From tom at tommorris.org Tue Oct 2 05:57:11 2007 From: tom at tommorris.org (Tom Morris) Date: Tue Oct 2 05:57:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] GRDDL with HTML 4.01 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, I've been procrastinating and avoiding my e-mail. On 9/27/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message > , Tom > Morris writes > Am I correct in thinking you'd parse any page with hCard that way, with > or without it having GRDDL mark-up? > Yes, Triplr should parse most pages with hCard (and whatever the other common microformats it has built in) without any profile URIs. Next time I see dajobe on IRC, I'll ask him which microformats it auto-detects. > >Triplr can't parse any of the actual GRDDL data. > > Not sure what you mean, here. > Triplr is not reading the data-view URI from your page (it's not expecting it to be there) and thus not making the correct inferences. > > You ought to use a > >profile page - perhaps a specific profile for your whole site with > >links to different transformations. > > What would be the advantage of that, for me or the site's users? > Well, making one of your pages in to a profile for all the others won't really help you, nor the sites users. But until we get off our collective arses and put up profiles for the other microformats and non-official-microformats (GeoURL in this case). > >Using data-view on the source document is not good practice. There's > >no reason you can't but Triplr doesn't seem to be reading it. > > Again, not sure what you mean, here. > Okay, your page has got the profile URI. Technically, a GRDDL processor ought to pick that up and use it to interpret the contents of your page in accordance with what is in the link[@rel='transformation'] elements. But - in practice - that's not how it's implemented. You should really have a separate profile URI. Most GRDDL processors aren't written to recognise the link[@rel='transformation'] elements on the 'source' page, but on the 'profile' page. If you switched your page over so that it used links to profile URIs, rather than using the page itself as a profile for how to intepret the page, there are other advantages - GRDDL processors can often be optimised by locally storing the relevant transformations. In my internal processor, for instance, I have a local copy of the hCard transformation - it's invoked both by the string "vcard" being in the document and the hCard profile URI: . Unfortunately, you are in the position where the profile URIs don't exist at the moment. That's why I'm suggesting you simply have a profile page on your site - a bit like mine: It would simply contain a list of all the XSL files you currently have in head/link. You could edit this page to turn it in to a GRDDL profile for the site, then just point to it from the profile URIs. "About this Site" and "Colophon" style pages seem like an ideal candidate for being GRDDL profiles. > >The W3C hosts an official reference implementation GRDDL service: > >http://www.w3.org/2007/08/grddl/ > >This should not read your page as it's designed to work closely to > >spec - i.e. XHTML and XML, not HTML 4. > > That seems a rather short-sighted view, if the intention is to allow > publishers to join the semantic web with the least effort. > It's not really short sighted. The W3C implementation is a reference implementation that's built as closely as possible to the spec. Most GRDDL implementations will not follow the spec, and will extend it to do things like (a) automatically detecting microformats and (b) supporting HTML 4. It's not really intended for public use, but just to see what the page should look like to a 'base' GRDDL implementation. If you have specific implementation things you wish to discuss, feel free to e-mail or IM me off-list. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From chris.messina at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 21:37:37 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Tue Oct 2 21:37:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Apple Store uses hReview on all its customer reviews Message-ID: <1bc4603e0710022137s54045d03n303bbec2733205a@mail.gmail.com> I dunno if this was posted before (a quick search and a look at the wiki page didn't reveal prior art) but I just discovered that all Apple Store customer reviews are marked up with hReview. How's that for Apple embracing open web standards? Chris -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Advocate-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 IM: factoryjoe This email is: [X] bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private From supercanadian at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 22:05:30 2007 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Tue Oct 2 22:05:35 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Apple Store uses hReview on all its customer reviews In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0710022137s54045d03n303bbec2733205a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1bc4603e0710022137s54045d03n303bbec2733205a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0710022205j3dd7fb04p1ebd6d6e14978862@mail.gmail.com> Awesome. On 10/2/07, Chris Messina wrote: > I dunno if this was posted before (a quick search and a look at the > wiki page didn't reveal prior art) but I just discovered that all > Apple Store customer reviews are marked up with hReview. > > How's that for Apple embracing open web standards? > -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. Vlog Razor... Vlogging News http://vlograzor.com/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Oct 4 00:42:04 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Oct 4 00:43:23 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hRelease Working Group Message-ID: From the "new Media Release mailing list, FYI: In message <1191438824.751357.13530@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, Shannon Whitley writes >The hRelease Working Group could use a few more members. This is the >core set of advisors who will present the hRelease specification to >the larger group. If you have some familiarity with HTML and are >interested in helping with hRelease, please contact me at >swhitley[at]whitleymedia.com. > >Here's a post from my blog on some of my experiments with hRelease and >Firefox: > >http://www.voiceoftech.com/swhitley/?p=379 > >If this is interesting to you, join us and help shape the future of >hRelease. > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ >visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/newmediarelease >-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Andy Mabbett From thom at ts0.com Thu Oct 4 02:31:32 2007 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Thu Oct 4 02:31:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] split full names Message-ID: <4704B2F4.6050206@ts0.com> This isn't strictly microformats related but I thought a few people on here might have some advice. Is there an accepted reliable way of dividing a full name into given name and family name? Actually I'm sure the short answer is no, but is there a least evil way? From nick at nickfitz.co.uk Thu Oct 4 03:02:33 2007 From: nick at nickfitz.co.uk (Nick Fitzsimons) Date: Thu Oct 4 03:00:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] split full names In-Reply-To: <4704B2F4.6050206@ts0.com> References: <4704B2F4.6050206@ts0.com> Message-ID: <506013F4-FF9C-464B-AA28-D8EF7A0A5813@nickfitz.co.uk> On 4 Oct 2007, at 10:31, Thom Shannon wrote: > This isn't strictly microformats related but I thought a few people > on here might have some advice. Is there an accepted reliable way > of dividing a full name into given name and family name? > > Actually I'm sure the short answer is no, but is there a least evil > way? Depends on which cultures you're expecting to encounter: FWIW the majority of people in the world are named with their family name *before* their given name, assuming that their culture's naming convention includes those components in the first place... Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 03:09:41 2007 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Oct 4 03:09:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] split full names In-Reply-To: <506013F4-FF9C-464B-AA28-D8EF7A0A5813@nickfitz.co.uk> References: <4704B2F4.6050206@ts0.com> <506013F4-FF9C-464B-AA28-D8EF7A0A5813@nickfitz.co.uk> Message-ID: On 04/10/2007, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: > On 4 Oct 2007, at 10:31, Thom Shannon wrote: > > > This isn't strictly microformats related but I thought a few people > > on here might have some advice. Is there an accepted reliable way > > of dividing a full name into given name and family name? > > > > Actually I'm sure the short answer is no, but is there a least evil > > way? > > Depends on which cultures you're expecting to encounter: > > > FWIW the majority of people in the world are named with their family > name *before* their given name, assuming that their culture's naming > convention includes those components in the first place... > The biggest problem, IIRC, is non-hyphenated double first names, like Mary Jane Smith or something, where "Mary Jane" is the full first name. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Oct 4 03:16:06 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Oct 4 03:16:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Apple Store uses hReview on all its customer reviews Message-ID: <8683.80.249.57.38.1191492966.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> >How's that for Apple embracing open web standards? Broken. Data marked up as class="url" is apparently a part number or some such. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From bjonkman at sobac.com Thu Oct 4 10:00:05 2007 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Thu Oct 4 10:04:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] split full names In-Reply-To: References: <4704B2F4.6050206@ts0.com>, <506013F4-FF9C-464B-AA28-D8EF7A0A5813@nickfitz.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4704E3D5.24361.C776ED@bjonkman.sobac.com> How microformats handle this in hCards is documented on the Wiki at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22n.22_Optimization It explicitly restricts this fn optimization to two-part names. --Bob. This is what Frances Berriman said about "Re: [uf-discuss] split full names" on 4 Oct 2007 at 11:09 > On 04/10/2007, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: > > On 4 Oct 2007, at 10:31, Thom Shannon wrote: > > > > > This isn't strictly microformats related but I thought a few people > > > on here might have some advice. Is there an accepted reliable way > > > of dividing a full name into given name and family name? > > > > > > Actually I'm sure the short answer is no, but is there a least evil > > > way? > > > > Depends on which cultures you're expecting to encounter: > > > > > > FWIW the majority of people in the world are named with their family > > name *before* their given name, assuming that their culture's naming > > convention includes those components in the first place... > > > > > The biggest problem, IIRC, is non-hyphenated double first names, like > Mary Jane Smith or something, where "Mary Jane" is the full first > name. > > > > > -- > Frances Berriman > http://fberriman.com > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- -- -- -- Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Voice: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cel: +1-519-635-9413 Networking -- Office & Business Automation -- Consulting PGP:0xAE33E989 Fingrprnt:9FAF A6AC B567 BC10 8973 7CF0 CB27 0317 From glenn.jones at madgex.com Fri Oct 5 02:59:01 2007 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Fri Oct 5 02:55:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Backnetwork Lab - XFN pagination Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01243483@MOBY.Clarence.local> Few weeks ago I watched Tantek give a demonstration of the Plaxo open social graph which is a rel="me" spider. It reminded me how powerful practical demonstrations are at communicating concepts. So I have built lab.backnetwork.com with the idea of constructing a number of service based interfaces to demonstrate some key concepts that are currently under discussion. I am really interested in focusing on the portable social network area, so I have start with a very simple example of XFN pagination using rel="next". http://lab.backnetwork.com/xfnpagination/ I am hoping to fellow this with a second interface which can parse the XFN/hcard pattern (http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability). Any feedback or comments would be welcome Glenn Jones http://www.glennjones.net/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Oct 6 08:45:47 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Oct 6 08:47:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Roles/ titles for multiple organisations Message-ID: Suppose: My name is Andy Mabbett. I am a director of Acme inc. and in my spare time, a junior assistant warden on Green Fields Nature Reserve. How can I mark up that text, as an hCard, so that its clear that I'm not a junior assistant warden at Acme and a Director at Green Fields? -- Andy Mabbett From paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz Sat Oct 6 17:46:32 2007 From: paul_wilkins at xtra.co.nz (paul_wilkins@xtra.co.nz) Date: Sat Oct 6 17:46:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Roles/ titles for multiple organisations Message-ID: <659929.25546.qm@web96004.mail.aue.yahoo.com> From: Andy Mabbett > Suppose: > My name is Andy Mabbett. I am a director of Acme inc. and in my > spare time, a junior assistant warden on Green Fields Nature > Reserve. > > How can I mark up that text, as an hCard, so that its clear that I'm not > a junior assistant warden at Acme and a Director at Green Fields? I don't think it's possible to enter multiple businesses as an address book entry. This appears to be a deficiency of the typical address book format, and not with the hCard spec itself. The major role would be the title and organisation, while the other would go in the notes field.
My name is Andy Mabbett. I am a director of Acme inc. and in my spare time, a junior assistant warden on Green Fields Nature Reserve.
-- Paul Wilkins From lucapost at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 10:01:28 2007 From: lucapost at gmail.com (LucaP) Date: Mon Oct 8 10:01:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator's support for Include-pattern in hcards ? Message-ID: Despite the lack of feedback about my recent 'hcards into Table-TRs' post, I kept testing with it and added two include-patterns for organization-name and fax-number. The general hcard for the institution (in the page-footer) contains: INGV - Bologna Branch ... fax +39-051-4151498 each staff member hcard references that with: Tails correctly displays the whole data-set for each hcard, while Operator looses the included fields completely ('Export Contact' -> Mac OS Address Book but also in the 'Debug' panel) Am I doing something wrong or is Operator missing support for the include-pattern??!? Please check the page at: http://www.bo.ingv.it/contents/INGV-Bologna/Staff.html ciao, Luca From bmiller at compumentor.org Mon Oct 8 12:59:37 2007 From: bmiller at compumentor.org (Brian Miller) Date: Mon Oct 8 12:59:42 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview using include pattern Message-ID: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D6DF@cmexch.compumentor.org> I'm attempting to implement hreview on our directory of free software downloads. The page is structured with the software information (item) separate from the listing of the reviews. The specs say that you should wrap the product information and the 1st review in hreview and then include the item information in each subsequent review using include pattern. My page separates the item information from the first review so I'm unable to wrap both in an hreview class. I assume you can specify the item info and then use include pattern to include it in the first and subsequent reviews. Although I'm wondering if I need to wrap the item information in hreview or just the reviews themselves. Simplified html:

AROUNDMe

Get It Here
Rating:
Star Rating - 3

test Final

October 03, 2007 - bmiller_test12

Rating:
Star Rating - 2

September 10, 2007 - bmiller_test12

Full html example: http://dev.techsoup.org/learningcenter/Downloads/Database/page7400.cfm Also, are there any tools I can use to test or validate this? Brian Miller Web Application Developer CompuMentor, home of TechSoup.org 415-633-9463 office 415-676-1458 mobile 415-633-9400 fax brian@compumentor.org From martin at weborganics.co.uk Mon Oct 8 16:00:18 2007 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Mon Oct 8 15:59:41 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview using include pattern In-Reply-To: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D6DF@cmexch.compumentor.org> References: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D6DF@cmexch.compumentor.org> Message-ID: <1191884418.25159.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-10-08 at 12:59 -0700, Brian Miller wrote: > I'm attempting to implement hreview on our directory of free software > downloads. The page is structured with the software information (item) > separate from the listing of the reviews. The specs say that you should > wrap the product information and the 1st review in hreview and then > include the item information in each subsequent review using include > pattern. My page separates the item information from the first review so > I'm unable to wrap both in an hreview class. I assume you can specify > the item info and then use include pattern to include it in the first > and subsequent reviews. Although I'm wondering if I need to wrap the > item information in hreview or just the reviews themselves. I think the class include pattern is only implemented in vcards at least that is the only time I have ever seen it used, and I think the only way parsers such as tails support it at the moment. I know hReview since 0.3 has had the support for class includes but how to go about that is a little obscure? can it be used anywhere in the document or does it have to be wrapped in the reviewers vcard? > > Simplified html: > > >
> >
> >
> > >
>
Rating:
>
src="/images/star_three.gif" width="54" height="15" alt="Star Rating - > 3" />
>
>

test Final

>

October 03, > 2007 - bmiller_test12

>
> >
> > >
>
Rating:
>
src="/images/star_two.gif" width="54" height="15" alt="Star Rating - 2" > />
>
>

September 10, > 2007 - bmiller_test12

>
> > Full html example: > > http://dev.techsoup.org/learningcenter/Downloads/Database/page7400.cfm > > Also, are there any tools I can use to test or validate this? Thanks Martin > > Brian Miller > Web Application Developer > CompuMentor, home of TechSoup.org > 415-633-9463 office > 415-676-1458 mobile > 415-633-9400 fax > brian@compumentor.org > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From bmiller at compumentor.org Mon Oct 8 16:57:36 2007 From: bmiller at compumentor.org (Brian Miller) Date: Mon Oct 8 16:58:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview using include pattern In-Reply-To: <1191884418.25159.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D7EE@cmexch.compumentor.org> >From the hreview spec: "hReview 0.3 includes support for the object include-pattern" "In order to avoid having to repeat the item info for each review of the item, the first review should be marked up as an hReview, with a unique "id" attribute on the item info, and then following reviews should use the object include-pattern to include the item info from the first review." In looking at the hreview examples (apple, readandtravel) who have a similar structure, they usually repeat the item information in each review and use css to hide it. This seems messy from a semantic and accessibility point of view. Most screenreader users would not enjoy hearing the item information every time. Brian From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 20:11:02 2007 From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy) Date: Mon Oct 8 20:11:10 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator's support for Include-pattern in hcards ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a52ddad0710082011v8fc3b66r35d8a321fdb297fc@mail.gmail.com> Hi Luca, I think your problem is not in Operator support, but in Tails "forgiveness". Your microformats not coded properly. "organization-name" only make sense inside "org". If you included "type" into "tel", you should include "value" as well. On 09/10/2007, LucaP wrote: > Despite the lack of feedback about my recent 'hcards into Table-TRs' > post, I kept testing with it and added two include-patterns for > organization-name and fax-number. > The general hcard for the institution (in the page-footer) contains: > INGV - Bologna Branch > ... > fax +39-051-4151498 > > each staff member hcard references that with: > > > > Tails correctly displays the whole data-set for each hcard, while > Operator looses the included fields completely ('Export Contact' -> > Mac OS Address Book but also in the 'Debug' panel) > > Am I doing something wrong or is Operator missing support for the > include-pattern??!? > Please check the page at: > http://www.bo.ingv.it/contents/INGV-Bologna/Staff.html > > ciao, Luca > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Best regards, Dmitry Baranovskiy http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Oct 9 01:00:12 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Oct 9 01:00:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview using include pattern In-Reply-To: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D7EE@cmexch.compumentor.org> References: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D7EE@cmexch.compumentor.org> Message-ID: <7F0E7F3D-9DF1-483E-9662-EA2C0A222322@ben-ward.co.uk> On 9 Oct 2007, at 00:57, Brian Miller wrote: > In looking at the hreview examples (apple, readandtravel) who have a > similar structure, they usually repeat the item information in each > review and use css to hide it. This seems messy from a semantic and > accessibility point of view. Most screenreader users would not enjoy > hearing the item information every time. I haven't checked, but they may be slightly older implementations. For a time there was a problem with the OBJECT include pattern in Safari, which led to the Anchor based include pattern being designed. That in turn is sub-optimal as empty-anchors are poor accessibility. So, if those implementations were built before Safari fixed its OBJECT bug ? or before that fix was regarded as wide-spread ? then they may have compromised with repeating data. The new hReview deployment we've just put out uses the OBJECT pattern. Ben From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Oct 9 03:53:01 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Oct 9 03:53:08 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT include pattern and excess HTTP requests Message-ID: <80F6BDE8-95F5-4F46-BB7A-039AD8549581@ben-ward.co.uk> Hey hey, Quick question for people publishing hReview. Long ago when the OBJECT-include pattern was first raised, there was a bug in Safari that made it unworkable. That bug got fixed. However, there appears to be a separate, very serious browser issue whereby browsers are making additional HTTP requests for each OBJECT include in a page, even though the data attribute is making a same- page fragment reference (#review-item or whatever). I've swapped for the hyperlink include pattern (however, repeating the review item name as the InnerText of the anchor, so as not to create poorly accessible empty anchors). What I want to know is if anyone else knows of a robust solution to prevent browsers firing off these extra requests from the presences of OBJECT? My feeling is that the Wiki content on the include pattern needs a tidy anyway, but if this issue with firing unwanted requests is unfixable, I think we should restructure to promote the hyperlink- include as the first-choice solution. I should emphasise that whilst it may be a non-issue or trivial for small-scale publishing, firing off these extra requests is a deal- breaker performance problem on the scale of sites we have at Yahoo. Ben From uf-discuss at cilux.org Tue Oct 9 04:37:35 2007 From: uf-discuss at cilux.org (Duncan Cragg) Date: Tue Oct 9 04:37:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT include pattern and excess HTTP requests In-Reply-To: <80F6BDE8-95F5-4F46-BB7A-039AD8549581@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <80F6BDE8-95F5-4F46-BB7A-039AD8549581@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <5b5fe14a0710090437y30e16373qef7c9b7af088661c@mail.gmail.com> > I've swapped for the hyperlink include pattern (however, repeating > the review item name as the InnerText of the anchor, so as not to > create poorly accessible empty anchors). +1 > My feeling is that the Wiki content on the include pattern needs a > tidy anyway, but if this issue with firing unwanted requests is > unfixable, I think we should restructure to promote the hyperlink- > include as the first-choice solution. +1 Duncan Cragg PS It's then just a small step to allow off-page includes, which is related to the interlinked hCards on different sites that I was talking about recently on this list. If anyone can come up with more real-world use-cases for this type of cross-site uF linkage, I'd be most grateful. Looking further ahead (wrong list for that, I know) I'd see good mashup opportunities from allowing more uF interlinkage... =0) From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Oct 9 05:22:01 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Oct 9 05:22:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] General Definition List Pattern Message-ID: Idea that's been brewing in my mind for a little while of using the semantics of a definition list better in microformats. Take the following example from an hCard:
Home
01223 123 456
Fax
01223 123 457
Cell
07734 703 618
You would still declare explicit class names on the DT and DD elements ? no implicit classes should be applied based on it being a DT/DD ? but the rule works as follows: In a DL with class "foo" , each set of DT+DD is treated as a separate parent "foo". So in the above example, the DL has class "tel", but it is parsed as if you have three standalone "tel" elements for each actual telephone number. We have something along these lines in our mark-up at the moment, so I'd obviously quite like to see if it's feasible for parsers to handle this. Thoughts? From lucapost at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 05:35:21 2007 From: lucapost at gmail.com (LucaP) Date: Tue Oct 9 05:35:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator's support for Include-pattern in hcards ? Message-ID: Thanks Dimitry your suggestion fixed it! I still see problems with multiple-words family-names & given-names in Operator. ciao From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 06:17:02 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Oct 9 06:17:06 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] General Definition List Pattern In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780710090617r3f9559eev3183831767c2a8da@mail.gmail.com> On 10/9/07, Ben Ward wrote: > Idea that's been brewing in my mind for a little while of using the > semantics of a definition list better in microformats. --- we did talk about this a long long long time ago. So it might not be in the archives. We discussed the idea of lists in general.
  • item1
  • item2
  • item3
CATEGORIES:item1,item2,item3 This was dropped at the time, but i can't exactly remember why or find a reference. X2V did support something similar but was backed-out. -brian > Take the following example from an hCard: > >
>
Home
>
01223 123 456
>
Fax
>
01223 123 457
>
Cell
>
07734 703 618
>
> > You would still declare explicit class names on the DT and DD > elements ? no implicit classes should be applied based on it being a > DT/DD ? but the rule works as follows: > > In a DL with class "foo" , each set of DT+DD is treated as a separate > parent "foo". So in the above example, the DL has class "tel", but it > is parsed as if you have three standalone "tel" elements for each > actual telephone number. > > We have something along these lines in our mark-up at the moment, so > I'd obviously quite like to see if it's feasible for parsers to > handle this. > > Thoughts? > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From patcito at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 08:58:00 2007 From: patcito at gmail.com (Patrick Aljord) Date: Tue Oct 9 08:58:05 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats Message-ID: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, I need to do a presentation on the semantic Web and all the articles I read about it talks about RDF and usually show this schema: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:W3c-semantic-web-layers.svg Could anyone please tell me what's the relation between the semantic web and microformats, where would the microformats stands on that schema for example? Can microformats and the SW be related and in what way? thanx in advance for your answers Pat From pembertona at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 09:44:22 2007 From: pembertona at gmail.com (Andy Pemberton) Date: Tue Oct 9 09:44:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45ef1e160710090944y765c8ac4i44fac5dd87dce73d@mail.gmail.com> http://www.tantek.com/presentations/2004etech/realworldsemanticspres.html On 10/9/07, Patrick Aljord wrote: > Hey all, > > I need to do a presentation on the semantic Web and all the articles I > read about it talks about RDF and usually show this schema: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:W3c-semantic-web-layers.svg > > Could anyone please tell me what's the relation between the semantic > web and microformats, where would the microformats stands on that > schema for example? > Can microformats and the SW be related and in what way? > > thanx in advance for your answers > > Pat > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Oct 9 09:54:59 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Oct 9 09:55:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13968585-5475-44B4-8AC7-78268B14D6BE@randomchaos.com> On Oct 9, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Patrick Aljord wrote: > Hey all, > > I need to do a presentation on the semantic Web and all the articles I > read about it talks about RDF and usually show this schema: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:W3c-semantic-web-layers.svg > > Could anyone please tell me what's the relation between the semantic > web and microformats, where would the microformats stands on that > schema for example? > Can microformats and the SW be related and in what way? I think of microformats as an alternative path to the same ends. You can replace "RDF Model & Syntax" with "XHTML Model & Syntax", "XML Query" with "HTML parsers", and "XML Schema" with "HTML Profile URIs". You could, by the way, also replace those with equivalent Atom components, and other languages as well. Each language brings different expression capabilities, but semantics in general work pretty much the same in any language, as GRDDL demonstrates. Peace, Scott From bbtommorris at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 10:27:33 2007 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Tue Oct 9 10:27:36 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/9/07, Patrick Aljord wrote: > Hey all, > > I need to do a presentation on the semantic Web and all the articles I > read about it talks about RDF and usually show this schema: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:W3c-semantic-web-layers.svg > > Could anyone please tell me what's the relation between the semantic > web and microformats, where would the microformats stands on that > schema for example? > Can microformats and the SW be related and in what way? > Microformats and the Semantic Web are related, but how they are related is something people dispute. 1. There are a number of people who thinks that microformats are a drop-in replacement for the W3C and Tim Berners-Lee's vision of the SW. They see the SW as too complicated, bureaucratic and out-of-step with current web development practice. For instance, at FOWA in London this week, one presentation described the relationship of microformats to RDF as being like the relationship of REST to SOAP. 2. There are obviously people who think the complete opposite - that microformats are an irrelevant distraction from the Semantic Web. There are probably more people in the former group than the latter. 3. There are people in the middle, who think that microformats are a valuable approach, but that there is a space for work between the two spheres. I'm definitely of the 'compatibilist' bent. Here's why: I think that the Semantic Web approach, with it's use of URIs and namespacing, allows solutions to domain-specific problems that can't necessarily be solved by microformats, because domain-specific problems do not correlate very well with the principles underlying microformats - namely codifying existing practices. For instance, I've been looking at how we could represent fictional characters in an hCard-style format. I think that there is value in a "top-down" approach too, because sometimes there are problems where there is no bubble-up solution forthcoming. For instance, I visited the Gene Campus in Cambridge (UK) recently, and saw that they are just working out how to publish huge volumes of genetic data online in a big database. They are going to provide an API, but were also looking for a more light-weight data format. There would be no microformat for this - because of the social organisation of the microformats community. There is value in the way that microformats are organised and run, but there is value in allowing people to experiment and come up with their own forms of social organisation. It may be that in some circumstances, one person working on a schema on their own may come up with a better solution than everybody else. Because RDF and the Semantic Web approach is based on URIs, all it takes to coin a new schema is some URI-space - and everybody can get URI space for a reasonably low cost. The cost of entry for extending existing standards in a useful way is lowered. For instance, Danny Ayers wrote a FOAF extension a while back that allowed you to represent your pets. Has it taken off? No. Does it matter? Not particularly. If approach X doesn't work, *anyone* can try to approach the problem in a different way... The microformats community works on the basis of having the data embedded into the HTML. The RDF/SemWeb approach looks to have a consistent data model, and then having as many representations as you like of that data model. The data model for microformats differs based on which tool you use (perhaps it's in a key-value-pair array, or an object, or in an XML format) - even though it's getting the same syntax (HTML or XHTML). With RDF, you have the same model (subject, predicate, object) but with different syntaxes (XML, JSON, (X)HTML-with-GRDDL, N3/N-Triples, TriX, the new JavaScript proposal that's been circulating on the W3C semantic web mailing list, internal memory models, SQL table etc.) There is also value in the 'write the parser once' approach. Each new microformat requires a new set of tools - Operator, Tails, X2V, Optimus and so on, will have to be rewritten or extended to cover new microformats. But RDF tools keep on reading RDF regardless of how many new schemas people create. Imagine if we had to recreate the DOM, XML parsers, XSLT, XPath, validators, XQuery and the rest of the XML stack whenever anyone came up with a new XML-based specification. Microformats have changed how Semantic Web development is taking place. There are a small but growing number of increasingly pragmatic developers who are less concerned with large-scale ontology projects, less concerned with Rules and inference (etc.) and more concerned with publishing the data out on the web, now. That said, often I feel that people just try and make problems disappear. Which never happens, of course. Problems never really disappear. They just reappear in more complex forms. For me, microformats are like the 'literals' of the Semantic Web - the most reusable chunks (people, places, events, 'votes', tags and reviews) - which can then be used and extended with the pre-existing Semantic Web technologies for custom purposes. The GRDDL approach - which recently got the W3C seal of approval - is a bridge between microformats - both those officially created by microformats.org ("upper case microformats"? heh heh), and those just defined into existence by authors - and the Semantic Web. What I find neat about it is that anyone can just define a GRDDL profile and start using it - without having to spend time arguing on mailing lists. e.g. http://tommorris.org/profiles/nsfw I'm working on showing ways that we can do the sort of mashup-style behaviour that is currently done with APIs quite easily with the Semantic Web approach. Here's a guide I published recently on how you can use RDF in Python to quickly query data: http://tommorris.org/blog/2007/09/24#When:21:03:04 If you want to, feel free to e-mail me off-list. Yours, -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From bmiller at compumentor.org Tue Oct 9 10:39:01 2007 From: bmiller at compumentor.org (Brian Miller) Date: Tue Oct 9 10:39:05 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview using include pattern In-Reply-To: <7F0E7F3D-9DF1-483E-9662-EA2C0A222322@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D8CD@cmexch.compumentor.org> Great, so I can use the object. So back to the original question: Can the item information be separate from the first review and just included in the first review using object? If yes, then does that item information need to be wrapped in hreview? Any tools to test and validate? Brian Miller Web Application Developer CompuMentor, home of TechSoup.org 415-633-9463 office 415-676-1458 mobile 415-633-9400 fax brian@compumentor.org -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Ben Ward Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:00 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hreview using include pattern On 9 Oct 2007, at 00:57, Brian Miller wrote: > In looking at the hreview examples (apple, readandtravel) who have a > similar structure, they usually repeat the item information in each > review and use css to hide it. This seems messy from a semantic and > accessibility point of view. Most screenreader users would not enjoy > hearing the item information every time. I haven't checked, but they may be slightly older implementations. For a time there was a problem with the OBJECT include pattern in Safari, which led to the Anchor based include pattern being designed. That in turn is sub-optimal as empty-anchors are poor accessibility. So, if those implementations were built before Safari fixed its OBJECT bug - or before that fix was regarded as wide-spread - then they may have compromised with repeating data. The new hReview deployment we've just put out uses the OBJECT pattern. Ben _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Tue Oct 9 11:45:22 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Tue Oct 9 11:45:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hreview using include pattern In-Reply-To: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D8CD@cmexch.compumentor.org> References: <411437810651EC42B86228A4139DF4F60371D8CD@cmexch.compumentor.org> Message-ID: On 9 Oct 2007, at 18:39, Brian Miller wrote: > Great, so I can use the object. So back to the original question: Can > the item information be separate from the first review and just > included > in the first review using object? If yes, then does that item > information need to be wrapped in hreview? > Yes it can. Our reviews have the ?item? part at the top of the page and then the reviews themselves appear further down. > Any tools to test and validate? Operator for Firefox has a debug mode that shows the parsed object structure from the page, so you can see that everything is as you expect. One HUGE update to what I've said previously though. I'll quote my other mail to the list from earlier today. In short, we've had a problem with using OBJECT, so switched to the alternative hyperlink include pattern instead (http://microformats.org/wiki/include- pattern#hyperlink_include_example) > [?] there appears to be a separate, very serious browser issue > whereby browsers are making additional HTTP requests for each > OBJECT include in a page, even though the data attribute is making > a same-page fragment reference (#review-item or whatever). > > I've swapped for the hyperlink include pattern (repeating the > review item name as the InnerText of the anchor, so as not to > create poorly accessible empty anchors). Please do note the last point about including inner text in the hyperlink. The wiki is out of data and shows examples with empty A elements. That's bad accessibility practice, and I intend to rectify the examples once I get some consensus from my ?OBJECT include pattern?? thread. Ben From kevinmarks at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 11:49:11 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Tue Oct 9 11:55:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> On Oct 9, 2007 10:27 AM, Tom Morris wrote: > The microformats community works on the basis of having the data > embedded into the HTML. The RDF/SemWeb approach looks to have a > consistent data model, and then having as many representations as you > like of that data model. The data model for microformats differs based > on which tool you use (perhaps it's in a key-value-pair array, or an > object, or in an XML format) - even though it's getting the same > syntax (HTML or XHTML). With RDF, you have the same model (subject, > predicate, object) but with different syntaxes (XML, JSON, > (X)HTML-with-GRDDL, N3/N-Triples, TriX, the new JavaScript proposal > that's been circulating on the W3C semantic web mailing list, internal > memory models, SQL table etc. Thats not quite right - the data model for any given microformat is clear. I think the 'common JSON representation' idea is a good one to help clarify this. > There is also value in the 'write the parser once' approach. Each new > microformat requires a new set of tools - Operator, Tails, X2V, > Optimus and so on, will have to be rewritten or extended to cover new > microformats. But RDF tools keep on reading RDF regardless of how many > new schemas people create. Imagine if we had to recreate the DOM, XML > parsers, XSLT, XPath, validators, XQuery and the rest of the XML stack > whenever anyone came up with a new XML-based specification. That's a little spurious, Tom - the issue is not parsing it, it's translating the parsed results into something that has meaning to a human. That you can express things in triple or in nested dicts and lists is one thing; knowing that one means a name and one means a phone number is another. From microformats at kaply.com Tue Oct 9 13:00:16 2007 From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:00:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator's support for Include-pattern in hcards ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you could out a testcase up, that would be great. Thanks Mike On 10/9/07, LucaP wrote: > Thanks Dimitry your suggestion fixed it! > > I still see problems with multiple-words family-names & given-names in Operator. > > > ciao > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From patcito at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 13:12:53 2007 From: patcito at gmail.com (Patrick Aljord) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:12:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b6419750710091312t433f31f9wc9e8fe9dd80db95d@mail.gmail.com> Thank you all Tom and everybody for your great answers, keep them going :) On 10/9/07, Kevin Marks wrote: > That's a little spurious, Tom - the issue is not parsing it, it's > translating the parsed results into something that has meaning to a > human. That you can express things in triple or in nested dicts and > lists is one thing; knowing that one means a name and one means a > phone number is another. indeed, as an example the Mofo library in ruby can parse many microformats by putting them in hashes and arrays, and the parser doesn't actually need to know every single attributes of each microformats, it will just put different attributes in hashes and arrays and then the application that use those hash needs to understand them to translate them. I think it's kind of the same thing for RDF file, parsers will always display the right tree and triplets but then the application that use thoses parsed trees is the one that needs to understand those trees. I agree though with Tom that when it comes to microformats, when a new one appears you need to work a bit on your parser to get it and then to work on your application to translate it, with RDF you don't need to rework on your parser. From patcito at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 16:50:45 2007 From: patcito at gmail.com (Patrick Aljord) Date: Tue Oct 9 16:57:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <45ef1e160710090944y765c8ac4i44fac5dd87dce73d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <45ef1e160710090944y765c8ac4i44fac5dd87dce73d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b6419750710091650w92c49e6p295450347ab96513@mail.gmail.com> On 10/9/07, Andy Pemberton wrote: > http://www.tantek.com/presentations/2004etech/realworldsemanticspres.html > thanx for the link, I remember of another presentation of tantek ?elik that was about using your website as an API, it looked a bit like that one but more recent maybe. Any idea where I could find it? thanx in advance Pat From patcito at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 17:08:37 2007 From: patcito at gmail.com (Patrick Aljord) Date: Tue Oct 9 17:08:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710091650w92c49e6p295450347ab96513@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <45ef1e160710090944y765c8ac4i44fac5dd87dce73d@mail.gmail.com> <6b6419750710091650w92c49e6p295450347ab96513@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b6419750710091708l5df4f6a2xc598d5627343607d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/07, Patrick Aljord wrote: > thanx for the link, I remember of another presentation of tantek ?elik > that was about using your website as an API, it looked a bit like that > one but more recent maybe. Any idea where I could find it? > found it :) http://tantek.com/presentations/20040928sdforumws/semantic-xhtml.html From tom at tommorris.org Tue Oct 9 17:33:56 2007 From: tom at tommorris.org (Tom Morris) Date: Tue Oct 9 17:34:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710091708l5df4f6a2xc598d5627343607d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <45ef1e160710090944y765c8ac4i44fac5dd87dce73d@mail.gmail.com> <6b6419750710091650w92c49e6p295450347ab96513@mail.gmail.com> <6b6419750710091708l5df4f6a2xc598d5627343607d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, Patrick Aljord wrote: > On 10/10/07, Patrick Aljord wrote: > > thanx for the link, I remember of another presentation of tantek ?elik > > that was about using your website as an API, it looked a bit like that > > one but more recent maybe. Any idea where I could find it? > > > > found it :) > http://tantek.com/presentations/20040928sdforumws/semantic-xhtml.html > Whoops. Well, you've got two for the price of one now. Microformats certainly present a good way for replacing APIs to some extent. For instance, last.fm do not provide a person's homepage in their API profile call - but you can use the data published through the API in combination with the hCard published on the person's profile. In RDFizing last.fm, this is indeed what I am doing... :) -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From tom at tommorris.org Tue Oct 9 17:29:18 2007 From: tom at tommorris.org (Tom Morris) Date: Tue Oct 9 17:35:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710091650w92c49e6p295450347ab96513@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <45ef1e160710090944y765c8ac4i44fac5dd87dce73d@mail.gmail.com> <6b6419750710091650w92c49e6p295450347ab96513@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, Patrick Aljord wrote: > On 10/9/07, Andy Pemberton wrote: > > http://www.tantek.com/presentations/2004etech/realworldsemanticspres.html > > > > thanx for the link, I remember of another presentation of tantek ?elik > that was about using your website as an API, it looked a bit like that > one but more recent maybe. Any idea where I could find it? > Not Tantek, but Drew McLellan. See: http://allinthehead.com/retro/301/can-your-website-be-your-api Given at: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-10-19-wsg-microformats-meetup -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From kevinmarks at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 17:52:14 2007 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Tue Oct 9 17:52:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <45ef1e160710090944y765c8ac4i44fac5dd87dce73d@mail.gmail.com> <6b6419750710091650w92c49e6p295450347ab96513@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160710091752i58ee7e94mc34dd88a56d366cf@mail.gmail.com> Note that is more then 2 years after the original 'can your site be your API?' presentation by me and Tantek... great to see these ideas spread out. Drew's slides are much prettier though... and he cites 'fork handles' http://epeus.blogspot.com/2007/07/end-homographophobia-now.html On Oct 9, 2007 5:29 PM, Tom Morris wrote: > On 10/10/07, Patrick Aljord wrote: > > On 10/9/07, Andy Pemberton wrote: > > > http://www.tantek.com/presentations/2004etech/realworldsemanticspres.html > > > > > > > thanx for the link, I remember of another presentation of tantek ?elik > > that was about using your website as an API, it looked a bit like that > > one but more recent maybe. Any idea where I could find it? > > > > Not Tantek, but Drew McLellan. > > See: > http://allinthehead.com/retro/301/can-your-website-be-your-api > > Given at: > http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-10-19-wsg-microformats-meetup > > -- > Tom Morris > http://tommorris.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From mdagn at spraci.com Tue Oct 9 18:59:04 2007 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Tue Oct 9 18:58:54 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT include pattern and excess HTTP requests References: <80F6BDE8-95F5-4F46-BB7A-039AD8549581@ben-ward.co.uk> <5b5fe14a0710090437y30e16373qef7c9b7af088661c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701c80ae1$23035740$116bacca@COMCEN> > My feeling is that the Wiki content on the include pattern needs a > tidy anyway, but if this issue with firing unwanted requests is > unfixable, I think we should restructure to promote the hyperlink- > include as the first-choice solution. I would agree with that... even here such extra unecessary requests could be a problem at the server end. (as the load is constantly pretty high) > PS It's then just a small step to allow off-page includes, which is > related to the interlinked hCards on different sites that I was > talking about recently on this list. If anyone can come up with more > real-world use-cases for this type of cross-site uF linkage, I'd be > most grateful. Looking further ahead (wrong list for that, I know) > I'd see good mashup opportunities from allowing more uF > interlinkage... =0) interesting ... but the extra complexity that would add to parsers (requiring them to do the extra requests) would be a problem.. also what about pages being looked at offline? I think too much stuff would break! From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Wed Oct 10 01:10:57 2007 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Wed Oct 10 01:11:07 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Cross-Page Includes (was: OBJECT include pattern and excess HTTP requests) In-Reply-To: <000701c80ae1$23035740$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <80F6BDE8-95F5-4F46-BB7A-039AD8549581@ben-ward.co.uk> <5b5fe14a0710090437y30e16373qef7c9b7af088661c@mail.gmail.com> <000701c80ae1$23035740$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <60C2FC33-FEA8-4D6F-838B-513FEBE62F6D@ben-ward.co.uk> In the interests of tidy administration, I'm splitting this thread. The originally raised and the proposal for including remote content within microformats are very different issues and it's important that the original thread stay on track. Thanks. On 10 Oct 2007, at 02:59, Michael MD wrote: >> PS It's then just a small step to allow off-page includes, which is >> related to the interlinked hCards on different sites that I was >> talking about recently on this list. If anyone can come up with more >> real-world use-cases for this type of cross-site uF linkage, I'd be >> most grateful. Looking further ahead (wrong list for that, I know) >> I'd see good mashup opportunities from allowing more uF >> interlinkage... =0) > > interesting ... but the extra complexity that would add to parsers > (requiring them to do the extra requests) would be a problem.. also > what about pages being looked at offline? From lucapost at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 01:53:41 2007 From: lucapost at gmail.com (LucaP) Date: Wed Oct 10 01:53:46 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator's support for Include-pattern in hcards ? Message-ID: Sure, just try exporting any contact with a double name from the table found at: http://www.bo.ingv.it/contents/INGV-Bologna/Staff.html when added in OS X Address Book such contacts have an empty name; while exporting them to yahoo contacts works correctly. ...not sure it's an OS X bug though, since even in Operator's Debug tab family-name and given-name are missing for such contacts. >If you could out a testcase up, that would be great. From uf-discuss at cilux.org Wed Oct 10 02:30:50 2007 From: uf-discuss at cilux.org (Duncan Cragg) Date: Wed Oct 10 02:30:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Cross-Page Includes (was: OBJECT include pattern and excess HTTP requests) In-Reply-To: <60C2FC33-FEA8-4D6F-838B-513FEBE62F6D@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <80F6BDE8-95F5-4F46-BB7A-039AD8549581@ben-ward.co.uk> <5b5fe14a0710090437y30e16373qef7c9b7af088661c@mail.gmail.com> <000701c80ae1$23035740$116bacca@COMCEN> <60C2FC33-FEA8-4D6F-838B-513FEBE62F6D@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <5b5fe14a0710100230o1860a111hef3d8167b51c8996@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/07, Ben Ward wrote: > .. tidy administration .. splitting this thread. > .. including remote content within microformats .. > .. different issues .. > .. important .. stay on track... > Oops. Sorry. =0) Duncan From uf-discuss at cilux.org Wed Oct 10 02:25:54 2007 From: uf-discuss at cilux.org (Duncan Cragg) Date: Wed Oct 10 02:32:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OBJECT include pattern and excess HTTP requests In-Reply-To: <000701c80ae1$23035740$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <80F6BDE8-95F5-4F46-BB7A-039AD8549581@ben-ward.co.uk> <5b5fe14a0710090437y30e16373qef7c9b7af088661c@mail.gmail.com> <000701c80ae1$23035740$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <5b5fe14a0710100225t452cc2d1oa75ecd5396182e81@mail.gmail.com> > > PS It's then just a small step to allow off-page includes, which is > > related to the interlinked hCards on different sites that I was > > talking about recently on this list. If anyone can come up with more > > real-world use-cases for this type of cross-site uF linkage, I'd be > > most grateful. Looking further ahead (wrong list for that, I know) > > I'd see good mashup opportunities from allowing more uF > > interlinkage... =0) > > interesting ... but the extra complexity that would add to parsers > (requiring them to do the extra requests) would be a problem.. also what > about pages being looked at offline? > I said this was the wrong list! =0) Imagine you replaced 'parser' with 'browser' in the above... There could be a case for a parallel stream of work in Microformats. Where, currently, uFs are (very successfully and quite justifiably) pave-the-cowpath of inside-HTML usage, there may be people who would like to reuse these standards in other contexts. That is, outside of a current web page. For example, in REST integration (see my 'REST Dialogues' where I go on about this a lot); or for 'hyperdata' ; bottom-up, small-s semantic Web (see my 'Micro Web' where I go on about this a lot). Don't flame. I know I'm out of line here. :-/ Extending the reach and scope of uFs while not breaking the process that gave birth to them is a tricky proposition. Here at the FT we're thinking about using the uF standards as the basis of a kind of internal data model (hAtom for our news, hCard for our companies - nothing ground-breaking), but we need to pull the standards out from the inside of HTML pages and give them a life of their own, all linked up. (I know if I mention JSON for this I'll be kicked off the list, so I won't do that. =0) The www.ft.com pages at the end of this insanity could have those wandering uFs back where they belong, snugly tucked up in XHTML, with just a POSH link or two between them, to which current in-page-only parsers may stay oblivious. But.. if an hAtom parser could follow links from hfeeds to hentries, that would be excellent, especially when we may have many hfeeds pointing to the same hentries - our search results are just lists without content. Or if an hCard parser could follow links from BT's hCard to the hCards of their CEO, CTO, etc., I'm sure some of our readers would approve, especially if the links went back again from a CEO to their list of board duties. Or what if an hCalendar parser could go from an hCalendar event for the AGM of BT, via an embedded list of links labelled 'attendees', to the /same/ hCards of the CEO and other people known to be attending - even if those hCards are scattered across the Web. There's no need to duplicate hCards or hentries. That's what links are good at. In fact, let's even try to find cowpaths around /linked data/. (Not Linked Data, the big-S version). The Web's full of links, after all... Cheers! Duncan From uf-discuss at cilux.org Wed Oct 10 03:03:38 2007 From: uf-discuss at cilux.org (Duncan Cragg) Date: Wed Oct 10 03:03:43 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b5fe14a0710100303w284b73aemfa85ba0fb0162604@mail.gmail.com> > > The microformats community works on the basis of having the data > > embedded into the HTML. The RDF/SemWeb approach looks to have a > > consistent data model, and then having as many representations as you > > like of that data model. The data model for microformats differs based > > on which tool you use (perhaps it's in a key-value-pair array, or an > > object, or in an XML format) - even though it's getting the same > > syntax (HTML or XHTML). With RDF, you have the same model (subject, > > predicate, object) but with different syntaxes (XML, JSON, > > (X)HTML-with-GRDDL, N3/N-Triples, TriX, the new JavaScript proposal > > that's been circulating on the W3C semantic web mailing list, internal > > memory models, SQL table etc. > > Thats not quite right - the data model for any given microformat is > clear. I think the 'common JSON representation' idea is a good one to > help clarify this. > I may have come late and missed this - what is this 'common JSON representation' of which you speak?? Duncan From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Oct 10 06:32:29 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Oct 10 06:32:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <5b5fe14a0710100303w284b73aemfa85ba0fb0162604@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> <5b5fe14a0710100303w284b73aemfa85ba0fb0162604@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <657AAD37-C5A6-4E0B-B3E6-1D550540E3BA@randomchaos.com> On Oct 10, 2007, at 4:03 AM, Duncan Cragg wrote: >>> The microformats community works on the basis of having the data >>> embedded into the HTML. The RDF/SemWeb approach looks to have a >>> consistent data model, and then having as many representations as >>> you >>> like of that data model. The data model for microformats differs >>> based >>> on which tool you use (perhaps it's in a key-value-pair array, or an >>> object, or in an XML format) - even though it's getting the same >>> syntax (HTML or XHTML). With RDF, you have the same model (subject, >>> predicate, object) but with different syntaxes (XML, JSON, >>> (X)HTML-with-GRDDL, N3/N-Triples, TriX, the new JavaScript proposal >>> that's been circulating on the W3C semantic web mailing list, >>> internal >>> memory models, SQL table etc. >> >> Thats not quite right - the data model for any given microformat is >> clear. I think the 'common JSON representation' idea is a good one to >> help clarify this. > > I may have come late and missed this - what is this 'common JSON > representation' of which you speak?? It's a hypothetical standard syntax for exchanging microformat representations, being discussed on the microformats-dev list (as it would only be used by developers). Just like RDF, it would tell a parser everything about the structure of a schema, but nothing about the meaning. Of course HTML already does that. Peace, Scott From uf-discuss at cilux.org Wed Oct 10 08:43:23 2007 From: uf-discuss at cilux.org (Duncan Cragg) Date: Wed Oct 10 08:43:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <657AAD37-C5A6-4E0B-B3E6-1D550540E3BA@randomchaos.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> <5b5fe14a0710100303w284b73aemfa85ba0fb0162604@mail.gmail.com> <657AAD37-C5A6-4E0B-B3E6-1D550540E3BA@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <5b5fe14a0710100843s72ee1973k986404c926c0ad2e@mail.gmail.com> > > I may have come late and missed this - what is this 'common JSON > > representation' of which you speak?? > > It's a hypothetical standard syntax for exchanging microformat > representations, being discussed on the microformats-dev list (as it > would only be used by developers). Just like RDF, it would tell a > parser everything about the structure of a schema, but nothing about > the meaning. Of course HTML already does that. Cool! Here are some links I followed as a result (in case others, like me, are currently only subscribed to this list): http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2007-October/000367.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2007-August/000353.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2007-March/000245.html http://microjson.org/wiki/JCard http://microformats.org/wiki/json Now, you made a point of stating that it's only for developers and being merely syntax and not semantics. Why is that? If you define hCard in JSON and I get one, I'll know it's an hCard, surely? And would it be considered 'stepping beyond the charter' to make the documentation of JSON Microformats an official part of this 'movement'? Not just for moving them around, but for fetching, with their own URIs and such. I know it's not following after existing practice, but is there an appetite for starting a parallel Microformats exercise doing this kind of thing? That is, taking the excellent work done, distilling data formats, and moving towards a 'hyperdata' proposal, with both XML and JSON forms, and links between them? Cheers! Duncan From lucapost at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 10:41:35 2007 From: lucapost at gmail.com (LucaP) Date: Wed Oct 10 10:41:42 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator's support for Include-pattern in hcards ? Message-ID: I tested the export under Windows: family-name ends up in the name field and viceversa (given-name into the surname field), two-words names get splitted on the space-char half of it ends up in the surname half remains in the name. From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Oct 10 13:15:34 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Oct 10 13:15:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] semantic web and microformats In-Reply-To: <5b5fe14a0710100843s72ee1973k986404c926c0ad2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710090858v2f9e9b1fy677f29516cc63487@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160710091149v7511e223y8206a1bc636ae424@mail.gmail.com> <5b5fe14a0710100303w284b73aemfa85ba0fb0162604@mail.gmail.com> <657AAD37-C5A6-4E0B-B3E6-1D550540E3BA@randomchaos.com> <5b5fe14a0710100843s72ee1973k986404c926c0ad2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <68D51554-B965-4005-99D2-42C224897C05@randomchaos.com> On Oct 10, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Duncan Cragg wrote: > Now, you made a point of stating that it's only for developers and > being merely syntax and not semantics. > > Why is that? If you define hCard in JSON and I get one, I'll know it's > an hCard, surely? You will, but only because you already know what "vcard" means. That definition is not included in the JSON document anywhere. So to make a tool do something useful with the JSON representation of hCard, you'd need to give it hCard-specific instructions for hCard. And the same is true of RDF. To say that RDF parsers can parse any RDF is like saying a six year old can read all words. That's true on some level, but it's also useless on that level. The important part is understanding. > And would it be considered 'stepping beyond the charter' to make the > documentation of JSON Microformats an official part of this > 'movement'? Not just for moving them around, but for fetching, with > their own URIs and such. > > I know it's not following after existing practice, but is there an > appetite for starting a parallel Microformats exercise doing this kind > of thing? That is, taking the excellent work done, distilling data > formats, and moving towards a 'hyperdata' proposal, with both XML and > JSON forms, and links between them? There is, on the -dev list. I'd encourage you to continue this discussion there so that people who don't care about these topics need not be bothered by them. Peace, Scott From patcito at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 15:20:27 2007 From: patcito at gmail.com (Patrick Aljord) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:20:31 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for dummies Message-ID: <6b6419750710111520v64a5f37ehdabf6da5ac58c75d@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, I was wondering how to explain microformats and what it brings to people that have no knowledge of HTML and what html tags are. Normally I would explain it as adding semantics or ontologies to your html tags. But I have to present microformats to a crowd that doesn't have any knowledge of HTML or programing in general and don't know what a HTML tag is in the first place. I could talk about how adding "keywords" to webpages, invisible to the human eye but visible to the "machine" so that it can help us accomplish tasks and find data more quickly but that doesn't sound very good. If you have any ideas where I could start I would appreciate greatly. thanx in advance Pat From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Thu Oct 11 16:19:15 2007 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:19:29 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume use of hCalendar and 'summary' element requirement of vevents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <519fa62f0710111619l70f2cecep9cea0b299f3b9eeb@mail.gmail.com> Aloha folks, My hResume marked-up resume at http://jeffmcneill.com/microformats/hresume-jeffmcneill.html is getting validation errors in Operator because I do not have a 'summary' element for the education and service list items. I am using the markup to identify titles and an additional 'summary' would be redundant or unnecessary in terms of information provided. I read in a previous discussion somewhere that 'summary' is not officially required by the iCalendar spec. Would this be a case when it could be disregarded, or is it possible to make it optional as part of hCalendar? Or is there a suggested way of nesting the markup to prevent redundancy? (I would like to point out that in the Allsopp Microformats book on p. 215 there is precisely the 'summary' element missing in the 'vevent education' example in the second list item.) I would be grateful for any thoughts on this. -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ From john at westciv.com Thu Oct 11 17:35:53 2007 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Thu Oct 11 17:41:21 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for dummies In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710111520v64a5f37ehdabf6da5ac58c75d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710111520v64a5f37ehdabf6da5ac58c75d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84E868EF-924E-4198-84A3-B1EB8221BB72@westciv.com> Pat, > I was wondering how to explain microformats and what it brings to > people that have no knowledge of HTML and what html tags are. Normally > I would explain it as adding semantics or ontologies to your html > tags. But I have to present microformats to a crowd that doesn't have > any knowledge of HTML or programing in general and don't know what a > HTML tag is in the first place point them to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjp4BaJOd0M j From horsepigcow at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 17:53:23 2007 From: horsepigcow at gmail.com (Tara Hunt) Date: Thu Oct 11 17:53:25 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for dummies In-Reply-To: <84E868EF-924E-4198-84A3-B1EB8221BB72@westciv.com> References: <6b6419750710111520v64a5f37ehdabf6da5ac58c75d@mail.gmail.com> <84E868EF-924E-4198-84A3-B1EB8221BB72@westciv.com> Message-ID: <310024cb0710111753u6d0ee2a4y40f4a35ade19ccdf@mail.gmail.com> That's an awesome video, John! Which makes me think that we should ask Lee Lefevre really nicely whether he would put together a 'Microformats In Plain English' video for the community? Usually he charges big bucks, but he's a community guy and may recognize the value in this. For his former work: http://www.commoncraft.com/video-googledocs http://www.commoncraft.com/rss_plain_english http://www.commoncraft.com/video-wikis-plain-english Tara On 10/11/07, John Allsopp wrote: > Pat, > > > I was wondering how to explain microformats and what it brings to > > people that have no knowledge of HTML and what html tags are. Normally > > I would explain it as adding semantics or ontologies to your html > > tags. But I have to present microformats to a crowd that doesn't have > > any knowledge of HTML or programing in general and don't know what a > > HTML tag is in the first place > > point them to this > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjp4BaJOd0M > > j > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- tara 'miss rogue' hunt co-founder & CMO Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com) blog: www.horsepigcow.com phone: 415-694-1951 fax: 415-727-5335 From andr3.pt at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 18:37:24 2007 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Thu Oct 11 18:37:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for dummies In-Reply-To: <310024cb0710111753u6d0ee2a4y40f4a35ade19ccdf@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710111520v64a5f37ehdabf6da5ac58c75d@mail.gmail.com> <84E868EF-924E-4198-84A3-B1EB8221BB72@westciv.com> <310024cb0710111753u6d0ee2a4y40f4a35ade19ccdf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tara, That would be awesome. I have made a shy attempt at it (http://andr3.net/blog/post/104) but my screencasting skills are so very poor! I will leave it to the pros. It would be awesome to have something like those examples for microformats. (and non-english speaking folks) From my own experience, it's not enough to do a video demo. It should be engaging and interesting... so that it would circulate on blogs, emails, etc. And Patrick, I would start with something along the lines of that video. Introduce the general concept, which is to bring out the data in the pages. It's not just "pages" anymore. We can extract pieces of relevant data from some of them... All you, the users, need to worry about is how you can use this to your advantage. (go on explaining how it's done today) Leave out the technical jargon as much as possible :) Cheers, Andr? Lu?s On 10/12/07, Tara Hunt wrote: > That's an awesome video, John! > > Which makes me think that we should ask Lee Lefevre really nicely > whether he would put together a 'Microformats In Plain English' video > for the community? Usually he charges big bucks, but he's a community > guy and may recognize the value in this. > > For his former work: > > http://www.commoncraft.com/video-googledocs > http://www.commoncraft.com/rss_plain_english > http://www.commoncraft.com/video-wikis-plain-english > > Tara > > On 10/11/07, John Allsopp wrote: > > Pat, > > > > > I was wondering how to explain microformats and what it brings to > > > people that have no knowledge of HTML and what html tags are. Normally > > > I would explain it as adding semantics or ontologies to your html > > > tags. But I have to present microformats to a crowd that doesn't have > > > any knowledge of HTML or programing in general and don't know what a > > > HTML tag is in the first place > > > > point them to this > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjp4BaJOd0M > > > > j > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > > > > -- > tara 'miss rogue' hunt > co-founder & CMO > Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com) > blog: www.horsepigcow.com > phone: 415-694-1951 > fax: 415-727-5335 > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From patcito at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 19:15:34 2007 From: patcito at gmail.com (Patrick Aljord) Date: Thu Oct 11 19:22:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for dummies In-Reply-To: References: <6b6419750710111520v64a5f37ehdabf6da5ac58c75d@mail.gmail.com> <84E868EF-924E-4198-84A3-B1EB8221BB72@westciv.com> <310024cb0710111753u6d0ee2a4y40f4a35ade19ccdf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b6419750710111915h5386b2f4ve3826b9904ce0607@mail.gmail.com> Thanx a lot for your tips, I forgot to mention I can't use visual tools for my presentation (yes that sucks) so if you have something more textual keep it coming :) I did a little fugly screencast a while ago about microformats here: http://ascian.fr/screencasts/microformats.ogg From john at westciv.com Thu Oct 11 20:35:49 2007 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Thu Oct 11 20:41:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for dummies In-Reply-To: <310024cb0710111753u6d0ee2a4y40f4a35ade19ccdf@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b6419750710111520v64a5f37ehdabf6da5ac58c75d@mail.gmail.com> <84E868EF-924E-4198-84A3-B1EB8221BB72@westciv.com> <310024cb0710111753u6d0ee2a4y40f4a35ade19ccdf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <89A369A0-F15C-494F-8EF3-80F7EC58E63A@westciv.com> Tara, > That's an awesome video, John! thanks, but it's all Ian's work > Which makes me think that we should ask Lee Lefevre really nicely > whether he would put together a 'Microformats In Plain English' video > for the community? Usually he charges big bucks, but he's a community > guy and may recognize the value in this. > > For his former work: > > http://www.commoncraft.com/video-googledocs > http://www.commoncraft.com/rss_plain_english > http://www.commoncraft.com/video-wikis-plain-english they look well cool! Great idea j > > Tara > > On 10/11/07, John Allsopp wrote: >> Pat, >> >>> I was wondering how to explain microformats and what it brings to >>> people that have no knowledge of HTML and what html tags are. >>> Normally >>> I would explain it as adding semantics or ontologies to your html >>> tags. But I have to present microformats to a crowd that doesn't >>> have >>> any knowledge of HTML or programing in general and don't know what a >>> HTML tag is in the first place >> >> point them to this >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjp4BaJOd0M >> >> j >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > > > > -- > tara 'miss rogue' hunt > co-founder & CMO > Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com) > blog: www.horsepigcow.com > phone: 415-694-1951 > fax: 415-727-5335 > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From chucka at hr-xml.org Thu Oct 11 21:09:50 2007 From: chucka at hr-xml.org (Chuck Allen) Date: Thu Oct 11 21:09:57 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformats for dummies In-Reply-To: <6b6419750710111915h5386b2f4ve3826b9904ce0607@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <031c01c80c85$bcc0ba30$6501a8c0@tinydell> Patrick, It might not meet the criteria of "no html knowledge" required, but I like Roger Costello's series of Microformat tutorials. See: http://www.xfront.com/microformats/ -- Chuck Allen Director, HR-XML Consortium, Inc. ---------------------- From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 00:57:00 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Oct 12 00:57:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume use of hCalendar and 'summary' element requirement of vevents In-Reply-To: <519fa62f0710111619l70f2cecep9cea0b299f3b9eeb@mail.gmail.com> References: <519fa62f0710111619l70f2cecep9cea0b299f3b9eeb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780710120057x10094298n2cb054f5d2c671f6@mail.gmail.com> On 10/11/07, Jeff McNeill wrote: > Aloha folks, > > My hResume marked-up resume at > http://jeffmcneill.com/microformats/hresume-jeffmcneill.html is > getting validation errors in Operator because I do not have a > 'summary' element for the education and service list items. I am using > the markup to identify titles and an additional > 'summary' would be redundant or unnecessary in terms of information > provided. --- why not use title and summary on the same element? like this:
  • PhD, Communication & Information Sciences University of Hawaii at Manoa, 2008
    • -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Oct 12 02:30:17 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Oct 12 02:30:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] can a vevent have a location start and a location end (from IRC ) Message-ID: <31432.80.249.57.38.1192181417.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Further to this discussion on IRC: please see the proposed extension to the Geo microformat, for marking up sets of waypoints, routes and tracks: -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Fri Oct 12 04:18:18 2007 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Fri Oct 12 04:18:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume use of hCalendar and 'summary' element requirement of vevents In-Reply-To: <21e770780710120057x10094298n2cb054f5d2c671f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <519fa62f0710111619l70f2cecep9cea0b299f3b9eeb@mail.gmail.com> <21e770780710120057x10094298n2cb054f5d2c671f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <519fa62f0710120418x71abfd24h9fb2723baef49bf4@mail.gmail.com> Why, um, that is an excellent idea. **smacks head with microformats book** Thank you Brian. -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ On 10/11/07, Brian Suda wrote: > On 10/11/07, Jeff McNeill wrote: > > Aloha folks, > > > > My hResume marked-up resume at > > http://jeffmcneill.com/microformats/hresume-jeffmcneill.html is > > getting validation errors in Operator because I do not have a > > 'summary' element for the education and service list items. I am using > > the markup to identify titles and an additional > > 'summary' would be redundant or unnecessary in terms of information > > provided. > > --- why not use title and summary on the same element? like this: >
  • > PhD, Communication & Information Sciences > > University of > Hawaii at Manoa, > > 2008 >
    • > > > -- > brian suda > http://suda.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 12:35:30 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Oct 12 12:35:34 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [uf-new] Mapping Microformats to RDFa In-Reply-To: <470FBBC9.9060609@digitalbazaar.com> References: <470FBBC9.9060609@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <21e770780710121235ie056639h340aa998832247d1@mail.gmail.com> On 10/12/07, Manu Sporny wrote: > We've started an initiative to map all of the current Microformats that > are in the draft or spec stage to RDFa vocabularies. --- it should be noted that this is the new-list, this message is probably get more interest on the discuss-list. Also, there is the same discussion on going on the RDFa mailing list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0113.html As Ivan Herman replied on that list, GRDDL handles much of what you are looking for as well and much of those Microformats -> RDF conversions already exist. We should avoid duplicating efforts as much as possible. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Fri Oct 12 12:52:33 2007 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Fri Oct 12 12:52:39 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [uf-new] Mapping Microformats to RDFa In-Reply-To: <21e770780710121235ie056639h340aa998832247d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <470FBBC9.9060609@digitalbazaar.com> <21e770780710121235ie056639h340aa998832247d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470FD081.7090906@digitalbazaar.com> Brian Suda wrote: > Also, there is the same discussion on going on the RDFa mailing list: > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0113.html > > As Ivan Herman replied on that list, GRDDL handles much of what you > are looking for as well and much of those Microformats -> RDF > conversions already exist. Great! Where are they? Are the transformations only available as XSL stylesheets? If so, they're not very useful as a quick-reference for publishers... are they? Are you talking about this: http://esw.w3.org/topic/CustomRdfDialects In which case: The hcard2rdf.xsl is licensed under CC-non-commercial, which makes it useless to any company wanting to implement this stuff in their products. hreview2rdfxml.xsl is a 404. There are no mappings for hCalendar, hAtom, or hResume, etc... what am I missing? Apologies - I'm not that familiar with GRDDL tools that are available... do you have some good links to GRDDL tools? -- manu From chris.messina at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 17:43:12 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Fri Oct 12 17:43:15 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Backnetwork Lab - XFN pagination In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01243483@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01243483@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <1bc4603e0710121743h4e8385d9w22443bfff08202f3@mail.gmail.com> This is cool but it seems like it broke after hitting one contact/hcard... http://lab.backnetwork.com/xfnpagination/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Ffactoryjoe&output=Json&callback=&report=on Also, do you look for rel-next/rel-prev or rel-me or both? i.e.: Next Chris On 10/5/07, Glenn Jones wrote: > Few weeks ago I watched Tantek give a demonstration of the Plaxo open > social graph which is a rel="me" spider. It reminded me how powerful > practical demonstrations are at communicating concepts. > > So I have built lab.backnetwork.com with the idea of constructing a > number of service based interfaces to demonstrate some key concepts that > are currently under discussion. I am really interested in focusing on > the portable social network area, so I have start with a very simple > example of XFN pagination using rel="next". > > http://lab.backnetwork.com/xfnpagination/ > > I am hoping to fellow this with a second interface which can parse the > XFN/hcard pattern > (http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability). > > Any feedback or comments would be welcome > > > Glenn Jones > http://www.glennjones.net/ > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Advocate-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 IM: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From chris.messina at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 17:48:00 2007 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Fri Oct 12 17:48:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OpenID delegation and XFN Message-ID: <1bc4603e0710121748i5cbc03a7x7d972b82efc9424e@mail.gmail.com> Will Norris made a great suggesting for making OpenID delegation links compatible with XFN rel-me links. I actually think that it's okay to use 's in the header of a document to point to other social networks and so on... I understand that this is not kosher with marking up visible data, but if it's going to be there anyway (and it's part of the OpenID spec) we might as well markup the links in the microformats format: Chris -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Advocate-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 IM: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From tom at tommorris.org Fri Oct 12 18:18:05 2007 From: tom at tommorris.org (Tom Morris) Date: Fri Oct 12 18:24:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OpenID delegation and XFN In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0710121748i5cbc03a7x7d972b82efc9424e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1bc4603e0710121748i5cbc03a7x7d972b82efc9424e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/13/07, Chris Messina wrote: > Will Norris made a great suggesting for making OpenID delegation links > compatible with XFN rel-me links. I actually think that it's okay to > use 's in the header of a document to point to other social > networks and so on... I understand that this is not kosher with > marking up visible data, but if it's going to be there anyway (and > it's part of the OpenID spec) we might as well markup the links in the > microformats format: > > > > Thoughts on this? I know that I'll get push back, but logically why not this? > > > > Logically, sure, fine. Practically, one might need to check that OpenID libraries are parsing the HTML properly (the XFN tools will be fine, since they are coded with multiple values in mind) - the programmer may have neglected to look for space-separated values inside the rel value. I know I'd have to edit the source of an OpenID function I wrote a while back. GrokXFN.xsl (the GRDDL parser for XFN) only looks in 'a' elements for XFN links. I'm not sure about other parsers (and it's 2am, so I'm not lookin'...) I think it's a good idea. Visible meta-data is a good idea, but not an absolute requirement. (Of course, all data is visible - 'View Source'). Putting microformats on head/link elements is fine, in my book. The more data, the merrier. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 19:21:40 2007 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Sat Oct 13 00:49:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] OpenID delegation and XFN In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0710121748i5cbc03a7x7d972b82efc9424e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1bc4603e0710121748i5cbc03a7x7d972b82efc9424e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: According to [1] it's fine sticking rel attribute in link elements so I don't see why not, generally. But read on. I would even extend the question why not adding rev="me" since that url should be mine as well.... but,this [2] proved me wrong.. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#edef-LINK [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#Should_rev_even_be_used I would like to add though, that the only situation where I see this making sense would be when the user would like to have a certain page related with all others social networks ( or more general, his/her presences on the web) and not show that information. (just hiding it with css smells funny to me). Summarizing: Case #1: User wants to connect his page with a bunch of others but doesn't want that explicitly stated on the page => user includes s with rel="me" attribute. Case #2; User wants to create a landing page for himself and explicitly state his other presences out in the open, for everyone to see => user includes with rel="me" attribute. Final Note: This could bring problems to certain implementations that would search the DOM document for all elements and not and . I'm not sure whether this situation has been discussed earlier in the list or is in the wiki. If so, I'd be thankful if someone could point me there. Cheers, Andr? Lu?s On 10/13/07, Chris Messina wrote: > Will Norris made a great suggesting for making OpenID delegation links > compatible with XFN rel-me links. I actually think that it's okay to > use 's in the header of a document to point to other social > networks and so on... I understand that this is not kosher with > marking up visible data, but if it's going to be there anyway (and > it's part of the OpenID spec) we might as well markup the links in the > microformats format: > > > > Thoughts on this? I know that I'll get push back, but logically why not this? > > > > > Chris > > -- > Chris Messina > Citizen Provocateur & > Open Source Advocate-at-Large > Work: http://citizenagency.com > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog > Cell: 412 225-1051 > IM: factoryjoe > This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From tom at tommorris.org Sat Oct 13 02:36:26 2007 From: tom at tommorris.org (Tom Morris) Date: Sat Oct 13 04:24:59 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [uf-new] Mapping Microformats to RDFa In-Reply-To: <470FD081.7090906@digitalbazaar.com> References: <470FBBC9.9060609@digitalbazaar.com> <21e770780710121235ie056639h340aa998832247d1@mail.gmail.com> <470FD081.7090906@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/07, Manu Sporny wrote: > Great! Where are they? Are the transformations only available as XSL > stylesheets? If so, they're not very useful as a quick-reference for > publishers... are they? > Brian is referring to the RDFa folks rewriting microformats in RDFa, which seems like a non-optimal route to take - it's much better to publish microformats in the microformat syntax, and then use the profile attribute to point GRDDL processors in the right direction. Publishing microformats as RDFa seems like a terrific way to ensure that only RDFa tools can read them. Follow current practice and all that... ;) > The hcard2rdf.xsl is licensed under CC-non-commercial, which makes it > useless to any company wanting to implement this stuff in their products. > I'm not sure why it would be a problem. You can implement a commercial GRDDL processor that pulls in transformation stylesheets from any number of sources. The licensing issues would be irrelevant. Just as you don't have to get a license to go to a webpage, you don't need a license to load a GRDDL stylesheet off the web and run it. That said, it may be an idea for GRDDL stylesheets to be released with the least restrictive licenses one can - like a LGPL type license. > hreview2rdfxml.xsl is a 404. > The link is just broken. The actual XSLT is: http://dannyayers.com/xslt/hreview2rdfxml.xsl > There are no mappings for hCalendar, hAtom, or hResume, etc... what am I > missing? Apologies - I'm not that familiar with GRDDL tools that are > available... do you have some good links to GRDDL tools? > http://triplr.org is a nice example of a GRDDL tool - and the W3C maintain a reference implementation at http://www.w3.org/2007/08/grddl/ The W3C also publish glean.py, a GRDDL implementation in Python: http://www.w3.org/2003/g/glean.py As for stylesheets for other microformats, I'm sure that people will get around to writing them. I had a bash at vote-links recently: http://tommorris.org/profiles/votelinks If you use vote-links on any of your pages, feel free to add this URL to the profile attribute of the page to make your vote-links available in RDF space. I'll have a crack at writing some more microformat GRDDL stylesheets, specifically focused on elemental microformats. hResume, for instance, looks like a nice challenge. What would help would be if microformats.org could give some URI-space to hold some official profile URIs, like: http://profiles.microformats.org/ (for all) http://profiles.microformats.org/hcard http://profiles.microformats.org/hcalendar http://profiles.microformats.org/xfn etc. These would just be simple pages written in valid XHTML 1.0, containing a link in the head to the relevant transformation and a link in the body to the relevant specification page on the wiki. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Oct 13 05:12:50 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Oct 13 05:15:01 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [uf-new] Mapping Microformats to RDFa In-Reply-To: References: <470FBBC9.9060609@digitalbazaar.com> <21e770780710121235ie056639h340aa998832247d1@mail.gmail.com> <470FD081.7090906@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: In message , Tom Morris writes >Brian is referring to the RDFa folks rewriting microformats in RDFa, >which seems like a non-optimal route to take - it's much better to >publish microformats in the microformat syntax, and then use the >profile attribute to point GRDDL processors in the right direction. >Publishing microformats as RDFa seems like a terrific way to ensure >that only RDFa tools can read them. Follow current practice and all >that... ;) And for those of us who publish HTML4.01, not XHTML..? -- Andy Mabbett From tom at tommorris.org Sat Oct 13 05:58:45 2007 From: tom at tommorris.org (Tom Morris) Date: Sat Oct 13 06:24:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [uf-new] Mapping Microformats to RDFa In-Reply-To: References: <470FBBC9.9060609@digitalbazaar.com> <21e770780710121235ie056639h340aa998832247d1@mail.gmail.com> <470FD081.7090906@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On 10/13/07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > And for those of us who publish HTML4.01, not XHTML..? > Well, those implementing the GRDDL standard MAY use Tidy or a similar HTML parsing library to turn HTML 4 in to XHTML 1.0, then parse XHTML 1.0 using XSLT. The HTML 5 people also have html5lib and other parsing libraries, which one could implement. The GRDDL specification defines the transformation process for XHTML and XML, but HTML can be authored in the same way as XHTML for GRDDL. I have put this infomration on the wiki page: http://microformats.org/wiki/grddl "Restricting GRDDL to XHTML would seem to be unnecessarily limiting." (from the wiki page) GRDDL is not restricted to XHTML. The GRDDL standard specifies that GRDDL is for XHTML, but HTML 4 can be used with GRDDL so long as the parsing agent supports HTML 4. If GRDDL was restricted to XHTML, then the specification would state that GRDDL implementations must not parse HTML 4. GRDDL processors ought to support XHTML, since that is in the specification - but they may support HTML as well. It may not be technically possible for some GRDDL processors to parse HTML 4, so it's not a requirement. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From scott at randomchaos.com Sat Oct 13 09:21:12 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sat Oct 13 09:21:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [uf-new] Mapping Microformats to RDFa In-Reply-To: References: <470FBBC9.9060609@digitalbazaar.com> <21e770780710121235ie056639h340aa998832247d1@mail.gmail.com> <470FD081.7090906@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2007, at 3:36 AM, Tom Morris wrote: > Publishing microformats as > RDFa seems like a terrific way to ensure that only RDFa tools can > read them. There is no technical reason RDF couldn't be converted into microformats just as easily as microformats are converted into RDF. Let's not create political reasons by manufacturing an unnecessary tension between the two. Peace, Scott From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Oct 13 10:58:04 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Oct 13 10:59:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki page "implementations" now sub-divided Message-ID: I have split the wiki page "implementors": from the existing, over-long "implementations" page: Each may need some tweaking. -- Andy Mabbett From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Sun Oct 14 22:41:44 2007 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Sun Oct 14 22:41:48 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite nesting (citation/bibliography/collection/collections) Message-ID: <519fa62f0710142241v7d86053ftce765327cb7b693f@mail.gmail.com> Aloha microformaters, Individual citations are often collected within a document as a bibliography (references). Bibliographies from the library/institutional perspective are organized in collections (either the references or the actual items referenced. Another example of collections of references would be the references across a number of papers, collected as a group. Question: is there a set of semantic containers that could identify a bibliography within a given document, as well as a collection of bibliographies across documents? -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Sun Oct 14 22:42:17 2007 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Sun Oct 14 22:42:20 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite intra-document reference Message-ID: <519fa62f0710142242u27d57bd2pd61718cc6885bae6@mail.gmail.com> Aloha microformaters, Within given documents, especially academic journals articles, but also widely used in books, there are citations 'in-line', such as APA format (Author, YEAR), which are intra-document references to a more complete bibliography/references, at the end of articles, chapters, books, or proceedings. (Sometimes references are referred to by a footnote.) Would it be plausible to use an include pattern[1] to provide in-line citation and more complete citation/bibliographic reference? This would also support the wikiref template for mediawiki[2]. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Wikiref -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Sun Oct 14 23:24:40 2007 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Sun Oct 14 23:24:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite nesting (citation/bibliography/collection/collections) In-Reply-To: <519fa62f0710142241v7d86053ftce765327cb7b693f@mail.gmail.com> References: <519fa62f0710142241v7d86053ftce765327cb7b693f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <471307A8.7090804@googlemail.com> Jeff McNeill wrote: > Question: is there a set of semantic > containers that could identify a bibliography within a given document, > as well as a collection of bibliographies across documents? What's wrong with...