From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 1 04:55:48 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 1 05:01:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: using title on anchor, eg event location References: <47C7FC37.6080601@ts0.com> Message-ID: Thom Shannon wrote: > Should parsers use the title of an anchor for the value of a location > property on hCard, No. > or does that title pattern only apply to explicit abbreviations? (using > abbr). Yes, but see also the issues page and potential alternatives (mostly unimplemented in parsers). -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 19:04.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 1 05:16:21 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 1 05:31:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Perl microformat parsing References: <1203552341.3042.557.camel@robslap> <8gvv85-5o6.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <4eo595-fvc.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <5i1o95-gu5.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Toby A Inkster wrote: > There are still a few things that I want to take care of before I > release alpha3 publicly. Took a bit longer than expected, but alpha3 is here: http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ The main microformat-related changes for this version are that data found in microformats can now be output as RDF; rel=enclosure is now supported; hCalendar support conforms to my own draft hCalendar 1.1 spec (see recent thread "To-do items?" on this mailing list) including events, todo items, freebusy and alarms, and supporting RRULE and EXRULE; and I've attempted to support the tabular event calendar parsing rules described on the wiki . I'd appreciate any examples of pages where it fails to properly parse an hCalendar, hCard, geo or adr. I already know it that does occasionally run into issues with characters sets and unrecognised entities, so you don't need to tell me about that. Full change log for this version: - Switch from XML::DOM to XML::LibXML. Should be my last big parser change! - Restructure object to be more tuple-like. - URLs: - Support for CURIEs. - support for geo: and tag: URIs - use XPointer to provide URLs for document fragments without identifiers - RDF: - use to wrap multiple tuples with the same subject and property - Remove duplicate values within bags - add support for microformats to RDF output - RDF subjects may have multiple URIs defined to help match up properties that actually belong to the same subject (e.g. some properties might be attached to a fragment identifier, and others to an hcard, but if we know that the hcard root element has an id attribute which matches the fragment identifier, then we can equate the subjects) - support "vocabularies" for RDF - convert document structure to RDF , . - Improve STRINGIFY to prevent all these leading and trailing spaces - Recognise (X)HTML predefined link types and put them in XHTML namespace. - More reliable support for namespaces. - Microformats: - Properly parse DateTimes found in microformats. - support table cell header pattern - support hcalendar 1.1 draft - Complete support for RDFa - Much improved support for eRDF, support rdf:type. Any bugs? - Improved support for XHTML role attribute -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 19:14.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From miyagawa at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 07:26:05 2008 From: miyagawa at gmail.com (Tatsuhiko Miyagawa) Date: Sat Mar 1 07:26:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Perl microformat parsing In-Reply-To: <4eo595-fvc.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <1203552341.3042.557.camel@robslap> <8gvv85-5o6.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <4eo595-fvc.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <693254b90803010726v5d6317c4j39f1ed509ed6218c@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > > Web::Scraper > > http://search.cpan.org/dist/Web-Scraper/ > > This looks like a handy module for some purposes, but it's not sufficient > for fully parsing microformats: > > 1. It doesn't seem to support the rel attribute on links, so it will fall > down when looking for rel-tag (which is used for encoding categories in > hcard). process q(*[rel~="me"]), "urls[]" => '@href"; > 2. For images, the alt text should normally be returned (except for a few > properties like photo and logo in hcard), but this module doesn't read alt > text. [ It seems that my code kicks Operator's ass in this dept ;-) ] process 'img', text => '@alt'; > Probably other reasons too, but I can't be bothered to think them all > through. These three ought to be enough to deter people from using it for > serious parsing though. Examples shown in the previous email was a quick one. We can use more fully-fledge XPath or DOM API to do the heavy-lifting. > To parse microformats properly you need DOM, or something of similar > sophistication. For what it's worth, for alpha3 of my code I've switched > to XML::LibXML, which is an alternative to XML::DOM. It copes much better > with parsing random HTML off the web, and has namespace support should I > decide I need it for anything. The module uses HTML::TreeBuilder, which is a slick module to give you DOM access to web pages. In the latest svn repository we use the internal to XML::LibXML with "relaxed" options, as well. -- Tatsuhiko Miyagawa From adam.craven at fourshapes.com Tue Mar 4 05:26:37 2008 From: adam.craven at fourshapes.com (Adam Craven - Four Shapes) Date: Tue Mar 4 05:26:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer Message-ID: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> Hi fellers, We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would love to put some microformats in there. Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance there's a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows for that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as it's the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the future. I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern is . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and filled the field with with extra text, date;

Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is an incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around this. Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still keeping relatively good screen reader support?
  • 206x115
    Play TV

    Two pints of Juergen and a ...

    • Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 characters long.

      Expires in 3 days

      More episodes >>

    • Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 characters long.

      Expires in 3 days

      More episodes >>

    • Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 characters long.

      Expires in 3 days

      More episodes >>

    • From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 4 07:53:12 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 4 08:01:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> Message-ID: <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still > keeping relatively good screen reader support? You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution, but IE6 (which plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR element entirely and will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the DOM tree.) So that technique may prove to be of limited utility. The fact is that the microformats datetime design pattern (and to a lesser extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major accessibility problems. This has been known about and discussed for over 18 months, with various alternatives being proposed, some of which have been pretty bad, but others which look very sensible. Probably my favourite so far was Andy Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list which I have implemented and found to be no more difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern. However, despite a lot of proposals having been put forward, the community seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless one. It is fair enough to take time to consider these things carefully before issuing an edict (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would have never ended up with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the community dithers over deciding upon a replacement, more and more instances of this inaccessible pattern are deployed. For what it's worth, the empty anchors in your example code could also cause accessibility problems -- amongst other issues, they can interfere with the tab sequence when keyboard navigation is used. If I were in your place, with as big an audience as the BBC has, I'd go with an accessible alternative datetime pattern and wait for the parsers to catch up with me. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 34 days, 21:38.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Mar 4 08:42:49 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Mar 4 08:42:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <36748.80.249.57.38.1204648969.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Tue, March 4, 2008 15:53, Toby A Inkster wrote: > The fact is that the microformats datetime design pattern (and to a > lesser extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major accessibility > problems. This has been known about and discussed for over 18 months, > with various alternatives being proposed, some of which have been pretty > bad, but others which look very sensible. Probably my favourite so far was > Andy > Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html> which I have > implemented and found to be no more > difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern. Thank you for confirming that. > However, despite a lot of proposals having been put forward, the > community seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless one. True; that applies to other issues equally, too. > It is > fair enough to take time to consider these things carefully before issuing > an edict (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would have never > ended up with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the community > dithers over deciding upon a replacement, more and more instances of this > inaccessible pattern are deployed. Quite - and, as I've pointed out before, the imminent release of Firefox 3, with native support for microformats, will see a significant leap in public awareness of microformats. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From alasdairking at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 09:27:11 2008 From: alasdairking at gmail.com (Alasdair King) Date: Tue Mar 4 09:27:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <7df2c90b0803040927x1d4dc9d3o6bb1d9fa43f46aa6@mail.gmail.com> I'd do two things: 1 Decide on a microformat that'll work, and ignore the accessibility issues. If you do it well, then other sites will copy you and it'll become a de facto standard. Then the assistive technology vendors (like me) will code support for it into their solutions. There'll be a lag, but we'll end up with a microformat standard in actual use. This is clearly a contentious statement. However, the fact that this able, technical and motivated forum has been unable to come up with a agreed accessible format in eighteen months strongly suggests it isn't going to be able to do so with current assistive technology: better, "build it and they will come." I develop a web browser and RSS news reader and various other accessible programs for blind people, including two applications specifically for users of the live BBC radio streams and the BBC Listen Again service. I can attest that microformats would be a great help to assistive technology vendors, but only if they are widely adopted. It is therefore better to deploy a inaccessible-on-day-0 microformat than never to deploy it at all. One extra line of gobbledegook on a web page for a blind user is really not going to present a big problem, they're quite used to ignoring sections of inaccessible content. A strong microformat champion like the BBC would drive other website designers and the assistive technology vendors will follow on. Better a period of inaccessibility than microformats never being adopted because of well-meaning concerns. If you really really want to do something accessible today then get into a conversation with Andy Mabbett: he seems to be the most knowledgeable on accessibility (and will probably vehemently disagree with my position above!). He'll know the best current solution. (Sarcasm) Because, you know, you want your inaccessible Flash content to be accessed via some really accessible HTML! (End of sarcasm) 2 Provide an OPML or RSS feed for your iPlayer content. That's the really accessible format for your blind users, not having to navigate HTML pages. For example, they could then put your feed in their accessible RSS news reader, or I could update my Accessible BBC Listen Again program to read the feed instead of having to screen-scrape (and don't get me started on your iPlayer Flash setup. Why do users have to click on the Flash to start? Why can't I start/stop it programmatically? I can't even extract the swf url. And don't point me to Backstage, grumble, grumble...) No finding the Flash content on the page, no skip navigation, just straight info. Love your work, by the way. Hurrah for the BBC and your splendid website! Best wishes, Dr. Alasdair King WebbIE http://www.webbie.org.uk On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote: > > > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still > > keeping relatively good screen reader support? > > You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution, but IE6 (which > plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR element entirely and > will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the DOM tree.) So that > technique may prove to be of limited utility. > > The fact is that the microformats datetime design pattern (and to a lesser > extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major accessibility > problems. This has been known about and discussed for over 18 months, with > various alternatives being proposed, some of which have been pretty bad, > but others which look very sensible. Probably my favourite so far was Andy > Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html> which I have > implemented and found to be no more > difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern. > > However, despite a lot of proposals having been put forward, the community > seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless one. It is fair enough > to take time to consider these things carefully before issuing an edict > (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would have never ended up > with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the community dithers > over deciding upon a replacement, more and more instances of this > inaccessible pattern are deployed. > > For what it's worth, the empty anchors in your example code could also > cause accessibility problems -- amongst other issues, they can interfere > with the tab sequence when keyboard navigation is used. > > If I were in your place, with as big an audience as the BBC has, I'd go > with an accessible alternative datetime pattern and wait for the parsers > to catch up with me. > > -- > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS > [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] > [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 34 days, 21:38.] > > Bottled Water > http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Alasdair King From ryan at theryanking.com Tue Mar 4 10:08:39 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Tue Mar 4 10:08:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Reflections on community time, rules, guidelines, and banning Andy Message-ID: <43DE894F-7367-4303-80F3-010F896EEE9E@theryanking.com> The admins have recently spent some time reflecting on the past 18 months or so the microformats community, our progress on various efforts, participation, and how time has been spent. One of the larger conclusions is that a significant (majority) of admins' time has been spent dealing with community meta matters, identifying and diagnosing misbehaviors or other community damaging patterns within the community, careful drafting of additional how to play wiki editing [1] and mailing lists [2] guidelines. Unfortunately this has meant that significantly less time has been spent over the past 18 months or more on doing actual microformats work, resolving issues, iterating and improving existing specs and documentation, and helping guide the development of new microformats as well as improve the process for the development thereof based on all the feedback. An analysis of the "how to play" and "mailing list" rules and guidelines has revealed that the vast majority of these rules have been created in response to the community misbehaviors of one individual: Andy Mabbett. This is an acknowledgment that the continued process of identifying a misbehavior, creating a rule to avoid it, and then warning subsequently, has been insufficient, or rather has merely resulted in admins spending most of their time on microformats on administrivia rather than actual microformats, and that this lack of active productive participation is due primarily to the actions of one individual. As a result we have decided to ban Andy Mabbett from community participation (wiki, lists, blog comments, IRC) for a period of 18 months. This is not Andy's first ban and this action is not taken lightly. The how-to-play and mailing-lists pages have been updated with annotations documenting which of the rules have been created directly due to one or more of Andy's actions (wiki edits and/or emails). As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better transparency and accountability. In addition, in the coming days and weeks we will be taking the time to document more how-to-play and mailing-lists rules and guidelines (most of which are directly due to Andy's actions as well) in the hopes of further minimizing community misbehaviors, and making it clearer to newcomers what kinds of behavior are or are not acceptable. Ryan King (on behalf of the microformats admins[3]) [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/admins From bjonkman at sobac.com Tue Mar 4 11:02:13 2008 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Tue Mar 4 11:02:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar for events in a table format Message-ID: <47CD5665.146.144DD3A@bjonkman.sobac.com> Is there an example of hCalendar in a table? The example link for "Web Essentials 05 Session program" on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming is rotten (the domain we05.com has expired). In short, my question is: Do I make each table cell an individual VEVENT? an individual VCALEDAR item? How do I deal with repeated data without hiding text? I want to add microformats to http://sobac.com/brainshare/ The table has a section, but no cells. --Bob. -- -- -- -- Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Voice: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cel: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Mar 4 13:03:26 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Mar 4 13:01:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <47CD5665.146.144DD3A@bjonkman.sobac.com> Message-ID: On 3/4/08 11:02 AM, "Bob Jonkman" wrote: > Is there an example of hCalendar in a table? The example link for "Web > Essentials 05 > Session program" on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming is > rotten (the > domain we05.com has expired). > > In short, my question is: Do I make each table cell an individual VEVENT? an > individual > VCALEDAR item? How do I deal with repeated data without hiding text? > > I want to add microformats to http://sobac.com/brainshare/ The table has a > > section, but no cells. Bob, take a look at: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild#conference_schedules I will also attempt to recover the lost we05.com "Web Essentials 05 Session program" example from archives and see if I can post it somewhere and then add a link to it from that "conference schedules" section. FAQ added: Thanks, Tantek From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 4 14:44:38 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 4 14:44:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format Message-ID: > Is there an example of hCalendar in a table? The example link for > "Web Essentials 05 Session program" on http://microformats.org/wiki/ > hcalendar-brainstorming is rotten (the domain we05.com has expired). Indeed -- I've recently implemented it, but without a decent example I can't be sure whether my implementation in interoperable with anything else. I took a quick peek at http://hg.microformats.org / x2v, but despite indications on the hcalendar-brainstorming page that this pattern is supported by X2V, I couldn't see any evidence for it in the source code. (But then again, I'm no XSLT expert.) I put together this example (using hCard instead of hCalendar, but the principle is the same) for testing. There is nothing special about the use of TH elements for the headers. They are the semantically correct element to use, but TD would work just the same. The THEAD and TBODY elements are optional.
    Full name Role London Address
    Elizabeth Windsor Queen Buckingham Palace
    Gordon Brown Prime Minister 10 Downing Street
    The output should be: BEGIN:VCARD FN:Gordon Brown N:Brown;Gordon ROLE:Prime Minister ADR:;;10 Downing Street;London;;; END:VCARD BEGIN:VCARD FN:Elizabeth Windsor N:Windsor;Elizabeth ROLE:Queen ADR:;;Buckingham Palace;London;;; END:VCARD For the record, here's the algorithm I've used, operating on a clone of the DOM tree (because it makes DOM modifications which you probably want to discard after parsing) For each TD element within a microformat root element (including the root element itself if it's a TD) { Skip to the next TD if there is no "headers" attribute; Split the "headers" attribute on whitespace into individual headers. For each header { Htag = getElementById(header); If Htag has an "axis" attribute, append its value to the TD element's "class" attribute; Create a new DOM "DIV" element, called NewTag; NewTag.setAttribute("class", Htag.getAttribute("class")); Foreach child node of Htag { Clone the child and add it as a child of NewTag; } Add NewTag as a child of the TD; } } After this, the table design pattern has been "normalised", so that the hCalendar/hCard can be parsed as normal without having to worry about the pattern at all. -- Toby A Inkster From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 15:16:41 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Mar 4 15:16:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780803041516u2d28b0e3wfd01c16eb37fc44d@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/4, Toby A Inkster : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- i haven't tested your example, but X2V does support the header/id. There are two might issues with the example mark-up. The headers="id_fn" is a sort of call-back to the item with that ID. X2V then takes the children of that ID and looks for any matching properties. So your example of: would need to become: Axis is not used and the class="fn" needs to be a child of the id being referenced. To see a working example, you can visit: http://www.sixnationskickoff.com/ it is hCalendar items, but it is pretty easy to figure out how to use hCard instead. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Wed Mar 5 00:49:10 2008 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Wed Mar 5 00:49:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CE5E86.9070804@googlemail.com> Toby A Inkster wrote: >
    Full nameRoleLondon Address
    Elizabeth WindsorQueen > Buckingham Palace >
    Full nameFull name
    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
    Full nameRoleLondon Address
    Elizabeth WindsorQueen > Buckingham Palace >
    Gordon BrownPrime Minister > 10 Downing Street >
    AFAICT this is a double misuse of the, admittedly confusingly specified, HTML 4.01 AXIS attribute: 1) You're using it for machine-readable identifiers ('fn') as though it were CLASS. But it's actually intended for being rendered directly as human-readable information: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#multi-dimension And that's precisely what JAWS does, for instance: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/Surfs_Up/Tables.htm 2) The content of AXIS (e.g. a formatted name) is in the cell on which it is set and the cell then acts as a header for other cells referencing it by ID. The AXIS itself is not inherited by cells to which a TH is a header. In one of the examples from the spec: San Jose San Jose /is/ a location not a label for locations. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Wed Mar 5 01:45:42 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Wed Mar 5 01:45:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer Message-ID: <380-2200833594542113@M2W014.mail2web.com> Hi, JAWS/IE6 will read out . Jon Gibbins has published a useful article about screenreaders and , which specifically mentions the misconception that doesn't work in JAWS. http://dotjay.co.uk/2008/feb/screen-readers-and-abbreviations To avoid using , you could publish the ISO date directly on the page, then hide the element containing the date with display:none? Cheers Jim Original Message: ----------------- From: Toby A Inkster mail@tobyinkster.co.uk Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:53:12 +0000 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still > keeping relatively good screen reader support? You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution, but IE6 (which plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR element entirely and will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the DOM tree.) So that technique may prove to be of limited utility. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 5 01:27:11 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 5 02:01:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format References: <21e770780803041516u2d28b0e3wfd01c16eb37fc44d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian Suda wrote: > i haven't tested your example, but X2V does support the header/id. Really? As I say, I only had a quick skim of the code on hg.microformats.org, and don't really know much XSLT anyway, so I may well have missed it. I also think I was explicitly looking for the word "axis" when I was skimming, so may have missed it because of... > So your example of: > Full name > would need to become: > Full name > Axis is not used and the class="fn" needs to be a child of the id > being referenced. That would be contrary to Tantek's guidelines on the Wiki: | If the element is a table data cell , then: | | 1. parse its "headers" attribute as a space separated set of local IDs | | 2. find the and elements referenced by those IDs (call them | header cells) and consider them part of the element being parsed | as follows: | | 1. Treat the header cells as children of the element, ordered by | the order of ids in its "headers" attribute, immediately | following the last child node (text or element) or the | element. (The basic idea is that the content from those | header cells is used to construct the VEVENT, but secondary | to (AFTER) the content in the data cell itself, so that the | data cell can customize/override part of the data in the | header, e.g. if the header cell included both start time and | location, and the event was being held at a different | location). | | 2. Parse the "axis" attribute of a header cell as a comma- | separated list of categories. These categories must be used | in addition to (and before) any class names on that header | cell for determining whether it is a property of the VEVENT. The example I provided will be correctly parsed as hCard according to these guidelines. > To see a working example, you can visit: > http://www.sixnationskickoff.com/ > it is hCalendar items, but it is pretty easy to figure out how to use > hCard instead. Not a particularly useful example: the table headers don't contain any microformat classes. Also, what's up with the extra "uid" classes for each event? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 35 days, 15:22.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 02:17:39 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Mar 5 02:17:42 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780803041516u2d28b0e3wfd01c16eb37fc44d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780803050217r1791ae93o2ac257d3fa325c5c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/5, Toby A Inkster : > That would be contrary to Tantek's guidelines on the Wiki: --- correct, then we should further discuss this on the dev-list and correct the wiki as needed. > | If the element is a table data cell , then: > | > | 1. parse its "headers" attribute as a space separated set of local IDs > | > | 2. find the and elements referenced by those IDs (call them > | header cells) and consider them part of the element being parsed > | as follows: > | > | 1. Treat the header cells as children of the element, ordered by > | the order of ids in its "headers" attribute, immediately > | following the last child node (text or element) or the > | element. (The basic idea is that the content from those > | header cells is used to construct the VEVENT, but secondary > | to (AFTER) the content in the data cell itself, so that the > | data cell can customize/override part of the data in the > | header, e.g. if the header cell included both start time and > | location, and the event was being held at a different > | location). > | > | 2. Parse the "axis" attribute of a header cell as a comma- > | separated list of categories. These categories must be used > | in addition to (and before) any class names on that header > | cell for determining whether it is a property of the VEVENT. -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 5 03:57:40 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 5 03:58:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <7df2c90b0803040927x1d4dc9d3o6bb1d9fa43f46aa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Alasdair King wrote: > This is clearly a contentious statement. However, the fact that this > able, technical and motivated forum has been unable to come up with a > agreed accessible format in eighteen months strongly suggests it isn't > going to be able to do so with current assistive technology: better, > "build it and they will come." In my opinion this is a misrepresentation of the status quo. The reason that no consensus has been agreed for an accessible alternative to the ABBR pattern is not that no accessible alternatives exist; it is not that no alternatives have been suggested; and nor is it a lack of assistive technology support for the suggestions. It is simply that none of the proposed alternative patterns have been rubber-stamped by the powers that be. For example, the following: started two days ago Is perfectly accessible in all tested screen readers (the read the human- readable "started two days ago") and seems to present no problems for any other assistive technology. It is trivial to implement -- simply find all elements (not just SPAN) with title attributes that match the regular expression: /^.*data\:(.*)[\]\}\)]?$/ and take the matching sub-expression (.*) to be the value of the property. It doesn't interfere with the existing ABBR design pattern (which is, occasionally, used in an accessible manner, such as JP in hCard) so can be used in conjunction with it as appropriate; and is highly unlikely to match any false positives on existing web pages. There have been other good suggestions too (though none I think as good as the one shown above) -- it is not suggestions that we lack, but the inertia to make one or more of them "official" and widely implemented. It does not bode well for the accessibility of Microformats that one of the main providers of said inertia has just been banned from the process for 18 months. For my part, I've implemented this "data:" prefix in Cognition and plan on using it when I add hAtom support to demiblog . (hCalendar was previously rolled back out of demiblog due to accessibility concerns. hCard, XFN and rel-tag are currently used though.) -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 35 days, 17:46.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Mar 5 04:07:12 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:07:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <36748.80.249.57.38.1204648969.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: On 4/3/08 16:42, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > as I've pointed out before, the imminent release of Firefox > 3, with native support for microformats, will see a significant leap in > public awareness of microformats. Is this still true? My understanding was that native uf support would not be shipped in FF3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Wed Mar 5 04:12:24 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:10:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <21e770780803050217r1791ae93o2ac257d3fa325c5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/5/08 2:17 AM, "Brian Suda" wrote: > 2008/3/5, Toby A Inkster : >> That would be contrary to Tantek's guidelines on the Wiki: >> | If the element is a table data cell , then: >> | >> | 1. parse its "headers" attribute as a space separated set of local IDs >> | >> | 2. find the and elements referenced by those IDs (call them >> | header cells) and consider them part of the element being parsed >> | as follows: >> | >> | 1. Treat the header cells as children of the element, ordered by >> | the order of ids in its "headers" attribute, immediately >> | following the last child node (text or element) or the >> | element. (The basic idea is that the content from those >> | header cells is used to construct the VEVENT, but secondary >> | to (AFTER) the content in the data cell itself, so that the >> | data cell can customize/override part of the data in the >> | header, e.g. if the header cell included both start time and >> | location, and the event was being held at a different >> | location). >> | >> | 2. Parse the "axis" attribute of a header cell as a comma- >> | separated list of categories. These categories must be used >> | in addition to (and before) any class names on that header >> | cell for determining whether it is a property of the VEVENT. > > > --- correct, then we should further discuss this on the dev-list and > correct the wiki as needed. > Given Benjamin's message about the "axis" attribute: and the fact that we've never needed to use the axis attribute in a realworld tabular event example, nor has that step been implemented, I've removed the "Parse the 'axis'..." step. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars Thanks, Tantek From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Mar 5 04:21:00 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:21:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> Message-ID: Hi Adam We've had the same problems with http://bbc.co.uk/programmes. For now we've stuck with the standard abbr design pattern but as Mr Mabbett helpfully pointed out our use has potential accessibility issues and definite semantic nastiness. See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation We've spoken to the bbc accessibility and semantic html working groups. The accessibility people said there were no accessibility problems which in the light of discussions here and elsewhere surprises me. I'm still chasing to get a definite answer and some proper testing The conversation is currently in the hands of the UXD cluster I've been pushing to get full coverage testing and an update to the BBC accessibility standards to say either: - you may use microformats - you may use the abbreviation design pattern Or conversely - you may use microformats - you must not use the abbreviation design pattern [And similar for rdf-a] Would be good if you could also raise these questions with Nick Holmes and cc Frances Berriman and me. Ta On 4/3/08 13:26, "Adam Craven - Four Shapes" wrote: > Hi fellers, > > We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would love to > put some microformats in there. > > Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance there's > a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, > using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows for > that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as it's > the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the > future. > > I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern is > . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which > is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with > {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and > filled the field with with extra text, date; > >

    Date: abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2

    > > That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is an > incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around this. > > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst > still keeping relatively good screen reader support? > > > >
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    • > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Mar 5 04:47:32 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:47:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoops that wasn't meant to go out to the world But whilst I'm here I probably should point out that /most/ bbc services/channels/networks now have uf-ed schedules http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/programmes/schedules http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/schedules/fm http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/programmes/schedules/oxford http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/programmes/schedules I'll leave you to guess the rest of the urls For the moment some schedules are still missing (fivelive, bbc parliament, local radio etc) but they'll be along soon. They're also not properly linked into the site but over time will replace existing bbc schedules currently provided by: http://www.bbc.co.uk/whatson/ Should also note that all of the below still applies. We're looking for clarification on the accessibility / semantic validity of these pages. And we'll let you know if/when we get it ;-) On 5/3/08 12:21, "Michael Smethurst" wrote: > Hi Adam > > We've had the same problems with http://bbc.co.uk/programmes. For now we've > stuck with the standard abbr design pattern but as Mr Mabbett helpfully > pointed out our use has potential accessibility issues and definite semantic > nastiness. > > See here: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation > > We've spoken to the bbc accessibility and semantic html working groups. The > accessibility people said there were no accessibility problems which in the > light of discussions here and elsewhere surprises me. I'm still chasing to > get a definite answer and some proper testing > > The conversation is currently in the hands of the UXD cluster > > I've been pushing to get full coverage testing and an update to the BBC > accessibility standards to say either: > > - you may use microformats > - you may use the abbreviation design pattern > > Or conversely > > - you may use microformats > - you must not use the abbreviation design pattern > > [And similar for rdf-a] > > Would be good if you could also raise these questions with Nick Holmes and > cc Frances Berriman and me. Ta > > > > > > > On 4/3/08 13:26, "Adam Craven - Four Shapes" > wrote: > >> Hi fellers, >> >> We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would love to >> put some microformats in there. >> >> Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance there's >> a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, >> using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows for >> that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as it's >> the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the >> future. >> >> I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern is >> . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which >> is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with >> {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and >> filled the field with with extra text, date; >> >>

    Date:> abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2

    >> >> That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is an >> incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around this. >> >> Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst >> still keeping relatively good screen reader support? >> >> >> >>
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    • >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal > views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. > If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on > it and notify the sender immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to this. > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 5 05:02:20 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 5 05:02:55 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format References: <21e770780803050217r1791ae93o2ac257d3fa325c5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik wrote: > and the fact that we've never needed to use the axis attribute in a > realworld tabular event example, nor has that step been implemented, > I've removed the "Parse the 'axis'..." step. > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars A sensible move, I'd say. Though I've added a note below your change stating that yes, it has been implemented -- by me. Though I plan on un-implementing it now. What could be a very handy addition to this parsing technique would be to say that when the "headers" attribute is not present on table cell X, parsers should: 1. For each TH element in the same row as X, if it has a scope attribute of "row" then assume that it is a header for X. 2. For each TH element in the same column as X, and same TBODY as X, if it has a scope attribute of "col" then assume that it is a header for X. 3. For each TH element in the same column as X, if it is within that table's THEAD or TFOOT, and it has a scope attribute of "col" then assume that it is a header for X. This would make authoring such tables much simpler. Instead of:
    Person England Scotland
    Gordon Brown 10 Downing Street 318-324 High Street, Cowdenbeath
    Elizabeth Windsor Buckingham Palace Balmoral Castle
    One could have:
    Person England Scotland
    Gordon Brown 10 Downing Street 318-324 High Street, Cowdenbeath
    Elizabeth Windsor Buckingham Palace Balmoral Castle
    However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to entry for authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly because of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. Although microformats' general principle is to place the burden of effort onto parsers, implied headers via the scope attribute may shift the effort *too* far in that direction. What do others think? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 35 days, 18:57.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Mar 5 05:43:05 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Mar 5 05:43:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <7df2c90b0803040927x1d4dc9d3o6bb1d9fa43f46aa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2504A441-C48B-4E03-AECF-68A80DAED50F@randomchaos.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 4:57 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > For example, the following: > > class="dtstart">started two days ago > > Is perfectly accessible in all tested screen readers (the read the > human- > readable "started two days ago") and seems to present no problems > for any > other assistive technology. I think the problem is that "seems to." The original pattern seemed to present no problems, but then it did have problems with real screen readers in deployment. So the progress is slow here because it's difficult to get access to such testing, and such testing is very important. See: http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/users.html To avoid repeating the same mistake, we shouldn't rubber stamp any potential solution without first testing with real world screen reader users. Lacking volunteers coming forward to offer such testing, as they have with the include pattern, perhaps we should look into how much it would cost to pay for the testing and see if we can't raise funds to get it done. Peace, Scott From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Wed Mar 5 07:30:46 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Wed Mar 5 07:28:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/5/08 5:02 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to entry for > authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly because > of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. Speaking from the experience of working on a browser rendering engine which *did* have to handle colspan and rowspan, I can certainly state that requiring a microformats parser to perform a table layout (effectively what it takes to support colspan and rowspan) would *drastically* raise the effort necessary and would introduce numerous opportunities for subtle bugs and incompatibilities. I think it would be reasonable to adopt a design principle of *not* requiring microformat parsers to perform a table layout, even if it can be used to make inferring semantics easier. > Although microformats' general principle is to place the burden of effort > onto parsers, implied headers via the scope attribute may shift the effort > *too* far in that direction. What do others think? Yes, very much so too far in that direction. Thanks, Tantek From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 07:28:31 2008 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Wed Mar 5 07:28:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice Message-ID: Hi all, It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather awkward way: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. :DG< From adam.craven at fourshapes.com Wed Mar 5 07:24:36 2008 From: adam.craven at fourshapes.com (Adam Craven - Four Shapes) Date: Wed Mar 5 08:06:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1820298A-17AA-488D-A40D-19331DD6EF1B@fourshapes.com> Thanks everyone for the responses. We especially resonated with the pushing the use of them now in their full format, not quite accessible as they can be. Ultimately microformats are standards-based and there to support accessibility rather than hinder. It's about time screen readers had a reason to move quicker. In firefox 3, microformats should be in http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Product_Requirements_Document (CON-008a). However nothing appears in the latest beta. Having spoke with others internally, the consensus was to use the abbr tag for the time being, and all the caveats that it brings. Adam On 5 Mar 2008, at 12:47, Michael Smethurst wrote: > Whoops that wasn't meant to go out to the world > > But whilst I'm here I probably should point out that /most/ bbc > services/channels/networks now have uf-ed schedules > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/programmes/schedules > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/schedules/fm > http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/programmes/schedules/oxford > http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/programmes/schedules > > I'll leave you to guess the rest of the urls > > For the moment some schedules are still missing (fivelive, bbc > parliament, > local radio etc) but they'll be along soon. They're also not > properly linked > into the site but over time will replace existing bbc schedules > currently > provided by: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/whatson/ > > Should also note that all of the below still applies. We're looking > for > clarification on the accessibility / semantic validity of these > pages. And > we'll let you know if/when we get it ;-) > > > > > > On 5/3/08 12:21, "Michael Smethurst" > wrote: > >> Hi Adam >> >> We've had the same problems with http://bbc.co.uk/programmes. For >> now we've >> stuck with the standard abbr design pattern but as Mr Mabbett >> helpfully >> pointed out our use has potential accessibility issues and definite >> semantic >> nastiness. >> >> See here: >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation >> >> We've spoken to the bbc accessibility and semantic html working >> groups. The >> accessibility people said there were no accessibility problems >> which in the >> light of discussions here and elsewhere surprises me. I'm still >> chasing to >> get a definite answer and some proper testing >> >> The conversation is currently in the hands of the UXD cluster >> >> I've been pushing to get full coverage testing and an update to the >> BBC >> accessibility standards to say either: >> >> - you may use microformats >> - you may use the abbreviation design pattern >> >> Or conversely >> >> - you may use microformats >> - you must not use the abbreviation design pattern >> >> [And similar for rdf-a] >> >> Would be good if you could also raise these questions with Nick >> Holmes and >> cc Frances Berriman and me. Ta >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 4/3/08 13:26, "Adam Craven - Four Shapes" > > >> wrote: >> >>> Hi fellers, >>> >>> We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would >>> love to >>> put some microformats in there. >>> >>> Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance >>> there's >>> a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, >>> using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows >>> for >>> that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as >>> it's >>> the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the >>> future. >>> >>> I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern >>> is >>> . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which >>> is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with >>> {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and >>> filled the field with with extra text, date; >>> >>>

    >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:>> abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2

    >>> >>> That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is >>> an >>> incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around >>> this. >>> >>> Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst >>> still keeping relatively good screen reader support? >>> >>> >>> >>>
  • >>>
    >>> >>> >> alt="206x115" /> >>> >>>
    >>> >>> Play TV >>> >>>

    >>> Two pints of Juergen and a ... >>>

    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
      >>>
    • >>> >>> >>>

      >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>>
      >>>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >>> characters long.

      >>>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>>
      >>>

      More episodes >>

      >>>
      • >>>
    • >>> >>> >>>

      >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>>
      >>>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >>> characters long.

      >>>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>>
      >>>

      More episodes >>

      >>>
      • >>>
    • >>> >>> >>>

      >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>>
      >>>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >>> characters long.

      >>>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>>
      >>>

      More episodes >>

      >>>
      • >>>
    >>> >>> >>>
    • >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microformats-discuss mailing list >>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ >> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain >> personal >> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. >> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. >> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in >> reliance on >> it and notify the sender immediately. >> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. >> Further communication will signify your consent to this. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain > personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless > specifically stated. > If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in > reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to this. > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 09:16:06 2008 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Wed Mar 5 09:16:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Reflections on community time, rules, guidelines, and banning Andy In-Reply-To: <43DE894F-7367-4303-80F3-010F896EEE9E@theryanking.com> References: <43DE894F-7367-4303-80F3-010F896EEE9E@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <6ABC0882-9C28-497F-AF0E-740922A445BE@gmail.com> Hi Ryan, On Mar 4, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Ryan King wrote: > The how-to-play and mailing-lists pages have been updated with > annotations > documenting which of the rules have been created directly due to one > or > more of Andy's actions (wiki edits and/or emails). > > As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those > annotations > to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki history that > caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with their causes > as > well. We believe this will help provide better transparency and > accountability. Thanks for taking the time to explain and document your actions clearly. I'm sure this was a difficult decision, but I appreciate the hard work all of the admins have put in to do this as fairly as possible. Sincerely, Ernest Prabhakar From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 5 10:40:43 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 5 10:40:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather > awkward way: > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices > > On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant > manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. > But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. Yeah, I find it strange that they say that they're using hAtom, but then go and mint a new term. Why not just use hAtom and be done with it? Would it be too much to ask for this feature to work with *already deployed content on the web*? Come on, microsoft, you're so close to getting it right here! -ryan From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 5 10:45:40 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 5 10:45:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:30 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 3/5/08 5:02 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > >> However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to >> entry for >> authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly >> because >> of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. > > Speaking from the experience of working on a browser rendering > engine which > *did* have to handle colspan and rowspan, I can certainly state that > requiring a microformats parser to perform a table layout > (effectively what > it takes to support colspan and rowspan) would *drastically* raise the > effort necessary and would introduce numerous opportunities for > subtle bugs > and incompatibilities. Though I don't disagree with you that requiring table layout is too much, I just wanted to point out that the current HTML5 draft includes a more fully specified algorithm for determining table headers: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#header-and-data-cell-semantics -ryan From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 10:59:22 2008 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Wed Mar 5 10:59:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it seems it would be pretty seamless to have the content work both as a webslice and hatom, no?
    ...
    One could argue that this way only the intended hAtom's will be usable as hSlices... but I'd expect it to have a wider audience from boot if they allowed hAtom as spec'ed... -- Andr? Lu?s On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > Hi all, > > It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather > awkward way: > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices > > On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant > manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. > But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. > > :DG< > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Mar 5 11:13:11 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Mar 5 11:13:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> References: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803051113i3d8ae444p4b7fc94a80949705@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ryan King wrote: > > On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather > > awkward way: > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices > > > > On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant > > manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. > > But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. > > Yeah, I find it strange that they say that they're using hAtom, but > then go and mint a new term. Why not just use hAtom and be done with > it? Would it be too much to ask for this feature to work with *already > deployed content on the web*? > > > > Come on, microsoft, you're so close to getting it right here! > > -ryan > Yes, it's very odd. I think they may have done this because they (maybe) wanted to - avoid making people think that the "slice" was a weblog - avoid having to use the required elements in hAtom [1] - encapsulate the idea of _one_ thing that's being updated This second one is probably a bigger issue, as I don't know any reasonable way of getting rid of "updated"/"created" and still have a complaint Atom document. Maybe make it be the current datetime? I think this is where the webslice differs from a feed -- it's one thing that's continually being updated, rather than a feed where _new_ things are appearing all the time. The whitepapers can be read here [2]. Note the interesting way of subscribing to a feed (which can only have a single entry, btw): Subscribe to WebSlice I don't see "ref" in HTML 4.01 [3] - something in a new spec or is it broken HTML? If it was part of a standard I could see uses for it, such as encoding IDs. It would have been nice if MS engaged us here, so we could have banged around some ideas (or flew me to Redmond for consultants ;-) My thought would be to do something like this:
    ... the webslice ...
    Regards, etc... [1] which reminds me to get our notes from SGFooCamp for hAtom 0.2 up... [2] http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567 [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#edef-A -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From karns.17 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 11:20:03 2008 From: karns.17 at gmail.com (Jason Karns) Date: Wed Mar 5 11:20:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> References: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <4a1990c40803051120m22414bb3lf1fb7d3a63c4a1fd@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Ryan King wrote: > On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:30 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > On 3/5/08 5:02 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > > > >> However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to > >> entry for > >> authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly > >> because > >> of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. > > > > Speaking from the experience of working on a browser rendering > > engine which > > *did* have to handle colspan and rowspan, I can certainly state that > > requiring a microformats parser to perform a table layout > > (effectively what > > it takes to support colspan and rowspan) would *drastically* raise the > > effort necessary and would introduce numerous opportunities for > > subtle bugs > > and incompatibilities. > > Though I don't disagree with you that requiring table layout is too > much, I just wanted to point out that the current HTML5 draft includes > a more fully specified algorithm for determining table headers: > > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#header-and-data-cell-semantics > > -ryan > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > I am a little worried about dropping support for hCalendar in table markup. If the most semantic markup for a given hCalendar is in a table, then to use hCalendar authors would be required to use less-semantic markup. I think we can all agree this is not a desired side effect of using microformats. We would then have the table-based markup situation of the 90's, only reversed. (using alternative markup such as divs and spans where tables *should* be used). ~Jason From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 5 11:53:49 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 5 11:54:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <4a1990c40803051120m22414bb3lf1fb7d3a63c4a1fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> <4a1990c40803051120m22414bb3lf1fb7d3a63c4a1fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BE2A588-B7BC-44D0-9535-B1DAA0EF4453@theryanking.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Jason Karns wrote: > > I am a little worried about dropping support for hCalendar in table > markup. If the most semantic markup for a given hCalendar is in a > table, then to use hCalendar authors would be required to use > less-semantic markup. I think we can all agree this is not a desired > side effect of using microformats. We would then have the table-based > markup situation of the 90's, only reversed. (using alternative markup > such as divs and spans where tables *should* be used). No one has suggested that hCalendar not be supported in tables. Tantek was only suggesting that the axis attribute and table layout were not useful and too high a burden, respectively. You can still use the headers attribute to link hCalendar events in a table to their headers. -ryan From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Mar 5 12:02:18 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Mar 5 12:02:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803051113i3d8ae444p4b7fc94a80949705@mail.gmail.com> References: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> <21e523c20803051113i3d8ae444p4b7fc94a80949705@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803051202m7d44723q11dac58883a78eba@mail.gmail.com> I've posted my initial thoughts: http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From costello at mitre.org Fri Mar 7 08:16:28 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Fri Mar 7 08:16:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] What social networking sites uses XFN to express relationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it can be screen-scraped? Message-ID: Hi Folks, What social networking sites use XFN to express relationship information? In particular, I am seeking sites that let me see and scrape the XFN data. That is, I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the rel="..." on the link. Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but the XFN data is not visible. Thanks! /Roger From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Mar 7 09:01:43 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Mar 7 09:02:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] What social networking sites uses XFN to express relationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it can be screen-scraped? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9325996C-CFB6-4DF9-8191-C6F482AB3117@randomchaos.com> On Mar 7, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > What social networking sites use XFN to express relationship > information? > > In particular, I am seeking sites that let me see and scrape the XFN > data. That is, I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the > rel="..." on the link. > > Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but > the XFN data is not visible. It's not a social networking focus, but metafilter.com uses XFN how you're describing. See, for example: http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 Peace, Scott From ggb at tid.es Fri Mar 7 08:31:30 2008 From: ggb at tid.es (Gustavo Garcia Bernardo) Date: Fri Mar 7 09:31:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I was wondering how a web application could publish the support to offer a service for a type of microformat (i.e. hotmail could publish support to add hCards to your agenda and gmaps support to show a geo or addr in a map). Something like IE8 Activities (Microsoft openservice specification) but oriented to microformats (microservices/microactivities). Does it makes sense for you? Do you have any reference to previous work on this field? Thanks a lot, G. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Mar 7 09:13:30 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Mar 7 10:01:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: Toby A Inkster wrote: > It is fair enough to take time to consider these things carefully before > issuing an edict (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would > have never ended up with a broken datetime design pattern), but while > the community dithers over deciding upon a replacement, more and more > instances of this inaccessible pattern are deployed. An example of the inaccessible datetime pattern can now be seen in the Microsoft WebSlice whitepaper[1]. The further it spreads, the harder it will be to fix. (Also it's worth noting that the first four HTML examples in the paper contain invalid HTML.) ____ 1. http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx? ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567 -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 37 days, 23:28.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From hober0 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 10:45:31 2008 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Fri Mar 7 10:46:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: What social networking sites uses XFN to express relationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it can be screen-scraped? References: Message-ID: Hi Roger, > Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but > the XFN data is not visible. I'm not sure what this could mean. If you mean, by visible: > I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the rel="..." on the > link. then WordPress does indeed make its XFN data visible. In fact, there's no other way to use XFN. Have I misunderstood your question? From costello at mitre.org Fri Mar 7 13:46:15 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Fri Mar 7 13:46:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: What social networking sites uses XFN to expressrelationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it canbe screen-scraped? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, I have a blog account on WordPress.com When I add an individual to my blogroll the user interface on WordPress.com gives me the ability to designate the individual as friend, co-worker, etc (all the XFN values). After adding the individual I see a web page containing the link to the new individual. But when I do View Page Source on that web page I do not see the XFN stuff on the link. For example, here is a link on my blogroll: adambosworth.wordpress.com Notice that there is no rel="..." on the link. Also, I noticed on the wiki page [1] this tidbit about WordPress: "An open-source Weblogging package that offers XFN annotation of its internally-stored list of links." Notice the phrase: "internally-stored" So, between my own experience on WordPress.com, and this wiki tidbit I have come to the conclusion that the XFN information is not visible. But I hope to be proven wrong! /Roger http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/tools -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Edward O'Connor Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:46 PM To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: What social networking sites uses XFN to expressrelationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it canbe screen-scraped? Hi Roger, > Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but > the XFN data is not visible. I'm not sure what this could mean. If you mean, by visible: > I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the rel="..." on the > link. then WordPress does indeed make its XFN data visible. In fact, there's no other way to use XFN. Have I misunderstood your question? _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From alasdairking at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 14:48:52 2008 From: alasdairking at gmail.com (Alasdair King) Date: Fri Mar 7 14:48:55 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <7df2c90b0803071448w2742b57ape831d79c37a7dcdc@mail.gmail.com> > Toby A Inkster wrote: > An example of the inaccessible datetime pattern can now be seen in the > Microsoft WebSlice whitepaper[1]. The further it spreads, the harder it > will be to fix. > ____ > 1. http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx? > ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567 The further it spreads, the more likely Freedom Scientific are to add support for it. Then it isn't inaccessible. Inaccessible has three meanings: you just can't make it accessible (e.g. an image without an alt tag), you could make it accessible because it's machine-readable but it isn't right now (e.g. the datetime pattern), and it's theoretically-accessible but most/many people with a disability find it too hard to use (e.g. the iPlayer online Flash content). The first is absolutely bad. The second is bad if you have no chance of vendors adding support for it, but I'd argue that it may be better than not progressing a technology that has potential benefits for assistive technology users. The third is bad but stops being "accessibility" and starts being "usability" and more a matter for individual developers and situations. Of course, the devil is in telling your "inaccessible and always will be" from "inaccessible until it's supported"! But if we have Microsoft - and the BBC? - using a particular microformat... Best wishes, Alasdair King -- Alasdair King From ggb at tid.es Fri Mar 7 14:46:27 2008 From: ggb at tid.es (Gustavo) Date: Fri Mar 7 15:47:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices Message-ID: <47D1C5C3.3020401@tid.es> Hi all, I was wondering how a web page could publish a service for a type of microformat (i.e. hotmail could publish support to add hCards to your agenda and gmaps support to show a geo or addr in a map). Something like IE8 Activities (Microsoft openservice specification) but oriented to microformats (microservices/microactivities?). Does it makes sense for you? Do you have any reference to previous work on this field? Thanks a lot, G. From bbtommorris at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 16:37:55 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Fri Mar 7 16:37:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Gustavo Garcia Bernardo wrote: > I was wondering how a web application could publish the support to offer a service for a type of microformat (i.e. hotmail could publish support to add hCards to your agenda and gmaps support to show a geo or addr in a map). > > Something like IE8 Activities (Microsoft openservice specification) but oriented to microformats (microservices/microactivities). > I'm not sure there is a compelling need for them at the moment. Currently if you want to implement a service, you can quite easily write an Operator plugin. Often data from the Web (including microformatted data) will need pre-processing before submitting to a service - which would seem to make coming up with a 'service specification' both difficult and impractical. The approach of specifying a 'web service' language has been fraught with difficulties - as the current trend towards RESTful services instead of Web Services Architecture shows. It would be a good idea to collect alongside microformats and other formats on the Web (whether embedded in markup or in other formats) possible services which they are, could or should be compatible with. If there is a common set of patterns between them, then perhaps it would be appropriate to standardise them in some way. I may be wrong - in which case, it's probably a good idea if we see if Microsoft's OpenService stuff gets implemented anywhere outside of Internet Explorer 8. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From lorenzo.detomasi at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 01:11:44 2008 From: lorenzo.detomasi at gmail.com (Lorenzo De Tomasi) Date: Sat Mar 8 01:11:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom in Wordpress or Php: Iso 8601 timestamp Message-ID: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> ISO 8601 timestamp in WordPress and Php < http://isotype.org/2008/01/29/wp_iso8601_timestamp/ > I'm trying to create a new version of Kubrik WordPress template, compliant to Microformats hAtom. To do this I need to output a timestamp compliant to the ISO 8601 standard, defined in the RFC 3339. It's not easy as it should be? Microformats code for the timestamp of this post should be: January 29, 2008, 11:42 am, where 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 is the ISO 8601 timestamp. WordPress has not a founction that outputs a standard ISO 8601 timestamp. The date and time when a post has been published can be called using WP functions the_time and the date, that follow php rules. The best result you can achieve using default WP 2.3.1/Php commands is 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100, without : in the time-offset (+0100 should be +01:00). , , that is the default DATE_ISO8601 datetime constant, as defined on pear. So, if you want this result, it's better to use . But now the question is which is the correct ISO 8601 timestamp? 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 or 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100? -- Lorenzo De Tomasi Designer multimodale http://www.ipernico.it http://www.isotype.org (in costruzione) From scott at randomchaos.com Sat Mar 8 09:42:28 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sat Mar 8 09:42:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom in Wordpress or Php: Iso 8601 timestamp In-Reply-To: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11E8AEE8-8CA7-46B2-B94D-481E68B6BFF7@randomchaos.com> On Mar 8, 2008, at 2:11 AM, Lorenzo De Tomasi wrote: > But now the question is which is the correct ISO 8601 timestamp? > 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 or 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100? Both are valid per ISO 8601. Here's the full spec: http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/4021199/ISO_8601_2004_E.zip?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=4021199 From section 4.2.5.1: "Basic format: ?hhmm Example: +0100 ?hh +01 Extended format: ?hh:mm Example: +01:00" While both are valid, hh:mm is probably more friendly to screen readers. If you're running PHP 5, you can get the full ISO 8601 representation with the_time( 'c' ). Peace, Scott From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 8 11:17:46 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 8 12:01:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hAtom in Wordpress or Php: Iso 8601 timestamp References: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> <11E8AEE8-8CA7-46B2-B94D-481E68B6BFF7@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: Scott Reynen wrote: > Lorenzo De Tomasi wrote: > >> But now the question is which is the correct ISO 8601 timestamp? >> 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 or 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100? > > Both are valid per ISO 8601. True. But it is worth remembering that ISO 8601 encompases a whole range of different datetime formats. The datetime as I write this paragraph could be recorded variously as: 2008-03-08T19:03:12.000000+00:00 20080308T190312Z 2008-W10-6T190312+0000 2008W106T190312.000+0000 2008-068T190312.0Z 2008068T19:03:12Z Most applications do not want to have to parse so many different datetime formats, so specify a subset ("profile") of ISO8601 which they support. The datetime design pattern states that microformats SHOULD use a profile of ISO8601 to use, and that profile SHOULD be RFC 3339 and/or W3CDTF, neither of which support the colon-free UTC offset. Of course, to be annoying, none of the microformats which actually make use of the datetime design pattern (hCalendar, hCard, hAtom, hReview) actionally *do* specify which profile of ISO8601 to use, implying that you can basically choose your favourite ISO8601 date format and use that. 2008W106T190312.000+0000, here I come! In fact, hCard and hReview don't even normatively reference ISO8601, so theoretically First of June 1980 should be allowed, though that's just being plain cruel to parsers! -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 39 days, 1:16.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Sat Mar 8 13:45:52 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Sat Mar 8 13:46:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett Message-ID: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by the admins for 18 months[1]. This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: - Andy is one of our most prolific contributors, this community will be harmed by such a long-term ban. - An 18 month ban does not fit Andy's behavior - it is an unjust punishment. - Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation. - Andy pushes the limits in this community, and because of him, we know what is and is not acceptable in this community. - Andy says what some of the rest of us are thinking, and he shouldn't be banned for such an extreme length of time for voicing his opinion. Andy is one of our most prolific contributors --------------------------------------------- Maybe most of you are unaware of Andy's contributions to this community. I took the time to write a script to download and analyze the entire history on Microformats.org's mailing lists (the script is attached to this e-mail). Here are the top contributors to the microformats-discuss mailing list: andy mabbett - 1133 posts - 9.68% of contributions ryan king - 885 posts - 7.56% of contributions tantek celik - 833 posts - 7.11% of contributions scott reynen - 504 posts - 4.30% of contributions brian suda - 467 posts - 3.99% of contributions david janes - 432 posts - 3.69% of contributions chris messina - 388 posts - 3.31% of contributions charles krempeaux - 233 posts - 1.99% of contributions mike schinkel - 193 posts - 1.65% of contributions dr. ernie prabhakar - 188 posts - 1.61% of contributions danny ayers - 171 posts - 1.46% of contributions kevin marks - 145 posts - 1.24% of contributions ciaran mcnulty - 135 posts - 1.15% of contributions frances berriman - 134 posts - 1.14% of contributions ben ward - 126 posts - 1.08% of contributions bruce d'arcus - 120 posts - 1.02% of contributions paul wilkins - 119 posts - 1.02% of contributions dimitri glazkov - 110 posts - 0.94% of contributions benjamin west - 107 posts - 0.91% of contributions Here are the top-10 contributors to the microformats-new mailing list: manu sporny - 298 posts - 19.13% of contributions martin mcevoy - 238 posts - 15.28% of contributions andy mabbett - 182 posts - 11.68% of contributions scott reynen - 148 posts - 9.50% of contributions brian suda - 62 posts - 3.98% of contributions tantek celik - 37 posts - 2.37% of contributions david janes - 36 posts - 2.31% of contributions guillaume lebleu - 27 posts - 1.73% of contributions frances berriman - 26 posts - 1.67% of contributions julian stahnke - 20 posts - 1.28% of contributions It is quite evident from this data that Andy has produced more than anyone else in this community, even assuming that 10% of the threads that he starts result in a ban on his account. I know of no other community that would treat one of their primary contributors in this manner. An 18 month ban doesn't fit Andy's behavior ------------------------------------------- Banning somebody for 18 months is quite a serious amount of time, and while the admins might not have come to the decision lightly, I do question whether the punishment is justified. If you look at the documented rules that were added/changed due to Andy[2], you will note that a whopping 13 of the 17 are EDITORIAL rules. The other 4 are behavioral rules that Andy has broken in the past (as have several others on the mailing list). I am not defending bad behavior, just noting that part of the reason that Andy is being banned is due to these EDITORIAL rules that he has broken and I don't think that an 18 month ban is justified for breaking editorial rules. His behavior as of late has been much calmer and more respectful, so I see no reason why this ban has appeared, seemingly out of the blue, at this time. Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation -------------------------------------------------------- There is still no documentation as to what Andy has done in the past to warrant this type of ban. In the admin's post to the list, the following was mentioned: > As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those > annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki > history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with > their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better > transparency and accountability. The time to generate transparency and accountability is BEFORE a ban, not after. This is why people are tried as innocent in most parts of the world - you may discover that what you think to be evidence against Andy falls down upon closer examination. This sends a dubious message indeed - "The admins can ban you and then, ex post facto, document the reasons why they banned you". This is backwards. Andy pushes the limits in this community ---------------------------------------- I wouldn't expect that the people that have not started a company, a cause, or tried to change something for the better will fully understand this concept, but here goes. First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. ?Mahatma Gandhi Anyone that has tried to change the status quo knows that good people will fight you just because you are trying to enact change. They do it because they don't know what the world looks like with the change that you are attempting to impose. I know Andy well enough to know that he is fighting to change this community for the better, and while he may not always approach the problem from the proper direction, he does have this community's best interests in mind. Why else would he spend so much time as to become the #1 contributor as far as raw posts to the community go? This behavior to affect constant change should not be punished - it is a recipe for languishing in mediocrity. I've felt this pressure from the admins when working on hAudio and it makes it that much more difficult to volunteer to be treated as a pariah (also known as a new Microformat contributor). I have had more purposeful discussion with people off-list than on-list as of late - most of it revolving around how those that try to push the limits of Microformats are quickly beaten down instead of taken seriously. Writing off Andy Mabbett in this way is further proof, in my mind at least, that the admins don't respect that particular aspect of doing something revolutionary. Pushing the limits should be rewarded, not punished. Andy should not be banned for voicing his opinion ------------------------------------------------- Andy is best known for voicing his opinion quite loudly, and while I don't +1 everything he says, I agree with a great deal of the criticisms he has about this community - namely how the admins operate. You guys make Dick Cheney look downright candid at times. With respect, I have no idea how Drew McLellan, Eric A. Meyer, and Dan Cederholm became admins. Is there a secret handshake? Were they voted into the position? How are these things done? Andy has been a critic as to the somewhat secretive nature of the admins, and this looks like you guys are just beating up on him due to lack of progress made in Microformats over the past 18 months. In other words - he's being turned into a scapegoat for his criticism of how the admins in this community operate and for the lack of progress made. The problem isn't Andy Mabbett - it's the Microformats Process. Closing statements ------------------ This ban turns my stomach. I'm starting to not enjoy working in this community - especially since you've gotten rid of one of the key people that argued with us about the future direction of hAudio. Personally, I butted heads with Andy on numerous occasions with regard to the hAudio uF specification. The result was a better specification because we actually listened to what Andy was saying, instead of taking his curt replies to be disrespectful. I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted completely. I do not see the justification for the length of this ban - no documentation has been provided to back up the claims for the ban. I'm attempting to understand the behavior of the admins - if you respect the members in this community, please make an honest effort in responding to each point in this e-mail. with respect, -- manu [1]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-March/011674.html [2]http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: RDFa Basics in 8 minutes (video) http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/01/07/rdfa-basics/ --------------------------------------- #!/bin/sh # # Retrieves all of the mailing list archive indexes. for year in 2005 2006 2007 2008 ; do for month in January February March April May June July August September October November December ; do echo "Getting $year $month..." wget -O ufdiscuss-$year-$month.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/$year-$month/thread.html wget -O ufnew-$year-$month.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/$year-$month/thread.html done done --------------------------------------- #!/usr/bin/env python # # Analyzes a Mailman mailing list and displays the top-posters. # # @author Manu Sporny import sys, os gPosts = 0 gPostsByUser = {} def dictionaryComparator(a, b): if(a[1] > b[1]): return 1 else: return 0 ## # Sorts a given dictionary and returns an ordered list of items # # @param dictionary the dictionary to sort. def sortItems(dictionary): items = dictionary.items() items.sort(lambda (k1,v1),(k2,v2): cmp(v2,v1)) return [(key, value) for key, value in items] ## # Analayze the files given on the command line. # # @param argv the arguments from the command line # @param stdout standard output for the program. # @param environ the environment variables for the program. def analyze(argv, stdout, environ): global gPosts global gPostsByUser # Get all of the statistics from each HTML file for filename in argv[1:]: #print filename tfile = open(filename, "r") for line in tfile: if("" == line[:3]): name = line[3:].strip().lower() if(name == "david janes -- blogmatrix"): name = "david janes" #print "Name", name if(gPostsByUser.has_key(name)): gPostsByUser[name] += 1 else: gPostsByUser[name] = 1 gPosts += 1 # Dump out the statistics items = sortItems(gPostsByUser) for item in items: print "%20s - %3i posts - %1.2f%% of contributions" % \ (item[0], item[1], (float(item[1])/float(gPosts) * 100.0)) # Call main function if run from command line. # if __name__ == "__main__": analyze(sys.argv, sys.stdout, os.environ) From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 8 14:22:04 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:22:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett Message-ID: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> Manu Sporny wrote: > I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted > completely. I shall be concise, because Manu has already gone into plenty of details, but... +1 -- Toby A Inkster From csarven at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:27:50 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:27:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: I must say I was embarrassed to read Manu's response to Andy's ban due to not speaking out about the ban sooner. I felt that there must have been something that the admins knew better then myself about this 'slowing down the process' business. I was nevertheless shocked to hear about the ban simply knowing that Andy has been far more involved in the community then anyone else (as Manu rightfully pointed out). I had no problems following his contributions and I'm glad he took the time to put them forward. Instead of banning someone that pushes the community forward (at least in my view), why not make use of such great resource and work together? If you feel that someone is holding the community back from moving forward due to their reasoning, then present your case - I'm sure the community will settle on the right approach sooner or later. At least it will be documented. Just my two cents. -Sarven On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping > assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard > data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: > > - Andy is one of our most prolific contributors, this community will be > harmed by such a long-term ban. > - An 18 month ban does not fit Andy's behavior - it is an unjust > punishment. > - Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation. > - Andy pushes the limits in this community, and because of him, we know > what is and is not acceptable in this community. > - Andy says what some of the rest of us are thinking, and he shouldn't > be banned for such an extreme length of time for voicing his opinion. > > Andy is one of our most prolific contributors > --------------------------------------------- > > Maybe most of you are unaware of Andy's contributions to this community. > I took the time to write a script to download and analyze the entire > history on Microformats.org's mailing lists (the script is attached to > this e-mail). Here are the top contributors to the microformats-discuss > mailing list: > > andy mabbett - 1133 posts - 9.68% of contributions > ryan king - 885 posts - 7.56% of contributions > tantek celik - 833 posts - 7.11% of contributions > scott reynen - 504 posts - 4.30% of contributions > brian suda - 467 posts - 3.99% of contributions > david janes - 432 posts - 3.69% of contributions > chris messina - 388 posts - 3.31% of contributions > charles krempeaux - 233 posts - 1.99% of contributions > mike schinkel - 193 posts - 1.65% of contributions > dr. ernie prabhakar - 188 posts - 1.61% of contributions > danny ayers - 171 posts - 1.46% of contributions > kevin marks - 145 posts - 1.24% of contributions > ciaran mcnulty - 135 posts - 1.15% of contributions > frances berriman - 134 posts - 1.14% of contributions > ben ward - 126 posts - 1.08% of contributions > bruce d'arcus - 120 posts - 1.02% of contributions > paul wilkins - 119 posts - 1.02% of contributions > dimitri glazkov - 110 posts - 0.94% of contributions > benjamin west - 107 posts - 0.91% of contributions > > Here are the top-10 contributors to the microformats-new mailing list: > > manu sporny - 298 posts - 19.13% of contributions > martin mcevoy - 238 posts - 15.28% of contributions > andy mabbett - 182 posts - 11.68% of contributions > scott reynen - 148 posts - 9.50% of contributions > brian suda - 62 posts - 3.98% of contributions > tantek celik - 37 posts - 2.37% of contributions > david janes - 36 posts - 2.31% of contributions > guillaume lebleu - 27 posts - 1.73% of contributions > frances berriman - 26 posts - 1.67% of contributions > julian stahnke - 20 posts - 1.28% of contributions > > It is quite evident from this data that Andy has produced more than > anyone else in this community, even assuming that 10% of the threads > that he starts result in a ban on his account. I know of no other > community that would treat one of their primary contributors in this manner. > > An 18 month ban doesn't fit Andy's behavior > ------------------------------------------- > > Banning somebody for 18 months is quite a serious amount of time, and > while the admins might not have come to the decision lightly, I do > question whether the punishment is justified. If you look at the > documented rules that were added/changed due to Andy[2], you will note > that a whopping 13 of the 17 are EDITORIAL rules. The other 4 are > behavioral rules that Andy has broken in the past (as have several > others on the mailing list). I am not defending bad behavior, just > noting that part of the reason that Andy is being banned is due to these > EDITORIAL rules that he has broken and I don't think that an 18 month > ban is justified for breaking editorial rules. > > His behavior as of late has been much calmer and more respectful, so I > see no reason why this ban has appeared, seemingly out of the blue, at > this time. > > Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation > -------------------------------------------------------- > > There is still no documentation as to what Andy has done in the past to > warrant this type of ban. In the admin's post to the list, the following > was mentioned: > > > As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those > > annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki > > history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with > > their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better > > transparency and accountability. > > The time to generate transparency and accountability is BEFORE a ban, > not after. This is why people are tried as innocent in most parts of the > world - you may discover that what you think to be evidence against Andy > falls down upon closer examination. > > This sends a dubious message indeed - "The admins can ban you and then, > ex post facto, document the reasons why they banned you". This is backwards. > > Andy pushes the limits in this community > ---------------------------------------- > > I wouldn't expect that the people that have not started a company, a > cause, or tried to change something for the better will fully understand > this concept, but here goes. > > First they ignore you. > Then they laugh at you. > Then they fight you. > Then you win. > > ?Mahatma Gandhi > > Anyone that has tried to change the status quo knows that good people > will fight you just because you are trying to enact change. They do it > because they don't know what the world looks like with the change that > you are attempting to impose. I know Andy well enough to know that he is > fighting to change this community for the better, and while he may not > always approach the problem from the proper direction, he does have this > community's best interests in mind. Why else would he spend so much time > as to become the #1 contributor as far as raw posts to the community go? > > This behavior to affect constant change should not be punished - it is a > recipe for languishing in mediocrity. I've felt this pressure from the > admins when working on hAudio and it makes it that much more difficult > to volunteer to be treated as a pariah (also known as a new Microformat > contributor). > > I have had more purposeful discussion with people off-list than on-list > as of late - most of it revolving around how those that try to push the > limits of Microformats are quickly beaten down instead of taken > seriously. Writing off Andy Mabbett in this way is further proof, in my > mind at least, that the admins don't respect that particular aspect of > doing something revolutionary. > > Pushing the limits should be rewarded, not punished. > > Andy should not be banned for voicing his opinion > ------------------------------------------------- > > Andy is best known for voicing his opinion quite loudly, and while I > don't +1 everything he says, I agree with a great deal of the criticisms > he has about this community - namely how the admins operate. > > You guys make Dick Cheney look downright candid at times. > > With respect, I have no idea how Drew McLellan, Eric A. Meyer, and Dan > Cederholm became admins. Is there a secret handshake? Were they voted > into the position? How are these things done? > > Andy has been a critic as to the somewhat secretive nature of the > admins, and this looks like you guys are just beating up on him due to > lack of progress made in Microformats over the past 18 months. > > In other words - he's being turned into a scapegoat for his criticism of > how the admins in this community operate and for the lack of progress made. > > The problem isn't Andy Mabbett - it's the Microformats Process. > > Closing statements > ------------------ > > This ban turns my stomach. I'm starting to not enjoy working in this > community - especially since you've gotten rid of one of the key people > that argued with us about the future direction of hAudio. > > Personally, I butted heads with Andy on numerous occasions with regard > to the hAudio uF specification. The result was a better specification > because we actually listened to what Andy was saying, instead of taking > his curt replies to be disrespectful. > > I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted completely. > I do not see the justification for the length of this ban - no > documentation has been provided to back up the claims for the ban. > > I'm attempting to understand the behavior of the admins - if you respect > the members in this community, please make an honest effort in > responding to each point in this e-mail. > > with respect, > > -- manu > > [1]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-March/011674.html > [2]http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play > > -- > Manu Sporny > President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. > blog: RDFa Basics in 8 minutes (video) > http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/01/07/rdfa-basics/ > > --------------------------------------- > #!/bin/sh > # > # Retrieves all of the mailing list archive indexes. > > for year in 2005 2006 2007 2008 ; > do > for month in January February March April May June July August > September October November December ; > do > echo "Getting $year $month..." > wget -O ufdiscuss-$year-$month.html > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/$year-$month/thread.html > > wget -O ufnew-$year-$month.html > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/$year-$month/thread.html > done > done > > --------------------------------------- > #!/usr/bin/env python > # > # Analyzes a Mailman mailing list and displays the top-posters. > # > # @author Manu Sporny > import sys, os > > gPosts = 0 > gPostsByUser = {} > > def dictionaryComparator(a, b): > if(a[1] > b[1]): > return 1 > else: > return 0 > > ## > # Sorts a given dictionary and returns an ordered list of items > # > # @param dictionary the dictionary to sort. > def sortItems(dictionary): > items = dictionary.items() > items.sort(lambda (k1,v1),(k2,v2): cmp(v2,v1)) > return [(key, value) for key, value in items] > > ## > # Analayze the files given on the command line. > # > # @param argv the arguments from the command line > # @param stdout standard output for the program. > # @param environ the environment variables for the program. > def analyze(argv, stdout, environ): > global gPosts > global gPostsByUser > > # Get all of the statistics from each HTML file > for filename in argv[1:]: > #print filename > tfile = open(filename, "r") > for line in tfile: > if("" == line[:3]): > name = line[3:].strip().lower() > if(name == "david janes -- blogmatrix"): > name = "david janes" > #print "Name", name > if(gPostsByUser.has_key(name)): > gPostsByUser[name] += 1 > else: > gPostsByUser[name] = 1 > gPosts += 1 > > # Dump out the statistics > items = sortItems(gPostsByUser) > for item in items: > print "%20s - %3i posts - %1.2f%% of contributions" % \ > (item[0], item[1], (float(item[1])/float(gPosts) * 100.0)) > > # Call main function if run from command line. > # > if __name__ == "__main__": > analyze(sys.argv, sys.stdout, os.environ) > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Sat Mar 8 14:38:45 2008 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:38:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <519fa62f0803081438y6c6747a7r1638a57069faebdb@mail.gmail.com> +1 -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ On 3/8/08, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping > assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard > data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: From supercanadian at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:42:50 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:42:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0803081442v3c19bc44o514368bcacf6720e@mail.gmail.com> Hello On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: [...] > I have had more purposeful discussion with people off-list than on-list as of late Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with this too. A number things I've done lately have been under the banner of Semantic HTML (POSH) when they were probably more appropriate for the uf-new mailing list. I don't know if it's an image problem or some people have been "rubbed" the wrong way, but a number of people I know just don't want to do things on here. (And we've done our work "off list".) Which is unfortunate. I like things to be different. I think Microformats.org -- the mailing lists and the wiki -- provide great place for web developers to work together to improve and sometimes even create new forms of interoperability on the Web. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ From paul.m.wilkins at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:45:51 2008 From: paul.m.wilkins at gmail.com (Paul Wilkins) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:45:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On 3/9/08, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. Well done Manu, I agree completely. +1 -- Paul Wilkins From derrick at pallas.us Sat Mar 8 15:05:04 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Sat Mar 8 15:05:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <47D31BA0.5080005@pallas.us> 1.) Quantity != Quality. (Maybe Web 2.0 decided otherwise, but I'm old school.) 2.) No one person is worth more than the cohesiveness of a community in the case of community development. 3.) Andy != Gandhi. Overthrowing the rule of a foreign power is unrelated to anything that happens in the microformats community or as part of the process. Furthermore, it is a mistake to conflate pushing the limits of the microformats process and its community with pushing the limits of the purpose of the community or of civility. 4.) In August, Andy will no longer be banned from Wikipedia so at least he'll have something to do. Q.v. http://tinyurl.com/25y6y8 ~D > - Andy is one of our most prolific contributors, this community will be > harmed by such a long-term ban. > - An 18 month ban does not fit Andy's behavior - it is an unjust > punishment. > - Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation. > - Andy pushes the limits in this community, and because of him, we know > what is and is not acceptable in this community. > - Andy says what some of the rest of us are thinking, and he shouldn't > be banned for such an extreme length of time for voicing his opinion. > From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Sat Mar 8 21:00:07 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Sat Mar 8 21:00:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D31BA0.5080005@pallas.us> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <47D31BA0.5080005@pallas.us> Message-ID: <47D36ED7.8020500@digitalbazaar.com> Derrick, I'd like to address each of your statements as they seem to be assuming things that were not said in the post to the mailing list. Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > 1.) Quantity != Quality. (Maybe Web 2.0 decided otherwise, but I'm old > school.) The argument that quantity == quality was never made. A set of data points were given noting Andy at the top of the lists. It would be quite daft to make an argument stating that quantity == quality. The point I was making was that one can't look at those numbers and write off Andy Mabbett's contributions to this community any more than they can write off Ryan King, Tantek, Scott Reynen, Brian Suda and David Janes's contributions. They have all had a large impact on this community. > 2.) No one person is worth more than the cohesiveness of a community in > the case of community development. Agreed. Nobody is arguing against that point. I fail to see how Andy Mabbett has single-handedly caused the cohesiveness of this community to be greatly diminished. If anything, I would fault the way these issues have been handled for causing harm to the cohesiveness of this community. Namely, lack of administrative transparency and undocumented banning of this community's members. Andy's not completely innocent, nor are the admins without fault. > 3.) Andy != Gandhi. Overthrowing the rule of a foreign power is > unrelated to anything that happens in the microformats community or as > part of the process. Furthermore, it is a mistake to conflate pushing > the limits of the microformats process and its community with pushing > the limits of the purpose of the community or of civility. Ha! You are correct. Andy certainly isn't Gandhi. Far from it. Andy is no saint - he has his flaws, as do we all. Note that I am going to no trouble to argue against the prior 1-2 month bans that have been imposed on Andy. Those bans were short enough to not strike a nerve, even if they were not well documented. On the other hand, an 18 month ban raises several red flags. Andy's incivility has been primarily directed at the admins and has been focused on how they process administrative issues. He asks very important questions about how this community governs itself. He is often ignored by the admins, which results in heated arguments further resulting in a 1-2 month ban. We would like to believe that we are all equals here, that ideas are more important than the person behind the idea, and that the rules apply equally to all of us. Andy points out every occurrence of when the principles above are broken, especially when one of the admins are the ones that break the rules, and has thus gained the ire of the admins and some of the community. > 4.) In August, Andy will no longer be banned from Wikipedia so at least > he'll have something to do. Q.v. http://tinyurl.com/25y6y8 It is a shame that you so easily toss aside his many contributions to this community. I hope you didn't mean to be as snide as the language in the statement above conveys. The link to the Wikipedia ban is helpful, though. It is what I would have expected to see prior to Andy's 18 month ban. -- manu -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: RDFa Basics in 8 minutes (video) http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/01/07/rdfa-basics/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sun Mar 9 04:46:43 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sun Mar 9 04:46:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] FYI: Microformats, accessibility, RDFa and Massachusetts Message-ID: <21e523c20803090546w7648bcc0g8a363c4e6e5df89b@mail.gmail.com> [All text below from the posts, not from me] http://www.snee.com/bobdc.blog/2008/03/accessibility_problems_with_mi.html Part of my job is investigating new technologies that we might want or need to support on the Mass.Gov portal. A colleague brought microformats to my attention a year or so ago. Although I found it alluring?re-using standard markup to provide richer content?there were troubling accessibility issues. [...] The abbr design pattern is also used by some to provide translations. Unless someone wants to declare that there is a One True Language, this is not only problematic for people using AT, it not semantically defensible. [...] There has been resistance from the microformats community to addressing these conflicts. This is dismaying since one their basic tenets is to give precedence to use "in the wild" and this is how AT products actually behave. There was a big hullaballoo about this in May 2007, but there has been no change since then. This leads me to believe that the microformats folks just do not care about accessibility to the extent that I need to. If Massachusetts pursues enriching our content, RDFa seems a more likely candidate. We prefer to adopt things that have been created and promulgated by standards bodies: they are more stable, the deliberative process surfaces and resolves problems beforehand, and are the only reliable basis for interoperability. http://realtech.burningbird.net/semweb/accessibility-and-microformats/ Standards by general consensus rarely works out. For instance, the HTML5 working group has 504 members. How the heck can you get anything accomplished when you have 504 members? -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From info at weborganics.co.uk Sun Mar 9 12:06:07 2008 From: info at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Sun Mar 9 12:06:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Include pattern strawman Message-ID: <1205093167.15650.25.camel@weborganicscouk> Hello all I proposed an alternative to the include pattern called the class create method, and over the last few days have been trying to get it to work. http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-strawman#Use_a_Class_Create_method anyway to cut a long story short I found it too difficult to build a parser that would actually do this, too complex (for my skill). so I simplified it: first create a normal vcard Martin McEvoy, WebOrganics, with an ID attribute for the field you would like to include in the same way as the regular include pattern then "included" it like this: DarkstarServer, using a instead of an the @title attribute explicitly references the name of the ID you want to include. I have tested this theory and it works Very well, so well that I have managed to build a demo to show you how this works. source file marked up with two ID's and Three Includes: http://darkstarserver.co.uk/test/index.html XSL Stylesheet used in the demo to perform the transformation: http://darkstarserver.co.uk/test/replace.xsl My only Issue with this method is using the @title attribute to reference an ID, Is this bad?, to me It seems like a much better alternative to using empty anchor text links. Anyway What do you all think? Thanks Martin McEvoy From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Sun Mar 9 12:33:53 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Sun Mar 9 12:34:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On 8 Mar 2008, at 21:45, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been > banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping > assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard > data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: I agree completely. An 18 month ban is completely unjustified. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From john at westciv.com Sun Mar 9 14:01:12 2008 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Sun Mar 9 14:01:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <519fa62f0803081438y6c6747a7r1638a57069faebdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <519fa62f0803081438y6c6747a7r1638a57069faebdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0116ABCE-BC41-4E77-8BDB-4FCB5DFCD183@westciv.com> Likewise, john On 09/03/2008, at 9:38 AM, Jeff McNeill wrote: > +1 > > -- > Sincerely, > Jeff McNeill > http://jeffmcneill.com/ > > On 3/8/08, Manu Sporny wrote: >> I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out >> sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been >> banned by >> the admins for 18 months[1]. >> >> This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one >> of >> the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping >> assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard >> data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sun Mar 9 14:25:49 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sun Mar 9 14:25:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <0116ABCE-BC41-4E77-8BDB-4FCB5DFCD183@westciv.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <519fa62f0803081438y6c6747a7r1638a57069faebdb@mail.gmail.com> <0116ABCE-BC41-4E77-8BDB-4FCB5DFCD183@westciv.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803091525p1afadd2fn354434691d0154c@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps a ban on editing wiki pages that are not being championed by Andy would be more appropriate? I'm very sympathetic to the case Ryan, et. al. are making. If the Wiki becomes a battleground for edits over pedantic over-interpretation of the community rules and standards, it will quickly become useless to anyone and a time drain on everyone. On the other hand, Andy has made IMO significant efforts to use, champion and extend microformats. Regards, etc... On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 6:01 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > Likewise, > > john > > > On 09/03/2008, at 9:38 AM, Jeff McNeill wrote: > > > +1 > > > > -- > > Sincerely, > > Jeff McNeill > > http://jeffmcneill.com/ > > > > On 3/8/08, Manu Sporny wrote: > >> I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > >> sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been > >> banned by > >> the admins for 18 months[1]. > >> > >> This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one > >> of > >> the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping > >> assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard > >> data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > John Allsopp > > style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master > about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com > Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org > My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 20:54:56 2008 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Sun Mar 9 20:55:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> Hi all, On Mar 8, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Manu Sporny wrote: >> I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted >> completely. > > I shall be concise, because Manu has already gone into plenty of > details, but... > +1 I don't know about "Unjust" --- I sympathize with the amount of grief the Admins have had to go through because of Andy -- but I do feel that 18 months is a bit severe; especially given that the previous suspension was (if I remember correctly) only a week. I think a suspension of 1-3 months -- along with Andy agreeing to a new code of conduct -- would be more than sufficient. If after that Andy still refuses to admit than his behavior has been in any way problematic or difficult, then I can see grounds for extending the suspension further. -- Ernie P. From hober0 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 22:20:55 2008 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Sun Mar 9 22:21:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: What social networking sites uses XFN to expressrelationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it canbe screen-scraped? References: Message-ID: Hi Roger, > After adding the individual I see a web page containing the link to the > new individual. But when I do View Page Source on that web page I do > not see the XFN stuff on the link. Sounds like the WordPress theme your blog is using doesn't publish the XFN data. I'd recommend filing a bug report with the theme author. -- Edward O'Connor hober0@gmail.com Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem. From lists at allinthehead.com Mon Mar 10 01:40:56 2008 From: lists at allinthehead.com (Drew McLellan) Date: Mon Mar 10 01:41:04 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> On 10 Mar 2008, at 04:54, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > I don't know about "Unjust" --- I sympathize with the amount of > grief the Admins have had to go through because of Andy -- but I do > feel that 18 months is a bit severe; especially given that the > previous suspension was (if I remember correctly) only a week. iirc (and I'll hunt back through and confirm) Andy's first ban was for 7 days. His second ban was for 30 days. I appreciate how an 18 month ban seems harsh when read out of context. When you look at all the rules and regulations we've had to put in place, and pretty much the fact that the group of admins exists at all (there's very little 'admin' work around microformats by design) all because of Andy, it's not so unreasonable. Take into consideration those who have reported that they've been put off contributing because of Andy's behaviour, and I'm sure countless others who have just gone away for the same reason without letting us know. Take into consideration two separate bans of increasing length that resulted in no modification of behaviour. Andy has made positive contributions over time, but those have vastly been outweighed by negative side-effects of his presence. Andy has demonstrated that he's not willing or capable of modifying his behaviour to reduce the negative impact on the community. Unfortunately at that point we've just had to take the bull by the horns and ban him for an extended period. We all need to focus energy and our limited resources on moving microformats forward, not on treading water. The fact that Andy has also been banned for an extended period from Wikipedia is not related, but it is extremely telling. drew. From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Mon Mar 10 01:57:02 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Mon Mar 10 01:57:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom question Message-ID: Morning The schema section of the hAtom spec [1] says: "author. required using hCard. [*]" But the entry author section [2] says: "an Entry SHOULD have at least one Entry Author element" Should this be a MUST? Also in a blog post [3] David Janes suggests that hAtom 0.2 may drop the author and updated/created requirements. Any idea if/when this will happen? I'd like to add hAtom to all our episode aggregations [4] on bbc.co.uk/programmes and authorship and dating are tricky Sorry if I'm being a numpty - just a bit confused michael [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author [3] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ [4] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/documentaries http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Mon Mar 10 02:20:12 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Mon Mar 10 02:20:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20803100320p4a6118f0l118bd4856fc20f6d@mail.gmail.com> There's two different levels of abstraction in the hAtom spec: - the logical model, which maps on to the Atom spec - the physical model, which is the class names etc. Not everything in the logical model has to be present in the physical model (i.e. your hAtom markup). Why? Because we have defaulting rules to decide what they are! On to your questions: - I'll be doing the hAtom 0.2 stuff Real Soon Now ;-) - you can safely assume that the requirement for having the Author element is going to disappear; hAtom 0.2 will have a rule for deciding what the default is, though what that rule is is a mystery The updated date is a little more problematic. My first inclination would be to say find a way to squeeze it in there. My second inclination ... and this is entirely my opinion and probably rubs a lot of people the wrong way ... is just to do it without the updated element and see if the spec catches up with the usage. Regards, etc... On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 5:57 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: > Morning > > The schema section of the hAtom spec [1] says: > > "author. required using hCard. [*]" > > But the entry author section [2] says: > > "an Entry SHOULD have at least one Entry Author element" > > Should this be a MUST? > > Also in a blog post [3] David Janes suggests that hAtom 0.2 may drop the > author and updated/created requirements. Any idea if/when this will happen? > > I'd like to add hAtom to all our episode aggregations [4] on > bbc.co.uk/programmes and authorship and dating are tricky > > Sorry if I'm being a numpty - just a bit confused > > michael > > > > > > > > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema > > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author > > [3] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ > > [4] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/documentaries > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. > If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to this. > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Mon Mar 10 03:39:24 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Mon Mar 10 03:39:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom question In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803100320p4a6118f0l118bd4856fc20f6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/08 10:20, "David Janes" wrote: > > - I'll be doing the hAtom 0.2 stuff Real Soon Now ;-) > - you can safely assume that the requirement for having the Author > element is going to disappear; hAtom 0.2 will have a rule for deciding > what the default is, though what that rule is is a mystery Super - makes life much easier (author = site domain name?!?) > > The updated date is a little more problematic. My first inclination > would be to say find a way to squeeze it in there. My second > inclination ... and this is entirely my opinion and probably rubs a > lot of people the wrong way ... is just to do it without the updated > element and see if the spec catches up with the usage. Yup, that was were we were heading Thanks mate > > Regards, etc... > > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 5:57 AM, Michael Smethurst > wrote: >> Morning >> >> The schema section of the hAtom spec [1] says: >> >> "author. required using hCard. [*]" >> >> But the entry author section [2] says: >> >> "an Entry SHOULD have at least one Entry Author element" >> >> Should this be a MUST? >> >> Also in a blog post [3] David Janes suggests that hAtom 0.2 may drop the >> author and updated/created requirements. Any idea if/when this will happen? >> >> I'd like to add hAtom to all our episode aggregations [4] on >> bbc.co.uk/programmes and authorship and dating are tricky >> >> Sorry if I'm being a numpty - just a bit confused >> >> michael >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema >> >> [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author >> >> [3] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ >> >> [4] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/documentaries >> >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ >> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal >> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. >> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. >> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance >> on it and notify the sender immediately. >> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. >> Further communication will signify your consent to this. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Mon Mar 10 04:06:54 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Mon Mar 10 04:34:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom question In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803100320p4a6118f0l118bd4856fc20f6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803100506qee9352es8b3454f962ae1f29@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 7:39 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: > > On 10/3/08 10:20, "David Janes" wrote: > > > > - I'll be doing the hAtom 0.2 stuff Real Soon Now ;-) > > - you can safely assume that the requirement for having the Author > > element is going to disappear; hAtom 0.2 will have a rule for deciding > > what the default is, though what that rule is is a mystery > > Super - makes life much easier (author = site domain name?!?) That's one option that was discussed. Another was combining it with some sort of "anon" name, such as is used in hReview. After further discussion, we decided to research what people do in the Atom world, as they must come across this problem occasionally too! Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From jrrodgers at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 05:00:36 2008 From: jrrodgers at gmail.com (Jesse Rodgers) Date: Mon Mar 10 05:00:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> Message-ID: <88190c0f0803100600u60eaf9f8hfd490f25592ef662@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 5:40 AM, Drew McLellan wrote: > iirc (and I'll hunt back through and confirm) Andy's first ban was for > 7 days. His second ban was for 30 days. >From 30 days to 18 months seems high but I understand why the action was taken. Although I haven't crossed paths with Andy (largely because I lurk) I do think he was prone to bullying with words. As a lurker I will guess that a barrier to participate for a lot of people are overly aggressive and pedantic remarks that amount to people sitting around saying "UR DOIN IT WRONG" instead of teaching. 99% of the time that is not the case with this community but I have a feeling Andy, with that participation rate, was part of the 1% that made some people afraid to participate. Do people need to toughen up? Yes. But I wonder about an individual's motivations that constantly accuse the 'administrators' of wrong doing and unfair practice yet continuously come back for more. Jesse From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Mon Mar 10 07:57:26 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Mon Mar 10 07:57:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: +1 On 8/3/08 21:45, "Manu Sporny" wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping > assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard > data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: > > - Andy is one of our most prolific contributors, this community will be > harmed by such a long-term ban. > - An 18 month ban does not fit Andy's behavior - it is an unjust > punishment. > - Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation. > - Andy pushes the limits in this community, and because of him, we know > what is and is not acceptable in this community. > - Andy says what some of the rest of us are thinking, and he shouldn't > be banned for such an extreme length of time for voicing his opinion. > > Andy is one of our most prolific contributors > --------------------------------------------- > > Maybe most of you are unaware of Andy's contributions to this community. > I took the time to write a script to download and analyze the entire > history on Microformats.org's mailing lists (the script is attached to > this e-mail). Here are the top contributors to the microformats-discuss > mailing list: > > andy mabbett - 1133 posts - 9.68% of contributions > ryan king - 885 posts - 7.56% of contributions > tantek celik - 833 posts - 7.11% of contributions > scott reynen - 504 posts - 4.30% of contributions > brian suda - 467 posts - 3.99% of contributions > david janes - 432 posts - 3.69% of contributions > chris messina - 388 posts - 3.31% of contributions > charles krempeaux - 233 posts - 1.99% of contributions > mike schinkel - 193 posts - 1.65% of contributions > dr. ernie prabhakar - 188 posts - 1.61% of contributions > danny ayers - 171 posts - 1.46% of contributions > kevin marks - 145 posts - 1.24% of contributions > ciaran mcnulty - 135 posts - 1.15% of contributions > frances berriman - 134 posts - 1.14% of contributions > ben ward - 126 posts - 1.08% of contributions > bruce d'arcus - 120 posts - 1.02% of contributions > paul wilkins - 119 posts - 1.02% of contributions > dimitri glazkov - 110 posts - 0.94% of contributions > benjamin west - 107 posts - 0.91% of contributions > > Here are the top-10 contributors to the microformats-new mailing list: > > manu sporny - 298 posts - 19.13% of contributions > martin mcevoy - 238 posts - 15.28% of contributions > andy mabbett - 182 posts - 11.68% of contributions > scott reynen - 148 posts - 9.50% of contributions > brian suda - 62 posts - 3.98% of contributions > tantek celik - 37 posts - 2.37% of contributions > david janes - 36 posts - 2.31% of contributions > guillaume lebleu - 27 posts - 1.73% of contributions > frances berriman - 26 posts - 1.67% of contributions > julian stahnke - 20 posts - 1.28% of contributions > > It is quite evident from this data that Andy has produced more than > anyone else in this community, even assuming that 10% of the threads > that he starts result in a ban on his account. I know of no other > community that would treat one of their primary contributors in this manner. > > An 18 month ban doesn't fit Andy's behavior > ------------------------------------------- > > Banning somebody for 18 months is quite a serious amount of time, and > while the admins might not have come to the decision lightly, I do > question whether the punishment is justified. If you look at the > documented rules that were added/changed due to Andy[2], you will note > that a whopping 13 of the 17 are EDITORIAL rules. The other 4 are > behavioral rules that Andy has broken in the past (as have several > others on the mailing list). I am not defending bad behavior, just > noting that part of the reason that Andy is being banned is due to these > EDITORIAL rules that he has broken and I don't think that an 18 month > ban is justified for breaking editorial rules. > > His behavior as of late has been much calmer and more respectful, so I > see no reason why this ban has appeared, seemingly out of the blue, at > this time. > > Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation > -------------------------------------------------------- > > There is still no documentation as to what Andy has done in the past to > warrant this type of ban. In the admin's post to the list, the following > was mentioned: > >> As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those >> annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki >> history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with >> their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better >> transparency and accountability. > > The time to generate transparency and accountability is BEFORE a ban, > not after. This is why people are tried as innocent in most parts of the > world - you may discover that what you think to be evidence against Andy > falls down upon closer examination. > > This sends a dubious message indeed - "The admins can ban you and then, > ex post facto, document the reasons why they banned you". This is backwards. > > Andy pushes the limits in this community > ---------------------------------------- > > I wouldn't expect that the people that have not started a company, a > cause, or tried to change something for the better will fully understand > this concept, but here goes. > > First they ignore you. > Then they laugh at you. > Then they fight you. > Then you win. > > ?Mahatma Gandhi > > Anyone that has tried to change the status quo knows that good people > will fight you just because you are trying to enact change. They do it > because they don't know what the world looks like with the change that > you are attempting to impose. I know Andy well enough to know that he is > fighting to change this community for the better, and while he may not > always approach the problem from the proper direction, he does have this > community's best interests in mind. Why else would he spend so much time > as to become the #1 contributor as far as raw posts to the community go? > > This behavior to affect constant change should not be punished - it is a > recipe for languishing in mediocrity. I've felt this pressure from the > admins when working on hAudio and it makes it that much more difficult > to volunteer to be treated as a pariah (also known as a new Microformat > contributor). > > I have had more purposeful discussion with people off-list than on-list > as of late - most of it revolving around how those that try to push the > limits of Microformats are quickly beaten down instead of taken > seriously. Writing off Andy Mabbett in this way is further proof, in my > mind at least, that the admins don't respect that particular aspect of > doing something revolutionary. > > Pushing the limits should be rewarded, not punished. > > Andy should not be banned for voicing his opinion > ------------------------------------------------- > > Andy is best known for voicing his opinion quite loudly, and while I > don't +1 everything he says, I agree with a great deal of the criticisms > he has about this community - namely how the admins operate. > > You guys make Dick Cheney look downright candid at times. > > With respect, I have no idea how Drew McLellan, Eric A. Meyer, and Dan > Cederholm became admins. Is there a secret handshake? Were they voted > into the position? How are these things done? > > Andy has been a critic as to the somewhat secretive nature of the > admins, and this looks like you guys are just beating up on him due to > lack of progress made in Microformats over the past 18 months. > > In other words - he's being turned into a scapegoat for his criticism of > how the admins in this community operate and for the lack of progress made. > > The problem isn't Andy Mabbett - it's the Microformats Process. > > Closing statements > ------------------ > > This ban turns my stomach. I'm starting to not enjoy working in this > community - especially since you've gotten rid of one of the key people > that argued with us about the future direction of hAudio. > > Personally, I butted heads with Andy on numerous occasions with regard > to the hAudio uF specification. The result was a better specification > because we actually listened to what Andy was saying, instead of taking > his curt replies to be disrespectful. > > I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted completely. > I do not see the justification for the length of this ban - no > documentation has been provided to back up the claims for the ban. > > I'm attempting to understand the behavior of the admins - if you respect > the members in this community, please make an honest effort in > responding to each point in this e-mail. > > with respect, > > -- manu > > [1]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-March/011674 > .html > [2]http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Mon Mar 10 07:26:56 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Mon Mar 10 08:01:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hAtom question References: Message-ID: <0j0ga5-me9.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Michael Smethurst wrote: > I'd like to add hAtom to all our episode aggregations [4] on > bbc.co.uk/programmes and authorship and dating are tricky Regarding authorship, if you include:
    BBC
    Anywhere on the page (yes -- one little mention in the footer ought to be enough), then that should do the trick. From the hAtom 0.1 spec: | Entry Author | [...] | if the Entry Author is missing | * find the Nearest In Parent
    element(s) with | class name author and that is/are a valid hCard Would that solve your problem? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 40 days, 21:39.] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Mon Mar 10 08:23:19 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Mon Mar 10 08:23:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hAtom question In-Reply-To: <0j0ga5-me9.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <0j0ga5-me9.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20803100923x7e474b23y63515ea4f2c2310e@mail.gmail.com> Excellent point, though the discussion [1] is to get rid of that algorithm since no one understands it, including me. However, as long as the hCard is within the hfeed (which could be the whole page) and marked "author" you'll be OK! Regards, etc... [1] discussion, not decision -- this will all be up for grabs soon if you have an opinion! On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:26 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Michael Smethurst wrote: > > > I'd like to add hAtom to all our episode aggregations [4] on > > bbc.co.uk/programmes and authorship and dating are tricky > > Regarding authorship, if you include: > >
    BBC
    > > Anywhere on the page (yes -- one little mention in the footer ought to be > enough), then that should do the trick. From the hAtom 0.1 spec: > > | Entry Author > | [...] > | if the Entry Author is missing > | * find the Nearest In Parent
    element(s) with > | class name author and that is/are a valid hCard > > Would that solve your problem? > > -- > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS > [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] > [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 40 days, 21:39.] > > The Semantic Web > http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Mon Mar 10 08:39:56 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Mon Mar 10 08:39:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hAtom question In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803100923x7e474b23y63515ea4f2c2310e@mail.gmail.com> References: <0j0ga5-me9.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <21e523c20803100923x7e474b23y63515ea4f2c2310e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 4:23 PM, David Janes wrote: > this will all be up for grabs soon if > you have an opinion! I think the part of the hAtom spec that says: "If the Entry Author is missing * find the Nearest In Parent
    element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard * otherwise the entry is invalid hAtom " Should be amended to: "If the Entry Author is missing * find the Nearest In Parent
    element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard * if there is no suitable
    find the Nearest In Parent element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard * if there is/are no element(s) with class name author find the Nearest In Parent element(s) that is/are a valid hCard * otherwise the entry is invalid hAtom " In the interest of making it as easy as possible to specify an author. I think the
    will still need to be matched 'first' to allow for the existing published content that has managed to comply with the parsing rules as they stand. It's also worth noting that the high occurance of invalid feeds has meant that nearly all feed readers can cope with a missing AUTHOR element in an Atom feed. -Ciaran McNulty From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Mon Mar 10 08:20:54 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Mon Mar 10 13:20:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hAtom question In-Reply-To: <0j0ga5-me9.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <0j0ga5-me9.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Regarding authorship, if you include: > >
    BBC
    > > Anywhere on the page (yes -- one little mention in the footer ought to be > enough), then that should do the trick. The requirement for
    has been under a lot of scrutiny, because of its inability to contain block elements. hReview has more lenient defaulting rules, and I think there was some mention in another thread of hAtom 0.2 fixing this. -Ciaran McNulty From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Mon Mar 10 15:01:26 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Mon Mar 10 15:01:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <141EED11-D2DA-4045-B6C4-95E59858A03B@eatyourgreens.org.uk> On 8 Mar 2008, at 21:45, Manu Sporny wrote: > Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation > -------------------------------------------------------- > > There is still no documentation as to what Andy has done in the > past to > warrant this type of ban. In the admin's post to the list, the > following > was mentioned: > >> As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those >> annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki >> history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with >> their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better >> transparency and accountability. > > The time to generate transparency and accountability is BEFORE a ban, > not after. This is why people are tried as innocent in most parts > of the > world - you may discover that what you think to be evidence against > Andy > falls down upon closer examination. > > This sends a dubious message indeed - "The admins can ban you and > then, > ex post facto, document the reasons why they banned you". This is > backwards. > I think Manu raises an important point here - unlike Wikipedia, there's no clear dispute resolution process for microformats.org. Decisions appear to be made in camera, and released to the group after the fact. That itself could also dissuade people from becoming involved with microformats. If I may ask, how many admins voted to ban Andy, and what was the count on that vote? Also, would it not have been polite, at the very least, for someone to warn Andy that this ban was under consideration, and inform him that he had been banned after it was put in place. Jim Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From karl at w3.org Mon Mar 10 15:07:05 2008 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Mon Mar 10 15:07:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XTiger Templating Language and Microformats Message-ID: <6DEF299F-6CC3-4E80-9595-DCAC08F53552@w3.org> Hi, just to share that there are two articles talking about XTiger templating language. The purpose of the language is to do structure editing, one of the articles is focused on microformats and XTiger. See Templating Language for Authoring Tools http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/03/web-templating-language XTiger is implemented in Amaya. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Mar 10 11:35:15 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Mar 10 19:27:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] =?windows-1252?q?Reviving_=91This_Week_in_Microform?= =?windows-1252?q?ats=92?= Message-ID: Something we're keen to try and do is improve the way microformats ? and especially progress on microformats ? is communicated outside of the microformats community. I had a brief shot of it a little over a year ago with the ?This Week in Microformats? posts to the blog. The reason they died out is because they tended to require long editing stints to produce something of the quality I wanted. A few weeks of being too busy and the idea collapsed. We're going to bring the weekly posts back, but rather than it being my own little initiative it's now properly integrated into our community tools. Each week a new Wiki page will be created to live-edit the ?This Week?? post, and everyone is invited to contribute to it. The headings are set out, so it should be intuitive to contribute items. We're going to follow the same tone and format as the original posts, and post them every Sunday evening (GMT, most likely), so it's there and fresh for Monday morning. If you can write with the same voice that will make editing much easier, but either way it should make it all much easier to compile. The live draft for this week's post is on the wiki now: http:// microformats.org/wiki/ThisWeek/2008-03-10 Thanks, B From ckstjohn at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 21:24:56 2008 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Mon Mar 10 21:24:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> Message-ID: <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 4:40 AM, Drew McLellan wrote: > > I appreciate how an 18 month ban seems harsh when read out of context. > It wasn't read out of context. Manu gave comprehensive context, but your response ignored it. Manu is currently one of the most active and productive contributors (much more active recently than any of the admins) and the lead editor on a complex and important microformat, yet his points have gone completely unanswered. Isn't it a little over the top to ignore what Manu has to say? -cks -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From lists at allinthehead.com Tue Mar 11 03:24:17 2008 From: lists at allinthehead.com (Drew McLellan) Date: Tue Mar 11 03:24:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> On 11 Mar 2008, at 05:24, Christopher St John wrote: > Manu is currently one of the most active and productive contributors > (much more active recently than any of the admins) and the lead > editor on a complex and important microformat, yet his points have > gone completely unanswered. Isn't it a little over the top to ignore > what Manu has to say? Unanswered, yes. Ignored, no. drew. From ckstjohn at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 05:10:06 2008 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Tue Mar 11 05:10:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> Message-ID: <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Drew McLellan wrote: > On 11 Mar 2008, at 05:24, Christopher St John wrote: > > > Manu is currently one of the most active and productive contributors > > (much more active recently than any of the admins) and the lead > > editor on a complex and important microformat, yet his points have > > gone completely unanswered. Isn't it a little over the top to ignore > > what Manu has to say? > > Unanswered, yes. Ignored, no. > Sarcastic answers may be appropriate for individuals (or not) but they certainly are not appropriate for people acting in an official capacity on the list. The admins have stated that it's a lot of work to administer a large, active and growing community. I think those of us that have helped out with similar things are not surprised, but fair enough: it _is_ a lot of work, and as the community grows it will just be more work. The most helpful and well-meaning people in the world will still have conflicts that need resolving, and misunderstandings that need working out. So how about those among the current admins who are sick of it step down and we have some elections? To be followed by an open, documented, public discussion of how the community wishes to be governed? -cks -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From costello at mitre.org Tue Mar 11 04:32:34 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Tue Mar 11 05:45:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF Message-ID: Hi Folks, I have been doing some digging into social networks that use XFN vice FOAF. Thus far, the only social network that I have found which uses XFN is metafilter.com For an example, see: http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 Thanks Scott Reynen for pointing me to it. Supposedly WordPress.com uses XFN but I have not been able to demonstrate this (I have an account on WordPress and have tried repeatedly to demonstrate the use of XFN but to no avail). Conversely, I discovered that FOAF is used by many social networks. Here is a list of 28 social networks that use FOAF: http://esw.w3.org/topic/FoafSites Here's an example of the use of FOAF on livejournal.com http://danbri.livejournal.com/data/foaf (View >> Page Source to see the actual FOAF document) Another thing that I have discovered is that the relationship information provided by FOAF is just "knows", e.g. Alice knows Bob. XFN, on the other hand, has a rich set of relationship information, e.g. Alice is a friend, co-worker, neighbor, and kin of Bob. Furthermore, XFN is a much lighter-weight approach (just add the relationship onto a link) than FOAF (create a complex RDF document). So it would seem that XFN provides a richer and lighter-weight set of information and would be a better choice for social networks. WHY IS THERE SUCH LITTLE USE OF XFN BY SOCIAL NETWORKS? /Roger From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 11 05:59:32 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 11 05:59:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> Weird -- I was just doing the same research and came up with somewhat different conclusion! Sorry for the formatting here -- just cut and paste from a spreadsheet. I'll have a look at your list though to include in my master ;-) Site Format Buzznet FOAF Del.icio.us N/A Digg Custom, hCard Facebook API Flickr XFN Jaiku XFN Last.fm XFN LiveJournal None Ma.gnol.ia XFN, hCard MSN Spaces a mess MySpace API Picassa no Pownce XFN Soup.io no StumbleUpon Custom Twitter API Typepad FOAF Tumblr No export Upcoming Custom Wordpress No Vimeo Custom YouTube Custom Vox XFN Regards, etc... On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I have been doing some digging into social networks that use XFN vice > FOAF. > > Thus far, the only social network that I have found which uses XFN is > metafilter.com For an example, see: > http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 Thanks Scott Reynen for > pointing me to it. > > Supposedly WordPress.com uses XFN but I have not been able to > demonstrate this (I have an account on WordPress and have tried > repeatedly to demonstrate the use of XFN but to no avail). > > Conversely, I discovered that FOAF is used by many social networks. > Here is a list of 28 social networks that use FOAF: > http://esw.w3.org/topic/FoafSites > > Here's an example of the use of FOAF on livejournal.com > http://danbri.livejournal.com/data/foaf (View >> Page Source to see the > actual FOAF document) > > Another thing that I have discovered is that the relationship > information provided by FOAF is just "knows", e.g. Alice knows Bob. > XFN, on the other hand, has a rich set of relationship information, > e.g. Alice is a friend, co-worker, neighbor, and kin of Bob. > Furthermore, XFN is a much lighter-weight approach (just add the > relationship onto a link) than FOAF (create a complex RDF document). > So it would seem that XFN provides a richer and lighter-weight set of > information and would be a better choice for social networks. > > WHY IS THERE SUCH LITTLE USE OF XFN BY SOCIAL NETWORKS? > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From meade.dave at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 06:14:24 2008 From: meade.dave at gmail.com (David Meade) Date: Tue Mar 11 06:14:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel=tag problem Message-ID: <835785410803110714i4876dcb8s87b09136783613c2@mail.gmail.com> Microformat Folks - I was hoping that some of you who are well versed on what is or isn't a microformat specification (vs draft), and specifically the rel=tag microformat could weigh in on an issue that WordPress seems to be having with their rel=tag implementation. Many of us believe they've implemented it incorrectly and thus are excluding WordPress users from getting tags aggregated correctly. The WordPress folks, however seem to disagree and insist that the rel=tag is just a draft and doesn't actually state that spaces should be encoded as + or %20. When tagging posts in wordpress with a two-word tags (lets say the tags are "home movie") ... wordpress replaces the space with a dash (-) resulting in "home-movie" (rather than "home+movie" as is described in the microformats specification) These are of course is an entirely different things as far as most aggregators/tag clouds such as technorati are concerned. Take for example: In wordpress if you provide the following list of comma separated tags for a post: tag1, tag2, tag3 tag4, tag5-tag6, tag7+tag8 WordPress creates the following rel="tag" links: tag1 tag2 tag3-tag4 tag5-tag6 tag7tag8 Notice the following big problems: 1) You can't as a wordpress user even manually use th e+ as the specification requires ... wordpress concatenates the two wholy changing the meaning of the tag 2) Clearly "tag3 tag4" and "tag5-tag6" are both represented the same way. This is a huge problem: Take for example the tags "my wet suit" and "my wet-suit". These are distinct tags that carry different meanings. But in Wordpress they would both result in the same tag URL: "my-wet-suit" even though they are separate tags. Using the only correct way to encode URLs (RFC 1738) they would remain distinct "my%20wet%20suit" and "my%20wet-suit" respectively - or as accepted in HTML (and stated in the microformats specification document): "my+wet+suit" and "my+wet-suit". This is actively preventing WordPress users from having their posts correctly tagged at aggregators. I opened a feature request with WordPress to address this, however they insist that rel=tag is a draft which doesn't state how spaces should be handled, and that the microformat specification should change to do things the way wordpress does (which is ... poorly). If those of us who are concerned about this being implemented incorrectly are wrong, please let me know and I'll forward that education on to the mailing lists that have been discussing this ... but if we're correct in our belief that WordPress has implemented rel=tag incorrectly ... is there anyway that the microformats group could provide them some clarification from the source of the specification? They so far are determined to not fix it. The Wordpress trac ticket related to this can be found at the following url: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/5964 Thanks in advance for any help or clarification, - Dave -- http://www.DavidMeade.com From bbtommorris at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 06:27:22 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Tue Mar 11 06:27:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 1:59 PM, David Janes wrote: > Last.fm XFN last.fm data is available as FOAF also thanks to a translator created by Yves Raimond. > LiveJournal None LiveJournal supports FOAF. > Pownce XFN Pownce supports FOAF too. > Twitter API Twitter uses hCard/XFN and I provide a FOAF translator for data available via their API. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From jrrodgers at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 06:31:45 2008 From: jrrodgers at gmail.com (Jesse Rodgers) Date: Tue Mar 11 06:31:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <88190c0f0803110731i3230cb43r70176e0d1977f81f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Christopher St John wrote: > So how about those among the current admins who are sick > of it step down and we have some elections? To be followed by > an open, documented, public discussion of how the community > wishes to be governed? I believe that establishing governance of the Microformats community would require that the Micformats community actually has some centralized authority that has control over the use of Microformats. I don't see why that is warranted... The Microformats themselves aren't standards, they are patterns and I would consider them best practices at the moment. The site could be deleted tomorrow and the web wouldn't stop nor would the movement. I agree some transparency would be nice. Emails, IRC, wiki edits, and all other things that led to Andy's expulsion would be helpful to understand what happened but to be honest, I don't care. What I do care about is how people (and only a few) jump on the folks that try to keep things focused. Jesse From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 11 06:44:15 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 11 06:44:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803110744j3f8ebef4v81844df46ba427b7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Tom, Thanks. I don't see Twitter friend information being publicly available though; you need to be logged in, do you not? I was compiling this table for my own benefit; once you get to logging it gets worth taking about the API rather than microformats because you don't have to worry about paging through results, such as here [1] Regards, etc... [1] http://twitter.com/scobleizer/friends/ On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom Morris wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 1:59 PM, David Janes wrote: > > Last.fm XFN > > last.fm data is available as FOAF also thanks to a translator created > by Yves Raimond. > > > LiveJournal None > > LiveJournal supports FOAF. > > > Pownce XFN > > Pownce supports FOAF too. > > > Twitter API > > Twitter uses hCard/XFN and I provide a FOAF translator for data > available via their API. > > -- > Tom Morris > http://tommorris.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From lists at allinthehead.com Tue Mar 11 06:54:47 2008 From: lists at allinthehead.com (Drew McLellan) Date: Tue Mar 11 06:54:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 Mar 2008, at 13:10, Christopher St John wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Drew McLellan > wrote: >> On 11 Mar 2008, at 05:24, Christopher St John wrote: >> >>> Manu is currently one of the most active and productive contributors >>> (much more active recently than any of the admins) and the lead >>> editor on a complex and important microformat, yet his points have >>> gone completely unanswered. Isn't it a little over the top to ignore >>> what Manu has to say? >> >> Unanswered, yes. Ignored, no. >> > > Sarcastic answers may be appropriate for individuals (or not) but > they certainly are not appropriate for people acting in an official > capacity on the list. No sarcasm intended, just a statement of fact. Perhaps a little terse, so apologies if it sounded bad. I was simply saying that although Manu's message is presently unanswered, that doesn't mean it will not be answered or that it is being ignored. Also not in an official capacity, just as me. 'Official' stuff is clearly flagged. > The admins have stated that it's a lot of work to administer a > large, active and growing community. I think those of us that > have helped out with similar things are not surprised, but fair > enough: it _is_ a lot of work, and as the community grows it > will just be more work. The most helpful and well-meaning people > in the world will still have conflicts that need resolving, and > misunderstandings that need working out. The simple fact is that the microformats community is *not* a lot of work, save for the disruption Andy has caused. That we even seen to spend effort having this conversation rather than working on microformats is further evidence of that disruption. drew. From ckstjohn at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 07:29:52 2008 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Tue Mar 11 07:29:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ba906450803110829u35bac0f1g7075c764322d8244@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Drew McLellan wrote: > > That we even seen to > spend effort having this conversation rather than working on > microformats is further evidence of that disruption. > Andy was acting as a stalking horse for many community issues. It wasn't fair to let him do that. I think people who allowed him to express their frustration risk-free are starting to feel a bit guilty. I know I am. -cks -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 11 07:36:59 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 11 07:54:09 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN is getting smoked by FOAF References: Message-ID: Costello, Roger L. wrote: > So it would seem that XFN provides a richer and lighter-weight set of > information and would be a better choice for social networks. XFN provides a richer set of *relationship* information, but FOAF provides more than relationship information -- it also includes: 1. hCard-like contact information, but richer in in some ways, having built-in support for a bunch of different instant messaging types (as against hCard where these are hacked onto the "URL" property), different types of URL, etc; 2. topics and interests; 3. group/club membership; All of which are beyond the determined scope of XFN. Having that kind of thing makes FOAF very useful for social-networking type sites. In terms of relationships, FOAF *can* go beyond foaf:knows by taking advantage of two things: 1. Implicit relationships. If two people have the same foaf:workHomepage, then they are probably co-workers. 2. FOAF is RDF. You can mix and match RDF vocabularies. http://vocab.org/relationship/ -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 41 days, 21:39.] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From scott at randomchaos.com Tue Mar 11 08:05:06 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Mar 11 08:05:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D76373B-ED4E-44AA-9678-58781EDDA8AF@randomchaos.com> On Mar 11, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Christopher St John wrote: > Sarcastic answers may be appropriate for individuals (or not) but > they certainly are not appropriate for people acting in an official > capacity on the list. Drew can clarify whether he was being sarcastic, but I'd like to clarify another point: unless otherwise stated, all messages from anyone on the admin list are acting in a *personal*, not official capacity. Also, many of those on the admin list are at a conference right now, so will be slow to respond in either capacity. Peace, Scott From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Tue Mar 11 08:37:15 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Tue Mar 11 08:44:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D6B53B.8080008@digitalbazaar.com> Drew McLellan wrote: > The simple fact is that the microformats community is *not* a lot of > work, save for the disruption Andy has caused. That we even seen to > spend effort having this conversation rather than working on > microformats is further evidence of that disruption. Drew, We are spending effort having this conversation because governance is vital to the health of this community. Talking about the method employed to execute this ban is certainly not a waste of time. Talking about contributions of community members is certainly not a waste of time, either. If nobody had a problem with the admins' decision, you would have seen my initial e-mail and silence thereafter. However, there have been a number of people that have voiced a similar concern. To date, 10 people have voiced concern about the length of Andy's ban and the methods used to ban him. That is a clear indicator that there is a disconnect between the admins and the community. This isn't just about Andy - it is also about the methods employed by the admins to come to this decision: - Lack of a documented process for bans. - Lack of proper documentation leading up to Andy's ban. - A vote count for the admins (for and against). At the very least, if we don't have a process in place, we should follow Wikipedia's ban procedure[2]. To place the blame of this "disruption" squarely on Andy's shoulders is to ignore the fact that the admins are the ones that brought about the 18 month ban. It also ignores the fact that proper due diligence was not performed before the ban. This would be happening if it were Andy, or anybody else on this list. We are spending the effort to have this conversation because we don't like what we're seeing. Just to be clear, here's what the expectations are: - The admins reply to each point in the initial e-mail that started this thread[1] - The admins create a procedure for banning individuals from the Microformats community. - The admins fully document Andy's ban, similar in scope to Wikipedia[2] If you want to focus on making this community run smoother, focus on those things and the next time something like this happens, we won't have to re-hash this discussion. -- manu [1]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-March/011713.html [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pigsonthewing -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: RDFa Basics (video) http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/01/07/rdfa-basics From lists at allinthehead.com Tue Mar 11 09:04:01 2008 From: lists at allinthehead.com (Drew McLellan) Date: Tue Mar 11 10:08:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] SitePoint HTML Reference beta Message-ID: Looks like the new SitePoint HTML Reference site (just launched today in beta) has a nice section on microformats: http://reference.sitepoint.com/html/microformats As it's a beta launch, I'm sure the guys at SitePoint would appreciate any technical feedback. drew. From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Tue Mar 11 09:13:22 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Tue Mar 11 10:19:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Request for Microformats.org MediaWiki SQL data Message-ID: <47D6BDB2.1030504@digitalbazaar.com> This is a request for the Microformats.org MediaWiki MySQL database data. If one of the admins could do a mysqldump of the database (or selected tables) and place it onto a public HTTP/FTP site, that would be ideal. WARNING: Do not dump the password or e-mail field for the user table. I'd like to run an analysis on the number of contributions made by everyone involved in this community and attempt to write an algorithm to detect edit wars. This request is two-fold: 1. I'm curious to see who the most prolific wiki contributors are and if they have any correlation with the most prolific mailing list contributors. 2. It would be good to have an automatic process that could detect and log wiki edit wars, thus reducing the load on the admins and the rest of the community. -- manu -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: RDFa Basics (video) http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/01/07/rdfa-basics From bbtommorris at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 10:19:02 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Tue Mar 11 10:25:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > So it would seem that XFN provides a richer and lighter-weight set of > > information and would be a better choice for social networks. > > XFN provides a richer set of *relationship* information, but FOAF provides > more than relationship information -- it also includes: > It's not a choice - you can use both, and you can extend your FOAF with other predicates - for example, the Relationships Ontology: http://vocab.org/relationship/ -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 10:42:22 2008 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Tue Mar 11 10:42:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Governance Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D6B53B.8080008@digitalbazaar.com> References: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> <3A096BF0-FD91-4E3B-8510-9A354134F25F@gmail.com> <1F4F5D4B-F0E5-479D-9AAB-86A23CD342B7@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803102224y3ef373e1j2e2879f34d8cdae7@mail.gmail.com> <17B2B2CD-8323-45AC-80C5-C86ED52FD03F@allinthehead.com> <8ba906450803110610n3684f668tffdf67ae421846f6@mail.gmail.com> <47D6B53B.8080008@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <4809CBC8-BB74-400C-B731-75A8AA33972C@gmail.com> Hi Manu, On Mar 11, 2008, at 9:37 AM, Manu Sporny wrote: > To date, 10 people > have voiced concern about the length of Andy's ban and the methods > used > to ban him. That is a clear indicator that there is a disconnect > between > the admins and the community. I encourage you (and everyone) to add your concerns to the governance issues page: http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues I noticed Manu signed "the petition" just recently, which is good. If everyone who though this was important would sign, that would help send a strong signal to the admins. As it is, very few people have -- which also sends a strong signal. :-( -- Ernie P. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 11 12:26:42 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 11 12:27:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN is getting smoked by FOAF Message-ID: Tom Morris wrote: > It's not a choice - you can use both, and you can extend your FOAF > with other predicate Indeed. One could even use XFN with FOAF: Alice Bob Going the other way around:

    Alice Bob.

    Bob Alice.

    -- Toby A Inkster From p at premasagar.com Tue Mar 11 14:53:01 2008 From: p at premasagar.com (Premasagar Rose) Date: Tue Mar 11 14:53:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D70D4D.1010305@premasagar.com> Toby A Inkster wrote: > Going the other way around: > >

    Alice href="#bob">Bob.

    >

    Bob href="#alice">Alice.

    Now that's something I'd never thought of... Prem. -- http://premasagar.com | http://dharmafly.com From bbtommorris at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 15:22:21 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Tue Mar 11 15:22:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: <47D70D4D.1010305@premasagar.com> References: <47D70D4D.1010305@premasagar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 10:53 PM, Premasagar Rose wrote: > Toby A Inkster wrote: > > Going the other way around: > > > >

    Alice > href="#bob">Bob.

    > >

    Bob > href="#alice">Alice.

    > > Now that's something I'd never thought of... > This is using the RDFa syntax. Some people like RDFa syntax, but I think that it can often lead to repetition. In this scenario, you are using XFN rel values to map to foaf:knows. It's probably a better idea to simply use the XFN syntax, and then use a GRDDL profile to map that to the underlying RDF semantics.

    Alice knows Bob

    Bob knows Alice

    is a more natural HTML syntax* (you could go further and replace the 'person' class with an hCard (although you would then have to add extra child elements to these elements to make them into valid hCards). You then put together a GRDDL document which translates the HTML above into the relevant RDF/XML syntax. * It is also representable in HTML 4 and XHTML 1.0. Only a limited subset of RDFa can be represented in HTML 4 or XHTML 1.0 - while the more expressive parts require you use the W3C's RDFa+XHTML 1.1 DTD if you want it to validate. Anyway, that's just my opinion and not strictly on-topic for microformats-discuss. Read the GRDDL Primer at: http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ Ask in #swig on irc.freenode.net or e-mail me off-list if you want to know more. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 11 16:13:57 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 11 16:20:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: <47D70D4D.1010305@premasagar.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803111713j75869655s7fff66ae06e6f94e@mail.gmail.com> Two funny things: - Typepad uses FOAF, but I can't find a single example of non-trivial FOAF files - When I'm searching for foaf & xfn stuff right now on Google, this discussion is already first page... Regards, etc... David From ggb at tid.es Tue Mar 11 21:47:54 2008 From: ggb at tid.es (Gustavo) Date: Tue Mar 11 17:48:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47D76E8A.1080503@tid.es> Hi Tom, Thank you for your answer. Comments inline. Tom Morris wrote: > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Gustavo Garcia Bernardo wrote: >> I was wondering how a web application could publish the support to offer a service for a type of microformat (i.e. hotmail could publish support to add hCards to your agenda and gmaps support to show a geo or addr in a map). >> >> Something like IE8 Activities (Microsoft openservice specification) but oriented to microformats (microservices/microactivities). >> > > I'm not sure there is a compelling need for them at the moment. > Currently if you want to implement a service, you can quite easily > write an Operator plugin. Operator plugins are great but AFAIK they don't follow any standard. I was interested in standard approaches. > Often data from the Web (including > microformatted data) will need pre-processing before submitting to a > service - which would seem to make coming up with a 'service > specification' both difficult and impractical. I don't know why that preprocessing couldn't be specified in the "microservice" specification. > The approach of > specifying a 'web service' language has been fraught with difficulties > - as the current trend towards RESTful services instead of Web > Services Architecture shows. A RESTful service is a Web Service from my perspective, I didn't mean SOAP. > > It would be a good idea to collect alongside microformats and other > formats on the Web (whether embedded in markup or in other formats) > possible services which they are, could or should be compatible with. > If there is a common set of patterns between them, then perhaps it > would be appropriate to standardise them in some way. I don't know why you ned a common set of patterns. You would just need a way for a service to specify that it can be invoked in context X (microformat/format X) and with the parameters a,b,c (that could be fields of that microformat X.a, X.b, X.c). > I may be wrong - in which case, it's probably a good idea if we see if > Microsoft's OpenService stuff gets implemented anywhere outside of > Internet Explorer 8. Hopefully it will be. BR, G. > -- > Tom Morris > http://tommorris.org/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au Tue Mar 11 16:10:38 2008 From: roBman at MobileOnlineBusiness.com.au (Rob Manson) Date: Tue Mar 11 19:45:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Request for Microformats.org MediaWiki SQL data In-Reply-To: <47D6BDB2.1030504@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D6BDB2.1030504@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <1205280638.3050.724.camel@robslap> Hey Manu, here's another way you can get the same data as the admins generally don't seem to have time to respond to system level requests. A few months back I downloaded all the irc logs from: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/ All wiki edits are logged here. Then I used a dirty little script (included below) to build some maps of the following; - Overall history : a map of all wiki edits - Editor history : a map of all the edits grouped by editor - Page history : a map of all edits grouped by page I'm sure the pattern hasn't really changed since I ran this. Basically the top 3 were AndyMabbett, Tantek and ChristopheDucamp - by a long way. And the top 50 page history sorted by number of editors is listed below. NOTE: this is old data. Personally it seems like a herculean effort and persistence is required to contribute to this community and I'm very impressed by anyone who is able to. And requests for basic system level updates, for example useful upgrades to the wiki engine or just being able to contribute open source code (note http://microformats.org/code/ currently just shows a 404 in the body), seem to be piped directly to /dev/null. roBman Page history: =========================================================================== Editors Edits Page --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 139 : 407 : Main Page 133 : 346 : hcard 97 : 246 : hcard-examples-in-wild 81 : 192 : hcalendar 62 : 117 : irc 56 : 84 : irc-people 47 : 173 : hreview 42 : 177 : implementations 42 : 87 : hcalendar-examples-in-wild 41 : 119 : hresume 37 : 225 : hatom 32 : 196 : to-do 30 : 56 : rel-tag 29 : 195 : events 27 : 226 : hatom-issues 27 : 42 : hreview-examples-in-wild 25 : 103 : geo 24 : 209 : species-brainstorming 22 : 35 : Talk:Main Page 20 : 80 : faq 20 : 116 : citation-brainstorming 20 : 108 : hcard-issues 20 : 98 : hcard-brainstorming 19 : 30 : rel-license 17 : 59 : presentations 17 : 69 : posh 16 : 104 : citation-examples 16 : 48 : hcalendar-issues 16 : 21 : xfolk 16 : 33 : process 16 : 19 : xfn-implementations 16 : 26 : hresume-examples-in-wild 16 : 27 : xoxo 15 : 29 : events/2006-03-13-sxsw-microformats 15 : 36 : recipe-brainstorming 15 : 28 : vote-links 15 : 81 : mailing-lists 15 : 30 : hreview-issues 15 : 70 : hcard-faq 15 : 40 : measure-brainstorming 14 : 36 : citation-formats 14 : 79 : media-info-examples 14 : 37 : rel-tag-faq 14 : 57 : include-pattern-feedback 14 : 33 : icons 14 : 17 : Talk:xmdp-faq 13 : 15 : media-info-formats 13 : 29 : hlisting-feedback 13 : 18 : plazes-syntax 13 : 40 : podcasts 13 : 33 : mailing-list-unmoderation 13 : 37 : what-are-microformats 13 : 16 : Talk:posh 13 : 28 : hcalendar-implementations 13 : 266 : advocacy 13 : 54 : press 12 : 34 : picoformats 12 : 27 : podcasts-fr 12 : 14 : Talk:zen-garden 12 : 33 : rest/ahah 12 : 27 : events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner 12 : 17 : citation-irc-meetup 12 : 37 : hcard-examples 12 : 13 : Talk:WikiNode 11 : 18 : hatom-hints 11 : 18 : hcalendar-profile 11 : 17 : photo-note-examples 11 : 96 : species 11 : 20 : hcard-implementations 11 : 18 : User:TimG 11 : 38 : rel-tag-issues 11 : 50 : resume-brainstorming 11 : 30 : hcalendar-brainstorming 11 : 31 : alternates-brainstorming 11 : 62 : currency-examples 11 : 28 : citation 10 : 690 : Special:Log/block 10 : 26 : events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of 10 : 21 : hlisting-proposal 10 : 14 : rest/forms-brainstorming 10 : 23 : adr 10 : 13 : Talk:selected-test-cases-from-the-web 10 : 52 : governance-issues 10 : 11 : Talk:rel-design-pattern 10 : 13 : hbib 10 : 12 : Talk:rest/examples 10 : 33 : events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof 10 : 41 : hcard-cheatsheet 10 : 12 : rel-home-issues 10 : 18 : twitter-syntax 10 : 10 : Talk:datetime-design-pattern 10 : 11 : Talk:chat-examples 10 : 20 : rel-faq 10 : 13 : Talk:rel-enclosure 9 : 20 : mailing-lists-proposals 9 : 45 : buttons #!/usr/bin/perl $, = "\n"; use Data::Dumper; chomp(my @file = `cat $ARGV[0]`); my $history; foreach my $line (@file) { $line =~ /\[\[(.*?)\]\].*\*(.*?)\*/; my $page = $1; my $editor = $2; $editor =~ s/\s+//g; $history->{$page}->{$editor}++; $history->{pages}->{$page}++; $history->{editors}->{$editor}++ } print "Overall wiki history:\n"; print Dumper($history),"\n\n"; my $pages; foreach my $item (keys %{ $history->{pages} }) { my $key = scalar keys %{ $history->{$item} }; $key .= " : ".$history->{pages}->{$item}." : ".$item; $pages->{$key} = $history->{$item}; } my @pages = sort {$b <=> $a} keys %{ $pages }; print "Page history:\n"; print @pages,"\n\n"; my $editors; foreach my $item (keys %{ $history->{editors} }) { $editors->{$history->{editors}->{$item}." : ".$item} = $item; } my @editors = sort {$b <=> $a} keys %{ $editors }; print "Editor history:\n"; print @editors; On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 13:13 -0400, Manu Sporny wrote: > This is a request for the Microformats.org MediaWiki MySQL database > data. If one of the admins could do a mysqldump of the database (or > selected tables) and place it onto a public HTTP/FTP site, that would be > ideal. > > WARNING: Do not dump the password or e-mail field for the user table. > > I'd like to run an analysis on the number of contributions made by > everyone involved in this community and attempt to write an algorithm to > detect edit wars. > > This request is two-fold: > > 1. I'm curious to see who the most prolific wiki contributors are and if > they have any correlation with the most prolific mailing list > contributors. > 2. It would be good to have an automatic process that could detect and > log wiki edit wars, thus reducing the load on the admins and the rest > of the community. > > -- manu > From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 12 05:47:00 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 12 05:47:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803110744j3f8ebef4v81844df46ba427b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20803110744j3f8ebef4v81844df46ba427b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A few days ago I was browsing through Twitter and at somebody's web page I viewed the page source and found XFN being used. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark that page. Since then I have been unable to find any pages on Twitter that contains XFN. Can someone point me to a web page on Twitter which contains XFN? /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of David Janes Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:44 AM To: tom@tommorris.org; Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF Hi Tom, Thanks. I don't see Twitter friend information being publicly available though; you need to be logged in, do you not? I was compiling this table for my own benefit; once you get to logging it gets worth taking about the API rather than microformats because you don't have to worry about paging through results, such as here [1] Regards, etc... [1] http://twitter.com/scobleizer/friends/ On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom Morris wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 1:59 PM, David Janes wrote: > > Last.fm XFN > > last.fm data is available as FOAF also thanks to a translator created > by Yves Raimond. > > > LiveJournal None > > LiveJournal supports FOAF. > > > Pownce XFN > > Pownce supports FOAF too. > > > Twitter API > > Twitter uses hCard/XFN and I provide a FOAF translator for data > available via their API. > > -- > Tom Morris > http://tommorris.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From bbtommorris at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 06:36:25 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Wed Mar 12 06:43:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20803110744j3f8ebef4v81844df46ba427b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > A few days ago I was browsing through Twitter and at somebody's web > page I viewed the page source and found XFN being used. Unfortunately, > I didn't bookmark that page. Since then I have been unable to find any > pages on Twitter that contains XFN. Can someone point me to a web page > on Twitter which contains XFN? > Almost every profile page. http://twitter.com/tommorris View source and search for rel="contact". It's there! -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From angus at pobox.com Wed Mar 12 11:53:27 2008 From: angus at pobox.com (Angus McIntyre) Date: Wed Mar 12 07:13:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20803110744j3f8ebef4v81844df46ba427b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1622.66.17.182.210.1205351607.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > A few days ago I was browsing through Twitter and at somebody's web > page I viewed the page source and found XFN being used. Unfortunately, > I didn't bookmark that page. Since then I have been unable to find any > pages on Twitter that contains XFN. Can someone point me to a web page > on Twitter which contains XFN? The individual user pages on Twitter contain XFN. For example: http://twitter.com/microformats The only catch here is that the only relation represented is 'contact', and the link is to the user's Twitter page rather than an external site. However, you could do a two-stage parse: follow the link to the user's Twitter page, and then look for a link with 'rel="me"' to discover their website (because links to the user's website are also XFN-marked, using the 'me' relation). Angus From info at weborganics.co.uk Wed Mar 12 06:27:24 2008 From: info at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Wed Mar 12 07:32:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN is getting smoked by FOAF In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803110659m108c9158vb1f64cdb2d6b6177@mail.gmail.com> <21e523c20803110744j3f8ebef4v81844df46ba427b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205332044.26856.4.camel@weborganicscouk> hello roger All the user pages on twitter have xfn attached to people who they are following using rel="contact" in hcard sample: Jack Dorsey >From Tantek's page http://tinyurl.com/2y62zn I haven't seen much else though, hope this helps. Martin. On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 09:47 -0400, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > A few days ago I was browsing through Twitter and at somebody's web > page I viewed the page source and found XFN being used. > Unfortunately, > I didn't bookmark that page. Since then I have been unable to find > any > pages on Twitter that contains XFN. Can someone point me to a web > page > on Twitter which contains XFN? From jason.karns at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 08:09:29 2008 From: jason.karns at gmail.com (Jason Karns) Date: Wed Mar 12 08:09:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices In-Reply-To: <47D76E8A.1080503@tid.es> References: <47D76E8A.1080503@tid.es> Message-ID: <1005d65f0803120909t58710b22o5e87ddb268b85497@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Gustavo wrote: > > I may be wrong - in which case, it's probably a good idea if we see if > > Microsoft's OpenService stuff gets implemented anywhere outside of > > Internet Explorer 8. Mike Kaply has produced another microformats-related extension for Firefox that uses IE8's Activities. http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2008/03/07/microsoft-activities-for-firefox-new-version/ ~Jason From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Mar 12 08:17:43 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Mar 12 08:17:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] XFN + hCard Message-ID: <21e523c20803120917u310d36f0v2a4512fb2630c6fe@mail.gmail.com> Is there some sort of magic rule for combining hCards and XFN? XFN is marking up a A link with a rel=, i.e. David Janes But I'm seeing this in a lot of places in this sort of context:
    David Janes (dpjanes)
    And various variations. Obviously this is ripe for hCardization, but is there a defined relationship between a XFN A within a hCard. Should there be? Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 12 09:02:19 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 12 10:08:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN + hCard References: <21e523c20803120917u310d36f0v2a4512fb2630c6fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: David Janes wrote: > But I'm seeing this in a lot of places in this sort of context: > >
    > David Janes (dpjanes) >
    > > And various variations. Obviously this is ripe for hCardization, but is > there a defined relationship between a XFN A within a hCard. Should > there be? Under the existing semantics of hCard and XFN, this: Dave means "the owner of is my friend", and this: Dave means "Dave is a contact; Dave owns ". So if we combine those, without adding any additional semantics, then this: Dave means "Dave is a contact; Dave owns ; the owner of is my friend", which is pretty much what you want to express, right? So I don't see why we need to add anything to either spec to cover this situation, because the semantics follow automatically from each spec considered individually. What we *should* add to the next version of XFN is rel="fiend", to keep people on their toes. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 42 days, 23:12.] [Now Playing: Madness - Lovestruck] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Mar 12 10:26:38 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Mar 12 10:26:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN + hCard In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803120917u310d36f0v2a4512fb2630c6fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803121126n2e6e30a5wb39429ecf70fdb71@mail.gmail.com> Thank you. As with many things I've noticed with Microformats though, it's probably that we figure out the clever stuff and write it down because it's not likely people not involved will do so! Anyway, I'll leave it at that. It's in the Google search results now ;-) Regards, etc... On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > David Janes wrote: > > > But I'm seeing this in a lot of places in this sort of context: > > > >
    > > David Janes (dpjanes) > >
    > > > > And various variations. Obviously this is ripe for hCardization, but is > > there a defined relationship between a XFN A within a hCard. Should > > there be? > > Under the existing semantics of hCard and XFN, this: > > Dave > > means "the owner of is my friend", and this: > > > Dave > > > means "Dave is a contact; Dave owns ". So if we > combine those, without adding any additional semantics, then this: > > > href="http://dave.example.com">Dave > > > means "Dave is a contact; Dave owns ; the owner > of is my friend", which is pretty much what you > want to express, right? > > So I don't see why we need to add anything to either spec to cover this > situation, because the semantics follow automatically from each spec > considered individually. > > What we *should* add to the next version of XFN is rel="fiend", to keep > people on their toes. > > -- > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS > [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] > [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 42 days, 23:12.] > [Now Playing: Madness - Lovestruck] > > The Semantic Web > http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From eric at meyerweb.com Thu Mar 13 08:48:12 2008 From: eric at meyerweb.com (Eric A. Meyer) Date: Thu Mar 13 08:48:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] And Nerds Became Kings... Message-ID: Some news of interest: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/yahoo_supports_semantic_web.php -- Eric A. Meyer (eric@meyerweb.com) http://meyerweb.com/ From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Mar 13 09:53:08 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Mar 13 09:53:16 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] And Nerds Became Kings... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 Mar 2008, at 11:48, Eric A. Meyer wrote: > Some news of interest: > > http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/yahoo_supports_semantic_web.php I'm currently away at South By South West, but will try to get a message back to Amit and the team to see if I can get some specific information about what they've done, or have him post here to explain more specifically about how microformats are used in the release. If anyone wants to quick-fire any burning questions at me then go for it, I'll make the guys aware of what people want to know. Cheers, Ben (wearing my Yahoo hat) From karl at w3.org Thu Mar 13 17:18:27 2008 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Thu Mar 13 17:18:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] And Nerds Became Kings... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F7A9C69-1347-4064-8D67-79924B01B17B@w3.org> Le 14 mars 2008 ? 02:53, Ben Ward a ?crit : > If anyone wants to quick-fire any burning questions at me then go > for it, I'll make the guys aware of what people want to know. In the coming weeks, we'll be releasing more detailed specifications that will describe our support of semantic web standards. Initially, we plan to support a number of microformats, including hCard, hCalendar, hReview, hAtom, and XFN. Yahoo! Search will work with the web community to evolve the vocabulary framework for embedding structured data. For starters, we plan to support vocabulary components from Dublin Core, Creative Commons, FOAF, GeoRSS, MediaRSS, and others based on feedback. And, we will support RDFa and eRDF markup to embed these into existing HTML pages. Finally, we are announcing support for the OpenSearch specification, with extensions for structured queries to deep web data sources. -- http://www.ysearchblog.com/archives/000527.html See Open Search Specification http://www.opensearch.org/ http://www.opensearch.org/Community/OpenSearch_software -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Mar 14 13:41:59 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Mar 14 13:42:03 2008 Subject: Regaining focus (Was: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett) In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <30FE722A-E1EC-44DD-AC7A-44406761EF5A@randomchaos.com> On Mar 8, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. I'm likewise back from vacation now, so just now responding to this. > It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. I think it's a mistake to view this as a punishment. It's primarily an attempt to optimize how we spend our time. We decided we were wasting too much time on matters that shouldn't be our focus, and that removing Andy would be the best way to help us refocus on our priorities. I don't mean to imply there's complete agreement about those priorities, just to explain the thinking behind the decision. If there's disagreement about our priorities, that's probably more useful to talk about. > - Andy is one of our most prolific contributors, this community will > be > harmed by such a long-term ban. As others have pointed out, the latter statement does not follow from the former. > - An 18 month ban does not fit Andy's behavior - it is an unjust > punishment. It doesn't really fit Andy's behavior so much as the community's behavior in response to Andy. A better community could maybe maintain focus on microformats with Andy active, but we are not that community. > - Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation. Additional documentation was promised and should be forthcoming, so that everyone can better understand this decision. But I again think it's a mistake to view this from a legal perspective and treat that documentation as some sort of evidence. > - Andy pushes the limits in this community, and because of him, we > know > what is and is not acceptable in this community. That's certainly a bright side, but I don't think it's enough reason to allow the community to lose its focus. > - Andy says what some of the rest of us are thinking, and he shouldn't > be banned for such an extreme length of time for voicing his opinion. I agree; that was not the reason for the ban. I trust Andy will continue voicing his opinion in other forums. Peace, Scott From Scott at randomchaos.com Fri Mar 14 13:58:46 2008 From: Scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Mar 14 13:58:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel=tag problem In-Reply-To: <835785410803110714i4876dcb8s87b09136783613c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <835785410803110714i4876dcb8s87b09136783613c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2008, at 9:14 AM, David Meade wrote: > If those of us who are concerned about this being implemented > incorrectly are wrong, please let me know and I'll forward that > education on to the mailing lists that have been discussing this ... > but if we're correct in our belief that WordPress has implemented > rel=tag incorrectly ... is there anyway that the microformats group > could provide them some clarification from the source of the > specification? I believe you're wrong. I'm not aware of any resolution to the outstanding issue of multi-word tags: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues#Multi-word_tags Here's my suggested resolution, with which I'm sure others will disagree: this is a non-issue because the meaning of tags is contextually dependent on the tag space, so there's no possibility for standardization around what tags mean, whether they're single- or multi-word. Peace, Scott From eric at meyerweb.com Thu Mar 13 12:58:17 2008 From: eric at meyerweb.com (Eric A. Meyer) Date: Fri Mar 14 17:44:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: At 4:45 PM -0500 3/8/08, Manu Sporny wrote: >With respect, I have no idea how Drew McLellan, Eric A. Meyer, and Dan >Cederholm became admins. Is there a secret handshake? Were they voted >into the position? How are these things done? Sorry, I missed this bit until just now. I can only speak for myself. As I understand it, I was invited to be an admin because I co-authored XFN; did early supporting work in developing the general principles of microformats; and have a lot of experience in e-mail list administration. There was no handshake so far as I recall, unless you count the ones that take place between e-mail and IM servers. (Do communication protocols even use "handshakes" any more?) I don't think anyone's ever been voted into the position of anything in the microformats community, because it's really not a process-driven kind of place. There's no process for approving new microformats, for example, so it doesn't much surprise me that there's no hard process for things like appointing list administrators. Heck, back in the days of creating XFN, our only process was that we looked at established usage patterns to derive values, pared down our list of possible values fairly ruthlessly, and didn't include anything that didn't get a unanimous approval of the three of us. And then we wrote it up. That was it. -- Eric A. Meyer (eric@meyerweb.com) http://meyerweb.com/ From philip.tellis at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 18:48:08 2008 From: philip.tellis at gmail.com (Philip Tellis) Date: Fri Mar 14 18:48:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <2e95f9b80803141948t3ec415d7y80dc76b0ae8f3361@mail.gmail.com> On 13/03/2008, Eric A. Meyer wrote: > e-mail and IM servers. (Do communication protocols even use > "handshakes" any more?) yes From jrrodgers at gmail.com Sat Mar 15 19:09:36 2008 From: jrrodgers at gmail.com (Jesse Rodgers) Date: Sat Mar 15 19:09:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Eric A. Meyer wrote: > I don't think anyone's ever been voted into the position of > anything in the microformats community, because it's really not a > process-driven kind of place. There's no process for approving new > microformats, for example, so it doesn't much surprise me that > there's no hard process for things like appointing list > administrators. Heck, back in the days of creating XFN, our only > process was that we looked at established usage patterns to derive > values, pared down our list of possible values fairly ruthlessly, and > didn't include anything that didn't get a unanimous approval of the > three of us. And then we wrote it up. That was it. ...and this process is fine but it lacks credibility to those that don't go to SXSW. There are some that take these things pretty seriously and the loose sense of organization is pretty hard to respect. There is a risk that without the formality, leadership, and strength then why doesn't IE8 rename things and add a little bit here and there? How about Google? They may want their own gCal format because hCal is just a hobby. Does the microformats community require formality in order to retain consistency in those that think they know better? There doesn't seem to be a total community upheaval for either side of this issue, not sure what that means. Maybe people don't care or are like me and on the fence. I think too much formal process, elections, etc get you into an issue where 'he/she with the most time wins' as with any volunteer organization. There is a risk that this could all be replaced and all that work forgotten... details of this thread aside, perhaps a little benevolent leadership is required to direct the community? Jesse From igorwaw at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 03:43:41 2008 From: igorwaw at gmail.com (Igor Wawrzyniak) Date: Sun Mar 16 03:43:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] article on microformats Message-ID: <1b00a2bd0803160443r233c041fs4946805cc96cac2d@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I'm writing an article on microformats, I hope to publish in one of Polish IT magazines. I read the Wiki and other resources, I also began implementing microformats on my websites a few weeks ago, but I still have some questions. Mostly about history or ideas behind microformats, not the technology. I hope it's the right place to ask them. 1) In my article I wrote that the community behind microformats began as a sort of grasroots movement, involving enthusiasts: bloggers, wikipedia editors, people who were into social-networking sites and other web 2.0 ideas etc. Only later it gained support of software companies and standarization bodies. Do you agree with that summary? Remember I need to keep it short, it's only an introduction, I'm mostly writing about technology. 2) I also put microformat movement in opposition to "traditional" semantic web concept, like the one proposed by Tim Berner's Lee. I mean, you're trying to solve the same problem in a completely different way, without introducing new language and requiring webmasters to put a completely new content. Instead, your supporting incremental change, dealing with the simplest problem first. Again, do I got that right? 3) On a more technical note. I'm confused about a rel-tag. Let's say I run a website that has it's internal tagging system, each post is concluded with a few links: this article belongs to category , and . I can also ocassionally link to an external site that supports tagging, like del.icio.us. Do i include a rel-tag on: - internal links - external links - both? FAQ says I'm not supposed to use rel-tag on links in a tag-cloud, why? -- Igor Wawrzyniak From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Sun Mar 16 14:26:24 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Sun Mar 16 14:26:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] article on microformats In-Reply-To: <1b00a2bd0803160443r233c041fs4946805cc96cac2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1b00a2bd0803160443r233c041fs4946805cc96cac2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C4D878B-0BC8-48DB-ACF8-D0020730D72C@ben-ward.co.uk> Hi Igor, On 16 Mar 2008, at 06:43, Igor Wawrzyniak wrote: > 1) In my article I wrote that the community behind microformats began > as a sort of grasroots movement, involving enthusiasts: bloggers, > wikipedia editors, people who were into > social-networking sites and other web 2.0 ideas etc. Only later it > gained support of software companies and standarization bodies. > > Do you agree with that summary? Remember I need to keep it short, it's > only an introduction, I'm mostly writing about technology. Best to have Tantek, Eric or one of the other Technorati alumni answer that, since they were here in the very beginning. I think it would be inaccurate to say that it has the support of ?standardisation bodies?. The microformats are designed and built within this community, and don't get rubber stamped by any other body. The existence of microformats is acknowledged elsewhere, of course, and the spread of hCalendar is probably a principal factor in HTML5 having a new ime element. > 3) On a more technical note. I'm confused about a rel-tag. Let's say I > run a website that has it's internal tagging system, each post is > concluded with a few links: this article belongs to category , > and . I can also ocassionally link to an external > site that supports tagging, like del.icio.us. Do i include a rel-tag > on: > - internal links > - external links > - both? Where you are linking from your content (say a blog post) to a tag space (whether that's Technorati or your own site), you should use rel-tag to indicate that the two pages have a tag relationship. > FAQ says I'm not supposed to use rel-tag on links in a tag-cloud, why? Where you use the ?rel? attribute, you are saying ?The page I'm linking to is a for this page?. So in a blog entry, rel=tag means ?The ?/tags/microformats? page I'm linking to is a TAG for this page?. It's a more subtle meaning than ?this _is_ a tag?. A tag _cloud_ is an aggregation of tags for multiple pieces of content. If you put rel=tag on the tags in a tag cloud, you would be saying ?this is a tag _for the current page_?, which is not what a tag cloud represents. Hope that helps, Ben From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Sun Mar 16 14:09:53 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Sun Mar 16 14:28:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> On 15 Mar 2008, at 22:09, "Jesse Rodgers" wrote: > There is a risk that without the formality, leadership, andstrength > then why doesn't IE8 rename things and add a little bit here > and there? How about Google? They may want their own gCal format > because hCal is just a hobby. Does the microformats community require > formality in order to retain consistency in those that think they know > better? The fact that we are not a formal standards body doesn't seem to be causing an issue. In fact, Microsoft have been extremely positive in their recent hSlice communications: Not misusing the word 'microformat', not breaking hAtom. Everything they did in speccing their own pattern was correct and played-nice with our existing community driven microformats. Similarly, Yahoo's recent communications regarding search enhancements (which use microformats, RDFa and eRDF) draw a clear distinction between the different technologies. To me, it reflects that whilst we ended up in this community-driven, dictatorless body somewhat by evolution, it does work well enough. It's important to remember that the technologies we build on ? HTML and the @class and @rel attributes it provides ? are not controlled by us. We are perhaps the largest organised use of @class, but we have no exclusive claim to the attribute. As such, microformats.org as an organisation has to respect others creating patterns in their own way too. If Google wanted gCal, or Yahoo wanted yWidget or something, they're entitled to it. I think the best way to interact in such an open space is as a community. > I think too much formal process, elections, > etc get you into an issue where 'he/she with the most time wins' as > with any volunteer organization. Completely agreed, it increases the amount of the time the community has to spend on meta-issues. Even in the past 10 days, only a small minority of people have shown an inclination to engage in this meta- discussion. Administration of the community shouldn't interfere so much as to be a constant concern. But, when the community aesthetic isn't conductive to productively working on the microformats themselves, something is astray and where it requires intervention we will do our best to correct it. > There is a risk that this could all be replaced and all that work > forgotten... details of this thread aside, perhaps a little benevolent > leadership is required to direct the community? So long as the output of this community is of high quality, the formats we product will hold authority on the web. I don't currently believe that creating formats with high authority must be created in a highly authoritative environment, though. They're separate issues, and if the format is high quality, the process in which it is built is irrelevant. Cheers, B From meade.dave at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 19:23:16 2008 From: meade.dave at gmail.com (David Meade) Date: Sun Mar 16 19:23:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel=tag problem Message-ID: <835785410803162023o37003ff0p8c0995f771a350bc@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:58:46 -0600, Scott Reynen wrote: > I believe you're wrong. I'm not aware of any resolution to the > outstanding issue of multi-word tags: > http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues#Multi-word_tags But the specification clearly states that spaces should be encoded with + or %20, and wordpress is encoding them as dashes. http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Encoding_issues Doesn't this symanticly change a "multiple word tag" into a "compound-word-tag", and isn't this precisely why the specification states that spaces should be + and %20 (as it is in the HTML standard)? > this is a non-issue because the meaning of tags is > contextually dependent on the tag space, so there's no possibility for > standardization around what tags mean, whether they're single- or > multi-word. I'm not sure I follow what you mean here. Since the meaning of a tag is dependent on the space - whether its a "multiple word tag" vs a "compound-word-tag" ... doesn't that mandate that spaces are encoded distinctly (as both the microformat and html standard state)? In any case thank you for the reply. I look forward to figuring this out, because as it stands wordpress blogs are not aggregated in the same/correct? tag cloud space as posts from other blogging tools are ... and it seems to be because wordpress is determined to change "multiple word tags" into "one-single-compound-word-tag" no matter what. It's very frustrating when trying to participate in distributed groups/conversation/projects and you can't even manually set the spaces correctly (as per the microformat specification stated at the above url) and wont show up in the correct tag listings. - Dave From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Mon Mar 17 00:10:48 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Mon Mar 17 00:10:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel=tag problem In-Reply-To: <835785410803162023o37003ff0p8c0995f771a350bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <835785410803162023o37003ff0p8c0995f771a350bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:23 AM, David Meade wrote: > But the specification clearly states that spaces should be encoded > with + or %20, and wordpress is encoding them as dashes. > http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Encoding_issues It's a SHOULD, not a MUST - + or %20 is best practice, but wordpress is free to use a different scheme if they already have a system in place that rel-tag is being bolted on to. It would be great if they could change it, but we have to be aware that the concept of tagging both predates and is more widely known than rel-tag. > > this is a non-issue because the meaning of tags is > > contextually dependent on the tag space, so there's no possibility for > > standardization around what tags mean, whether they're single- or > > multi-word. > > I'm not sure I follow what you mean here. It pretty much means aggregation is hard. Aside from issues like encoding of spaces, which we've been discussing here, there's a whole host of other issues. As an example, a wiki about metal might have 'lead' as a tag, whereas a site about dogs might have a 'lead' tag that's a synonym for 'leash'. This is the reason that URL prefixes are included in the semantics of tagging - different tagspaces will associate different meanings with different tags, compound or otherwise. Aggregation where URLs are discarded is always going to be a lossy process at best and that applies to character encoding too. -Ciaran McNulty From igorwaw at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 11:14:16 2008 From: igorwaw at gmail.com (Igor Wawrzyniak) Date: Mon Mar 17 11:14:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] article on microformats In-Reply-To: <4C4D878B-0BC8-48DB-ACF8-D0020730D72C@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <1b00a2bd0803160443r233c041fs4946805cc96cac2d@mail.gmail.com> <4C4D878B-0BC8-48DB-ACF8-D0020730D72C@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <1b00a2bd0803171214h6ac02bb7r32cb372f8e7194fb@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Ben Ward wrote: > > 1) In my article I wrote that the community behind microformats began > > as a sort of grasroots movement, involving enthusiasts: bloggers, > > wikipedia editors, people who were into > > social-networking sites and other web 2.0 ideas etc. Only later it > > gained support of software companies and standarization bodies. > > > > Do you agree with that summary? Remember I need to keep it short, it's > > only an introduction, I'm mostly writing about technology. > > Best to have Tantek, Eric or one of the other Technorati alumni > answer that, since they were here in the very beginning. Technorati was involved from the beginning? I noticed they use microformats. > I think it would be inaccurate to say that it has the support of > 'standardisation bodies'. OK, I'll drop that part. > > FAQ says I'm not supposed to use rel-tag on links in a tag-cloud, why? > > Where you use the 'rel' attribute, you are saying 'The page I'm > linking to is a for this page'. So in a blog entry, > rel=tag means 'The '/tags/microformats' page I'm linking to is a TAG > for this page'. It's a more subtle meaning than 'this _is_ a tag'. All clear now. Thanks. -- Igor Wawrzyniak From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Mar 17 13:49:09 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Mar 17 13:49:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] article on microformats In-Reply-To: <1b00a2bd0803171214h6ac02bb7r32cb372f8e7194fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1b00a2bd0803160443r233c041fs4946805cc96cac2d@mail.gmail.com> <4C4D878B-0BC8-48DB-ACF8-D0020730D72C@ben-ward.co.uk> <1b00a2bd0803171214h6ac02bb7r32cb372f8e7194fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Igor Wawrzyniak wrote: >> Best to have Tantek, Eric or one of the other Technorati alumni >> answer that, since they were here in the very beginning. > > Technorati was involved from the beginning? I noticed they use > microformats. Technorati's developer wiki is unfortunately no longer available, but you can see some early documentation there in the Internet Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20050311030245/http://developers.technorati.com/wiki And if you look at the few names on those early drafts, most of them worked at Technorati at the time. Peace, Scott From john at westciv.com Mon Mar 17 14:27:52 2008 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Mon Mar 17 14:28:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> Ben, > Even in the past 10 days, only a small minority of people have shown > an inclination to engage in this meta-discussion. there might be cultural reasons for that. I for myself have bitten my tongue, as I've found these discussions tend to produce negative outcomes. But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely evidence that people don't care. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 14:54:30 2008 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Mon Mar 17 14:54:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Who cares? Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> Message-ID: Hi John et al, On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:27 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely > evidence that people don't care. If people *do* care, I encourage them to sign the "petition" on governance-issues, as you have: http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues#Petition Hopefully that will give the Admin list a better sense for who *does* care. Thanks, -- Ernie P. From karl at w3.org Mon Mar 17 15:10:30 2008 From: karl at w3.org (Karl Dubost) Date: Mon Mar 17 15:10:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> Message-ID: Le 18 mars 2008 ? 07:27, John Allsopp a ?crit : > there might be cultural reasons for that. > I for myself have bitten my tongue, as I've found these discussions > tend to produce negative outcomes. > But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely > evidence that people don't care. for what is worth, same here. Silence doesn't mean lack of understanding or care for the topic. I mostly agree with what Manu said. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool From wilson.jim.r at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 15:17:15 2008 From: wilson.jim.r at gmail.com (Jim R. Wilson) Date: Mon Mar 17 15:17:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> Message-ID: David Janes said: > I'm very sympathetic to the case Ryan, > et. al. are making. If the Wiki becomes a battleground for edits over > pedantic over-interpretation of the community rules and standards, it > will quickly become useless to anyone and a time drain on everyone. I read the how-to-play article on Microformats.org[1], and a great deal of the items there are, as Manu pointed out, editorial preferences - which indicate that MediaWiki is very much the wrong choice for Microformats documentation. You don't want people to rename headings? Don't use MediaWiki. You don't want people to use Talk pages to discuss things? Don't use MediaWiki. You don't want people to relegate articles to Categories for organization? Don't use MediaWiki. You don't want people making stylistic or global changes? Don't user MediaWiki. Also, item #24 really irks me - it starts "If you notice that someone is iteratively editing a page (say by watching the IRC channel, or the Special:Recentchanges page) that you'd like to edit, consider waiting at least 10 minutes after the most recent edit before doing so,..." If you want to have protection against "iterative" editing, don't use MediaWiki, use Moinmoin (which will warn users if you're editing an article). To expect people to detect whether you're editing something, and take steps so as not to interrupt you is lunacy. Use the "Preview" button rather than so-called "iterative edits". Finally, under the Wiki Cleaning heading at the bottom, it says: "If you see something which you think needs massive cleanup on the wiki, please point it out to admins on the irc channel or microformats-discuss list rather than doing it yourself." Again, if you don't want people taking the initiative to produce and maintain documentation - don't use MediaWiki! Microformats shouldn't have a wiki, they should have a CMS. Something that the admins can execute explicit control over from their ivory-tower control center. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play -- Jim R. Wilson (jimbojw) On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 5:27 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > Ben, > > > > Even in the past 10 days, only a small minority of people have shown > > an inclination to engage in this meta-discussion. > > > there might be cultural reasons for that. > > I for myself have bitten my tongue, as I've found these discussions > tend to produce negative outcomes. > > But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely > evidence that people don't care. > > john > > > John Allsopp > > style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master > about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com > Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org > My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book > > > _______________________________________________ > > > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From supercanadian at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 15:18:02 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Mon Mar 17 15:18:04 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Who cares? Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0803171618g21f86198l91c949b3c749540b@mail.gmail.com> How many people do you think actually have wiki accounts? -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > Hi John et al, > > On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:27 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > > > But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely > > evidence that people don't care. > > If people *do* care, I encourage them to sign the "petition" on > governance-issues, as you have: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues#Petition > > Hopefully that will give the Admin list a better sense for who *does* > care. > > Thanks, > -- Ernie P. From geraldbauer2007 at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 15:33:22 2008 From: geraldbauer2007 at gmail.com (Gerald Bauer) Date: Mon Mar 17 15:33:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Call for Speaker(s) on Microformats for Open Web 2008 Vancouver Conf @ Apr/14+15 Message-ID: <7e7cb8940803171633l31c4655cg1b269dadf059ac2b@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I help to organize the two-day Open Web 2008 Vancouver conference upcoming on April 14+15. The talk deadline closed in January. However, we want to promote Microformats and, thus, have reserved a spot or two if you're interested in speaking. If you're interested, please let me know as soon as possible (with a talk proposal and a little bio for some background). You can find out more about Open Web 2008 online @ http://www.openwebvancouver.ca and the schedule is @ http://www.openwebvancouver.ca/schedule If you have any questions about Open Web 2008 let me know. Cheers. -- Gerald Bauer - Internet Professional - http://geraldbauer.wordpress.com From scott at randomchaos.com Mon Mar 17 15:40:18 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Mon Mar 17 15:41:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> Message-ID: <02C1486D-787D-4C92-9FDA-DDD462DCA23B@randomchaos.com> On Mar 17, 2008, at 4:27 PM, John Allsopp wrote: >> Even in the past 10 days, only a small minority of people have >> shown an inclination to engage in this meta-discussion. > > But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely > evidence that people don't care. It's important (for me, anyway) to make a distinction between caring about meta-issues and engaging in meta-discussion. Some of us care about these issues but care more about microformats themselves, and see these discussions as distracting us from that work. If someone started posting here about funding cancer research I think we'd all object to that, not because we don't care about curing cancer, but simply because that's not the purpose of this community. Peace, Scott From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Tue Mar 18 01:27:30 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Tue Mar 18 01:27:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Who cares? Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0803171618g21f86198l91c949b3c749540b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> <84ce626f0803171618g21f86198l91c949b3c749540b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > How many people do you think actually have wiki accounts? As far as I know they're free to create, aren't they? -Ciaran McNulty From lists at allinthehead.com Tue Mar 18 03:57:37 2008 From: lists at allinthehead.com (Drew McLellan) Date: Tue Mar 18 03:57:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Who cares? Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0803171618g21f86198l91c949b3c749540b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> <84ce626f0803171618g21f86198l91c949b3c749540b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 17 Mar 2008, at 23:18, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > How many people do you think actually have wiki accounts? There are 16,704 wiki accounts currently according to: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Listusers Rather than wishing to be pedantic, this demonstrates that if anything, wiki accounts are *too* simple to create. They are also free as Ciaran points out. If this is an issue that anyone feels strongly about, there really isn't a good excuse not to add your name to the petition. That's the proper way to raise an objection, and keep the volume of meta- discussion on this list to a minimum. Thanks drew. From costello at mitre.org Tue Mar 18 04:31:10 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Tue Mar 18 04:31:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable Message-ID: Hi Folks, Flickr uses XFN. Here is a sample Flickr page that uses XFN: http://www.flickr.com/people/tantek/ At the browser menu select View >> Page Source. Then search for rel= Here's an example usage of XFN within that Flickr page: Jolene_A
    Jolene_A     Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="contact" <<< Metafilter also uses XFN. Here is a sample page that uses XFN: http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 Here's an example usage of XFN within that page: 40 Watt Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="colleague" <<< Now, suppose that I wanted to create a spider application which crawls all social networks that use XFN. Most likely, I would want the spider to collect: 1. Who is the source? That is, who is the individual using XFN to state a relationship? 2. What is the relationship? This is, of course, obtained easily from the value of the rel attribute on the link. 3. Who is the target? That is, who is the other individual in the relationship? Examine the above snippets of code. Does 1. and 3. pop out at you? That is, do you know who are the individuals that are the source and target of the relationship? That information "can" be found on the Flickr and Metafilter sites, but each site does it *differently*. So, the problem with XFN can be stated as this: While XFN does a great job of providing a set of relationship values (friend, contact, co-worker, etc), it provides no means for the automated discovery of the individuals that are the source and target of the relationship. Without information about the source and target individuals, the relationship information is not very useful. You might argue: "Well, the XFN *should* be embedded within an hCard, then you can discover who the source individual is. And the target page should contain an hCard, then you can discover who the target individual is." And I agree that is Best Practice. Unfortunately, this is not mandated and consequently many people don't do it. For example, Flickr and Metafilter don't do it. Nor do any of the other social networks do it. Conversely, consider FOAF. Advogato is a social network that uses FOAF. Here an example FOAF on that network: http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/foaf.rdf At the browser menu select View >> Page Source to see the actual FOAF document. Notice that the individual who is the source of the relationship is clearly listed at the top of the document: Dan Connolly And the individual who is the target of the relationship is clearly identified: jtauber The downside of FOAF is the only built-in relationship is "knows", e.g. "Dan Connolly knows James Tauber." That is, FOAF doesn't possess the richness of expression in terms of relationships. (I know, there are extensions of FOAF to express more than "knows," but as far as I can tell, no social network is using those extensions) The upside of FOAF is that all three pieces of information are available to a spider application: 1. The source individual (e.g. Dan Connolly) 2. The relationship ("knows") 3. The target individual (e.g. James Tauber) I don't see any solution to the problem with XFN. As far as I can see, social networks using XFN cannot be processed by spiders. Only social networks that use FOAF can be processed by spiders. Bummer. Hopefully, I am missing something. I really like the simplicity of XFN and its rich set of relationships. /Roger From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 18 05:40:19 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 18 06:01:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable References: Message-ID: <3bt4b5-l9j.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Costello, Roger L. wrote: > I don't see any solution to the problem with XFN. As far as I can see, > social networks using XFN cannot be processed by spiders. Only social > networks that use FOAF can be processed by spiders. Bummer. > > Hopefully, I am missing something. I really like the simplicity of XFN > and its rich set of relationships. You're not missing much. XFN *can* be useful for robots, but it takes a lot of work. Let's take a look at the RDF model. Now RDF/XML as a syntax is not too friendly for authors, but I'm not going to concentrate on the minutiae of the syntax here: just the underlying model. RDF encodes three things: e.g. X foaf:name "Toby Inkster" X foaf:maker Y Y dc:identifier "http://tobyinkster.co.uk" Y dc:title "TobyInkster.co.uk" and so on. Although these triples seem simple, virtually any information is capable of being represented in this manner. (Although it may not be the easiest or most natural representation of the data.) If we look at where XFN fits into the model, it basically adds a bunch of predicates (which we can imagine to be implicitly in the "xfn:" namespace even if the namespace isn't explicitly declared) like xfn:contact, xfn:me and xfn:sibling. It seems initially that the subject and object of these predicates is undefined, but really when we have: http://bob.example.com xfn:sibling http://dave.example.com what is meant is: X xfn:sibling Y http://bob.example.com foaf:primaryTopic X http://dave.example.com foaf:primaryTopic Y In other words, the two web pages are not siblings -- the primary topics (i.e. people described by the pages) are siblings. XFN right now doesn't define a way of determining the primary topic of a page, and probably never will. But if you need to be able to do determine this, then there are ways and means. FOAF is one possibility; and there is work being done as part of the hCard project to determine the "definitive hCard" for a given URL; failing either of those solutions, heuristics can be used (e.g. spidering out rel="me" links until you find the information you need). Right now it's all a bit undefined and of limited use in automatic cataloguing of human relationships. Also see my second reply (11 Mar 2008, 20:26 UTC) in the "XFN getting smoked by FOAF" thread. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 15:04.] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 18 06:11:52 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 18 06:11:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> I've been working on a social network browser recently and I was preparing to write a blog post called "XFriendN or FOAF (or API)" on what I learned, so I have a few relevant comments. Don't expect I narrative flow to this e-mail, it's a bit of a brain dump ;-) On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Flickr uses XFN. Here is a sample Flickr page that uses XFN: > http://www.flickr.com/people/tantek/ > > At the browser menu select View >> Page Source. Then search for rel= > > Here's an example usage of XFN within that Flickr page: > > > src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/buddyicons/24172116@N08.jpg?12 > 03935044#24172116@N08" > alt="Jolene_A" width="48" height="48" />
    > Jolene_A >     > > Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="contact" <<< Please see Chris Messina's post from last week [1]. Interestingly, he came to the same conclusion I had just the day before -- there's basically only "me" and "contacts" and the reset is gravy. In my browser application, I normal all the relationship into one of these two types (I keep the original relationships, of course). There's a deeper problem with the Flickr XFN results -- it's _paged_, which is totally a nuisance. In this particular case it was easier for me go to the Flickr API to get the contacts than use the XFN data. It would be nice if they offered a pared down page with only XFN results. As an aside, it occurs to me now that we can indicate paged results by add rel="me next" and rel="me prev" to the page navigation links. [1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/ > > Metafilter also uses XFN. Here is a sample page that uses XFN: > http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 > > Here's an example usage of XFN within that page: > > 40 Watt > > Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="colleague" <<< > > Now, suppose that I wanted to create a spider application which crawls > all social networks that use XFN. Most likely, I would want the spider > to collect: > > 1. Who is the source? That is, who is the individual using XFN to > state a relationship? Trivially, the page "http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292" is "me". However, I realize how unsatisfactory an answer this is! Let me make three comments here: 1. As a _recommendation_ -- and microformats really need to make a lot more recommendations IMHO -- I would suggest that the page should should have a link ... at a minimum. Note then that if you navigate then to that home page, there's a whole bunch of natural candidates for rel="me" links: all the other links 2. Extending that thought, they really should have a full hcard wrapped around the "me" link: this would be the profile of "jessamyn". You've now got the profile and the contacts on the same page and are in FOAF-functionality territory. 3. In practice, it's nice to know all sorts of me links even though the user hasn't explicitly done this with "me" links. Google has created a concept of "canonicalization" [2] that can convert a sorta arbitrary URI into a standard representation -- and then convert that back into home, profile, contacts, rss, atom links. Interestingly enough, metafilter is not in their code, though Flickr is. Plugging tantek's flickr page into my browser gives tons of results, but Canonically we figure out that this is "me" for tantek on Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/people/tantek/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/ http://www.flickr.com/people/39039882@N00/ http://www.flickr.com/people/tantek/contacts/ I've re-implemented this in Python, though probably not quite to the standard of Google's JS code. [2] http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/docs/canonical.html 4. I hate the fact that we've never solved the canonical hCard problem (search the archives). I can't afford to visit tens of links just in case there's something interesting on the other side! I think that as I produce XFN information in the future (e.g. [3]) I'm going to add rel="me X" to links, where X is one of "profile", "atom", "rss", "contacts" ... i.e. the terminology that Google uses for describing important pages ... and see if this goes anywhere. [3] http://dpjanes.onaswarm.com > > 2. What is the relationship? This is, of course, obtained easily from > the value of the rel attribute on the link. > > 3. Who is the target? That is, who is the other individual in the > relationship? See previous ;-) > You might argue: "Well, the XFN *should* be embedded within an hCard, > then you can discover who the source individual is. And the target > page should contain an hCard, then you can discover who the target > individual is." And I agree that is Best Practice. Unfortunately, > this is not mandated and consequently many people don't do it. For > example, Flickr and Metafilter don't do it. Nor do any of the other > social networks do it. On the same page here as you. However, these guys do use XFN + hCard. http://davidcrow.jaiku.com/ http://www.last.fm/user/jevonm/friends/ http://ma.gnolia.com/people/aarongustafson/contacts Digg, weirdly enough, uses hCard but not XFN :-( > > Conversely, consider FOAF. Advogato is a social network that uses > FOAF. Here an example FOAF on that network: > > http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/foaf.rdf > FOAF is, quite frankly, an ugly mess. This, based on my experience of trying to code to extract useful information out of it rather than just an opinion I pulled out of the air. I spent way to many hours coding trying to pull info out of FOAF because, well, things seem to be doable in lots of different ways. People don't want a format does _anything_; people want a format that does _something_. FOAF needs recommendations more than XFN does. Here's the sample set of FOAF files I worked with: http://api.hi5.com/rest/profile/foaf/208329359 http://lomac.vox.com/profile/foaf.rdf http://brad.livejournal.com/data/foaf http://johngushue.typepad.com/foaf.rdf http://dpjanes.buzznet.com/user/foaf.xml I've uploaded N3 serializations of two of these to here: http://www.davidjanes.com/images/blogmatrix/vox-foaf.n3 http://www.davidjanes.com/images/blogmatrix/hi5-foaf.n3 Note the different way things such as "weblog" are wrapped -- there's some sort of intermediate node being placed on the Hi5 links. Why? I dunno, but it doesn't make pulling out 'img', 'weblog' etc. links with SPARQL particularly easy. Maybe there's some magic way to do this, but there's only so much digging I'm willing to do. And someone can ask the people at livejournal what 'foaf:image' is, or everyone else what 'foaf:img' does. > > Hopefully, I am missing something. I really like the simplicity of XFN > and its rich set of relationships. > > /Roger I had a great time coding the XFN stuff -- I wrote one piece of code that extracts all the A.rel links, another that pulls out all the hCards, and another that matches them up and I was done. Can probably show you guys a demo by the end of the week if you're interested ;-) Here's [4] a screen shot. [4] http://www.davidjanes.com/images/blogmatrix/2008-03-18%20Tantek.png Regards, etc... David -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 18 07:29:37 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 18 07:51:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1o35b5-l9j.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> David Janes wrote: > FOAF is, quite frankly, an ugly mess. This, based on my experience of > trying to code to extract useful information out of it rather than just > an opinion I pulled out of the air. I spent way to many hours coding > trying to pull info out of FOAF because, well, things seem to be doable > in lots of different ways. Don't try to parse it yourself -- use an RDF parser. I recommend Redland (a.k.a. librdf) -- it's stable, has bindings for a bunch of different language, and feature-wise seems to beat the competition hands down. As far as relationships go, once the FOAF is parsed, it's just a matter of looking for any subjects that have an rdf:type of foaf:Person and one or more foaf:knows predicates. Each foaf:knows predicate will be a resource (i.e. URI) representing a person that the subject knows. In terms of the actual XML representing this kind of information, it's a nightmare to parse, but once the RDF parser has reduced it to subject-predicate-object triples, it's much easier to consume. Recently I've been doing quite a bit of work on rationalising data discovered from RDF and Microformats and integrating them into a single model. Example: http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/hcard (click "cognify") FOAF and microformats *can* work nicely together. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 16:54.] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 18 08:08:55 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 18 08:09:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: <1o35b5-l9j.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> <1o35b5-l9j.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20803180908x628b6c0ct43102c7f755fda5b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > David Janes wrote: > > > FOAF is, quite frankly, an ugly mess. This, based on my experience of > > trying to code to extract useful information out of it rather than just > > an opinion I pulled out of the air. I spent way to many hours coding > > trying to pull info out of FOAF because, well, things seem to be doable > > in lots of different ways. > > Don't try to parse it yourself -- use an RDF parser. I recommend Redland > (a.k.a. librdf) -- it's stable, has bindings for a bunch of different > language, and feature-wise seems to beat the competition hands down. > Thanks -- I've got XFN and FOAF working nicely together too. I'm using SPARQL and rdflib. My issue is not that it's not doable, it's just a lot more difficult than you would think because more or less anything shows up in the data -- not some specific thing. With a typical XML API and Python's ElementTree, I can manipulating data within seconds because everything will fall into a well-defined slot. Same with JSON APIs and simplejson -- that's even better, to tell you the truth, since there's a clearer distinction from dumping the data what's representing a list and what's representing rows. With XFN, I've already done the hard work: normalizing the HTML (using TIDY), hCard parsers, etc. so it's really only regexs. That's ugly in one sense, but there's definite benefits for the publishers. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From costello at mitre.org Tue Mar 18 08:18:53 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Tue Mar 18 08:19:00 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Has the cowpath for these XFN values faded away: friend, co-worker, muse, etc? Message-ID: Hi Folks, Chris Messina wrote[1]: "... you'll find that, by and large, the majority of XFN links on the web are using either rel-contact or rel-me." I have been looking at various social networks for the last week, and Chris' statement is consistent with what I have seen - most web pages just use "contact" or "me". This puzzles me. Microformats are about paving existing cowpaths. I presume the authors of XFN saw a clear cowpath for not only "contact" and "me", but for all the other XFN values, such as "friend", "co-worker", "muse", etc. Has the cowpath for these later values disappeared, and thus are no longer needed? /Roger [1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-ca se-against-xfn/ From costello at mitre.org Tue Mar 18 08:33:56 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Tue Mar 18 08:34:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source andtarget not findable In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks David and Toby. David Janes wrote: > I had a great time coding the XFN stuff -- I wrote one piece of code > that extracts all the A.rel links, another that pulls out all the > hCards, and another that matches them up and I was done. How do you know that the hCard matches to the XFN, particularly if the XFN is not embedded within the hCard? > Can probably show you guys a demo by the end of the week > if you're interested Yes please! /Roger From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 18 08:48:55 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 18 08:48:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source andtarget not findable In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803180948w22c112ebga06e17e5d7c05eaa@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > I had a great time coding the XFN stuff -- I wrote one piece of code > > that extracts all the A.rel links, another that pulls out all the > > hCards, and another that matches them up and I was done. > > How do you know that the hCard matches to the XFN, particularly if the > XFN is not embedded within the hCard? I take your chances ;-) Good point though. -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 18 09:26:20 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 18 09:49:29 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source andtarget not findable References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Costello, Roger L. wrote: > How do you know that the hCard matches to the XFN, particularly if the > XFN is not embedded within the hCard? Effectively, this: Bob Jones says "Bob Jones" has the URL "http://bob.example.com". And this: Bob says that "http://bob.example.com" is the URL for a friend. So it can be inferred that Bob Jones is a friend. Of course, Bob Jone's hCard might link to, say, his workplace's website -- indeed several hCards could link to the same workplace website. So then it becomes more difficult to understand what rel="friend" means when it links to that same website. Are they *all* friends? A better solution would be to the hCard's "uid" property to indicate that one particular URL acts as an identifier for one particular hCard. Then an XFN link to that same URL could unambiguously describe a relationship to that person. I don't know how widespread the use of "uid" is in practise though. My own parser (Cognition) will make up its own UID in the case where none exists, as its internal data model requires a unique identifier (which must conform to IRI syntax) for every object being described. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 18:52.] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From costello at mitre.org Tue Mar 18 10:38:24 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Tue Mar 18 10:38:31 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF Message-ID: Hi Folks, Below is a list of social networks that use XFN (special thanks to David Janes). Following that is a list of social networks that use FOAF. Also is a sample link to a publicly accessible profile in each network that exhibits the use of XFN (or FOAF). To see how XFN is being used, type in the link on your browser, in the browser menu select View >> Page Source, and then search for: rel= David, I was not able to find any pages on Vox that use XFN, can you provide a sample link? Everyone, if you know of other social networks using XFN please let me know and I will add it to the list. Thanks! SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE XFN 1. Flickr http://www.flickr.com/people/tracylee/ 2. Last.fm http://www.last.fm/user/fbellintani/?scrobbling=t1 3. Ma.gnolia http://ma.gnolia.com/people/apartness 4. MetaFilter http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 5. Pownce http://pownce.com/ariel/ 6. Twitter http://twitter.com/t Below is a list of social networks that use FOAF. To see how FOAF is being used, type in the link on your browser, in the browser menu select View >> Page Source. Everyone, if you know of other social networks using FOAF please let me know and I will add it to the list. Thanks! SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE FOAF 1. Advogato http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/foaf.rdf 2. boards.ie http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/foaf.php?u=4 3. Buzznet http://lomac.vox.com/profile/foaf.rdf 4. CrazyLife http://www.crazylife.org/users/gothicxflower/data/foaf 5. DeadJournal http://tadydid.deadjournal.com/data/foaf 6. Ecademy http://www.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=network&op=foafrdf&uid=2006 7. Elgg http://elgg.org/katarinam/foaf 8. FilmTrust http://trust.mindswap.org/cgi-bin/FilmTrust/foaf.cgi?user=golbeck 9. GreatestJournal http://luckygmusic.greatestjournal.com/data/foaf 10. hi5 http://api.hi5.com/rest/profile/foaf/39290024 11. InsaneJournal http://ford.insanejournal.com/data/foaf 12. LiveJournal http://danbri.livejournal.com/data/foaf 13. My OpenLink http://myopenlink.net/dataspace/person/kidehen/foaf.rdf 14. MyOpera http://my.opera.com/kjetilk/xml/foaf 15. Pownce http://pownce.com/adactio/foaf/ 16. Vox http://lomac.vox.com/profile/foaf.rdf /Roger From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 18 12:47:03 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 18 12:47:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20803181347m27526ba9o354c21289654f04c@mail.gmail.com> Also see here, which I just discovered while I was looking for a place to put this info on the Wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-xfn-friends-lists On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Below is a list of social networks that use XFN (special thanks to > David Janes). Following that is a list of social networks that use > FOAF. > > Also is a sample link to a publicly accessible profile in each network > that exhibits the use of XFN (or FOAF). > > To see how XFN is being used, type in the link on your browser, in the > browser menu select View >> Page Source, and then search for: rel= > > David, I was not able to find any pages on Vox that use XFN, can you > provide a sample link? > > Everyone, if you know of other social networks using XFN please let me > know and I will add it to the list. Thanks! > > SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE XFN > > 1. Flickr http://www.flickr.com/people/tracylee/ > > 2. Last.fm http://www.last.fm/user/fbellintani/?scrobbling=t1 > > 3. Ma.gnolia http://ma.gnolia.com/people/apartness > > 4. MetaFilter http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 > > 5. Pownce http://pownce.com/ariel/ > > 6. Twitter http://twitter.com/t > > > Below is a list of social networks that use FOAF. > > To see how FOAF is being used, type in the link on your browser, in the > browser menu select View >> Page Source. > > Everyone, if you know of other social networks using FOAF please let me > know and I will add it to the list. Thanks! > > SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE FOAF > > 1. Advogato http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/foaf.rdf > > 2. boards.ie http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/foaf.php?u=4 > > 3. Buzznet http://lomac.vox.com/profile/foaf.rdf > > 4. CrazyLife > http://www.crazylife.org/users/gothicxflower/data/foaf > > 5. DeadJournal http://tadydid.deadjournal.com/data/foaf > > 6. Ecademy > http://www.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=network&op=foafrdf&uid=2006 > > 7. Elgg http://elgg.org/katarinam/foaf > > 8. FilmTrust > http://trust.mindswap.org/cgi-bin/FilmTrust/foaf.cgi?user=golbeck > > 9. GreatestJournal http://luckygmusic.greatestjournal.com/data/foaf > > 10. hi5 http://api.hi5.com/rest/profile/foaf/39290024 > > 11. InsaneJournal http://ford.insanejournal.com/data/foaf > > 12. LiveJournal http://danbri.livejournal.com/data/foaf > > 13. My OpenLink > http://myopenlink.net/dataspace/person/kidehen/foaf.rdf > > 14. MyOpera http://my.opera.com/kjetilk/xml/foaf > > 15. Pownce http://pownce.com/adactio/foaf/ > > 16. Vox http://lomac.vox.com/profile/foaf.rdf > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From ryan at theryanking.com Tue Mar 18 12:50:59 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Tue Mar 18 12:51:04 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BA9D11E-4B22-4CD7-AF1F-EB231EEA41E3@theryanking.com> On Mar 18, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Below is a list of social networks that use XFN (special thanks to > David Janes). Following that is a list of social networks that use > FOAF. Why email these, why not just put them on the wiki? -ryan From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Tue Mar 18 12:55:21 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Tue Mar 18 12:55:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: <6BA9D11E-4B22-4CD7-AF1F-EB231EEA41E3@theryanking.com> References: <6BA9D11E-4B22-4CD7-AF1F-EB231EEA41E3@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803181355i262a4cdvfb9ddad6377abc54@mail.gmail.com> We just discovered a minute ago there's a place on the wiki for it ;-) On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Ryan King wrote: > On Mar 18, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Below is a list of social networks that use XFN (special thanks to > > David Janes). Following that is a list of social networks that use > > FOAF. > > Why email these, why not just put them on the wiki? > > -ryan > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From john at westciv.com Tue Mar 18 15:25:39 2008 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Tue Mar 18 15:25:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Who cares? Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> <88190c0f0803152009n42ee065fo73d849e8467e58e6@mail.gmail.com> <0E2D2874-4E37-46F0-A164-6DEF4F686BB8@ben-ward.co.uk> <7FD1305C-E0C7-48DB-8C7C-1D5BB84B8BA9@westciv.com> Message-ID: Hi Ernie, done already ;) john On 18/03/2008, at 9:54 AM, Ernest Prabhakar wrote: > Hi John et al, > > On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:27 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > >> But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely >> evidence that people don't care. > > If people *do* care, I encourage them to sign the "petition" on > governance-issues, as you have: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues#Petition > > Hopefully that will give the Admin list a better sense for who > *does* care. > > Thanks, > -- Ernie P. > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book From costello at mitre.org Tue Mar 18 10:09:38 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Tue Mar 18 16:51:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF Message-ID: Hi Folks, Below is a list of social networks that use XFN (special thanks to David Janes). Following that is a list of social networks that use FOAF. Also is a sample link to a publicly accessible profile in each network that exhibits the use of XFN (or FOAF). To see how XFN is being used, type in the link on your browser, in the browser menu select View >> Page Source, and then search for: rel= David, I was not able to find any pages on Vox that use XFN, can you provide a sample link? Everyone, if you know of other social networks using XFN please let me know and I will add it to the list. Thanks! SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE XFN 1. Flickr http://www.flickr.com/people/tracylee/ 2. Last.fm http://www.last.fm/user/fbellintani/?scrobbling=t1 3. Ma.gnolia http://ma.gnolia.com/people/apartness 4. MetaFilter http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 5. Pownce http://pownce.com/ariel/ 6. Twitter http://twitter.com/t Below is a list of social networks that use FOAF. To see how FOAF is being used, type in the link on your browser, in the browser menu select View >> Page Source. Everyone, if you know of other social networks using FOAF please let me know and I will add it to the list. Thanks! SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE FOAF 1. Advogato http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/foaf.rdf 2. boards.ie http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/foaf.php?u=4 3. Buzznet http://lomac.vox.com/profile/foaf.rdf 4. CrazyLife http://www.crazylife.org/users/gothicxflower/data/foaf 5. DeadJournal http://tadydid.deadjournal.com/data/foaf 6. Ecademy http://www.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=network&op=foafrdf&uid=2006 7. Elgg http://elgg.org/katarinam/foaf 8. FilmTrust http://trust.mindswap.org/cgi-bin/FilmTrust/foaf.cgi?user=golbeck 9. GreatestJournal http://luckygmusic.greatestjournal.com/data/foaf 10. hi5 http://api.hi5.com/rest/profile/foaf/39290024 11. InsaneJournal http://ford.insanejournal.com/data/foaf 12. LiveJournal http://danbri.livejournal.com/data/foaf 13. My OpenLink http://myopenlink.net/dataspace/person/kidehen/foaf.rdf 14. MyOpera http://my.opera.com/kjetilk/xml/foaf 15. Pownce http://pownce.com/adactio/foaf/ 16. Vox http://lomac.vox.com/profile/foaf.rdf /Roger From derrick at pallas.us Tue Mar 18 18:57:25 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Tue Mar 18 18:57:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47E08115.6000708@pallas.us> Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Everyone, if you know of other social networks using XFN please let me > know and I will add it to the list. Thanks I should be able to generate a more complete list of sites that use XFN --- including the types of relationships found on each --- some time tonight. ~D From derrick at pallas.us Tue Mar 18 21:17:57 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Tue Mar 18 21:18:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Actual research regarding usage of rel-me, rel-contact, and friends. WAS: Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: <47E08115.6000708@pallas.us> References: <47E08115.6000708@pallas.us> Message-ID: <47E0A205.3070605@pallas.us> Out of a sample of ~150k sites with some XFN, the following XFN rels are used, in order of frequency. (That is, one site gets one vote for an XFN rel used somewhere on the site.) me 65.46% friend 31.82% met 20.81% colleague 19.56% co-worker 14.46% contact 11.15% neighbor 5.00% co-resident 4.45% sweetheart 3.72% sibling 3.03% spouse 2.85% muse 2.79% parent 2.25% crush 1.86% kin 1.83% date 1.12% child 1.12% acquaintance 0.14% Out of a sample of ~15M pages with XFN, the following XFN rels are used, in order of frequency. (That is, one page gets one vote for an XFN rel used somewhere on the page.) me 71.051% friend 22.403% colleague 13.929% met 13.247% co-worker 11.306% contact 11.182% neighbor 3.618% co-resident 2.940% parent 2.698% sweetheart 2.094% muse 1.707% spouse 1.652% sibling 1.398% crush 1.073% kin 0.942% acquaintance 0.641% date 0.612% child 0.603% So, while a large number of sites that use XFN do have "me" somewhere, 35% don't. Furthermore, while the statement by Chris Messina[1] is corrent in asserting that "me" and "contact" are widely used, it is not based on solid research. The above data indicates that "contact" is not nearly as supreme as "me," which is in a different league altogether. On the contrary, "friend," "met," "colleague," and "co-worker" are at least as widely used as "contact." The discrepancy appears to be bias towards the short head of the usage curve. Furthermore, I don't think anyone has really done a survey of non-English usage. I certainly haven't. Many of the sites that I've found that do use more than "me" are non-English, but certainly should not be discounted. Here is a random sampling of sites that do use XFN and the rels are used by each in the last six months and are in the long tail. ziki.com colleague friend me met muse spouse topspeed.com contact friend birdz.sk friend me neighbor pushhit.com met majoke.com co-worker friend met bloguje.cz child co-resident co-worker colleague contact crush date friend kin me met muse neighbor parent sibling spouse sweetheart 11870.com contact me inter.co.yu co-resident colleague contact friend me met neighbor finaltr.com friend muse tractorfan.nl colleague kin me botonturbo.com co-resident colleague contact friend me met tecnosquad.com acquaintance co-resident colleague contact friend me met giovani.it child date friend me met muse wolkanca.com co-resident co-worker contact crush date friend me met muse spouse sweetheart ~D [1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-case-against-xfn/ Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Costello, Roger L. wrote: >> Everyone, if you know of other social networks using XFN please let me >> know and I will add it to the list. Thanks > > I should be able to generate a more > complete list of sites that use XFN --- including the types of > relationships found on each --- some time tonight. ~D > > From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 19 03:02:51 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 19 03:02:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Actual research regarding usage of rel-me, rel-contact, and friends. WAS: Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: <47E0A205.3070605@pallas.us> References: <47E08115.6000708@pallas.us> <47E0A205.3070605@pallas.us> Message-ID: Awesome job Derrick! Thanks! /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Derrick Lyndon Pallas Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 1:18 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: [uf-discuss] Actual research regarding usage of rel-me, rel-contact, and friends. WAS: Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF Out of a sample of ~150k sites with some XFN, the following XFN rels are used, in order of frequency. (That is, one site gets one vote for an XFN rel used somewhere on the site.) me 65.46% friend 31.82% met 20.81% colleague 19.56% co-worker 14.46% contact 11.15% neighbor 5.00% co-resident 4.45% sweetheart 3.72% sibling 3.03% spouse 2.85% muse 2.79% parent 2.25% crush 1.86% kin 1.83% date 1.12% child 1.12% acquaintance 0.14% Out of a sample of ~15M pages with XFN, the following XFN rels are used, in order of frequency. (That is, one page gets one vote for an XFN rel used somewhere on the page.) me 71.051% friend 22.403% colleague 13.929% met 13.247% co-worker 11.306% contact 11.182% neighbor 3.618% co-resident 2.940% parent 2.698% sweetheart 2.094% muse 1.707% spouse 1.652% sibling 1.398% crush 1.073% kin 0.942% acquaintance 0.641% date 0.612% child 0.603% So, while a large number of sites that use XFN do have "me" somewhere, 35% don't. Furthermore, while the statement by Chris Messina[1] is corrent in asserting that "me" and "contact" are widely used, it is not based on solid research. The above data indicates that "contact" is not nearly as supreme as "me," which is in a different league altogether. On the contrary, "friend," "met," "colleague," and "co-worker" are at least as widely used as "contact." The discrepancy appears to be bias towards the short head of the usage curve. Furthermore, I don't think anyone has really done a survey of non-English usage. I certainly haven't. Many of the sites that I've found that do use more than "me" are non-English, but certainly should not be discounted. Here is a random sampling of sites that do use XFN and the rels are used by each in the last six months and are in the long tail. ziki.com colleague friend me met muse spouse topspeed.com contact friend birdz.sk friend me neighbor pushhit.com met majoke.com co-worker friend met bloguje.cz child co-resident co-worker colleague contact crush date friend kin me met muse neighbor parent sibling spouse sweetheart 11870.com contact me inter.co.yu co-resident colleague contact friend me met neighbor finaltr.com friend muse tractorfan.nl colleague kin me botonturbo.com co-resident colleague contact friend me met tecnosquad.com acquaintance co-resident colleague contact friend me met giovani.it child date friend me met muse wolkanca.com co-resident co-worker contact crush date friend me met muse spouse sweetheart ~D [1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-ca se-against-xfn/ Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > Costello, Roger L. wrote: >> Everyone, if you know of other social networks using XFN please let me >> know and I will add it to the list. Thanks > > I should be able to generate a more > complete list of sites that use XFN --- including the types of > relationships found on each --- some time tonight. ~D > > _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From andr3.pt at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 03:21:16 2008 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Wed Mar 19 03:21:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Actual research regarding usage of rel-me, rel-contact, and friends. WAS: Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: References: <47E08115.6000708@pallas.us> <47E0A205.3070605@pallas.us> Message-ID: What I interpreted from Chris' words was that contact and me was the only values _needed_ to achieve contact list portability. Not that the rest should be dropped altogether. I learned that from now on, I should always include the value contact, on top of all other values. XFN exists for more than just contact list portability... -- Andr? Lu?s On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > Awesome job Derrick! > > Thanks! > > /Roger > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org > [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of > Derrick Lyndon Pallas > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 1:18 AM > To: Microformats Discuss > Subject: [uf-discuss] Actual research regarding usage of rel-me, > rel-contact, and friends. WAS: Social Networks that use XFN and Social > Networks that use FOAF > > Out of a sample of ~150k sites with some XFN, the following XFN rels > are > used, in order of frequency. (That is, one site gets one vote for an > XFN > rel used somewhere on the site.) > > me 65.46% > friend 31.82% > met 20.81% > colleague 19.56% > co-worker 14.46% > contact 11.15% > neighbor 5.00% > co-resident 4.45% > sweetheart 3.72% > sibling 3.03% > spouse 2.85% > muse 2.79% > parent 2.25% > crush 1.86% > kin 1.83% > date 1.12% > child 1.12% > acquaintance 0.14% > > > Out of a sample of ~15M pages with XFN, the following XFN rels are > used, > in order of frequency. (That is, one page gets one vote for an XFN rel > used somewhere on the page.) > > me 71.051% > friend 22.403% > colleague 13.929% > met 13.247% > co-worker 11.306% > contact 11.182% > neighbor 3.618% > co-resident 2.940% > parent 2.698% > sweetheart 2.094% > muse 1.707% > spouse 1.652% > sibling 1.398% > crush 1.073% > kin 0.942% > acquaintance 0.641% > date 0.612% > child 0.603% > > So, while a large number of sites that use XFN do have "me" somewhere, > 35% don't. Furthermore, while the statement by Chris Messina[1] is > corrent in asserting that "me" and "contact" are widely used, it is not > > based on solid research. > > The above data indicates that "contact" is not nearly as supreme as > "me," which is in a different league altogether. On the contrary, > "friend," "met," "colleague," and "co-worker" are at least as widely > used as "contact." The discrepancy appears to be bias towards the short > > head of the usage curve. > > Furthermore, I don't think anyone has really done a survey of > non-English usage. I certainly haven't. Many of the sites that I've > found that do use more than "me" are non-English, but certainly should > not be discounted. > > Here is a random sampling of sites that do use XFN and the rels are > used > by each in the last six months and are in the long tail. > > > ziki.com colleague friend me met muse spouse > > topspeed.com contact friend > > birdz.sk friend me neighbor > > pushhit.com met > > majoke.com co-worker friend met > > bloguje.cz child co-resident co-worker colleague contact crush > date > friend kin me met muse neighbor parent sibling spouse sweetheart > > 11870.com contact me > > inter.co.yu co-resident colleague contact friend me met neighbor > > finaltr.com friend muse > > tractorfan.nl colleague kin me > > botonturbo.com co-resident colleague contact friend me met > > tecnosquad.com acquaintance co-resident colleague contact friend me > met > > giovani.it child date friend me met muse > > wolkanca.com co-resident co-worker contact crush date friend me met > muse spouse sweetheart > > ~D > > > [1] > http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2008/03/11/portable-contact-lists-and-the-ca > se-against-xfn/ > > > > Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote: > > Costello, Roger L. wrote: > >> Everyone, if you know of other social networks using XFN please let > me > >> know and I will add it to the list. Thanks > > > > I should be able to generate a more > > complete list of sites that use XFN --- including the types of > > relationships found on each --- some time tonight. ~D > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 19 04:36:31 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 19 04:36:39 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard Message-ID: Hi Folks, Below is a proposal. The proposal is based on the following assertion. ASSERTION An expression of a relationship is useful only if you know who is the source and who is the target of the relationship. EXAMPLE ??? is friends with ??? is not useful. But Alice is friends with Bob is useful. ^ ^ ^ | | | | | | source relationship target ASSERTION, VERSION 2 XFN relationship information is useful only if an *application* (e.g. robot) can dynamically determine who is the source and who is the target of the relationship. PROBLEM WITH XFN TODAY Today, an XFN relationship can be expressed without any indication of who is the source and who is the target of the relationship. Typically, the information about who is the source is present on the web page containing the XFN. But that information can be *anywhere* and in *any form*. Thus, given an *arbitrary web page* containing XFN, it is not possible for a robot application to determine who is the source individual. Ditto for the target individual. At best, the source and target information is obtained with an extreme level of coding effort which is unlikely to be successful with all web pages (natural language processing is required). Note: "The source is the person who created the web page that contains the XFN." That is not correct, as the following example illustrates. Besides, even if it were true (which it's not), a robot application would not know who "created the web page." That information must be embedded within the web page. Ditto for the target. EXAMPLE Here's an example usage of XFN on a Flickr page: Jolene_A
    Jolene_A     Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="contact" <<< Also notice that there is no indication of who is stating this relationship or who is the target of this relationship, i.e. to a robot application this is what the XFN indicates ??? contact ??? which is meaningless. PROPOSAL 1. If XFN is used on a web page then that web page MUST contain an hCard of the person that represents the source of the relationship. Example: Consider a web page that uses XFN: Suppose that the intended source individual is Alice, i.e. Alice is friends with xxx Then somewhere on the web page there MUST be an hCard for Alice, e.g.
    Alice
    2. There MUST be a mechanism that connects the XFN to the hCard that represents the source individual. Or, there MUST be a mechanism on the hCard that connects it to the XFN. 3. The target of the XFN-bearing hyperlink MUST contain an hCard that represents the target individual. And there MUST be some mechanism that connects the XFN to that target individual's hCard. Exception: if the XFN is "me" then the hCard MAY not be repeated in both the web page of the source and the web page of the target. OTHER REQUIREMENTS? Are there any other requirements? Note: I am focusing just on the requirements at the present time. I'd like to collect all of the requirements prior to thinking about how it would be expressed in HTML. /Roger From danbri at danbri.org Wed Mar 19 05:20:08 2008 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Wed Mar 19 05:20:13 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 Mar 2008, at 12:36, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Below is a proposal. The proposal is based on the following > assertion. > > ASSERTION > > An expression of a relationship is useful only if you know who is the > source and who is the target of the relationship. I agree there are issues here, but I doubt you'll get very far trying to mandate things, especially if you're after changes at *both* ends of the hyperlink. On the Web, I don't want standards geeks (even my friends!) telling me just how much or how little I must say about myself in my own pages. Even if I don't say much about myself in http://danbri.org/ it is still my homepage, and people are free to point rel=friend links at it. There's value in connectivity, even without the extra profile fields. It could be used to identify common friends, RSS feeds etc. In other words, it's not place of microformats, or of FOAF or of W3C or of Web site owners to instruct folk on how much they have to say about themselves online. We simply provide vocabulary and formats and leave it to best practice and convention and users and toolmakers and publishers. As far as I understand the microformat approach, from talking with Tantek and others, it shares this characteristic with the FOAF/RDF design: very little is mandatory. Unlike some XML formats which are full of 'must' requirements, both microformats and FOAF/RDF live in a Webby world where 'missing isn't broken' and apps have to make sense of (and aggregate across) partial information. You should also btw note that rel=me is a special case, and in fact an exception to your main argument. For example I could reciprocally assert xfn:me . If this was in both pages, any self-description in the one page would apply to the other, reducing need for further duplication (whether in hcard or FOAF or whatever format). cheers, Dan -- http://danbri.org/ From paul.downey at whatfettle.com Wed Mar 19 05:33:02 2008 From: paul.downey at whatfettle.com (Paul Downey) Date: Wed Mar 19 05:33:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59221ac80803190633k6c8a097aq8d4d8ff4ef4f7bed@mail.gmail.com> > 1. If XFN is used on a web page then that web page MUST contain an > hCard of the person that represents the source of the relationship. MUST is pretty abhorrent to me. I use rel="me" on my blog, which is also my OpenID URI, which is a very strong way of my attaching my OpenID to my flickr, twitter, del.icio.us, pownce, etc profiles. One of the strengths of XFN over FOAF for me is that it separates the concern of expressing a relationship from that of providing contact details. > 2. There MUST be a mechanism that connects the XFN to the hCard that > represents the source individual. Or, there MUST be a mechanism on the > hCard that connects it to the XFN. I don't see the value of the hCard in this scenario, a URI is a great way to identify someone: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/01/urls-are-people-too.html > 3. The target of the XFN-bearing hyperlink MUST contain an hCard that > represents the target individual. And there MUST be some mechanism > that connects the XFN to that target individual's hCard. I can see valid use-cases where the URI being linked is sufficient. > OTHER REQUIREMENTS? > > Are there any other requirements? Yeah, backwards compatibility with XFN as it stands now. Paul -- http://blog.whatfettle.com From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 19 05:52:50 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 19 05:52:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a"source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Dan. Excellent points. Okay, then let's revise it from "Mandatory" to "Best Practice." The Best Practice may be simply stated as such: "If you use XFN in your web page then it is Best Practice to incorporate an hCard in the web page which identifies the source of the relationship." At present there is no motivation for anyone to adopt this Best Practice and we've seen the consequence: few social networks provide a robot-readable way of determining the source individual of an XFN relationship. In those cases, XFN is providing no useful information. So the issue becomes one of enticement. How can we entice (motivate) people that use XFN in their web page to identify the source and target individuals? One way to motivate people is to provide a mechanism that: - connects the XFN to the hCard that represents the source of the relationship - connects the XFN to an hCard that represents the target of the relationship Another way is to create an "XFN validator." This tool warns people: "Please identify the source and target individuals." Other ideas? /Roger From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Mar 19 06:05:37 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Mar 19 06:05:43 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9862D122-B406-4DAC-A962-65E5A39ACA85@randomchaos.com> On Mar 19, 2008, at 6:36 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > 1. If XFN is used on a web page then that web page MUST contain an > hCard of the person that represents the source of the relationship. > 2. There MUST be a mechanism that connects the XFN to the hCard that > represents the source individual. Or, there MUST be a mechanism on > the > hCard that connects it to the XFN. > > 3. The target of the XFN-bearing hyperlink MUST contain an hCard that > represents the target individual. And there MUST be some mechanism > that connects the XFN to that target individual's hCard. > > Exception: if the XFN is "me" then the hCard MAY not be repeated in > both the web page of the source and the web page of the target. I think this could all be simplified into a single rule. rel="me" with an hCard at either end is a legitimate mechanism to connect all XFN relationships on both pages to the single hCard. I see no reason to create a rule that the hCard must be on the same page (#1), only to immediately create an exception to that rule. Putting the hCard on the same page is one way to connect it to the XFN relationships, but I see no reason to prefer it over the alternatives for accomplishing the same goal, e.g. linking to an hCard on another page with rel="me". If anything, I think the latter method should be preferred, following the DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself) principle. So that would leave us with #2 and #3, which are just discussing both ends of XFN relationships. So I'd boil this all down into one simple rule: 1. All people in an XFNetwork MUST be identified via hCard somewhere within the network. My MetaFilter contacts page, for example, needn't represent me via hCard, but could instead point back to my MetaFilter profile with rel="me", which could in turn point to the hCard on my personal website with rel="me." As long as my personal website hCard is within the XFNetwork (even though it may be multiple steps away), I shouldn't need additional (likely redundant) hCards for myself. Peace, Scott From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 19 06:32:44 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 19 06:32:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a"source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: <59221ac80803190633k6c8a097aq8d4d8ff4ef4f7bed@mail.gmail.com> References: <59221ac80803190633k6c8a097aq8d4d8ff4ef4f7bed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Paul. Excellent comments. I too am a big fan of "separation of concerns." However, if there is no way for a robot application to determine in some automated way "who" is "friends with" xxx then the separation of concerns buys me nothing. > a URI is a great way to identify someone: > http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/01/urls-are-people-too.html I'm afraid that URL doesn't do much for me in terms of understanding who that person is. Here's a URL that's in a Flickr page that uses XFN: /photos/24172116@N08/ I think that you'll agree that URL's like this wouldn't be enough for a robot application to create a social graph like this: Alice is friends with Bob, who is a co-worker of Jim, who is neighbors with Alice. You make a very good point that we should not require hCard to be the mechanism for identifying the source individual or the target individual. The individual could be identified through a FOAF document or OpenID or some other (standard) means. Somehow there must be a mechanism for a robot application to consume an *arbitrary document* that contains XFN and be able to determine: - who is the source individual - who is the target individual Earlier I thought that perhaps the hCard for the source individual could connect/point to the XFN. But now you have helped me realize that the connection must come from the XFN: the XFN must connect/point to the hCard or FOAF or OpenID that describes the source individual. What do you think? /Roger From derrick at pallas.us Wed Mar 19 08:08:46 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Wed Mar 19 08:13:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Actual research regarding usage of rel-me, rel-contact, and friends. WAS: Social Networks that use XFN and Social Networks that use FOAF In-Reply-To: References: <47E08115.6000708@pallas.us> <47E0A205.3070605@pallas.us> Message-ID: <47E13A8E.700@pallas.us> Andr? Lu?s wrote: > What I interpreted from Chris' words was that contact and me was the > only values _needed_ to achieve contact list portability. Not that the > rest should be dropped altogether. > There isn't really any other way to interpret what he wrote: If you use Google?s new Social Graph API and actually go looking for XFN data (for example, on Twitter or Flickr or others ), you?ll find that, by and large, the majority of XFN links on the web are using either |rel-contact| or |rel-me|. If you?re lucky, you might find some |rel-friend|s in there, but after rel-me and rel-contact, the use of the other 16 terms falls off considerably. Compound that fact with the minor semantic distinction between ?contacts? and ?friends? on different sites (sites like Dopplr dispense altogether with these terms, opting for ?fellow travelers?) and you quickly begin to wonder if the ?semantic richness? of XFN is really just ?semantic deadweight?. And, in terms of evangelism and potential adoption, this is critical. If 16 of the 18 XFN terms are just cruft, how can we maintain our credibility [?] ... So, with that, I?m no longer going to both with advocating for the complete adoption of XFN. Instead, I?m going to advocate for supporting /Contact List Portability/ by implementing rel-me and rel-contact (a ?subset? of XFN). The above, taken from his post --- though his blog software appears to be having issues right now --- says that 1.) He positively asserts that if YOU look at Twitter, Flickr, and a handful of other sites, you will see that they do use rel-me and rel-contact. 2.) He negatively asserts that you might find others XFN rels in the wild but probably not because they aren't used. 3.) Therefore, XFN sans rel-me and rel-contact is cruft and should be dropped in favor of just rel-me and rel-contact. Statement #1 is flawed because the corpus is not representative; it's a look at sites that were already known to use those formats. My numbers (taken from a current, large web corpus) indicate that #2 is false across the web-at-large. Therefore, I find it hard to support his conclusion. ~D From paul.downey at whatfettle.com Wed Mar 19 08:08:06 2008 From: paul.downey at whatfettle.com (Paul Downey) Date: Wed Mar 19 09:08:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a"source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: <59221ac80803190633k6c8a097aq8d4d8ff4ef4f7bed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59221ac80803190908o2fe7d6dj36c19d5cf4f107ee@mail.gmail.com> Hi Roger! > I too am a big fan of "separation of concerns." However, if there is > no way for a robot application to determine in some automated way "who" > is "friends with" xxx then the separation of concerns buys me nothing. So it might be nice if Flickr pointed to profile pages, which publish hCard identifying the links, e.g: """     ← Photos """ > I'm afraid that URL doesn't do much for me in terms of understanding > who that person is. You know, I don't think link to a vcard is going to help here. Google's social graph search: http://socialgraph-resources.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/samples/findcontacts.html?q=http%3A%2F%2Fflickr.com%2Fphotos%2F24172116%40N08%2F tells me: """ Contacts you link to People who link to you as a contact to flickr.com/photos/24172116@N08/ flickr.com/photos/fiveandlime/ contact flickr.com/photos/tantek/ contact flickr.com/photos/twatson/ contact """ Which is better, IMO, than it saying "Keir", "Tantek", "Tom" because ultimately whilst flickr.com/photos/tantek/ might claim to be Tantek, how I come to trust it's The Tantek is far more subtle and complex than any amount of metacrap in a hCard. Paul -- http://blog.whatfettle.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 19 08:07:33 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 19 10:05:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard References: Message-ID: <5bq7b5-l9j.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Costello, Roger L. wrote: > But Alice is friends with Bob is useful. > ^ ^ ^ > | | | > source relationship target I think that maybe Alice and Bob are plotting something. They keep sending all these encrypted e-mails to each other. Eve and I will get to the bottom of it eventually. Yes, with explicitly included hCards (or another way of specifying information about the people), XFN becomes a *lot* more useful, but I think there is probably still some minimal value in XFN even without this. (As others have pointed out, especially with rel="me".) For many purposes, it would certainly be useful to have a documented method for converting the "physical" XFN model of: [url1] friend [url2] to the "logical" XFN model of: [person1] friend [person2] However, I don't think requiring each URL to carry an hCard is necessarily the best way of doing that. It would certainly work, but it's a very blunt tool because: 1. The owners of url1 and url2 might not want to provide contact information. 2. url1 or url2 might be a non-HTML resource (e.g. PDFs, images, "mailto:" URLs, etc. The solution I've been working on is that when an XFN relationship is found taking the form "[url1] friend [url2]", assume that it really means: [ Person: represented-by = url1 ] friend [ Person: represented-by = url2 ] Then use a whole variety of methods to learn as much as possible about the person represented by each URL. This might include looking for hCards on both pages, analysing FOAF files linked to from either, RDFa, etc. One particularly useful technique is to look for an hCard such that the "uid" property is url1, and look for another with a "uid" property of url2. After all this analysis, we may end up with a relationship like this: [ Person: name = Alice title = Webmistress org = Webby Inc blog = url1 represented-by = url1 ] friend [ Person: represented-by = url2 ] This shouldn't be seen as a failure -- just (perhaps) as less information than we wanted. Maybe in the future we'll be able to fill in Alice's phone number, or person2's name and e-mail address. Maybe we won't. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 1 day, 17:06.] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 19 09:14:37 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 19 10:08:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a"source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: <9862D122-B406-4DAC-A962-65E5A39ACA85@randomchaos.com> References: <9862D122-B406-4DAC-A962-65E5A39ACA85@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: Hi Folks, My mind has really latched on to the term that Scott Reynen used in his last message: XFNetwork Nice! In a nutshell, what's needed is a way to connect the XFNetwork to an Identity Network. /Roger From thom at ts0.com Wed Mar 19 12:00:39 2008 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Wed Mar 19 12:00:56 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a"source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: <9862D122-B406-4DAC-A962-65E5A39ACA85@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <47E170E7.407@ts0.com> The address element is a valid and semantic way of claiming ownership/authorship of a document, I use it on my blog, and my accounts link to my blog claiming it's me. A url is a valid and important piece of someones identity, it's not "??? is friends with ???" it's "http://x is friends with http://y" Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > My mind has really latched on to the term that Scott Reynen used in his > last message: > > XFNetwork > > Nice! > > In a nutshell, what's needed is a way to connect the XFNetwork to an > Identity Network. > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > From thom at ts0.com Wed Mar 19 12:12:08 2008 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Wed Mar 19 12:22:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47E17398.5060401@ts0.com> Just as an example of where URLs are more than enough, here's a way you could use Googles Social Graph API. Bob signs up to new fangled social n etwork, he's prompted for a profile address to find if any of his friends are already on here. NewFangled asks Google for his relationships, G returns pages that he claims are his (his twitter, flickr pages etc) and urls of people on other networks (Eves twitter page, Alices flickr page). It turns out no one else is on NewFangled yet, but NewFangled stores the URLs that Bob lays a claim to, his flickr and twitter pages (stored as a hash!). Now Alice comes a long to NewFangled, and goes through the same process. Amongst her relationships google returns the url to Bobs flickr page, which happens to be stored in it's db and attached to Bobs NewFangled account. Now Alice can choose to make the same connection on the new site. Anyway that's how I see Googles API being used, all based on people identifying themselves by a URL or two. Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Below is a proposal. The proposal is based on the following assertion. > > ASSERTION > > An expression of a relationship is useful only if you know who is the > source and who is the target of the relationship. > > > EXAMPLE > > ??? is friends with ??? is not useful. > > But Alice is friends with Bob is useful. > ^ ^ ^ > | | | > | | | > source relationship target > > > ASSERTION, VERSION 2 > > XFN relationship information is useful only if an *application* (e.g. > robot) can dynamically determine who is the source and who is the > target of the relationship. > > > PROBLEM WITH XFN TODAY > > Today, an XFN relationship can be expressed without any indication of > who is the source and who is the target of the relationship. > Typically, the information about who is the source is present on the > web page containing the XFN. But that information can be *anywhere* > and in *any form*. Thus, given an *arbitrary web page* containing XFN, > it is not possible for a robot application to determine who is the > source individual. Ditto for the target individual. At best, the > source and target information is obtained with an extreme level of > coding effort which is unlikely to be successful with all web pages > (natural language processing is required). > > Note: "The source is the person who created the web page that contains > the XFN." That is not correct, as the following example illustrates. > Besides, even if it were true (which it's not), a robot application > would not know who "created the web page." That information must be > embedded within the web page. Ditto for the target. > > > EXAMPLE > > Here's an example usage of XFN on a Flickr page: > > > src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/buddyicons/24172116@N08.jpg?12 > 03935044#24172116@N08" > alt="Jolene_A" width="48" height="48" />
    > Jolene_A >     > > Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="contact" <<< > > Also notice that there is no indication of who is stating this > relationship or who is the target of this relationship, i.e. to a robot > application this is what the XFN indicates ??? contact ??? which is > meaningless. > > > PROPOSAL > > 1. If XFN is used on a web page then that web page MUST contain an > hCard of the person that represents the source of the relationship. > > Example: Consider a web page that uses XFN: > > > > Suppose that the intended source individual is Alice, i.e. Alice is > friends with xxx Then somewhere on the web page there MUST be an hCard > for Alice, e.g. > >
    >
    Alice
    > > 2. There MUST be a mechanism that connects the XFN to the hCard that > represents the source individual. Or, there MUST be a mechanism on the > hCard that connects it to the XFN. > > 3. The target of the XFN-bearing hyperlink MUST contain an hCard that > represents the target individual. And there MUST be some mechanism > that connects the XFN to that target individual's hCard. > > Exception: if the XFN is "me" then the hCard MAY not be repeated in > both the web page of the source and the web page of the target. > > > OTHER REQUIREMENTS? > > Are there any other requirements? > > Note: I am focusing just on the requirements at the present time. I'd > like to collect all of the requirements prior to thinking about how it > would be expressed in HTML. > > /Roger > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 19 08:02:53 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 19 12:44:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a"source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: <9862D122-B406-4DAC-A962-65E5A39ACA85@randomchaos.com> References: <9862D122-B406-4DAC-A962-65E5A39ACA85@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: Thanks Scott. Excellent comments. > 1. All people in an XFNetwork MUST be identified via > hCard somewhere within the network. How about allowing the parties involved in an XFN-relationship be identified by either hCard or a FOAF document or an OpenID? (I must confess ignorance of OpenID. Is the id specified in its own document, like FOAF, or is it embedded within HTML?) CHALLENGE [Scenario] You are a robot. Your mission is to create a social graph using every XFN you can find. You've just arrived at a web page with this URL: http://www.flickr.com/photos/13886259@N03/. As you parse the page you encounter a link containing XFN:     How do you determine the identity of the source and target of this relationship? What would you add to the link to enable the robot to identify the source and target? Let me toss out an idea: Read as: "The identity of the source may be found within this document on the element with id="source". The identity of the target may be found in the FOAF document at the URL: http://www.example.org/target/foaf.rdf How about that? /Roger From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Mar 19 14:02:47 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Mar 19 14:02:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a"source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: References: <9862D122-B406-4DAC-A962-65E5A39ACA85@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: <4CF631E3-70B2-4279-A8F5-90D39E524EFA@randomchaos.com> On Mar 19, 2008, at 10:02 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: >> 1. All people in an XFNetwork MUST be identified via >> hCard somewhere within the network. > > How about allowing the parties involved in an XFN-relationship be > identified by either hCard or a FOAF document or an OpenID? (I must > confess ignorance of OpenID. Is the id specified in its own document, > like FOAF, or is it embedded within HTML?) I think it's good to keep it as flexible as possible for publishers. I didn't mean to suggest my support for MUST vs. SHOULD or something else. I was just trying to show that the subject of a given document is not necessarily identified directly in the document itself. But in all of the examples, it is identified directly in the document itself (see below), so my point there may not be particularly relevant. > [Scenario] You are a robot. Your mission is to create a social graph > using every XFN you can find. You've just arrived at a web page with > this URL: http://www.flickr.com/photos/13886259@N03/. As you parse > the > page you encounter a link containing XFN: href="/photos/24172116@N08/" rel="contact"> How do you determine the > identity of the source and target of this relationship? Here's my thinking on this: The source and target of the relationship are the subjects of the documents at either end of the link. So I think the question is more simply: how do you determine which person is the subject of a document? I think headings are good for identifying a subject, and hCard is good for identifying people, so we could easily combine those two to determine which person is the subject. I'm further convinced this is a workable solution after looking at the sites mentioned that use XFN, which are for the most part already doing what I've described above (combining with hCard to indicate a person as a subject). Of the 6 sites mentioned that use XFN: - 5 use tags around the person who is the subject of the page (the other, Twitter, uses class="about vcard"). - 4 (all but MetaFilter and Last.fm) use hCards. - 3 (Flickr, Magnolia, and Pownce) already combine the two to clearly indicate a person as a subject. So I'd say start the robot on those 3, encourage MetaFilter and Last.fm to add hCard, and encourage Twitter to use a heading () intersecting with the existing hCard. Peace, Scott From angus at pobox.com Wed Mar 19 19:32:00 2008 From: angus at pobox.com (Angus McIntyre) Date: Wed Mar 19 14:26:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-license: what does the license apply to? (open issue revisited) Message-ID: <4945.66.17.182.210.1205983920.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> I'm in the process of adding 'rel="license"' in the relevant places on blip.tv, a video-sharing site, and I've run squarely into the 'open issue' raised by Evan on 2006-04-07 (in the wiki). Namely, there's no obvious way to specify that the license applies to a content element on a page - a picture, a video - rather than the page as a whole. About all I can think of is that a second rel value is needed, so you'd have something like: The interpretation would be: If one or more hyperlinks with 'rel=licensed' are found, the items referenced are covered by the license (but the page as a whole is not). if no hyperlinks with 'rel=licensed' are found, the license refers to the page as a whole. This has the advantage of only complicating things a little ... but it also has the flaw that it can't deal with the case where you have multiple content items covered by different licenses on the same page (which is a not unlikely scenario). I seem to remember one of the microformats has a poorly-understood algorithm for determining the scope of a declaration; could this be reapplied here? Angus From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 19 15:21:56 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 19 15:22:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: rel-license: what does the license apply to? (open issue revisited) Message-ID: Angus McIntyre wrote: > I seem to remember one of the microformats has a poorly-understood > algorithm for determining the scope of a declaration; could this be > reapplied here? The problem lies deeper than rel-license. The rel attribute in (X) HTML is able to specify a specific element within a page as its "target" (using a fragment identifier), but doesn't offer the same granularity to specify its "source". XHTML2 (and RDFa, which is basically a "backport" of XHTML2's metadata features to earlier versions of XHTML) solves this through its "about" attribute. One routes for rel-license to achieve the same trick might be to adopt eRDF, a formulation of competing RDF-in-HTML, which doesn't require adding any additional attributes or elements to the page. It co-opts the "id" attribute to indicate a "container" for metadata. So: Here "some more content" is licensed under the terms of licence.html. Unfortunately, my experience with implementing eRDF has been that is requires a great amount of thought from the very beginning of designing a page. "id" attributes are too commonly used in the wild to tack on this functionality -- you get unintentional narrowing of the scope of metadata. If a page is written with eRDF in mind from the start, it's just about usable. RDFa is much more pleasant to use. I added an example to the licensing-brainstorming a few days ago which goes some way to solving the problem and allowing authors to specify exactly what is under the licence. http://microformats.org/wiki/licensing- brainstorming#Creative_Commons_Vocab A key feature is that it uses rev=license to link from a licence summary to the licensed work, thus allowing the work to be targeted in more detail (e.g. fragment identifiers can be used), and deliberately flying under the radar of existing rel-license tools. -- Toby A Inkster From ian at mckellar.org Wed Mar 19 15:22:08 2008 From: ian at mckellar.org (Ian McKellar) Date: Wed Mar 19 15:22:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-license: what does the license apply to? (open issue revisited) In-Reply-To: <4945.66.17.182.210.1205983920.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> References: <4945.66.17.182.210.1205983920.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> Message-ID: <83cf34410803191622x30db1d9dm2787becdf2be1cad@mail.gmail.com> Then how do you specify the license for different elements of the page? Perhaps making your video embeds an iframe that contains the embed/object and its own rel-license would be the best set of hoops to jump through. This is where RDFa starts to shine. I don't think there's a good way in microformats to set the subject of your triple (subject/predicate/object) to be anything other than the whole current page. In the wild people seem to publish conflicting information. For example Flickr use rel-license to say that my photo pages are CC licensed and then at the bottom of the page there's a separate Yahoo copyright message that is not marked up with microformats. Ian On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Angus McIntyre wrote: > I'm in the process of adding 'rel="license"' in the relevant places on > blip.tv, a video-sharing site, and I've run squarely into the 'open issue' > raised by Evan on 2006-04-07 (in the wiki). Namely, there's no obvious way > to specify that the license applies to a content element on a page - a > picture, a video - rather than the page as a whole. > > About all I can think of is that a second rel value is needed, so you'd > have something like: > > href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/" /> > > > > The interpretation would be: > > If one or more hyperlinks with 'rel=licensed' are found, the items > referenced > are covered by the license (but the page as a whole is not). > > if no hyperlinks with 'rel=licensed' are found, the license refers to > the page as a whole. > > This has the advantage of only complicating things a little ... but it > also has the flaw that it can't deal with the case where you have multiple > content items covered by different licenses on the same page (which is a > not unlikely scenario). > > I seem to remember one of the microformats has a poorly-understood > algorithm for determining the scope of a declaration; could this be > reapplied here? > > Angus > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Ian McKellar +1 415 867 9255 ian@mckellar.org: email | jabber | msn ianloic: flickr | aim | yahoo | skype | linkedin | etc. From supercanadian at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 15:40:02 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Wed Mar 19 15:40:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-license: what does the license apply to? (open issue revisited) In-Reply-To: <4945.66.17.182.210.1205983920.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> References: <4945.66.17.182.210.1205983920.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0803191640t12ca4622p8c8f3ce05a762e85@mail.gmail.com> Hey Angus, On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Angus McIntyre wrote: > I'm in the process of adding 'rel="license"' in the relevant places on > blip.tv, a video-sharing site, and I've run squarely into the 'open issue' > raised by Evan on 2006-04-07 (in the wiki). Namely, there's no obvious way > to specify that the license applies to a content element on a page - a > picture, a video - rather than the page as a whole. (I should probably check this before posting... but I'm in a rush...) >From what I remember of the HTML spec, an element with the "rel" attribute set applies to all or part of the HTML page. An example of this is rel-bookmark used for hAtom. So... the rel-license could apply just to the video. >From a machine point-of-view, there's no way (that I'm aware of) to differentiate when the rel-license applies to the whole page or part of the page. Suggestions welcome. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ Vlog Razor... Vlogging News... http://vlograzor.com/ From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 19 15:56:28 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 19 15:56:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel=tag problem In-Reply-To: References: <835785410803110714i4876dcb8s87b09136783613c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:58 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Mar 11, 2008, at 9:14 AM, David Meade wrote: > >> If those of us who are concerned about this being implemented >> incorrectly are wrong, please let me know and I'll forward that >> education on to the mailing lists that have been discussing this ... >> but if we're correct in our belief that WordPress has implemented >> rel=tag incorrectly ... is there anyway that the microformats group >> could provide them some clarification from the source of the >> specification? > > I believe you're wrong. I'm not aware of any resolution to the > outstanding issue of multi-word tags: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues#Multi-word_tags > > Here's my suggested resolution, with which I'm sure others will > disagree: this is a non-issue because the meaning of tags is > contextually dependent on the tag space, so there's no possibility > for standardization around what tags mean, whether they're single- > or multi-word. Actually, I agree completely. Publishing tools can choose what they want to do here, as can aggregators. -ryan From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 19 16:08:56 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 19 16:09:03 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Has the cowpath for these XFN values faded away: friend, co-worker, muse, etc? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <856188AD-A03B-4DF1-AE09-CB3EE24DDFBC@theryanking.com> On Mar 18, 2008, at 9:18 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Chris Messina wrote[1]: "... you'll find that, by and large, the > majority of XFN links on the web are using either rel-contact or > rel-me." > > I have been looking at various social networks for the last week, and > Chris' statement is consistent with what I have seen - most web pages > just use "contact" or "me". > > This puzzles me. Microformats are about paving existing cowpaths. Historical note: XFN was created several years before the word "microformats" was coined, the microformats process was created, etc. > I > presume the authors of XFN saw a clear cowpath for not only "contact" > and "me", but for all the other XFN values, such as "friend", > "co-worker", "muse", etc. Has the cowpath for these later values > disappeared, and thus are no longer needed? There's not a lot of value in taking other relationship types out of XFN. It'd make the spec smaller, but would lead to people who encounter those edges cases asking for re-inclusion. So, in a way, whether values besides 'contact' and 'me' are valuable, it doesn't matter that much at this point, there are more important things to work on. -ryan From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 19 16:11:58 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 19 16:12:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> This is not a big problem, its mostly solved with [1] -ryan 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard On Mar 18, 2008, at 5:31 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Flickr uses XFN. Here is a sample Flickr page that uses XFN: > http://www.flickr.com/people/tantek/ > > At the browser menu select View >> Page Source. Then search for rel= > > Here's an example usage of XFN within that Flickr page: > > > src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/buddyicons/24172116@N08.jpg? > 12 > 03935044#24172116@N08" > alt="Jolene_A" width="48" height="48" />
    > Jolene_A >     > > Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="contact" <<< > > Metafilter also uses XFN. Here is a sample page that uses XFN: > http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 > > Here's an example usage of XFN within that page: > > 40 Watt > > Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="colleague" <<< > > Now, suppose that I wanted to create a spider application which crawls > all social networks that use XFN. Most likely, I would want the > spider > to collect: > > 1. Who is the source? That is, who is the individual using XFN to > state a relationship? > > 2. What is the relationship? This is, of course, obtained easily from > the value of the rel attribute on the link. > > 3. Who is the target? That is, who is the other individual in the > relationship? > > Examine the above snippets of code. Does 1. and 3. pop out at you? > That is, do you know who are the individuals that are the source and > target of the relationship? > > That information "can" be found on the Flickr and Metafilter sites, > but > each site does it *differently*. > > So, the problem with XFN can be stated as this: While XFN does a great > job of providing a set of relationship values (friend, contact, > co-worker, etc), it provides no means for the automated discovery of > the individuals that are the source and target of the relationship. > Without information about the source and target individuals, the > relationship information is not very useful. > > You might argue: "Well, the XFN *should* be embedded within an hCard, > then you can discover who the source individual is. And the target > page should contain an hCard, then you can discover who the target > individual is." And I agree that is Best Practice. Unfortunately, > this is not mandated and consequently many people don't do it. For > example, Flickr and Metafilter don't do it. Nor do any of the other > social networks do it. > > Conversely, consider FOAF. Advogato is a social network that uses > FOAF. Here an example FOAF on that network: > > http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/foaf.rdf > > At the browser menu select View >> Page Source to see the actual FOAF > document. Notice that the individual who is the source of the > relationship is clearly listed at the top of the document: > > Dan Connolly > > And the individual who is the target of the relationship is clearly > identified: > > > rdf:about="http://www.advogato.org/person/jtauber/foaf.rdf#me"> > jtauber > rdf:resource="http://www.advogato.org/person/jtauber/foaf.rdf"/> > > > > The downside of FOAF is the only built-in relationship is "knows", > e.g. > "Dan Connolly knows James Tauber." That is, FOAF doesn't possess the > richness of expression in terms of relationships. (I know, there are > extensions of FOAF to express more than "knows," but as far as I can > tell, no social network is using those extensions) > > The upside of FOAF is that all three pieces of information are > available to a spider application: > > 1. The source individual (e.g. Dan Connolly) > > 2. The relationship ("knows") > > 3. The target individual (e.g. James Tauber) > > I don't see any solution to the problem with XFN. As far as I can > see, > social networks using XFN cannot be processed by spiders. Only social > networks that use FOAF can be processed by spiders. Bummer. > > Hopefully, I am missing something. I really like the simplicity of > XFN > and its rich set of relationships. > > /Roger > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From bbtommorris at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 16:21:47 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Wed Mar 19 16:21:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Has the cowpath for these XFN values faded away: friend, co-worker, muse, etc? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > This puzzles me. Microformats are about paving existing cowpaths. I > presume the authors of XFN saw a clear cowpath for not only "contact" > and "me", but for all the other XFN values, such as "friend", > "co-worker", "muse", etc. Has the cowpath for these later values > disappeared, and thus are no longer needed? > "Pave the cowpaths" does not imply "unpave unused roads". Removing XFN predicates doesn't seem like it has any actual value. Some additional values that aren't being widely used doesn't hurt anybody - and they *are* being used by individual authors. On my blog, and on many other blogs, people who hand-code HTML are inserting XFN rel values beyond me and contact. What criteria should there be for 'unpaving'? I'd suggest something similar to the following: - if the continued use of the pattern is dangerous, or could lead to bad effects overall, such as security or accessibility problems - if a broadly satisfactory alternative approach has been created that has significant advantages over the existing solution, and the existing solution is actively preventing the new solution from working - if it leads to significant confusion or usability concerns among it's users I don't think that removing any of the XFN values has any benefit. I think Chris is right in saying that for the specific case of social networks of the sort derived from the Friendster/MySpace/Flickr type, it may be more sensible to focus on promoting contact and me than worrying too much about the others. But I use friend, acquaintance, met and colleague too. Is that a big problem? I say no. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From derrick at pallas.us Wed Mar 19 16:23:05 2008 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Lyndon Pallas) Date: Wed Mar 19 16:23:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: <47E17398.5060401@ts0.com> References: <47E17398.5060401@ts0.com> Message-ID: <47E1AE69.2050801@pallas.us> Thom Shannon wrote: > It turns out no one else is on NewFangled yet, but NewFangled stores > the URLs that Bob lays a claim to, his flickr and twitter pages > (stored as a hash!). What's the collision rate when hypothetical implementations are unnecessarily hashed? ~D From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Mar 19 17:36:30 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Mar 19 17:42:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803191836o3ec59114v7fe285da8443a08a@mail.gmail.com> Wow. A spec just like Aphrodite, born fully an adult. On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Ryan King wrote: > This is not a big problem, its mostly solved with [1] > > -ryan > > 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard > > > > On Mar 18, 2008, at 5:31 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Flickr uses XFN. Here is a sample Flickr page that uses XFN: > > http://www.flickr.com/people/tantek/ > > > > At the browser menu select View >> Page Source. Then search for rel= > > > > Here's an example usage of XFN within that Flickr page: > > > > > > > src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/buddyicons/24172116@N08.jpg? > > 12 > > 03935044#24172116@N08" > > alt="Jolene_A" width="48" height="48" />
    > > Jolene_A > >     > > > > Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="contact" <<< > > > > Metafilter also uses XFN. Here is a sample page that uses XFN: > > http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 > > > > Here's an example usage of XFN within that page: > > > > 40 Watt > > > > Notice the use of XFN: >>> rel="colleague" <<< > > > > Now, suppose that I wanted to create a spider application which crawls > > all social networks that use XFN. Most likely, I would want the > > spider > > to collect: > > > > 1. Who is the source? That is, who is the individual using XFN to > > state a relationship? > > > > 2. What is the relationship? This is, of course, obtained easily from > > the value of the rel attribute on the link. > > > > 3. Who is the target? That is, who is the other individual in the > > relationship? > > > > Examine the above snippets of code. Does 1. and 3. pop out at you? > > That is, do you know who are the individuals that are the source and > > target of the relationship? > > > > That information "can" be found on the Flickr and Metafilter sites, > > but > > each site does it *differently*. > > > > So, the problem with XFN can be stated as this: While XFN does a great > > job of providing a set of relationship values (friend, contact, > > co-worker, etc), it provides no means for the automated discovery of > > the individuals that are the source and target of the relationship. > > Without information about the source and target individuals, the > > relationship information is not very useful. > > > > You might argue: "Well, the XFN *should* be embedded within an hCard, > > then you can discover who the source individual is. And the target > > page should contain an hCard, then you can discover who the target > > individual is." And I agree that is Best Practice. Unfortunately, > > this is not mandated and consequently many people don't do it. For > > example, Flickr and Metafilter don't do it. Nor do any of the other > > social networks do it. > > > > Conversely, consider FOAF. Advogato is a social network that uses > > FOAF. Here an example FOAF on that network: > > > > http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/foaf.rdf > > > > At the browser menu select View >> Page Source to see the actual FOAF > > document. Notice that the individual who is the source of the > > relationship is clearly listed at the top of the document: > > > > Dan Connolly > > > > And the individual who is the target of the relationship is clearly > > identified: > > > > > > > rdf:about="http://www.advogato.org/person/jtauber/foaf.rdf#me"> > > jtauber > > > rdf:resource="http://www.advogato.org/person/jtauber/foaf.rdf"/> > > > > > > > > The downside of FOAF is the only built-in relationship is "knows", > > e.g. > > "Dan Connolly knows James Tauber." That is, FOAF doesn't possess the > > richness of expression in terms of relationships. (I know, there are > > extensions of FOAF to express more than "knows," but as far as I can > > tell, no social network is using those extensions) > > > > The upside of FOAF is that all three pieces of information are > > available to a spider application: > > > > 1. The source individual (e.g. Dan Connolly) > > > > 2. The relationship ("knows") > > > > 3. The target individual (e.g. James Tauber) > > > > I don't see any solution to the problem with XFN. As far as I can > > see, > > social networks using XFN cannot be processed by spiders. Only social > > networks that use FOAF can be processed by spiders. Bummer. > > > > Hopefully, I am missing something. I really like the simplicity of > > XFN > > and its rich set of relationships. > > > > /Roger > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microformats-discuss mailing list > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From kevinmarks at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 17:52:22 2008 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Wed Mar 19 17:59:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-license: what does the license apply to? (open issue revisited) In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0803191640t12ca4622p8c8f3ce05a762e85@mail.gmail.com> References: <4945.66.17.182.210.1205983920.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> <84ce626f0803191640t12ca4622p8c8f3ce05a762e85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73766b160803191852q35fe1fdfy4bc917339b1412d6@mail.gmail.com> Is the problem that the page contains multiple video elements? If so using hAtom to define them as separate entries may help clarify this, especially in conjunction with rel-enclosure. On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > Hey Angus, > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Angus McIntyre wrote: > > > I'm in the process of adding 'rel="license"' in the relevant places on > > blip.tv, a video-sharing site, and I've run squarely into the 'open issue' > > raised by Evan on 2006-04-07 (in the wiki). Namely, there's no obvious way > > to specify that the license applies to a content element on a page - a > > picture, a video - rather than the page as a whole. > > (I should probably check this before posting... but I'm in a rush...) > >From what I remember of the HTML spec, an element with the "rel" > attribute set applies to all or part of the HTML page. > > An example of this is rel-bookmark used for hAtom. > > So... the rel-license could apply just to the video. > > >From a machine point-of-view, there's no way (that I'm aware of) to > differentiate when the rel-license applies to the whole page or part > of the page. > > Suggestions welcome. > > > See ya > > -- > Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. > http://ChangeLog.ca/ > > Vlog Razor... Vlogging News... http://vlograzor.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From kooper at mail.ru Wed Mar 19 19:39:41 2008 From: kooper at mail.ru (Victor Kupriyanov) Date: Wed Mar 19 19:39:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using microformats for automation of user input Message-ID: Hello list, Is anybody aware of implementation or research on the topic of microformat usage for automation of user input? It is obvious that attaching microformat to said HTML form fields makes it possible for automation software to provide known values for them, without user interaction. This is particularly useful from the point of view of automatic service provisioning and application integration. However I was unable to find tracks of microformats usage for this purposes on the web... -- Kooper From john at westciv.com Wed Mar 19 20:28:07 2008 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Wed Mar 19 20:28:19 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803191836o3ec59114v7fe285da8443a08a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> <21e523c20803191836o3ec59114v7fe285da8443a08a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2FD05280-BF8B-4806-9C70-34BB7DF48132@westciv.com> David, > Wow. A spec just like Aphrodite, born fully an adult.

    I think you mean the goddess Athena ;-)

    john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book From john at westciv.com Wed Mar 19 20:34:12 2008 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Wed Mar 19 20:34:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using microformats for automation of user input In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BACD306-B70F-4262-828E-0DD6B02491A1@westciv.com> Hi Victor, > > Is anybody aware of implementation or research on the topic of > microformat usage for automation of user input? It is obvious that > attaching microformat to said HTML form fields makes it possible for > automation software to provide known values for them, without user > interaction. This is particularly useful from the point of view of > automatic service provisioning and application integration. > > However I was unable to find tracks of microformats usage for this > purposes on the web... It's long occurred to me that this would be of no small value, particularly in the context of devices where text input is more of a pain than standard keyboards - things with virtual keyboards, sms keyboards, and so on. There is in fact ECML http://xml.coverpages.org/ecml.html which has a degree of support in various browsers auto complete algorithms. Because common ecommerce form fields go beyond the vocabularies of hCard, hCalendar, and so on, I wonder what value there might be in considering the microformatization of ECML (yeah yeah, tat last sentence should probably be in the new mailing list ;-) Can't really determine how much traction ECML has got with publishers (Google might be able to tell us) HTH at least a little john > > -- > Kooper > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book From ckstjohn at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 20:45:01 2008 From: ckstjohn at gmail.com (Christopher St John) Date: Wed Mar 19 20:45:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: <2FD05280-BF8B-4806-9C70-34BB7DF48132@westciv.com> References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> <21e523c20803191836o3ec59114v7fe285da8443a08a@mail.gmail.com> <2FD05280-BF8B-4806-9C70-34BB7DF48132@westciv.com> Message-ID: <8ba906450803192145q2606a966s42e40ba62b96d09f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:28 PM, John Allsopp wrote: > > > Wow. A spec just like Aphrodite, born fully an adult. > >

    I think you mean the goddess Athena ;-)

    > gonna have to take that westciv domain away if you're not careful :-) :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:La_naissance_de_V?nus.jpg -cks -- Christopher St. John http://artofsystems.blogspot.com From john at westciv.com Wed Mar 19 21:49:31 2008 From: john at westciv.com (John Allsopp) Date: Wed Mar 19 21:49:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: <8ba906450803192145q2606a966s42e40ba62b96d09f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> <21e523c20803191836o3ec59114v7fe285da8443a08a@mail.gmail.com> <2FD05280-BF8B-4806-9C70-34BB7DF48132@westciv.com> <8ba906450803192145q2606a966s42e40ba62b96d09f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Christopher > gonna have to take that westciv domain away if you're not > careful :-) :-) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:La_naissance_de_V?nus.jpg I'll see you your Aphrodite, and raise you "Athena leaped from Zeus's head, fully grown and armed" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena looks like we may both be right! Perhaps the ambiguous relationship between Athena and Zeus is captured perfectly by XFN rel="parent" (being arguably both father and mother) And with that, a happy easter to all those who celebrate that particular festival john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master about me :: http://johnfallsopp.com Web Directions Conferences :: http://webdirections.org My Microformats book :: http://microformatique.com/book From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Mar 20 00:56:42 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Mar 20 00:56:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source and target not findable In-Reply-To: References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> <21e523c20803191836o3ec59114v7fe285da8443a08a@mail.gmail.com> <2FD05280-BF8B-4806-9C70-34BB7DF48132@westciv.com> <8ba906450803192145q2606a966s42e40ba62b96d09f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803200156y14f0a11bsf11aa49d60e2f5e5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 1:49 AM, John Allsopp wrote: > Christopher > > > > gonna have to take that westciv domain away if you're not > > careful :-) :-) > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:La_naissance_de_V?nus.jpg > > > I'll see you your Aphrodite, and raise you > > "Athena leaped from Zeus's head, fully grown and armed" > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena > > looks like we may both be right! We're both right, but I meant Athena ;-) > Perhaps the ambiguous relationship between Athena and Zeus is captured > perfectly by XFN > > rel="parent" (being arguably both father and mother) > > And with that, a happy easter to all those who celebrate that > particular festival This was one of the loose thoughts I had at SGFooCamp -- that the social (XFN) graph is a subset of some other graph representing other relations: rel=celebrates rel=attended Hey look, I can write triples too! Regards, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From gordon at onlinehome.de Thu Mar 20 00:58:05 2008 From: gordon at onlinehome.de (Gordon) Date: Thu Mar 20 00:58:11 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using microformats for automation of user input In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47E2271D.8060506@onlinehome.de> Victor Kupriyanov schrieb: > Hello list, > > Is anybody aware of implementation or research on the topic of microformat usage for automation of user input? It is obvious that attaching microformat to said HTML form fields makes it possible for automation software to provide known values for them, without user interaction. This is particularly useful from the point of view of automatic service provisioning and application integration. > > However I was unable to find tracks of microformats usage for this purposes on the web... > > -- > Kooper > Hi Victor, I have written a small script that can map hCard values onto a form field, automating user input. You can see the demo at http://lib.omnia-computing.de/hcardmapper Not sure though, if this is what you are looking for. Feel free to drop me a note if you got any questions. Cheers, Gordon From thom at ts0.com Thu Mar 20 03:03:29 2008 From: thom at ts0.com (Thom Shannon) Date: Thu Mar 20 03:03:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Proposal: Mandatory connection of a XFN to a "source" hCard and a "target" hCard In-Reply-To: <47E1AE69.2050801@pallas.us> References: <47E17398.5060401@ts0.com> <47E1AE69.2050801@pallas.us> Message-ID: <47E24481.9060305@ts0.com> >> It turns out no one else is on NewFangled yet, but NewFangled stores >> the URLs that Bob lays a claim to, his flickr and twitter pages >> (stored as a hash!). > > What's the collision rate when hypothetical implementations are > unnecessarily hashed? ~D I just don't like the idea of storing peoples personal data when you don't need it, so I had to throw that in there. From ajaswa at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 07:05:17 2008 From: ajaswa at gmail.com (Andrew Jaswa) Date: Thu Mar 20 07:05:20 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator 0.9.1 Message-ID: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> Hey, So I updated to 0.9.1 this morning and found that hCards with nested divs are no longer picked up by Operator. The hCard below doesn't get picked up by Operator:
    Alice Jones
    Chuck Yeager
    Additionally, in Alice's web page she has a link to the web page of her friend Bob (who's also a flying aficionado):     Bob Note the use of XFN in the link: >>> rel="friend <<< Consider a robot that is trolling all the social networks that use XFN, building a social network graph. It arrives at Alice's web page, and parses its way to the link to her friend Bob. Now the robot wants to identify the source of this XFN "friend" relationship. There are two hCards on Alice's web page, how will the robot know which one represents the source of the relationship? That's the purpose of a representative hCard! The purpose of a representative hCard is to identify itself as "Hey, look at me, I am the author of this page." The way an hCard identifies itself as the representative hCard is by: - add to link that points back to itself (the web page) - on the link add the hCard properties url and uid So here's how Alice redesigns her hCard:
    Alice Jones
    Back to the robot ... it looks for the representative hCard and finds it. It now knows half of the relationship, i.e. Alice Jones is friends with ??? To get the other half, the robot follows the link to Bob's web page, finds the representative hCard on that web page, which is this:
    Bob Smith
    Now the robot has all the information it needs: - the source is "Alice Jones" - the relationship is "friend" - the target is "Bob Smith" That is, Alice Jones is friends with Bob Smith The robot adds this to the social network graph that it's constructing, and moves on to the next XFN-bearing link. TaDa! ANALYSIS OF SOCIAL NETWORKS THAT USE XFN AND THEIR CONFORMANCE TO THE REPRESENTATIVE HCARD BEST PRACTICE Now, let's examine each of the social networks that use XFN to see if they are following the Representative hCard Best Practice. 1. Flickr http://www.flickr.com/people/tracylee/ Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice? No. 2. Last.fm http://www.last.fm/user/fbellintani/?scrobbling=t1 Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice? No. 3. Ma.gnolia http://ma.gnolia.com/people/apartness Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice? No. 4. MetaFilter http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice? No. (doesn't have any hCards) 5. Pownce http://pownce.com/ariel/ Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice? Yes! 6. Twitter http://twitter.com/t Follow the Representative hCard Best Practice? No. A PLEA TO INFLUENCE THE SOCIAL NETWORKS Are there people on this list who can influence: - Flickr, - Last.fm, - Ma.gnolia, - MetaFilter, and - Twitter to use a representative hCard to identify the person that the web page is talking about? /Roger From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Mar 20 09:13:57 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Mar 20 09:14:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator 0.9.1 In-Reply-To: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Andrew Jaswa wrote: > The hCard below doesn't get picked up by Operator: >
    >
    > look at me, I am the author of this page." I think it's more "Hey, look at me, I am the *subject* of this page." The author is identified by
    . > A PLEA TO INFLUENCE THE SOCIAL NETWORKS > > Are there people on this list who can influence: > - Flickr, > - Last.fm, > - Ma.gnolia, > - MetaFilter, and > - Twitter > to use a representative hCard to identify the person that the web page > is talking about? I've contacted Matt from MetaFilter. Peace, Scott From ryan at theryanking.com Thu Mar 20 09:46:26 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Thu Mar 20 09:52:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source andtarget not findable In-Reply-To: References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <9D464FFC-ECC3-429D-8564-8E0386F2CF2C@theryanking.com> On Mar 20, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Thanks Ryan! "Representative hCard" -- nice! I'm glad you like it. On a meta point, I'd like to suggest that before people post to this list saying "this is broken" that you first do some research on the wiki and elsewhere. There's a good chance that if the problem you've run into is worth tackling, someone else has already at least started tackling it. Also, when you fail to find any work on a point, please still don't email the list saying "this is broken", try "I think this is broken, but that may just be because I couldn't find it on the wiki". :) > A PLEA TO INFLUENCE THE SOCIAL NETWORKS > > Are there people on this list who can influence: > - Flickr, > - Last.fm, > - Ma.gnolia, > - MetaFilter, and > - Twitter > to use a representative hCard to identify the person that the web page > is talking about? Once again, we already have space on the wiki for working on this: http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy Please document any sites which should be targets of advocacy there. And feel free to do any advocacy of previously documented targets. -ryan PS - On another meta note, if you find that you're writing multi-page, informative emails to this list, you should probably be putting the information on the wiki instead. From ajaswa at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 09:16:22 2008 From: ajaswa at gmail.com (Andrew Jaswa) Date: Thu Mar 20 11:02:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Operator 0.9.1 In-Reply-To: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e76a9d60803201016x7091d8b1rbc552386ca4849df@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Andrew Jaswa wrote: > Hey, > > So I updated to 0.9.1 this morning and found that hCards with nested > divs are no longer picked up by Operator. I was going to get some URLs together but now I can't reproduce it. So I guess I am going crazy... From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Thu Mar 20 08:17:35 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Thu Mar 20 11:05:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: A (big) problem with XFN: identity of source andtarget not findable References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> Message-ID: Costello, Roger L. wrote: > The purpose of a representative hCard is to identify itself as "Hey, > look at me, I am the author of this page." Correction: the representative hCard may not represent the author of the page. For example, the representative hCard on the Wikipedia entry for Julius Caesar would normally be an hCard for Julius Caesar. But Julius Caesar is not the author of the page. The representative hCard is the contact information for the person or organisation that the page is supposed to, in some way "represent". > Back to the robot ... it looks for the representative hCard and finds > it. It now knows half of the relationship, i.e. Alice Jones is friends > with ??? To get the other half, the robot follows the link to Bob's > web page, finds the representative hCard on that web page An optimisation: Alice may already have an hCard for Bob on her page. In which case the robot is wasting time and bandwidth if it needs to download Bob's page. So if Alice's page has an hCard with a UID property set to the same URL as the target of the XFN link, this hCard may be used instead. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 2 days, 17:58.] The Semantic Web http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/09/sw/ From wojciech at xhtmlized.com Thu Mar 20 10:17:13 2008 From: wojciech at xhtmlized.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Wojtek_Zaj=C4=85c?=) Date: Thu Mar 20 11:15:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar: Exporting selective events In-Reply-To: <9D464FFC-ECC3-429D-8564-8E0386F2CF2C@theryanking.com> References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> <9D464FFC-ECC3-429D-8564-8E0386F2CF2C@theryanking.com> Message-ID: Hey, I'm working on TV schedule page marked up with hCalendar. Is there any possibility to add *single* event to calendar instead of every existing event on the site? I couldn?t find anyone mentioning this issue. I was wondering if it would be possible to put http://site.com/#foo and get contents of
  • from the parser. Thanks -- Wojtek Zaj?c http://microformats.pl From ed.ncbi at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 12:13:30 2008 From: ed.ncbi at gmail.com (Eddie Welker) Date: Thu Mar 20 12:20:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator 0.9.1 In-Reply-To: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c69ccdc0803201313y5f3a03efo3238e70ab3712009@mail.gmail.com> do you really have class="fn or class="fn" ? with "fn", both worked for me (ff2, op0.9.1) On 3/20/08, Andrew Jaswa wrote: > Hey, > > So I updated to 0.9.1 this morning and found that hCards with nested > divs are no longer picked up by Operator. > > > The hCard below doesn't get picked up by Operator: >
    >
    > > or > > class="fn" > > ? > > with "fn", both worked for me (ff2, op0.9.1) I had it as class="fn". I mis-typed it in my example, sorry. I did finally reproduce it. It was something with not having CSS on a class called vcard. I've been digging around in it this afternoon to try and find out what the cause was. But I haven't had much luck and I'm working on a deadline. So far what I've found out is that Operator won't see the hCard when there is a nested div inside the vcard class while there is some CSS going on. I'm not 100% sure what that CSS is quite yet. If there is a nested span inside the vcard class with the same CSS, Operator does see the hCard. Once I find out some more I'll share. Andrew From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Mar 20 15:02:53 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Mar 20 15:02:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar: Exporting selective events In-Reply-To: References: <8F02FFF8-5255-4074-A48D-F761CB42EA50@theryanking.com> <9D464FFC-ECC3-429D-8564-8E0386F2CF2C@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <37E80114-EFB5-4CA0-ABEF-66392CA4D0C1@ben-ward.co.uk> On 20 Mar 2008, at 11:17, Wojtek Zaj?c wrote: > Is there any possibility to add *single* event to calendar instead > of every existing event on the site? I couldn?t find anyone > mentioning this issue. > > I was wondering if it would be possible to put http://site.com/#foo > and get contents of
  • from the parser. Yes, using fragment identifiers should be supported by most parsers. It's been in Suda's X2V scripts for a number of years, I think. Ben From glenn.jones at madgex.com Fri Mar 21 02:46:24 2008 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Fri Mar 21 02:47:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of sourceandtarget not findable In-Reply-To: References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01B91131@MOBY.Clarence.local> Hi Roger If you interested in this area, the ufxtract parser I built directly uses the design patterns you have been talking about to extract portable social network date. It spiders sites following rel=me Parsers the xfn/hCard pattern Finds Representative hCard There is an API you can use http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/. We have also created a demo web interface to show how the JSON can be used http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/demo01.htm I wrote a small blog post "Making your social networking data portable" that may interest you. Also on my blog is the presentation I gave at Semantic Camp London which covers the more complex issues of extracting data from portable social networks. http://www.glennjones.net/ Glenn Jones From danbri at danbri.org Fri Mar 21 03:34:24 2008 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Fri Mar 21 03:34:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity of sourceandtarget not findable In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01B91131@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01B91131@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <754FC033-18C0-4858-B7A1-27A925F06936@danbri.org> On 21 Mar 2008, at 10:46, Glenn Jones wrote: > Hi Roger > > If you interested in this area, the ufxtract parser I built directly > uses the design patterns you have been talking about to extract > portable > social network date. > > It spiders sites following rel=me > Parsers the xfn/hCard pattern > Finds Representative hCard > > There is an API you can use http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract- > psn/. We > have also created a demo web interface to show how the JSON can be > used > http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/demo01.htm > > I wrote a small blog post "Making your social networking data > portable" > that may interest you. Also on my blog is the presentation I gave at > Semantic Camp London which covers the more complex issues of > extracting > data from portable social networks. http://www.glennjones.net/ That was a really interesting talk :) Do you have any plans to opensource the ufxtract parser code? Or is the test suite available? Did you see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/ and http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/ for the RDFa testing framework? cheers, Dan From costello at mitre.org Fri Mar 21 03:51:45 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Fri Mar 21 03:51:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity ofsourceandtarget not findable In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01B91131@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com> <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01B91131@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: Wow! This is excellent! Perfect! Thanks Glenn! /Roger -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Jones Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:46 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] A (big) problem with XFN: identity ofsourceandtarget not findable Hi Roger If you interested in this area, the ufxtract parser I built directly uses the design patterns you have been talking about to extract portable social network date. It spiders sites following rel=me Parsers the xfn/hCard pattern Finds Representative hCard There is an API you can use http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/. We have also created a demo web interface to show how the JSON can be used http://lab.backnetwork.com/ufXtract-psn/demo01.htm I wrote a small blog post "Making your social networking data portable" that may interest you. Also on my blog is the presentation I gave at Semantic Camp London which covers the more complex issues of extracting data from portable social networks. http://www.glennjones.net/ Glenn Jones _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mark.birbeck at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 04:11:54 2008 From: mark.birbeck at gmail.com (Mark Birbeck) Date: Fri Mar 21 04:11:57 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] rel-license: what does the license apply to? (open issue revisited) In-Reply-To: <83cf34410803191622x30db1d9dm2787becdf2be1cad@mail.gmail.com> References: <4945.66.17.182.210.1205983920.squirrel@webmail.nomadcode.com> <83cf34410803191622x30db1d9dm2787becdf2be1cad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <640dd5060803210511p6dc62eccn2dd021f1f95d45f2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ian/Angus, > This is where RDFa starts to shine. I don't think there's a good way > in microformats to set the subject of your triple > (subject/predicate/object) to be anything other than the whole current > page. Although I'm obviously going to agree with that, it strikes me that in this particular scenario, all you need from RDFa is the @about attribute. The example given previously simply becomes: I'm suggesting that if people don't want to make the leap to 'full' RDFa, it still might be worth making use of some of the simpler features like the about attribute, which are designed to solved exactly this problem. By the way, in RDFa 'proper', the @src attribute can also be used to set the subject, so if the video clips are in an tag, it could be marked up like this: As you can imagine, that's pretty useful for pages full of images, too, where each image might have a different license. Regards, Mark Mark Birbeck From ajaswa at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 05:29:47 2008 From: ajaswa at gmail.com (Andrew Jaswa) Date: Fri Mar 21 05:30:08 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator 0.9.1 In-Reply-To: <1e76a9d60803201345k3c9638d5hd1afc2fd8f0c682f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> <1c69ccdc0803201313y5f3a03efo3238e70ab3712009@mail.gmail.com> <1e76a9d60803201345k3c9638d5hd1afc2fd8f0c682f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e76a9d60803210629w40512ba9l60952c29c7f12ee1@mail.gmail.com> > Once I find out some more I'll share. Alright so here is what I found out: Op. 0.9.1 does not find the hCard when the nested divs are floated. I've also noticed that when the "Show hidden Microformats" is checked Op will find the hCard. My sample file is found at: http://gotkicked.net/research/uf/opbug.html Can someone else please confirm this? Andrew From info at zachyoung.net Fri Mar 21 05:51:41 2008 From: info at zachyoung.net (Zach Young) Date: Fri Mar 21 05:51:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator 0.9.1 In-Reply-To: <1e76a9d60803210629w40512ba9l60952c29c7f12ee1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> <1c69ccdc0803201313y5f3a03efo3238e70ab3712009@mail.gmail.com> <1e76a9d60803201345k3c9638d5hd1afc2fd8f0c682f@mail.gmail.com> <1e76a9d60803210629w40512ba9l60952c29c7f12ee1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <424f9b530803210651q8bbd16cn1aa8f1fee55b6d4@mail.gmail.com> > Can someone else please confirm this? Does the same thing for me. Won't pick up the whole hCard (just the adr) with styles, but without styles (even just turning them off with the webdev toolbar), the hCard appears. Show hidden formats works for me with or without styles (which are just float:left on divs inside the card.) ff 2.0.0.12 op 0.9.1 -- Zach Young From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Fri Mar 21 07:01:24 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (Jim O'Donnell) Date: Fri Mar 21 07:01:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Operator 0.9.1 In-Reply-To: <1e76a9d60803210629w40512ba9l60952c29c7f12ee1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e76a9d60803200805k33d17116t1af98501150e92fd@mail.gmail.com> <1c69ccdc0803201313y5f3a03efo3238e70ab3712009@mail.gmail.com> <1e76a9d60803201345k3c9638d5hd1afc2fd8f0c682f@mail.gmail.com> <1e76a9d60803210629w40512ba9l60952c29c7f12ee1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <942A2E6C-E8DC-4AF4-9D34-8E5D8EB1D337@eatyourgreens.org.uk> I can confirm this - Operator finds the address regardless, but only finds the name 'Andrew Jaswa' if 'show hidden microformats' is ticked. Jim On 21 Mar 2008, at 13:29, Andrew Jaswa wrote: >> Once I find out some more I'll share. > > > Alright so here is what I found out: Op. 0.9.1 does not find the hCard > when the nested divs are floated. > I've also noticed that when the "Show hidden Microformats" is checked > Op will find the hCard. > > > My sample file is found at: http://gotkicked.net/research/uf/ > opbug.html > > Can someone else please confirm this? > > > Andrew Jim O'Donnell jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens From csarven at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 15:35:38 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Fri Mar 21 19:21:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Minimisation of figure Message-ID: Figure case: User avatar or photograph of an individual. I think it would be better to use @alt as the legend content [1] since @alt is required for wheres @title is optional. This will also minimise any redundant information (even though essentially for different purposes). This would be the minimal case: Photo of Albert As opposed to: Photo of Albert Suggesting @alt as the legend text further encourages the authors to use a value for the attribute instead of leaving it empty: Hence, I propose: "If the "legend" class is found on the same element as the "image" class (or the image inferred by the previous rule), then the contents of the title attribute MUST be used as the legend." [1] should be changed from *title* to *alt*. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/figure#Minimisation -Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 22 00:06:06 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 22 00:25:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Minimisation of figure Message-ID: <07939E62-DBA5-429D-A8BB-FA7C33FB3526@tobyinkster.co.uk> Sarven Capadisli wrote: > Hence, I propose: > > "If the "legend" class is found on the same element as the "image" > class (or the image inferred by the previous rule), then the contents > of the title attribute MUST be used as the legend." [1] > > should be changed from *title* to *alt*. The reason for choosing @title over @alt for this purpose is two-fold: 1. The purpose of alternative text and legends differ. Alternative text is meant to be shown when the image cannot be shown -- for example, the resource is unavailable, image loading is disabled, or the browser is not capable of displaying the image format. The legend is meant to be visible alongside the image. Thus the semantics of @alt and legend differ. 2. The principles state "visible data is much better for humans than invisible metadata". For most people (using modern graphical browsers, with image loading enabled), @title is more visible than @alt, the former of which only needs a mouse-over to see the tool tip, whereas the latter requires view-source. -- Toby A Inkster From daniel.oconnor at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 04:25:15 2008 From: daniel.oconnor at gmail.com (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Sat Mar 22 04:25:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Basis for a validator (GRDDL) Message-ID: <106cc1200803220525y56703e81hcc8a1d61691145db@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, If anyone is interested, I've just released a newer version of http://code.google.com/p/xmlgrddl It's a PHP5 library for GRDDL; which can be used to extract microformats. It will Tidy input pages, and you can force it to look for profiles that aren't declared in See also: http://code.google.com/p/xmlgrddl/wiki/UsageExample The result is RDF/XML; and with a bit of elbow grease and xpath; you could make a fairly effective, expandable microformat validator ontop of it. If PHP isn't your flavour, there are heaps of other GRDDL implementations around too. From tjameswhite at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 06:27:49 2008 From: tjameswhite at gmail.com (Tim White) Date: Sat Mar 22 06:27:51 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Minimisation of figure In-Reply-To: <07939E62-DBA5-429D-A8BB-FA7C33FB3526@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <07939E62-DBA5-429D-A8BB-FA7C33FB3526@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 4:06 AM, > Sarven Capadisli wrote: > > > Hence, I propose: > > > > "If the "legend" class is found on the same element as the "image" > > class (or the image inferred by the previous rule), then the contents > > of the title attribute MUST be used as the legend." [1] > > > > should be changed from *title* to *alt*. > Toby A Inkster replied: > The reason for choosing @title over @alt for this purpose is two-fold: > > 1. The purpose of alternative text and legends differ. Alternative > text is meant to be shown when the image cannot be shown -- for > example, the resource is unavailable, image loading is disabled, or > the browser is not capable of displaying the image format. The legend > is meant to be visible alongside the image. Thus the semantics of > @alt and legend differ. > > 2. The principles state > "visible data is much better for humans than invisible metadata". For > most people (using modern graphical browsers, with image loading > enabled), @title is more visible than @alt, the former of which only > needs a mouse-over to see the tool tip, whereas the latter requires > view-source. I agree with Toby. What about modifying the rule to account for both: If the "legend" class is found on the same element as the "image" class (or the image inferred by the previous rule), then the contents of the title attribute MUST be used as the legend. If the title attribute is missing or empty, the alt attribute MAY be used.. Tim White From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 22 06:52:28 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 22 06:52:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Minimisation of figure Message-ID: Tim's suggestion seems like a good compromise, so for the time being at least, I've added it to the draft. For the record, I'd like to note the following edge case:
    Widget sales have plummetted! Widget sales for 2007 Q4.
    Minimisation rule #2 does not apply, as the legend and image classes are found on different elements. The legend is "Widget sales for 2007 Q4". Similarly:
    Widget sales have plummetted! Widget sales for 2007 Q4.
    Same interpretation. I can't imagine that many people would do captions this way though. -- Toby A Inkster From glenn.jones at madgex.com Sat Mar 22 07:28:44 2008 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Sat Mar 22 07:28:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] ufxtract In-Reply-To: <754FC033-18C0-4858-B7A1-27A925F06936@danbri.org> References: <21e523c20803180711q5019cb16jd2e1f423befb78f3@mail.gmail.com><36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01B91131@MOBY.Clarence.local> <754FC033-18C0-4858-B7A1-27A925F06936@danbri.org> Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF01B91134@MOBY.Clarence.local> On 21 Mar 2008, at 11:34, Dan Brickley wrote: > Do you have any plans to > opensource the ufxtract parser code? Because of a complex IP agreement that I am involved in, this could a little time. The good news is that I have managed to take the first steps down this road. > Or is the test suite available? > Did you see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/ and http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/ > for the RDFa testing framework? This is really useful, I am working on a demo POSH test-fixture format and a JavaScript test harness. Hopefully I will post this to the dev list in the next couple of weeks. Thanks Glenn From bbtommorris at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 13:09:44 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Mon Mar 24 13:09:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Github.com add rel=me Message-ID: Github is a service for users of the Git distributed version control system, and provides hosting for open source and commercial software projects. I've been using it for a while. A while back they allowed people to add their profile details, which appeared as an hCard. They now use rel=me! I sent this ticket in to their issue tracker: http://logicalawesome.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8570/tickets/31-add-rel-me-to-links-from-profile-to-homepage-blog Here's my profile: http://github.com/tommorris If you are working on a microformats or SemWeb related project and want an invite, ping me an e-mail off-list and I'll hook you up. I'd appreciate patches too... And if you use a webapp that needs hCard or XFN, do go and ask for it. Sometimes it works. :) -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From ryan at theryanking.com Mon Mar 24 18:02:13 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Mon Mar 24 20:52:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Github.com add rel=me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DEDDE17-C2B8-48F1-A2C4-EFC109DC42AE@theryanking.com> On Mar 24, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Tom Morris wrote: > Github is a service for users of the Git distributed version control > system, and provides hosting for open source and commercial software > projects. I've been using it for a while. A while back they allowed > people to add their profile details, which appeared as an hCard. They > now use rel=me! > > I sent this ticket in to their issue tracker: > http://logicalawesome.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8570/tickets/31-add-rel-me-to-links-from-profile-to-homepage-blog > > Here's my profile: > http://github.com/tommorris Unfortunately, they also put nofollow on those links, which makes them ignored[1]. -ryan 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-clarifications#me_nofollow_interaction From costello at mitre.org Wed Mar 26 11:32:29 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Wed Mar 26 15:29:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? Message-ID: Hi Folks, Recall that a "representative hCard" identifies the person or organization that represents the current web page. Suppose that Alice has a web page on a social network. The web page contains a representative hCard for Alice. On this web page Alice invites her friends to add comments to her page. Bob is one of her friends, and he adds this comment:

    Hi Alice. Nice page. I would like to introduce you to my friend Sally some time.

    Notice the use of XFN: >> rel="friend" << When a robot application encounters Alice's web page it will see the representative hCard for Alice and it will see the XFN-bearing link. Here's the relationship that the robot constructs: Alice is friends with Sally But that's completely wrong. Bob stated the relationship. The correct relationship is: Bob is friends with Sally How would a robot avoid this error? /Roger From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Wed Mar 26 16:19:55 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Wed Mar 26 16:20:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30B484AF-01EC-43C9-A944-B628EA88FD44@ben-ward.co.uk> On 26 Mar 2008, at 19:32, Costello, Roger L. wrote: >

    Hi Alice. Nice page. I would like to introduce you to my > friend href="Sally.html" rel="friend">Sally some time.

    > > Notice the use of XFN: >> rel="friend" << > > When a robot application encounters Alice's web page it will see the > representative hCard for Alice and it will see the XFN-bearing link. > Here's the relationship that the robot constructs: > > Alice is friends with Sally > > But that's completely wrong. Bob stated the relationship. The > correct > relationship is: > > Bob is friends with Sally > > How would a robot avoid this error? The situation you describe there is a publishing problem. If you're graphing social relationships, then the page you're describing has been linked to with rel="me", even though the content of the page is authored by multiple people. A page where other authors can add rel links is unsuitable for use as rel="me" node ? except where the content management system disallows the rel/rev attribute, or XFN values thereof. There's no way for a robot to avoid that parsing error. Ben From info at weborganics.co.uk Wed Mar 26 16:41:50 2008 From: info at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Wed Mar 26 16:49:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1206578510.22764.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 15:32 -0400, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Suppose that Alice has a web page on a social network. The web page > contains a representative hCard for Alice. On this web page Alice > invites her friends to add comments to her page. Bob is one of her > friends, and he adds this comment: > >

    Hi Alice. Nice page. I would like to introduce you to my friend > href="Sally.html" rel="friend">Sally some time.

    Should Bob be marking up his comment in this way? its incorrect usage of @rel, Its Bob who is saying that the current document has the relationship of a friend of Sally which is wrong. I guess it could be avoided if every comment had its own relative url eg: http://someblog.com/post#comment1 http://someblog.com/post#comment2 etc... @rel values express the relationships between two urls... then if Bobs comment was: http://someblog.com/post#comment1

    Bob said...

    Hi Alice. Nice page. I would like to introduce you to my friend Sally some time.

    then the relationship would be http://someblog.com/post#comment1 (Bobs comment) is a friend of Sally.html (Sally) Thanks Martin McEvoy From supercanadian at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 17:02:05 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Wed Mar 26 17:09:26 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? In-Reply-To: <1206578510.22764.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1206578510.22764.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <84ce626f0803261802r55f2fb09td184dd5902c4d4fd@mail.gmail.com> What if you put comments into a
    or a . You could consider XFN in a
    or to be of the person being quoted. So something like...
    Hi Alice. Nice page. I would like to introduce you to my friend Sally some time.
    -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ Vlog Razor... Vlogging News... http://vlograzor.com/ From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Wed Mar 26 17:24:31 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Wed Mar 26 17:24:36 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0803261802r55f2fb09td184dd5902c4d4fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206578510.22764.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <84ce626f0803261802r55f2fb09td184dd5902c4d4fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27 Mar 2008, at 01:02, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > What if you put comments into a
    or a . You could > consider XFN in a
    or to be of the person being > quoted. That might be a valid parsing rule, I'm unsure. Regardless, it's inappropriate for comments. A comment is a piece of original content on the page, not a quote from another source. It would be appropriate for Trackback or Pingback excerpts, though. B From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Wed Mar 26 23:34:09 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Wed Mar 26 23:34:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: >

    Hi Alice. Nice page. I would like to introduce you to my friend href="Sally.html" rel="friend">Sally some time.

    If a page has @rel="me" links then it shouldn't really be allowing comments that can attempt to build social graphs. The simplest way to stop it is to add @rel="nofollow" to any comment links - this has the effect of negating any XFN values in the links, as well as preventing linkspamming and all sort of other good stuff. As others have said, this is a publishing issue rather than a parsing issue. A page that is linked to with @rel="me", and then allows outbound XFN values authored by people who are not the representative, is broken. -Ciaran McNulty From danbri at danbri.org Thu Mar 27 01:59:44 2008 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Thu Mar 27 01:59:49 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 Mar 2008, at 07:34, Ciaran McNulty wrote: > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Costello, Roger L. > wrote: >>

    Hi Alice. Nice page. I would like to introduce you to my >> friend > href="Sally.html" rel="friend">Sally some time.

    > > If a page has @rel="me" links then it shouldn't really be allowing > comments that can attempt to build social graphs. > > The simplest way to stop it is to add @rel="nofollow" to any comment > links - this has the effect of negating any XFN values in the links, > as well as preventing linkspamming and all sort of other good stuff. Where is this interaction specified? Should a compliant XFN parser not emit any data from elements where it finds rel=nofollow? Does that extend to all Microformats.org ('big M') microformats? > As others have said, this is a publishing issue rather than a parsing > issue. A page that is linked to with @rel="me", and then allows > outbound XFN values authored by people who are not the representative, > is broken. Presumably they could *author* the links, but they just have to bear in mind that (if the claims in the page are ever to be true) those links describe the person who is the 'primary topic' (or 'owner') of the page. cheers, Dan -- http://danbri.org/ From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Thu Mar 27 02:20:58 2008 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Thu Mar 27 02:21:02 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] How to avoid building erroneous social network graphs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Dan Brickley wrote: > > On 27 Mar 2008, at 07:34, Ciaran McNulty wrote: > > The simplest way to stop it is to add @rel="nofollow" to any comment > > links - this has the effect of negating any XFN values in the links, > > as well as preventing linkspamming and all sort of other good stuff. > > Where is this interaction specified? Should a compliant XFN parser not > emit any data from elements where it finds rel=nofollow? Does that > extend to all Microformats.org ('big M') microformats? It's specified here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-clarifications#me_nofollow_interaction Actually it looks like it only applies to @rel="me" from the looks of things - I'm not aware of any other uFs that interact with nofollow. > > As others have said, this is a publishing issue rather than a parsing > > issue. A page that is linked to with @rel="me", and then allows > > outbound XFN values authored by people who are not the representative, > > is broken. > > Presumably they could *author* the links, but they just have to bear > in mind that (if the claims in the page are ever to be true) those > links describe the person who is the 'primary topic' (or 'owner') of > the page. Agreed - in that case it becomes an issue of trust as to who you allow to author that sort of content. Any commenting/posting system for 'untrusted' users should be considering how to filter user input anyhow - if you're allowing completely rich HTML editing for third parties you have to accept that they'll do 'bad stuff' sometimes - posting huge images, CSS to blank the page, embedded malicious OBJECTs and so on. I've found the only way to guard against markup abuse that you've not thought of is to have a whitelist-based approach to what content you allow users to author, i.e. a set list of tags/attributes that are acceptable. Blacklisting known abuse routes has always ended up as an exercise in firefighting, in my experience. -Ciaran McNulty -Ciaran McNulty From adam.craven at fourshapes.com Fri Mar 28 09:56:43 2008 From: adam.craven at fourshapes.com (Adam Craven - Four Shapes) Date: Fri Mar 28 10:03:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] The datetime screen reader problem is almost complete bollocks Message-ID: <8EF6F028-9413-445F-85CA-C2B21CA69C93@fourshapes.com> We had a very experienced screen reader user in today (http://www.abilitynet.org.uk/webteam#robin ) testing the new BBC iPlayer mark-up with abbr design pattern. He was adamant that the abbreviation title tag problem was hardly going to affect any screen reader users. Why? Because by default, the title attribute isn't used much. Users of JAWs 9, 7.1, Windows eyes 6.1, Hal 9.91 have to edit the preferences to start reading the title tag in abbr. And users who don't change the default settings are the most important to accommodate - they're in the majority. From these preliminary results it looks like the BBC can push the date-time-pattern and screen readers can play catch-up if needed to. We'll have more in-depth tests and reports done in a month or so. Adam Craven PS. There was an instance where a JAWS preference, 'Abbreviation expansion/meta data' caused unexpected results. It reads the title tag, even when the content is display:none. From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Sat Mar 29 03:34:53 2008 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Sat Mar 29 04:31:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] The datetime screen reader problem is almost complete bollocks In-Reply-To: <8EF6F028-9413-445F-85CA-C2B21CA69C93@fourshapes.com> References: <8EF6F028-9413-445F-85CA-C2B21CA69C93@fourshapes.com> Message-ID: <47EE295D.2070806@googlemail.com> Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote: > He was adamant that the abbreviation title tag problem was hardly going > to affect any screen reader users. Why? Because by default, the title > attribute isn't used much. Users of JAWs 9, 7.1, Windows eyes 6.1, Hal > 9.91 have to edit the preferences to start reading the title tag in > abbr. Thanks for sharing this information with the list, though I did note that reading @TITLE was a non-default configuration option during the extensive discussion of this problem last year: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-April/009416.html > And users who don't change the default settings are the most > important to accommodate - they're in the majority. Sorry, but a problem being rare is not the same as it being "bollocks". Actually, from lurking on mailing lists for screenreader users, changing settings seems commonplace. Of course, correspondents might be disproportionately expert on those lists. However, as I again noted last year, changing the behaviour for @TITLE seemed unlikely to be a popular configuration choice. I don't recall the subject coming up on the lists I'm on since. Of course, someone encountering an accessibility issue with microformats might have no idea what was causing the problem. Still, catering to the "majority" of screenreader users is reasonable if we're using the underlying (X)HTML standards in the right way. I wasn't persuaded that the abbr-date-title pattern was a correct use of ABBR or @TITLE back in April 2007, and I'm still not persuaded today: * I just don't buy that "Monday" is an "abbreviation" of "2007-08-08T12:12" in the same way as "W3C" is an abbreviation of "World Wide Web Consortium". Consequently, I don't think it's a correct use of ABBR. None of the alternatives suggested by the WASP Accessibility Task Force had this particular problem: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/ * More weakly: some versions of ISO date times are more human-friendly (and more screenreader-friendly) than others, but I'm not persuaded that publishers would normally choose such a representation if it weren't intended it for machine rather than human consumption, so I think it's a dodgy use of @TITLE. Given part of the rationale for using @TITLE is to make this data "visible" to end-users, it seems a tad inconsistent to bank on it not being rendered to screenreader users. So I tend to regard abbr-title-date as a failure to live up to microformats' mission to build "upon existing and widely adopted standards": http://microformats.org/about/ > We'll have more in-depth tests and reports done in a month or so. I look forward to these with interest. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 29 09:51:05 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 29 10:01:25 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: The datetime screen reader problem is almost complete bollocks References: <8EF6F028-9413-445F-85CA-C2B21CA69C93@fourshapes.com> <47EE295D.2070806@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <95c2c5-rok.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > Actually, from lurking on mailing lists for screenreader users, changing > settings seems commonplace. I was going to reply to Adam's message last night, but was too tired so went to bed instead. Ben has beaten me to it, and my thoughts on the matter are very much in line with his. Yes, it is true, that for the most part, people do not change their software's initial settings. However, there are a certain class of settings that many people -- perhaps even *most* people (yes, even non- technical people) do change. Probably the best example is desktop wallpaper. How many people do you really know who use their operating system default desktop wallpaper? The question is: is the behaviour of screen readers with regards to the ABBR element one of this special class of frequently changed settings, or is it not? Unless someone can cite actually research into this matter, I'm unhappy to go along with the "it doesn't cause a problem with real-world screen reader users" hypothesis. Ben also raises another point that I wasn't going to mention in my abandoned theoretical late night message. It's another point with which I agree, and have probably mentioned before on this mailing list: that of semantics. Even if all the accessibility problems could be solved overnight, semantically ABBR is often still the wrong element to use - certainly for the datetime design pattern, but also for many other ABBR design pattern use cases. It's just icky -- especially for hCalendar's dtend used with a date (rather than a full datetime). What are the alternatives: The Web Standards Project's suggestion to use OBJECT and PARAM for datetimes is nice, but can cause browser funniness, and it's too much to type anyway. There are issues with simply supporting "title" on any old element. The title attribute is used too much in the wild for us to easily use it. For example, how would this work?:
    Toby Inkster ...
    Personally my preferred solution is Andy Mabbett's suggestion from February this year . This has been implemented in Cognition, my semantic web parser, of which version 0.1alpha6 is due out later today. I can vouch that it's no harder to implement than ABBR, and it's very easy for a tool to support both. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 3 days, 4:45.] Earth Hour http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/29/earth-hour/ From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 29 14:58:33 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 29 15:00:29 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Cognition-0.1-alpha6 Message-ID: I've not posted a release announcement here since alpha3. Microformat- related highlights since then: * Implemented changes to the table header pattern, as documented on the hcalendar-brainstorming wiki page. * Improved handling of nested compound microformats. * Improved support for tagsoup and charset guessing. * Support profiles for microformats. * KML export. * vCard export. * Atom export. * iCalendar output. * Vastly improved HTML to text conversion. Full changelog is here: http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/cognition-latest/ChangeLog Download or try online here: http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ -- Toby A Inkster