[uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album

[Martin McEvoy]

On Sat, 2007-10-13 at 11:06 +0100, Julian Stahnke wrote:
> > Hello Scott I have been thinking recently that it is perhaps best  
> > to use
> > something that everyone is familiar with *FN* but I thought that it
> > would be simpler just to use *track* to imply type and title I also
> > don't think it is best practice to embed haudios *inside* haudio, I
> > think of it like a hfeed element in hAtom or the Channel element in  
> > RSS,
> > also would you embed hfeed's inside other hfeed's?
> >
> > David Janes made some good proposal back in November about a hTing uF
> >
> > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- 
> > November/007139.html
> >
> > which eventually turned into a hItem design pattern/uF proposed by  
> > Andy
> > Mabbett
> >
> > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006- 
> > November/007281.html
> >
> > there is a brainstorm about the hItem uf/item design pattern
> >
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/items-brainstorming
> >
> >
> > So I thought simple solution
> >
> > <div class="haudio">
> > 	<span class="album">Best Before 1984</span>
> > 	<span class="contributor">Crass</span>
> >     <div class="item">
> >         <span class="track">Nagasaki Nightmare</span>
> > 	<abbr class="duration" title="P268T">4:46</abbr>
> >     </div>
> >     <div class="item">
> >         <span class="track">Big A, Little A </span>
> >         <abbr class="duration" title="P368T"> 6:13</abbr>
> >     </div>
> >   </div>
> > </div>
> >
> > Elegant I would say?
> >
> > It solves the problem of do we use FN audio-title, whatever...
> > We have established that we cant use FN because want to describe
> > something MORE specific
> >
> > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-May/ 
> > 000355.html
> > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-May/ 
> > 000357.html
> 
> I understand Tantek’s position to be in favour of using ‘fn’ and  
> against inventing a new property. Also, I talked to him a couple of  
> days ago and he made that point again. I myself kinda thought fn was  
> more or less specific to people and meant ‘full name’ instead of  
> ‘formatted name’.[1] Shame on me.

:) its a common misconception there is no shame in that.

 Many of us on the list agree with Tantek (including Me) that we SHOULD
use FN, the trouble is Some on the list want to use *Track* and
*audio-title* or *recording* because they believe the properties we are
trying to describe SHOULD mean something specific, which I tend to
disagree with, as the way I have proposed hAudio, *Item*  contained
within hAudio is a *track* 

None of my proposal are set in stone just yet we are just talking about
the possibilities...

> Specific to the hAudio microformat, I’d still love to use audio-title  
> and album-title or similar names as they make for mark-up that is  
> wonderfully readable by anyone. 

So would I but these Issues are not sitting well with any of the
community because I believe they are not staying within the "principles"
of creating a new microformat 

To "reuse building blocks from widely adopted standards: 
      * semantic (http://tantek.com/presentations/20040928sdforumws/semantic-xhtml.html), meaningful (X)HTML (http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml), i.e. POSH. See SemanticXHTMLDesignPrinciples for more details. 
      * existing microformats"

http://microformats.org/wiki/principles#summary_of_key_principles

I shouldn't have to quote that should I?
 
> Yet, in the greater scheme of things,  
> I guess it’s better to be pragmatic and re-use as many properties  
> from other microformats as possible. He really has a point there.
> 

He does a very good one...

> > And also we dont need to use either FN or audio-title because
> > track I understand has to have the exact semantic value as album
> > The example above shows how to clearly define both track and album
> 
> In the example above, I’d use fn in the item instead of track.
> 
> Anyhow, I’m more in favour of Scott’s approach. I wonder though if we  
> could maybe use item instead of track somehow, as it is used in other  
> microformats already (mentioned here: http://microformats.org/wiki/ 
> item#3._As_a_composite). Works great for
> 
> Album with a couple of tracks, more detailed:
> <span class="haudio">
>       <span class="fn album">Best Before 1984</span>
>       <span class="contributor">Crass</span>
>       <span class="item haudio"><span class="fn">Nagasaki Nightmare</
> span> – <abbr class="duration" title="P268T">4:46</abbr></span>
>       <span class="item haudio"><span class="fn">Nagasaki Nightmare</
> span> – <abbr class="duration" title="P268T">4:46</abbr></span>
>       <span class="item haudio"><span class="fn">Nagasaki Nightmare</
> span> – <abbr class="duration" title="P268T">4:46</abbr></span>
> </span>

works for me too but without the haudio on every item, 

type in this case..

[snip]

<span class="haudio">
     <span class="album">Best Before 1984</span>
     <span class="contributor">Crass</span>
     <span class="item"><span class="fn">Nagasaki Nightmare</ 
span> – <abbr class="duration" title="P268T">4:46</abbr></span>
     <span class="item"><span class="fn">Nagasaki Nightmare</ 
span> – <abbr class="duration" title="P268T">4:46</abbr></span>
     <span class="item"><span class="fn">Nagasaki Nightmare</ 
span> – <abbr class="duration" title="P268T">4:46</abbr></span>
</span>

[/snip]

.. Is inherited from the parent class hAudio


> 
> The problem with that obviously is the missing possibility of the  
> ‘album with a couple of tracks, simple example’ variant:
> 
> <span class="haudio">
>       <span class="fn album">Best Before 1984</span>
>       <span class="contributor">Crass</span>
>       <span class="item">Nagasaki Nightmare</span>
>       <span class="item">Nagasaki Nightmare</span>
>       <span class="item">Nagasaki Nightmare</span>
> </span>
> 
> That looks a bit wrong. The question really is if we need this. I’d  
> very much like to have that possibility. Maybe someone has an idea  
> about how to deal with it?
> 
> [1] That’s mentioned neither in the cheatsheet nor on the main hcard  
> page nor on the singular properties page. Found it in the FAQ,  
> eventually. I think it should be mentioned in the explanation of the  
> property as well, though. Anyone opposed to adding it there: http:// 
> microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties#fn ?

Thanks

Martin