Microformats Wiki - User contributions [en]

User:EranGloben

2007-07-18T00:17:05Z

EranGloben: /* [http://hellonline.com/index.html Eran Globen] */

== [http://hellonline.com/index.html Eran Globen] ==

Blogs at: [http://hellonline.com/blog/ Hellonline] and [http://supr.c.ilio.us/blog/ Supr.c.ilio.us: The Blog]

Currently interested in: citeRel, xFolk, hAtom.

Related tidbits:
* [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=69 Distributed Social Anything]
* [http://hellonline.com/blog/?cat=4 Some microformats related posts]
* [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=8 RSS Mangler] sometimes works... :)

{{public-domain-release}}

group-brainstorming

2006-08-10T19:22:39Z

EranGloben: Added XHTML Membership Format

= Group Brainstorming =

This page is for brainstorming about ideas, proposals, constraints, requirements for a Groups microformat.

== Authors ==

* [[User:ChrisMessina | Chris Messina]]
* [[User:Josh | Josh Peek]]
* [http://tantek.com/ Tantek Çelik]

== Problem ==

See [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-February/003181.html Chris Messina's original thoughts] on microformats-discuss.

Not every page belongs to one user. We need a microformat to define a group of people.

There are two distinct problems here though.

The problem that Chris's proposal describes is actually just one of tagging. By tagging people with the same tag, you "place" them into a group as defined by that tag. That's the model presented by Chris's ASCII art diagram.

The simpler problem to solve is perhaps the Group equivalent of [http://gmpg.org/xfn/ XFN]

How does a person indicate that they belong to of a group?

How does a group indicate that a person is a member of that group?

== A Proposed Structure ==

From [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-February/003181.html Chris Messina's original post]

--Group Name
| Description
| Tags
|
+--+ Members
| |
| +-- Member 1 (hcard)
| |
| +-- Member 2 (hcard)
|
+--+ Pool
|
+--+ Topic
|
+-- Post 1 (hatom)
|
+-- Post 2 (hatom)

This model is totally overdesigned. A groups microformat should start as simple as possible, meaning, nothing but the idea of a group and members. That's the 80% in common case across various systems. People in a group. A group with people. Nothing more. -Tantek

<s>Add optional roles. Groups may have "admins", "moderators", or "members". Or if you were marking up a contributes page, you could have "programmers", "designers", etc.</s> Is this what you mean by tags? - Josh

No, those are roles. I mean the very *name* of a group could be interpreted simply as a tag on a person.

For example a named group of bookmarks are nothing more than a tag that all those bookmarks share.

Any taxonomy of group roles (admins, moderators, etc.) should be postponed.

-Tantek

To keep it simple, could we say that hGroup is just a container for other microformats. That would cover members (hcards) and topics (atom). - Josh

No. Both (a) naming and (b) proposing a structure (container) are both premature for a microformat, until the proper research has been done and documented on the wiki. Please follow the [[process]].

-Tantek

== Real World Examples ==

See [[group-examples]] for current implementations.

== Rel Group Member Proposal ==

I think Eran proposed this first, but just to make sure it is captured:
* rel="group" - used by an individual to link to their groups
* rel="member" - used by a group's site on links to its members

:I've used this format to desribe group membership in a distributed fashion. It is kept very simple on purpose, defining only group membership (both ways) and group roles. The format is loosely based on XFN so it should look familiar to you. Take a look at the draft profile for [http://hellonline.com/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/XMF XHTML Membership Format (XMF)]. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 12:22, 10 Aug 2006 (PDT)

== Possible Implementations ==

Groups could define there members on their own homepage. Social web sites could pick up the group list from the groups site instead. You'd instantly have your group on every (dreaming) social web service.

== See Also ==
* [[hcard]]
* [http://gmpg.org/xfn/ XFN]

hcard

2006-08-09T18:56:39Z

EranGloben: /* Examples in the wild */

<h1>hCard</h1>

hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for representing people, companies, organizations, and places, using a 1:1 representation of the properties and values of the vCard standard ([http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt RFC2426]) in [[semantic-xhtml|semantic XHTML]]. hCard is one of several open [[microformats|microformat]] standards suitable for embedding in (X)HTML, Atom, RSS, and arbitrary XML.

Want to get started with writing an [[hcard|hCard]]? Use the [http://microformats.org/code/hcard/creator hCard creator] to write up some contact information and publish it, or follow the [[hcard-authoring|hCard authoring tips]] to add hCard markup to your current contact page.

__TOC__

== Specification ==

=== Editor ===
[http://tantek.com/ Tantek Çelik], [http://technorati.com Technorati, Inc.]

=== Authors ===
* [http://tantek.com/ Tantek Çelik], [http://technorati.com Technorati, Inc]
* [http://suda.co.uk/ Brian Suda]

=== Copyright ===
{{MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2004}}

=== Patents ===
{{MicroFormatPatentStatement}}

=== Inspiration and Acknowledgments ===
Thanks to: my good friend [http://vadim.com/ Vadim] who introduced me to vCard ''many'' years ago, and if I'd only paid more attention then, perhaps I could have helped a lot of people avoid wasting a lot of time reinventing various standards wheels.

== Introduction ==
The vCard standard ([http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt RFC2426]), has been broadly interoperably implemented (e.g. Apple's "Address Book" application built into MacOSX).

In addition, many bloggers identify themselves by name and discuss their friends and family. With just a tad bit of structure, bloggers can discuss people in their blog(s) in such a way that spiders and other aggregators can retrieve this information, automatically convert them to vCards, and use them in any vCard application or service.

This specification introduces the '''hCard''' format, which uses a 1:1 representation of the properties and values of the aforementioned vCard standard, in semantic XHTML. Bloggers can both embed hCards directly in their web pages, and style them with CSS to make them appear as desired. In addition, hCard enables applications to retrieve information directly from web pages without having to reference a separate file.

Use the [http://microformats.org/code/hcard/creator hCard creator] and copy the HTML code it generates to your blog or website to publish your contact info.

== Semantic XHTML Design Principles ==
{{semantic-xhtml-design-principles}}

== Format ==
=== In General ===
The vCard standard ([http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt RFC2426]) forms the basis of hCard.

The basic format of hCard is to use vCard object/property names in lower-case for class names, and to map the nesting of vCard objects directly into nested XHTML elements.

=== More Semantic Equivalents ===
However, for some properties there is a more semantic equivalent, and therefore they get special treatment, e.g.:
* <code>URL</code> in vCard becomes <code><a class="url" href="...">...</a></code> inside the element with <code>class="vcard"</code> in hCard.
* Similarly, <code>EMAIL</code> in vCard becomes <code><nowiki><a class="email" href="mailto:...">...</a></nowiki></code>
* <code>PHOTO</code> in vCard becomes <code><img class="photo" src="..." alt="Photo of ..." /></code> or <code><object class="photo" data="..." type="...">Photo of ...</object></code>
* <code>UID</code> in vCard simply becomes another semantic applied to a specific URL (or EMAIL) for an hCard.

=== Singular vs. Plural Properties ===

For properties which are singular (e.g. "N" and "FN"), the first descendant element with that class should take effect, any others being ignored.

For properties which can be plural (e.g. "TEL"), each class instance should create a instance of that property. Plural properties with subtypes (e.g. TEL with WORK, HOME, CELL) can be optimized to share a common element for the property itself, with each instance of subtype being an appropriately classed descendant of the property element.

==== Singular properties ====

Singular properties: "FN", "N", "BDAY", "TZ", "GEO", "SORT-STRING", "UID", "CLASS".

All other properties are plural. This list has been derived by analyzing the semantics of the individual properties in vCard RFC2426 and determining logically that they MUST be singular per their semantics. See [[hcard-singular-properties]] for explanations.

==== Plural Properties Singularized ====

Since plural property names become their singular equivalents, even if the original plural property permitted only a single value with multiple components, those multiple components are represented each with their own singularly named property and the the property is effectively multivalued and subject to the above treatment of multivalued properties.

=== Human vs. Machine readable ===

If an <code><abbr></code> element is used for a property, then the '<code>title</code>' attribute of the <code><abbr></code> element is the value of the property, instead of the contents of the element, which instead provide a human presentable version of the value.

If an <code><a></code> element is used for one or more properties, it must be treated as follows:
# For the "PHOTO" property and any other property that takes a URL as its value, the <code>href="..."</code> attribute provides the property value.
# For other properties, the element's content is the value of the property.

If an <code><img></code> element is used for one or more properties, it must be treated as follows:
# For the "PHOTO" property and any other property that takes a URL as its value, the <code>src="..."</code> attribute provides the property value.
# For other properties, the <code><img></code> element's '<code>alt</code>' attribute is the value of the property.

If an <code><object></code> element is used for one or more properties, it must be treated as follows:
# For the "PHOTO" property and any other property that takes a URL as its value, the <code>data="..."</code> attribute provides the property value.
# For other properties, the element's content is the value of the property.

=== Value excerpting ===

Sometimes only part of an element which is the equivalent for a property should be used for the value of the property. This typically occurs when a property has a subtype, like TEL. For this purpose, the special class name "<code>value</code>" is introduced to excerpt out the subset of the element that is the value of the property. E.g. here is an hCard fragment for marking up a home phone number:

<pre><nowiki>

home:
+1.415.555.1212

</nowiki></pre>

This hCard fragment could be displayed as:

home: +1.415.555.1212

=== Property Exceptions ===

vCard has several properties which either do not make sense on, or are already implied within the context of a web page. This section explains what to (not) do with them.

# '''NAME''', '''PROFILE''', '''SOURCE''', '''PRODID''', '''VERSION''' properties as defined in Sections 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.1.4, 3.6.3, 3.6.9 of RFC 2426. Content publishers MUST NOT use these properties in their hCards, and as such, hCard consumers/parsers MUST IGNORE these properties if they are found within an hCard. Instead. hCard to vCard converters SHOULD use the title of the page where the hCard is found (e.g. the <code><title></code> element in (X)HTML documents) to construct the NAME property, MAY output a PROFILE value of "<code>VCARD</code>" per RFC 2426, SHOULD use the URL of the page where the hCard is found to construct the SOURCE property (e.g. perhaps as a parameter to a URL/service that converts hCards to vCards), for an output vCard stream (e.g. a .vcf file). Only services/applications that output actual vCards should write the PRODID property, with the product identifier for said service/application. Similarly only such services/applications should write the VERSION property, with the value "3.0" (without quotes) per RFC2426 Section 3.6.9.

=== Organization Contact Info ===

If the "FN" and "ORG" properties have the exact same value (typically because they are set on the same element, e.g. class="fn org"), then the hCard represents contact information for a company or organization and should be treated as such. In this case the author MUST also NOT set the "N" property, or set it (and any sub-properties) explicitly to the empty string "". Thus parsers should handle the missing "N" property in this case by implying empty values for all the "N" sub-properties.

=== Implied "n" Optimization ===

Although vCard requires that the "N" property be present, the authors of the vCard specification (RFC 2426) themselves do not include "N" properties in their vCards near the end of the spec (p.38). This apparent contradiction can be resolved by simply allowing the "FN" property to imply "N" property values in typical cases provided in the spec. We do so explicitly in hCard.

If "FN" and "ORG" are not the same (see previous section), and the value of the "FN" property is exactly two words (separated by whitespace), and there is no explicit "N" property, then the "N" property is inferred from the "FN" property. For "FN"s with either one word see below, and for three or more, the author MUST explicitly markup the "N", except for the organization contact info case, [http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info see above] for that.

# The content of "FN" is broken into two "words" separated by whitespace.
# The ''first'' word of the "FN" is interpreted as the "given-name" for the "N" property.
# The ''second/last'' word of the "FN" is interpreted as the "family-name" for the "N" property.
# Exception: If the first word ends in a "," comma OR if the second word is a single character (optionally followed by a period "."), then the first word (minus the comma at the end if any) is interpreted as the "family-name" and the second word is interpreted as the "given-name".

This allows simplification in the typical case of people stating:
* given-name (space) family-name
* family-name (comma) given-name
* family-name (comma) given-name-first-initial
* family-name (space) given-name-first-initial (optional period)

=== Implied "nickname" Optimization ===

Due to the prevalence of the use of nicknames/handles/usernames on the Web in actual content published on the Web (e.g. authors of [[hReview|reviews]]), hCard also has an implied "nickname" optimization to handle this.

Similar to the implied "n" optimization, if "FN" and "ORG" are not the same, and the value of the "FN" property is exactly one word, and there is no explicit "N" property, then:

# The content of the "FN" is treated as a "nickname" property value.
# Parsers should handle the missing "N" property by implying empty values for all the "N" sub-properties.

Note: the hCard may have additional explicit "nickname" property values in addition to the implied nickname.

=== Implied "organization-name" Optimization ===

The "ORG" property has two subproperties, organization-name and organization-unit. Very often authors only publish the organization-name. Thus if an "ORG" property has no "organization-name" inside it, then its entire contents MUST be treated as the "organization-name".

=== Tags as Categories ===

Categories in hCard can optionally be represented by tags with rel-tag. When a category property is a rel-tag, the tag (as defined by rel-tag) is used for that category.

=== Root Class Name ===

The root class name for an hCard is "vcard".

=== Property List ===

This is the list of properties (and subproperties, in parentheses, like this) in hCard, taken from vCard:

* fn, n (family-name, given-name, additional-name, honorific-prefix, honorific-suffix), nickname, sort-string
* url, email (type, value), tel (type, value)
* adr (post-office-box, extended-address, street-address, locality, region, postal-code, country-name, type, value), label
* geo (latitude, longitude), tz
* photo, logo, sound, bday
* title, role, org (organization-name, organization-unit)
* category, note
* class, key, mailer, uid, rev
==== type subproperty values ====

The 'type' subproperty in particular takes different values depending on which property it is a subproperty of. These 'type' subproperty values are case-INSENSITIVE, meaning "Home" is the same as "home", as well as multivalued, e.g. a tel can be home and preferred:
<pre><nowiki>
Home (preferred):
+1.415.555.1212

</nowiki></pre>

The following lists are ''informative''. See RFC2426 sections 3.2.1 ADR, 3.3.1 TEL, and 3.3.2 EMAIL respectively for normative type values. They are repeated here for convenience. Default type subproperty value(s) is(are) first in each list and indicated in ALL CAPS. types may be multivalued.

* adr type: INTL, POSTAL, PARCEL, WORK, dom, home, pref
* tel type: VOICE, home, msg, work, pref, fax, cell, video, pager, bbs, modem, car, isdn, pcs
* email type: INTERNET, x400, pref, "other IANA registered address types"

=== XMDP Profile ===

See [[hcard-profile]] for the [http://gmpg.org/xmdp XMDP] profile of hCard which contains the above complete list of properties, with references to their RFC 2426 definitions.

=== Parsing Details ===

See [[hcard-parsing|hCard parsing]].

== Examples ==

This section is informative.

=== Sample vCard ===

Here is a sample vCard:

<pre><nowiki>
BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:3.0
N:Çelik;Tantek
FN:Tantek Çelik
URL:http://tantek.com/
ORG:Technorati
END:VCARD
</nowiki></pre>

and an equivalent in hCard with various elements optimized appropriately. See [[hcard-example1-steps| hCard Example 1]] for the derivation.

<pre><nowiki>
<div class="vcard">
<a class="url fn" href="http://tantek.com/">Tantek Çelik</a>
<div class="org">Technorati</div>
</div>
</nowiki></pre>

This hCard might be displayed as:

[http://tantek.com/ Tantek Çelik] 
Technorati

Note: The version information is unnecessary in hCard markup directly since the version will be defined by the profile of hCard that is used/referred to in the 'profile' attribute of the <head> element.

=== More Examples ===

See [[hcard-examples]] for more examples, including all examples from vCard RFC 2426 converted into hCard.

== Examples in the wild ==
This section is '''informative'''.

The following sites have published hCards, and thus are a great place to start for anyone looking for examples "in the wild" to try parsing, indexing, organizing etc. If you have an hCard on your own page, feel free to add it to the top of this list. Once the list grows too big, we'll make a separate wiki page.

=== New Examples ===
Please add new examples to this section.
* [http://WhereAreYouCamping.com Where Are You Camping]. hCards for all members and camps, employing the include pattern as well. AFAIK this is the first Burning Man related microformats implementation, not to mention addresses in Black Rock City.
* [http://www.clacksweb.org.uk Clackmannanshire Council ]. hCard is implemented for all contact details across the site, and for specific individuals such as elected members (Councillors).
* [http://www.webdirections.org Web Directions ]. hCard is used as contact information for the conference, while speakers are marked up with hCard.
* [http://www.markthisdate.com/contactform.html MarkThisDate.com ]. An hCard is implemented on our contactform. For our calendars hCalendars will follow as soon as possible.
* [http://www.msiinet.com/contact/ MSI Systems Integrators] has its "Contact MSI" page encoded with hCards.
* [http://www.coolblue.nl/ Corporate website of Coolblue BV]. hCards were implemented in both the footer of each page, and in the "News" section for press contact information.
* [http://www.besancon.fr/index.php?p=32 Official site of Besançon (France)] uses hCard for each page concerning the small towns surrounding Besançon.
* [http://2006.dconstruct.org/speakers/ d.Construct 2006 conference speakers list] is implemented using hCards.
* [http://local.yahoo.com Yahoo Local] now supports hCards for business and places in the search results
* [http://learningtheworld.eu/imprint/ Learning the World] has hcard information on the imprint, alas we didn't succeed to mark-up the work phone and fax numbers properly.
* The [http://www.fuckparade.org F’parade] website uses hcard, though I didn't find a type to distinguish mobile and landline phone numbers.
* [http://www.miranet.nl/contact.htm Miranet Webdesign] have added a hcard to their [http://www.miranet.nl/contact.htm 'contact' page]
* [http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ Ben Buchanan] has added a vCard to the [http://weblog.200ok.com.au/about/ 'About' page on The 200ok Weblog]
* [http://www.radiantcore.com Radiant Core] has their contact information [http://www.radiantcore.com/contact/ available in hCard].
* [http://www.mikerumble.co.uk/ Mike Rumble] has [http://www.mikerumble.co.uk/contact.html uploaded his hCard].
* [http://www.saumag.edu/ Southern Arkansas University] has its contact footer encoded as hCard
* [http://main.uab.edu/ University of Alabama at Birmingham] has its contact footer encoded as hCard
* [http://www.capital.edu Capital University] has contact footer and bloggers' names encoded as hCard. Also, all page-specific contact information is encoded as hCards (see [http://www.capital.edu/Internet/Default.aspx?pid=67 Admissions] page for an example)
* [http://main.uab.edu/shrp/ UAB School of Health Professions] uses hCard in its contact footer
* [http://green.carisenda.com/ Stephen Stewart] has his hCard on the front page of his weblog ('You are here' section)
* [http://www.fberriman.com/ Frances Berriman] has a hidden vCard in the footers of her website.
* [http://www.candlescience.com/ CandleScience Candle Supply] added a hidden hcard sitewide.
* [http://www.direction.es/ Direction] uses hCard for contact information.
* [http://audiobank.tryphon.org AudioBank] uses hCard to display member informations.
* [http://www.vivabit.com/atmedia2006/speakers/ @media speakers] are marked up with hCard (photos depend on BASE tag support which makes this a good test case)
* [http://www.dougransom.com Doug Ransom] uses hCard for his financial advisory practice.
* [http://rubyandrails.org/usergroups/newcastle/members.html ncl.rb] uses hCard for contact information.
* [http://www.snowinteractive.com/ Snow Interactive] uses hCard for contact information.
* [http://flickr.com Flickr] now supports [[hcard|hCard]] and [http://gmpg.org/xfn XFN] on profile pages. See [http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/113866484/ screenshot of Flickr UI in Flock browser using Flocktails extension - March 17th 2006].
* [http://www.ndiyo.org/contact Contact information for the Ndiyo project]
* [http://www.pixelenvy.co.uk/ Pixel Envy] uses hCard for contact information on every page
* [http://stilbuero.de/contact/ Klaus Hartl] uses hCard in the sidebar for contact information (maybe easier to parse through delivering xhtml as xml).
* [http://charlvn.virafrikaans.com/contact Charl van Niekerk's hCard]
* [http://billy-girlardo.com/WP/ BillyBLOGirlardo] uses hCard for contact information.
* [http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/ Hicksdesign] uses hCard for contact information.
* http://www.gr0w.com/articles/press/growsearch_launched_press_release/ - hCard in a press release for the press contact info
* http://www.redmonk.com/cote/archives/2006/03/testing_out_mic.html - hCard with explanation
* [http://andy.ciordia.info/ it's my island], personal blog, hcard on the ''[http://andy.ciordia.info/pages/about_me About the Writer]'' page. [[User:Ciordia9|Andy Ciordia]]
* [http://www.windowonwoking.org.uk/ Window on Woking], a local community site in the UK, uses hCard in the homepage of each member organisation and local Councillor.
* [http://ChunkySoup.net/ ChunkySoup.net] has redesigned using hAtom 0.1 and hCards on the entire site -- by [[User:ChrisCasciano|Chris Casciano]]
* [http://www.30boxes.com/ 30 Boxes],a social calendar application and digital lifestyle aggregator, automatically creates an hcard for you with your account. It is found under Settings > Syndication.
* [http://www.nearwhere.com/ Nearwhere.com] allow you to put an hcard on an interactive map.
* [http://www.brentozar.com/ Brent Ozar] added a [http://www.brentozar.com/contact.php contact] page hCard.
* [http://www.kerihenare.com/ Keri Henare] has rewritten his [http://www.kerihenare.com/contact/ contact] page hCard. Now using <code><object></code> instead of <code><img></code> for photo. (Thanks Brian Suda for updating the vCard converter)
* [http://michaelraichelson.com/contact/ Michael Raichelson] had an hCard on his contact page before SXSW, but never thought to add it here until Tantek requested it.
* [http://www.commoner.com/~lsimon/lindsey_simon_hcard.html Lindsey Simon] has added an hCard to his website as per Tantek's SXSW request for folks to try it
* [http://www.davidgagne.net/ David Gagne] has an hCard in his sidebar.
* [http://www.churchzip.com/map/ Churchzip.com/map] and [http://www.skiwhere.com/map/ Skiwhere.com/map], provide churches, hotels, and ski resorts on the same maps. Locations are formatted as hcards.
* All [http://www.iqdir.com/ IQ Directory Solutions] Yellow Pages web portals use [[hcard|hCard]] markup on listings. For example [http://www.yellowpages-cambodia.com/ Cambodia Yellow Pages] and [http://www.superpages.com.my/ Malaysia Super Pages]
* Ning's cloneable Group app uses fuzzy matching to map custom fields to [[hcard|hCard]] markup on its [http://group.ning.com/index.php?controller=person&action=view&content=JonathanAquino profile] pages.
* [http://claimid.com/factoryjoe Chris Messina' ClaimID hCard]
* [http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard Chris Messina' hCard]
* [http://flock.com/about Flock About]
* [http://tantek.com/microformats/2006/03-01-TechPlenAgenda.html Agenda: W3C Technical Plenary Day, March 1 2006] has [[hcard|hCard]] and [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] markup. ([http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html original here]).
* [http://www.gr0w.com/articles/press/growsearch_launched_press_release/ GrowSearch Launched (Press Release)] uses an hCard to provide Press Contact Point.
* The [http://www.arborday.org/ National Arbor Day Foundation] has started using hCards for their [http://arborday.org/programs/conferences/communityforestry/index.cfm upcoming] [http://arborday.org/programs/conferences/hazardtrees-treeplanting/ conferences].
* [http://www.multipack.co.uk The Multipack] has numerous hCards, especially on the [http://www.multipack.co.uk/members/ members page], as well as the next meeting information.
* [http://deadringrancor.livejournal.com/ Justin McDowell] used an hCard when [http://deadringrancor.livejournal.com/221332.html referring to a person in his blog post]
* [http://davecardwell.co.uk/cv/ Dave Cardwell] has included his hCard in his Curriculum Vitae.
* [http://blog.usweb.com/ Shaun Shull] has written a great post on [http://blog.usweb.com/archives/how-microformats-affect-search-engine-optimization-seo How Microformats Affect SEO], and has included his [[hcard|hCard]] as one of the examples.
* [http://www.thefutureoftheweb.com/ Jesse Skinner] has written a simple [http://www.thefutureoftheweb.com/blog/2006/1/hcard tutorial with examples]
* [http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html 2006 W3C Technical Plenary Week] has marked up the venue, contacts, and program committee members all with hCard.
* [http://www.avf-nexus.co.uk AVF-Nexus] have a hCard on their [http://www.avf-nexus.co.uk/contact/ contact page] - (by [http://creation.uk.com Creation"])
* [http://www.thefantasticos.com/andrew/ Andrew White] posted [http://www.thefantasticos.com/andrew/index.php/my-hcard/ his hCard] and [http://www.thefantasticos.com/andrew/index.php/62/microformats-the-should-have-been-obvious-web-dev-tool/ blogged about it].
* [http://www.2sheds.ru Oleg "2sheds" Kourapov] in his [http://www.2sheds.ru/blog/ blog] ([http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http://www.2sheds.ru/blog X2V]) has turned personal profile into hCard ([http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http://www.2sheds.ru/blog/hcard.html X2V]) and his blogroll - into combination XFN/hCards ([http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http://www.2sheds.ru/blog/friends.html X2V])
* [http://www.approveddesign.co.uk Approved Design Consultancy] have a hCard on their [http://www.approveddesign.co.uk/about/contact/ contact page] as well as on their [http://www.approveddesign.co.uk/about/people/ people section] - (by [http://creation.uk.com Creation"])
* [http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ Ben Buchanan] and [http://www.griffith.edu.au/cgi-bin/phone_search.pl?string=colin+morris&format=search Colin Morris] have [http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2006/01/griffith-phonebook-adds-hcard-and.html implemented hCards and vCards] for the [http://www.griffith.edu.au Griffith University] [http://www.griffith.edu.au/find/content_phonebook.html online phone book]. Eg. [http://www.griffith.edu.au/cgi-bin/phone_search.pl?string=ben+buchanan&format=search Ben's vCard] and [http://www.griffith.edu.au/cgi-bin/phone_search.pl?string=colin+morris&format=search Colin's vCard]
* WWF-Australia [http://wwf.org.au/about/contactdetails/ contact details page]
* [http://rasterweb.net/raster/ Pete Prodoehl] used the hCard format on his [http://rasterweb.net/raster/contact.html Contact page]
* [http://alexander-mette.de amette] uses the hCard format in a module of his TikiWiki powered blog
* [http://staff.washington.edu/oren/weblog2/ Oren Sreebny] has an hcard on his blog main index template
* [http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~zippy/ Patrick Tufts] has an hCard on his homepage.
* [http://ascii20.blogspot.com/ Mathias Kolehmainen and Jamie Taylor] have hCards on their weblog.
* [http://www.hoppsan.org/jamesb/blogger/ Barnaby James] has a hCard on his weblog.
* [http://esa-education.com/schools/map ESA Education] Uses hCards for their 100+ schools and each of the individual school sites.
* [http://www.thereisnocat.com/#vcard Ralph Brandi] has added an hCard to the sidebar of his weblog as a result of Tantek Çelik's portion of the Microformats presentation at SXSW 2006.
* [http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/ephone/ Pierce College] -- community college directory uses hCard on all individual directory entries.
* [http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2006/ the Institutional Web Management Workshop 2006] have marked up all their [http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2006/committee/ speakers with hCard].
* http://wikitravel.org/en/Singapore/Sentosa. Wikitravel is experimenting with hcard on its travel guides. This guide uses hcard for all its business listings. More info on http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:Listings.
* [http://www.musik-erber.de/ Musik-Erber] uses to present contact information at the sidebar
* [http://cdevroe.com/about/#contact Colin D. Devroe] uses hCard to display his contact information on his about page
* The ECS (Scool of Electronics and Computer Science at the University of Southampton) [http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/people People Pages] use vCard. Contact cjg@ecs.soton.ac.uk if there's any bugs.
* [http://www.southwestern.edu/~ramseyp Pat Ramsey] has his contact information on his blog marked up with hCard. Contact [mailto:ramsey.pat@gmail.com ramsey.pat@gmail.com] if there are any bugs there.
* [http://www.meryl.net/ Meryl K. Evans] has a hidden hCard on her homepage.
* [http://www.vyre.com/company/contact-us/ VYRE] is a CMS development company with a "contact us" hCard
* [http://www.lefdal.cc/info.php Alf Kåre Lefdal] uses hCard in the markup of his contact information
* [http://www.pignwhistle.com.au/ Pig N Whistle, a chain of pubs in Brisbane, Australia] is using hcard to mark up all the contact pages for its outlets and head office
* [http://kollitsch.de/ Patrick Kollitsch] has built his personal Profil as hCard
* [http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/dspar/ Harvard Business School] has hCards on their faculty pages

=== Examples ===
* [http://shiftingpixel.com/about/the-artist shifting pixel photoblog] has published an hCard.
* [http://thoughtport.blogspot.com/ Aiden Kenny] hasn't published his hCard yet, but he has [http://thoughtport.blogspot.com/2005/07/elemental-particles-of-web.html published his hCard icon]: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4224/444/320/AK-Hcard-icon.gif
* [http://thedredge.org Andy Hume] uses hCards to mark-up the names and URLs of commentors on his blog, e.g. his [http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ blog post on "Using hCards in your blog"].
* [http://www.bidclix.com/ BidClix]'s [http://www.bidclix.com/AboutContact.html Contact BidClix] page has it's ''contact info'' marked up with an hCard.
* [http://suda.co.uk/ Brian Suda] has managed to embed a photo in [http://suda.co.uk/contact/ his hCard] through the [http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2397.txt data uri scheme] by converting the image to BASE64 code. View the Source to see how this is accomplished. [http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http%3A//suda.co.uk/contact/ The X2V link] will extract the image and encode it for a vCard which will be displayed in some address book applications.
* [http://cinematreasures.org Cinema Treasures] uses hCard to markup venue information for 10,000+ movie theaters.
* [http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/ Dan Connolly's index of events and talks] has hCards for many of the people he has met at those events. In Mar 2006, he moved a bunch of hotel contact info from his PDA to this page; it's now up to 32 hCards.
* [http://doncrowley.blogspot.com/ Don Crowley] has published [http://www.crowley.nl/hcard.html his hCard] as well as a nifty hCard button: http://www.crowley.nl/images/hcard.png
* [http://loadaveragezero.com/hnav/contact.php Douglas W. Clifton] added all types of contact information
* [http://eventful.com Eventful] publishes all of its venue information pages with embedded hCards.
* [http://www.iowamilitaryveteransband.com/members/ Iowa Military Veterans Band Contacts] - 95 hCards [http://weblog.randomchaos.com/archive/2005/10/24/Microformats/ marked up by Scott Reynen]
* [http://JackWolfgang.blogspot.com Jack L. Wolfgang II] has [http://jack.randomata.com/resume/ converted the addresses in his resume to hCards].
* [http://www.efas.fupl.asso.fr/efas/_Mathieu-Drouet_.html Mathieu Drouet] and [http://www.efas.fupl.asso.fr/efas/_Annie-Leger_.html Annie Leger] both have hCards
* [http://www.ndunn.com Neil Dunn] has published his rather [http://www.ndunn.com/2005/10/7/hCard good looking hCard]
* [http://www.oliverbrown.me.uk/ Oliver Brown] ha

== Implementations ==
This section is '''informative'''.

The following implementations have been developed which either generate or parse hCards. If you have an hCard implementation, feel free to add it to the top of this list. Once the list grows too big, we'll make a separate wiki page.
* [http://placenamehere.com/mf/nnwextract/ Extract Microformats] is a script for NetNewsWire that supports extracting hCard and hCalendar data in blog posts (via technorati service). Written by [[User:ChrisCasciano|Chris Casciano]]
* [http://allinthehead.com/hkit/ hKit] is an open source PHP 5 parsing library with support for hCard.
* [http://kitchen.technorati.com/search Technorati Microformats Search] indexes [[hcard|hCard]], [[hcalendar|hCalendar]], and [[hreview|hReview]] as [http://tantek.com/log/2006/05.html#d31t1802 announced by Tantek].
** list of pages with indexing Issues so they can be looked into as to why data is not being extracted
** suda.co.uk/contact
** multipack.co.uk

* [http://www.webstandards.org/action/dwtf/microformats/ Dreamweaver Extension suite] from the [http://webstandards.org/ Web Standards Project] enables the authoring of hCards from within Dreamweaver 8.
* [http://scooch.gr0w.com/ Scooch] is a slide show and presentation creator that generates a [[hCard]] for individual slide show authors and comment authors with a CSS button to parse and download via [http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ X2V]. Also uses [[hReview]] for slide ratings and [[rel-tag]] for categories.
* [http://blog.codeeg.com/2006/03/20/flock-tails-flocktails/ Flocktails] - port of Tails extension for Flock 0.5.12 that looks for hCards, hCalendar, xFolk and hReview and tosses them into a handy topbar
*[http://opensource.reevoo.com/2006/03/08/release-uformats-12/ uformats] is a ruby library that can parse [[hCalendar]], [[hCard]], [[hReview]] and [[rel-tag]]
* [http://blog.codeeg.com/tails-firefox-extension/ Tails] is a Firefox Extension that will display the presence and details of microformats ([[hcard|hCard]], [[hcalendar|hCalendar]], [[hreview|hReview]], [[xfolk|xFolk]]) on a webpage. [https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2240/ Tails Export] is an extended version.
* [http://www.stripytshirt.co.uk/features/firefox/smartzilla Smartzilla is a Firefox Extension] that finds hCards on web pages and lets you add them to your addressbook.
* [http://placenamehere.com/TXP/pnh_mf/ pnh_mf] is a plugin for [http://textpattern.com/ Textpattern] that supports embedding hCard and other microformats in templates and blog posts. Written by [http://placenamehere.com/ Chris Casciano].
* There is [http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/68755089/ evidence of built-in hCard support in the Konqueror browser]. Specifically, Konqueror 3.5, in KDE 3.5 (kubuntu Breezy w/ update).
* There is [http://tagcamp.org/index.cgi?ContactList evidence of a kwiki plugin for hCards]. Update: the [http://svn.kwiki.org/cwest/Kwiki-hCard/ hCard kwiki plugin svn repository]. See the [http://microwiki.caseywest.com/index.cgi?hCard documentation of the hCard kwiki plugin].
* [http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ X2V] is a bookmarklet that parses hCard and produces a .vcf (vCard) stream. Note: needs to be updated as the spec is refined
* [http://www.stripytshirt.co.uk Duncan Walker] has built [http://www.stripytshirt.co.uk/features/firefox/smartzilla a Firefox extension] that gets hCard data from a webpage, uses Brian Suda's XSL (locally) to transform it to vcard format and opens the resulting .vcf file.
* [http://george.hotelling.net/90percent/ George] has written a [http://george.hotelling.net/90percent/geekery/greasemonkey_and_microformats.php Greasemonkey user script] that detects hCards and allows users to easily add them to their address book application. Relies on the X2V web service to do the conversion.
* [http://inside.glnetworks.de/ Martin Rehfeld] has updated the work of [http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/ David Janes] and produced a [[Greasemonkey]] [http://inside.glnetworks.de/2006/06/05/microformats-have-arrived-in-firefox-15-greasemonkey-06/ script] that finds many microformat elements, including hCards, and [http://blog.davidjanes.com/mtarchives/2005_08.html#003379 provides a popup menu of actions]. The hCard to vCard conversion is done internally within the script. ''This will work with FireFox 1.5+/GreaseMonkey 0.6.4+ now.''
* [http://diveintomark.org/ Mark Pilgrim] has also written an [http://diveintomark.org/projects/greasemonkey/hcard/ hCard parser Greasemonkey user script]. It is self-contained and does not rely on the X2V web service.
* [http://www.oliverbrown.me.uk/2005/09/03/a-working-microformats-extension-to-simplexml/ Oliver Brown] has written an "extension" to [http://www.php.net/simplexml SimpleXML] that gives simple access to hCard information in PHP 5.
* [http://thedredge.org/ Andrew D. Hume] has built a system (Wordpress plugin?) for [http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ using hcards in your blog] to represent people leaving comments on blog posts.
* The [http://tantek.com/microformats/hcard-creator.html hCard creator] is a very simple, yet illustrative, open source user interface / form / script which creates an hCard in real-time as you type in a set of contact information.
* [http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629.xslt rfc2629.xslt] now attempts to generate hCard information ([http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc2629 RFC2629] is an XML format for authoring RFCs and Internet Drafts, see [http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629xslt/rfc2629xslt.html example document])
* [http://tantek.com/microformats/buddylist2hcards.html iChat buddy list to hCards] - Open source AppleScript to automatically convert one's buddy list in the MacOSX iChat AIM client into a valid XHTML 1.0 Strict list of hCards.
* [http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/ palmagent] is a collection of palmpilot and sidekick tools. It includes X2V derivatives xhtml2hcard.xsl and toICal.xsl plus some [http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/hcardTest.html hcardTest] materials
* [http://www.openpsa.org/ OpenPsa 2.x] CRM application uses hCard for all person listings. The widget is [http://www.midgard-project.org/midcom-permalink-922834501b71daad856f35ec593c7a6d reusable across Midgard CMS]
* [http://www.metonymie.com Emiliano Martínez Luque] has written an experimental [http://www.metonymie.com/hCard_extract/app.html hCard finder and structured search application] that finds hCards within a given set of URLs and returns the ones that match the specified search criteria.
* [http://randomchaos.com/microformats/base/ Microformat Base] is an open-source PHP microformat aggregation crawler, currently recognizing hreview, hcalendar, and hcard.

== Additional Applications ==
This section is '''informative'''.

There are numerous potential additional uses and applications for hCards on the Web. The following are merely a few thoughts and possibilities that folks have come up with:

* As an open standard/format for [http://www.gravatar.com/ Gravatars].
* Marking up individual authors of blog posts on a group blog
* Marking up people's names and URLs in a blogroll
* Any reference to people in blog posts (e.g. when citing them, or referencing them, or describing them, by name).
* ...

== References ==
=== Normative References ===
* [http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/ XHTML 1.0 SE]
* [http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt vCard RFC2426]

=== Informative References ===
* [http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/rfc2426 HTML reformatted version of RFC2426]
* [http://w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1 CSS1]
* [http://tantek.com/log/2004/09.html#hcard hCard term introduced and defined on the Web, 20040930]
* [http://wiki.oreillynet.com/foocamp04/index.cgi?SimpleSemanticFormats FOO Camp 2004 Simple Semantic Formats presentation, 20040910]
* Contributed from http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/hCard.
* [http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11 XHTML 1.1]

==== Specifications That Use hCard ====
* [[adr]]
* [[geo]]
* [[hcalendar|hCalendar]]
* [[hreview|hReview]]

==== Similar Work ====
* [http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceBetterPersonElement Atom PaceBetterPersonElement]
* [http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0054.html JEP-0054: vcard-temp]

== Related Pages ==
* [http://microformats.org/code/hcard/creator hCard creator] ([[hcard-creator-feedback|feedback]]) - create your own hCard.
* [[hcard-authoring|hCard authoring]] - learn how to add hCard markup to your existing contact info.
* [[hcard-faq|hCard FAQ]] - If you have any questions about hCard, check here, and if you don't find answers, add your questions!
* [[hcard-parsing|hCard parsing]] - Normatively details of how to parse hCards.
* [[hcard-issues|hCard issues]] - Please add any issues with the specification to the issues page.
* [[hcard-profile|hCard profile]] - The XMDP profile for hCard

This specification is a work in progress. As additional aspects are discussed, understood, and written, they will be added. These thoughts, issues, and questions are kept in separate pages.

* [[hcard-brainstorming|hCard Brainstorming]] - where we are keeping our brainstorms and other explorations relating to hCard
* [[hcard-tests|hCard tests]] - a wiki page with actual embedded hCards to try parsing.

== Further Reading ==
* [http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/ Digital Web Magazine: Microformats Primer] by Garrett Dimon has a good intro to hCard
* [http://24ways.org/advent/practical-microformats-with-hcard Practical Microformats with hCard] by Drew McLellan
* [http://thedredge.org/ Andrew D. Hume] has written a blog post on [http://usabletype.com/articles/2005/usable-microformats/ usable microformats] which discusses hCard
* [http://www.thefutureoftheweb.com/blog/2006/1/hcard Jesse Skinner's introduction to hCard]
* [http://blog.usweb.com/ Shaun Shull's] great post on [http://blog.usweb.com/archives/how-microformats-affect-search-engine-optimization-seo How Microformats Affect SEO], including his [[hcard|hCard]] as an example.
* See also [http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/referer.html blogs discussing this page] and the [http://technorati.com/tags/hcard hCard tag]

cite-rel

2006-02-21T21:43:28Z

EranGloben: updated link to XMDP profile

= Cite-rel Draft Specification 2006–02–21 =

=== Authors ===
* EranGloben
* RyanKing

=== Acknowledgements ===
Thanks to Tantek Çelik for his inspiration and help with the original [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ hVia specification] which eventually evolved into this.

=== Copyright ===
This specification is (C) 2005-2006 by the authors. However, the authors intend to submit this specification to a standards body with a liberal copyright/licensing policy such as the GMPG (http://gmpg.org/), IETF (http://ietf.org/), and/or W3C (http://w3.org). Anyone wishing to contribute should read their copyright principles, policies and licenses (e.g. the GMPG Principles (http://gmpg.org/principles)) and agree to them, including licensing of all contributions under all required licenses (e.g. CC-by 1.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/1.0/) and later), before contributing.

=== Patents ===
This specification is subject to a royalty free patent policy, e.g. per the W3C Patent Policy (http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/), and IETF RFC3667 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3667.txt) & RFC3668 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3668.txt).

== Abstract ==
This document is the initial draft for the proposed cite-rel microformat. The author(s) wish to encourage anyone reading this document to offer their feedback, critique or opinion regarding the proposed microformat. You may do so on the distributed-discussion-issues page.

cite-rel is one of several microformats. By adding rel values to an XHTML CITE tag, a blog post (for example) can indicate its place in a distributed conversation.

Sample Simon said in
<cite class="rev-reply">
<a href="http://example.com/blog/?p=1">Example post</a>
</cite>

The author indicates that the post containing the above markup is in reply to the post at http://example.com/blog/?p=1
This assertion will typically apply to a single blog post (or other such element in an online discussion forum).

Other relationships between pages or posts are also possible, for example via links, updates of previous versions and re-blogging (or forwarding) of content.

== Scope ==
Cite-rel is specifically designed for tracking distributed conversations carried out over several online discussion forums.

This document does not cover issues related to describing blogs, defining the exact scope of a blog post and other meta-data related to it or proper formats for citation.

== Format ==
===In general===

The general structure of cite-rel is based on simple XHTML building blocks:

<cite id="ID" class="RELATION"><a href="SOURCE">source</a></cite>
<blockquote cite="#ID">
quoted text
</blockquote>

The intended semantic meaning of the above structure is “this document cites the document referenced in the link. The relationship between is as described by RELATION. The authors believe that this is a good general format for simple HTML citations. Optionally you may express the connection between the quoted text and the cited source by using the "cite" attribute in the quote/blockquote element.

===Relationship values===
Cite-rel covers the following possible relationships between documents:
* Via – a hat-tip or via link, commonly used by bloggers to give credit to someone for providing the information to the blogger.
* Reply – a reply, as one might see in Email or Usenet discussions.
* Forward – repeating a post or part of a post as one might forward an Email message.
* Update – an updated version as one might see in published standards.

All the above relationships (besides via) can be used on both original and follow-up post. To make the relationship explicitly clear we use rel and rev prefixes on those relationships in the same manner that one might use a rel or rev attribute. The resulting relationship class names are as follows.
* via
* rev-reply (this document is in reply to the cited document)
* rel-reply (the cited document is in reply to this one)
* rev-forward
* rel-forward
* rev-update
* rel-update

== Examples ==
Via: <cite class="via">
<a href="http://example.com/blog/post=17"> Mr. Example </a>
</cite>

In reply to <cite class="rev-reply">
<a href="http://Example.com/your-blog-annoys-me">
this post</a></cite>
by <a href="http://theRyanKing.com/"> Ryan King </a>.
*INSERT FLAME HERE*

This is an update to my
<cite id="cow_cite" class="rev-update">
<a href="http://Example.com/blog/?post=17">previous post</a>
</cite>
on this topic where I claimed that:
<blockquote cite="#cow_cite">
Cows can fly.
</blockquote>
Well, I now have proof!

Ryan had some
<cite class="rel-reply">
<a href="http://theryanking.com/blog/?post=1">
additional ideas
</a>
</cite>
about the format.

== XMDP profile ==
see [[cite-rel-profile|XMDP Profile]]

== Implementations ==
This section is informative. The following implementations have been developed which either generate or parse cite-rel. If you have a cite-rel implementation, feel free to add it to the top of this list. Once the list grows too big, we'll make a separate wiki page.
* ...

=== References ===
Normative References
* HTML 4 (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/)
* XHTML (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/)
* XMDP (http://gmpg.org/xmdp/)
Informative References
* This document was originally cloned from the rel-directory specification.
* Distributed-conversation-examples
* Distributed-conversation-brainstorming

=== Commentary ===
For discussion of cite-rel see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] and [[distributed-conversation]].

CiteRelXmdpProfile

2006-02-21T21:42:44Z

EranGloben: CiteRelXmdpProfile moved to cite-rel-profile

#REDIRECT [[cite-rel-profile]]

cite-rel-profile

2006-02-21T21:39:45Z

EranGloben: created first draft version of cite-rel xmdp profile

==cite-rel Meta Data Profile==
===Authors===
* Eran Globen
* Ryan King

===Status===
This document and the profile included in it are still in draft status. As such they are subject to change and modification at any time.

===Profile===
The authors believe this profile provides a set of class attribute values sufficient to be used in working implementations of cit-rel. This profile is still in draft status and therefore is subject to change as cite-rel evolves.
<pre>
<dl class="profile">
<dt>class</dt>
<dd>
<a rel="help" href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-class">
HTML4 definition of the 'class' attribute.</a> This meta data profile defines
some 'class' attribute values (class names) and their meanings as suggested
by a <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-htmllink-970328#profile">draft of
"Hypertext Links in HTML"</a>.

All values are defined according to the semantics defined in the
<a href="http://microformats.org/wiki/cite-rel">cite-rel specification</a>

<dl>
<dt>via</dt>
<dd>
Indicates a hat-tip or via link.
</dd>
<dt>rev-reply</dt>
<dd>
Indicates a reply relationship.
The linking document is in reply to the target document.
</dd>
<dt>rev-forward</dt>
<dd>
Indicates forwarding or re-publishing a document.
The linking document forwards the target document.
</dd>
<dt>rev-update</dt>
<dd>
Indicates an updated version.
The linking document is an update to the target document.
</dd>
<dt>rel-reply</dt>
<dd>
Indicates a reply relationship.
The target document is in reply to the linking document.
</dd>
<dt>rel-forward</dt>
<dd>
Indicates forwarding or re-publishing a document.
The target document forwards the linking document.
</dd>
<dt>rel-update</dt>
<dd>
Indicates an updated version.
The target document is an update to the linking document.
</dd>
</dl>
</dd>
</dl>
</pre>

distributed-conversation

2006-02-21T21:17:01Z

EranGloben: added link to spec

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an overview page page for the discussion about Distributed Conversation microformats. Currently this page is place-holder and serves as a hub for other pages on this topic.
* [[cite-rel| Draft Spec]]
* [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming| Brainstorming and discussion]]
* [[distributed-conversation-examples| Examples of markup from the web]]
* [[distributed-conversation-formats| Related formats]]

cite-rel

2006-02-21T21:16:32Z

EranGloben: created first draft version of cite-rel spec

= Cite-rel Draft Specification 2006–02–21 =

=== Authors ===
* EranGloben
* RyanKing

=== Acknowledgements ===
Thanks to Tantek Çelik for his inspiration and help with the original [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ hVia specification] which eventually evolved into this.

=== Copyright ===
This specification is (C) 2005-2006 by the authors. However, the authors intend to submit this specification to a standards body with a liberal copyright/licensing policy such as the GMPG (http://gmpg.org/), IETF (http://ietf.org/), and/or W3C (http://w3.org). Anyone wishing to contribute should read their copyright principles, policies and licenses (e.g. the GMPG Principles (http://gmpg.org/principles)) and agree to them, including licensing of all contributions under all required licenses (e.g. CC-by 1.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/1.0/) and later), before contributing.

=== Patents ===
This specification is subject to a royalty free patent policy, e.g. per the W3C Patent Policy (http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/), and IETF RFC3667 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3667.txt) & RFC3668 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3668.txt).

== Abstract ==
This document is the initial draft for the proposed cite-rel microformat. The author(s) wish to encourage anyone reading this document to offer their feedback, critique or opinion regarding the proposed microformat. You may do so on the distributed-discussion-issues page.

cite-rel is one of several microformats. By adding rel values to an XHTML CITE tag, a blog post (for example) can indicate its place in a distributed conversation.

Sample Simon said in
<cite class="rev-reply">
<a href="http://example.com/blog/?p=1">Example post</a>
</cite>

The author indicates that the post containing the above markup is in reply to the post at http://example.com/blog/?p=1
This assertion will typically apply to a single blog post (or other such element in an online discussion forum).

Other relationships between pages or posts are also possible, for example via links, updates of previous versions and re-blogging (or forwarding) of content.

== Scope ==
Cite-rel is specifically designed for tracking distributed conversations carried out over several online discussion forums.

This document does not cover issues related to describing blogs, defining the exact scope of a blog post and other meta-data related to it or proper formats for citation.

== Format ==
===In general===

The general structure of cite-rel is based on simple XHTML building blocks:

<cite id="ID" class="RELATION"><a href="SOURCE">source</a></cite>
<blockquote cite="#ID">
quoted text
</blockquote>

The intended semantic meaning of the above structure is “this document cites the document referenced in the link. The relationship between is as described by RELATION. The authors believe that this is a good general format for simple HTML citations. Optionally you may express the connection between the quoted text and the cited source by using the "cite" attribute in the quote/blockquote element.

===Relationship values===
Cite-rel covers the following possible relationships between documents:
* Via – a hat-tip or via link, commonly used by bloggers to give credit to someone for providing the information to the blogger.
* Reply – a reply, as one might see in Email or Usenet discussions.
* Forward – repeating a post or part of a post as one might forward an Email message.
* Update – an updated version as one might see in published standards.

All the above relationships (besides via) can be used on both original and follow-up post. To make the relationship explicitly clear we use rel and rev prefixes on those relationships in the same manner that one might use a rel or rev attribute. The resulting relationship class names are as follows.
* via
* rev-reply (this document is in reply to the cited document)
* rel-reply (the cited document is in reply to this one)
* rev-forward
* rel-forward
* rev-update
* rel-update

== Examples ==
Via: <cite class="via">
<a href="http://example.com/blog/post=17"> Mr. Example </a>
</cite>

In reply to <cite class="rev-reply">
<a href="http://Example.com/your-blog-annoys-me">
this post</a></cite>
by <a href="http://theRyanKing.com/"> Ryan King </a>.
*INSERT FLAME HERE*

This is an update to my
<cite id="cow_cite" class="rev-update">
<a href="http://Example.com/blog/?post=17">previous post</a>
</cite>
on this topic where I claimed that:
<blockquote cite="#cow_cite">
Cows can fly.
</blockquote>
Well, I now have proof!

Ryan had some
<cite class="rel-reply">
<a href="http://theryanking.com/blog/?post=1">
additional ideas
</a>
</cite>
about the format.

== XMDP profile ==
see [[CiteRelXmdpProfile|XMDP Profile]]

== Implementations ==
This section is informative. The following implementations have been developed which either generate or parse cite-rel. If you have a cite-rel implementation, feel free to add it to the top of this list. Once the list grows too big, we'll make a separate wiki page.
* ...

=== References ===
Normative References
* HTML 4 (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/)
* XHTML (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/)
* XMDP (http://gmpg.org/xmdp/)
Informative References
* This document was originally cloned from the rel-directory specification.
* Distributed-conversation-examples
* Distributed-conversation-brainstorming

=== Commentary ===
For discussion of cite-rel see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] and [[distributed-conversation]].

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-02-21T00:51:57Z

EranGloben: /* Moving Forward - added resolution

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed online conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

[[distributed-conversation-examples]]

== Note for general text citations ==

This page is all about hyperlink citations, either explicity through the use of an <code><a href></code> or a mostly hidden "cite" attribute on the <code><blockquote></code> and <code><q></code> elements.

For general text citations, please take a look at:
* [[cite-examples]], [[cite-formats]], [[cite-brainstorming]]

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org W3C] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:::: That is a very good point Andy. Thus we should define rel-cite compatibly, and then give attribution and informatively reference XHTML2. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

== Moving Forward ==
Based on the examples found in my research, previous formats and discussions with several people I see the following possibilities for this format.

'''Option 1'''
<cite class=”foo”><a href=”source url”>source title</a></cite>
<blockquote>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 2a'''
<blockquote cite=”sourceurl” class=”foo”>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 2b'''
<a href=”source url”>source title</a>
<blockquote cite=”sourceurl” class=”foo”>
Qouted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 3'''
<a href=”source url” rev=”cite/via”>source title</a>
<blockquote>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Notes'''
# In the preceding examples you may substitute <Q> for <BLOCKQUOTE>
# Options 1 and 2 are not necessarily mutually-exclusive.
# In both 1 and 2 replace foo with the appropriate class name (e.g. via, rev-reply, rel-update, etc.)

'''Discussion'''

Option 1 is based on Tantek’s suggestion in [http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ The Elements of Meaningful XHTML] and was reached at independently by Ryan King (see [[distributed-conversation-examples| examples page]]). It seems to imply that the current document is citing the entirty of the linked document.

Option 2a is based on existing and emerging HTML standards and some existing patterns of use. To make the relationship explicit, the class attribute is used but this can be replaced by a rel/rev attribute as soon as one is introduced in quote elements. This option is currently problematic as no user agent I am aware of properly exposes the value of the cite attribute to the user.

Option 2b tries to solve that problem by adding a link to the cited document. This solution has the obvious disadvantage of repeating data but will evolve naturally into option 2a as soon as user agents improve their handling of cite attributes.

Option 3 is based on the cite rel value introduced in several standards and the via rel value introduced in atom. It builds on what seems to be the most popular format in use. Caveats:
* Given the existence of the CITE element it seems that the cite rel value is redundant although it appears that it will become a part of upcoming standards.
* Another problem with this format is that the cite and via values are not specific enough. Using this format in a more precise manner will require using non-standard rel values.

'''Current Resolution'''

After discussion the above options were converged into the following syntax:

<cite id="$cite.id$" class="$relationship$"><a href="$source.url$">source title</a></cite>
<blockquote cite="#$cite.id$">
Quoted text
</blockquote>

The use of the cite attribute connectes the blockquote (or quote) element with the appropriate cite. Use of this feature is optional.

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
* Usenet discussions used the references field which includes ALL referenced posts with the one replied to last in a space separated list.
** http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html See section 2.2.5
* [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6 has the following:
** In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
** References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
** See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
** Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
** Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.
* Try Googling around "IBIS" (Issue-Based Information Systems), it's an approach to collaborative problem solving that looks very like discussion threads, see also [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage BlueOxen Wiki], [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MailingLists BlueOxen Mailing Lists]

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-31T01:19:04Z

EranGloben: fixed link

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed online conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

[[distributed-conversation-examples]]

== Note for general text citations ==

This page is all about hyperlink citations, either explicity through the use of an <code><a href></code> or a mostly hidden "cite" attribute on the <code><blockquote></code> and <code><q></code> elements.

For general text citations, please take a look at:
* [[cite-examples]], [[cite-formats]], [[cite-brainstorming]]

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org W3C] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:::: That is a very good point Andy. Thus we should define rel-cite compatibly, and then give attribution and informatively reference XHTML2. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

== Moving Forward ==
Based on the examples found in my research, previous formats and discussions with several people I see the following possibilities for this format.

'''Option 1'''
<cite class=”foo”><a href=”source url”>source title</a></cite>
<blockquote>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 2a'''
<blockquote cite=”sourceurl” class=”foo”>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 2b'''
<a href=”source url”>source title</a>
<blockquote cite=”sourceurl” class=”foo”>
Qouted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 3'''
<a href=”source url” rev=”cite/via”>source title</a>
<blockquote>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Notes'''
# In the preceding examples you may substitute <Q> for <BLOCKQUOTE>
# Options 1 and 2 are not necessarily mutually-exclusive.
# In both 1 and 2 replace foo with the appropriate class name (e.g. via, rev-reply, rel-update, etc.)

'''Discussion'''
Option 1 is based on Tantek’s suggestion in [http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ The Elements of Meaningful XHTML] and was reached at independently by Ryan King (see [[distributed-conversation-examples| examples page]]). It seems to imply that the current document is citing the entirty of the linked document.

Option 2a is based on existing and emerging HTML standards and some existing patterns of use. To make the relationship explicit, the class attribute is used but this can be replaced by a rel/rev attribute as soon as one is introduced in quote elements. This option is currently problematic as no user agent I am aware of properly exposes the value of the cite attribute to the user.

Option 2b tries to solve that problem by adding a link to the cited document. This solution has the obvious disadvantage of repeating data but will evolve naturally into option 2a as soon as user agents improve their handling of cite attributes.

Option 3 is based on the cite rel value introduced in several standards and the via rel value introduced in atom. It builds on what seems to be the most popular format in use. Caveats:
* Given the existence of the CITE element it seems that the cite rel value is redundant although it appears that it will become a part of upcoming standards.
* Another problem with this format is that the cite and via values are not specific enough. Using this format in a more precise manner will require using non-standard rel values.

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
* Usenet discussions used the references field which includes ALL referenced posts with the one replied to last in a space separated list.
** http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html See section 2.2.5
* [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6 has the following:
** In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
** References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
** See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
** Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
** Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.
* Try Googling around "IBIS" (Issue-Based Information Systems), it's an approach to collaborative problem solving that looks very like discussion threads, see also [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage BlueOxen Wiki], [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MailingLists BlueOxen Mailing Lists]

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-31T01:16:27Z

EranGloben: trying to move forward

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed online conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

[[distributed-conversation-examples]]

== Note for general text citations ==

This page is all about hyperlink citations, either explicity through the use of an <code><a href></code> or a mostly hidden "cite" attribute on the <code><blockquote></code> and <code><q></code> elements.

For general text citations, please take a look at:
* [[cite-examples]], [[cite-formats]], [[cite-brainstorming]]

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org W3C] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:::: That is a very good point Andy. Thus we should define rel-cite compatibly, and then give attribution and informatively reference XHTML2. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

== Moving Forward ==
Based on the examples found in my research, previous formats and discussions with several people I see the following possibilities for this format.

'''Option 1'''
<cite class=”foo”><a href=”source url”>source title</a></cite>
<blockquote>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 2a'''
<blockquote cite=”sourceurl” class=”foo”>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 2b'''
<a href=”source url”>source title</a>
<blockquote cite=”sourceurl” class=”foo”>
Qouted text
</blockquote>

'''Option 3'''
<a href=”source url” rev=”cite/via”>source title</a>
<blockquote>
Quoted text
</blockquote>

'''Notes'''
# In the preceding examples you may substitute <Q> for <BLOCKQUOTE>
# Options 1 and 2 are not necessarily mutually-exclusive.
# In both 1 and 2 replace foo with the appropriate class name (e.g. via, rev-reply, rel-update, etc.)

'''Discussion'''
Option 1 is based on Tantek’s suggestion in [http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ The Elements of Meaningful XHTML] and was reached at independently by Ryan King (see [[distributed-converation-examples| examples page]). It seems to imply that the current document is citing the entirty of the linked document.

Option 2a is based on existing and emerging HTML standards and some existing patterns of use. To make the relationship explicit, the class attribute is used but this can be replaced by a rel/rev attribute as soon as one is introduced in quote elements. This option is currently problematic as no user agent I am aware of properly exposes the value of the cite attribute to the user.

Option 2b tries to solve that problem by adding a link to the cited document. This solution has the obvious disadvantage of repeating data but will evolve naturally into option 2a as soon as user agents improve their handling of cite attributes.

Option 3 is based on the cite rel value introduced in several standards and the via rel value introduced in atom. It builds on what seems to be the most popular format in use. Caveats:
* Given the existence of the CITE element it seems that the cite rel value is redundant although it appears that it will become a part of upcoming standards.
* Another problem with this format is that the cite and via values are not specific enough. Using this format in a more precise manner will require using non-standard rel values.

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
* Usenet discussions used the references field which includes ALL referenced posts with the one replied to last in a space separated list.
** http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html See section 2.2.5
* [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6 has the following:
** In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
** References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
** See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
** Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
** Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.
* Try Googling around "IBIS" (Issue-Based Information Systems), it's an approach to collaborative problem solving that looks very like discussion threads, see also [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage BlueOxen Wiki], [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MailingLists BlueOxen Mailing Lists]

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-31T00:30:32Z

EranGloben: title edit

= Distributed Conversation Examples=

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.
see [[distributed-conversation-formats]] for formats.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about
<a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">
how to build an RDF model
</a>
,rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>

When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up
afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to
replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting
an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think
this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

=== Cite attribute in blockquote or quote ===
From <cite>[http://decafbad.com/blog/2006/01/19/use-delicious-to-build-share-reading-lists Les Orcahrd's 0xdecafbad]</cite>:
<blockquote cite="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">As far as I know, the most popular link
managment tool is del.icio.us, a tool I love for its power and simplicity. del.icio.us allow you to export all your links in RSS
which is cool. So, I wrote a quick and dirty PHP script that converts this RSS export to an OPML list (see at the end of this
post).</blockquote>


Source: <a href="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">
vrypan|net|log » del.icio.us as feed manager
</a>

The cite attribute of the blockquote tag is defined in many standards but is not well supported by browsers and is therefore hidden from the user. This requires the author to repeat its value later, in the form of a link.

A similar example from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/01/25/blogging-as-religion/ Ryan King's blog]:
Intuitively, we’d expect a group to balance each other out, but
<q cite="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">
people with relatively moderate viewpoints tend to assume that their groupmates hold more extreme views,
and to alter their own views in compensation
</q>
[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">source</a>]

=== cite href ===
Another one from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/01/31/things-to-say-when-you-are-losing-a-tech-argument/ Ryan King] (hopefully this is from before he discovered Tantek's presentation about markup).

<div class="entry">
From <cite><a href="http://www.skirsch.com/humor/techarg.htm">
Things to say when you are losing a tech argument</a>
</cite>:
<blockquote>
2.That’s been proven to be O(N^2) and we need a solution that’s O(NlogN). 
15. Oh, I played with that approach back as an undergrad. Got a D, too. 
18.That’s totally inefficient on modern hardware. 
26. No, no, no. It’s fairly important that the database be in THIRD NORMAL FORM. 
28. I don’t think that’s altogether clear. Please write it up in UML for me. 
39.This is all covered in Knuth, and we don’t have time to go over it again. 
65.Yes, but we’re standardizing on XML.

</blockquote>
</div>

Ryan uses the <CITE><A href="source">source name</A></CITE> structure.

=== href inside blockquote ===
From [http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2006/01/umair_haque_on_.html Stowe Boyd]
Umair Haque is worried that a steady diet of tech.memeorandum is making him stupid:
<blockquote>
[from <a title="Bubblegeneration Strategy Lab" href="http://www.bubblegeneration.com/2006/01/problems-with-2.cfm">
The Problems with 2.0, pt 34514
</a>]

I luv Memeorandum and all it's reconstructor cousins. It's one of the first things of my reading list.
It's hugely slashed my search costs in finding new stuff.But there's a problem. Ever since I've started using
it to the point where it replaces many of my other sources, I have gotten stupider.I can feel it - I don't
think as fast, flexibly, or freely.

</blockquote>

The link to the quote's source is embedded inside the BLOCKQUOTE element as part of the text of the quote.

Main Page

2006-01-31T00:30:09Z

EranGloben: added distributed discussion to Exploratory discussions

__NOTOC__
__NOTOC__
= Microformats Wiki =

'''Please read [[how-to-play]] before making any edits.'''

'''Please read [[process]] before proposing any new microformats.'''

== Introduction ==

What are microformats? See the [http://microformats.org/about/ about page] for an overview, and the [[introduction]] page for more info. Recent [[press]] and [[presentations]] are also a good place for some background reading as well. Frequently asked questions are answered in the [[faq]].

One popular definition from our [http://microformats.org/discuss/ mailing list] is "simple conventions for embedding semantics in HTML to enable decentralized development." More precisely, microformats can be defined as:
:simple conventions
:for embedding semantic markup
::for a specific problem domain
:in human-readable (X)HTML/XML documents, Atom/RSS feeds, and "plain" XML
::that normalize existing content usage patterns
::using brief, descriptive class names
::often based on existing interoperable standards
:to enable decentralized development
::of resources, tools, and services

"Or do you just use your browser to browse? That's so 20th century." -- [http://diveintomark.org Mark Pilgrim]

== Specifications ==
[[microformats|Microformats]] open standards specifications (see also: [[implementations]])
* [[hcalendar|hCalendar]]
* [[hcard|hCard]]
* [[rel-license]]
* [[rel-nofollow]]
* [[rel-tag]]
* [[vote-links|VoteLinks]]
* [http://gmpg.org/xfn/ XFN] (see also: [[xfn-implementations]])
* [http://gmpg.org/xmdp/ XMDP]
* [[xoxo|XOXO]]

== Drafts ==
* [[adr|adr]]
* [[geo|geo]]
* [[hreview|hReview]]
* [[rel-directory]]
* [[rel-enclosure]]
* [[relpayment-research | rel-payment]]
* [[robots-exclusion|Robots Exclusion]]
* [[xfolk|xFolk]]
* [[rel-home]] {{NewMarker}}
* [[hatom|hAtom]] {{NewMarker}}

== Design Patterns ==

Design patterns give microformat authors a vocabulary for expressing their ideas consistently with what has already been done. ''If you're tempted to try your hand at writing a microformat '''[[process|read this first]]'''!''

* [[datetime-design-pattern]]
* [[class-design-pattern]]
* [[rel-design-pattern]]
* [[abbr-design-pattern]]
* [[existing-classes|class names defined across all microformats]]

== Exploratory discussions ==
Research and analysis of real-world [[examples]], existing formats, and brainstorming to motivate the microformat.
*[[attention]]
*[[blog-description-format]]
*[[blog-post-examples]], [[blog-post-formats]], [[blog-post-brainstorming]] (yields [[hatom|hAtom]])
*[[book-examples]], [[book-formats]], [[book-brainstorming]]
*[[chat-examples]]
*[[citation|citation microformat overview]], [[citation-examples]], [[citation-formats]], [[citation-brainstorming]]
*[[comments-formats]]
*[[directory-inclusion-examples]], [[directory-inclusion-formats]]. (see also [[rel-directory]])
*[[distributed-conversation]], [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]], [[distributed-conversation-examples]], [[distributed-conversation-formats]]
*[[forms-examples]]
*[[genealogy-formats]]
*[[last-modified-examples]], [[last-modified-formats]], [[last-modified-brainstorming]]
*[[listing-examples]], [[listing-formats]], [[listing-brainstorming]]
*[[location-formats]]. (see also [[adr]] and [[geo]])
*[[media-info-examples]]
*[[mfo-examples]]
*[[other-formats]]
*[[photo-note-examples]]
*[[recipe-examples]]
*[[requirements-testing]], [[requirements-testing-examples]]
*[[rest-examples]]
*[[resume-brainstorming]], [[resume-formats]]
*[[review-examples]], [[review-formats]] (yielded the [[hreview|hReview]] draft)
*[[search-results-example]]
*[[show-brainstorming]]
*[[showroll-brainstorming]]
*[[table-examples]]
*[[tagspeak-examples]]
*[[transit-table-examples]]
*[[widget-examples]], [[widget-brainstorming]]
*[[wiki-formats]]
*[[xmdp-brainstorming]] (see also [[xmdp-faq]])

== Examples ==
* [[examples]]
* [[zen-garden]] {{NewMarker}}

== Tools & Test Cases & Additional Research ==

The first place to look for examples, code, and test cases is in the pages for each individual microformat. There are only a few cross-cutting tools and services that need to process more than one microformat. This section is intended for editors, parsers, validators, test cases, and other information relevant across multiple microformats.

*[[parsing-microformats]]
*[[selected-test-cases-from-the-web]]
*[[vcard-implementations]], [[vcard-errata]]
*[[icalendar-implementations]]
*[[faqs-for-rdf]]
*[[why-are-content-standards-hard]]

== shared work areas ==
* [[buttons]] {{NewMarker}}
* [[demo]] - a page with links for quickly demonstrating microformats working in practice.
* [[events]] {{NewMarker}}
* [[to-do]]
* [[marked-for-deletion]]

== microformats wiki in other languages ==

You may read and edit microformats articles in <del>many different</del> other languages

=== microformats wiki languages with over 2 articles ===

* [[Main_Page-fr|Français (French)]]
* [[Main_Page-jp|日本語 (Japanese)]] {{NewMarker}}

=== Start a microformats wiki in another language ===

Don't see the language you want? Help translate the microformats wiki into another language!

We're still figuring this out.

For now, see the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Multilingual_coordination Wikipedia page on Multilingual coordination], and [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_start_a_new_Wikipedia How to start a new Wikipedia] for some good general tips, advice, and community conventions.

You may want to start with the list of [[stable-pages]], which are pages that are relatively stable, and have only minimal/editorial changes, which makes them much easier to keep in sync with the English versions, by using the [[Special:Watchlist|my watchlist]] feature (use it to watch the pages you've translated for changes).

Page naming: for the translated version of a page, use the same name for the page, and simply add the RFC 3066 language identifier code as a dash suffix. E.g. for the French version, [[Main_Page]] becomes [[Main_Page-fr]], and [[how-to-play]] becomes [[how-to-play-fr]].

==== more languages folks want to see ====

* Chinese: 微支付 (Microformats) (see [http://msittig.blogspot.com/2005/11/since-i-translated-schedule-of.html source of translation])

distributed-conversation

2006-01-31T00:28:00Z

EranGloben: created distributed conversation overview page.

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an overview page page for the discussion about Distributed Conversation microformats. Currently this page is place-holder and serves as a hub for other pages on this topic.

* [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming| Brainstorming and discussion]]
* [[distributed-conversation-examples| Examples of markup from the web]]
* [[distributed-conversation-formats| Related formats]]

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-31T00:16:51Z

EranGloben: /* Distributed Conversation */

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-31T00:16:24Z

EranGloben: linked to formats page.

distributed-conversation-formats

2006-01-31T00:14:35Z

EranGloben: moved from examples page.

= Distributed Conversation Formats =

== Examples of Related Formats ==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-31T00:13:41Z

EranGloben:

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-30T00:28:11Z

EranGloben: formatting.

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about
<a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">
how to build an RDF model
</a>
,rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>

When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up
afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to
replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting
an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think
this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

=== Cite attribute in blockquote or quote ===
From <cite>[http://decafbad.com/blog/2006/01/19/use-delicious-to-build-share-reading-lists Les Orcahrd's 0xdecafbad]</cite>:
<blockquote cite="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">As far as I know, the most popular link
managment tool is del.icio.us, a tool I love for its power and simplicity. del.icio.us allow you to export all your links in RSS
which is cool. So, I wrote a quick and dirty PHP script that converts this RSS export to an OPML list (see at the end of this
post).</blockquote>


Source: <a href="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">
vrypan|net|log » del.icio.us as feed manager
</a>

The cite attribute of the blockquote tag is defined in many standards but is not well supported by browsers and is therefore hidden from the user. This requires the author to repeat its value later, in the form of a link.

A similar example from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/01/25/blogging-as-religion/ Ryan King's blog]:
Intuitively, we’d expect a group to balance each other out, but
<q cite="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">
people with relatively moderate viewpoints tend to assume that their groupmates hold more extreme views,
and to alter their own views in compensation
</q>
[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">source</a>]

=== cite href ===
Another one from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/01/31/things-to-say-when-you-are-losing-a-tech-argument/ Ryan King] (hopefully this is from before he discovered Tantek's presentation about markup).

<div class="entry">
From <cite><a href="http://www.skirsch.com/humor/techarg.htm">
Things to say when you are losing a tech argument</a>
</cite>:
<blockquote>
2.That’s been proven to be O(N^2) and we need a solution that’s O(NlogN). 
15. Oh, I played with that approach back as an undergrad. Got a D, too. 
18.That’s totally inefficient on modern hardware. 
26. No, no, no. It’s fairly important that the database be in THIRD NORMAL FORM. 
28. I don’t think that’s altogether clear. Please write it up in UML for me. 
39.This is all covered in Knuth, and we don’t have time to go over it again. 
65.Yes, but we’re standardizing on XML.

</blockquote>
</div>

Ryan uses the <CITE><A href="source">source name</A></CITE> structure.

=== href inside blockquote ===
From [http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2006/01/umair_haque_on_.html Stowe Boyd]
Umair Haque is worried that a steady diet of tech.memeorandum is making him stupid:
<blockquote>
[from <a title="Bubblegeneration Strategy Lab" href="http://www.bubblegeneration.com/2006/01/problems-with-2.cfm">
The Problems with 2.0, pt 34514
</a>]

I luv Memeorandum and all it's reconstructor cousins. It's one of the first things of my reading list.
It's hugely slashed my search costs in finding new stuff.But there's a problem. Ever since I've started using
it to the point where it replaces many of my other sources, I have gotten stupider.I can feel it - I don't
think as fast, flexibly, or freely.

</blockquote>

The link to the quote's source is embedded inside the BLOCKQUOTE element as part of the text of the quote.

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-28T23:47:05Z

EranGloben: href inside blockquote

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about <a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">how to build an RDF model</a>,
rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>
When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

=== Cite attribute in blockquote or quote ===
From <cite>[http://decafbad.com/blog/2006/01/19/use-delicious-to-build-share-reading-lists Les Orcahrd's 0xdecafbad]</cite>:
<blockquote cite="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">As far as I know, the most popular link
managment tool is del.icio.us, a tool I love for its power and simplicity. del.icio.us allow you to export all your links in RSS
which is cool. So, I wrote a quick and dirty PHP script that converts this RSS export to an OPML list (see at the end of this
post).</blockquote>


Source: <a href="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">
vrypan|net|log » del.icio.us as feed manager
</a>

The cite attribute of the blockquote tag is defined in many standards but is not well supported by browsers and is therefore hidden from the user. This requires the author to repeat its value later, in the form of a link.

A similar example from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/01/25/blogging-as-religion/ Ryan King's blog]:
Intuitively, we’d expect a group to balance each other out, but
<q cite="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">
people with relatively moderate viewpoints tend to assume that their groupmates hold more extreme views,
and to alter their own views in compensation
</q>
[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">source</a>]

=== cite href ===
Another one from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/01/31/things-to-say-when-you-are-losing-a-tech-argument/ Ryan King] (hopefully this is from before he discovered Tantek's presentation about markup).

<div class="entry">
From <cite><a href="http://www.skirsch.com/humor/techarg.htm">
Things to say when you are losing a tech argument</a>
</cite>:
<blockquote>
2.That’s been proven to be O(N^2) and we need a solution that’s O(NlogN). 
15. Oh, I played with that approach back as an undergrad. Got a D, too. 
18.That’s totally inefficient on modern hardware. 
26. No, no, no. It’s fairly important that the database be in THIRD NORMAL FORM. 
28. I don’t think that’s altogether clear. Please write it up in UML for me. 
39.This is all covered in Knuth, and we don’t have time to go over it again. 
65.Yes, but we’re standardizing on XML.

</blockquote>
</div>

Ryan uses the <CITE><A href="source">source name</A></CITE> structure.

=== href inside blockquote ===
From [http://www.stoweboyd.com/message/2006/01/umair_haque_on_.html Stowe Boyd]
Umair Haque is worried that a steady diet of tech.memeorandum is making him stupid:
<blockquote>
[from <a title="Bubblegeneration Strategy Lab" href="http://www.bubblegeneration.com/2006/01/problems-with-2.cfm">
The Problems with 2.0, pt 34514
</a>]

I luv Memeorandum and all it's reconstructor cousins. It's one of the first things of my reading list.
It's hugely slashed my search costs in finding new stuff.But there's a problem. Ever since I've started using
it to the point where it replaces many of my other sources, I have gotten stupider.I can feel it - I don't
think as fast, flexibly, or freely.

</blockquote>

The link to the quote's source is embedded inside the BLOCKQUOTE element as part of the text of the quote.

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-28T23:11:40Z

EranGloben: added cite href examples

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about <a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">how to build an RDF model</a>,
rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>
When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

=== Cite attribute in blockquote or quote ===
From <cite>[http://decafbad.com/blog/2006/01/19/use-delicious-to-build-share-reading-lists Les Orcahrd's 0xdecafbad]</cite>:
<blockquote cite="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">As far as I know, the most popular link
managment tool is del.icio.us, a tool I love for its power and simplicity. del.icio.us allow you to export all your links in RSS
which is cool. So, I wrote a quick and dirty PHP script that converts this RSS export to an OPML list (see at the end of this
post).</blockquote>


Source: <a href="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">
vrypan|net|log » del.icio.us as feed manager
</a>

The cite attribute of the blockquote tag is defined in many standards but is not well supported by browsers and is therefore hidden from the user. This requires the author to repeat its value later, in the form of a link.

A similar example from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/01/25/blogging-as-religion/ Ryan King's blog]:
Intuitively, we’d expect a group to balance each other out, but
<q cite="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">
people with relatively moderate viewpoints tend to assume that their groupmates hold more extreme views,
and to alter their own views in compensation
</q>
[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">source</a>]

=== cite href ===
Another one from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/01/31/things-to-say-when-you-are-losing-a-tech-argument/ Ryan King] (hopefully this is from before he discovered Tantek's presentation about markup).

<div class="entry">
From <cite><a href="http://www.skirsch.com/humor/techarg.htm">
Things to say when you are losing a tech argument</a>
</cite>:
<blockquote>
2.That’s been proven to be O(N^2) and we need a solution that’s O(NlogN). 
15. Oh, I played with that approach back as an undergrad. Got a D, too. 
18.That’s totally inefficient on modern hardware. 
26. No, no, no. It’s fairly important that the database be in THIRD NORMAL FORM. 
28. I don’t think that’s altogether clear. Please write it up in UML for me. 
39.This is all covered in Knuth, and we don’t have time to go over it again. 
65.Yes, but we’re standardizing on XML.

</blockquote>
</div>

Ryan uses the <CITE><A href="source">source name</A></CITE> structure.

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-28T22:57:23Z

EranGloben: added example from theryanking

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about <a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">how to build an RDF model</a>,
rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>
When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

=== Cite attribute in blockquote or quote ===
From <cite>[http://decafbad.com/blog/2006/01/19/use-delicious-to-build-share-reading-lists Les Orcahrd's 0xdecafbad]</cite>:
<blockquote cite="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">As far as I know, the most popular link
managment tool is del.icio.us, a tool I love for its power and simplicity. del.icio.us allow you to export all your links in RSS
which is cool. So, I wrote a quick and dirty PHP script that converts this RSS export to an OPML list (see at the end of this
post).</blockquote>


Source: <a href="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">
vrypan|net|log » del.icio.us as feed manager
</a>

The cite attribute of the blockquote tag is defined in many standards but is not well supported by browsers and is therefore hidden from the user. This requires the author to repeat its value later, in the form of a link.

A similar example from [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/01/25/blogging-as-religion/ Ryan King's blog]:
Intuitively, we’d expect a group to balance each other out, but
<q cite="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">
people with relatively moderate viewpoints tend to assume that their groupmates hold more extreme views,
and to alter their own views in compensation
</q>
[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risky_shift">source</a>]

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-28T22:50:26Z

EranGloben: added example from decafbad

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about <a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">how to build an RDF model</a>,
rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>
When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

From <cite>[http://decafbad.com/blog/2006/01/19/use-delicious-to-build-share-reading-lists Les Orcahrd's 0xdecafbad]</cite>:
<blockquote cite="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">As far as I know, the most popular link
managment tool is del.icio.us, a tool I love for its power and simplicity. del.icio.us allow you to export all your links in RSS
which is cool. So, I wrote a quick and dirty PHP script that converts this RSS export to an OPML list (see at the end of this
post).</blockquote>


Source: <a href="http://vrypan.net/log/archives/2006/01/19/delicious-as-fedd-manager/">
vrypan|net|log » del.icio.us as feed manager
</a>

The cite attribute of the blockquote tag is defined in many standards but is not well supported by browsers and is therefore hidden from the user. This requires the author to repeat its value later, in the form of a link.

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-26T00:18:50Z

EranGloben: fixed link

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about <a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">how to build an RDF model</a>,
rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>
When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-25T23:58:23Z

EranGloben: formatting /* Author, href and blockquote */

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[citation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about <a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">how to build an RDF model</a>,
rather than an XML language:

<blockquote>
When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-25T23:55:59Z

EranGloben: added SIOC info

= Distributed Conversation =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[citation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* [[User:EranGloben|Eran Globen]]
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|Benjamin Carlyle]]
* ...

== Examples of Related Solutions==
===Email/Usenet===
Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

===Thread Description Language===
Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
TDL v3 defines the following properties:
* Property tdl:discusses - Relates a Post to a resource it talks about
* Property tdl:follows - Indicates that this resource comes no earlier than the specified resource
* Property tdl:inThread - Relates a post to a thread which includes it
* Property tdl:mentions - Indicates that this resource refers to the specified resource
* Property tdl:respondsTo - Relates a post to its parent(s) in a discussion
* Property tdl:respondsNegativelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post which it dissents from or corrects
* Property tdl:respondsPositivelyTo - Relates a post to a parent post with which it concurs

'''Discussion of TDL'''

# respondsNegativelyTo, respondsPositivelyTo are beyond the scope of this spec. They can both be implemented using vote-links.
# Without those, respondsTo remains the main connector between posts in a thread.
# mentions and discusses seem to be splitting hairs. It appears that both of them can be replaced by using the CITE tag.
# follows seems to be designed for use in a central registry that tracks threads and therefore is useless for a distributed solution.

===IBIS - Issues Based Information Systems===
Kunz's Issue Based Information Systems (IBIS) provide a framework for collaborative understanding of the major issues and implications surrounding what are described as ``wicked problems'' (problems that lack a definitive formulation). Understanding is achieved by using hypertext components to create structured arguments surrounding the issues. (<cite>[http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis Weblog Kitchen]</cite>)
* [http://dannyayers.com/xmlns/ibis/ IBIS vocabulary]
* [http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/yak/2003-12/threads.html#00191 How to start an IBIS discussion in Email]
* [http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?GraphicalIbis graphical IBIS (gIBIS)]
The hypertext model of IBIS consists of three node types:
1. issues
2. positions
3. arguments

Eight link types represent the allowable relationships between these nodes:
1. generalises
2. specialises
3. replaces
4. questions
5. is_suggested_by
6. responds_to
7. objects_to
8. supports

'''Discussion of IBIS'''

Similar to TDL, IBIS seems to tackle a bigger problem than the one discussed here.
* The different node types are not necessary for tracking a discussion thread. Tracking the flow of the conversation, the arguments and flow of ideas is a wider more complex issue than just gluing together disparate pieces of an online discussion.
* Link type such as "generalises" and "specialises" might be useful but seem to require a lot from the user. If we allow for inheritance of link type they could be used as optional parts of the format but it appears that we can do well enough without them.

=== SIOC - Semantically-Interlinked Online Communities ===
SIOC (Semantically Interlinked Online Communities) is an ontology for describing discussion forums and posts on topic threads in online community sites. This includes but is not limited to: blogs, bulletin boards, mailing lists, newsgroups, etc.
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/
* http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/

Relevant properties defined under [http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/ SIOC]:
* has_reply - This details replies or responses to this Post, which can be used for purposes of display ordering.
* reply_of - Links to a previous Post, which this Post is a reply of (or to).
* next_version - Links to the next revision of this Post.
* previous_version - Links to a previous revision of this Post.
* has_sibling - A Post may have a sibling or a twin that exists in a different Forum, but the siblings may differ in some small way (for example, language, category, etc.). The sibling of this Post only needs to have the changed information.
* sibling_of - This Post differs from its sibling in some small way. The other sibling can be used as a source for any missing data.
* attachment - A URI of the attachment related to a Post.
* related_to - Related Posts for this Post, perhaps determined implicitly from topics or references.
* is_closed - Details if this (and any children) is closed.

'''Discussion of SIOC'''
* We cannot expect the complementary relations (e.g. has_reply) to exist. This would require a more strongly connected system that we do not assume exists. Similarly for is_closed.
* next_version and previous_version might be an interesting alternative to updates in the case where the author of the updated version has control of the previous version as well. This is not always the case but might happen often enough to include this option.
* The concept of siblings is an interesting one, although the difference between that and update or forward might be too particular for most users.
* attachment might be interesting but is it necessary?
* related_to might be useful in an aggregate environment (think delicious related tags) but otherwise I see those posts use as source citations, so this specific relation type might be pointless.

== Examples of Use ==
From Email we get two basic relations between message:
* Reply - This message is a reply to the referenced message.
* Forward - This message forwards the referenced message to additional recipients.

From various publications (often of standards) we get:
* Updates/Obsoletes - This documents contains updates or even replaces the referenced document.

Citation of resources comes in several flavors:
* Quote
* Citing a reference
* Via link/Hat tip (mainly in blogs)

== Web Examples ==

=== Author, href and blockquote ===
His column was picked up all over the web, including by Danny Ayers. He
dives into discussion about <a href="http://dannyayers.com/archives/2006/01/10/new-data-languages-harmful/">how to build an RDF model</a>,
rather than an XML language:


<blockquote>
When working with RDF, my current feeling (could be wrong ;-) is that in most cases it’s probably best to initially make up afresh a new representation that matches the domain model as closely as possible(/appropriate). Only then start looking to replacing the new terms with established ones with matching semantics. But don’t see reusing things as more important than getting an (appropriately) accurate model. (Different approaches are likely to be better for different cases, but as a loose guide I think this works.)

</blockquote>

[http://www.soundadvice.id.au/blog/2006/01/15/#xmlLanguages source]

Danny Ayers is the author of the pieces being referenced. The href identifies an article the blockquote comes from. "How to build an RDF model" may be considered a short description of the link, however sometimes this text is as short as "writes".

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-25T23:42:32Z

EranGloben: /* Authors */

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-24T02:16:29Z

EranGloben: added IBIS info and discussion

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-24T01:44:10Z

EranGloben: /* Additional Resources */

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed online conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

[[distributed-conversation-examples]]

== Note for general text citations ==

This page is all about hyperlink citations, either explicity through the use of an <code><a href></code> or a mostly hidden "cite" attribute on the <code><blockquote></code> and <code><q></code> elements.

For general text citations, please take a look at:
* [[cite-examples]], [[cite-formats]], [[cite-brainstorming]]

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org W3C] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:::: That is a very good point Andy. Thus we should define rel-cite compatibly, and then give attribution and informatively reference XHTML2. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
* Usenet discussions used the references field which includes ALL referenced posts with the one replied to last in a space separated list.
** http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html See section 2.2.5
* [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6 has the following:
** In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
** References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
** See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
** Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
** Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.
* Try Googling around "IBIS" (Issue-Based Information Systems), it's an approach to collaborative problem solving that looks very like discussion threads, see also [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage BlueOxen Wiki], [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MailingLists BlueOxen Mailing Lists]

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T22:23:56Z

EranGloben:

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T22:23:37Z

EranGloben: /* Authors */

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T22:23:25Z

EranGloben: /* Examples of Use */

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T22:15:39Z

EranGloben: /* Examples */

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T22:13:50Z

EranGloben: added details and discussion of TDL

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T22:01:16Z

EranGloben:

= Distributed Conversation --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 14:01, 22 Jan 2006 (PST)Examples =

This is an exploratory page to document various methods used to anotate online conversations both distributed and not. The purpose of the studies on this page is to serve as background for the design of a microformat to anotate distributed conversations on blogs and other online media.

see [[citation-brainstorming]] for more discussion on this topic.

== Authors ==

* --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 14:01, 22 Jan 2006 (PST)

== Examples ==

Email and Usenet both keep track of discussion threads in a non-central manner using headers and references to message IDs. Some common headers and their use are highlighted in [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6:
* In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
* References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
* See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
* Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
* Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
* Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
* Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
* http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T22:00:15Z

EranGloben:

distributed-conversation-examples

2006-01-22T21:57:34Z

EranGloben: created basic page for distributed conversation examples.

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-22T21:53:52Z

EranGloben:

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

[[distributed-conversation-examples]]

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org WC3] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
* Usenet discussions used the references field which includes ALL referenced posts with the one replied to last in a space separated list.
** http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html See section 2.2.5
* [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6 has the following:
** In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
** References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
** See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
** Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
** Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-21T22:25:21Z

EranGloben: /* Additional Resources */

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org WC3] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
* Usenet discussions used the references field which includes ALL referenced posts with the one replied to last in a space separated list.
** http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html See section 2.2.5
* [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2076.html RFC2076 - Common Internet Message Headers] section 3.6 has the following:
** In-Reply-To - Reference to message which this message is a reply to.
** References - In e-mail: reference to other related messages, in Usenet News reference to replied-to-articles.
** See-Also - References to other related articles in Usenet News.
** Obsoletes - Reference to previous message being corrected and replaced.
** Supersedes - Commonly used in Usenet News in similar ways to the "Obsoletes" header described above. In Usenet News, however, Supersedes causes a full deletion of the replaced article in the server, while "Supersedes" and "Obsoletes" in e-mail is implemented in the client and often does not remove the old version of the text.
** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-21T22:08:10Z

EranGloben: /* Additional Resources */

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org WC3] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/
* Usenet discussions used the references field which includes ALL referenced posts with the one replied to last in a space separated list.
** http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html See section 2.2.5

User:EranGloben

2006-01-21T21:49:41Z

EranGloben:

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-21T21:41:03Z

EranGloben: /* Problem */

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org WC3] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/

distributed-conversation-brainstorming

2006-01-21T21:37:31Z

EranGloben: /* Problem */

=citeRel brainstorming=
Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).

Later, [http://hellononline.com Eran] [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=18 expanded the idea] to encompass not just via citations, but replies and updates as well. Follow up post [http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=19 here].

==Problem==
The basic idea we're trying to solve here is the tracking of distributed conversation- more specifically, distributed conversation between blog posts– the scope is intentionally limited here, though other aspects of distributed conversation are certainly important and related.

:A smaller portion of the problem is in identifying the most authoritative sources in a web-wide thread. In researching anything, the ability to identify a primary source is invaluable. Adding this kind of ordinality would add value to any list of related links such as a tag page.

::Finding an authoritative source is not a smaller problem, but a larger problem- you have to have the whole conversation graph in order to find the root nodes. --RyanKing

:::The definition of Authority here is murky at best. This is far beyond the scope of this discussion. --EranGloben

:Citing (quoting or refering to as an authoritative source or precedent) and hat-tipping (giving credit to a non-primary source for calling attention to a primary [authoritative] source) are certainly two different animals. Common etiquette suggests use of anchor tags because they can be actuated by the user.

:I dug around at [http://www.w3.org WC3] and found rel="cite" is ''already defined'' in the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-metaAttributes.html XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module]. In the [http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-hyperAttributes.html XHTML 2.0 Hypertext Attribute Collection], href and cite attributes are defined and may coexist but they behave differently: The href attribute "specifies a URI that is actuated when the element is activated." For the cite attribute, "User Agents MUST provide a means for the user to actuate the link."

::This has already been covered in the above blog posts. Admitedly, it needs to be brought into this document, though. --RyanKing

:Whereas authors in general like their work to be cited with hyperlinks, and whereas users can be counted upon to cite primary and non-primary sources simultaneously without differentiating them, and whereas the only difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation is the potential for skipped vias when considered across a distributed conversation, and whereas the use of existing specifications is preferred to the creation of redundant systems, and whereas increasing attributes is less severe than increasing nested elements, I propose that good definition and use of rel="cite" will resolve the problem of crediting sources via anchors. <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

::I see the conclusion as quite the opposite. Because rel="cite" *is* defined in XHTML2 drafts, and microformats allow you add rel values to HTML4/XHTML1 *now*, adopting the same convention makes a lot of sense.

::If anything it bolsters the case for rel="cite" (as opposed to some other value like rel="source").

::In a relCite microformat, you would define the "cite" value by normatively referencing XHTML2, rather than redefining it (even copy/pasting the definition from the XHTML2 spec -- though one could do so "informatively"), just like in [[hcard|hCard]], we define the properties by normatively referencing vCard. <cite>Tantek</cite>

:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

::Lucas- that's why God invented <blockquote>. Content ''copied'' from one site to another should be quoted. --RyanKing

::The question isn't about whether something was copied but what the cite source is. This is a case where the difference between a primary citation and a non-primary citation affects the meaning of the data. <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>

:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

== rel="cite" / rev="cite" ==

This could be a way to indicate a citation of linked content, typically web pages (or portions thereof, like blog posts) but inclusive of any kind of resource with a URL. "Cite" is defined as "to quote or refer to as a precedent or authority."

By adding <code>rel="cite"</code> to a hyperlink, an author could indicate that the destination of that hyperlink is an authoritative source or a precedent to the current page. rel="cite" would be used whether an author cites by quotation:
<pre><blockquote>Our liberty depends on the freedom of the
press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson" rel="cite">
Thomas Jefferson</a></blockquote></pre>
or by reference only:
<pre><a href="http://example.com/joeschmoe/article/99/" rel="cite">
Joe Schmoe's latest rant</a> is wrong, wrong, wrong...</pre>

<code>rel="cite"</code> hyperlinks are intended to be visible links on pages and posts. Note that other markup may be used to indicate citation:
<pre><blockquote cite="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson">
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be
limited without being lost.<cite>Thomas Jefferson</cite></blockquote></pre>
but User Agents are not compelled to expose a link to the cited resource. Hyperlinks are preferred by most authors because they afford the user easy access to the cited resource.

== citeRel vs. relCite ==
For basic structure and markup of citations it has been suggested that we use the following:
<pre>

<a rel="cite" href="source.url">source.title</a>
</pre>
instead of
<pre>

<cite><a href="source.url">source.title</a></cite>
</pre>

There are several reasons to prefer the citeRel form over the relCite form of markup:
# citeRel uses only existing XHTML elements and values where relCite uses a new rel value.
# citeRel is easily extensible without breaking it's existing meaning.

==When is a bare href (not) a citation==
A href is a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to another entry or to a presentation, then talks about that entry or presentation. eg "I believe it was more or less the same <a href="...">presentation</a> he gave at SxSW this year" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King].

A href is not a citation when:
* A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had <a href="...">Tantek Çelik</a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
* A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel

==Additional Resources==
* Thread Description Language - TDL is an RDF vocabulary for describing threaded discussions, such as Usenet, weblogs, bulletin boards, and e-mail conversations.
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/web-threads/
** http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2002/wtprofile/

xoxo

2005-11-28T08:00:37Z

EranGloben: /* Implementations */

= XOXO 1.0: Extensible Open XHTML Outlines =

XOXO is a simple, open outline format written in standard XHTML and suitable for embedding in (X)HTML, Atom, RSS, and arbitrary XML. XOXO is one of several [[microformats|microformat]] open standards.

__TOC__

== Draft Specification 2004-10-01 ==

=== Editor ===
[http://tantek.com/ Tantek Çelik], [http://technorati.com Technorati, Inc]

=== Authors ===
* [http://epeus.blogspot.com/ Kevin Marks], [http://technorati.com Technorati, Inc]
* [http://tantek.com/ Tantek Çelik], [http://technorati.com Technorati, Inc] (formerly of [http://microsoft.com/ Microsoft Corporation])
* [http://diveintomark.org/ Mark Pilgrim], [http://ibm.com IBM]
* [http://www.blogologue.com/ Morten W. Petersen]

=== Copyright ===
{{MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2003}}

=== Patents ===
{{MicroFormatPatentStatement}}

== Preamble ==
When we were discussing [http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/attentionxml Attention.xml], Tantek pointed out that XHTML has everything necessary for semantically expressing outlines and blogroll-like subscriptions in an XML format that is both interactively renderable by browsers and parsable by strict XML engines. This page is here to discuss this idea.

=== Name ===
XOXO stands for eXtensible Open XHTML Outlines, and is pronounced variously as 'ecks oh ecks oh', 'zho-zho', or 'sho-sho'.

== Abstract ==
XOXO is one of several [[MicroFormats]]. This specification defines a new XHTML document type that is based upon the module framework and modules defined in Modularization of XHTML ([http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization XHTMLMOD]). The purpose of the XOXO document type is to serve as the basis for XHTML friendly outlines for processing by XML engines and for easy interactive rendering by browsers.

== The XOXO Document Type ==
The XOXO document type is made up of the following XHTML modules. The elements, attributes, and minimal content models associated with these modules are defined in "Modularization of XHTML" ([http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization XHTMLMOD]). The elements are listed here for information purposes, but the definitions in "Modularization of XHTML" should be considered definitive. In the on-line version of this document, the module names in the list below link into the definitions of the modules within the current version of "Modularization of XHTML".

[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_structuremodule Structure Module]
body, head, html, title
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_hypertextmodule Hypertext Module]
a
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_listmodule List Module]
dl, dt, dd, ol, ul, li
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_metamodule Metainformation Module]
meta
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_stylemodule Stylesheet Module]
style element
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_styleattributemodule Style Attribute Module]
style attribute
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_linkmodule Link Module]
link
[http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_legacymodule Legacy Module]
Attribute compact on ol and ul

=== The XOXO Profile ===

The XOXO Profile is an [http://gmpg.org/xmdp XHTML Meta Data Profile] used to define values for the class attribute.

<pre><nowiki>
<dl class="profile">
<dt>class</dt>
<dd><a rel="help" href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-class">
HTML4 definition of the 'class' attribute.</a>
This meta data profile defines some 'class' attribute values
(class names) and their meanings as suggested by a
<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-htmllink-970328#profile">draft of "Hypertext
Links in HTML"</a>:
<dl>
<dt>xoxo</dt>
<dd>An XOXO outline as defined by the
<a href="http://microformats.org/wiki/XOXO">XOXO
specification</a>.
Typically an ordered list <ol> or unordered list <ul>
element.</dd>
<dt>blogroll</dt>
<dd>When used with the aforementioned 'xoxo' value, this value means
a particular instance of an XOXO outline which has the additional
semantic of being a
<a href="http://www.microcontentnews.com/resources/glossary/blogrolling.htm">blogroll</a>.
</dd>
</dl>
</dd>
</dl>
</nowiki></pre>

== Simple XOXO Fragment ==

=== Markup ===

<pre><nowiki><ol class='xoxo'>
<li>Subject 1
<ol>
<li>subpoint a</li>
<li>subpoint b</li>
</ol>
</li>
<li>Subject 2
<ol compact="compact">
<li>subpoint c</li>
<li>subpoint d</li>
</ol>
</li>
<li>Subject 3
<ol>
<li>subpoint e</li>
</ol>
</li>
</ol>
</nowiki></pre>

=== Sample Rendering ===
<pre><nowiki>
1. Subject 1
a. subpoint a
b. subpoint b
2. Subject 2
3. Subject 3
a. subpoint e
</nowiki></pre>
=== Usage of 'compact' attribute ===

Note the use of the 'compact' attribute to indicate that the subpoints of the headline "Subject 2" are not in an expanded state. The absence of the 'compact' attribute elsewhere indicates that the other headlines are in an expanded state.

=== Possible Default Style Rules for Sample Rendering ===

<pre><nowiki>
ol.xoxo { list-style:decimal; }
ol.xoxo ol { list-style:lower-latin; }
ol[compact="compact"] { display:none; }
</nowiki></pre>

== More Simple Examples ==

MarkP has a set of examples that demonstrates both the simplicity of the markup and the presentational richness that is possible:

* [http://diveintomark.org/public/2004/01/xo-flat.xo simple XO file that can be embedded directly into an XHTML page]
* [http://diveintomark.org/public/2004/01/xo-embeddable.xo XO with nested groups, also directly embeddedable in XHTML]
* [http://diveintomark.org/public/2004/01/xo-standalone.xo XO as a standalone XHTML page] ([http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdiveintomark.org%2Fpublic%2F2004%2F01%2Fxo-standalone.xo valid XHTML])
* [http://diveintomark.org/public/2004/01/xo-with-style.xo XO as a standalone XHTML page, styled with CSS] ([http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdiveintomark.org%2Fpublic%2F2004%2F01%2Fxo-with-style.xo also valid XHTML])
* [http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/ Chris Holland Outline Helper]: tweaked one of above samples, yanked CSS for simplicity, added reference to [http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/outlines.css outlines.css] and [http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/outlines.js outlines.js], pasted a few different combinations of ul/ol/li with the compact attribute.
** in trying to comply with semantic principles the "compact" attribute to ol and ul elements is what drives the display state. Via scripting, i'm setting classes on containing li element for added styling flexibility, though CSS Gurus might be able to replace "li.expanded" in outlines.css with some other CSS selector that says "select an li node that contains an ol node with a 'compact' attribute set".

== Properties of Outline Items ==
Outlines typically consist of a hierarchy of points and subpoints. Each of those points (outline items) itself may have some properties (AKA attributes or metadata) that need to be represented. Perhaps the most common additional property on outline items in practice is the URL as demonstrated in Mark Pilgrim's examples above. Even the text label/title of an outline item could be considered a common property. A few such common properties:
* text
* description
* url (often called xmlurl or htmlurl; sometimes called permalink)
* title
* type (hint of the MIME type of the resource indicated by the URL)

In general, properties on an outline item <code><nowiki><li></nowiki></code> are represented by a nested definition list <code><nowiki><dl></nowiki></code>. Strictly speaking, it is the first <code><nowiki><dl></nowiki></code> inside the <code><nowiki><li></nowiki></code> and before any following <code><nowiki><ol></nowiki></code>, <code><nowiki><ul></nowiki></code>, or <code><li></code>, e.g. here is an item "item 1" with a description property (the subpoints are there purely as a point of reference to an earlier example).

<pre><nowiki>
<ol class='xoxo'>
<li>item 1
<dl>
<dt>description</dt>
<dd>This item represents the main point we're trying to make.</dd>
</dl>
<ol>
<li>subpoint a</li>
<li>subpoint b</li>
</ol>
</li>
</nowiki></pre>

=== Special Properties ===
There are a handful of special properties which we are able to represent more directly and conveniently with the semantic XHTML building blocks that we have included, instead of terms in a definition list. Mostly taken from the above list of common properties, these are:
* text, url, title, type, and rel (short for relationship)

If we were to represent them simply as definition terms (including the "description" property from the previous example), they might look something like this:

Example for the sake of discussion only / not a canonical XOXO example:

<pre><nowiki>
<ol class='xoxo'>
<li>
<dl>
<dt>text</dt>
<dd>item 1</dd>
<dt>description</dt>
<dd> This item represents the main point we're trying to make.</dd>
<dt>url</dt>
<dd>http://example.com/more.xoxo</dd>
<dt>title</dt>
<dd>title of item 1</dd>
<dt>type</dt>
<dd>text/xml</dd>
<dt>rel</dt>
<dd>help</dd>
</dl>
</li>
</nowiki></pre>

However, by taking advantage of the semantic <code><a href></code> element, we are able to dramatically simplify the common cases that utilize these properties. From a parser's perspective, this applies to the first <code><a href></code> element directly inside the <code><nowiki><li></nowiki></code>.

Actual XOXO Example:

<pre><nowiki>
<ol class='xoxo'>
<li><a href="http://example.com/more.xoxo"
title="title of item 1"
type="text/xml"
rel="help">item 1</a>

<dl>
<dt>description</dt>
<dd>This item represents the main point we're trying to make.</dd>
</dl>
</li>
</nowiki></pre>

Any other properties are simply added to the definition list in the same way as the "description" property.

== Examples in the Wild ==
This section is '''informative'''.

Too numerous to document thoroughly. Nearly every blogroll on the Web can be parsed as XOXO, since they are typically an unordered list of list items of hyperlinks, which is within the XOXO profile.

== Implementations ==
This section is '''informative'''.

* [http://odeo.com Odeo] publishes users' subscription lists in XOXO. See Ryan King's list [http://odeo.com/profile/RyanKing/xoxo here].
* [http://www.decafbad.com/blog/ Les Orchard] has [http://www.decafbad.com/blog/2005/07/12/xoxo_outliner_experiment written] a [http://www.decafbad.com/2005/07/map-test/tree2.html nice XOXO outline editor in javascript].
* http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/ is a great demonstration of dynamic interactive XOXO with use of "compact" and DHTML to collapse/expand.
* http://tool-man.org/examples/sorting.html is a great demonstration of drag and drop sortable XOXO lists with javascript and CSS.
* http://www.joshpeek.com/projects/opmltoxoxo is an extensible OPML to XOXO converter.
* http://www.opendarwin.org/~drernie/xoxo-datatypes.html Mapping XOXO to [http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/PropertyLists/Concepts/XMLPListsConcept.html Mac OS X property lists]
* [http://techno-weenie.net/blog/main/261/if-i-had-a-tumblelog single line of rails to convert XOXO to HTML]

=== Sample Code ===

* See the [[xoxo-sample-code]] page for open source sample code to read and write XOXO files.

== XOXO Schemas ==
This section is informative.

Note: these may be out of date and require updating to reflect the use of <dl> for annotating XOXO items with arbitrary properties.
* [[DTDs]]
* [http://www.nidelven-it.no/projects/XOXO/xoxo-0.1.tgz Schemas (Relax NG and DTDs)]

== References ==
=== Normative References ===
* [http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 XHTML 1.0]
* [http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization XHTMLMOD]
* [http://gmpg.org/xmdp/ XMDP]
* [http://gmpg.org/xfn/ XFN]

=== Informative References ===
This section is '''informative'''.
* [http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/attentionxml Attention.xml]
* [[VoteLinks]]
* [http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11 XHTML 1.1]
* [http://opml.scripting.com/spec OPML 1.0]
* Contributed from http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/XOXO

=== Similar Work ===
* [http://dannyayers.com/archives/001961.html XHTML Outlines] - DannyAyers independently came up with idea in 2003 October (just a month or two before Kevin and Tantek independently came up with XOXO) to use a simple profile of XHTML to semantically represent outlines using existing building blocks from XHTML.
* [http://semtext.org/2004-02/ XOW] - making them editable, producing RDF and bookmark lists from them (DannyAyers)

=== Related Reading ===
* [http://patricklogan.blogspot.com/2005/08/lists-really-can-we-expect-better.html Patrick Logan on why OPML and a Microsoft Lists extension are both unnecessary].
* [http://raybenchen.blogspot.com/2005/11/is-crappy-format-worth-saving.html Dr. Tao Chen on why it is better to use XOXO than OPML going forward]

=== Unrelated Reading ===
* [http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=493 Questionable Content comic #493] - apparently the Faye character is a fan of XOXO.

=== Promotional Materials / Schwag ===
* There is an entire XOXO clothing and accessories line. [http://www.xoxo.com/home.php Buy XOXO stuff online].

== Discussions ==
This specification is a work in progress. As additional aspects are discussed, understood, and written, they will be added. There is a separate document where we are keeping our brainstorms and other explorations relating to XOXO:

* See [[xoxo-brainstorming]] for additional thoughts on how to use XOXO for specific uses.
* See also [http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/referer.html blogs discussing this page].

=== Q&A ===
* If you have any questions about XOXO, check the [[xoxo-faq]], and if you don't find answers, add your questions!

=== Issues ===
* Please add any issues with the specification to the separate [[xoxo-issues]] document.