<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><DIV>On Jul 11, 2007, at 2:12 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV>Complete adherence to HTML</DIV> <DIV>is simply not a practical criteria to apply without concession on</DIV> <DIV>today's web.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>If that's true - which I dispute - then who's going to re-write:</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <<A href="http://microformats.org/wiki/POSH">http://microformats.org/wiki/POSH</A>></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> The first rule of POSH is that you must validate your POSH.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>accordingly?</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><DIV>Validation and adherence to the HTML spec are not exactly the same thing. All spec-adherent websites are valid, but not all valid sites are spec-adherent. So full adherence to the spec is more work to ask of publishers than simple validation. Ironically, I think the HTML validator actually encourages poor use of the alt attribute because it returns an error on missing alt attributes, but doesn't make any mention that alt should be empty for non-content images. So publishers who leave out alt on non-content images see this error and end up adding alt attributes with exactly the kind of "red ball" values the HTML spec discourages.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I completely agree such publishers should be encouraged to stop doing this; I just doubt whether such encouragement should come from the microformats community. I see our goal as a bit more specific than general encouragement of better HTML: making better HTML publishing more appealing by establishing practical benefits. And I think the best way to do this is to focus on areas where better HTML results in maximum practical benefits with minimum cost to publishers.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>In this case specifically, I suspect the best way to accomplish that goal would not be to encourage everyone publishing non-content alt attributes to change, but rather to encourage everyone publishing content in alt attributes to insert such content as more accessible text, and use style sheets to apply more stylized images, which I think is what Ben was suggesting (see [1]). This solution, I think, makes better HTML more useful without making microformats any more difficult to publish for those who aren't up to spec.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>[1] <A href="http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/">http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>--</DIV><DIV>Scott Reynen</DIV><DIV>MakeDataMakeSense.com</DIV></SPAN></SPAN><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>