From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Sep 1 00:04:23 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Sep 1 00:05:32 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Need for plain-language intros for each microformat In-Reply-To: <$jSVxw+7tz1GFwfD@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <$jSVxw+7tz1GFwfD@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <$jSVxw+7tz1GFwfD@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett writes >In message , Tantek ?elik > writes >>Syntactically the URI would still work, however, semantically it would have >>been broken, that is, it is bad to not only change URIs so that they 404 and >>just plain don't work, but it is also bad to change the *meaning* of that >>URI. > >On the contrary, the meaning of the URL would remain the same, and be >more relevant to the content at that URL. For example: > > > >is "the wiki page about the hCard microformat", with no reference to >the specification; that would be: > > > > >>As Brian pointed out, the URLs for hCard, hCalendar, hReview etc. all *mean* >>the *specification*. > >That's an assertion, for which you have provided no evidence; I'm >calling you on it (see also above). Points neatly underlined by the existence and use of: -- Andy Mabbett * Say "NO!" to compulsory UK ID Cards: * Free Our Data: * Are you using Microformats, yet: ? From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sun Sep 2 12:56:29 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sun Sep 2 12:57:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] IMDb contact wanted (for advocacy) In-Reply-To: References: <51990.80.249.57.38.1188569923.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: In message , Scott Reynen writes >On Aug 31, 2007, at 8:18 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> I'd like to do some advocacy work with the Internet Movie Database, >You may have already found these: > >http://imdb.com/help/licensing/contact >http://imdb.com/helpdesk/contact Thank you; I tried the latter, but all I received by way of response was a boilerplate "Thank you for your interest..." type reply. I think a named contact is needed; based on previous experience with large companies who use such techniques. (Idiotically, they don't e-mail the reply, but send a URL where you can read it on their website). >Here's a similar site to IMDB you may also want to approach: > >http://jameshome.com/freebase/fmdb/ Thanks, but that appears to be password protected. -- Andy Mabbett From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sun Sep 2 15:38:00 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sun Sep 2 15:37:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCite status and next steps In-Reply-To: <200708311317.13790.mail@jasoncalabrese.com> Message-ID: On 8/31/07 1:17 PM, "Jason Calabrese" wrote: > I'm going to be using hCite in 1 of the products that I work on. > > Since it will be only used interally for now I'm not going to wait for it to > become a recommended specification. I do plan to stay current though. > > It looks like there are 3 primary issues now. > > 1) Identifiers > 2) Types/Formats > 3) Nesting > > We're going use the uid class with nested type/id elements for identifiers. > For my use the type/format and citation nesting aren't needed so I'm going to > ignore them for now. > > Are there any other open issues? What is being done to resolve the issues? > Let me know how I can help. Hi Jason, Since the citation microformat is still very much underdevelopment, I'm redirecting your query to the microformats-new mailing list, where formats in progress are discussed. Please sign up on microformats-new. http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#microformats-new Thanks much! Tantek From karl at w3.org Sun Sep 2 19:12:21 2007 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Sun Sep 2 19:13:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] IMDb contact wanted (for advocacy) In-Reply-To: <51990.80.249.57.38.1188569923.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <51990.80.249.57.38.1188569923.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <5F1922B9-B523-4258-B7E5-077CD952A87C@w3.org> Andy Mabbett (31 ao?t 2007 - 23:18) : > I'd like to do some advocacy work with the Internet Movie Database, > but > they don't advertise any useful contacts on their website. Does anyone > have one? I'm not sure the initial owners are still working on it from Amazon. The first web version of the database went live on the servers at Cardiff University in Wales. There is a fun bit of e-mail dating back to those days between web interface author, Rob Hartill, and Col Needham, both impressed when the web interface got 100 accesses in a single day. Prior to the latest redesign, the IMDb website has been serving an average of 65 million accesses from over 3.5 million visitors every month. With the improvements and new features added in the redesign, this could well go higher. -- IMDb History http://www.imdb.com/help/show_leaf?history Mon, 03 Sep 2007 02:06:06 GMT Then on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Hartill "He's currently a volunteer fire-fighter with the Country Fire Service and a hobby farmer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_Needham "currently is the managing director of the Internet Movie Database." The access to the full database is available on IMDB Web site, and usable only with a very limited license. http://www.imdb.com/interfaces -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** From jamie at jkg3.com Sun Sep 2 04:07:33 2007 From: jamie at jkg3.com (Jamie Knight) Date: Mon Sep 3 05:39:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <200708280913.l7S9DW0Y007291@microformats.org> References: <200708280913.l7S9DW0Y007291@microformats.org> Message-ID: <4043E0F7-5EDB-4C64-9A1C-E4A018CEB9FE@jkg3.com> hiya, I am not so sure that introducing an extra div / element is the way forward as it is requiring even more of the authors. I was under the impression that part of the idea behind microformats was that the tools were to do the donkey work of the process. I know this isn't wonderfully helpful, as i am not suggesting an alternative (thats for far greater minds than my own) to me the thought of adding a div to my page is alot more of an ask than a few semantic class names. I feel that other may feel the same way. just a few thoughts, ^licks^ Jamie & Lion From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Sep 3 09:38:10 2007 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Sep 3 09:37:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <4043E0F7-5EDB-4C64-9A1C-E4A018CEB9FE@jkg3.com> Message-ID: On 9/2/07 4:07 AM, "Jamie Knight" wrote: > hiya, > > I am not so sure that introducing an extra div / element is the way > forward as it is requiring even more of the authors. I tend to agree with Jamie's assessment. > I was under the > impression that part of the idea behind microformats was that the > tools were to do the donkey work of the process. Certainly one way to put it. ;) Yes one of the goals of microformats is to be a bit more publisher-centric in design rather than parser-centric. That doesn't mean that we try to make things completely no work at all for publishers, because clearly we ask a little of them, but it does mean that we ask less of them than most other standards efforts, which ask publishers to learn new languages etc. See the principles for more on this: http://microformats.org/wiki/principles > I know this isn't wonderfully helpful, as i am not suggesting an > alternative (thats for far greater minds than my own) to me the > thought of adding a div to my page is alot more of an ask than a few > semantic class names. I feel that other may feel the same way. It is not only quite a lot to ask publishers to "add another div" to their pages, but actually undesirable from an overall user experience standpoint. *Publishers* of data can't know beforehand all the ways *users* of that data will want to use it. Hence we ask publishers to mark up data semantically, which enables *general* re-use. Rather than asking them to mark up data semantically and with verbs for *specific* re-uses. > just a few thoughts, > > ^licks^ > > Jamie & Lion Thanks Jamie & Lion. In addition, I found this thread *very* difficult to follow, as at some points it seemed like there were implicit proposals for a taxonomy of possible user actions (a really bad idea to try to solve such a huge problem at this point) or perhaps even a microformat itself for possible user actions for which I've seen no research done etc. As far as discussing microformats user interface in browsers in general, please take a look at: http://microformats.org/wiki/user-interface#Browser_Integration Please consider adding concrete user interface ideas/screenshots, proposals, and even challenges/issues there so that we may have a better record of the "latest" version of a proposal along with critical analysis etc. Tantek From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Sep 3 11:49:55 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Sep 3 11:51:04 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Resoling the "exclusive end date" issue In-Reply-To: <57827.80.86.36.97.1187690813.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <57827.80.86.36.97.1187690813.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <$faV+yVTdF3GFwsY@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <57827.80.86.36.97.1187690813.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>, Andy Mabbett writes >There is an outstanding hCalendar "issue" [...] around the use of >exclusive dtend for whole-day dates [...] which is also one of the >concerns with the misuse of abbr. >One of the proposed remedies is to create a new class in hCalendar (and >other microformats requiring and end date), perhaps "dtendinc" (for >"inclusive date end") or "dtendwhole" (for "whole-day date end"), such >that [...] >parsers are instructed, when exporting iCalendars, to increment the date >in order to generate the exclusive date-end required by iCalendar. >As discussed previously [...] >it would be sensible for this solution to be implemented, subject to the >usual caveats about process and testing, before the watershed formed by >the release of Firefox 3. This would also be in accordance with the stated microformats principle of "lowering barriers for publishers": Is anyone interested in taking this forward? -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Sep 3 15:03:08 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Sep 3 15:04:18 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Resoling the "exclusive end date" issue In-Reply-To: <$faV+yVTdF3GFwsY@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <57827.80.86.36.97.1187690813.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <$faV+yVTdF3GFwsY@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <$faV+yVTdF3GFwsY@pigsonthewing.org.uk>, Andy Mabbett writes >In message <57827.80.86.36.97.1187690813.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>, >Andy Mabbett writes > >>There is an outstanding hCalendar "issue" [...] around the use of >>exclusive dtend for whole-day dates [...] which is also one of the >>concerns with the misuse of abbr. > >>One of the proposed remedies is to create a new class in hCalendar (and >>other microformats requiring and end date), perhaps "dtendinc" (for >>"inclusive date end") or "dtendwhole" (for "whole-day date end"), such >>that [...] >>parsers are instructed, when exporting iCalendars, to increment the date >>in order to generate the exclusive date-end required by iCalendar. > >>As discussed previously [...] >>it would be sensible for this solution to be implemented, subject to the >>usual caveats about process and testing, before the watershed formed by >>the release of Firefox 3. > >This would also be in accordance with the stated microformats principle >of "lowering barriers for publishers": > > Which accordance is not negated by this edit: -- Andy Mabbett From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 19:49:55 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Mon Sep 3 19:49:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] invisible content OK? Message-ID: <6523e39a0709031949r775d0742i9b8cc12bdfb5d3ab@mail.gmail.com> Hi, everybody! I'm a new enthusiast to the Microformats world. I volunteered to present them to our Web Standards meetup ( http://webstandards.meetup.com/122/ ), and now I'm frantically devouring the uF book and making slides. One question I haven't seen addressed is whether it's considered good practice to hide information from the as-displayed webpage while including it in the microformat. For instance, I may be making a chatty, informal blog entry - "We're gonna meet at noon this Wednesday over tacos at Joe's". I want to make it a full, rich hCalendar entry for those who actually want to pull down a vCard for Joe's, yet I don't want to break up the chatty, informal flow of my narrative-style post by visibly including a lot of detail - Joe's zip code, etc. I'm imagining doing this by including tags like span class="street-address" title="123 1st street" style="display:none" A live example is at http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/2007/08/microformats-talk.html (yes, I passed up an opportunity to embed an hReview there - I'm just starting) Is there a better way? Should I not be doing it at all? the uF book mentions that one reason for the demise of META tags is that, since they are invisible, they are rarely properly maintained - that's one cause for doubt. Yet it seems like there ought to be a way to do this. After all, one of the things I love about microformats is that they don't impose restrictions on what you write and how you write it - they can go anywhere HTML can go. Thanks for your thoughts, -- - Catherine http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 23:38:50 2007 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Mon Sep 3 23:38:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] invisible content OK? In-Reply-To: <6523e39a0709031949r775d0742i9b8cc12bdfb5d3ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <6523e39a0709031949r775d0742i9b8cc12bdfb5d3ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780709032338n28d950fdw480b425c8a4f4ce8@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, Catherine Devlin wrote: > Hi, everybody! --- welcome to the list, you have come to the right place to get microformats questions answered. > One question I haven't seen addressed is whether it's considered good > practice to hide information from the as-displayed webpage while > including it in the microformat. --- much of this has been discussed before, a quick search of the mailing list archives pulls up over 100 results. That is probably the best place to start and read-up on the topic. If you still have questions then feel free to ask them here again. http://www.google.com/search?q=site:http://microformats.org/discuss%20hidden%20data There is also an FAQ page, which does not currently have an Q & A for this, feel free to add one and answer it. Then we can all itterate and help the next person to find the answer. http://microformats.org/wiki/faq -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Sep 4 01:11:56 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Sep 4 01:13:53 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] events (was: invisible content OK?) In-Reply-To: <6523e39a0709031949r775d0742i9b8cc12bdfb5d3ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <6523e39a0709031949r775d0742i9b8cc12bdfb5d3ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <6523e39a0709031949r775d0742i9b8cc12bdfb5d3ab@mail.gmail.com>, Catherine Devlin writes >Hi, everybody! Hello. >I'm a new enthusiast to the Microformats world. I volunteered to >present them to our Web Standards meetup ( http://webstandards.meetup.c >om/122/ ) You might like to add that to: -- Andy Mabbett From zen at zenpsycho.com Tue Sep 4 04:27:29 2007 From: zen at zenpsycho.com (Breton Slivka) Date: Tue Sep 4 04:27:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <4043E0F7-5EDB-4C64-9A1C-E4A018CEB9FE@jkg3.com> References: <200708280913.l7S9DW0Y007291@microformats.org> <4043E0F7-5EDB-4C64-9A1C-E4A018CEB9FE@jkg3.com> Message-ID: <27AD6EB1-8B45-4E3F-A27D-1E5128D1830A@zenpsycho.com> sorry for busting in late on this conversation, but let me get this straight, I'm not sure I follow. 1. You guys are proposing a radical change in microformats, and in the way microformats work, and have given us just a week to discuss/ object 2. If radical change is implemented in firefox, all existing microformatted content will fail to work in firefox3 3. said radical change includes inline styles- functionally identical to presentational html tags. 4. In order to play nice with firefox 3, all publishers of microformatted content would need to add extra stuff to their markup. 5. That extra stuff would *only* be necessary for firefox Are any of the above points incorrect? From mejllistor at kodfabrik.se Tue Sep 4 04:50:09 2007 From: mejllistor at kodfabrik.se (Pelle W) Date: Tue Sep 4 04:50:27 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <27AD6EB1-8B45-4E3F-A27D-1E5128D1830A@zenpsycho.com> References: <200708280913.l7S9DW0Y007291@microformats.org> <4043E0F7-5EDB-4C64-9A1C-E4A018CEB9FE@jkg3.com> <27AD6EB1-8B45-4E3F-A27D-1E5128D1830A@zenpsycho.com> Message-ID: <46DD4671.6050303@kodfabrik.se> Breton Slivka wrote: > 1. You guys are proposing a radical change in microformats, and in the > way microformats work, and have given us just a week to discuss/object > 2. If radical change is implemented in firefox, all existing > microformatted content will fail to work in firefox3 > 3. said radical change includes inline styles- functionally identical > to presentational html tags. > 4. In order to play nice with firefox 3, all publishers of > microformatted content would need to add extra stuff to their markup. > 5. That extra stuff would *only* be necessary for firefox It's more of an addition than a radical change to the microformats which enables the designer to add Firefox-actions right into their own design although such actions will always also be available through Firefox own UI and the suggested addition wouldn't change how any existing microformats would work or should work. It would be totally voluntarily. If it would be part of microformat standard it would work in any tool which implements it. Although I think the suggestion that was made at first wasn't that good, the core problem it tries to solve is relevant: A need for a standardized way for a webdesigner to add interaction between the microformatted data and the parsers actions into their own designs. Could the Microformat community come up witha standard way of interacting with the parsers through JavaScripts or perhaps through new URL:s like mailto: or feed: or in another way? Or is such a standard perhaps out of this community's scope? / Pelle W From zen at zenpsycho.com Tue Sep 4 05:43:49 2007 From: zen at zenpsycho.com (Breton Slivka) Date: Tue Sep 4 05:44:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <46DD4671.6050303@kodfabrik.se> References: <200708280913.l7S9DW0Y007291@microformats.org> <4043E0F7-5EDB-4C64-9A1C-E4A018CEB9FE@jkg3.com> <27AD6EB1-8B45-4E3F-A27D-1E5128D1830A@zenpsycho.com> <46DD4671.6050303@kodfabrik.se> Message-ID: Okay well, that's a relief. It's amazing though, that we're talking about enabling designers to design, but have only so far mentioned html, javascript and urls. What about putting the design into the design code: css? Would it not be a simple matter of adding selectors for the firefox mf ui elements? example: x-mozilla-add-hcard { visibility:visible; background:orange; border: 1px solid black; } which would select whatever element is the button/link for adding an hcard. -breton On 04/09/2007, at 9:50 PM, Pelle W wrote: > Breton Slivka wrote: >> 1. You guys are proposing a radical change in microformats, and in >> the way microformats work, and have given us just a week to >> discuss/object >> 2. If radical change is implemented in firefox, all existing >> microformatted content will fail to work in firefox3 >> 3. said radical change includes inline styles- functionally >> identical to presentational html tags. >> 4. In order to play nice with firefox 3, all publishers of >> microformatted content would need to add extra stuff to their markup. >> 5. That extra stuff would *only* be necessary for firefox > It's more of an addition than a radical change to the microformats > which enables the designer to add Firefox-actions right into their > own design although such actions will always also be available > through Firefox own UI and the suggested addition wouldn't change > how any existing microformats would work or should work. It would > be totally voluntarily. If it would be part of microformat standard > it would work in any tool which implements it. > > Although I think the suggestion that was made at first wasn't that > good, the core problem it tries to solve is relevant: A need for a > standardized way for a webdesigner to add interaction between the > microformatted data and the parsers actions into their own designs. > > Could the Microformat community come up witha standard way of > interacting with the parsers through JavaScripts or perhaps through > new URL:s like mailto: or feed: or in another way? Or is such a > standard perhaps out of this community's scope? > > / Pelle W > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Sep 4 07:37:35 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Sep 4 07:37:44 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows Message-ID: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> How would I mark-up the second table row (based on a real-world advocacy example): LongitudeLatitudeHeightFooobarPlace 16.3061.07140zzzWidgetsville with both hCard and geo? The real example has ~50 rows. Is it feasible to wrap each in: ? is there an alternative? (When we have an answer, suitable also for hCalendar and other microformats, I suggest this be added as a FAQ) -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From nick at nickfitz.co.uk Tue Sep 4 08:05:17 2007 From: nick at nickfitz.co.uk ( Nick Fitzsimons) Date: Tue Sep 4 08:05:22 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> > How would I mark-up the second table row (based on a > real-world advocacy > example): > > LongitudeLatitudeHeightFooo > barPlace > > 16.3061.07140zzzWi > dgetsville > > with both hCard and geo? > > The real example has ~50 rows. Is it feasible to wrap each in: > > ? > > is there an alternative? Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the problem with ? Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ From MMontgomery at TerpSys.com Tue Sep 4 08:16:22 2007 From: MMontgomery at TerpSys.com (Montgomery, Mike) Date: Tue Sep 4 08:16:26 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <46B12C75A6CDDA41A9A0114F5A0EE80B0B26C7@tsmail3.terpsys.net> > How would I mark-up the second table row (based on a real-world advocacy > example): > > LongitudeLatitudeHeightFooobar > Place > > 16.3061.07140zzzWidgetsville td> > > with both hCard and geo? > > The real example has ~50 rows. Is it feasible to wrap each in: > > ? > > is there an alternative? Would it be feasible to add the class="vcard" to the instead? Also, just out of curiosity, why you would mark this information as an hcard? I assume that one of the columns would contain a name, email, phone number, etc. and that would be the reason. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you would use class="vcard" instead of just class="geo". If there is a reason, I would like to know for my own reference. Thanks, Mike From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Tue Sep 4 08:22:46 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Tue Sep 4 08:22:50 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: > > LongitudeLatitudeHeightFooo > > barPlace > > 16.3061.07140zzzWi > > dgetsville > > > > with both hCard and geo? > Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the problem with > > I suspect it's the fact the lon/lat need a @class="geo" wrapper. that would have to go on the TR meaning the vcard gets pushed up a level. The lack of anything to wrap table columns in is quite a frustration. -Ciaran McNulty From nick at nickfitz.co.uk Tue Sep 4 08:39:10 2007 From: nick at nickfitz.co.uk ( Nick Fitzsimons) Date: Tue Sep 4 08:39:14 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> > I suspect it's the fact the lon/lat need a @class="geo" wrapper. that > would have to go on the TR meaning the vcard gets pushed up a level. or is that naughty? :-) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Sep 4 08:51:32 2007 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Sep 4 08:51:58 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <46B12C75A6CDDA41A9A0114F5A0EE80B0B26C7@tsmail3.terpsys.net> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <46B12C75A6CDDA41A9A0114F5A0EE80B0B26C7@tsmail3.terpsys.net> Message-ID: <9716.80.249.57.38.1188921092.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Tue, September 4, 2007 16:16, Montgomery, Mike wrote: > >> How would I mark-up the second table row (based on a real-world >> advocacy example): >> >> LongitudeLatitudeHeightFooobar >> Place >> >> 16.3061.07140zzzWidgetsville >> >> >> with both hCard and geo? >> >> The real example has ~50 rows. Is it feasible to wrap each in: >> >> ? >> >> is there an alternative? > > Would it be feasible to add the class="vcard" to the instead? Then what would you wrap with "geo"? > Also, just out of curiosity, why you would mark this information as an > hcard? Geo on its own has no label. By using hCard, and applying class="fn org" to the place-name, the Geo is, in effect, labelled. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From microformats at kaply.com Tue Sep 4 08:58:29 2007 From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply) Date: Tue Sep 4 08:58:33 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 Message-ID: I think some folks here are missing the point in the Microformats/Firefox 3 discussion. We are trying to foster a discussion about what to do with microformats in Firefox 3, we are not trying to tell you what we are going to do. This is a very difficult problem to solve and we need input on it. At this point, the microformats community has primarily been focused on marking up microformats. We want people to start thinking about how to communicate microformats to the user. So here are a few discussion points to get people focused: 1. Microformats UI in the browser needs to be a "transient UI." That is, dedicating permanent space in the browser to a technology that is not available on most sites probably doesn't make much sense (at least at first). What does transient UI in a browser look like? 2. Microformats are in page, and there needs to be some way to indicate the microformats are available on the page that doesn't offend page authors. How can we accomplish this? Discuss. Incidentally, Operator was always intended to be a UI experiment in microformats. I'm finding that most people use the toolbar (probably because it's the default). But there are six different ways to interact with microformats in Operator (http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator). Mike Kaply From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Tue Sep 4 09:29:08 2007 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Tue Sep 4 09:29:12 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: > > I suspect it's the fact the lon/lat need a @class="geo" wrapper. that > > would have to go on the TR meaning the vcard gets pushed up a level. > > > > or is that naughty? :-) I believe that vcard child properties have to be on child HTML nodes. -Ciaran McNulty From andr3.pt at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 09:34:35 2007 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Tue Sep 4 09:34:40 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok Mike. Thanks for clearing it up. I'd like to know one thing... Have you discussed the option of using the notification box as a first notification to the user of the presence of microformats in the current page and _there_ provide a button to reveal them? I've searched but found nothing similar... but what do you guys think? This wouldn't require any permanent space on the UI... and it wouldn't inject anything until an action from the user was performed. (to avoid confusion i mean the notification box like this drawing points out: http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070204-detectionUI/anatomyChrome.jpg_large.jpg) Cheers, Andr? Lu?s On 9/4/07, Mike Kaply wrote: > I think some folks here are missing the point in the > Microformats/Firefox 3 discussion. > > We are trying to foster a discussion about what to do with > microformats in Firefox 3, we are not trying to tell you what we are > going to do. > > This is a very difficult problem to solve and we need input on it. At > this point, the microformats community has primarily been focused on > marking up microformats. We want people to start thinking about how to > communicate microformats to the user. > > So here are a few discussion points to get people focused: > > 1. Microformats UI in the browser needs to be a "transient UI." That > is, dedicating permanent space in the browser to a technology that is > not available on most sites probably doesn't make much sense (at least > at first). What does transient UI in a browser look like? > > 2. Microformats are in page, and there needs to be some way to > indicate the microformats are available on the page that doesn't > offend page authors. How can we accomplish this? > > Discuss. > > Incidentally, Operator was always intended to be a UI experiment in > microformats. I'm finding that most people use the toolbar (probably > because it's the default). But there are six different ways to > interact with microformats in Operator > (http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator). > > Mike Kaply > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Tue Sep 4 10:21:48 2007 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Tue Sep 4 10:21:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DD942C.3060209@googlemail.com> Ciaran McNulty wrote: > The lack of anything to wrap table columns in is quite a frustration. Current microformat parsers may not be able to grok it, but that's precisely what COLGROUP is for: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.4 Admittedly, you can't change column grouping on a TBODY-by-TBODY basis. I wonder if that's worth suggesting for HTML-next. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From supercanadian at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 11:26:44 2007 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Tue Sep 4 11:26:48 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0709041126mcbda1aase6830035cace1f96@mail.gmail.com> Hello Nick, On 9/4/07, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: > > I suspect it's the fact the lon/lat need a @class="geo" wrapper. that > > would have to go on the TR meaning the vcard gets pushed up a level. > > > > or is that naughty? :-) I actually do stuff like that all the time... for things like signatures... it makes it very compact... for example... -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux (It makes it so I don't have to add any extra tags... like 's... and adding hCards is as simple as just adding classes.) I've heard some people complain because... my impression was... that they weren't sure how to style it... but, for example, if you wanted to style the url of an hCard, you could with... .vcard a.url, a.vcard.url { /* style goes here */ } So I'd say do it that way. (Others may disagree though.) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. Vlog Razor... Vlogging News http://vlograzor.com/ From davidjohnmead at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 11:30:57 2007 From: davidjohnmead at gmail.com (David Mead) Date: Tue Sep 4 11:31:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I must say the way I'm using Operator in Flock & Firefox at the moment (using the auto-hide function for the toolbar) is working well for me. I think one way to go is to utilize the same functionality as the "this site wants to open pop-up windows" that Firefox has. A small toolbar-like message that appears above the page, but not seemingly part of the chrome, that informs you there are microformats on the page. This could then disappear after a short time or after a click to "highlight" them on the page or open a sidebar/toolbar to interact with them. I think automatically highlighting by use of a icon (webcards) or change of cursor is cool to start with but I personally tired of it after a while. I would love to see a new button in the URL bar, like Flock has for when there is RSS, media streams or a SE plugin on the page. That is one feature of the new Flock I find I'm using a lot now. I also think there should be something to check in the options panel so I can choose to have any action based on a microformat in the page, open a new tab or window, if it doesn't involve an external application. Maybe that's on a new tab within options where I can set the default handlers for different microformats? I'm really looking forward to this being part of the new Firefox. Dave On 9/4/07, Mike Kaply wrote: > I think some folks here are missing the point in the > Microformats/Firefox 3 discussion. > > We are trying to foster a discussion about what to do with > microformats in Firefox 3, we are not trying to tell you what we are > going to do. > > This is a very difficult problem to solve and we need input on it. At > this point, the microformats community has primarily been focused on > marking up microformats. We want people to start thinking about how to > communicate microformats to the user. > > So here are a few discussion points to get people focused: > > 1. Microformats UI in the browser needs to be a "transient UI." That > is, dedicating permanent space in the browser to a technology that is > not available on most sites probably doesn't make much sense (at least > at first). What does transient UI in a browser look like? > > 2. Microformats are in page, and there needs to be some way to > indicate the microformats are available on the page that doesn't > offend page authors. How can we accomplish this? > > Discuss. > > Incidentally, Operator was always intended to be a UI experiment in > microformats. I'm finding that most people use the toolbar (probably > because it's the default). But there are six different ways to > interact with microformats in Operator > (http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator). > > Mike Kaply > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Mead ------------------------------------------------ www.dmwebsites.com www.viewfromw6th.com www.refreshcleveland.org From ryan at technorati.com Tue Sep 4 11:53:41 2007 From: ryan at technorati.com (Ryan King) Date: Tue Sep 4 11:53:47 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2007, at 8:39 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: >> I suspect it's the fact the lon/lat need a @class="geo" wrapper. >> that >> would have to go on the TR meaning the vcard gets pushed up a level. > > > > or is that naughty? :-) It's not naughty, but it just doesn't mean what you hope it means. :) -ryan From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Sep 4 12:11:05 2007 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Sep 4 12:11:38 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0709041126mcbda1aase6830035cace1f96@mail.gmail.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> <004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> <84ce626f0709041126mcbda1aase6830035cace1f96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <218D83B5-60B4-4168-BC58-CE89690A157A@randomchaos.com> On Sep 4, 2007, at 12:26 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: >> >> >> or is that naughty? :-) > > I actually do stuff like that all the time... for things like > signatures... it makes it very compact... for example... > > -- Charles Iliya > Krempeaux > > (It makes it so I don't have to add any extra tags... like 's... > and adding hCards is as simple as just adding classes.) > > I've heard some people complain because... my impression was... that > they weren't sure how to style it... but, for example, if you wanted > to style the url of an hCard, you could with... Styling is only one practical problem (IE 6, still the most popular browser, doesn't support multi-class selectors). More importantly, I'd say, is the theoretical problem of hierarchy semantics. HTML defines hierarchy by nesting of elements, so that's what microformats do. Putting several classes together in a single element identifies the content of that element as belonging to each class, but it doesn't tell us anything about the hierarchy of those elements. With the markup above, how do we know if FN is a property of vCard or vCard is a property of URL? As the number of atomic microformats and the ways in which they might be nested in each other expands, this will move from a theoretical to a practical problem. We could certainly define our own method of establishing hierarchy, e.g. order of classes, but HTML already has a method that generally works well. In the above example, only one extra is needed to clarify that vCard is the container for the other properties. With tables (and lists) HTML's hierarchy method doesn't work as well because there are nesting limits imposed (e.g. nothing is allowed between and ), but I think we should more thoroughly investigate alternative solutions to this problem (e.g. colgroups), before reinventing the wheel on hierarchy semantics. Peace, Scott From nick at nickfitz.co.uk Tue Sep 4 12:14:42 2007 From: nick at nickfitz.co.uk ( Nick Fitzsimons) Date: Tue Sep 4 12:14:45 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Marking up table rows In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0709041126mcbda1aase6830035cace1f96@mail.gmail.com> References: <41670.80.249.57.38.1188916655.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><004501c7ef05$01398410$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com><004601c7ef09$bce99fc0$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> <84ce626f0709041126mcbda1aase6830035cace1f96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004d01c7ef27$d8baeb00$9b214c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> > > > > > > or is that naughty? :-) > > I actually do stuff like that all the time... for things like > signatures... it makes it very compact... for example... > > -- Charles Iliya > Krempeaux > Strictly speaking it actually isn't correct according to the hCard spec: "The basic format of hCard is to use vCard object/property names in lower-case for class names, and to map the nesting of vCard objects directly into nested XHTML elements" The explicit statment that nesting is to be achieved by the use of nested (X)HTML elements makes it clear that assigning the properties at the same level as the vcard "declaration" (for want of a better word) is not correct. This is confirmed by such statements in the following subsection as "The properties of an hCard are represented by *elements inside* the hCard" and "Some properties have sub-properties, and those are represented by *elements inside* the elements for properties" (my emphasis). On the other hand, is it necessarily a bad thing to use a construct such as

if it doesn't lead to ambiguity? After all, the spec isn't written in stone (it's written in a Wiki, which is pretty much the opposite of being written in stone...) so maybe this restriction could be relaxed? Without giving it the extensive consideration that other, doubtless wiser, heads have already given it I can't be certain that such constructs might not lead to ambiguity to the extent of making it difficult if not impossible for parsers to correctly interpret the structure of an hCard. But if in fact the mimicking of the nested structure of the vCard format need only be represented by a kind of "virtual" nesting within HTML, where the presence of a property name at the same level as its container is taken as implying containment, rather than containment depending on an actual nesting of elements, then perhaps the spec could be relaxed to make it permissible. Something to think about down the pub ;-) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ From microformats at kaply.com Tue Sep 4 12:40:24 2007 From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply) Date: Tue Sep 4 12:40:30 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/4/07, David Mead wrote: > I would love to see a new button in the URL bar, like Flock has for > when there is RSS, media streams or a SE plugin on the page. That is > one feature of the new Flock I find I'm using a lot now. Note that Operator does have a URL button option in 0.8 > I also think there should be something to check in the options panel > so I can choose to have any action based on a microformat in the page, > open a new tab or window, if it doesn't involve an external > application. Maybe that's on a new tab within options where I can set > the default handlers for different microformats? Actually, we honor the Firefox keystrokes for this. Try holding down the Ctrl button when you click on an action or using the middle mouse button. See: http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/mouse Thank you for your comments! Mike From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 13:30:14 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Tue Sep 4 13:30:17 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Mike Kaply wrote: > I think some folks here are missing the point in the > Microformats/Firefox 3 discussion. > > We are trying to foster a discussion about what to do with > microformats in Firefox 3, we are not trying to tell you what we are > going to do. > > This is a very difficult problem to solve and we need input on it. At > this point, the microformats community has primarily been focused on > marking up microformats. We want people to start thinking about how to > communicate microformats to the user. > > So here are a few discussion points to get people focused: > > 1. Microformats UI in the browser needs to be a "transient UI." That > is, dedicating permanent space in the browser to a technology that is > not available on most sites probably doesn't make much sense (at least > at first). What does transient UI in a browser look like? > > 2. Microformats are in page, and there needs to be some way to > indicate the microformats are available on the page that doesn't > offend page authors. How can we accomplish this? > This is not particularly transient, but it addresses #2, methinks: http://glazkov.com/blog/margin-marks/ :DG< From faaborg at mozilla.com Tue Sep 4 13:37:47 2007 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Tue Sep 4 13:37:56 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats UI in Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <27AD6EB1-8B45-4E3F-A27D-1E5128D1830A@zenpsycho.com> References: <200708280913.l7S9DW0Y007291@microformats.org> <4043E0F7-5EDB-4C64-9A1C-E4A018CEB9FE@jkg3.com> <27AD6EB1-8B45-4E3F-A27D-1E5128D1830A@zenpsycho.com> Message-ID: > 1. You guys are proposing a radical change in microformats, and in > the way microformats work As Pelle mentioned, we are discussing the possibility of allowing designers to add UI widgets to act on microformats in the content area. I certainly don't think this constitutes a radical change since they would be optional, and we are working closely with the microformats community to make sure we get it right. > and have given us just a week to discuss/object If these changes land in a release of Operator that we heavily promote at the Firefox 3 launch, then we will have considerably more time to discuss the various options. If the microformats community really wants to see this feature land in Firefox 3, then we unfortunately will need to move rather quickly. > 2. If radical change is implemented in firefox, all existing > microformatted content will fail to work in firefox3 Not at all, these microformats could potentially still show up elsewhere in the browser UI, for instance in a toolbar, or sidebar, or a right click context menu on the microformatted content. > 3. said radical change includes inline styles- functionally > identical to presentational html tags. We are open to all suggestions. Thanks for the css example, I've added it to our list of possible solutions. The user-action-x class, action:// protocol, and navigator.send javascript method were only proposed to get the conversation going. > 4. In order to play nice with firefox 3, all publishers of > microformatted content would need to add extra stuff to their markup. This isn't about a requirement for playing nice with Firefox 3, if Web designers decided they wanted to create buttons to act on their microformatted content, then they would potentially be able to do so. > 5. That extra stuff would *only* be necessary for firefox I would be very happy to see the other browsers add similar support. Unfortunately since they aren't developed in as transparent of a manner, we have no idea if they are currently considering this type of functionality or not. One guaranteed way to get them all to seriously consider adding the feature is for us to ship it in Firefox. I hope that clears things up, and my apologies for the confusion. -Alex On Sep 4, 2007, at 4:27 AM, Breton Slivka wrote: > sorry for busting in late on this conversation, but let me get this > straight, I'm not sure I follow. > > 1. You guys are proposing a radical change in microformats, and in > the way microformats work, and have given us just a week to discuss/ > object > 2. If radical change is implemented in firefox, all existing > microformatted content will fail to work in firefox3 > 3. said radical change includes inline styles- functionally > identical to presentational html tags. > 4. In order to play nice with firefox 3, all publishers of > microformatted content would need to add extra stuff to their markup. > 5. That extra stuff would *only* be necessary for firefox > > > Are any of the above points incorrect? > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 14:24:25 2007 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Tue Sep 4 14:24:28 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Margin Marks UI Concept, was: Microformats and Firefox 3 Message-ID: To keep the threads clean.. Posting this as a separate message. http://glazkov.com/blog/margin-marks/ Comments, discussion appreciated. :DG< From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Tue Sep 4 14:31:06 2007 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Tue Sep 4 14:31:11 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DDCE9A.200@digitalbazaar.com> Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > This is not particularly transient, but it addresses #2, methinks: > > http://glazkov.com/blog/margin-marks/ Mike, Alex - I think you should take a very serious look at Dimitri's Margin Marks idea. Check out the screen mock-ups here: http://flickr.com/photos/dglazkov/sets/72157601860335196/ Implementation would be a bit of a headache, but he has proposed a very elegant solution on, IMHO, the right way to display semantic data items on a web page. It is the best approach that I've seen so far, over all of the UI concepts for Microformats in Firefox 3. This is the same way that Eclipse shows the developer warnings, comments and errors via the code editor. It would do well as a transient UI AND wouldn't be intrusive on the browsing experience when the UI is active. Exciting stuff... -- manu -- Manu Sporny http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/en/haudio-case-study From faaborg at mozilla.com Tue Sep 4 18:44:48 2007 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Tue Sep 4 18:45:00 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <46DDCE9A.200@digitalbazaar.com> References: <46DDCE9A.200@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: I really like this idea, I just forward the post and mockups to the rest of our UX team and our lead engineer. >> This is not particularly transient If the margin marks bar only appeared on pages with recognized content, then I think this would certainly count as being transient. Or, to be even less intrusive, a small mark could indicate content was recognized, and clicking on that could cause the margin marks bar to slide in. Dimitri: this is a great idea and the mockups are really well done, thanks for posting it! -Alex On Sep 4, 2007, at 2:31 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: > Dimitri Glazkov wrote: >> This is not particularly transient, but it addresses #2, methinks: >> >> http://glazkov.com/blog/margin-marks/ > > Mike, Alex - I think you should take a very serious look at Dimitri's > Margin Marks idea. Check out the screen mock-ups here: > > http://flickr.com/photos/dglazkov/sets/72157601860335196/ > > Implementation would be a bit of a headache, but he has proposed a > very > elegant solution on, IMHO, the right way to display semantic data > items > on a web page. It is the best approach that I've seen so far, over all > of the UI concepts for Microformats in Firefox 3. > > This is the same way that Eclipse shows the developer warnings, > comments > and errors via the code editor. It would do well as a transient UI AND > wouldn't be intrusive on the browsing experience when the UI is > active. > Exciting stuff... > > -- manu > > -- > Manu Sporny > http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/en/haudio-case-study > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From microformats at kaply.com Tue Sep 4 20:14:20 2007 From: microformats at kaply.com (Mike Kaply) Date: Tue Sep 4 20:14:24 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: References: <46DDCE9A.200@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Alex Faaborg wrote: > I really like this idea, I just forward the post and mockups to the > rest of our UX team and our lead engineer. > I agree with Alex. This is a really great idea. Thanks for posting. Mike From tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk Wed Sep 5 01:29:33 2007 From: tony.farndon at forestry.gsi.gov.uk (Farndon, Tony) Date: Wed Sep 5 01:30:09 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 Message-ID: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF749@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> > 2. Microformats are in page, and there needs to be some way > to indicate the microformats are available on the page that > doesn't offend page authors. How can we accomplish this? I second the opinion that this is a design issue and therefore should be handled by css in some way. This would fit into the web design paradigm of markup for data, css for design. My slightly different css approach; create custom css property:value pairs, such as that of -moz-border-radius. So some poor examples that give an idea (and would warrant derivation from someone better than I): #hcard1 { -moz-uf-hcard-display: block bottom; //instructs FF3 that the author wishes ff3 to show an hcard icon after the hcard -moz-uf-hcard-margin: 5px; } #hcard2 { -moz-uf-hcard-display: block top; //author wants this icon to be at the top to fit in with page design a little better -moz-uf-map-display: block top; //author wants a view address map icon as well } #hcard3 { -moz-uf-hcard-display: none; //author wants this icon hidden } .hcard { -moz-uf-hcard-icon: icon(thenicesmallgreenicon); //all hcards have the small green icon } .hcard:hover { -moz-uf-hcard-menu: dropdown; //hovering the icon shows an action drop down menu } Tony +++++ The Forestry Commission's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried out on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. +++++ The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus-free From mejllistor at kodfabrik.se Wed Sep 5 04:48:33 2007 From: mejllistor at kodfabrik.se (Pelle W) Date: Wed Sep 5 04:48:52 2007 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF749@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> References: <3A01C7D9687BD6449D9855B9C94A03CB5DF749@exch1.domforestry.forestry.gov.uk> Message-ID: <46DE9791.2060506@kodfabrik.se> Farndon, Tony skrev: >> 2. Microformats are in page, and there needs to be some way >> to indicate the microformats are available on the page that >> doesn't offend page authors. How can we accomplish this? >> > I second the opinion that this is a design issue and therefore should be > handled by css in some way. This would fit into the web design paradigm > of markup for data, css for design. My slightly different css approach; > create custom css property:value pairs, such as that of > -moz-border-radius. If something should add anything it should be added by a javascript which the Firefox people may very well supply. To have CSS instructing Firefox to add something into the HTML-data seems wrong, it doesn't really separate the data and content from the design. If something should instruct anything to add new HTML-data to a document it has to be either the HTML itself or JavaScripts. CSS can be used to style what's added, but should do nothing more than that in my opinion because it's only purpose is to add a deisgn and if it's removed the page should work equally well - only not as beutiful as with the CSS added. Let's just have a javascript like the one here below. If Firefox supplies a microformats object by default then all webpages can rely on that in Firefox it can easily be extended to add support for newer microformats like Prototype and other javascript frameworks today extends basic DOM-objects and such. If someone would like they could even code their own implementation of such a solution which can be used in other browsers than Firefox until those browsers adds support themselves either directly or indirectly through extensions.