From thomas at stray.net Wed Jun 29 02:55:20 2011 From: thomas at stray.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?thomas_l=F6rtsch?=) Date: Wed Jun 29 02:55:29 2011 Subject: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe Message-ID: <13E37CA0-B2FF-43FA-A66D-B5ABCA85EEB1@stray.net> Hi all, I don't want to discuss the schema.org effort in general here, although there surely is a lot to discuss about it. My question is how collaboration between Google.com and microformats.org is organized, where it's taking place, who is involved. I'm sure there is and has always been some informal exchange, since people happen to know each other, meet at confernces or other events etc, and of course that's fine with me. I was wondering though when I read the following statement in a transcript of the Schema.org BOF at SemTech 2011 : > [...] > Kevin Marks: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the difference in phsilophy > Tantek ?elik: Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly. > [...] > Kevin Marks: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this. > [...] This sounds like quite some conversations, discussions and thorough work. Now I wonder: how specifically did that "great" and "successfull" work "with the open community" go? Where did it take place? Who was involved? And what exactly was worked out? I won't hesitate to admit that I wasn't a very good editor of hRecipe since summer 2009 but I still am the editor as indicated on the hRecipe wikipage. I wasn't contacted by anyone regarding Rich Snippets, Schema.org or any other Google activity. Also I couldn't find any mention on the mailinglists or on the wiki. So, please: what's going on, what did I miss? Or how is this "open"? Since Schema.org now promotes a recipe vocabulary that is slightly different from hRecipe and also more elaborated I would like to discuss what to do about that: maybe analyze the differences, observe uptake, then align hRecipe where appropriate etc. But before I start to work on that I'd like to understand what happened until now. Cheers, Thomas L?rtsch ?|? < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all /> ^^^ From derrick at pallas.us Wed Jun 29 07:33:52 2011 From: derrick at pallas.us (Derrick Pallas) Date: Wed Jun 29 07:33:56 2011 Subject: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe In-Reply-To: <13E37CA0-B2FF-43FA-A66D-B5ABCA85EEB1@stray.net> References: <13E37CA0-B2FF-43FA-A66D-B5ABCA85EEB1@stray.net> Message-ID: <4E0B37D0.8070504@pallas.us> Notice that they have an itemscope in HTML5, something many people talked about on microformats.org for years. A few years ago it was brought up on a regular basis by newcomers, about twice a year; said newcomers were then driven out of the community. So there was discussion, just not very nice nor very productive. When I worked for Alexa, I had actual parsing uses-cases for such a feature as well as publishing use-cases and I was one of those newcomers, not the first and not the last. Not everyone tried to follow the process but I did, to the same end. After everything, the elitism of uf.org turned me off to the whole effort. That's not to say uf.org isn't full of nice, intelligent people ? it is ? just that I decided not to waste my time trying to be in the cabal. And this email is not intended to beat a dead horse, just to share my own experiences. ~D On 6/29/2011 2:55 AM, thomas l?rtsch wrote: > Hi all, > > I don't want to discuss the schema.org effort in general here, although there surely is a lot to discuss about it. My question is how collaboration between Google.com and microformats.org is organized, where it's taking place, who is involved. I'm sure there is and has always been some informal exchange, since people happen to know each other, meet at confernces or other events etc, and of course that's fine with me. I was wondering though when I read the following statement in a transcript of the Schema.org BOF at SemTech 2011: > >> [...] >> Kevin Marks: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the difference in phsilophy >> Tantek ?elik: Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly. >> [...] >> Kevin Marks: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this. >> [...] > > This sounds like quite some conversations, discussions and thorough work. Now I wonder: how specifically did that "great" and "successfull" work "with the open community" go? Where did it take place? Who was involved? And what exactly was worked out? > I won't hesitate to admit that I wasn't a very good editor of hRecipe since summer 2009 but I still am the editor as indicated on the hRecipe wikipage. I wasn't contacted by anyone regarding Rich Snippets, Schema.org or any other Google activity. Also I couldn't find any mention on the mailinglists or on the wiki. So, please: what's going on, what did I miss? Or how is this "open"? > > Since Schema.org now promotes a recipe vocabulary that is slightly different from hRecipe and also more elaborated I would like to discuss what to do about that: maybe analyze the differences, observe uptake, then align hRecipe where appropriate etc. But before I start to work on that I'd like to understand what happened until now. > > Cheers, > Thomas L?rtsch > > > > ?|?< in pursuit of the gestalt of it all /> > ^^^ > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From singpolyma at singpolyma.net Wed Jun 29 08:05:39 2011 From: singpolyma at singpolyma.net (Stephen Paul Weber) Date: Wed Jun 29 08:05:44 2011 Subject: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe In-Reply-To: <4E0B37D0.8070504@pallas.us> References: <13E37CA0-B2FF-43FA-A66D-B5ABCA85EEB1@stray.net> <4E0B37D0.8070504@pallas.us> Message-ID: <20110629150539.GB23527@singpolyma.net> Somebody claiming to be Derrick Pallas wrote: >Notice that they have an itemscope in HTML5, something many people >talked about on microformats.org for years. A few years ago it was >brought up on a regular basis by newcomers, about twice a year; said >newcomers were then driven out of the community. You still seem to be here :) I remember the itemscope thing coming up. Consensus seemed to be that is solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget. I assume that people created wiki pages documenting this? If not, why not? Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just facilitate the wiki. IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's just a discussion. Anyway :) -- Stephen Paul Weber, @singpolyma See for how I prefer to be contacted edition right joseph From thomas at stray.net Thu Jun 30 07:24:40 2011 From: thomas at stray.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?thomas_l=F6rtsch?=) Date: Thu Jun 30 07:24:48 2011 Subject: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe In-Reply-To: <20110629150539.GB23527@singpolyma.net> References: <13E37CA0-B2FF-43FA-A66D-B5ABCA85EEB1@stray.net> <4E0B37D0.8070504@pallas.us> <20110629150539.GB23527@singpolyma.net> Message-ID: On Jun 29, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: > > I remember the itemscope thing coming up. Consensus seemed to be that is solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget. I assume that people created wiki pages documenting this? If not, why not? Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just facilitate the wiki. IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's just a discussion. Well, "just a discussion" wouldn't be a bad start. Or do you suggest that I open a wiki page on my question? Thomas ?|? < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all /> ^^^ From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Thu Jun 30 11:51:13 2011 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?utf-8?B?VGFudGVrIMOHZWxpaw==?=) Date: Thu Jun 30 11:51:24 2011 Subject: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe In-Reply-To: References: <13E37CA0-B2FF-43FA-A66D-B5ABCA85EEB1@stray.net><4E0B37D0.8070504@pallas.us><20110629150539.GB23527@singpolyma.net> Message-ID: <156283052-1309459877-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2128956243-@b27.c18.bise6.blackberry> The point is to capture specific issues rather than have a "discussion" - a discussion where nothing is recorded on the wiki is nearly worthless and may as well have not happened. If it doesn't get captured on a discoverable URL, it might as well not exist (and no, email archives are NOT discoverable). I don't remember anyone asking for anything like itemscope in microformats. This list or IRC (preferably) is a good place to start with questions, but if there is an answer it should be captured by the author in an FAQ either specific to a microformat *-faq page, or in general on: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq If there is a specific known issue to report for a specific microformat, add it to the *-issues page for that microformat. If there is a specific known issue that applies to several microformats (eg class microformats) add it to: http://microformats.org/wiki/issues The goal is to *minimize* thrash / going in circles on email (a common problem in standards related communities), and instead to capture and grow our collective knowledge and understanding on the wiki. Thanks, Tantek -----Original Message----- From: thomas l?rtsch Sender: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:24:40 To: Microformats Discuss Reply-To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe On Jun 29, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: > > I remember the itemscope thing coming up. Consensus seemed to be that is solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget. I assume that people created wiki pages documenting this? If not, why not? Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just facilitate the wiki. IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's just a discussion. Well, "just a discussion" wouldn't be a bad start. Or do you suggest that I open a wiki page on my question? Thomas ?|? < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all /> ^^^ _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Thu Jun 30 12:00:18 2011 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?utf-8?B?VGFudGVrIMOHZWxpaw==?=) Date: Thu Jun 30 12:00:32 2011 Subject: Document your work discoverably on the web or don't bother. Was Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe In-Reply-To: <4E0B37D0.8070504@pallas.us> References: <13E37CA0-B2FF-43FA-A66D-B5ABCA85EEB1@stray.net><4E0B37D0.8070504@pallas.us> Message-ID: <161634121-1309460423-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1003028288-@b27.c18.bise6.blackberry> Derrick, If something was "brought up on a regular basis by newcomers", provide the URLs, otherwise we are right to dismiss your assertion. No one was "driven out". We've had to ban a few trolls for negative behaviors for fixed periods of time, but haven't had to do any such thing for over a year (maybe 2) now. If you had "actual parsing uses-cases for such a feature as well as publishing use-cases", at what URL did you document them? If you consider requiring documentation on the web/wiki and being rigorous as "elitism of uf.org" then, yes, you're not going to be very productive. And you're right, developing microformats is not for everyone - only those that are willing to document their work and be scientific in their methods. If you consider "science" to be a cabal, then you're not going to find much sympathy and should take your name-calling elsewhere. Document your work on discoverable URLs (preferably on the wiki) or don't bother complaining. Tantek -----Original Message----- From: Derrick Pallas Sender: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 07:33:52 To: Microformats Discuss Reply-To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe Notice that they have an itemscope in HTML5, something many people talked about on microformats.org for years. A few years ago it was brought up on a regular basis by newcomers, about twice a year; said newcomers were then driven out of the community. So there was discussion, just not very nice nor very productive. When I worked for Alexa, I had actual parsing uses-cases for such a feature as well as publishing use-cases and I was one of those newcomers, not the first and not the last. Not everyone tried to follow the process but I did, to the same end. After everything, the elitism of uf.org turned me off to the whole effort. That's not to say uf.org isn't full of nice, intelligent people ? it is ? just that I decided not to waste my time trying to be in the cabal. And this email is not intended to beat a dead horse, just to share my own experiences. ~D On 6/29/2011 2:55 AM, thomas l?rtsch wrote: > Hi all, > > I don't want to discuss the schema.org effort in general here, although there surely is a lot to discuss about it. My question is how collaboration between Google.com and microformats.org is organized, where it's taking place, who is involved. I'm sure there is and has always been some informal exchange, since people happen to know each other, meet at confernces or other events etc, and of course that's fine with me. I was wondering though when I read the following statement in a transcript of the Schema.org BOF at SemTech 2011: > >> [...] >> Kevin Marks: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the difference in phsilophy >> Tantek ?elik: Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly. >> [...] >> Kevin Marks: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this. >> [...] > > This sounds like quite some conversations, discussions and thorough work. Now I wonder: how specifically did that "great" and "successfull" work "with the open community" go? Where did it take place? Who was involved? And what exactly was worked out? > I won't hesitate to admit that I wasn't a very good editor of hRecipe since summer 2009 but I still am the editor as indicated on the hRecipe wikipage. I wasn't contacted by anyone regarding Rich Snippets, Schema.org or any other Google activity. Also I couldn't find any mention on the mailinglists or on the wiki. So, please: what's going on, what did I miss? Or how is this "open"? > > Since Schema.org now promotes a recipe vocabulary that is slightly different from hRecipe and also more elaborated I would like to discuss what to do about that: maybe analyze the differences, observe uptake, then align hRecipe where appropriate etc. But before I start to work on that I'd like to understand what happened until now. > > Cheers, > Thomas L?rtsch > > > > ?|?< in pursuit of the gestalt of it all /> > ^^^ > > >_______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss