From dude42 at gmx.de Wed Jul 1 10:59:53 2009 From: dude42 at gmx.de (Simon) Date: Wed Jul 1 11:00:16 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Progress on hAtom? Message-ID: <4A4BA419.7000905@gmx.de> Hi there, I just wondered if there is any progress on hAtom. There are many open questions on the issues page, but nothing really happend since version 0.1. Greets, Simon Brodtmann From bd-net at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 3 07:50:44 2009 From: bd-net at sbcglobal.net (Bob Douglas) Date: Fri Jul 3 08:17:30 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] mixing vocabularies In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780906240723pa1560b3n2dd9ddcc39c5dc48@mail.gmail.com> <20090625234013.GC3501@singpolyma-mini> <4A454200.6010409@yahoo-inc.com> <21e770780906261612l40e2ba73j63502d8a5b290a7b@mail.gmail.com> <4A455C69.6030302@yahoo-inc.com><21e770780906261724s3d4284e2t1eedffa437b89ee@mail.gmail.com><4A45A11D.1000202@yahoo-inc.com> Message-ID: <8E6DB391E1BE460395D508630AEFF405@Owl> Hi, I'm still getting oriented to the list, apologies for the late response, length, and any glaring naiveness. Would post on the wiki, but not familiar enough yet to understand where it would fit. This has been a helpful thread, but seems more guidance on handling mixed context may be a looming issue on MediaWiki/Wikipedia type sites - especially for users who will be introduced to microformats through Operator (Firefox), Oomph (IE), or similar browser add-ons. Two usage problems are: A. Corruption (or significant alteration) of results over time as different editors insert microformat producing templates into wiki pages or add microformats to existing (mw-)templates. B. Significant differences in behavior due to the core "rules" applied in emerging microformat browser tools. Here are two examples from current (30JUN2009) Wikipedia articles: 1. Two vcards/vevents on a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein) The Einstein bio page contains two (un-nested) infoboxes that both declare vcard and vevent classes on the table as : table class="infobox vcard vevent" td class="fn summary">Albert Einstein<.... /table table class="infobox biography vcard vevent" td class="fn summary">Albert Einstein<.... /table Oomph returns the resulting two contacts and two events - none of which are valid (missing the required "n" and "dtstart" values). Detector returns a single valid contact by extracting the "n" values (family-name, given-name) per the spec from the single space delimited "fn" string. Luck in this case as most other bio pages include a middle name or initial. Can't tell from this example if Detector is ignoring or merging the duplicate vcard with identical "fn"/"n" values. (Anybody know the logic?) However, it does ignore the invalid events. Here are the complete contents Detector produces for the Einstein page: BEGIN:VCARD PRODID:-//kaply.com//Operator 0.8//EN SOURCE:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein NAME:Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia VERSION:3.0 N;CHARSET=UTF-8:Einstein;Albert;;; FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Albert Einstein CATEGORIES;CHARSET=UTF-8:W?rttemberg/Germany (1879?96) Switzerland (1901?55) Austria (1911?12) Germany (1914?33) United States (1940?55),Ashkenazi Jewish and German,Physics BDAY:1879-03-14 UID: END:VCARD 2. vcards/vevents nested within another vcard/vevent on page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison The Edison page includes a single biography infobox in which a microformat producing template has been inserted for his two marriages. Intuitively this should simply be two events (three if you count Edison's birth as an event) within the scope of a person's life. What is produced is a strange brew of nested microformat classes. The structure is: table class="infobox biography vcard vevent" td class="fn summary">Thomas Alva Edison<.... span class="vcard" span class="vevent" span class="dtstart">18711885Marriage: Mary Stilwell to Thomas Edison18861932Marriage: Mina Edison to Thomas Edison References: <21e770780906240723pa1560b3n2dd9ddcc39c5dc48@mail.gmail.com> <20090625234013.GC3501@singpolyma-mini> <4A454200.6010409@yahoo-inc.com> <21e770780906261612l40e2ba73j63502d8a5b290a7b@mail.gmail.com> <4A455C69.6030302@yahoo-inc.com> <21e770780906261724s3d4284e2t1eedffa437b89ee@mail.gmail.com> <4A45A11D.1000202@yahoo-inc.com> <8E6DB391E1BE460395D508630AEFF405@Owl> Message-ID: <60cb038a0907041537p4404a3e8tb149f64bfc3eb92d@mail.gmail.com> Replies to Thomas and Bob inline: On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:43 AM, Thomas Loertsch wrote: > I'll try to copy (more of) the referenced conventions inline and make the > page more self-contained. But that isn't always as easy as it sounds: e.g. > "author" is reused from hAtom which itself states that "an Entry Author > element MUST be encoded in an hCard", which - if I got it right - leads to > the following construct: > >
>

Hans Wurst

> > That's not exactly self-containing and standalone. But searchmonkey would > know how to parse it, right? Currently Searchmonkey (and any other hCard parser should treat that hCard as invalid). Per the hCard FAQ you cannot combine "vcard" and "fn" classnames on the same element: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Can_you_mix_properties_and_the_root_class_name However, as this question / implied proposal has come up many times, and microformats does have the design principle of starting and making solutions as simple as possible, I've added a "root only shorthand syntax" proposal to hCard brainstorming for hCard 1.0.1 that would allow specifying an hCard with only the root class name. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#root_only_shorthand_syntax E.g.:

Hans Wurst

Which would then imply the one required property "fn", which could then be used to imply additional property values. In short, this would allow the following (slightly simpler) markup for the above example:

Hans Wurst

For more details of how ROSS would work, or to note issues or suggest improvements, please do not reply inline in email, and instead see and add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#root_only_shorthand_syntax On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Bob Douglas wrote: > Hi, I'm still getting oriented to the list, apologies for the late response, > length, and any glaring naiveness. ? ?Would post on the wiki, but not > familiar enough yet to understand where it would fit. Hello and welcome Bob. Here is a brief guide to where at least some content belongs/fits on the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/put-it-on-the-wiki#where_to_put_what_on_the_wiki > This has been a helpful thread, but seems more guidance on handling mixed > context may be a looming issue on MediaWiki/Wikipedia type sites - > especially for users who will be introduced to microformats through Operator > (Firefox), Oomph (IE), or similar browser add-ons. ? Two usage problems are: > > ?A. Corruption (or significant alteration) of results over time as > different editors insert microformat producing templates into wiki pages or > add microformats to existing (mw-)templates. > > ?B. Significant differences in behavior due to the core "rules" applied in > emerging microformat browser tools. > > Here are two examples from current (30JUN2009) Wikipedia articles: > 1. ?Two vcards/vevents on a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein) Thank you for providing a URL to a real world example. > The Einstein bio page contains two (un-nested) infoboxes that both declare > vcard and vevent classes on the table as : > > ?table class="infobox vcard vevent" > ?td class="fn summary">Albert Einstein<.... > ?/table > > ?table class="infobox biography vcard vevent" > ?td class="fn summary">Albert Einstein<.... > ?/table > > Oomph returns the resulting two contacts and two events - none of which are > valid (missing the required "n" and "dtstart" values). In particular the hCards seem to be fine (n is implied from fn, works in Operator), and thus if you are seeing a problem with Oomph, it may be a bug in Oomph. I just created an oomph-issues page and summarized this problem - it could probably use more details to help track down the problem: http://microformats.org/wiki/oomph-issues > Detector returns a single valid contact I'm unfamiliar with the "Detector" microformats implementation - could you add it to: http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations > by extracting the "n" values > (family-name, given-name) per the spec from the single space delimited "fn" > string. Sounds like it is behaving correctly. > Luck in this case as most other bio pages include a middle name or > initial. One or more example URLs for pages like that would help with refining the resolutions to related hCard issues (when an fn includes a middle name or initial and there is no n property). > Can't tell from this example if Detector is ignoring or merging the > duplicate vcard with identical "fn"/"n" values. ?(Anybody know the logic?) > However, it does ignore the invalid events. ?Here are the complete contents > Detector produces for the Einstein page: > > ?BEGIN:VCARD > ?PRODID:-//kaply.com//Operator 0.8//EN Ah - is "Detector" another name for the "Operator" Firefox extension? http://microformats.org/wiki/operator > ?SOURCE:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein > ?NAME:Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > ?VERSION:3.0 > ?N;CHARSET=UTF-8:Einstein;Albert;;; > ?FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Albert Einstein > ?CATEGORIES;CHARSET=UTF-8:W?rttemberg/Germany (1879?96) Switzerland > (1901?55) Austria (1911?12) Germany (1914?33) United States > (1940?55),Ashkenazi ?Jewish and German,Physics > ?BDAY:1879-03-14 > ?UID: > ?END:VCARD This looks correct, except for the empty "UID", which simply shouldn't be present - if this is actually happening, could you document the specifics (URL, version(s) etc.) on the Operator issues page? http://microformats.org/wiki/operator-issues > 2. vcards/vevents nested within another vcard/vevent on page > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison > > The Edison page includes a single biography infobox in which a microformat > producing template has been inserted for his two marriages. ? Intuitively > this should simply be two events (three if you count Edison's birth as an > event) within the scope of a person's life. ?What is produced is a strange > brew of nested microformat classes. ?The structure is: > > ?table class="infobox biography vcard vevent" > ?td class="fn summary">Thomas Alva Edison<.... > > ? ?span class="vcard" > ? ?span class="vevent" > ? ? ?span class="dtstart">1871 ? ? ?span class="dtend">1885 ? ?span class="fn org summary">Marriage: Mary Stilwell to Thomas > Edison ? ?span class="uid url"> ? ?span class="vevent" > ? ? ?span class="dtstart">1886 ? ? ?span class="dtend">1932 ? ?span class="fn org summary">Marriage: Mina Edison to Thomas Edison ? ?span class="uid url"> Oomph identifies the three events: the two marriages and the vevent on the > infobox table where the "summary" values are concatenated (Thomas Alva > EdisonMarriage: Mary Stilwell to Thomas EdisonMarriage: Mina Edison to > Thomas Edison). That sounds like an Oomph bug as it is not properly respecting the parsing boundary of the nested hCalendar event as specified in the hCard parsing spec: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#nested_hCards Please add the description of this problem and note the nesting rule from hCard parsing to oomph-issues: http://microformats.org/wiki/oomph-issues > None are valid as it is apparently unable to set "dtstart" > from ?the values provided. That sounds like another Oomph issue to note - as the YYYY year values are valid. > Detector identifies only one contact for the page, though technically > invalid since "n" values cannot be automatically extracted from the three > names in "fn". ?The main difference in behavior is that "fn" and "org" > values are set to the first occurrences. ?One obnoxious result of the nested > vcard/vevent is that the marriage event description ("summary") is passed to > the top-level vcard in the "org" attribute. ?The vcard returned by Operator > for the Edison page is: > > ?BEGIN:VCARD > ?PRODID:-//kaply.com//Operator 0.8//EN > ?SOURCE:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison > ?NAME:Thomas Edison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > ?VERSION:3.0 > ?N:;;;; > ?ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Marriage: Mary Stilwell to Thomas Edison > ?FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Thomas Alva Edison > ?ROLE;CHARSET=UTF-8:inventor, scientist, businessman > ?BDAY:1847-02-11 > ?UID: > ?END:VCARD This sounds like Operator 0.8 may have a similar hCard nesting bug as Oomph did with the hCalendar event. Please add it to: http://microformats.org/wiki/operator-issues And note the link to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#nested_hCards for proper parsing behavior. > 1) ?Seems the common practice of slapping "class= vcard vevent" on templates > will be troublesome in a wiki environment - can be too ambiguous for tools > to determine the intended semantic context. I tend to agree with that and wonder if that's something we can somehow incorporate into hcard-authoring and/or hcalendar-authoring: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-authoring > 2) Seems to be a need to clarify default behaviors (rules) related to > context. ? For example, how should a tool handle multiple values for "fn", > "org", "summary", etc within the same div/span of a vcard or vevent class: > concatenate (Oomph), first occurrence (Detector), last occurrence > (override), etc? ?Example is vcard/event, but likely an issue for others > too. First occurrence for singleton properties per: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#finding_hCard_properties multiple occurrences for multi-valued properties should simply generate multiple values. > Best regards, ?Bob Douglas Thanks for the considerable feedback Bob, and please let me know if you have suggestions for how we can improve the discoverability/findability of various pages (and where to put stuff) on the wiki. Tantek -- http://tantek.com/ From alvaro at furilo.com Wed Jul 8 00:18:16 2009 From: alvaro at furilo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C1lvaro_Ortiz?=) Date: Wed Jul 8 00:18:22 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat inside Atom? Message-ID: <4b5b76e90907080018j771bddc8w3b2bd7228c8b5464@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, First a quick introduction as this is the first time I write to this list: my name is ?lvaro, I'm currently in Madrid, Spain, and I work with a small team developing http://www.lacoctelera.com (the main spanish blogging community, focused on non-technical users) and another project we are starting which will be made public after the summer. This new project is a simple tool to share with your friends reviews and comments about cultural products (films, books, etc). We are going ot use hReview for the HTML, but we are also developing an API. We are exploring the idea of a CulturalGraph: a standard which contains information about your cultural preferences, which could be consumed and produced in a federated scheme by different parties. We want that our API produces and consumes this standard format, and as we already have hReview we want to use it, so to not create something new when we already have building blocks we can use. Our API is going to be Atom, but we have questions regarding how to include hReview in it; we didn't find anything in the Microformats wiki, therefore my question: Would you include the hReview inside an Atom item with its own namespace? Something like: film.title 4 I know this is not a pure Microformats question but we thought maybe someone else faced this same case in the past. cheers, ?lvaro ps. our app is in closed beta, if someone wants to help us trying it I can send you an invite. -- http://www.furilo.com http://www.lacoctelera.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Jul 8 01:26:44 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Jul 8 01:42:04 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat inside Atom? In-Reply-To: <4b5b76e90907080018j771bddc8w3b2bd7228c8b5464@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b5b76e90907080018j771bddc8w3b2bd7228c8b5464@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87423115-7C6F-4135-8445-B7CFC024EDD2@tobyinkster.co.uk> On 8 Jul 2009, at 08:18, ?lvaro Ortiz wrote: > Our API is going to be Atom, but we have questions regarding how to > include hReview in it; we didn't find anything in the Microformats > wiki The normal way would be to simply embed it into a element. I don't think there are very many microformat parsers that will read feeds and check content for microformats though. The latest version of Swignition does, but it's not a thoroughly tested feature. As an alternative, you could consider using RSS 1.0 (instead of Atom) which uses RDF for extensibility. This is because there's already a review vocabulary for RDF which is fairly widely used, and strongly influenced by the design of hReview. An example - http://xml.pastebin.com/d6807e48a -- Toby A Inkster From loertsch.thomas at guj.de Wed Jul 8 08:00:10 2009 From: loertsch.thomas at guj.de (Thomas Loertsch) Date: Wed Jul 8 08:00:24 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] mixing vocabularies In-Reply-To: <4A47E44E.8010302@yahoo-inc.com> Message-ID: Hi, 10 SEC SUMMARY split hRecipe vocabulary in an essential core set (mostly self-defined) and additional 'suggestions' (all re-used from other vocabularies) INTRO I did some homework on the hRecipe page like correcting examples and removing superfluous references, but now I'm trying to get back to my basic problem: mixing of vocabularies. Re-reading all the posts in this thread I see a basic consensus that: * vocabularies should be constrained to a basic set of properties (80/20) * for cases outside the 80/20 mixing vocabularies can be a valid approach * mixing microformat vocabularies is principally legal and common practice as well * although there are cases where mixing produces results that parsers cannot easily understand anymore * some advice on best practices and common pitfalls would be helpful: which combinations do work very well, which do not work at all * there is a difference between mixing and combining voacbularies (not sure how important that is). PROBLEM My problem with hRecipe is that the property set falls into three categories: a core set of properties is used by nearly every recipe and also is mostly quite specific to recipes, like "ingredient" and "instructions". The other set of properties I'd like to call 'supplemental' or 'nice to have', like "photo", "author", "summary" or "tag". They are not essential for the functionality of a recipe - you can cook the recipe without the publishing date, but not without the list of ingredients - but nonetheless do make sense in one or the other way and get used quite often. A third set, mainly review properties, are not added, because they rightfully form their own microformat but nonetheless would be useful and are in broad use together with hRecipe. OBSERVATIONS Interestingly I recognized a pattern that some of these 'supplemental' properties get reused from other vocabularies rather then from hRecipe itself. Since a lot of recipes I found where published on weblogs, the blog software had taken care of the properties "author" and "published" anyway and there was no need to add them to the recipe a second time - at least that's how I interpret their usage. Similar but different is the case of the title/name of a recipe: hRecipe reuses "fn" and that's fine since it really is a core part of most recipes: although the name is not functionally essential to cooking it is very important because it is the "handle" to human readably define a specific recipe. Then the rel-tag pattern is so self-contained and popular that it really doesn't need to be mentioned explicitely by the recipe-vocabulary. Finally a lot of recipes on the web get published as "user generated content" on big recipe sites. An important part of the functionality and popularity of these sites is that other users can (and do) review these recipes through comments and ranking. Still in my view a recipe and it's review are two very distinct items and I'd never want them mixed in one vocabulary. Seems to me that it's for a reason that hReview is a vocabulary on it's own. COUNTING There is also that other thing: Tantek raised an issue about "Too many Properties" in hRecipe, arguing that one should start with a property set as small as possible. IMO smallish-ness is not a quality in itself: if a vocabulary is too minimized it's not broadly useful anymore and consequently won't be adopted because the effort doesn't provide enough return. The size has to be not too small and not too big, but "just right" - whatever that means ;-) An interim "solution" was that some properties got marked "experimental" until further observations on "implementation and general uptake" have been gathered. I recently investigated the usage of hRecipe through a query on Searchmonkey (documented on the wiki and on this list in june 09) with a result that could support both views: 16 fn 17 ingredient (3 value, 3 type) 3 yield 15 instructions 3 duration 4 photo 9 summary 4 author 3 published 1 nutrition (0 value, 0 type) 2 tag A few properties get used most of the time while a lot of properties get used some times. Only nutrition get's a very low count (but see note below *). I didn't count other properties but it ws obvious that a lot of recipes had review sections added. PROPOSAL: *CORE* AND *SUPPLEMENTAL* PROPERTIES I would like to refactor hRecipe according to these observations. Only properties that are * very essentiel to the functionality of a recipe * very commonly used with recipes * very specific to recipes should remain in the (CORE) property set. These would be: fn ingredient yield instructions duration nutrition Other properties that are very popular or make very much sense * and are reused from other formats * should be added to the format documentation as 'supplemental' (preliminary wording - native speakers to the rescue, please) together with some advice on how to mix them in technically and semantically correct. These (SUPPLEMENTAL) properties would be: photo summary author published tag value, type as sub-properties (also hMeasure) and hReview as a new property (-set). They would not become part of the vocabulary but be added as proposed/possible additions in real-live usage of recipes. Parsers would not be required (but expected?) to recognize them. The more I think about it the more I like this approach. Sorry for the long mail but I wonder if this couldn't be a generally useful way to modify reuse of vocabulary terms, more flexible than microformats currently do . Before I start formalizing it in a new draft - hRecipe 0.3 - I'd like to gather some feedback! Any thoughts? Cheers, Thomas P.S.: I'll switch my list membership to a private mail-adress soon. So please don't be surprised about that new "thomas@stray.net" who seems to share my point of view all the time... (*) although, given the absolute percentages, it get's used quite at lot because the big recipe sites use it and they make up the majority of recipes on the web, while I only counted different sites - an approach which favoured the blogs - and most blog authors won't know (or won't care?) how to measure nutritional informations . Thomas L?rtsch Gruner+Jahr, Hamburg, Germany ... eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de -> 07/2009 08/2009 -> thomas@stray.net From martin at weborganics.co.uk Thu Jul 9 01:15:34 2009 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Thu Jul 9 01:15:45 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? Message-ID: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> Hello all I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? I have always thought 'h' was for 'hypertext' but could it mean 'hypermedia' or even 'html' perhaps it means nothing? best wishes Martin http://weborganics.co.uk/ From loertsch.thomas at guj.de Thu Jul 9 03:45:44 2009 From: loertsch.thomas at guj.de (Thomas Loertsch) Date: Thu Jul 9 03:45:51 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: On 09.07.09 10:15, "Martin McEvoy" wrote: > Hello all > > I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? > I have always thought 'h' was for 'hypertext' but could it mean > 'hypermedia' or even 'html' > > perhaps it means nothing? my guess: it stands for that certain greek letter that's hard to describe because it's not on the average keyboard, pronounced "m?" or "miu", common shortcut for "micro". that letter, vertically reflected, looks like an "h". just a guess, but convincing enough that i stopped bothering :-) thomas . Thomas L?rtsch Gruner+Jahr, Hamburg, Germany ... eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de -> 07/2009 08/2009 -> thomas@stray.net From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 03:56:17 2009 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Jul 9 03:56:23 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: 2009/7/9 Thomas Loertsch : > > > > On 09.07.09 10:15, "Martin McEvoy" wrote: > >> Hello all >> >> I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? >> I have always thought 'h' was for 'hypertext' but could it mean >> 'hypermedia' or even 'html' >> >> perhaps it means nothing? > > > my guess: it stands for that certain greek letter that's hard to describe > because it's not on the average keyboard, pronounced "m?" or "miu", common > shortcut for "micro". that letter, vertically reflected, looks like an "h". > > > just a guess, but convincing enough that i stopped bothering :-) > thomas "h" stands for whatever you want it to be! *airy fairy disney movie*. It's html. Think, this is this thing, represented in html. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com From andr3.pt at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 03:59:33 2009 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Thu Jul 9 03:59:38 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: Martin, it really doesn't matter that much but from hcard wiki page: ---- hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for representing people, companies, organizations, and places, using a 1:1 representation of vCard (RFC2426) properties and values in semantic HTML or XHTML. hCard is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding in HTML, XHTML, Atom, RSS, and arbitrary XML. ---- The h is used both in html and xhtml and it means the same thing, obviously. So I'd always thought it meant hypertext... but really, 'tis only a tiny detail. :) Still, I get asked this frequently in training sessions. That and "wtf does FN stand for?" Formatted name is not the first that springs to their mind... :) Cheers, -- Andr? Lu?s On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Thomas Loertsch wrote: > > > > On 09.07.09 10:15, "Martin McEvoy" wrote: > >> Hello all >> >> I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? >> I have always thought 'h' was for 'hypertext' but could it mean >> 'hypermedia' or even 'html' >> >> perhaps it means nothing? > > > my guess: it stands for that certain greek letter that's hard to describe > because it's not on the average keyboard, pronounced "m?" or "miu", common > shortcut for "micro". that letter, vertically reflected, looks like an "h". > > > just a guess, but convincing enough that i stopped bothering :-) > thomas > > . > Thomas L?rtsch > Gruner+Jahr, Hamburg, Germany > ... > eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de -> 07/2009 > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 08/2009 -> thomas@stray.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Thu Jul 9 07:16:04 2009 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?UTF-8?Q?Tantek_=C3=87elik?=) Date: Thu Jul 9 07:16:30 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: <60cb038a0907090716h491bf06cg771445cd87aa34ce@mail.gmail.com> >> On 09.07.09 10:15, "Martin McEvoy" wrote: >> >>> Hello all >>> >>> I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? >>> I have always thought 'h' was for 'hypertext' but could it mean >>> 'hypermedia' or even 'html' It's in the microformats FAQ :) http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q._What_is_the_.27h.27_for.2C_in_front_of_Calendar_and_Card.3F As the inventor+namer of hCalendar and hCard[1] (the first use of the lowercase 'h' prefix convention), I can tell you that the 'h' stands for "the HTML version of", in those cases, "of iCalendar and vCard" respectively. Sometime after the fact (at least a few years ago, before it came up again in this thread), someone else posited (maybe Rohit?) that the "h" looked like an upside down greek letter mu ? which is used in scientific notation to mean "micro" - but that was purely a coincidence. Tantek [1] http://tantek.com/log/2004/09.html#d30t1725 From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Thu Jul 9 07:46:19 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby Inkster) Date: Thu Jul 9 07:46:24 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: <1247150779.6412.1.camel@ophelia2.g5n.co.uk> On Thu, 2009-07-09 at 09:15 +0100, Martin McEvoy wrote: > I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? hAtom, hCard, hCalendar, hReview etc are all named after the character Horatio "H" Caine from the popular police procedural television series "CSI: Miami". -- Toby A Inkster From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Jul 9 08:02:20 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Jul 9 08:02:46 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: <1247150779.6412.1.camel@ophelia2.g5n.co.uk> References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> <1247150779.6412.1.camel@ophelia2.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20907090802o37a97a84h513af7d482e2a19a@mail.gmail.com> Actually, the "h" in hAtom comes from the preferred way we Irish-descended Newfoundlanders prefer to pronounce words beginning with a vowel sound -- i.e. you should be saying it as two syllables, not three ;-) Regards, etc... On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Toby Inkster wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-07-09 at 09:15 +0100, Martin McEvoy wrote: > > I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? > > hAtom, hCard, hCalendar, hReview etc are all named after the character > Horatio "H" Caine from the popular police procedural television series > "CSI: Miami". > > -- > Toby A Inkster > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From tdrake at yahoo-inc.com Thu Jul 9 08:05:10 2009 From: tdrake at yahoo-inc.com (Ted Drake) Date: Thu Jul 9 08:05:28 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: <1247150779.6412.1.camel@ophelia2.g5n.co.uk> References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> <1247150779.6412.1.camel@ophelia2.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <004401ca00a6$a8112ef0$5fd94c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> I thought that was the case. You know, there is a remarkable similarity between Horatio and Tantek. They are probably mistaken for each other all the time. Ted -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Toby Inkster Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:46 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? On Thu, 2009-07-09 at 09:15 +0100, Martin McEvoy wrote: > I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? hAtom, hCard, hCalendar, hReview etc are all named after the character Horatio "H" Caine from the popular police procedural television series "CSI: Miami". -- Toby A Inkster _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 05:18:42 2009 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Jul 10 05:18:47 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? Message-ID: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> http://www.mediastandardstrust.org/medianews/newsdetails.aspx?sid=46551 Has anyone heard about the APs attempt to make a microformat? Did i miss something or did they just go and do their own thing? -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From charlvn at charlvn.za.net Fri Jul 10 05:53:22 2009 From: charlvn at charlvn.za.net (Charl van Niekerk) Date: Fri Jul 10 05:53:28 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3817f86f0907100553gf718cf8k636e1c679c3a0048@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Brian Suda wrote: > Has anyone heard about the APs attempt to make a microformat? Did i > miss something or did they just go and do their own thing? Strange that none of them joined the list and posted about this already. Perhaps they have their own internal standardisation procedures and got caught up in that. Taking a look at what the new microformat is supposed to do, it seems like their needs can very easily be accommodated using the existing microformats or a combination of them (rel-license, rel-tag, adr, geo, hAtom, hMedia, etc). If they need to create a new one, it should be reasonably easy. Best Regards, Charl From martin at weborganics.co.uk Fri Jul 10 06:12:59 2009 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Jul 10 06:13:10 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> Brian Suda wrote: > http://www.mediastandardstrust.org/medianews/newsdetails.aspx?sid=46551 > > Has anyone heard about the APs attempt to make a microformat? Did i > miss something or did they just go and do their own thing? > I think they went out and did their own thing, the draft "hNews" microformat is here: http://www.valueaddednews.org/technical/techspec It says it was published in August 2008. Best wishes Martin From charlvn at charlvn.com Fri Jul 10 06:38:04 2009 From: charlvn at charlvn.com (Charl van Niekerk) Date: Fri Jul 10 06:38:08 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: <3817f86f0907100638h9dc0f58id7b114db759d6e73@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Martin McEvoy wrote: > I think they went out and did their own thing, the draft "hNews" microformat > is here: > > http://www.valueaddednews.org/technical/techspec > > It says it was published in August 2008. I took a quick look around their site and the people seem to be reasonably clued up. They have some code [1] online which seems to make use of html5lib. Perhaps somebody should contact them and ask them kindly to bring their work across in order to avoid duplication of efforts? They could make some valuable contributions. [1] http://github.com/markng/newscredit_api/tree/master Best Regards, Charl From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jul 10 06:52:42 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jul 10 06:53:09 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20907100652o7424413apfe0b688d78ba3af@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Martin McEvoy wrote: > > Brian Suda wrote: >> >> http://www.mediastandardstrust.org/medianews/newsdetails.aspx?sid=46551 >> >> Has anyone heard about the APs attempt to make a microformat? Did i >> miss something or did they just go and do their own thing? >> > > I think they went out and did their own thing, the draft "hNews" microformat is here: > > http://www.valueaddednews.org/technical/techspec > > It says it was published in August 2008. > > Best wishes > > Martin It's an overlay on hAtom, note the example. hentry entry-content, though they seem to have invented duplicates, like "dateline" From martin at weborganics.co.uk Fri Jul 10 06:54:19 2009 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Jul 10 06:54:31 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: <004401ca00a6$a8112ef0$5fd94c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> <1247150779.6412.1.camel@ophelia2.g5n.co.uk> <004401ca00a6$a8112ef0$5fd94c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A57480B.3080404@weborganics.co.uk> Thanks all for your response to this question some of it was quite surprising particularly Tobys, "H" is for Horatio from CSI , I have never heard of that great stuff. A quick recap "h" in microformats means: 1 "the HTML version of" or just HTML 2 The Greek letter micro ? (Mu) inverted 3 In hAtom, it the Irish pronunciation of "h" next to a vowel which is softly spoken with a strong spoken "A" as in "hay" (is this correct David?) 4 The "H" from Horatio Cain Thanks again Martin From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jul 10 07:00:58 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jul 10 07:01:21 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean? In-Reply-To: <4A57480B.3080404@weborganics.co.uk> References: <4A55A726.4020901@weborganics.co.uk> <1247150779.6412.1.camel@ophelia2.g5n.co.uk> <004401ca00a6$a8112ef0$5fd94c0a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> <4A57480B.3080404@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: <21e523c20907100700v2cad7adcx1f5fae2502e6daca@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Martin McEvoy wrote: > 1 "the HTML version of" or just HTML > 2 The Greek letter micro ? (Mu) inverted > 3 In hAtom, it the Irish pronunciation of "h" next to a vowel which is > softly spoken with a strong spoken "A" as in "hay" (is this correct David?) > 4 The "H" from Horatio Cain discuss > It'd depend on which bay you call home, but I'd use the "a" sound from "dad" [1] Regards, etc... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_English From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Thu Jul 16 18:26:32 2009 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?UTF-8?Q?Tantek_=C3=87elik?=) Date: Thu Jul 16 18:26:55 2009 Subject: updating hAtom (was Re: [uf-discuss] Progress on hAtom?) and a quick note on hNews Message-ID: <60cb038a0907161826m770ce343q91fe84e4a31359b0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Simon wrote: > I just wondered if there is any progress on hAtom. > There are many open questions on the issues page, but nothing really happend > since version 0.1. Hi Simon, apologies for the delay - been a bit busy with organizing microformatsDevCamp[1]. First all, thanks very much for adding to the notes on hAtom issues and proposed resolutions: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues This is precisely one of the first things we need to do to update hAtom: * proposed resolutions to all outstanding issues with at least some amount of consensus. Next we will need to take a look at any hAtom brainstorming that has occurred since hAtom 0.1 and consider each brainstorm to see if it makes sense to include in hAtom 0.2 or not. Finally, we'll need an editor (hopefully David Janes, but he's agreed to let me co-edit in the event he is too busy to do so) to incorporate these changes in 0.2. I'm currently taking similar steps to updating hCard/hCalendar/hReview, and hAtom would be next on my list. You (as well as everyone else here) can very much help out with this process by reviewing the issues and resolutions of each of those specs (for hAtom, take a look at hCard issues and resolutions too, as they may affect hAtom as well). Join the IRC channel as well - where often times it is much easier to get quick questions about issues or specs answered, and to make faster progress. http://microformats.org/wiki/irc Thanks, Tantek P.S. I've been taking a look at the related AP proposal/work on "hNews" - and I think there is a lot there that makes sense. We should definitely consider "hNews" as part of hAtom brainstorming to considered for incorporation into hAtom 0.2. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2009-07-25-dev-camp From mark at markng.me.uk Fri Jul 17 13:40:18 2009 From: mark at markng.me.uk (Mark Ng) Date: Fri Jul 17 13:40:33 2009 Subject: updating hAtom (was Re: [uf-discuss] Progress on hAtom?) and a quick note on hNews In-Reply-To: <60cb038a0907161826m770ce343q91fe84e4a31359b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <60cb038a0907161826m770ce343q91fe84e4a31359b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/7/17 Tantek ?elik? > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Simon wrote: > P.S. I've been taking a look at the related AP proposal/work on > "hNews" - and I think there is a lot there that makes sense. We should > definitely consider "hNews" as part of hAtom brainstorming to > considered for incorporation into hAtom 0.2. Just a quick note, because I have a half drafted email to respond to previous thread re the 'hNews' stuff, but haven't had the time to finish it yet. ?I work (part time) for the MST (not AP) and created the "Value Added News" site and was a contributor to the draft proposal. ?There's a full explanation coming for the microformats community (and I think you deserve one, but I've been working for a different client for the whole of the last week), but there's no intention on the part of the MST (nor, I believe, the AP, though I don't speak for them) to freeze out the community nor "just do it by ourselves" - I can see how we may have created that impression, however. I'm trying to work out whether I can get to microformatsdevcamp, too, though London -> San Francisco is a way to go (that said, I'm about to travel to the US for three months anyway - just not sure if I can get the dates to work.) Mark From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jul 17 14:13:35 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jul 17 14:14:04 2009 Subject: updating hAtom (was Re: [uf-discuss] Progress on hAtom?) and a quick note on hNews In-Reply-To: <60cb038a0907161826m770ce343q91fe84e4a31359b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <60cb038a0907161826m770ce343q91fe84e4a31359b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20907171413i18edac4ne1a7e514eaa25ec6@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Simon wrote: > > I just wondered if there is any progress on hAtom. > > There are many open questions on the issues page, but nothing really happend > > since version 0.1. > > Hi Simon, apologies for the delay - been a bit busy with organizing > microformatsDevCamp[1]. > > > First all, thanks very much for adding to the notes on hAtom issues > and proposed resolutions: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues > > This is precisely one of the first things we need to do to update hAtom: > > * proposed resolutions to all outstanding issues with at least some > amount of consensus. > > Next we will need to take a look at any hAtom brainstorming that has > occurred since hAtom 0.1 and consider each brainstorm to see if it > makes sense to include in hAtom 0.2 or not. > > Finally, we'll need an editor (hopefully David Janes, but he's agreed > to let me co-edit in the event he is too busy to do so) to incorporate > these changes in 0.2. I'm in to help. I've been hesitating because the uF process sometimes gives me indigestion, but I think it's time we hit this one. Regards, etc... David From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Fri Jul 17 14:34:06 2009 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek Celik) Date: Fri Jul 17 14:34:14 2009 Subject: updating hAtom (was Re: [uf-discuss] Progress on hAtom?) and a quick note on hNews Message-ID: <88803455-1247866448-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2120186454-@bxe1303.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> David Janes wrote: > I'm in to help. I've been hesitating because the uF process sometimes > gives me indigestion, but I think it's time we hit this one. David really glad to hear you're in to help. That's wonderful news! Regarding microformats process details, I'll help where I can to make it easier and smoother. One thing you should keep in mind is that we're focusing more and more on using the wiki and minimizing use of email[1]. With the increasing interest in microformats, and several parallel simultaneous efforts, now more than ever we'll need to put all actual content, issues, +1/0/-1 opinions, followups, resolutions etc on the wiki, and use the lists as little as possible. As an editor, we really need you in particular to set an example with working with the wiki and encouraging others to do so as well. Thanks in advance and looking forward to working with you again. Tantek [1] http://tr.im/wikibetter From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Sat Jul 18 06:55:20 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Sat Jul 18 06:55:44 2009 Subject: updating hAtom (was Re: [uf-discuss] Progress on hAtom?) and a quick note on hNews In-Reply-To: <88803455-1247866448-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2120186454-@bxe1303.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <88803455-1247866448-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2120186454-@bxe1303.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <21e523c20907180655j5c9755e3x6bbec1ea5809ca@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Tantek Celik wrote: > David Janes wrote: > >> I'm in to help. I've been hesitating because the uF process sometimes >> gives me indigestion, but I think it's time we hit this one. > > David really glad to hear you're in to help. That's wonderful news! > > Regarding microformats process details, I'll help where I can to make it easier and smoother. > > One thing you should keep in mind is that we're focusing more and more on using the wiki and minimizing use of email[1]. With the increasing interest in microformats, and several parallel simultaneous efforts, now more than ever we'll need to put all actual content, issues, +1/0/-1 opinions, followups, resolutions etc on the wiki, and use the lists as little as possible. > > As an editor, we really need you in particular to set an example with working with the wiki and encouraging others to do so as well. > > Thanks in advance and looking forward to working with you again. > > Tantek > I've starting inserting votes & "to dos" (to get further expansion of people's points or calls for examples). Regards, etc... From mark at markng.me.uk Mon Jul 20 06:28:13 2009 From: mark at markng.me.uk (Mark Ng) Date: Mon Jul 20 06:28:24 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I work for the Media Standards Trust, and I'm partly responsible for the value added news/'hnews' work. ?I speak for the MST, rather than the AP, that said, I believe most of our views on these subjects are similar or the same. ?I'll also encourage the people from AP who are involved in this work to get involved in this discussion too (and they've indicated to me recently that they'd like to engage with the microformats community). Some history : In mid-2008, the Media Standards Trust won grants from the Knight News Challenge and the MacArthur Foundation to "help improve the transparency of news online" [1]. I got involved later in 2008. ?At that time, the MST had already decided that the best way forward was to either encourage the use of existing microformats or to create their own. ?They had an internal draft poshformat, which I changed to be based on hatom (as significant portions of what it did was covered by hAtom). ?I spent a bit of time talking to people I know who are involved in the microformats community to seek advice about the best way of doing things (and got some very valuable feedback from Tantek at a barcamp), and fired a couple of emails at the microformats lists and didn't get much response. ?I released what I had done at that point as a set of recommendations on the use of, and a few extensions to hAtom [2], and a new poshformat "rel-principles" [3]. ?This work can be seen at http://newscredit.org/ (particularly under the development section). ?This site will soon be deprecated in favour of our latter work. We then focussed on spending time talking to news organisations about working with us on the format, and have had sets of discussions with Reuters, The Guardian, BBC, AP and others with varying degrees of success. When we approached the AP, we found that they were also looking at doing a large release of content with some form of consistent markup - they were looking at either using existing microformats or creating their own, in much the same manner that the MST had been doing. ?We then decided to merge our efforts in order to not duplicate work. After looking at our work, they were also convinced that extending hAtom was the way forward. ?As I understand it, due to internal commercial concerns, they were not ready to be able to discuss this particularly publicly until very recently (they're using this as part of their new content API release, which at the time they were not discussing publicly, but which is currently in private beta). ?As we believe that expediency was important to keep this project moving, we have released a early draft version of our work to the outside world. Because we intended on seeing whether our work would be accepted by the microformats community, it's currently termed, within its specification, as a microformat - if this document doesn't end up being taken into the microformats process for whatever reason, the MST (and I believe the AP, but I don't speak for them) would stop referring to it as a microformat. ?If changes proposed in this document are moved into hatom as suggested elsewhere on the list, or a news-specific microformat, we'd be very happy. However, we recognised that hatom is much more multi-purpose than the news industries requirements, and can well see that alot of our proposed work needs to sit outside the hatom specification. We're sorry if we've made it appear as though we're trying to do this unilaterally. ?We very much want to work with the microformats community on getting more machine-readable meaning into the news media, and I'll be attending the microformatsdevcamp this weekend in that spirit. ?On a related note, is all I need to do to attend that camp to add myself to the wiki and upcoming as attending ? As a side-note, we're looking for people (preferably based in the UK, potentially on a consultancy or permanent basis) to help us drive adoption of (both 'lower' and 'upper' case) semantic web technologies in the news media. ?I would love to hear from you off-list if you'd like to be involved. [1] : http://www.mediastandardstrust.com/projects/transparency.aspx [2] : http://newscredit.org/development/newscredit-specification/ [3] : http://newscredit.org/development/newscredit-specification/rel-principles-specification/ From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Mon Jul 20 11:22:11 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Mon Jul 20 11:22:41 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hAtom Days! Message-ID: <21e523c20907201122l1629a584k79c2c2be0a65a4b@mail.gmail.com> These are all in reference to this page: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues (1) I've added a "vote" to many issues on _whether_ something should be included in hAtom 0.2 (as opposed to deferring it for later). If it's important to you, vote it up. (2) I've added a number of "ToDo" notes, asking for clarifications and examples of issues raised. Particularly examples! If you see something you can help with, please do (3) If you're interested in any of the issues, please edit in your opinion and/or vote Regards, etc... David From khare at alumni.caltech.edu Tue Jul 21 14:35:39 2009 From: khare at alumni.caltech.edu (Rohit Khare) Date: Tue Jul 21 14:36:00 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] An invitation to sponsor microformatsDevCamp this weekend... Message-ID: <32052312-703C-4598-A85D-8EA2D512FE23@alumni.caltech.edu> Fellow microformateers -- I'm the 'sponsor wrangler' for the microformatsDevCamp coming up this weekend at Automattic in SF; see http://tr.im/ufcp for all the great news and details. I'm writing to invite you and your colleagues to participate, and to help spread the word to other Web developers. And, of course, to ask if you could help us out by sponsoring! It's a pretty informal camp, so microformats.org is not managing the money directly; we're looking for companies or individuals to sponsor meals by ordering directly for the 30-50 developers, designers, authors, and publishers we expect to participate (bagels, pizza, indian food, beer -- nothing too fancy). Some of our other contributions are up to $400, but even $250 or so would be much appreciated While our snazzy commemorative T-shirts are already printed -- free with any donation at the door ($20 suggested) -- we will be thanking all of our sponsors profusely off-line and on-line. We'd be glad to arrange signage, logos, and a few moments to chat with the attendees, too. If you think this would be of interest to you or one of your colleagues, please don't hesitate to contact me directly at khare@alumni.caltech.edu or at (650) 714-5529. Thanks, Rohit From soc at code404.com Fri Jul 24 13:10:08 2009 From: soc at code404.com (Justin Maxwell) Date: Fri Jul 24 13:10:13 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] mf-currency: negative values Message-ID: <7E5C6A61-6E51-403F-93BC-944C7F3AB936@code404.com> Hi all, In reading the wiki pages regarding currency and measure, I'm not finding much info or discussion around the use of negative prefix in currency. Sometimes it is placed before the currency symbol, sometimes it is placed after. In other cases the prefix is not used at all and column headers are used to indicate whether the amount is a credit (+) or debit (-). Examples of prefix use: Chase.com $-243.76 Amex.com -172.12 Mint.com ?$16 BofA.com -$8.06 What we're initially proposed to do at Mint.com is this: -$777 defining the attribute "sign". In a discussion with Guillaume Lebleu privately, he mentioned that the distinction here is that the amount itself is not positive or negative. Rather, it is the transaction. For this, we define it as a credit or debit. Which could lead us to this: -$777 I'd like to hear some thoughts from the semantic specialists on this list. Many thanks, Justin From soc at code404.com Fri Jul 24 13:15:39 2009 From: soc at code404.com (Justin Maxwell) Date: Fri Jul 24 13:15:48 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: mf-currency: negative values In-Reply-To: <7E5C6A61-6E51-403F-93BC-944C7F3AB936@code404.com> References: <7E5C6A61-6E51-403F-93BC-944C7F3AB936@code404.com> Message-ID: <01812515-BBB9-448D-84FB-11178B23B46A@code404.com> One note. There's another option here using generated content in CSS: $777 Where we then specify .transaction-type[title="debit"] abbr:before { content: "-"; } To get the desired effect in display (in supported browsers). On Jul 24, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Justin Maxwell wrote: > Hi all, > > In reading the wiki pages regarding currency and measure, I'm not > finding much info or discussion around the use of negative prefix in > currency. Sometimes it is placed before the currency symbol, > sometimes it is placed after. In other cases the prefix is not used > at all and column headers are used to indicate whether the amount is > a credit (+) or debit (-). > > Examples of prefix use: > Chase.com > $-243.76 > > Amex.com > -172.12 > > Mint.com > ?$16 > > BofA.com > -$8.06 > > What we're initially proposed to do at Mint.com is this: > > - class="currency" title="USD">$777 span> > > defining the attribute "sign". > > In a discussion with Guillaume Lebleu privately, he mentioned that > the distinction here is that the amount itself is not positive or > negative. Rather, it is the transaction. For this, we define it as > a credit or debit. Which could lead us to this: > > - span>$ class="amount">777 > > I'd like to hear some thoughts from the semantic specialists on this > list. > > Many thanks, > Justin From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 13:48:13 2009 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Jul 24 13:48:17 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Re: mf-currency: negative values In-Reply-To: <01812515-BBB9-448D-84FB-11178B23B46A@code404.com> References: <7E5C6A61-6E51-403F-93BC-944C7F3AB936@code404.com> <01812515-BBB9-448D-84FB-11178B23B46A@code404.com> Message-ID: <21e770780907241348y2ab96a86ob74e13ab8485e7ef@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Justin Maxwell wrote: > One note. ?There's another option here using generated content in CSS: ... > .transaction-type[title="debit"] abbr:before { > ? ? ? ?content: "-"; > } > > To get the desired effect in display (in supported browsers). --- I'm still thinking about the other email, but i would discourage the use of generated content for 2 reasons. Browsers that don't support it are NOT displaying some pretty important information!!! Secondly, i would argue that the "-" sign has semantic value. In lists the "," is presentational, whereas in -$9.99 the "-" has meaning. It would be like rending Drop Caps with CSS, then your paragraph would read "t was a dark and stormy night" rather than "It was ..." That's my +2 cents, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From leeand00 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 25 16:42:44 2009 From: leeand00 at hotmail.com (Andrew Leer) Date: Sat Jul 25 16:42:48 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hours of Business Micro Format Message-ID: I was wondering if there was yet a Microformat for a business's hours of operation. If not, I would like to suggest the discussion of creating one. I am already aware that there is a MF for events (hCalendar) and perhaps it could be an extension of this so that it could still be read as an hCalendar MF, but that it would have some sort of information linking it to an hCard. It seems to me that the hours of business would be useful when combined with the location of a location-required business like a coffeeshop or eatery. In visiting the website a user could eventually send their location (either by entering it or via location-based-browsing) and based on the estimated time of arrival, the website could tell them if they have enough time to reach the location of the establishment before it closes. Thank you, Andrew J. Leer http://www.twitter.com/leeand00/ http://leeand00.tiddlyspot.com/ From thomas at stray.net Sun Jul 26 06:47:21 2009 From: thomas at stray.net (thomas) Date: Sun Jul 26 06:47:32 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hours of Business Micro Format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28E20B16-95EB-44ED-B62C-CB67C14B652A@stray.net> hi andrew, maybe you are interested in the "availability" vocabulary that tom heath started developing at vocamp ibiza: http://tomheath.com/tmp/availability.ttl ciao thomas [ ?Relational databases? We call those ?legacy?.? ] Am 26.07.2009 um 01:42 schrieb Andrew Leer: > > > I was wondering if there was yet a Microformat for a business's > hours of operation. If not, I would like to suggest the discussion > of creating one. I am already aware that there is a MF for events > (hCalendar) and perhaps it could be an extension of this so that it > could still be read as an hCalendar MF, but that it would have some > sort of information linking it to an hCard. > > It seems to me that the hours of business would be useful when > combined with the location of a location-required business like a > coffeeshop or eatery. > > In visiting the website a user could eventually send their > location (either by entering it or via location-based-browsing) and > based on the estimated time of arrival, the website could tell them > if they have enough time to reach the location of the establishment > before it closes. > > > Thank you, > > Andrew J. Leer > > http://www.twitter.com/leeand00/ > http://leeand00.tiddlyspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From jmyers at visi.com Tue Jul 28 07:53:21 2009 From: jmyers at visi.com (Jay Myers) Date: Tue Jul 28 07:53:24 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hours of Business Micro Format In-Reply-To: <28E20B16-95EB-44ED-B62C-CB67C14B652A@stray.net> References: <28E20B16-95EB-44ED-B62C-CB67C14B652A@stray.net> Message-ID: From othar at othar.com Tue Jul 28 09:22:09 2009 From: othar at othar.com (Othar Hansson) Date: Tue Jul 28 09:22:14 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Hours of Business Micro Format In-Reply-To: <28E20B16-95EB-44ED-B62C-CB67C14B652A@stray.net> References: <28E20B16-95EB-44ED-B62C-CB67C14B652A@stray.net> Message-ID: <6934bc6b0907280922q2b96b90h51d47e409dd1d3ec@mail.gmail.com> For comparison, you might also be interested in checking out the store-hours specification in the Good Relations RDF vocabulary: http://www.heppnetz.de/projects/goodrelations/primer/#3.12_Step_10:_Shop_Locations_and_Opening_Hours --Othar On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 6:47 AM, thomas wrote: > > hi andrew, > > maybe you are interested in the "availability" vocabulary that tom heath started developing at vocamp ibiza: http://tomheath.com/tmp/availability.ttl > > ciao > thomas > > > [ ?Relational databases? We call those ?legacy?.? ] > > > > > > > > > Am 26.07.2009 um 01:42 schrieb Andrew Leer: > >> >> >> ? I was wondering if there was yet a Microformat for a business's hours of operation. ?If not, I would like to suggest the discussion of creating one. ?I am already aware that there is a MF for events (hCalendar) and perhaps it could be an extension of this so that it could still be read as an hCalendar MF, but that it would have some sort of information linking it to an hCard. >> >> ? It seems to me that the hours of business would be useful when combined with the location of a location-required business like a coffeeshop or eatery. >> >> ? In visiting the website a user could eventually send their location (either by entering it or via location-based-browsing) and based on the estimated time of arrival, the website could tell them if they have enough time to reach the location of the establishment before it closes. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> ? ?Andrew J. Leer >> >> ? ?http://www.twitter.com/leeand00/ >> ? ?http://leeand00.tiddlyspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From jonathan.malek at gmail.com Thu Jul 30 12:45:49 2009 From: jonathan.malek at gmail.com (Jonathan Malek) Date: Thu Jul 30 12:45:59 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: <21e523c20907100652o7424413apfe0b688d78ba3af@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> <21e523c20907100652o7424413apfe0b688d78ba3af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 6:52 AM, David Janes wrote: > It's an overlay on hAtom, note the example. hentry entry-content, > though they seem to have invented duplicates, like "dateline" David, excuse the long delay in response as I was on vacation for the last 3 weeks. Just a quick note on duplicates: "dateline" is a special term in the news industry that describes where and when the story was filed (more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline). It has a geo component to it, and is not meant to be either the created or updated dtstamp (which we reused from Atom). You're right--we inherit from hAtom. After reading David James' post on issues with hSlice: http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ The rationale seemed pretty solid, and the benefits significant. I hope our "In General" section sums it up to some degree: http://labs.ap.org/wiki/hNews#In_General Our intent was to get silly errors cleaned up, then take this to the uf community for further comment. We've reused as much of the format, structure and template names as we could to facilitate the move. Regards, Jonathan From jonathan.malek at gmail.com Thu Jul 30 13:46:19 2009 From: jonathan.malek at gmail.com (Jonathan Malek) Date: Thu Jul 30 13:46:22 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> <21e523c20907100652o7424413apfe0b688d78ba3af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > You're right--we inherit from hAtom. ?After reading David James' post > on issues with hSlice: > > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ Ugh...chalk it up to 3 weeks of vacation. David, I would guess you remember your own post :) And forgive the typo of your name. From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jul 31 05:03:16 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jul 31 05:03:41 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat? In-Reply-To: References: <21e770780907100518j6a257102hddf4d26298146ae4@mail.gmail.com> <4A573E5B.3030101@weborganics.co.uk> <21e523c20907100652o7424413apfe0b688d78ba3af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20907310503k735a0affl628a7e3592d98fda@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Jonathan Malek wrote: > > > You're right--we inherit from hAtom. ?After reading David James' post > > on issues with hSlice: > > > > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2008-03-05-0000/ > > Ugh...chalk it up to 3 weeks of vacation. ?David, I would guess you > remember your own post :) ?And forgive the typo of your name. > LOL there's days I can't remember my middle name ;-)