From sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 14:55:42 2010 From: sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com (Sunburned Surveyor) Date: Wed Jul 7 14:55:46 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. Message-ID: I'm a rookie web developer and still quite new at trying to understand and use microformats on my own web site. I've been poking aroung the Microformats web site and wiki looking for a microformat for magazine articles posted online. I haven't been able to find anything. I'd like to ask if there has been any work or discussion on a microformat for this purpose. It may be that a magazine article is to general of a concept for a microformat, but some possible standard elements seemed to pop into my mind, like title, publication date, abstract, author, publication, and magazine issue. Perhaps an XHTML compound would be more appropriate than a microformat? I bumped into the term XHTML compound on the process wiki page, but I'm not extremely clear on how it differs from a microformat. At any rate, I wanted to bounce this topic by the mailing list to see if I was missing any previous work done in this area. I'd like to know if this concept has been explored, discarded as a bad idea, or if there is current work being done that I might help with. Thanks, The Sunburned Surveyor From sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 14:58:13 2010 From: sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com (Sunburned Surveyor) Date: Wed Jul 7 14:58:17 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Source Code Examples Message-ID: I found on the wiki a page for a proposed source code examples format listed in the "inactive" section of the exploratory wiki page: http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples I'm interested in working on this microformats proposal and I was wondering if there had been any recent activity on it. I'd also like to ask if there are suggestions on how I might pick-up this ball and start running with it. Thanks, The Sunburned Surveyor From mark at markng.me.uk Wed Jul 7 14:59:42 2010 From: mark at markng.me.uk (Mark Ng) Date: Wed Jul 7 14:59:46 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hnews and hatom are the most obvious formats for you to look at. The only thing that's not in hnews for this is magazine issue. Mark On 7 July 2010 14:55, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: > I'm a rookie web developer and still quite new at trying to understand > and use microformats on my own web site. I've been poking aroung the > Microformats web site and wiki looking for a microformat for magazine > articles posted online. I haven't been able to find anything. I'd like > to ask if there has been any work or discussion on a microformat for > this purpose. It may be that a magazine article is to general of a > concept for a microformat, but some possible standard elements seemed > to pop into my mind, like title, publication date, abstract, author, > publication, and magazine issue. From info at csarven.ca Wed Jul 7 15:27:51 2010 From: info at csarven.ca (Sarven Capadisli) Date: Wed Jul 7 15:28:08 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1278541671.1603.28.camel@csarven-netbook> On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 14:55 -0700, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: > I'm a rookie web developer and still quite new at trying to understand > and use microformats on my own web site. I've been poking aroung the > Microformats web site and wiki looking for a microformat for magazine > articles posted online. I haven't been able to find anything. I'd like > to ask if there has been any work or discussion on a microformat for > this purpose. It may be that a magazine article is to general of a > concept for a microformat, but some possible standard elements seemed > to pop into my mind, like title, publication date, abstract, author, > publication, and magazine issue. > > Perhaps an XHTML compound would be more appropriate than a > microformat? I bumped into the term XHTML compound on the process wiki > page, but I'm not extremely clear on how it differs from a > microformat. > > At any rate, I wanted to bounce this topic by the mailing list to see > if I was missing any previous work done in this area. I'd like to know > if this concept has been explored, discarded as a bad idea, or if > there is current work being done that I might help with. > > Thanks, > > The Sunburned Surveyor What type of a site would you consider to be a Web magazine? How would the editorial content be different than any other form of online publication? Consider blogs posts, news (newspaper, tv, magazine..), I think hAtom and the hNews extension (both are considered to be drafts, but hAtom is fairly mature IMO) would get you majority of the way. On top of that general representation for some publication, there are other possibilities, and that would depend on the article itself. If the article is an opinion or a review piece, hReview would be a good candidate along with hAtom. Use hCard for the article author, and datetime design (or value class) pattern for publication date - both are reused in hAtom. If you use Atom or RSS for some publication, you can simply use hAtom for them too. You might want to take a glance at one of the magazine sites I've worked in the past: http://more.ca/ (has hAtom and hReview where appropriate). -Sarven From sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 15:36:31 2010 From: sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com (Sunburned Surveyor) Date: Wed Jul 7 15:36:35 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: <1278541671.1603.28.camel@csarven-netbook> References: <1278541671.1603.28.camel@csarven-netbook> Message-ID: Mark and Sarven: Thank you for the quick responses. I will respond to each of you below. Mark wrote: "hnews and hatom are the most obvious formats for you to look at. The only thing that's not in hnews for this is magazine issue." I'll take a look at both formats. Perhaps I can use hnews with a slight tweak to include magazine issue. Sarven wrote: "What type of a site would you consider to be a Web magazine? How would the editorial content be different than any other form of online publication?" In my case I have a magazine that is actually published in PDF format in quarterly issues. I'm trying to come up with the best method of publishing each of the magazine articles online in HTML format. Rather than having a "dumb" web page for each article, I thought I would try to use a more specific format for this type of content. I suppose I envision a search tool that would allow you to search for articles by magazine, magazine issue, or even article series. Both you and Mark recommended I look at hAtom and hNews. I will do that. Thank you again for the suggestions. Landon P.S. - I didn't see a specific mailing list to discuss development of tools for the indexing and searching microformat content. Do you have any suggestions on the best place for this type of discussion? From mark at markng.me.uk Wed Jul 7 16:15:21 2010 From: mark at markng.me.uk (Mark Ng) Date: Wed Jul 7 16:21:03 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: References: <1278541671.1603.28.camel@csarven-netbook> Message-ID: On 7 July 2010 15:36, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: > > I'll take a look at both formats. Perhaps I can use hnews with a > slight tweak to include magazine issue. I'd encourage you to use hnews and hatom issues and brainstorming pages on the wiki to document your ideas regarding this, too. From sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 16:50:35 2010 From: sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com (Sunburned Surveyor) Date: Wed Jul 7 16:50:40 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: References: <1278541671.1603.28.camel@csarven-netbook> Message-ID: Thank you Mark. I will get signed up for the wiki so I can add comments. I printed out the hnews example and will study it tonight. I appreciate the help and suggestions. Landon On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Mark Ng wrote: > On 7 July 2010 15:36, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: >> >> I'll take a look at both formats. Perhaps I can use hnews with a >> slight tweak to include magazine issue. > > I'd encourage you to use hnews and hatom issues and brainstorming > pages on the wiki to document your ideas regarding this, too. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new > From andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk Thu Jul 8 00:36:37 2010 From: andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk (Andy Mabbett) Date: Thu Jul 8 00:36:42 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, July 7, 2010 22:55, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: > I've been poking aroung the > Microformats web site and wiki looking for a microformat for magazine > articles posted online. I haven't been able to find anything. I'd like > to ask if there has been any work or discussion on a microformat for > this purpose. See: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation and: http://ocoins.info/ (the latter not a microformat, but still useful). -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk From fberriman at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 04:58:25 2010 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Thu Jul 8 04:58:59 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Source Code Examples In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, uh.. Sunburned! Welcome. :) On 7 July 2010 22:58, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: > I found on the wiki a page for a proposed source code examples format > listed in the "inactive" section of the exploratory wiki page: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples > > I'm interested in working on this microformats proposal and I was > wondering if there had been any recent activity on it. I'd also like > to ask if there are suggestions on how I might pick-up this ball and > start running with it. Yep - that's cool. Couple things I'd recommend doing for a starter: * Drop Anders (current editor) an email and nudge him to see if he is still interested in working on the proposal/research with you. Just seems like the polite thing to do. * Fill out a page on research. Gather as many in-the-wild examples of marked-up code examples as you can (i.e. 'Document current behaviour'). We vaguely call coming up with a new microformats specification 'The Process' and you can find the steps here: http://microformats.org/wiki/process Any more questions, just let us know! Frances From sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 08:04:54 2010 From: sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com (Sunburned Surveyor) Date: Thu Jul 8 08:05:01 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy, Citations is definitely something I will need, and I was thinking about how I would handle it last night. I will take a look at both links that you sent me. Thanks, Landon On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 12:36 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > On Wed, July 7, 2010 22:55, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: >> I've been poking aroung the >> Microformats web site and wiki looking for a microformat for magazine >> articles posted online. I haven't been able to find anything. I'd like >> to ask if there has been any work or discussion on a microformat for >> this purpose. > > > See: > > ? http://microformats.org/wiki/citation > > and: > > ? http://ocoins.info/ > > (the latter not a microformat, but still useful). > > -- > Andy Mabbett > @pigsonthewing > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new > From sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 08:08:12 2010 From: sunburned.surveyor at gmail.com (Sunburned Surveyor) Date: Thu Jul 8 08:08:19 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Source Code Examples In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Frances wrote: "Hello, uh.. Sunburned!" Sunburned Surveyor is just a nick name. You can call me Landon. :] Frances wrote: "Drop Anders (current editor) an email and nudge him to see if he is still interested in working on the proposal/research with you. Just seems like the polite thing to do." I'll do that today. Frances wrote: "Fill out a page on research. Gather as many in-the-wild examples of marked-up code examples as you can (i.e. 'Document current behaviour')." I'll see what I can squeeze in. Frances wrote: "We vaguely call coming up with a new microformats specification 'The Process' and you can find the steps here: http://microformats.org/wiki/process" I read the process page. I'll take another look at it after I talk to Anders. Thank you for the suggestions. Landon From SMyles at ap.org Thu Jul 8 15:28:25 2010 From: SMyles at ap.org (Myles, Stuart) Date: Thu Jul 8 15:28:29 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. In-Reply-To: References: <1278541671.1603.28.camel@csarven-netbook> Message-ID: <1B66071016731C4B913D744EA766779B132F2208@NYCXMB01.ap.org> I agree that hATOM and hNews probably get you very far towards being able to do what you need. For the magazine issue metadata, I would suggest looking at rel-tag http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag as a way to mark each article within an issue with an identifier (visible metadata). Regards, Stuart -----Original Message----- From: microformats-new-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-new-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Sunburned Surveyor Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 7:51 PM To: For discussion of new microformats. Subject: Re: [uf-new] Question About "Magazine Article" microformat. Thank you Mark. I will get signed up for the wiki so I can add comments. I printed out the hnews example and will study it tonight. I appreciate the help and suggestions. Landon On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Mark Ng wrote: > On 7 July 2010 15:36, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: >> >> I'll take a look at both formats. Perhaps I can use hnews with a >> slight tweak to include magazine issue. > > I'd encourage you to use hnews and hatom issues and brainstorming > pages on the wiki to document your ideas regarding this, too. > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new > _______________________________________________ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new The information contained in this communication is intended for the use of the designated recipients named above. If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error, and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify The Associated Press immediately by telephone at +1-212-621-1898 and delete this e-mail. Thank you. [IP_US_DISC] msk dccc60c6d2c3a6438f0cf467d9a4938 From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Mon Jul 12 23:08:15 2010 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?UTF-8?Q?Tantek_=C3=87elik?=) Date: Mon Jul 12 23:08:42 2010 Subject: [uf-new] S5 as microformat? In-Reply-To: References: <7319042D-B8F3-4265-AAC3-B278C5967FB5@makedatamakesense.com> <3001FB6F-16B7-4812-BD9D-6B7C2298DA80@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 6:17 AM, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:21 AM, Frances Berriman wrote: > >> I agree. I quite like this idea, I think standardising on this >> translation would be really interesting and useful. ?Are there other >> html-based slideshow systems out there? >> >> A friend of mine created: http://github.com/jakearchibald/jaffaSlides > > > Google recently released this as part of their HTML5 promotion: > > http://code.google.com/p/html5-slides/ > http://slides.html5rocks.com/ > > It's almost identical to S5 in the markup (.slide wrapped in .presentation), > without a navigation section. > > There are a ton of S5 implementations for different frameworks, e.g.: > > http://drupal.org/project/s5 > http://github.com/myles/django-s5 > http://plone.org/products/s5 > http://www.jspwiki.org/wiki/S5Plugin > > Ha, I just found more here: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/s5-tools Hi Scott, This is pretty cool. For a long time I didn't think S5 was worth pursuing as a microformat, because it slides online in HTML didn't seem "common" enough. Perhaps there are now sufficient examples in the wild and tools to work it through the microformats process? I've been posting S5 presentations publicly for quite some time here: http://tantek.com/presentations/ Perhaps consider starting this page with the examples you've found so far: http://microformats.org/wiki/slides-examples Thanks, Tantek -- http://tantek.com/ I made an HTML5 tutorial video/book! http://tantek.com/html5 From danbri at danbri.org Tue Jul 13 00:08:11 2010 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Tue Jul 13 00:16:22 2010 Subject: [uf-new] S5 as microformat? In-Reply-To: <7319042D-B8F3-4265-AAC3-B278C5967FB5@makedatamakesense.com> References: <7319042D-B8F3-4265-AAC3-B278C5967FB5@makedatamakesense.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: > S5 is an HTML-based slideshow system introduced by Eric Meyer (with help of > several other people, including Tantek) back in 2006: > > http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/ > > The basic idea is markup like
and
class="slide"> are read by JavaScript and converted into a usable slideshow. > ?There are several implementations of S5, but no active coordination today. > ?Meanwhile slideshow hosting sites, like Scribd, are moving away from Flash > and towards HTML as a publishing format: > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/30964170/Scribd-in-HTML5 > > The S5 project is in the public domain, and I think it would be valuable to > have a central organization coordinating documentation, implementations, and > potential changes to S5. ?As I'm sure you've already guessed, I think > microformats.org would be a good place to do that. ?Thoughts? This is a good idea, and a nice time right time to raise it. One more link I didn't see mentioned yet is the Slidey tool from Dave Raggett at W3C. http://www.w3.org/Talks/Tools/Slidy/ http://people.w3.org/~dsr/blog/?p=4 http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/1 This is in some ways a clientside successor to the earlier Slidemaker, which you run as a Perl script - http://www.w3.org/Talks/slidemaker/YYMMsub/ http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/slidemaker/ It would be lovely also to get more mainstream, accessible (X)HTML and/or SVG out of Apple Keynote. I've just tried Keynote '09 and its idea of HTML export is to make one huge PNG per page, and flip between them via Javascript. So things don't seem to have improved much since 2003 and http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1865 ... Anyways I've started the page Tantek suggested - see http://microformats.org/wiki/slides-examples and also updated http://microformats.org/wiki/s5-tools with the other links you mention. cheers, Dan From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Fri Jul 16 19:19:47 2010 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?UTF-8?Q?Tantek_=C3=87elik?=) Date: Fri Jul 16 19:20:20 2010 Subject: [uf-new] using microformats to represent what a page is Message-ID: One particularly interesting use case that seems to keep popping up is that of understanding what a page represents, e.g. FB Open Graph Protocol. microformats currently give us a way of marking up the semantics *in* a page, but not necessarily what the page itself *is* or represents, or is about. I think there are some potentially really simple ways of re-using microformats to do this, both in a more open standard way, and in a way which encourages marking up / using the visible data on the page rather than duplicating it in invisible metadata in the head (usual DRY violation problems, invisible metadata rotting problems etc.) I've started a page to document examples, formats, and some brainstorm ideas: http://microformats.org/wiki/page Please feel free to add more to that page. Thanks! Tantek -- http://tantek.com/ I made an HTML5 tutorial video/book! http://tantek.com/html5 From craig.e.shea at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 20:52:17 2010 From: craig.e.shea at gmail.com (Craig Shea) Date: Sat Jul 17 20:52:21 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question RE: The Process Message-ID: Hey all: I have read the process page (and its associated pages) but, I'm still confused. Do I start a proposal by mailing to this list, creating the suggested wiki pages, or both? Regards, Craig E. Shea From scott at makedatamakesense.com Sun Jul 18 09:27:24 2010 From: scott at makedatamakesense.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Sun Jul 18 09:27:30 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question RE: The Process In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00DE364A-481E-43D3-881A-83EBCF1EC104@makedatamakesense.com> On Jul 17, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Craig Shea wrote: > I have read the process page (and its associated pages) but, I'm still > confused. Do I start a proposal by mailing to this list, creating the > suggested wiki pages, or both? It's pretty flexible, but generally the first step is to send a proposal to this list. Someone may have already started working on a similar project, so mailing the list is a good way to consolidate efforts early. -- Scott Reynen MakeDataMakeSense.com From craig.e.shea at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 09:47:16 2010 From: craig.e.shea at gmail.com (Craig Shea) Date: Sun Jul 18 09:47:20 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question RE: The Process In-Reply-To: <00DE364A-481E-43D3-881A-83EBCF1EC104@makedatamakesense.com> References: <00DE364A-481E-43D3-881A-83EBCF1EC104@makedatamakesense.com> Message-ID: Scott: Thanks for the reply. I have done the research on the microformats.org site and know that my proposed format does not exist (including using existing formats to accomplish my end result). Of course, the members of this list could always say "I don't think we need a format for that." Would it be helpful to post a link to my blog posts regarding my "proposed pre-draft specification" (meant to jumpstart brainstorming and discussion with the understanding that it may very well change according to community consensus) and an example of its use? Or is that jumping the gun? Regards, Craig E. Shea On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Jul 17, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Craig Shea wrote: > >> I have read the process page (and its associated pages) but, I'm still >> confused. Do I start a proposal by mailing to this list, creating the >> suggested wiki pages, or both? > > It's pretty flexible, but generally the first step is to send a proposal to this list. ?Someone may have already started working on a similar project, so mailing the list is a good way to consolidate efforts early. > > -- > Scott Reynen > MakeDataMakeSense.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new > From lorenzo.detomasi at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 07:23:43 2010 From: lorenzo.detomasi at gmail.com (Lorenzo De Tomasi) Date: Mon Jul 19 07:54:28 2010 Subject: [uf-new] using microformats to represent what a page is In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about using by default (and when available) a Wikipedia page uri to describe what a page represents? I mean in spite of Activities * activity * sport Businesses * bar * company * cafe * hotel * restaurant Groups * cause * sports_league * sports_team Organizations * band * government * non_profit * school * university People * actor * athlete * author * director * musician * politician * public_figure Places * city * country * landmark * state_province Products and Entertainment * album * book * drink * food * game * product * song * movie * tv_show Websites * blog * website * article On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Tantek ?elik wrote: > One particularly interesting use case that seems to keep popping up is > that of understanding what a page represents, e.g. FB Open Graph > Protocol. > > microformats currently give us a way of marking up the semantics *in* > a page, but not necessarily what the page itself *is* or represents, > or is about. > > I think there are some potentially really simple ways of re-using > microformats to do this, both in a more open standard way, and in a > way which encourages marking up / using the visible data on the page > rather than duplicating it in invisible metadata in the head (usual > DRY violation problems, invisible metadata rotting problems etc.) > > I've started a page to document examples, formats, and some brainstorm ideas: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/page > > Please feel free to add more to that page. > > Thanks! > > Tantek > > -- > http://tantek.com/ > I made an HTML5 tutorial video/book! http://tantek.com/html5 > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new > -- Salta la crisi! Investi in comunicazione -- Lorenzo De Tomasi ISOTYPE.org | comunica la qualit? Coordinatore Designer della comunicazione ^^^^^^^^^^ Rispetta il tuo ambiente, pensa prima di stampare questa e-mail. Grazie. Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you. From jason.karns at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 08:29:28 2010 From: jason.karns at gmail.com (Jason Karns) Date: Mon Jul 19 10:18:31 2010 Subject: [uf-new] using microformats to represent what a page is In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Lorenzo De Tomasi wrote: > > What about using by default (and when available) a Wikipedia page uri > to describe what a page represents? > I mean in spite of This sounds like a job for rel-tag with document scope. One could even use Wikipedia as the tag space. ~Jason From fberriman at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 02:05:03 2010 From: fberriman at gmail.com (Frances Berriman) Date: Tue Jul 20 02:05:53 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question RE: The Process In-Reply-To: References: <00DE364A-481E-43D3-881A-83EBCF1EC104@makedatamakesense.com> Message-ID: On 18 July 2010 17:47, Craig Shea wrote: > Scott: > > Thanks for the reply. I have done the research on the microformats.org > site and know that my proposed format does not exist (including using > existing formats to accomplish my end result). Of course, the members > of this list could always say "I don't think we need a format for > that." Would it be helpful to post a link to my blog posts regarding > my "proposed pre-draft specification" (meant to jumpstart > brainstorming and discussion with the understanding that it may very > well change according to community consensus) and an example of its > use? Or is that jumping the gun? A pre-draft spec does sound a little like jumping the gun, but since you have it - send it over to the list as a new thread. What would be best to be done along side that would be to build a research wiki page looking at examples of what you want to mark-up in the wild. So yes - that would be helpful :) Frances From scott at makedatamakesense.com Tue Jul 20 06:09:25 2010 From: scott at makedatamakesense.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Jul 20 06:15:47 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question RE: The Process In-Reply-To: References: <00DE364A-481E-43D3-881A-83EBCF1EC104@makedatamakesense.com> Message-ID: <63C2F58C-6027-4998-8395-8EE725EB0FF0@makedatamakesense.com> On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Craig Shea wrote: > Thanks for the reply. I have done the research on the microformats.org > site and know that my proposed format does not exist (including using > existing formats to accomplish my end result). Of course, the members > of this list could always say "I don't think we need a format for > that." Would it be helpful to post a link to my blog posts regarding > my "proposed pre-draft specification" (meant to jumpstart > brainstorming and discussion with the understanding that it may very > well change according to community consensus) and an example of its > use? Or is that jumping the gun? Well, writing a pre-draft is probably itself jumping the gun, but not at all uncommon. The process is kind of an ideal of how things should work, but it's pretty common for something to come to microformats.org partially-done already. Any reason we shouldn't start talking about what you're actually working on, rather than talking about how to talk about it? -- Scott Reynen MakeDataMakeSense.com From craig.e.shea at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:01:59 2010 From: craig.e.shea at gmail.com (Craig Shea) Date: Tue Jul 20 16:02:06 2010 Subject: [uf-new] Question RE: The Process In-Reply-To: <63C2F58C-6027-4998-8395-8EE725EB0FF0@makedatamakesense.com> References: <00DE364A-481E-43D3-881A-83EBCF1EC104@makedatamakesense.com> <63C2F58C-6027-4998-8395-8EE725EB0FF0@makedatamakesense.com> Message-ID: Thanks Scott and Frances. Well, Scott, no, I just wanted to keep a "clear separation of concerns", i.e. the process vs. my idea for a microformat. :) I know what a pain it is to carry on two conversations in one forum thread! :) So, that is the problem with "the process": there isn't really _A_ process...it's kind of a guideline. Anyway, thanks for the answers. I will post my idea and leave the "proposed draft spec" at my blog for you all to look at. If there's interest in my ideas, we can move stuff over to the wiki on the brainstorming page and keep hacking away at it. If I'm the only one who likes it, it's no good to anyone else. I'm just trying to "fan the flames" :) Perhaps I'll take Frances' advice and create a research/exploratory discussion page at the wiki if I get a few positive comments. Thanks again all. Regards, ~ Craig E. Shea On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Scott Reynen wrote: > On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Craig Shea wrote: > >> Thanks for the reply. I have done the research on the microformats.org >> site and know that my proposed format does not exist (including using >> existing formats to accomplish my end result). Of course, the members >> of this list could always say "I don't think we need a format for >> that." Would it be helpful to post a link to my blog posts regarding >> my "proposed pre-draft specification" (meant to jumpstart >> brainstorming and discussion with the understanding that it may very >> well change according to community consensus) and an example of its >> use? Or is that jumping the gun? > > Well, writing a pre-draft is probably itself jumping the gun, but not at all uncommon. ?The process is kind of an ideal of how things should work, but it's pretty common for something to come to microformats.org partially-done already. ?Any reason we shouldn't start talking about what you're actually working on, rather than talking about how to talk about it? > > -- > Scott Reynen > MakeDataMakeSense.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new > From craig.e.shea at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 17:34:08 2010 From: craig.e.shea at gmail.com (Craig Shea) Date: Tue Jul 20 17:34:14 2010 Subject: [uf-new] RFC: Proposal for a (book) title microformat Message-ID: All: I am a senior in college finishing up my Software Engineering degree. As such, I have chosen a final project that involves creating a web-based inventory system for multi-media. My definition of multi-media includes the following items (this is not an exhaustive list): Books (whether electronic or print), Magazines, Newsletters/Journals, CDs, DVDs, LPs, LaserDiscs, digital media (MP3's and videos), etc. I have searched the microformats.org website and all available archives of this mailing list before submitting this e-mail as a proposal. The microformat I'm proposing involves information about titles. Before going further, I must define the term "title" vs. "book(s)". A title is something that an author writes. A book is a published representation of a title. There may be more than one book for a given title, e.g. a hardcover printing and a softcover printing, or even an audio or ebook. Each format constitutes a separate item, even though they are the same title. This microformat aims to codify the semantic structured markup of titles. From here on out, I shall use the term title instead of book, since a title serves to describe (possibly) many books. This has one very important implication: a title which may have many reviews (using the hReview microformat) may have them aggregated in one place. This aggregation can then be used to display these reviews for several book listings using the hProduct and/or hListing microformats (or possibly even another microformat specifically for book information); e.g. the same reviews would be shown no matter if the book is a softcover, a hardcover, an e-book, an audio book, etc. because they are all for the same title. The title microformat I am proposing will reuse properties of existing microformats in keeping with one of the core tenets of developing new microformats. It will solve the problem that, though title information is widely available on the Internet, there is not a semantic, structured standard for displaying and extracting such information (for humans first). I could see this type of microformat being a huge benefit to the web community for such services as Amazon.com, Google.com (and Google Books), as well as many of the other well-known book services on the Internet to aggregate information about titles. Then, when particular books are marked up using hProduct or hListing (or another yet to be created microformat), for example, the title microformat could be used as a property or pulled in via the include-pattern to supply the common information and the reviews for the associated hProduct or hListing (or other related microformat). By the time you read this e-mail, I will have posted a complete "proposed pre-draft" specification of this format on my blog as a jumping-off point for brainstorming and discussion. This "proposed pre-draft" is in no way "set in stone", but is meant to start the discussions over what such a microformat might look like. In addition, when I start my next semester and begin developing my media inventory application, I will start using the draft specification I post on my blog, as well as implementing any changes that may arise if there is interest in discussing and developing this proposed microformat further. If there is interest in this microformat proposal, then the appropriate wiki pages at microformats.org/wiki will be created. I ask that the community help guide me in making sure that I keep on the proper development track to ensure the successful implementation of this microformat, as I'm very excited about its potential. To see the work that I have already done on this microformat, you can visit the following: http://discoveringcode.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-microformat-propoal-x-htitle.html -- the "proposed pre-draft" specification for brainstorming and discusion http://discoveringcode.blogspot.com/2010/07/sample-title-marked-up-using-x-htitle.html -- a sample of the proposed microfromat's use. Or, if you prefer, you can get to my blog by visiting my wiki user page at microformats.org: http://www.microformats.org/wiki/user:codeguru413 and finding my contact information there. Regards, Craig E. Shea From scott at makedatamakesense.com Tue Jul 20 18:42:06 2010 From: scott at makedatamakesense.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Tue Jul 20 18:42:15 2010 Subject: [uf-new] RFC: Proposal for a (book) title microformat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64DBE35E-87D9-4F52-AB62-3CB38ECB399B@makedatamakesense.com> Hi Craig, This looks very similar to the citation work started here: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation I'd suggest building on the work there. It looks like you've already done much of the first to-do, identifying class names for reuse. -- Scott Reynen MakeDataMakeSense.com From craig.e.shea at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 20:09:48 2010 From: craig.e.shea at gmail.com (Craig Shea) Date: Tue Jul 20 20:15:28 2010 Subject: [uf-new] RFC: Proposal for a (book) title microformat In-Reply-To: <64DBE35E-87D9-4F52-AB62-3CB38ECB399B@makedatamakesense.com> References: <64DBE35E-87D9-4F52-AB62-3CB38ECB399B@makedatamakesense.com> Message-ID: Scott: Hmmm, I took a very quick look at this before hitting the sack. It looks like there is some overlap in terms of class names and what-not, I'll give you that. the thing that concerns me is the fact that that format is called "citation". The microformat I'm proposing is not for citations. However, I will look at it some more. Let me know what you think about the difference in purpose between the citation microformat and the one I'm proposing; I'd be interested to hear thoughts/comments on that aspect. Thanks. ~ Craig E. Shea On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: > Hi Craig, > > This looks very similar to the citation work started here: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/citation > > I'd suggest building on the work there. ?It looks like you've already done much of the first to-do, identifying class names for reuse. > > -- > Scott Reynen > MakeDataMakeSense.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new > From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Jul 21 04:04:57 2010 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby Inkster) Date: Wed Jul 21 04:05:27 2010 Subject: [uf-new] RFC: Proposal for a (book) title microformat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100721120457.0dd2274b@miranda.g5n.co.uk> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:34:08 -0400 Craig Shea wrote: > Before going further, I must define the term "title" vs. "book(s)". A > title is something that an author writes. A book is a published > representation of a title. This distinction is similar to the distinction that the Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records (FRBR) makes. FRBR was developed by librarians about 15 years ago as the gold standard data model for books and similar. It's often used as a design guide when programming software for cataloguing books. Rather than two levels like your suggestion above, FRBR distinguishes between four levels: Work Expression Manifestation Item A "Work" for example might be the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy. This might have several Expressions: for example an English language version, and a French language version. The English language version might have several Manifestations - e.g. the softback version measuring X by Y millimetres, published in 2006. All copies of that Manifestation have the same physical and intellectual characteristics. Lastly, a Manifestation will typically have many thousands of Items, as an Item refers to a single copy of a book. Modelling books at each of these levels has its uses; and understanding the relationship between them is useful too. For example, a library probably wants to keep track of Items, and also group them into Expressions so that it knows that if one Item of a book has been checked out, the next borrower might be interested in another Item of the same Expression. A microformat for books probably doesn't need to model all of the FRBR levels, but it should probably aim to align its model with at least one FRBR level. So, for example, if hTitle was aiming to line up with an FRBR Expression, we'd know that a review could mention the quality of the translation; whereas if it was aiming to line up with an FRBR Item, the review might mention whether its pages were torn. Here's a quick FRBR primer: http://www.loc.gov/cds/downloads/FRBR.PDF > It looks like there is some overlap in terms of class names and > what-not, I'll give you that. the thing that concerns me is the fact > that that format is called "citation". If there was a decent book microformat, a citation microformat could emerge quite easily as a by-product: When the book title is marked up as: ... it's a citation; otherwise, if it's ... then it's a non-citation mention of the book. -- Toby A Inkster