From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sun Jun 1 09:55:26 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sun Jun 1 09:55:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Cognition 0.1 alpha 9 Message-ID: <600261F2-1C9B-42D8-9AE7-3D85ED7EAF6D@tobyinkster.co.uk> Dear all, Today is my birthday, and as *my* birthday present to *you*, I present the latest preview release of Cognition. http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ Many of the improvements have been in terms of performance. Cognition is about 10 times faster than it was in alpha 8. This has been achieved by splitting the program into daemon and client processes, in much the same way as SpamAssassin works. (SpamAssassin is another Perl-based parser with thousands of lines of code which had performance problems largely due to initialisation.) Also to help performance, the daemon uses an HTTP cache, and an object cache to avoid re-parsing pages that haven't changed. There have been improvements in compliance with hCard/vCard/jCard (e.g. plural name properties are now supported properly), hCalendar/ iCalendar (fixes for datetime, plus support for http:// xml.coverpages.org/draft-royer-ical-vcard-01.txt) and geo (now supports explicit plus signs used in numbers). Apart from these little tweaks here and there, Cognition now adds almost-complete support for hReview 0.3. (It doesn't support ratings being used within a tag, but does support tags used within a rating.) Reviews can be output as RDF/XML or RDF/JSON using Danny Ayers and Tom Heath's RDF review vocabulary . Download Cognition to try it, or have a play with the slightly dodgy web service here: http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ -- Toby A Inkster From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Sun Jun 1 13:52:44 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Sun Jun 1 13:52:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Practical Web Semantics - Talk at Rackspace Message-ID: <48430C1C.9020401@digitalbazaar.com> Hi all, I ended up giving a Tech Talk at Rackspace at the end of April on Practical Web Semantics. This included discussions concerning basic semantics, Microformats, RDFa, and demos including Operator and Fuzzbot. The overview page is here: http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/en/practical-web-semantics Here are quick links to each section: Practical Web Semantics Part 1 of 4: Introduction to Digital Bazaar http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/talks/practical-web-semantics/part1.html Practical Web Semantics Part 2 of 4: Basic Semantics and Microformats http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/talks/practical-web-semantics/part2.html Practical Web Semantics Part 3 of 4: RDFa Concepts http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/talks/practical-web-semantics/part3.html Practical Web Semantics Part 4 of 4: Demos and Questions http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/talks/practical-web-semantics/part4.html -- manu -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: Dynamic Spectrum Auctions and Digital Marketplaces http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/04/24/dynamic-spectrum-auctions/ From rsteckly at stanford.edu Fri Jun 6 09:08:38 2008 From: rsteckly at stanford.edu (Ronald Steckly) Date: Fri Jun 6 09:08:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] New to Microformats, interested in accessibility applications Message-ID: <37B2AAEB-7DEF-4DAF-A55A-6B5D1EC7DE15@stanford.edu> Dear all, I'm researching microformats and how they help accessibility. Does anyone have any links or examples of Microformats being used to help improve accessibility? Thanks! Ron ____________________________________ Ron Steckly Web Developer, Stanford Archaeology Center Email: rsteckly@stanford.edu Web: digitalcardinal.stanford.edu From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Fri Jun 6 12:31:02 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Fri Jun 6 12:31:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Documentation of machine-data and value-excerption Message-ID: <1D08FAA4-0B3A-4B14-B5D9-B2BEE59C5316@ben-ward.co.uk> Hi everyone, Over the past few weeks I've been making efforts to document some of the greyer areas of microformats and better specify how they behave; machine-data and value-excerpting. Machine data in microformats is where we specify a fixed data format (such as dates and geo), or fixed enumeration of fields (such as telephone ?type? in hCard). In the past it's been rather disparate, but I've now documented it all at http://microformats.org/wiki/machine-data ? Thanks to Toby Inkster who's also made contributions to that page. I hope that makes a useful reference for machine data usage in ?f in general, and also as documentation of how to validly and semantically include such data in pages. People who find recurring issue with some uses of the ABBR-design- pattern should definitely read the machine-data page, as it documents *all* of the currently supported and implemented ways of embedding data in pages, including *but not limited to* ABBR. Which leads nicely into the second part, which is that we're making an effort on the microformats-dev mailing list to specify the parsing behaviour of value-excerption (class="value", known as ?value- excerpting? in hCard). Whilst it was originally just part of hCard's TEL field, it's actually supported in parsers generally. http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-pattern explains the uses and better documents the parsing behaviour. That documentation is ongoing, but since it's already implemented, I hope what we've got so far is useful. Alongside the dedicated page for value-excerption, there's a proper - issues page for the pattern, so if you have bugs or issues to raise with it, please raise them on http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-pattern-issues , then we can move through them in a nicely structured manner. Now that the pages are well structured, wider feedback is encouraged. Please add issues to value-excerpting where you see them, and check the microformats-dev archive (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/ ) for what's already been discussed. Thanks, Ben From pauld at mitre.org Fri Jun 6 10:41:04 2008 From: pauld at mitre.org (Paul Denning) Date: Fri Jun 6 19:14:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] regexp for last path component Message-ID: relTag [1], del.icio.us, and numerous other sites use the "last path component" for the (folksonomy) tag. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/reltag#Abstract Can someone provide a regexp for the last path component? Paul From avazbek at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 02:03:37 2008 From: avazbek at gmail.com (avazbek@gmail.com) Date: Sat Jun 7 02:10:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and WordPress Message-ID: <857adc0b0806070203r48833202hdc9223de267abed3@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I've a WordPress powered blog at http://avaz.blogger.uz and I need some directions to improve it using microformats. I've tried different WordPress plugins but they create complexities in blogging. Ideal one is Sandbox theme for WordPress, but I'd like to know if is it possible to apply microformats to any theme easily. I'm very new to this issue, maybe I'm not understanding the concept of microformats... I don't know. Any help is appreciated. 2008/6/6, Paul Denning : > relTag [1], del.icio.us, and numerous other sites use the "last path > component" for the (folksonomy) tag. > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/reltag#Abstract > > Can someone provide a regexp for the last path component? > > Paul > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jun 7 08:48:41 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jun 7 08:48:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] regexp for last path component Message-ID: <5D9ED69A-EFBC-4A33-893A-40732DAA29F4@tobyinkster.co.uk> Paul Denning wrote: > Can someone provide a regexp for the last path component? The following Perl-compatible regexp seems to do the trick: /^ [^\#\?]* # Stuff at front (ignore) \/([^\/]+)\/? # Last path component (\?.*)? # Query string (ignore) (\#.*)? # Fragment (ignore) $/x Use the first sub-pattern match as the tag. -- Toby A Inkster From foolistbar at googlemail.com Sat Jun 7 12:51:46 2008 From: foolistbar at googlemail.com (Geoffrey Sneddon) Date: Sat Jun 7 12:52:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] regexp for last path component In-Reply-To: <5D9ED69A-EFBC-4A33-893A-40732DAA29F4@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <5D9ED69A-EFBC-4A33-893A-40732DAA29F4@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <3E363F20-7F2D-4E58-8CBF-5288247520F8@googlemail.com> On 7 Jun 2008, at 16:48, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Paul Denning wrote: > >> Can someone provide a regexp for the last path component? > > > The following Perl-compatible regexp seems to do the trick: > > /^ > [^\#\?]* # Stuff at front (ignore) > \/([^\/]+)\/? # Last path component > (\?.*)? # Query string (ignore) > (\#.*)? # Fragment (ignore) > $/x > > Use the first sub-pattern match as the tag. That seems to fall apart on "http://example.com" and "http://example.com/foo// ". I tried to throw something together earlier: I couldn't manage without initially breaking it up into scheme/authority/path/query/ fragment, after which the following worked fine (on the path alone): / \/([^\/\?\#]+)\/* $/x -- Geoffrey Sneddon From supercanadian at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 11:29:30 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Sun Jun 8 11:29:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and WordPress In-Reply-To: <857adc0b0806070203r48833202hdc9223de267abed3@mail.gmail.com> References: <857adc0b0806070203r48833202hdc9223de267abed3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0806081129x160960cbvf568f5657ec0eff7@mail.gmail.com> Hello, On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 2:03 AM, wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've a WordPress powered blog at http://avaz.blogger.uz and I need > some directions to improve it using microformats [,,,] > ...I'd like to know if is it possible > to apply microformats to any theme easily. Depends on what you mean by "easy". You could add Microformats by editing the WordPress them you are using. Or you could write hooks, via the WordPress add_filter() or add_action() functions (if you are writing a WordPress plugin) and add Microformats via that. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ From glenn.jones at madgex.com Tue Jun 10 09:34:44 2008 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Tue Jun 10 09:34:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Twitter changes Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0202E552@MOBY.Clarence.local> Is there anyone on the list from Twitter or anyone who known's the guys at twitter. They have change the sites Html and the class "hentry" for a post is now "hentry_hover". Which has broken the hAtom listings. This is probably not their biggest issue at the moment, but it a bit of a shame. Quick fix - class="hentry hentry_hover" maybe Glenn From ameer1234567890 at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 12:38:54 2008 From: ameer1234567890 at gmail.com (Ameer Dawood) Date: Tue Jun 10 12:39:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Twitter changes In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0202E552@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF0202E552@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <19abcbf20806101238x6b27a17drec34b6ecc05a5d6f@mail.gmail.com> I just checked my twitter timeline and it seems to be fine as of now. Ameer From contact at paulshen.name Mon Jun 16 22:01:12 2008 From: contact at paulshen.name (Paul Shen) Date: Mon Jun 16 22:01:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats "Zen Garden" project? Message-ID: <48574518.7040300@paulshen.name> Hey all, I'm new to this community but I'd like to contribute to the advancements of a semantic web. Please don't bash on any of my noob mistakes :) I was browsing the to do list and stumbled across the "microformat playground" idea (http://microformats.org/wiki/zen-garden). However, it seems the wiki page has been untouched for at least 8 months and the links on the bottom point to a broken page. I think such a site would benefit the spread of microformats. Please tell me if such a site already exists. I've cooked up a quick site, temporarily available at http://uf.paulshen.name It runs on CakePHP and is currently using Blueprint for basic typography and grid (temporary.. needs a real design). As of right now, people can register but both registered users and guests and submit xhtml and styles. Entries submitted have a flag and appear on the site only after the entry is approved by admins. All visitors can vote for entries (once per IP). There are more details but everything can be changed (maybe even redesign from scratch). I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in working on such a project, perhaps as a revival of the proposal on the wiki. I'll gladly host and buy a domain if people are interested. Cheers, Paul From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 03:09:54 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jun 17 03:09:57 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats "Zen Garden" project? In-Reply-To: <48574518.7040300@paulshen.name> References: <48574518.7040300@paulshen.name> Message-ID: <21e770780806170309w31bb0399j88d350ceef52666d@mail.gmail.com> On 6/17/08, Paul Shen wrote: > I'm new to this community but I'd like to contribute to the advancements of > a semantic web. Please don't bash on any of my noob mistakes :) --- welcome to the community Paul. > I was browsing the to do list and stumbled across the "microformat > playground" idea (http://microformats.org/wiki/zen-garden). > However, it seems the wiki page has been untouched for at least 8 months and > the links on the bottom point to a broken page. I think such a site would > benefit the spread of microformats. Please tell me if such a site already > exists. --- to my knowledge, no such site exists. If there are broken links, please feel free to correct the wiki, it is a wiki. As well, if you (or anyone) knows of more resources or have ideas, feel free to add them there along with the URLs and info you created. Thanks, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From scott at randomchaos.com Thu Jun 19 05:44:04 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Thu Jun 19 05:44:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats "Zen Garden" project? In-Reply-To: <48574518.7040300@paulshen.name> References: <48574518.7040300@paulshen.name> Message-ID: On [Jun 16], at [ Jun 16] 11:01 , Paul Shen wrote: > Hey all, > > I'm new to this community but I'd like to contribute to the > advancements of a semantic web. Please don't bash on any of my noob > mistakes :) > > I was browsing the to do list and stumbled across the "microformat > playground" idea (http://microformats.org/wiki/zen-garden). However, > it seems the wiki page has been untouched for at least 8 months and > the links on the bottom point to a broken page. I think such a site > would benefit the spread of microformats. Please tell me if such a > site already exists. > > I've cooked up a quick site, temporarily available at http://uf.paulshen.name > It runs on CakePHP and is currently using Blueprint for basic > typography and grid (temporary.. needs a real design). As of right > now, people can register but both registered users and guests and > submit xhtml and styles. Entries submitted have a flag and appear on > the site only after the entry is approved by admins. All visitors > can vote for entries (once per IP). There are more details but > everything can be changed (maybe even redesign from scratch). > > I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in working on such a > project, perhaps as a revival of the proposal on the wiki. I'll > gladly host and buy a domain if people are interested. I did a little work on the initial (now broken) demo, and found there wasn't enough interest in making submissions to be worth continuing. You'll hopefully see better traction. It looks like you're doing things a bit differently, taking submissions of both style sheets and HTML. I think the idea earlier was more to keep the HTML relatively fixed (like CSS Zen Garden) and accept submissions of style sheets and JavaScripts. Even if you keep the HTML submissions, I'd suggest adding JavaScript submissions, as that's where things become really interesting, for me at least. Peace, Scott From robsmith_cpp at hotmail.com Fri Jun 20 06:17:53 2008 From: robsmith_cpp at hotmail.com (rob smith) Date: Fri Jun 20 06:17:57 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat based web search Message-ID: Hello, If I am right, one of the primary objectives of using microformats is to be able to retrieve the desired information from web pages around the world easily and reliably. In connection with this, I'd like to know which all search engines support the "microformat based web search". In other words, how do I do a "microformat based web search" using a search engine like google/yahoo/technorati? e.g. how do I query for all events happening around the world on July 16, 2008? Thanks, Rob _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i?m Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving From danbri at danbri.org Fri Jun 20 06:31:42 2008 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Fri Jun 20 06:31:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat based web search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485BB13E.7020309@danbri.org> rob smith wrote: > Hello, > > If I am right, one of the primary objectives of using microformats is to be able to retrieve the desired information from web pages around the world easily and reliably. > > In connection with this, I'd like to know which all search engines support the "microformat based web search". In other words, how do I do a "microformat based web search" using a search engine like google/yahoo/technorati? e.g. how do I query for all events happening around the world on July 16, 2008? Not a direct answer, but you might look into SearchMonkey from Yahoo (this decorates search results page with custom info from microformats and rdf); or at Google's Social Graph API, which is focussed more on identity reasoning about people identified in different ways, described in xfn and foaf. hope this helps, Dan -- http://danbri.org/ From andr3.pt at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 07:07:35 2008 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Fri Jun 20 07:07:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat based web search In-Reply-To: <485BB13E.7020309@danbri.org> References: <485BB13E.7020309@danbri.org> Message-ID: If you want to try it yourself on Yahoo! Search use the keyword searchmonkeyid:com.yahoo.uf. in your searches, like: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=searchmonkeyid%3Acom.yahoo.uf.hcard+%22Andr%C3%A9+Lu%C3%ADs%22&ei=UTF-8&y=Search&xargs=0&pstart=1&b=11 If you're curious, here's the number of results it returns for each format: 1. hCard ? 1,150,000,000 pages (!!!!!) 2. hCalendar ? 84,700,000 pages 3. hReview ? 43,300,000 pages 4. hAtom ? 304,000,000 pages 5. hCalendar ? 261,000,000 pages Cheers, -- Andr? Lu?s http://andr3.net On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Dan Brickley wrote: > rob smith wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> If I am right, one of the primary objectives of using microformats is to >> be able to retrieve the desired information from web pages around the world >> easily and reliably. >> >> In connection with this, I'd like to know which all search engines support >> the "microformat based web search". In other words, how do I do a >> "microformat based web search" using a search engine like >> google/yahoo/technorati? e.g. how do I query for all events happening around >> the world on July 16, 2008? > > Not a direct answer, but you might look into SearchMonkey from Yahoo (this > decorates search results page with custom info from microformats and rdf); > or at Google's Social Graph API, which is focussed more on identity > reasoning about people identified in different ways, described in xfn and > foaf. > > hope this helps, > > Dan > > -- > http://danbri.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Jun 20 07:24:13 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Jun 20 07:24:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat based web search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On [Jun 20], at [ Jun 20] 7:17 , rob smith wrote: > Hello, > > If I am right, one of the primary objectives of using microformats > is to be able to retrieve the desired information from web pages > around the world easily and reliably. > > In connection with this, I'd like to know which all search engines > support the "microformat based web search". In other words, how do I > do a "microformat based web search" using a search engine like > google/yahoo/technorati? e.g. how do I query for all events > happening around the world on July 16, 2008? Hi Rob, I'm not aware of any way to do this in Google. Here's the search in Yahoo: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=searchmonkeyid%3Acom.yahoo.uf.hcalendar+%222008-07-16%22 Technorati's microformats search is currently "back in the oven to bake some more," but if it were working, I think that search would be something like this: http://kitchen.technorati.com/event/search/%222008-07-16%22 Eventful is also pulling in hCalendar events, which you can search by date like so: http://eventful.com/denver/events?t=2008071800-2008071823 All of that said, I'm not sure I'd call global search one of the primary objectives of microformats. For me it's much more important that I be able to reuse information on a page I've already found, which I can already do well enough with plain text searches. There's definitely a lot of potential to be able to do complex searches, e.g. events in the next month within 50 miles of Denver, CO with attendees whose job title includes "web" and who work at organizations with URLs including blog posts within the past month with "microformat" in the title. And that's theoretically possible with existing microformats. But that's also just a first step. The really interesting stuff, for me at least, happens after you find that data and begin to use it in new ways. Peace, Scott From andr3.pt at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 07:25:28 2008 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Fri Jun 20 07:25:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microformat based web search In-Reply-To: References: <485BB13E.7020309@danbri.org> Message-ID: Ops, actually those figures were gathered for a post I wrote on June 10th!! Right now, 10 days later here the differences: > 1. hCard ? 1,220,000,000 (+70,000,000) > 2. hCalendar ? 89,200,000 (+4,500,000) > 3. hReview ? 46,600,000 (+3,300,000) > 4. hAtom ? 300,000,000 (-4,000,000) ops... > 5. xfn ? 259,000,000 pages (-5,000,000) ops... (last mail had a typo on #5,... t'was xfn) Definitely not the real numbers of all the deployments, but at least is a good way to feel the pulse, no? :) -- Andr? Lu?s From csarven at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 10:28:06 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Fri Jun 20 10:28:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] (in include-pattern) and user-agents Message-ID: Based on this conversation: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080617#l-444 will embed (making a separate request) all of the content from the current document, meanwhile pointing to the identifier. The issue here: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback#Objects_and_Browser_Behavior is actually the proper way is supposed to be handled by the user-agents. (Safari 3/Win, it turns out, is treating the element properly.) I do wonder if is semantically accurate for the use of include-pattern. Part of me is thinking that was originally used partially because it didn't display the current document on non-Safari browsers. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#h-13.3 states: "Most user agents have built-in mechanisms for rendering common data types such as text, GIF images, colors, fonts, and a handful of graphic elements. To render data types they don't support natively, user agents generally run external applications. The OBJECT element allows authors to control whether data should be rendered externally or by some program, specified by the author, that renders the data within the user agent." The key being "to render data types" the user-agents "don't support natively" can be handled with by running an external application. In the case of the include-pattern, we are merely trying to "include" or "refer" to some text/html. The latter is done sufficiently with . Got thoughts? Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca From aji at ebi.ac.uk Fri Jun 20 12:16:21 2008 From: aji at ebi.ac.uk (Amelia Ireland) Date: Fri Jun 20 12:16:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard markup question w.r.t. organizations Message-ID: Hi, What is the recommendation for marking up an organization (or department / group) within an organization using the hCard spec? For example, I want to create an hCard for the Molecular Biology Lab at the University of Cambridge. I presume that something like this would not work: fn, organization-unit: Molecular Biology Lab organization-name: University of Cambridge Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, Amelia. -- Amelia Ireland GO Editorial Office http://www.ebi.ac.uk || http://www.berkeleybop.org Carbon neutral driving: http://www.targetneutral.com/TONIC/index.jsp From michael.kamleitner at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 13:17:19 2008 From: michael.kamleitner at gmail.com (Michael Kamleitner) Date: Fri Jun 20 13:17:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAudio Testing Message-ID: <727040580806201317g1b772c79v5ea72f2f61fc947@mail.gmail.com> hi list, I've recently added hAudio-markup to a audio-related website I'm maintaining ( http://populizer.com/ ). all nice etc., but now I'm asking myself: is there are any hAudio parsers/tools/testing-suites to check if my markup actually works? thx in advance! regards, michael From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Jun 20 13:42:00 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Jun 20 13:47:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCard markup question w.r.t. organizations Message-ID: Basic idea is:
Molecular Biology Lab
University of Cambridge
If this is also part of the lab's postal address, you can combine it nicely with the adr:
Molecular Biology Lab
University of Cambridge
123 Some Street
The drafts for vCard 4.0 (hCard is based on vCard 3.0) include a property called "KIND" to indicate which type of thing the card provides contact information for. e.g. individual, org, group, etc. Cognition will automatically infer the kind of hCard by noticing that the "fn" and "organization- unit" properties are identical, so the kind must be "group". -- Toby A Inkster From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Jun 20 14:32:30 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Jun 20 14:32:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Object param pattern rejection Message-ID: On the abbr-design-pattern page, markup rejections section [1] is the following text: > OBJECT with param value. (requires significant extra markup and CSS > in order to *behave* correctly) Can anyone provide more detail about this parenthetical rejection explanation? I vaguely recall discussion about this, something specific to Safari I think, but couldn't find it in the archive. I've done some quick testing and s seem to render cleanly as block elements, as do s. The latter surprised me, as I didn't expect an empty to render at all. Was that the problem with this proposal or was it something else? I'm wondering if and could be feasible in any context for semantic markup, or if there's just a specific subset of contexts in which we've seen a problem. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern-alternatives#Markup_Rejections Peace, Scott From lunaticsunblog at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 17:09:16 2008 From: lunaticsunblog at gmail.com (Zhang Zhen) Date: Fri Jun 20 17:09:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] (in include-pattern) and user-agents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f10388d0806201709y1bdea702y7b82166a796c1595@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/21 Sarven Capadisli : > Got thoughts? As an aside, I'm not sure if we can do this -- Zhang, Zhen http://www.lunaticsun.com ( in Chinese only ) From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jun 21 03:09:31 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jun 21 03:09:57 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] http://microformats.org/get-started/ Message-ID: It would be nice if http://microformats.org/get-started/ mentioned adding a profile URI. See: http://microformats.org/wiki/faqs-for-rdf#Isn.27t_this_just_scraping.3F http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris -- Toby A Inkster From fberriman at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 06:14:24 2008 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Sat Jun 21 06:14:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] http://microformats.org/get-started/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2008/6/21 Toby A Inkster : > It would be nice if http://microformats.org/get-started/ mentioned adding a > profile URI. > > See: > http://microformats.org/wiki/faqs-for-rdf#Isn.27t_this_just_scraping.3F > http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris > As an additional "things you might like to do next.." point? Can do.. My aim with this section was to try and keep it fairly light and simple in the first instance, rather tan overload it. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From supercanadian at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 10:36:51 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Mon Jun 23 10:36:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <9VQqY2NZb3XIFw05@pigsonthewing.org.uk> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> <84ce626f0806222311o7244d693l9e88e7cfb4beb348@mail.gmail.com> <9VQqY2NZb3XIFw05@pigsonthewing.org.uk> Message-ID: <84ce626f0806231036m41b4b51cibbb0d6d451751fcd@mail.gmail.com> Hey Andy! 2008/6/23 Andy Mabbett : > In message <84ce626f0806222311o7244d693l9e88e7cfb4beb348@mail.gmail.com>, > Charles Iliya Krempeaux writes > >> 1⁄2 > > 1⁄2 > > Regards, > > -- > Andy Mabbett That's a good suggestion. Although you could only use it *exactly* if the fraction, in its irreducible form, had a denominator that was made up of a product of only 2's and 5's. So, these would work: 1/2, 1/4, 3/4, 1/5. 1/20, 1/40, 1/125 (Since 2=2, 4=2*2, 5=5, 20=2*2*5, 40=2*2*2*5, 125=5*5*5) But, for example, this would not work: 1/3 (Because 1/3 = 0.33333333333333333....) And also for example, this would not work either: 3/7. (Because 3/7 = 0.428571428571428571428571428571....) Well... unless we'd make up some way of specifying that a numeric pattern will repeat infinitely, in plain text. (Which is often specified by putting a horizontal line above the repeating numeric pattern. Which is not possible in plain text AFAIK.) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Tue Jun 24 09:03:30 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Tue Jun 24 09:03:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought Message-ID: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> There have been some interesting blog posts by people at the BBC, Mozilla and W3C about Microformats and RDFa in the past two days. The first covers BBC's decision to drop support for the abbr-based design pattern written by Michael Smethurst (who worked with this community on hAudio among other things): Removing abbr-based Microformats from BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/removing_microformats_from_bbc.shtml The second is a response from John Resig, of jQuery/Mozilla fame, here: BBC Removing Microformat Support http://ejohn.org/blog/bbc-removing-microformat-support/ The third is written by Mark Birbeck, who is the guy that proposed RDFa several years ago and is the primary one behind the processing rules and architecture for RDFa: Microformats and RDFa are not as far apart as people think http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/06/microformats-and-rdfa-are-not-as-far.html We've had discussions that parallel the ones above last summer: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000592.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-October/010850.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-October/010859.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-October/010879.html I tend to agree with Edd Dumbill's post: http://times.usefulinc.com/2008/06/24-uf-rdfa Some are moving too quickly to dismiss both Microformats AND RDFa - the two communities are cross-pollinating and there has been significant lessons learned from both approaches. If you're going to blog about this or discuss it - please don't fuel the Microformats vs. RDFa fire by picking sides... it's detrimental to both communities. Like Edd stated in his post, we have a bug that we need to fix (abbr design pattern causing screen reader usability issues) and that has been hanging over our heads for some time now. BBC's decision is a lesson learned but is in no way some sort of sign that Microformats is on it's way out. Thoughts from the community? Anybody else blogging about this? -- manu -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: Blacksburg BarCamp 1.0 http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/05/15/blacksburg-barcamp-10/ From fberriman at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 09:20:19 2008 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Tue Jun 24 09:20:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> References: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On 24/06/2008, Manu Sporny wrote: Hey Manu, Thanks for the links. I'm trying to keep track of all the converastions popping up around this. > > Some are moving too quickly to dismiss both Microformats AND RDFa - the > two communities are cross-pollinating and there has been significant > lessons learned from both approaches. If you're going to blog about this > or discuss it - please don't fuel the Microformats vs. RDFa fire by > picking sides... it's detrimental to both communities. Agreed. I'm so tired of this verses debate. This isn't a war where anyone has to pick a side. They can work along side one another. > Like Edd stated in his post, we have a bug that we need to fix (abbr > design pattern causing screen reader usability issues) and that has been > hanging over our heads for some time now. BBC's decision is a lesson > learned but is in no way some sort of sign that Microformats is on it's > way out. I don't know if you saw, but the discussion is happening over on dev [1] (mostly to get parser writer's feedback in the first instance) on how to deal with the abbr. There's been work by Ben Ward on the machine-data[2] options for a while now. I agree, this is just *one* issue that we've failed to solve so far. [1] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2008-June/000552.html [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/machine-data -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Jun 24 13:25:49 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Jun 24 13:26:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought Message-ID: Manu Sporny wrote: > Anybody else blogging about this? I'm about half-way through writing an article on extending hCard with RDFa. I'll ping this mailing list (and the RDFa one) when I'm done. -- Toby A Inkster From Charles.Belov at sfmta.com Tue Jun 24 14:48:22 2008 From: Charles.Belov at sfmta.com (Belov, Charles) Date: Tue Jun 24 14:48:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <200806242027.m5OKR2og003558@microformats.org> References: <200806242027.m5OKR2og003558@microformats.org> Message-ID: >Message: 8 >Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:03:30 -0400 >From: Manu Sporny >Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as > previously thought >To: Microformats Discuss >Message-ID: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >There have been some interesting blog posts by people at the BBC, >Mozilla and W3C about Microformats and RDFa in the past two days. The >first covers BBC's decision to drop support for the abbr-based design >pattern written by Michael Smethurst (who worked with this community on >hAudio among other things): >Removing abbr-based Microformats from BBC >http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/removing_microformats_from _bbc.shtml I have come to a similar decision. In my case, I will split the human-readable portion entirely from the microformat portion, and the microformat portion will be entirely styled display:none. That applies to machine-intermediated content. I feel it is unreasonable to ask a non-technical person to produce ISO-format dates/times, so microformats do not produce an acceptable solution at this time for marking up meeting announcements. Charles "Chas" Belov SFMTA Webmaster www.sfmta.com From guillaume at lebleu.org Tue Jun 24 15:17:24 2008 From: guillaume at lebleu.org (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Jun 24 15:17:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: <200806242027.m5OKR2og003558@microformats.org> Message-ID: <48617274.3030803@lebleu.org> Belov, Charles wrote: > I feel it is unreasonable to ask a non-technical person to produce > ISO-format dates/times, so microformats do not produce an acceptable > solution at this time for marking up meeting announcements. I agree that only an editor extension would make writing ISO-format date/time practical by humans, which I never felt was compliant with "designed for humans first, machine second". What about the idea of a plain old English microformat ("POEM"?) based on well-known practices in various languages [1], in the tradition of "paving the cows path": these practices are pretty-well established IMO and used by authors in the newspapers, magazines, etc. For instance, in English: October 5, 2004 10/5/2004 5 Octobre 2004 5/10/2004 The locale could be specified locally (lang="en-us") or inherited from the HTML document or a containing div. Granted it would make the parsing more complex, but it would comply with "designed for humans first, machine second". Also, additional class would be required to distinguish the date part from the time part in something like: October 5, 2004 at 6PM Just an idea, Guillaume [1] http://www.ego4u.com/en/cram-up/vocabulary/date/written From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Jun 24 16:54:43 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Jun 24 16:55:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought Message-ID: Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > October 5, 2004 Cognition already supports this as a last ditch attempt at parsing dates - but I wouldn't recommend it get adopted widely. It's too unreliable; too much work to deal with internationalisation; too much work full-stop in languages that don't provide a handy library that takes care of most of the work. -- Toby A Inkster From guillaume at lebleu.org Tue Jun 24 20:08:50 2008 From: guillaume at lebleu.org (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Tue Jun 24 20:08:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4861B6C2.5050606@lebleu.org> Toby A Inkster wrote: > Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > >> October 5, 2004 > > > Cognition already supports this as a last ditch attempt at parsing > dates - Thank you for the attempt. > but I wouldn't recommend it get adopted widely. It's too unreliable; Why is this that requiring that English content writers (I mean only those don't want to use the abbr pattern) to write dates and times in accordance to the existing precise rules of English grammar and publishing style guides (ex. AP stylebook) they know about (or used to know about) is less reliable than asking them to write them twice, one in the format they like and a second time in an ISO format most of them likely don't know about in an relatively arcane syntax? I think it really depends on where our priorities are as a community. If most hCalendar items are destined to be software-generated (including via, say, a TinyMCE plugin) or are added by specialized staff, after the content is authored, I agree with you. On the other hand, if we want actual content authors to be able to add this mark-up, then I think plain old English microformats may be more reliable, and actually more used in the first place, than dark data or RDFa. > too much work to deal with internationalisation; I don't think we need to support all locales at once. I don't know in how many written languages BBC publishes in, but it might be that supporting en-uk and en-us might be enough for a start. Also, one can imagine that Microformats tools could focus on the most common written languages and then expose hooks for others to implement support for other locales. > too much work full-stop in languages that don't provide a handy > library that takes care of most of the work. > True, but again, what are our priorities? making programmers' life easier or making content authors and content readers' life easier? Anyway, there are other problems. Just trying to think outside of the class. Guillaume From mdagn at spraci.com Tue Jun 24 23:11:13 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Tue Jun 24 23:11:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previouslythought References: Message-ID: <000701c8d68a$45920ed0$116bacca@COMCEN> > Guillaume Lebleu wrote: > >> October 5, 2004 > > > Cognition already supports this as a last ditch attempt at parsing > dates - but I wouldn't recommend it get adopted widely. It's too > unreliable; too much work to deal with internationalisation; too much > work full-stop in languages that don't provide a handy library that takes > care of most of the work. > even in those that do there are too many ambiguities... Even in rare cases where you might know what country something is in you still can't be sure that date is written in a way that is common in that country. eg .. here in Australia dd/mm/yyyy is commonly used ... but I also see a significant minority of sites in Australia using US-style mm/dd/yyyy because it is the default setting in their CMS! How would a parser be able to tell which part is the day and which is the month? .... ... getting it wrong would be worse than not getting it at all! of course the ideal long-term solution would be to teach people to write dates more clearly (something like 12th June 2008 or July 8, 2008 is clear enough but the masses need to learn not to use those awful "slash" formats and anything without the year or with 2 digit years) until the use of ambiguous formats can be WIPED OUT we WILL need a version for machines! The former is of course unlikely to happen any time soon ... so machine dates ARE needed .. without them you can say goodbye to hCalendar or anything else that relies on dates! From george.brocklehurst at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 02:23:58 2008 From: george.brocklehurst at gmail.com (George Brocklehurst) Date: Wed Jun 25 02:24:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> References: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <69F14802-9113-4D8E-94D2-EEF2399138CF@gmail.com> On 24 Jun 2008, at 17:03, Manu Sporny wrote: > Like Edd stated in his post, we have a bug that we need to fix (abbr > design pattern causing screen reader usability issues) and that has > been > hanging over our heads for some time now. BBC's decision is a lesson > learned but is in no way some sort of sign that Microformats is on > it's > way out. Is it worth revisiting Tantek's original suggestion of using the object element to represent dates? [1] The idea was to do something like this: January 25 From what Tantek said on his blog, the main reason for not using objects was that they were not well supported in Safari. However, Safari's object support is now much improved: fallbacks are supported and display:inline and intrinsic sizing will work correctly. Safari 2.0.2, which came out in November 2005, was the first version to contain these improvements [2]. It might be that there are other reasons for not using that I've missed (I'm fairly new to the wonderful world of Microformats) and it might be that there's still a significant population of Safari users on 2.0.1 or older, but if not this could be a way forward that gets around the issue. Just a thought, G [1] http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html [2] http://webkit.org/blog/32/webkit-fixes-in-safari-202-mac-os-x-1043/ From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:28:04 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Jun 25 02:28:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: Hello! Apologies for not joining this thread earlier but my machine's been on the flip. Anyway, just wanted to say it was never my / our intention to fan the flames of any uf vs rdfa skirmish. I've posted a follow up note here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/microformats_and_rdfa_and_rdf.s html that hopefully gives a little more context. To be double clear the issue at hand is about the accessibility of the datetime abbreviation design pattern (although I suppose the geo microformat would run into similar problems). It's still possible to use both hCalendar and the abbreviation design pattern on bbc.co.uk. What's been banned is the use of non-human-readable data in the title attribute of the abbreviation element. We do realise that hCalendar can be used without the ADP - but in this case none of the alternatives work for /programmes either. On the ufs / rdfa front I'm sure the two can coexist peacefully. Without wanting to drag myself any further into the mire and without wanting to sound too much like an old hippy I'm also sure that the two communities working together would benefit all. So apologies for any consternation caused. Hope it all works out soon. Michael On 24/6/08 17:03, "Manu Sporny" wrote: > There have been some interesting blog posts by people at the BBC, > Mozilla and W3C about Microformats and RDFa in the past two days. The > first covers BBC's decision to drop support for the abbr-based design > pattern written by Michael Smethurst (who worked with this community on > hAudio among other things): > > Removing abbr-based Microformats from BBC > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/removing_microformats_from_bbc.sh > tml > > The second is a response from John Resig, of jQuery/Mozilla fame, here: > > BBC Removing Microformat Support > http://ejohn.org/blog/bbc-removing-microformat-support/ > > The third is written by Mark Birbeck, who is the guy that proposed RDFa > several years ago and is the primary one behind the processing rules and > architecture for RDFa: > > Microformats and RDFa are not as far apart as people think > http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/06/microformats-and-rdfa-are-not-as-far > .html > > We've had discussions that parallel the ones above last summer: > > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000592.html > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-October/010850. > html > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-October/010859. > html > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-October/010879. > html > > I tend to agree with Edd Dumbill's post: > > http://times.usefulinc.com/2008/06/24-uf-rdfa > > Some are moving too quickly to dismiss both Microformats AND RDFa - the > two communities are cross-pollinating and there has been significant > lessons learned from both approaches. If you're going to blog about this > or discuss it - please don't fuel the Microformats vs. RDFa fire by > picking sides... it's detrimental to both communities. > > Like Edd stated in his post, we have a bug that we need to fix (abbr > design pattern causing screen reader usability issues) and that has been > hanging over our heads for some time now. BBC's decision is a lesson > learned but is in no way some sort of sign that Microformats is on it's > way out. > > Thoughts from the community? Anybody else blogging about this? > > -- manu http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From geoffberger at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 07:01:04 2008 From: geoffberger at gmail.com (Geoff Berger) Date: Thu Jun 26 07:01:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hReview limitations/restrictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are there any limitations or restrictions to using hReview for commercial purposes? The company I work for is looking to use hReview. However, we do not want to use if there are any legal restrictions or if the community would be opposed to it. Thanks -- Geoff geoffberger@gmail.com From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Jun 26 07:09:13 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Jun 26 07:09:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hReview limitations/restrictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Geoff, On 26 Jun 2008, at 15:01, Geoff Berger wrote: > Are there any limitations or restrictions to using hReview for > commercial purposes? > > The company I work for is looking to use hReview. However, we do not > want to use if there are any legal restrictions or if the community > would be opposed to it. All microformat specifications are released into the Public Domain and can be used by any person or organisation without restriction. Many commercial entities are already using microformats on a large scale; Yahoo (who I work for) publish a huge amount of hCard, hCalendar, hReview, hListing, and, err, many more. The very purpose of microformats, to better describe the information we publish in pages, dictates that *everyone* is encouraged to publish with them. Regards, B From Charles.Belov at sfmta.com Thu Jun 26 10:56:35 2008 From: Charles.Belov at sfmta.com (Belov, Charles) Date: Thu Jun 26 10:56:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <200806261402.m5QE27bA018115@microformats.org> References: <200806261402.m5QE27bA018115@microformats.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:17:24 -0700 > From: Guillaume Lebleu > Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart > as previously thought > To: Microformats Discuss > Message-ID: <48617274.3030803@lebleu.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Belov, Charles wrote: >> I feel it is unreasonable to ask a non-technical person to produce >> ISO-format dates/times, so microformats do not produce an acceptable >> solution at this time for marking up meeting announcements. > I agree that only an editor extension would make writing ISO-format date/time practical by humans, which I never felt was compliant with "designed for humans first, machine second". > > What about the idea of a plain old English microformat ("POEM"?) based on well-known practices in various languages [1], in the tradition of "paving the cows path": these practices are pretty-well established IMO and used by authors in the newspapers, magazines, etc. For instance, in > English: > > October 5, 2004 10/5/2004 5 Octobre 2004 5/10/2004 > > The locale could be specified locally (lang="en-us") or inherited from the HTML document or a containing div. > > Granted it would make the parsing more complex, but it would comply with "designed for humans first, machine second". > > Also, additional class would be required to distinguish the date part from the time part in something like: > > October 5, 2004 at class="time">6PM I'd suggest modifying that to not require the computer to parse the date. Something like: October 5, 2004 Hope this helps, Charles "Chas" Belov SFMTA Webmaster From guillaume at lebleu.org Thu Jun 26 11:16:19 2008 From: guillaume at lebleu.org (Guillaume Lebleu) Date: Thu Jun 26 11:16:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: <200806261402.m5QE27bA018115@microformats.org> Message-ID: <4863DCF3.4010709@lebleu.org> Belov, Charles wrote: > I'd suggest modifying that to not require the computer to parse the > date. Something like: > October class="dstartd">5, 2004 > +1: DRY-, POSH- and "humans first"-compatible IMO. Maybe the following may be POSHer and backward-compatible with the existing dstart class name convention? October 5, 2004 Just a thought. G From geoffberger at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 21:33:38 2008 From: geoffberger at gmail.com (Geoff Berger) Date: Thu Jun 26 21:33:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hReview limitations/restrictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9301EAF5-8157-4B37-8592-821BF2974A1A@gmail.com> Hi Ben, Thank you very much for your fast response. To further elaborate, the company I work for charges money to an affiliate for the right to use customer reviews on their personal site. It comes down to this, does using a microformat imply that the content is free to syndicate? Would it be necessary to have a Terms and Conditions stating customer reviews are copy written or something to that degree? -- Geoff geoffberger@gmail.com On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:09 AM, Ben Ward wrote: > Hi Geoff, > > On 26 Jun 2008, at 15:01, Geoff Berger wrote: > >> Are there any limitations or restrictions to using hReview for >> commercial purposes? >> >> The company I work for is looking to use hReview. However, we do >> not want to use if there are any legal restrictions or if the >> community would be opposed to it. > > All microformat specifications are released into the Public Domain > and can be used by any person or organisation without restriction. > > Many commercial entities are already using microformats on a large > scale; Yahoo (who I work for) publish a huge amount of hCard, > hCalendar, hReview, hListing, and, err, many more. > > The very purpose of microformats, to better describe the information > we publish in pages, dictates that *everyone* is encouraged to > publish with them. > > Regards, > > B > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Jun 26 22:52:03 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Jun 26 22:52:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hReview limitations/restrictions In-Reply-To: <9301EAF5-8157-4B37-8592-821BF2974A1A@gmail.com> References: <9301EAF5-8157-4B37-8592-821BF2974A1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Geoff, On 27 Jun 2008, at 05:33, Geoff Berger wrote: > Thank you very much for your fast response. > > To further elaborate, the company I work for charges money to an > affiliate for the right to use customer reviews on their personal > site. > > It comes down to this, does using a microformat imply that the > content is free to syndicate? Would it be necessary to have a Terms > and Conditions stating customer reviews are copy written or > something to that degree? No, using microformats does not imply anything about the licensing of the information. In fact, the rel-license microformat allows you to make it explicit when all rights are reserved. Additional licensing restrictions you may impose apply to microformatted content just as to content without microformats. The microformats specifications themselves are completely free in the public domain. That has no effect on the material published within these HTML patterns. B From info at weborganics.co.uk Fri Jun 27 14:50:52 2008 From: info at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Jun 27 14:51:34 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1214603452.21202.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello Toby On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:25 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote: > I'm about half-way through writing an article on extending hCard > with > RDFa You might like to read this http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html and this http://weborganics.co.uk/articles/show/extending-hcard-using-rdfa may be relevant/helpful towards your article. Martin From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Jun 27 16:00:25 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Jun 27 16:00:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Cognition 0.1 alpha 10 Message-ID: <0213F683-B921-41BA-A6CB-72E7CEF43402@tobyinkster.co.uk> Dear all, I've just released Cognition 0.1 alpha 10. New features of interest to the microformats community: * Experimental support for machine data in class * Support for class="tag" (see my next message) * Support for XFN 1.0. XFN 1.1 has been supported for a couple of versions already, but pages can trigger explicit support for XFN 1.0 (i.e. no "me", "contact" or "kin") by including the XFN 1.0 profile URI. * Add support for "type"+"value" sub-properties for "label" in hCard. * XOXO todo lists * Merged support for xFolk and hReview * In vCard export, include vCard 4.0 compatible "RELATED" properties containing contact relationships gleaned from XFN. For more information, to download or try online: http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ -- Toby A Inkster From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Jun 27 16:03:39 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Jun 27 16:04:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="tag" Message-ID: <04DA6562-7A56-4E11-B05C-D2D2994E9709@tobyinkster.co.uk> It has been documented that rel-tag places significant limitations on authors' choice of tag space. Many popular blogs (in case you doubt the popularity of these blogs, they were all in the top 40 results from a Google search for "blog" at the time of writing) include category links that do not have URIs suitable for use with rel-tag: * http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ * http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/ * http://stephenfry.com/blog/ * http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/ (currently using rel-tag incorrectly) Additionally, authors may wish to use links to searches for terms on Google or various dictionary/thesaurus sites as tags, but these do not typically use URIs suitable for rel-tag. One of the principles of microformats is to build around current behaviours and usage patterns. Microformats involve adding a few class names and rel values to existing semantic HTML; they should not require major overhauls in publishing patterns. Requiring authors to fiddle with .htaccess files (or whatever) to provide themselves with a clean tagspace raises the barrier to entry too high. The alternative: asking them to use a third party's tagspace (e.g. link all their tags to Wikipedia or Technorati or whatever) is unrealistic, and doesn't fit with existing publishing. So I propose an extension to rel-tag. As outlined above, there are many blogs which cannot easily use rel- tag. However, there are also a large number that can, and already do. So any extension to rel-tag has to be completely compatible with the existing specification. Any existing data marked up with several rel- tags should not find that the meaning of their tags has changed under the extended format. My proposed solution is that rel="tag" continues as-is, but class="tag" is introduced as a parallel mechanism for marking up tags. When class="tag" is used, the link text is used as the tag value, subject to value excerption. Like rel="tag", class="tag" will only be allowed on and tags, and not non-linking elements such as , nor invisible elements such as . As per the microformats principles, class="tag" is a use of semantic, meaningful HTML; it is an example of visible metadata; and of course it reuses terminology from rel-tag. Examples: TheTag For backwards compatibility reasons, when both rel="tag" and class="tag" attributes are found on the same element, then the existing rel="tag" parsing rules take precedence. Example: Under this proposal, class="tag" would be allowed anywhere that rel- tag is currently allowed, including hCard categories and xFolk tags. -- Toby A Inkster From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Jun 27 16:11:17 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Jun 27 16:11:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought Message-ID: Martin McEvoy wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:25 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote: > > > I'm about half-way through writing an article on extending hCard > > with RDFa > > You might like to read this > http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa- > in-microformats.html Yep - if you take a look at the comments, you'll see I left one back in March. ;-) > and this > http://weborganics.co.uk/articles/show/extending-hcard-using-rdfa Yes - have read that too. The gist of mine is more about using RDFa to add information to hCards in order to encapsulate information which hCard itself can't represent (height, shoe size, whatever). -- Toby A Inkster From Charles.Belov at sfmta.com Fri Jun 27 16:41:27 2008 From: Charles.Belov at sfmta.com (Belov, Charles) Date: Fri Jun 27 16:41:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> References: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> Message-ID: > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:16:19 -0700 > From: Guillaume Lebleu > Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart > as previously thought > To: Microformats Discuss > Message-ID: <4863DCF3.4010709@lebleu.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Belov, Charles wrote: >> I'd suggest modifying that to not require the computer to parse the >> date. Something like: >> October > class="dstartd">5, 2004 >> > +1: DRY-, POSH- and "humans first"-compatible IMO. > > Maybe the following may be POSHer and backward-compatible with the existing dstart class name convention? > > October 5, 2004 > By George, I think you've got it! Then there is the time issue, including 24-hour vs. 12-hour. So perhaps (with all characters outside the inner spans being optional for human readability): October 5, 2004, 1740 GMT-7 would be equivalent to: October 5, 2004, 5:40 a.m. PDT noting that hhmmampm might be expressed with or without the m, or with n for noon (12n) or midnight (12m). Hope this helps, Charles "Chas" Belov SFMTA Webmaster From info at weborganics.co.uk Fri Jun 27 17:33:51 2008 From: info at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Jun 27 17:34:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1214613231.21403.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 00:11 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote: > The gist of mine is more about using RDFa > to add information to hCards in order to encapsulate information > which hCard itself can't represent (height, shoe size, whatever). Now that is an interesting idea, your article should make good reading. Have fun Martin From fil at rezo.net Sat Jun 28 04:07:09 2008 From: fil at rezo.net (Fil) Date: Sat Jun 28 04:07:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> Message-ID: I'm not a great fan of natural language here. What if I want to write 3l33t (well, not at my age mind you), or punk, maybe use Oktober instead of October cause I'm a (admittedly bad) poet? The human will understand, the computer won't. -- Fil From fil at rezo.net Sat Jun 28 04:00:50 2008 From: fil at rezo.net (Fil) Date: Sat Jun 28 04:15:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="tag" In-Reply-To: <04DA6562-7A56-4E11-B05C-D2D2994E9709@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <04DA6562-7A56-4E11-B05C-D2D2994E9709@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: > TheTag As a CMS (co)author (see www.spip.net), I absolutely agree. SPIP does not constrain the form of URLs, and offers several possibilities (some that use numerical ids like id_tag=1, other that will use a translitteration of words (no accents!), and so on. We use rel='tag' heavily, even embed it in RSS to convey metadata. Toby's suggestion would help us be compliant with ?F in any case, and not only in when the user chooses the "clean URLs" option. -- Fil From danbri at danbri.org Sat Jun 28 04:54:27 2008 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Sat Jun 28 04:54:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> Message-ID: <48662673.7020206@danbri.org> Fil wrote: > I'm not a great fan of natural language here. What if I want to write > 3l33t (well, not at my age mind you), or punk, maybe use Oktober > instead of October cause I'm a (admittedly bad) poet? The human will > understand, the computer won't. Or Chinese? Dan -- http://danbri.org/ From brian.suda at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 05:03:20 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sat Jun 28 05:03:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="tag" In-Reply-To: References: <04DA6562-7A56-4E11-B05C-D2D2994E9709@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e770780806280503k18b2379ela8a6d0b9dc249395@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/08, Fil wrote: > > TheTag > > We use rel='tag' heavily, even embed it in RSS to convey metadata. > Toby's suggestion would help us be compliant with ?F in any case, and > not only in when the user chooses the "clean URLs" option. --- if you take a look at the 'category' property, it works how you are proposing to use 'tag'. Instead of trying to redefine or create new class properties, we should look at existing ones and reuse those instead. There are some rules for using category and rel-tag together, but this proposal is just about extracting the 'tag' value from the node rather than the URL. This is what class="category" does, so i would experiment with that first. Thanks, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 05:05:04 2008 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Sat Jun 28 05:05:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <1214613231.21403.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214613231.21403.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Martin McEvoy wrote: > > On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 00:11 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote: >> The gist of mine is more about using RDFa >> to add information to hCards in order to encapsulate information >> which hCard itself can't represent (height, shoe size, whatever). > > Now that is an interesting idea, your article should make good reading. > Indeed. Let me just ask this to see if we're on the same wave length or if I misundertood something.... this extension would only work on xHTML, right? Or is it possible to use rdfa in html? (I'm not that proficient in rdfa) Cheers, -- Andr? Lu?s From andr3.pt at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 05:03:13 2008 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Sat Jun 28 05:09:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <48662673.7020206@danbri.org> References: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> <48662673.7020206@danbri.org> Message-ID: Abbreviations are an issue as well. If we're trying to markup what people actually publish, remember that not everyone will spell out the month name: October Oct. And other languages, like Portuguese: Outubro Out. This, however, could be handled with , without hindering accessibility. Oct. No? (sorry if this has been discussed. it's hard to keep up with all discussions spanning over the mailing list and the IRC channel) -- Andr? Lu?s On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Dan Brickley wrote: > Fil wrote: >> >> I'm not a great fan of natural language here. What if I want to write >> 3l33t (well, not at my age mind you), or punk, maybe use Oktober >> instead of October cause I'm a (admittedly bad) poet? The human will >> understand, the computer won't. > > Or Chinese? > > Dan > > -- > http://danbri.org/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 05:16:21 2008 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Sat Jun 28 05:16:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <48662673.7020206@danbri.org> References: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> <48662673.7020206@danbri.org> Message-ID: Perhaps we could solve this by changing the value of the abbr title attribute to a different, widely used date format that is both machine and date friendly? Take the JS date format, for instance? On 6/28/08, Dan Brickley wrote: > Fil wrote: >> I'm not a great fan of natural language here. What if I want to write >> 3l33t (well, not at my age mind you), or punk, maybe use Oktober >> instead of October cause I'm a (admittedly bad) poet? The human will >> understand, the computer won't. > > Or Chinese? > > Dan > > -- > http://danbri.org/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From danbri at danbri.org Sat Jun 28 06:16:06 2008 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Sat Jun 28 06:16:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> <48662673.7020206@danbri.org> Message-ID: <48663996.2010302@danbri.org> Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > Perhaps we could solve this by changing the value of the abbr title > attribute to a different, widely used date format that is both machine > and date friendly? Take the JS date format, for instance? Not everyone uses the same calendar. For example there are lot of blogs in Persian/Iranian/Farsi. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Blog ... In these cases, often the machine format (notably Atom/RSS) will use ISO-8601 and suchlike; while the human-facing text will often use a 'local' calendar. I don't have stats handy but I doubt this can be dismissed as a corner-case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#The_relevance_of_the_calendar_today suggests this is also an issue in China. cheers, Dan -- http://danbri.org/ From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Sat Jun 28 07:33:55 2008 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Sat Jun 28 07:34:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: <1214613231.21403.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48664BD3.8050309@googlemail.com> Andr? Lu?s wrote: > this extension would only work on xHTML, right? Or is it possible to > use rdfa in html? (I'm not that proficient in rdfa) It's not possible to use RDFa in valid HTML and adding all the element changes and new attributes necessary for RDFa to HTML is not part of the current proposals for HTML5. If you want to to use RDF in an HTML context, look to eRDF: http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml Note that some of the examples there misuse the TITLE attribute as badly as some of the microformat patterns we've seen. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From ejl at eberian.com Sat Jun 28 09:03:52 2008 From: ejl at eberian.com (Ed Lucas) Date: Sat Jun 28 09:03:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: <69F14802-9113-4D8E-94D2-EEF2399138CF@gmail.com> References: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> <69F14802-9113-4D8E-94D2-EEF2399138CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486660E8.1070709@eberian.com> George Brocklehurst wrote: > Is it worth revisiting Tantek's original suggestion of using the > object element to represent dates? [1] > > The idea was to do something like this: > > January 25 > > From what Tantek said on his blog, the main reason for not using > objects was that they were not well supported in Safari. However, > Safari's object support is now much improved: fallbacks are supported > and display:inline and intrinsic sizing will work correctly. Safari > 2.0.2, which came out in November 2005, was the first version to > contain these improvements [2]. > > It might be that there are other reasons for not using that > I've missed (I'm fairly new to the wonderful world of Microformats) > and it might be that there's still a significant population of Safari > users on 2.0.1 or older, but if not this could be a way forward that > gets around the issue. I'm normally just a lurker here, but no-one has replied, so... Using the object element seems like a very sensible solution. What are the blocking issues now that Safari handles it? I've run a few quick tests and Firefox,Opera, Safari and IE7 seem ok. IE6 won't display the content, but that may be an issue with my copy of MultipleIE. According to the Include-pattern page on the wiki ( http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern ) this may be due my to ActiveX being disabled/broken. The focus seems to have drifted toward smarter parsing of dates, but the two nice things about the title="somethingmachinereadible" pattern were that it could potentially be used for other data (not just dates), and that it was simple enough for us muggles to understand and implement. Any thoughts? Ed > > Just a thought, > G > > [1] http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html > [2] http://webkit.org/blog/32/webkit-fixes-in-safari-202-mac-os-x-1043/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Sat Jun 28 09:30:24 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Sat Jun 28 09:30:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] RE: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought In-Reply-To: References: <200806272311.m5RNBlpA032034@microformats.org> <48662673.7020206@danbri.org> Message-ID: <2359D87A-D983-4E5A-A8C7-69520AC5B068@ben-ward.co.uk> On 28 Jun 2008, at 13:03, Andr? Lu?s wrote: > October > Oct. > > And other languages, like Portuguese: > > Outubro > Out. > > This, however, could be handled with , without hindering > accessibility. > > Oct. With the current abbr-pattern, your example should be: Oct. That's a perfectly valid abbreviation, but doesn't address the internationalisation issue. Outubro is not an abbreviation, it's translation. We end up with the same problem that exists in hcard with supporting < span class="type">cell? in languages outside US English. B From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Sat Jun 28 10:09:48 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Sat Jun 28 10:10:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Using for datetimes (was: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought) In-Reply-To: <486660E8.1070709@eberian.com> References: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> <69F14802-9113-4D8E-94D2-EEF2399138CF@gmail.com> <486660E8.1070709@eberian.com> Message-ID: On 28 Jun 2008, at 17:03, Ed Lucas wrote: > George Brocklehurst wrote: >> Is it worth revisiting Tantek's original suggestion of using the >> object element to represent dates? [1] >> >> The idea was to do something like this: >> >> January 25 This particular example is invalid, as the data="" attribute must contain a URI, and a URI cannot start with a number. >> display:inline and intrinsic sizing will work correctly. Safari >> 2.0.2, which came out in November 2005, was the first version to >> contain these improvements [2]. For note, I don't feel that CSS support on an element should be of consideration when designing microformats. We are operating at the HTML level and must not produce techniques which depend on them (although documenting techniques where CSS can be used to enhace/alter microformats is still valuable, I'm simply meaning that HTML+CSS must not ever be the primary solution to a problem). >> It might be that there are other reasons for not using >> that I've missed (I'm fairly new to the wonderful world of >> Microformats) and it might be that there's still a significant >> population of Safari users on 2.0.1 or older, but if not this could >> be a way forward that gets around the issue. > I'm normally just a lurker here, but no-one has replied, so... > Using the object element seems like a very sensible solution. What > are the blocking issues now that Safari handles it? So, one solution I saw offered to the URIs-can't-start-with-numbers issues was to do everything as a URL fragment, converting it to: January 25 That, however, causes Safari 3 to render a box of the current page within the OBJECT element, and so would introduce a CSS dependency to keep it hidden. No good, I fear. *However*, the following appears to be well behaved inline in Safari 2.04 and 3.1.1, Firefox 1, 1.5, 2 and 3, and Opera 7, 8 and 9. That uses the DATA URI scheme, which without a specified mime type and charset, defaults to text/plain;chartset=US=ASCII. I think that would be sufficient. I've pastied my test case, and would be grateful if people could test the behaviour in Internet Explorer: http://pastie.org/224023 Given that IE has a history of abysmal support for OBJECT and no support for data: URIs? I have no idea what might happen. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data:_URI_scheme http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2397 (data: spec) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2396.txt (URI spec) B From scott at randomchaos.com Sat Jun 28 12:04:10 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sat Jun 28 12:04:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Using for datetimes (was: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought) In-Reply-To: References: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> <69F14802-9113-4D8E-94D2-EEF2399138CF@gmail.com> <486660E8.1070709@eberian.com> Message-ID: On [Jun 28], at [ Jun 28] 11:09 , Ben Ward wrote: > On 28 Jun 2008, at 17:03, Ed Lucas wrote: > >> George Brocklehurst wrote: >>> Is it worth revisiting Tantek's original suggestion of using the >>> object element to represent dates? [1] >>> >>> The idea was to do something like this: >>> >>> January 25 > > This particular example is invalid, as the data="" attribute must > contain a URI, and a URI cannot start with a number. About a week ago I wrote: > On the abbr-design-pattern page, markup rejections section [1] is > the following text: > >> OBJECT with param value. (requires significant extra markup and CSS >> in order to *behave* correctly) > > Can anyone provide more detail about this parenthetical rejection > explanation? If this problem has in fact been resolved (or at least improved) in more recent browser versions, I suggest we look again at using and together, e.g.: January 25 I expect using will result in more readable and flexible markup than data URIs. Peace, Scott From george.brocklehurst at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 14:08:33 2008 From: george.brocklehurst at gmail.com (George Brocklehurst) Date: Sat Jun 28 14:08:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Using for datetimes (was: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought) In-Reply-To: References: <48611AD2.9050601@digitalbazaar.com> <69F14802-9113-4D8E-94D2-EEF2399138CF@gmail.com> <486660E8.1070709@eberian.com> Message-ID: On 28 Jun 2008, at 18:09, Ben Ward wrote: > I've pastied my test case, and would be grateful if people could > test the behaviour in Internet Explorer: http://pastie.org/224023 IE 6, 7 and the beta version of IE 8 all visibly render the object element as a small box, similar to the way they would render a missing image: http://georgebrock.com/misc/object-in-ie.png From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jun 28 16:26:18 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jun 28 16:36:40 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] class="tag" Message-ID: Brian Suda wrote: > if you take a look at the 'category' property, it works how you > are proposing to use 'tag'. Yes 'category' is defined for hCard, hCalendar and (possibly - it's ambiguous) hListing. But it's not for xFolk, hReview, hAtom or simply tagging whole pages. -- Toby A Inkster From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jun 28 16:33:05 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jun 28 16:41:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Using for datetimes (was: Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought) Message-ID: <682C824D-C568-484D-96B1-ECE1742AB596@tobyinkster.co.uk> Ben Ward wrote: > On 28 Jun 2008, at 17:03, Ed Lucas wrote: > > >> January 25 > > This particular example is invalid, as the data="" attribute must > contain a URI, and a URI cannot start with a number. It's perfectly valid. Absolute URIs can't start with a number, but relative ones can - and the data attribute is permitted to contain relative URIs. This proposal is far less elegant than Frances' though. -- Toby A Inkster From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jun 28 16:51:46 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jun 28 17:01:38 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought Message-ID: <5A134844-4457-4569-BF3F-037884E98B67@tobyinkster.co.uk> Andr? Lu?s wrote: > this extension would only work on xHTML, right? Or is it possible to > use rdfa in html? (I'm not that proficient in rdfa) The RDFa people have only specifically defined RDFa in terms of XHTML. This is for mostly pragmatic rather than ideological reasons - it was far easier to spec out that way. In practice, it was always expected that RDFa parsers would also support HTML, and indeed the majority do. There are two pitfalls with adding RDFa to HTML: 1. It adds a few new attributes, plus allows a handful of existing attributes like 'rel', 'rev' and 'content' to be set on more elements than before. Any non-trivial RDFa will make use of these facilities, so can't be validated against the HTML 4.01 Strict DTD. It would probably be not much more than 20 minutes work to download a copy of the DTD, add these attributes in and get your HTML valid though. (Some people seem to have an irrational dislike for custom DTDs, so this solution may not be satisfactory to them.) 2. It also uses xmlns:X attributes, where X can be pretty much anything. Because DTDs don't allow wildcard attributes to be defined, you won't be able to create a DTD that can handle this. Again, use of xmlns:X is not required by RDFa, but any non-trivial page will probably need to. If you know that you're only going to be using a limited number of RDF vocabs, your DTD can however define those ones specifically (e.g. xmlns:dc for Dublin Core, xmlns:foaf for FOAF, etc). But in the general case, this is less easy to get around. Although, it is beyond the scope of the RDFa spec, so is not likely to become official in the foreseeable future, I've proposed an alternative syntax for the xmlns:X stuff to be used in HTML - basically to use RFC 2731. (Which is what eRDF does.) I don't know how many parsers have implemented it, but Cognition includes support - http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ In short, if you're using the standard HTML 4.01 DTDs, RDFa will not validate. But it will work. -- Toby A Inkster From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jun 28 17:24:38 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jun 28 17:25:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought Message-ID: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis: > If you want to to use RDF in an HTML context, look to eRDF eRDF is an interesting experiment, but not particularly practical. Probably the biggest practical problem with it is the use of the id attribute to indicate that (by the attribute's mere presence) an element is the subject of any data found in descendant elements. This makes it difficult to add eRDF to existing documents which are usually already sprinkled liberally with id attributes. For example, if you have a side bar on a page and want to use it to provide some supplementary information about the main body of text, you might expect something like this to work: However, this actually says that the title of <#sidebar> (i.e. not of the whole page) is "Foo bar", and that <#sidebar> was created by Joe Bloggs. Yes, you can rejig things a bit, make your sidebar use a class instead of an id, but adding eRDF to existing pages a pain - especially if they're not simple static pages, and you would need to go through thousands of lines of server side code to find all those id attributes. If you're writing an eRDF page from the ground up, this will probably not bother you as much. The other serious concern is that any information you wish to state about a resource which is not a physical anchor on the current page needs to be made within a link. So if Alice wants to link to Bob's page and mention the title of Bob's page, and when it was last updated, she would need to write something along the lines of: Bob's blog Groovin' with Bob was updated today whereas without eRDF, most normal people would probably only want to link the blog's title, not the whole phrase. This gets pretty awkward if you want to say substantial amounts of information about an off- page resource. (It's possible to work around it by using an id attribute somewhere, saying the information about the id attribute instead of saying it about the link, and then using owl:sameAs to say that the link and the id attribute are the same thing. But that is a hack.) Final annoyance: varying between dots and hyphens to separate the QName prefix and suffix, seemingly at random. Yes, it's quite impressive what they managed to achieve, bringing most of the RDF stack to HTML 4, without adding any new attributes or elements. Yet when it comes to implementing it on real life pages, it's annoying. RDFa is a much nicer solution to work with. -- Toby A Inkster From mdagn at spraci.com Sat Jun 28 18:45:52 2008 From: mdagn at spraci.com (Michael MD) Date: Sat Jun 28 18:46:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previouslythought In-Reply-To: <486660E8.1070709@eberian.com> Message-ID: <200806290145.m5T1juB61830@smtp.syd.comcen.com.au> >The focus seems to have drifted toward smarter parsing of dates, but the Sure ... splitting the date into day, month and year could be workable, or somehow describing a date format in another element, if there is a standard way to do it and it is easy to do, but I'm opposed to anything that relies on unreliable heuristics or localisation to parse dates. There are situations where markup clues used for localisation might be misleading, such as people using microformats in a post on a site they do not themselves run that may even be in a different country. (a shared blogging site that allows html tags in posts would be a good example here) If a parser gets even 1% of dates wrong because of localisation errors it could lead to a lot of people turning up to events on the wrong dates and I'm sure those people would not be too happy about it. So please lets not underestimate the importance of reliable date parsing! It's already bad enough trying to cope with timezone issues in the real world (eg people misusing 'Z' in their datetimes) OK, maybe some aspects of ISO dates are not "human-friendly" enough and we need to look at this, but dates do still need to marked up in a standard way somehow! There is also the issue of parsers becoming slow and bloated. Yes I know its "humans first" but there are limits. If people turn away from using a tool because it is unreliable or too slow is it really "humans first" then? From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Sun Jun 29 01:05:09 2008 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Sun Jun 29 01:05:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previouslythought In-Reply-To: <200806290145.m5T1juB61830@smtp.syd.comcen.com.au> References: <200806290145.m5T1juB61830@smtp.syd.comcen.com.au> Message-ID: <48674235.1090600@googlemail.com> Michael MD wrote: > There are situations where markup clues used for localisation might be > misleading, such as people using microformats in a post on a site they do > not themselves run that may even be in a different country. > (a shared blogging site that allows html tags in posts would be a good > example here) Hmm. Couldn't the person or tool adding the microformat annotation also add a lang attribute at the same time? -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From hsivonen at iki.fi Sun Jun 29 04:58:51 2008 From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen) Date: Sun Jun 29 04:58:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] The BBC case and HTML5