete Hopkins and 
> the crew in there.
> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/bloggerDev/browse_thread/thread/69344c5cc35b472e?hl=en 

Thanks.  Kevin Marks deserves a lot of the credit for evangelizing :).

-John

From robertc at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 09:10:35 2007
From: robertc at gmail.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Fri Jul 27 09:10:39 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume and hListing
Message-ID: <3ce2ebd20707270910t27f852b8m21e754188646c72a@mail.gmail.com>

I've just been updating my CV[1], mostly to change the 'education'
events to have a type specified in a span class="type" element as was
discussed on this list back in February.  While I was at it, I also
marked up my skills as hlistings with class offer-service.  I have two
questions:

1. Can anyone verify if I have my hlisting syntax correct?  I think
I've included all the required elements, but I'm not sure.
2. Is this at all sensible?  It seemed like a good idea at the time -
surely the point of a CV is that I'm offering my services?  But it
perhaps doesn't have any advantages over just using plain tags the way
I've done it.

Rob

[1] http://www.dotrob.com/cv.html
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jul 27 11:49:31 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jul 27 11:51:03 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Mediawiki accesskey shortcut usage instructions
In-Reply-To: <7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <30228.80.86.36.97.1185355750.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>
	<C2CCF551.927A9%tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
	<NC9JJLD1B9pGFwat@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<005101c7cf0e$6f462bf0$bc08a8c0@nzto22>
	<7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <F49rHPQ74jqGFwAe@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <7DRUJ0GFo9pGFw9v@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett 
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes

>>Perhaps this would be resolved more quickly if we get a hands-up of 
>>people, on this list, who aren't able to use ctrl-s to save.
>
>CTRL-S on my machine. *when editing a wiki page*, causes my browser to 
>open a dialogue to save a local copy of the editing form.

The above is in FireFox, with Win XP; the same also applies, I've just 
found, in Opera.

None of the other suggested combinations work as suggested, in either 
browser.

In opera, CTRL-E launches the registered e-mail application, and starts 
a new e-mail; I consider that "harmful".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jul 27 12:13:12 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jul 27 12:14:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Invalid "adr" on Flickr
Message-ID: <uPBRK8RIPkqGFwXx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


Flickr is displaying invalid adr microformats, for example in:

        <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pigsonthewing/718713806>

The relevant mark-up, in the above example, is:

        <li id="li_location"
            class="Stats adr">

        <span id="div_pre_geo_block">    </span>

        <a id="a_place_on_map_old"
           href="[...]"
           style="display:inline"
           class="Plain">

            Place this photo on a map

        </a>

        </li>

(note empty span)


-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jul 27 12:40:42 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jul 27 12:42:07 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo in Adr
Message-ID: <yvNWCTS6okqGFw2a@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


All addresses are fixed places. So shouldn't Geo be available as a 
subset of Adr, as it is for hCard?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Fri Jul 27 13:42:26 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Fri Jul 27 13:43:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] hRelease Update
In-Reply-To: <MRv5tnuWbVjGFwLC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <21e770780707051148j3765d14cn30959d095865ba04@mail.gmail.com>
	<MRv5tnuWbVjGFwLC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <hu$Ci3TyilqGFwlF@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <MRv5tnuWbVjGFwLC@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett
<andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> writes

>In message
><21e770780707051148j3765d14cn30959d095865ba04@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
>Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>There was a thread last month about the status of hRelease outside
>>of microformats, this should hopefully clear things-up.
>>
>>http://www.brianoberkirch.com/2007/07/05/hrelease-me/
>
>>hRelease doesn't exist.
>
>Uh huh.

Note also:

  <http://www.psnetwork.org.nz/blog/2007/02/27/microformats-govt-release/>

(Also note the reference in one of the replies, to a "de-facto NZ
Parliament microformat".)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From nancy_tubbs at fullcalendar.com  Fri Jul 27 13:59:11 2007
From: nancy_tubbs at fullcalendar.com (Nancy Tubbs)
Date: Fri Jul 27 14:00:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] URLs surrounded with brackets don't appear
Message-ID: <7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>

In case other email clients are like mine, you all might want to know that URLs surrounded with brackets aren't visible when reading the email. To see this link below I had to view source.  URLs without brackets show up fine. Just fyi in case it's a broader issue.

Nancy

-------- Original Message --------
> From: Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

> Note also:
> 
>   <http://www.psnetwork.org.nz/blog/2007/02/27/microformats-govt-release/>




From supercanadian at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 14:26:09 2007
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Fri Jul 27 14:26:12 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] URLs surrounded with brackets don't appear
In-Reply-To: <7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>
References: <7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0707271426t36beb511qfb47a2db6af8c895@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like your e-mail client might be thinking it is an (unknown)
HTML element.

What e-mail client are you using?

(They should really fix that, since it's a really old convention.
Maybe there's a way to file a bug report with them.)

On 7/27/07, Nancy Tubbs <nancy_tubbs@fullcalendar.com> wrote:
> In case other email clients are like mine, you all might want to know that URLs surrounded with brackets aren't visible when reading the email. To see this link below I had to view source.  URLs without brackets show up fine. Just fyi in case it's a broader issue.
>
> Nancy
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > From: Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>
> > Note also:
> >
> >   <http://www.psnetwork.org.nz/blog/2007/02/27/microformats-govt-release/>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>


                 Vlog Razor... Vlogging News
                    http://vlograzor.com/
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 17:53:37 2007
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Fri Jul 27 17:53:41 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats thesis
In-Reply-To: <88190c0f0707200526l7d21f6a1g8d5294ff090aa874@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3826CB78-F2B6-4BEA-AFF6-0337E37CA640@gmail.com>
	<88190c0f0707200526l7d21f6a1g8d5294ff090aa874@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0707271753j7cae9161w5bf2707588cedd16@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to see an English translation of it too.


-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>


                 Vlog Razor... Vlogging News
                    http://vlograzor.com/
From serdar at kilic.net  Fri Jul 27 23:17:11 2007
From: serdar at kilic.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Serdar_Kili=E7?=)
Date: Fri Jul 27 23:17:17 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] URLs surrounded with brackets don't appear
In-Reply-To: <7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>
References: <7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>
Message-ID: <A6F2A850-245D-4CA0-A6D0-BBA28251DBC3@kilic.net>

Hi Nancy,
On 28/07/2007, at 6:59 AM, Nancy Tubbs wrote:

> In case other email clients are like mine, you all might want to  
> know that URLs surrounded with brackets aren't visible when reading  
> the email. To see this link below I had to view source.  URLs  
> without brackets show up fine. Just fyi in case it's a broader issue.
>
> Nancy

It's fairly common to place links between angle brackets in email  
messages as this usually prevents long urls "breaking" when wrapped  
to a second line. It appears as though you're reading emails in HTML  
which is why the hyperlinks are disappearing as they're being treated  
as an HTML tag (with no name, thus being ignored). Try switching your  
mail client to plain text. Good luck!

Regards,
Serdar Kili?
http://weblog.kilic.net/




From nancy_tubbs at fullcalendar.com  Fri Jul 27 23:47:58 2007
From: nancy_tubbs at fullcalendar.com (Nancy Tubbs)
Date: Fri Jul 27 23:48:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] URLs surrounded with brackets don't appear
Message-ID: <9f543a9b52ed48a7a648574b201a4ef7@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>

Okay, okay, so this web interface is a POS - either does html poorly or text poorly, and I guess html is the lesser evil.

Sorry for the interruption; now back to our regular programming.

Thanks very much everyone,
Nancy

-------- Original Message --------
From: Serdar Kili? <serdar@kilic.net>
It appears as though you're reading emails in HTML  
which is why the hyperlinks are disappearing as they're being treated  
as an HTML tag (with no name, thus being ignored). Try switching your  
mail client to plain text. Good luck!




From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jul 28 01:02:15 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jul 28 01:04:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] URLs surrounded with brackets don't appear
In-Reply-To: <7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>
References: <7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>
Message-ID: <91y10MWHgvqGFwH1@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<7669d12995e34e61a1826da8dd21d24b@maila34.webcontrolcenter.com>, Nancy 
Tubbs <nancy_tubbs@fullcalendar.com> writes

>In case other email clients are like mine, you all might want to know 
>that URLs surrounded with brackets aren't visible when reading the 
>email. To see this link below I had to view source.  URLs without 
>brackets show up fine. Just fyi in case it's a broader issue.

How's this:

<url:http://www.psnetwork.org.nz/blog/2007/02/27/microformats-govt-release/>

?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From raydaly at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 02:37:18 2007
From: raydaly at gmail.com (Ray Daly)
Date: Sat Jul 28 02:37:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
Message-ID: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>

BDAY is described as birthday or birthdate (or date of birth), but I
think there is a significant difference.

I understand how to use BDAY as a birthdate (or date of birth) because
you have a year of birth (eg 19 June 1951)

But in my view birthday is only month and date because it repeats
every year. And some people don't want to disclose their year of birth
but do want to celebrate their birthday. (eg 19 June).

So has there been any discussion of this or resolution? I using
microformats in  greatuncle.com

Thanks  - ray daly
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sat Jul 28 02:42:39 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sat Jul 28 02:44:26 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Sample mark-up for date-time- and geo- coding pictures
	using microformats
Message-ID: <wqgGTAXP+wqGFw3P@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


FYI, my proposal for date-time stamping pictures, on WikiMedia Commons:

<url:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Geocoding#Date_.26_time-stamp_for_geo-coded_pictures>

(includes the geo-coding already done by that site)


Sites such as flikr could also use that pattern,

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From microformats at 200ok.com.au  Sat Jul 28 03:58:46 2007
From: microformats at 200ok.com.au (Ben Buchanan)
Date: Sat Jul 28 03:58:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] uf talk
In-Reply-To: <46A9FEA5.5050000@ts0.com>
References: <46A9FEA5.5050000@ts0.com>
Message-ID: <6ca82b0f0707280358p4690320ck6485bb7286cb0d16@mail.gmail.com>

> What else can I put in there? I want to try and show this group of web
> devs why they should be using ufs, what convinced you they were a good
> idea? Also what are the best examples of them being adopted by major
> sites, I know upcoming use them a lot, and there are some on flickr
> aren't there?

The example I like to use is hReview. With normal searching you can
wade through a lot of irrelevant pages which happen to have the same
keywords as the book/movie/whatever. A review search would let you
pull up actual reviews - no fuss.

hCard is actually a more widely used example and works with a lot of
phones/software; but people often freak out about privacy if you bring
it up. Which is absolutely ludicrous of course since ufs just add to
the data you're *already publishing*. But the privacy debate can
hijack discussions if you're not careful.

hCard is a good example for managers who actually have expensive
phones and big data plans paid for by the company. Show them how easy
it is to whack their details into someone's phone - they love that
stuff :)

cheers,
ben

-- 
--- <http://weblog.200ok.com.au/>
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
From boneill at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 17:24:09 2007
From: boneill at gmail.com (Ben O'Neill)
Date: Sat Jul 28 17:24:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Invalid "adr" on Flickr
In-Reply-To: <uPBRK8RIPkqGFwXx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <uPBRK8RIPkqGFwXx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <2C16B763-20E3-481E-B6B3-CACF340A53DA@gmail.com>


On 27 Jul 2007, at 20:13, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> Flickr is displaying invalid adr microformats, for example in:
>
>         <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pigsonthewing/718713806>
>
> The relevant mark-up, in the above example, is:
>
>         <li id="li_location"
>             class="Stats adr">
>
>         <span id="div_pre_geo_block">    </span>
>
>         <a id="a_place_on_map_old"
>            href="[...]"
>            style="display:inline"
>            class="Plain">
>
>             Place this photo on a map
>
>         </a>
>
>         </li>
>
> (note empty span)

I'm not sure why this is invalid? It's not exactly "good  
programming", but a parser should just ignore that as it's not part  
of the microformat.

(Note: That code wasn't in the webpage when I went to it but that's  
irrelevant)

Ben O'Neill
ben@benedictoneill.com



From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Sun Jul 29 05:41:07 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Sun Jul 29 05:42:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Invalid "adr" on Flickr
In-Reply-To: <2C16B763-20E3-481E-B6B3-CACF340A53DA@gmail.com>
References: <uPBRK8RIPkqGFwXx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<2C16B763-20E3-481E-B6B3-CACF340A53DA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BQ6q9SdjrIrGFwaL@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message <2C16B763-20E3-481E-B6B3-CACF340A53DA@gmail.com>, Ben O'Neill 
<boneill@gmail.com> writes

>On 27 Jul 2007, at 20:13, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
>> Flickr is displaying invalid adr microformats, for example in:
>>
>>         <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pigsonthewing/718713806>
>>
>> The relevant mark-up, in the above example, is:
>>
>>         <li id="li_location"
>>             class="Stats adr">
>>
>>         <span id="div_pre_geo_block">    </span>
>>
>>         <a id="a_place_on_map_old"
>>            href="[...]"
>>            style="display:inline"
>>            class="Plain">
>>
>>             Place this photo on a map
>>
>>         </a>
>>
>>         </li>
>>
>> (note empty span)
>
>I'm not sure why this is invalid? It's not exactly "good  programming", 
>but a parser should just ignore that as it's not part  of the 
>microformat.

The "adr" has no children; at least one is required.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Sun Jul 29 08:54:38 2007
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Sun Jul 29 08:54:48 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Invalid "adr" on Flickr
In-Reply-To: <2C16B763-20E3-481E-B6B3-CACF340A53DA@gmail.com>
References: <uPBRK8RIPkqGFwXx@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<2C16B763-20E3-481E-B6B3-CACF340A53DA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDD5228D-28D9-4589-BE2F-C51A342E989A@ben-ward.co.uk>

On 29 Jul 2007, at 01:24, Ben O'Neill wrote:
> (Note: That code wasn't in the webpage when I went to it but that's  
> irrelevant)

It only appears on _your own, non-geotagged_ photos. When you view  
someone else's, it's not there.

I've filed a bug with the Flickr team so it will hopefully get tidied  
up sometime in the future.

Ben
From brian_middleton at csnw.com  Mon Jul 30 13:37:33 2007
From: brian_middleton at csnw.com (Brian Middleton)
Date: Mon Jul 30 13:37:52 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Specifying a contact person for an org in hCard
Message-ID: <B1845BE2-6237-4824-AC08-E3875B49D3DE@csnw.com>

Is there a way to make an hCard that is specified as an organization  
have a person listed as a contact? I see in Apple's Address Book  
application that you can have a entry marked as a company and have  
the contact person's name right underneath the company name. How  
would that be formatted with hCard?

I tried labeling the organization with an 'fn' and the person's name  
with an 'n', but that made the person's name as the display name for  
the card and it didn't label it as an organization. I want the card  
to be marked as an organization.

Here is the hCard so far..

http://redplaidshirt.com/beaverton_hcard.html

I need to add in a contact name. How would I go about this?

Or, is there a way to add a custom field and label the person as  
'manager'?

Thanks for the help!

Brian
From brian.suda at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 13:54:27 2007
From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda)
Date: Mon Jul 30 13:54:30 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Specifying a contact person for an org in hCard
In-Reply-To: <B1845BE2-6237-4824-AC08-E3875B49D3DE@csnw.com>
References: <B1845BE2-6237-4824-AC08-E3875B49D3DE@csnw.com>
Message-ID: <21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/30/07, Brian Middleton <brian_middleton@csnw.com> wrote:
> Is there a way to make an hCard that is specified as an organization
> have a person listed as a contact? I see in Apple's Address Book
> application that you can have a entry marked as a company and have
> the contact person's name right underneath the company name. How
> would that be formatted with hCard?
>
> I tried labeling the organization with an 'fn' and the person's name
> with an 'n', but that made the person's name as the display name for
> the card and it didn't label it as an organization. I want the card
> to be marked as an organization.

--- i think you are pretty close, here is how the apple address book exports it:
X-ABShowAs:COMPANY
N:suda;brian;;;
FN:FooBar Ltd
ORG:FooBar Ltd;

So the FN == ORG, but they also put a proprietary X-ABShowAs which is
not part of the vCard spec. Can anyone else confirm how Outlook or
other PIMs would import/export similar situations?

-brian

-- 
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Mon Jul 30 15:47:18 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Mon Jul 30 15:47:32 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Specifying a contact person for an org in hCard
In-Reply-To: <21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B1845BE2-6237-4824-AC08-E3875B49D3DE@csnw.com>
	<21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <zofmjTG2pmrGFw+2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com>, Brian
Suda <brian.suda@gmail.com> writes

>On 7/30/07, Brian Middleton <brian_middleton@csnw.com> wrote:
>> Is there a way to make an hCard that is specified as an organization
>> have a person listed as a contact? I see in Apple's Address Book
>> application that you can have a entry marked as a company and have
>> the contact person's name right underneath the company name. How
>> would that be formatted with hCard?
>>
>> I tried labeling the organization with an 'fn' and the person's name
>> with an 'n', but that made the person's name as the display name for
>> the card and it didn't label it as an organization. I want the card
>> to be marked as an organization.

What about reversing those?

        <span class=fn>Brian Suda</span>
        <span class="n org">FooBar Ltd</span>

>--- i think you are pretty close, here is how the apple address book
>exports it:
>X-ABShowAs:COMPANY
>N:suda;brian;;;
>FN:FooBar Ltd
>ORG:FooBar Ltd;
>
>So the FN == ORG, but they also put a proprietary X-ABShowAs which is
>not part of the vCard spec. Can anyone else confirm how Outlook or
>other PIMs would import/export similar situations?

I've got Outlook 2002, which allows a contact to be recorded with a
person's name and an organisation, and uses "file as" to display the
latter, rather then the former, as the entry in Outlook's index.

It exports to .vcf as:

        N:Suda;Brian
        FN:Brian Suda
        ORG:FooBar Ltd

with no indicator of the previously-selected sort key.


The address book on my Nokia N95 has an "assistant" field, with no
further granularity (so I could fudge an entry for "FooBar Ltd", with
"Brian Suda" as the "assistant"). The field is exported to .vcf as
"X-ASSISTANT".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From supercanadian at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 16:21:08 2007
From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux)
Date: Mon Jul 30 16:21:11 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
In-Reply-To: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84ce626f0707301621r650e3461mbbb930ac1c29d879@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ray,

On 7/28/07, Ray Daly <raydaly@gmail.com> wrote:
> BDAY is described as birthday or birthdate (or date of birth), but I
> think there is a significant difference.
>
> I understand how to use BDAY as a birthdate (or date of birth) because
> you have a year of birth (eg 19 June 1951)
>
> But in my view birthday is only month and date because it repeats
> every year. And some people don't want to disclose their year of birth

Actually... AFAIK... your birthday and your date of birth are the same
thing.  (And they both have a year.)

What you are calling your "birthday" is short for "birthday anniversary".

Your "birthday anniversary" reoccurs every year on the same day and month.


See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>


                 Vlog Razor... Vlogging News
                    http://vlograzor.com/
From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com  Tue Jul 31 01:58:04 2007
From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty)
Date: Tue Jul 31 01:58:08 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Specifying a contact person for an org in hCard
In-Reply-To: <zofmjTG2pmrGFw+2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <B1845BE2-6237-4824-AC08-E3875B49D3DE@csnw.com>
	<21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<zofmjTG2pmrGFw+2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <cdc278e10707310158r2783e69ate4ddef5b8f56a24e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/30/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
> The address book on my Nokia N95 has an "assistant" field, with no
> further granularity (so I could fudge an entry for "FooBar Ltd", with
> "Brian Suda" as the "assistant"). The field is exported to .vcf as
> "X-ASSISTANT".

That's interesting, as vCard allows an AGENT field that can contain a
complete other vCard.  I don't know if any applications use it much.

-Ciaran McNulty
From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Tue Jul 31 03:44:54 2007
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster)
Date: Tue Jul 31 04:01:31 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: birthday versus birthdate
References: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6eg3o4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>

Ray Daly wrote:

> But in my view birthday is only month and date because it repeats
> every year. And some people don't want to disclose their year of birth
> but do want to celebrate their birthday. (eg 19 June).

As vCalendar doesn't allow any syntax to specify a date without a year,
you have three choices:

	1. Don't use hCalendar to record the birthday;
	2. Record the year, even if people don't want you to; or
	3. Use an implausible year, e.g. AD 1800 or AD 2500.

(If using option #3, make sure you don't choose a year so far back in time
that it pushes you into the Julian calendar. All hell will break loose.)

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 40 days, 14:21.]

                          demiblog 0.2.2 Released
          http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/29/demiblog-0.2.2/

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul 31 08:56:19 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul 31 08:56:24 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Birh date for organisations and venues
Message-ID: <26187.80.86.36.97.1185897379.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>

Do people think it's legitimate to use "bday" in the hCard of
organisations and venues, such as for the founding of a company or the
start/completion of a building?

Are there instances of publishers doing, so, already?

-- 
Andy Mabbett

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul 31 10:18:17 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul 31 10:19:36 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Specifying a contact person for an org in hCard
In-Reply-To: <cdc278e10707310158r2783e69ate4ddef5b8f56a24e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B1845BE2-6237-4824-AC08-E3875B49D3DE@csnw.com>
	<21e770780707301354l2bd458a0t4c26391649b45a1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<zofmjTG2pmrGFw+2@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
	<cdc278e10707310158r2783e69ate4ddef5b8f56a24e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1L0XbBLZ72rGFw92@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<cdc278e10707310158r2783e69ate4ddef5b8f56a24e@mail.gmail.com>, Ciaran 
McNulty <mail@ciaranmcnulty.com> writes

>On 7/30/07, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>> The address book on my Nokia N95 has an "assistant" field, with no
>> further granularity (so I could fudge an entry for "FooBar Ltd", with
>> "Brian Suda" as the "assistant"). The field is exported to .vcf as
>> "X-ASSISTANT".
>
>That's interesting, as vCard allows an AGENT field that can contain a 
>complete other vCard.  I don't know if any applications use it much.

Perhaps that's the solution that the original enquirer needs?

Are there any examples of publishers or parsers using "agent" in hCard?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul 31 11:48:50 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul 31 11:50:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Non-inclusive "dtend" problems
Message-ID: <n0Wj0lMSQ4rGFw9N@pigsonthewing.org.uk>


I have applied a trial hCalendar to a template in Wikipedia:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild#New_Examples>

As explained here:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki/mediawiki-mark-up-issues#Dtend>

There are problems in outputting non-inclusive "dtend" properties, using
MediaWiki software (I found the same problem with events on this
'wiki').

Life would be a *lot* simpler if the rule was to display the actual
data, and required /parsers/ to advance it by one day when exporting to
vCard, as previously suggested here:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-issues#Issues>

and:

  <http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Simplification_of_date-end>

This would also address a further (and less discussed) accessibility
issue with the use of "abbr".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From kevinmarks at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 12:37:34 2007
From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks)
Date: Tue Jul 31 12:37:37 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps
Message-ID: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>

http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2007/06/microformats-in-google-maps.html

Microformats in Google Maps
Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 4:28:00 PM
Posted by Gregor J. Rothfuss, Maps Team and Kevin Marks, Apps Team

If you have spent any time in certain corners of the web, you will
have heard of Microformats: Clever uses of HTML that add
machine-readability to everyday web pages while preserving
human-readability. Microformats allow tools to make more sense of your
web pages, while not changing the visual appearance for visitors to
your site one whit.

Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard
microformat to Google Maps results. Why should you care about some
invisible changes to our HTML? By marking up our results with the
hCard microformat, your browser can easily recognize the address and
contact information in the page, and help you transfer it to an
addressbook or phone more easily. Firefox users can install the
Operator or Tails extension; IE or Safari users can use one of these
bookmarklets. [...]
From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Jul 31 14:00:04 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Jul 31 14:00:27 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps
In-Reply-To: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3199E868-373E-4B10-ACBA-C2D93D977CD9@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 31, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Kevin Marks wrote:

> Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard
> microformat to Google Maps results.

Great news!  I've successfully exported a few useful vCards already.

Peace,
Scott
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul 31 16:05:06 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul 31 16:06:46 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps
In-Reply-To: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <936V0OQiA8rGFw$A@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>, Kevin 
Marks <kevinmarks@gmail.com> writes

>http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2007/06/microformats-in-google-maps.ht
>ml
>
>Microformats in Google Maps
>Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 4:28:00 PM


>Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard 
>microformat to Google Maps results.

That's splendid - but I do wonder why they don't also present and encode 
the coordinates!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul 31 16:10:08 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul 31 16:11:34 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps
In-Reply-To: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <yXGW8lQQF8rGFwds@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message 
<73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>, Kevin 
Marks <kevinmarks@gmail.com> writes

>Microformats in Google Maps

P.S.

I've updated Wikipedia accordingly:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps#Development_history_until_recent_issues>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HCard#Users>

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk  Tue Jul 31 16:19:54 2007
From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Date: Tue Jul 31 16:20:21 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps
In-Reply-To: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p30QUlRaO8rGFw9B@pigsonthewing.org.uk>

In message
<73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>, Kevin
Marks <kevinmarks@gmail.com> writes

>Microformats in Google Maps

Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This
search:

        <http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl>

has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up)
has:

        NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps
        N:;;
        ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address:
        FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address:
        ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;;

(viewed in Operator)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
From karl at w3.org  Tue Jul 31 16:03:05 2007
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Tue Jul 31 16:56:15 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0707301621r650e3461mbbb930ac1c29d879@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0707301621r650e3461mbbb930ac1c29d879@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A367FC35-4B7A-4E50-A899-B49F546C6E2B@w3.org>


Le 31 juil. 2007 ? 08:21, Charles Iliya Krempeaux a ?crit :
> Actually... AFAIK... your birthday and your date of birth are the same
> thing.  (And they both have a year.)

Not in Korea at least.


-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




From tdrake at yahoo-inc.com  Tue Jul 31 17:01:57 2007
From: tdrake at yahoo-inc.com (Ted Drake)
Date: Tue Jul 31 17:02:00 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps
In-Reply-To: <p30QUlRaO8rGFw9B@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
References: <73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<p30QUlRaO8rGFw9B@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
Message-ID: <016201c7d3cf$2d62d010$a7dd15ac@ds.corp.yahoo.com>

If you need the hcard for local businesses, try Yahoo! Local. They've been
microformatted with hcard and hreview for a long time.

Ted


-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andy
Mabbett
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:20 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

In message
<73766b160707311237x650ce943w1f68ca7cf33c17c8@mail.gmail.com>, Kevin
Marks <kevinmarks@gmail.com> writes

>Microformats in Google Maps

Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This
search:

        <http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl>

has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up)
has:

        NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps
        N:;;
        ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address:
        FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address:
        ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;;;;;

(viewed in Operator)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From karl at w3.org  Tue Jul 31 17:11:18 2007
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Tue Jul 31 17:11:25 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
In-Reply-To: <A367FC35-4B7A-4E50-A899-B49F546C6E2B@w3.org>
References: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0707301621r650e3461mbbb930ac1c29d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<A367FC35-4B7A-4E50-A899-B49F546C6E2B@w3.org>
Message-ID: <726D5BF7-8720-4669-A5A8-ACDD82402C85@w3.org>


Le 1 ao?t 2007 ? 08:03, Karl Dubost a ?crit :
> Le 31 juil. 2007 ? 08:21, Charles Iliya Krempeaux a ?crit :
>> Actually... AFAIK... your birthday and your date of birth are the  
>> same
>> thing.  (And they both have a year.)
>
> Not in Korea at least.

I was writing this in the commuting train without internet access.

     East Asian age reckoning is a concept that
     originated in China and is used in East Asian
     countries. Several East Asian cultures, such as
     Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese, share
     a traditional way of counting a person's age.
     Newborns start at one year old, and each passing
     of a New Year, rather than the birthday, adds one
     year to the person's age; this results in people
     usually being between 1-2 years older in Asian
     reckoning than in the Western version. This
     system is still widely used in China and is used
     universally in Korea, with exceptions to the
     legal system. However, its use is less common in
     other countries.
     - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning


-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




From scott at randomchaos.com  Tue Jul 31 18:05:58 2007
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Tue Jul 31 18:06:16 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
In-Reply-To: <726D5BF7-8720-4669-A5A8-ACDD82402C85@w3.org>
References: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0707301621r650e3461mbbb930ac1c29d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<A367FC35-4B7A-4E50-A899-B49F546C6E2B@w3.org>
	<726D5BF7-8720-4669-A5A8-ACDD82402C85@w3.org>
Message-ID: <5708D20E-E826-462C-A09F-1921F54CD40E@randomchaos.com>

On Jul 31, 2007, at 6:11 PM, Karl Dubost wrote:

>>> Actually... AFAIK... your birthday and your date of birth are the  
>>> same
>>> thing.  (And they both have a year.)
>>
>> Not in Korea at least.
>
> I was writing this in the commuting train without internet access.
>
>     East Asian age reckoning is a concept that
>     originated in China and is used in East Asian
>     countries. Several East Asian cultures, such as
>     Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese, share
>     a traditional way of counting a person's age.
>     Newborns start at one year old, and each passing
>     of a New Year, rather than the birthday, adds one
>     year to the person's age; this results in people
>     usually being between 1-2 years older in Asian
>     reckoning than in the Western version. This
>     system is still widely used in China and is used
>     universally in Korea, with exceptions to the
>     legal system. However, its use is less common in
>     other countries.

I think this just reinforces what Charles said: the anniversary  
celebration of an event is not the same as the event.  In this case,  
birthday anniversaries are celebrated on New Year, but that doesn't  
mean everyone's birthday nor date of birth is New Year.  Similarly,  
in America we often celebrate former Presidents' birthdays on days  
that are not actually their birthdays.  But no one says the birthday  
changes every year; only the celebration changes.

Peace,
Scott

From karl at w3.org  Tue Jul 31 18:36:12 2007
From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost)
Date: Tue Jul 31 18:36:19 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
In-Reply-To: <5708D20E-E826-462C-A09F-1921F54CD40E@randomchaos.com>
References: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<84ce626f0707301621r650e3461mbbb930ac1c29d879@mail.gmail.com>
	<A367FC35-4B7A-4E50-A899-B49F546C6E2B@w3.org>
	<726D5BF7-8720-4669-A5A8-ACDD82402C85@w3.org>
	<5708D20E-E826-462C-A09F-1921F54CD40E@randomchaos.com>
Message-ID: <8CE0BBAB-85A0-4BF6-B2EB-B7848975D871@w3.org>


Le 1 ao?t 2007 ? 10:05, Scott Reynen a ?crit :
> I think this just reinforces what Charles said: the anniversary  
> celebration of an event is not the same as the event.  In this  
> case, birthday anniversaries are celebrated on New Year, but that  
> doesn't mean everyone's birthday nor date of birth is New Year.   
> Similarly, in America we often celebrate former Presidents'  
> birthdays on days that are not actually their birthdays.  But no  
> one says the birthday changes every year; only the celebration  
> changes.

I have at least two korean friends who uses the word "birthdate" for  
what you say is an "event celebration".
:) I was just pointing out that birthday != birthdate for some  
people. That's all

(back to my normal sleeping mode)

-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***




From raydaly at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 19:14:41 2007
From: raydaly at gmail.com (Ray Daly)
Date: Tue Jul 31 19:14:45 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: birthday versus birthdate
In-Reply-To: <6eg3o4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
References: <cf284ee50707280237l3b171c5fw7f0618310e9ec1f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<6eg3o4-nvu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cf284ee50707311914o6a60d6a3m102097167ed3da16@mail.gmail.com>

Toby, I complete agree with your view. I'm not sure which of the three
options that I will take and certainly not a too early year. Thanks
for the confirmation.

-ray

On 7/31/07, Toby A Inkster <mail@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:
> Ray Daly wrote:
>
> > But in my view birthday is only month and date because it repeats
> > every year. And some people don't want to disclose their year of birth
> > but do want to celebrate their birthday. (eg 19 June).
>
> As vCalendar doesn't allow any syntax to specify a date without a year,
> you have three choices:
>
>         1. Don't use hCalendar to record the birthday;
>         2. Record the year, even if people don't want you to; or
>         3. Use an implausible year, e.g. AD 1800 or AD 2500.
>
> (If using option #3, make sure you don't choose a year so far back in time
> that it pushes you into the Julian calendar. All hell will break loose.)
>
> --
> Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
> [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
> [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 40 days, 14:21.]
>
>                           demiblog 0.2.2 Released
>           http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/29/demiblog-0.2.2/
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>


-- 
Blog- http://www.abcedmindedness.com
From joe at andrieu.net  Tue Jul 31 21:54:38 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Tue Jul 31 21:54:42 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled
	onthe wiki
In-Reply-To: <53829.64.142.103.248.1184714153.squirrel@mail.alumni.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <002301c7d3f8$110c08e0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome>

khare@alumni.caltech.edu (Tuesday, July 17, 2007 4:16 PM) wrote:
> [This email is a current copy of the wiki page at 
> Category:public_domain_license ; I wanted to prompt 
> discussion here as well as fold substantive feedback back 
> into that wiki page, of course... Thanks, Rohit]

[snip]

> Disclaimer
> 
>    Unlike other efforts that might come to mind, it's 
> important to note
>    that microformats are not "standards," microformats.org is not a
>    "standards body" (legal sense [13]),
>    and that the microformats admins are not a "legal entity" 
> (and nor do
>    they have any official links to CommerceNet or Technorati, two
>    companies that were influential early sponsors). For that matter,
>    there's no bank account or any other financial standing; 
> if you see a
>    hip new microformats sticker [14] out there, it's a 
> private donation
>    (in that case, by Dan Cederholm).

[snip]
 
> Point of Contact
> 
>    While community members are generally encouraged to discuss matters
>    openly, if you have a specific legal questions, please contact
>    Rohit Khare [24], who has volunteered to be the initial 
> point of contact
>    for the administrators, before starting a discussion on the public,
>    archived mailing lists, IRC, or wiki, since there can be 
> occasionally
>    be legal implications for statements published on the 
> microformats.org
>    domain.
> 
> References
>  13. http://consortiuminfo.org/laws/
>  14. http://www.flickr.com/photos/73921563@N00/639108451
>  24. http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Rohit

Rohit,

Thanks for your efforts to move the uF administrators toward action on this issue.  I appreciate it.  The release into public domain
certainly removes a few complications, although as I discuss here, it also creates some.

I have delayed replying for two reasons. First, you have asked for legal conversations to be handled privately. Second, both the
decision and handling of the decision, while well intentioned, leave me rather dissatisfied with the continued inability of
microformats leadership, to handle this matter in a more open, transparent, and inclusive manner. For both of those reasons, I
wanted to consider what I might say that could be constructive rather than divisive.  I probably fail in that effort, but I am
trying.

For whatever reason, there appears to be agreement among those in charge, that open discussion of these issues is inappropriate.

I don't agree with that and as a result, I can no longer continue to support the judgment that public conversation over community
issues is inappropriate.  In fact, I believe that the avoidance of any public conversation has instead enabled a handful of poor
decisions to severely limit the possibilities of microformats as a community, including creating significant potential liability for
contributors. Perhaps they were not poor decisions, I have only the outcomes and not the intermediary threads from which to draw my
conclusion.

Those individuals who control microformats.org and the microformats mailing list have chosen NOT to incorporate and not to provide
contributors the protections available under the auspices of a standards organization. 

You, collectively, have also decided that the standard community policy should be to release microformats into the public domain.

I find both of those decisions troubling. The first because the protections afforded by an official standards organization (as
discussed in reference 13 above) are fairly significant and as microformats gain in popularity, so does the potential liability and
exposure by contributors.  It is certainly within the rights of those who control the website and email list to /not/ further
complicate their lives with the formation of a new non-profit organization. However, I believe it is now costing, and will continue
to cost, the microformats community significantly.  If the current leadership doesn't want to accept that burden, I recommend
finding people you trust, who will.

The second decision is troubling because releasing IP into the public domain has several well-known problems including loss of
control, which would seem to be improtant if we want interoperability across microformats. It also sidesteps issues related to
current or future patents that overlap microformats. As such, it is a bit of a red herring that leads our attention away from the
more troubling and controversial aspects of intellectual property as it relates to standards development.
 
See the following for a discussion of these problems:
http://consortiuminfo.org/ipr/

Wikipedia is cited as justification for this decision, with the disturbing assertion that future licensing and copyright terms would
most likely change to follow changes in Wikipedia's policy.  With all due respect, arbitrarily following the policies of another
popular web service is no substitute for sound legal advice and reasoning. Our mandate is significantly different than Wikipedia's.
Wikipedia is not attempting to establish its content as standard specifications. We are. 

Finally, the assertion that microformats are not standards is exceptionally disturbing and highlights a particularly myopic strain
of selective legalism. It is true there is no microformat organization that classifies as a standards body--indeed the leadership
and contributors all remain personally liable for their individual actions and potentially for their collective actions. However, it
doesn't take much to build a coherent legal case that microformats /are/ standards, not only because it is clearly stated in the
hCard specification:
===
hCard is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding in (X)HTML, Atom, RSS,
===
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard 
===

But also because the essential nature of microformats is that they represent a /shared/ agreed-upon lexicon and technique for
presenting semantic data in html. Those shared agreements are standards. 

When people use non-standard microformats, they don't work. Operator and Tails won't pick them up. In fact, we refer to such
non-compliant microformats as "unofficial" or "POSH", plain old semantic html.  What's the difference between POSH and microformats?
Microformats have been standardized through a well-documented community process. Semantic HTML has not.

You may not agree with this argument, but I would be surprised if you felt it was so spurious as to be dismissed out of hand in a
court of law.  On the contrary, a court would, IMO, find it compelling enough to require further investigation as to the nature and
scope of the microformats movement, the contributions of its members, and the exact statutory and case law that applies (not to
mention issues of jurisdiction).

I understand the complexities of going "official". It is not something to be done lightly. But these issues aren't going away, no
matter how much the leadership shuts down conversation here and on the wiki.  Hiding from the issue doesn't solve it.

I believe that every contributor here is putting themselves and their company at risk if they develop protectable IP that relies on
microformats.  

It won't serve us to debate that point; rather, I encourage every one of you who is building a business case for microformats to
have your attorney look into (1) what would happen if someone /else/ had a patent that limited your use of microformats and (2) what
would happen if your company should develop a patent that limits the use of a microformat standard that you helped create.  In
particular, ask for their opinion about the legal definition of standards and the risks of anti-trust and anti-collusion laws in
your particular case.

The larger your company, the more important this is, but I would also hate to see this clobber startups who simply made the wrong
call.

Certainly incorporating a formal standards setting organization won't solve all the problems related to IP, and I agree that
ultimately only the courts can decide wether or not microformats are standards in the context of anti-trust law.  However, it is
clear to me that the case is close enough to merit legal review and almost certainly close enough--in a situation of relative
worth--to merit asking a court to decide the matter directly in the form of a lawsuit.

I expect that many of the leadership find this train of thought distasteful. It is, as it stinks of unproductive legal
confrontations. But such are a part of life and business in high tech entrepreneurship and development. Shoving it under the rug
doesn't make it go away.

That's all. I don't know if this will help anything.  Those in charge of microformats have not been responsive to this issue in the
past and I don't hold out hope that this particular piece is moving and eloquent enough to change that.  

I do hope that for at least some of you, it may provide a motivation to validate your own understanding with an attorney as concerns
intellectual property, anti-trust law, and your participation in the microformats community.

Best,

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
joe@switchbook.com
+1 (805) 705-8651 


From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 22:22:46 2007
From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar)
Date: Tue Jul 31 22:22:53 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now enabled
	onthe wiki
In-Reply-To: <002301c7d3f8$110c08e0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome>
References: <002301c7d3f8$110c08e0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome>
Message-ID: <F6B44AD2-3CF0-494A-9F74-6689207ACBED@gmail.com>

[Apologies if this is off-topic, but I'm not sure where/how else to  
discuss this]

Hi Joe,

On Jul 31, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote:
> I expect that many of the leadership find this train of thought  
> distasteful. It is, as it stinks of unproductive legal  
> confrontations. But such are a part of life and business in high  
> tech entrepreneurship and development. Shoving it under the rug  
> doesn't make it go away.

I appreciate your comments, and I do believe that they are well- 
intentioned and intended to be constructive.

That said, I can't help but wonder if this is one of the (few) cases  
where we *can* ignore the problem, and it *might* go away.

 From what I can see, several large organizations (e.g., Google,  
Wikpedia, LinkedIn) have made major efforts to incorporate  
microformat content.  I personally find it hard to envision a  
sustained legal challenge that would cause those organizations to  
reverse course.

To be sure, that may simply be a lack of imagination on my (and  
their) part.  But -- as someone who deals with licensing on a regular  
basis, as an OSI Board Observer -- the lack of formal legal  
protection does not appear to be hindering microformats adoption "in  
the large", even if there are individual corporations that choose not  
to participate.

Under the circumstances, is there really any hard evidence that this  
is something the community *must* deal with, or is it simply a "gut  
feeling" based on how other standards organizations handle such issues?

-- Ernie P.

From joe at andrieu.net  Tue Jul 31 22:48:04 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Tue Jul 31 22:48:10 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now
	enabledonthe wiki
In-Reply-To: <F6B44AD2-3CF0-494A-9F74-6689207ACBED@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501c7d3ff$8887c970$0200a8c0@andrieuhome>

Hi Ernie,

Ernest Prabhakar (Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:23 PM) wrote:
> On Jul 31, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Joe Andrieu wrote:
> > I expect that many of the leadership find this train of thought
> > distasteful. It is, as it stinks of unproductive legal  
> > confrontations. But such are a part of life and business in high  
> > tech entrepreneurship and development. Shoving it under the rug  
> > doesn't make it go away.
> 
> I appreciate your comments, and I do believe that they are well- 
> intentioned and intended to be constructive.
> 
> That said, I can't help but wonder if this is one of the (few) cases  
> where we *can* ignore the problem, and it *might* go away.
> 
>  From what I can see, several large organizations (e.g., Google,  
> Wikpedia, LinkedIn) have made major efforts to incorporate  
> microformat content.  I personally find it hard to envision a  
> sustained legal challenge that would cause those organizations to  
> reverse course.
> 
> To be sure, that may simply be a lack of imagination on my (and  
> their) part.  But -- as someone who deals with licensing on a 
> regular  
> basis, as an OSI Board Observer -- the lack of formal legal  
> protection does not appear to be hindering microformats adoption "in  
> the large", even if there are individual corporations that 
> choose not  
> to participate.
> 
> Under the circumstances, is there really any hard evidence that this  
> is something the community *must* deal with, or is it simply a "gut  
> feeling" based on how other standards organizations handle 
> such issues?

The best hard evidence I know of is discussed at the URL I mentioned in my email:
http://consortiuminfo.org/ipr/

I would particularly draw your attention to the problems Dell, Rambus, and Qualcomm all had because of lawsuits triggered by their
allegedly inappropriate participation in standards development.

My argument, btw, isn't that this is hindering adoption of existing microformats. We have a tiger by the tail that is going to grow
no matter what we do.

But how well it grows--and what growing pains we experience as it does--will depend on how we handle a number of issues, including
how we handle intellectual property rights.  The problems of Dell, Rambus, and Qualcomm were precisely because their technologies
got embedded into industry standards that were wildly successful.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we still have no assertions or agreements by any of uF authors for non-enforcement of any and all past
and future patent rights related to their work on microformats.  Why not? 

More importantly to me personally, I am interested in particular microformats that support my own company. We definitely have
protected and protectable IP, of the kind that could implicate me (and us) in anti-trust problems if I were to be successful in
influencing uF in a direction that ultimately infringes on one of our patents.  Now, one can say that's easy, just don't enforce
such patents, it's bad karma anyway.  However, it is not that easy to do, especially as a startup where strong IP position helps our
financing outlook, and ultimately the investors will control the IP, not me.  The result is reduced contributions because I simply
can't afford the potential exposure.

Finally, the lack of transparency is the most frustrating aspect of this decision.  Why aren't these issues laid out on the wiki and
discussed on a governance list?  This sort of elusive autocratic leadership undermines my trust in the administrators.  And /that/
is part of why many people I have personally spoken to have chosen to not contribute and moved on to other work.  Sometimes I wonder
why I'm still banging my head against the wall here. I guess it is my incurable optimism or perhaps my undying faith that things can
be made better.

Here's to hoping.

Cheers,

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
joe@switchbook.com
+1 (805) 705-8651 


From joe at andrieu.net  Tue Jul 31 23:06:31 2007
From: joe at andrieu.net (Joe Andrieu)
Date: Tue Jul 31 23:06:38 2007
Subject: [uf-discuss] Voluntary Public Domain declarations now
	enabledonthe wiki
In-Reply-To: <F6B44AD2-3CF0-494A-9F74-6689207ACBED@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c7d402$1e02edc0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome>

Ernest Prabhakar (Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:23 PM) wrote:
> Under the circumstances, is there really any hard evidence that this  
> is something the community *must* deal with, or is it simply a "gut  
> feeling" based on how other standards organizations handle 
> such issues?

Sorry, one more reference, which was burried in the IPR page:

===
Qualcomm's own general counsel, Lou Lupin, was "gratified" by the finding on the USPTO issues, but less happy about the disclosure
ruling, stating:

    We are very troubled, however, by the judge's finding that an obligation to make IPR declarations may arise in the standard
setting environment from members' 'understandings' not expressed in the standard setting organization's written IPR policy. Such a
rule would leave companies whose businesses require them to participate in standardization efforts in the untenable position of
having to guess what their disclosure obligations might be. We respectfully disagree with the court's reasoning that strict
compliance with a standards body's written IPR policy is not enough. We also believe that, even if such an unwritten obligation
could arise when the standards body members all considered themselves to be so obligated, all evidence here was that the JVT
participants did not. 
===

This is from the article "Federal Court Rules Against Qualcomm in a "Son of Rambus" Suit" dated March 32, 2007. Accessed July 31,
2007. http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070323094639964

I think it would be hard to find a more timely example of "hard evidence" for the IP problems we are dealing with. Note that this
example involved a formally incorporated and registered standards organization. One need not be overly imaginative to consider the
increased complications that could arise from limited and voluntary "public domain" IP policy endorsed by the leadership of this
unincorporated community.

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
joe@switchbook.com
+1 (805) 705-8651