From charlvn at charlvn.za.net Tue Feb 3 16:59:42 2009 From: charlvn at charlvn.za.net (Charl van Niekerk) Date: Tue Feb 3 18:59:45 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hCode Message-ID: Hi All, I am currently using my blog largely as a paste bin and would really like to add some more semantics to the various pieces of code I post so that I can write scripts to index my code snippets and allow users to search/browse through them more effectively. I searched the mailing list archives and found a lot of posts about hCode in January 2007. I also found some brainstorming being done on the wiki [1] but there doesn't seem to be much progress on this over the last year. I would like to take this up and start contributing if possible. Is there anybody else that is still busy working on this that I can collaborate with? [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/code-brainstorming Thanks & Best Regards, Charl From andr3.pt at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 21:50:54 2009 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Wed Feb 4 21:50:58 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Is there a script to convert xfolk -> bookmarks.html ? Message-ID: Does anyone if anyone's written a script to grab content marked up with xfolk and convert it to Firefox bookmarks.html file? Thanks in advance, -- Andr? Lu?s From rglepper at mpib.es Thu Feb 5 23:57:14 2009 From: rglepper at mpib.es (Rafael Garc=?ISO-8859-1?B?7Q==?=a Lepper) Date: Thu Feb 5 23:57:19 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hatom (hcard) pictures author Message-ID: Hello, I'm using hatom to markup articles which have text and pictures with different authors (hcard), but I haven't found how to indicate that one of them is for pictures. Is there a way to do this? Thanks Regards Rafa From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 00:04:28 2009 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Feb 6 00:04:32 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hatom (hcard) pictures author In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e770780902060004l59c9990k6e66e85e9826565d@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Rafael Garc?a Lepper wrote: > I'm using hatom to markup articles which have text and pictures with > different authors (hcard), but I haven't found how to indicate that one of > them is for pictures. Is there a way to do this? --- do you have a link to an example? Then we can better help to make recommendations. Thanks, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From rglepper at mpib.es Fri Feb 6 01:32:49 2009 From: rglepper at mpib.es (Rafael Garc=?ISO-8859-1?B?7Q==?=a Lepper) Date: Fri Feb 6 01:32:57 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hatom (hcard) pictures author In-Reply-To: <21e770780902060004l59c9990k6e66e85e9826565d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes: http://origin-www.motociclismo.es/Pruebas/honda-fury-honda-america-chopper-n ovedad-2009-kw-contacto.jsp%3Fid%3D6616 I apologize for we are using the old CMS were right now there's no option for various authors. We are working on it, and that's why I asked this. The website is in Spanish, hope that's not big deal Thank you very much Regards Rafa Ps. I'd appreciate comments about the microformats and posh implementation I've done, if you see anything wrong please tell me. There are hatom hreview hcalendar hcard microformats. Brian Suda escribi?: > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Rafael Garc?a Lepper wrote: >> I'm using hatom to markup articles which have text and pictures with >> different authors (hcard), but I haven't found how to indicate that one of >> them is for pictures. Is there a way to do this? > > --- do you have a link to an example? Then we can better help to make > recommendations. > > Thanks, > -brian > From rob at sanchothefat.com Fri Feb 6 03:04:31 2009 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke) Date: Fri Feb 6 04:31:46 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] value-title design pattern Message-ID: <498C193F.9030306@sanchothefat.com> Hello everyone, I was following some discussion on Andy Clarke's blog a while ago and it led me to Ben's work on the value-title design pattern. Awesome work Ben :) In the interests of doing something pragmatic (but probably not that useful in hindsight) I made a jquery plugin to stop the tooltips appearing when you hover over any .dtstart, .dtend or .bday ABBR elements which as far as I could gather was the reason the BBC stopped using hCalendar. Anyway there was a bit of discussion on strackoverflow and a clever chap called Cristoph suggested using the VAR tag. I'm not entirely clear whether it's semantically valid to use to store a datetime in the title attribute but the spec states it's 'an instance of a variable'. Is that geared towards marking up code rather than an arbritrary variable? The thread on stackoverflow is here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/457366/disabling-browser-tooltips-on-links-and-abbrs Cristoph's suggestion is at the bottom. I thought it might be worth mentioning at any rate, even if the answer's no. -Rob From glenn.jones at madgex.com Fri Feb 6 04:15:52 2009 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Fri Feb 6 04:36:14 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Is there a script to convert xfolk -> bookmarks.html ? Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02DAC845@MOBY.Clarence.local> Andr? Lu?s wrote: > Does anyone if anyone's written a script to grab content marked up with xfolk > and convert it to Firefox bookmarks.html file? Hi I spent a little time this morning putting together a simple API. It takes a URL of a page with xFolk and returns a bookmarks.html document which can be imported into Firefox and IE. It's a simple conversion, so I have also added JSON and XML output of the full xFolk structure if you want to do other things with it. Hope it's what you where looking for Glenn Jones From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Feb 6 05:09:46 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Feb 6 05:16:45 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Is there a script to convert xfolk -> bookmarks.html ? In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02DAC845@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02DAC845@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <21e523c20902060509q6dafededu43799c02eaf3334e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Glenn Jones wrote: > > Andr? Lu?s wrote: > > Does anyone if anyone's written a script to grab content marked up with xfolk > > and convert it to Firefox bookmarks.html file? > > Hi > > I spent a little time this morning putting together a simple API. It takes a URL of a page with xFolk and returns a bookmarks.html document which can be imported into Firefox and IE. It's a simple conversion, so I have also added JSON and XML output of the full xFolk structure if you want to do other things with it. > > Hope it's what you where looking for > > Glenn Jones > Isn't bookmarks.html obsolete now? http://kb.mozillazine.org/Bookmarks.html -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 05:53:49 2009 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Fri Feb 6 05:53:54 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Is there a script to convert xfolk -> bookmarks.html ? In-Reply-To: <21e523c20902060509q6dafededu43799c02eaf3334e@mail.gmail.com> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02DAC845@MOBY.Clarence.local> <21e523c20902060509q6dafededu43799c02eaf3334e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's obsolete for internal storing, not allowing users to import bookmarks. Thanks again, Glenn!! One tiny thing, though... Any chance to make it use the "title" of the .taggedlink instead of the url itself? :) -- Andr? Lu?s On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 1:09 PM, David Janes wrote: > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Glenn Jones wrote: >> >> Andr? Lu?s wrote: >> > Does anyone if anyone's written a script to grab content marked up with xfolk >> > and convert it to Firefox bookmarks.html file? >> >> Hi >> >> I spent a little time this morning putting together a simple API. It takes a URL of a page with xFolk and returns a bookmarks.html document which can be imported into Firefox and IE. It's a simple conversion, so I have also added JSON and XML output of the full xFolk structure if you want to do other things with it. >> >> Hope it's what you where looking for >> >> Glenn Jones >> > > Isn't bookmarks.html obsolete now? > http://kb.mozillazine.org/Bookmarks.html > > > -- > David Janes > Mercenary Programmer > http://code.davidjanes.com > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From glenn.jones at madgex.com Fri Feb 6 05:39:21 2009 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Fri Feb 6 05:59:48 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Is there a script to convert xfolk ->bookmarks.html ? Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02DAC8BD@MOBY.Clarence.local> It helps if you give people the URL! http://lab.madgex.com/ufXtract/bookmarks.aspx > I spent a little time this morning putting together a simple API. > It takes a URL of a page with xFolk and returns a bookmarks.html > document which can be imported into Firefox and IE. It's a simple > conversion, so I have also added JSON and XML output of the full > xFolk structure if you want to do other things with it. > Hope it's what you where looking for Glenn Jones From andreluis.pt at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 10:49:23 2009 From: andreluis.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Fri Feb 6 10:49:47 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: Is there a script to convert xfolk -> bookmarks.html ? In-Reply-To: References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02DAC845@MOBY.Clarence.local> <21e523c20902060509q6dafededu43799c02eaf3334e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Andr? Lu?s wrote: > > One tiny thing, though... Any chance to make it use the "title" of the > .taggedlink instead of the url itself? :) Please disregard this comment. I was messing up my own markup... thought I was printing the title but I wasn't. All fine! Thanks, Andr? Lu?s From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Feb 6 11:53:11 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Feb 6 11:53:17 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hatom (hcard) pictures author Message-ID: Rafael Garc ? a Lepper wrote: > I'm using hatom to markup articles which have text and pictures with > different authors (hcard), but I haven't found how to indicate that > one of > them is for pictures. Is there a way to do this? Three possibilities for you to consider: 1. Mark up the author of the text using hAtom and the pictures using figure . You should beware that figure is still a draft and might change in the future. 2. Use the hCard "role" property to indicate which person did which. 3. Consider RDFa - in RDFa when you say that someone is an author of something, you also say what they authored. A basic example would be something like this:

Blah, blah, blah.

...

Blah, blah, blah.

Alice Bob
-- Toby A Inkster From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Fri Feb 6 12:14:56 2009 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Fri Feb 6 12:15:03 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] value-title design pattern In-Reply-To: <498C193F.9030306@sanchothefat.com> References: <498C193F.9030306@sanchothefat.com> Message-ID: <7A072DC9-545B-4563-BE63-F519C06E36E0@ben-ward.co.uk> Hi Robert, Thanks for your feedback on the value-title work. It's moving along quite nicely. On 6 Feb 2009, at 03:04, Robert O'Rourke wrote: > Anyway there was a bit of discussion on strackoverflow and a clever > chap called Cristoph suggested using the VAR tag. I'm not entirely > clear whether it's semantically valid to use to store a datetime in > the title attribute but the spec states it's 'an instance of a > variable'. Is that geared towards marking up code rather than an > arbritrary variable? > > The thread on stackoverflow is here: > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/457366/disabling-browser-tooltips-on-links-and-abbrs > > Cristoph's suggestion is at the bottom. Your guess is correct: is for marking up code, not embedding data; here's a lot of computer science bias in HTML4. One of the key design goals I have with the new pattern is enabling choice. Whilst the semantic validity of ABBR use is oft debated, and the accessibility issues are proven, there's always been a problem and discomfort from forcing use of a particular element onto authors. The new pattern is, as mentioned on the test page, mark-up agnostic (you can use span, or b, or input, or var, or whatever you like). As such, you can publish something like Cristoph's pattern if you want to. You would do this, just adding the existing value-excerption pattern ?value? class to the .

The party is at 10 o'clock on the 10th 20051010T10:10:10-010.

Personally, I don't agree with the uses of those elements here. I should have a followup on the value-excerption work next week, along with a draft spec. Ben From rob at sanchothefat.com Mon Feb 9 01:56:27 2009 From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke) Date: Mon Feb 9 01:58:51 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] value-title design pattern In-Reply-To: <7A072DC9-545B-4563-BE63-F519C06E36E0@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <498C193F.9030306@sanchothefat.com> <7A072DC9-545B-4563-BE63-F519C06E36E0@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <498FFDCB.4090809@sanchothefat.com> Ben Ward wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thanks for your feedback on the value-title work. It's moving along > quite nicely. > > On 6 Feb 2009, at 03:04, Robert O'Rourke wrote: > >> Anyway there was a bit of discussion on strackoverflow and a clever >> chap called Cristoph suggested using the VAR tag. I'm not entirely >> clear whether it's semantically valid to use to store a datetime in >> the title attribute but the spec states it's 'an instance of a >> variable'. Is that geared towards marking up code rather than an >> arbritrary variable? >> >> The thread on stackoverflow is here: >> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/457366/disabling-browser-tooltips-on-links-and-abbrs >> >> >> Cristoph's suggestion is at the bottom. > > Your guess is correct: is for marking up code, not embedding > data; here's a lot of computer science bias in HTML4. > > One of the key design goals I have with the new pattern is enabling > choice. Whilst the semantic validity of ABBR use is oft debated, and > the accessibility issues are proven, there's always been a problem and > discomfort from forcing use of a particular element onto authors. The > new pattern is, as mentioned on the test page, mark-up agnostic (you > can use span, or b, or input, or var, or whatever you like). > > As such, you can publish something like Cristoph's pattern if you want > to. > > You would do this, just adding the existing value-excerption pattern > ?value? class to the . >

> The party is at > 10 o'clock on the 10th > 20051010T10:10:10-010. >

> Personally, I don't agree with the uses of those elements here. > > I should have a followup on the value-excerption work next week, along > with a draft spec. > > Ben Thanks for taking the time to respond Ben, I know you must be very busy. I agree didn't feel quite right but I thought I'd post it. The mark-up agnostic approach is a great idea though. Looking forward to reading the spec, thanks again Ben. Rob From rglepper at mpib.es Mon Feb 9 02:24:08 2009 From: rglepper at mpib.es (Rafael Garc=?ISO-8859-1?B?7Q==?=a Lepper) Date: Mon Feb 9 02:24:14 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hatom (hcard) pictures author In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Toby A Inkster wrote: > Three possibilities for you to consider: > > 1. Mark up the author of the text using hAtom and the pictures using > figure . You should beware that > figure is still a draft and might change in the future. > > 2. Use the hCard "role" property to indicate which person did which. > > 3. Consider RDFa - in RDFa when you say that someone is an author of > something, you also say what they authored. A basic example would be > something like this: > >
>

Blah, blah, blah.

> ... >

Blah, blah, blah.

> Alice > Bob >
Hello, thanks for your answer. Some points about the possibilities you propose: For the first option, what I'd need is to indicate that all images in current entry where done by someone different from the writer, so figure draft microformat doesn't fit in the intention, but I may use it for every single picture within a review or a news. The second option, role property is not very well documented in the hcard wiki page, but seems to be to specify the business category of a person, not to indicate this person is author for the pictures in current entry. It might work for this one though, I'll read more about it, I'd appreciate any links to information about this property and it's usages (different from what google returns). Third option is actually something I've being considering, but I haven't yet figured out how to implement RDFa. RDFa Primer is very clear about it's possibilities but it's syntax and usage are quite messy for me, like almost every w3c document. I'll keep trying though. Regards Rafa From martin at weborganics.co.uk Mon Feb 9 04:05:05 2009 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Mon Feb 9 04:05:15 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hatom (hcard) pictures author In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49901BF1.6090000@weborganics.co.uk> Hello Raphael I think you should take a look a hMedia[1] which seems to suit your purpose there is an example of how to mark up images with hMedia [2] Best wishes Martin [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hmedia [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hmedia#Images Raphael Garc?a Lepper wrote: > Toby A Inkster wrote: > > >> Three possibilities for you to consider: >> >> 1. Mark up the author of the text using hAtom and the pictures using >> figure . You should beware that >> figure is still a draft and might change in the future. >> >> 2. Use the hCard "role" property to indicate which person did which. >> >> 3. Consider RDFa - in RDFa when you say that someone is an author of >> something, you also say what they authored. A basic example would be >> something like this: >> >>
>>

Blah, blah, blah.

>> ... >>

Blah, blah, blah.

>> Alice >> Bob >>
>> > > Hello, thanks for your answer. Some points about the possibilities you > propose: > > For the first option, what I'd need is to indicate that all images in > current entry where done by someone different from the writer, so figure > draft microformat doesn't fit in the intention, but I may use it for every > single picture within a review or a news. > > The second option, role property is not very well documented in the hcard > wiki page, but seems to be to specify the business category of a person, not > to indicate this person is author for the pictures in current entry. It > might work for this one though, I'll read more about it, I'd appreciate any > links to information about this property and it's usages (different from > what google returns). > > Third option is actually something I've being considering, but I haven't yet > figured out how to implement RDFa. RDFa Primer is very clear about it's > possibilities but it's syntax and usage are quite messy for me, like almost > every w3c document. I'll keep trying though. > > Regards > > Rafa > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ "You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive." Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia From Jay.Myers at bestbuy.com Tue Feb 10 07:05:18 2009 From: Jay.Myers at bestbuy.com (Myers, Jay) Date: Tue Feb 10 07:05:25 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Additional hProduct research and analysis posted to wiki Message-ID: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E06598814@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> All, The hProduct examples page [1] has been updated to give further context to the vocabulary terms of the draft. The changes include examples from 100 commerce and manufacturing sites plus a breakdown of the most common product attributes found in the research, including sites outside of the narrow scope of North America. I encourage any feedback or discussion on this research and on the format itself [2]; there has been some momentum on hProduct by a handful of individuals over the past months, and I'd love to see that spread to the rest of the microformat community. Additionally, if anyone has suggestions on commerce/product sites outside of North America, Europe or Australia that could provide additional insight to this research, I'd be happy to add those to this list. Thanks, Jay [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-examples#Live_Product_Examples [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct Jay Myers (twitter) @jaymyers (skype) jaymmyers http://jay.beweep.com From loertsch.thomas at guj.de Wed Feb 11 06:33:30 2009 From: loertsch.thomas at guj.de (Thomas Loertsch) Date: Wed Feb 11 06:33:44 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] *new* - hRecipe draft version 0.2 - *exciting* Message-ID: hi, a new draft of hRecipe is online - version 0.2 enjoy, thomas . Thomas L?rtsch Business Development G+J Exclusive&Living digital GmbH Redaktion Online .. Stubbenhuk 5 20459 Hamburg ... eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de From glenn.jones at madgex.com Wed Feb 11 07:56:29 2009 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Wed Feb 11 07:54:57 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Twitter implementation issues Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09A36@MOBY.Clarence.local> The guys at Twitter have done a great job of adding microformats to their site. Like everyone else in the developer world I love building twitter mash-ups, (the new hello world) but I like to use microformats as my API. Unfortunately there are one or two small issue with the Twitter implementation. So I have fired off a email to their support, but have no heard back yet. I thought I may be able to reach them through the list. May be you work for Twitter and known the right person to forward this to. Below I documented some problems and made some suggestions on how they could be easily fixed. They are just suggestions. I already have a couple of Twitter integrations demo's for this year's SXSWi Microformats panel, I would love to increase what I could show. Thanks Glenn Jones Implementation issues: On the status pages ie http://twitter.com/glennjones. There are a couple of things that are stopping the status hEntry on twitter from parsing correctly. Also there are a number issues with the hCard which represents the user on the page. A) The first is that the status text is wrapped in "entry-content" class, but there is no "entry-title". Unfortunately the "entry-title" is mandatory where "entry-content" is not. This is why the Firefox plug-in Operator is saying that entries mark-up is invalid. Incorrect: Weekend procrastination starts here. So you could change the element holding the text to have a class of Weekend procrastination starts here. Or use both classes on the element Weekend procrastination starts here. B) Secondly the "updated" property is required where as "published" is not, for completeness I would suggest using both. Most if not all Microformats parsers will only take the ISO date information from a title attribute of an abbr tag. So if you recode the element as follows we should be able to parse the date correctly. Incorrect: 17 minutes ago to 17 minutes ago C) The first is that a number of html elements contain in the hCard use the class "label" for styling which is used in the hCard schema so the parsers pick up the wrong information. These class names should be changed. D) On the individuals status page i.e. http://twitter.com/glennjones By adding the class "note" the bio will be added to the parsed information. Current: Web designer and developer to suggestion Web designer and developer There are a couple really useful bits of information that could be part of the hCard which are on another part of the page ie photo and username. Microformats provide a include pattern to deal with this issue. It uses an object to point to a fragment of html on the page which should be also included.
  • Name Glenn Jones
  • Location < span class="label">Brighton
  • Web http://www.glennj...
  • Bio Web designer and developer
.... elsewhere on the page

glennjones

I added the "photo" class to the img of the user and put a new span around the username and marked it up with the "nickname" class. The object needs to styled with displa:none to deal with a Safari rendering issue. The "adr" is not working in the current mark-up. As the address details are not structured I would suggest using the label class instead . The "label" class is a formatted version of a postal address (a string with embedded line breaks, punctuation, etc.). So combination like Brighton, UK or Austin, TX can be placed in the label property. E) It may be worth considering adding hEntries to the statuses listed by the search. http://search.twitter.com/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Feb 11 08:03:00 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Feb 11 08:03:04 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Twitter implementation issues In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09A36@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09A36@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: <21e523c20902110803j235630fdnab04a4134ee993ee@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Glenn Jones wrote: > The guys at Twitter have done a great job of adding microformats to > their site. Like everyone else in the developer world I love building > twitter mash-ups, (the new hello world) but I like to use microformats > as my API. Unfortunately there are one or two small issue with the > Twitter implementation. So I have fired off a email to their support, > but have no heard back yet. I thought I may be able to reach them > through the list. May be you work for Twitter and known the right person > to forward this to. > > Below I documented some problems and made some suggestions on how they > could be easily fixed. They are just suggestions. > > I already have a couple of Twitter integrations demo's for this year's > SXSWi Microformats panel, I would love to increase what I could show. > > Thanks > > Glenn Jones > > > > Implementation issues: > > On the status pages ie http://twitter.com/glennjones. There are a couple > of things that are stopping the status hEntry on twitter from parsing > correctly. Also there are a number issues with the hCard which > represents the user on the page. > > > A) > The first is that the status text is wrapped in "entry-content" class, > but there is no "entry-title". Unfortunately the "entry-title" is > mandatory where "entry-content" is not. This is why the Firefox plug-in > Operator is saying that entries mark-up is invalid. > > Incorrect: > Weekend procrastination starts > here. > > So you could change the element holding the text to have a class of > Weekend procrastination starts > here. > > Or use both classes on the element > Weekend procrastination > starts here. > > > > > B) > Secondly the "updated" property is required where as "published" is not, > for completeness I would suggest using both. Most if not all > Microformats parsers will only take the ISO date information from a > title attribute of an abbr tag. So if you recode the element as follows > we should be able to parse the date correctly. > > Incorrect: > 17 > minutes ago > > to > title="2009-01-31T13:55:33+00:00">17 minutes ago > Excellent suggestions. However, for point (B) this is not necessary as if published is present and updated is not, updated is assumed to be the same as published [1] Regards, etc... [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Updated -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From csarven at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 08:30:47 2009 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Wed Feb 11 08:30:54 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Twitter implementation issues In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09A36@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09A36@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Glenn Jones wrote: > The guys at Twitter have done a great job of adding microformats to > their site. Like everyone else in the developer world I love building > twitter mash-ups, (the new hello world) but I like to use microformats > as my API. Unfortunately there are one or two small issue with the > Twitter implementation. So I have fired off a email to their support, > but have no heard back yet. I thought I may be able to reach them > through the list. May be you work for Twitter and known the right person > to forward this to. > > Below I documented some problems and made some suggestions on how they > could be easily fixed. They are just suggestions. Hi Glenn, I work on http://identi.ca the http://laconi.ca microblogging software, available under the GNU Affero General Public Licence and we're all ears for improving in any way we can. You can talk to us either on this list or at http://mail.laconi.ca/mailman/listinfo/laconica-dev > I already have a couple of Twitter integrations demo's for this year's > SXSWi Microformats panel, I would love to increase what I could show. Perhaps you can use http://identi.ca as your demo case as we already have the things you'd like to see. Is there anything we can do to help you out? Currently, we support the following: * hCard * XFN * hAtom * bunch of rels (tag, license, group, member, prev, next, in-reply-to, home...) e.g., http://identi.ca/csarven I'll take this as an opportunity to ask the microformats community for their comments and suggestions to make http://identi.ca more "microformats friendly". Thanks, -Sarven From csarven at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 10:31:19 2009 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Wed Feb 11 10:31:22 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Open microblogging and microformats Message-ID: Hi all, A small promotion for open microblogging and microformats here: If you haven't come across http://identi.ca I'd like the take this opportunity to mention a few things that this community might be interested in. Identica uses the http://laconi.ca microblogging software, available under the GNU Affero General Public Licence. You can help improve the code. Our development repository is hosted on gitorious: http://gitorious.org/projects/laconica . See also http://identi.ca/doc/faq Currently, laconica supports the following: * hCard * XFN * hAtom * bunch of rels (tag, license, group, member, prev, next, in-reply-to, home...) e.g., http://identi.ca/csarven There are semweb groups you might be interested in joining: http://identi.ca/group/microformats http://identi.ca/group/semweb http://identi.ca/group/rdfa http://identi.ca/group/foaf If you'd like to chime in with your comments or suggestions, there are a lot of ears. You can reach the laconica community by: * IRC ( irc://irc.freenode.net/%23laconica ) * Mailing list ( http://mail.laconi.ca/mailman/listinfo/laconica-dev ) * Groups ( http://identi.ca/group/laconica or others like !identica ) Looking forward to the awesome tools you guys are going to come up with. -Sarven From glenn.jones at madgex.com Thu Feb 12 04:35:22 2009 From: glenn.jones at madgex.com (Glenn Jones) Date: Thu Feb 12 04:33:53 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Open microblogging and microformats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09CCE@MOBY.Clarence.local> Hi Sarven I have taken some time to go through http://identi.ca and have to say that it has one of the best implementations of microformats in a social media site. Although many social media sites now add microformats, they all tend to have a few problems or miss out bits of semantic content that could be marked up. Their formal API's often contain data structures, that have just not been mark-uped with microformats in the HTML. The microformats coverage in identi.ca is so complete I would say you have achieved a full read-only API that is embedded into your pages. If you added OAuth support for secured web pages, I could build applications against your site without asking for passwords or needing a separate API. That would be an great example of the power microformats ! Glenn From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 12 10:24:38 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 12 10:24:41 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hProduct draft now available In-Reply-To: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E06598712@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> References: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E06598712@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20902121024t29d4bf2eyb0399af69792d734@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Myers, Jay wrote: > > Microformateers, > > After several months of diligent work, I'm happy to announce the draft > spec of the hProduct microformat, linked from the front page of the > wiki. I look forward to your constructive feedback in order to better > the format for eventual adoption. As per the process, we have included > appropriate wiki pages for issues, faqs and examples. Please feel free > to use those pages to document any feedback, or pose queries on the > uf-discuss mailing list. Is there a way to identify what the product is ... a "book", a "dvd" Regards, etc... -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From Jay.Myers at bestbuy.com Thu Feb 12 12:53:10 2009 From: Jay.Myers at bestbuy.com (Myers, Jay) Date: Thu Feb 12 12:53:29 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hProduct draft now available In-Reply-To: <21e523c20902121024t29d4bf2eyb0399af69792d734@mail.gmail.com> References: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E06598712@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> <21e523c20902121024t29d4bf2eyb0399af69792d734@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E0659882B@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> Yes -- the "category" attribute was included to define product types. In most examples listed on the hproduct-examples page [1], these would appear in the "breadcrumbs", similar to this example snippet: [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-examples Thanks, Jay Jay Myers http://jay.beweep.com (twitter) @jaymyers (skype) jaymmyers -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of David Janes Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:25 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hProduct draft now available On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Myers, Jay wrote: > > Microformateers, > > After several months of diligent work, I'm happy to announce the draft > spec of the hProduct microformat, linked from the front page of the > wiki. I look forward to your constructive feedback in order to better > the format for eventual adoption. As per the process, we have included > appropriate wiki pages for issues, faqs and examples. Please feel free > to use those pages to document any feedback, or pose queries on the > uf-discuss mailing list. Is there a way to identify what the product is ... a "book", a "dvd" Regards, etc... -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From csarven at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 16:50:30 2009 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Thu Feb 12 16:50:33 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Open microblogging and microformats In-Reply-To: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09CCE@MOBY.Clarence.local> References: <36A319113CF910438942741C4727ADFF02E09CCE@MOBY.Clarence.local> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Glenn Jones wrote: > I have taken some time to go through http://identi.ca and have to say > that it has one of the best implementations of microformats in a social > media site. Although many social media sites now add microformats, they > all tend to have a few problems or miss out bits of semantic content > that could be marked up. Their formal API's often contain data > structures, that have just not been mark-uped with microformats in the > HTML. > > The microformats coverage in identi.ca is so complete I would say you > have achieved a full read-only API that is embedded into your pages. If > you added OAuth support for secured web pages, I could build > applications against your site without asking for passwords or needing a > separate API. > > That would be an great example of the power microformats ! That's really great to hear, thank you! We are working on OAuth right now and we'll have something ready for the next laconica release. All but email is already visible on the site, so you can read them without the need of OAuth. Write with OAuth will follow soon. If you have any specific questions, you can join us in #laconica (Zach Copley can answer OAuth questions better than I can) on IRC freenode or look into http://laconi.ca I hope this helps. -Sarven From jason.karns at gmail.com Fri Feb 13 05:33:52 2009 From: jason.karns at gmail.com (Jason Karns) Date: Fri Feb 13 05:33:55 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hProduct draft now available In-Reply-To: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E0659882B@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> References: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E06598712@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> <21e523c20902121024t29d4bf2eyb0399af69792d734@mail.gmail.com> <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E0659882B@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com> Message-ID: <1005d65f0902130533v7e51644ev2b7d095e354fcd93@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Myers, Jay wrote: > > Yes -- the "category" attribute was included to define product types. In > most examples listed on the hproduct-examples page [1], these would > appear in the "breadcrumbs", similar to this example snippet: > > Not to be too pedantic, but I would recommend using an ordered list rather than an unordered list because a list of 'breadcrumb' links doesn't make sense if they are out of order. I realize this was just a snippet, but - if used as a guide - should be as correct as possible. ~Jason From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Feb 13 14:33:20 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Feb 13 14:33:34 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Open microblogging and microformats Message-ID: <8757DE1E-0845-42B5-8519-54CA99D266CB@tobyinkster.co.uk> Another good microformatty thing to do would be a profile import as part of the signup. As the first step, ask them for a pre-existing profile URL (e.g. their profile on Twitter, or their own website), then parse that looking for hCard and XFN (and for bonus points also look for FOAF, RDFa, etc). That way, you should be able to pre-fill many of the sign-up fields, and easily find their existing contacts who are already registered on identica. For people who are already signed up, you could offer a tool to import an XFN list (again, bonus points for FOAF and RDFa). -- Toby A Inkster From brian.suda at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 08:17:36 2009 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Sun Feb 15 08:17:52 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-Canonical Message-ID: <21e770780902150817s6d12ed0cvc50dfd38a32870ff@mail.gmail.com> Google has started to use rel-canonical to specific the best URL for page information. This does not work across domain, so it isn't useful for saying that hCard over their on my own site a better version than this one on this site. http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/02/specify-your-canonical.html I had a look on the wiki, and there was some discussions of canonical, but no rel-canonical. http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=canonical&go=Go This is worth documenting as google develop and use this more. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sun Feb 15 08:27:37 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sun Feb 15 08:27:46 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-Canonical Message-ID: <36AFD8CE-44A0-4A8E-B36B-839DD4FCC105@tobyinkster.co.uk> Brian Suda wrote: > Google has started to use rel-canonical to specific the best URL for > page information. It is a shame they don't seem to have openly discussed this idea before implementing it. If they had, people may have pointed out that it more or less duplicates the semantics of the existing Content- Location header from HTTP 1.1. Content-Location is already a fairly commonly used header, and although HTTP headers can sometimes require a bit of voodoo to configure, is available as a substitute. -- Toby A Inkster From gornbo at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 03:47:47 2009 From: gornbo at gmail.com (George Ornbo) Date: Mon Feb 16 03:53:44 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using YQL with Microformats Message-ID: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> Hi all I'd like to share an example I knocked up showing how YQL can be used to populate forms using just a URL. YQL returns JSON from Microformats and jQuery handles it to put the correct data into the form. No database, just semantic web goodness. Demo here: http://tr.im/hcardme Blog post here: http://tr.im/yqlmf Cheers George -- George Ornbo twitter: http://twitter.com/shapeshed work: http://shapeshed.com From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Mon Feb 16 04:15:24 2009 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Mon Feb 16 04:15:28 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using YQL with Microformats In-Reply-To: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> References: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: George Looks good! You might want to handle URLs with the http:// omitted. -Ciaran McNulty On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, George Ornbo wrote: > Hi all > > I'd like to share an example I knocked up showing how YQL can be used > to populate forms using just a URL. > > YQL returns JSON from Microformats and jQuery handles it to put the > correct data into the form. No database, just semantic web goodness. > > Demo here: http://tr.im/hcardme > Blog post here: http://tr.im/yqlmf > > Cheers > George > > -- > George Ornbo > > twitter: http://twitter.com/shapeshed > work: http://shapeshed.com > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From gordon at onlinehome.de Mon Feb 16 06:00:22 2009 From: gordon at onlinehome.de (Gordon Oheim) Date: Mon Feb 16 06:00:29 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using YQL with Microformats In-Reply-To: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> References: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49997176.6090407@onlinehome.de> Hi George, looks good, but I was unable to load pages over https and I couldn't get it to work with pages that contain multiple hCards. YQL is something I need to implement into the hCardMapper when I can find the time. Regards, Gordon George Ornbo schrieb: > Hi all > > I'd like to share an example I knocked up showing how YQL can be used > to populate forms using just a URL. > > YQL returns JSON from Microformats and jQuery handles it to put the > correct data into the form. No database, just semantic web goodness. > > Demo here: http://tr.im/hcardme > Blog post here: http://tr.im/yqlmf > > Cheers > George > > From andr3.pt at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 06:15:55 2009 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Mon Feb 16 06:38:54 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using YQL with Microformats In-Reply-To: <49997176.6090407@onlinehome.de> References: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> <49997176.6090407@onlinehome.de> Message-ID: I was gonna point out the same thing... it can't handle multiple hcards, yet. :) You might want to enhance the logic that's dealing with the results of the YQL query to include this steps: 1- if there's ONE hcard, use it. 2- if there's more than one: 2.1 Is there any representative hcard? http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard - if there's ONE, use it. - "there can/should be only one", but.... if there's more, show their names and ask the user to point out his/hers. 2.2 If there isn't any representative hcard, show their names and ask the user to point out his/hers. Don't get me wrong, this is *very* cool. Specially since it delegates to Yahoo! the weight of parsing the pages. I've been using Dmitry's Optimus on my own server, but I might change my approach to use YQL very soon. ;) Good job George. Cheers, -- Andr? Lu?s On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Gordon Oheim wrote: > Hi George, > > looks good, but I was unable to load pages over https and I couldn't get it > to work with pages that contain multiple hCards. > YQL is something I need to implement into the hCardMapper when I can find > the time. > > Regards, Gordon > > George Ornbo schrieb: >> >> Hi all >> >> I'd like to share an example I knocked up showing how YQL can be used >> to populate forms using just a URL. >> >> YQL returns JSON from Microformats and jQuery handles it to put the >> correct data into the form. No database, just semantic web goodness. >> >> Demo here: http://tr.im/hcardme >> Blog post here: http://tr.im/yqlmf >> >> Cheers >> George >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From burcu at keyprints.org Mon Feb 16 06:49:39 2009 From: burcu at keyprints.org (Burcu Dogan) Date: Mon Feb 16 06:49:44 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using YQL with Microformats In-Reply-To: References: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> <49997176.6090407@onlinehome.de> Message-ID: <64e0f12c0902160649t18a2f792w3bea24afc09a9f06@mail.gmail.com> I think if there is no representative hCard at all and there are more than one hCard, the card with most attributes can be counted as the main identity. But what if there is an equality? Regards, Burcu Dogan On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Andr? Lu?s wrote: > I was gonna point out the same thing... it can't handle multiple hcards, yet. :) > > You might want to enhance the logic that's dealing with the results of > the YQL query to include this steps: > > 1- if there's ONE hcard, use it. > 2- if there's more than one: > 2.1 Is there any representative hcard? > http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard > - if there's ONE, use it. > - "there can/should be only one", but.... if there's more, > show their names and ask the user to point out his/hers. > 2.2 If there isn't any representative hcard, show their names and > ask the user to point out his/hers. > > Don't get me wrong, this is *very* cool. Specially since it delegates > to Yahoo! the weight of parsing the pages. I've been using Dmitry's > Optimus on my own server, but I might change my approach to use YQL > very soon. ;) > > Good job George. > > Cheers, > -- > Andr? Lu?s > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Gordon Oheim wrote: >> Hi George, >> >> looks good, but I was unable to load pages over https and I couldn't get it >> to work with pages that contain multiple hCards. >> YQL is something I need to implement into the hCardMapper when I can find >> the time. >> >> Regards, Gordon >> >> George Ornbo schrieb: >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I'd like to share an example I knocked up showing how YQL can be used >>> to populate forms using just a URL. >>> >>> YQL returns JSON from Microformats and jQuery handles it to put the >>> correct data into the form. No database, just semantic web goodness. >>> >>> Demo here: http://tr.im/hcardme >>> Blog post here: http://tr.im/yqlmf >>> >>> Cheers >>> George >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From danbri at danbri.org Mon Feb 16 07:32:37 2009 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Feb 16 07:32:45 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using YQL with Microformats In-Reply-To: <64e0f12c0902160649t18a2f792w3bea24afc09a9f06@mail.gmail.com> References: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> <49997176.6090407@onlinehome.de> <64e0f12c0902160649t18a2f792w3bea24afc09a9f06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49998715.8030204@danbri.org> On 16/2/09 15:49, Burcu Dogan wrote: > I think if there is no representative hCard at all and there are more than > one hCard, the card with most attributes can be counted as the main > identity. But what if there is an equality? Doesn't this penalise modest and private people? Seems also a route for obscure bugs to creep in: if a friend's entry fills out more than the page's owner, application behaviour could suddenly change in a rather odd way. cheers, Dan -- http://danbri.org From burcu at keyprints.org Mon Feb 16 08:03:41 2009 From: burcu at keyprints.org (Burcu Dogan) Date: Mon Feb 16 08:03:45 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Using YQL with Microformats In-Reply-To: <49998715.8030204@danbri.org> References: <34569220902160347o7b2507abh9cbf29d7cc45394@mail.gmail.com> <49997176.6090407@onlinehome.de> <64e0f12c0902160649t18a2f792w3bea24afc09a9f06@mail.gmail.com> <49998715.8030204@danbri.org> Message-ID: <64e0f12c0902160803s54ef57f0kf131e3c6f70abc82@mail.gmail.com> Right. Truthfully speaking it was not a perfectionist's idea. Generally, friends are mostly identified with a tuple. So it is more common that the main profile holds the largest set of attributes. Of course it's impossible to generalize this usage. I would definitely look for a rel=me on url first. Regards, Burcu Dogan On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Dan Brickley wrote: > On 16/2/09 15:49, Burcu Dogan wrote: >> >> I think if there is no representative hCard at all and there are more than >> one hCard, the card with most attributes can be counted as the main >> identity. But what if there is an equality? > > Doesn't this penalise modest and private people? Seems also a route for > obscure bugs to creep in: if a friend's entry fills out more than the page's > owner, application behaviour could suddenly change in a rather odd way. > > cheers, > > Dan > > > -- > http://danbri.org > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From csarven at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 13:51:41 2009 From: csarven at gmail.com (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Mon Feb 16 13:51:47 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Open microblogging and microformats In-Reply-To: <8757DE1E-0845-42B5-8519-54CA99D266CB@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <8757DE1E-0845-42B5-8519-54CA99D266CB@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <1234821101.6034.23.camel@csarven-laptop> On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 22:33 +0000, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Another good microformatty thing to do would be a profile import as > part of the signup. As the first step, ask them for a pre-existing > profile URL (e.g. their profile on Twitter, or their own website), > then parse that looking for hCard and XFN (and for bonus points also > look for FOAF, RDFa, etc). That way, you should be able to pre-fill > many of the sign-up fields, and easily find their existing contacts > who are already registered on identica. > > For people who are already signed up, you could offer a tool to > import an XFN list (again, bonus points for FOAF and RDFa). Profile import using hCard is in my todo. Bringing XFN and FOAF into the picture for importing contacts sounds like an awesome idea! I'll create a ticket for this, thanks. -Sarven From mail at ciaranmcnulty.com Wed Feb 18 01:02:56 2009 From: mail at ciaranmcnulty.com (Ciaran McNulty) Date: Wed Feb 18 01:03:02 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Rel-Canonical In-Reply-To: <36AFD8CE-44A0-4A8E-B36B-839DD4FCC105@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <36AFD8CE-44A0-4A8E-B36B-839DD4FCC105@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: Just catching up with this list.. It's interesting you should say that about Content-Location, I made a similar comment in a blog post [1] and there seemed to be some confusion over the exact semantics of the header. As an aside, does anyone know where google/yahoo/MSN discuss this stuff? Is it in a public setting, or is it all behind-doors talks? -Ciaran McNulty [1] http://tinyurl.com/daj7j8 On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Brian Suda wrote: > >> Google has started to use rel-canonical to specific the best URL for >> page information. > > It is a shame they don't seem to have openly discussed this idea before > implementing it. If they had, people may have pointed out that it more or > less duplicates the semantics of the existing Content-Location header from > HTTP 1.1. Content-Location is already a fairly commonly used header, and > although HTTP headers can sometimes require a bit of voodoo to configure, > is available as a substitute. > > -- > Toby A Inkster > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From swarmers at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 12:50:39 2009 From: swarmers at gmail.com (JMesserly) Date: Wed Feb 18 14:45:19 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Is this illegal? 1) dtends for yyyy or yyyy-mm. 2) Wikipedia vevents for birth and death. In-Reply-To: <96a8315f0902181140o6618a55foe5e7409e705edd19@mail.gmail.com> References: <96a8315f0902181140o6618a55foe5e7409e705edd19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96a8315f0902181250n2e63320bu24c68d14b4a004b6@mail.gmail.com> 1) On wikipedia, we have lots of dates where only years or months are specified Eg. the ancient Korean kingdom in this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojoseon the last year of existence was 108BC. The precision is year units so judging from the examples for whole days from the microformats book Brian edited, as well as in the hcalendar, iCalendar (RFC2445) documents, the dtend for this date should be -0107. Similarly, if the battle end date is given as August, 1843 then the dtend should be 1843-09, and if the article says battle end date is August 19, 1843, then the dtend should be 1843-08-20. Correct? (BTW- Consideration was given to postpending something like December 31, 23:59, (or 24:00), but this sort of practice implies a precision that simply does exist for any of these historical events. ) 2) hCalendar usage for death dates. Consider article Ceasar Augustus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:J_JMesserly/demo1. We are aware of proposals for dday (death day) addition to hCard. Some feel vEvent is perfectly suited to Life events. My question: Is the usage of vevent, dtstart and dtend in this example in any way officially deprecated or ruled improper? Thanks. As with my previous inquiry to earlier this month on localities, this sort of usage on wikipedia is easily corrected in the future should microformats.org guidance on usage for historical data evolve to contradict the advice given on these two questions today. -John (User:J JMesserly) at wikipedia and commons. From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Thu Feb 19 03:10:24 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Thu Feb 19 03:10:39 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Is this illegal? 1) dtends for yyyy or yyyy-mm. 2) Wikipedia vevents for birth and death. Message-ID: <460EC1FB-5AB4-4BC0-8928-37641668A8F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> JMesserly wrote: > 1) On wikipedia, we have lots of dates where only years or months are > specified Eg. the ancient Korean kingdom in this article > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojoseon the last year of existence was > 108BC. The precision is year units so judging from the examples for > whole days from the microformats book Brian edited, as well as in the > hcalendar, iCalendar (RFC2445) documents, the dtend for this date > should be -0107. Similarly, if the battle end date is given as August, > 1843 then the dtend should be 1843-09, and if the article says battle > end date is August 19, 1843, then the dtend should be 1843-08-20. > Correct? Looks OK to me. You should be aware that many parsers will not have been tested with dates prior to 1 AD. If they're using decent ISO 8601 parsing libraries, they should probably be OK, but if they've written their own parser for dates, they may not be safe. My own parser mostly deals with such dates OK. The following fragment is parsed correctly for instance:
The death of Julius Caesar occurred on the Ides of March, 44BC.
> 2) hCalendar usage for death dates. Consider article Ceasar Augustus: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:J_JMesserly/demo1. We are aware of > proposals for dday (death day) addition to hCard. Some feel vEvent is > perfectly suited to Life events. My question: Is the usage of > vevent, dtstart and dtend in this example in any way officially > deprecated or ruled improper? hCard officially has no way of marking up dates of death. hCard's properties are entirely taken from vCard 3.0. The IETF is currently drawing up drafts for vCard 4.0 - it looks like this next version of vCard will contain a property 'DDAY' for date of death. Whether hCard is ever updated to use the new vCard standard is another question though. However in my parser I support the proposed new vCard 4.0 properties (which also include 'BIRTH' and 'DEATH' for marking up the places of birth and death) as an hCard extension. Until that time, hCalendar is the only "official" way of marking up dates of death using Microformats. Looking at your example, it does seem a little odd to mark up Augustus' entire life as a single hCalendar event with a start and end date. Not strictly wrong, but unusual. A better way would be to mark up his birth and death as separate events - this has the advantage that you can mark up the locations of birth and death, and even categorise the events as murder, suicide, accidental, etc. -- Toby A Inkster From swarmers at gmail.com Thu Feb 19 09:15:24 2009 From: swarmers at gmail.com (JMesserly) Date: Thu Feb 19 15:53:43 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Is this illegal? 1) dtends for yyyy or yyyy-mm. 2) Wikipedia vevents for birth and death. In-Reply-To: <460EC1FB-5AB4-4BC0-8928-37641668A8F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <460EC1FB-5AB4-4BC0-8928-37641668A8F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <96a8315f0902190915h5c3841bes22b1eaef61d6af2b@mail.gmail.com> Toby A Inkster wrote: > Looking at your example, it does seem a little odd to mark up Augustus' > entire life as a single hCalendar event with a start and end date. Not > strictly wrong, but unusual. A better way would be to mark up his birth and > death as separate events - this has the advantage that you can mark up the > locations of birth and death, and even categorise the events as murder, > suicide, accidental, etc. > Thank you for your response. I will interpret lack of responses to this thread as acknowledgment that the techniques described are regarded as acceptable in the microformats community. To your point, no event is atomic. All are divisible into separate events, and the scope of divisibility is relative to the interest in the subject matter. What do I mean by this? Consider the battle of Gettysburg. Maybe to you and I, it was a famous battle sometime during the civil war and most would put the event somewhere between 1861 to 1865. If we lived in Pennsylvania somewhere near the battle site we might know the dates from our schooling- that the battle was from July 1 to July 3, 1863. Analogously to your "Better" suggestion, should the beginning and end dates be described as separate events? To a historian, and to Wikipedia and commons, even this granularity is rather crude- on the Gettysburg battle we have a large volume of microfomatable information on its constituent events. There are a half dozen articles on the subject. Pickett's charge for example is of historic importance because it foreshadowed the slaughter of World War I due to the dominance of artillery and rapid fire rifles over massed infantry techniques of the Napoleonic era. Some of the events are extremely fine grained, for example the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Round_Top article. We even have historic photos of particular portions of the event such as a fierce conflict at the location known as "Slaughter Pen", that was part of this particular batte. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Slaughter_pen,_foot_of_Round_Top,_Gettysburg.jpg Is the battle of Gettysburg one event, or a collection of thousands? Can a Byzantine politician's lifetime be regarded as one event, or a collection of thousands? I see no semantic distinction between the two, other than human vanity that our life events are somehow different in kind than other types of events, all of which are also aggregations of constituent events. We shall be exposing this information via vevents aggregated onto a web page. If the microformats community sees some utility in specifying additional structure between these events, we can deal with this downstream. I would hope that your community would carefully consider general cases that are widely applicable, rather than special cases that are applicable only to particular sets (such as life event of living beings- hcards with ddays- okay maybe for horses- how about battleships?- Ships are often treated as living beings.). These theoretical matters are for you folks to settle, but that's my two cents. For now, large amounts of work can be done with the existing standards. Thanks go out to all in your community for your service to the microformats initiative. -John From swarmers at gmail.com Thu Feb 19 20:56:30 2009 From: swarmers at gmail.com (JMesserly) Date: Thu Feb 19 20:56:34 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Is this illegal? 1) dtends for yyyy or yyyy-mm. 2) Wikipedia vevents for birth and death. In-Reply-To: <96a8315f0902190915h5c3841bes22b1eaef61d6af2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <460EC1FB-5AB4-4BC0-8928-37641668A8F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> <96a8315f0902190915h5c3841bes22b1eaef61d6af2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96a8315f0902192056g622e27a2n6d8b83f50e368f31@mail.gmail.com> I dropped a word- I meant to write > I will interpret lack of >>further<< responses to the two inquiries as acknowledgment that the techniques described are regarded as acceptable in the microformats community. I did not intend to pre-empt anyone's further comments and in fact would like to hear any additional opinions one way or the other. My interest is in establishing whether anything I describe is in any way deprecated, not permitted, or otherwise considered a felony in some states. Regards, John From jeremy at adactio.com Thu Feb 26 14:59:59 2009 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Thu Feb 26 15:06:45 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Author in hAtom Message-ID: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> I have a question about the "author" property in hAtom... The spec says that "author" is modelled on the Atom AUTHOR element ( http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#requiredFeedElements ) and must be encoded as an hCard. Now, here's an example of a perfectly valid hCard:

Hello, my name is Jeremy Keith.

So my question is: is this valid for hAtom?:

Hello, my name is Jeremy Keith.

The reason I ask is that all of the hAtom examples ( http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples ) show the "author" property *only* containing the n/fn property of an hCard, e.g.:

Hello, my name is Jeremy Keith.

So, is the spec correct and it's just that I'm being slightly misled by the examples? Thanks in advance, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Feb 26 15:14:06 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Feb 26 15:14:09 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Author in hAtom In-Reply-To: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> References: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20902261514k72a17471n48c0653b0aebd26f@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > I have a question about the "author" property in hAtom... > > The spec says that "author" is modelled on the Atom AUTHOR element ( > http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#requiredFeedElements?) and > must be encoded as an hCard. > > Now, here's an example of a perfectly valid hCard: > >

Hello, my name is Jeremy Keith.

> > So my question is: is this valid for hAtom?: > >

Hello, my name is Jeremy > Keith.

> > The reason I ask is that all of the hAtom examples ( > http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples?) show the "author" property > *only* containing the n/fn property of an hCard, e.g.: > >

Hello, my name is Jeremy > Keith.

> > So, is the spec correct and it's just that I'm being slightly misled by the > examples? > > Thanks in advance, > > Jeremy Interesting question. I believe the intention was that the expanded form would be OK, not because of a non-semantic head or tail within the hCard, but because there could be non-semantic text in the middle, e.g. Written by David Janes who's blogging at http://code.davidjanes.com Regards, etc... -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From hober0 at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 16:48:19 2009 From: hober0 at gmail.com (Edward O'Connor) Date: Thu Feb 26 16:48:24 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Author in hAtom In-Reply-To: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> References: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> Message-ID: <3b31caf90902261648x474b8713i384ae8f283284580@mail.gmail.com> > Now, here's an example of a perfectly valid hCard: > >

Hello, my name is Jeremy Keith.

> > So my question is: is this valid for hAtom?: > >

Hello, my name is Jeremy > Keith.

Yup, it's perfectly valid. From andr3.pt at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 02:37:16 2009 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Fri Feb 27 02:37:21 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Author in hAtom In-Reply-To: <3b31caf90902261648x474b8713i384ae8f283284580@mail.gmail.com> References: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> <3b31caf90902261648x474b8713i384ae8f283284580@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Edward, My gut also told me this was valid. I even implemented hatom this way in my blog. After I read this thread, I went to check and lo and behold... Operator transforms the author part of hatom into this: object author { 0=posted by Andr? Lu?s } Which is not what I wanted. I have an fn and url on that hcard. After that, I checked Dmitry's Optimus and I got: Andr? Lu?s Andr? Lu?s (...) So I guess Operator is lacking this "cleverness". It apparently doesn't treat the author vcard as vcard, but as a property of hentry. Cheers, -- Andr? Lu?s On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:48 AM, Edward O'Connor wrote: >> Now, here's an example of a perfectly valid hCard: >> >>

Hello, my name is Jeremy Keith.

>> >> So my question is: is this valid for hAtom?: >> >>

Hello, my name is Jeremy >> Keith.

> > Yup, it's perfectly valid. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From jeremy at adactio.com Fri Feb 27 02:51:46 2009 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Fri Feb 27 02:51:54 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Author in hAtom In-Reply-To: References: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> <3b31caf90902261648x474b8713i384ae8f283284580@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F0E85B4-02FD-4A95-889D-B22815376554@adactio.com> Ted wrote: > Yup, it's perfectly valid. Andr? wrote: > My gut also told me this was valid. I even implemented hatom this way > in my blog. Good stuff. > After I read this thread, I went to check and lo and behold... > Operator transforms the author part of hatom into this: > > object author { > 0=posted by Andr? Lu?s > } Yes, this is one of the things that prompted my question. I noticed that on Huffduffer, Operator was extracted "author" as the whole string: object author { 0=?Huffduffed by adactio 11 hours ago } > So I guess Operator is lacking this "cleverness". It apparently > doesn't treat the author vcard as vcard, but as a property of hentry. Right ...which is technically what the spec says but I guess the spirit of the spec would be to extract hCard *properties* (n/fn, url, email, etc. ? as Optimus does) rather than extracting everything between the opening and closing "vcard" containing elements. Perhaps I should an example to the hAtom examples page to show this usage of the author property. Thanks for the responses, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Feb 27 02:58:46 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Feb 27 02:58:49 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Author in hAtom In-Reply-To: <4F0E85B4-02FD-4A95-889D-B22815376554@adactio.com> References: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> <3b31caf90902261648x474b8713i384ae8f283284580@mail.gmail.com> <4F0E85B4-02FD-4A95-889D-B22815376554@adactio.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20902270258n2393e55fsa2168d34b54ee7a7@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > Ted wrote: >> >> Yup, it's perfectly valid. > > Andr? wrote: >> >> My gut also told me this was valid. I even implemented hatom this way >> in my blog. > > Good stuff. > >> After I read this thread, I went to check and lo and behold... >> Operator transforms the author part of hatom into this: >> >> object author { >> ? ? ? ?0=posted by Andr? Lu?s >> } > > Yes, this is one of the things that prompted my question. I noticed that on > Huffduffer, Operator was extracted "author" as the whole string: > > object author { > ? ? ? ?0=?Huffduffed by adactio 11 hours ago > } > >> So I guess Operator is lacking this "cleverness". It apparently >> doesn't treat the author vcard as vcard, but as a property of hentry. > > Right ...which is technically what the spec says but I guess the spirit of > the spec would be to extract hCard *properties* (n/fn, url, email, etc. ? as > Optimus does) rather than extracting everything between the opening and > closing "vcard" containing elements. > > Perhaps I should an example to the hAtom examples page to show this usage of > the author property. Is this not though, just a general property of microformats in general? I.e. that the semantic information is being encoded at the property level and bundled at the the h* level. Regards, etc... -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From jeremy at adactio.com Fri Feb 27 05:09:03 2009 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Fri Feb 27 05:09:08 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Author in hAtom In-Reply-To: <21e523c20902270258n2393e55fsa2168d34b54ee7a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <949AF858-9CD5-4BFC-84D8-9315FF5869A5@adactio.com> <3b31caf90902261648x474b8713i384ae8f283284580@mail.gmail.com> <4F0E85B4-02FD-4A95-889D-B22815376554@adactio.com> <21e523c20902270258n2393e55fsa2168d34b54ee7a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: David wrote: > Is this not though, just a general property of microformats in > general? I.e. that the semantic information is being encoded at the > property level and bundled at the the h* level. Yes. But with all the examples on the hAtom examples page, that isn't clear (for the hCard bit) so I just want to clarify that. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sat Feb 28 08:29:20 2009 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?UTF-8?Q?Tantek_=C3=87elik?=) Date: Sat Feb 28 08:29:22 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Is this illegal? 1) dtends for yyyy or yyyy-mm. 2) Wikipedia vevents for birth and death. In-Reply-To: <96a8315f0902192056g622e27a2n6d8b83f50e368f31@mail.gmail.com> References: <460EC1FB-5AB4-4BC0-8928-37641668A8F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> <96a8315f0902190915h5c3841bes22b1eaef61d6af2b@mail.gmail.com> <96a8315f0902192056g622e27a2n6d8b83f50e368f31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <60cb038a0902280829p34d170bdk739441a70ebc1ea3@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 8:56 PM, JMesserly wrote: > I dropped a word- I meant to write > >> ? I will interpret lack of >>further<< responses to the two inquiries as acknowledgment that the techniques described are regarded as acceptable in the microformats community. JMesserly, that may not be a reliable conclusion as: 1. The microformats wiki is definitive, the email lists are only "informative". http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Use_the_wiki_to_share_state_instead_of_email http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-better-than-email 2. Absence of objections should not be considered approval http://microformats.org/wiki/logical-flaws#Absence_of_objections_is_not_approval > I did not intend to pre-empt anyone's further comments and in fact > would like to hear any additional opinions one way or the other. I think there are still many ways of looking at the one event vs multiple events question, and thus you will likely see several comparably valid interpretations. Perhaps consider adding an instance of the examples you have with markup to the hCalendar examples page (maybe in a new section) http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples And from there further discussion/iteration can occur. In addition, I have logged a summary of the original issues/question of "is dtends for yyyy or yyyy-mm ok" here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-issues#2009 Please feel free to add more details/links of your question/issue there as well to make sure we capture it properly. Thanks, Tantek From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Sat Feb 28 16:11:00 2009 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Sat Feb 28 16:11:07 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: [uf-new] Re: One issue per thread In-Reply-To: <49A95D20.4030401@digitalbazaar.com> References: <57c601c999ae$d896d6f3$a2475ea8@na.bestbuy.com> <49A95D20.4030401@digitalbazaar.com> Message-ID: <5DBDF01A-D610-4495-932C-C4D7FBC64DCC@ben-ward.co.uk> I am a very pro-wiki person; not just in microformats.org, but everywhere else, too. Also, moving this discussion to microformats-discuss, since this is not discussing the creation of new microformats. On 28 Feb 2009, at 07:49, Manu Sporny wrote: > The only problem with this approach is that it would take a very long > time to develop/implement. I think I would class that problem as ?fatal? to an otherwise beautiful vision of interoperating technologies. Nice try though ;-) On 28 Feb 2009, at 09:47, Scott Reynen wrote: > For what it's worth, I've always considered email a tool for > discussion and the wiki a tool for documentation. But I don't think > that's worth much. I somewhat agree, in that regardless of how the content is compromised, the content of the wiki *must* function as a piece of documentation. It's all the documentation we have, of specs, brainstorms, and so forth. Certainly within this community it is regarded as ?truth? ? ?wiki or it didn't happen?. As such, no matter where discussion takes place, the knowledge from it *must* go on the wiki, or it will be lost. If anything has dragged this community down in the past, it's not being able to accurately refer to past events. Using the wiki thoroughly is what prevents that. The importance of using it as part of spec and related developments here cannot be played down. I think it's well suited to editorially driven content, which is the primary output of microformats.org. * The problem with the lists is that if an issue discussed is not documented on the wiki, you raise an ever increasing barrier to entry for someone else to join that discussion, particularly as time passes and the thread is buried under subsequent unrelated discussions. * Conversely, the problem with the wiki is that a piece of documentation can be spoiled by interjections of disagreement in every other paragraph. I find value in lists for humanising discussion too. Writing this email I'm able to be a little more verbose with mannerisms and language that, hopefully, means everyone appreciates me as a human being rather than a Robot Overlord Admin Robot (additional robot for benefit of awesome ?ROAR? abbreviation). I think that's important to everyone here being able to work together, and the depersonalised nature of documentation on the wiki is the opposite; highly-optimised issues are vital for documentation, but bad for interacting in a friendly manner with the people that contributed. (Issue documented: http://is.gd/laIn) The result is a certain amount of duplicity to having lists. As I say, I have no issue just ignoring list content that should go on the wiki. But, somewhere it shifts a burden: Either to individuals who must ensure their point of view is documented twice, or onto specification editors to pull every discussion together. The latter editorial burdon is not going to be acceptable in most cases; expecting a spec editor to create permanent wiki documentation of every discussion is an unreasonable waste of their time. I'm not anti-email. But I support the idea that everyone contributing must ensure their knowledge is documented. I don't have a clear idea on precisely where the line between different sorts of discussion sits to reduce duplication. B