From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 1 04:55:48 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 1 05:01:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: using title on anchor, eg event location References: <47C7FC37.6080601@ts0.com> Message-ID: Thom Shannon wrote: > Should parsers use the title of an anchor for the value of a location > property on hCard, No. > or does that title pattern only apply to explicit abbreviations? (using > abbr). Yes, but see also the issues page and potential alternatives (mostly unimplemented in parsers). -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 19:04.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 1 05:16:21 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 1 05:31:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Perl microformat parsing References: <1203552341.3042.557.camel@robslap> <8gvv85-5o6.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <4eo595-fvc.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <5i1o95-gu5.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Toby A Inkster wrote: > There are still a few things that I want to take care of before I > release alpha3 publicly. Took a bit longer than expected, but alpha3 is here: http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ The main microformat-related changes for this version are that data found in microformats can now be output as RDF; rel=enclosure is now supported; hCalendar support conforms to my own draft hCalendar 1.1 spec (see recent thread "To-do items?" on this mailing list) including events, todo items, freebusy and alarms, and supporting RRULE and EXRULE; and I've attempted to support the tabular event calendar parsing rules described on the wiki . I'd appreciate any examples of pages where it fails to properly parse an hCalendar, hCard, geo or adr. I already know it that does occasionally run into issues with characters sets and unrecognised entities, so you don't need to tell me about that. Full change log for this version: - Switch from XML::DOM to XML::LibXML. Should be my last big parser change! - Restructure object to be more tuple-like. - URLs: - Support for CURIEs. - support for geo: and tag: URIs - use XPointer to provide URLs for document fragments without identifiers - RDF: - use to wrap multiple tuples with the same subject and property - Remove duplicate values within bags - add support for microformats to RDF output - RDF subjects may have multiple URIs defined to help match up properties that actually belong to the same subject (e.g. some properties might be attached to a fragment identifier, and others to an hcard, but if we know that the hcard root element has an id attribute which matches the fragment identifier, then we can equate the subjects) - support "vocabularies" for RDF - convert document structure to RDF , . - Improve STRINGIFY to prevent all these leading and trailing spaces - Recognise (X)HTML predefined link types and put them in XHTML namespace. - More reliable support for namespaces. - Microformats: - Properly parse DateTimes found in microformats. - support table cell header pattern - support hcalendar 1.1 draft - Complete support for RDFa - Much improved support for eRDF, support rdf:type. Any bugs? - Improved support for XHTML role attribute -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 19:14.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From miyagawa at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 07:26:05 2008 From: miyagawa at gmail.com (Tatsuhiko Miyagawa) Date: Sat Mar 1 07:26:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Perl microformat parsing In-Reply-To: <4eo595-fvc.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <1203552341.3042.557.camel@robslap> <8gvv85-5o6.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <4eo595-fvc.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <693254b90803010726v5d6317c4j39f1ed509ed6218c@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > > Web::Scraper > > http://search.cpan.org/dist/Web-Scraper/ > > This looks like a handy module for some purposes, but it's not sufficient > for fully parsing microformats: > > 1. It doesn't seem to support the rel attribute on links, so it will fall > down when looking for rel-tag (which is used for encoding categories in > hcard). process q(*[rel~="me"]), "urls[]" => '@href"; > 2. For images, the alt text should normally be returned (except for a few > properties like photo and logo in hcard), but this module doesn't read alt > text. [ It seems that my code kicks Operator's ass in this dept ;-) ] process 'img', text => '@alt'; > Probably other reasons too, but I can't be bothered to think them all > through. These three ought to be enough to deter people from using it for > serious parsing though. Examples shown in the previous email was a quick one. We can use more fully-fledge XPath or DOM API to do the heavy-lifting. > To parse microformats properly you need DOM, or something of similar > sophistication. For what it's worth, for alpha3 of my code I've switched > to XML::LibXML, which is an alternative to XML::DOM. It copes much better > with parsing random HTML off the web, and has namespace support should I > decide I need it for anything. The module uses HTML::TreeBuilder, which is a slick module to give you DOM access to web pages. In the latest svn repository we use the internal to XML::LibXML with "relaxed" options, as well. -- Tatsuhiko Miyagawa From adam.craven at fourshapes.com Tue Mar 4 05:26:37 2008 From: adam.craven at fourshapes.com (Adam Craven - Four Shapes) Date: Tue Mar 4 05:26:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer Message-ID: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> Hi fellers, We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would love to put some microformats in there. Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance there's a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows for that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as it's the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the future. I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern is . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and filled the field with with extra text, date;

Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is an incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around this. Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still keeping relatively good screen reader support?
  • 206x115
    Play TV

    Two pints of Juergen and a ...

    • Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 characters long.

      Expires in 3 days

      More episodes >>

    • Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 characters long.

      Expires in 3 days

      More episodes >>

    • Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 characters long.

      Expires in 3 days

      More episodes >>

    • From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 4 07:53:12 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 4 08:01:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> Message-ID: <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still > keeping relatively good screen reader support? You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution, but IE6 (which plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR element entirely and will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the DOM tree.) So that technique may prove to be of limited utility. The fact is that the microformats datetime design pattern (and to a lesser extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major accessibility problems. This has been known about and discussed for over 18 months, with various alternatives being proposed, some of which have been pretty bad, but others which look very sensible. Probably my favourite so far was Andy Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list which I have implemented and found to be no more difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern. However, despite a lot of proposals having been put forward, the community seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless one. It is fair enough to take time to consider these things carefully before issuing an edict (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would have never ended up with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the community dithers over deciding upon a replacement, more and more instances of this inaccessible pattern are deployed. For what it's worth, the empty anchors in your example code could also cause accessibility problems -- amongst other issues, they can interfere with the tab sequence when keyboard navigation is used. If I were in your place, with as big an audience as the BBC has, I'd go with an accessible alternative datetime pattern and wait for the parsers to catch up with me. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 34 days, 21:38.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Tue Mar 4 08:42:49 2008 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Tue Mar 4 08:42:54 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <36748.80.249.57.38.1204648969.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> On Tue, March 4, 2008 15:53, Toby A Inkster wrote: > The fact is that the microformats datetime design pattern (and to a > lesser extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major accessibility > problems. This has been known about and discussed for over 18 months, > with various alternatives being proposed, some of which have been pretty > bad, but others which look very sensible. Probably my favourite so far was > Andy > Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html> which I have > implemented and found to be no more > difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern. Thank you for confirming that. > However, despite a lot of proposals having been put forward, the > community seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless one. True; that applies to other issues equally, too. > It is > fair enough to take time to consider these things carefully before issuing > an edict (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would have never > ended up with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the community > dithers over deciding upon a replacement, more and more instances of this > inaccessible pattern are deployed. Quite - and, as I've pointed out before, the imminent release of Firefox 3, with native support for microformats, will see a significant leap in public awareness of microformats. -- Andy Mabbett ** via webmail ** From alasdairking at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 09:27:11 2008 From: alasdairking at gmail.com (Alasdair King) Date: Tue Mar 4 09:27:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <7df2c90b0803040927x1d4dc9d3o6bb1d9fa43f46aa6@mail.gmail.com> I'd do two things: 1 Decide on a microformat that'll work, and ignore the accessibility issues. If you do it well, then other sites will copy you and it'll become a de facto standard. Then the assistive technology vendors (like me) will code support for it into their solutions. There'll be a lag, but we'll end up with a microformat standard in actual use. This is clearly a contentious statement. However, the fact that this able, technical and motivated forum has been unable to come up with a agreed accessible format in eighteen months strongly suggests it isn't going to be able to do so with current assistive technology: better, "build it and they will come." I develop a web browser and RSS news reader and various other accessible programs for blind people, including two applications specifically for users of the live BBC radio streams and the BBC Listen Again service. I can attest that microformats would be a great help to assistive technology vendors, but only if they are widely adopted. It is therefore better to deploy a inaccessible-on-day-0 microformat than never to deploy it at all. One extra line of gobbledegook on a web page for a blind user is really not going to present a big problem, they're quite used to ignoring sections of inaccessible content. A strong microformat champion like the BBC would drive other website designers and the assistive technology vendors will follow on. Better a period of inaccessibility than microformats never being adopted because of well-meaning concerns. If you really really want to do something accessible today then get into a conversation with Andy Mabbett: he seems to be the most knowledgeable on accessibility (and will probably vehemently disagree with my position above!). He'll know the best current solution. (Sarcasm) Because, you know, you want your inaccessible Flash content to be accessed via some really accessible HTML! (End of sarcasm) 2 Provide an OPML or RSS feed for your iPlayer content. That's the really accessible format for your blind users, not having to navigate HTML pages. For example, they could then put your feed in their accessible RSS news reader, or I could update my Accessible BBC Listen Again program to read the feed instead of having to screen-scrape (and don't get me started on your iPlayer Flash setup. Why do users have to click on the Flash to start? Why can't I start/stop it programmatically? I can't even extract the swf url. And don't point me to Backstage, grumble, grumble...) No finding the Flash content on the page, no skip navigation, just straight info. Love your work, by the way. Hurrah for the BBC and your splendid website! Best wishes, Dr. Alasdair King WebbIE http://www.webbie.org.uk On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote: > > > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still > > keeping relatively good screen reader support? > > You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution, but IE6 (which > plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR element entirely and > will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the DOM tree.) So that > technique may prove to be of limited utility. > > The fact is that the microformats datetime design pattern (and to a lesser > extent, the ABBR design pattern) suffers from major accessibility > problems. This has been known about and discussed for over 18 months, with > various alternatives being proposed, some of which have been pretty bad, > but others which look very sensible. Probably my favourite so far was Andy > Mabbett's recent suggestion on this very list discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html> which I have > implemented and found to be no more > difficult to parse than the ABBR pattern. > > However, despite a lot of proposals having been put forward, the community > seems to have been very reluctant to actually bless one. It is fair enough > to take time to consider these things carefully before issuing an edict > (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would have never ended up > with a broken datetime design pattern), but while the community dithers > over deciding upon a replacement, more and more instances of this > inaccessible pattern are deployed. > > For what it's worth, the empty anchors in your example code could also > cause accessibility problems -- amongst other issues, they can interfere > with the tab sequence when keyboard navigation is used. > > If I were in your place, with as big an audience as the BBC has, I'd go > with an accessible alternative datetime pattern and wait for the parsers > to catch up with me. > > -- > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS > [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] > [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 34 days, 21:38.] > > Bottled Water > http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Alasdair King From ryan at theryanking.com Tue Mar 4 10:08:39 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Tue Mar 4 10:08:45 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Reflections on community time, rules, guidelines, and banning Andy Message-ID: <43DE894F-7367-4303-80F3-010F896EEE9E@theryanking.com> The admins have recently spent some time reflecting on the past 18 months or so the microformats community, our progress on various efforts, participation, and how time has been spent. One of the larger conclusions is that a significant (majority) of admins' time has been spent dealing with community meta matters, identifying and diagnosing misbehaviors or other community damaging patterns within the community, careful drafting of additional how to play wiki editing [1] and mailing lists [2] guidelines. Unfortunately this has meant that significantly less time has been spent over the past 18 months or more on doing actual microformats work, resolving issues, iterating and improving existing specs and documentation, and helping guide the development of new microformats as well as improve the process for the development thereof based on all the feedback. An analysis of the "how to play" and "mailing list" rules and guidelines has revealed that the vast majority of these rules have been created in response to the community misbehaviors of one individual: Andy Mabbett. This is an acknowledgment that the continued process of identifying a misbehavior, creating a rule to avoid it, and then warning subsequently, has been insufficient, or rather has merely resulted in admins spending most of their time on microformats on administrivia rather than actual microformats, and that this lack of active productive participation is due primarily to the actions of one individual. As a result we have decided to ban Andy Mabbett from community participation (wiki, lists, blog comments, IRC) for a period of 18 months. This is not Andy's first ban and this action is not taken lightly. The how-to-play and mailing-lists pages have been updated with annotations documenting which of the rules have been created directly due to one or more of Andy's actions (wiki edits and/or emails). As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better transparency and accountability. In addition, in the coming days and weeks we will be taking the time to document more how-to-play and mailing-lists rules and guidelines (most of which are directly due to Andy's actions as well) in the hopes of further minimizing community misbehaviors, and making it clearer to newcomers what kinds of behavior are or are not acceptable. Ryan King (on behalf of the microformats admins[3]) [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/admins From bjonkman at sobac.com Tue Mar 4 11:02:13 2008 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Tue Mar 4 11:02:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar for events in a table format Message-ID: <47CD5665.146.144DD3A@bjonkman.sobac.com> Is there an example of hCalendar in a table? The example link for "Web Essentials 05 Session program" on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming is rotten (the domain we05.com has expired). In short, my question is: Do I make each table cell an individual VEVENT? an individual VCALEDAR item? How do I deal with repeated data without hiding text? I want to add microformats to http://sobac.com/brainshare/ The table has a section, but no cells. --Bob. -- -- -- -- Bob Jonkman http://sobac.com/sobac/ SOBAC Microcomputer Services Voice: +1-519-669-0388 6 James Street, Elmira ON Canada N3B 1L5 Cel: +1-519-635-9413 Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Tue Mar 4 13:03:26 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Tue Mar 4 13:01:07 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <47CD5665.146.144DD3A@bjonkman.sobac.com> Message-ID: On 3/4/08 11:02 AM, "Bob Jonkman" wrote: > Is there an example of hCalendar in a table? The example link for "Web > Essentials 05 > Session program" on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming is > rotten (the > domain we05.com has expired). > > In short, my question is: Do I make each table cell an individual VEVENT? an > individual > VCALEDAR item? How do I deal with repeated data without hiding text? > > I want to add microformats to http://sobac.com/brainshare/ The table has a > > section, but no cells. Bob, take a look at: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild#conference_schedules I will also attempt to recover the lost we05.com "Web Essentials 05 Session program" example from archives and see if I can post it somewhere and then add a link to it from that "conference schedules" section. FAQ added: Thanks, Tantek From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Tue Mar 4 14:44:38 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Tue Mar 4 14:44:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format Message-ID: > Is there an example of hCalendar in a table? The example link for > "Web Essentials 05 Session program" on http://microformats.org/wiki/ > hcalendar-brainstorming is rotten (the domain we05.com has expired). Indeed -- I've recently implemented it, but without a decent example I can't be sure whether my implementation in interoperable with anything else. I took a quick peek at http://hg.microformats.org / x2v, but despite indications on the hcalendar-brainstorming page that this pattern is supported by X2V, I couldn't see any evidence for it in the source code. (But then again, I'm no XSLT expert.) I put together this example (using hCard instead of hCalendar, but the principle is the same) for testing. There is nothing special about the use of TH elements for the headers. They are the semantically correct element to use, but TD would work just the same. The THEAD and TBODY elements are optional.
    Full name Role London Address
    Elizabeth Windsor Queen Buckingham Palace
    Gordon Brown Prime Minister 10 Downing Street
    The output should be: BEGIN:VCARD FN:Gordon Brown N:Brown;Gordon ROLE:Prime Minister ADR:;;10 Downing Street;London;;; END:VCARD BEGIN:VCARD FN:Elizabeth Windsor N:Windsor;Elizabeth ROLE:Queen ADR:;;Buckingham Palace;London;;; END:VCARD For the record, here's the algorithm I've used, operating on a clone of the DOM tree (because it makes DOM modifications which you probably want to discard after parsing) For each TD element within a microformat root element (including the root element itself if it's a TD) { Skip to the next TD if there is no "headers" attribute; Split the "headers" attribute on whitespace into individual headers. For each header { Htag = getElementById(header); If Htag has an "axis" attribute, append its value to the TD element's "class" attribute; Create a new DOM "DIV" element, called NewTag; NewTag.setAttribute("class", Htag.getAttribute("class")); Foreach child node of Htag { Clone the child and add it as a child of NewTag; } Add NewTag as a child of the TD; } } After this, the table design pattern has been "normalised", so that the hCalendar/hCard can be parsed as normal without having to worry about the pattern at all. -- Toby A Inkster From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 15:16:41 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Mar 4 15:16:44 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780803041516u2d28b0e3wfd01c16eb37fc44d@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/4, Toby A Inkster : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- i haven't tested your example, but X2V does support the header/id. There are two might issues with the example mark-up. The headers="id_fn" is a sort of call-back to the item with that ID. X2V then takes the children of that ID and looks for any matching properties. So your example of: would need to become: Axis is not used and the class="fn" needs to be a child of the id being referenced. To see a working example, you can visit: http://www.sixnationskickoff.com/ it is hCalendar items, but it is pretty easy to figure out how to use hCard instead. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Wed Mar 5 00:49:10 2008 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Wed Mar 5 00:49:33 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CE5E86.9070804@googlemail.com> Toby A Inkster wrote: >
    Full nameRoleLondon Address
    Elizabeth WindsorQueen > Buckingham Palace >
    Full nameFull name
    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
    Full nameRoleLondon Address
    Elizabeth WindsorQueen > Buckingham Palace >
    Gordon BrownPrime Minister > 10 Downing Street >
    AFAICT this is a double misuse of the, admittedly confusingly specified, HTML 4.01 AXIS attribute: 1) You're using it for machine-readable identifiers ('fn') as though it were CLASS. But it's actually intended for being rendered directly as human-readable information: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#multi-dimension And that's precisely what JAWS does, for instance: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/Surfs_Up/Tables.htm 2) The content of AXIS (e.g. a formatted name) is in the cell on which it is set and the cell then acts as a header for other cells referencing it by ID. The AXIS itself is not inherited by cells to which a TH is a header. In one of the examples from the spec: San Jose San Jose /is/ a location not a label for locations. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk Wed Mar 5 01:45:42 2008 From: jim at eatyourgreens.org.uk (jim@eatyourgreens.org.uk) Date: Wed Mar 5 01:45:46 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer Message-ID: <380-2200833594542113@M2W014.mail2web.com> Hi, JAWS/IE6 will read out . Jon Gibbins has published a useful article about screenreaders and , which specifically mentions the misconception that doesn't work in JAWS. http://dotjay.co.uk/2008/feb/screen-readers-and-abbreviations To avoid using , you could publish the ISO date directly on the page, then hide the element containing the date with display:none? Cheers Jim Original Message: ----------------- From: Toby A Inkster mail@tobyinkster.co.uk Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:53:12 +0000 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer Adam Craven - Four Shapes wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst still > keeping relatively good screen reader support? You mentioned hiding the ABBR with CSS as a solution, but IE6 (which plenty of screen readers hook into) ignores the ABBR element entirely and will not apply styling to it. (It's not even in the DOM tree.) So that technique may prove to be of limited utility. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 5 01:27:11 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 5 02:01:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format References: <21e770780803041516u2d28b0e3wfd01c16eb37fc44d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian Suda wrote: > i haven't tested your example, but X2V does support the header/id. Really? As I say, I only had a quick skim of the code on hg.microformats.org, and don't really know much XSLT anyway, so I may well have missed it. I also think I was explicitly looking for the word "axis" when I was skimming, so may have missed it because of... > So your example of: > Full name > would need to become: > Full name > Axis is not used and the class="fn" needs to be a child of the id > being referenced. That would be contrary to Tantek's guidelines on the Wiki: | If the element is a table data cell , then: | | 1. parse its "headers" attribute as a space separated set of local IDs | | 2. find the and elements referenced by those IDs (call them | header cells) and consider them part of the element being parsed | as follows: | | 1. Treat the header cells as children of the element, ordered by | the order of ids in its "headers" attribute, immediately | following the last child node (text or element) or the | element. (The basic idea is that the content from those | header cells is used to construct the VEVENT, but secondary | to (AFTER) the content in the data cell itself, so that the | data cell can customize/override part of the data in the | header, e.g. if the header cell included both start time and | location, and the event was being held at a different | location). | | 2. Parse the "axis" attribute of a header cell as a comma- | separated list of categories. These categories must be used | in addition to (and before) any class names on that header | cell for determining whether it is a property of the VEVENT. The example I provided will be correctly parsed as hCard according to these guidelines. > To see a working example, you can visit: > http://www.sixnationskickoff.com/ > it is hCalendar items, but it is pretty easy to figure out how to use > hCard instead. Not a particularly useful example: the table headers don't contain any microformat classes. Also, what's up with the extra "uid" classes for each event? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 35 days, 15:22.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From brian.suda at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 02:17:39 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Wed Mar 5 02:17:42 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780803041516u2d28b0e3wfd01c16eb37fc44d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780803050217r1791ae93o2ac257d3fa325c5c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/3/5, Toby A Inkster : > That would be contrary to Tantek's guidelines on the Wiki: --- correct, then we should further discuss this on the dev-list and correct the wiki as needed. > | If the element is a table data cell , then: > | > | 1. parse its "headers" attribute as a space separated set of local IDs > | > | 2. find the and elements referenced by those IDs (call them > | header cells) and consider them part of the element being parsed > | as follows: > | > | 1. Treat the header cells as children of the element, ordered by > | the order of ids in its "headers" attribute, immediately > | following the last child node (text or element) or the > | element. (The basic idea is that the content from those > | header cells is used to construct the VEVENT, but secondary > | to (AFTER) the content in the data cell itself, so that the > | data cell can customize/override part of the data in the > | header, e.g. if the header cell included both start time and > | location, and the event was being held at a different > | location). > | > | 2. Parse the "axis" attribute of a header cell as a comma- > | separated list of categories. These categories must be used > | in addition to (and before) any class names on that header > | cell for determining whether it is a property of the VEVENT. -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 5 03:57:40 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 5 03:58:12 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <7df2c90b0803040927x1d4dc9d3o6bb1d9fa43f46aa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Alasdair King wrote: > This is clearly a contentious statement. However, the fact that this > able, technical and motivated forum has been unable to come up with a > agreed accessible format in eighteen months strongly suggests it isn't > going to be able to do so with current assistive technology: better, > "build it and they will come." In my opinion this is a misrepresentation of the status quo. The reason that no consensus has been agreed for an accessible alternative to the ABBR pattern is not that no accessible alternatives exist; it is not that no alternatives have been suggested; and nor is it a lack of assistive technology support for the suggestions. It is simply that none of the proposed alternative patterns have been rubber-stamped by the powers that be. For example, the following: started two days ago Is perfectly accessible in all tested screen readers (the read the human- readable "started two days ago") and seems to present no problems for any other assistive technology. It is trivial to implement -- simply find all elements (not just SPAN) with title attributes that match the regular expression: /^.*data\:(.*)[\]\}\)]?$/ and take the matching sub-expression (.*) to be the value of the property. It doesn't interfere with the existing ABBR design pattern (which is, occasionally, used in an accessible manner, such as JP in hCard) so can be used in conjunction with it as appropriate; and is highly unlikely to match any false positives on existing web pages. There have been other good suggestions too (though none I think as good as the one shown above) -- it is not suggestions that we lack, but the inertia to make one or more of them "official" and widely implemented. It does not bode well for the accessibility of Microformats that one of the main providers of said inertia has just been banned from the process for 18 months. For my part, I've implemented this "data:" prefix in Cognition and plan on using it when I add hAtom support to demiblog . (hCalendar was previously rolled back out of demiblog due to accessibility concerns. hCard, XFN and rel-tag are currently used though.) -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 35 days, 17:46.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Mar 5 04:07:12 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:07:17 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <36748.80.249.57.38.1204648969.squirrel@www.gradwell.com> Message-ID: On 4/3/08 16:42, "Andy Mabbett" wrote: > as I've pointed out before, the imminent release of Firefox > 3, with native support for microformats, will see a significant leap in > public awareness of microformats. Is this still true? My understanding was that native uf support would not be shipped in FF3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Wed Mar 5 04:12:24 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:10:06 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <21e770780803050217r1791ae93o2ac257d3fa325c5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/5/08 2:17 AM, "Brian Suda" wrote: > 2008/3/5, Toby A Inkster : >> That would be contrary to Tantek's guidelines on the Wiki: >> | If the element is a table data cell , then: >> | >> | 1. parse its "headers" attribute as a space separated set of local IDs >> | >> | 2. find the and elements referenced by those IDs (call them >> | header cells) and consider them part of the element being parsed >> | as follows: >> | >> | 1. Treat the header cells as children of the element, ordered by >> | the order of ids in its "headers" attribute, immediately >> | following the last child node (text or element) or the >> | element. (The basic idea is that the content from those >> | header cells is used to construct the VEVENT, but secondary >> | to (AFTER) the content in the data cell itself, so that the >> | data cell can customize/override part of the data in the >> | header, e.g. if the header cell included both start time and >> | location, and the event was being held at a different >> | location). >> | >> | 2. Parse the "axis" attribute of a header cell as a comma- >> | separated list of categories. These categories must be used >> | in addition to (and before) any class names on that header >> | cell for determining whether it is a property of the VEVENT. > > > --- correct, then we should further discuss this on the dev-list and > correct the wiki as needed. > Given Benjamin's message about the "axis" attribute: and the fact that we've never needed to use the axis attribute in a realworld tabular event example, nor has that step been implemented, I've removed the "Parse the 'axis'..." step. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars Thanks, Tantek From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Mar 5 04:21:00 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:21:05 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> Message-ID: Hi Adam We've had the same problems with http://bbc.co.uk/programmes. For now we've stuck with the standard abbr design pattern but as Mr Mabbett helpfully pointed out our use has potential accessibility issues and definite semantic nastiness. See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation We've spoken to the bbc accessibility and semantic html working groups. The accessibility people said there were no accessibility problems which in the light of discussions here and elsewhere surprises me. I'm still chasing to get a definite answer and some proper testing The conversation is currently in the hands of the UXD cluster I've been pushing to get full coverage testing and an update to the BBC accessibility standards to say either: - you may use microformats - you may use the abbreviation design pattern Or conversely - you may use microformats - you must not use the abbreviation design pattern [And similar for rdf-a] Would be good if you could also raise these questions with Nick Holmes and cc Frances Berriman and me. Ta On 4/3/08 13:26, "Adam Craven - Four Shapes" wrote: > Hi fellers, > > We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would love to > put some microformats in there. > > Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance there's > a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, > using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows for > that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as it's > the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the > future. > > I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern is > . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which > is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with > {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and > filled the field with with extra text, date; > >

    Date: abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2

    > > That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is an > incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around this. > > Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst > still keeping relatively good screen reader support? > > > >
  • >
    > > alt="206x115" /> > >
    > > Play TV > >

    > Two pints of Juergen and a ... >

    >
    >
    >
      >
    • > > >

      title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >
      >

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 > characters long.

      >

      Expires in 3 days

      >
      >

      More episodes >>

      >
      • >
    • > > >

      title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >
      >

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 > characters long.

      >

      Expires in 3 days

      >
      >

      More episodes >>

      >
      • >
    • > > >

      title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >
      >

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 > characters long.

      >

      Expires in 3 days

      >
      >

      More episodes >>

      >
      • >
    > > >
    • > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk Wed Mar 5 04:47:32 2008 From: Michael.Smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Wed Mar 5 04:47:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoops that wasn't meant to go out to the world But whilst I'm here I probably should point out that /most/ bbc services/channels/networks now have uf-ed schedules http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/programmes/schedules http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/schedules/fm http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/programmes/schedules/oxford http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/programmes/schedules I'll leave you to guess the rest of the urls For the moment some schedules are still missing (fivelive, bbc parliament, local radio etc) but they'll be along soon. They're also not properly linked into the site but over time will replace existing bbc schedules currently provided by: http://www.bbc.co.uk/whatson/ Should also note that all of the below still applies. We're looking for clarification on the accessibility / semantic validity of these pages. And we'll let you know if/when we get it ;-) On 5/3/08 12:21, "Michael Smethurst" wrote: > Hi Adam > > We've had the same problems with http://bbc.co.uk/programmes. For now we've > stuck with the standard abbr design pattern but as Mr Mabbett helpfully > pointed out our use has potential accessibility issues and definite semantic > nastiness. > > See here: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation > > We've spoken to the bbc accessibility and semantic html working groups. The > accessibility people said there were no accessibility problems which in the > light of discussions here and elsewhere surprises me. I'm still chasing to > get a definite answer and some proper testing > > The conversation is currently in the hands of the UXD cluster > > I've been pushing to get full coverage testing and an update to the BBC > accessibility standards to say either: > > - you may use microformats > - you may use the abbreviation design pattern > > Or conversely > > - you may use microformats > - you must not use the abbreviation design pattern > > [And similar for rdf-a] > > Would be good if you could also raise these questions with Nick Holmes and > cc Frances Berriman and me. Ta > > > > > > > On 4/3/08 13:26, "Adam Craven - Four Shapes" > wrote: > >> Hi fellers, >> >> We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would love to >> put some microformats in there. >> >> Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance there's >> a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, >> using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows for >> that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as it's >> the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the >> future. >> >> I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern is >> . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which >> is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with >> {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and >> filled the field with with extra text, date; >> >>

    Date:> abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2

    >> >> That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is an >> incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around this. >> >> Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst >> still keeping relatively good screen reader support? >> >> >> >>
  • >>
    >> >> > alt="206x115" /> >> >>
    >> >> Play TV >> >>

    >> Two pints of Juergen and a ... >>

    >>
    >>
    >>
      >>
    • >> >> >>

      > title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>
      >>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >> characters long.

      >>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>
      >>

      More episodes >>

      >>
      • >>
    • >> >> >>

      > title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>
      >>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >> characters long.

      >>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>
      >>

      More episodes >>

      >>
      • >>
    • >> >> >>

      > title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>
      >>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >> characters long.

      >>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>
      >>

      More episodes >>

      >>
      • >>
    >> >> >>
    • >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal > views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. > If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on > it and notify the sender immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to this. > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Mar 5 05:02:20 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Mar 5 05:02:55 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format References: <21e770780803050217r1791ae93o2ac257d3fa325c5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik wrote: > and the fact that we've never needed to use the axis attribute in a > realworld tabular event example, nor has that step been implemented, > I've removed the "Parse the 'axis'..." step. > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars A sensible move, I'd say. Though I've added a note below your change stating that yes, it has been implemented -- by me. Though I plan on un-implementing it now. What could be a very handy addition to this parsing technique would be to say that when the "headers" attribute is not present on table cell X, parsers should: 1. For each TH element in the same row as X, if it has a scope attribute of "row" then assume that it is a header for X. 2. For each TH element in the same column as X, and same TBODY as X, if it has a scope attribute of "col" then assume that it is a header for X. 3. For each TH element in the same column as X, if it is within that table's THEAD or TFOOT, and it has a scope attribute of "col" then assume that it is a header for X. This would make authoring such tables much simpler. Instead of:
    Person England Scotland
    Gordon Brown 10 Downing Street 318-324 High Street, Cowdenbeath
    Elizabeth Windsor Buckingham Palace Balmoral Castle
    One could have:
    Person England Scotland
    Gordon Brown 10 Downing Street 318-324 High Street, Cowdenbeath
    Elizabeth Windsor Buckingham Palace Balmoral Castle
    However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to entry for authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly because of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. Although microformats' general principle is to place the burden of effort onto parsers, implied headers via the scope attribute may shift the effort *too* far in that direction. What do others think? -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 35 days, 18:57.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From scott at randomchaos.com Wed Mar 5 05:43:05 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Wed Mar 5 05:43:23 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> <7df2c90b0803040927x1d4dc9d3o6bb1d9fa43f46aa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2504A441-C48B-4E03-AECF-68A80DAED50F@randomchaos.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 4:57 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > For example, the following: > > class="dtstart">started two days ago > > Is perfectly accessible in all tested screen readers (the read the > human- > readable "started two days ago") and seems to present no problems > for any > other assistive technology. I think the problem is that "seems to." The original pattern seemed to present no problems, but then it did have problems with real screen readers in deployment. So the progress is slow here because it's difficult to get access to such testing, and such testing is very important. See: http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/users.html To avoid repeating the same mistake, we shouldn't rubber stamp any potential solution without first testing with real world screen reader users. Lacking volunteers coming forward to offer such testing, as they have with the include pattern, perhaps we should look into how much it would cost to pay for the testing and see if we can't raise funds to get it done. Peace, Scott From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Wed Mar 5 07:30:46 2008 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek =?ISO-8859-1?B?xw==?=elik) Date: Wed Mar 5 07:28:24 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/5/08 5:02 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to entry for > authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly because > of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. Speaking from the experience of working on a browser rendering engine which *did* have to handle colspan and rowspan, I can certainly state that requiring a microformats parser to perform a table layout (effectively what it takes to support colspan and rowspan) would *drastically* raise the effort necessary and would introduce numerous opportunities for subtle bugs and incompatibilities. I think it would be reasonable to adopt a design principle of *not* requiring microformat parsers to perform a table layout, even if it can be used to make inferring semantics easier. > Although microformats' general principle is to place the burden of effort > onto parsers, implied headers via the scope attribute may shift the effort > *too* far in that direction. What do others think? Yes, very much so too far in that direction. Thanks, Tantek From dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 07:28:31 2008 From: dimitri.glazkov at gmail.com (Dimitri Glazkov) Date: Wed Mar 5 07:28:35 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice Message-ID: Hi all, It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather awkward way: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. :DG< From adam.craven at fourshapes.com Wed Mar 5 07:24:36 2008 From: adam.craven at fourshapes.com (Adam Craven - Four Shapes) Date: Wed Mar 5 08:06:37 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1820298A-17AA-488D-A40D-19331DD6EF1B@fourshapes.com> Thanks everyone for the responses. We especially resonated with the pushing the use of them now in their full format, not quite accessible as they can be. Ultimately microformats are standards-based and there to support accessibility rather than hinder. It's about time screen readers had a reason to move quicker. In firefox 3, microformats should be in http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Product_Requirements_Document (CON-008a). However nothing appears in the latest beta. Having spoke with others internally, the consensus was to use the abbr tag for the time being, and all the caveats that it brings. Adam On 5 Mar 2008, at 12:47, Michael Smethurst wrote: > Whoops that wasn't meant to go out to the world > > But whilst I'm here I probably should point out that /most/ bbc > services/channels/networks now have uf-ed schedules > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/programmes/schedules > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/schedules/fm > http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/programmes/schedules/oxford > http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/programmes/schedules > > I'll leave you to guess the rest of the urls > > For the moment some schedules are still missing (fivelive, bbc > parliament, > local radio etc) but they'll be along soon. They're also not > properly linked > into the site but over time will replace existing bbc schedules > currently > provided by: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/whatson/ > > Should also note that all of the below still applies. We're looking > for > clarification on the accessibility / semantic validity of these > pages. And > we'll let you know if/when we get it ;-) > > > > > > On 5/3/08 12:21, "Michael Smethurst" > wrote: > >> Hi Adam >> >> We've had the same problems with http://bbc.co.uk/programmes. For >> now we've >> stuck with the standard abbr design pattern but as Mr Mabbett >> helpfully >> pointed out our use has potential accessibility issues and definite >> semantic >> nastiness. >> >> See here: >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/formats/animation >> >> We've spoken to the bbc accessibility and semantic html working >> groups. The >> accessibility people said there were no accessibility problems >> which in the >> light of discussions here and elsewhere surprises me. I'm still >> chasing to >> get a definite answer and some proper testing >> >> The conversation is currently in the hands of the UXD cluster >> >> I've been pushing to get full coverage testing and an update to the >> BBC >> accessibility standards to say either: >> >> - you may use microformats >> - you may use the abbreviation design pattern >> >> Or conversely >> >> - you may use microformats >> - you must not use the abbreviation design pattern >> >> [And similar for rdf-a] >> >> Would be good if you could also raise these questions with Nick >> Holmes and >> cc Frances Berriman and me. Ta >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 4/3/08 13:26, "Adam Craven - Four Shapes" > > >> wrote: >> >>> Hi fellers, >>> >>> We're working on the next version of the BBC iPlayer and would >>> love to >>> put some microformats in there. >>> >>> Below is what I've gotten so far. In this particular instance >>> there's >>> a single box (206x115) with an image attached. When hovered over, >>> using JavaScript, the idea is to retrieve the last 7 days of shows >>> for >>> that particular program. I've opted to use the vevent pattern as >>> it's >>> the most widely supported currently - this is open to change in the >>> future. >>> >>> I have a concern though. At the moment the spec's datatime pattern >>> is >>> . Unfortunately screen readers are going to mangle this, which >>> is unacceptable naturally, so I've reverted to hiding the abbr with >>> {display:none} (this will cover the majority of screen readers) and >>> filled the field with with extra text, date; >>> >>>

    >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:>> abbr>Mon 8pm - Radio 2

    >>> >>> That way the information can still be parsed. I understand this is >>> an >>> incorrect implementation, but currently unsure how to work around >>> this. >>> >>> Does anyone have suggestions how this can be worked around whilst >>> still keeping relatively good screen reader support? >>> >>> >>> >>>
  • >>>
    >>> >>> >> alt="206x115" /> >>> >>>
    >>> >>> Play TV >>> >>>

    >>> Two pints of Juergen and a ... >>>

    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
      >>>
    • >>> >>> >>>

      >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>>
      >>>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >>> characters long.

      >>>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>>
      >>>

      More episodes >>

      >>>
      • >>>
    • >>> >>> >>>

      >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>>
      >>>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >>> characters long.

      >>>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>>
      >>>

      More episodes >>

      >>>
      • >>>
    • >>> >>> >>>

      >> title="2008-03-04T00:00:00Z">Date:Mon 8pm - Radio 2

      >>>
      >>>

      Short description of episode lies here. It can be up-to 90 >>> characters long.

      >>>

      Expires in 3 days

      >>>
      >>>

      More episodes >>

      >>>
      • >>>
    >>> >>> >>>
    • >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microformats-discuss mailing list >>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ >> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain >> personal >> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. >> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. >> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in >> reliance on >> it and notify the sender immediately. >> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. >> Further communication will signify your consent to this. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain > personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless > specifically stated. > If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in > reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to this. > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 09:16:06 2008 From: ernest.prabhakar at gmail.com (Ernest Prabhakar) Date: Wed Mar 5 09:16:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Reflections on community time, rules, guidelines, and banning Andy In-Reply-To: <43DE894F-7367-4303-80F3-010F896EEE9E@theryanking.com> References: <43DE894F-7367-4303-80F3-010F896EEE9E@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <6ABC0882-9C28-497F-AF0E-740922A445BE@gmail.com> Hi Ryan, On Mar 4, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Ryan King wrote: > The how-to-play and mailing-lists pages have been updated with > annotations > documenting which of the rules have been created directly due to one > or > more of Andy's actions (wiki edits and/or emails). > > As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those > annotations > to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki history that > caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with their causes > as > well. We believe this will help provide better transparency and > accountability. Thanks for taking the time to explain and document your actions clearly. I'm sure this was a difficult decision, but I appreciate the hard work all of the admins have put in to do this as fairly as possible. Sincerely, Ernest Prabhakar From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 5 10:40:43 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 5 10:40:58 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather > awkward way: > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices > > On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant > manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. > But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. Yeah, I find it strange that they say that they're using hAtom, but then go and mint a new term. Why not just use hAtom and be done with it? Would it be too much to ask for this feature to work with *already deployed content on the web*? Come on, microsoft, you're so close to getting it right here! -ryan From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 5 10:45:40 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 5 10:45:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:30 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > On 3/5/08 5:02 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > >> However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to >> entry for >> authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly >> because >> of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. > > Speaking from the experience of working on a browser rendering > engine which > *did* have to handle colspan and rowspan, I can certainly state that > requiring a microformats parser to perform a table layout > (effectively what > it takes to support colspan and rowspan) would *drastically* raise the > effort necessary and would introduce numerous opportunities for > subtle bugs > and incompatibilities. Though I don't disagree with you that requiring table layout is too much, I just wanted to point out that the current HTML5 draft includes a more fully specified algorithm for determining table headers: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#header-and-data-cell-semantics -ryan From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 10:59:22 2008 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Wed Mar 5 10:59:28 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it seems it would be pretty seamless to have the content work both as a webslice and hatom, no?
    ...
    One could argue that this way only the intended hAtom's will be usable as hSlices... but I'd expect it to have a wider audience from boot if they allowed hAtom as spec'ed... -- Andr? Lu?s On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > Hi all, > > It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather > awkward way: > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices > > On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant > manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. > But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. > > :DG< > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Mar 5 11:13:11 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Mar 5 11:13:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> References: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803051113i3d8ae444p4b7fc94a80949705@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Ryan King wrote: > > On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: > > It looks like Microsoft is adopting microformats, if not in a rather > > awkward way: > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm#webslices > > > > On one hand, I am thrilled to see hAtom implemented in such an elegant > > manner, on the other hand, I am puzzled about the 'hslice' nonsense. > > But hey, I'll take this over some proprietary XML markup any day. > > Yeah, I find it strange that they say that they're using hAtom, but > then go and mint a new term. Why not just use hAtom and be done with > it? Would it be too much to ask for this feature to work with *already > deployed content on the web*? > > > > Come on, microsoft, you're so close to getting it right here! > > -ryan > Yes, it's very odd. I think they may have done this because they (maybe) wanted to - avoid making people think that the "slice" was a weblog - avoid having to use the required elements in hAtom [1] - encapsulate the idea of _one_ thing that's being updated This second one is probably a bigger issue, as I don't know any reasonable way of getting rid of "updated"/"created" and still have a complaint Atom document. Maybe make it be the current datetime? I think this is where the webslice differs from a feed -- it's one thing that's continually being updated, rather than a feed where _new_ things are appearing all the time. The whitepapers can be read here [2]. Note the interesting way of subscribing to a feed (which can only have a single entry, btw): Subscribe to WebSlice I don't see "ref" in HTML 4.01 [3] - something in a new spec or is it broken HTML? If it was part of a standard I could see uses for it, such as encoding IDs. It would have been nice if MS engaged us here, so we could have banged around some ideas (or flew me to Redmond for consultants ;-) My thought would be to do something like this:
    ... the webslice ...
    Regards, etc... [1] which reminds me to get our notes from SGFooCamp for hAtom 0.2 up... [2] http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567 [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#edef-A -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From karns.17 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 11:20:03 2008 From: karns.17 at gmail.com (Jason Karns) Date: Wed Mar 5 11:20:15 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> References: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> Message-ID: <4a1990c40803051120m22414bb3lf1fb7d3a63c4a1fd@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Ryan King wrote: > On Mar 5, 2008, at 7:30 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > On 3/5/08 5:02 AM, "Toby A Inkster" wrote: > > > >> However, implied headers like this while lowering the barrier to > >> entry for > >> authors, would considerably raise the barrier for parsers -- mostly > >> because > >> of colspan and rowspan, which would be an absolute pain to handle. > > > > Speaking from the experience of working on a browser rendering > > engine which > > *did* have to handle colspan and rowspan, I can certainly state that > > requiring a microformats parser to perform a table layout > > (effectively what > > it takes to support colspan and rowspan) would *drastically* raise the > > effort necessary and would introduce numerous opportunities for > > subtle bugs > > and incompatibilities. > > Though I don't disagree with you that requiring table layout is too > much, I just wanted to point out that the current HTML5 draft includes > a more fully specified algorithm for determining table headers: > > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#header-and-data-cell-semantics > > -ryan > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > I am a little worried about dropping support for hCalendar in table markup. If the most semantic markup for a given hCalendar is in a table, then to use hCalendar authors would be required to use less-semantic markup. I think we can all agree this is not a desired side effect of using microformats. We would then have the table-based markup situation of the 90's, only reversed. (using alternative markup such as divs and spans where tables *should* be used). ~Jason From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Mar 5 11:53:49 2008 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Mar 5 11:54:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hCalendar for events in a table format In-Reply-To: <4a1990c40803051120m22414bb3lf1fb7d3a63c4a1fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8DAE6967-1604-4EF9-8A6C-A51DE4240A9A@theryanking.com> <4a1990c40803051120m22414bb3lf1fb7d3a63c4a1fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BE2A588-B7BC-44D0-9535-B1DAA0EF4453@theryanking.com> On Mar 5, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Jason Karns wrote: > > I am a little worried about dropping support for hCalendar in table > markup. If the most semantic markup for a given hCalendar is in a > table, then to use hCalendar authors would be required to use > less-semantic markup. I think we can all agree this is not a desired > side effect of using microformats. We would then have the table-based > markup situation of the 90's, only reversed. (using alternative markup > such as divs and spans where tables *should* be used). No one has suggested that hCalendar not be supported in tables. Tantek was only suggesting that the axis attribute and table layout were not useful and too high a burden, respectively. You can still use the headers attribute to link hCalendar events in a table to their headers. -ryan From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Mar 5 12:02:18 2008 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Mar 5 12:02:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] IE8 + hAtom = hSlice In-Reply-To: <21e523c20803051113i3d8ae444p4b7fc94a80949705@mail.gmail.com> References: <288E0CC3-9C9C-493D-B0FA-D885098C2965@theryanking.com> <21e523c20803051113i3d8ae444p4b7fc94a80949705@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20803051202m7d44723q11dac58883a78eba@mail.gmail.com> I've posted my initial thoughts: http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onaswarm.com http://www.onamine.com From costello at mitre.org Fri Mar 7 08:16:28 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Fri Mar 7 08:16:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] What social networking sites uses XFN to express relationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it can be screen-scraped? Message-ID: Hi Folks, What social networking sites use XFN to express relationship information? In particular, I am seeking sites that let me see and scrape the XFN data. That is, I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the rel="..." on the link. Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but the XFN data is not visible. Thanks! /Roger From scott at randomchaos.com Fri Mar 7 09:01:43 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Mar 7 09:02:14 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] What social networking sites uses XFN to express relationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it can be screen-scraped? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9325996C-CFB6-4DF9-8191-C6F482AB3117@randomchaos.com> On Mar 7, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > What social networking sites use XFN to express relationship > information? > > In particular, I am seeking sites that let me see and scrape the XFN > data. That is, I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the > rel="..." on the link. > > Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but > the XFN data is not visible. It's not a social networking focus, but metafilter.com uses XFN how you're describing. See, for example: http://www.metafilter.com/usercontacts/292 Peace, Scott From ggb at tid.es Fri Mar 7 08:31:30 2008 From: ggb at tid.es (Gustavo Garcia Bernardo) Date: Fri Mar 7 09:31:50 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I was wondering how a web application could publish the support to offer a service for a type of microformat (i.e. hotmail could publish support to add hCards to your agenda and gmaps support to show a geo or addr in a map). Something like IE8 Activities (Microsoft openservice specification) but oriented to microformats (microservices/microactivities). Does it makes sense for you? Do you have any reference to previous work on this field? Thanks a lot, G. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Mar 7 09:13:30 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Mar 7 10:01:21 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: Toby A Inkster wrote: > It is fair enough to take time to consider these things carefully before > issuing an edict (perhaps if that had been done to begin with we would > have never ended up with a broken datetime design pattern), but while > the community dithers over deciding upon a replacement, more and more > instances of this inaccessible pattern are deployed. An example of the inaccessible datetime pattern can now be seen in the Microsoft WebSlice whitepaper[1]. The further it spreads, the harder it will be to fix. (Also it's worth noting that the first four HTML examples in the paper contain invalid HTML.) ____ 1. http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx? ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567 -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 37 days, 23:28.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From hober0 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 10:45:31 2008 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Fri Mar 7 10:46:10 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: What social networking sites uses XFN to express relationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it can be screen-scraped? References: Message-ID: Hi Roger, > Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but > the XFN data is not visible. I'm not sure what this could mean. If you mean, by visible: > I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the rel="..." on the > link. then WordPress does indeed make its XFN data visible. In fact, there's no other way to use XFN. Have I misunderstood your question? From costello at mitre.org Fri Mar 7 13:46:15 2008 From: costello at mitre.org (Costello, Roger L.) Date: Fri Mar 7 13:46:18 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: What social networking sites uses XFN to expressrelationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it canbe screen-scraped? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, I have a blog account on WordPress.com When I add an individual to my blogroll the user interface on WordPress.com gives me the ability to designate the individual as friend, co-worker, etc (all the XFN values). After adding the individual I see a web page containing the link to the new individual. But when I do View Page Source on that web page I do not see the XFN stuff on the link. For example, here is a link on my blogroll: adambosworth.wordpress.com Notice that there is no rel="..." on the link. Also, I noticed on the wiki page [1] this tidbit about WordPress: "An open-source Weblogging package that offers XFN annotation of its internally-stored list of links." Notice the phrase: "internally-stored" So, between my own experience on WordPress.com, and this wiki tidbit I have come to the conclusion that the XFN information is not visible. But I hope to be proven wrong! /Roger http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/tools -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Edward O'Connor Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:46 PM To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: What social networking sites uses XFN to expressrelationships and makes the XFN data visible so that it canbe screen-scraped? Hi Roger, > Apparently WordPress uses XFN to express relationship information, but > the XFN data is not visible. I'm not sure what this could mean. If you mean, by visible: > I want to be able to do View Page Source and see the rel="..." on the > link. then WordPress does indeed make its XFN data visible. In fact, there's no other way to use XFN. Have I misunderstood your question? _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From alasdairking at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 14:48:52 2008 From: alasdairking at gmail.com (Alasdair King) Date: Fri Mar 7 14:48:55 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Putting microformats on the BBC iPlayer In-Reply-To: References: <1E444602-CAE1-411A-961B-D6C66F5ED0F3@fourshapes.com> <8s70a5-7gu.ln1@ophelia.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <7df2c90b0803071448w2742b57ape831d79c37a7dcdc@mail.gmail.com> > Toby A Inkster wrote: > An example of the inaccessible datetime pattern can now be seen in the > Microsoft WebSlice whitepaper[1]. The further it spreads, the harder it > will be to fix. > ____ > 1. http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx? > ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567 The further it spreads, the more likely Freedom Scientific are to add support for it. Then it isn't inaccessible. Inaccessible has three meanings: you just can't make it accessible (e.g. an image without an alt tag), you could make it accessible because it's machine-readable but it isn't right now (e.g. the datetime pattern), and it's theoretically-accessible but most/many people with a disability find it too hard to use (e.g. the iPlayer online Flash content). The first is absolutely bad. The second is bad if you have no chance of vendors adding support for it, but I'd argue that it may be better than not progressing a technology that has potential benefits for assistive technology users. The third is bad but stops being "accessibility" and starts being "usability" and more a matter for individual developers and situations. Of course, the devil is in telling your "inaccessible and always will be" from "inaccessible until it's supported"! But if we have Microsoft - and the BBC? - using a particular microformat... Best wishes, Alasdair King -- Alasdair King From ggb at tid.es Fri Mar 7 14:46:27 2008 From: ggb at tid.es (Gustavo) Date: Fri Mar 7 15:47:27 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices Message-ID: <47D1C5C3.3020401@tid.es> Hi all, I was wondering how a web page could publish a service for a type of microformat (i.e. hotmail could publish support to add hCards to your agenda and gmaps support to show a geo or addr in a map). Something like IE8 Activities (Microsoft openservice specification) but oriented to microformats (microservices/microactivities?). Does it makes sense for you? Do you have any reference to previous work on this field? Thanks a lot, G. From bbtommorris at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 16:37:55 2008 From: bbtommorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris) Date: Fri Mar 7 16:37:59 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] microservices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Gustavo Garcia Bernardo wrote: > I was wondering how a web application could publish the support to offer a service for a type of microformat (i.e. hotmail could publish support to add hCards to your agenda and gmaps support to show a geo or addr in a map). > > Something like IE8 Activities (Microsoft openservice specification) but oriented to microformats (microservices/microactivities). > I'm not sure there is a compelling need for them at the moment. Currently if you want to implement a service, you can quite easily write an Operator plugin. Often data from the Web (including microformatted data) will need pre-processing before submitting to a service - which would seem to make coming up with a 'service specification' both difficult and impractical. The approach of specifying a 'web service' language has been fraught with difficulties - as the current trend towards RESTful services instead of Web Services Architecture shows. It would be a good idea to collect alongside microformats and other formats on the Web (whether embedded in markup or in other formats) possible services which they are, could or should be compatible with. If there is a common set of patterns between them, then perhaps it would be appropriate to standardise them in some way. I may be wrong - in which case, it's probably a good idea if we see if Microsoft's OpenService stuff gets implemented anywhere outside of Internet Explorer 8. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ From lorenzo.detomasi at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 01:11:44 2008 From: lorenzo.detomasi at gmail.com (Lorenzo De Tomasi) Date: Sat Mar 8 01:11:48 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom in Wordpress or Php: Iso 8601 timestamp Message-ID: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> ISO 8601 timestamp in WordPress and Php < http://isotype.org/2008/01/29/wp_iso8601_timestamp/ > I'm trying to create a new version of Kubrik WordPress template, compliant to Microformats hAtom. To do this I need to output a timestamp compliant to the ISO 8601 standard, defined in the RFC 3339. It's not easy as it should be? Microformats code for the timestamp of this post should be: January 29, 2008, 11:42 am, where 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 is the ISO 8601 timestamp. WordPress has not a founction that outputs a standard ISO 8601 timestamp. The date and time when a post has been published can be called using WP functions the_time and the date, that follow php rules. The best result you can achieve using default WP 2.3.1/Php commands is 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100, without : in the time-offset (+0100 should be +01:00). , , that is the default DATE_ISO8601 datetime constant, as defined on pear. So, if you want this result, it's better to use . But now the question is which is the correct ISO 8601 timestamp? 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 or 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100? -- Lorenzo De Tomasi Designer multimodale http://www.ipernico.it http://www.isotype.org (in costruzione) From scott at randomchaos.com Sat Mar 8 09:42:28 2008 From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sat Mar 8 09:42:30 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom in Wordpress or Php: Iso 8601 timestamp In-Reply-To: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11E8AEE8-8CA7-46B2-B94D-481E68B6BFF7@randomchaos.com> On Mar 8, 2008, at 2:11 AM, Lorenzo De Tomasi wrote: > But now the question is which is the correct ISO 8601 timestamp? > 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 or 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100? Both are valid per ISO 8601. Here's the full spec: http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/4021199/ISO_8601_2004_E.zip?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=4021199 From section 4.2.5.1: "Basic format: ?hhmm Example: +0100 ?hh +01 Extended format: ?hh:mm Example: +01:00" While both are valid, hh:mm is probably more friendly to screen readers. If you're running PHP 5, you can get the full ISO 8601 representation with the_time( 'c' ). Peace, Scott From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 8 11:17:46 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 8 12:01:22 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: hAtom in Wordpress or Php: Iso 8601 timestamp References: <5c2a5c380803080111w52ecd4dcu6f5ccd5536acb601@mail.gmail.com> <11E8AEE8-8CA7-46B2-B94D-481E68B6BFF7@randomchaos.com> Message-ID: Scott Reynen wrote: > Lorenzo De Tomasi wrote: > >> But now the question is which is the correct ISO 8601 timestamp? >> 2008-01-29T11:42:00+01:00 or 2008-01-29T11:42:00+0100? > > Both are valid per ISO 8601. True. But it is worth remembering that ISO 8601 encompases a whole range of different datetime formats. The datetime as I write this paragraph could be recorded variously as: 2008-03-08T19:03:12.000000+00:00 20080308T190312Z 2008-W10-6T190312+0000 2008W106T190312.000+0000 2008-068T190312.0Z 2008068T19:03:12Z Most applications do not want to have to parse so many different datetime formats, so specify a subset ("profile") of ISO8601 which they support. The datetime design pattern states that microformats SHOULD use a profile of ISO8601 to use, and that profile SHOULD be RFC 3339 and/or W3CDTF, neither of which support the colon-free UTC offset. Of course, to be annoying, none of the microformats which actually make use of the datetime design pattern (hCalendar, hCard, hAtom, hReview) actionally *do* specify which profile of ISO8601 to use, implying that you can basically choose your favourite ISO8601 date format and use that. 2008W106T190312.000+0000, here I come! In fact, hCard and hReview don't even normatively reference ISO8601, so theoretically First of June 1980 should be allowed, though that's just being plain cruel to parsers! -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 39 days, 1:16.] Bottled Water http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/ From msporny at digitalbazaar.com Sat Mar 8 13:45:52 2008 From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny) Date: Sat Mar 8 13:46:01 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett Message-ID: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by the admins for 18 months[1]. This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: - Andy is one of our most prolific contributors, this community will be harmed by such a long-term ban. - An 18 month ban does not fit Andy's behavior - it is an unjust punishment. - Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation. - Andy pushes the limits in this community, and because of him, we know what is and is not acceptable in this community. - Andy says what some of the rest of us are thinking, and he shouldn't be banned for such an extreme length of time for voicing his opinion. Andy is one of our most prolific contributors --------------------------------------------- Maybe most of you are unaware of Andy's contributions to this community. I took the time to write a script to download and analyze the entire history on Microformats.org's mailing lists (the script is attached to this e-mail). Here are the top contributors to the microformats-discuss mailing list: andy mabbett - 1133 posts - 9.68% of contributions ryan king - 885 posts - 7.56% of contributions tantek celik - 833 posts - 7.11% of contributions scott reynen - 504 posts - 4.30% of contributions brian suda - 467 posts - 3.99% of contributions david janes - 432 posts - 3.69% of contributions chris messina - 388 posts - 3.31% of contributions charles krempeaux - 233 posts - 1.99% of contributions mike schinkel - 193 posts - 1.65% of contributions dr. ernie prabhakar - 188 posts - 1.61% of contributions danny ayers - 171 posts - 1.46% of contributions kevin marks - 145 posts - 1.24% of contributions ciaran mcnulty - 135 posts - 1.15% of contributions frances berriman - 134 posts - 1.14% of contributions ben ward - 126 posts - 1.08% of contributions bruce d'arcus - 120 posts - 1.02% of contributions paul wilkins - 119 posts - 1.02% of contributions dimitri glazkov - 110 posts - 0.94% of contributions benjamin west - 107 posts - 0.91% of contributions Here are the top-10 contributors to the microformats-new mailing list: manu sporny - 298 posts - 19.13% of contributions martin mcevoy - 238 posts - 15.28% of contributions andy mabbett - 182 posts - 11.68% of contributions scott reynen - 148 posts - 9.50% of contributions brian suda - 62 posts - 3.98% of contributions tantek celik - 37 posts - 2.37% of contributions david janes - 36 posts - 2.31% of contributions guillaume lebleu - 27 posts - 1.73% of contributions frances berriman - 26 posts - 1.67% of contributions julian stahnke - 20 posts - 1.28% of contributions It is quite evident from this data that Andy has produced more than anyone else in this community, even assuming that 10% of the threads that he starts result in a ban on his account. I know of no other community that would treat one of their primary contributors in this manner. An 18 month ban doesn't fit Andy's behavior ------------------------------------------- Banning somebody for 18 months is quite a serious amount of time, and while the admins might not have come to the decision lightly, I do question whether the punishment is justified. If you look at the documented rules that were added/changed due to Andy[2], you will note that a whopping 13 of the 17 are EDITORIAL rules. The other 4 are behavioral rules that Andy has broken in the past (as have several others on the mailing list). I am not defending bad behavior, just noting that part of the reason that Andy is being banned is due to these EDITORIAL rules that he has broken and I don't think that an 18 month ban is justified for breaking editorial rules. His behavior as of late has been much calmer and more respectful, so I see no reason why this ban has appeared, seemingly out of the blue, at this time. Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation -------------------------------------------------------- There is still no documentation as to what Andy has done in the past to warrant this type of ban. In the admin's post to the list, the following was mentioned: > As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those > annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki > history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with > their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better > transparency and accountability. The time to generate transparency and accountability is BEFORE a ban, not after. This is why people are tried as innocent in most parts of the world - you may discover that what you think to be evidence against Andy falls down upon closer examination. This sends a dubious message indeed - "The admins can ban you and then, ex post facto, document the reasons why they banned you". This is backwards. Andy pushes the limits in this community ---------------------------------------- I wouldn't expect that the people that have not started a company, a cause, or tried to change something for the better will fully understand this concept, but here goes. First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. ?Mahatma Gandhi Anyone that has tried to change the status quo knows that good people will fight you just because you are trying to enact change. They do it because they don't know what the world looks like with the change that you are attempting to impose. I know Andy well enough to know that he is fighting to change this community for the better, and while he may not always approach the problem from the proper direction, he does have this community's best interests in mind. Why else would he spend so much time as to become the #1 contributor as far as raw posts to the community go? This behavior to affect constant change should not be punished - it is a recipe for languishing in mediocrity. I've felt this pressure from the admins when working on hAudio and it makes it that much more difficult to volunteer to be treated as a pariah (also known as a new Microformat contributor). I have had more purposeful discussion with people off-list than on-list as of late - most of it revolving around how those that try to push the limits of Microformats are quickly beaten down instead of taken seriously. Writing off Andy Mabbett in this way is further proof, in my mind at least, that the admins don't respect that particular aspect of doing something revolutionary. Pushing the limits should be rewarded, not punished. Andy should not be banned for voicing his opinion ------------------------------------------------- Andy is best known for voicing his opinion quite loudly, and while I don't +1 everything he says, I agree with a great deal of the criticisms he has about this community - namely how the admins operate. You guys make Dick Cheney look downright candid at times. With respect, I have no idea how Drew McLellan, Eric A. Meyer, and Dan Cederholm became admins. Is there a secret handshake? Were they voted into the position? How are these things done? Andy has been a critic as to the somewhat secretive nature of the admins, and this looks like you guys are just beating up on him due to lack of progress made in Microformats over the past 18 months. In other words - he's being turned into a scapegoat for his criticism of how the admins in this community operate and for the lack of progress made. The problem isn't Andy Mabbett - it's the Microformats Process. Closing statements ------------------ This ban turns my stomach. I'm starting to not enjoy working in this community - especially since you've gotten rid of one of the key people that argued with us about the future direction of hAudio. Personally, I butted heads with Andy on numerous occasions with regard to the hAudio uF specification. The result was a better specification because we actually listened to what Andy was saying, instead of taking his curt replies to be disrespectful. I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted completely. I do not see the justification for the length of this ban - no documentation has been provided to back up the claims for the ban. I'm attempting to understand the behavior of the admins - if you respect the members in this community, please make an honest effort in responding to each point in this e-mail. with respect, -- manu [1]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-March/011674.html [2]http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play -- Manu Sporny President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: RDFa Basics in 8 minutes (video) http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/01/07/rdfa-basics/ --------------------------------------- #!/bin/sh # # Retrieves all of the mailing list archive indexes. for year in 2005 2006 2007 2008 ; do for month in January February March April May June July August September October November December ; do echo "Getting $year $month..." wget -O ufdiscuss-$year-$month.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/$year-$month/thread.html wget -O ufnew-$year-$month.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/$year-$month/thread.html done done --------------------------------------- #!/usr/bin/env python # # Analyzes a Mailman mailing list and displays the top-posters. # # @author Manu Sporny import sys, os gPosts = 0 gPostsByUser = {} def dictionaryComparator(a, b): if(a[1] > b[1]): return 1 else: return 0 ## # Sorts a given dictionary and returns an ordered list of items # # @param dictionary the dictionary to sort. def sortItems(dictionary): items = dictionary.items() items.sort(lambda (k1,v1),(k2,v2): cmp(v2,v1)) return [(key, value) for key, value in items] ## # Analayze the files given on the command line. # # @param argv the arguments from the command line # @param stdout standard output for the program. # @param environ the environment variables for the program. def analyze(argv, stdout, environ): global gPosts global gPostsByUser # Get all of the statistics from each HTML file for filename in argv[1:]: #print filename tfile = open(filename, "r") for line in tfile: if("" == line[:3]): name = line[3:].strip().lower() if(name == "david janes -- blogmatrix"): name = "david janes" #print "Name", name if(gPostsByUser.has_key(name)): gPostsByUser[name] += 1 else: gPostsByUser[name] = 1 gPosts += 1 # Dump out the statistics items = sortItems(gPostsByUser) for item in items: print "%20s - %3i posts - %1.2f%% of contributions" % \ (item[0], item[1], (float(item[1])/float(gPosts) * 100.0)) # Call main function if run from command line. # if __name__ == "__main__": analyze(sys.argv, sys.stdout, os.environ) From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Mar 8 14:22:04 2008 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:22:32 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett Message-ID: <5F5BA450-6AC4-4659-B2AB-A88B97B744A3@tobyinkster.co.uk> Manu Sporny wrote: > I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted > completely. I shall be concise, because Manu has already gone into plenty of details, but... +1 -- Toby A Inkster From csarven at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:27:50 2008 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:27:52 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: I must say I was embarrassed to read Manu's response to Andy's ban due to not speaking out about the ban sooner. I felt that there must have been something that the admins knew better then myself about this 'slowing down the process' business. I was nevertheless shocked to hear about the ban simply knowing that Andy has been far more involved in the community then anyone else (as Manu rightfully pointed out). I had no problems following his contributions and I'm glad he took the time to put them forward. Instead of banning someone that pushes the community forward (at least in my view), why not make use of such great resource and work together? If you feel that someone is holding the community back from moving forward due to their reasoning, then present your case - I'm sure the community will settle on the right approach sooner or later. At least it will be documented. Just my two cents. -Sarven On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping > assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard > data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: > > - Andy is one of our most prolific contributors, this community will be > harmed by such a long-term ban. > - An 18 month ban does not fit Andy's behavior - it is an unjust > punishment. > - Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation. > - Andy pushes the limits in this community, and because of him, we know > what is and is not acceptable in this community. > - Andy says what some of the rest of us are thinking, and he shouldn't > be banned for such an extreme length of time for voicing his opinion. > > Andy is one of our most prolific contributors > --------------------------------------------- > > Maybe most of you are unaware of Andy's contributions to this community. > I took the time to write a script to download and analyze the entire > history on Microformats.org's mailing lists (the script is attached to > this e-mail). Here are the top contributors to the microformats-discuss > mailing list: > > andy mabbett - 1133 posts - 9.68% of contributions > ryan king - 885 posts - 7.56% of contributions > tantek celik - 833 posts - 7.11% of contributions > scott reynen - 504 posts - 4.30% of contributions > brian suda - 467 posts - 3.99% of contributions > david janes - 432 posts - 3.69% of contributions > chris messina - 388 posts - 3.31% of contributions > charles krempeaux - 233 posts - 1.99% of contributions > mike schinkel - 193 posts - 1.65% of contributions > dr. ernie prabhakar - 188 posts - 1.61% of contributions > danny ayers - 171 posts - 1.46% of contributions > kevin marks - 145 posts - 1.24% of contributions > ciaran mcnulty - 135 posts - 1.15% of contributions > frances berriman - 134 posts - 1.14% of contributions > ben ward - 126 posts - 1.08% of contributions > bruce d'arcus - 120 posts - 1.02% of contributions > paul wilkins - 119 posts - 1.02% of contributions > dimitri glazkov - 110 posts - 0.94% of contributions > benjamin west - 107 posts - 0.91% of contributions > > Here are the top-10 contributors to the microformats-new mailing list: > > manu sporny - 298 posts - 19.13% of contributions > martin mcevoy - 238 posts - 15.28% of contributions > andy mabbett - 182 posts - 11.68% of contributions > scott reynen - 148 posts - 9.50% of contributions > brian suda - 62 posts - 3.98% of contributions > tantek celik - 37 posts - 2.37% of contributions > david janes - 36 posts - 2.31% of contributions > guillaume lebleu - 27 posts - 1.73% of contributions > frances berriman - 26 posts - 1.67% of contributions > julian stahnke - 20 posts - 1.28% of contributions > > It is quite evident from this data that Andy has produced more than > anyone else in this community, even assuming that 10% of the threads > that he starts result in a ban on his account. I know of no other > community that would treat one of their primary contributors in this manner. > > An 18 month ban doesn't fit Andy's behavior > ------------------------------------------- > > Banning somebody for 18 months is quite a serious amount of time, and > while the admins might not have come to the decision lightly, I do > question whether the punishment is justified. If you look at the > documented rules that were added/changed due to Andy[2], you will note > that a whopping 13 of the 17 are EDITORIAL rules. The other 4 are > behavioral rules that Andy has broken in the past (as have several > others on the mailing list). I am not defending bad behavior, just > noting that part of the reason that Andy is being banned is due to these > EDITORIAL rules that he has broken and I don't think that an 18 month > ban is justified for breaking editorial rules. > > His behavior as of late has been much calmer and more respectful, so I > see no reason why this ban has appeared, seemingly out of the blue, at > this time. > > Andy was tried as guilty, without complete documentation > -------------------------------------------------------- > > There is still no documentation as to what Andy has done in the past to > warrant this type of ban. In the admin's post to the list, the following > was mentioned: > > > As time permits, the admins will both hyperlink each of those > > annotations to the specific email in the archives or edit in the wiki > > history that caused it, as well as annotate any remaining rules with > > their causes as well. We believe this will help provide better > > transparency and accountability. > > The time to generate transparency and accountability is BEFORE a ban, > not after. This is why people are tried as innocent in most parts of the > world - you may discover that what you think to be evidence against Andy > falls down upon closer examination. > > This sends a dubious message indeed - "The admins can ban you and then, > ex post facto, document the reasons why they banned you". This is backwards. > > Andy pushes the limits in this community > ---------------------------------------- > > I wouldn't expect that the people that have not started a company, a > cause, or tried to change something for the better will fully understand > this concept, but here goes. > > First they ignore you. > Then they laugh at you. > Then they fight you. > Then you win. > > ?Mahatma Gandhi > > Anyone that has tried to change the status quo knows that good people > will fight you just because you are trying to enact change. They do it > because they don't know what the world looks like with the change that > you are attempting to impose. I know Andy well enough to know that he is > fighting to change this community for the better, and while he may not > always approach the problem from the proper direction, he does have this > community's best interests in mind. Why else would he spend so much time > as to become the #1 contributor as far as raw posts to the community go? > > This behavior to affect constant change should not be punished - it is a > recipe for languishing in mediocrity. I've felt this pressure from the > admins when working on hAudio and it makes it that much more difficult > to volunteer to be treated as a pariah (also known as a new Microformat > contributor). > > I have had more purposeful discussion with people off-list than on-list > as of late - most of it revolving around how those that try to push the > limits of Microformats are quickly beaten down instead of taken > seriously. Writing off Andy Mabbett in this way is further proof, in my > mind at least, that the admins don't respect that particular aspect of > doing something revolutionary. > > Pushing the limits should be rewarded, not punished. > > Andy should not be banned for voicing his opinion > ------------------------------------------------- > > Andy is best known for voicing his opinion quite loudly, and while I > don't +1 everything he says, I agree with a great deal of the criticisms > he has about this community - namely how the admins operate. > > You guys make Dick Cheney look downright candid at times. > > With respect, I have no idea how Drew McLellan, Eric A. Meyer, and Dan > Cederholm became admins. Is there a secret handshake? Were they voted > into the position? How are these things done? > > Andy has been a critic as to the somewhat secretive nature of the > admins, and this looks like you guys are just beating up on him due to > lack of progress made in Microformats over the past 18 months. > > In other words - he's being turned into a scapegoat for his criticism of > how the admins in this community operate and for the lack of progress made. > > The problem isn't Andy Mabbett - it's the Microformats Process. > > Closing statements > ------------------ > > This ban turns my stomach. I'm starting to not enjoy working in this > community - especially since you've gotten rid of one of the key people > that argued with us about the future direction of hAudio. > > Personally, I butted heads with Andy on numerous occasions with regard > to the hAudio uF specification. The result was a better specification > because we actually listened to what Andy was saying, instead of taking > his curt replies to be disrespectful. > > I'd like to see the ban on Andy reduced to a month or lifted completely. > I do not see the justification for the length of this ban - no > documentation has been provided to back up the claims for the ban. > > I'm attempting to understand the behavior of the admins - if you respect > the members in this community, please make an honest effort in > responding to each point in this e-mail. > > with respect, > > -- manu > > [1]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-March/011674.html > [2]http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play > > -- > Manu Sporny > President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. > blog: RDFa Basics in 8 minutes (video) > http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/01/07/rdfa-basics/ > > --------------------------------------- > #!/bin/sh > # > # Retrieves all of the mailing list archive indexes. > > for year in 2005 2006 2007 2008 ; > do > for month in January February March April May June July August > September October November December ; > do > echo "Getting $year $month..." > wget -O ufdiscuss-$year-$month.html > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/$year-$month/thread.html > > wget -O ufnew-$year-$month.html > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/$year-$month/thread.html > done > done > > --------------------------------------- > #!/usr/bin/env python > # > # Analyzes a Mailman mailing list and displays the top-posters. > # > # @author Manu Sporny > import sys, os > > gPosts = 0 > gPostsByUser = {} > > def dictionaryComparator(a, b): > if(a[1] > b[1]): > return 1 > else: > return 0 > > ## > # Sorts a given dictionary and returns an ordered list of items > # > # @param dictionary the dictionary to sort. > def sortItems(dictionary): > items = dictionary.items() > items.sort(lambda (k1,v1),(k2,v2): cmp(v2,v1)) > return [(key, value) for key, value in items] > > ## > # Analayze the files given on the command line. > # > # @param argv the arguments from the command line > # @param stdout standard output for the program. > # @param environ the environment variables for the program. > def analyze(argv, stdout, environ): > global gPosts > global gPostsByUser > > # Get all of the statistics from each HTML file > for filename in argv[1:]: > #print filename > tfile = open(filename, "r") > for line in tfile: > if("" == line[:3]): > name = line[3:].strip().lower() > if(name == "david janes -- blogmatrix"): > name = "david janes" > #print "Name", name > if(gPostsByUser.has_key(name)): > gPostsByUser[name] += 1 > else: > gPostsByUser[name] = 1 > gPosts += 1 > > # Dump out the statistics > items = sortItems(gPostsByUser) > for item in items: > print "%20s - %3i posts - %1.2f%% of contributions" % \ > (item[0], item[1], (float(item[1])/float(gPosts) * 100.0)) > > # Call main function if run from command line. > # > if __name__ == "__main__": > analyze(sys.argv, sys.stdout, os.environ) > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From jeff at jeffmcneill.com Sat Mar 8 14:38:45 2008 From: jeff at jeffmcneill.com (Jeff McNeill) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:38:47 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <519fa62f0803081438y6c6747a7r1638a57069faebdb@mail.gmail.com> +1 -- Sincerely, Jeff McNeill http://jeffmcneill.com/ On 3/8/08, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > sooner. It has come to my attention that Andy Mabbett has been banned by > the admins for 18 months[1]. > > This is an unjust punishment, especially considering that he is one of > the largest contributors to our community. Rather than make sweeping > assertions and accusations, I'm going to back this post up with hard > data. Here are the statements that will be addressed: From supercanadian at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:42:50 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:42:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0803081442v3c19bc44o514368bcacf6720e@mail.gmail.com> Hello On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: [...] > I have had more purposeful discussion with people off-list than on-list as of late Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with this too. A number things I've done lately have been under the banner of Semantic HTML (POSH) when they were probably more appropriate for the uf-new mailing list. I don't know if it's an image problem or some people have been "rubbed" the wrong way, but a number of people I know just don't want to do things on here. (And we've done our work "off list".) Which is unfortunate. I like things to be different. I think Microformats.org -- the mailing lists and the wiki -- provide great place for web developers to work together to improve and sometimes even create new forms of interoperability on the Web. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ From paul.m.wilkins at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:45:51 2008 From: paul.m.wilkins at gmail.com (Paul Wilkins) Date: Sat Mar 8 14:45:53 2008 Subject: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett In-Reply-To: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> References: <47D30910.8020908@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: On 3/9/08, Manu Sporny wrote: > I just got back from vacation, otherwise this would have gone out > soo