[uf-new] Revisiting grouping problem solution proposal: hset

Martin McEvoy martin at weborganics.co.uk
Mon May 21 16:20:13 PDT 2007

Hello Chris, thanks for your proposal

On Sat, 2007-05-19 at 14:50 -0500, Chris Griego wrote:
> Thanks Manu.
> I think the purpose of hSet can be achieved with a much simpler
> approach, nearly simplifying the entire schema of the format to just
> the 'hset' class name by leveraging conventions. I think my suggestion
> lies somewhere between the existing Option #3 and #4. Since I haven't
> kept up all that well with the hAudio progress, forgive me while I use
> hCalendar as an example. Say you have a chronological list of events
> that you want to relate with one of two calendars, making the
> individual calendars a sparse grouping.
> Before microformats:
> <h1>Internal and With-Client Events</h1>
> <ol>
>  <li>FOO Sales Pitch [...]</li>
>  <li>Company Picnic [...]</li>
>  <li>BAR Photo Shoot [...]</li>
> </ol>
> With microformats (today this would be parsed as a 3 calendars, 2
> without any events):
> <h1><span class="vcalendar">Internal</span> and <span
> class="vcalendar">With-Client</span> Events</h1>
> <ol>
>  <li class="vevent"><span class="summary">FOO Sales Pitch</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="vevent"><span class="summary">Company Picnic</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="vevent"><span class="summary">BAR Photo Shoot</span> [...]</li>
> </ol>
> With my proposal for hSet:
> <h1><span id="internal-event" class="hset vcalendar">Internal</span>
> and <span id="with-client-event" class="hset
> vcalendar">With-Client</span> Events</h1>
> <ol>
>  <li class="with-client-event vevent"><span class="summary">FOO Sales
> Pitch</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="internal-event vevent"><span class="summary">Company
> Picnic</span> [...]</li>
>  <li class="with-client-event vevent"><span class="summary">BAR Photo
> Shoot</span> [...]</li>
> </ol>
> Using the hset class names attaches special meaning to the element's
> ID value, marking it as the machine-readable group name, and then any
> other element in the document with a class name that matches the ID
> should be considered a set member. The class attribute is a natural
> grouping mechanism, by simply marking contacts across the internet
> with 'vcard' we've grouped them in the category of contact
> information.
> I know that earlier in this discussion I've warned against using the
> ID attribute since microformats should be low-impact for
> implementation into existing content; but I feel this usage still
> holds true to that principle since it can work well with existing IDs.
> IDs are currently used as a part of the include-pattern, and I see
> hSet's role as an alternative (not replacement) to the include-pattern
> that reverses the declaration where the children declare their parent
> instead of the parent declaring its children.

To give you some pointers, what we are trying to do, is cram all the
information needed about our grouping into one class, the key reasons
for this are:

* Groups and Members can be associated with one another without needing
to be hierarchically grouped, network relationships are often not
* The structure of the page should not affect grouping.


To use your example if I syndicated, shared, downloaded one of your
events, I would not know If this was a collection item or not

class="with-client-event vevent"

I know that this is with a client but what am I doing? and Is this part
of a group? I will only understand its true meaning when its grouped on
a page.

The current hset proposal would say

class="hset with-client-event.FOO_Sales_Pitch"

the whole class declares that its a grouping, a client event and its
sales pitch about foo, 
* it doesn't need to be hierarchically grouped or even on the same page
* its easy to markup no id issues.
* It can be sparsely grouped 

why do I feel your proposal has issues?
It relies on the child to be grouped together with the parent for it to
have any meaning. 
If you had Many ID's on a single page all attaching their special
meaning, do you think this may cause some problems for browsers or

I know that Both Manu and I would both like a proposal like yours, but
truthfully it doesn't quite fit our problem.

-Martin McEvoy-
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