From minottoemanuele at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 05:40:15 2010 From: minottoemanuele at gmail.com (Emanuele Minotto) Date: Tue Sep 7 05:40:35 2010 Subject: [uf-new] SERP proposal Message-ID: I propose a model for representing search results pages (SERP), analyzing the results of a sample of search engines you may notice that many elements have the same goal but nobody is represented equally. As a sample I took a SERP of the following search engines: Google, Bing, Cuil, Yahoo, Ask, Baidu, Wikipedia.?(Where possible, in English) The general elements of a search page are: - Number of results : 100% of the sample - Page : 100% - Number of first result on the page, last result on the page number : 100% - Link to advanced search : 100% - Seek time : 28% While the elements of a single snippet are: - Title : 100% - Description : 100% - Address : 85% - Copy into the cache : 57% Having said that I'd know what you think to identify a results page with microformats. From danbri at danbri.org Tue Sep 7 05:50:50 2010 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Tue Sep 7 05:50:56 2010 Subject: [uf-new] SERP proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Emanuele Minotto wrote: > I propose a model for representing search results pages (SERP), > analyzing the results of a sample of search engines you may notice > that many elements have the same goal but nobody is represented > equally. > As a sample I took a SERP of the following search engines: Google, > Bing, Cuil, Yahoo, Ask, Baidu, Wikipedia.?(Where possible, in English) > > The general elements of a search page are: > - Number of results : 100% of the sample > - Page : 100% > - Number of first result on the page, last result on the page number : 100% > - Link to advanced search : 100% > - Seek time : 28% > > While the elements of a single snippet are: > - Title : 100% > - Description : 100% > - Address : 85% > - Copy into the cache : 57% > > Having said that I'd know what you think to identify a results page > with microformats. Perhaps it might be worth distinguishing between the big, global search engines and smaller eg. per-site-search pages. The big sites (i) have massive load, and change their markup very carefully; (ii) are careful about exposing APIs and scraping. These are the ones with 'cache' links. Smaller search sites - I think these are much more likely to deploy a microformat. I image much could be handled via http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom with some of the extras you indicate above. Did you see http://www.opensearch.org/Home ? seems quite close... "OpenSearch is a collection of simple formats for the sharing of search results." ... "The OpenSearch response elements can be used to extend existing syndication formats, such as RSS and Atom, with the extra metadata needed to return search results." http://www.opensearch.org/Documentation/Recommendations/OpenSearch_and_microformats is probably the best starting point... cheers, Dan From michael.smethurst at bbc.co.uk Tue Sep 7 06:00:22 2010 From: michael.smethurst at bbc.co.uk (Michael Smethurst) Date: Tue Sep 7 06:00:20 2010 Subject: [uf-new] SERP proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07/09/2010 13:50, "Dan Brickley" wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Emanuele Minotto > wrote: >> I propose a model for representing search results pages (SERP), >> analyzing the results of a sample of search engines you may notice >> that many elements have the same goal but nobody is represented >> equally. >> As a sample I took a SERP of the following search engines: Google, >> Bing, Cuil, Yahoo, Ask, Baidu, Wikipedia.?(Where possible, in English) >> >> The general elements of a search page are: >> - Number of results : 100% of the sample >> - Page : 100% >> - Number of first result on the page, last result on the page number : 100% >> - Link to advanced search : 100% >> - Seek time : 28% >> >> While the elements of a single snippet are: >> - Title : 100% >> - Description : 100% >> - Address : 85% >> - Copy into the cache : 57% >> >> Having said that I'd know what you think to identify a results page >> with microformats. > > Perhaps it might be worth distinguishing between the big, global > search engines and smaller eg. per-site-search pages. > > The big sites (i) have massive load, and change their markup very > carefully; (ii) are careful about exposing APIs and scraping. These > are the ones with 'cache' links. > > Smaller search sites - I think these are much more likely to deploy a > microformat. I image much could be handled via > http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom with some of the extras you > indicate above. > > Did you see http://www.opensearch.org/Home ? seems quite close... Slighty off topic but glancing thru: http://www.opensearch.org/Specifications/OpenSearch/1.1 And seeing count, start index, start page etc made me wonder if pagination helpers in general might be a useful pattern for microformats / posh? > > "OpenSearch is a collection of simple formats for the sharing of > search results." > ... > "The OpenSearch response elements can be used to extend existing > syndication formats, such as RSS and Atom, with the extra metadata > needed to return search results." > > http://www.opensearch.org/Documentation/Recommendations/OpenSearch_and_microfo > rmats > is probably the best starting point... > > cheers, > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From minottoemanuele at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:25:26 2010 From: minottoemanuele at gmail.com (Emanuele Minotto) Date: Tue Sep 7 06:25:31 2010 Subject: [uf-new] SERP proposal Message-ID: Oh sorry, I forgot to actually talk about OpenSearch. ^^' Yes, I know OpenSearch and i think it's very helpful, but not to do this, let me explain better. First, the OpenSearch is not designed for HTML, for that the search engines already exist, but as a tool (rather not comment on the use in feed, I do not know the uses). I thought to identify the results of the SERP for use by the instrument OpenSearch, for example, if a user (using firefox) search something on google, the OpenSearch can store results and perform the redirect directly to the address instead of passing the user from the SERP. Yes, you can use a hAtom to show snippets, but it is wrong to use hAtom to find a snippet that may vary between 10 years? From sh1933 at nyu.edu Tue Sep 7 10:26:20 2010 From: sh1933 at nyu.edu (Sebastian Heath) Date: Tue Sep 7 10:59:46 2010 Subject: [uf-new] note/notereference class-pattern microformat? In-Reply-To: References: <87A56A20-AFDF-4166-9094-4C2EB03FAC2C@nyu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, I'm currently in the early stages of writing guidelines for a series of digital publications, both books and articles. I would like to be as "standard" as possible, so POSH should have a role going forward. Meaning xhtml encoding, and I'd like to try to standardize my class names as much as possible. Having chosen xhtml, I pretty quickly come up against the absence of a comprehensive vocabulary - microformats or otherwise - for what I want to do. I've seen http://microformats.org/wiki/book-brainstorming , which is a start. But is it still active? If yes, I would like to see it generalized in a "text class" microformat that could be applied to all longer forms of text, regardless of whether they are books/articles/other and whether they are intended for print or digital distribution. So perhaps the place to start is small: two classes for indicating the relationship between notes and references to those notes in a text. I'm purposefully punting on whether these notes are end/foot/sidenotes, because that seems to be a runtime decision and/or personal preference. I want to cover both. Brass tacks: Pattern 1:

Body Text

Some text. 1.

Notes

Explanatory text.

The defined @class values are 'note' and 'notereference'. @href with fragment identifier. 'class="note"' with @id. Pattern 2:

Some text. Explanatory text. Here only 'class="note"' is used. Presentation is a "runtime" decision via css or other mechanism. I'm not interested in defining which elements are used. The html5 aside element, divs, spans, etc. That's up to the author. I'm really focussed on the noteref and note relationship as indicated by classes and implemented with @href and @id. I'm also not (yet) interested in the content of notes: the citation microformat, frbr derived info, all can be contained in an element classed as a 'note' if that's what you want to do. I've looked around and seen this very simple pattern implemented in many places. I haven't seen it defined. If it is, I'd love to know that. If not, is microformats a vehicle for doing so? Thank you, Sebastian. p.s. I hope I haven't started too far along in my thoughts to be useful. I'm an RDFa and Digital Humanities geek who is dipping my toes into the microformat community for the first time. Happy to be told where to start. ------------- Sebastian Heath, Ph.D. Clinical Assistant Professor, Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, New York University, sh1933@nyu.edu From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Sep 11 15:56:14 2010 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby Inkster) Date: Sat Sep 11 15:56:35 2010 Subject: [uf-new] note/notereference class-pattern microformat? In-Reply-To: References: <87A56A20-AFDF-4166-9094-4C2EB03FAC2C@nyu.edu> Message-ID: <20100911235614.467acf92@miranda.g5n.co.uk> On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:26:20 -0400 Sebastian Heath wrote: > So perhaps the place to start is small: two classes for indicating > the relationship between notes and references to those notes in a > text. I'm purposefully punting on whether these notes are > end/foot/sidenotes, because that seems to be a runtime decision > and/or personal preference. I want to cover both. rel=footnote is pretty widely used. Despite the name, it doesn't have do point to a note in the traditional footnote style, but could point to an endnote or a note on another page. It's mentioned in this old W3C pre-HTML-4.0 document: http://www.w3.org/TR/relations.html Various versions of Markdown include it in their HTML output. > I'm an RDFa and Digital Humanities geek who is dipping my toes into > the microformat community for the first time. Well, with RDFa 1.1 profiles, rel=footnote can even be successfully interpreted as RDFa. -- Toby A Inkster From sebastian.heath at nyu.edu Mon Sep 13 11:52:10 2010 From: sebastian.heath at nyu.edu (Sebastian Heath) Date: Mon Sep 13 11:52:39 2010 Subject: [uf-new] note/notereference class-pattern microformat? In-Reply-To: <20100911235614.467acf92@miranda.g5n.co.uk> References: <87A56A20-AFDF-4166-9094-4C2EB03FAC2C@nyu.edu> <20100911235614.467acf92@miranda.g5n.co.uk> Message-ID: <85E47464-42CF-471B-B54B-EF2634775D54@nyu.edu> Toby, Thanks for the link to http://www.w3.org/TR/relations.html . A little worrisome that it says: "Status The authorship of this document is unknown. It has no status." I've spent a little time today looking at Markdown and related implementations of footnotes. A summary of what I think I know so far: * Footnotes aren't directly documented in the 'official' markdown syntax [1]. The are briefly discussed under links. * While footnotes aren't supported in the main php-markdown library [2], they are supported in php-markdown-extra [3]. To cut-and-paste the relevant sample from the doc: That's some text with a footnote.[^1] [^1]: And that's the footnote. Gets you:

That's some text with a footnote. 1

  1. And that's the footnote. ↩

As you say rel/rev="footnote" out in the wild. * kramdown[4] and maruku[5] supports the same syntax. I haven't seen what the output is. * The post "About the Footnote"[6] at Daring Fireball is relevant here. With Joe Clark's response [7]. This is an old discussion. * See Ignore the Code [8] for a recent post on implementing footnotes with a jquery library. Pretty clean and nice "pop up" footnotes but see below. * I still think it is worth thinking about 'class="footnote"' within a standards writing environment (or "note" but I'm happy to use "footnote" as a generic). Here's why: The '' pattern characterizes the link, not the text of the reference, nor the footnote itself. Go to the "Ignore the Code" html source. You'll see:

  • Such as screen readers, or touchscreen devices like iPads. back

    • It is not semantically clear that the

    is a footnote. Yes, the mini js libary can handle deriving the text, but that's a little bit of a hack. Much cleaner would be: '

  • ...
    • ' or '

  • ...

    • ' But that is perhaps author preference. We might see greater proliferation of js libraries that do things with footnotes if 'class="footnote" id="123"' had some backing to it. I can't decide whether the fact that it hasn't means that there wouldn't be any support for it. -Sebastian [1] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax [2] http://michelf.com/projects/php-markdown/ [3] http://michelf.com/projects/php-markdown/extra/ [4] http://kramdown.rubyforge.org/syntax.html#footnotes [5] http://maruku.rubyforge.org/maruku.html [6] http://daringfireball.net/2005/07/footnotes [7] http://blog.fawny.org/2005/07/24/footnote/ [8] http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2010/04/20/footnotes/ ------------- Sebastian Heath, Ph.D. Clinical Assistant Professor, Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, New York University, sebastian.heath@nyu.edu On Sep 11, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Toby Inkster wrote: > On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:26:20 -0400 > Sebastian Heath wrote: > >> So perhaps the place to start is small: two classes for indicating >> the relationship between notes and references to those notes in a >> text. I'm purposefully punting on whether these notes are >> end/foot/sidenotes, because that seems to be a runtime decision >> and/or personal preference. I want to cover both. > > rel=footnote is pretty widely used. Despite the name, it doesn't > have do > point to a note in the traditional footnote style, but could point to > an endnote or a note on another page. > > It's mentioned in this old W3C pre-HTML-4.0 document: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/relations.html > > Various versions of Markdown include it in their HTML output. > >> I'm an RDFa and Digital Humanities geek who is dipping my toes into >> the microformat community for the first time. > > Well, with RDFa 1.1 profiles, rel=footnote can even be successfully > interpreted as RDFa. > > -- > Toby A Inkster > > >