[uf-new] Revisiting grouping problem solution proposal: hset

Martin McEvoy martin at weborganics.co.uk
Tue May 15 12:14:17 PDT 2007

On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 00:57 -0400, Manu Sporny wrote:
> After collecting even more grouping examples and performing analysis on
> those examples, it is quite evident that we need to support ordered,
> unordered, sparse and non-sparse grouping. There are several options
> that have been gathered over the past month, listed on the
> grouping-brainstorming page:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/grouping-brainstorming
> Option #3 seems to have the least number of things working against it.
> The major argument has been made against Option #3 is that it is a
> "namespace" approach to ordering. Some have cited the following page for
> reference:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces
> After pouring over the links on the namespaces page, it seems to be an
> invalid argument. Namespaces deal with global data markup. Grouping
> option #3 (and variants) deal with local identification and grouping.
> These are two completely separate solutions to two completely separate
> problems.
> Namespacing is a problem because it requires that all entities marking
> up data agree on a GLOBAL name space and element names. The proposal put
> forth in option #3 does not require that any entities agree on a global
> name space. Element names do not need to be agreed upon either. Option
> #3 is purely an identification mechanism.
> I am retracting my support for Option #5 and suggesting that we go with
> Option #3:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/grouping-brainstorming#Option_3:_Explicit_class-based_grouping
> Martin, the hAudio test page that you have up is great. Could we try
> looking at it using Option #3 as the group markup example? After using
> the method that you currently have active on your page, I can't help but
> feel that it isn't quite what we want. There is a reason you had to add
> CSS to make the tabbing work correctly - you were using XHTML markup
> methods that shouldn't be used to imply grouping.

Sounds trivial but I have to ask, if the method you have proposed is
just for identification then why use "." as a separator when you know
what you intend will meet disapproval from many users and developers of
Microformats, particularly when one of the first things you will ever
read about mF is...

"simple conventions for embedding semantic markup"


"using brief, descriptive class names"


"hSet" does not fit into any of these...

Later you may read...

"namespaces for content are considered harmful"


"If you want to carry on a theoretical discussion of namespaces, please
do so elsewhere, for in practice, discussing them is a waste of time,
and off-topic for microformats lists."


I don't think grouping is an issue for hAudio, or hVideo and hImage, as
I believe this feature firmly belongs with hMedia the container or
transport for any media related mF's

I believe hAudio and any descendants should more resemble a vCard that
can be sprinkled in to hMedia or any other mF's for that matter.

Anyway having said all that I have relented why not, as no one manged to
come up with a suitable alternative to work with, so lets "suck it and

The hAudio test page has been updated with all your proposals.


-- Martin.

> So, will this work for grouping:
> - Groups/Collections are identified with the following: hset
> - Hierarchial ordering is performed by doing: hset.NAME
> - Ordered grouping is performed by using xoxo
> Here is an example:
> hvideo hset.kbv1
>   hvideo.title = Kill Bill Volume 1
>   hvideo.collaborator = Quentin Tarantino (role=writer) [hCard]
>   hvideo.collaborator = Uma Thurman (role=writer,role=actress) [hCard]
>   hvideo.collaborator = Lawrence Bender	(role=producer) [hCard]
>   ...
>   haudio hset.kbv1.i_walk_like_jayne_mansfield
>      haudio.title = I Walk Like Jayne Mansfield
>      haudio.collaborator = The's (role=band) [hCard]
>   haudio hset.kbv1.im_blue
>      haudio.title = I'm Blue
>      haudio.collaborator = The's (role=band) [hCard]
>   haudio hset.kbv1.woo_hoo
>      haudio.title = Woo Hoo
>      haudio.collaborator = The's (role=band) [hCard]
>   ...
>   himage hset.kbv1.cover_image
>      himage.title = Kill Bill Volume 1 DVD Cover Image (UK Release)
> -- manu
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-new mailing list
> microformats-new at microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
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