[uf-new] Revisiting grouping problem solution proposal: hset

[Martin McEvoy]

Hello Chris, thanks for your proposal

On Sat, 2007-05-19 at 14:50 -0500, Chris Griego wrote:
> Thanks Manu.
> 
> I think the purpose of hSet can be achieved with a much simpler
> approach, nearly simplifying the entire schema of the format to just
> the 'hset' class name by leveraging conventions. I think my suggestion
> lies somewhere between the existing Option #3 and #4. Since I haven't
> kept up all that well with the hAudio progress, forgive me while I use
> hCalendar as an example. Say you have a chronological list of events
> that you want to relate with one of two calendars, making the
> individual calendars a sparse grouping.
> 
> Before microformats:
> 
> <h1>Internal and With-Client Events</h1>
> <ol>
>  <li>FOO Sales Pitch [...]</li>
>  <li>Company Picnic [...]</li>
>  <li>BAR Photo Shoot [...]</li>
> </ol>
> 
> With microformats (today this would be parsed as a 3 calendars, 2
> without any events):
> 
> <h1><span class="vcalendar">Internal</span> and <span
> class="vcalendar">With-Client</span> Events</h1>
> <ol>
>  <li class="vevent"><span class="summary">FOO Sales Pitch</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="vevent"><span class="summary">Company Picnic</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="vevent"><span class="summary">BAR Photo Shoot</span> [...]</li>
> </ol>
> 
> With my proposal for hSet:
> 
> <h1><span id="internal-event" class="hset vcalendar">Internal</span>
> and <span id="with-client-event" class="hset
> vcalendar">With-Client</span> Events</h1>
> <ol>
>  <li class="with-client-event vevent"><span class="summary">FOO Sales
> Pitch</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="internal-event vevent"><span class="summary">Company
> Picnic</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="with-client-event vevent"><span class="summary">BAR Photo
> Shoot</span> [...]</li>
> </ol>
> 
> Using the hset class names attaches special meaning to the element's
> ID value, marking it as the machine-readable group name, and then any
> other element in the document with a class name that matches the ID
> should be considered a set member. The class attribute is a natural
> grouping mechanism, by simply marking contacts across the internet
> with 'vcard' we've grouped them in the category of contact
> information.
> 
> I know that earlier in this discussion I've warned against using the
> ID attribute since microformats should be low-impact for
> implementation into existing content; but I feel this usage still
> holds true to that principle since it can work well with existing IDs.
> IDs are currently used as a part of the include-pattern, and I see
> hSet's role as an alternative (not replacement) to the include-pattern
> that reverses the declaration where the children declare their parent
> instead of the parent declaring its children.
> 

To give you some pointers, what we are trying to do, is cram all the
information needed about our grouping into one class, the key reasons
for this are:

* Groups and Members can be associated with one another without needing
to be hierarchically grouped, network relationships are often not
hierarchical
* The structure of the page should not affect grouping.

http://microformats.org/wiki/grouping-brainstorming#Purpose

To use your example if I syndicated, shared, downloaded one of your
events, I would not know If this was a collection item or not

class="with-client-event vevent"

I know that this is with a client but what am I doing? and Is this part
of a group? I will only understand its true meaning when its grouped on
a page.

The current hset proposal would say

class="hset with-client-event.FOO_Sales_Pitch"

the whole class declares that its a grouping, a client event and its
sales pitch about foo, 
* it doesn't need to be hierarchically grouped or even on the same page
* its easy to markup no id issues.
* It can be sparsely grouped 

why do I feel your proposal has issues?
It relies on the child to be grouped together with the parent for it to
have any meaning. 
If you had Many ID's on a single page all attaching their special
meaning, do you think this may cause some problems for browsers or
phraser? 

I know that Both Manu and I would both like a proposal like yours, but
truthfully it doesn't quite fit our problem.

-Martin McEvoy-
 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 2171 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/attachments/20070522/e3340d5a/smime-0001.bin