From danny.ayers at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 04:12:37 2007 From: danny.ayers at gmail.com (Danny Ayers) Date: Tue Nov 6 04:12:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OpenID, Profile URIs and GRDDL Message-ID: <1f2ed5cd0711060412r2a55d2aer667997031e99c5f2@mail.gmail.com> I just ran across a blogosphere thread starting somewhere around: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/11/01/hcard-for-openid-simple-registration-and-attribute-exchange/ through http://willnorris.com/2007/11/hcard-is-not-a-provisioning-engine-for-private-data - which turns into concrete proposals on Tantek's blog. I'd like to comment specifically on this: [[ Modest proposal 3, in two parts: 1. Let's host the "official" "latest" hCard XMDP profile at http://microformats.org/profile/hcard 2. Let's create a set of HTTP redirects for appended /propertynames, ]] http://tantek.com/log/2007/11.html#d02t2318 Great! This is much more useful for interop than having to use Wiki page URLs as profile URIs, especially since they're not much good for machine-reading (I know 'people first' but computers need a little help putting them first...). There's already a hCard XMDP profile in place at http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard, which might be a possible alternative URI to http://microformats.org/profile/hcard, though I doubt whether much would break with a redirect on one end or the other. I'd also like to propose (again) that *all* the established microformats get more useful profile URIs, with XMDP documents and appropriate data-view linkage to support GRDDL on the microformat. A lot of these documents have already been prepared ready to deploy (I've done a couple myself), the only problem having been no microformats.org-approved locations for them. In the same way that hCard can be reused with OpenID, with profiles in place all the microformats can be reused with Semantic Web technologies with no extra cost to any publisher who is already following known best practices. Similarly, with profile URIs in place it's straightforward to produce quality microformat documents from RDF-modelled systems (e.g. see http://dannyayers.com/2007/11/04/foaf-sample-data-and -although I won't guarantee the quality there...). Speaking of best practices, maybe now would be a good time to say again that it would be good Web etiquette for the microformats community to encourage the use of HTML meta data profile URIs (through specification and leading-by-example), rather than claiming a set of short strings as their own. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_Data (btw, there are quite a few systems around which allow mapping between LDAP and RDF which should allow good integration between traditional ID provision and hCard) Cheers, Danny. -- http://dannyayers.com From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Nov 6 08:29:09 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Nov 6 08:32:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: Hi everyone, Following on somewhat from the messages last month regarding the OBJECT pattern I've updated the Wiki page (http://microformats.org/ wiki/include-pattern) quite substantially. The old page was a mess, especially with the later addition of the hyperlink include pattern. I've reorganised it to give both patterns equal substance on the page and following the most recent, serious OBJECT pattern issues I've moved the Hyperlink pattern above the OBJECT pattern in the Wiki page. ? I've made the examples for both patterns consistent: They use the same scenario now, the only difference being the use of A or OBJECT. I hop that will make it easier to follow and compare. I've also made the pitfalls for each pattern clear below each. ? Much of the text has been edited for what I hope is more clarity. The voice (?you can??) has been neutered. q ? The hyperlink pattern now acknowledges the assistive technology implications and actively encourages inclusion of inner text in hyperlinks. ? This update also makes the ?replacement? behaviour of the object pattern clearer, which I hope addresses the issue raised on the Wiki by Mike Kaply (regarding how to parse the pattern). ? Much emphasis is put on the scope of the include pattern being same- page. This is a big edit, but the page was not in a good state and this needed doing. I ask that people take a little time to read the new version, compare it to the old and raise any remaining issues. Thank you, Ben From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Nov 6 08:34:27 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Nov 6 08:58:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: <8A0B2531-DACF-439B-8278-3EB9B88527A3@ben-ward.co.uk> Hi everyone, Following on somewhat from the messages last month regarding the OBJECT pattern I've updated the Wiki page (http://microformats.org/ wiki/include-pattern) quite substantially. The old page was a mess, especially with the later addition of the hyperlink include pattern. I've reorganised it to give both patterns equal substance on the page and following the most recent, serious OBJECT pattern issues I've moved the Hyperlink pattern above the OBJECT pattern in the Wiki page. ? I've made the examples for both patterns consistent: They use the same scenario now, the only difference being the use of A or OBJECT. I hop that will make it easier to follow and compare. I've also made the pitfalls for each pattern clear below each. ? Much of the text has been edited for what I hope is more clarity. The voice (?you can??) has been neutered. q ? The hyperlink pattern now acknowledges the assistive technology implications and actively encourages inclusion of inner text in hyperlinks. ? This update also makes the ?replacement? behaviour of the object pattern clearer, which I hope addresses the issue raised on the Wiki by Mike Kaply (regarding how to parse the pattern). ? Much emphasis is put on the scope of the include pattern being same- page. This is a big edit, but the page was not in a good state and this needed doing. I ask that people take a little time to read the new version, compare it to the old and raise any remaining issues. Thank you, Ben From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 6 12:22:06 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Tue Nov 6 12:22:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: <527423.1616.qm@web96003.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Ben Ward > This is a big edit, but the page was not in a good state and this > needed doing. I ask that people take a little time to read the new > version, compare it to the old and raise any remaining issues. The hyperlink example shows that Ben Ward is replaced by James Levine The text that follows states that the hyperlink "can require repeating a small piece of information (such as a person's name in an hCard)" If the names in the examples were consistent, they would help to reinforce the stated requirement. The names (ben ward and james levine) should be consistant with each other. It may also be a good idea to use more meaningful id names in both the hyperlink and obect examples, so that those who implement this pattern are encouraged to use good id naming schemes too. We don't want to encourage bad behaviour. Further down there is "OBJECT elements referencing fragments of the same document erroneously cause the browser to make additional HTTP requests. For scenarios where HTTP requests are a sensitive performance measure, this makes the hyperlink pattern inappropriate." If the object element cause additional HTTP requests, shouldn't this make the object pattern inappropriate, and not the hyperlink one? -- Paul Wilkins From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Nov 6 13:20:13 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Nov 6 13:18:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated In-Reply-To: <8A0B2531-DACF-439B-8278-3EB9B88527A3@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: On 11/6/07 8:34 AM, "Ben Ward" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Following on somewhat from the messages last month regarding the > OBJECT pattern I've updated the Wiki page (http://microformats.org/ > wiki/include-pattern) quite substantially. Ben, this is a *tremendous* update, thanks very much and well done. I have fully reviewed it and the previous version and I only found one section in particular that I believe needed some additional non-trivial edits. > ? The hyperlink pattern now acknowledges the assistive technology > implications and actively encourages inclusion of inner text in > hyperlinks. I've added RFC2119 language (should) to that section, and noted that a citation is required for the assistive technology implication assertion. Far too often (in this forum and other forums) I have seen accessibility requirements / practices spoken authoritatively as dogma, without any citations to clear text explaining why, and due to what *specific* assistive technologies (perhaps specific versions as well) are affected, and as a result, the conversation around accessibility often descends into religious debate. When that happens, there is no room left for intelligent scientific discourse, and the level of discussion drops down to "You have to do XYZ because I said so because I'm an accessibility expert and you're not." This is not helpful for progress and understanding, neither among web authors, nor frankly for accessibility itself. We need to call out such "accessibility dogmatism" whenever it occurs, and ask for scientific backing. Because only with scientific backing can we actually explore nuances with new situations, new user agents etc. and re-evaluate the accessibility "rules of thumb" that are often asserted as absolute, and evolve them accordingly. I recommend that *everyone* concerned with accessibility even a little (which hopefully means everyone) read this presentation by Joe Clarke which debunks a lot of common accessibility dogma: "When accessibility is not your problem" http://joeclark.org/appearances/atmedia2007/ I've noted a quote from part of that presentation regarding link text in the include-pattern page. http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern#Accessibility_concerns Thanks, Tantek From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Nov 6 13:57:42 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Nov 6 13:56:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated In-Reply-To: <527423.1616.qm@web96003.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/07 12:22 PM, "paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz" wrote: > From: Ben Ward >> This is a big edit, but the page was not in a good state and this >> needed doing. I ask that people take a little time to read the new >> version, compare it to the old and raise any remaining issues. > > The hyperlink example shows that > > Ben Ward > > is replaced by > > > James class="family-name">Levine > > > > The text that follows states that the hyperlink "can require repeating a small > piece of information (such as a person's name in an hCard)" > If the names in the examples were consistent, they would help to reinforce the > stated requirement. > The names (ben ward and james levine) should be consistant with each other. Indeed. In addition, the whole reason the include-pattern was developed was to NOT to have to repeat such text in the content of the document. Thus I've changed it to use the 'title' attribute instead, which is simultaneously a less invasive / content-affecting requirement on the author, and still available to assistive technologies (same citation in the section, Clark, 2007). http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern#accessibility > It may also be a good idea to use more meaningful id names in both the > hyperlink and obect examples, so that those who implement this pattern are > encouraged to use good id naming schemes too. We don't want to encourage bad > behaviour. That's reasonable. Updated. > Further down there is "OBJECT elements referencing fragments of the same > document erroneously cause the browser to make additional HTTP requests. For > scenarios where HTTP requests are a sensitive performance measure, this makes > the hyperlink pattern inappropriate." > > If the object element cause additional HTTP requests, shouldn't this make the > object pattern inappropriate, and not the hyperlink one? Good catch. Please have another read: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern Thanks! Tantek From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 6 18:19:10 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Tue Nov 6 18:19:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: <619059.6398.qm@web96001.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Tantek ?elik > On 11/6/07 12:22 PM, "paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz" wrote: > > The text that follows states that the hyperlink "can require repeating a small > > piece of information (such as a person's name in an hCard)" > > If the names in the examples were consistent, they would help to reinforce the > > stated requirement. > > The names (ben ward and james levine) should be consistant with each other. > > Indeed. In addition, the whole reason the include-pattern was developed was > to NOT to have to repeat such text in the content of the document. > > Thus I've changed it to use the 'title' attribute instead, which is > simultaneously a less invasive / content-affecting requirement on the > author, and still available to assistive technologies (same citation in the > section, Clark, 2007). > > http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern#accessibility This is interesting now, because we have an empty anchor that's linking to more detailed information for the machine's benefit. I forsee some issues with this though. The title appears to be superfluous because there is no text on which the title can make itself visible, and content providers will have have to deal with issues relating to hiding the empty anchor elements, as has been expanded on at http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern Hang on, we've faced this kind of issue before. The FAQ, "Microformats provide a mechanism for marking up visible content. Any mechanism for embedding invisible or hidden content risks being considered spam" The empty anchor really can't be allowed as a design principle. What if the empty anchor idea is scrapped, so that humans can gain a benefit from this information too. If you want to link to the more detailed information, you could use James Levine Or some kind of notation could be used to indicate that there's more information available James Levine [more info] or James Levine [*] -- Paul Wilkins From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 6 19:17:37 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Tue Nov 6 19:18:01 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: <945190.74743.qm@web96005.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: "paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz" > The empty anchor really can't be allowed as a design principle. What if the empty anchor idea is scrapped, so that humans can gain a benefit from this information too. > > If you want to link to the more detailed information, you could use > James Levine > > Or some kind of notation could be used to indicate that there's more information available > James Levine [more info] > or > James Levine [*] And now that my brain has caught up with my fingers, that last example was supposed to be James Levine [*] -- Paul Wilkins _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From Kaz at t-tec.com.au Tue Nov 6 19:20:31 2007 From: Kaz at t-tec.com.au (Katrina) Date: Tue Nov 6 19:19:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat Message-ID: <47312EFF.6010705@t-tec.com.au> Gday, I would like to ask a few questions about the adr microformat and I really hope I am in the correct place. I am so sorry if I am not. I am trying to learn about microformats, and so far so good. Q1. I have an address I would like to mark up as an adr. Now the problem that I think I am having with this address is that it has a country, a state, a city, a suburb, a postcode, and a street address. As far as I know, adr only has region and locality. Possible markup example:
Street Address
--> suburb?
-- > state?
If locality equates to suburb, and region equates to state, how do I add the city? Can I use extended address or is that reserved for a more refined-grain part of the address than street-address, eg. office number/building? Q2. As far as I am aware, good typography insists that colons are flush against the word they succeed, and are also styled in the same manner. Is it OK to have colons in the ? For example:
Fax: +60 3 7880 7978
Thanks!! Kat From quickredfox at neuenode.com Tue Nov 6 19:57:06 2007 From: quickredfox at neuenode.com (Francois Lafortune) Date: Tue Nov 6 19:57:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: <47312EFF.6010705@t-tec.com.au> References: <47312EFF.6010705@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: <3B85FFF9-3D06-412D-93A0-0438BD4BCCBE@neuenode.com> A1. I would propose "locality" for the suburb maybe and if you must specify city AND suburb in different tags then I dont see anything wrong with that, they are both class names and from the xhtml standpoint they can be re-used. Or, you could stick the suburb in with the city (which I think goes better with some microformat parsers) separated by a coma unless you really need to have them in separate tags. I don't see anything wrong with that but I'm no guru. A2.1. it is OK to have colons in spans but the colons would be included by some parsers as being part of the content. putting your colon outside the span wont add an extra space if node right. A2.2 AKA: Personal Vendetta I hate the way microformats are going through that whole adolescence phase and bringing back major disease like acute divitus and severe spanitis, My personal take on this would be something the likes of:
Street Address
111 some street
suite 101
City
Cooltown
Suburbia
Postal Code
H0H 0H0
Region
OG
Country
Canada
Fax:
+1-111-111-1111
Work:
+2-222-222-2222
we have markup language people... dont be affraid to use it! And a plus, it adresses you colon issues pretty well I would say. On 6-Nov-07, at 10:20 PM, Katrina wrote: > Gday, > > I would like to ask a few questions about the adr microformat and I > really hope I am in the correct place. I am so sorry if I am not. > > I am trying to learn about microformats, and so far so good. > > > Q1. I have an address I would like to mark up as an adr. Now the > problem that I think I am having with this address is that it has a > country, a state, a city, a suburb, a postcode, and a street address. > > As far as I know, adr only has region and locality. > > Possible markup example: >
Street Address
>
>
--> suburb? >
>
-- > state? >
>
> > If locality equates to suburb, and region equates to state, how do > I add the city? Can I use extended address or is that reserved for > a more refined-grain part of the address than street-address, eg. > office number/building? > > > Q2. As far as I am aware, good typography insists that colons are > flush against the word they succeed, and are also styled in the > same manner. Is it OK to have colons in the ? > > For example: >
Fax: class="value">+60 3 7880 7978
> > Thanks!! > > Kat > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss _______________________________________ -- The QuickRedFox loops over the lazy eval -- Francois Lafortune ( quickredfox@neuenode.com From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Nov 6 21:30:00 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Nov 6 21:28:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: <47312EFF.6010705@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/6/07 7:20 PM, "Katrina" wrote: > Gday, > > I would like to ask a few questions about the adr microformat and I > really hope I am in the correct place. I am so sorry if I am not. > > I am trying to learn about microformats, and so far so good. > > > Q1. I have an address I would like to mark up as an adr. Now the problem > that I think I am having with this address is that it has a country, a > state, a city, a suburb, a postcode, and a street address. > > As far as I know, adr only has region and locality. > > Possible markup example: >
Street Address
>
>
--> suburb? >
>
-- > state? >
>
> > If locality equates to suburb, It doesn't. locality equates to city. this has been true in common vCard implementations for many years. > Q2. As far as I am aware, good typography insists that colons are flush > against the word they succeed, and are also styled in the same manner. > Is it OK to have colons in the ? There is no need to put the colons in the spans in order to have them flush against the word they succeed. inline markup must not add extra space or interrupt the typography (e.g. cause a line/word break) unless styled to do so. > For example: >
Fax: class="value">+60 3 7880 7978
Instead:
Fax: +60 3 7880 7978
Thanks, Tantek From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Nov 6 21:36:00 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Nov 6 21:34:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: <3B85FFF9-3D06-412D-93A0-0438BD4BCCBE@neuenode.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/07 7:57 PM, "Francois Lafortune" wrote: > A1. I would propose "locality" for the suburb maybe and if you must > specify city AND suburb in different tags then I dont see anything > wrong with that, they are both class names and from the xhtml > standpoint they can be re-used. Or, you could stick the suburb in > with the city (which I think goes better with some microformat > parsers) separated by a coma unless you really need to have them in > separate tags. I don't see anything wrong with that but I'm no guru. locality is used for city in common vCard implementations. you could put suburb in extended-address if you wanted to. > A2.1. it is OK to have colons in spans but the colons would be > included by some parsers as being part of the content. putting your > colon outside the span wont add an extra space if node right. Correct. > A2.2 AKA: Personal Vendetta > > I hate the way microformats are going through that whole adolescence > phase and bringing back major disease like acute divitus and severe > spanitis, My personal take on this would be something the likes of: > >
>
>
Street Address
>
111 some street
>
suite 101
>
City
>
Cooltown
>
Suburbia
>
Postal Code
>
H0H 0H0
>
Region
>
OG
>
Country
>
Canada
>
>
>
Fax:
>
+1-111-111-1111
>
Work:
>
+2-222-222-2222
>
>
> > we have markup language people... dont be affraid to use it! be afraid to use it incorrectly however, as the above use of
does.
does not mean address. this is a common mistake. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Should_I_use_ADDRESS_for_hCards http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Why_is_adr_property_necessary homework assignment for incorrectly suggesting use of the
element and emotionally so ("hate the way microformats are going through that whole adolescence"): Please (re)read the HTML 4.01 specification from beginning to end. http://w3.org/TR/html401 Then follow-up with reading POSH resources: http://microformats.org/wiki/posh Thanks, Tantek From web.dizign at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 22:13:24 2007 From: web.dizign at gmail.com (Francois Lafortune) Date: Tue Nov 6 22:13:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7-Nov-07, at 12:36 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > > >> A2.2 AKA: Personal Vendetta >> >> I hate the way microformats are going through that whole adolescence >> phase and bringing back major disease like acute divitus and severe >> spanitis, My personal take on this would be something the likes of: >> >>
>>
>>
Street Address
>>
111 some street
>>
suite 101
>>
City
>>
Cooltown
>>
Suburbia
>>
Postal Code
>>
H0H 0H0
>>
Region
>>
OG
>>
Country
>>
Canada
>>
>>
>>
Fax:
>>
+1-111-111-1111
>>
Work:
>>
+2-222-222-2222
>>
>>
>> >> we have markup language people... dont be affraid to use it! > > be afraid to use it incorrectly however, as the above use of >
does. > Duely noted, thanks! > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Should_I_use_ADDRESS_for_hCards > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Why_is_adr_property_necessary > > homework assignment for incorrectly suggesting use of the
> element > and emotionally so ("hate the way microformats are going through > that whole > adolescence"): I will do my studies! But my emotional beef is more about seeing divs pop-up like it's a division party, and that sorta gets me roughed up... But again, I'm no authority on the subject.... you are. Seeing as you're someone I truly hold in hight regard, it would be great to know your thoughts on my usage of the definition lists for marking up a label => value set of data such as the adr and/or offer a cure for divitus and spanitis. > Please (re)read the HTML 4.01 specification from beginning to end. Beginning to end? Harsh a bit no? Ok... Will do! > > http://w3.org/TR/html401 > > Then follow-up with reading POSH resources: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/posh > I read that, I find the word "semantic" ambiguous in some contexts, just as "tabular data" may be ambiguous to some. > Thanks, > No, I thank YOU! > Tantek > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss _______________________________________ -- The QuickRedFox loops over the lazy eval -- Francois Lafortune ( quickredfox@neuenode.com ) From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 7 00:08:21 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Wed Nov 7 00:08:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat Message-ID: <146574.86101.qm@web96012.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Francois Lafortune > I will do my studies! But my emotional beef is more about seeing divs > pop-up like it's a division party, and that sorta gets me roughed > up... The divs and spans that you're worried about aren't mandetory, they're just there to help describe the block and inline nature of what you can code up. Rather than use examples marked up with heading and paragraph elements, the examples use the neutral div and span elements in order to not cast assumptions on how you wish to markup your code. For those playing at home, here's what the FAQ has to say about it. http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q._Why_do_the_examples_on_the_wiki_use_.3Cspan.3E_and_.3Cdiv.3E_for_nearly_everything.3F Q. Why do the examples on the wiki use and
for nearly everything? A. and
are generic elements in HTML. When you use microformats, you should pick the most specific semantic element available for the semantics you are trying to express. You might, for example, apply class="vevent" to a , or class="vcard" to a

. -- Paul Wilkins From web.dizign at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:21:58 2007 From: web.dizign at gmail.com (Francois Lafortune) Date: Wed Nov 7 07:22:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: <146574.86101.qm@web96012.mail.aue.yahoo.com> References: <146574.86101.qm@web96012.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you! On 7-Nov-07, at 3:08 AM, paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz wrote: > From: Francois Lafortune >> I will do my studies! But my emotional beef is more about seeing divs >> pop-up like it's a division party, and that sorta gets me roughed >> up... > > The divs and spans that you're worried about aren't mandetory, > they're just there to help describe the block and inline nature of > what you can code up. > > Rather than use examples marked up with heading and paragraph > elements, the examples use the neutral div and span elements in > order to not cast assumptions on how you wish to markup your code. > > For those playing at home, here's what the FAQ has to say about it. > > http://microformats.org/wiki/ > faq#Q._Why_do_the_examples_on_the_wiki_use_.3Cspan.3E_and_.3Cdiv. > 3E_for_nearly_everything.3F > > Q. Why do the examples on the wiki use and

for nearly > everything? > A. and
are generic elements in HTML. When you use > microformats, you should pick the most specific semantic element > available for the semantics you are trying to express. You might, > for example, apply class="vevent" to a , or class="vcard" to a >

. > > -- > Paul Wilkins > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss _______________________________________ -- The QuickRedFox loops over the lazy eval -- Francois Lafortune ( quickredfox@neuenode.com ) From james at howison.name Wed Nov 7 08:08:53 2007 From: james at howison.name (James Howison) Date: Wed Nov 7 08:08:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9937818F-F67B-448F-AD8A-BCA7CA3E577F@howison.name> On Nov 7, 2007, at 12:30 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 11/6/07 7:20 PM, "Katrina" wrote: > >> Gday, >> >> I would like to ask a few questions about the adr microformat and I >> really hope I am in the correct place. I am so sorry if I am not. >> >> I am trying to learn about microformats, and so far so good. >> >> >> Q1. I have an address I would like to mark up as an adr. Now the >> problem >> that I think I am having with this address is that it has a >> country, a >> state, a city, a suburb, a postcode, and a street address. >> >> As far as I know, adr only has region and locality. >> >> Possible markup example: >>

Street Address
>>
>>
--> suburb? >>
>>
-- > state? >>
>>
>> >> If locality equates to suburb, > > It doesn't. locality equates to city. this has been true in common > vCard > implementations for many years. Doesn't that depend on the local meaning of City vs Suburb? ie I think Suburb makes more sense for Australian cities, where the suburb is a more specific thing than the city. ie 'Sydney' in an address refers to a specific part of the whole geographical area more generally known as Sydney, I think it is just a few post-codes (2000, 2001, 2002?). eg Two Australian examples (from on the wiki) show this sense: http://www.australianit.news.com.au/contactus (Surrey Hills, NSW, 2010) http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/contactus (Sydney, 2000) - but that's the specific use of Sydney (as a 'suburb' of the greater metropolitan area, indicated by the post-codes). Perhaps similarly one wouldn't put 'New York' when one meant Queens, even though Queens is in some sense part of New York City, since New York in addresses refers specifically to Manhattan, right? That's what is done on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_New_York_City_Queens (Also why can't I see the hcard/adr markup when I view source of that wikipedia page, but Operator picks up the cards?) --J From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 7 11:10:46 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Wed Nov 7 11:10:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat Message-ID: <266485.89973.qm@web96004.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: James Howison > On Nov 7, 2007, at 12:30 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > It doesn't. locality equates to city. this has been true in common > > vCard > > implementations for many years. > > Doesn't that depend on the local meaning of City vs Suburb? ie I think > Suburb makes more sense for Australian cities, where the suburb is a > more specific thing than the city. ie 'Sydney' in an address refers > to a specific part of the whole geographical area more generally known > as Sydney, I think it is just a few post-codes (2000, 2001, 2002?). The properties for adr come directly from RFC 2426 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt Here is what RFC 2426 has to say on the matter. The structured type value corresponds, in sequence, to the post office box; the extended address; the street address; the locality (e.g., city); the region (e.g., state or province); the postal code; the country name. I suspect that the names locality and region were picked as internationally there are many ways or indicating an address. The locality doesn't have to be a city, that's just an example that's given in the quote. I'm surprised that this isn't fleshed out in greater detail on the adr page at http://microformats.org/wiki/adr How they can expected to be used is: extended-address - helpful info that may be required, such as Level 5, or Suite 203 street-address extended-address - helpful info that may be required, such as suburb locality - more specific than region region - more specific than country-name country-name In China for example, this is a possible address United Airlines C/D1 Unit, 15th Floor, Tower A, GATEWAY No.18 Xiaguangli, North Road, East Third Ring Chaoyang District Beijing 100027 China A possible structure there is extended-address extended-address extended-address street-name locality region postal-code country-name In America, the state is considered the region, with the locality being whatever helps to further narrow down to the street address itself, whether that be city, or principality, or suburb. If Queens, NY works best in that particular scenario, then go with that. Locality only means more local than region, nothing more. -- Paul Wilkins From Kaz at t-tec.com.au Wed Nov 7 15:24:18 2007 From: Kaz at t-tec.com.au (Katrina) Date: Wed Nov 7 15:24:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: <266485.89973.qm@web96004.mail.aue.yahoo.com> References: <266485.89973.qm@web96004.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47324922.5030804@t-tec.com.au> > > The properties for adr come directly from RFC 2426 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt > > Here is what RFC 2426 has to say on the matter. > > The structured type value corresponds, > in sequence, to the post office box; the extended address; the street > address; the locality (e.g., city); the region (e.g., state or > province); the postal code; the country name. > I suspect that the names locality and region were picked as internationally there are many ways or indicating an > address. The locality doesn't have to be a city, that's just an example that's given in the quote. > > How they can expected to be used is: > extended-address - helpful info that may be required, such as Level 5, or Suite 203 > street-address > extended-address - helpful info that may be required, such as suburb > > locality - more specific than region > region - more specific than country-name > > country-name The quote from RFC 2426 refers to 'the' locality and 'the' extended address, which to me, sounds like exactly one. Is it legitimate to have multiple localities or extended addresses? Sorry to be difficult and thank you so much for taking the time to answer !:) Kat From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 7 16:16:52 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Wed Nov 7 16:16:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat Message-ID: <555109.53436.qm@web96010.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Katrina > The quote from RFC 2426 refers to 'the' locality and 'the' extended > address, which to me, sounds like exactly one. > > Is it legitimate to have multiple localities or extended addresses? My bad there, sorry for the confusion Katrina. All properties are singular, so the China example would have more like following details and structure United Airlines C/D1 Unit, 15th Floor, Tower A, GATEWAY No.18 Xiaguangli, North Road, East Third Ring Chaoyang District Beijing 100027 China
United Airlines C/D1 Unit, 15th Floor
Tower A, GATEWAY No.18
Xiaguangli, North Road
East Third Ring Chaoyang District
Beijing 100027
China
-- Paul Wilkins From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 8 03:30:16 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Thu Nov 8 03:30:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat Message-ID: <604461.41012.qm@web96008.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Francois Lafortune > On 7-Nov-07, at 12:36 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > Then follow-up with reading POSH resources: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/posh > > I read that, I find the word "semantic" ambiguous in some contexts, > just as "tabular data" may be ambiguous to some. In summary, semantic is where you use the elements to provide as much correct meaning for their content as possible. It is the discussion of what is the correct meaning, where we get into the field of semantics. Semantics can be like a philosophy discussion, but about html instead rather than humans. I came across today what semantically beautiful code looks like. http://css-tricks.com/what-beautiful-html-code-looks-like/ Then there are some good presentations about semantic html. http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/09/elements-of-xhtml/ http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/news-events/archives/presentations/semantichtml.html And other resources that provide a good rundown of what's expected http://brainstormsandraves.com/articles/semantics/structure/ -- Paul Wilkins From tjameswhite at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 12:20:42 2007 From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White) Date: Thu Nov 8 12:20:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: <625825.75579.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was doing some research on the hResume page and noticed that the include pattern hadn't been updated. I've gone ahead and updated the page to reflect the updates to the include pattern. I have added a note with reference to the include-pattern and added an example above the example. Please review, correct or revert as necessary. ~ Tim tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tjameswhite at yahoo.com Thu Nov 8 12:51:00 2007 From: tjameswhite at yahoo.com (Tim White) Date: Thu Nov 8 12:51:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: <961189.40024.qm@web30811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sorry, forgot the reference link: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Experience ~ Tim tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Tim White To: Microformats Discuss Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 3:20:42 PM Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated I was doing some research on the hResume page and noticed that the include pattern hadn't been updated. I've gone ahead and updated the page to reflect the updates to the include pattern. I have added a note with reference to the include-pattern and added an example above the example. Please review, correct or revert as necessary. ~ Tim tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com">tjameswhite.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From microformats at kaply.com Thu Nov 8 14:23:31 2007 From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply) Date: Thu Nov 8 14:23:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] adr in Operator Message-ID: One more change I'm considering for Operator. Removing support for an adr by itself in the UI. Basically the problem is that unlike just about other microformat (except geo), there's really nothing good to display for adr in the UI (the address just looks silly). And because I try so hard to figure out an address to display, It causes performance problems. The reason I originally added adr support was a hack for hCards that had multiple addresses, but I have since fixed that so an hCard can have Google Maps as a nested menu that contains both addresses. So the question is this: Should I remove it completely since 99.9999% of adrs are in hCards? Or should I just make it not on the toolbar by default? Mike From Kaz at t-tec.com.au Thu Nov 8 14:36:05 2007 From: Kaz at t-tec.com.au (Katrina) Date: Thu Nov 8 14:36:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: <555109.53436.qm@web96010.mail.aue.yahoo.com> References: <555109.53436.qm@web96010.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47338F55.2070203@t-tec.com.au> paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz wrote: > From: Katrina >> The quote from RFC 2426 refers to 'the' locality and 'the' extended >> address, which to me, sounds like exactly one. >> >> Is it legitimate to have multiple localities or extended addresses? > > > My bad there, sorry for the confusion Katrina. > > All properties are singular, so the China example would have more like > following details and structure > > United Airlines C/D1 Unit, 15th Floor, > Tower A, GATEWAY No.18 > Xiaguangli, North Road, > East Third Ring Chaoyang District > Beijing 100027 > China > >
> United Airlines C/D1 Unit, 15th > Floor
> Tower A, GATEWAY No.18
> Xiaguangli, North Road
> East Third Ring Chaoyang District
> Beijing class="postal-code">100027
> China >
> Thanks! :) From mdagn at spraci.com Thu Nov 8 18:19:33 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Thu Nov 8 18:19:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] adr in Operator References: Message-ID: <000701c82276$f8673da0$116bacca@COMCEN> > One more change I'm considering for Operator. > > Removing support for an adr by itself in the UI. > > Basically the problem is that unlike just about other microformat > (except geo), there's really nothing good to display for adr in the UI > (the address just looks silly). And because I try so hard to figure > out an address to display, It causes performance problems. > > The reason I originally added adr support was a hack for hCards that > had multiple addresses, but I have since fixed that so an hCard can > have Google Maps as a nested menu that contains both addresses. > > So the question is this: > > Should I remove it completely since 99.9999% of adrs are in hCards? Or > should I just make it not on the toolbar by default? > I quite like being able to find adr in Operator... If it does cause performance problems maybe could it be an option where the default is not to show them? (or to still show them when wrapped in other microformats?) eg what about adr in location in hCalendar? - I've been suggesting to event promoters with their own websites that they could mark up their events in hCalendar + adr (or geo) and then submit their page for aggregation as an alternate way to add events to a listings website I run. For this purpose the city and country MUST be specified in a machine-readable way so that the events can be found when someone looks up their city or country. Sure they could wrap it in a hCard but don't think hCard is always appropriate for every type of address. Sure geo would probably be more reliable than dodgy text-matching on city and country names (I wish there was a standard for those!) but it is much easier to get someone to put in the name of a city or country than to convince them to spend extra time looking up the coordinates. Telling them to use geo for this becomes pointless if none of them bother to do it and having to do dodgy text matching on adr elements is a lot better than having to do it on a freeform text location (or worse - the description!) From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Fri Nov 9 11:48:55 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Fri Nov 9 11:49:01 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT Pattern Page Updated Message-ID: <330475.19210.qm@web96011.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Tim White > I was doing some research on the hResume page and noticed that the include pattern hadn't been updated. > I've gone ahead and updated the page to reflect the updates to the include pattern. > I have added a note with reference to the include-pattern and added an example above the example. > Please review, correct or revert as necessary. The only suggestion I'd have is to use a meaningful identifier. What is being included with the following line? It's really hard to tell. With the following: It's really easy to tell what's going on. I suggest that #j is changed to something more meaningful, like #pedro-name -- Paul Wilkins From dejan at majenca.com Fri Nov 9 12:16:40 2007 From: dejan at majenca.com (Dejan Kozina) Date: Fri Nov 9 12:14:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Newbie with an introduction and a question Message-ID: <4734C028.8070809@majenca.com> Hello list. I'm a freelance web/mobile developer and PHP coder in Trieste, Italy. After looking at microformats with interest for some time I've just started to test this stuff out in my recent work, mostly hCard. Am I correct in assuming that the Operator extension in debug mode is the nearest there is to a validator right now? I'm puzzled about some basic hCalendar stuff I've put into a page this week. The page is at http://www.monteanalogo.net/programma.htm. Operator does indeed recognize the embedded vevents and allows me to add them to Yahoo! Calendar using its actions; where it all goes wrong is trying to add an event to Google Calendar, where all I get is a 'Bad request'. It is Operator, Google or just my code? I've asked about that on the Evolt mailing list to no avail. Hope you'll be able to point me in the right direction, because the more I mess with all this microstuff, the more fun I'm having... Thanks in advance djn -- ----------------------------------------- Dejan Kozina Web design studio Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225 skype: dejankozina http://www.kozina.com/ - e-mail: dejan@kozina.com From thom at ts0.com Mon Nov 12 08:41:33 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Mon Nov 12 08:41:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Newbie with an introduction and a question In-Reply-To: <4734C028.8070809@majenca.com> References: <4734C028.8070809@majenca.com> Message-ID: <4738823D.90301@ts0.com> The text encoding is getting a bit messed up somewhere, this string seems to break google, %2C%20%C3%A8%20 Dejan Kozina wrote: > Hello list. > > I'm a freelance web/mobile developer and PHP coder in Trieste, Italy. > After looking at microformats with interest for some time I've just > started to test this stuff out in my recent work, mostly hCard. > > Am I correct in assuming that the Operator extension in debug mode is > the nearest there is to a validator right now? > > I'm puzzled about some basic hCalendar stuff I've put into a page this > week. The page is at http://www.monteanalogo.net/programma.htm. Operator > does indeed recognize the embedded vevents and allows me to add them to > Yahoo! Calendar using its actions; where it all goes wrong is trying to > add an event to Google Calendar, where all I get is a 'Bad request'. > It is Operator, Google or just my code? I've asked about that on the > Evolt mailing list to no avail. > > Hope you'll be able to point me in the right direction, because the more > I mess with all this microstuff, the more fun I'm having... > > Thanks in advance > > djn > > > > From dejan at majenca.com Mon Nov 12 18:41:12 2007 From: dejan at majenca.com (Dejan Kozina) Date: Mon Nov 12 18:38:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Newbie with an introduction and a question In-Reply-To: <4738823D.90301@ts0.com> References: <4734C028.8070809@majenca.com> <4738823D.90301@ts0.com> Message-ID: <47390EC8.6030605@majenca.com> I think I've nailed it (with the help of some URL mangling). Google Calendar suddenly started to behave when I pared down the urlencoded GET query to 779 ASCII characters. I think I've just hit a ceiling up there in Googleland. Moving the closing tag for the description part forward to encompass approx. 400 characters of unencoded text does the trick. Thanks a lot. djn Thom Shannon wrote: > The text encoding is getting a bit messed up somewhere, this string > seems to break google, %2C%20%C3%A8%20 > -- ----------------------------------------- Dejan Kozina Web design studio Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225 skype: dejankozina http://www.kozina.com/ - e-mail: dejan@kozina.com From dennis.petersen at computerbild.de Tue Nov 13 08:33:28 2007 From: dennis.petersen at computerbild.de (Dennis Petersen) Date: Tue Nov 13 08:33:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard Message-ID: Hi, We are currently starting to implement various micro formats into our site. One example for a site full of vcards is http://www.computerbild.de/cb-Service-Herstelleradressen_465611.html. Everything seems to work fine with operator but when you open the page with an enabled firebug you get plenty of errors. I just want to check if we did anything wrong code wise. The microformats wiki says said that you should use "fn org" for Organization Contact Info. I don't really see why firebug has so many errors. Thanks for your help. Dennis Petersen From thom at ts0.com Tue Nov 13 10:10:19 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Tue Nov 13 10:10:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4739E88B.40703@ts0.com> the only error i see in firebug is due to some code expecting an element with an id of "navi_1_1_1" and that id doesn't exist Dennis Petersen wrote: > Hi, > > We are currently starting to implement various micro formats into our > site. One example for a site full of vcards is > http://www.computerbild.de/cb-Service-Herstelleradressen_465611.html. > Everything seems to work fine with operator but when you open the page > with an enabled firebug you get plenty of errors. I just want to check > if we did anything wrong code wise. The microformats wiki says said that > you should use "fn org" for Organization Contact Info. I don't really > see why firebug has so many errors. > Thanks for your help. > Dennis Petersen > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 13 10:27:47 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Tue Nov 13 10:28:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard Message-ID: <204318.47936.qm@web96001.mail.aue.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Dennis Petersen To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Sent: Wednesday, 14 November, 2007 5:33:28 AM Subject: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard Hi, We are currently starting to implement various micro formats into our site. One example for a site full of vcards is http://www.computerbild.de/cb-Service-Herstelleradressen_465611.html. Everything seems to work fine with operator but when you open the page with an enabled firebug you get plenty of errors. I just want to check if we did anything wrong code wise. The microformats wiki says said that you should use "fn org" for Organization Contact Info. I don't really see why firebug has so many errors. Thanks for your help. Dennis Petersen _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 13 10:38:47 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Tue Nov 13 10:38:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard Message-ID: <796108.27242.qm@web96010.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Dennis Petersen > We are currently starting to implement various micro formats into our > site. One example for a site full of vcards is > http://www.computerbild.de/cb-Service-Herstelleradressen_465611.html. > Everything seems to work fine with operator but when you open the page > with an enabled firebug you get plenty of errors. I just want to check > if we did anything wrong code wise. The microformats wiki says said that > you should use "fn org" for Organization Contact Info. I don't really > see why firebug has so many errors. It's not the fn org causing the trouble, as the errors from Firebug occurs on line 369. It appears to be hundreds of the same duplicate error that firebug is showing. I'd guess that Firebug is generating that same error over and over again, once for every microformat on the page. Here's a simplified view of the problem area.
3D Realms Entertainment
www.3drealms.com
Firebug says the error occurs on the closing div for adr. Testing show that the error occurs when the adr area is empty. -- Paul Wilkins From mdagn at spraci.com Tue Nov 13 18:25:09 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Tue Nov 13 18:25:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard References: <796108.27242.qm@web96010.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003901c82665$94890820$116bacca@COMCEN> >> site. One example for a site full of vcards is >> http://www.computerbild.de/cb-Service-Herstelleradressen_465611.html. > > It's not the fn org causing the trouble, as the errors from Firebug occurs > on line 369. > It appears to be hundreds of the same duplicate error that firebug is > showing. I'd guess that Firebug is generating that same error over and > over again, > once for every microformat on the page. > > Here's a simplified view of the problem area. > > > > > >
>
3D Realms Entertainment

>
> >
> 		>
> >
> 		> www.3drealms.com > >
> > Firebug says the error occurs on the closing div for adr. > Testing show that the error occurs when the adr area is empty. > yes ... probably the empty adr ...maybe user-entered data where some users might have left some of the fields blank? ... in the real world this would be very common From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 13 19:09:39 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Tue Nov 13 19:09:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard Message-ID: <405407.9127.qm@web96009.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Michael MD > yes ... probably the empty adr > ...maybe user-entered data where some users might have left some of the > fields blank? ... in the real world this would be very common Because it's very common in the real world, it would be appropriate to code around the situation then, by displaying the div only if there's information to be shown there. -- Paul Wilkins From dennis.petersen at computerbild.de Wed Nov 14 09:12:06 2007 From: dennis.petersen at computerbild.de (Dennis Petersen) Date: Wed Nov 14 09:12:26 2007 Subject: AW: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard References: <405407.9127.qm@web96009.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for your help. The empy tag was really the problem. We solved it with an if clause. The new version will be online soon. Dennis Petersen -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] Im Auftrag von paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. November 2007 04:10 An: Microformats Discuss Betreff: Re: [uf-discuss] problem with firebug and "fn org" in vcard From: Michael MD > yes ... probably the empty adr > ...maybe user-entered data where some users might have left some of the > fields blank? ... in the real world this would be very common Because it's very common in the real world, it would be appropriate to code around the situation then, by displaying the div only if there's information to be shown there. -- Paul Wilkins _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From jrrodgers at gmail.com Sat Nov 17 13:39:58 2007 From: jrrodgers at gmail.com (Jesse Rodgers) Date: Sat Nov 17 13:40:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] assess site content to identify patterns, is there a form? Message-ID: <88190c0f0711171339x7a0b3570h9f330cc06d7443ec@mail.gmail.com> Hi, With some of the grad work that has been going on looking at microformats, I was wondering if anyone has devised a process/form to assess web page content? I have been trying to figure exactly what information you need to collect and where it fits. It isn't exactly design patterns but more content patterns within the context of the page/site/domain/etc. What I think I am looking for is a formal (could stand up to academic scrutiny) process/method/template for: > *-examples Find examples on today's web of the the type of content you think needs a microformat. Document them with URLs. Document the schemas implied by the content examples. This is the action that helps follow principle 3, design for humans first, machines second ... adapt to current behaviors and usage patterns. Start by cloning the examples page and filling it out. Ideally someone has exactly what I am looking for documented somewhere so I can cite it ;) Thanks, Jesse From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Mon Nov 19 02:56:52 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Mon Nov 19 03:01:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Complete n00b: adr microformat References: <9937818F-F67B-448F-AD8A-BCA7CA3E577F@howison.name> Message-ID: James Howison wrote: > (Surrey Hills, NSW, 2010) I went to school in Surrey Hills, NSW. :-) Personally, I'd say:
Surrey Hills, Sydney
NSW 2010
Hopefully the title on the should not trigger the abbr-design- pattern, because "NSW" is more appropriate for printing on address labels. How do existing implementations handle the above example? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 12 days, 17:50.] USD/EUR Exchange Rate Graph http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/11/18/usd-eur/ From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 16:14:43 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Mon Nov 19 16:14:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: References: <9937818F-F67B-448F-AD8A-BCA7CA3E577F@howison.name> Message-ID: <21e770780711191614y43fe7ad7p353dd7d1267db69e@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/19, Toby A Inkster : >
Surrey Hills, Sydney
>
> NSW > 2010 >
> > Hopefully the title on the should not trigger the abbr-design- > pattern, because "NSW" is more appropriate for printing on address > labels. > > How do existing implementations handle the above example? --- implementations SHOULD not trigger the abbr-design-pattern because the class="region" is on a span, which doesn't carry the additional semantics. Since there is no additional classes on the abbr element, the REGION should be just "NSW" -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Nov 20 03:23:28 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Nov 20 03:21:42 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Complete n00b: adr microformat In-Reply-To: <21e770780711191614y43fe7ad7p353dd7d1267db69e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/07 4:14 PM, "Brian Suda" wrote: > 2007/11/19, Toby A Inkster : >>
Surrey Hills, Sydney
>>
>> NSW >> 2010 >>
>> >> Hopefully the title on the should not trigger the abbr-design- >> pattern, because "NSW" is more appropriate for printing on address >> labels. >> >> How do existing implementations handle the above example? > > --- implementations SHOULD not trigger the abbr-design-pattern because > the class="region" is on a span, which doesn't carry the additional > semantics. Since there is no additional classes on the abbr element, > the REGION should be just "NSW" I think it is safe to say MUST instead of SHOULD in the above paragraph, given that in following hCard parsing, no other interpretation is possible. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing Thanks, Tantek From nojorin at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 06:14:46 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Fri Nov 23 06:14:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using namespace Message-ID: Hello, I would like to suggest that microformats use namespace like the following example. home +1.415.555.1212 This example is just using @mf:scheme and @mf:term instead of @xhtml:class or @xhtml:rel. Therefore, this example is human readable and machine readable. And, by using namespace and a link to schema(@mf:scheme), This example is able to be valid by using validator and schema(http://microformats.org/2007/hcard.rnc). I think microformats need namespace to ensure interoperability. How do you think about the suggestion? -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 06:29:28 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Nov 23 06:29:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using namespace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23/11/2007, Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > Hello, > > I would like to suggest that microformats use namespace like the > following example. > > xmlns:mf="http://microformats.org/2007"> > > home > +1.415.555.1212 > > > > This example is just using @mf:scheme and @mf:term instead of > @xhtml:class or @xhtml:rel. > > Therefore, this example is human readable and machine readable. And, by using > namespace and a link to schema(@mf:scheme), This example is able to be > valid by using validator and > schema(http://microformats.org/2007/hcard.rnc). > > I think microformats need namespace to ensure interoperability. > > How do you think about the suggestion? You might like to take a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces for some of the reasons why we discourage their usage. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From thom at ts0.com Fri Nov 23 06:47:49 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Fri Nov 23 06:47:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using namespace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4746E815.5080402@ts0.com> One of the main drivers behind uf is that they build on existing tools and knowledge. Using existing html markup means people can use WYSIWYG tools to edit them and it also removes a small psychological for people who are comfortable with html but put off by such syntax. uf also aims to solve simple and common problems, like events and contact info. If you want more funtionality you can use things like eRDF. Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > Hello, > > I would like to suggest that microformats use namespace like the > following example. > > xmlns:mf="http://microformats.org/2007"> > > home > +1.415.555.1212 > > > > This example is just using @mf:scheme and @mf:term instead of > @xhtml:class or @xhtml:rel. > > Therefore, this example is human readable and machine readable. And, by using > namespace and a link to schema(@mf:scheme), This example is able to be > valid by using validator and > schema(http://microformats.org/2007/hcard.rnc). > > I think microformats need namespace to ensure interoperability. > > How do you think about the suggestion? > > From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Nov 23 07:32:26 2007 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Nov 23 07:33:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: using namespace References: Message-ID: Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > I think microformats need namespace to ensure interoperability. > How do you think about the suggestion? No, they shouldn't. Firstly, microformats are supposed to be easy to use and easy to parse. Introducing XML namespaces would complicate them. Secondly, they're supposed to use the existing semantic facilities in (X)HTML. Introducing namespaces will cause documents to fail (X)HTML DTD validation. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 20:27.] It'll be in the Last Place You Look http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/11/21/no2id/ From nojorin at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 17:57:08 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Fri Nov 23 17:57:11 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: using namespace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for your comments. I will reconsider my suggestion. Also, I will think about validation of microformats to ensure interoperability. Best regards, -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From jrrodgers at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 14:11:02 2007 From: jrrodgers at gmail.com (Jesse Rodgers) Date: Sat Nov 24 14:11:04 2007 Subject: context and quality (was Re: [uf-discuss] Re: using namespace) Message-ID: <88190c0f0711241411n246109fdq3ef2998d931fcced@mail.gmail.com> Hi, This conversation is interesting as it is related to my research for my msc. Has there been any discussion on the value of adding higher level context to microformats? In the case of hCal, say you have event listings for some organization. If you were to parse out the content of the site you would grab the events, yay. But you don't really know what those events are for beyond the URL of the site or maybe the site title. But is that consistent, do all sites title reflect the context of the page and how it relates to affiliated sites? If you had more formats on a page and you were looking at dozens of similar sources (say higher education sites), wouldn't a machine benefit from some extra information? Say on a uni home page I have some formats, I would like to know that it is a university and it is the central home page. If I go down to a faculty or school within that site I would want to know the relationship that information has. In a lot of cases faculties, schools, and departments are not in the main domain. Having a format at the top level that let a script know where the information is coming from and how it relates could be helpful. You could have class="schoolname faculty /organizationunit department" at a higher level. So on a Faculty of Science page at Waterloo you would have "UniversityofWaterloo Science Physics" Yes you could handle that in the meta tags and maybe that is the obvious answer... I haven't really thought this through but when you are dealing with massive and bizarre web spaces of higher education I can certainly see how some context would help assess the quality of the information. When you talk about namespaces it makes me think about that one part of the Semantic Web conversation of trusting the data and you need some context to help with the trust. The problem I am trying to solve is how to get some consistency and context in the HTML within sections of a larger web space that doesn't entirely live in the same domain. Jesse From nojorin at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 21:25:51 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Sat Nov 24 21:25:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema Message-ID: Hello, I would like to suggest microschema to improve interoperability of microformats. An example of microformats hcard is as follows: home +1.415.555.1212 The example is added "" to original hcard to declare using microschema. A microschema for the example above is as follows: tel type pref work home voice fax msg cell pager bbs modem car isdn video value (\+|\-|\.|[0-9]+)+ microschema http://microformats.org/2007/hcard.rng Anybody can confirm the validation of the example above by using Jing. I think microschema can improve the interoperability of microformats. How do you think about my suggestion? Best regards, -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sat Nov 24 23:59:13 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sat Nov 24 23:57:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/24/07 9:25 PM, "Tatsuya Noyori" wrote: > I would like to suggest microschema to improve interoperability of > microformats. Hi Tatsuya, There are two general areas of problems that your suggestion. The first is, what is the real world interoperability problem that you are trying to solve? Do you have test cases that have been demonstrated to fail in specific implementations? Do you have analysis that demonstrates that such problems stem from a lack of an explicit typed schema? Lacking that, it is not logical to conclude that a schema (micro or otherwise) would help improve interoperability. The second problem is that in practice, explicit schemas do not represent all (often not even most) of the semantics of a specific format. For example, the HTML4 DTDs contain a mere fraction of the constraints and semantics expressed by the HTML4 specification. A validator that only checks the rules expressed in the HTML DTD will fail to check numerous assertions and requirements made in the specification itself. This is the schema incompleteness problem. In short, having a set of rules from a framework (such as those expressed by a schema like a DTD) is not only in practice insufficient, but serves to give a false sense of completeness of description. Thus with microformats we eschew trying to solve the general schema problem (others are trying much harder for much longer on that problem - e.g. XML Schema etc., and failing in practice - i.e. usage on the Web) for simple dictionaries instead. There has been some value demonstrated in some scenarios (e.g. reading microformats into an RDF store, either directly or thru a GRDDL transform) to at least disambiguate the use of vocabulary, and back the terms used with URLs. Thus we have XMDP (XHTML Meta Data Profiles) which is sufficient to define terms and provide a URL for each. Thanks, Tantek From nojorin at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 01:15:27 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Sun Nov 25 01:15:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tantek, Thank you for your questions and comments. I think the following example is valid. home +1.415.555.1212 But, I am not sure whether the following examples are valid. HOME +1.415.555.1212 --- home +1.415.555.1212 ---
home
+1.415.555.1212
Are these examples valid? I am not sure. This is the problem that I would like to solve. And, the aim of microschema is not to validate whole XML but to validate a part of XML. The way of the validation is as follows: 1. search 2. retrieve the parent element of this and the child elements of the parent element. 3. retrieve the schema linked to "......". 4. validate the xml retrieved by the schema retrieved. I think, if microformats use microschema, the interoperability of microformats will be improved. Best regards, -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sun Nov 25 02:43:48 2007 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sun Nov 25 02:43:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 25, 2007 12:25 AM, Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > > > home > +1.415.555.1212 > > > The example is added " href="http://microformats.org/2007/hcard.rng" />" to original hcard to > declare using microschema. LINK is only valid inside of HEAD, not BODY so this is invalid (X)HTML [1]. Regards, etc... [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/links.html#h-12.3 -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From nojorin at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 03:20:38 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Sun Nov 25 03:20:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello David, Thank you for your comments. I revised the following example. home +1.415.555.1212 I changed to . Is this correct? -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From philip.tellis at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 03:34:20 2007 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Sun Nov 25 03:34:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> On 25/11/2007, Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > I changed to . Is this correct? AFAIK, tags need some text inside. -- hello world From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 03:35:24 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Nov 25 03:35:27 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780711250335w69e1a07if518fc8be3c343@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/25, Tatsuya Noyori : > I changed to . Is this correct? --- there is another option. In HTML the element allows for a profile attribute. This profile attribute is a list of URLs that further define terms in the page. We have created an XMDP document to describe an hCard. http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard As for your examples, in the prose of the specification, we state that the terms are case-specific because CSS is case-specific, so class='tel" is valid, but class="TeL" is not. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues 2005-07-23 raised by DanConnolly Q. Are class names case sensitive or not? hcard says "If names in the source schema are case-insensitive, then use an all lowercase equivalent." A: ACCEPTED FAQ. Class names are case sensitive per the HTML4 specification. Hence hCard explicitly specifies the case of class name to use for source schema names that are case-insensitive. The values: Home, home, and HOME are all valid: from: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-faq Is the list of possible types for an ADR and TEL case sensitive? No, enumerated values are case-INsensitive, therefore Home, home, HOME, etc are all equivalent I hope this helps, much of the automated schema parsing is solved in text in the spec not in a format document. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From nojorin at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 04:37:38 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Sun Nov 25 04:37:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: <21e770780711250335w69e1a07if518fc8be3c343@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780711250335w69e1a07if518fc8be3c343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for your help. I understand a little. I will see the details. Also, I reconsider my suggestion. -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Sun Nov 25 09:56:59 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Sun Nov 25 09:57:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> On 25 Nov 2007, at 11:34, Philip Tellis wrote: > On 25/11/2007, Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > >> I changed to . Is this correct? > > AFAIK, tags need some text inside. Well, to be valid an Anchor needs to be explicitly closed, since self- closing cannot be used in HTML. Inner text _can_ be omitted, but until we've got some more feedback on the assistive technology implications I'd consider it ill advisable. And yes, such feedback is in the works following the include-pattern update. Ben From glenn.jones at madgex.com Sun Nov 25 10:09:42 2007 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Sun Nov 25 10:06:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract - new microformats parser Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> Hi All I have being work hard on a new microformats parser (ufXtract) to help explore the real world issues of creating portable social networks. Although I have previously designed a number spiders that can find the most common hCard and XFN structures, this is my first full blown parser. It has been built from the ground up to take configuration objects which allow the parsing of different microformats or POSH patterns. It was important that I could parse more general patterns such as the joint hCard-XFN being promoted for use with friend's lists. http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract/ After some further testing I am going to start to produce a number of portable social network demo's and posts. This should also provide others with experimental API's. By sharing this early work I hope in some way to add to the important technical and architectural discussions that are taking place. I have already added hCard-XFN, rel="me", rel="next" and hAtom to the parser. These are the four cornerstone microformats/patterns required to gather profile and content from other social networks. Although for technical/speed reasons ufXtract is currently only parsing the hEntry sub-element of hAtom. The component also contains extendable output options, so far, I have built a simple text format for debugging, JSON and XML for building services. For the more technically minded ufXtract is a .net component written in c#. It uses a combination of DOM structures and xPaths. It can typically parse a page in 50-200ms. At the moment, I am building a test suite to fine tune the components' compliancy. It still has some small issues with most of the compound microformats, which I am trying to address. If you have any comments or want to point out any issues, please give me as much feedback as possible. Thanks Glenn Jones www.glennjones.net From lists at allinthehead.com Sun Nov 25 11:20:47 2007 From: lists at allinthehead.com (Drew McLellan) Date: Sun Nov 25 11:20:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract - new microformats parser In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <59348F70-F1E4-40D2-828F-42EC5139348C@allinthehead.com> On 25 Nov 2007, at 18:09, Glenn Jones wrote: > http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract/ Great work, Glenn! drew. From gl at brixlogic.com Sun Nov 25 16:58:40 2007 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Sun Nov 25 17:02:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract - new microformats parser In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <474A1A40.60409@brixlogic.com> Glenn Jones wrote: > It has been built from the ground up to take configuration > objects which allow the parsing of different microformats or POSH > patterns. Great job Glenn, I was wondering what the configuration objects look like. Do you use a grammar for each uf expressed? Thank you, Guillaume From karl at w3.org Sun Nov 25 19:30:31 2007 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Sun Nov 25 19:30:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using namespace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19F077C4-D0BD-47E4-8B08-8872CB999B89@w3.org> Le 23 nov. 2007 ? 23:14, Tatsuya Noyori a ?crit : > I would like to suggest that microformats use namespace like the > following example. > I think microformats need namespace to ensure interoperability. You can use RDFa, that will make it possible http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/ RDFa Bookmarklet http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/rdfa-bookmarklet/ RDFa Extractor http://torrez.us/rdfa/ RDFa Implementations http://rdfa.info/rdfa-implementations/ -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 19:32:34 2007 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Sun Nov 25 19:32:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract - new microformats parser In-Reply-To: <474A1A40.60409@brixlogic.com> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> <474A1A40.60409@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: Awesome work, Glenn. I like the way results are return (specially in XML, for server-side). BUT... I just tested it on my blog and I think there might be an issue with charsets different than utf-8. I'm using iso-8859-1, by the way. http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fandr3.net%2Fblog&format=hcard&output=xml&callback= Cheers, Andr? Lu?s ps: it might be my problem, but still, thought I'd let you know. Parsers should be as robust as possible, right? hehe On Nov 26, 2007 12:58 AM, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Glenn Jones wrote: > > It has been built from the ground up to take configuration > > objects which allow the parsing of different microformats or POSH > > patterns. > Great job Glenn, > I was wondering what the configuration objects look like. Do you use a > grammar for each uf expressed? > Thank you, > Guillaume > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From glenn.jones at madgex.com Mon Nov 26 04:58:13 2007 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Mon Nov 26 04:54:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract - new microformats parser In-Reply-To: <474A1A40.60409@brixlogic.com> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> <474A1A40.60409@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01584A9E@MOBY.Clarence.local> Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > I was wondering what the configuration objects look like. Do you use a grammar for each uf expressed? They are c# collections. The plan is that once I have tuned the components compliancy, I will add Xml serialisation. This will mean that anyone will be able to defined their own POSH pattern or test new uf ideas. I believe this is similar to how Michael Kaply used JavaScript objects to defind microformats in Operator. Take a look at hAtom.js on http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator-user-scripts/. The Xml from a ufXtract configuration objects should look like: geo Location constructed of latitude and longitude geo This are more complex in real life, but should give you an idea. You can not define everything this way, there are some rules like hCard implied 'n' optimization which cannot be describe with this type of schemea. That said it covers most cases without having to add new hardcoded rules to the parser. Glenn Jones www.glennjones.net From nojorin at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 04:57:52 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Mon Nov 26 04:57:55 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: <004d01c82fe6$948002e0$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <004d01c82fe6$948002e0$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: Hello Michael, Jing is an XML validator. http://www.thaiopensource.com/relaxng/jing.html > what is "Jing"? > > I'm curious if there is some kind of new tool out there related to > Microformats -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From glenn.jones at madgex.com Mon Nov 26 05:08:33 2007 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Mon Nov 26 05:05:05 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract - new microformats parser In-Reply-To: References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local><474A1A40.60409@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01584AB3@MOBY.Clarence.local> Andr? Lu?s: wrote >I just tested it on my blog and I think there might be an issue with charsets different than utf-8. I'm using iso-8859-1, by the way. Thanks for the feedback, this a classic .net text handling issue, it hates anything that's not in utf-8. I will try and fix it ASAP Glenn Jones www.glennjones.net From nojorin at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 05:07:54 2007 From: nojorin at gmail.com (Tatsuya Noyori) Date: Mon Nov 26 05:07:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: Hello Ben, Is this correct? hcard microschema 2007/11/26, Ben Ward : > On 25 Nov 2007, at 11:34, Philip Tellis wrote: > > On 25/11/2007, Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > > > >> I changed to . Is this correct? > > > > AFAIK, tags need some text inside. > > Well, to be valid an Anchor needs to be explicitly closed, since self- > closing cannot be used in HTML. Inner text _can_ be omitted, but > until we've got some more feedback on the assistive technology > implications I'd consider it ill advisable. And yes, such feedback is > in the works following the include-pattern update. > > Ben -- Tatsuya Noyori (^o^)/ From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Nov 26 07:21:13 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Nov 26 07:21:51 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] using microschema In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: On 26 Nov 2007, at 13:07, Tatsuya Noyori wrote: > Is this correct? > > href="http://microformats.org/2007/hcard.rng">hcard microschema That would be valid, but of course you now have unwelcome content added to the page. I urge you to step back, take in the responses already made elsewhere in the thread (particularly regarding HTML profiles). You need to have a problem to solve before you focus on some sort of solution. You've still not described a problem that this would solve. If there's a problem with the way microformats are currently implemented then we absolutely need to know about it, but so far the namespaceless, schemaless system we're using seems to be working out fine. But if that's not the case, please highlight the problem. Additionally, and I mean this more generally, everyone proposing anything into syntax must remember that microformats operate in HTML, not just XHTML. Any solution dependent on XML, such as self-closing elements which are not self-closing in HTML4, is not appropriate for microformats. Ben From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Nov 26 07:42:36 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Nov 26 07:44:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=91XHTML=92_references_to_=91HTML?= =?windows-1252?q?=92?= Message-ID: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> Since microformats are published in both HTML and XHTML, I think we need to tidy up our references on the Wiki. Again this week we've had an ? admittedly premature ? suggestion of new syntax which is XHTML only (). That proposal has a few problems as have been discussed, but I think we should fix the Wiki to not give the wrong impression about our use of XHTML in the first place. This is not about ?XHTML vs. HTML?. I don't care which you prefer to use. This is about making clear that microformats are an HTML technology, not an exclusively XHTML technology. ?HTML? implies compatibility with XHTML, ?XHTML? does not imply compatibility with HTML. I'd like us to update the wiki to make all references to ?XHTML? and ?X/HTML? or ?(X)HTML? into clear ?HTML?. Again, ?HTML? implies ?XHTML?, so there's no need to use clumsy amalgamations in regular text. The first mention of HTML on the Wiki front-page should be updated to make clear that ?When we say HTML we refer to both HTML and XHTML syntaxes?. For all intents and purposes in microformat development and publication, there is no difference. Does this seem worthwhile? Ben From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Mon Nov 26 07:55:04 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Mon Nov 26 07:55:08 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_=91XHTML=92_references_to_=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2007 3:42 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > This is about making clear that microformats are an HTML technology, > not an exclusively XHTML technology. 'HTML' implies compatibility > with XHTML, 'XHTML' does not imply compatibility with HTML. It sounds like a solid idea to me, but I'd really worry that it would be unclear that we mean 'HTML and XHTML'. Is (X)HTML too unwieldy to be the global replacement? -Ciaran McNulty From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 08:02:03 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Mon Nov 26 08:02:06 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_=91XHTML=92_references_to_=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e770780711260802k7e80eff2sa898155b16f84eed@mail.gmail.com> 2007/11/26, Ben Ward : > This is about making clear that microformats are an HTML technology, > not an exclusively XHTML technology. 'HTML' implies compatibility > with XHTML, 'XHTML' does not imply compatibility with HTML. --- i'm not sure HTML does imply compatibility with XHTML. HTML you can be sloppy and not close tags, that is not XHTML compatible. Then HTML5 is not following the SGML rules, so somethings in HTML5 will NOT be valid XHTML no matter how you slice it. (but that is off topic for this thread) > Does this seem worthwhile? --- i do agreed that we should somehow stress that microformats are design for HTML4 and up, this will include HTML5, XHTML, et al. Even microformats embedded in RSS feeds. So anything to clarify the wiki that this is NOT an XHTML only technology is a good idea. How should we proceed? maybe list a few example changes here, discuss the rewording, Then start editing the wiki, when we have some consensus? -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Nov 26 08:09:14 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Nov 26 08:09:21 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_=91XHTML=92_references_to_=91H?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?TML=92?= In-Reply-To: References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <284D6E45-1D55-48F0-8693-1A43C13ED027@ben-ward.co.uk> On 26 Nov 2007, at 15:55, Ciaran McNulty wrote: > Is (X)HTML too unwieldy to > be the global replacement? I feel that ?(X)HTML? or ?X/HTML? in every instance would read clumsily and uglify the text. It would be irritating to read an entire document where every instance of a familiar and legible abbreviation was peppered with parenthesis. I proposed having a single ?HTML and XHTML? definition on the microformats wiki front page, but it would be reasonable to say that the _first_ mention of HTML on every wiki page should say ?HTML and XHTML? or ?HTML or XHTML? as appropriate. Having the first instance expanded is good practice for abbreviations, so it would make sense to expand the first ?HTML and XHTML? and use ?HTML? thereafter. How's that? Ben From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 08:10:15 2007 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Mon Nov 26 08:10:22 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_=91XHTML=92_references_to_=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: +1. I agree with the concern. I sat on a presentation where the speaker spoke of microformats as if they were xhtml-only. I know the POSH concept is there to prevent this confusion, but apparently, it's not enough, Is it? Maybe POS(X)H doesn't seem to cut it, does it? -- Andr? Lu?s On Nov 26, 2007 3:55 PM, Ciaran McNulty wrote: > On Nov 26, 2007 3:42 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > > This is about making clear that microformats are an HTML technology, > > not an exclusively XHTML technology. 'HTML' implies compatibility > > with XHTML, 'XHTML' does not imply compatibility with HTML. > > It sounds like a solid idea to me, but I'd really worry that it would > be unclear that we mean 'HTML and XHTML'. Is (X)HTML too unwieldy to > be the global replacement? > > -Ciaran McNulty > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Nov 26 08:38:24 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Nov 26 08:39:07 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_=91XHTML=92_references_to_=91H?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?TML=92?= In-Reply-To: <21e770780711260802k7e80eff2sa898155b16f84eed@mail.gmail.com> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> <21e770780711260802k7e80eff2sa898155b16f84eed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B92C812-672F-48A3-872C-0E2F35D2E4C3@ben-ward.co.uk> On 26 Nov 2007, at 16:02, Brian Suda wrote: > 2007/11/26, Ben Ward : >> This is about making clear that microformats are an HTML technology, >> not an exclusively XHTML technology. 'HTML' implies compatibility >> with XHTML, 'XHTML' does not imply compatibility with HTML. > > --- i'm not sure HTML does imply compatibility with XHTML. HTML you > can be sloppy and not close tags, that is not XHTML compatible. Then > HTML5 is not following the SGML rules, so somethings in HTML5 will NOT > be valid XHTML no matter how you slice it. (but that is off topic for > this thread) I mean that in the context of using the microformats syntax, not of the HTML itself. In terms that XHTML is a stricter syntax of HTML, therefore HTML is the lower common denominator than XHTML. You can use the same microformats syntax within either the liberal parsing rules of HTML or the strict rules of XHTML. Referring to HTML in place of ?HTML or XHTML? does not imply anything about a publisher's usage of HTML. If they are using XHTML then they will understand the addition syntax rules that must be adhered to. However, referring to XHTML where we mean ?HTML or XHTML? implies that the publisher _must_ adhere to the stricter rules, or implies to a parser that it can depend on them. Andr? Lu?s: > I agree with the concern. I sat on a presentation where the speaker > spoke of microformats as if they were xhtml-only. I know the POSH > concept is there to prevent this confusion, but apparently, it's not > enough, Is it? Maybe POS(X)H doesn't seem to cut it, does it? I'm not sure that ?POSH? has made anything less confusing to anyone. As far as communication goes, this is definitely a separate issue. Ben From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Nov 26 10:28:57 2007 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Nov 26 10:29:03 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufXtract - new microformats parser In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01584A9E@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0152A40A@MOBY.Clarence.local> <474A1A40.60409@brixlogic.com> <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01584A9E@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <474B1069.60903@brixlogic.com> Thanks Glenn, I wonder what you and others think about the following idea. Since one of your output mechanism is XML, I thought an idea might be to use XML schema (with possibly uf-specific appinfo annotations/documentation where relevant) to declare each microformat, instead of serialized C# collection in a bespoke syntax or a new microschema syntax (see separate thread). Granted, not everything can be expressed in the XSD (just like not everything can be expressed in serialized C# collections), but a lot can, and it might be valuable to developers who want to do microformat processing via classes generated from the XSD, instead of via DOM/XPath. What do people think? what am I missing? Thanks, Guillaume From hober0 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 11:28:15 2007 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Mon Nov 26 11:28:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: =?utf-8?b?4oCYWEhUTUzigJk=?= references to =?utf-8?b?4oCYSFRNTOKAmQ==?= References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: Ben Ward wrote: > I'd like us to update the wiki to make all references to ?XHTML? and > ?X/HTML? or ?(X)HTML? into clear ?HTML?[...] Does this seem worthwhile? I'm all for it. I'd love to take this even further, and s/XHTML/HTML/ in XMDP and XFN, but those ships have sailed. Ted -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Mon Nov 26 11:49:09 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Mon Nov 26 11:49:12 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Re:_=91XH?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?TML=92_references_to_=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2007 8:28 AM, Edward O'Connor wrote: > Ben Ward wrote: > > > I'd like us to update the wiki to make all references to 'XHTML' and > > 'X/HTML' or '(X)HTML' into clear 'HTML'[...] Does this seem worthwhile? > > I'm all for it. I'd love to take this even further, and s/XHTML/HTML/ in > XMDP and XFN, but those ships have sailed. The only concern that I'd have is that visitors to the site are likely to think that microformats are an older less worthwhile idea because of all the HTML references. First impressions can be important, so how can that be dealt with? -- Paul Wilkins From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Nov 26 13:10:10 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Nov 26 13:10:16 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Re:_=91XHTML=92_references_to_?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D2D7E14-5AFB-401E-9E15-BF14B8503591@ben-ward.co.uk> On 26 Nov 2007, at 19:49, Paul Wilkins wrote: > On Nov 27, 2007 8:28 AM, Edward O'Connor wrote: >> Ben Ward wrote: >> >>> I'd like us to update the wiki to make all references to 'XHTML' and >>> 'X/HTML' or '(X)HTML' into clear 'HTML'[...] Does this seem >>> worthwhile? >> >> I'm all for it. I'd love to take this even further, and s/XHTML/ >> HTML/ in >> XMDP and XFN, but those ships have sailed. > > The only concern that I'd have is that visitors to the site are likely > to think that microformats are an older less worthwhile idea because > of all the HTML references. First impressions can be important, so how > can that be dealt with? By mentioning ?XHTML and HTML? in each first instance, we make clear that both flavours are compatible, whilst using ?HTML? there on reads as a cleaner abbreviation. Ben From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 13:21:50 2007 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Mon Nov 26 13:22:03 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Re:_=91XH?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?TML=92_references_to_=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: <2D2D7E14-5AFB-401E-9E15-BF14B8503591@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D2D7E14-5AFB-401E-9E15-BF14B8503591@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: Here's an idea... since that would involve altering every page with xhtml in them anyway, why not go one step further and in the first reference to XHTML change it to "HTML or XHTML" with a link to an explanatory page? Stating that ufs work on both worlds. -- Andr? On Nov 26, 2007 9:10 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > By mentioning 'XHTML and HTML' in each first instance, we make clear > that both flavours are compatible, whilst using 'HTML' there on reads > as a cleaner abbreviation. > > Ben From m at klml.de Mon Nov 26 13:55:57 2007 From: m at klml.de (Klaus Mueller) Date: Mon Nov 26 13:56:02 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki order? Message-ID: <474B40ED.2090800@klml.de> Hi folks, I like microformats and I like wikis;) So I have a few questions about the wiki, which I didn't found in the wiki or the mailing archive. I would expand the how-to-play article. * You don't use Mediawiki Categories. Why? I dont't want to chance this rule, I only want to explain it * Is it OK to use more templates? ** one for different language versions of an Article, like the interwiki concept ** "buttons" or boxes for the status of the site (standard, draft, discuss) * can we use interwiki links to Wikipedia ( eg [[wp:Baltimore]]) * should we use more the project-namespace? Some sides like how-to-play could be there? greetz Klaus klml aka VanGore From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Nov 26 14:01:19 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Nov 26 14:01:29 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Re:_=91XHTML=92_references_to_?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D2D7E14-5AFB-401E-9E15-BF14B8503591@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <4EE30802-E40C-4D25-8869-9D1592A2B220@ben-ward.co.uk> On 26 Nov 2007, at 21:21, Andr? Lu?s wrote: > Here's an idea... since that would involve altering every page with > xhtml in them anyway, why not go one step further and in the first > reference to XHTML change it to "HTML or XHTML" with a link to an > explanatory page? Stating that ufs work on both worlds. We could, but does it need greater explanation than ?HTML or XHTML?. What more is there to say? From gebser at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 26 14:57:43 2007 From: gebser at speakeasy.net (ken) Date: Mon Nov 26 14:57:54 2007 Subject: calendar (and other) items aren't always tidy (was: Re: [uf-discuss] using microschema) In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> On 11/26/2007 10:21 AM Ben Ward wrote: > .... > > Additionally, and I mean this more generally, everyone proposing > anything into syntax must remember that microformats operate in HTML, > not just XHTML. Any solution dependent on XML, such as self-closing > elements which are not self-closing in HTML4, is not appropriate for > microformats. The idea of a semantic web is absolutely cool and I'm really looking forward to the day when we have some standards agreed upon and we can all start implementing them. At the same time, I want those standards to represent enough forward thinking that we don't end up un-implementing them in favor of something else. So... Maybe I'm thinking too far outside the box, but it looks like the formats proposed thus far all assume that the (html) content we'll be "semanticizing" is going to written in such a way as to accommodate the format, that all the information going (ultimately) into, say, the vCard for one person will be presented discretely from the vCard information for another person. For example, suppose we have the following text in a (fictitious local sports) webpage: "Bobby and Billy are on the same football team and on Sunday they're playing against the Falcons, whose coach is Ron Smith. Ron Smith is Bobby and Billy's father. The brothers are also the star quarterback and star fullback at Pittsfield High." In short, in this paragraph the information on one person is interspersed with information about the others. Moreover, though the paragraph doesn't say explicitly, we know that the brothers' last name is Smith. In realworld texts, the information on people is seldom separated out in a way convenient for the sort of formatting which has been proposed, i.e., with beginning and end tags and all relevant in between and with no other semantically-desirable information between the opening and closing tags. I would think, too, that a lot of the work that will arise after semantic formatting is implemented will be in older, already published texts, stuff that can't be rewritten with semantic formatting in mind. best, ken -- Thou shalt not molest a stranger, nor afflict him: for yourselves also were strangers in the land of Egypt. --Exodus 22:21 From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Mon Nov 26 23:37:28 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Mon Nov 26 23:37:30 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Re:_=91XH?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?TML=92_references_to_=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: <4EE30802-E40C-4D25-8869-9D1592A2B220@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D2D7E14-5AFB-401E-9E15-BF14B8503591@ben-ward.co.uk> <4EE30802-E40C-4D25-8869-9D1592A2B220@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <18050cf90711262337i7b5a54a5sd9cd7ea66a3fe17a@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2007 11:01 AM, Ben Ward wrote: > On 26 Nov 2007, at 21:21, Andr? Lu?s wrote: > > Here's an idea... since that would involve altering every page with > > xhtml in them anyway, why not go one step further and in the first > > reference to XHTML change it to "HTML or XHTML" with a link to an > > explanatory page? Stating that ufs work on both worlds. > > We could, but does it need greater explanation than 'HTML or XHTML'. > What more is there to say? There isn't. So let us change the first of each page to 'HTML or XHTML' and leave the rest of the page as it is. -- Paul Wilkins From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Mon Nov 26 23:55:30 2007 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Mon Nov 26 23:55:37 2007 Subject: calendar (and other) items aren't always tidy (was: Re: [uf-discuss] using microschema) In-Reply-To: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <18050cf90711262355y1407ba40k8cf8e55e29990e18@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2007 11:57 AM, ken wrote: > Maybe I'm thinking too far outside the box, but it looks like the > formats proposed thus far all assume that the (html) content we'll be > "semanticizing" is going to written in such a way as to accommodate the > format, that all the information going (ultimately) into, say, the vCard > for one person will be presented discretely from the vCard information > for another person. For example, suppose we have the following text in > a (fictitious local sports) webpage: > > "Bobby and Billy are on the same football team and on Sunday they're > playing against the Falcons, whose coach is Ron Smith. Ron Smith is > Bobby and Billy's father. The brothers are also the star quarterback > and star fullback at Pittsfield High." Now there's a challenge. Bobby and Billy are on the same football team and on Sunday they're playing against the Falcons, whose coach is Ron Smith . Ron Smith is Bobby and Billy's father. The brothers are also the star quarterback and star fullback at Pittsfield High." This has been tested with Operator, and others should have no trouble either. Other information could have been marked up, but that's been left as an exercise should you wish to take things further. -- Paul Wilkins From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Nov 27 02:01:22 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Nov 27 02:01:29 2007 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[uf-discuss]_Re:_=91XHTML=92_references_to_?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=91HTML=92?= In-Reply-To: <18050cf90711262337i7b5a54a5sd9cd7ea66a3fe17a@mail.gmail.com> References: <52521346-6478-4BCB-8219-ACC21A1164DD@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711261149m25c3f1f4p1e672d79d08dc3ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D2D7E14-5AFB-401E-9E15-BF14B8503591@ben-ward.co.uk> <4EE30802-E40C-4D25-8869-9D1592A2B220@ben-ward.co.uk> <18050cf90711262337i7b5a54a5sd9cd7ea66a3fe17a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33DAA2D7-2BB0-425B-A679-CBBF10CF0AA9@ben-ward.co.uk> Right, I'll put this on my to-do list. I don't know how much work it's going to be yet, but let's say I'll plan to start updating pages on Friday. That's the rest of the week for anyone else to object to the change. The change I propose is: ? Update the first mention of ?HTML? or ?XHTML? (or variant) in a page to ?HTML and XHTML? ? Update other references to XHTML, (X)HTML or X/HTML to ?HTML? Ben From john.breslin at deri.org Tue Nov 27 04:43:17 2007 From: john.breslin at deri.org (John Breslin) Date: Tue Nov 27 04:43:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Announcement: WebCamp workshop on Social Network Portability Message-ID: <474C10E5.6080907@deri.org> I am happy to announce the "Social Network Portability" workshop (co-located with BlogTalk) to be held in Cork, Ireland on the 2nd March 2008. You can view the wiki page for this event at http://webcamp.org/SocialNetworkPortability "Social network portability" is a term that has been used to describe the ability to reuse one's own profile and contacts across various social networking sites and social media applications. At this workshop, we will combine presentations with breakout sessions to discuss all aspects of portability for social networking sites (including accounts, friends, activities / content, and applications). I would like to invite members of the Microformats community to submit ideas for presentation on the wiki page. Topics of relevance include, but are not limited to, social network centralisation versus decentralisation, OpenSocial, microformats including XHTML Friends Network (XFN) and hCard, authentication and authorisation, OpenID single sign-on, Bloom filters, categorising friends and personas, FOAF, ownership of your published content, SIOC, the OpenFriend format, the Social Network Aggregation Protocol (SNAP), aggregation and privacy, permissions and context, the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP), the social graph and the giant global graph. You can register for this workshop in conjunction with BlogTalk 2008 at http://www.amiando.com/blogtalk2008 (there is a nominal fee of ?50 to cover food and room costs). If you are interested in speaking or otherwise participating in the workshop, please add your name under the Speakers or Participants headings on the wiki page at http://webcamp.org/SocialNetworkPortability Please feel free to e-mail me with any questions about the event. Thanks, John. -- http://www.johnbreslin.com/ From Scott at randomchaos.com Tue Nov 27 06:37:06 2007 From: Scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Nov 27 06:37:16 2007 Subject: calendar (and other) items aren't always tidy (was: Re: [uf-discuss] using microschema) In-Reply-To: <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> References: <21e523c20711250243v7b3e5c5clc16203977441bf99@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80711250334k650238e1se388df15f73fedb6@mail.gmail.com> <2D407C54-975A-4CB5-AF8B-2920E3B34452@ben-ward.co.uk> <474B4F67.30005@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <273879E8-D7A6-4865-A00F-53C1AF86E862@randomchaos.com> On Nov 26, 2007, at 3:57 PM, ken wrote: > The idea of a semantic web is absolutely cool and I'm really looking > forward to the day when we have some standards agreed upon and we can > all start implementing them. I think we're long past that day, not just with microformats but also with RDF vocabularies and various other ad-hoc standards. People have been implementing tools based on such standards for years now. > At the same time, I want those standards > to represent enough forward thinking that we don't end up > un-implementing them in favor of something else. So... We generally try to avoid consideration of hypothetical future scenarios here, as few of us can predict the future with much accuracy. > Maybe I'm thinking too far outside the box, but it looks like the > formats proposed thus far all assume that the (html) content we'll be > "semanticizing" is going to written in such a way as to accommodate > the > format, that all the information going (ultimately) into, say, the > vCard > for one person will be presented discretely from the vCard information > for another person. This is largely true; however, there has already been some work on addressing this issue, both in specific formats, and more generally: http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo > For example, suppose we have the following text in > a (fictitious local sports) webpage: > > "Bobby and Billy are on the same football team and on Sunday they're > playing against the Falcons, whose coach is Ron Smith. Ron Smith is > Bobby and Billy's father. The brothers are also the star quarterback > and star fullback at Pittsfield High." > > In short, in this paragraph the information on one person is > interspersed with information about the others. As I suggested above, you're not likely to find much interest here in hypothetical examples. Until we have more real-world examples of this kind of interspersed content, it won't be seen as a high-priority issue. If and when it becomes a high-priority issue, we should be able to develop a solution without significantly changing existing microformat semantics, so we don't have to worry about changing everything later. If you have any real-world examples of this problem, I'd encourage you to add them to the MFO page in the wiki. > Moreover, though the > paragraph doesn't say explicitly, we know that the brothers' last name > is Smith. In realworld texts, the information on people is seldom > separated out in a way convenient for the sort of formatting which has > been proposed Microformats aren't merely proposals. They're being published widely and used effectively in many applications. One of the ways in which this problem is already addressed is the include pattern, which allows the inclusion of content outside the root container: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern > I would think, too, that a lot of the work > that will arise after semantic formatting is implemented will be in > older, already published texts, stuff that can't be rewritten with > semantic formatting in mind. Indeed, that's one of the key goals of microformats - they don't require significant revision of existing HTML to use. Peace, Scott From nojorin at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 08:44:03