From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 07:06:19 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 07:07:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values Message-ID: I have a page at: which uses the prototype "species" microformat. Operator returns for example: trinominal=Mergus m. merganser from source code: Mergus m. merganser which I would have expected to return: trinominal=Mergus merganser merganser since that is the "semantic" meaning of the cited source-code. However, I don't think the abbr-design-pattern specification is clear on this point. Am I correct? If so, should the abbr-design-pattern specification be updated, and/or an appropriate example be included? How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, such as, say: New John St. West (a real example; compare: & ). -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 08:42:42 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 08:44:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Edward O'Connor writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> I have a need to mark up some people's names, which are given as >> initials only, and where the full names for which those initials stand >> are not known. For example, "A. N. Other". >[...] >> In the absence of an "initials" property, how would you mark up such a >> name, in an hCard? > >How about without @title? Semantically, that might make sense (and is valid HTML), but how would parsers handle missing titles, given the abbr-design-pattern? [1] There is still the issue of what class names are most apt, though. [1] Two examples at the start of: which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null values. Is this something else which needs clarifying and codifying in the abbr-design-pattern spec? I've added it to the issues page: -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 08:42:20 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 08:44:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, such >as, say: > > > New John > St. > West > Operator and X2V each return, at the time of writing, "New John St. West", not the expected "New John Street West"; see: -- Andy Mabbett From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:27:53 2008 From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy) Date: Tue Jan 1 13:28:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2934A5B9-91DA-4FE2-8B31-5E9A7A3FAABA@gmail.com> Optimus will return correct string. Best, Dmitry Baranovskiy http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/ Optimus: http://microformatique.com/optimus/ On 02/01/2008, at 3:42 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > >> How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, >> such >> as, say: >> >> >> New John >> St. >> West >> > > > Operator and X2V each return, at the time of writing, "New John St. > West", not the expected "New John Street West"; see: > > > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:30:41 2008 From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy) Date: Tue Jan 1 13:31:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB0775F-1D5C-4D38-B498-4C075D56F466@gmail.com> I think parsers should ignore abbr without title. It looks quite logical. Best, Dmitry Baranovskiy http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/ Optimus: http://microformatique.com/optimus/ On 02/01/2008, at 3:42 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Edward O'Connor > writes > >> Andy Mabbett wrote: >> >>> I have a need to mark up some people's names, which are given as >>> initials only, and where the full names for which those initials >>> stand >>> are not known. For example, "A. N. Other". >> [...] >>> In the absence of an "initials" property, how would you mark up >>> such a >>> name, in an hCard? >> >> How about without @title? > > Semantically, that might make sense (and is valid HTML), but how would > parsers handle missing titles, given the abbr-design-pattern? [1] > > There is still the issue of what class names are most apt, though. > > > [1] Two examples at the start of: > > > > which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null > values. > > Is this something else which needs clarifying and codifying in the > abbr-design-pattern spec? > > I've added it to the issues page: > > issues#Issues> > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:51:37 2008 From: dmitry.baranovskiy at gmail.com (Dmitry Baranovskiy) Date: Tue Jan 1 14:47:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This probably was raised before, but I didn't find it. Why we can't put these values into class? It seems to me semantically correct: additional meaning. It is as easy to parse as title and it removes accessibility issue completely. As soon as we are going to use prefix let's gain more benefits from this and hide our machine readable data deeper. Best, Dmitry Baranovskiy http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/ Optimus: http://microformatique.com/optimus/ On 01/01/2008, at 1:00 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > #~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~# > > While I understand the desire to avoid namespacing per se, using: > > 2:23 > > or > title="value:20070912T16:03:00+01:00"> > 4.03pm > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 15:09:27 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 15:10:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCards for places In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message , Andy Mabbett writes >Perhaps the rule should be that the hCard is for a place if the "fn" is >on *any* address ("adr") child-component (e.g. "fn locality" or "fn >street-address")? > >This would allow, for instance: Further testing shows that this pattern would have to be excluded from the "implied n optimisation" rule, which, obviously, does not apply in cases such as: New York Likewise "implied nickname optimisation": Boston -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 15:54:13 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 15:55:41 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Timelines from pages with hAtom or hCalendar microformats Message-ID: [cross-posted to the Simile and microformats mailing lists] Has anyone thought of creating (or "created"!) a tool to either: * parse a page marked up with the hAtom microformat (which enables generation of an Atom feed from HTML, using pre-defined class names): and rendering that data as a Simile timeline; ? Here's a page marked up with hAtom which might make a suitable test case: or to * generate a timeline from a page containing a set of events marked up with hCalendar microformats: such as: -- Andy Mabbett * Are you using Microformats, yet: ? From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 16:25:36 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jan 1 16:25:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com> On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Andy Mabbett > writes > > >How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, such > >as, say: > > > > > > New John > > St. > > West > > > > > Operator and X2V each return, at the time of writing, "New John St. > West", not the expected "New John Street West"; see: --- this is more of a question for the dev-list. I would disagree that this is the correct interpretation. This has come-up before on the dev-list when dealing with looking into child-elements. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 16:41:26 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jan 1 16:41:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Timelines from pages with hAtom or hCalendar microformats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801011641k22a7a7dcx940df94227082645@mail.gmail.com> On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > * parse a page marked up with the hAtom microformat ... and rendering that data as a Simile timeline; Yes, the code has been written, but has not been tested enough yet. http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/microformat-encoding-and-visualization/ > * generate a timeline from a page containing a set of events > marked up with hCalendar microformats: --- Yes, the code is here and should also be checked into our versioning system. http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/hcalendar/ -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 17:52:22 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jan 1 17:52:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com> On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Edward O'Connor > >How about without @title? > ... > which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null values. The current mark-up is: Fred The user has explicitly said that the value of the ABBR is blank, so this is what X2V is pulling as the value of FN. We can discuss if is to correct to "help" the user, or to take what is explicitly been encoded no matter how silly it may seem? These sorts of parsing questions are best on the dev-list. --- brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 19:26:01 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 19:27:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr with empty or no title (was: Re: marking up initials in names) In-Reply-To: <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <21e770780801011752l3923bafar172491e7d78e9feb@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message , Edward O'Connor >> >How about without @title? >> ... >> which Operator handles (plaudits due!) but for which X2V returns null values. > >The current mark-up is: >Fred >The user has explicitly said that the value of the ABBR is blank, so >this is what X2V is pulling as the value of FN. Per my subsequent, and more detailed, notes at: * How are empty (title="") title attributes to be parsed? At the time of writing, X2V returns a null value; Operator uses the content of the abbr element. Such mark-up is valid, but semantically illogical. The former parser behaviour seems the most logical, but results in an invalid vCard. * How are missing title attributes to be parsed? This is both valid and semantically-meaningful mark-up (the content is an abbreviation, but we know not of what). At the time of writing, X2V and Operator both use the content of the abbr element; this seems sensible, and should, perhaps, be ratified in the spec. See: for examples. >We can discuss if is to correct to "help" the user, or to take what is >explicitly been encoded no matter how silly it may seem? Indeed. We could also declare that: in a microformat renders that microformat invalid, and that parsers should generate an error message. What I hope we all agree that we should not do, is to continue to have different behaviour from the two leading parsers! -- Andy Mabbett From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Tue Jan 1 20:40:15 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Tue Jan 1 20:46:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 2, 2008 10:51 AM, Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote: > This probably was raised before, but I didn't find it. Why we can't > put these values into class? It seems to me semantically correct: > additional meaning. It is as easy to parse as title and it removes > accessibility issue completely. Because class should be used for distinguishing between types of elements. When XHTML uses

by Paul Wilkins

the intention is to allow a further XML refinement to become by Paul Wilkins There are other ways to hide information from people while still allowing it to be accessible by machines. For example: -- Paul Wilkins From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Jan 1 18:28:51 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Jan 1 22:00:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] abbr-design-pattern within microformat attribute values In-Reply-To: <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13$XkDdjbveHFwCg@pigsonthewing.org.uk> [Cross-posted, so original quoted in full] In message <21e770780801011625k42e893ffy139fff7f354a0206@mail.gmail.com>, Brian Suda writes >On 01/01/2008, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> In message , Andy Mabbett >> writes >> >>I have a page at: >> >> >> >>which uses the prototype "species" microformat. >> >>Operator returns for example: >> >> trinominal=Mergus m. merganser >> >>from source code: >> >> >> Mergus >> m. >> merganser >> >> >>which I would have expected to return: >> >> trinominal=Mergus merganser merganser >> >>since that is the "semantic" meaning of the cited source-code. >> >>However, I don't think the abbr-design-pattern specification is clear >>on this point. >> >>Am I correct? If so, should the abbr-design-pattern specification be >>updated, and/or an appropriate example be included? >> >>How do other parsers handle embedded abbr, in other microformats, >such >>as, say: >> >> >> New John >> St. >> West >> >> >>(a real example; compare: & >>). >--- this is more of a question for the dev-list. OK; cross-posted and follow-ups set. I've shown my whole post, above, for that reason. > I would disagree that this is the correct interpretation. For what reason? I can't see the logic behind any other interpretation. Consider, with the " Implied n Optimization" rule in mind, the "given-name" in each of: F. Smith and F. Smith Surely they should be the same? Or consider: F. Smith and: F. Smith Again surely these should be equivalent values? In the "New John Street West" example, where has the valid and meaningful data "street" gone, if the abbr is not expanded? The author clearly intends it to be present. Again, consider: Saint Phil's Church Saint Phil's Church Which of those would the rendered "Saint Phil's Church" represent? >This has come-up before on the dev-list when dealing with looking into >child-elements. Citations/ URLs would be useful, please. There doesn't seem to be any record or summary on the wiki. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 2 02:57:22 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 2 02:58:57 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com> References: <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In message <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com>, Paul Wilkins writes >There are other ways to hide information from people while still >allowing it to be accessible by machines. >For example: > There is no guarantee that comments will be delivered to the end user - many compression algorithms (for mobile devices, for example) strip them out. -- Andy Mabbett From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Jan 2 03:25:53 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Jan 2 03:26:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2/1/08 10:57, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > In message > <18050cf90801012040g4fb606b1va37d799caa06d567@mail.gmail.com>, Paul > Wilkins writes > >> There are other ways to hide information from people while still >> allowing it to be accessible by machines. >> For example: >> > > There is no guarantee that comments will be delivered to the end user - > many compression algorithms (for mobile devices, for example) strip them > out. Are there any mobile browsers/extensions that recognise microformats (genuine question pertinent to current work)? http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From ajaswa at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:44:08 2008 From: ajaswa at gmail.com (Andrew Jaswa) Date: Wed Jan 2 14:44:13 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices WAS: A further possible solution to the "abbr" accessibility issue Message-ID: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 2, 2008 6:25 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: > > > > Are there any mobile browsers/extensions that recognise microformats > (genuine question pertinent to current work)? > Michael, I think your best bet on that would be to use X2V (or the likes) or a JS based approach. I know on some Trio's you can download converted hCards as vCards through X2V and then add the vCard to the contacts. I would suppose as long as your device has the ability to download files you would be safe in that regard. There are other phones (yes I'm looking at you, iPhone) that use vCards as a storage method but only allow you to add contacts by hand or though their own proprietary method. That being said I do not know of any current mobile browser/extensions that are aware of uF. Andrew From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Wed Jan 2 14:45:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Wed Jan 2 14:46:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Multi-word tagging In-Reply-To: <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <63OU0TXrwtdHFwa5@pigsonthewing.org.uk> <1198980572.8054.184.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >+ can indicate a space, but doesn't always. Which means you can't >necessarily relate a tag on Wikipedia, say, to a tag on flickr or >delicious. Which is a pity. I suppose that horse has bolted, though. :-( -- Andy Mabbett From mdagn at spraci.com Wed Jan 2 20:33:16 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Wed Jan 2 20:46:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices WAS: A further possiblesolution to the "abbr" accessibility issue References: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> > I think your best bet on that would be to use X2V (or the likes) or a > JS based approach. unless you are only aiming at a relatively small number of early adopters forget about using javascript on phones using the browsers they come with. Only the latest models are likely to have much chance of being able to use javascript client-side. Quite a lot of phones in recent years appear to have some (limited) support for iCal/vCard ... so online conversion tools or server-based tools may be the only practical way to go until phones with better browsers which include support for stuff like javascript reach consumer pricing levels and become more popular. > I know on some Trio's you can download converted > hCards as vCards through X2V and then add the vCard to the contacts. I > would suppose as long as your device has the ability to download files > you would be safe in that regard. There are other phones (yes I'm > looking at you, iPhone) that use vCards as a storage method but only > allow you to add contacts by hand or though their own proprietary > method. That being said I do not know of any current mobile I thought the iPhone would be better than that.. but I haven't seen one yet. I was always somewhat dismayed at the lack of support for transferring contacts/events/etc in any standard formats on many mobile devices .. I can't see the point of having something like a calendar on my phone if I am expected to re-enter everything by hand .. I (and I assume most people) couldn't be bothered doing that, so such a calendar ends up being nothing more than a waste of space! From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 04:29:34 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 04:30:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] PD wording: inconsistency between wiki and blog Message-ID: The wording: One way to address some of these concerns is for individual contributors to decide for themselves if they'd like to put their own individual contributions to the wiki, mailing lists, blog, and IRC channel into the public domain. [...] If enough contributors eventually support this... on: would seem to be at odds with: Editors will [...] remove past contributions from users who have indicated that preference. Starting February 1st, primary editors and authors of pages should start cleaning microformats.org wiki pages created before today of non-public-domain content [...] When all pages are new or cleaned, the admins will move the text of the CC-PD license to the global footer on the wiki, thus indicating that the contents of the entire wiki is in the public domain. on: -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 04:33:57 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 04:35:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices In-Reply-To: <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> References: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> Message-ID: <05r3nKt1YNfHFwKj@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN>, Michael MD writes >Quite a lot of phones in recent years appear to have some (limited) support >for iCal/vCard ... so online conversion tools or server-based tools may be >the only practical way to go until phones with better browsers which include >support for stuff like javascript reach consumer pricing levels and become >more popular. A version of Opera, "Opera Mini": is available for some mobile devices - it is both free and good. Perhaps the way forward is to lobby for such third-party add-ons to offer better features, such as uF support, and hope the device makers will then play catch-up with their own software. >I thought the iPhone would be better than that.. but I haven't seen one yet. >From the reviews I've read, I'm not surprised. >I was always somewhat dismayed at the lack of support for transferring >contacts/events/etc in any standard formats on many mobile devices .. I >can't see the point of having something like a calendar on my phone if I am >expected to re-enter everything by hand .. I (and I assume most people) >couldn't be bothered doing that, so such a calendar ends up being nothing >more than a waste of space! I can't even copy plain text from web pages using the native browser on my Nokia N95; nor for that matter, with Opera Mini - though I have more confidence in the ability being added to the latter. I do, though, synch my calendar with Outlook's calendar, which I use on my desktop PC (and could also synch it with my Lotus Notes' calendar, at work, except all my colleagues have access to that..!) -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Thu Jan 3 04:57:28 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Thu Jan 3 04:57:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Multi-word tagging Message-ID: <380-2200814312572846@M2W015.mail2web.com> There's often information in the full URL that allows you to place a tag in context, so a clever enough bit of software should be able to figure out that http://flickr.com/photos/tags/stars/clusters/night-sky-longexposure/ is related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars but not to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars_%28UK_band%29 Slightly outside the boundaries of microformats tags, since they only use the last portion of a URL. I wrote something this morning that uses phrases, not single words, as tags. Seems to work reasonably well with Operator. The URL is http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/2008/01/will_an_asteroid_hit_mars_in_j.html if you want to use it as an example or a test case. Jim Original Message: ----------------- From: Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:45:12 +0000 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Multi-word tagging In message <6FBF86C2-23EE-4C11-A5A1-3E7CAC96E578@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >+ can indicate a space, but doesn't always. Which means you can't >necessarily relate a tag on Wikipedia, say, to a tag on flickr or >delicious. Which is a pity. I suppose that horse has bolted, though. :-( -- Andy Mabbett _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Jan 3 06:11:10 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Jan 3 06:11:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] uf on mobile devices In-Reply-To: <05r3nKt1YNfHFwKj@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <1e76a9d60801021444y7ddfb02xb28ef5201fb635c5@mail.gmail.com> <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN> <05r3nKt1YNfHFwKj@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2008 12:33 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <003a01c84dc1$c33582b0$116bacca@COMCEN>, Michael MD > writes > I can't even copy plain text from web pages using the native browser on > my Nokia N95; nor for that matter, with Opera Mini - though I have more > confidence in the ability being added to the latter. Lack of cut+paste is indeed an annoyance with the N95. The good news is that it can handle most vCards or iCals correctly, if delieverd over HTTP. -Ciaran McNulty From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 09:00:08 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 09:01:42 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data Message-ID: One of the microformat principles is (while not expressed in so many words) that we should make life easier for publishers, and load work onto parsers, instead. There are a great many pages where a vCard is, or could be applied to a single data-value (such as a name) in prose, or a table, without further attributes being present; for example: ...as John Smith said... Currently, that would require: as John Smith said which is a considerable amount of mark-up, compared to the actual data, and significantly bloats a page on which many such name appear. Other examples might be: ...lived in Birmingham since 2005... ...developed by Acme Inc. using cheese... It has previously been proposed that: as John Smith said be allowed, but that has been rejected; not least because it might break existing microformats. We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that an hCard with no children: as John Smith said defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up as used above. Still, this again might break existing hCards, and could only apply in one case (for an implied "fn", in this example), so must be rejected. What we could do, though is create a LIMITED NUMBER of sub-microformats (effectively, new microformats based on exiting microformats; I'd call them "nanoformats", if that name was not already taken), using the name and an attribute from one of those exiting microformats as the new sub-microformat name. We would have to be certain that these were limited to cases where vast numbers of the relevant data items are published, and where the parsing rules are unambiguous. Such parsing rules might be: * John Smith (treat content as fn within vCard; apply n-optimisation if appropriate) * John Smith (treat content as fn within vCard; apply n-optimisation if appropriate, use URL) * John Smith (treat content as fn within vCard; apply n-optimisation if appropriate, use e-mail address) Further examples might be for organisations: * Acme Inc. (vcard; with fn, and org, both set to "Acme Inc."; also used with href as above) and for places: * Birmingham (vcard; with fn, and adr's locality, both set to "Birmingham") * Texas (vcard; with fn, and adr's region, both set to "Texas") [In each of the above pair, "vcard-" could be replaced with "adr-" and parsed accordingly.] Note again that I am NOT suggesting that all microformat attributes be combinable in this manner; only a select few, which are deemed necessary and agreed by consensus (perhaps only those shown above, plus a few other adr-children; though the pattern could also apply to other, upcoming microformats). Benefits of using a single, unambiguously-named, class on a singe element for simple, single-value data types will include ease of use for publishers; and more widespread usage of semantic mark-up. -- Andy Mabbett From gl at brixlogic.com Thu Jan 3 09:23:53 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Thu Jan 3 09:24:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that > an hCard with no children: > > as John Smith said > > > Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards standard to tag an entity's name? isn't this an example of hammering unfit-for-hcard content into hcard? To me, if there is value in tagging and extracting entities from narrative Web content, it is a different problem than extracting contact information from a structured Web contact card, and as a result probably deserves its own class attributes, and maybe a microformat if that usage is widespread enough. For now, in the example above the only thing that would make sense to me is an link pointing to an anchor/id in the same/different page that would contain John Smith's contact information. Guillaume From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 10:40:16 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 10:41:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: In message <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that >> an hCard with no children: >> >> as John Smith said >> >Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards standard to tag >an entity's name? Because they're the most appropriate semantics; and because people are already using the long-hand version of hCard to do so. vCard is an electronic business cards standard; hCard is not merely an electronic business cards standard, but already has wider uses. I'm not suggesting a new use of those semantics; I'm merely suggesting a more efficient way of using them. >isn't this an example of hammering unfit-for-hcard content into hcard? Clearly, I don't think so. >To me, if there is value in tagging and extracting entities from >narrative Web content, it is a different problem than extracting >contact information from a structured Web contact card, and as a result >probably deserves its own class attributes, and maybe a microformat if >that usage is widespread enough. Are you suggesting that we use different class-names to mark up the same data? That's directly in contravention of the microformat "principles"; and would put more weight back onto the shoulders of publishers. >For now, in the example above the only thing that would make sense to >me is an link pointing to an anchor/id in the same/different >page that would contain John Smith's contact information. Who says that that information is one the page in question? -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 11:13:40 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 11:14:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] CSS for microformats Message-ID: I've posted a couple of CSS fragments which I use when publishing microformats, and which others might also find useful: Please feel free to reuse or improve them, and to post other examples. -- Andy Mabbett From gl at brixlogic.com Thu Jan 3 11:40:38 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Thu Jan 3 11:40:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > Because they're the most appropriate semantics; I don't agree with that, but I'm not going to argue about it. > and because people are already using the long-hand version of hCard to > do so. > > vCard is an electronic business cards standard; hCard is not merely an > electronic business cards standard, but already has wider uses. Ok, I didn't know that. I'm really just raising a warning. I can think of at least one discussion here (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-November/010974.html) that was arguing how one of the wider uses of hCard, particular for microformatting narrative content might not be actually a publisher's best practice. In addition, my experience in other communities is that favoring reuse over semantic precision can result in very difficult machine processing (due to disambiguation requirements), which may defeat the point of microformats: reusing the same tag/classname seems good at first, but then people realize that a particular tag/classname's meaning depends on the context, i.e. what other tags/classnames are present, and the processing complexity increases. While microformats are for humans, I see microformats as a way to reduce the costs of "machine reading". If the meaning of a tag/classname is highly context-sensitive, then you may end up building the same "$1M code" that you would have to build if there was no microformat. > > Are you suggesting that we use different class-names to mark up the > same data? That's directly in contravention of the microformat > "principles"; and would put more weight back onto the shoulders of > publishers. No. I don't think that's necessary. I just think that the "John Smith" in your example "...as John Smith said in..." is different data than in "My contact information:
John Smith
Cell: (415) ...". I would tag the "John Smith" in your example as an entity name, a formatted name, a person's name, a reference to an entity, but not as something that is also use for electronic business card. Otherwise, I have to look at the context to understand what I'm really supposed to do with this information. For instance, a software like tail will have to disambiguate between vcards that are merely a person name (and are not very valuable in my opinion to export to an address book) and vcards, which actually carry contact information. In other words, my opinion is that a vcard implies a named entity, but a named entity does not imply a vcard. In other words, I would be perfectly happy to simply microformat "...as John Smith said in..." as "... as John Smith said in...". I don't see the value of prefixing fn and n by vcard. I'm probably missing something though, if so, let me know. > > > Who says that that information is one the page in question? > I assume you mean "on the page in question". I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that if it is not there, then the "John Smith" in "... as John Smith said in..." is not a contact card, but if there is such contact information for this person somewhere else on the page, or on a different page, then an "... as John Smith said in..." is what would make sense to me. Guillaume From pmw57 at xtra.co.nz Thu Jan 3 13:07:59 2008 From: pmw57 at xtra.co.nz (Paul Wilkins) Date: Thu Jan 3 13:08:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 6:00 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > There are a great many pages where a vCard is, or could be applied to a > single data-value (such as a name) in prose, or a table, without further > attributes being present; for example: > > ...as John Smith said... > > Currently, that would require: > > as John Smith > said > > which is a considerable amount of mark-up, compared to the actual data, > and significantly bloats a page on which many such name appear. > > Other examples might be: > > ...lived in Birmingham since 2005... > > ...developed by Acme Inc. using cheese... What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside an hcard? as John Smith said -- Paul Wilkins From martin at weborganics.co.uk Thu Jan 3 13:44:37 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Thu Jan 3 13:42:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello Paul, Andy... On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: > What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside > an hcard? > as John Smith said You could wrap it in item: John Smith would the class-include work then? Martin From martin at weborganics.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:08:11 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Thu Jan 3 14:05:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1199398091.22931.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 21:44 +0000, Martin McEvoy wrote: > You could wrap it in item: > > > John Smith > > > would the class-include work then? Operator and Tails don't have any issues with wrapping fn in an Item and using the class include http://weborganics.co.uk/files/test.html x2v on the other hand chokes... er may need some "tweeking" to get it to work. Thanks Martin From brian.suda at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 14:19:58 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Thu Jan 3 14:20:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <1199398091.22931.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1199398091.22931.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <21e770780801031419g260d3d9aj940203e84f0a8c18@mail.gmail.com> On 03/01/2008, Martin McEvoy wrote: > On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 21:44 +0000, Martin McEvoy wrote: > > You could wrap it in item: > > > > > > John Smith > > > > > > would the class-include work then? > > Operator and Tails don't have any issues with wrapping fn in an Item and > using the class include > > http://weborganics.co.uk/files/test.html > > > x2v on the other hand chokes... er may need some "tweeking" to get it to > work. --- this is an issue with the description of the include pattern. X2V will only look at encodings that are children of an ID, not at the same level. The following should work because it will find the node with the ID and then find FN as a child: John Smith If we want to continue this conversation, it should be done on the dev-list -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 14:55:36 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 14:56:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Martin McEvoy writes >On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: >> What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside >> an hcard? >> as John Smith said > >You could wrap it in item: > > >John Smith > >would the class-include work then? That seems to be more bloated than the problem it sets out to solve... -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 15:04:14 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 15:05:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: In message <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com>, Guillaume Lebleu writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Because they're the most appropriate semantics; >I don't agree with that, but I'm not going to argue about it. >> and because people are already using the long-hand version of hCard >>to do so. >> >> vCard is an electronic business cards standard; hCard is not merely >>an electronic business cards standard, but already has wider uses. >Ok, I didn't know that. The hCard spec says that: hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for representing people, companies, organizations, and places, using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426) properties and values note that's NOT: hCard is a 1:1 representation of [a] vCard... For clarity, the former can be distilled to: hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, and places >In addition, my experience in other communities is that favoring reuse >over semantic precision can result in very difficult machine processing >(due to disambiguation requirements) [...] I don't think my proposal, or the use outlined above, reduces semantic precision. Note also that the *only* required property for an hCard is "fn". >I just think that the "John Smith" in your example "...as John Smith >said in..." is different data than in "My contact information: >
John Smith
Cell: (415) ...". [...] No. It *is* the same data. That's the crux of the matter. >In other words, I would be perfectly happy to simply microformat "...as >John Smith said in..." as "... as John Smith >said in...". I don't see the value of prefixing fn and n by vcard. > >I'm probably missing something though, if so, let me know. That the classes "fn" and/or "n" might already be used, with different (or no) semantic meaning, to style the page in question? -- Andy Mabbett From martin at weborganics.co.uk Thu Jan 3 15:45:53 2008 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Thu Jan 3 15:43:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: <18050cf90801031307n338253fcnd269ebe61a7dda3c@mail.gmail.com> <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1199403953.23630.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 22:55 +0000, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <1199396677.22696.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>, Martin > McEvoy writes > > >On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 10:07 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: > >> What if the include pattern could be used without having to be inside > >> an hcard? > >> as John Smith said > > > >You could wrap it in item: > > > > > >John Smith > > > >would the class-include work then? > > That seems to be more bloated than the problem it sets out to solve... That was my thought too, not really any point :), good to cover the possibilities though? Martin > From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Thu Jan 3 16:07:15 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Thu Jan 3 16:07:29 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: On 3 Jan 2008, at 23:04, Andy Mabbett wrote: > For clarity, the former can be distilled to: > > hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, > and > places > Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general enough to cover those cases? It would be handy to have a general method for preserving the semantics of the tag (http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq? name=rs) when converting TEI documents to HTML for delivery over the web. Particularly the contents of the type attribute, which identifies what class of thing we are referencing. Very useful when digitising historical manuscripts, diaries and letters, for example. In the past we've converted to HTML links and left it to the reader to work out whether we're referring to a person, a place or a ship. For example, the links in this letter that we digitised years ago with TEI: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/DisplayDocument.cfm?ID=110 Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 16:34:35 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 16:35:42 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <4IgkboDb8XfHFwo9@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Jim O'Donnell writes >> For clarity, the former can be distilled to: >> >> hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, >>and >> places >Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names >of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be >given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general >enough to cover those cases? I think ships are an edge-case for hCard. For books, plays and films, I would think that's a job for a "citation" microformat, once we have one (and one is surely needed). [One could argue that a physical copy of a book could have an hCard, with an extended-address of "Shelf 54, Floor 3, Anytown Library"; but that's really stretching the logic.] As for "pretty much anything", I'll leave that for others to decide ;-) I'm not familiar with TEI: "a consortium which collectively develops and maintains a standard for the representation of texts in digital form. Its chief deliverable is a set of Guidelines which specify encoding methods for machine-readable texts, chiefly in the humanities, social sciences and linguistics. - what does it have to teach us? -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jan 3 16:44:59 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jan 3 16:46:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentative proposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <+GEFYZELGYfHFwZx@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Jim O'Donnell writes >Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names >of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be >given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general >enough to cover those cases? > >It would be handy to have a general method for preserving the >semantics of the tag (http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq? >name=rs) P.S. Having re-read the cited page, I see that the format is: Joe Smith and (I presume): War and Peace Since there are type delimiters, I would say that these parallel: Joe Smith and the hypothetical: War and Peace In other words: rs-person -> hcard-fn rs-book -> hbook-fn Though TEI allows any string as a value for "type", and microformats require pre-defined "type" equivalents. -- Andy Mabbett From gl at brixlogic.com Thu Jan 3 17:31:41 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Thu Jan 3 17:31:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: References: <477D1A29.10202@brixlogic.com> <477D3A36.7030300@brixlogic.com> Message-ID: <477D8C7D.108@brixlogic.com> Andy Mabbett wrote: > > The hCard spec says that: > > hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for representing > people, companies, organizations, and places, using a 1:1 > representation of vCard (RFC2426) properties and values > > note that's NOT: > > hCard is a 1:1 representation of [a] vCard... > > For clarity, the former can be distilled to: > > hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, and > places > I know, but I still think there is a sweet spot for hCard (portable friends list, distributed address book with personal electronic cards, anything use case that involves exchange of contact info of some sort), and still think that microformatting narrative content with hCard where there is no contact info and where people, organizations, and places' names are only used as references/identifiers is outside of that sweet spot. If there is no such sweet spot, then why excluding ships? they do have a name, location and contact info. Another argument is that: if we microformat all people's names with hCard, then, if I want to style my actual electronic card from mere people's names/references/identifiers mentioned in my blog posts, I will have to wrap the hCard used for electronic cards into an element with a new classname to communicate precise meaning. So, IMO, I do lose semantic meaning by widening the use of hCard beyond its sweet spot. But I won't argue with the spec. So, case closed AFAIC. >> That the classes "fn" and/or "n" might already be used, with different >> (or no) semantic meaning, to style the page in question? >> >> Sorry if this is not really the point of the discussion, but what I'm reading here is that classname "fn" may have different meaning if used outside of an element of class "vcard". Saying this is to me equivalent to saying the "vcard" classname syntax is syntactic sugar for the concept of a namespace (as is "vcard-fn"). My understanding was that the concept of namespace, not just its xml syntax, was an antipattern in microformats. Am I mistaken? Re: styling, I believe I can use (at least in Firefox): .hcard .fn { ... } to specifically style the element of class fn found in an element of class hcard, and: .fn { ... } to specifically style elements of class fn, which do not appear within an element of class hcard. Guillaume From ryan at ryancannon.com Thu Jan 3 18:07:04 2008 From: ryan at ryancannon.com (Ryan Cannon) Date: Thu Jan 3 18:07:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <200801032206.m03M66JD022484@microformats.org> Message-ID: Andy Mabbett wrote: > We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that > an hCard with no children ... defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up > as used above. I wrote about this more than a year ago[1] and created some wiki pages with examples: * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-examples * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-brainstorming It never got very much traction. The goal is to make it more quick and easy to publish and capture the "personitude" (if you will) of a name and link. Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > Why use the semantics of an electronic business cards standard to tag an > entity's name? Because that's what we've done in parts of hAtom[2], hresume[3] and probably others since I've been more or less inattentive to this list. The largest problem we have to deal with is one Brian Suda's criticism of the idea[4]. Andy's solution begins where this discussion left off, but there already has been some work done here. [1]: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/0073 46.html [2]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema [3]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Schema [4]: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-December/0075 59.html -- Ryan Cannon Application Developer National Football League http://ryancannon.com/ From John at eazytiger.net Fri Jan 4 02:13:05 2008 From: John at eazytiger.net (John Holt) Date: Fri Jan 4 02:16:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hListing for eCommerce Message-ID: Hi there, We've just started to add microformats to our eCommerce system, and myself and another designer have gone through the hlisting spec and applied it to the product information that our system is already displaying. I was hoping that we could post the html that we're using and get some feedback to ensure that we're using hlisting as it's defined at the moment, and also hopefully to help the format along with a discussion on its usage on ecommerce sites. The following code is used on a category page, where a number of related products will be displayed, so our thought was that this was a single listing with many 'items', and so would only require a single 'lister'. It also seemed to make sense to us that 'photo', 'fn', 'description' and 'price' were a subset of each 'item' - although the spec wasn't too clear on whether this was how the schema is intended. We've also tried to include additional, relevant microformats, so we've tagged each item with its category name, used the currency microformat for the price, and used vcard for the lister. thanks for any comments, john

Company Name

From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Jan 4 03:02:33 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Jan 4 03:04:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: References: <200801032206.m03M66JD022484@microformats.org> Message-ID: <9c0lepIJJhfHFwpS@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , Ryan Cannon writes >Andy Mabbett wrote: >> We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that >> an hCard with no children ... defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up >> as used above. > >I wrote about this more than a year ago[1] and created some wiki pages with >examples: > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-examples > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-brainstorming So you did - I even replied on -brainstorming. (I wish I could remember what happened to my memory!) As explained in my original post in this thread, I now think that the specific suggestion to use "vcard-with-no-children" is unworkable. >The largest problem we have to deal with is one Brian Suda's criticism of >the idea Aside from Brian's issues with your specific example, his key comment seemed to be: Either #1 you are trying to save bytes (which IMHO is not a good reason) or #2 you are trying to make publishing easier... so if we are going to work under the assumption of #2 lets, try to avoid the whole "HTML Bloat" discussion. While I think bloat *is* an issue (more specifically, a disincentive to publishers to use microformats), I thinks that the two go hand in hand, and that this proposal does address his latter point, of ease of publishing. -- Andy Mabbett From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Fri Jan 4 03:10:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Fri Jan 4 03:11:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hListing for eCommerce In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2MDnqgJUQhfHFwIF@pigsonthewing.org.uk> In message , John Holt writes > Designer Wood Veneer Lamp Table in >Wenge
Dimensions 50W x 50D x 50H cm Other points not withstanding, you might like to look at, and contribute to, work on the proposed "measurement" microformat: and seek out recent discussion of that in the mailing list archives: -- Andy Mabbett From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jan 4 03:59:40 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jan 4 05:51:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal: Sub-microformats to streamline common microformat patterns for simple data In-Reply-To: <9c0lepIJJhfHFwpS@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <200801032206.m03M66JD022484@microformats.org> <9c0lepIJJhfHFwpS@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20801040359h5f5145c4jbbed71f92dbd29c6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 6:02 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message , Ryan Cannon > writes > > > >Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> We could simply declare, in the manner of implied-n-optimisation, that > >> an hCard with no children ... defaults to the equivalent of the full mark-up > >> as used above. > > > >I wrote about this more than a year ago[1] and created some wiki pages with > >examples: > > > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-examples > > * http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied-brainstorming > > So you did - I even replied on -brainstorming. (I wish I could remember > what happened to my memory!) > > As explained in my original post in this thread, I now think that the > specific suggestion to use "vcard-with-no-children" is unworkable. > > > >The largest problem we have to deal with is one Brian Suda's criticism of > >the idea > > Aside from Brian's issues with your specific example, his key comment > seemed to be: > > Either #1 you are trying to save bytes (which IMHO is not a good > reason) or #2 you are trying to make publishing easier... so if > we are going to work under the assumption of #2 lets, try to > avoid the whole "HTML Bloat" discussion. > > While I think bloat *is* an issue (more specifically, a disincentive to > publishers to use microformats), I thinks that the two go hand in hand, > and that this proposal does address his latter point, of ease of > publishing. For what's worth, I think something along the lines of what Andy & Ryan C. are discussing here is a good idea, though I'm loath to get in a pissing match about "vcard fn" again. Let me quote here something from a friend (who's had a fair bit of success in small startups over the last few years) in response to my question why he wasn't using XFN + hCard for a project: | The biggest problem with microformats is that nobody gets it. | If I tell a programmer its an XML vocabulary, then he says "gotch ya". | If I tell a programmer its microformats, then he says "micro what?" | There's a lot of interest in microformats because its cool, but few are | implementing them because of the learning curve. David Janes is a pretty damned hard sell. Regards, etc... David -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Fri Jan 4 03:49:45 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Fri Jan 4 06:56:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) Message-ID: <380-2200815411494598@M2W027.mail2web.com> I thought about this a bit more this morning, and it sort of creeps into the territory covered by rel-tag too. For instance, the blog post I made yesterday has astronomical names that are being used as tags - '2007 WD5', 'Mars', 'solar system', 'Shoemaker Levy 9' (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/2008/01/will_an_asteroid_hit_mars_in_j.html). Those are all strings that could be marked up, semantically, as the names of things. TEI is a markup language that's mostly used in the humanities for digitising written texts such as books, plays, poetry and letters. In terms of what it can teach us, I guess a lot has been written by the TEI community on how to mark up the structure of a written document eg. how to mark up dates and times, how to mark up names of things. There's a good overview at this URL: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Oxford/2007-02-13-oucs/talk-overview.xml We used TEI-Lite years ago, to digitise an archive of papers relating to the explorer Matthew Flinders. Specifically, we wanted to index papers according to people, places, ships etc. mentioned in those letters. The indexing had to be good enough to recognise that eg. 'The Revd Mr Tyler' and 'Tyler, (Reverend) William' are semantically the same. TEI-Lite is good for this sort of problem. That archive is available in HTML at http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders but the HTML version loses the semantics of the underlying TEI documents, which are hidden away in a database and, therefore, unavailable to the serious researcher. We could open up the original semantic documents by giving links to the XML versions, but it might be useful also to try and preserve the TEI semantics in the HTML documents. There's a post on Semantic Humanities about this problem, but with regard to RDF too: http://semantichumanities.wordpress.com/2006/08/26/when-is-semantic-html-not -important/ Jim Original Message: ----------------- From: Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:34:35 +0000 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) In message , Jim O'Donnell writes >> For clarity, the former can be distilled to: >> >> hCard is for representing people, companies, organizations, >>and >> places >Reference strings, in TEI markup at least, can also refer to the names >of books, ships, plays, films and pretty much anything that can be >given a name. hCard works for people and places, but is it general >enough to cover those cases? I think ships are an edge-case for hCard. For books, plays and films, I would think that's a job for a "citation" microformat, once we have one (and one is surely needed). [One could argue that a physical copy of a book could have an hCard, with an extended-address of "Shelf 54, Floor 3, Anytown Library"; but that's really stretching the logic.] As for "pretty much anything", I'll leave that for others to decide ;-) I'm not familiar with TEI: "a consortium which collectively develops and maintains a standard for the representation of texts in digital form. Its chief deliverable is a set of Guidelines which specify encoding methods for machine-readable texts, chiefly in the humanities, social sciences and linguistics. - what does it have to teach us? -- Andy Mabbett _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Fri Jan 4 06:32:04 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Fri Jan 4 08:31:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) Message-ID: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> I wrote a long-ish reply to Andy's post, but I think it vanished into the mysterious SMTP aether. My sincere apologies if this is double-posted. Re. TEI - it's a markup language used in the humanities to mark up digital versions of printed material - plays, novels, diaries, letters etc. There's a really good overview at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Oxford/2007-02-13-oucs/talk-overview.xml There's a crossover with microformats in that TEI has semantics for describing dates, references to people, places and so on. Also, there's a lot of discussion surrounding TEI on the semantics of printed prose, and the practicalities of marking up the semantics of a document. On the names thing, I suppose I could be tagging something with the name "John Smith", in which case I'd use rel-tag, or making "John Smith" available to be downloaded as a vcard, in which case I'd use hcard. The semantics of "John Smith" haven't changed between those two examples. What I want to do with the phrase "John Smith" has, so the exact microformat I'd use depends on what I want to do with the names in the end, more than their semantics. In the case of historical documents, more often than not I want to build indexes to link documents together. So I want to use place names, references to people, ship names and the names of astronomical objects as tags. For instance, the links to related people on this letter: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/flinders/DisplayDocument.cfm?ID=110 or the links to '2007 WD5' and 'Shoemaker Levy 9' in this blog post: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/rog/2008/01/will_an_asteroid_hit_mars_in_j.html Would that be as simple as using something like Julie and I thought this up when discussing | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a matter of days (like the first BarCamp). | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly not comprehensive), a few of | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two days of reflection | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going to do). They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From evan at prodromou.name Fri Jan 4 14:26:30 2008 From: evan at prodromou.name (Evan Prodromou) Date: Fri Jan 4 14:26:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Montreal CodeFest 2008: Microformats Message-ID: <477EB296.1070709@prodromou.name> I don't know if it's come up before, but CodeFest 2008 in Montreal is concentrating on ?F's. Our previous CodeFest in 2007 concentrated on OpenID, and we added support for the standard to 6 Open Source projects. So, pretty likely we'll see some good code come out of this weekend. If you're interested in participating on-line or in person, see: http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/CodeFest2008 -Evan From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jan 4 14:50:38 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jan 4 14:57:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Montreal CodeFest 2008: Microformats In-Reply-To: <477EB296.1070709@prodromou.name> References: <477EB296.1070709@prodromou.name> Message-ID: <21e523c20801041450x62ecc0e6k49e5af8e691ab23a@mail.gmail.com> Jebus ... 14 hours notice. Would have loved to been there :-( Regards, etc... On 1/4/08, Evan Prodromou wrote: > I don't know if it's come up before, but CodeFest 2008 in Montreal is > concentrating on ?F's. Our previous CodeFest in 2007 concentrated on > OpenID, and we added support for the standard to 6 Open Source projects. > So, pretty likely we'll see some good code come out of this weekend. > > If you're interested in participating on-line or in person, see: > > http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/CodeFest2008 > > -Evan > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From kevinmarks at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 14:50:53 2008 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Fri Jan 4 14:58:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20801040359h5f5145c4jbbed71f92dbd29c6@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160801041450v288876d8h8a924c9dbdd476b2@mail.gmail.com> In semantic HTML, the right way to do this would be to use around the name: Julie so doing Julie which has an implied nickname, and adds the XFN for "my friend" On Jan 4, 2008 2:23 PM, David Janes wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > > The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing information about a > > person on the Web would seem to refute that. > > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles > > "Profiles" is not the problem that Andy & Ryan C. are talking about: > they're talking about using hCard in casual references to people and > places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've coded: > > | My friend Julie and I > thought this up when discussing > | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a > matter of days (like the first BarCamp). > | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly > not comprehensive), a few of > | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two > days of reflection > | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going > to do). > > They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic > information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple > operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. > > Regards, etc... > > -- > David Janes > Founder, BlogMatrix > http://www.blogmatrix.com > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From csarven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 15:10:41 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Fri Jan 4 15:10:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using an external resource for the include-pattern Message-ID: re: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-faq#Q:_Does_include-pattern_support_for_data_outside_of_the_current_page.3F http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern#scope I presume the "ease of implementation" is referring to a *parser* grabbing the data from another resource. As far as marking up a document, I don't see how the "vast majority of use cases" should dictate this and it is certainly trivial to provide a relative/absolute URL in the href (e.g. href="http://www.csarven.ca#hcard") of the document. Can the parsers perhaps store cookies on the client-side and minimize the HTTP requests? I'm not well versed in FOAF but perhaps this is related and I do wonder how it approaches this. I would appreciate it if anyone could point me to the past logs on this stuff. Thanks. -Sarven From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Fri Jan 4 15:19:59 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Fri Jan 4 15:17:19 2008 Subject: natural language hCards (was Re: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats) In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/08 2:23 PM, "David Janes" wrote: > On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > >> The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing information about a >> person on the Web would seem to refute that. >> >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles > > "Profiles" is not the problem that Andy & Ryan C. are talking about: > they're talking about using hCard in casual references to people and > places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've coded: > > | My friend Julie and I > thought this up when discussing > | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a > matter of days (like the first BarCamp). > | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly > not comprehensive), a few of > | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two > days of reflection > | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going > to do). Ah ok, this is what Jeremy Keith refers to as "natural language hCards", wherein you simply markup inline references to people accordingly. He's got some really good examples of this, including mixes of nicknames etc. Brief section on this in hcard-authoring: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Natural_language_hCard which references Jeremy's post on the subject: http://adactio.com/journal/1122/ I've just added a bit more to that section based on Jeremy's real world markup of "Malarkey" in his blog post to illustrate further. > They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic > information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple > operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. That being said, good point, I should markup Julie as such in that blog post. Updated. What really gets people to use more markup in blog posts though, is the little creator/style buttons that often line up just above the top of a blog post editing textarea for creating links, lists etc. What we need is a "person" button (perhaps with an icon similar to the icon next to your username when you are logged into the microformats wiki) which simply inserts the markup for you, or better yet, lets you pick someone from your address book, and then inserts an inline hCard with their name, URL (and perhaps even XFN relationship to them) for you. That little bit of extra markup pales in comparison to the typical prose of a blog post. Perhaps we could ask various blogging tool makers to add such a feature. Similarly for events. I've noted this in the plugins / web-apps sections of hCard advocacy: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-advocacy#WYSIWYG_buttons > Regards, etc... Thanks again as always David, you've raised and clarified good points. Tantek On 1/4/08 2:50 PM, "Kevin Marks" wrote: > In semantic HTML, the right way to do this would be to use > around the name: > Julie > so doing > Julie > > which has an implied nickname, and adds the XFN for "my friend" I'm not really quoting or citing Julie for saying something, so I'm not sure that is appropriate in this case. However, the markup I ended up using is close to what you suggested. Here it is with white-space added for readability: Julie I've added this example to the hcard-authoring natural language hCard section as well. From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Fri Jan 4 15:29:18 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Fri Jan 4 15:26:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Montreal CodeFest 2008: Microformats In-Reply-To: <21e523c20801041450x62ecc0e6k49e5af8e691ab23a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/08 2:50 PM, "David Janes" wrote: > Jebus ... 14 hours notice. Would have loved to been there :-( > > Regards, etc... > > On 1/4/08, Evan Prodromou wrote: >> I don't know if it's come up before, but CodeFest 2008 in Montreal is >> concentrating on ?F's. Our previous CodeFest in 2007 concentrated on >> OpenID, and we added support for the standard to 6 Open Source projects. >> So, pretty likely we'll see some good code come out of this weekend. >> >> If you're interested in participating on-line or in person, see: >> >> http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/CodeFest2008 >> >> -Evan Evan this sounds very promising! Is there some way to remotely participate? Via IRC etc.? I see that it's been added to the events page: http://microformats.org/wiki/events Could you create a separate page for it on the wiki and add in details, perhaps even a list of which open source projects people are working on, so that some of us could offer suggestions remotely? I encourage you to ask the CodeFest 2008 participants to make liberal use of the #microformat IRC channel as well. Thanks! Tantek From gl at brixlogic.com Fri Jan 4 16:15:17 2008 From: gl at brixlogic.com (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Fri Jan 4 16:15:48 2008 Subject: natural language hCards (was Re: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477ECC15.5000100@brixlogic.com> Tantek ?elik wrote: > > Ah ok, this is what Jeremy Keith refers to as "natural language hCards", > wherein you simply markup inline references to people accordingly. I believe Wikipedia calls these "inline hCards", which sounds to me like a good name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Hcard-bday Guillaume From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jan 4 16:42:03 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jan 4 16:48:52 2008 Subject: natural language hCards (was Re: [uf-discuss] web programmers vs web designers and microformats) In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20801041423l192661c7s8e327eafd8b0c57e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20801041642r374c19f8ye53b34ae959f16d2@mail.gmail.com> I think we're all on the same page we're we'd like to see uFs go, more or less. My issue -- re:ing Jeremy Keith, and Kevin's related post a few minutes ago -- is that we're all being terribly clever. But to repurpose a phrase, "there's lots of room at the bottom": I'm interested also in seeing where "Joe" can use this. Not so much, though, that I'm going to get in fights or lengthy arguments about it: my constitution can't handle the stress any more. That's why a lot of my posts have been of an FYI nature rather than argumentative. I'll be up for verbal fights at Foo though ;-) Regards, etc... On Jan 4, 2008 6:19 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 1/4/08 2:23 PM, "David Janes" wrote: > > > On Jan 4, 2008 2:45 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > > >> The fact that hCard is *the* #1 format for publishing information about a > >> person on the Web would seem to refute that. > >> > >> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles > > > > "Profiles" is not the problem that Andy & Ryan C. are talking about: > > they're talking about using hCard in casual references to people and > > places on the web. For example, on your blog, you've coded: > > > > | My friend Julie and I > > thought this up when discussing > > | end of year rituals, and threw it together quickly and roughly in a > > matter of days (like the first BarCamp). > > | We invited a bunch of people (also coarsely brainstormed, certainly > > not comprehensive), a few of > > | whom were actually available to attend, and shared an incredible two > > days of reflection > > | (what did you do) and projection (what are you going > > to do). > > Ah ok, this is what Jeremy Keith refers to as "natural language hCards", > wherein you simply markup inline references to people accordingly. He's got > some really good examples of this, including mixes of nicknames etc. > > Brief section on this in hcard-authoring: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Natural_language_hCard > > which references Jeremy's post on the subject: > > http://adactio.com/journal/1122/ > > I've just added a bit more to that section based on Jeremy's real world > markup of "Malarkey" in his blog post to illustrate further. > > > > They're suggesting that you're much more likely to provide semantic > > information about "Julie" if you were willing to do the simple > > operating of adding (for example) 'class='vcard'" to the A tag. > > That being said, good point, I should markup Julie as such in that blog > post. Updated. > > What really gets people to use more markup in blog posts though, is the > little creator/style buttons that often line up just above the top of a blog > post editing textarea for creating links, lists etc. > > What we need is a "person" button (perhaps with an icon similar to the icon > next to your username when you are logged into the microformats wiki) which > simply inserts the markup for you, or better yet, lets you pick someone from > your address book, and then inserts an inline hCard with their name, URL > (and perhaps even XFN relationship to them) for you. That little bit of > extra markup pales in comparison to the typical prose of a blog post. > > Perhaps we could ask various blogging tool makers to add such a feature. > Similarly for events. > > I've noted this in the plugins / web-apps sections of hCard advocacy: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-advocacy#WYSIWYG_buttons > > > > Regards, etc... > > > Thanks again as always David, you've raised and clarified good points. > > Tantek > > > > On 1/4/08 2:50 PM, "Kevin Marks" wrote: > > > In semantic HTML, the right way to do this would be to use > > around the name: > > Julie > > so doing > > Julie > > > > which has an implied nickname, and adds the XFN for "my friend" > > I'm not really quoting or citing Julie for saying something, so I'm not sure > that is appropriate in this case. However, the markup I ended up > using is close to what you suggested. Here it is with white-space added for > readability: > > > > > Julie > > > > I've added this example to the hcard-authoring natural language hCard > section as well. > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 05:22:12 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 05:23:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] London, England event: BarCamp on "re-use of public sector information" 12 January 2008 Message-ID: Anyone in London fancy going to this, and speaking about microformats? The Office of Public Sector Information, part of The National Archives, is holding a conference to ask re-users of public sector information to shape the future of public sector information re-use. The event is open to anyone interested in public sector re-use and will take place on the 12 January 2008, at the Spey & Ness Rooms, City Inn. "The aim of the web channel is to present public sector information with a commercial value in a user friendly way that will encourage its re-use and simplify its uptake, by improving interaction between departments and end-users. The format of the final channel will have been shaped by the user community contributions through the web channel forum: and this BarCamp 'unconference'. "The event follows the decision to launch a web-based channel as recommended by the Power of Information report that will "improve the Government's responsiveness to demands for public sector information". If you would like to attend the event you can register and shape the agenda by visiting: "The 'unconference' will take place at Spey & Ness Rooms, City Inn, 30 John Islip Street, Westminster, London." I have added microformats to the proposed topics for discussion, even though I shall not be able to attend. -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 06:22:39 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 06:22:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities (was: Tentativeproposal...) In-Reply-To: References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 4 Jan 2008, at 18:29, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> On the names thing, I suppose I could be tagging something with >> the name >> "John Smith", in which case I'd use rel-tag, or making "John Smith" >> available to be downloaded as a vcard, in which case I'd use >> hcard. The >> semantics of "John Smith" haven't changed between those two >> examples. What >> I want to do with the phrase "John Smith" has, so the exact >> microformat I'd >> use depends on what I want to do with the names in the end, more >> than their >> semantics. > > But that's dependent on what *you"* want to do. If you use more > consistent mark-up, then your users, and parsers, can deal with > them as they see fit. > Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I want to do, in terms of marking up content, is determined by how people are going to use the web site. If people want more intelligent searches - 'show me manuscripts written by Captain Cook' - then rel-tag seems like the natural tool for marking up names. On the other hand, if people want more intelligent social networking - 'take me to Andy Mabbett's blog' - then marking up names wth hCard seems like the way forward. I don't see a use case for getting the contact details of Captain Cook. hCard does a specific job very, very well - it enhances social networking. I'm struggling to see, though, how it generalises to marking up the names of all people, living and dead. > For instance, adding a tag doesn't tell a future search engine that > your text is about a person. I think the answer to this is the rel-tag microformat coupled with sensible URLs to give much more intelligent tags. Imagine if the Maritime Museum archives used tags like: There's enough info in the HTML there to allow for some quite intelligent searching. Classes distinguishing between the different types of tag could be added to the links too. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 06:31:41 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 06:31:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) Message-ID: Hello, There are couple of markup examples on the hcard examples page which don't make sense semantically. The URL is http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition where you can see
US home address, for mail and shipments:
123 Main Street
Any Town, CA, 91921-1234
and immediately below it Please use the following address label for
local delivery to my home of mail and packages: 
Mr.John Q. Public, Esq.
Mail Drop: TNE QB
123 Main Street
Any Town, CA  91921-1234
U.S.A.
None of the tags are being used to mark up abbreviations, except maybe for 'US" where the expansion should be 'United States', not 'dom'. Is there a way of setting out these examples using semantic HTML? I'm worried that people, particularly those new to microfomats, will see that microformats.org supports semantic HTML and thus infer that examples, like these, on the wiki are written in semantic markup. These, quite clearly, are not. Cheers Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 06:40:57 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 06:41:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] London, England event: BarCamp on "re-use of public sector information" 12 January 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462B9C0B-86CB-48C7-BF6E-A6E0B1BD2CD0@eatyourgreens.org.uk> This sounds like something I should go to, but I believe I'm busy next Saturday too. If anyone does go, could they write it up somewhere please? Jim On 5 Jan 2008, at 13:22, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > > Anyone in London fancy going to this, and speaking about microformats? > > > > > The Office of Public Sector Information, part of The National > Archives, is holding a conference to ask re-users of public > sector information to shape the future of public sector > information re-use. The event is open to anyone interested in > public sector re-use and will take place on the 12 January > 2008, > at the Spey & Ness Rooms, City Inn. > > "The aim of the web channel is to present public sector > information with a commercial value in a user friendly way > that > will encourage its re-use and simplify its uptake, by > improving > interaction between departments and end-users. The format of > the final channel will have been shaped by the user community > contributions through the web channel forum: > > > > and this BarCamp 'unconference'. > > "The event follows the decision to launch a web-based > channel as > recommended by the Power of Information report that will > "improve the Government's responsiveness to demands for public > sector information". If you would like to attend the event you > can register and shape the agenda by visiting: > > > > "The 'unconference' will take place at Spey & Ness Rooms, City > Inn, 30 John Islip Street, Westminster, London." > > I have added microformats to the proposed topics for discussion, even > though I shall not be able to attend. > > -- > Andy Mabbett > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 08:07:18 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 08:08:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >On 4 Jan 2008, at 18:29, Andy Mabbett wrote: >>>the exact microformat I'd >>> use depends on what I want to do with the names in the end, more >>>than their >>> semantics. >> >> But that's dependent on what *you"* want to do. If you use more >>consistent mark-up, then your users, and parsers, can deal with them >>as they see fit. >> >Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I want to do, in terms of >marking up content, is determined by how people are going to use the >web site. Yes, but you don't know how people are going to use it. >If people want more intelligent searches - 'show me manuscripts >written by Captain Cook' - then rel-tag seems like the natural tool >for marking up names. Suppose I want to know what Captain Cook drank; and that your manuscript includes a letter from Cook to a friend back home, saying "I don't miss much of home, but I could murder a pint of Mrs Hecklethump's famous beer" I need to tell a search engine to find all references to "Captain Cook" near "beer". But I also need to be able to specify that I don't want to know about the vast majority of returns for that search, which are about pubs called "Captain Cook", or the products of the Captain Cook Brewery (yes, ether is one!). So I need to be able to specify that I only want pages which refer to a person called "Captain Cook" - in other words, who has an hCard whose "honorary-prefix" is "Captain" and whose "given-name" is "Cook". [One day, I might also be able to search for "hBeverage" or some such (perhaps a subset of "hRecipe") instead of "beer", too.] That's how using hCard adds re-usable semantics to a person's name, even if that's the only "vcard" data you publish about them. [Aside: If I worked at Google, my 20% would be spent on developing a search engine capable of performing searches, based on microformats, whose "advanced search" allowed the user to search by individual attributes, including those which are implied. Or maybe that would be a good student project. Please don't forget this message, if it leads to you becoming the next Larry Page or Sergey Brin!] >I don't see a use case for getting the contact details of Captain >Cook. >hCard does a specific job very, very well - it enhances social >networking. I'm struggling to see, though, how it generalises to >marking up the names of all people, living and dead. As explained previously, hCard is not /just/ for contact details; it's "for representing people, companies, organizations, and places". That's quoted directly from its spec. And that's how it's already being used, "in the wild". If you want a robot to collect hCard contact details from one or more sites, and add them to your address book; and are concerned that other, hCards exist, with no contact details; then all you need to do is tell it to discard hCards where none of the relevant fields are present. >> For instance, adding a tag doesn't tell a future search engine that >>your text is about a person. > >I think the answer to this is the rel-tag microformat coupled with >sensible URLs to give much more intelligent tags. Imagine if the >Maritime Museum archives used tags like: > > > > >There's enough info in the HTML there to allow for some quite >intelligent searching. Only if you can get everyone to use the same URL structure, and to make all the subjects in their content into links. >Classes distinguishing between the different types of tag could be >added to the links too. Indeed - and the appropriate class, in the latter case, would be "vcard", with "fn, "honorary-prefix" and "given name" around the content as per the hCard spec. Why would you want to invent a new set of classes? -- Andy Mabbett From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sat Jan 5 08:54:34 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sat Jan 5 09:12:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 5 Jan 2008, at 16:07, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I want to do, in terms of >> marking up content, is determined by how people are going to use >> the web site. > > Yes, but you don't know how people are going to use it. > Yes I do. If I'm building an archive of documents related to maritime history, I've got a pretty good idea of how historians and amateur geneologists are going to use it. I don't know what sort of applications people might develop on top of our data, and I think that's where opening up museum collections gets really interesting. >> If people want more intelligent searches - 'show me manuscripts >> written by Captain Cook' - then rel-tag seems like the natural >> tool for marking up names. > > Suppose I want to know what Captain Cook drank; and that your > manuscript includes a letter from Cook to a friend back home, > saying "I don't miss much of home, but I could murder a pint of Mrs > Hecklethump's famous beer" > ...and the text referencing Cook within the letter, or article, is "James Cook" or "the captain of the Endeavour" or simply "James" but not "Captain Cook". > > So I need to be able to specify that I only want pages which refer > to a person called "Captain Cook" - in other words, who has an > hCard whose "honorary-prefix" is "Captain" and whose "given-name" > is "Cook". [One day, I might also be able to search for "hBeverage" > or some such (perhaps a subset of "hRecipe") instead of "beer", too.] > Or, better, you want a search which finds all text tagged as referring to a person whose canonical name is "Captain James Cook." That way, you don't have to worry that your search term needs to exactly match the text, only the tag. In fact, a clever enough search could probably find all tags which are names of people and are close matches to your search term, then find all the documents tagged with those tags. Something like this search I put together for our prints collection: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/prints/browseHeadings.cfm? filter=subjects&node=663 Tagging can handle this if there's a mechanism in place to put some context on the tag - indicate that it refers to a person, a place, a business or whatever. > That's how using hCard adds re-usable semantics to a person's name, > even if that's the only "vcard" data you publish about them. > Yes, but aren't you assuming that Cook's name, including rank, will be present in the text, which won't be the case. Cook didn't sign his letters "Captain Cook". He may well have signed personal letters simply as "James". >> I don't see a use case for getting the contact details of Captain >> Cook. > >> hCard does a specific job very, very well - it enhances social >> networking. I'm struggling to see, though, how it generalises to >> marking up the names of all people, living and dead. > > As explained previously, hCard is not /just/ for contact details; > it's "for representing people, companies, organizations, and > places". That's quoted directly from its spec. And that's how it's > already being used, "in the wild". > Are there any examples where it's being used for something other than social networking? > >>> For instance, adding a tag doesn't tell a future search engine >>> that your text is about a person. >> >> I think the answer to this is the rel-tag microformat coupled with >> sensible URLs to give much more intelligent tags. Imagine if the >> Maritime Museum archives used tags like: >> >> >> >> >> There's enough info in the HTML there to allow for some quite >> intelligent searching. > > Only if you can get everyone to use the same URL structure, and to > make all the subjects in their content into links. > Yes, that's why I'm interested in a lightweight, flexible solution that could be applied to archives in general, not just the holdings of the National Maritime Museum. >> Classes distinguishing between the different types of tag could >> be added to the links too. > > Indeed - and the appropriate class, in the latter case, would be > "vcard", with "fn, "honorary-prefix" and "given name" around the > content as per the hCard spec. Why would you want to invent a new > set of classes? I don't, if hcard will do the job. But I also have to be able to mark up the phrase 'William Hamilton's wife' with the name 'Emma Hamilton', using the same set of classes, to indicate that she's also a person. hcard applies to one very specific subset of reference strings, those which are the exact names of people, but not to reference strings in general. A solution that doesn't apply to all references to people may not be very useful to this particular problem. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From csarven at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 11:10:19 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Sat Jan 5 11:10:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] That pesky abbrevation tag (yet again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as I know, the examples are focused more on the "type"s that are being used instead of semantic markup. I wrote this bit a while ago, perhaps it can be used: http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-examples#Use_of_dl_element I agree examples should be as semantic as possible, however there are many instances where the formats are not bound to any particular element(s) as far as semantics are concerned. For instance, hCard information can be presented in
or or
  • tags. Therefore, it may be more appropriate to suggest that semantic markup should be used in context of the document. -Sarven On Jan 5, 2008 9:31 AM, Jim O'Donnell wrote: > Hello, > > There are couple of markup examples on the hcard examples page which > don't make sense semantically. The URL is > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition > where you can see >
    > US > home address, for > mail and > shipments: >
    123 Main Street
    > Any Town, CA span>, > 91921-1234 >
    > > and immediately below it > Please use the following address label for >
    > local delivery > to my home > of mail > and packages: > 
    > Mr.John Q. Public, Esq.
> Mail Drop: TNE QB
> 123 Main Street
> Any Town, CA  91921-1234
> U.S.A.
>
    >
    > > None of the tags are being used to mark up abbreviations, > except maybe for 'US" where the expansion should be 'United States', > not 'dom'. > > Is there a way of setting out these examples using semantic HTML? I'm > worried that people, particularly those new to microfomats, will see > that microformats.org supports semantic HTML and thus infer that > examples, like these, on the wiki are written in semantic markup. > These, quite clearly, are not. > > Cheers > Jim > > Jim O'Donnell > jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk > http://eatyourgreens.org.uk > http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Sat Jan 5 12:07:51 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Sat Jan 5 12:09:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard to represent simple entities In-Reply-To: <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk> References: <380-2200815414324943@M2W029.mail2web.com> <00CE0169-EC88-4BE3-8E6C-4B8E07CE45C8@eatyourgreens.org.uk> <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk> Message-ID: In message <48329468-2E3F-422F-8288-C6C3634CC158@eatyourgreens.org.uk>, Jim O'Donnell writes >He may well have signed personal letters simply as "James". In which case: James Though presumably your pages would have an introduction, or at elast a heading, giving his name as "James Cook". >> As explained previously, hCard is not /just/ for contact details; >>it's "for representing people, companies, organizations, and >>places". That's quoted directly from its spec. And that's how it's >>already being used, "in the wild". >> >Are there any examples where it's being used for something other than >