From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 07:06:19 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 07:07:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values Message-ID: I have a page at: which uses the prototype "species" microformat. Operator returns for example: trinominal=Mergus m. merganser from source code: Mergus m. merganser which I would have expected to return: trinominal=Mergus merganser merganser since that is the "semantic" meaning of the cited source-code. However, I don't think the abbr-design-pattern specification is clear on this point. Am I correct? If so, should the abbr-design-pattern specification be updated, and/or an appropriate example be included? How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, such as, say: New John St. West (a real example; compare: & ). -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 08:42:42 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 08:44:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Edward O'Connor writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> I have a need to mark up some people's names, which are given as >> initials only, and where the full names for which those initials stand >> are not known. For example, "A. N. Other". >[...] >> In the absence of an "initials" property, how would you mark up such a >> name, in an hCard? > >How about without @title? Semantically, that might make sense (and is valid HTML), but how would parsers handle missing titles, given the abbr-design-pattern? [1] There is still the issue of what class names are most apt, though. [1] Two examples at the start of: which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null values. Is this something else which needs clarifying and codifying in the abbr-design-pattern spec? I've added it to the issues page: -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 08:42:20 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 08:44:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, such >as, say: > > > New John > St. > West > Operator and X2V each return, at the time of writing, "New John St. West", not the expected "New John Street West"; see: -- Andy Mabbett From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:27:53 2008 From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy) Date: Tue Jan 1 13:28:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2934A5B9-91DA-4FE2-8B31-5E9A7A3FAABA@gmail.com> Optimus will return correct string. Best, Dmitry Baranovskiy http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/ Optimus: http://microformatique.com/optimus/ On 02/01/2008, at 3:42 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > >> How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, >> such >> as, say: >> >> >> New John >> St. >> West >> > > > Operator and X2V each return, at the time of writing, "New John St. > West", not the expected "New John Street West"; see: > > > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:30:41 2008 From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy) Date: Tue Jan 1 13:31:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB0775F-1D5C-4D38-B498-4C075D56F466@gmail.com> I think parsers should ignore abbr without title. It looks quite logical. Best, Dmitry Baranovskiy http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/ Optimus: http://microformatique.com/optimus/ On 02/01/2008, at 3:42 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Edward O'Connor > writes > >> Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >>> I have a need to mark up some people's names, which are given as >>> initials only, and where the full names for which those initials >>> stand >>> are not known. For example, "A. N. Other". >> [...] >>> In the absence of an "initials" property, how would you mark up >>> such a >>> name, in an hCard? >> >> How about without @title? > > Semantically, that might make sense (and is valid HTML), but how would > parsers handle missing titles, given the abbr-design-pattern? [1] > > There is still the issue of what class names are most apt, though. > > > [1] Two examples at the start of: > > > > which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null > values. > > Is this something else which needs clarifying and codifying in the > abbr-design-pattern spec? > > I've added it to the issues page: > > issues#Issues> > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:51:37 2008 From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy) Date: Tue Jan 1 14:47:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This probably was raised before, but I didn't find it. Why we can't put these values into class? It seems to me semantically correct: additional meaning. It is as easy to parse as title and it removes accessibility issue completely. As soon as we are going to use prefix let's gain more benefits from this and hide our machine readable data deeper. Best, Dmitry Baranovskiy http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/ Optimus: http://microformatique.com/optimus/ On 01/01/2008, at 1:00 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > #~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~# > > While I understand the desire to avoid namespacing per se, using: > > 2:23 > > or > title="value:20070912T16:03:00+01:00"> > 4.03pm > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 15:09:27 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 15:10:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >Perhaps the rule should be that the hCard is for a place if the "fn" is >on *any* address ("adr") child-component (e.g. "fn locality" or "fn >street-address")? > >This would allow, for instance: Further testing shows that this pattern would have to be excluded from the "implied n optimisation" rule, which, obviously, does not apply in cases such as: New York Likewise "implied nickname optimisation": Boston -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 15:54:13 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 15:55:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Timelines from pages with hAtom or hCalendar microformats Message-ID: [cross-posted to the Simile and microformats mailing lists] Has anyone thought of creating (or "created"!) a tool to either: * parse a page marked up with the hAtom microformat (which enables generation of an Atom feed from HTML, using pre-defined class names): and rendering that data as a Simile timeline; ? Here's a page marked up with hAtom which might make a suitable test case: or to * generate a timeline from a page containing a set of events marked up with hCalendar microformats: such as: -- Andy Mabbett * Are you using Microformats, yet: ? From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 16:25:36 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jan 1 16:25:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com> On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > > >How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, such > >as, say: > > > > > > New John > > St. > > West > > > > > Operator and X2V each return, at the time of writing, "New John St. > West", not the expected "New John Street West"; see: --- this is more of a question for the dev-list. I would disagree that this is the correct interpretation. This has come-up before on the dev-list when dealing with looking into child-elements. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 16:41:26 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jan 1 16:41:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Timelines from pages with hAtom or hCalendar microformats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801011641k22a7a7dcx940df94227082645@mail.gmail.com> On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > * parse a page marked up with the hAtom microformat ... and rendering that data as a Simile timeline; Yes, the code has been written, but has not been tested enough yet. http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/microformat-encoding-and-visualization/ > * generate a timeline from a page containing a set of events > marked up with hCalendar microformats: --- Yes, the code is here and should also be checked into our versioning system. http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcalendar/ -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 17:52:22 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jan 1 17:52:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com> On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Edward O'Connor > >How about without @title? > ... > which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null values. The current mark-up is: Fred The user has explicitly said that the value of the ABBR is blank, so this is what X2V is pulling as the value of FN. We can discuss if is to correct to "help" the user, or to take what is explicitly been encoded no matter how silly it may seem? These sorts of parsing questions are best on the dev-list. --- brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 19:26:01 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 19:27:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message , Edward O'Connor >> >How about without @title? >> ... >> which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null values. > >The current mark-up is: >Fred >The user has explicitly said that the value of the ABBR is blank, so >this is what X2V is pulling as the value of FN. Per my subsequent, and more detailed, notes at: * How are empty (title="") title attributes to be parsed? At the time of writing, X2V returns a null value; Operator uses the content of the abbr element. Such mark-up is valid, but semantically illogical. The former parser behaviour seems the most logical, but results in an invalid vCard. * How are missing title attributes to be parsed? This is both valid and semantically-meaningful mark-up (the content is an abbreviation, but we know not of what). At the time of writing, X2V and Operator both use the content of the abbr element; this seems sensible, and should, perhaps, be ratified in the spec. See: for examples. >We can discuss if is to correct to "help" the user, or to take what is >explicitly been encoded no matter how silly it may seem? Indeed. We could also declare that: in a microformat renders that microformat invalid, and that parsers should generate an error message. What I hope we all agree that we should not do, is to continue to have different behaviour from the two leading parsers! -- Andy Mabbett From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Tue Jan 1 20:40:15 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Tue Jan 1 20:46:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 2, 2008 10:51 AM, Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote: > This probably was raised before, but I didn't find it. Why we can't > put these values into class? It seems to me semantically correct: > additional meaning. It is as easy to parse as title and it removes > accessibility issue completely. Because class should be used for distinguishing between types of elements. When XHTML uses

by Paul Wilkins

the intention is to allow a further XML refinement to become by Paul Wilkins There are other ways to hide information from people while still allowing it to be accessible by machines. For example: -- Paul Wilkins From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 18:28:51 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 22:00:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13$XkDdjbveHFwCg@pigsonthewing.org.uk> [Cross-posted, so original quoted in full] In message <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message , Andy Mabbett >> writes >> >>I have a page at: >> >> >> >>which uses the prototype "species" microformat. >> >>Operator returns for example: >> >> trinominal=Mergus m. merganser >> >>from source code: >> >> >> Mergus >> m. >> merganser >> >> >>which I would have expected to return: >> >> trinominal=Mergus merganser merganser >> >>since that is the "semantic" meaning of the cited source-code. >> >>However, I don't think the abbr-design-pattern specification is clear >>on this point. >> >>Am I correct? If so, should the abbr-design-pattern specification be >>updated, and/or an appropriate example be included? >> >>How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, >such >>as, say: >> >> >> New John >> St. >> West >> >> >>(a real example; compare: & >>). >--- this is more of a question for the dev-list. OK; cross-posted and follow-ups set. I've shown my whole post, above, for that reason. > I would disagree that this is the correct interpretation. For what reason? I can't see the logic behind any other interpretation. Consider, with the " Implied n Optimization" rule in mind, the "given-name" in each of: F. Smith and F. Smith Surely they should be the same? Or consider: F. Smith and: F. Smith Again surely these should be equivalent values? In the "New John Street West" example, where has the valid and meaningful data "street" gone, if the abbr is not expanded? The author clearly intends it to be present. Again, consider: Saint Phil's Church Saint Phil's Church Which of those would the rendered "Saint Phil's Church" represent? >This has come-up before on the dev-list when dealing with looking into >child-elements. Citations/ URLs would be useful, please. There doesn't seem to be any record or summary on the wiki. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 2 02:57:22 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 2 02:58:57 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com> References: <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com>, Paul Wilkins writes >There are other ways to hide information from people while still >allowing it to be accessible by machines. >For example: > There is no guarantee that comments will be delivered to the end user - many compression algorithms (for mobile devices, for example) strip them out. -- Andy Mabbett From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Jan 2 03:25:53 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Jan 2 03:26:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2/1/08 10:57, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message > <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com>, Paul > Wilkins writes > >> There are other ways to hide information from people while still >> allowing it to be accessible by machines. >> For example: >> > > There is no guarantee that comments will be delivered to the end user - > many compression algorithms (for mobile devices, for example) strip them > out. Are there any mobile browsers/extensions that recognise microformats (genuine question pertinent to current work)? http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From ajaswa at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:44:08 2008 From: ajaswa at gmail.com (Andrew Jaswa) Date: Wed Jan 2 14:44:13 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices WAS: A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue Message-ID: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 2, 2008 6:25 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: > > > > Are there any mobile browsers/extensions that recognise microformats > (genuine question pertinent to current work)? > Michael, I think your best bet on that would be to use X2V (or the likes) or a JS based approach. I know on some Trio's you can download converted hCards as vCards through X2V and then add the vCard to the contacts. I would suppose as long as your device has the ability to download files you would be safe in that regard. There are other phones (yes I'm looking at you, iPhone) that use vCards as a storage method but only allow you to add contacts by hand or though their own proprietary method. That being said I do not know of any current mobile browser/extensions that are aware of uF. Andrew From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 2 14:45:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 2 14:46:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Multi-word tagging In-Reply-To: <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <63OU0TXrwtdHFwa5@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <1198980572.8054.184.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >+ can indicate a space, but doesn't always. Which means you can't >necessarily relate a tag on Wikipedia, say, to a tag on flickr or >delicious. Which is a pity. I suppose that horse has bolted, though. :-( -- Andy Mabbett From mdagn at spraci.com Wed Jan 2 20:33:16 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Wed Jan 2 20:46:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices WAS: A further possiblesolution to the "abbr" accessibility issue References: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> > I think your best bet on that would be to use X2V (or the likes) or a > JS based approach. unless you are only aiming at a relatively small number of early adopters forget about using javascript on phones using the browsers they come with. Only the latest models are likely to have much chance of being able to use javascript client-side. Quite a lot of phones in recent years appear to have some (limited) support for iCal/vCard ... so online conversion tools or server-based tools may be the only practical way to go until phones with better browsers which include support for stuff like javascript reach consumer pricing levels and become more popular. > I know on some Trio's you can download converted > hCards as vCards through X2V and then add the vCard to the contacts. I > would suppose as long as your device has the ability to download files > you would be safe in that regard. There are other phones (yes I'm > looking at you, iPhone) that use vCards as a storage method but only > allow you to add contacts by hand or though their own proprietary > method. That being said I do not know of any current mobile I thought the iPhone would be better than that.. but I haven't seen one yet. I was always somewhat dismayed at the lack of support for transferring contacts/events/etc in any standard formats on many mobile devices .. I can't see the point of having something like a calendar on my phone if I am expected to re-enter everything by hand .. I (and I assume most people) couldn't be bothered doing that, so such a calendar ends up being nothing more than a waste of space! From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 04:29:34 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 04:30:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] PD wording: inconsistency between wiki and blog Message-ID: The wording: One way to address some of these concerns is for individual contributors to decide for themselves if they'd like to put their own individual contributions to the wiki, mailing lists, blog, and IRC channel into the public domain. [...] If enough contributors eventually support this... on: would seem to be at odds with: Editors will [...] remove past contributions from users who have indicated that preference. Starting February 1st, primary editors and authors of pages should start cleaning microformats.org wiki pages created before today of non-public-domain content [...] When all pages are new or cleaned, the admins will move the text of the CC-PD license to the global footer on the wiki, thus indicating that the contents of the entire wiki is in the public domain. on: -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 04:33:57 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 04:35:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices In-Reply-To: <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <05r3nKt1YNfHFwKj@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN>, Michael MD writes >Quite a lot of phones in recent years appear to have some (limited) support >for iCal/vCard ... so online conversion tools or server-based tools may be >the only practical way to go until phones with better browsers which include >support for stuff like javascript reach consumer pricing levels and become >more popular. A version of Opera, "Opera Mini": is available for some mobile devices - it is both free and good. Perhaps the way forward is to lobby for such third-party add-ons to offer better features, such as uF support, and hope the device makers will then play catch-up with their own software. >I thought the iPhone would be better than that.. but I haven't seen one yet. >From the reviews I've read, I'm not surprised. >I was always somewhat dismayed at the lack of support for transferring >contacts/events/etc in any standard formats on many mobile devices .. I >can't see the point of having something like a calendar on my phone if I am >expected to re-enter everything by hand .. I (and I assume most people) >couldn't be bothered doing that, so such a calendar ends up being nothing >more than a waste of space! I can't even copy plain text from web pages using the native browser on my Nokia N95; nor for that matter, with Opera Mini - though I have more confidence in the ability being added to the latter. I do, though, synch my calendar with Outlook's calendar, which I use on my desktop PC (and could also synch it with my Lotus Notes' calendar, at work, except all my colleagues have access to that..!) -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Thu Jan 3 04:57:28 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Thu Jan 3 04:57:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Multi-word tagging Message-ID: <380-2200814312572846@M2W015.mail2web.com> There's often information in the full URL that allows you to place a tag in context, so a clever enough bit of software should be able to figure out that http://flickr.com/photos/tags/stars/clusters/night-sky-longexposure/ is related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars but not to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars_%28UK_band%29 Slightly outside the boundaries of microformats tags, since they only use the last portion of a URL. I wrote something this morning that uses phrases, not single words, as tags. Seems to work reasonably well with Operator. The URL is http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/2008/01/will_an_asteroid_hit_mars_in_j.html if you want to use it as an example or a test case. Jim Original Message: ----------------- From: Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:45:12 +0000 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Multi-word tagging In message <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >+ can indicate a space, but doesn't always. Which means you can't >necessarily relate a tag on Wikipedia, say, to a tag on flickr or >delicious. Which is a pity. I suppose that horse has bolted, though. :-( -- Andy Mabbett _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Jan 3 06:11:10 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Jan 3 06:11:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices In-Reply-To: <05r3nKt1YNfHFwKj@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> <05r3nKt1YNfHFwKj@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2008 12:33 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN>, Michael MD > writes > I can't even copy plain text from web pages using the native browser on > my Nokia N95; nor for that matter, with Opera Mini - though I have more > confidence in the ability being added to the latter. Lack of cut+paste is indeed an annoyance with the N95. The good news is that it can handle most vCards or iCals correctly, if delieverd over HTTP. -Ciaran McNulty From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 09:00:08 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 09:01:42 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data Message-ID: One of the microformat principles is (while not expressed in so many words) that we should make life easier for publishers, and load work onto parsers, instead. There are a great many pages where a vCard is, or could be applied to a single data-value (such as a name) in prose, or a table, without further attributes being present; for example: ...as John Smith said... Currently, that would require: as John Smith said which is a considerable amount of mark-up, compared to the actual data, and significantly bloats a page on which many such name appear. Other examples might be: ...lived in Birmingham since 2005... ...developed by Acme Inc. using cheese... It has previously been proposed that: as John Smith said be allowed, but that has been rejected; not least because it might break existing microformats. We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that an hCard with no children: as John Smith said defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up as used above. Still, this again might break existing hCards, and could only apply in one case (for an implied "fn", in this example), so must be rejected. What we could do, though is create a LIMITED NUMBER of sub-microformats (effectively, new microformats based on exiting microformats; I'd call them "nanoformats", if that name was not already taken), using the name and an attribute from one of those exiting microformats as the new sub-microformat name. We would have to be certain that these were limited to cases where vast numbers of the relevant data items are published, and where the parsing rules are unambiguous. Such parsing rules might be: * John Smith (treat content as fn within vCard; apply n-optimisation if appropriate) * John Smith (treat content as fn within vCard; apply n-optimisation if appropriate, use URL) * John Smith (treat content as fn within vCard; apply n-optimisation if appropriate, use e-mail address) Further examples might be for organisations: * Acme Inc. (vcard; with fn, and org, both set to "Acme Inc."; also used with href as above) and for places: * Birmingham (vcard; with fn, and adr's locality, both set to "Birmingham") * Texas (vcard; with fn, and adr's region, both set to "Texas") [In each of the above pair, "vcard-" could be replaced with "adr-" and parsed accordingly.] Note again that I am NOT suggesting that all microformat attributes be combinable in this manner; only a select few, which are deemed necessary and agreed by consensus (perhaps only those shown above, plus a few other adr-children; though the pattern could also apply to other, upcoming microformats). Benefits of using a single, unambiguously-named, class on a singe element for simple, single-value data types will include ease of use for publishers; and more widespread usage of semantic mark-up. -- Andy Mabbett From gl at brixlogic.com Thu Jan 3 09:23:53 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Thu Jan 3 09:24:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that > an hCard with no children: > > as John Smith said > > > Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards standard to tag an entity's name? isn't this an example of hammering unfit-for-hcard content into hcard? To me, if there is value in tagging and extracting entities from narrative Web content, it is a different problem than extracting contact information from a structured Web contact card, and as a result probably deserves its own class attributes, and maybe a microformat if that usage is widespread enough. For now, in the example above the only thing that would make sense to me is an link pointing to an anchor/id in the same/different page that would contain John Smith's contact information. Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 10:40:16 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 10:41:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: In message <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that >> an hCard with no children: >> >> as John Smith said >> >Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards standard to tag >an entity's name? Because they're the most appropriate semantics; and because people are already using the long-hand version of hCard to do so. vCard is an electronic business cards standard; hCard is not merely an electronic business cards standard, but already has wider uses. I'm not suggesting a new use of those semantics; I'm merely suggesting a more efficient way of using them. >isn't this an example of hammering unfit-for-hcard content into hcard? Clearly, I don't think so. >To me, if there is value in tagging and extracting entities from >narrative Web content, it is a different problem than extracting >contact information from a structured Web contact card, and as a result >probably deserves its own class attributes, and maybe a microformat if >that usage is widespread enough. Are you suggesting that we use different class-names to mark up the same data? That's directly in contravention of the microformat "principles"; and would put more weight back onto the shoulders of publishers. >For now, in the example above the only thing that would make sense to >me is an link pointing to an anchor/id in the same/different >page that would contain John Smith's contact information. Who says that that information is one the page in question? -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 11:13:40 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 11:14:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] CSS for microformats Message-ID: I've posted a couple of CSS fragments which I use when publishing microformats, and which others might also find useful: Please feel free to reuse or improve them, and to post other examples. -- Andy Mabbett From gl at brixlogic.com Thu Jan 3 11:40:38 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Thu Jan 3 11:40:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > Because they're the most appropriate semantics; I don't agree with that, but I'm not going to argue about it. > and because people are already using the long-hand version of hCard to > do so. > > vCard is an electronic business cards standard; hCard is not merely an > electronic business cards standard, but already has wider uses. Ok, I didn't know that. I'm really just raising a warning. I can think of at least one discussion here (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-November/010974.html) that was arguing how one of the wider uses of hCard, particular for microformatting narrative content might not be actually a publisher's best practice. In addition, my experience in other communities is that favoring reuse over semantic precision can result in very difficult machine processing (due to disambiguation requirements), which may defeat the point of microformats: reusing the same tag/classname seems good at first, but then people realize that a particular tag/classname's meaning depends on the context, i.e. what other tags/classnames are present, and the processing complexity increases. While microformats are for humans, I see microformats as a way to reduce the costs of "machine reading". If the meaning of a tag/classname is highly context-sensitive, then you may end up building the same "$1M code" that you would have to build if there was no microformat. > > Are you suggesting that we use different class-names to mark up the > same data? That's directly in contravention of the microformat > "principles"; and would put more weight back onto the shoulders of > publishers. No. I don't think that's necessary. I just think that the "John Smith" in your example "...as John Smith said in..." is different data than in "My contact information:
John Smith
Cell: (415) ...". I would tag the "John Smith" in your example as an entity name, a formatted name, a person's name, a reference to an entity, but not as something that is also use for electronic business card. Otherwise, I have to look at the context to understand what I'm really supposed to do with this information. For instance, a software like tail will have to disambiguate between vcards that are merely a person name (and are not very valuable in my opinion to export to an address book) and vcards, which actually carry contact information. In other words, my opinion is that a vcard implies a named entity, but a named entity does not imply a vcard. In other words, I would be perfectly happy to simply microformat "...as John Smith said in..." as "... as John Smith said in...". I don't see the value of prefixing fn and n by vcard. I'm probably missing something though, if so, let me know. > > > Who says that that information is one the page in question? > I assume you mean "on the page in question". I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that if it is not there, then the "John Smith" in "... as John Smith said in..." is not a contact card, but if there is such contact information for this person somewhere else on the page, or on a different page, then an "... as John Smith said in..." is what would make sense to me. Guillaume From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Thu Jan 3 13:07:59 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Thu Jan 3 13:08:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 6:00 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > There are a great many pages where a vCard is, or could be applied to a > single data-value (such as a name) in prose, or a table, without further > attributes being present; for example: > > ...as John Smith said... > > Currently, that would require: > > as John Smith > said > > which is a considerable amount of mark-up, compared to the actual data, > and significantly bloats a page on which many such name appear. > > Other examples might be: > > ...lived in Birmingham since 2005... > > ...developed by Acme Inc. using cheese... What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside an hcard? as John Smith said -- Paul Wilkins From martin at weborganics.co.uk Thu Jan 3 13:44:37 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Thu Jan 3 13:42:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello Paul, Andy... On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: > What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside > an hcard? > as John Smith said You could wrap it in item: John Smith would the class-include work then? Martin From martin at weborganics.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:08:11 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Thu Jan 3 14:05:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1199398091.22931.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 21:44 +0000, Martin McEvoy wrote: > You could wrap it in item: > > > John Smith > > > would the class-include work then? Operator and Tails don't have any issues with wrapping fn in an Item and using the class include http://weborganics.co.uk/files/test.html x2v on the other hand chokes... er may need some "tweeking" to get it to work. Thanks Martin From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 14:19:58 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Jan 3 14:20:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <1199398091.22931.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1199398091.22931.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <21e770780801031419g260d3d9aj940203e84f0a8c18@mail.gmail.com> On 03/01/2008, Martin McEvoy wrote: > On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 21:44 +0000, Martin McEvoy wrote: > > You could wrap it in item: > > > > > > John Smith > > > > > > would the class-include work then? > > Operator and Tails don't have any issues with wrapping fn in an Item and > using the class include > > http://weborganics.co.uk/files/test.html > > > x2v on the other hand chokes... er may need some "tweeking" to get it to > work. --- this is an issue with the description of the include pattern. X2V will only look at encodings that are children of an ID, not at the same level. The following should work because it will find the node with the ID and then find FN as a child: John Smith If we want to continue this conversation, it should be done on the dev-list -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 14:55:36 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 14:56:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Martin McEvoy writes >On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: >> What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside >> an hcard? >> as John Smith said > >You could wrap it in item: > > >John Smith > >would the class-include work then? That seems to be more bloated than the problem it sets out to solve... -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 15:04:14 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 15:05:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: In message <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Because they're the most appropriate semantics; >I don't agree with that, but I'm not going to argue about it. >> and because people are already using the long-hand version of hCard >>to do so. >> >> vCard is an electronic business cards standard; hCard is not merely >>an electronic business cards standard, but already has wider uses. >Ok, I didn't know that. The hCard spec says that: hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for representing people, companies, organizations, and places, using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426) properties and values note that's NOT: hCard is a 1:1 representation of [a] vCard... For clarity, the former can be distilled to: hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, and places >In addition, my experience in other communities is that favoring reuse >over semantic precision can result in very difficult machine processing >(due to disambiguation requirements) [...] I don't think my proposal, or the use outlined above, reduces semantic precision. Note also that the *only* required property for an hCard is "fn". >I just think that the "John Smith" in your example "...as John Smith >said in..." is different data than in "My contact information: >
John Smith
Cell: (415) ...". [...] No. It *is* the same data. That's the crux of the matter. >In other words, I would be perfectly happy to simply microformat "...as >John Smith said in..." as "... as John Smith >said in...". I don't see the value of prefixing fn and n by vcard. > >I'm probably missing something though, if so, let me know. That the classes "fn" and/or "n" might already be used, with different (or no) semantic meaning, to style the page in question? -- Andy Mabbett From martin at weborganics.co.uk Thu Jan 3 15:45:53 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Thu Jan 3 15:43:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1199403953.23630.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 22:55 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Martin > McEvoy writes > > >On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: > >> What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside > >> an hcard? > >> as John Smith said > > > >You could wrap it in item: > > > > > >John Smith > > > >would the class-include work then? > > That seems to be more bloated than the problem it sets out to solve... That was my thought too, not really any point :), good to cover the possibilities though? Martin > From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Thu Jan 3 16:07:15 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Thu Jan 3 16:07:29 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: On 3 Jan 2008, at 23:04, Andy Mabbett wrote: > For clarity, the former can be distilled to: > > hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, > and > places > Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general enough to cover those cases? It would be handy to have a general method for preserving the semantics of the tag (http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq? name=rs) when converting TEI documents to HTML for delivery over the web. Particularly the contents of the type attribute, which identifies what class of thing we are referencing. Very useful when digitising historical manuscripts, diaries and letters, for example. In the past we've converted to HTML links and left it to the reader to work out whether we're referring to a person, a place or a ship. For example, the links in this letter that we digitised years ago with TEI: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/DisplayDocument.cfm?ID=110 Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 16:34:35 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 16:35:42 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <4IgkboDb8XfHFwo9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Jim O'Donnell writes >> For clarity, the former can be distilled to: >> >> hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, >>and >> places >Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names >of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be >given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general >enough to cover those cases? I think ships are an edge-case for hCard. For books, plays and films, I would think that's a job for a "citation" microformat, once we have one (and one is surely needed). [One could argue that a physical copy of a book could have an hCard, with an extended-address of "Shelf 54, Floor 3, Anytown Library"; but that's really stretching the logic.] As for "pretty much anything", I'll leave that for others to decide ;-) I'm not familiar with TEI: "a consortium which collectively develops and maintains a standard for the representation of texts in digital form. Its chief deliverable is a set of Guidelines which specify encoding methods for machine-readable texts, chiefly in the humanities, social sciences and linguistics. - what does it have to teach us? -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 16:44:59 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 16:46:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <+GEFYZELGYfHFwZx@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Jim O'Donnell writes >Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names >of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be >given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general >enough to cover those cases? > >It would be handy to have a general method for preserving the >semantics of the tag (http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq? >name=rs) P.S. Having re-read the cited page, I see that the format is: Joe Smith and (I presume): War and Peace Since there are type delimiters, I would say that these parallel: Joe Smith and the hypothetical: War and Peace In other words: rs-person -> hcard-fn rs-book -> hbook-fn Though TEI allows any string as a value for "type", and microformats require pre-defined "type" equivalents. -- Andy Mabbett From gl at brixlogic.com Thu Jan 3 17:31:41 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Thu Jan 3 17:31:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <477D8C7D.108@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > > The hCard spec says that: > > hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for representing > people, companies, organizations, and places, using a 1:1 > representation of vCard (RFC2426) properties and values > > note that's NOT: > > hCard is a 1:1 representation of [a] vCard... > > For clarity, the former can be distilled to: > > hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, and > places > I know, but I still think there is a sweet spot for hCard (portable friends list, distributed address book with personal electronic cards, anything use case that involves exchange of contact info of some sort), and still think that microformatting narrative content with hCard where there is no contact info and where people, organizations, and places' names are only used as references/identifiers is outside of that sweet spot. If there is no such sweet spot, then why excluding ships? they do have a name, location and contact info. Another argument is that: if we microformat all people's names with hCard, then, if I want to style my actual electronic card from mere people's names/references/identifiers mentioned in my blog posts, I will have to wrap the hCard used for electronic cards into an element with a new classname to communicate precise meaning. So, IMO, I do lose semantic meaning by widening the use of hCard beyond its sweet spot. But I won't argue with the spec. So, case closed AFAIC. >> That the classes "fn" and/or "n" might already be used, with different >> (or no) semantic meaning, to style the page in question? >> >> Sorry if this is not really the point of the discussion, but what I'm reading here is that classname "fn" may have different meaning if used outside of an element of class "vcard". Saying this is to me equivalent to saying the "vcard" classname syntax is syntactic sugar for the concept of a namespace (as is "vcard-fn"). My understanding was that the concept of namespace, not just its xml syntax, was an antipattern in microformats. Am I mistaken? Re: styling, I believe I can use (at least in Firefox): .hcard .fn { ... } to specifically style the element of class fn found in an element of class hcard, and: .fn { ... } to specifically style elements of class fn, which do not appear within an element of class hcard. Guillaume From ryan at ryancannon.com Thu Jan 3 18:07:04 2008 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Thu Jan 3 18:07:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <200801032206.m03M66JD022484@microformats.org> Message-ID: Andy Mabbett wrote: > We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that > an hCard with no children ... defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up > as used above. I wrote about this more than a year ago[1] and created some wiki pages with examples: * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-examples * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-brainstorming It never got very much traction. The goal is to make it more quick and easy to publish and capture the "personitude" (if you will) of a name and link. Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards standard to tag an > entity's name? Because that's what we've done in parts of hAtom[2], hresume[3] and probably others since I've been more or less inattentive to this list. The largest problem we have to deal with is one Brian Suda's criticism of the idea[4]. Andy's solution begins where this discussion left off, but there already has been some work done here. [1]: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/0073 46.html [2]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema [3]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Schema [4]: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-December/0075 59.html -- Ryan Cannon Application Developer National Football League http://ryancannon.com/ From John at eazytiger.net Fri Jan 4 02:13:05 2008 From: John at eazytiger.net (John Holt) Date: Fri Jan 4 02:16:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hListing for eCommerce Message-ID: Hi there, We've just started to add microformats to our eCommerce system, and myself and another designer have gone through the hlisting spec and applied it to the product information that our system is already displaying. I was hoping that we could post the html that we're using and get some feedback to ensure that we're using hlisting as it's defined at the moment, and also hopefully to help the format along with a discussion on its usage on ecommerce sites. The following code is used on a category page, where a number of related products will be displayed, so our thought was that this was a single listing with many 'items', and so would only require a single 'lister'. It also seemed to make sense to us that 'photo', 'fn', 'description' and 'price' were a subset of each 'item' - although the spec wasn't too clear on whether this was how the schema is intended. We've also tried to include additional, relevant microformats, so we've tagged each item with its category name, used the currency microformat for the price, and used vcard for the lister. thanks for any comments, john

Company Name

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Jan 4 03:02:33 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Jan 4 03:04:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: <200801032206.m03M66JD022484@microformats.org> Message-ID: <9c0lepIJJhfHFwpS@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Ryan Cannon writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that >> an hCard with no children ... defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up >> as used above. > >I wrote about this more than a year ago[1] and created some wiki pages with >examples: > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-examples > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-brainstorming So you did - I even replied on -brainstorming. (I wish I could remember what happened to my memory!) As explained in my original post in this thread, I now think that the specific suggestion to use "vcard-with-no-children" is unworkable. >The largest problem we have to deal with is one Brian Suda's criticism of >the idea Aside from Brian's issues with your specific example, his key comment seemed to be: Either #1 you are trying to save bytes (which IMHO is not a good reason) or #2 you are trying to make publishing easier... so if we are going to work under the assumption of #2 lets, try to avoid the whole "HTML Bloat" discussion. While I think bloat *is* an issue (more specifically, a disincentive to publishers to use microformats), I thinks that the two go hand in hand, and that this proposal does address his latter point, of ease of publishing. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Jan 4 03:10:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Jan 4 03:11:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hListing for eCommerce In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2MDnqgJUQhfHFwIF@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , John Holt writes > Designer Wood Veneer Lamp Table in >Wenge
Dimensions 50W x 50D x 50H cm Other points not withstanding, you might like to look at, and contribute to, work on the proposed "measurement" microformat: and seek out recent discussion of that in the mailing list archives: -- Andy Mabbett From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jan 4 03:59:40 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jan 4 05:51:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <9c0lepIJJhfHFwpS@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <200801032206.m03M66JD022484@microformats.org> <9c0lepIJJhfHFwpS@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20801040359h5f5145c4jbbed71f92dbd29c6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 6:02 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Ryan Cannon > writes > > > >Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that > >> an hCard with no children ... defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up > >> as used above. > > > >I wrote about this more than a year ago[1] and created some wiki pages with > >examples: > > > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-examples > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-brainstorming > > So you did - I even replied on -brainstorming. (I wish I could remember > what happened to my memory!) > > As explained in my original post in this thread, I now think that the > specific suggestion to use "vcard-with-no-children" is unworkable. > > > >The largest problem we have to deal with is one Brian Suda's criticism of > >the idea > > Aside from Brian's issues with your specific example, his key comment > seemed to be: > > Either #1 you are trying to save bytes (which IMHO is not a good > reason) or #2 you are trying to make publishing easier... so if > we are going to work under the assumption of #2 lets, try to > avoid the whole "HTML Bloat" discussion. > > While I think bloat *is* an issue (more specifically, a disincentive to > publishers to use microformats), I thinks that the two go hand in hand, > and that this proposal does address his latter point, of ease of > publishing. For what's worth, I think something along the lines of what Andy & Ryan C. are discussing here is a good idea, though I'm loath to get in a pissing match about "vcard fn" again. Let me quote here something from a friend (who's had a fair bit of success in small startups over the last few years) in response to my question why he wasn't using XFN + hCard for a project: | The biggest problem with microformats is that nobody gets it. | If I tell a programmer its an XML vocabulary, then he says "gotch ya". | If I tell a programmer its microformats, then he says "micro what?" | There's a lot of interest in microformats because its cool, but few are | implementing them because of the learning curve. David Janes is a pretty damned hard sell. Regards, etc... David -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Fri Jan 4 03:49:45 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Fri Jan 4 06:56:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) Message-ID: <380-2200815411494598@M2W027.mail2web.com> I thought about this a bit more this morning, and it sort of creeps into the territory covered by rel-tag too. For instance, the blog post I made yesterday has astronomical names that are being used as tags - '2007 WD5', 'Mars', 'solar system', 'Shoemaker Levy 9' (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/2008/01/will_an_asteroid_hit_mars_in_j.html). Those are all strings that could be marked up, semantically, as the names of things. TEI is a markup language that's mostly used in the humanities for digitising written texts such as books, plays, poetry and letters. In terms of what it can teach us, I guess a lot has been written by the TEI community on how to mark up the structure of a written document eg. how to mark up dates and times, how to mark up names of things. There's a good overview at this URL: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Oxford/2007-02-13-oucs/talk-overview.xml We used TEI-Lite years ago, to digitise an archive of papers relating to the explorer Matthew Flinders. Specifically, we wanted to index papers according to people, places, ships etc. mentioned in those letters. The indexing had to be good enough to recognise that eg. 'The Revd Mr Tyler' and 'Tyler, (Reverend) William' are semantically the same. TEI-Lite is good for this sort of problem. That archive is available in HTML at http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders but the HTML version loses the semantics of the underlying TEI documents, which are hidden away in a database and, therefore, unavailable to the serious researcher. We could open up the original semantic documents by giving links to the XML versions, but it might be useful also to try and preserve the TEI semantics in the HTML documents. There's a post on Semantic Humanities about this problem, but with regard to RDF too: http://semantichumanities.wordpress.com/2006/08/26/when-is-semantic-html-not -important/ Jim Original Message: ----------------- From: Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:34:35 +0000 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) In message , Jim O'Donnell writes >> For clarity, the former can be distilled to: >> >> hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, >>and >> places >Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names >of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be >given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general >enough to cover those cases? I think ships are an edge-case for hCard. For books, plays and films, I would think that's a job for a "citation" microformat, once we have one (and one is surely needed). [One could argue that a physical copy of a book could have an hCard, with an extended-address of "Shelf 54, Floor 3, Anytown Library"; but that's really stretching the logic.] As for "pretty much anything", I'll leave that for others to decide ;-) I'm not familiar with TEI: "a consortium which collectively develops and maintains a standard for the representation of texts in digital form. Its chief deliverable is a set of Guidelines which specify encoding methods for machine-readable texts, chiefly in the humanities, social sciences and linguistics. - what does it have to teach us? -- Andy Mabbett _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Fri Jan 4 06:32:04 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Fri Jan 4 08:31:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) Message-ID: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> I wrote a long-ish reply to Andy's post, but I think it vanished into the mysterious SMTP aether. My sincere apologies if this is double-posted. Re. TEI - it's a markup language used in the humanities to mark up digital versions of printed material - plays, novels, diaries, letters etc. There's a really good overview at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Oxford/2007-02-13-oucs/talk-overview.xml There's a crossover with microformats in that TEI has semantics for describing dates, references to people, places and so on. Also, there's a lot of discussion surrounding TEI on the semantics of printed prose, and the practicalities of marking up the semantics of a document. On the names thing, I suppose I could be tagging something with the name "John Smith", in which case I'd use rel-tag, or making "John Smith" available to be downloaded as a vcard, in which case I'd use hcard. The semantics of "John Smith" haven't changed between those two examples. What I want to do with the phrase "John Smith" has, so the exact microformat I'd use depends on what I want to do with the names in the end, more than their semantics. In the case of historical documents, more often than not I want to build indexes to link documents together. So I want to use place names, references to people, ship names and the names of astronomical objects as tags. For instance, the links to related people on this letter: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/DisplayDocument.cfm?ID=110 or the links to '2007 WD5' and 'Shoemaker Levy 9' in this blog post: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/2008/01/will_an_asteroid_hit_mars_in_j.html Would that be as simple as using something like Julie and I thought this up when discussing | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a matter of days (like the first BarCamp). | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly not comprehensive), a few of | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two days of reflection | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going to do). They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From evan at prodromou.name Fri Jan 4 14:26:30 2008 From: evan at prodromou.name (Evan Prodromou) Date: Fri Jan 4 14:26:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Montreal CodeFest 2008: Microformats Message-ID: <477EB296.1070709@prodromou.name> I don't know if it's come up before, but CodeFest 2008 in Montreal is concentrating on ?F's. Our previous CodeFest in 2007 concentrated on OpenID, and we added support for the standard to 6 Open Source projects. So, pretty likely we'll see some good code come out of this weekend. If you're interested in participating on-line or in person, see: http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/CodeFest2008 -Evan From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jan 4 14:50:38 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jan 4 14:57:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Montreal CodeFest 2008: Microformats In-Reply-To: <477EB296.1070709@prodromou.name> References: <477EB296.1070709@prodromou.name> Message-ID: <21e523c20801041450x62ecc0e6k49e5af8e691ab23a@mail.gmail.com> Jebus ... 14 hours notice. Would have loved to been there :-( Regards, etc... On 1/4/08, Evan Prodromou wrote: > I don't know if it's come up before, but CodeFest 2008 in Montreal is > concentrating on ?F's. Our previous CodeFest in 2007 concentrated on > OpenID, and we added support for the standard to 6 Open Source projects. > So, pretty likely we'll see some good code come out of this weekend. > > If you're interested in participating on-line or in person, see: > > http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/CodeFest2008 > > -Evan > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From kevinmarks at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 14:50:53 2008 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Fri Jan 4 14:58:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20801040359h5f5145c4jbbed71f92dbd29c6@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160801041450v288876d8h8a924c9dbdd476b2@mail.gmail.com> In semantic HTML, the right way to do this would be to use around the name: Julie so doing Julie which has an implied nickname, and adds the XFN for "my friend" On Jan 4, 2008 2:23 PM, David Janes wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > > The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing information about a > > person on the Web would seem to refute that. > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles > > "Profiles" is not the problem that Andy & Ryan C. are talking about: > they're talking about using hCard in casual references to people and > places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've coded: > > | My friend Julie and I > thought this up when discussing > | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a > matter of days (like the first BarCamp). > | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly > not comprehensive), a few of > | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two > days of reflection > | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going > to do). > > They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic > information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple > operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. > > Regards, etc... > > -- > David Janes > Founder, BlogMatrix > http://www.blogmatrix.com > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From csarven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 15:10:41 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Fri Jan 4 15:10:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using an external resource for the include-pattern Message-ID: re: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-faq#Q:_Does_include-pattern_support_for_data_outside_of_the_current_page.3F http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern#scope I presume the "ease of implementation" is referring to a *parser* grabbing the data from another resource. As far as marking up a document, I don't see how the "vast majority of use cases" should dictate this and it is certainly trivial to provide a relative/absolute URL in the href (e.g. href="http://www.csarven.ca#hcard") of the document. Can the parsers perhaps store cookies on the client-side and minimize the HTTP requests? I'm not well versed in FOAF but perhaps this is related and I do wonder how it approaches this. I would appreciate it if anyone could point me to the past logs on this stuff. Thanks. -Sarven From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Fri Jan 4 15:19:59 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Fri Jan 4 15:17:19 2008 Subject: natural language hCards (was Re: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/08 2:23 PM, "David Janes" wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > >> The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing information about a >> person on the Web would seem to refute that. >> >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles > > "Profiles" is not the problem that Andy & Ryan C. are talking about: > they're talking about using hCard in casual references to people and > places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've coded: > > | My friend Julie and I > thought this up when discussing > | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a > matter of days (like the first BarCamp). > | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly > not comprehensive), a few of > | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two > days of reflection > | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going > to do). Ah ok, this is what Jeremy Keith refers to as "natural language hCards", wherein you simply markup inline references to people accordingly. He's got some really good examples of this, including mixes of nicknames etc. Brief section on this in hcard-authoring: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Natural_language_hCard which references Jeremy's post on the subject: http://adactio.com/journal/1122/ I've just added a bit more to that section based on Jeremy's real world markup of "Malarkey" in his blog post to illustrate further. > They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic > information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple > operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. That being said, good point, I should markup Julie as such in that blog post. Updated. What really gets people to use more markup in blog posts though, is the little creator/style buttons that often line up just above the top of a blog post editing textarea for creating links, lists etc. What we need is a "person" button (perhaps with an icon similar to the icon next to your username when you are logged into the microformats wiki) which simply inserts the markup for you, or better yet, lets you pick someone from your address book, and then inserts an inline hCard with their name, URL (and perhaps even XFN relationship to them) for you. That little bit of extra markup pales in comparison to the typical prose of a blog post. Perhaps we could ask various blogging tool makers to add such a feature. Similarly for events. I've noted this in the plugins / web-apps sections of hCard advocacy: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-advocacy#WYSIWYG_buttons > Regards, etc... Thanks again as always David, you've raised and clarified good points. Tantek On 1/4/08 2:50 PM, "Kevin Marks" wrote: > In semantic HTML, the right way to do this would be to use > around the name: > Julie > so doing > Julie > > which has an implied nickname, and adds the XFN for "my friend" I'm not really quoting or citing Julie for saying something, so I'm not sure that is appropriate in this case. However, the markup I ended up using is close to what you suggested. Here it is with white-space added for readability: Julie I've added this example to the hcard-authoring natural language hCard section as well. From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Fri Jan 4 15:29:18 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Fri Jan 4 15:26:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Montreal CodeFest 2008: Microformats In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801041450x62ecc0e6k49e5af8e691ab23a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/08 2:50 PM, "David Janes" wrote: > Jebus ... 14 hours notice. Would have loved to been there :-( > > Regards, etc... > > On 1/4/08, Evan Prodromou wrote: >> I don't know if it's come up before, but CodeFest 2008 in Montreal is >> concentrating on ?F's. Our previous CodeFest in 2007 concentrated on >> OpenID, and we added support for the standard to 6 Open Source projects. >> So, pretty likely we'll see some good code come out of this weekend. >> >> If you're interested in participating on-line or in person, see: >> >> http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/CodeFest2008 >> >> -Evan Evan this sounds very promising! Is there some way to remotely participate? Via IRC etc.? I see that it's been added to the events page: http://microformats.org/wiki/events Could you create a separate page for it on the wiki and add in details, perhaps even a list of which open source projects people are working on, so that some of us could offer suggestions remotely? I encourage you to ask the CodeFest 2008 participants to make liberal use of the #microformat IRC channel as well. Thanks! Tantek From gl at brixlogic.com Fri Jan 4 16:15:17 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Fri Jan 4 16:15:48 2008 Subject: natural language hCards (was Re: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477ECC15.5000100@brixlogic.com> Tantek ?elik wrote: > > Ah ok, this is what Jeremy Keith refers to as "natural language hCards", > wherein you simply markup inline references to people accordingly. I believe Wikipedia calls these "inline hCards", which sounds to me like a good name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Hcard-bday Guillaume From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jan 4 16:42:03 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jan 4 16:48:52 2008 Subject: natural language hCards (was Re: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats) In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20801041642r374c19f8ye53b34ae959f16d2@mail.gmail.com> I think we're all on the same page we're we'd like to see uFs go, more or less. My issue -- re:ing Jeremy Keith, and Kevin's related post a few minutes ago -- is that we're all being terribly clever. But to repurpose a phrase, "there's lots of room at the bottom": I'm interested also in seeing where "Joe" can use this. Not so much, though, that I'm going to get in fights or lengthy arguments about it: my constitution can't handle the stress any more. That's why a lot of my posts have been of an FYI nature rather than argumentative. I'll be up for verbal fights at Foo though ;-) Regards, etc... On Jan 4, 2008 6:19 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 1/4/08 2:23 PM, "David Janes" wrote: > > > On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > > >> The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing information about a > >> person on the Web would seem to refute that. > >> > >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles > > > > "Profiles" is not the problem that Andy & Ryan C. are talking about: > > they're talking about using hCard in casual references to people and > > places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've coded: > > > > | My friend Julie and I > > thought this up when discussing > > | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a > > matter of days (like the first BarCamp). > > | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly > > not comprehensive), a few of > > | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two > > days of reflection > > | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going > > to do). > > Ah ok, this is what Jeremy Keith refers to as "natural language hCards", > wherein you simply markup inline references to people accordingly. He's got > some really good examples of this, including mixes of nicknames etc. > > Brief section on this in hcard-authoring: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Natural_language_hCard > > which references Jeremy's post on the subject: > > http://adactio.com/journal/1122/ > > I've just added a bit more to that section based on Jeremy's real world > markup of "Malarkey" in his blog post to illustrate further. > > > > They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic > > information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple > > operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. > > That being said, good point, I should markup Julie as such in that blog > post. Updated. > > What really gets people to use more markup in blog posts though, is the > little creator/style buttons that often line up just above the top of a blog > post editing textarea for creating links, lists etc. > > What we need is a "person" button (perhaps with an icon similar to the icon > next to your username when you are logged into the microformats wiki) which > simply inserts the markup for you, or better yet, lets you pick someone from > your address book, and then inserts an inline hCard with their name, URL > (and perhaps even XFN relationship to them) for you. That little bit of > extra markup pales in comparison to the typical prose of a blog post. > > Perhaps we could ask various blogging tool makers to add such a feature. > Similarly for events. > > I've noted this in the plugins / web-apps sections of hCard advocacy: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-advocacy#WYSIWYG_buttons > > > > Regards, etc... > > > Thanks again as always David, you've raised and clarified good points. > > Tantek > > > > On 1/4/08 2:50 PM, "Kevin Marks" wrote: > > > In semantic HTML, the right way to do this would be to use > > around the name: > > Julie > > so doing > > Julie > > > > which has an implied nickname, and adds the XFN for "my friend" > > I'm not really quoting or citing Julie for saying something, so I'm not sure > that is appropriate in this case. However, the markup I ended up > using is close to what you suggested. Here it is with white-space added for > readability: > > > > > Julie > > > > I've added this example to the hcard-authoring natural language hCard > section as well. > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 05:22:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 05:23:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] London, England event: BarCamp on "re-use of public sector information" 12 January 2008 Message-ID: Anyone in London fancy going to this, and speaking about microformats? The Office of Public Sector Information, part of The National Archives, is holding a conference to ask re-users of public sector information to shape the future of public sector information re-use. The event is open to anyone interested in public sector re-use and will take place on the 12 January 2008, at the Spey & Ness Rooms, City Inn. "The aim of the web channel is to present public sector information with a commercial value in a user friendly way that will encourage its re-use and simplify its uptake, by improving interaction between departments and end-users. The format of the final channel will have been shaped by the user community contributions through the web channel forum: and this BarCamp 'unconference'. "The event follows the decision to launch a web-based channel as recommended by the Power of Information report that will "improve the Government's responsiveness to demands for public sector information". If you would like to attend the event you can register and shape the agenda by visiting: "The 'unconference' will take place at Spey & Ness Rooms, City Inn, 30 John Islip Street, Westminster, London." I have added microformats to the proposed topics for discussion, even though I shall not be able to attend. -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 06:22:39 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 06:22:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 4 Jan 2008, at 18:29, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> On the names thing, I suppose I could be tagging something with >> the name >> "John Smith", in which case I'd use rel-tag, or making "John Smith" >> available to be downloaded as a vcard, in which case I'd use >> hcard. The >> semantics of "John Smith" haven't changed between those two >> examples. What >> I want to do with the phrase "John Smith" has, so the exact >> microformat I'd >> use depends on what I want to do with the names in the end, more >> than their >> semantics. > > But that's dependent on what *you"* want to do. If you use more > consistent mark-up, then your users, and parsers, can deal with > them as they see fit. > Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I want to do, in terms of marking up content, is determined by how people are going to use the web site. If people want more intelligent searches - 'show me manuscripts written by Captain Cook' - then rel-tag seems like the natural tool for marking up names. On the other hand, if people want more intelligent social networking - 'take me to Andy Mabbett's blog' - then marking up names wth hCard seems like the way forward. I don't see a use case for getting the contact details of Captain Cook. hCard does a specific job very, very well - it enhances social networking. I'm struggling to see, though, how it generalises to marking up the names of all people, living and dead. > For instance, adding a tag doesn't tell a future search engine that > your text is about a person. I think the answer to this is the rel-tag microformat coupled with sensible URLs to give much more intelligent tags. Imagine if the Maritime Museum archives used tags like: There's enough info in the HTML there to allow for some quite intelligent searching. Classes distinguishing between the different types of tag could be added to the links too. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 06:31:41 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 06:31:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) Message-ID: Hello, There are couple of markup examples on the hcard examples page which don't make sense semantically. The URL is http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition where you can see
US home address, for mail and shipments:
123 Main Street
Any Town, CA, 91921-1234
and immediately below it Please use the following address label for
local delivery to my home of mail and packages: 
Mr.John Q. Public, Esq.
Mail Drop: TNE QB
123 Main Street
Any Town, CA  91921-1234
U.S.A.
None of the tags are being used to mark up abbreviations, except maybe for 'US" where the expansion should be 'United States', not 'dom'. Is there a way of setting out these examples using semantic HTML? I'm worried that people, particularly those new to microfomats, will see that microformats.org supports semantic HTML and thus infer that examples, like these, on the wiki are written in semantic markup. These, quite clearly, are not. Cheers Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 06:40:57 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 06:41:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] London, England event: BarCamp on "re-use of public sector information" 12 January 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462B9C0B-86CB-48C7-BF6E-A6E0B1BD2CD0@eatyourgreens.org.uk> This sounds like something I should go to, but I believe I'm busy next Saturday too. If anyone does go, could they write it up somewhere please? Jim On 5 Jan 2008, at 13:22, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > > Anyone in London fancy going to this, and speaking about microformats? > > > > > The Office of Public Sector Information, part of The National > Archives, is holding a conference to ask re-users of public > sector information to shape the future of public sector > information re-use. The event is open to anyone interested in > public sector re-use and will take place on the 12 January > 2008, > at the Spey & Ness Rooms, City Inn. > > "The aim of the web channel is to present public sector > information with a commercial value in a user friendly way > that > will encourage its re-use and simplify its uptake, by > improving > interaction between departments and end-users. The format of > the final channel will have been shaped by the user community > contributions through the web channel forum: > > > > and this BarCamp 'unconference'. > > "The event follows the decision to launch a web-based > channel as > recommended by the Power of Information report that will > "improve the Government's responsiveness to demands for public > sector information". If you would like to attend the event you > can register and shape the agenda by visiting: > > > > "The 'unconference' will take place at Spey & Ness Rooms, City > Inn, 30 John Islip Street, Westminster, London." > > I have added microformats to the proposed topics for discussion, even > though I shall not be able to attend. > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 08:07:18 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 08:08:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >On 4 Jan 2008, at 18:29, Andy Mabbett wrote: >>>the exact microformat I'd >>> use depends on what I want to do with the names in the end, more >>>than their >>> semantics. >> >> But that's dependent on what *you"* want to do. If you use more >>consistent mark-up, then your users, and parsers, can deal with them >>as they see fit. >> >Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I want to do, in terms of >marking up content, is determined by how people are going to use the >web site. Yes, but you don't know how people are going to use it. >If people want more intelligent searches - 'show me manuscripts >written by Captain Cook' - then rel-tag seems like the natural tool >for marking up names. Suppose I want to know what Captain Cook drank; and that your manuscript includes a letter from Cook to a friend back home, saying "I don't miss much of home, but I could murder a pint of Mrs Hecklethump's famous beer" I need to tell a search engine to find all references to "Captain Cook" near "beer". But I also need to be able to specify that I don't want to know about the vast majority of returns for that search, which are about pubs called "Captain Cook", or the products of the Captain Cook Brewery (yes, ether is one!). So I need to be able to specify that I only want pages which refer to a person called "Captain Cook" - in other words, who has an hCard whose "honorary-prefix" is "Captain" and whose "given-name" is "Cook". [One day, I might also be able to search for "hBeverage" or some such (perhaps a subset of "hRecipe") instead of "beer", too.] That's how using hCard adds re-usable semantics to a person's name, even if that's the only "vcard" data you publish about them. [Aside: If I worked at Google, my 20% would be spent on developing a search engine capable of performing searches, based on microformats, whose "advanced search" allowed the user to search by individual attributes, including those which are implied. Or maybe that would be a good student project. Please don't forget this message, if it leads to you becoming the next Larry Page or Sergey Brin!] >I don't see a use case for getting the contact details of Captain >Cook. >hCard does a specific job very, very well - it enhances social >networking. I'm struggling to see, though, how it generalises to >marking up the names of all people, living and dead. As explained previously, hCard is not /just/ for contact details; it's "for representing people, companies, organizations, and places". That's quoted directly from its spec. And that's how it's already being used, "in the wild". If you want a robot to collect hCard contact details from one or more sites, and add them to your address book; and are concerned that other, hCards exist, with no contact details; then all you need to do is tell it to discard hCards where none of the relevant fields are present. >> For instance, adding a tag doesn't tell a future search engine that >>your text is about a person. > >I think the answer to this is the rel-tag microformat coupled with >sensible URLs to give much more intelligent tags. Imagine if the >Maritime Museum archives used tags like: > > > > >There's enough info in the HTML there to allow for some quite >intelligent searching. Only if you can get everyone to use the same URL structure, and to make all the subjects in their content into links. >Classes distinguishing between the different types of tag could be >added to the links too. Indeed - and the appropriate class, in the latter case, would be "vcard", with "fn, "honorary-prefix" and "given name" around the content as per the hCard spec. Why would you want to invent a new set of classes? -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 08:54:34 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 09:12:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 5 Jan 2008, at 16:07, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I want to do, in terms of >> marking up content, is determined by how people are going to use >> the web site. > > Yes, but you don't know how people are going to use it. > Yes I do. If I'm building an archive of documents related to maritime history, I've got a pretty good idea of how historians and amateur geneologists are going to use it. I don't know what sort of applications people might develop on top of our data, and I think that's where opening up museum collections gets really interesting. >> If people want more intelligent searches - 'show me manuscripts >> written by Captain Cook' - then rel-tag seems like the natural >> tool for marking up names. > > Suppose I want to know what Captain Cook drank; and that your > manuscript includes a letter from Cook to a friend back home, > saying "I don't miss much of home, but I could murder a pint of Mrs > Hecklethump's famous beer" > ...and the text referencing Cook within the letter, or article, is "James Cook" or "the captain of the Endeavour" or simply "James" but not "Captain Cook". > > So I need to be able to specify that I only want pages which refer > to a person called "Captain Cook" - in other words, who has an > hCard whose "honorary-prefix" is "Captain" and whose "given-name" > is "Cook". [One day, I might also be able to search for "hBeverage" > or some such (perhaps a subset of "hRecipe") instead of "beer", too.] > Or, better, you want a search which finds all text tagged as referring to a person whose canonical name is "Captain James Cook." That way, you don't have to worry that your search term needs to exactly match the text, only the tag. In fact, a clever enough search could probably find all tags which are names of people and are close matches to your search term, then find all the documents tagged with those tags. Something like this search I put together for our prints collection: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/prints/browseHeadings.cfm? filter=subjects&node=663 Tagging can handle this if there's a mechanism in place to put some context on the tag - indicate that it refers to a person, a place, a business or whatever. > That's how using hCard adds re-usable semantics to a person's name, > even if that's the only "vcard" data you publish about them. > Yes, but aren't you assuming that Cook's name, including rank, will be present in the text, which won't be the case. Cook didn't sign his letters "Captain Cook". He may well have signed personal letters simply as "James". >> I don't see a use case for getting the contact details of Captain >> Cook. > >> hCard does a specific job very, very well - it enhances social >> networking. I'm struggling to see, though, how it generalises to >> marking up the names of all people, living and dead. > > As explained previously, hCard is not /just/ for contact details; > it's "for representing people, companies, organizations, and > places". That's quoted directly from its spec. And that's how it's > already being used, "in the wild". > Are there any examples where it's being used for something other than social networking? > >>> For instance, adding a tag doesn't tell a future search engine >>> that your text is about a person. >> >> I think the answer to this is the rel-tag microformat coupled with >> sensible URLs to give much more intelligent tags. Imagine if the >> Maritime Museum archives used tags like: >> >> >> >> >> There's enough info in the HTML there to allow for some quite >> intelligent searching. > > Only if you can get everyone to use the same URL structure, and to > make all the subjects in their content into links. > Yes, that's why I'm interested in a lightweight, flexible solution that could be applied to archives in general, not just the holdings of the National Maritime Museum. >> Classes distinguishing between the different types of tag could >> be added to the links too. > > Indeed - and the appropriate class, in the latter case, would be > "vcard", with "fn, "honorary-prefix" and "given name" around the > content as per the hCard spec. Why would you want to invent a new > set of classes? I don't, if hcard will do the job. But I also have to be able to mark up the phrase 'William Hamilton's wife' with the name 'Emma Hamilton', using the same set of classes, to indicate that she's also a person. hcard applies to one very specific subset of reference strings, those which are the exact names of people, but not to reference strings in general. A solution that doesn't apply to all references to people may not be very useful to this particular problem. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From csarven at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 11:10:19 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Sat Jan 5 11:10:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as I know, the examples are focused more on the "type"s that are being used instead of semantic markup. I wrote this bit a while ago, perhaps it can be used: http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-examples#Use_of_dl_element I agree examples should be as semantic as possible, however there are many instances where the formats are not bound to any particular element(s) as far as semantics are concerned. For instance, hCard information can be presented in
or or
  • tags. Therefore, it may be more appropriate to suggest that semantic markup should be used in context of the document. -Sarven On Jan 5, 2008 9:31 AM, Jim O'Donnell wrote: > Hello, > > There are couple of markup examples on the hcard examples page which > don't make sense semantically. The URL is > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition > where you can see >
    > US > home address, for > mail and > shipments: >
    123 Main Street
    > Any Town, CA span>, > 91921-1234 >
    > > and immediately below it > Please use the following address label for >
    > local delivery > to my home > of mail > and packages: > 
    > Mr.John Q. Public, Esq.
> Mail Drop: TNE QB
> 123 Main Street
> Any Town, CA  91921-1234
> U.S.A.
>
    >
    > > None of the tags are being used to mark up abbreviations, > except maybe for 'US" where the expansion should be 'United States', > not 'dom'. > > Is there a way of setting out these examples using semantic HTML? I'm > worried that people, particularly those new to microfomats, will see > that microformats.org supports semantic HTML and thus infer that > examples, like these, on the wiki are written in semantic markup. > These, quite clearly, are not. > > Cheers > Jim > > Jim O'Donnell > jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk > http://eatyourgreens.org.uk > http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 12:07:51 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 12:09:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >He may well have signed personal letters simply as "James". In which case: James Though presumably your pages would have an introduction, or at elast a heading, giving his name as "James Cook". >> As explained previously, hCard is not /just/ for contact details; >>it's "for representing people, companies, organizations, and >>places". That's quoted directly from its spec. And that's how it's >>already being used, "in the wild". >> >Are there any examples where it's being used for something other than >social networking? Many: here's one: >> Indeed - and the appropriate class, in the latter case, would be >>"vcard", with "fn, "honorary-prefix" and "given name" around the >>content as per the hCard spec. Why would you want to invent a new >>set of classes? > > >I don't, if hcard will do the job. But I also have to be able to mark >up the phrase 'William Hamilton's wife' with the name 'Emma Hamilton', >using the same set of classes, to indicate that she's also a person. If her name is elsewhere on the page,; use the "include-pattern". If not, you're introducing "hidden metadata". > hcard applies to one very specific subset of reference strings, those >which are the exact names of people, but not to reference strings in >general. A solution that doesn't apply to all references to people may >not be very useful to this particular problem. Well, for your particular problem you can use hCards *and* tagging for names: and just tagging for more oblique references (hidden metadata issues not withstanding): The desire to use the latter does not render the former invalid, nor superfluous. You can add a class of, say, "person" to each, if that suits your needs. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 13:10:43 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 13:12:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Sarven Capadisli writes >On Jan 5, 2008 9:31 AM, Jim O'Donnell wrote: >> US >> shipments: >> local delivery >> None of the tags are being used to mark up abbreviations, >> except maybe for 'US" where the expansion should be 'United States', >> not 'dom'. >I agree examples should be as semantic as possible, however there are >many instances where the formats are not bound to any particular >element(s) as far as semantics are concerned. For instance, hCard >information can be presented in
    or
    • or
  • tags. >Therefore, it may be more appropriate to suggest that semantic markup >should be used in context of the document. You're quite correct; but in microformats "title" is only considered on "abbr", and where "abbr" is used, then it should be used in accordance with the HTML specs, not as in the examples above. It's long past time when this issue should have been properly addressed, and fixed. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 13:55:16 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 13:56:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A suggested method of publishing microformats in Twitter posts Message-ID: Described here: (aka ) -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 16:41:19 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 16:41:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: On 5 Jan 2008, at 20:07, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> I don't, if hcard will do the job. But I also have to be able to mark >> up the phrase 'William Hamilton's wife' with the name 'Emma >> Hamilton', >> using the same set of classes, to indicate that she's also a person. > > If her name is elsewhere on the page,; use the "include-pattern". > Hmmm, there are accessibility standards that museum sites have to achieve, which makes me nervous about using empty links without a very good reason. This is also the reason why I'm against having the pattern on our sites at work. Pepys Diary is a good example of what I have in mind for online versions of historical manuscripts: http://www.pepysdiary.com/ Wherever the original author makes a reference in their text to another person, we've got the option of linking that reference to a unique tag for that person, which could then present more info and an index of all documents tagged with that tag. With a large enough data set, we could cross reference tags to infer relationships between people, places, vessels and whatever else we represent with tags. That's something that's been at the back of my mind to do with the existing keywords in the Maritime Museum's prints & drawings archive. The more I think about this, the more it seems like rel-tag, with some additional contextual info, is the most elegant solution to handling the problem of how to handle the TEI tag in HTML. > If not, you're introducing "hidden metadata". I don't think so - that's covered in the rel-tag spec, so I'm fine with using tags in this manner. See: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Tags_Are_Visible_Metadata Cheers Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 16:51:50 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 16:51:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1273A9CE-4431-4AA7-9E10-32B5BE80A96D@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 5 Jan 2008, at 19:10, Sarven Capadisli wrote: > As far as I know, the examples are focused more on the "type"s that > are being used instead of semantic markup. Indeed, but people will take the code examples on the wiki as examples of best practice and copy them. The w3c added and the title attribute on all elements as accessibility enhancements to HTML. I think that one has to bear that in mind when giving examples of how to use them in real world markup. See http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/intro/intro.html#h-2.3.2 Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so that the content of title is used, if present, for class="type", no matter which element the class is present on? Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From Kaz at t-tec.com.au Sat Jan 5 19:34:16 2008 From: Kaz at t-tec.com.au (Katrina) Date: Sat Jan 5 19:33:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel Message-ID: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> Gday, Q1. Is there a way to specify if a url is personal or work-related, in a similar style to telephone numbers? I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want to label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the abbr, however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. eg. Phone Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? Phone Many thanks!!! Kat From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Sat Jan 5 19:39:51 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Sat Jan 5 19:40:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) In-Reply-To: <1273A9CE-4431-4AA7-9E10-32B5BE80A96D@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <1273A9CE-4431-4AA7-9E10-32B5BE80A96D@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <18050cf90801051939l35be212bxd26cbc90c45f7f41@mail.gmail.com> > Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so that the content > of title is used, if present, for class="type", no matter which > element the class is present on? It was decided to not go that way. Authors commonly have other title attributes in microformat sections that are not supposed to be interpreted as machine data. Authors would have to retrofit their existing code and remove existing titles from all affected microformat sections. -- Paul Wilkins From ryan at theryanking.com Sat Jan 5 20:20:37 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Sat Jan 5 20:20:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> On Jan 5, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Katrina wrote: > Gday, > > Q1. Is there a way to specify if a url is personal or work-related, > in a similar style to telephone numbers? > > > I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want > to label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the > abbr, however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. Right, which means you're trying to add information that's not already in the document. There's not a way to do this with microformats because they're made to markup existing and visible content. > eg. Phone > > Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? > Phone @title is only used for abbr for many reasons. I think we have an FAQ for it somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now. -ryan From Kaz at t-tec.com.au Sat Jan 5 20:43:03 2008 From: Kaz at t-tec.com.au (Katrina) Date: Sat Jan 5 20:43:03 2008 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel] Message-ID: <47805C57.4000809@t-tec.com.au> Sorry, I pressed reply thinking it would send to the list. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:10:56 +1030 From: Katrina Reply-To: Kaz@t-tec.com.au Organization: Temperature Technology To: ryan References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> ryan wrote: > On Jan 5, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Katrina wrote: >> Gday, >> >> I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want to >> label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the abbr, >> however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. > > Right, which means you're trying to add information that's not already > in the document. There's not a way to do this with microformats because > they're made to markup existing and visible content. The information is there in the document: it is in the context. The context means that all information is work related. Think business cards. They don't have work: 01234-01234 fax: 01234-01234 written on them. People know it's a work number, due to the context. Also, what sort of device is 'work'? Is it another fax? Is it a landline, teletype, modem or mobile, what is it? Instead, they have phone: 01234-01234 fax: 01234-01234 However, I think it needs to be more explicit on vCards so that when imported into address books, the information is placed into the correct fields. So my question is how to do that? Take the context and make it explicit in the hCard/vCard? > >> eg. Phone >> >> Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? >> Phone > > @title is only used for abbr for many reasons. If there is no way to specify context in the hCard, doesn't that mean that whether or not to use microformats is also a choice about semantic HTML? To choose to use abbr for things that they were never intended (hmmmm, memories of tables ;) )? Kat From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Sat Jan 5 21:39:44 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Sat Jan 5 21:39:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: <18050cf90801052139s2e63ac8as95b508939ec43262@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 6, 2008 4:34 PM, Katrina wrote: > I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want to > label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the abbr, > however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. > > eg. Phone > > Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? > Phone Unfortunately not. If you decide to not use the abbr pattern, the closest that you'll likely be happy with is Phone with the following css .hidden { display: none; } -- Paul Wilkins From mdagn at spraci.com Sat Jan 5 23:43:13 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Sat Jan 5 23:43:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using an external resource for the include-pattern In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200801060743.m067hLj38295@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> >I presume the "ease of implementation" is referring to a *parser* >grabbing the data from another resource. As far as marking up a >document, I don't see how the "vast majority of use cases" should >dictate this and it is certainly trivial to provide a >relative/absolute URL in the href (e.g. >href="http://www.csarven.ca#hcard") of the document. I think there is a case for something like this where there is optional extra data not required to make sense of the document itself but as a link to another document with more information about an item. Eg: a hCalender listing of upcoming festivals could provide a link inside each vevent to another hCalendar page listing when each act is playing at that festival (this could then be separate to the main "url" link for the item which might be the website for that festival). I do think however such external data should only be for optional stuff that the user might choose to look when they want to know more detail about an item and is probably best handled by some kind of simple link with a semantic classname describing what it is for rather than include-pattern (wouldn't that be forcing the user to look at that extra detail and wait for it to load even if they are not interested in it?) Perhaps there should also be a way to describe if an something on one page could be considered to be part of (like "child of") something else on another so that tools can relate them - eg tell that a vevent item about a specific session at a conference is actually part of a conference described in another item elsewhere else. Perhaps all that would be needed is a way to mark up those links to describe such relationships and also a way to mark up when something external is a more detailed version of the same item. (eg a hcard with just fn and org might have a link to another hcard for the same person somewhere else with full contact details) From mdagn at spraci.com Sun Jan 6 00:16:05 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Sun Jan 6 00:16:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator & Thunderbird In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200801060816.m068GDj39549@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> >Does anyone know if Operator supports microformats in HTML mail via >Thunderbird? If not, any plans? I would LOVE to see some of those event promoters who keep sending me those colourful html emails about events mark up their emails in hCalendar! ...or at least include *something* machine readable :-) I think there is actually more of a need for some easy-to-use authoring tools in email clients. From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sun Jan 6 02:43:24 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sun Jan 6 02:43:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 6 Jan 2008, at 04:20, ryan wrote: >> eg. Phone >> >> Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? >> Phone > > @title is only used for abbr for many reasons. I think we have an > FAQ for it somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now. There's one near the bottom of http://microformats.org/wiki/faq but it only mentions dates and times. Types don't work as abbreviations because you can't replace the word 'shipments' with 'parcel', or 'US' with 'dom'. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sun Jan 6 02:48:03 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sun Jan 6 02:48:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801051939l35be212bxd26cbc90c45f7f41@mail.gmail.com> References: <1273A9CE-4431-4AA7-9E10-32B5BE80A96D@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <18050cf90801051939l35be212bxd26cbc90c45f7f41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <842D9181-CC24-4BB1-8D54-61102CF6F759@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 6 Jan 2008, at 03:39, Paul Wilkins wrote: >> Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so that the content >> of title is used, if present, for class="type", no matter which >> element the class is present on? > > It was decided to not go that way. Authors commonly have other title > attributes in microformat sections that are not supposed to be > interpreted as machine data. Authors would have to retrofit their > existing code and remove existing titles from all affected microformat > sections. > So what's the way forward? Shrug our shoulders and accept for types as a kind of 'spacer-gif' for microformats? Surely there's a way to solve this without encouraging authors to misuse HTML. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sun Jan 6 12:19:00 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sun Jan 6 12:20:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801051939l35be212bxd26cbc90c45f7f41@mail.gmail.com> References: <1273A9CE-4431-4AA7-9E10-32B5BE80A96D@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <18050cf90801051939l35be212bxd26cbc90c45f7f41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <18050cf90801051939l35be212bxd26cbc90c45f7f41@mail.gmail.com>, Paul Wilkins writes >> Is it feasible to change the hCard parsing rules so that the content >> of title is used, if present, for class="type", no matter which >> element the class is present on? > >It was decided to not go that way. Decisions can be changed. >Authors commonly have other title attributes in microformat sections >that are not supposed to be interpreted as machine data. Authors would >have to retrofit their existing code and remove existing titles from >all affected microformat sections. Not if we adopt my recent proposal, and use a prefix like: 6 January -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sun Jan 6 12:30:10 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sun Jan 6 12:31:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: In message <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au>, Katrina writes >I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want to >label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the abbr, >however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. > >eg. Phone > >Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? >Phone We could - if there is sufficient support - adapt the recently-proposed "sub-microformat" pattern, so that: 5555555 becomes parsed as a "work-type" 'phone number. Alternatively (or additionally) we could adopt the previously suggested "data-title" pattern: Phone -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sun Jan 6 12:54:11 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sun Jan 6 12:55:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >> @title is only used for abbr for many reasons. I think we have an >>FAQ for it somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now. > >There's one near the bottom of http://microformats.org/wiki/faq but it >only mentions dates and times. Types don't work as abbreviations >because you can't replace the word 'shipments' with 'parcel', or 'US' >with 'dom'. Nor should you replace "31 Dec 2007" with "2008-01-01", as is currently done in: 31 Dec 2007 I can't understand how anyone ever thought that acceptable. We need a fix, such as (other issues with abbr notwithstanding): 31 Dec 2007 ASAP, to put the job of making exported ical end-dates exclusive in the hands of parsers, not publishers. [the class name could even be "last-day"] -- Andy Mabbett From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Sun Jan 6 21:37:03 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Sun Jan 6 21:37:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <18050cf90801062137p7b98b416rd18808ccc4a0c9da@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2008 9:54 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Nor should you replace "31 Dec 2007" with "2008-01-01", as is currently > done in: > > 31 Dec 2007 > > > I can't understand how anyone ever thought that acceptable. We're going to have to work through this then, because events that end at a certain time do not get pushed forward by a day. With dtend,if the time isn't known it's presumed to be midnight at the very start of the day. 31 Dec 2007 Would it be better if the parser interpreted an ending date with an unknown time as the very end of the stated day? 31 Dec 2007 -- Paul Wilkins From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sun Jan 6 23:10:33 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Sun Jan 6 23:07:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801062137p7b98b416rd18808ccc4a0c9da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/6/08 9:37 PM, "Paul Wilkins" wrote: > On Jan 7, 2008 9:54 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Nor should you replace "31 Dec 2007" with "2008-01-01", as is currently >> done in: >> >> 31 Dec 2007 >> >> >> I can't understand how anyone ever thought that acceptable. > > > We're going to have to work through this then, because events that end > at a certain time do not get pushed forward by a day. > > With dtend,if the time isn't known it's presumed to be midnight at the > very start of the day. > 31 Dec 2007 Right. Note that this is an already documented hCalendar issue: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-issues#dtend-date-plus1 Please add any follow-up there rather than in email. Thanks, Tantek From karl at w3.org Sun Jan 6 23:20:37 2008 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Sun Jan 6 23:20:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: <23C2D738-315E-4CBA-9D37-096A02D4BDB8@w3.org> Le 6 janv. 2008 ? 12:34, Katrina a ?crit : > Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? > Phone Just to make it clear. This is a valid HTML construct. So you can do it. I do not think it is understood by a microformat extractor (if it matters to you) -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Mon Jan 7 00:38:04 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Mon Jan 7 00:38:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RDFa Basics video (8 minutes) Message-ID: <4781E4EC.9030902@digitalbazaar.com> Finished an RDFa Basics video this weekend. It attempts to explain RDF, CURIEs, N3 and basic RDFa in 8 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldl0m-5zLz4 Thought some of you would want to learn about some of the upcoming features of XHTML2 as well as compare and contrast how RDFa differs from Microformats. Constructive feedback would be great, as I'll probably be doing the "advanced" RDFa tutorial in a month or so, and will need to know what worked and what didn't in the RDFa Basics video. A high-bitrate version, along with all source material, will be uploaded and put on the Digital Bazaar wiki tomorrow: http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/en/rdfa-basics -- manu From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 01:21:05 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 01:22:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801062137p7b98b416rd18808ccc4a0c9da@mail.gmail.com> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <18050cf90801062137p7b98b416rd18808ccc4a0c9da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <18050cf90801062137p7b98b416rd18808ccc4a0c9da@mail.gmail.com>, Paul Wilkins writes >On Jan 7, 2008 9:54 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Nor should you replace "31 Dec 2007" with "2008-01-01", as is currently >> done in: >> >> 31 Dec 2007 >> >> >> I can't understand how anyone ever thought that acceptable. > >We're going to have to work through this then, because events that end >at a certain time do not get pushed forward by a day. > >With dtend,if the time isn't known it's presumed to be midnight at the >very start of the day. > 31 Dec 2007 > >Would it be better if the parser interpreted an ending date with an >unknown time as the very end of the stated day? > 31 Dec 2007 No, it would be better if a parser accepted, say: 31 Dec 2007 and wrote "2008-01-01" when outputting an iCalendar file. That way, we'd be's following the microformats principle of applying semantics to the data people are already publishing; and making it less confusing for publishers to do so. -- Andy Mabbett are you using Microformats, yet: ? From bbtommorris at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 02:03:40 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Mon Jan 7 02:03:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Non-HTTP tags Message-ID: The rel-tag specification says that tags ought to be HTTP URIs. In a page I'm authoring at the moment, I'm using non-HTTP URIs as tags - specifically I'm using irc: URIs (like irc://irc.freenode.net/microformats) as tags. Operator seems fine with it. I'm wondering whether other tag parsers accept non-HTTP tags, and whether there is some kind of philosophical justification for the current HTTP only policy for tags. It seems to me that so long as the target resource URI conforms to the tag URI structure, it shouldn't matter what protocol it uses. Also, any thoughts on a rel-tag test suite? Specifications say, implementations show, tests prove, remember. :) -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From brian.suda at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 02:43:24 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Mon Jan 7 03:10:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Non-HTTP tags In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801070243p2bbaa3bbi2688fc50844a0a5e@mail.gmail.com> On 07/01/2008, Tom Morris wrote: > The rel-tag specification says that tags ought to be HTTP URIs. > > In a page I'm authoring at the moment, I'm using non-HTTP URIs as tags --- this is interesting. I can?t speak for the original intent of only HTTP, but one reason might be transparency. Anyone who wants to know what the tag "Turkey" might mean, can dereference the URL and get a page that further explains that term. This is why both the tag and tag-space are important. If we are using non-HTTP links, then some of that transparency is lost. irc://irc.freenode.net/microformats could be deferenece (debatable if the user is not familiar or don?t have an IRC client) then once you are there, there wouldn?t be much in the way of human-readable text to further explain what "microformats" means. Again, debatable because the channel would be full of people who could explain what that term means. > ... there is some kind of philosophical > justification for the current HTTP only policy for tags. It seems to > me that so long as the target resource URI conforms to the tag URI > structure, it shouldn't matter what protocol it uses. --- i would say that it would need to dereference to something that explains the term more, not all protocols would do this. > Also, any thoughts on a rel-tag test suite? Specifications say, > implementations show, tests prove, remember. :) --- there is a basic test suite at hg.microformats.org, but the only rel-tag tests are in conjunction with compound microformats. A rel-tag test suite would be welcomed. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 03:08:34 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 03:12:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Non-HTTP tags In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29868.80.249.57.38.1199704114.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Mon, January 7, 2008 10:03, Tom Morris wrote: > The rel-tag specification says that tags ought to be HTTP URIs. > In a page I'm authoring at the moment, I'm using non-HTTP URIs as tags > - specifically I'm using irc: URIs (like > irc://irc.freenode.net/microformats) as tags. > Operator seems fine with it. Operator finds no tag in: > It seems to me that so long as the target resource URI conforms to > the tag URI structure, it shouldn't matter what protocol it uses. Likewise; though in the above example we might need to define that the tag is: tel:+441215555555 or: +441215555555 as there is no slash to act as a delimiter. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From jeremy at adactio.com Mon Jan 7 03:30:08 2008 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Mon Jan 7 03:30:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm very late responding to this but... Andy wrote: > the proposal to codify hCards for places by making the "fn" and the > "extended-address" the same, though elegant, does not work in all > cases. > > Consider an hCard for a City, "Birmingham, England": Birmingham may be > the "fn" and the "locality", but it's not an "extended-address". > > Perhaps the rule should be that the hCard is for a place if the > "fn" is > on *any* address ("adr") child-component [1] (e.g. "fn locality" or > "fn > street-address")? This strikes me as being pretty workable. I'm mentally kicking the tyres and this seems like quite a robust solution. I'd be interested to hear from Brian and/or Mike about how tricky this might be to implement. Effectively this would be creating a whole bunch of fn shorthands. Right now we have: fn org fn nickname With this solution we would also have: fn post-office-box fn extended-address fn street-address fn locality fn postal-code fn region fn country-name Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From ryan at theryanking.com Mon Jan 7 10:43:32 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Mon Jan 7 10:43:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2008, at 12:30 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au>, Katrina > writes > >> I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want to >> label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the abbr, >> however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. >> >> eg. Phone >> >> Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? >> Phone > > > We could - if there is sufficient support - adapt the recently- > proposed > "sub-microformat" pattern, so that: > > 5555555 > > becomes parsed as a "work-type" 'phone number. I don't think we want to do this, because it puts human-readable data ("work") in a spot that's no longer visible. -ryan From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Jan 7 10:20:32 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Jan 7 10:48:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RDFa Basics video (8 minutes) In-Reply-To: <4781E4EC.9030902@digitalbazaar.com> References: <4781E4EC.9030902@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <47826D70.1080404@brixlogic.com> Manu Sporny wrote: > Constructive feedback would be great, as I'll probably be doing the > "advanced" RDFa tutorial in a month or so, and will need to know what > worked and what didn't in the RDFa Basics video. > > I'm relatively new to RDFa and this is a great introduction. I'm probably going to say things you've already heard, so please bear with me. For someone like me who has learnt to value the accessibility of standards, the brutally honest takeaway of your introduction is that RDFa does what microformats do and probably more (otherwise why would it exist?), but not clear what exactly and plus it requires XHTML 2.0 and complex syntax. So, when comparing uf and RDFa, adopting RDFa seems a huge leap of faith and a lot of work considering it requires XHTML 2.0 and your introduction does not mention any application supporting RDFa... So, if the goal of this video is to evangelize RDFa to a large audience, I think it would be great to explain why (ex. why id, class and a/href/rel haven't been leveraged more to represent RDF triples) and also explain how an implementation can best leverage the backward-compatibility/evolutionary benefits of microformats with the RDFa more formalist and consistency with other w3 standards. Last, if you believe like me that applications drive standards, not the reverse, then I think what will ultimately get people excited is to have a demonstration of how this content can be leveraged by an application once published and gathered in a RDF store. In an ideal world, putting a aside resource constraints issues, if I had to evangelize RDFa, I would start with the application, for instance showing content in a browser, then showing how it's possible to type queries against this content in a browser plugin. Then only I would show the implementation, and at the end possibly, adoption numbers such as how many people have downloaded the plugin so far. My 2 cents. Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 11:52:58 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 11:54:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: <$kflg3MaMogHFwjm@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , ryan writes >On Jan 6, 2008, at 12:30 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au>, Katrina >> writes >> >>> I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want to >>> label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the abbr, >>> however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. >>> >>> eg. Phone >>> >>> Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? >>> Phone >> >> >> We could - if there is sufficient support - adapt the recently- >>proposed >> "sub-microformat" pattern, so that: >> >> 5555555 >> >> becomes parsed as a "work-type" 'phone number. > >I don't think we want to do this, because it puts human-readable data >("work") in a spot that's no longer visible. Except that, as the OP stated, that it's a work number is clear from the context. In any case, how is that different from: 7 Jan where "2008" is "hidden"? -- Andy Mabbett From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Mon Jan 7 12:31:05 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Mon Jan 7 12:31:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RDFa Basics video (8 minutes) In-Reply-To: <47826D70.1080404@brixlogic.com> References: <4781E4EC.9030902@digitalbazaar.com> <47826D70.1080404@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <47828C09.4010603@digitalbazaar.com> Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Manu Sporny wrote: >> Constructive feedback would be great, as I'll probably be doing the >> "advanced" RDFa tutorial in a month or so, and will need to know what >> worked and what didn't in the RDFa Basics video. >> > I'm relatively new to RDFa and this is a great introduction. I'm > probably going to say things you've already heard, so please bear with me. Any feedback is really appreciated, so I thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts on the video[1] :) > So, when comparing uf and RDFa, adopting RDFa seems a > huge leap of faith and a lot of work considering it requires XHTML 2.0 Ooops, looks like my post lead to some confusion. RDFa works with any version of XHTML. You can write valid RDFa today. t's not an "it's going to happen in the future" thing - you can author RDFa today (for example, Operator already has RDFa support). > and your introduction does not mention any application supporting RDFa... That's true, there aren't many applications that use RDFa today... mostly because the standard is just being finalized. The semantic web stuff has been brewing in academia for almost a decade. We have the Microformats community to thank for getting the message about why semantics are important in web pages... so, I think that we're really at the cusp of this stuff taking off. > So, if the goal of this video is to evangelize RDFa to a large audience, Hmm... the goal of the video wasn't necessarily to evangelize RDFa - it was to educate web developers about some basic semantic web concepts. It was supposed to teach people very briefly about the power of RDF, what a CURIE is, what N3 notation is, and how you can express semantic information in XHTML web pages using RDFa. Do you think it achieved that goal, or did it fall short for some reason? Was there too much going on in each part of the video? > I think it would be great to explain why (ex. why id, class and > a/href/rel haven't been leveraged more to represent RDF triples) [FULL DISCLOSURE: I am on the W3C RDFa task force... take what I have ] [ to say with a grain of salt. ] I'll explain here, just so you know. I don't know how many people know this, but XHTML is extensible in that you can add modules to extend XHTML. These modules define new attributes and tags that can be used in a valid XHTML document. RDFa is an extension to XHTML, and works with all current browsers that support XHTML. @id isn't used because it must be unique to a page. It also already had a different set of semantics associated with it in XHTML and it doesn't allow CURIEs, AFAIK. @about is used instead. @class wasn't used because they didn't want to stomp on the Microformats community's implementation, among other reasons. In certain RDFa implementations, bad things happened when you mixed RDFa and Microformats on the same page. @about is used instead. @href and @rel were re-used. @href is used to denote a object, while @rel is used to denote predicates. The current implementation makes sure to take the semantics of the pre-existing XHTML standard into account, the following attributes were used from XHTML: @rel, @rev, @href, @src These attributes were added in XHTML+RDFa: @about, @instanceof, @resource, @property, @datatype, @content I should mention that while RDFa may seem more complex than Microformats (and in some cases it is)... there are no issues with ABBR or @title mis-use/abuse. These endless debates we seem to have over "where do we place the ISO machine readable data in the Microformat?", are a non-issue in RDFa. > also explain how an implementation can best leverage the > backward-compatibility/evolutionary benefits of microformats with the > RDFa more formalist and consistency with other w3 standards. Thanks for the suggestion - I'll try to put that in the next video, or a video comparing/contrasting Microformats and RDFa. We need both... like any syntax, each has its benefits and drawbacks. > Last, if you believe like me that applications drive standards, not the > reverse, then I think what will ultimately get people excited is to have > a demonstration of how this content can be leveraged by an application > once published and gathered in a RDF store. You're right, the proof of the greatness of any technology is in it's adoption rate and the number of applications that are written using that technology. > if I had to evangelize RDFa, I would > start with the application, for instance showing content in a browser, > then showing how it's possible to type queries against this content in a > browser plugin. Then only I would show the implementation, and at the > end possibly, adoption numbers such as how many people have downloaded > the plugin so far. We hope to do just that this year... using the hAudio Microformat as well as hAUdio RDFa. I guess we have to start somewhere, and this video was an attempt at just that... Thanks a bunch for your feedback, Guillaume - it is definitely appreciated :) -- manu [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldl0m-5zLz4 From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Jan 7 13:30:10 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Jan 7 13:30:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RDFa Basics video (8 minutes) In-Reply-To: <47828C09.4010603@digitalbazaar.com> References: <4781E4EC.9030902@digitalbazaar.com> <47826D70.1080404@brixlogic.com> <47828C09.4010603@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <316BCEBE-2266-463B-9BCA-D2E81EA9A388@randomchaos.com> On Jan 7, 2008, at 1:31 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: > @class wasn't used because they didn't want to stomp on the > Microformats > community's implementation, among other reasons. In certain RDFa > implementations, bad things happened when you mixed RDFa and > Microformats on the same page. Can you maybe elaborate on the "bad things" you mention here? There should be nothing about microformats that prevented RDFa from using the class attribute, as there's no monopoly on the class attribute. Were those implementations that didn't involve any namespaces nor profiles? I don't see how there could be any conflict with namespaces (since microformats have no namespaces), and a lack of namespaces seems antithetical to my understanding of RDF. Peace, Scott From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Jan 7 14:08:18 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Jan 7 14:05:34 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <$kflg3MaMogHFwjm@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On 1/7/08 11:52 AM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message , ryan > writes > >> On Jan 6, 2008, at 12:30 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >>> In message <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au>, Katrina >>> writes >>> >>>> I want to specify a work-related telephone number, but I just want to >>>> label it 'Phone:'. The closest I can find to do this is the abbr, >>>> however, work is not an abbreviation of 'phone'. >>>> >>>> eg. Phone >>>> >>>> Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? >>>> Phone >>> >>> >>> We could - if there is sufficient support - adapt the recently- >>> proposed >>> "sub-microformat" pattern, so that: >>> >>> 5555555 >>> >>> becomes parsed as a "work-type" 'phone number. >> >> I don't think we want to do this, because it puts human-readable data >> ("work") in a spot that's no longer visible. > > Except that, as the OP stated, that it's a work number is clear from the > context. > > In any case, how is that different from: > > 7 Jan > > where "2008" is "hidden"? title attribute is displayed in tool-tips and thus is at least semi-visible and thus human verifiable. class attribute is not. Tantek From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 14:42:07 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 14:43:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <$kflg3MaMogHFwjm@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <4xm01xS$qqgHFwDs@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Tantek ?elik writes >> In any case, how is that different from: >> >> 7 Jan >> >> where "2008" is "hidden"? > >title attribute is displayed in tool-tips in some, but far from all, browsers. Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a variety of ways. Nothing about tool-tips there. > Perhaps you might wait for resolution of such issues before imposing your own view on the wiki. -- Andy Mabbett From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Jan 7 15:05:55 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Jan 7 15:03:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4xm01xS$qqgHFwDs@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On 1/7/08 2:42 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message , Tantek ?elik > writes > >>> In any case, how is that different from: >>> >>> 7 Jan >>> >>> where "2008" is "hidden"? >> >> title attribute is displayed in tool-tips > > in some, but far from all, browsers. > > > > Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in > a variety of ways. > > Nothing about tool-tips there. Nonetheless what browsers do implement is a fact. >> > _names.3F> > > Perhaps you might wait for resolution of such issues before imposing > your own view on the wiki. Data in the class attribute is a known anti-pattern. Not a new issue. Tantek From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 15:46:05 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 15:47:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <4xm01xS$qqgHFwDs@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message , Tantek ?elik writes >>> title attribute is displayed in tool-tips >> >> in some, but far from all, browsers. >> >> >> >> Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in >> a variety of ways. >> >> Nothing about tool-tips there. > >Nonetheless what browsers do implement is a fact. The "fact" is that that's what *some* browsers do. Many do not. >>> >> _names.3F> >> >> Perhaps you might wait for resolution of such issues before imposing >> your own view on the wiki. > >Data in the class attribute is a known anti-pattern. extended-address, street-address, locality, region - all just as much data in class attributes. > Not a new issue. Perhaps not a new issue.; but also not a black-&-white issue. -- Andy Mabbett From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Jan 7 15:56:23 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Jan 7 15:53:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/7/08 3:46 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: >> Data in the class attribute is a known anti-pattern. > > extended-address, street-address, locality, region - all just as much > data in class attributes. properties!=values. types/schema are not "just as much" data. Tantek From Kaz at t-tec.com.au Mon Jan 7 16:01:03 2008 From: Kaz at t-tec.com.au (Katrina) Date: Mon Jan 7 16:00:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 1/7/08 2:42 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > >> In message , Tantek ?elik >> writes >> >>>> In any case, how is that different from: >>>> >>>> 7 Jan >>>> >>>> where "2008" is "hidden"? >>> title attribute is displayed in tool-tips >> in some, but far from all, browsers. >> >> >> >> Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in >> a variety of ways. >> >> > > Data in the class attribute is a known anti-pattern. Not a new issue. > I admit I am new to microformats, however, I have always understood class attributes to hold a type of data: meta-data. They describe what sort of data that particular element holds. So if you have a list of books, instead of giving it a class attribute of red or blue, it should be labeled "books". Or more pertinent to the microformats, class="vcard". vcard is meta-data saying that this particular element holds a vcard. Reading this: http://microformats.org/wiki/anti-patterns#data_in_class_attributes I just don't seem to understand how the Microformats community decides what sort of meta-data is acceptable and what others aren't? I also thought that Microformats were to take human data and translate that into machine-readable. In order to do so, context needs to be translated to make it machine readable. If you come across a business selling something, as a human, you can determine that it is work related, and it doesn't need to be labeled 'work'. However, a machine cannot make that distinction and needs to be explicitly told. How does the Microformats community then allow people normal contextual communication but also specifies the contextual data for machines? Surely the way to do that is through meta-data? Kat From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Jan 7 16:22:23 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Jan 7 16:19:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/7/08 4:01 PM, "Katrina" wrote: > Tantek ?elik wrote: >> On 1/7/08 2:42 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: >> >>> In message , Tantek ?elik >>> writes >>> >>>>> In any case, how is that different from: >>>>> >>>>> 7 Jan >>>>> >>>>> where "2008" is "hidden"? >>>> title attribute is displayed in tool-tips >>> in some, but far from all, browsers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in >>> a variety of ways. >>> >>> >> >> Data in the class attribute is a known anti-pattern. Not a new issue. >> > > I admit I am new to microformats, however, I have always understood > class attributes to hold a type of data: meta-data. They describe what > sort of data that particular element holds. Hi Katrina, "what sort of data" is what a "type" is, and a type is very distinct from data itself. E.g. integer is a type. -1,0,1 are examples of data of that type. > So if you have a list of > books, instead of giving it a class attribute of red or blue, it should > be labeled "books". > > Or more pertinent to the microformats, class="vcard". vcard is meta-data > saying that this particular element holds a vcard. It is a very specific kind of meta-data that is a type. Similar to how the

    tag is saying this particular element holds a paragraph. > Reading this: > http://microformats.org/wiki/anti-patterns#data_in_class_attributes > > I just don't seem to understand how the Microformats community decides > what sort of meta-data is acceptable and what others aren't? In general, the term meta-data tends to be more confusing than illuminating, it means too many different things to different people, and thus we try to avoid its use in discussions. microformats simply extend the typing/schema information that HTML itself has. Where HTML has a limited vocabulary to markup what data/content is paragraphs, blockquotes etc. microformats extends that limited vocabulary, also in a limited way, to markup what data/content is people, organizations etc. > I also thought that Microformats were to take human data and translate > that into machine-readable. Not quite. Mostly microformats just markup existing data in the page so that machines can find it and know what type of data it is. In some instances a machine-readable instance of the data is necessary, but those are both the minority and minimized if at all possible. > In order to do so, context needs to be > translated to make it machine readable. > > If you come across a business selling something, as a human, you can > determine that it is work related, and it doesn't need to be labeled > 'work'. However, a machine cannot make that distinction and needs to be > explicitly told. How does the Microformats community then allow people > normal contextual communication but also specifies the contextual data > for machines? The broader problem of arbitrarily extracting meaning from any human prose is an Artificial Intelligence problem far beyond that of microformats, and is deliberately not a goal. Hence why microformats focus on real world examples on the web that are also *common*. > Surely the way to do that is through meta-data? See above. The term meta-data is too heavily overloaded to be really useful in a discussion. Thanks, Tantek From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 16:46:04 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 16:47:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8Fq142ZMfsgHFwA2@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Tantek ?elik writes >On 1/7/08 3:46 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > >>> Data in the class attribute is a known anti-pattern. >> >> extended-address, street-address, locality, region - all just as much >> data in class attributes. > >properties!=values. types/schema are not "just as much" data. You seem to be making unsubstantiated assertions and arbitrary distinctions. Consider: street- vs. extended- address work- vs. home- tel given- vs. additional- name -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 16:58:14 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 16:59:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: In message <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au>, Katrina writes >I just don't seem to understand how the Microformats community decides >what sort of meta-data is acceptable and what others aren't? The /community/ doesn't. That's part of the problem. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 7 16:59:55 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 7 17:01:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: In message , Tantek ?elik writes > Mostly microformats just markup existing data in the page so that >machines can find it and know what type of data it is. The name: Rebecca Jayne Smith can be marked up - correctly and validly - as either: Rebecca Jayne Smith or: Rebecca Jayne Smith The "given" and "additional" names are not indicated on the page; not even by context. >Hence why microformats focus on real world examples on the web that are >also *common*. And people *commonly* publish what are clearly and unambiguously (to humans, but not, without the additional mark-up of a microformat, to machines) home or work telephone numbers, without saying as much on the page. When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that labelled each telephone number as "work"? When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that included the managers' home numbers? -- Andy Mabbett From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Jan 7 17:14:56 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Jan 7 17:12:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <8Fq142ZMfsgHFwA2@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On 1/7/08 4:46 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message , Tantek ?elik > writes > >> On 1/7/08 3:46 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: >> >>>> Data in the class attribute is a known anti-pattern. >>> >>> extended-address, street-address, locality, region - all just as much >>> data in class attributes. >> >> properties!=values. types/schema are not "just as much" data. > > You seem to be making unsubstantiated assertions and arbitrary > distinctions. Please stop making the assumption of lack of foundation logical flaw. http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-list#Avoid_logical_flaws The distinction of properties, values, types, schema etc. are well documented computer science terms. Rather than asserting "unsubstantiated assertions and arbitrary distinctions", if you don't understand such distinctions, ask. One way to learn more about such distinctions is to pick up a book or two on computer science and data structure and learn about them. > Consider: > > street- vs. extended- address sub-properties of adr property > > given- vs. additional- name sub-properties of n property > work- vs. home- tel *values* for 'type' sub-property of tel property. These distinctions come from RFC 2426 as well as http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-design-methodology Read both carefully to understand these distinctions better. On 1/7/08 4:59 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message , Tantek ?elik > writes > >> Mostly microformats just markup existing data in the page so that >> machines can find it and know what type of data it is. > The "given" and "additional" names are not indicated on the page; not > even by context. Please provide the real world example URL for "the page" mentioned, otherwise it is pointless to argue about it. http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-list#Use_real_world_examples And add it to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues >> Hence why microformats focus on real world examples on the web that are >> also *common*. > > And people *commonly* publish what are clearly and unambiguously (to > humans, but not, without the additional mark-up of a microformat, to > machines) home or work telephone numbers, without saying as much on the > page. Same thing. needs real world example URL. please document on hcard-issues. Tantek From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Jan 7 17:19:17 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Jan 7 17:19:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > > When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that labelled > each telephone number as "work"? > > When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that included > the managers' home numbers? > > In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone number not being a work number when both a person's formatted name and organization name were present? So, to avoid the meta discussion and go back to Kat's specific problem (she wants to specify a phone as work but without the content containing "work" or any of its abbreviations), maybe something that would work would be to have an implied 'work' tel type when a fn and an org that are both present and a tel type is not present. I believe we could have an implied 'voice' type in this case as well. Sorry in advance if this idea has already been proposed/discussed. Guillaume From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Jan 7 17:27:49 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Mon Jan 7 17:25:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: On 1/7/08 5:19 PM, "Guillaume Lebleu" wrote: > to avoid the meta discussion and go back to Kat's specific problem > (she wants to specify a phone as work but without the content containing > "work" or any of its abbreviations), maybe something that would work > would be to have an implied 'work' tel type when a fn and an org that > are both present and a tel type is not present. I believe we could have > an implied 'voice' type in this case as well. > > Sorry in advance if this idea has already been proposed/discussed. Hi Guillaume, "voice" in fact is already default value of the type sub-property for tel: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#adr_tel_email_types Perhaps you could document your brainstorm for implied 'work' tel type when fn and org are present (and the same? is this for organization hCards only?) on the hCard brainstorming page? http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming Citations of URLs of real world examples that demonstrate this use case would help in consideration. Thanks, Tantek From gl at brixlogic.com Mon Jan 7 17:56:45 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Jan 7 17:56:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4782D85D.4050402@brixlogic.com> Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 1/7/08 5:19 PM, "Guillaume Lebleu" wrote: > > "voice" in fact is already default value of the type sub-property for tel: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#adr_tel_email_types > Thanks for the pointer. Sorry I missed that. > Perhaps you could document your brainstorm for implied 'work' tel type when > fn and org are present (and the same? is this for organization hCards only?) > on the hCard brainstorming page? > Just did at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Implied_work_tel Guillaume From Kaz at t-tec.com.au Mon Jan 7 19:34:38 2008 From: Kaz at t-tec.com.au (Katrina) Date: Mon Jan 7 19:34:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <4782EF4E.3040409@t-tec.com.au> Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that labelled >> each telephone number as "work"? >> >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that included >> the managers' home numbers? >> >> > In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone number > not being a work number when both a person's formatted name and > organization name were present? > > So, to avoid the meta discussion and go back to Kat's specific problem > (she wants to specify a phone as work but without the content containing > "work" or any of its abbreviations), maybe something that would work > would be to have an implied 'work' tel type when a fn and an org that > are both present and a tel type is not present. I believe we could have > an implied 'voice' type in this case as well. > > Sorry in advance if this idea has already been proposed/discussed. > Awesome and Brilliant. Thanks Guillaume and Tantek! :)) Kat From csarven at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 19:47:42 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Mon Jan 7 19:47:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4782EF4E.3040409@t-tec.com.au> References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> <4782EF4E.3040409@t-tec.com.au> Message-ID: I suppose I should have posted this in the mailing list: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2007-12-06#T192503 -Sarven On 1/7/08, Katrina wrote: > Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > > Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> > >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that labelled > >> each telephone number as "work"? > >> > >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that included > >> the managers' home numbers? > >> > >> > > In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone number > > not being a work number when both a person's formatted name and > > organization name were present? > > > > So, to avoid the meta discussion and go back to Kat's specific problem > > (she wants to specify a phone as work but without the content containing > > "work" or any of its abbreviations), maybe something that would work > > would be to have an implied 'work' tel type when a fn and an org that > > are both present and a tel type is not present. I believe we could have > > an implied 'voice' type in this case as well. > > > > Sorry in advance if this idea has already been proposed/discussed. > > > > Awesome and Brilliant. > > Thanks Guillaume and Tantek! :)) > > Kat > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 00:08:35 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 00:09:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <8Fq142ZMfsgHFwA2@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: In message , Tantek ?elik writes >>> properties!=values. types/schema are not "just as much" data. >> >> You seem to be making unsubstantiated assertions and arbitrary >> distinctions. > >Please stop making the assumption of lack of foundation logical flaw. I made no "logical flaw". You posted assertions; and made no attempt to substantiate them. >http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-list#Avoid_logical_flaws > >n_or_justification> Posting URLs of your own assertions on the wiki as though they were evidence contributed little to the debate. >The distinction of properties, values, types, schema etc. are well >documented computer science terms. > >Rather than asserting "unsubstantiated assertions and arbitrary >distinctions", if you don't understand such distinctions, ask. I understand, thank you. That does not mean that I agree with your use of the terms. > One way to >learn more about such distinctions is to pick up a book or two on computer >science and data structure and learn about them. Yes; they told me that a few years before they awarded me my degree in the subject. Your "snarky" comment, against your own policy, also adds little to the debate. >> Consider: >> >> street- vs. extended- address > >sub-properties of adr property > >> >> given- vs. additional- name > >sub-properties of n property > > >> work- vs. home- tel > >*values* for 'type' sub-property of tel property. Arbitrary distinctions. >These distinctions come from RFC 2426 as well as >http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-design-methodology >Read both carefully to understand these distinctions better. I'm fully aware of both the source and meaning of those terms. >On 1/7/08 4:59 PM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > >> In message , Tantek ?elik >> writes >> >>> Mostly microformats just markup existing data in the page so that >>> machines can find it and know what type of data it is. > > The examples were not theoretical, but real (though surname changed out of courtesy to the person concerned. >> The "given" and "additional" names are not indicated on the page; not >> even by context. >>> Hence why microformats focus on real world examples on the web that are >>> also *common*. >> >> And people *commonly* publish what are clearly and unambiguously (to >> humans, but not, without the additional mark-up of a microformat, to >> machines) home or work telephone numbers, without saying as much on the >> page. > >Same thing. needs real world example URL. please document on hcard-issues. OFFS! -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 00:09:32 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 00:11:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: In message <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that labelled >> each telephone number as "work"? >> >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that included >> the managers' home numbers? >> >> >In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone number >not being a work number when both a person's formatted name and >organization name were present? Today. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 00:16:05 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 00:17:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <7EYkYCgFFzgHFwxH@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that labelled >> each telephone number as "work"? >> >> When did you last see a listing of, say, Pizza restaurants that included >> the managers' home numbers? >> >> >In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone number >not being a work number when both a person's formatted name and >organization name were present? Today - and nearly every time I look at a contact page about someone who does voluntary work. > maybe something that would work would be to have an implied 'work' >tel type when a fn and an org that are both present and a tel type is >not present. The same thought occurred to me a few hours ago, but I soon realised that it would add semantic meaning, incorrectly, to a number of existing hCards. -- Andy Mabbett From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Tue Jan 8 01:29:34 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Tue Jan 8 01:29:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes Message-ID: Hello! I'm looking into marking up contact details for tv and radio programmes Typically they have a telephone number, an email address, possibly a fax number and often a sms short code Is there a preferred way to mark-up the sms short code? http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 01:46:17 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 01:46:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24698.80.249.57.38.1199785577.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Tue, January 8, 2008 09:29, Michael Smethurst wrote: > I'm looking into marking up contact details for tv and radio programmes > > > Typically they have a telephone number, an email address, possibly a fax > number and often a sms short code > > Is there a preferred way to mark-up the sms short code? Good pint. The nearest at the meont is "type=cell", but such numebrs usually canot be dialled for a voice acall, soa seaprte type woudl make sense. I;ve added the issue here: From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 01:48:42 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 01:48:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Tue, January 8, 2008 09:29, Michael Smethurst wrote: > I'm looking into marking up contact details for tv and radio programmes > > > Typically they have a telephone number, an email address, possibly a fax > number and often a sms short code > > Is there a preferred way to mark-up the sms short code? Good point. The nearest at the moment is "type=cell", but since such numbers usually cannot be dialled for voice calls, that's not really appropriate. I've added the issue here: and will raise it with the group being formed to look at revising vCard. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From axelm at nona.net Tue Jan 8 03:08:30 2008 From: axelm at nona.net (Alex Mayrhofer) Date: Tue Jan 8 03:08:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <478359AE.3010807@nona.net> Andy Mabbett wrote: > I've added the issue here: > > > > and will raise it with the group being formed to look at revising vCard. Hi, it might be a good idea to look at the proposed registry for "tel:" URI parameters (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iptel-tel-reg-04). Especially the "phone-context" URI parameter (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3966) could prove to be useful in such cases, since it tries to solve a similar problem. hope that helps, Alex From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 03:30:03 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 03:39:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <478359AE.3010807@nona.net> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <478359AE.3010807@nona.net> Message-ID: <20876.80.249.57.38.1199791803.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Tue, January 8, 2008 11:08, Alex Mayrhofer wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> I've added the issue here: >> >> >> > on> > it might be a good idea to look at the proposed registry for "tel:" URI > parameters (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iptel-tel-reg-04). > Especially the "phone-context" URI parameter > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3966) Thank you. I've added that to the above page. (Also: apologies, to everyone, for the earlier, part-finished e-mail.) -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From ckstjohn at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 06:47:51 2008 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Tue Jan 8 06:47:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <8Fq142ZMfsgHFwA2@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <8ba906450801080647j38f84942obc86ee4aedb283c2@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2008 8:14 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > The distinction of properties, values, types, schema etc. are well > documented computer science terms. > Actually, in knowledge representation terms they're usually not. To get around the "what's meta" problem people generally just pick a level that seems reasonable to the problem at hand and go ahead knowing that other choices might have been equally valid. (Computer geeks can think Java Reflection or the Lisp MOP. When is a type actually data? Just don't go there :-) ) In HTML for example, the "sematic level" of the various tags varies quite a bit:

    is very generic, very specific, so denying the question isn't helpful to those trying to write a new format (or understand the logic behind existing formats) I generally agree that the discussion of meta-levels can be unproductive, but there are choices to be made. A better answer to the question about data in class attributes might be: "Yes, it's data, and there are some fairly deep questions about what is appropriate and what is not. We tried to cut through the Gordian knot by simply avoiding the deep questions. When possible, names are just stolen from existing standards (hCard). Otherwise, authors have just used intuition to make some reasonable choices. There is no hard and fast rule. Different microformats have very different sorts of "stuff" in the class attribute (just compare xoxo to hReview), the key is to make the "stuff" appropriate to the task at hand. If you want to author a new microformat, you're going to need to make some choices and experience has shown the community (and lots of research) will help you with the appropriateness of your vocabulary and its 'semantic level'. There are also guidelines on the wiki that have proven useful in other efforts. Long discussions of the what counts as meta often end badly, so don't worry about it too much. Instead, concentrate on existing practice and trust the community to help with judgement calls." > One way to > learn more about such distinctions is to pick up a book or two on computer > science and data structure and learn about them. > I don't personally mind a little heat in my technical discussions, but this is exactly the sort of remark Andy was banned for, and it's unfair to hit a person who can't hit back. -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From philip.tellis at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 11:13:56 2008 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Tue Jan 8 11:14:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> On 08/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Good point. The nearest at the moment is "type=cell", but since such > numbers usually cannot be dialled for voice calls, that's not really I don't understand this. Why can't type=cell be dialled for voice calls? From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Tue Jan 8 11:26:07 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Tue Jan 8 11:26:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 8 Jan 2008, at 19:13, Philip Tellis wrote: > On 08/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Good point. The nearest at the moment is "type=cell", but since such >> numbers usually cannot be dialled for voice calls, that's not really > > I don't understand this. Why can't type=cell be dialled for voice > calls? > I think the problem is that they can, but SMS short numbers can't. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From philip.tellis at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 11:46:13 2008 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Tue Jan 8 11:52:34 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> On 08/01/2008, Jim O'Donnell wrote: > > > I don't understand this. Why can't type=cell be dialled for voice > > calls? > > > I think the problem is that they can, but SMS short numbers can't. so should there be a way to distinguish voice enabled numbers from SMS only numbers and data only numbers? This would be similar to the difference between a telephone and FAX or modem number. They're both telephone numbers, just that one of them is connected to a telephone transceiver, while the other is connected to a FAX machine or a PC. From gl at brixlogic.com Tue Jan 8 12:07:50 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Jan 8 12:07:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> Philip Tellis wrote: > On 08/01/2008, Jim O'Donnell wrote: > >>> I don't understand this. Why can't type=cell be dialled for voice >>> calls? >>> >>> >> I think the problem is that they can, but SMS short numbers can't. >> > > so should there be a way to distinguish voice enabled numbers from SMS > only numbers and data only numbers? > > SMS support is currently implied from 'cell' TEL TYPE in implementation I know of (ex. Window Mobile / Apple iPhone). Right now, we just currently can't have a non 'cell' phone number described as supporting SMS, which is the case of short codes. Adding a TEL TYPE value 'sms' seems to be a viable possible option. It is just another "service" available @ the phone number, just like voice, fax, etc. Guillaume From gl at brixlogic.com Tue Jan 8 12:13:08 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Jan 8 12:13:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <7EYkYCgFFzgHFwxH@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> <7EYkYCgFFzgHFwxH@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <4783D954.3030607@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > >>> >>> >> In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone number >> not being a work number when both a person's formatted name and >> organization name were present? > > Today - and nearly every time I look at a contact page about someone > who does voluntary work. Andy, Can you point to an example that will help me understand your point? TIA, Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 14:39:45 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 14:41:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <4783D954.3030607@brixlogic.com> References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> <7EYkYCgFFzgHFwxH@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <4783D954.3030607@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: In message <4783D954.3030607@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >>> In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone >>>number not being a work number when both a person's formatted name >>>and organization name were present? >> >> Today - and nearly every time I look at a contact page about someone >>who does voluntary work. >Can you point to an example that will help me understand your point? -- Andy Mabbett From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Jan 8 15:03:56 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Jan 8 15:01:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/8/08 12:08 AM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message , Tantek ?elik > writes > > >>>> properties!=values. types/schema are not "just as much" data. >>> >>> You seem to be making unsubstantiated assertions and arbitrary >>> distinctions. >> >> Please stop making the assumption of lack of foundation logical flaw. > > I made no "logical flaw". You posted assertions; and made no attempt to > substantiate them. The logical flaw is the *assumption* that your statement made that there was no (or appeared to be no) foundation/substantiantion for my assertion. You can't know that, therefore the assumption is invalid. Such invalid assumptions do not contribute to debate, and are not helpful. As I said, rather than assuming a lack of substantiation, simply ask for it, as the guidelines indicate. >> http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-list#Avoid_logical_flaws >> >> > n_or_justification> > > Posting URLs of your own assertions on the wiki as though they were > evidence contributed little to the debate. Those are not my assertions, but merely documentation of a logical flaw. If you dispute that logical flaw, please indicate *why* you think that logical flaw is itself flawed, perhaps in a nested list item, on the wiki. >>> Consider: >>> >>> street- vs. extended- address >> >> sub-properties of adr property >> >>> >>> given- vs. additional- name >> >> sub-properties of n property >> >> >>> work- vs. home- tel >> >> *values* for 'type' sub-property of tel property. > > Arbitrary distinctions. Not arbitrary, but based on distinctions made in vCard, hence I cited: >> These distinctions come from RFC 2426 as well as >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-design-methodology >> Read both carefully to understand these distinctions better. > > I'm fully aware of both the source and meaning of those terms. Then I suggest re-reading RFC2426 to better understand the source of the distinctions, rather than categorizing them as "arbitrary". >> > > The examples were not theoretical, but real (though surname changed out > of courtesy to the person concerned. Please provide a URL to a public resource on the Web to substantiate the assertion that they are "real" for the purposes of microformats. >>>> Hence why microformats focus on real world examples on the web that are >>>> also *common*. >>> >>> And people *commonly* publish what are clearly and unambiguously (to >>> humans, but not, without the additional mark-up of a microformat, to >>> machines) home or work telephone numbers, without saying as much on the >>> page. >> >> Same thing. needs real world example URL. please document on hcard-issues. > > Thank you. Please document on hcard-issues. Tantek From gl at brixlogic.com Tue Jan 8 15:02:53 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Jan 8 15:02:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <4782BD3F.4000805@t-tec.com.au> <4782CF95.10307@brixlogic.com> <7EYkYCgFFzgHFwxH@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <4783D954.3030607@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <4784011D.4020308@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <4783D954.3030607@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu > writes > >>>> In that same vein, we could ask: when did you last see a phone >>>> number not being a work number when both a person's formatted name >>>> and organization name were present? >>> >>> Today - and nearly every time I look at a contact page about someone >>> who does voluntary work. > >> Can you point to an example that will help me understand your point? > > > Ok. But I still don't understand why you say that in the case of voluntary work, a single tel with an unspecified type cannot be assumed to be of type 'work' if an org is present. The vCard RFC recommends the use of "work" to indicate a telephone number associated with a place of work. The case above seems to qualify: voluntary work... is work and the place of work is WMBC and the phone number provided is clearly associated with WMBC. So it seems to me legitimate to assume that the tel provided are of type 'work' even though it is not explicitly stated in the content. I still don't get your point. Can you elaborate? TIA, Guillaume From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Jan 8 15:17:03 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Jan 8 15:14:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <8ba906450801080647j38f84942obc86ee4aedb283c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/8/08 6:47 AM, "Christopher St John" wrote: > On Jan 7, 2008 8:14 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: >> >> The distinction of properties, values, types, schema etc. are well >> documented computer science terms. >> > > Actually, in knowledge representation terms they're > usually not. To get around the "what's meta" problem > people generally just pick a level that seems reasonable > to the problem at hand and go ahead knowing that other > choices might have been equally valid. (Computer geeks > can think Java Reflection or the Lisp MOP. When is a > type actually data? Just don't go there :-) ) > > In HTML for example, the "sematic level" of the various > tags varies quite a bit:

    is very generic, > very specific, so denying the question isn't helpful to > those trying to write a new format (or understand the > logic behind existing formats) > > I generally agree that the discussion of meta-levels can > be unproductive, but there are choices to be made. A > better answer to the question about data in class > attributes might be: > > "Yes, it's data, and there are some fairly deep > questions about what is appropriate and what is not. We > tried to cut through the Gordian knot by simply avoiding > the deep questions. When possible, names are just stolen > from existing standards (hCard). Otherwise, authors have > just used intuition to make some reasonable choices. > There is no hard and fast rule. Different microformats > have very different sorts of "stuff" in the class > attribute (just compare xoxo to hReview), the key is to > make the "stuff" appropriate to the task at hand. If you > want to author a new microformat, you're going to need > to make some choices and experience has shown the > community (and lots of research) will help you with the > appropriateness of your vocabulary and its 'semantic > level'. There are also guidelines on the wiki that have > proven useful in other efforts. Long discussions of the > what counts as meta often end badly, so don't worry > about it too much. Instead, concentrate on existing > practice and trust the community to help with judgement > calls." This is a much better answer. Christopher, perhaps you could consider adding this to the FAQ in answer to to Katrina's question: "What sort of meta-data is acceptable and what others aren't?"[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/faq [1] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-January/01127 8.html >> One way to >> learn more about such distinctions is to pick up a book or two on computer >> science and data structure and learn about them. >> > > I don't personally mind a little heat in my technical > discussions, but this is exactly the sort of remark Andy > was banned for, and it's unfair to hit a person who > can't hit back. Hitting back is still hitting. It doesn't make it right. Instead, the right thing to do is to simply call it out (as you did). and... On 1/8/08 12:08 AM, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: >> One way to >> learn more about such distinctions is to pick up a book or two on computer >> science and data structure and learn about them. > > Yes; they told me that a few years before they awarded me my degree in > the subject. My bad for making the assumption that you didn't have a computer science degree (unfortunately another example of the logical flaw previously noted). > Your "snarky" comment, against your own policy, also adds little to the > debate. Though not intended as snarky, upon re-reading I can see how it could have been interpreted that way. Thus, apologies, comment retracted. Based on this feedback I will refrain from posting on microformats mailing lists and making wiki edits (other than admin duties of blocking/reverting spammers) for 24 hours. Tantek From philip.tellis at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:31:54 2008 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Tue Jan 8 16:31:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> On 08/01/2008, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Adding a TEL TYPE value 'sms' seems to be a viable possible option. It > is just another "service" available @ the phone number, just like voice, > fax, etc. so what we're looking at, is really two axes... one is the service running at the other end of a telephone number (voice, sms, fax, data), and the second is the location of this service (home, office, mobile). From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 17:01:30 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 17:03:13 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Jeremy Keith writes >> Perhaps the rule should be that the hCard is for a place if the >>"fn" is >> on *any* address ("adr") child-component [1] (e.g. "fn locality" or >>"fn >> street-address")? > >This strikes me as being pretty workable. I'm mentally kicking the >tyres and this seems like quite a robust solution. Thank you. In that case, would people agree, or object, if we: 1) removed "or place" from the "Organization Contact Info" section: 2) added, after the section "Organization Contact Info", a new section called "Place information", based on the former, thus: If the "FN" and one of "ADR" "POST-OFFICE-BOX" "EXTENDED-ADDRESS" "STREET-ADDRESS" "LOCALITY" "REGION" "POSTAL-CODE" "COUNTRY-NAME" "LABEL" are on the same element, (e.g. class="fn extended-address"), then the hCard represents a place and SHOULD be treated as such. In this case the author also MUST NOT set the "N" property, or set it (and any sub-properties) explicitly to the empty string "". Thus parsers SHOULD handle the missing "N" property, in this case by implying empty values for all the "N" sub-properties. 3) changed the "Implied "n" Optimization" rule: to: If "FN" and "ORG" are not the same (see above); and "FN" is not on the same element as "LABEL", "ADR", or one of the listed "ADR" child elements (see above also); and the value of the "FN" property is exactly two words... [I suggest that we make "above" and "above also" links, or use the respective section names as linking text.] 4) changed the "Implied "nickname" Optimization" rule: to: Similar to the implied "n" optimization, if "FN" and "ORG" are not the same; and "FN" is not on the same element as "LABEL", "ADR", or one of the listed "ADR" child elements; and the value of the "FN" property is exactly one word, and there is no explicit "N" property, then... Note the addition, in (2) - (4), of "ADR", in its own right, because: New York and: New York and Dayton , Ohio are all equally acceptable. Note also the inclusion of "LABEL", not previously included in my proposal, but logically of the same nature as "ADR", and recommended for use in place of "ADR" if the latter's required granularity is not possible, i.e. Dayton, Ohio If there are any objections, please say to which of the above points you object, and whether you have a preferred alternative, or object in principle. It is my view that items 3 and 4 are logical, and should be done, even if the first two are not adopted; since, say: New York and Boston are extremely unlikely to ever represent a person's name. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 17:33:00 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 17:34:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com>, Philip Tellis writes >On 08/01/2008, Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > >> Adding a TEL TYPE value 'sms' seems to be a viable possible option. It >> is just another "service" available @ the phone number, just like voice, >> fax, etc. > >so what we're looking at, is really two axes... one is the service >running at the other end of a telephone number (voice, sms, fax, data), >and the second is the location of this service (home, office, mobile). Perhaps, but I'd slice it three ways and add more: service: voice, sms, fax, data, textphone, freephone connection: landline, mobile (though even then landline vs. mobile can be a vague distinction; and is perhaps becoming increasingly irrelevant. Then there's VoIP...) use: personal, work So I can have, for instance, a: work-landline-fax which is different to each of my: personal-mobile-[fax+voice+sms] my: work-mobile-[fax+voice+sms] my: work-landline-voice and my: work-landline-[voice+freephone] -- Andy Mabbett From philip.tellis at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 18:26:38 2008 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Tue Jan 8 18:26:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com> On 08/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Perhaps, but I'd slice it three ways and add more: > > service: > > voice, sms, fax, data, textphone, freephone > > connection: > > landline, mobile I'm not sure I'd bother distinguishing between landline and mobile, for the same reasons that you mentioned. It's largely irrelevant. My choice of work, home, mobile was more an indication of where I'm likely to be if you reach me on one of these numbers, ie, if you know I'm at home, you're most likely to reach me on my home phone, and very unlikely to reach me on my office phone. From burton at tailrank.com Tue Jan 8 18:49:02 2008 From: burton at tailrank.com (Kevin Burton) Date: Tue Jan 8 18:49:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Initial hAtom support in Spinn3r 2.1 Message-ID: <30c6373b0801081849y4bc1b14ev3542adf168271853@mail.gmail.com> Hey guys, Thought this would be of interest: http://blog.spinn3r.com/2008/01/announcing-spin.html We implemented initial hAtom support in this updated version of Spinn3r. Updating it as the spec evolves shouldn't be a problem. This is implemented as part of our content extraction technology which is new in this release. What's really cool about this is that since we're crawling for a number of other companies this really pushes hAtom forward! Onward! PS. I sent this to the list before and it was rejected due to content type. Sending again in plain text. If this is a duplicate I apologize but I didn't see it in the archives. -- Founder/CEO Tailrank.com Location: San Francisco, CA AIM/YIM: sfburtonator Skype: burtonator Work: http://spinn3r.com and http://tailrank.com Blog: http://feedblog.org Cell: 415-637-8078 Fax: 1-415-358-419 PIN: 0092 From mdagn at spraci.com Tue Jan 8 19:26:18 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Tue Jan 8 19:48:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com><31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk><2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com><4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com><2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002101c8526f$66224ab0$116bacca@COMCEN> > > I'm not sure I'd bother distinguishing between landline and mobile, > for the same reasons that you mentioned. It's largely irrelevant. My > choice of work, home, mobile was more an indication of where I'm > likely to be if you reach me on one of these numbers, ie, if you know > I'm at home, you're most likely to reach me on my home phone, and very > unlikely to reach me on my office phone. It might be of interest to people in some places - especially when there may be differences between the costs of making a call to a landline or a mobile. eg .. here in Sydney if I'm calling a local landline number from another landline it is a cheap untimed local call rate. wheras if I am calling from a mobile it is usually cheaper to call another mobile number than a landline. ...also ... there may be a "preferred" number that people may want to be used when multiple numbers are available... (also each number might have times associated with it - when the person can be contacted on that number) From philip.tellis at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 20:16:18 2008 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Tue Jan 8 20:16:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <002101c8526f$66224ab0$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com> <002101c8526f$66224ab0$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80801082016j2ae13db8u95564224d6c16484@mail.gmail.com> On 08/01/2008, Michael MD wrote: > It might be of interest to people in some places - especially when there may > be differences between the costs of making a call to a landline or a mobile. > eg .. here in Sydney if I'm calling a local landline number from another > landline it is a cheap untimed local call rate. > wheras if I am calling from a mobile it is usually cheaper to call another > mobile number than a landline. > > ...also ... there may be a "preferred" number that people may want to be > used when multiple numbers are available... > (also each number might have times associated with it - when the person can > be contacted on that number) similarly, in India, phone-A to phone-B rates (incoming as well as outgoing) depend on where phone-A and phone-B were originally signed up for, the plan that both were signed up for, and where each of them is at the time of making the call. However, does all of this belong in the vcard? Would you, for example, put down, "preferred from 0900-1700IST, except on weekends and between the 5th and 15th of May, unless you're signed up with plan foo on provider bar" as meta info for the number? Philip From mdagn at spraci.com Tue Jan 8 21:18:30 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Tue Jan 8 21:18:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com><2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com><31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk><2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com><4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com><2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com><2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com><002101c8526f$66224ab0$116bacca@COMCEN> <2e95f9b80801082016j2ae13db8u95564224d6c16484@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004201c8527f$13129bd0$116bacca@COMCEN> > > Would you, for example, put down, "preferred from 0900-1700IST, except > on weekends and between the 5th and 15th of May, unless you're signed > up with plan foo on provider bar" as meta info for the number? > No, but people might sometimes like to know if its a mobile or a landline (and perhaps even which provider if it is relevant)...and what times a person might be reachable on a given number...to help them choose which number is best for them to call. I'm not saying that everyone would have to provide all that extra information, but some people might want to (and giving this a little thought might avoid some of those situations where people might try and cram information meant only for humans into fields that might be read by a machine causing things to break) From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 23:31:15 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jan 8 23:31:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801082331w69a8f7fah5fc48b1f251c070e@mail.gmail.com> On 09/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Jeremy > Keith writes > > >> Perhaps the rule should be that the hCard is for a place if the > >>"fn" is > >> on *any* address ("adr") child-component [1] (e.g. "fn locality" or > >>"fn > >> street-address")? > > > >This strikes me as being pretty workable. I'm mentally kicking the > >tyres and this seems like quite a robust solution. > > Thank you. > > In that case, would people agree, or object, if we: .... --- some additional time to review this would be nice. Jeremy brought this to my attention 2 days ago. Now we are asking to change the spec. More time is needed to fully look over the implications of this change. thanks, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 23:30:21 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 23:32:04 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <8ba906450801080647j38f84942obc86ee4aedb283c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message , Tantek ?elik writes >Thus, apologies, comment retracted. Thank you. >Based on this feedback I will refrain from posting on microformats >mailing lists and making wiki edits (other than admin duties of >blocking/reverting spammers) for 24 hours. Please don't do so on my account. I find such hiatuses (whether voluntary or imposed) pointless; far better for the time to be spent making constructive contributions to our work here. [I will respond to your other post later] -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 8 23:45:39 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 8 23:46:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com>, Philip Tellis writes >On 08/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> Perhaps, but I'd slice it three ways and add more: >> >> service: >> >> voice, sms, fax, data, textphone, freephone >> >> connection: >> >> landline, mobile > >I'm not sure I'd bother distinguishing between landline and mobile, for >the same reasons that you mentioned. While I'm aware that we're discussing possible changes to vcard, rather than ways of using the current hCard, I think this is a case where looking at what people actually publish (and allow for in forms) on the web; and what address-book apps allow for, would be useful (even is a revision to vCard, or changing user behaviour, ultimately causes changes in the latter) Is suspect that many people currently publish both "phone" and "mobile" numbers'; and that a good many apps have a similar binary classification. Outlook 2002 has a range of options, but these include home, office *and* mobile (with the obvious implication that the first two are land-lines). Two more things to bear in mind; some people's mobile phones support mutimedia messaging (MMS) and/or Push-to-talk (PTT), others do not; and all these distinctions may disappear, and others emerge, in the next - say - ten or twenty years. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 9 01:09:43 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 9 01:09:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo: ISO/DIS 6709 update needed Message-ID: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> The Geo Brainstorming page says, at: The Geo field in the vCard format seems to be based on ISO 6709:1983 The International Standard is being updated, ISO/DIS 6709, to allow for depths as well as heights and to include Coordinate Reference System (CRS) identification. Voting on the revised standard finishes on the 15th February 2007. Before I start researching the outcome, can anyone provide an update, please? Thank you. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From fberriman at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 01:16:19 2008 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Wed Jan 9 01:16:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Initial hAtom support in Spinn3r 2.1 In-Reply-To: <30c6373b0801081849y4bc1b14ev3542adf168271853@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801081849y4bc1b14ev3542adf168271853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 09/01/2008, Kevin Burton wrote: > Hey guys, > > Thought this would be of interest: > > http://blog.spinn3r.com/2008/01/announcing-spin.html > Hi Kevin - thanks for letting us know. That's good news. You might like to add spinn3r to the hAtom examples: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Examples_in_the_wild -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From fberriman at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 01:18:01 2008 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Wed Jan 9 01:18:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Initial hAtom support in Spinn3r 2.1 In-Reply-To: References: <30c6373b0801081849y4bc1b14ev3542adf168271853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 09/01/2008, Frances Berriman wrote: > You might like to add spinn3r to the hAtom examples: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Examples_in_the_wild > Apologies - I see you added it to the top of the list (for some reason I expected it at the bottom). Blind sometimes. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Jan 9 01:51:28 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Jan 9 01:58:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo: ISO/DIS 6709 update needed In-Reply-To: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20801090151r297085f5l229e7e08ece3b0fb@mail.gmail.com> "If you need me I'll be in the basement". Sorry, couldn't resist ;-) On 1/9/08, Andy Mabbett wrote: > The Geo Brainstorming page says, at: > > > > The Geo field in the vCard format seems to be based on > ISO 6709:1983 > > The International Standard is being updated, ISO/DIS 6709, > to allow for depths as well as heights and to include Coordinate > Reference System (CRS) identification. Voting on the revised > standard finishes on the 15th February 2007. > > Before I start researching the outcome, can anyone provide an update, please? > > Thank you. > > -- > Andy Mabbett > ** via webmail ** > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 9 02:25:13 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 9 02:25:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo: ISO/DIS 6709 update needed In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801090151r297085f5l229e7e08ece3b0fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <21e523c20801090151r297085f5l229e7e08ece3b0fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <38303.80.249.57.38.1199874313.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Wed, January 9, 2008 09:51, David Janes wrote: > "If you need me I'll be in the class="depth">basement". John Doe 2010-11-22 six feet under > Sorry, couldn't resist ;-) Likewise. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Wed Jan 9 02:28:45 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Wed Jan 9 02:28:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <8ba906450801080647j38f84942obc86ee4aedb283c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18050cf90801090228l146fb78di12b8a35bd54efe1e@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2008 8:30 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Please don't do so on my account. I find such hiatuses (whether > voluntary or imposed) pointless; far better for the time to be spent > making constructive contributions to our work here. I suspect that he realised he had gone too far and has implied a self-imposed cooling off period for himself to gain perspective on the situation. This is something that many of us can learn from, so good job that man, I say. -- Paul Wilkins From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Wed Jan 9 02:32:17 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Wed Jan 9 02:32:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo: ISO/DIS 6709 update needed In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801090151r297085f5l229e7e08ece3b0fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <21e523c20801090151r297085f5l229e7e08ece3b0fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18050cf90801090232y22923563n30b8c25eb637cc10@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2008 10:51 PM, David Janes wrote: > "If you need me I'll be in the class="depth">basement". > > Sorry, couldn't resist ;-) (WYSIWYG copy & paste) And if you need me I'll be in the attic. -- Paul Wilkins From bbtommorris at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 02:44:50 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Wed Jan 9 02:44:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Event: SemanticCamp London Feb 16-17 Message-ID: Signup is now open for SemanticCamp London which takes place on the 16th and 17th of February, 2007, at the Department of Computing at Imperial College, London. Following the success of BarCamp London 3 in November, SemanticCamp is an attempt to bring the BarCamp magic to a niche topic - the Semantic Web in it's various incarnations. Ideas, implementation, technology and vision around making the Web a giant distributed database, or something thereabouts. SemanticCamp is a free, two day participant-driven event. Put your ideas up and give a talk, or lead a discussion. It's like a conference with all the boring bits taken out. http://semanticcamp.tommorris.org/ Would love to see some fellow microformateers there! The signup form even lets you import your details from hCard or FOAF, so there's no excuse...! -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From barry.cornelius at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 9 02:58:56 2008 From: barry.cornelius at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Barry Cornelius) Date: Wed Jan 9 02:58:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] the role of the X-WR-CALNAME property of iCalendar Message-ID: We have been successfully using Brian Suda's xhtml2vcal.xsl (available from http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/) to transform some hCalendar embedded in an Atom 1.0 newsfeed to iCalendar format. It is used as part of a local application for generating newsfeeds called OXITEMS. After switching from Outlook 2003 to Outlook 2007, a colleague is reporting a problem with the iCalendar that OXITEMS is generating. It appears that if the iCalendar provides an X-WR-CALNAME property, Outlook 2007 will not import the event(s) into your main Outlook Calendar but it will create a new calendar with a name that is the value of the X-WR-CALNAME property. Currently, xhtml2vcal.xsl always generates an X-WR-CALNAME property and gives it the value of the title element of the input document (using an empty string if there is no title element in the input). We often provide web pages listing events with iCalendar buttons for each event. The aim is to make it easy for a user to import details of an event into whatever calendaring system they are using. It would be silly if the user got a new calendar every time they clicked on an iCalendar button. The OXITEMS system also has the ability to send out a message with an iCalendar attachment whenever an event item is added to a newsfeed. Again it would be silly if the recipient of this message got a new calendar created if they opened the attachment. Here's an analysis of what happens for various calendar clients. If the X-WR-CALNAME property is present, Outlook 2007 behaves as follows: (a) If you open an iCalendar file, Outlook 2007 will create a new calendar. If you open it again, it will create another new calendar (with the same name). (b) If, in Outlook 2007, you explicitly import an iCalendar file, it will ask you whether you want to create a new calendar or import the event(s) into your calendar. If you choose the later, it assumes you only have one calendar even though Outlook 2007 allows you to create as many calendars as you wish. If instead you choose "new calendar", it will create a new calendar. If you repeat the import it will create another new calendar with the same name. If the X-WR-CALNAME property is absent, Outlook 2007 will import the event(s) into your main Outlook Calendar. Google Calendar, Outlook 2003 and WebCalendar ignore the contents of the X-WR-CALNAME property if it is present. If you have more than one calendar, Google Calendar allows you to select the calendar you want to import into. With Apple iCal, you get the same behaviour no matter whether there is an X-WR-CALNAME property or not. iCal asks you whether you want to import the event(s) into a new calendar or into an existing calendar and if the latter it asks which one. This happens both when you double-click an iCalendar file and also when you explicitly import the file. I'm trying to work out what to do: (a) continue as now (always providing an X-WR-CALNAME property) making it an inconvenience for Outlook 2007 users; (b) always omit the X-WR-CALNAME property which, for Outlook 2007, would mean that all the events would go into your main calendar which may be not what you want; (c) include the X-WR-CALNAME property only if there is more than one event in the calendar. -- Barry Cornelius Computing Services, University of Oxford 13 Banbury Road, Oxford, OX2 6NN, UK barry.cornelius@oucs.ox.ac.uk Phone:01865 273267 or +441865 273267 http://www.barrycornelius.com Reception:273200 Fax:273275 From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Wed Jan 9 06:11:51 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Wed Jan 9 06:12:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Event: SemanticCamp London Feb 16-17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E0716B0-98E4-4556-9942-5F021853A92C@ben-ward.co.uk> On 9 Jan 2008, at 10:44, Tom Morris wrote: > Would love to see some fellow microformateers there! > The signup form even lets you import your details from hCard or FOAF, > so there's no excuse...! Oh lovely, although the post-parse form doesn't handle having found multiple URLs in an hCard. Perhaps a drop down list to pick one of many where multiples are found? Ben From bbtommorris at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 06:23:29 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Wed Jan 9 06:23:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Event: SemanticCamp London Feb 16-17 In-Reply-To: <8E0716B0-98E4-4556-9942-5F021853A92C@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <8E0716B0-98E4-4556-9942-5F021853A92C@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2008 2:11 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > On 9 Jan 2008, at 10:44, Tom Morris wrote: > > Would love to see some fellow microformateers there! > > The signup form even lets you import your details from hCard or FOAF, > > so there's no excuse...! > > Oh lovely, although the post-parse form doesn't handle having found > multiple URLs in an hCard. Perhaps a drop down list to pick one of > many where multiples are found? > No, it doesn't - it uses modified representative-hcard-parsing rules to try and pull out the card representing the owner of the linked resource (similarly, the FOAF import uses foaf:primaryTopic searching to find the primary profile). If there are multiple hCards on a page, it should pull the one with the url/uid matching the URL you entered in the form. It works reasonably well - I tested it with quite a few hCards - if it doesn't work, then, nothing lost. I would have implemented a selector, but, frankly, I'm lazy and this is a test. I spent most of yesterday getting the two importers working, so I'm not touching them until the signup is finished. :) See you there! -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From guillaume at lebleu.org Wed Jan 9 09:25:14 2008 From: guillaume at lebleu.org (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Wed Jan 9 09:25:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4785037A.2080608@lebleu.org> Andy Mabbett wrote: > > While I'm aware that we're discussing possible changes to vcard, > rather than ways of using the current hCard, I think this is a case > where looking at what people actually publish (and allow for in forms) > on the web; and what address-book apps allow for, would be useful > (even is a revision to vCard, or changing user behaviour, ultimately > causes changes in the latter) Andy, I started to document the address book/PIM practices in http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-suggestions#TEL_Type_Definition Not sure if that's the best place to do so in the wiki though. Guillaume From guillaume at lebleu.org Wed Jan 9 09:50:27 2008 From: guillaume at lebleu.org (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Wed Jan 9 09:50:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hcard - marking up sms short codes In-Reply-To: <2e95f9b80801082016j2ae13db8u95564224d6c16484@mail.gmail.com> References: <25956.80.249.57.38.1199785722.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <2e95f9b80801081113g69a91b9cpd7fee99d3ebde857@mail.gmail.com> <31821697-9E1C-45FB-8BA8-ED1834A8C888@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <2e95f9b80801081146u40034b7eje9bc27d5e50ec70b@mail.gmail.com> <4783D816.4040303@brixlogic.com> <2e95f9b80801081631l5828c4ffp4c3d68c500eb0ff4@mail.gmail.com> <2e95f9b80801081826x5c89145agac4498f5f261421c@mail.gmail.com> <002101c8526f$66224ab0$116bacca@COMCEN> <2e95f9b80801082016j2ae13db8u95564224d6c16484@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47850963.2040401@lebleu.org> Philip Tellis wrote: > Would you, for example, put down, "preferred from 0900-1700IST, except > on weekends and between the 5th and 15th of May, unless you're signed > up with plan foo on provider bar" as meta info for the number? > > Here is a real-life example of a similar case ("opening hours" bound to specific phone numbers, not to the org they are associated with): http://www.theaa.com/aboutaa/contact.html How would you see this content marked up? as different hCard with different FN of the same (included) ORG? or as one hCard? You can easily find other instances by searching for "Contact us" 9AM or "call me after" 7PM Anyway, I think people do publish this type of information, and we should look into how to best address this requirement. Whether they do it to maximize customer satisfaction (office hours) or to minimize communications costs is not our problem. That said, I can't resist to quote the following from one of Danah Boyd's posts, which I thought about right away when I read your example: "I'm fascinated by how U.S. teens build intricate models of which friends are available via mobile and which aren't. Teens know who is on what plan, who can be called after 7PM, who can be called after 9PM, who can receive texts, who is over their texting for the month, etc. It's part of their mental model of their social network and knowing this is a core exchange of friendship." http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/mobile/ I don't know any social networking app where people can share this type of information (ex. remaining text message for the months, unlimited WE hours, etc.) but if you know, let me know. Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 9 12:57:56 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 9 13:03:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: <21e770780801082331w69a8f7fah5fc48b1f251c070e@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801082331w69a8f7fah5fc48b1f251c070e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780801082331w69a8f7fah5fc48b1f251c070e@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 09/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message , Jeremy >> Keith writes >> >> >> Perhaps the rule should be that the hCard is for a place if the >> >>"fn" is >> >> on *any* address ("adr") child-component [1] (e.g. "fn locality" or >> >>"fn >> >> street-address")? >> > >> >This strikes me as being pretty workable. I'm mentally kicking the >> >tyres and this seems like quite a robust solution. >> >> Thank you. >> >> In that case, would people agree, or object, if we: .... > >--- some additional time to review this would be nice. Jeremy brought >this to my attention 2 days ago. The proposal was posted to the wiki and mailing list in the early hours of 31 December 2007: > Now we are asking to change the spec. >More time is needed to fully look over the implications of this >change. That's what you're being asked to do. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 9 13:03:59 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 9 13:05:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki gardening: to-do Message-ID: <$MXlqtB$aThHFwZk@pigsonthewing.org.uk> The wiki's "to-do" page was 64Kb long, so I've split off the three largest sections, for hCard, Tantek and Ben West: The latter two seemed most logical URLs to use; please move them if an alternative pattern is preferred. I've also struck-through a couple of items in individuals' sections, which had already been completed by other people. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 9 13:11:08 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 9 13:22:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Wiki gardening: keywords (=tagging) Message-ID: We can't use tags on the wiki, yet, because the installation of MediaWiki doesn't support the @rel. I have therefore drafted guidelines for using "keywords" (like tags, but non-linking), until such time as that is possible: These will be particularly useful for including synonyms. When I have time, I will create a wiki template for these keywords, which will prettify them, using CSS. -- Andy Mabbett From chris.messina at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 07:57:37 2008 From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina) Date: Thu Jan 10 07:57:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Icons of MF wiki Message-ID: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> Was thinking... I don't have a problem with PD for my text contributions, but for graphics and artwork, I feel that there should be proper credit given for derivative works (i.e. the microformats icons that Wolfgang Bartelme did). Is it possible to license artwork under a different license and keep it on the wiki (i.e. CC+)? Chris -- Chris Messina Citizen-Participant & Open Source Advocate-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412.225.1051 IM: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private From faaborg at mozilla.com Thu Jan 10 08:48:20 2008 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Thu Jan 10 08:48:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Icons of MF wiki In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33D7AD1E-ECA5-4BF4-9289-F8515EB6AA7B@mozilla.com> All of the icons coming out of mozilla are likely going to be full public domain, since CC attribution licenses are not compatible with the mozilla.org license policy. Also, we want to reduce any possible barriers to entry for using the icons for basic types of information (similar to what happened with RSS). Unfortunately it might be awhile before we begin releasing microformat icons into the public domain. In order to maintain the current ship schedule for Firefox 3, we won't be exposing microformatted content in the user interface. We will however still ship with the microformats API implemented by Mike Kaply (of Operator fame), so it will be considerably easier for Firefox extensions to experiment and innovate with microformats. The API that Mike landed for Firefox 3 also means that we will only need to worry about finishing front end changes for getting microformat support into the next release. We tend to release new versions of Firefox pretty regularly, so while I'm personally disappointed that Firefox 3 won't have native support in the interface for detecting microformats, the next release isn't too far over the horizon. -Alex On Jan 10, 2008, at 7:57 AM, Chris Messina wrote: > Was thinking... > > I don't have a problem with PD for my text contributions, but for > graphics and artwork, I feel that there should be proper credit given > for derivative works (i.e. the microformats icons that Wolfgang > Bartelme did). Is it possible to license artwork under a different > license and keep it on the wiki (i.e. CC+)? > > Chris > > -- > Chris Messina > Citizen-Participant & > Open Source Advocate-at-Large > Work: http://citizenagency.com > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog > Cell: 412.225.1051 > IM: factoryjoe > This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 09:26:15 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 09:26:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Icons of MF wiki In-Reply-To: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10885.80.249.57.38.1199985975.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Thu, January 10, 2008 15:57, Chris Messina wrote: > Was thinking... Always sensible ;-) > for > graphics and artwork, I feel that there should be proper credit given for > derivative works (i.e. the microformats icons that Wolfgang Bartelme did). > Is it possible to license artwork under a different > license and keep it on the wiki (i.e. CC+)? If an image is hosted elsewhere, and shown on the wiki by simply entering its URL, as is presently the case for all those at: is PD required? -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 09:28:18 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 09:28:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: <33D7AD1E-ECA5-4BF4-9289-F8515EB6AA7B@mozilla.com> References: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> <33D7AD1E-ECA5-4BF4-9289-F8515EB6AA7B@mozilla.com> Message-ID: <12157.80.249.57.38.1199986098.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Thu, January 10, 2008 16:48, Alex Faaborg wrote: > In order to maintain the current ship schedule for Firefox 3, > we won't be exposing microformatted content in the user interface. Much as I'm keen to have FF3, that's a shame. > we will only need to worry about finishing front end changes for getting > microformat support into the next release. By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From faaborg at mozilla.com Thu Jan 10 10:03:07 2008 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Thu Jan 10 10:03:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: <12157.80.249.57.38.1199986098.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> <33D7AD1E-ECA5-4BF4-9289-F8515EB6AA7B@mozilla.com> <12157.80.249.57.38.1199986098.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <6E735092-E9DF-43CF-AD6A-5580696FDB64@mozilla.com> > By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? The next major release (point releases are primarily used for security updates). In general we try to do a release every 12 months, but since 3 has turned into a longer cycle (starting to look like 16-17 months) and focused on a lot of backed changes, the next release may potentially be a shorter cycle and be more about front end changes. However, that plan hasn't been formalized yet. Since we are completely focused on 3 right now, we don't have an estimated schedule of exactly when we would like to ship 4.0 -Alex On Jan 10, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > On Thu, January 10, 2008 16:48, Alex Faaborg wrote: > > >> In order to maintain the current ship schedule for Firefox 3, >> we won't be exposing microformatted content in the user interface. > > Much as I'm keen to have FF3, that's a shame. > >> we will only need to worry about finishing front end changes for >> getting >> microformat support into the next release. > > By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? > > -- > Andy Mabbett > ** via webmail ** > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andr3.pt at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 10:22:32 2008 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Thu Jan 10 10:22:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: <6E735092-E9DF-43CF-AD6A-5580696FDB64@mozilla.com> References: <1bc4603e0801100757i7916c54i94f7c82e2a46edd5@mail.gmail.com> <33D7AD1E-ECA5-4BF4-9289-F8515EB6AA7B@mozilla.com> <12157.80.249.57.38.1199986098.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <6E735092-E9DF-43CF-AD6A-5580696FDB64@mozilla.com> Message-ID: I agree that it's a bit disappointing not to have microformats exposed in the UI... I guess it's more important to have a robust and easy to extend API than a fancy UI. I just wish we could have both. :( No worries. Great work, nonetheless. Also, I apologize for my possible ignorance, but will this API be accessible only to Add-ons or will any page have access to it? Cheers, Andr? Lu?s On Jan 10, 2008 6:03 PM, Alex Faaborg wrote: > > By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? > > The next major release (point releases are primarily used for security > updates). In general we try to do a release every 12 months, but > since 3 has turned into a longer cycle (starting to look like 16-17 > months) and focused on a lot of backed changes, the next release may > potentially be a shorter cycle and be more about front end changes. > However, that plan hasn't been formalized yet. Since we are > completely focused on 3 right now, we don't have an estimated schedule > of exactly when we would like to ship 4.0 > > -Alex > > > > > On Jan 10, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > > On Thu, January 10, 2008 16:48, Alex Faaborg wrote: > > > > > >> In order to maintain the current ship schedule for Firefox 3, > >> we won't be exposing microformatted content in the user interface. > > > > Much as I'm keen to have FF3, that's a shame. > > > >> we will only need to worry about finishing front end changes for > >> getting > >> microformat support into the next release. > > > > By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? > > > > -- > > Andy Mabbett > > ** via webmail ** > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 14:33:43 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 14:35:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio contributor issues Message-ID: The hAudio spec says of the contributor property: The contents of the element SHOULD include a valid hCard Microformat which suggests that : [...] is required; whereas: [...] or [...] should be acceptable; and will parse as intended. I think the above wording should be changed to: The contributor's name SHOULD also be marked up as a valid hCard Microformat Also, the "SHOULD" in that clause renders the subsequent: The contents of the element MAY be specified in plain-text. redundant. -- Andy Mabbett From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 15:14:35 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Jan 10 15:21:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801101514x47ae185cl4703292c90d91ad9@mail.gmail.com> On 09/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > If there are any objections, please say to which of the above points you > object, and whether you have a preferred alternative, or object in > principle. --- i have updated my code locally and it seems to work correctly. I think we might be taking a backwards approach in editing the spec. Instead of defining a whole new sort of rule or short-cut, what we are really just doing is creating an exception when you follow the implied-n. The implied-n is triggered when there is no N. All i did is add an additional "AND FN is not on any ADR elements (or LABEL)". So the implied-n template is not called when FN is labeling a place.I think it is simple as that. I suggest that we do NOT yet update the wiki until we get some further feedback. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 14:50:41 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 17:26:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio fn issue Message-ID: I wish to add hAudio mark-up to the existing:

  • Graham Harrison appeared in a one-off programme comparing the culling of Badgers and other species, The Cull Of The Wild
    • and I think I should do so thus:
  • Graham Harrison appeared in a one-off programme comparing the culling of Badgers and other species, The Cull Of The Wild
    • However, the first "fn" in that is "Graham Harrison", not "The Cull Of The Wild". This would apply equally if the content was a short phrase like "Kate Bush's Lionheart"; or any where the artist's name precedes the title of their work). Can anyone advise me how to overcome this? If not proof, is this not strong evidence that the class "title" rather than "fn" should be used for the title of a recorded work? -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 15:35:09 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 17:26:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio issue: position Message-ID: The recommended use of "position" in hAudio: is contrary to the good practice, semantic use of ordered lists ("OL"). The mark up on the wiki:
    1. Sanity (5:48)
    2. Highway To Hell (3:39)
    should be:
    1. Sanity (5:48)
    2. Highway To Hell (3:39)
    leaving no numerals to be marked up. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 15:06:06 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 17:35:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio rel-enclosure & linking issues Message-ID: The hAudio spec says: Full Download (Enclosure) A Full Download URI specifies from where the full version of an audio recording may be retrieved. The URI MUST point to a direct link to a file retrieval process (FTP, HTTP, BitTorrent URI, etc). * The element is identified by a URI fitting the rel-design-pattern, the rel content being enclosure. This does not allow for links to streaming files, which are not cacheable, and are thus outside the scope of rel-enclosure: relEnclosure is a simple, open, format for indicating files to cache [...] Abstract relEnclosure is one of several microformats. By adding rel="enclosure" to a hyperlink, a page indicates that the destination of that hyperlink is intended to be downloaded and cached. An example is found at: where the relevant link is below the heading "LISTEN AGAIN". Also, there appears to be no mechanism to mark up an hAudio, expressed in plain text on page A, which links to an interim page, B, which in turn links to a file download. For example, the radio shows listed on: -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 16:01:49 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 17:36:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio issue: rel-license Message-ID: The "Notes" section of the hAudio spec says: By marking up audio content with the hAudio microformat, the expectation is communicated that information about the content MAY be indexed. This has no impact on the copyright of the content itself which the publisher may explicitly specify using rel-license as specified above. However, that is the first and only reference to rel-license on the page. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 17:10:10 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 17:36:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: <21e770780801101514x47ae185cl4703292c90d91ad9@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801101514x47ae185cl4703292c90d91ad9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780801101514x47ae185cl4703292c90d91ad9@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 09/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> If there are any objections, please say to which of the above points you >> object, and whether you have a preferred alternative, or object in >> principle. > >--- i have updated my code locally and it seems to work correctly. Thank you. That's good to know, though not unexpected. >I think we might be taking a backwards approach in editing the spec. >Instead of defining a whole new sort of rule or short-cut, what we are >really just doing is creating an exception when you follow the implied- >n. The implied-n is triggered when there is no N. All i did is add an >additional "AND FN is not on any ADR elements (or LABEL)". So the >implied-n template is not called when FN is labeling a place.I think it >is simple as that. As I took pains to indicate in my proposal (items as numbered): * The spec should be updated to reflect the change you describe (item 3). * Implied-nickname is equally affected (item 4). For example, in: Birmingham "Birmingham" is not a nickname. * The current "Organization Contact Info" section: says that it us used "for a company, organization or place". This proposal would require that section to be changed (item 1). * The existence of the aforesaid "Organization Contact Info" section implies that a matching "Place information" section is equally required, not least for consistency (item 2). -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 17:57:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 17:58:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo: ISO/DIS 6709 update needed In-Reply-To: <38303.80.249.57.38.1199874313.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <21e523c20801090151r297085f5l229e7e08ece3b0fb@mail.gmail.com> <38303.80.249.57.38.1199874313.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: In message <38303.80.249.57.38.1199874313.squirrel@www.gradwell.com>, Andy Mabbett writes [future-gazing] > six feet under That should of course, be: six feet under /foo> -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 10 18:06:53 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 10 18:08:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio rel-enclosure & linking issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8bnVv5j98shHFwpG@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Andy Mabbett writes >The hAudio spec says: > > > > Full Download (Enclosure) > * The element is identified by a URI fitting the > rel-design-pattern, the rel content being enclosure. >This does not allow for links to streaming files, which are not >cacheable, and are thus outside the scope of rel-enclosure: > > > relEnclosure is one of several microformats. By adding > rel="enclosure" to a hyperlink, a page indicates that the > destination of that hyperlink is intended to be downloaded and > cached. It would also seem to be inadvisable to use rel="enclosure" for links to off-site files. Perhaps download targets should be indicated by class="download" (or some such) with an informative note about using rel="enclosure" /where appropriate/ ? -- Andy Mabbett From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Fri Jan 11 02:02:16 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Fri Jan 11 02:02:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: <6E735092-E9DF-43CF-AD6A-5580696FDB64@mozilla.com> Message-ID: On 10/1/08 18:03, "Alex Faaborg" wrote: >> By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? > > The next major release (point releases are primarily used for security > updates). In general we try to do a release every 12 months, but > since 3 has turned into a longer cycle (starting to look like 16-17 > months) and focused on a lot of backed changes, the next release may > potentially be a shorter cycle and be more about front end changes. > However, that plan hasn't been formalized yet. Since we are > completely focused on 3 right now, we don't have an estimated schedule > of exactly when we would like to ship 4.0 > > -Alex Hi Alex Sorry to be a pain but do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? > > > > On Jan 10, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> On Thu, January 10, 2008 16:48, Alex Faaborg wrote: >> >> >>> In order to maintain the current ship schedule for Firefox 3, >>> we won't be exposing microformatted content in the user interface. >> >> Much as I'm keen to have FF3, that's a shame. >> >>> we will only need to worry about finishing front end changes for >>> getting >>> microformat support into the next release. >> >> By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? >> >> -- >> Andy Mabbett >> ** via webmail ** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From faaborg at mozilla.com Fri Jan 11 02:31:36 2008 From: faaborg at mozilla.com (Alex Faaborg) Date: Fri Jan 11 02:31:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <186D6749-93DE-46B0-ADA0-80973742F307@mozilla.com> > do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the > interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? We haven't decided yet, and I would love to hear people's opinions both in favor of and against including RDFa support in a future release of Firefox. -Alex On Jan 11, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: > > > > On 10/1/08 18:03, "Alex Faaborg" wrote: > >>> By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? >> >> The next major release (point releases are primarily used for >> security >> updates). In general we try to do a release every 12 months, but >> since 3 has turned into a longer cycle (starting to look like 16-17 >> months) and focused on a lot of backed changes, the next release may >> potentially be a shorter cycle and be more about front end changes. >> However, that plan hasn't been formalized yet. Since we are >> completely focused on 3 right now, we don't have an estimated >> schedule >> of exactly when we would like to ship 4.0 >> >> -Alex > > Hi Alex > > Sorry to be a pain but do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the > interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? >> >> >> >> On Jan 10, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >>> On Thu, January 10, 2008 16:48, Alex Faaborg wrote: >>> >>> >>>> In order to maintain the current ship schedule for Firefox 3, >>>> we won't be exposing microformatted content in the user interface. >>> >>> Much as I'm keen to have FF3, that's a shame. >>> >>>> we will only need to worry about finishing front end changes for >>>> getting >>>> microformat support into the next release. >>> >>> By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? >>> >>> -- >>> Andy Mabbett >>> ** via webmail ** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microformats-discuss mailing list >>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain > personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless > specifically stated. > If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in > reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to this. > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Fri Jan 11 02:36:06 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Fri Jan 11 02:36:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: <186D6749-93DE-46B0-ADA0-80973742F307@mozilla.com> Message-ID: On 11/1/08 10:31, "Alex Faaborg" wrote: >> do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the >> interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? > > We haven't decided yet, and I would love to hear people's opinions > both in favor of and against including RDFa support in a future > release of Firefox. +10 for me and my colleagues > > -Alex > > > On Jan 11, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 10/1/08 18:03, "Alex Faaborg" wrote: >> >>>> By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? >>> >>> The next major release (point releases are primarily used for >>> security >>> updates). In general we try to do a release every 12 months, but >>> since 3 has turned into a longer cycle (starting to look like 16-17 >>> months) and focused on a lot of backed changes, the next release may >>> potentially be a shorter cycle and be more about front end changes. >>> However, that plan hasn't been formalized yet. Since we are >>> completely focused on 3 right now, we don't have an estimated >>> schedule >>> of exactly when we would like to ship 4.0 >>> >>> -Alex >> >> Hi Alex >> >> Sorry to be a pain but do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the >> interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 10, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, January 10, 2008 16:48, Alex Faaborg wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> In order to maintain the current ship schedule for Firefox 3, >>>>> we won't be exposing microformatted content in the user interface. >>>> >>>> Much as I'm keen to have FF3, that's a shame. >>>> >>>>> we will only need to worry about finishing front end changes for >>>>> getting >>>>> microformat support into the next release. >>>> >>>> By "next release", do you mean 3.0.1 (or some such) or 4.0? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Andy Mabbett >>>> ** via webmail ** >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> microformats-discuss mailing list >>>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >>>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microformats-discuss mailing list >>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ >> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain >> personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless >> specifically stated. >> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. >> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in >> reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. >> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. >> Further communication will signify your consent to this. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Fri Jan 11 07:03:06 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Fri Jan 11 07:03:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4787852A.4030707@digitalbazaar.com> Michael Smethurst wrote: > On 11/1/08 10:31, "Alex Faaborg" wrote: > >>> do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the >>> interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? >> We haven't decided yet, and I would love to hear people's opinions >> both in favor of and against including RDFa support in a future >> release of Firefox. +1 for me. +1 for our company. It would be a real shame if only one way of extracting semantics from a web page were supported in Firefox. If Firefox is serious about the semantic web, it would be nice to see support for all the methods of expressing semantics on web pages. Note the recent proposal on creating a unified representation for semantic objects (uF, RDFa, eRDF): http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2008-January/000410.html This would make it much easier for Firefox to support semantics in pages. It isn't technically difficult to support all of them, so I see no reason not to do so. -- manu From martin at weborganics.co.uk Fri Jan 11 08:37:11 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Jan 11 08:34:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio issue: position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1200069431.3565.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello Andy I have cross posted this email to microformats new as I believe hAudio is still in development and any Issues anyone may have with haudio should really be posted there. On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 23:35 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote: > The recommended use of "position" in hAudio: > > > > is contrary to the good practice, semantic use of ordered lists ("OL"). > > The mark up on the wiki: > >
    > 1. > Sanity > (5:48) >
    >
    > 2. > Highway To Hell > (3:39) >
    > > should be: > >
      >
    1. > Sanity > (5:48) >
      2. >
    2. > Highway To Hell > (3:39) >
      3. >
    > > leaving no numerals to be marked up. Position was a late addition because most of the examples we were studying used tables in the design of their web pages, we also found that XOXO or OL doesn't work in tables http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-June/000482.html so now you can do both, use an ordered list without marking up "position" and also use hAudio in tables with the ability to markup position. Thanks Martin McEvoy > From martin at weborganics.co.uk Fri Jan 11 08:46:58 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Jan 11 09:47:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio rel-enclosure & linking issues In-Reply-To: <8bnVv5j98shHFwpG@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <8bnVv5j98shHFwpG@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <1200070018.3565.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello Andy > It would also seem to be inadvisable to use rel="enclosure" for links to > off-site files. Please can you explain a little further why you have an issue with this? It seems sound enough to me :) I have found more often than not that a purchased audio track is rarely downloaded from the website you actually buy the track from. rel="encloseure" simply means that the hyperlink destination is something that can be downloaded or cached? Thanks Martin McEvoy p.s I posted this one too to microformats new ;) the same reasons as before. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Jan 11 12:20:03 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Jan 11 12:21:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: References: <186D6749-93DE-46B0-ADA0-80973742F307@mozilla.com> Message-ID: In message , Michael Smethurst writes >On 11/1/08 10:31, "Alex Faaborg" wrote: > >>> do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the >>> interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? >> >> We haven't decided yet, and I would love to hear people's opinions >> both in favor of and against including RDFa support in a future >> release of Firefox. > >+10 for me and my colleagues I have ~50,000 colleagues. Available to the highest bidder ;-) -- Andy Mabbett From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Fri Jan 11 12:51:46 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Fri Jan 11 12:51:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 (was: Icons of MF wiki) In-Reply-To: References: <186D6749-93DE-46B0-ADA0-80973742F307@mozilla.com> Message-ID: <4787D6E2.40409@digitalbazaar.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Michael > Smethurst writes > >> On 11/1/08 10:31, "Alex Faaborg" wrote: >> >>>> do you have any plans to support rdf-a in the >>>> interface? In 4.0, 5.0, 6.0? >>> >>> We haven't decided yet, and I would love to hear people's opinions >>> both in favor of and against including RDFa support in a future >>> release of Firefox. >> >> +10 for me and my colleagues > > I have ~50,000 colleagues. Available to the highest bidder ;-) Could you, perhaps, get some of them to start analyzing websites[1] for us :) -- manu [1]http://microformats.org/wiki/video-info-examples#Video_Sites_Needing_Analysis From ryan at theryanking.com Sat Jan 12 11:25:48 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Sat Jan 12 11:26:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] the role of the X-WR-CALNAME property of iCalendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65EE588A-F784-4801-ADD9-F84E75AA0AD6@theryanking.com> If it isn't already, could you please document this on http:// microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations ? thanks, ryan On Jan 9, 2008, at 2:58 AM, Barry Cornelius wrote: > We have been successfully using Brian Suda's xhtml2vcal.xsl > (available from http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/) to transform some > hCalendar embedded in an Atom 1.0 newsfeed to iCalendar format. It > is used as part of a local application for generating newsfeeds > called OXITEMS. After switching from Outlook 2003 to Outlook 2007, > a colleague is reporting a problem with the iCalendar that OXITEMS > is generating. > > It appears that if the iCalendar provides an X-WR-CALNAME property, > Outlook 2007 will not import the event(s) into your main Outlook > Calendar but it will create a new calendar with a name that is the > value of the X-WR-CALNAME property. > > Currently, xhtml2vcal.xsl always generates an X-WR-CALNAME property > and gives it the value of the title element of the input document > (using an empty string if there is no title element in the input). > > We often provide web pages listing events with iCalendar buttons > for each event. The aim is to make it easy for a user to import > details of an event into whatever calendaring system they are > using. It would be silly if the user got a new calendar every time > they clicked on an iCalendar button. The OXITEMS system also has > the ability to send out a message with an iCalendar attachment > whenever an event item is added to a newsfeed. Again it would be > silly if the recipient of this message got a new calendar created > if they opened the attachment. > > Here's an analysis of what happens for various calendar clients. > > If the X-WR-CALNAME property is present, Outlook 2007 behaves as > follows: > (a) If you open an iCalendar file, Outlook 2007 will create a new > calendar. If you open it again, it will create another new > calendar (with the same name). > (b) If, in Outlook 2007, you explicitly import an iCalendar file, > it will ask you whether you want to create a new calendar or import > the event(s) into your calendar. If you choose the later, it > assumes you only have one calendar even though Outlook 2007 allows > you to create as many calendars as you wish. If instead you choose > "new calendar", it will create a new calendar. If you repeat the > import it will create another new calendar with the same name. > > If the X-WR-CALNAME property is absent, Outlook 2007 will import > the event(s) into your main Outlook Calendar. > > Google Calendar, Outlook 2003 and WebCalendar ignore the contents > of the > X-WR-CALNAME property if it is present. If you have more than one > calendar, Google Calendar allows you to select the calendar you > want to import into. > > With Apple iCal, you get the same behaviour no matter whether there > is an X-WR-CALNAME property or not. iCal asks you whether you want > to import the event(s) into a new calendar or into an existing > calendar and if the latter it asks which one. This happens both > when you double-click an iCalendar file and also when you > explicitly import the file. > > I'm trying to work out what to do: > (a) continue as now (always providing an X-WR-CALNAME property) > making it > an inconvenience for Outlook 2007 users; > (b) always omit the X-WR-CALNAME property which, for Outlook 2007, > would > mean that all the events would go into your main calendar which > may > be not what you want; > (c) include the X-WR-CALNAME property only if there is more than one > event in the calendar. > > -- > Barry Cornelius Computing Services, University of Oxford > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford, OX2 6NN, UK > barry.cornelius@oucs.ox.ac.uk Phone:01865 273267 or +441865 273267 > http://www.barrycornelius.com Reception:273200 Fax:273275 > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From ryan at theryanking.com Sat Jan 12 11:30:08 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Sat Jan 12 11:30:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: <21e770780801101514x47ae185cl4703292c90d91ad9@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801101514x47ae185cl4703292c90d91ad9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2008, at 3:14 PM, Brian Suda wrote: > On 09/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> If there are any objections, please say to which of the above >> points you >> object, and whether you have a preferred alternative, or object in >> principle. > > --- i have updated my code locally and it seems to work correctly. Could you (or someone else?) please add some tests to the test suite for this? thanks, ryan From ryan at theryanking.com Sat Jan 12 11:31:35 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Sat Jan 12 11:31:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo: ISO/DIS 6709 update needed In-Reply-To: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <1008BB97-828A-42BB-97FA-03BD790416C8@theryanking.com> On Jan 9, 2008, at 1:09 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > The Geo Brainstorming page says, at: > > > > The Geo field in the vCard format seems to be based on > ISO 6709:1983 > > The International Standard is being updated, ISO/DIS 6709, > to allow for depths as well as heights and to include Coordinate > Reference System (CRS) identification. Voting on the revised > standard finishes on the 15th February 2007. > > Before I start researching the outcome, can anyone provide an > update, please? An update of what, exactly? the ISO procedings? -ryan From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 12 12:36:55 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 12 12:38:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Geo: ISO/DIS 6709 update needed In-Reply-To: <1008BB97-828A-42BB-97FA-03BD790416C8@theryanking.com> References: <9313.80.249.57.38.1199869783.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> <1008BB97-828A-42BB-97FA-03BD790416C8@theryanking.com> Message-ID: In message <1008BB97-828A-42BB-97FA-03BD790416C8@theryanking.com>, ryan writes >>Voting on the revised >> standard finishes on the 15th February 2007. >> >> Before I start researching the outcome, can anyone provide an update, >>please? > >An update of what, exactly? the ISO procedings? Voting on the revised standard. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 12 12:37:46 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 12 12:39:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780801101514x47ae185cl4703292c90d91ad9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message , ryan writes >On Jan 10, 2008, at 3:14 PM, Brian Suda wrote: >> On 09/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >>> If there are any objections, please say to which of the above >>>points you >>> object, and whether you have a preferred alternative, or object in >>> principle. >> >> --- i have updated my code locally and it seems to work correctly. > >Could you (or someone else?) please add some tests to the test suite >for this? I'd be glad to, if you mean: How can files be uploaded? -- Andy Mabbett From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Mon Jan 14 08:47:53 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Mon Jan 14 09:01:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard: url and tel References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: Jim O'Donnell wrote: > There's one near the bottom of http://microformats.org/wiki/faq but it > only mentions dates and times. Types don't work as abbreviations because > you can't replace the word 'shipments' with 'parcel', or 'US' with > 'dom'. And it's terrible for internationalisation too! -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 15 days, 3:59.] NetSol Cybersquatting http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/01/10/netsol-cybersquatting/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 14 09:25:20 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 14 09:25:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <23754.80.249.57.38.1200331520.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Mon, January 14, 2008 16:47, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Jim O'Donnell wrote: > > >> There's one near the bottom of http://microformats.org/wiki/faq but it >> only mentions dates and times. Types don't work as abbreviations because >> you can't replace the word 'shipments' with 'parcel', or 'US' with >> 'dom'. >> > > And it's terrible for internationalisation too! Indeed. It's another case where the "data-title-pattern" (or "title-data-pattern", if you will) would work: shipments Chez moi The more I consider that pattern, the more it seems that this is a workable (indeed, best-possible) solution, if I say so myself. I invite people to highlight any shortcomings it may have. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From jeremy at adactio.com Mon Jan 14 09:40:36 2008 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Mon Jan 14 09:40:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: <23754.80.249.57.38.1200331520.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <23754.80.249.57.38.1200331520.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: Andy wrote: > Chez moi > > The more I consider that pattern, the more it seems that this is a > workable (indeed, best-possible) solution, if I say so myself. > > I invite people to highlight any shortcomings it may have. The CLASS attribute can take multiple (space separated) values). If there were more than one value in the CLASS attribute, it would no longer be clear what the TITLE attribute is referring to: Chez moi That's just a quick example off the top of my head and one that could probably be worked out but the issue remains: the CLASS attribute needs to be able to take multiple values. The way that this allows microformats values to be intermingled with other values is one of the most appealing and flexible aspects of microformats: Jeremy Keith Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 14 10:00:46 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 14 10:00:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCard: url and tel In-Reply-To: References: <47804C38.1040101@t-tec.com.au> <09B77DB2-CAC8-436E-822A-1A737F8761E8@theryanking.com> <12F9DBC9-1DF4-4365-B9B2-50566830D885@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <23754.80.249.57.38.1200331520.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: <36537.80.249.57.38.1200333646.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Mon, January 14, 2008 17:40, Jeremy Keith wrote: > Andy wrote: > >> Chez moi >> >> >> The more I consider that pattern, the more it seems that this is a >> workable (indeed, best-possible) solution, if I say so myself. >> >> I invite people to highlight any shortcomings it may have. >> > > The CLASS attribute can take multiple (space separated) values). If > there were more than one value in the CLASS attribute, it would no longer > be clear what the TITLE attribute is referring to: > > Chez moi That's no different to the current use of ABBR: Chez moi > Jeremy > Keith So exempt URL: Chez moi type = home extended-address = home url = foorbar.htm Or specify that the title-data-pattern ONLY applies to "type", "geo", "tel", and any other (future) attributes where data, for which the machine-readable value is not human-readable (or is not in the same language), must be encoded: Chez moi type = home extended-address = Chez moi url = foorbar.htm It doesn't matter which we adopt, so long as everyone consistently uses the same rules. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From ryan at theryanking.com Mon Jan 14 13:20:22 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Mon Jan 14 13:20:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume Webinar Message-ID: I know this is sorta last minute, but I'm doing a Webinar (web- seminar) on hResume tomorrow at 10AM PST. It's hosted by the folks at HR-XML. Come and listen in, contribute or just heckle me in the chat room. :) Details on the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-01-15-hresume-webinar -ryan PS - Unfortunately its using some proprietary citrix software that you have to download. I apologize for that and will make sure to avoid such commitments in the future. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 14 13:53:34 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 14 13:55:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume Webinar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , ryan writes >I know this is sorta last minute, but I'm doing a Webinar (web- >seminar) on hResume tomorrow at 10AM PST. It's hosted by the folks at >HR-XML. I won't be able to join you, but would be interested in reading a transcript. Will such be available? You might like to mention, as an aside to your presentation, hListing and its possible use for recruitment advertising. [My particular interest stems from a project I'm working on, where I've suggested adding an hListing-based "pseudo microformat", to allow vacancies to be skimmed from one website for use in a second; after it proved cost-prohibitive to add the desired XML output to the system producing the former. If that happens, I'll share the results here in due course.] -- Andy Mabbett From ryan at theryanking.com Mon Jan 14 14:24:59 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Mon Jan 14 15:21:04 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume Webinar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , > ryan writes > >> I know this is sorta last minute, but I'm doing a Webinar (web- >> seminar) on hResume tomorrow at 10AM PST. It's hosted by the folks >> at HR-XML. > > I won't be able to join you, but would be interested in reading a > transcript. Will such be available? We're planning on having a recording. I suppose that a transcript is left as an exercise for the reader. :) > You might like to mention, as an aside to your presentation, > hListing and its possible use for recruitment advertising. Yes, I'm planning on talking about the potential of using hListing for doing job listings. > [My particular interest stems from a project I'm working on, where > I've suggested adding an hListing-based "pseudo microformat", to > allow vacancies to be skimmed from one website for use in a second; > after it proved cost-prohibitive to add the desired XML output to > the system producing the former. If that happens, I'll share the > results here in due course.] Sounds like a promising experiment. Please do share when you have results. -ryan From burton at tailrank.com Wed Jan 16 00:41:49 2008 From: burton at tailrank.com (Kevin Burton) Date: Wed Jan 16 00:41:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML Message-ID: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone done any large scale audits of XHTML in the wild to determine the percentage that parse correctly? I'm thinking about deploying one in Spinn3r but I'd rather focus on other tasks if this has already been done. I'm curious about the assumptions one could make when assuming that XHTML is well formed. Specifically, the probability that a naive non-XML parser can make while indexing the content. Kevin -- Founder/CEO Tailrank.com Location: San Francisco, CA AIM/YIM: sfburtonator Skype: burtonator Work: http://spinn3r.com and http://tailrank.com Blog: http://feedblog.org Cell: 415-637-8078 Fax: 1-415-358-419 PIN: 0092 From andr3.pt at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 05:56:29 2008 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Wed Jan 16 05:56:34 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume Webinar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hya, I was interested in folowing this webinar, so I registered for the event as soon as I heard about it. When I got there the only option to hear what Ryan was saying was to phone to a certain numbers... given that there wasn't none available for Portugal, I was unable to attend. Please take that into account in the future? So, is there a recording up, somewhere? Cheers, Andr? Lu?s On Jan 14, 2008 10:24 PM, ryan wrote: > On Jan 14, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > In message , > > ryan writes > > > >> I know this is sorta last minute, but I'm doing a Webinar (web- > >> seminar) on hResume tomorrow at 10AM PST. It's hosted by the folks > >> at HR-XML. > > > > I won't be able to join you, but would be interested in reading a > > transcript. Will such be available? > > We're planning on having a recording. I suppose that a transcript is > left as an exercise for the reader. :) > > > You might like to mention, as an aside to your presentation, > > hListing and its possible use for recruitment advertising. > > Yes, I'm planning on talking about the potential of using hListing > for doing job listings. > > > [My particular interest stems from a project I'm working on, where > > I've suggested adding an hListing-based "pseudo microformat", to > > allow vacancies to be skimmed from one website for use in a second; > > after it proved cost-prohibitive to add the desired XML output to > > the system producing the former. If that happens, I'll share the > > results here in due course.] > > Sounds like a promising experiment. Please do share when you have > results. > > -ryan > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From chucka at hr-xml.org Wed Jan 16 07:07:28 2008 From: chucka at hr-xml.org (Chuck Allen) Date: Wed Jan 16 07:07:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume Webinar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000101c85851$83007660$89016320$@org> Andr?, Sorry that we couldn't provide a convenient dial-in. I should have the recording up later today. Check http://www.hr-xml.org/blog Chuck Allen Director, HR-XML Consortium, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Andr? Lu?s Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:56 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hResume Webinar Hya, I was interested in folowing this webinar, so I registered for the event as soon as I heard about it. When I got there the only option to hear what Ryan was saying was to phone to a certain numbers... given that there wasn't none available for Portugal, I was unable to attend. Please take that into account in the future? So, is there a recording up, somewhere? Cheers, Andr? Lu?s On Jan 14, 2008 10:24 PM, ryan wrote: > On Jan 14, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > In message , > > ryan writes > > > >> I know this is sorta last minute, but I'm doing a Webinar (web- > >> seminar) on hResume tomorrow at 10AM PST. It's hosted by the folks > >> at HR-XML. > > > > I won't be able to join you, but would be interested in reading a > > transcript. Will such be available? > > We're planning on having a recording. I suppose that a transcript is > left as an exercise for the reader. :) > > > You might like to mention, as an aside to your presentation, > > hListing and its possible use for recruitment advertising. > > Yes, I'm planning on talking about the potential of using hListing > for doing job listings. > > > [My particular interest stems from a project I'm working on, where > > I've suggested adding an hListing-based "pseudo microformat", to > > allow vacancies to be skimmed from one website for use in a second; > > after it proved cost-prohibitive to add the desired XML output to > > the system producing the former. If that happens, I'll share the > > results here in due course.] > > Sounds like a promising experiment. Please do share when you have > results. > > -ryan > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From svenfuchs at artweb-design.de Wed Jan 16 13:57:30 2008 From: svenfuchs at artweb-design.de (Sven Fuchs) Date: Wed Jan 16 13:58:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Folksr is here (again) Message-ID: <44B061E5-6ADE-42FB-A639-01C746EB4D98@artweb-design.de> I introduced folksr.de as a first, highly experimental stab at an application for distributed votings using the vote-link Microformat quite some time ago to this list. # Distributed votings: folksr is here (again) ... I've finally come around to resurrect folksr from being pretty stalled. I've done a complete rewrite and changed some of the way it works to incorporate various learnings from the first, experimental version. I've tried to keep things as basic as possible for now and omitted everything that I felt is not necessary to get a simple, yet useful tool going. In a nutshell: Folksr aggregates vote-links when the target URL of a vote-link has been registered for a voting on folksr.de (i.e. it is not required to link to folksr.de to get a vote in). There are two types of votings (called 'opinions' and 'polls'). Folksr relies solely on OpenID for sign-in. # How can I get you involved? I'd highly appreciate your feedback, suggestions, criticism, support ... and of course ... participation and help. I'd particularly like to ask you folks for suggestions and help to get some initial "real" votings and usage going. What could possibly be done to motivate you folks to try folksr and publish a vote? What topics would be interesting enough? What else? # What's next? Aside from real usage which I think is really the most important thing for folksr to evolve now, the next important thing might be to further work on the presentation and interface design. I feel folksr is way to text-laden and doesn't communicate its own purpose very well. I will continue to try to improve that. Suggestions are very welcome. Unfortunately, as a programmer, I am pretty much an all-fingers-thumbs moron when it comes to logos, graphics and stuff like that. So I also very much appreciate every single bit of help here. Also I plan to add the following features in the near future: - plugins for some blog engines for pinging folksr about new votes when published (Chris Messina suggested the term "voteback" which I think is a perfect match, thanks Chris!) - a timemachinesque history to review past states of votings and charts to visualize a voting's history (initially suggested by Brian Suda) - tagging for votings (also suggested by Brian Suda) # Some links What is Folksr? http://folksr.de/about How folksr works http://folksr.de/votelinks FAQ http://folksr.de/faq Announcement on my blog (somewhat extended version of this mail) http://www.artweb-design.de/2008/1/16/folksr-is-here-again-distributed-votings-using-microformats -- sven fuchs svenfuchs@artweb-design.de artweb design http://www.artweb-design.de gr?nberger 65 + 49 (0) 30 - 47 98 69 96 (phone) d-10245 berlin + 49 (0) 171 - 35 20 38 4 (mobile) From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Jan 16 15:04:38 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Wed Jan 16 15:04:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2008, at 12:41 AM, Kevin Burton wrote: > Has anyone done any large scale audits of XHTML in the wild to > determine the percentage that parse correctly? Yes, Ian Hickson at Google did a survey of about 1B pages and found that over 90% had *well-formedness* errors. I can't find a reference off hand, but it maybe buried somewhere in [#webstats]. > I'm thinking about deploying one in Spinn3r but I'd rather focus on > other tasks if this has already been done. I'd suggest working on other tasks. :) > I'm curious about the assumptions one could make when assuming that > XHTML is well formed. You know what they say about assumptions. > Specifically, the probability that a naive non-XML parser can make > while indexing the content. I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'd reccomend against using an XML parser against web content and instead use something like the HTML5 parsing algorithm [#html5-parsing]. -ryan [webstats]: http://code.google.com/webstats/ [html5-parsing]: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parsing From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Jan 16 15:06:19 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Wed Jan 16 15:06:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume Webinar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2008, at 5:56 AM, Andr? Lu?s wrote: > Hya, > > I was interested in folowing this webinar, so I registered for the > event as soon as I heard about it. When I got there the only option to > hear what Ryan was saying was to phone to a certain numbers... given > that there wasn't none available for Portugal, I was unable to attend. > Please take that into account in the future? Thanks for the feedback. I will take that into account and will personally avoid doing events that rely on such restrictive technology. -ryan From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 16 15:57:36 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 16 15:59:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Implied "ADR" Message-ID: Given the usefulness of hCard's "implied n" and "implied organization-name" optimisations, could we have a parallel "implied "ADR" ? It could work in one of two ways: * Inside a "vcard" element, where no ADR is present, any *single* child-of-ADR is assumed to have an implied "ADR" around it. or: * Inside a "vcard" element, where no ADR is present, *all* child-of-ADR elements are assumed to be within a single "ADR" [and should be concatenated per Brian Suda's recent proposal, if the latter is adopted] such that, in either case: John Doe lives in Birmingham ipsum results in: fn = John Doe adr locality = Birmingham and in the second case: lorem John Doe lives in Birmingham , England ipsum results in: fn = John Doe adr locality = Birmingham country-name = England Thereby also reducing the amount of mark up need to convey a single place-name from three levels of nesting: Birmingham to two: Birmingham which neatly equates to the two levels needed to convey a person: John Doe or organisation: Acme "ADR" would still be available where a vCard contains more than one address. -- Andy Mabbett From burton at tailrank.com Wed Jan 16 17:44:28 2008 From: burton at tailrank.com (Kevin Burton) Date: Wed Jan 16 17:44:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <30c6373b0801161744pd57033bw3db2a39b72953778@mail.gmail.com> > > Specifically, the probability that a naive non-XML parser can make > > while indexing the content. > > I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'd reccomend against using an > XML parser against web content and instead use something like the > HTML5 parsing algorithm [#html5-parsing]. Yes... I'm just trying to avoid using a full HTML parser (DOM or not) to avoid garbage generation and processor overhead. However, I think I'm losing that battle. Kevin -- Founder/CEO Tailrank.com Location: San Francisco, CA AIM/YIM: sfburtonator Skype: burtonator Work: http://spinn3r.com and http://tailrank.com Blog: http://feedblog.org Cell: 415-637-8078 Fax: 1-415-358-419 PIN: 0092 From derrick at pallas.us Wed Jan 16 19:31:42 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Wed Jan 16 19:33:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <30c6373b0801161744pd57033bw3db2a39b72953778@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <30c6373b0801161744pd57033bw3db2a39b72953778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <478ECC1E.6090600@pallas.us> Kevin Burton wrote: >> I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'd reccomend against using an >> XML parser against web content and instead use something like the >> HTML5 parsing algorithm [#html5-parsing]. >> > > Yes... I'm just trying to avoid using a full HTML parser (DOM or not) > to avoid garbage generation and processor overhead. > I use a streaming (SAX-like) HTML5 parser every day; because it's defined in terms of the underlying state-machine, it's actually quite a bit faster than what I had been using. Furthermore, many edge cases that might otherwise have gone unnoticed are dealt with cleanly. There a bigger problems that you'll face if you're indexing content, e.g. encoding issues. Tokenizing HTML shouldn't be one of them. ~Derrick From nick at nickfitz.co.uk Thu Jan 17 02:22:06 2008 From: nick at nickfitz.co.uk (Nick Fitzsimons) Date: Thu Jan 17 02:22:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> On Wed, January 16, 2008 11:04 pm, ryan wrote: > On Jan 16, 2008, at 12:41 AM, Kevin Burton wrote: > >> Has anyone done any large scale audits of XHTML in the wild to >> determine the percentage that parse correctly? > > Yes, Ian Hickson at Google did a survey of about 1B pages and found > that over 90% had *well-formedness* errors. I can't find a reference > off hand, but it maybe buried somewhere in [#webstats]. > Ian Hickson's study at links to studies by Marko Karppinen (2002) and Evan Goer (2003) both of which suggest that anyone expecting to find much well-formed XHTML on the web is doomed to disappointment. I can't imagine that things have got any better since :-( HTH, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ From karl at w3.org Thu Jan 17 03:16:19 2008 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Thu Jan 17 03:16:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> Message-ID: <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> Le 17 janv. 2008 ? 19:22, Nick Fitzsimons a ?crit : > I can't imagine that things have got any better since :-( to really evaluate this, there are two parameters to take into account. nb of xhtml pages ----------------- [now] nb of total pages but in my humble opinion, more interesting would be to have this ratio for each year with *only the new pages* created during the year. Unfortunately because there is no uniform way to sign the date of pages, and because HTTP is even a worse shape than HTML, it is almost impossible to evaluate. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 17 04:15:32 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 17 04:56:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] [Fwd: [mySociety:public] Local mashup event tonight in London] Message-ID: <22822.80.249.57.38.1200572132.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> FYI. Apologies for the short notice, but I have only just receivied it myself: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [mySociety:public] Local mashup event tonight in London From: "Tom Steinberg" Date: Thu, January 17, 2008 11:49 To: "mySociety:Public" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- As you are engaged with the digital media space, Library House is pleased to recommend the following mashup* Event, complimenting our own Essential Mediatech which took place in November. mashup* Event ? Theme 'Local' ? 17th January, London The mashup* team invites you to join in our next lively debate and networking event being held next week! Theme: Local - local search, local directories, local content, local services Speakers, panelists & contributors include: 118.com Europe (The Number) - Nik Hole, Head Northcliffe Media Digital - Robert Hardie, Content Strategy Director Qype - Frederic Court, on Board of Qype and Partner at Advent Venture Partners UpMyStreet.com - Stefan Magdalinski, Founder and ex-CTO WeLoveLocal.com - Max Jennings, co-Founder With further audience participation from the likes of TouchLocal, KentTV.com, TrustedPlaces, Tipped and more. So what are the issues around 'Local'? Do you have to be a dominating aggregator or online directory to make money from the long tail of local? How are the big incumbents taking advantage of local and where do they see it going? Should the big companies do local sites ? or how do they 'localise'? Can local advertising-driven services make money? Is local search great for local advertisers, or will they still lose out to the national guys who offer a product/service in every local area? Isn't local search only effective if local businesses are online? Or will they just rely on 'aggregators' such as Toptable, Trustedplaces? Online directories ? can they/should they look to add more local value? Registration For further details and registration please visit http://www.mashupevent.com Location (kindly supported by) Simmons and Simmons, CityPoint, One Ropemaker Street, London, EC2Y 9SS Programme 18h00 - Registration (tea/coffee & biscuits) 18h30 - Speakers/Panel 19h00 - Panel/Q&A 20h10 - Networking & Demos We look forward to see you there! Tony Fish, Simon Grice, Julia Eilon The mashup* Team (team@mashupevent.com) From derrick at pallas.us Thu Jan 17 08:23:50 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Thu Jan 17 08:23:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> Message-ID: <478F8116.9@pallas.us> Karl Dubost wrote: > > to really evaluate this, there are two parameters to take into account. > > nb of xhtml pages > ----------------- [now] > nb of total pages > I can probably tell you both of those numbers for the last couple of months. Knowing how many pages are malformed might take a bit longer. > but in my humble opinion, more interesting would be to have this ratio > for each year with *only the new pages* created during the year. > Unfortunately because there is no uniform way to sign the date of > pages, and because HTTP is even a worse shape than HTML, it is almost > impossible to evaluate. Not so. The Internet Archive knows the first time they've seen an URL, over the past ten years; they can also tell you when the content has significantly changed. Obviously, there is a bias towards pages (and sites) with higher traffic, but that seems reasonable if you're evaluating standard practices. ~ Derrick Pallas From foolistbar at googlemail.com Thu Jan 17 07:08:06 2008 From: foolistbar at googlemail.com (Geoffrey Sneddon) Date: Thu Jan 17 09:01:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <30c6373b0801161744pd57033bw3db2a39b72953778@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <30c6373b0801161744pd57033bw3db2a39b72953778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D7ED2FF-358A-4E44-83C1-85920786AC3C@googlemail.com> On 17 Jan 2008, at 01:44, Kevin Burton wrote: >>> Specifically, the probability that a naive non-XML parser can make >>> while indexing the content. >> >> I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'd reccomend against using an >> XML parser against web content and instead use something like the >> HTML5 parsing algorithm [#html5-parsing]. > > Yes... I'm just trying to avoid using a full HTML parser (DOM or not) > to avoid garbage generation and processor overhead. > > However, I think I'm losing that battle. Once you start dealing with the joy of DOCTYPEs and the like, it becomes rather questionable whether XML parsers really are much simpler than HTML ones. -- Geoffrey Sneddon From robertc at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 10:40:48 2008 From: robertc at gmail.com (Rob Crowther) Date: Thu Jan 17 10:40:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <478F8116.9@pallas.us> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> <478F8116.9@pallas.us> Message-ID: <3ce2ebd20801171040h55c1ca68r1edaff1b9256de17@mail.gmail.com> On 17/01/2008, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Not so. The Internet Archive knows the first time they've seen an URL, > over the past ten years; they can also tell you when the content has > significantly changed. But can it tell you whether it's a new page or an old page at a new address? Rob From burton at tailrank.com Thu Jan 17 16:03:03 2008 From: burton at tailrank.com (Kevin Burton) Date: Thu Jan 17 16:03:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> Message-ID: <30c6373b0801171603h6f72b857p748e40c4f4ee9cc0@mail.gmail.com> > but in my humble opinion, more interesting would be to have this ratio > for each year with *only the new pages* created during the year. > Unfortunately because there is no uniform way to sign the date of > pages, and because HTTP is even a worse shape than HTML, it is almost > impossible to evaluate. On could perform such an audit with hAtom published values. Either that or use the RSS timestamp or timestamp in the URL. This would suffer from sampling bias though because most blog hosts at least PRETEND to care about standards. Thought it would still be interesting to compute the stats. Kevin -- Founder/CEO Tailrank.com Location: San Francisco, CA AIM/YIM: sfburtonator Skype: burtonator Work: http://spinn3r.com and http://tailrank.com Blog: http://feedblog.org Cell: 415-637-8078 Fax: 1-415-358-419 PIN: 0092 From burton at tailrank.com Thu Jan 17 16:05:25 2008 From: burton at tailrank.com (Kevin Burton) Date: Thu Jan 17 16:12:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <478F8116.9@pallas.us> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> <478F8116.9@pallas.us> Message-ID: <30c6373b0801171605n4d67a5edg209e1714c2643f3b@mail.gmail.com> > Not so. The Internet Archive knows the first time they've seen an URL, > over the past ten years; they can also tell you when the content has > significantly changed. Obviously, there is a bias towards pages (and > sites) with higher traffic, but that seems reasonable if you're > evaluating standard practices. ~ Derrick Pallas Yes... but it would suffer from crawler priority bias. If it was a low ranked page it might take a few month to get around to crawling it. Spinn3r would have better data here because we're real time.... Observing the URL and hAtom timestamp as I mentioned before would be nice but would suffer from bias again. Kevin -- Founder/CEO Tailrank.com Location: San Francisco, CA AIM/YIM: sfburtonator Skype: burtonator Work: http://spinn3r.com and http://tailrank.com Blog: http://feedblog.org Cell: 415-637-8078 Fax: 1-415-358-419 PIN: 0092 From karl at w3.org Thu Jan 17 20:29:08 2008 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Thu Jan 17 22:26:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <30c6373b0801171603h6f72b857p748e40c4f4ee9cc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> <30c6373b0801171603h6f72b857p748e40c4f4ee9cc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Le 18 janv. 2008 ? 09:03, Kevin Burton a ?crit : > On could perform such an audit with hAtom published values. Either > that or use the RSS timestamp or timestamp in the URL. hmm maybe an intermediate possibility, Timestamp of domain creation. whois microformats.org Created On:26-Jan-2005 04:13:04 UTC Last Updated On:02-Nov-2007 05:19:18 UTC Expiration Date:26-Jan-2008 04:13:04 UTC Often (not always) Web sites use a common publishing system for the whole site. Domains creation then come with a publishing system which generates a kind of HTML which "should" be the same for all URLs of this domain. A lot of bias too, but just another way to constraint the data set. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From kevinmarks at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 00:06:35 2008 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Fri Jan 18 00:06:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <30c6373b0801171605n4d67a5edg209e1714c2643f3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> <478F8116.9@pallas.us> <30c6373b0801171605n4d67a5edg209e1714c2643f3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160801180006x7866e66bib1a9f38dfed13339@mail.gmail.com> What I found with the technorati crawler was that the atom timestamps were mroe reliabel than RSS, as RSS timezones were underspecified. Talking of hAtom, here's a tool that uses it: http://googlenotebookblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/permalinks-up-and-hatom.html Niall told em last night that he's submitted a patch to MT 4.1 that will make it output hAtom too. On Jan 17, 2008 4:05 PM, Kevin Burton wrote: > > > Not so. The Internet Archive knows the first time they've seen an URL, > > over the past ten years; they can also tell you when the content has > > significantly changed. Obviously, there is a bias towards pages (and > > sites) with higher traffic, but that seems reasonable if you're > > evaluating standard practices. ~ Derrick Pallas > > Yes... but it would suffer from crawler priority bias. > > If it was a low ranked page it might take a few month to get around to > crawling it. > > Spinn3r would have better data here because we're real time.... > Observing the URL and hAtom timestamp as I mentioned before would be > nice but would suffer from bias again. From rlaniger at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 06:52:37 2008 From: rlaniger at gmail.com (Rob) Date: Fri Jan 18 06:52:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume XSL template Message-ID: <5000ea230801180652n2122f04et2cb42d990c608149@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I'm quite new to microformats and try to transform a hResume enabled page to RDF. I guess that XSLT is the be way to do that but I'm not quite sure.. (?) Anyway I did not find any XSLT stylesheet to transform hResume enabled pages (according to http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume, http://esw.w3.org/topic/CustomRdfDialects and Yahoo) and was hoping someone could point me something to start with (I doesn't have to be specific to RDF, but just a basic template of how to select hResume's fields). Thanks a lot. Cheers Rob From andr3.pt at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 07:19:08 2008 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Fri Jan 18 07:19:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume XSL template In-Reply-To: <5000ea230801180652n2122f04et2cb42d990c608149@mail.gmail.com> References: <5000ea230801180652n2122f04et2cb42d990c608149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Bear in mind that before using an XSLT file on a document, you first need to make sure it's valid XML document. So you might need to use Tidy to convert HTML pages to XHTML. hKit does this with a proxy... (for php5) http://code.google.com/p/hkit/ as for on xsl for hresume, I'm not aware of any, sorry. Cheers, Andr? Lu?s On Jan 18, 2008 2:52 PM, Rob wrote: > Hello, > > I'm quite new to microformats and try to transform a hResume enabled > page to RDF. > I guess that XSLT is the be way to do that but I'm not quite sure.. (?) > > Anyway I did not find any XSLT stylesheet to transform hResume enabled > pages (according to http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume, > http://esw.w3.org/topic/CustomRdfDialects and Yahoo) and was hoping > someone could point me something to start with (I doesn't have to be > specific to RDF, but just a basic template of how to select hResume's > fields). > > Thanks a lot. > > Cheers > > Rob > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From derrick at pallas.us Fri Jan 18 08:22:10 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Fri Jan 18 08:22:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <3ce2ebd20801171040h55c1ca68r1edaff1b9256de17@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> <478F8116.9@pallas.us> <3ce2ebd20801171040h55c1ca68r1edaff1b9256de17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4790D232.2060703@pallas.us> Rob Crowther wrote: > On 17/01/2008, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > >> Not so. The Internet Archive knows the first time they've seen an URL, >> over the past ten years; they can also tell you when the content has >> significantly changed. >> > > But can it tell you whether it's a new page or an old page at a new address? > As far as I know, not through their web interface. ~Derrick From flafortune at praizedmedia.com Fri Jan 18 08:31:19 2008 From: flafortune at praizedmedia.com (flafortune) Date: Fri Jan 18 08:31:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hReview: Single Reviewable, Single Rating, Multiple Reviewers Message-ID: I have a situation that I can't seem to find a solution for concerning hReviews: I have one item to review with one overall rating: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------

    The reviewable item

    (...)
    1
    (...)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- But, I have multiple reviewers (in form of comments) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------
    • Joe Bob (April 18, 2007)
      Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- Now, without repeating the reviewed item for each review (redundancy is the ennemy), how do I go about implementing this concept? In short: - A single reviewable item - A single rating (a server-side calculated average) - Comments: The numeric rating results are derived from a completely separate process they have nothing to do with the comments, but I think the comments are definitely a form of review I've seen that I could use the include pattern, but there's not much support for this by current plugins and I'm with the crowd that says "empty anchors are not semantic, and redundancy sucks" Any thoughts would be appreciated on this, thank you all. ________________________ flafortune@praizedmedia.com From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Jan 18 08:50:16 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Jan 18 08:50:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hReview: Single Reviewable, Single Rating, Multiple Reviewers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8811.80.249.57.38.1200675016.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Fri, January 18, 2008 16:31, flafortune wrote: > I have one item to review with one overall rating: > But, I have multiple reviewers (in form of comments) > Now, without repeating the reviewed item for each review (redundancy > is the ennemy), how do I go about implementing this concept? Use the include pattern (; URL quoted from memory). -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 09:25:53 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Jan 18 09:25:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hResume XSL template In-Reply-To: <5000ea230801180652n2122f04et2cb42d990c608149@mail.gmail.com> References: <5000ea230801180652n2122f04et2cb42d990c608149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780801180925r6186d2f2n2a3e93e2e60ec320@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/18, Rob : > I'm quite new to microformats and try to transform a hResume enabled > page to RDF. > I guess that XSLT is the be way to do that but I'm not quite sure.. (?) > Anyway I did not find any XSLT stylesheet to transform hResume enabled > pages. --- there are a few implementations of XSL for hResume to various formats. This is for hResume to PDF http://hg.microformats.org/x2v?mf=b318a521cff0;path=/hresume/;style=gitweb There is an RDF version somewhere, i can't seem to find the link at the moment This is hResume to Resume XML http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hresume/ if you have questions feel free to contact me or this list. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Fri Jan 18 12:31:00 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Fri Jan 18 12:31:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Largest Deployment of Microformats on one site? Message-ID: <9657DDE1-3F2E-4603-802D-A0C118694FFE@ben-ward.co.uk> For reasons which will be revealed next week (yes, I'm a tease, sorry), I'm interested to know what the largest deployment of any microformat is on a single site, in terms of numbers of instances of microformats. Does anybody know? Ben From ryan at theryanking.com Fri Jan 18 13:11:56 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Fri Jan 18 13:18:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Largest Deployment of Microformats on one site? In-Reply-To: <9657DDE1-3F2E-4603-802D-A0C118694FFE@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <9657DDE1-3F2E-4603-802D-A0C118694FFE@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2008, at 12:31 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > For reasons which will be revealed next week (yes, I'm a tease, > sorry), I'm interested to know what the largest deployment of any > microformat is on a single site, in terms of numbers of instances > of microformats. I'm guessing its local.yahoo.com. I think its in the 10s of millions. -ryan From kevinmarks at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 16:10:33 2008 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Fri Jan 18 16:10:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Largest Deployment of Microformats on one site? In-Reply-To: References: <9657DDE1-3F2E-4603-802D-A0C118694FFE@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <73766b160801181610v55e8a917u40e24158dfd3ea0e@mail.gmail.com> maps.google.com has a lot as well, but they're only in response to searches. I bet eventful.com have a lot too. On Jan 18, 2008 1:11 PM, ryan wrote: > On Jan 18, 2008, at 12:31 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > > > For reasons which will be revealed next week (yes, I'm a tease, > > sorry), I'm interested to know what the largest deployment of any > > microformat is on a single site, in terms of numbers of instances > > of microformats. > > I'm guessing its local.yahoo.com. I think its in the 10s of millions. > > -ryan > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From burton at tailrank.com Fri Jan 18 23:07:56 2008 From: burton at tailrank.com (Kevin Burton) Date: Fri Jan 18 23:08:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML In-Reply-To: <73766b160801180006x7866e66bib1a9f38dfed13339@mail.gmail.com> References: <30c6373b0801160041x1589f091j7f9fd2f6ad37b531@mail.gmail.com> <64908.193.195.164.58.1200565326.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> <6F4632A7-8CF4-47B0-B339-0D74DC84155C@w3.org> <478F8116.9@pallas.us> <30c6373b0801171605n4d67a5edg209e1714c2643f3b@mail.gmail.com> <73766b160801180006x7866e66bib1a9f38dfed13339@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <30c6373b0801182307u35887649gbb005b091d65f988@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 18, 2008 12:06 AM, Kevin Marks wrote: > What I found with the technorati crawler was that the atom timestamps > were mroe reliabel than RSS, as RSS timezones were underspecified. > > Talking of hAtom, here's a tool that uses it: > > http://googlenotebookblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/permalinks-up-and-hatom.html I'm actually doing this right now. There's a lot of RSS and Atom that uses incorrect date/time. For example, the Six Apart update stream uses ISO 8601 atom:published without a timezone. I was able to figure out that they were using Z but only after inspection. Won't someone PLEASE think of the robots! :) Kevin -- Founder/CEO Tailrank.com Location: San Francisco, CA AIM/YIM: sfburtonator Skype: burtonator Work: http://spinn3r.com and http://tailrank.com Blog: http://feedblog.org Cell: 415-637-8078 Fax: 1-415-358-419 PIN: 0092 From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 19 03:48:38 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 19 03:50:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Largest Deployment of Microformats on one site? In-Reply-To: References: <9657DDE1-3F2E-4603-802D-A0C118694FFE@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: In message , ryan writes >On Jan 18, 2008, at 12:31 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > >> For reasons which will be revealed next week (yes, I'm a tease, >>sorry), I'm interested to know what the largest deployment of any >>microformat is on a single site, in terms of numbers of instances of >>microformats. > >I'm guessing its local.yahoo.com. I think its in the 10s of millions. Wikipedia may not have that many, but it does have a vast number, see: and (noting sub-categories also): A few are broken, because people who don't know what they're doing have been meddling (welcome to Wikipedia!) with the relevant templates (for coordinates), and because planned jobs to automate the conversion of "prose" dates to templates using ISO formats (for album release dates, aircraft accidents, space launches, etc., all marked up with hCalendar, for example) have not been completed. Here's an example of one that is done: and here's one showing the relevant edit: Again, it is unfortunate that some people, perhaps without realising what they're doing, change such templates back to prose content. Most WP microformats, though, are correct, and WP has a good combination of high numbers and *different* types of usage (hCard on biographies and articles about bands and companies, geo or hCard for places, the aforesaid hCalendars and so on). It even uses the draft "Species" microformat for every article with a taxonomic info panel, or "Taxobox": Also don't forget that many non-English versions of Wikipedia also use microformats; as do other MediaWiki Foundation projects like WikiSpecies and WikiCommons, which uses Geo: example: Google, mentioned elsewhere, may have lots of hCards, but most are badly broken: as they've been aware since last August: (aka: ) -- Andy Mabbett From m at klml.de Sat Jan 19 14:12:35 2008 From: m at klml.de (Klaus Mueller) Date: Sat Jan 19 14:12:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Largest Deployment of Microformats on one site? In-Reply-To: References: <9657DDE1-3F2E-4603-802D-A0C118694FFE@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <479275D3.107@klml.de> Hi folks, > Wikipedia may not have that many, but it does have a vast number, see: > > > great idea, Wikipedia has so many structured data;) I also tried to use mf in an other wiki like the munichwiki: http://www.monacomedia.de/muenchenwiki/index.php/M%C3%BCnchen_Wiki:Mikroformat greetz klml From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 19 15:39:16 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 19 16:10:42 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats on Wikipedia (was: Largest Deployment of Microformats on one site?) In-Reply-To: <479275D3.107@klml.de> References: <9657DDE1-3F2E-4603-802D-A0C118694FFE@ben-ward.co.uk> <479275D3.107@klml.de> Message-ID: <4Mkka5ukookHFwAW@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <479275D3.107@klml.de>, Klaus Mueller writes > >> Wikipedia may not have that many, but it does have a vast number, see: >> >> >> > >great idea, Wikipedia has so many structured data To an extent, although some is unstructured, and there are tensions between adding granularity and facilitating ease of editing for novices. There are also some aspects of MediaWiki (such as the inability to add CLASSes or RELs to links) which make adding microformats difficult, as we've found ion the microformats wiki itself. There's more about this at: along with some patches to fix them (not yet, so far as I know, implemented on the microformats wiki). -- Andy Mabbett From brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 07:41:56 2008 From: brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com (Bruno Miguel) Date: Sun Jan 20 07:42:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation Message-ID: Hello. I recently decided to implement hCard in my blog. But I have some questions. This is my implementation: With Operator extension it works ok (that is, when the extension works how it should), but with the following validator it doesn't: http://junk.ideias3.com/hCard/?url=http://www.conversasdobruno.webtuga.net/ In the validator, the address appears as a # and the xmpp url appears as part of my website url. I'm, most likely, doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out. Can anyone help me with this? From ryan at theryanking.com Sun Jan 20 11:09:38 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Sun Jan 20 11:09:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> On Jan 20, 2008, at 7:41 AM, Bruno Miguel wrote: > Hello. > I recently decided to implement hCard in my blog. But I have some > questions. > > This is my implementation: > > > With Operator extension it works ok (that is, when the extension > works how it should), but with the following validator it doesn't: > http://junk.ideias3.com/hCard/?url=http:// > www.conversasdobruno.webtuga.net/ > > In the validator, the address appears as a # and the xmpp url > appears as part of my website url. > I'm, most likely, doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out. > Can anyone help me with this? There appear to be bugs in that service. Your markup is good, other than the style="display:none". :) -ryan From brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 11:54:05 2008 From: brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com (Bruno Miguel) Date: Sun Jan 20 11:54:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> Message-ID: Cool. :) The style="display:none" is there because I'm a bit of a privacy maniac. It's the best way I know to give some kind of protection to my email addresses. If you know a better one, please share it with me, so I can make the addresses public. One more thing, is there a working validator? Thanks for the help :) On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, ryan wrote: > On Jan 20, 2008, at 7:41 AM, Bruno Miguel wrote: >> Hello. >> I recently decided to implement hCard in my blog. But I have some >> questions. >> >> This is my implementation: >> >> >> With Operator extension it works ok (that is, when the extension >> works how it should), but with the following validator it doesn't: >> http://junk.ideias3.com/hCard/?url=http:// >> www.conversasdobruno.webtuga.net/ >> >> In the validator, the address appears as a # and the xmpp url >> appears as part of my website url. >> I'm, most likely, doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out. >> Can anyone help me with this? > > There appear to be bugs in that service. Your markup is good, other > than the style="display:none". :) > > -ryan > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From philip.tellis at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 12:07:51 2008 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Sun Jan 20 12:07:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> On 20/01/2008, Bruno Miguel wrote: > Cool. :) > > The style="display:none" is there because I'm a bit of a privacy maniac. > It's the best way I know to give some kind of protection to my email > addresses. If you know a better one, please share it with me, so I can > make the addresses public. display:none will only hide your email address from non-technical human visitors. Bots - which is what you really want to protect against - will still see your address in the page source. From brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 12:23:29 2008 From: brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com (Bruno Miguel) Date: Sun Jan 20 12:23:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I know. But, by reducing the number of people who check my email, I reduce the hate mails. One more thing: to add a msn messenger link, I should use texttexttext? On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Philip Tellis wrote: > On 20/01/2008, Bruno Miguel wrote: >> Cool. :) >> >> The style="display:none" is there because I'm a bit of a privacy maniac. >> It's the best way I know to give some kind of protection to my email >> addresses. If you know a better one, please share it with me, so I can >> make the addresses public. > > > display:none will only hide your email address from non-technical > human visitors. Bots - which is what you really want to protect > against - will still see your address in the page source. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Sun Jan 20 13:17:48 2008 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Sun Jan 20 13:17:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <519fa62f0801201317w51bdba48oe99ad8e023426844@mail.gmail.com> Hello Bruno, I don't know the MSN syntax, but for other links, you can do things like this: home | blog | irc | jabber | skype -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ On 1/20/08, Bruno Miguel wrote: > I know. But, by reducing the number of people who check my email, I reduce > the hate mails. > > One more thing: to add a msn messenger link, I should use > href="msnim:chat?contact=brunoalexandremiguel@gmail.com">texttexttext? > From brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 13:34:49 2008 From: brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com (Bruno Miguel) Date: Sun Jan 20 13:34:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: <519fa62f0801201317w51bdba48oe99ad8e023426844@mail.gmail.com> References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0801201317w51bdba48oe99ad8e023426844@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks :) A couple of minutes ago, I found the MSN Messenger sintax in the wiki. Strangely, when I found the xmpp sintax, I failed to see the msn messenger one. I'm getting old and/or blind. One more question (yes, another one). I have a tremendous lack of geekiness, so I have to ask: can I insert a class into another one, like this: Coimbra, Portugal This is rendered ok in Iceweasel and Operator doesn't have a problem interpreting the geo data. But this could not be well implemented. I've checked the wiki, but the information, although very complete, is a bit to technical for me. On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Jeff McNeill wrote: > Hello Bruno, > > I don't know the MSN syntax, but for other links, you can do things like this: > > home | class="url" href="http://jeffmcneill.com/blog">blog | class="url" href="irc://irc.freenode.net/jeffmcneill,isnick">irc | > jabber | class="url" href="skype:jeffmcneill">skype > > -- > Sincerely, > Jeff McNeill > http://jeffmcneill.com/ > > > On 1/20/08, Bruno Miguel wrote: >> I know. But, by reducing the number of people who check my email, I reduce >> the hate mails. >> >> One more thing: to add a msn messenger link, I should use >> > href="msnim:chat?contact=brunoalexandremiguel@gmail.com">texttexttext? >> > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From ryan at theryanking.com Sun Jan 20 18:20:26 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (ryan) Date: Sun Jan 20 18:20:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0801201317w51bdba48oe99ad8e023426844@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16BBFF88-72EA-4041-9752-C3CA77407D55@theryanking.com> On Jan 20, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Bruno Miguel wrote: > Thanks :) > > A couple of minutes ago, I found the MSN Messenger sintax in the > wiki. Strangely, when I found the xmpp sintax, I failed to see the > msn messenger one. I'm getting old and/or blind. > > One more question (yes, another one). I have a tremendous lack of > geekiness, so I have to ask: can I insert a class into another one, > like this: > Coimbra, > Portugal This can be simplified: Coimbra, Portugal -ryan From brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 18:37:13 2008 From: brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com (Bruno Miguel) Date: Sun Jan 20 18:37:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: <16BBFF88-72EA-4041-9752-C3CA77407D55@theryanking.com> References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0801201317w51bdba48oe99ad8e023426844@mail.gmail.com> <16BBFF88-72EA-4041-9752-C3CA77407D55@theryanking.com> Message-ID: Cool. I thought each property had to be used individualy. Thanks. :) On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, ryan wrote: > On Jan 20, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Bruno Miguel wrote: >> Thanks :) >> >> A couple of minutes ago, I found the MSN Messenger sintax in the >> wiki. Strangely, when I found the xmpp sintax, I failed to see the >> msn messenger one. I'm getting old and/or blind. >> >> One more question (yes, another one). I have a tremendous lack of >> geekiness, so I have to ask: can I insert a class into another one, >> like this: >> Coimbra, >> Portugal > > This can be simplified: > > Coimbra, > Portugal > > -ryan > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 21 01:06:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 21 01:07:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: <16BBFF88-72EA-4041-9752-C3CA77407D55@theryanking.com> References: <9C57108B-9642-4FC7-BA2C-36E6352A3121@theryanking.com> <2e95f9b80801201207u4e38cfabm8745ec980134c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <519fa62f0801201317w51bdba48oe99ad8e023426844@mail.gmail.com> <16BBFF88-72EA-4041-9752-C3CA77407D55@theryanking.com> Message-ID: In message <16BBFF88-72EA-4041-9752-C3CA77407D55@theryanking.com>, ryan writes >> One more question (yes, another one). I have a tremendous lack of >>geekiness, so I have to ask: can I insert a class into another one, >>like this: >> Coimbra >>, >> Portugal > >This can be simplified: > >Coimbra, >Portugal Each of those ampersands should be escaped, as: & -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Mon Jan 21 14:11:12 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Mon Jan 21 14:11:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] xfn and biographies Message-ID: Hello, At work, I'm kicking around microformats as a method for adding additional semantic information to archives - letters, diary entries, log books and so on. I blogged a little about this already - using rel-tag to tie together related materials: http://eatyourgreens.org.uk/archives/2008/01/microformats_an_1.html Does anyone have any thoughts on using xfn (or some variant thereof) to add machine-readable relationships to published biographies? Or in general, to express the relationships that exist within the network of people associated with an archive of published writing? A specific example is the link from http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPeople.cfm?ID=41 to http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPeople.cfm?ID=96 (near the end of the biography) where I could potentially mark that Ann is the daughter of Matthew. If xfn is embedded inside a hcard, does it refer to the person referenced by the hcard as the source of the relationship? Would I also need to somehow markup "Flinders, Matthew" with a URL so it's explicit, to a parser, which Matthew Flinders we're talking about? Also, the rel attribute on links seems handy for expressing relationships between letters and their authors, or letters and their recipients, or even letters in a series of correspondence. Does anyone know if there are any examples of this out there already? I'll try to mock up some prototype pages next month, but thought I'd get comments from people with practical experience of using microformats before I start. Thanks Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 21 15:17:15 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 21 15:28:34 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] xfn and biographies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Jim O'Donnell writes >Does anyone have any thoughts on using xfn (or some variant thereof) >to add machine-readable relationships to published biographies? Or in >general, to express the relationships that exist within the network of >people associated with an archive of published writing? Yes; this has been discussed in relation to genealogy on wiki: and mailing list. > A specific example is the link from >http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPeople.cfm?ID=41 >to http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPeople.cfm?ID=96 (near the end of >the biography) where I could potentially mark that Ann is the daughter >of Matthew. Presently; you can't. You can only express that she is his child, because XFN (like hCard, which you might also use to convey data about Ann and Matthew) has no expressions of gender. See also: -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 22 11:45:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 22 13:16:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] xfn and biographies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >>I could potentially mark that Ann is the daughter >>of Matthew. > >Presently; you can't. You can only express that she is his child, >because XFN [...] > has no expressions of gender. That is to say, you can't do so using microformats; you are, of course, at liberty to define your own (hopefully semantically meaningful!) link types, per: -- Andy Mabbett From mdagn at spraci.com Wed Jan 23 07:45:30 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Wed Jan 23 07:45:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200801231545.m0NFjRN06221@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> >> One more question (yes, another one). I have a tremendous lack of >>geekiness, so I have to ask: can I insert a class into another one, >>like this: >> Coimbra >>, >> Portugal > >This can be simplified: > >Coimbra, >Portugal I see latitude/longitude in those links ... perhaps geo could be used? Was anything decided about "fuzzy" locations? (eg cities/suburbs/countries/etc rather than exact street addresses) I guess geo inside "locality" or "country-name" could itself imply that it is "fuzzy"? From brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 08:20:53 2008 From: brunoalexandremiguel at gmail.com (Bruno Miguel) Date: Wed Jan 23 08:21:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Some questions about Microformats implementation In-Reply-To: <200801231545.m0NFjRN06221@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200801231545.m0NFjRN06221@proxy.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: I have geo implemented. This link is only to link to a generic location in Google Maps, so people can identify the location. On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Michael MD wrote: > >>> One more question (yes, another one). I have a tremendous lack of >>> geekiness, so I have to ask: can I insert a class into another one, >>> like this: >>> Coimbra >>> , >>> Portugal >> >> This can be simplified: >> >> Coimbra, >> Portugal > > > > I see latitude/longitude in those links ... perhaps geo could be used? > > Was anything decided about "fuzzy" locations? > (eg cities/suburbs/countries/etc rather than exact street addresses) > > I guess geo inside "locality" or "country-name" could itself imply that it > is "fuzzy"? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From khare at alumni.caltech.edu Wed Jan 23 09:47:17 2008 From: khare at alumni.caltech.edu (Rohit Khare) Date: Wed Jan 23 09:47:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: A 7-day hold on discussing legal/process issues In-Reply-To: <019901c7e52e$0fd8a0e0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> References: <019901c7e52e$0fd8a0e0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> Message-ID: <4E756B20-7D51-4162-AE8F-8D3FF4E8E58C@alumni.caltech.edu> microfolks -- Last August, I announced a decision by the microformats admins to place a seven-day hold on discussing legal and governance issues raised by Joe Andrieu [1, attached]. Now that we've recently enacted some wide-ranging changes to the legal status of microformats.org contributions [2], I would like to revisit some aspects of that message and apologize to Mr. Andrieu for those. To briefly recap my role, I am the "first point of contact" for the microformats admins on legal and governance issues. Historically, this was due to my role at CommerceNet Labs, the nonprofit organization that initially sponsored microformats.org (including the current server bills). Due to my experience with several different standards bodies and nonprofits, such as W3C, IETF, and CommerceNet, I am perhaps too familiar with some of the legal consequences of developing IT standards (though I am far, far from being a lawyer myself). In that light, I have been quite sensitive to any public discussion that links microformats.org to standards. That includes potentially overreacting to parallel discussions initiated publicly and privately with Joe Andrieu (and others) earlier that year. The community policy was (and is) to raise legal and governance issues with me directly, before escalating concerns on record with the entire community [3]. In light of our prior emails and phone calls in the spring and summer, Joe was making a good faith effort to work with that policy, so I regret any implication of impropriety on his behalf in this incident. I have always believed that he was sincere in his concerns, even though I did not always agree with his positions. Now that one aspect of the legal status of microformats has significantly advanced, with the announcement of a public-domain contribution policy, several of the concerns raised last year are now moot. Given the situation at the time, I (and the admins) would not change our decision to implement that 7-day hold. However, I personally would like to apologize for how I communicated that decision, to Joe and to the community. I am looking forward to keeping this experience in mind as we continue to work together to grow the microformats community and extend the impact of this novel approach to open data exchange and its still-evolving open development process. Sincerely, Rohit Khare [1] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007- August/010380.html [2] http://microformats.org/blog/2007/12/29/making-open-standards-as- open-as-possible/ [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/ Category:public_domain_license#Point_of_Contact >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rohit Khare [mailto:khare@alumni.caltech.edu] >> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 6:56 PM >> To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> Cc: Joe Andrieu >> Subject: A 7-day hold on discussing legal/process issues >> >> >> After Joe Andrieu's most recent edits to the wiki under "Standards, >> IP, and Transparency" [1], the admins and I have decided to impose a >> 7-day cooling-off period on discussions regarding governance and >> legal status issues by Mr. Andrieu, for repeatedly disregarding the >> community guidelines to discuss legal matters with me before >> altering >> the public wiki or archived mailing list discussions [2]. >> >> This action is not taken lightly: all of his recent messages and wiki >> edits have been concerned these topics, without any direct >> communication to me before or after. Note that while his >> mailing list >> and wiki access will be blocked for one week, if he has substantive >> contributions *other* than governance issues, he remains welcome to >> contact me to forward them on to the community. >> >> This policy, a standing request to the microformats community to >> avoid >> legal debates on record without contacting me first, has >> admittedly been questioned by him and by others. I am drafting a >> separate email addressing some of those concerns, as well as Mr. >> Andrieu's earlier public note to me [3]. Nonetheless, that is the >> current community policy for better or worse, and the volunteer >> admins have decided to uphold that with this decision. >> >> -- Rohit Khare >> >> [1] > http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance- > issues&diff=0&oldid=19334 >> [2] > http://microformats.org/wiki/ > Category:public_domain_license#Point_of_Contact >> [3] > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-July/ > 010318.h > tml > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 23 11:45:27 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 23 13:16:34 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: A 7-day hold on discussing legal/process issues In-Reply-To: <4E756B20-7D51-4162-AE8F-8D3FF4E8E58C@alumni.caltech.edu> References: <019901c7e52e$0fd8a0e0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> <4E756B20-7D51-4162-AE8F-8D3FF4E8E58C@alumni.caltech.edu> Message-ID: In message <4E756B20-7D51-4162-AE8F-8D3FF4E8E58C@alumni.caltech.edu>, Rohit Khare writes >To briefly recap my role, I am the "first point of contact" for the >microformats admins on legal and governance issues. [...] >I am perhaps too familiar with some of the legal consequences of >developing IT standards (though I am far, far from being a lawyer >myself). That's interesting, in the light of: -- Andy Mabbett From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Jan 23 12:44:44 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Jan 23 16:05:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies References: Message-ID: Jim O'Donnell wrote: > Also, the rel attribute on links seems handy for expressing > relationships between letters and their authors, or letters and their > recipients, or even letters in a series of correspondence. Does anyone > know if there are any examples of this out there already? rel/rev="made" is in common usage. You could use rel="made" when linking from author to letter, and rev="made" for the reverse relationship. To link letters in a series of correspondence there is of course rel="next" and rel="prev". Also rel="first" and rel="last" may prove easy, and rel="contents" to get back to the full listing of letters. Not sure about linking recipients to letters. You may need to define your own rel/rev="recipient". -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 24 days, 7:53.] CSS to HTML Compiler http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/01/22/css-compile/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 23 14:33:01 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 23 17:04:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: <21e770780801082331w69a8f7fah5fc48b1f251c070e@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801082331w69a8f7fah5fc48b1f251c070e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780801082331w69a8f7fah5fc48b1f251c070e@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 09/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message , Jeremy >> Keith writes >> >> >> Perhaps the rule should be that the hCard is for a place if the >> >>"fn" is >> >> on *any* address ("adr") child-component [1] (e.g. "fn locality" or >> >>"fn >> >> street-address")? >> > >> >This strikes me as being pretty workable. I'm mentally kicking the >> >tyres and this seems like quite a robust solution. >> >> Thank you. >> >> In that case, would people agree, or object, if we: .... > >--- some additional time to review this would be nice. How are you getting on with that? -- Andy Mabbett From joe at switchbook.com Wed Jan 23 19:11:45 2008 From: joe at switchbook.com (Joe Andrieu) Date: Wed Jan 23 20:41:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: A 7-day hold on discussing legal/process issues In-Reply-To: <4E756B20-7D51-4162-AE8F-8D3FF4E8E58C@alumni.caltech.edu> References: <019901c7e52e$0fd8a0e0$0200a8c0@andrieuhome> <4E756B20-7D51-4162-AE8F-8D3FF4E8E58C@alumni.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <028c01c85e36$da669520$8f33bf60$@com> Rohit Khare wrote (January 23, 2008 9:47 AM): > Last August, I announced a decision by the microformats admins to > place a seven-day hold on discussing legal and governance issues > raised by Joe Andrieu [1, attached]. Now that we've recently enacted > some wide-ranging changes to the legal status of microformats.org > contributions [2], I would like to revisit some aspects of that > message and apologize to Mr. Andrieu for those. > > To briefly recap my role, I am the "first point of contact" for the > microformats admins on legal and governance issues. Historically, > this was due to my role at CommerceNet Labs, the nonprofit > organization that initially sponsored microformats.org (including the > current server bills). Due to my experience with several different > standards bodies and nonprofits, such as W3C, IETF, and CommerceNet, > I am perhaps too familiar with some of the legal consequences of > developing IT standards (though I am far, far from being a lawyer > myself). > > In that light, I have been quite sensitive to any public discussion > that links microformats.org to standards. That includes potentially > overreacting to parallel discussions initiated publicly and privately > with Joe Andrieu (and others) earlier that year. The community policy > was (and is) to raise legal and governance issues with me directly, > before escalating concerns on record with the entire community [3]. > In light of our prior emails and phone calls in the spring and > summer, Joe was making a good faith effort to work with that policy, > so I regret any implication of impropriety on his behalf in this > incident. I have always believed that he was sincere in his concerns, > even though I did not always agree with his positions. > > Now that one aspect of the legal status of microformats has > significantly advanced, with the announcement of a public-domain > contribution policy, several of the concerns raised last year are now > moot. Given the situation at the time, I (and the admins) would not > change our decision to implement that 7-day hold. However, I > personally would like to apologize for how I communicated that > decision, to Joe and to the community. I am looking forward to > keeping this experience in mind as we continue to work together to > grow the microformats community and extend the impact of this novel > approach to open data exchange and its still-evolving open > development process. > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19334 > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license#Point_of_Contact > [3] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-July/010318.h tml Rohit, Apology accepted. Although we have agreed to disagree on several relevant points, I appreciate your professionalism and thoughtful consideration about how to resolve my concerns about the language used in the 7-day ban. As you have clarified your continued position that you would do it again, I'd like the record to show my own position in our off-list conversations: Based on our admitted prior emails and phone conversations, I, in fact, met the community guidelines whose violation was the basis for the ban, and therefore, the ban was inappropriate. It has taken a while to work through the details of that disagreement, but it is a testament to the priorities of the uF leadership to have done so without distracting the working lists with a governance issue. And with that, in the interest of avoiding a protracted debate on governance, I hope we can learn from it and move on. Best, -j -- Joe Andrieu SwitchBook http://www.switchbook.com joe@switchbook.com +1 (805) 705-8651 > > Sincerely, > Rohit Khare > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Rohit Khare [mailto:khare@alumni.caltech.edu] > >> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 6:56 PM > >> To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org > >> Cc: Joe Andrieu > >> Subject: A 7-day hold on discussing legal/process issues > >> > >> > >> After Joe Andrieu's most recent edits to the wiki under "Standards, > >> IP, and Transparency" [1], the admins and I have decided to impose a > >> 7-day cooling-off period on discussions regarding governance and > >> legal status issues by Mr. Andrieu, for repeatedly disregarding the > >> community guidelines to discuss legal matters with me before > >> altering > >> the public wiki or archived mailing list discussions [2]. > >> > >> This action is not taken lightly: all of his recent messages and > wiki > >> edits have been concerned these topics, without any direct > >> communication to me before or after. Note that while his > >> mailing list > >> and wiki access will be blocked for one week, if he has substantive > >> contributions *other* than governance issues, he remains welcome to > >> contact me to forward them on to the community. > >> > >> This policy, a standing request to the microformats community to > >> avoid > >> legal debates on record without contacting me first, has > >> admittedly been questioned by him and by others. I am drafting a > >> separate email addressing some of those concerns, as well as Mr. > >> Andrieu's earlier public note to me [3]. Nonetheless, that is the > >> current community policy for better or worse, and the volunteer > >> admins have decided to uphold that with this decision. > >> > >> -- Rohit Khare > >> > >> [1] > > http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance- > > issues&diff=0&oldid=19334 > >> [2] > > http://microformats.org/wiki/ > > Category:public_domain_license#Point_of_Contact > >> [3] > > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-July/ > > 010318.h > > tml > > From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Jan 24 03:07:01 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Jan 24 03:07:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hyperlink Include Pattern Research Message-ID: <38FAD3C4-9ACD-4E81-859C-807F071A2603@ben-ward.co.uk> Last year I found some time to edit the include-pattern pages on the wiki in response to serious implementation issues surrounding the use of OBJECT to reference other parts of the page (aside: It causes multiple HTTP requests to same URL in some browsers and nearly blocked the inclusion of microformats in one of our sites). One of the key edits was to move the hyperlink-based alternative include pattern above OBJECT, and recommend it in its place. At the time of my original edit, I ensured that all hyperlink examples included inner-text to best support accessibility, according to my understanding of hyperlink issues at the time. Since then it was raised that hResume actually required that _no_ inner text be present (regardless of the include technique used) as it was only used to include a single piece of information (the hcard fn property). This resulted in an edit ? still present in the current page ? that recommends a hyperlink with no inner text, but including a title attribute in its place. The whole development has become fuzzy and lacks evidence to support mark-up decisions either for or against support of certain accessibility techniques. The issue has been short on solid research, so thanks to the commitment and incredibly dedicated work of Mike Davies, my co-worker at Yahoo! in London, we now have some. Mike has organised a test of hyperlinks in multiple configurations and had them tested by real users of screen readers (Artur Ortega and Victor Tsaran of the Yahoo! Accessibility Stakeholders Group). There's no simulation, or guesswork. Both testers depend on screen reader technology every day. With their co-operation, we hope to have produced the most useful and insightful test data on hyperlinks, and identify the most probably behaviour of most screen readers in the wild. Mike has provided a thorough write up of his research on the Yahoo! User Interface Blog: http://yuiblog.com/blog/2008/01/23/empty-links/ I encourage you to take a little time to digest it, and note the complex caveats that screen readers introduce to our work. The conclusions are drawn clearly, and there's plenty of reference to our include-pattern development. I need to do another pass over the include-pattern page, tidy it up again and move discussion onto the -issues page (I didn't have a chance to update the issues page when I updated the spec, so I'll do that this time around). I'll be taking some time to digest this research first, and work to present the pros/cons of our current solutions as best we can. In doing so, I'll try to identify if there are situations which neither pattern can solve. Your feedback is encouraged, and we hope this research proves useful to the community (and beyond). Regards, Ben From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 24 15:07:19 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 24 15:08:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" Message-ID: A brainstorm of possible alternative methods of using include in microformats, avoiding the use of the problematic "OBJECT" or empty-link variants: Birmingham then: [...] or [...] or [...] or [...] or Birmingham [...] [...] Note: "birminghamid" used for clarity; "birmingham" would be the semantically correct value. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 24 15:21:08 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 24 15:51:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes > Birmingham > >then: [...] >or > > [...] or [...] or [...] or [...] -- Andy Mabbett From mark at markng.me.uk Fri Jan 25 00:08:24 2008 From: mark at markng.me.uk (Mark Ng) Date: Fri Jan 25 00:08:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] HTML 5, rev and votelinks Message-ID: On spending some time looking at the absent attributes section in the html 5 differences document ( http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-diff-20080122/#absent-attributes ), I've noticed that rev is absent from the html 5 spec. How does this affect usage of this attribute in vote-links ? Mark From fberriman at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 00:31:48 2008 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Fri Jan 25 00:31:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] HTML 5, rev and votelinks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25/01/2008, Mark Ng wrote: > On spending some time looking at the absent attributes section in the > html 5 differences document ( > http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-diff-20080122/#absent-attributes ), > I've noticed that rev is absent from the html 5 spec. How does this > affect usage of this attribute in vote-links ? Hi Mark I think various people have been aware of rev being non-existent in HTML5 for a while. It's not really cause for concern for a couple of reasons. Firstly, microformats in some cases will only be an interim solution until something better comes along that does some of the things that microformats do better (HTML5 may well be one of those things). We shouldn't therefore necessarily look at changing any formats *now* to suit a spec that doesn't actually exist yet and may not for quite some time. Microformats have to work for what we've actually got in the present. As for the actual VoteLinks - I wonder if when it comes down to it, it would be good and interesting to see how much usage they're actually getting. Rev is notoriously under-used and generally misunderstood (I for one constantly swap the definitions of rev and rel and have to double check each time). F -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From derrick at pallas.us Fri Jan 25 09:38:23 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Fri Jan 25 09:38:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] HTML 5, rev and votelinks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479A1E8F.2@pallas.us> Frances Berriman wrote: > As for the actual VoteLinks - I wonder if when it comes down to it, it > would be good and interesting to see how much usage they're actually > getting. Rev is notoriously under-used and generally misunderstood (I > for one constantly swap the definitions of rev and rel and have to > double check each time). > The last time I looked at the usage of @rev on the web, I found that the attribute was mostly filled with garbage. In general, the garbage was generated by WYSIWYG tools and spammers; in either case, robots. Both @rel and @class have a much better track record for being useful. As for xFolk itself, I see that @class=~xfolkentry has about 10% the number of hits that @class=~vcard has. (Interestingly, about 1% of the people trying to use hCard put @class=~hcard.) For comparison, @rel=~tag has about 5x the number of hits that hCard gets. (In this case, hit means that at least one instance of that selector appeared in the document, so a document with a single hCard and a document with hundreds count the same in this analysis.) Whether any of those are validly formed or unique are orthogonal questions and would take a bit longer to answer. This is all from the archive at Alexa --- my employer, whom I am not speaking on behalf of --- and can be determined independently through their Million Search Results service by using the ClassTag and RelTag operators. (I am aware that those are oddly named; sorry.) ~ Derrick Pallas From derrick at pallas.us Fri Jan 25 09:41:40 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Fri Jan 25 09:41:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] HTML 5, rev and votelinks In-Reply-To: <479A1E8F.2@pallas.us> References: <479A1E8F.2@pallas.us> Message-ID: <479A1F54.2090002@pallas.us> Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Frances Berriman wrote: >> As for the actual VoteLinks - I wonder if when it comes down to it, it >> would be good and interesting to see how much usage they're actually >> getting. Rev is notoriously under-used and generally misunderstood (I >> for one constantly swap the definitions of rev and rel and have to >> double check each time). >> > > As for xFolk itself Oops, I'm not sure why I went on to talk about xFolk. Needless to say, VoteLinks gets orders of magnitude less use than xFolk. ~ Derrick Pallas From guillaume at lebleu.org Fri Jan 25 16:25:13 2008 From: guillaume at lebleu.org (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Fri Jan 25 16:25:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org> Andy Mabbett wrote: > A brainstorm of possible alternative methods of using include in > microformats, avoiding the use of the problematic "OBJECT" or empty-link > variants: > > > Birmingham > > then: > > [...] > > > What about: my address Birmingham ? The idea is that: ... ... The shortcut notation is convenient when properties are grouped together in the HTML tree (usually the case), while the subject/predicate/object works in any case. In other words, in the first case, you can view the parent/child relationship (span of class "adr" is the parent element of span of class="locality") as overloaded semantically: it means both "part of" (in HTML) and "property of" (in microformats). Don't mean to start a debate on properties vs relationships... Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 26 01:12:33 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 26 01:13:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" In-Reply-To: <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org> References: <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org> Message-ID: In message <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> A brainstorm of possible alternative methods of using include in >> microformats, avoiding the use of the problematic "OBJECT" or empty-link >> variants: >What about: > >my address > >Birmingham > >? That seems to presume, wrongly, a 1:1 relationship between the included data and the microformat. Consider: my address my second address Birmingham It also requires publishers to make a within-page link, where none existed previously. Furthermore, "rev" is deprecated for use in microformats. -- Andy Mabbett From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sat Jan 26 03:11:37 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sat Jan 26 03:18:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: include pattern usability discussed on YUI blog Message-ID: <21e523c20801260311r39fe5086s980f8dda0232ba37@mail.gmail.com> http://yuiblog.com/blog/2008/01/23/empty-links/ -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 26 08:53:12 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 26 09:23:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 23 Jan 2008, at 20:44, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Jim O'Donnell wrote: > >> Also, the rel attribute on links seems handy for expressing >> relationships between letters and their authors, or letters and their >> recipients, or even letters in a series of correspondence. Does >> anyone >> know if there are any examples of this out there already? > > rel/rev="made" is in common usage. You could use rel="made" when > linking > from author to letter, and rev="made" for the reverse relationship. > letter-to-author is the relationship I'm really interested in, in the sense of 'show me all letters by the same author' or 'show me all correspondence in this series'. Rev seems a bit of a dead-end, but I had thought of maybe using rel="author" on a link to the author. Or I could go for consistency with Dublin Core, since that's commonly used in archives, and use rel="creator". Has anyone done any work on simple microformat class names based on the Dublin Core element set? > To link letters in a series of correspondence there is of course > rel="next" and rel="prev". Also rel="first" and rel="last" may > prove easy, > and rel="contents" to get back to the full listing of letters. > Yeah, that's what I'd thought of doing but I hadn't considered the fact that each letter is several pages in itself. So there's next and prev in terms of navigating within a letter, and then next and prev in the context of moving between letters in a series. I don't think there'll be one definitive table of contents. I'm not decided on this yet, but at the moment I envisage several methods of listing the contents - indexed by author, by time, by recipient or by places and vessels referenced within the text. > Not sure about linking recipients to letters. You may need to > define your > own rel/rev="recipient". That would make sense. Looking at the texts, I've realised that the recipient is not always the person that the letter is addressed to. Eg. he addresses a letter to Rev. Tyler but it's intended for his wife. I think I may have to publish author and recipient alongside each letter, rather than marking them up directly in his text. Cheers Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 26 08:35:07 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 26 10:08:34 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" In-Reply-To: References: <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org> Message-ID: <5FA6A2B2-BDAA-43E4-B9E7-FCAE286DC60E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Is the include pattern really necessary, for hResume at least? Given that each hCard describing a previous position is enclosed inside a hResume, and given that the resume itself has a card with contact details, including an fn for a person, can't a parser allow the enclosed hCards to inherit the fn from that top-level hCard? Alternatively, following on from the discussions here about cards for places and organisations, couldn't an author mark up the organisation in a previous position with class="fn org", thus obviating the need for a separate fn in the first place? Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 26 11:07:53 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 26 11:09:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies In-Reply-To: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >letter-to-author is the relationship I'm really interested in That sounds like a situation where you would use the putative "citation" microformat which will hopefully include an "author" or "creator" property, utilising hCard. In turn, such hCards could then use the proposed "definitive hCard", "more-detailed hCard" or "parent hCard" property (perhaps rel="expansion") to indicate the page 0or page-fragment, using an ID) on which your definitive biography of the author resides. -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 26 14:33:12 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 26 14:33:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies In-Reply-To: References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <610EF28D-0476-4707-A55E-37E23D90B74A@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 26 Jan 2008, at 19:07, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B- > D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell > writes > >> letter-to-author is the relationship I'm really interested in > > That sounds like a situation where you would use the putative > "citation" microformat which will hopefully include an "author" or > "creator" property, utilising hCard. > I'm thinking, at the moment, of avoiding hCard completely in the letters themselves, basically to avoid all the horrible issues of ambiguity and irregularity of names. For example, where Flinders signs this letter 'Matt'w Flinders' http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/DisplayDocument.cfm? ID=110&CurrentPage=1&CurrentXMLPage=3 I'll just mark that link up using rel="tag", where the tag URL points to the biography currently at http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPeople.cfm?ID=41 then use hCard to mark up Flinders as a person on that page. I think what I'm saying is have one hCard per person on the site, which is the biography page, then link to those hCards as tags within the letters. That seems a lot easier than faffing around with citations and different types of hCard. > In turn, such hCards could then use the proposed "definitive > hCard", "more-detailed hCard" or "parent hCard" property (perhaps > rel="expansion") to indicate the page 0or page-fragment, using an > ID) on which your definitive biography of the author resides. > Thinking out loud here - I'm not hugely concerned about a definitive biography, as long as the relationships between documents at different URLs are clearly defined. For instance, suppose I have a biography, and hCard, for Flinders at /tags/people/Matthew_Flinders. I could have a link from that page to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Matthew_Flinders and mark it rel="me" to indicate that the two URLs describe the same person. If my biography links to a letter, and that link says rel="creator", then I think it's reasonable for a parser to infer, from the rel="me" link, that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Flinders also describes the creator of the letter. I don't think I need to state that my hCard is definitive, only that it's equivalent to the one at wikipedia. I suppose it would be interesting to have a mechanism to mark up equivalence in general, not just for people. For example, to link the description of Boston http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPlaces.cfm?ID=6 to the wikipedia page for Boston http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston%2C_Lincolnshire using whatever the equivalent of rel="me" would be for places. Ditto for pages describing vessels, if the vessel has a wikipedia page. Then, a letter tagged with a link to the short description of Boston would, indirectly, also be tagged with the wikipedia description, as well as being linked back to all references to that place in the archive. Jim Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 26 11:13:31 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 26 14:45:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" In-Reply-To: <5FA6A2B2-BDAA-43E4-B9E7-FCAE286DC60E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org> <5FA6A2B2-BDAA-43E4-B9E7-FCAE286DC60E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <5FA6A2B2-BDAA-43E4-B9E7-FCAE286DC60E@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >Is the include pattern really necessary, for hResume at least? The include pattern is used in many microformats (and potentially many more to come) It is in the interests of all concerned (i.e. publishers, parsers and the authors of future specs) that it works the same way in all of them. -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 26 14:40:53 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 26 16:39:18 2008 Subject: Fwd: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies References: <610EF28D-0476-4707-A55E-37E23D90B74A@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <931B0978-45C6-4A82-A37E-40C2D19DCA07@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Begin forwarded message: > If my biography links to a letter, and that link says > rel="creator", then I think it's reasonable for a parser to infer, > from the rel="me" link, that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Matthew_Flinders also describes the creator of the letter. I don't > think I need to state that my hCard is definitive, only that it's > equivalent to the one at wikipedia. Oops, that was the wrong way around. I meant that if a letter links to the NMM biography, with rel="creator" on that link, and the NMM bio then links to wikipedia, with rel="me", then a microformats spider should be able to infer that the wikipedia page describes the author of the letter by following the chain of links and looking at the rel attributes. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sun Jan 27 00:45:41 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sun Jan 27 00:47:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies In-Reply-To: <610EF28D-0476-4707-A55E-37E23D90B74A@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <610EF28D-0476-4707-A55E-37E23D90B74A@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <610EF28D-0476-4707-A55E-37E23D90B74A@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >On 26 Jan 2008, at 19:07, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> That sounds like a situation where you would use the putative >>"citation" microformat which will hopefully include an "author" or >>"creator" property, utilising hCard. >> >I'm thinking, at the moment, of avoiding hCard completely in the >letters themselves, Why? It adds good, semantic mark-up. >basically to avoid all the horrible issues of ambiguity and >irregularity of names. For example, where Flinders signs this letter >'Matt'w Flinders' What's ambiguous about: Matt'w ? You should be using ABBR in such cases, even if you're not using microformats. >I'll just mark that link up using rel="tag", where the tag URL points >to the biography currently at >http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPeople.cfm?ID=41 >then use hCard to mark up Flinders as a person on that page. I think >what I'm saying is have one hCard per person on the site, which is the >biography page, then link to those hCards as tags within the letters. >That seems a lot easier than faffing around with citations and >different types of hCard. It may be easier, but is it better? -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sun Jan 27 03:37:21 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sun Jan 27 03:37:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies In-Reply-To: References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <610EF28D-0476-4707-A55E-37E23D90B74A@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <2BF80108-3D23-43FB-9B9F-7E9AC8DF3ED2@eatyourgreens.org.uk> >>> >> I'm thinking, at the moment, of avoiding hCard completely in the >> letters themselves, > > Why? It adds good, semantic mark-up. > Practical reasons, really. The names in the letters aren't marked up specifically as names, or regularised in any way. The HTML is generated, not manually authored. The underlying XML looks something like Matt'w Flinders but, equally, the text inside the tag could refer to Flinders as Captain Flinders, or use some other text to refer to him. So I can't write an XSL transform to generate specific markup for particular cases, such as wrapping "Matt'w" in . I think this is one point that will come out of this project - to what level of granularity is it useful for the people transcribing a document to mark up the semantics of the contents. These particular papers have been marked up with references, but nothing more specific than that. Also, should we expect the people doing the transcribing, who are not web designers or developers, to have a knowledge of microformats, or should we provide tools to do the hard work for them. > >> I'll just mark that link up using rel="tag", where the tag URL points >> to the biography currently at >> http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/ListPeople.cfm?ID=41 >> then use hCard to mark up Flinders as a person on that page. I think >> what I'm saying is have one hCard per person on the site, which >> is the >> biography page, then link to those hCards as tags within the >> letters. >> That seems a lot easier than faffing around with citations and >> different types of hCard. > > It may be easier, but is it better? > I don't think it's worse. We don't know, from the markup, that the string 'Matt'w Flinders' is a name but we do know that it's a reference to a hCard, and that hCard in turn can give us a name and URL (or URLs) for Flinders. Plus we have a network of documents that reference the same hCard, which is more useful, as a library tool, than a set of hCards which might be harder to link together. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From guillaume at lebleu.org Mon Jan 28 16:46:31 2008 From: guillaume at lebleu.org (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Mon Jan 28 17:16:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" In-Reply-To: References: <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org> Message-ID: <479E7767.8060105@lebleu.org> Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org>, Guillaume Lebleu > writes > > >> Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >>> A brainstorm of possible alternative methods of using include in >>> microformats, avoiding the use of the problematic "OBJECT" or empty-link >>> variants: >>> > > >> What about: >> >> my address >> >> Birmingham >> >> ? >> > > That seems to presume, wrongly, a 1:1 relationship between the included > data and the microformat. Consider: > > my address > > my second address > > Birmingham > Sorry for the late response. In this case, I would group the two "adr" in a container and have the href point to that container. For instance:
    Our company has offices at two addresses in San Francisco:
    • 665 3rd Street, and
    • 123 Folsom
    .
    adr1 and adr2 inherit the property attached to their parent ul. > > It also requires publishers to make a within-page link, where none > existed previously. > I am not sure what you mean. I don't see why this is such a problem when we require them to markup content anyhow. > Furthermore, "rev" is deprecated for use in microformats. > > Ok, sorry I had missed point 2.10 in the rel page. I won't push the above idea further in this case, but since there is not much content in there that justifies the decision, I'd appreciate any pointer anyone has about how rev came to be deprecated in microformats. From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 28 11:53:36 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 28 17:24:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] simple-bsd-license wiki page Message-ID: What is: for? Do we still need it? -- Andy Mabbett From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Jan 28 17:31:54 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Jan 28 17:32:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Possible alternative methods for "include" In-Reply-To: <5FA6A2B2-BDAA-43E4-B9E7-FCAE286DC60E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <479A7DE9.9050805@lebleu.org> <5FA6A2B2-BDAA-43E4-B9E7-FCAE286DC60E@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: I'm standing back from this discussion until I've updated the include- pattern documentation itself, since I feel my participation would be premature otherwise. The update following on our research at Yahoo is drafted and will happen once I've cleared a handful of other items from my actions list. In the meantime? On 26 Jan 2008, at 16:35, Jim O'Donnell wrote: > Is the include pattern really necessary, for hResume at least? > Given that each hCard describing a previous position is enclosed > inside a hResume, and given that the resume itself has a card with > contact details, including an fn for a person, can't a parser allow > the enclosed hCards to inherit the fn from that top-level hCard? This strikes me as absolutely the correct way to consider the problem. Off the top of my head the only spec which has an absolute demand for including no content-text is hResume ? hReview is generally reusing an entire item, such that a small piece of relevant inner text is not duplication to the same degree. If this is a valid problem, then revisiting hResume to see whether it still _needs_ to use the include pattern at all would be a better first step than jumping straight in with a mark-up solution. I defer to hResume experts for feedback on that. But confirmation of the continued include-pattern requirement would be appreciated. Ben From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Mon Jan 28 17:19:23 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Mon Jan 28 18:43:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator & name optimisation Message-ID: Operator is parsing M.Turner (note absence of space after the full stop), from the page: as having a "nickname" of "M.Turner" rather than the intended: given-name: M. family-name: Turner which seems to be strictly-correct interpreation of the hCard spec. Should the name optimisation rules be re-written to take account of this pattern? -- Andy Mabbett From hober0 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:50:13 2008 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Mon Jan 28 18:50:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: xfn and biographies References: Message-ID: Jim O'Donnell wrote: > At work, I'm kicking around microformats as a method for adding > additional semantic information to archives - letters, diary entries, > log books and so on[...] Also, the rel attribute on links seems handy > for expressing relationships between letters and their authors, or > letters and their recipients, or even letters in a series of > correspondence. Does anyone know if there are any examples of this out > there already? I think hAtom is a natural fit for letters?letters have content, one or more authors, and a date, just like a blog post. This is why I used hAtom to mark up the Federalist Papers: http://federali.st/ HTH. -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Tue Jan 29 18:24:36 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Tue Jan 29 18:24:40 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Digg joins DataPortability Project (Microformats mentioned) Message-ID: <479FDFE4.6040904@digitalbazaar.com> Digg has joined the DataPortability[1] Project: http://blog.digg.com/?p=108 >From the piece: "Just this week, we added MicroID, a Microformat that lets you prove to other services that you own your Digg user profile." Since when was "MicroID" a Microformat? Reading through the spec, it does some very non-microformatty things: 5 It's great that they're doing the whole data portability thing, but looks like they're not quite sure about the details yet? Anyone know anybody at Digg that could shed some light on where they're going with all of this? -- manu [1] http://www.dataportability.org/ -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: Intro to the Semantic Web in 6 minutes (video) http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2007/12/26/semantic-web-intro From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 30 12:20:27 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 30 13:52:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Dublin Core as a microformat (was: Re: xfn and biographies) In-Reply-To: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >Has anyone done any work on simple microformat class names based on >the Dublin Core element set? [belated response] That's an area I'd be interested (as someone required to use DC in my professional work) in pursuing. Some groundwork has been done. See this Google search for "rel=schema.*" on : and, since there is clearly a schema already in existence, a piece of hidden metadata such as: easily becomes publishable as: Acme Inc. or, inside another microformat, say hCard: Acme Inc. Note also that Dublin Core provides a range of pre-existing vocabularies, which might e re-usable (without the dc. prefix) where names are needed for classes in other microformats. For example, the DC type "sound" might be useful at the lowest level of hAudio -- Andy Mabbett From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Wed Jan 30 14:08:49 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Wed Jan 30 14:08:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Dublin Core as a microformat In-Reply-To: References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <47A0F571.5060003@digitalbazaar.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > Note also that Dublin Core provides a range of pre-existing > vocabularies, which might e re-usable (without the dc. prefix) where > names are needed for classes in other microformats. For example, the DC > type "sound" might be useful at the lowest level of hAudio Not to mention hAudio could also use DC.title instead of FN... or DC.creator/DC.contributor instead of CONTRIBUTOR, or DC.date instead of PUBLISHED, and DC.description instead of DESCRIPTION. I've never been happy with the choice of FN instead of TITLE in hAudio (TITLE means "job title" in Microformats). This could offer a good compromise if people are interested? -- manu From m at klml.de Wed Jan 30 14:33:05 2008 From: m at klml.de (Klaus Mueller) Date: Wed Jan 30 14:33:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] mediawiki-mark-up-issues Message-ID: <47A0FB21.9030608@klml.de> Hi folks, I tried to make some easy templates in Mediawiki for like hCard and hCalendar: the overview: http://www.monacomedia.de/muenchenwiki/index.php/M%C3%BCnchen_Wiki:Mikroformat an example: http://www.monacomedia.de/muenchenwiki/index.php/Bayerische_Staatsbibliothek is this useful for mediawiki-mark-up-issues? http://microformats.org/wiki/mediawiki-mark-up-issues greetz klml -- Klaus Mueller Schwanthaler Str. 13 80336 M?nchen home: +49 89 973 961 49 mobile: +49 178 54 38 400 klml.de From karl at w3.org Wed Jan 30 14:35:08 2008 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Wed Jan 30 14:35:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Dublin Core as a microformat (was: Re: xfn and biographies) In-Reply-To: References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <6957BC11-FDAA-4E64-BCF4-C5BABF301222@w3.org> Le 31 janv. 2008 ? 05:20, Andy Mabbett a ?crit : > and, since there is clearly a schema already in existence, a piece of > hidden metadata such as: > > "hidden" "hidden" > easily becomes publishable as: > > Acme Inc. "hidden" visible Just the name becomes visible for people. There are meta names which are useful, let's be careful before throwing the baby with the water of the bath. are both used by Spotlight for example for indexing documents on Mac Os X. That is very practical. There are also used by many search engines indexers. It would be good to make a survey of what of Dublin Core is implemented in which products in terms of authoring and indexing. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 30 14:52:26 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 30 14:54:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Dublin Core as a microformat (was: Re: xfn and biographies) In-Reply-To: <6957BC11-FDAA-4E64-BCF4-C5BABF301222@w3.org> References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <6957BC11-FDAA-4E64-BCF4-C5BABF301222@w3.org> Message-ID: In message <6957BC11-FDAA-4E64-BCF4-C5BABF301222@w3.org>, Karl Dubost writes > >Le 31 janv. 2008 ? 05:20, Andy Mabbett a ?crit : >> and, since there is clearly a schema already in existence, a piece of >> hidden metadata such as: >> >> > > "hidden" "hidden" > >> easily becomes publishable as: >> >> Acme Inc. > > > "hidden" visible > >Just the name becomes visible for people. >There are meta names which are useful, let's be careful before throwing >the baby with the water of the bath. I'm not suggesting that the former model be prohibited. > > > >are both used by Spotlight for example for indexing documents on Mac Os X. Nor am I suggesting that those be prohibited. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 30 14:59:32 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 30 15:00:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] mediawiki-mark-up-issues In-Reply-To: <47A0FB21.9030608@klml.de> References: <47A0FB21.9030608@klml.de> Message-ID: In message <47A0FB21.9030608@klml.de>, Klaus Mueller writes >I tried to make some easy templates in Mediawiki for like hCard and >hCalendar: Thank you. >the overview: >http://www.monacomedia.de/muenchenwiki/index.php/M%C3%BCnchen_Wiki:Mikroformat The hCalendar events on that page are invalid; they lack "summary" and valid "dtstart" properties. >an example: >http://www.monacomedia.de/muenchenwiki/index.php/Bayerische_Staatsbibliothek The hCard on that page is invalid (it has no "fn" property, which appears to be an error in the template. I think you will need to sue some conditional statements, or provide different templates for organisations and venues. >is this useful for mediawiki-mark-up-issues? >http://microformats.org/wiki/mediawiki-mark-up-issues Which particular issues do your templates address? -- Andy Mabbett From info at weborganics.co.uk Wed Jan 30 16:03:46 2008 From: info at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Wed Jan 30 16:03:57 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Dublin Core as a microformat In-Reply-To: <47A0F571.5060003@digitalbazaar.com> References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <47A0F571.5060003@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <1201737826.11223.14.camel@cpc3-blac3-0-0-cust324.manc.cable.ntl.com> On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 17:08 -0500, Manu Sporny wrote: > Andy Mabbett wrote: > > Note also that Dublin Core provides a range of pre-existing > > vocabularies, which might e re-usable (without the dc. prefix) where > > names are needed for classes in other microformats. For example, the DC > > type "sound" might be useful at the lowest level of hAudio > > Not to mention hAudio could also use DC.title instead of FN... or > DC.creator/DC.contributor instead of CONTRIBUTOR, or DC.date instead of > PUBLISHED, and DC.description instead of DESCRIPTION. > > I've never been happy with the choice of FN instead of TITLE in hAudio > (TITLE means "job title" in Microformats). This could offer a good > compromise if people are interested? Yes I am, too many fn's in the current haudio proposal, fn in hcard is fine, fn in an item that's good too but for the main title seems inaccurate and halfhearted. maybe this discussion should be moved to microformats-new for further discussion?, I am in favour of re-using entry-title from hAtom or something with similar semantics like audio-title. I don't fancy re-opening the can-of-worms discussion about re-using "title"... although it may be an interesting discussion. Thanks Martin McEvoy > > -- manu > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Wed Jan 30 16:16:34 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Wed Jan 30 16:16:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Dublin Core as a microformat (was: Re: xfn and biographies) In-Reply-To: References: <0F667B0C-8A0D-4345-AF3B-D6D191BA3F38@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: I wonder if this use case is already solved by eRDF, since that provides mechanisms for linking to the Dublin Core namespaces and then specifying the properties in HTML class attributes. On 30 Jan 2008, at 20:20, Andy Mabbett wrote: > Acme Inc. > > or, inside another microformat, say hCard: > > Acme Inc. In eRDF, that becomes: Acme Inc. and Acme Inc. respectively. The only practical difference I see, were we to approach this in the microformats process, is that we'd find a different solution to including links to RDF schema in the HEAD of a document (in eRDF, using ). Is that the only problem we'd be trying to solve in making a Dublin Core microformat? Ben From info at weborganics.co.uk Wed Jan 30 18:00:26 2008 From: info at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Wed Jan 30 18:07:40 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] [ANN] grabb.it Pending hAudio Rollout. Message-ID: <1201744826.12634.14.camel@cpc3-blac3-0-0-cust324.manc.cable.ntl.com> Hello All I have recently been in discussion with Chris Anderson and Greg Borenstein from Grabb.it [1] who have announced a planned roll out of hAudio in their pages, this will exist in two forms of support. 1, In the Grabb.it user pages (such as http://grabb.it/users/greg ) will be marked up with valid hAudio. 2, Grabb.it will correctly parse hAudio when it encounters it on the web which will be done by adding hAudio support to Mofo [2], the general purpose Ruby microformat parser. None of the above is Live (Yet) as they plan on rolling out hAudio soon in the days to come as their time schedule allows. Great News I think. [1] http://grabb.it [2] http://mofo.rubyforge.org/ Thanks Martin McEvoy