Microformats Wiki - User contributions [en]

value-class-pattern-brainstorming

2008-09-04T12:51:34Z

JulianStahnke: /* issues */

<h1>value excerption pattern brainstorming</h1>
{{TOC-right}}

The [[value-excerption-pattern]] is derived from [[hCard#Value_excerpting|value-excerpting]] in hCard. The precise parsing behavior is not yet finalized, so the pattern should be used only with extreme caution.

This brainstorming page is for exploring ideas related to specifying the value-excerption-pattern in more detail and ideas for special case handling of the value-excerption-pattern in combination with specific [[semantic HTML]] elements per those elements' particular semantics.

These are merely explorations for now, and should NOT be used in actual content publishing, nor implemented in any production code.

<div class="vcard">
; <span class="role">Editor</span>
: <span class="fn">[[User:Tantek|Tantek Çelik]]</span>
</div>

== details for handling specific elements ==
=== object param handling ===
2008-08-23 [[User:BenWard|Ben Ward]] and [[User:Tantek|Tantek Çelik]] brainstormed the following possible special case markup handling for the use of the [[value-excerption-pattern]] with the <nowiki><object></nowiki> element. Modified 2008-08-26.

The following markup example documents one way the [[hCard]] <code>tel</code> property's <code>type</code> subproperty could be specified with the enumerated value of "cell" while providing the UK English "mobile" as the human visible object text contents:

<pre><nowiki>
<object class="type" lang="en-GB">
<param name="value" value="cell" />
mobile
</object>
</nowiki></pre>

==== summary ====
* '''object element special case handling of value excerption'''. When a microformat (sub)property class name is specified on an object element, then value excerption handling is modified as follows:
* '''first param with name attribute value'''. if the first child of the object is a param element, and that param element has name attribute value of "value", then use the value attribute value for the value for the microformat (sub)property class name specified on the object.
* '''continue'''. if not, continue with existing value excerption handling, and microformat (sub)property parsing rules as currently best specified by [[hcard-parsing]].

==== notes ====
Note that the param element does not have a 'class' attribute and thus its 'name' attribute (which has a compatible semantic) is used instead to invoke the value excerption pattern.

===== advantages =====
* '''Greater semantic re-use.''' The use of the param element to specify a value for its object is in line with the param element's semantics. The semantic association between the object and the param element is defined in the HTML4 specification.
* '''Less invention.''' This use of object param is superior to the use of a nested empty span element. The association of an empty span with its parent is a new semantic not previously defined in the HTML4 specification. Thus this use of object param markup better follows the principle of minimum invention as compared to nested empty span markup.
===== neutral =====
* '''Similar violation of DRY to nested empty span.'''
===== disadvantages =====
* '''Less human visible than abbr DRY violation.''' The contents/values of param elements are not exposed to the user of a browser, unlike the title attribute of abbr which, since it is commonly available as a hover tooltip, is more human visible, thus verifiable, than param.
* '''DRY violation content divergence risk greater than abbr.''' With abbr, one element is used to express both a human visible string and the property value, thus tying these values closer together (thus reducing risk of divergence). With object param, two elements are used, and thus risk of divergence may be greater than the use of abbr. Possible mitigating techniques that would help keep the property value and the equivalent human visible string closer to each other, perhaps as close in the code as they are when using abbr:
*# require param be first child of object
*# require use of only one param child (allow other child elements)
*# require exclusive use of object for value excerption i.e. no using the same object for an actual replaced object and a value excerption
*# require "value" attribute be the last attribute specified on the param element
*# require equivalent human visible text be placed immediately (allowing for whitespace) following the param
===== criticisms =====
* '''Verbose''' - [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]]

==== to do ====
* Browser testing. This code sample must be tested in various browsers to determine how they process and handle pages with such code
*# determine which browsers to test (based on popularity, deployment, etc.)
*# write a full sample test case using the above object param markup pattern and a complete hCard
*# write a more complex sample test case with multiple uses of the object param markup pattern
*# test do browsers properly display the UK English text "mobile"?
*# test do browsers generate multiple browser (e.g. Webkit, Trident etc.) controls as they would for embedded frames (nested HTML objects)?
*# determine any other tests
* Parser implementability. Determine approximately how much work it would be to implement this special case object param support.
** I've just added support for this. It took 19 bytes of code. [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]] 01:24, 25 Aug 2008 (PDT)
* Document in more detail. Assuming browser tests of a simple example pass (proper visible text displayed, page efficiency not compromised by additional control creation), document how to handle/parse this pattern in more detail. Iterate.

==== Browser Testing ====
Using the following simple, HTML4 hcard:

<pre><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<title>&lt;object> value excerption pattern: hCard Telephone Type Test Case</title>

<body class="vcard">
<h1 class="fn"><a class="url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk">Ben Ward</a></h1>
<p class="tel">
<object class="type">
<param name="value" value="cell">
Mobile:
</object>
<span class="value">415-123-567</span>
</p>
</body></pre>

===== Results =====
A pass is to display a heading level one ‘Ben Ward’ with hyperlink, followed by a paragraph displaying the text ‘Mobile: 415-123-567’
Browsers selected based on YUI Graded Browser Support (August 2008), plus some others.

* Opera 9.5 - Pass
* Firefox 2, 3 - Pass
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.2 (Mac) - Pass
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 - Partial Pass†
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 - Partial Pass†
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 (beta) - Partial Pass†
* Safari 3 - Pass
* Safari 2 - *Fail* ††

* † <span id="iewarningfail">Internet Explorer 6–8 on Windows XP renders the correct text, but triggers an ActiveX security warning bar on the page load.</span>
** This is an error on behalf of IE/Windows. As the object has no type nor data attributes, it has nothing that would bind it to a specific ActiveX control, and therefore should not trigger a security warning bar. This bug should be reported, and the respective bug number referenced here. To do:
*** report bug to Microsoft to fix in IE8 at a minimum (and since it is a security related false positive, perhaps patch it in IE6 and IE7 as well)
*** ask Chris Wilson if there are any markup work-arounds to cause security alert to not happen for something that is not loading any ActiveX (2008-09-04 DONE. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] direct messaged Chris, pointed him to this browser testing section, asked him about any markup work arounds.)
*** try DECLARE attribute, e.g. <code><nowiki><object class="type" declare="declare">visible text</object></nowiki></code> to see if that makes IE/Windows not instantiate an ActiveX control and thus not trigger the warning.

* †† Safari 2 renders a default-sized white box (as if embedding an external control). It breaks layout and does not display the desired content.

===== Safari 2 Tweak =====
The example is tweaked as follows to affect Safari 2 rendering:

<pre><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<title>&lt;object> value excerption pattern: hCard Telephone Type Test Case</title>

<body class="vcard">
<h1 class="fn"><a class="url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk">Ben Ward</a></h1>
<p class="tel">
<object data="data://" class="type">
<param name="value" value="cell">
Mobile:
</object>
<span class="value">415-123-567</span>
</p>
</body></pre>

A <code>data="data://"</code> URL attribute is added to the <code>object</code> element.

====== Safari 2 Result ======

* Safari 2 - Partial Pass†

† Safari 2 renders the object correctly on first page load, *however*, upon using the browser ‘Refresh’ function, the <code>object</code> element reverts to the broken rendering described in the original test.

===== Current Conclusion =====
* Safari 2 does not pass the test acceptably for this to be adopted as the only solution.
* Internet Explorer's security warnings are irritating, but justifiably unacceptable.
--[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 20:17, 26 Aug 2008 (PDT)

* I concur. And while we can report a bug against IE/Windows in the hopes that it is fixed eventually (perhaps even in IE8 before it ships), as this problem has been fixed in Safari 3, it is doubtful that a bug report against Safari 2 would be fixed in an intermediate version.
--[[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 03:07, 27 Aug 2008 (PDT)

==== misconceptions ====
===== misunderstanding of authoring unfriendliness =====
* not very hand-authoring friendly, compared to other proposals like: [[datetime-design-pattern#Machine-data_in_class|Machine data in class]]: <code><span class="type data-cell">Mobile:</span></code>, and [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html data prefix in titles]: <code><span class="type" title="data:cell">Mobile</span></code> [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]]
** It is even more hand-authoring unfriendly to introduce a new syntax, as "Machine data in class" does, and to some extent as "data prefix in titles does". Additional (especially new) syntax introduces far greater cognitive load to the author than a little bit more markup. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]

==== previous iterations ====
===== 2008-08-23 =====
<pre><nowiki>
<object class="type" lang="en-GB">
<param class="value" name="value" value="cell" />
mobile
</object>
</nowiki></pre>
====== disadvantages ======
* '''Invalid (X)HTML''' - although this pattern does make sense, it is worth noting that <code><param></code> is one of just a handful of HTML elements for which the <code>class</code> attribute is [http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/objects.html#h-13.3.2 not defined]. Use of this pattern will break validation unless a custom DTD is employed.

== details for handling specific property types ==
=== date and time separation ===

==== summary ====
By specifying a more precise parsing of the use of "value" excerption inside all datetime properties (e.g. dtstart, dtend, published, updated etc.), dates and times can be marked up separately, thus reducing/minimizing (and potentially eliminating) the readability issues that come with compound ISO8601 datetimes.

==== introductory example ====
The sentence:

<pre><nowiki>
The weekly dinner is tonight at 6:30pm.
</nowiki></pre>

would be marked up as:

<pre><nowiki>
The weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr>
at <abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

==== advantages ====
* re-uses the readable [[abbr-date-pattern]]
* identifies a similarly readable abbr-time-pattern.
* minimizes DRY violation distance, keeps machine data on exactly the same element as the respective human data
** even better than [[abbr-datetime-pattern]] does, which, in practice from experience often required specifying the date in machine readable form on the human readable time (separate from the human readable date).
* introduces no new class names - [[principle]] of minimal invention
* introduces no new use of the class attribute - principle of minimal invention again
* introduces no new syntax ([[datetime-design-pattern#problems_with_strtime_proposal|see above]] about any publishing method that requires the author to think like a programmer being a non-starter, and introducing new syntax almost always requires authors to think like programmers).
* and most importantly, introduces no dark data.

==== issues ====
Some potential issues were raised in IRC, and it helps to document/resolve them so that they are not brought up repeatedly.
* [[http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T163114 Does this sufficiently address the concerns raised with the current use of abbr-pattern?]]
*# The [[abbr-date-pattern]], as documented and explained by [[User:Adactio|Jeremy Keith]] is just fine (in contrast to the [[abbr-datetime-pattern]]).
*# Similar to the [[abbr-date-pattern]], this proposal implies/introduces the abbr-time-pattern, which is similarly acceptable.
*# In addition, as long there is incremental improvement, we are making progress. It is more important to take small steps that we know will help some things, rather than try to take a big step that is more risky in the attempt to help more but may not actually do so (as most big changes don't), therefore "sufficiently" is a flawed way of evaluating incremental fixes.
* Exposes data through tooltips. Separating into 2008-06-07 and 18:03 improves the ability for humans to consume the data, but still exposes data through tooltips and speech in formats that the publisher did not choose to use. --[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 04:52, 25 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*# This is a feature, not a bug. By making the duplicated data at least *somewhat* visible (rather than fully invisible), effective data quality is increased due to the fact that the probability of the ISO8601 and locale-specific data getting out-of-sync is reduced because of the increased visibility (and therefore the increased inspectability and more eye-balls looking at/for problems effect).
*# Workaround: if a site publisher wishes to customize the presentation of tooltips, they can do so with a nested span with title.
*#* That proposes extraneous mark-up maintain some publisher's wish not to have a tool-tip in the first place. I object to a microformat pattern requiring an immediate work-around to meet publisher's desires. It goes against ‘Humans first…’. --[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 09:09, 30 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*#*# Additional markup has nothing to do with "Humans first".
*#*# Additional markup to work-around minor issues (e.g. CSS, cross-browser compatibility, etc.) is a well accepted modern web design practice. It's not ideal, but it is both accepted and widely practiced. With the use of <code><span></code> and <code><div></code> elements, it's also semantically neutral, therefore not a problem from that perspective either.
*#*# Finally, it should not be our goal to try to satisfy *every* publisher, for that would make every microformat beholden to every publisher and contort the design of microformats in really poor ways. We must accept that not all publishers will adopt all microformats and that is ok. Our goal to incrementally increase the number of publishers that adopt microformats, not to try to satisfy each and every one.
*#* You *have* to have a tooltip though. It’s not possible to *not* have a tooltip. Not great.--[[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 12:58, 4 Sep 2008 (BST)
*#** Doesn't a nested span with empty title attribute work? e.g. <code><nowiki><span title="">...</span></nowiki></code>
*#*** Nope, empty title on nested element didn’t override a title on the containing element when I tested in Safari 3 and Firefox 3. Browser would still display the title.
* Semantic misuses of ABBR. That ‘tonight’ is ever a textual, human abbreviation of ‘2008-06-24’ is not accepted.
*# Semantic stretch not misuse. It is a semantic abbreviation rather than a purely syntactical (character shortening) abbreviation, but it is an abbreviation in context nonetheless. Though this may stretch what may be commonly expected as an "abbreviation", the HTML4 spec does seem to allow some flexibility here ([http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1 HTML 4.01 9.2.1 Phrase elements]).
* Maintaining proper sentences with the expanded form. It is not always possible to use this mark-up and maintain proper sentences with the expanded form. e.g. <code>it's my <abbr class="bday" title="2005-06-20">birthday today</abbr>!</code> becomes ‘it's my 2005-06-20!’. And thus audio rendition of such titles can be nonsensical - "The weekly dinner is two thousand and eight dash zero six dash twenty four at eighteen thirty."
*# This can and should be addressed by improving authoring examples so that practices improve with experience.
* Publishing practices and desires show us that authors are not willing to compromise the semantics of abbr. [[User:Phae|Phae]] 04:30, 27 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*# Without specific citations of which authors and what specific issues they have, we are unable to address their issues.
*# See also above - not our goal to satisfy *every* publisher, but rather to incrementally satisfy more and more. We must accept that there may be some authors we are unable to satisfy in the immediate/short-term.
* [[http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T163435 That's getting pretty complicated]]
** Much less complicated than inventing yet another syntax ( " { ... } " ???? ) that web authors would have to learn.
*** But it's all in one place, rather than spreading it out.
**** The spreading it out is what current content publishing practices do already! It is much more important to map the machine data as close to the existing publishing practice as possible, than to try to "put it all in one place". The "put it all in one place" way of thinking is why people ended up sticking so much invisible metadata in the head of the document, which we know fails.

==== content requirements ====
Some requirements which enhance both human readability, ''and'' machine parsability (best of both) :
* date value excerpts MUST use hyphen separators. E.g. 2008-06-24. Not ok:20080624.
* time value excerpts MUST use colon separators (seconds optional, implied :00 if absent). E.g. 18:30 or 18:30:00. Not ok:183000.
* timezone value excerpts MUST use leading plus or minus and NO colon separator. E.g. -0700. Not ok:-07:00.

==== derivation ====
It's important to document the derivation/background of a brainstorm/proposal as it allows others to see some of the thinking that went into it, and avoid having to rediscuss alternatives already considered, and helps provide understanding as to why aspects of the design are as they are.
===== example with datetime =====
Here is a short code example:
<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is tonight at <span class="dtstart">2008-06-24T18:30</span>
</nowiki></pre>
===== example with abbr datetime =====
However that's not the easiest to read, nor do most people publish that as human visible text, so per the abbr-datetime pattern:
<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is tonight at <abbr class="dtstart" title="2008-06-24T18:30">6:30pm</abbr>
</nowiki></pre>

which has raised two issues:
# When "2008-06-24T18:30" is inspected by a human reading a tooltip, or spoken by a screen reader, it's not the most understandable thing (precise citation needed, perhaps an mp3 with screen reader used version info).
# There is a non-local violation of DRY (which IMHO is a worse problem, as it leads to worse data quality -[[User:Tantek|Tantek]]). That is, the "date" information is now not only in the text twice (as it was before), but those two instances of the date information are not on the same element, which makes it worse. That is, "tonight" is in the prose, ''outside'' of the element with the precise date "2008-06-24".

In analysis of examples of event information on the web, the date and time are often published in separate elements, often for display purposes.

Thus it is this existing content publishing practice which leads to this brainstorm proposal, to essentially to introduce a date and time value excerption longhand.

(Initially [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-21#T181634 Tantek's idea that he bounced off Jeremy Keith] ([http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T124652 similar idea conceived by Drew independently]) was to [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T161819 introduce new classes "datevalue", "timevalue"] and "tzvalue" for this purpose, but [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T171603 Bob Jonkman pointed out] that HTML5's time parsing algorithm enables a single <nowiki><time></nowiki> element to contain dates or times (with or without timezone) without having to explicitly say whether the value contains dates or times (with or without timezone). [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T171723 Bob then proposed] that thus all was needed was a single new "datetime" class name. This was the key realization that allowed minimal invention. Tantek pointed out that since from the type of property we already know it is a datetime, [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T171835 there was no need for even one new class name], that we could simply re-use "value" excerption, and simply more precisely specify the semantics/parsing in the case of datetime properties.)

===== example with new date and time value excerpts =====
Thus we markup the date and time separately, as value excerpts, using the [[abbr-date-pattern]] and an implied parallel abbr-time-pattern:

<pre><nowiki>
The weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr>
at <abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

===== separate subtrees =====
The proposal also allows setting the date and time in separate element subtrees as well, which may be necessary for some document structures:

<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr></span>
at <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

Note the two instances of dtstart, one of which sets the date for the dtstart, and the other of which sets the time.

The idea being, when a parser sees a datetime property (e.g. dtstart) with a value excerpt, that it only "set" the component of its full value that is specified by the value excerpt (e.g. the date), and that if lacking a complete datetime, it continue to parse additional instances of that datetime property for the remaining component(s) (e.g. the time).

Of course this only works for singular properties, but fortunately all instances of datetime properties so far are singular, so this works.
* hCard's <code>rev</code> is plural. [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]]
** can someone give a reference to this being the case? The RFC says "The value distinguishes the current revision of the information in this vCard for other renditions of the information." Does it make sense to have multiple REV dates in a single vCard?
*** The RFC is ambiguous as usual, but a contact card could conceivably have had several changes made to it, with a <code>rev</code> for each. ("Change logs" are fairly common on the web.) The [[hcard|hCard spec]] is fairly specific about which properties are [[hcard#Singular_vs._Plural_Properties|singular]] and which are not, and <code>rev</code> is not included in the list of singular properties.

===== reusing date data for multiple datetime properties =====
This also provides a *very* convenient way to re-use the same date information for start and end, e.g. expanding the example:

<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart dtend"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr></span>
from <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30</abbr></span> -
<span class="dtend"><abbr class="value" title="20:30">8:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

Note what just happened. we just eliminated another duplication of date information by reusing the start *date* information for the end *date* information and *only* specifying the end *time* information separately for the two properties.

Reducing the duplication (or triplication) of such data helps to reduce the chances of (even inadvertent) data corruption/drift/divergence among any duplicates.

===== time zones =====
There are a few choices for timezones.
# Simply include the time zone information as part of the time "value". <br /> E.g. <code><nowiki><abbr class="value" title="18:30-0700">6:30pm</abbr></nowiki></code>
# Or use another value excerpt for the timezone (was: <del>introduce the class name "tzvalue"</del>) <br /> E.g. <code><nowiki><abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr> <abbr class="value" title="-0700">PDT</abbr></nowiki></code>
# Or allow both and let web authors decide. This is the current leaning.
#* if web authors want to specify timezone as part of the time (first example above), they can,
#* or if web authors visibly publish the timezone separately (second example above), then they can mark that up.
#* or if web authors wish to omit timezone information, they can do so as well, as most do today. In practice this works fine, as it creates a "floating" time which works fine in far more than the 80/20.

(more to come, documenting [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T161740 from IRC logs])

==== discussion ====
Opening up a discussion section even though documentation [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T161740 from IRC logs] is still in progress. :)

* regarding the [[datetime-design-pattern#advantages|advantage]] of "and most importantly, introduces no dark data."
** "Dark data" is sometimes what publishers *want* to publish. To use the example of TV schedules which kick started the renewed discussion in this area, publishers will often not want to display the date. For instance, if a page entitled "Tomorrow's TV" and containing 300 different programmes marked up with <code>dtstart</code>, it is superfluous to explicitly display the date for each one. With this proposed solution the [[include|include pattern]] could be used to include the date into each vevent, but a visible link to the date on each programme would simply be confusing. Sometimes it just makes sense to hide some of the information you're publishing as a microformat - because the information you want to make explicit to parsers can be inferred from context by humans, or is more appropriately displayed at a different level of granularity for machines and humans. [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]] 14:26, 24 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*** It doesn't matter whether publishers *want* to publish dark data or not. Invisible data always leads to poorer quality data. Publishers publish all kinds of invisible metadata in the heads of documents etc. because they want to, but their desire doesn't stop the data from becoming obsolete, diverging from the actual visible data etc. The quality of the data matters more than any publishers wish(es) of publishing in a specific format, or in a hidden way. In the example you gave, using the include pattern in that way would not result in any visible links, but merely empty include anchors. It never makes any sense to actually hide "some of the information you're publishing as a microformat", because historically that always results in some loss of data quality over time and thus the microformats [[principle]] of visible data instead of invisible metadata. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 14:32, 24 Jun 2008 (PDT)
**** All microformats hide ''some'' data. In the example <code><nowiki><span class="tel">01632 960123</span></nowiki></code>, the information that the long string of numbers represents a telephone number is invisible. And making it visible (<code><nowiki>Tel: <span class="tel">01632 960123</span></nowiki></code>) violates DRY. It's just a matter of where to draw the line.
***** That statement makes the mistake of conflating *type* data and *content* data. "tel" is not content data, just as <nowiki><p></nowiki> is not content data. It's markup, indicating the type of the data. Markup (type data) being invisible to the user has worked just fine. Content (content data) being invisible to the user is the problem of dark data. Or rather, if you think that everything is data, then you really should be spending time developing in a system that is built on that assumption, e.g. RDF, rather than microformats, which are built on HTML, and the clear separation of type of data (HTML elements, microformats properties) and content data (inner text, text attribute values).
****** My point is that there isn't a ''distinction'' between the two, but a ''continuum''. The choice of where to draw the line is never a clear one and always somewhat arbitrary. The vCard standard could quite easily have ended up with separate "TEL", "FAX" and "CELL" properties, in which case hCard would have ended up with <code><nowiki><foo class="tel"></nowiki></code>, <code><nowiki><bar class="fax"></nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki><baz class="cell"></nowiki></code>. Going the other way, they could have stored e-mail addresses as mailto: URLs, and then hCard would have <code><nowiki><a class="url" href="mailto:quux@example.com"></nowiki></code>. They chose the way they did, and as a result in hCard the distinction between a mailto: URI and an http: URI is largely invisible (in most circumstances only obvious by looking at the status bar when hovering), but the distinction between a telephone number and a fax number is visible. But that wasn't the only possible (nor the only reasonable) outcome.

== enabling more use of title attributes ==
=== valuetitle ===
Numerous proposals over the years have advocated expanding the use of the title attribute beyond the abbr tag for storing microformat property values. One simple mechanism for doing so would be to introduce a new value excerption class name and rule.

'''valuetitle''': before "normal" value excerption handling, first look (in the same manner as value-excerption) for the class name "valuetitle", if it is found, use the value of the title attribute on that element and do no further value excerption or other parsing for that property value.

E.g.

<code><nowiki>
<span class="type">
<span class="valuetitle" title="cell">mobile</span>
</span>
</nowiki></code>

In addition to first looking for "valuetitle" where a parser would look for "value", it seems reasonable to also allow "valuetitle" on the property element itself in order to minimize the markup necessary, e.g.:

<code><nowiki>
<span class="type" class="valuetitle" title="cell">mobile</span>
</nowiki></code>

Naming reasoning/methodology: by using the prefix "value-" it is clear that this is part of the value excerption pattern. By using the suffix "-title", it is clear that the "title" attribute is involved. Thus the name "valuetitle" is a good mnemonic for its functionality. See related [[naming-principles]].

"valuetitle" was suggested on 2008-08-30 by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] in a discussion with [[User:BenWard|Ben Ward]].

==== previous similar proposals ====
I believe there may have been a proposal for "usetitle"(link+citation needed) in the past that would function similarly. I think "valuetitle" is better than "usetitle" as "valuetitle" is more *descriptive*, i.e. meaning "the title is the value", as opposed to "usetitle", which is more *prescriptive*, i.e. "use the title". [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 08:13, 1 Sep 2008 (PDT)

== related pages ==
* [[value-excerption-pattern]]
* [[value-excerption-pattern-issues]]
* [[hcard#Value_excerpting|hCard: Value Excepting]]

value-class-pattern-brainstorming

2008-09-04T12:00:02Z

JulianStahnke: /* issues */

<h1>value excerption pattern brainstorming</h1>
{{TOC-right}}

The [[value-excerption-pattern]] is derived from [[hCard#Value_excerpting|value-excerpting]] in hCard. The precise parsing behavior is not yet finalized, so the pattern should be used only with extreme caution.

This brainstorming page is for exploring ideas related to specifying the value-excerption-pattern in more detail and ideas for special case handling of the value-excerption-pattern in combination with specific [[semantic HTML]] elements per those elements' particular semantics.

These are merely explorations for now, and should NOT be used in actual content publishing, nor implemented in any production code.

<div class="vcard">
; <span class="role">Editor</span>
: <span class="fn">[[User:Tantek|Tantek Çelik]]</span>
</div>

== details for handling specific elements ==
=== object param handling ===
2008-08-23 [[User:BenWard|Ben Ward]] and [[User:Tantek|Tantek Çelik]] brainstormed the following possible special case markup handling for the use of the [[value-excerption-pattern]] with the <nowiki><object></nowiki> element. Modified 2008-08-26.

The following markup example documents one way the [[hCard]] <code>tel</code> property's <code>type</code> subproperty could be specified with the enumerated value of "cell" while providing the UK English "mobile" as the human visible object text contents:

<pre><nowiki>
<object class="type" lang="en-GB">
<param name="value" value="cell" />
mobile
</object>
</nowiki></pre>

==== summary ====
* '''object element special case handling of value excerption'''. When a microformat (sub)property class name is specified on an object element, then value excerption handling is modified as follows:
* '''first param with name attribute value'''. if the first child of the object is a param element, and that param element has name attribute value of "value", then use the value attribute value for the value for the microformat (sub)property class name specified on the object.
* '''continue'''. if not, continue with existing value excerption handling, and microformat (sub)property parsing rules as currently best specified by [[hcard-parsing]].

==== notes ====
Note that the param element does not have a 'class' attribute and thus its 'name' attribute (which has a compatible semantic) is used instead to invoke the value excerption pattern.

===== advantages =====
* '''Greater semantic re-use.''' The use of the param element to specify a value for its object is in line with the param element's semantics. The semantic association between the object and the param element is defined in the HTML4 specification.
* '''Less invention.''' This use of object param is superior to the use of a nested empty span element. The association of an empty span with its parent is a new semantic not previously defined in the HTML4 specification. Thus this use of object param markup better follows the principle of minimum invention as compared to nested empty span markup.
===== neutral =====
* '''Similar violation of DRY to nested empty span.'''
===== disadvantages =====
* '''Less human visible than abbr DRY violation.''' The contents/values of param elements are not exposed to the user of a browser, unlike the title attribute of abbr which, since it is commonly available as a hover tooltip, is more human visible, thus verifiable, than param.
* '''DRY violation content divergence risk greater than abbr.''' With abbr, one element is used to express both a human visible string and the property value, thus tying these values closer together (thus reducing risk of divergence). With object param, two elements are used, and thus risk of divergence may be greater than the use of abbr. Possible mitigating techniques that would help keep the property value and the equivalent human visible string closer to each other, perhaps as close in the code as they are when using abbr:
*# require param be first child of object
*# require use of only one param child (allow other child elements)
*# require exclusive use of object for value excerption i.e. no using the same object for an actual replaced object and a value excerption
*# require "value" attribute be the last attribute specified on the param element
*# require equivalent human visible text be placed immediately (allowing for whitespace) following the param
===== criticisms =====
* '''Verbose''' - [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]]

==== to do ====
* Browser testing. This code sample must be tested in various browsers to determine how they process and handle pages with such code
*# determine which browsers to test (based on popularity, deployment, etc.)
*# write a full sample test case using the above object param markup pattern and a complete hCard
*# write a more complex sample test case with multiple uses of the object param markup pattern
*# test do browsers properly display the UK English text "mobile"?
*# test do browsers generate multiple browser (e.g. Webkit, Trident etc.) controls as they would for embedded frames (nested HTML objects)?
*# determine any other tests
* Parser implementability. Determine approximately how much work it would be to implement this special case object param support.
** I've just added support for this. It took 19 bytes of code. [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]] 01:24, 25 Aug 2008 (PDT)
* Document in more detail. Assuming browser tests of a simple example pass (proper visible text displayed, page efficiency not compromised by additional control creation), document how to handle/parse this pattern in more detail. Iterate.

==== Browser Testing ====
Using the following simple, HTML4 hcard:

<pre><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<title>&lt;object> value excerption pattern: hCard Telephone Type Test Case</title>

<body class="vcard">
<h1 class="fn"><a class="url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk">Ben Ward</a></h1>
<p class="tel">
<object class="type">
<param name="value" value="cell">
Mobile:
</object>
<span class="value">415-123-567</span>
</p>
</body></pre>

===== Results =====
A pass is to display a heading level one ‘Ben Ward’ with hyperlink, followed by a paragraph displaying the text ‘Mobile: 415-123-567’
Browsers selected based on YUI Graded Browser Support (August 2008), plus some others.

* Opera 9.5 - Pass
* Firefox 2, 3 - Pass
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.2 (Mac) - Pass
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 - Partial Pass†
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 - Partial Pass†
* Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 (beta) - Partial Pass†
* Safari 3 - Pass
* Safari 2 - *Fail* ††

* † Internet Explorer 6–8 on Windows XP renders the correct text, but triggers an ActiveX security warning bar on the page load.
** This is an error on behalf of IE/Windows. As the object has no type nor data attributes, it has nothing that would bind it to a specific ActiveX control, and therefore should not trigger a security warning bar. This bug should be reported, and the respective bug number referenced here.
* †† Safari 2 renders a default-sized white box (as if embedding an external control). It breaks layout and does not display the desired content.

===== Safari 2 Tweak =====
The example is tweaked as follows to affect Safari 2 rendering:

<pre><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

<title>&lt;object> value excerption pattern: hCard Telephone Type Test Case</title>

<body class="vcard">
<h1 class="fn"><a class="url" href="http://ben-ward.co.uk">Ben Ward</a></h1>
<p class="tel">
<object data="data://" class="type">
<param name="value" value="cell">
Mobile:
</object>
<span class="value">415-123-567</span>
</p>
</body></pre>

A <code>data="data://"</code> URL attribute is added to the <code>object</code> element.

====== Safari 2 Result ======

* Safari 2 - Partial Pass†

† Safari 2 renders the object correctly on first page load, *however*, upon using the browser ‘Refresh’ function, the <code>object</code> element reverts to the broken rendering described in the original test.

===== Current Conclusion =====
* Safari 2 does not pass the test acceptably for this to be adopted as the only solution.
* Internet Explorer's security warnings are irritating, but justifiably unacceptable.
--[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 20:17, 26 Aug 2008 (PDT)

* I concur. And while we can report a bug against IE/Windows in the hopes that it is fixed eventually (perhaps even in IE8 before it ships), as this problem has been fixed in Safari 3, it is doubtful that a bug report against Safari 2 would be fixed in an intermediate version.
--[[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 03:07, 27 Aug 2008 (PDT)

==== misconceptions ====
===== misunderstanding of authoring unfriendliness =====
* not very hand-authoring friendly, compared to other proposals like: [[datetime-design-pattern#Machine-data_in_class|Machine data in class]]: <code><span class="type data-cell">Mobile:</span></code>, and [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-February/011583.html data prefix in titles]: <code><span class="type" title="data:cell">Mobile</span></code> [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]]
** It is even more hand-authoring unfriendly to introduce a new syntax, as "Machine data in class" does, and to some extent as "data prefix in titles does". Additional (especially new) syntax introduces far greater cognitive load to the author than a little bit more markup. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]

==== previous iterations ====
===== 2008-08-23 =====
<pre><nowiki>
<object class="type" lang="en-GB">
<param class="value" name="value" value="cell" />
mobile
</object>
</nowiki></pre>
====== disadvantages ======
* '''Invalid (X)HTML''' - although this pattern does make sense, it is worth noting that <code><param></code> is one of just a handful of HTML elements for which the <code>class</code> attribute is [http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/objects.html#h-13.3.2 not defined]. Use of this pattern will break validation unless a custom DTD is employed.

== details for handling specific property types ==
=== date and time separation ===

==== summary ====
By specifying a more precise parsing of the use of "value" excerption inside all datetime properties (e.g. dtstart, dtend, published, updated etc.), dates and times can be marked up separately, thus reducing/minimizing (and potentially eliminating) the readability issues that come with compound ISO8601 datetimes.

==== introductory example ====
The sentence:

<pre><nowiki>
The weekly dinner is tonight at 6:30pm.
</nowiki></pre>

would be marked up as:

<pre><nowiki>
The weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr>
at <abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

==== advantages ====
* re-uses the readable [[abbr-date-pattern]]
* identifies a similarly readable abbr-time-pattern.
* minimizes DRY violation distance, keeps machine data on exactly the same element as the respective human data
** even better than [[abbr-datetime-pattern]] does, which, in practice from experience often required specifying the date in machine readable form on the human readable time (separate from the human readable date).
* introduces no new class names - [[principle]] of minimal invention
* introduces no new use of the class attribute - principle of minimal invention again
* introduces no new syntax ([[datetime-design-pattern#problems_with_strtime_proposal|see above]] about any publishing method that requires the author to think like a programmer being a non-starter, and introducing new syntax almost always requires authors to think like programmers).
* and most importantly, introduces no dark data.

==== issues ====
Some potential issues were raised in IRC, and it helps to document/resolve them so that they are not brought up repeatedly.
* [[http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T163114 Does this sufficiently address the concerns raised with the current use of abbr-pattern?]]
*# The [[abbr-date-pattern]], as documented and explained by [[User:Adactio|Jeremy Keith]] is just fine (in contrast to the [[abbr-datetime-pattern]]).
*# Similar to the [[abbr-date-pattern]], this proposal implies/introduces the abbr-time-pattern, which is similarly acceptable.
*# In addition, as long there is incremental improvement, we are making progress. It is more important to take small steps that we know will help some things, rather than try to take a big step that is more risky in the attempt to help more but may not actually do so (as most big changes don't), therefore "sufficiently" is a flawed way of evaluating incremental fixes.
* Exposes data through tooltips. Separating into 2008-06-07 and 18:03 improves the ability for humans to consume the data, but still exposes data through tooltips and speech in formats that the publisher did not choose to use. --[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 04:52, 25 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*# This is a feature, not a bug. By making the duplicated data at least *somewhat* visible (rather than fully invisible), effective data quality is increased due to the fact that the probability of the ISO8601 and locale-specific data getting out-of-sync is reduced because of the increased visibility (and therefore the increased inspectability and more eye-balls looking at/for problems effect).
*# Workaround: if a site publisher wishes to customize the presentation of tooltips, they can do so with a nested span with title.
*#* That proposes extraneous mark-up maintain some publisher's wish not to have a tool-tip in the first place. I object to a microformat pattern requiring an immediate work-around to meet publisher's desires. It goes against ‘Humans first…’. --[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 09:09, 30 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*#*# Additional markup has nothing to do with "Humans first".
*#*# Additional markup to work-around minor issues (e.g. CSS, cross-browser compatibility, etc.) is a well accepted modern web design practice. It's not ideal, but it is both accepted and widely practiced. With the use of <code><span></code> and <code><div></code> elements, it's also semantically neutral, therefore not a problem from that perspective either.
*#*# Finally, it should not be our goal to try to satisfy *every* publisher, for that would make every microformat beholden to every publisher and contort the design of microformats in really poor ways. We must accept that not all publishers will adopt all microformats and that is ok. Our goal to incrementally increase the number of publishers that adopt microformats, not to try to satisfy each and every one.
*#* You *have* to have a tooltip though. It’s not possible to *not* have a tooltip. Not great.--[[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 12:58, 4 Sep 2008 (BST)
* Semantic misuses of ABBR. That ‘tonight’ is ever a textual, human abbreviation of ‘2008-06-24’ is not accepted.
*# Semantic stretch not misuse. It is a semantic abbreviation rather than a purely syntactical (character shortening) abbreviation, but it is an abbreviation in context nonetheless. Though this may stretch what may be commonly expected as an "abbreviation", the HTML4 spec does seem to allow some flexibility here ([http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1 HTML 4.01 9.2.1 Phrase elements]).
* Maintaining proper sentences with the expanded form. It is not always possible to use this mark-up and maintain proper sentences with the expanded form. e.g. <code>it's my <abbr class="bday" title="2005-06-20">birthday today</abbr>!</code> becomes ‘it's my 2005-06-20!’. And thus audio rendition of such titles can be nonsensical - "The weekly dinner is two thousand and eight dash zero six dash twenty four at eighteen thirty."
*# This can and should be addressed by improving authoring examples so that practices improve with experience.
* Publishing practices and desires show us that authors are not willing to compromise the semantics of abbr. [[User:Phae|Phae]] 04:30, 27 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*# Without specific citations of which authors and what specific issues they have, we are unable to address their issues.
*# See also above - not our goal to satisfy *every* publisher, but rather to incrementally satisfy more and more. We must accept that there may be some authors we are unable to satisfy in the immediate/short-term.
* [[http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T163435 That's getting pretty complicated]]
** Much less complicated than inventing yet another syntax ( " { ... } " ???? ) that web authors would have to learn.
*** But it's all in one place, rather than spreading it out.
**** The spreading it out is what current content publishing practices do already! It is much more important to map the machine data as close to the existing publishing practice as possible, than to try to "put it all in one place". The "put it all in one place" way of thinking is why people ended up sticking so much invisible metadata in the head of the document, which we know fails.

==== content requirements ====
Some requirements which enhance both human readability, ''and'' machine parsability (best of both) :
* date value excerpts MUST use hyphen separators. E.g. 2008-06-24. Not ok:20080624.
* time value excerpts MUST use colon separators (seconds optional, implied :00 if absent). E.g. 18:30 or 18:30:00. Not ok:183000.
* timezone value excerpts MUST use leading plus or minus and NO colon separator. E.g. -0700. Not ok:-07:00.

==== derivation ====
It's important to document the derivation/background of a brainstorm/proposal as it allows others to see some of the thinking that went into it, and avoid having to rediscuss alternatives already considered, and helps provide understanding as to why aspects of the design are as they are.
===== example with datetime =====
Here is a short code example:
<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is tonight at <span class="dtstart">2008-06-24T18:30</span>
</nowiki></pre>
===== example with abbr datetime =====
However that's not the easiest to read, nor do most people publish that as human visible text, so per the abbr-datetime pattern:
<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is tonight at <abbr class="dtstart" title="2008-06-24T18:30">6:30pm</abbr>
</nowiki></pre>

which has raised two issues:
# When "2008-06-24T18:30" is inspected by a human reading a tooltip, or spoken by a screen reader, it's not the most understandable thing (precise citation needed, perhaps an mp3 with screen reader used version info).
# There is a non-local violation of DRY (which IMHO is a worse problem, as it leads to worse data quality -[[User:Tantek|Tantek]]). That is, the "date" information is now not only in the text twice (as it was before), but those two instances of the date information are not on the same element, which makes it worse. That is, "tonight" is in the prose, ''outside'' of the element with the precise date "2008-06-24".

In analysis of examples of event information on the web, the date and time are often published in separate elements, often for display purposes.

Thus it is this existing content publishing practice which leads to this brainstorm proposal, to essentially to introduce a date and time value excerption longhand.

(Initially [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-21#T181634 Tantek's idea that he bounced off Jeremy Keith] ([http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T124652 similar idea conceived by Drew independently]) was to [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T161819 introduce new classes "datevalue", "timevalue"] and "tzvalue" for this purpose, but [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T171603 Bob Jonkman pointed out] that HTML5's time parsing algorithm enables a single <nowiki><time></nowiki> element to contain dates or times (with or without timezone) without having to explicitly say whether the value contains dates or times (with or without timezone). [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T171723 Bob then proposed] that thus all was needed was a single new "datetime" class name. This was the key realization that allowed minimal invention. Tantek pointed out that since from the type of property we already know it is a datetime, [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T171835 there was no need for even one new class name], that we could simply re-use "value" excerption, and simply more precisely specify the semantics/parsing in the case of datetime properties.)

===== example with new date and time value excerpts =====
Thus we markup the date and time separately, as value excerpts, using the [[abbr-date-pattern]] and an implied parallel abbr-time-pattern:

<pre><nowiki>
The weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr>
at <abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

===== separate subtrees =====
The proposal also allows setting the date and time in separate element subtrees as well, which may be necessary for some document structures:

<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr></span>
at <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

Note the two instances of dtstart, one of which sets the date for the dtstart, and the other of which sets the time.

The idea being, when a parser sees a datetime property (e.g. dtstart) with a value excerpt, that it only "set" the component of its full value that is specified by the value excerpt (e.g. the date), and that if lacking a complete datetime, it continue to parse additional instances of that datetime property for the remaining component(s) (e.g. the time).

Of course this only works for singular properties, but fortunately all instances of datetime properties so far are singular, so this works.
* hCard's <code>rev</code> is plural. [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]]
** can someone give a reference to this being the case? The RFC says "The value distinguishes the current revision of the information in this vCard for other renditions of the information." Does it make sense to have multiple REV dates in a single vCard?
*** The RFC is ambiguous as usual, but a contact card could conceivably have had several changes made to it, with a <code>rev</code> for each. ("Change logs" are fairly common on the web.) The [[hcard|hCard spec]] is fairly specific about which properties are [[hcard#Singular_vs._Plural_Properties|singular]] and which are not, and <code>rev</code> is not included in the list of singular properties.

===== reusing date data for multiple datetime properties =====
This also provides a *very* convenient way to re-use the same date information for start and end, e.g. expanding the example:

<pre><nowiki>
the weekly dinner is <span class="dtstart dtend"><abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">tonight</abbr></span>
from <span class="dtstart"><abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30</abbr></span> -
<span class="dtend"><abbr class="value" title="20:30">8:30pm</abbr></span>.
</nowiki></pre>

Note what just happened. we just eliminated another duplication of date information by reusing the start *date* information for the end *date* information and *only* specifying the end *time* information separately for the two properties.

Reducing the duplication (or triplication) of such data helps to reduce the chances of (even inadvertent) data corruption/drift/divergence among any duplicates.

===== time zones =====
There are a few choices for timezones.
# Simply include the time zone information as part of the time "value". <br /> E.g. <code><nowiki><abbr class="value" title="18:30-0700">6:30pm</abbr></nowiki></code>
# Or use another value excerpt for the timezone (was: <del>introduce the class name "tzvalue"</del>) <br /> E.g. <code><nowiki><abbr class="value" title="18:30">6:30pm</abbr> <abbr class="value" title="-0700">PDT</abbr></nowiki></code>
# Or allow both and let web authors decide. This is the current leaning.
#* if web authors want to specify timezone as part of the time (first example above), they can,
#* or if web authors visibly publish the timezone separately (second example above), then they can mark that up.
#* or if web authors wish to omit timezone information, they can do so as well, as most do today. In practice this works fine, as it creates a "floating" time which works fine in far more than the 80/20.

(more to come, documenting [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T161740 from IRC logs])

==== discussion ====
Opening up a discussion section even though documentation [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2008-06-24#T161740 from IRC logs] is still in progress. :)

* regarding the [[datetime-design-pattern#advantages|advantage]] of "and most importantly, introduces no dark data."
** "Dark data" is sometimes what publishers *want* to publish. To use the example of TV schedules which kick started the renewed discussion in this area, publishers will often not want to display the date. For instance, if a page entitled "Tomorrow's TV" and containing 300 different programmes marked up with <code>dtstart</code>, it is superfluous to explicitly display the date for each one. With this proposed solution the [[include|include pattern]] could be used to include the date into each vevent, but a visible link to the date on each programme would simply be confusing. Sometimes it just makes sense to hide some of the information you're publishing as a microformat - because the information you want to make explicit to parsers can be inferred from context by humans, or is more appropriately displayed at a different level of granularity for machines and humans. [[User:TobyInk|TobyInk]] 14:26, 24 Jun 2008 (PDT)
*** It doesn't matter whether publishers *want* to publish dark data or not. Invisible data always leads to poorer quality data. Publishers publish all kinds of invisible metadata in the heads of documents etc. because they want to, but their desire doesn't stop the data from becoming obsolete, diverging from the actual visible data etc. The quality of the data matters more than any publishers wish(es) of publishing in a specific format, or in a hidden way. In the example you gave, using the include pattern in that way would not result in any visible links, but merely empty include anchors. It never makes any sense to actually hide "some of the information you're publishing as a microformat", because historically that always results in some loss of data quality over time and thus the microformats [[principle]] of visible data instead of invisible metadata. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 14:32, 24 Jun 2008 (PDT)
**** All microformats hide ''some'' data. In the example <code><nowiki><span class="tel">01632 960123</span></nowiki></code>, the information that the long string of numbers represents a telephone number is invisible. And making it visible (<code><nowiki>Tel: <span class="tel">01632 960123</span></nowiki></code>) violates DRY. It's just a matter of where to draw the line.
***** That statement makes the mistake of conflating *type* data and *content* data. "tel" is not content data, just as <nowiki><p></nowiki> is not content data. It's markup, indicating the type of the data. Markup (type data) being invisible to the user has worked just fine. Content (content data) being invisible to the user is the problem of dark data. Or rather, if you think that everything is data, then you really should be spending time developing in a system that is built on that assumption, e.g. RDF, rather than microformats, which are built on HTML, and the clear separation of type of data (HTML elements, microformats properties) and content data (inner text, text attribute values).
****** My point is that there isn't a ''distinction'' between the two, but a ''continuum''. The choice of where to draw the line is never a clear one and always somewhat arbitrary. The vCard standard could quite easily have ended up with separate "TEL", "FAX" and "CELL" properties, in which case hCard would have ended up with <code><nowiki><foo class="tel"></nowiki></code>, <code><nowiki><bar class="fax"></nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki><baz class="cell"></nowiki></code>. Going the other way, they could have stored e-mail addresses as mailto: URLs, and then hCard would have <code><nowiki><a class="url" href="mailto:quux@example.com"></nowiki></code>. They chose the way they did, and as a result in hCard the distinction between a mailto: URI and an http: URI is largely invisible (in most circumstances only obvious by looking at the status bar when hovering), but the distinction between a telephone number and a fax number is visible. But that wasn't the only possible (nor the only reasonable) outcome.

== enabling more use of title attributes ==
=== valuetitle ===
Numerous proposals over the years have advocated expanding the use of the title attribute beyond the abbr tag for storing microformat property values. One simple mechanism for doing so would be to introduce a new value excerption class name and rule.

'''valuetitle''': before "normal" value excerption handling, first look (in the same manner as value-excerption) for the class name "valuetitle", if it is found, use the value of the title attribute on that element and do no further value excerption or other parsing for that property value.

E.g.

<code><nowiki>
<span class="type">
<span class="valuetitle" title="cell">mobile</span>
</span>
</nowiki></code>

In addition to first looking for "valuetitle" where a parser would look for "value", it seems reasonable to also allow "valuetitle" on the property element itself in order to minimize the markup necessary, e.g.:

<code><nowiki>
<span class="type" class="valuetitle" title="cell">mobile</span>
</nowiki></code>

Naming reasoning/methodology: by using the prefix "value-" it is clear that this is part of the value excerption pattern. By using the suffix "-title", it is clear that the "title" attribute is involved. Thus the name "valuetitle" is a good mnemonic for its functionality. See related [[naming-principles]].

"valuetitle" was suggested on 2008-08-30 by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] in a discussion with [[User:BenWard|Ben Ward]].

==== previous similar proposals ====
I believe there may have been a proposal for "usetitle"(link+citation needed) in the past that would function similarly. I think "valuetitle" is better than "usetitle" as "valuetitle" is more *descriptive*, i.e. meaning "the title is the value", as opposed to "usetitle", which is more *prescriptive*, i.e. "use the title". [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 08:13, 1 Sep 2008 (PDT)

== related pages ==
* [[value-excerption-pattern]]
* [[value-excerption-pattern-issues]]
* [[hcard#Value_excerpting|hCard: Value Excepting]]

User:JulianStahnke

2007-12-30T16:43:27Z

JulianStahnke:

Hello, my name is Julian Stahnke and I work for [http://www.last.fm Last.fm]. I’m 22 years old and live in London after spending the first 20 years of my life in Bremen, Germany.

<div id="ccpublicdomainrelease" style="background: #f7f8ff; border: 1px solid #88a; padding: 5px; font-size: 80%;"><span style="float:left;margin:4em 0">http://creativecommons.org/images/public/norights-a.gif</span><span style="float:right;margin:4em 0">http://creativecommons.org/images/public/norights-a.gif</span>
<div style="background:#fff;margin:0 88px;padding:2px"><div style="text-align: center; background: #ccf;">'''Released into public domain'''</div><p>I agree to release all my text and image contributions (past, present and future), into the [[#public-domain|public domain*]]. Please be aware that other contributors might not have done the same, so if you want to use pages with my contributions under public domain terms, please check past contributors' user pages.</p><p id="public-domain">"^ [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/ Creative Commons Public Domain License], the original at http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/ or any later version published by Creative Commons; with either a waiver of rights, or an assertion that no rights attach to a particular work."</p></div></div>
[[Category:public domain license|{{PAGENAME}}]]

events/2008-london-microformats-vevent

2007-12-12T11:43:45Z

JulianStahnke: /* Attending */

= London Microformats vEvent =

This is a social [[events|event]] planned for the first quarter of 2008 in London.

__TOC__

== Details ==

TBC

This page will be filled as details are decided.

== Summary ==
We hope to put on a small social event in London in the first quarter of 2008. It'll feature a couple of speakers on the topic of microformats and the semantic web and hopefully some drinks too.

== Organisers ==
*[[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] - http://fberriman.com
*[[User:DrewMcLellan|Drew McLellan]] - http://allinthehead.com

== Attending ==
Please put yourself down if you're interested in attending an event in the first part of 2008. We're currently using this page to gauge interest right now.

* PJ Barry
* James Darling
* Jason Cale
* David Thompson
* Adam Liptrot
* Mark Ford
* Elliot Jay Stocks
* Mark Ng
* Julian Stahnke
* Add your name
* ..

== Blog Posts ==

== Photos ==

== Additional Links / Information ==

hcard-advocacy

2007-10-14T17:37:56Z

JulianStahnke: /* Online Profiles */

<h1>hCard advocacy</h1>
{{TOC-right}}
Adding [[hcard|hCard]] to these sites would make them quite handy for their users and for being indexed:

== Online Profiles ==
=== User Profiles ===
Nearly every website that has a login has a page representing the public profile of the user that other users can see and interact with. Many such sites already [[hcard-implementations|support hCard]] (e.g. ClaimID.com, Flickr.com, Technorati.com). Here are some that I think would benefit from the addition of hCard to their profile / user pages, making them [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]]. In addition, if such profiles have friends lists, we should encourage them to add support for [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists]]. Both of these help [[social-network-portability]] and help the site become a node on the [[open-social-web]].

Feel free to add more such sites that have a social network profile-like component and we'll see what we can do. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
* Wikimedia - including this site, Wikipedia (See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats WikiProject Microformats]), Wikitravel, etc.
**It would be nice if <nowiki>[[User:YOURNAME]]</nowiki> links generated proper (mini)hCards. ([http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=12177&oldid=12173#Lazyweb per SteveIvy]; moved from 'to-do')
* Alexa.com has online profiles for domains with contact information. Would be great if they could add hCard to those. 2007-04-18 [[User:Tantek]] requested of [[User:BenWest]] e.g.:
** http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=alexa.com/
** http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=w3.org/
* [http://dodgeball.com/ Dodgeball] profiles and venues need [[hcard|hCard]] for people and organizations
** [http://www.dodgeball.com/user?uid=30209 a profile]
** [http://www.dodgeball.com/venue?vid=23551 a venue] - could also use [[hreview|hReview]] for the user reviews listed there for the venue
* [http://idubyou.com/ i dub you]
* [http://www.icq.com/people ICQ, where they show people's profiles and have a few ways of contacting and/or connection to people.]
* http://youtube.com The very popular YouTube have profiles that do include some information that might use [[hcard|hCard]].
* [http://www.facebook.com Facebook] is a very popular (over 13 million members) community.
**Requested support of microformats in openly asked question to Mark Zuckerberg during Q&A at TechCrunch40 conference, founder, and got [http://therealmccrea.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/facebook-to-support-open-standards/ lukewarm reply]. Glimmer of hope: "When it's important to our users, we'll do it." Thus if you are a Facebook user, please make a request to them to support microformats and tell them it is important to you. Feel free to add your name below. 2007-09-17 [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
**Requested in message to developer, 2007-09-28 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
* [http://pownce.com Pownce] - I'm talking with them, and have requested the following (and a bit more) as of 2007-07-29 - [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
** needs to add class="photo" to image icon
*** 2007-09-02 success!
** needs to add class="note" to description
*** 2007-09-02 success!
** needs to add hCard+XFN to friends lists.
*** 2007-09-02 partial success, friends lists have hCard, have asked Daniel Burka to add rel="acquaintance" per [[xfn-clarifications#are_you_my_friend_yes_or_no|XFN clarifications for yes/no friend relationships]]. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 10:41, 3 Sep 2007 (PDT)
** 2007-09-02 note also XFN rel="me" success: http://pownce.com/t/notes/644806/
* [http://anobii.com Anobii] - I asked them if they could implement hCard-supporting profiles and XFN on 2007-10-05 - [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]]
** Response: We will definitely spend some time to consider the suggestion.
** Got another mail from one of their developers, they’re looking into it.

=== Company Profiles ===
* [http://getsatisfaction.com/ Satisfaction Unlimited], has company profiles, e.g. http://getsatisfaction.com/satisfaction/ that could be marked up with hCards.
** Contacted Ted Grubb at the company and requested hCards for company and its employees for all their company profiles. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 11:24, 2 Sep 2007 (PDT)

== Online Venues ==
There are many sites that offer pages that represent organizations and venues that could benefit from being marked up with hCard. [http://local.yahoo.com/ Yahoo Local] venues are marked up with hCards for example. Here are some more sites that have venues that would benefit from hCard markup.
* Yelp.com
* http://opentable.com - a site for making restaurant reservations
** [[hcard|hCard]] for restaurants
** [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] for free busy times at restaurants
** [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] for your reservations
** Tantek has emailed a friend who is a former employee of OpenTable with the above three requests, in the hopes she can pass on the message. In addition, Ryan King may know someone in marketing there. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:57, 30 Sep 2007 (PDT)

== Plugins for and modifications of web-applications ==
Many web-applications use plugin-systems to change their behavior and content. Most notable is probably web-forums and blogs. Many of these have a community of coders that develop plugins or code to modify the default behavior of these web-applications. Here are some sites where it might be interesting to develop hcard-related plugins/mods.

* forum-software
** http://www.phpbb.com
* blog-software
** http://b2evolution.net

==Telephone Directory Listings==
Telephone Directory Listings could usefully apply hCard to their results pages, e.g. (please add other examples!):

* [http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/ BT]
** '''Requested''' via [http://tinyurl.com/yhtdjy BT feedback form], 2006-11-13 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
** BT confirm that they will consider this at their next re-build. 2006-12 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
* [http://118118.com 118118.com]
** '''Requested''' via e-mail, 2006-11-13. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
* [http://192.com/ 192.com]
** '''Requested''' via [http://www.192.com/support/feedback.cfm 192.com feedback form], 2007-03-07 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
* [http://www.skype.com/intl/en-gb/download/features/skypefind/ SkypeFind]
** ''Requested''' via [http://support.skype.com/?_a=tickets&_m=submit Skype feedback form], 2007-03-16 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
* [http://www.whitepages.com/ White Pages (USA/ Canada)]
* [http://www.whitepages.com.au/ White Pages (Australia)]
* [http://www.switchboard.com/ Stitchboard (USA)]]
* [http://people.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! People Search (USA)]
* [http://www.whowhere.com/ Lycos People Search (USA)]
* [http://www.bsnl.co.in/map.htm BSNL (India)]
* [http://www.saynoto0870.com/ saynoto0870.com] (UK listings of geo vs. non-geo equivalents)
** '''Requested''' by feedback form, 2007-10-13. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

==Postal (ZIP) code Finders==
Postal code Finders could usefully apply hCard to their results pages. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 12:09, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)

e.g. (please add other examples!):
*[http://pol.royalmail.com/dda/txt/pf.asp Royal Mail] (UK)
**Requested via [http://tinyurl.com/ya4hzu Royal Mail feedback form], 2006-11-13 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**Acknowledged 2006-11-30. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

==Government hCard==
===UK Gov. hCard===
* Parliament: [http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm Alphabetical List of Members of Parliament] (see also [http://www.parliament.uk/directories/directories.cfm other lists of MPs and Lords]). [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

===Europe Gov. hCard===
* e.g. [http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/westmidlands.asp UK MEPs]

=== MAPLight ===
http://maplight.org/ can use a bunch of hCard markup, e.g.
* individual politicians, like [http://www.maplight.org/map/us/legislator/408/individuals Nancy Pelosi]
* mentions of politicians on interest pages like [http://www.maplight.org/map/us/interest/L1300 Teachers unions]
* their contact info of course: http://www.maplight.org/contact
Requested by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:13, 30 May 2007 (PDT) in person at the NetSquared2007 conference.

== Organization Contacts ==
Many companies and organizations have about or contact pages that could benefit from being marked up with hCard. [http://technorati.com/about/contact.html Technorati's contact page] for example is both marked up with hCard and has a convenient "Add to Address Book" hCard to vCard converter link. The following company sites could benefit from similar markup (and, until user agents support hCards natively, "Add to Address Book" links). [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
*Adobe
**[http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/offices.html Adobe offices]
***Requested using contact form, 2006-12-14. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*Google
**Contacts, e.g.
*** [http://www.google.com/intl/en/contact/index.html Google.com contact page]
**** Requested by asking Google Employee KevinMarks via instant messaging to add hCard to that page along with a "Add to Address Book" link [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 11:32, 10 Apr 2007 (PDT) and RyanKing in IRC
*** [http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en/contact/index.html Google UK], etc.
*[http://ibm.com/ IBM]
**[http://www.ibm.com/contact/us/ IBM contact page]
*** Requested by asking IBM employee Michael Kaply via IRC 2007-07-31 08:57am PDT: "how about getting hCard and 'Add to address book' links on the IBM contact page?"
*[http://www.mozilla.com/ Mozilla]
**[http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/about/legal.html Mozilla legal notices]
*Opera
**People, e.g. [http://people.opera.com/howcome/ Håkon Wium Lie]; could also be hResume
*W3C
**[http://www.w3.org/Consortium/contact W3C contact]
**[http://www.w3.org/People/all W3C Staff listing] and individual pages, e.g. [http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/ Tim Berners-Lee]
***Requested by e-mail. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

== Individual hCards ==
Getting these sites to at least add hCard to their home page or contact info page and then [http://pingerati.net/ping/ ping Pingerati] would be an excellent start with getting them some experience with microformats and thinking about adding microformats to other places in their sites that make sense:
* [http://metaweb.com/ Metaweb Technologies]
** [http://www.freebase.com/ Freebase ]

==Trade directories==
* [http://www.booktrust.org.uk/info/search_publishers.php BookTrust (UK book publishers)]
* [http://www.gepir.org/ Global Electronic Party Information Register] (GEPIR) over 1 million companies
** Requested 2007-08-31 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

==Other hCard==
* [http://www.imdb.com/ Internet Movie Database] (IMDb) for people (real, not characters), e.g. [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000007/ Humphrey Bogart]. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 02:49, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)
**Can't find contact info! [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**See also example, below.
*Wikitravel
**e.g. [http://wikitravel.org/en/Birmingham_%28England%29 Wikitravel - Birmingham]
***[http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:MarkJaroski&curid=2699&diff=0&oldid=10663&rcid=19955 Wikitravel is about to hugely roll out hCard] Mark Jaroski
***See also [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Microformats Wikitravel:Microformats]
*[http://orlabs.oclc.org/Identities/ WorldCat Identities]
**The recently prototyped WorldCat Identities provides pages for 20 million 'identities', mainly authors and people who are the subjects of published titles.
**Requested by feedback form, 2007-03-09 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
** No reply, as of 02:02, 13 Jun 2007 (PDT)
*[http://geonames.org GeoNames]
**Requested by e-mail, 2007-06-07 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**Reply confirms that they will deploy hCard and Geo
**Geo noted in use, 06:08, 30 Jul 2007 (PDT)
*[http://www.oup.com/oxforddnb/info/ Oxford Dictionary of National Biography] (ODNB); subscription based, but [http://www.oxforddnb.com/public/lotw/ some ODNB articles available free]. All 56,000+ entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.findagrave.com/ Find-a-Grave] e.g. [http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=680 Karl Marx]. Most entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.biography.com/ Biography.com] e.g. [http://www.biography.com/impressionists/monet-bio.jsp Camille Monet] Most posthumous entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.cwgc.org/ Commonwealth War Graves Commission] (1.75 million people's details)
**E-mail sent 2007-08-24. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

== Successes ==

*Details of hCard should be added to the [http://www.imc.org/pdi/ Internet Mail Consortium's vCard page]
**Requested by e-mail, 2006-11-24 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**'''Success''' achieved 2006-11-25. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*W3C
**'''W3C webmaster''' [http://www.w3.org/People/Jean-Gui/ Jean-Guilhem Rouel] now has an hCard. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 15:41, 4 Apr 2007 (PDT)
* [http://jpgmag.com/ JPG magazine] - have sent email to their web developer with sample marked up member profile with [[hcard|hCard]] and [[xfn]] [[rel-me|rel="me"]]. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:48, 21 Feb 2007 (PST)
** [[hcard|hCard]]+[[xfn]] [[rel-me|rel="me"]] support as of March 2007.
* Twitter.com - working on it [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST).
** Completed [[hcard|hCard]]+[[xfn]]+[[hatom|hAtom]] support last week with help from Chris Messina. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:01, 16 May 2007 (PDT)
* Consumating.com - working on it [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
** [[hcard|hCard]] profiles, [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] events as of March 2007.
* [http://sunlightlabs.com/api/ SunlightLabs API] provides profiles for US Congresspeople. Their [http://sunlightlabs.com/api/masterref/megatable.php megatable] could easily be marked up with hCard, and their APIs could return hCards and hCard fields.
** [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:30, 20 Apr 2007 (PDT) contacted them and requested that they add hCard to megatable, consider a GethCard API method, and potentially a GethResume API method for each person.
** [[User:CarlAnderson|CarlAnderson]] 26 Apr 2007: http://sunlightlabs.com/api does now have a people.getHCard.php API method to get an hCard for every member of congress. See the documentation at http://sunlightlabs.com/api/people.getHCard.php. An example call: http://api.sunlightlabs.com/people.getHCard.php?id=fakeopenID1
** [[User:CarlAnderson|CarlAnderson]] 30 Apr 2007: I created a page of hCards for every member of congress: http://sunlightlabs.com/api/hcards/index.php

===Wikpedia hCard===
*Infobox Templates for people mostly now have [[hcard|hCard]] in their generated markup
** [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Person Infobox_Person]; e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson E. O. Wilson]
** [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_actor Infobox_actor]; e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Bogart Humphrey Bogart]
*Addressable buildings e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Crown%2C_Birmingham The Old Crown, Birmingham]
*Tourist attractions, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadbury_World%2C_Birmingham Cadbury World]
*Companies, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco Tesco] (note headquarters address in infobox)
*Railway Stations, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Barr_railway_station Perry Barr]
*etc.
*See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats WikiProject Microformats] [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 13:10, 28 Jan 2007 (PST)
* See also [[persondata|discussion of Wikipedia's Persondata]], which aligns very closely with hCard, but has additional date and place of birth & death fields. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 13:23, 28 Mar 2007 (PDT)

Some microformat data is now (2007-09-14) being removed from Wikipedia; see, for example [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Gaudi_Buildings&diff=prev&oldid=157704557 List_of_Gaudi_Buildings]

==See also==
*[[advocacy]] (in particular see [[advocacy#Geo|Geo advocacy]] - for the Geo microformat, including cases where it may be used inside hCard)
*[[advocacy-email-samples]]
{{hcard-related-pages}}

irc-people

2007-10-13T12:41:41Z

JulianStahnke: IRC nick instead of name

A list of [[irc|IRC]] regulars, sorted by nick, and their normal timezones (winter/summer).

* {{irc user|Adam Ballai|AdamBallai|-700/-700}}
* {{irc user|Adam Craven|AdamCraven|+0000}}
* {{irc user|Alexander Graf|AlexanderGraf|+0100}}
* {{irc user|Tomasino|aloneone|-0500}}
* {{irc user|AmanuelTewolde|Amanuel|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|Amette|amette|+1000}}
* {{irc user|Amir Guindehi|AmirGuindehi|+1000}}
* {{irc user|Ajaswa|Andrew Jaswa|-0500}}
* {{irc user|AnselHalliburton|anselxyz|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|Ashe Dryden|Ashe|-600}}
* {{irc user|Ashley|Ashley|+1000}}
* {{irc user|Tyler Roehmholdt|Baristo|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|BenjaminCarlyle|BenjaminCarlyle|+1000}}
* {{irc user|HenriBergius|bergie|+0200/+0300}}
* {{irc user|Ben Ward|BenWard|+0000}}
* {{irc user|BenWest|bewest|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|B.K._DeLong|bkdelong|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|Robert|blueace|+0100}}
* {{irc user|BluesMoon|bluesmoon|+0530}}
* {{irc user|BobChao|BobChao|+0800}}
* {{irc user|Bob Jonkman|BobJonkman|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|Boneill|boneill|+0000}}
* {{irc user|Brian|briansuda|+0000}}
* {{irc user|Briski|Briski|+0000}}
* {{irc user|BryanL|BryanL|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|BryanRieger|Bryan Rieger|+0000}}
* {{irc user|Bug-E|Bug-E|+0200}}
* {{irc user|CarlaHufstedler|carlamagpie|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|Colin_Barrett|cbarrett|-1000}}
* {{irc user|ColinDDevroe|cdevroe|-0500/-0600}}
* {{irc user|Cgriego|cgriego|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|Charlvn|Charl|+0200/+0200}}
* {{irc user|CharlesRoper|charles_r|0000/+0100}}
* {{irc user|ChristopherStJohn|cks|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|Cloud|Cloud|+0000}}
* {{irc user|Cruster|cruster|+0200}}
* {{irc user|Csarven|csarven|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|ChrisBrentano|ctb|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|DanC|DanC|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|DanielBurka|DanielBurka|-0400}}
* {{irc user|DannyAyers|danja|+0100/+0200}}
* {{irc user|Dave Cardwell|davecardwell|+0000}}
* {{irc user|DavidMead|DavidMead|-0400}}
* {{irc user|DenisDefreyne|ddfreyne|+0100/+0200}}
* {{irc user|DeanEro|deanero|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|DerrickPallas|DerrickPallas|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|DimitriGlazkov|dglazkov|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|DiegoBudny|DiegoBudny|<small>-unspecified-</small>}}
* {{irc user|Dan Kubb|dkubb|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|DrErnie|DrErnie|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|DrewMcLellan|drewinthehead|+0000/+0100}}
* {{irc user|DrewBell|droob|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|DimitriosZachariadis|dzach|+0200/+0300}}
* {{irc user|DydimusTK|dydimustk|-0600}}
* {{irc user|Ed Summers|edsu|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|Enric|Enric|-0800/-0700}} (alt sp "enric")
* {{irc user|Evan|evanpro|-0500}}
* {{irc user|ChrisMessina|factoryjoe|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|Fil|Fil|+0200}}
* {{irc user|MarkoMrdjenovic|friedcell|+0100/+0200}}
* {{irc user|GarethR|garethr|+0000/+0100}}
* {{irc user|Grantbow|Grantbow|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|Griffin|Griffin|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|Aubergine10|Guy Fraser|+0100/+0000}}
* {{irc user|HenrichPoehls|HenrichP|+0100}}
* {{irc user|IanHickson|Hixie|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|Hlb|hlb|+0800-0700}}
* {{irc user|EdwardOConnor|hober|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|Ichigo|ichigo|+1000}}
* {{irc user|Alper|illustir|+0100}}
* {{irc user|Inkbase|inkbase|-0800/-0700}}
* {{irc user|IwaiMasaharu|iwaim|+0900}}
* {{irc user|Izo|IZO|<small>-unspecified-</small>}}
* {{irc user|JamieKnight|JamieKnight|+1000/0000}}
* {{irc user|JoeGregorio|jcgregorio|<small>-unspecified-</small>}}
* {{irc user|WizardIsHungry|jcw9|-0500/-0400}}
* {{irc user|Adactio|Jeremy Keith|+0000}}
* {{irc user|JasonK|jkridner|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|JeffMcNeill|jeffmcneill|-1000}}
* {{irc user|JimboJW|jimbojw|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|Jonathan_Arkell|jonnay|-0700/0600}}
* {{irc user|JosephHolsten|josephholsten|-0600/-0500}}
* {{irc user|JulianStahnke|julianstahnke|+0000}}
* {{irc user|Kapowaz|kapowaz|+0000/+0100}}
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audio-info-issues

2007-10-11T15:53:51Z

JulianStahnke: /* Votes */

= Audio info issues =

This page defines the current issues with the hAudio draft specification. Any issues that have not yet been resolved are marked with an {{OpenIssue}} tag.

== Contributors ==

In order of contribution:

* [[User:Brian|Brian Suda]]
* [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] - Digital Bazaar, Inc. (Bitmunk)
* [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] - WebOrganics
* Michael Smethurst

= Problem: Redundant Property Names =

The audio info proposal has invented several new properties. These should be condensed, removed and/or discussed further.

== image-summary Property==
hAudio ISSUE #1: {{OpenIssue}}

[[audio-info-proposal#Image Summary|image-summary]] - This is a small graphic image that summarizes the audio piece. It should NOT be a MUST to use the <img> element, (it shouldn't be a MUST anyway) ~BrianSuda. There are several other formats that already use the PHOTO property, including [[hcard|hCard]] and [[hreview|hReview]]. This has potential to collapse and remove image-summary.

===Possible Solutions===

# Use PHOTO instead.

=== Votes ===

* +1 for using PHOTO [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 06:40, 14 Aug 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for using PHOTO [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] 15:49, 14 Aug 2007 (GMT)

== audio-title Property ==
hAudio ISSUE #2: {{OpenIssue}}

[[audio-info-proposal#Audio Title|audio-title]] - There is an on going debate where this should be something else such as FN or SUMMARY, or RECORDING.

===Possible Solutions===

# Use FN instead
# Use SUMMARY instead
# Use RECORDING instead for singular audio recordings (songs, movements, chapters) and ALBUM/RELEASE for collections of audio recordings.

===Votes===

* +1 : use RECORDING and ALBUM [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 18:20, 27 Sep 2007 (PDT)
* -1 : don't change audio-title [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] 15:48, 14 Aug 2007 (GMT)
* +1 for using FN, no clear difference between two so why invent another [[User:DavidJanes|David Janes]] 14 August 2007

== published-date Property ==
hAudio ISSUE #3: {{OpenIssue}}

[[audio-info-proposal#Published Date|published-date]] is a duplicate of the PUBLISHED property found-in [[hatom|hAtom]]. This can be collapsed to a single property name

Alternatively, we could use <code>dtstart</code>, from hCalendar (shouldn't the published date be an hCalendar event?) [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

===Possible Solutions===

# Use PUBLISHED instead
# Use DTSTART instead

===Votes===

* +1 for using PUBLISHED instead of PUBLISHED-DATE [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 06:41, 14 Aug 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for using PUBLISHED instead of PUBLISHED-DATE [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] 15:51, 14 Aug 2007 (GMT)

== album-title Property==
hAudio ISSUE #9: {{OpenIssue}}

It has been proposed that something else should be used instead of '''album-title'''.

===Possible Solutions===

# Use ALBUM instead of ALBUM-TITLE
# Use RELEASE instead of ALBUM-TITLE
# Keep ALBUM-TITLE

=== Votes ===

* +1 for using ALBUM [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 09:31, 12 Sep 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for using RELEASE [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-September/000832.html Michael Smethurst], 12 Sep 2007

== Collection Names==
hAudio ISSUE #10: {{OpenIssue}}

The following have been proposed for collection names if hAlbum is going to be integrated into hAudio.

===Possible Solutions===

* ALBUM-TITLE, ALBUM, or RELEASE - used for vinyl albums, CD singles, Ringles (haha), EPs, and CDs.
* PODCAST - used for podcasts.
* TOPLIST, CHART - used for top 10, top 40 and lists of audio recordings. Can be re-used for television, short film and video recordings in the future.
* PLAYLIST - used to contain a grouped list of audio recordings and video recordings. Could be re-used for television episodes, short films, and video recordings in the future.
* TRACK - used for each item in the audio-recording collection above.

=== Votes ===

* +1 for using ALBUM [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 09:31, 12 Sep 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for using PODCAST [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 09:54, 12 Sep 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for using TRACK [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 09:54, 12 Sep 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for using TRACK [[User:ChrisNewell|Chris Newell]] 12:21, 25 Sep 2007 (GMT+1)
* +1 for using CHART [[User:ChrisNewell|Chris Newell]] 12:21, 25 Sep 2007 (GMT+1)
* +1 for using PLAYLIST [[User:ChrisNewell|Chris Newell]] 12:21, 25 Sep 2007 (GMT+1)
* +1 for using RELEASE [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-September/000832.html Michael Smethurst], 12 Sep 2007

=Problem: Display properties of rel-patterns=
hAudio ISSUE #4: {{OpenIssue}}

In order to solve the [[audio-info-issues#Historical:_Graphic_buttons_in_rel-patterns|graphic-only buttons in rel-patterns problem]], it was identified that part of the problem dealt with attempting to create relationship quadruples, or incorrect relationship triples.

If there is no text to display, then how does one place the item into a menu/display for Operator/Firefox? Grabbing the image and placing it in a UI is a difficult argument to make - there are a variety of image sizes that might not do well in the Operator UI (or Firefox 3 UI).

Typically, rel-patterns are created by doing something like the following:

<a rel="RELATIONSHIP" href="URL">TARGET</a>

The final triple that is created can be read thusly: URL is related to TARGET via RELATIONSHIP.

<a rel="brother" href="/people/john_f_kennedy.html">Robert Kennedy</a>

The URL above would be read like so: The URL <code>http://www.people.org/john_f_kennedy.html</code> is related to <code>Robert Kennedy</code> via a relationship of type <code>brother</code>. In other words, John F. Kennedy is Robert Kennedy's brother.

Using rel-pattern as such:

<a rel="brother" href="/people/john_f_kennedy.html" title="Robert Kennedy">
<img src="/images/robert_kennedy.gif" alt="Robert Kennedy" />
</a>

It isn't defined if the displayable value of the relationship "Robert Kennedy" should be used from

* the @alt attribute on the IMG element
* the @title attribute on the anchor (A element)
* or, not at all.

This is because the rel attribute is only concerned with the relationship between the current page and the href. The TITLE of the link is not defined by rel.

It is quite often that a site uses an image instead of a text link to present actions. For example: Instead of using the text "Download", they will use a graphic image with a downward-facing arrow.

How do we present this option to a human being in a non-web-page UI?

===Possible Solutions===

====Do nothing====

The decision should be left up to uF implementors. The market should decide how the information is displayed. This is something that does not need to be explicit in the spec, but can be left flexible to developers to implement as they see best and to adapt to their applications and future developments. Forcing someone to use the @alt or @title prevents them from reusing the actual image or using their own graphics because the spec mandated the "correct" use.

====Not Specified but Publish hAudio Best Practices Section====

This is a slight variation on the "Do nothing" approach. Implementation is still left up to the uF/application implementors, but we recommend the following in a "Best Practices" section for hAudio:

* Use TITLE on rel-patterns, which is backed up by the following from [[rel-payment#RelPayment]]:

Authors should use the "title" attribute to provide a human readable
description of the type of support pointed to by the hyperlink.
Aggregators may use the contents of the "title" attribute to provide
additional information about the support link to their users.
E.g. <a href="[url]" rel="payment" title="Donate Money Via PayPal">.

* If TITLE is not used, the link text that is displayed in a text-only web browser should be used.

====Use the TITLE Attribute====

Using @title was proposed in the following post to the mailing list:

http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000590.html

=====Benefits=====

# It POSH-ifies the website.
# It works well with Operator, Firefox 3 and other uF parsers/UIs.
# It adds the accessibility/screen reader problem.

=====Drawbacks=====

# There are arguments stating that the @alt attribute would be a better choice: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000593.html
# there are arguments that this is not part of how the rel attribute was designed and it is layering semantics onto the attribute that don't exist in the HTML spec.

====New Label Property====

Create a specific new property that defines the label title, or other <code>displayable</code> Microformat class that should specify the text value to be used.

===Votes===

* +1 for not specifying, but providing best practices section [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 06:54, 14 Aug 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for Do Nothing recommend proper use of @alt [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] 16:03, 14 Aug 2007 (GMT)

=Problem: Peeking into child elements=
hAudio ISSUE #5: {{OpenIssue}}

It has been proposed that peeking into child elements that are not labeled with microformatted class names goes against the established publishing practices of microformats. In other words, if there isn't a microformatted class name on the element, we shouldn't be reading/interpreting the contents of the element.

There have been several proposed solutions, one of which automatically peeks at certain sub-elements, such as @alt in IMG:

<a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/">
<img src="/images/deed/by.png" alt="Creative Commons Attribution 3.0" />
</a>

A microformat parser would take the HTML above and automatically parse out the contents of the @alt attribute on all child elements.

Another approach would parse out display-able elements based on a pre-defined microformatted relationship such as <code>displayble</code>, like so:

<a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/">
<img rel="displayable" src="/images/deed/by.png" alt="Creative Commons Attribution 3.0" />
</a>

===Possible Solutions===

# Microformats should never peek into child elements when displaying information.
# The community should decide on a set of attributes and elements that are peek-able (for example: any element that contains an @alt attribute should be peek-able)
# Only elements that are marked with a class of a specified type, such as <code>displayable</code>, should be used to display the text.
# Display what common text-only browser displays (in the case of Lynx, the value in @alt).

====Benefits====

# Valid HTML requires that the ALT tag is specified anyway, thus we're helping people write proper HTML.
# Because of the item above, this is in-line with what most text-based browsers and screen readers expect.
# There is no danger of @title and @alt both being specified and read by a screen reader.
## ?? what about @title on the 'a' and an @alt on the image?

====Drawbacks====
# The point was raised that ALT tags are not used properly on the web: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000598.html and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Why_is_IMG_alt_not_being_picked_up

===Votes===

* +1 for displaying what a common text-only browser or screen reader would display [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 06:46, 14 Aug 2007 (PDT)
* +1 Display what common text-only browser displays [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] 15:58, 14 Aug 2007 (GMT)

= Problem: Summary Property is Missing =
hAudio ISSUE #6: {{OpenIssue}}

Martin McEvoy did another analysis run of the [[audio-info-examples]] data and [[audio-info-examples#Further_Analysis_Regarding_Summaries|found that audio descriptions existed]] for many of the examples. It has been proposed that audio descriptions should be added to the hAudio Microformat.

== Possible Solutions ==

* Add audio descriptions to the hAudio specification using SUMMARY
* Add audio descriptions to the hAudio specification using DESCRIPTION

===Votes===

* +1 for using DESCRIPTION [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 06:45, 14 Aug 2007 (PDT)
* +1 for using DESCRIPTION [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] 15:46, 14 Aug 2007 (GMT)

=Problem: TRACK does not work in tables=
hAudio ISSUE #11: {{OpenIssue}}

Julian Stahnke noted that [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-October/000940.html the new track proposal doesn't work with tables ]. The previous examples required one to mark up track information using haudio, thus the publisher would have to do the following to mark up a track:

<pre>
<span class="track">1.
<span class="haudio>
...
</span>
</span>
</pre>

The nested approach above doesn't work when working with HTML tables because TR is usually the containing element of a track in the audio examples and nothing but a TD element is allowed inside of it. In other words, HAUDIO cannot be nested inside of TRACK in a table.

== Possible Solutions ==

One approach lets HAUDIO to co-exist with TRACK. Here is an example of valid markup using this approach:

<pre>
<div class="haudio">
...
<table>
<tr><th>#</th><th>Track</th><th>Length</th></tr>
<tr class="track haudio">
<td>1.</td>
<td class="recording">Sanity</td>
<td><abbr class="duration" title="P348S">5:48</abbr></td>
</tr>
<tr class="haudio track">
<td>2.</td>
<td class="recording">Highway To Hell</td>
<td><abbr class="duration" title="P219S">3:39</abbr></td>
</tr>
</table>
...
</div>
</pre>

Note that in the above example, order doesn't matter since we are stating that a TRACK *is* HAUDIO.

* Allow HAUDIO to co-exist with TRACK

===Votes===

* +1 for allowing HAUDIO to co-exist with TRACK [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 19:52, 4 Oct 2007 (PDT)

=Problem: CONTRIBUTOR and TRACK are not publisher friendly=
hAudio ISSUE #12: {{OpenIssue}}

In order to specify a CONTRIBUTOR or TRACK, a publisher must use VCARD or HAUDIO mark up. This is annoying if the only piece of information being marked up is that of the artist name or the track name, which is usually what happens in most blog postings. We should provide a mechanism to make it easier for a publisher to blog about an album with a contributor or a track.

== Possible Solutions ==

We could enable this behavior by allowing the following short-form for TRACK, in addition to the HAUDIO long-form:

<pre>
<div class="haudio">
...
<span class="album">Album Title</span>
...
<span class="track">Song Name</span>
...
</div>
</pre>

and the following short-form for CONTRIBUTOR, in addition to the VCARD long-form:

<pre>
<span class="contributor">Phish</span>
</pre>

* Make CONTRIBUTOR and TRACK accept short-forms that do not require VCARD or HAUDIO markup.

===Votes===

* +1 for making CONTRIBUTOR and TRACK easier to specify by allowing the short-form representation [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 20:03, 4 Oct 2007 (PDT)
* +1 [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 11 October 2007

= Problem: Track Number is Missing =
hAudio ISSUE #7: {{OpenIssue}}

We assumed that the track number was going to be encapsulated by XOXO in the beginning, but it seems as if this is not the case. Unfortunately, we didn't analyze the number of sites that had tracks in them. We should do this and report our findings to the mailing list. It is also important to note that most of the audio formats support track numbers.

== Possible Solutions ==

* Gather examples and add track-number to hAudio if there is enough evidence to support it.

== Findings ==

It was [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-October/000972.html announced] that a re-analysis of the track-number in the audio-info-examples showed widespread support for a positional element. POSITION has been added to the hAudio proposal and was supported by [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-October/000972.html Manu Sporny], [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-October/000973.html Julian Stanhke], and [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-October/000974.html Martin McEvoy] with no opposition.

= Problem: hAlbum is redundant =

Most of hAlbum's properties overlap with hAudio. In fact, the only two properties that do not overlap with hAudio are 'album-title' and 'track'.

== Possible Solutions ==

hAudio ISSUE #8: {{OpenIssue}}

It has been proposed that we merge these two properties into hAudio to provide a cleaner, more unified way of describing audio songs and albums. Examples of how this would work are below:

You can specify an hAudio album instead of an hAudio song by specifying the 'album-title' property and not including the 'audio-title' property:

<pre>
<div class="haudio">
<span class="album-title">Underdog World Strike</span> by
<div class="collaborator">
<div class="vcard">
<span class="org fn">Gogol Bordello</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</pre>

You can specify an audio song that belongs to an audio album by specifying both 'album-title' and 'audio-title':

<pre>
<div class="haudio">
<span class="audio-title">Start Wearing Purple</span>
is a song off of the album
<span class="album-title">Underdog World Strike</span> by
<div class="collaborator">
<div class="vcard">
<span class="org fn">Gogol Bordello</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</pre>

You can specify each track in an album by including one or more 'track' properties and specifying the 'album-title':

<pre>
<div class="haudio">
<img class="photo" src="images/live_phish_vol_15.jpg"/>
<span class="album-title">Live Phish, Volume 15</span>
<span class="contributor">
<span class="vcard">
<span class="fn org">Phish</span>
</span>
</span>
<br/>
Released on:
<abbr class="published" title="20023110">October 31, 2002<abbr>
<br/>
Acquire:
<a rel="sample" href="/samples/live_phish_vol_15_sample.mp3">Sample</a>,
<a rel="enclosure" href="/live/phish_live_phish_vol_15.mp3">Live Recording</a>,
<a rel="payment" href="/buy/phish_live_phish_vol_15">Buy High Quality Track</a>
Category: <span class="category">live</span>
Duration: <abbr class="duration" title="P8727S">145 minutes, 27 seconds</abbr>
Price: <span class="money">
<abbr class="currency" title="USD">$</abbr>
<span class="amount">14.99</span>
</span>
Tracks:
<span class="track">1.
<span class="haudio>
<span class="audio-title">Sanity</span>
(<abbr class="duration" title="P348S">5:48</abbr>)
</span>
</span>
</span>
<span class="track">2.
<span class="haudio>
<span class="audio-title">Highway To Hell</span>
(<abbr class="duration" title="P219S">3:39</abbr>)
</span>
</span>
</span>
</div>
</pre>

Parsing rules would have to be changed slightly:

* If only 'album-title' is specified, then the hAudio is an album.
* If only 'audio-title' is specified, then the hAudio is a song/speech or other singular work.
* If both 'album-title' and 'audio-title' is specified, then the hAudio is a song that is part of an album.
* If 'album-title' and one or more 'track's are specified, the hAudio is an album containing tracks. Each track is a hAudio. None of the track properties should implicitly be added to the hAudio. In other words, the parser shouldn't parse the contents of the 'track' hAudio into the non-track hAudio object.

This also allows us to easily extend hAudio into the realm of podcasts, toplists, and other types of audio collections by adding a "*-title" property. For example, we could extend hAudio to support podcasts and podcast sections by adding a single property to hAudio: 'podcast-title'. 'track' would be used for each podcast section, in that use case.

==Votes==

* +1 for merging 'album-title' and 'track' into hAudio from hAlbum. [[User:ManuSporny|ManuSporny]] 12:57, 8 Sep 2007 (PDT)
* +1 also for merging album-title and track into hAudio [[User:WebOrganics|Martin McEvoy]] 21:48, 8 Sep 2007 (GMT+1)
* +1 also for merging album-title and track into hAudio [[User:ChrisNewell|Chris Newell]] 12:11, 25 Sep 2007 (GMT+1)

=Historical: Graphic buttons in rel-patterns=
==Affected Parties==

Any site that uses images for links. 'rel-sample', 'rel-enclosure', and 'rel-payment' and wants an additional property to display something besides a URL are affected. Most of the [[audio-info-examples|examples]] also contain images instead of text for samples, downloads and purchase links. This is a demonstrable, widespread problem.

This problem has been split into two parts, per Brian Suda's request. The problems are listed above and refer to this problem statement, namely:

[[audio-info-issues#Problem:_Display_properties_of_rel-patterns|Display properties of rel-patterns]] and [[audio-info-issues#Problem:_Peeking_into_child_elements_to_display_rel-patterns|Peeking into child elements]]

====History====

# ALT was proposed on the mailing list: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000593.html
# The point was raised that ALT tags are not used properly on the web: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000598.html
# Research was started on ALT tag usage on the web: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000614.html and http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000596.html
# Analysis on ALT tag usage on the web was reported: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000624.html and http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000627.html
# A very long argument started on the use/mis-use of ALT: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000603.html
# More research was performed and presented to the list asserting that ALT is not being mis-used on the web: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000629.html
# It was asserted that the research completed was not acceptable: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000635.html
# Things got nasty: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000637.html
# Posting stopped due to an End of Thread request: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-July/000644.html
# The issue and discussion was documented on the wiki.

== Related Pages ==
{{haudio-related-pages}}

hcard-advocacy

2007-10-08T08:31:38Z

JulianStahnke: response by anobii

<h1>hCard advocacy</h1>
{{TOC-right}}
Adding [[hcard|hCard]] to these sites would make them quite handy for their users and for being indexed:

== Online Profiles ==
=== User Profiles ===
Nearly every website that has a login has a page representing the public profile of the user that other users can see and interact with. Many such sites already [[hcard-implementations|support hCard]] (e.g. ClaimID.com, Flickr.com, Technorati.com). Here are some that I think would benefit from the addition of hCard to their profile / user pages, making them [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]]. In addition, if such profiles have friends lists, we should encourage them to add support for [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists]]. Both of these help [[social-network-portability]] and help the site become a node on the [[open-social-web]].

Feel free to add more such sites that have a social network profile-like component and we'll see what we can do. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
* Wikimedia - including this site, Wikipedia (See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats WikiProject Microformats]), Wikitravel, etc.
**It would be nice if <nowiki>[[User:YOURNAME]]</nowiki> links generated proper (mini)hCards. ([http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=12177&oldid=12173#Lazyweb per SteveIvy]; moved from 'to-do')
* Alexa.com has online profiles for domains with contact information. Would be great if they could add hCard to those. 2007-04-18 [[User:Tantek]] requested of [[User:BenWest]] e.g.:
** http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=alexa.com/
** http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=w3.org/
* [http://dodgeball.com/ Dodgeball] profiles and venues need [[hcard|hCard]] for people and organizations
** [http://www.dodgeball.com/user?uid=30209 a profile]
** [http://www.dodgeball.com/venue?vid=23551 a venue] - could also use [[hreview|hReview]] for the user reviews listed there for the venue
* [http://idubyou.com/ i dub you]
* [http://www.icq.com/people ICQ, where they show people's profiles and have a few ways of contacting and/or connection to people.]
* http://youtube.com The very popular YouTube have profiles that do include some information that might use [[hcard|hCard]].
* [http://www.facebook.com Facebook] is a very popular (over 13 million members) community.
**Requested support of microformats in openly asked question to Mark Zuckerberg during Q&A at TechCrunch40 conference, founder, and got [http://therealmccrea.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/facebook-to-support-open-standards/ lukewarm reply]. Glimmer of hope: "When it's important to our users, we'll do it." Thus if you are a Facebook user, please make a request to them to support microformats and tell them it is important to you. Feel free to add your name below. 2007-09-17 [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
**Requested in message to developer, 2007-09-28 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
* [http://pownce.com Pownce] - I'm talking with them, and have requested the following (and a bit more) as of 2007-07-29 - [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
** needs to add class="photo" to image icon
*** 2007-09-02 success!
** needs to add class="note" to description
*** 2007-09-02 success!
** needs to add hCard+XFN to friends lists.
*** 2007-09-02 partial success, friends lists have hCard, have asked Daniel Burka to add rel="acquaintance" per [[xfn-clarifications#are_you_my_friend_yes_or_no|XFN clarifications for yes/no friend relationships]]. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 10:41, 3 Sep 2007 (PDT)
** 2007-09-02 note also XFN rel="me" success: http://pownce.com/t/notes/644806/
* [http://anobii.com Anobii] - I asked them if they could implement hCard-supporting profiles and XFN on 2007-10-05 - [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]]
** Response: We will definitely spend some time to consider the suggestion.

=== Company Profiles ===
* [http://getsatisfaction.com/ Satisfaction Unlimited], has company profiles, e.g. http://getsatisfaction.com/satisfaction/ that could be marked up with hCards.
** Contacted Ted Grubb at the company and requested hCards for company and its employees for all their company profiles. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 11:24, 2 Sep 2007 (PDT)

== Online Venues ==
There are many sites that offer pages that represent organizations and venues that could benefit from being marked up with hCard. [http://local.yahoo.com/ Yahoo Local] venues are marked up with hCards for example. Here are some more sites that have venues that would benefit from hCard markup.
* Yelp.com
* http://opentable.com - a site for making restaurant reservations
** [[hcard|hCard]] for restaurants
** [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] for free busy times at restaurants
** [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] for your reservations
** Tantek has emailed a friend who is a former employee of OpenTable with the above three requests, in the hopes she can pass on the message. In addition, Ryan King may know someone in marketing there. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:57, 30 Sep 2007 (PDT)

== Plugins for and modifications of web-applications ==
Many web-applications use plugin-systems to change their behavior and content. Most notable is probably web-forums and blogs. Many of these have a community of coders that develop plugins or code to modify the default behavior of these web-applications. Here are some sites where it might be interesting to develop hcard-related plugins/mods.

* forum-software
** http://www.phpbb.com
* blog-software
** http://b2evolution.net

==Telephone Directory Listings==
Telephone Directory Listings could usefully apply hCard to their results pages. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 03:10, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)

e.g. (please add other examples!):
*[http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/ BT]
**Requested via [http://tinyurl.com/yhtdjy BT feedback form], 2006-11-13 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**BT confirm that they will consider this at their next re-build. 2006-12 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://118118.com 118118.com]
**Requested via e-mail, 2006-11-13. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://192.com/ 192.com]
**Requested via [http://www.192.com/support/feedback.cfm 192.com feedback form], 2007-03-07 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://www.skype.com/intl/en-gb/download/features/skypefind/ SkypeFind]
**Requested via [http://support.skype.com/?_a=tickets&_m=submit Skype feedback form], 2007-03-16 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://www.whitepages.com/ White Pages (USA/ Canada)]
*[http://www.whitepages.com.au/ White Pages (Australia)]
*[http://www.switchboard.com/ Stitchboard (USA)]]
*[http://people.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! People Search (USA)]
*[http://www.whowhere.com/ Lycos People Search (USA)]
*[http://www.bsnl.co.in/map.htm BSNL (India)]

==Postal (ZIP) code Finders==
Postal code Finders could usefully apply hCard to their results pages. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 12:09, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)

e.g. (please add other examples!):
*[http://pol.royalmail.com/dda/txt/pf.asp Royal Mail] (UK)
**Requested via [http://tinyurl.com/ya4hzu Royal Mail feedback form], 2006-11-13 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**Acknowledged 2006-11-30. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

==Government hCard==
===UK Gov. hCard===
* Parliament: [http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm Alphabetical List of Members of Parliament] (see also [http://www.parliament.uk/directories/directories.cfm other lists of MPs and Lords]). [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

===Europe Gov. hCard===
* e.g. [http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/westmidlands.asp UK MEPs]

=== MAPLight ===
http://maplight.org/ can use a bunch of hCard markup, e.g.
* individual politicians, like [http://www.maplight.org/map/us/legislator/408/individuals Nancy Pelosi]
* mentions of politicians on interest pages like [http://www.maplight.org/map/us/interest/L1300 Teachers unions]
* their contact info of course: http://www.maplight.org/contact
Requested by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:13, 30 May 2007 (PDT) in person at the NetSquared2007 conference.

== Organization Contacts ==
Many companies and organizations have about or contact pages that could benefit from being marked up with hCard. [http://technorati.com/about/contact.html Technorati's contact page] for example is both marked up with hCard and has a convenient "Add to Address Book" hCard to vCard converter link. The following company sites could benefit from similar markup (and, until user agents support hCards natively, "Add to Address Book" links). [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
*Adobe
**[http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/offices.html Adobe offices]
***Requested using contact form, 2006-12-14. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*Google
**Contacts, e.g.
*** [http://www.google.com/intl/en/contact/index.html Google.com contact page]
**** Requested by asking Google Employee KevinMarks via instant messaging to add hCard to that page along with a "Add to Address Book" link [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 11:32, 10 Apr 2007 (PDT) and RyanKing in IRC
*** [http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en/contact/index.html Google UK], etc.
*[http://ibm.com/ IBM]
**[http://www.ibm.com/contact/us/ IBM contact page]
*** Requested by asking IBM employee Michael Kaply via IRC 2007-07-31 08:57am PDT: "how about getting hCard and 'Add to address book' links on the IBM contact page?"
*[http://www.mozilla.com/ Mozilla]
**[http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/about/legal.html Mozilla legal notices]
*Opera
**People, e.g. [http://people.opera.com/howcome/ Håkon Wium Lie]; could also be hResume
*W3C
**[http://www.w3.org/Consortium/contact W3C contact]
**[http://www.w3.org/People/all W3C Staff listing] and individual pages, e.g. [http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/ Tim Berners-Lee]
***Requested by e-mail. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

== Individual hCards ==
Getting these sites to at least add hCard to their home page or contact info page and then [http://pingerati.net/ping/ ping Pingerati] would be an excellent start with getting them some experience with microformats and thinking about adding microformats to other places in their sites that make sense:
* [http://metaweb.com/ Metaweb Technologies]
** [http://www.freebase.com/ Freebase ]

==Trade directories==
* [http://www.booktrust.org.uk/info/search_publishers.php BookTrust (UK book publishers)]
* [http://www.gepir.org/ Global Electronic Party Information Register] (GEPIR) over 1 million companies
** Requested 2007-08-31 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

==Other hCard==
* [http://www.imdb.com/ Internet Movie Database] (IMDb) for people (real, not characters), e.g. [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000007/ Humphrey Bogart]. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 02:49, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)
**Can't find contact info! [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**See also example, below.
*Wikitravel
**e.g. [http://wikitravel.org/en/Birmingham_%28England%29 Wikitravel - Birmingham]
***[http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:MarkJaroski&curid=2699&diff=0&oldid=10663&rcid=19955 Wikitravel is about to hugely roll out hCard] Mark Jaroski
***See also [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Microformats Wikitravel:Microformats]
*[http://orlabs.oclc.org/Identities/ WorldCat Identities]
**The recently prototyped WorldCat Identities provides pages for 20 million 'identities', mainly authors and people who are the subjects of published titles.
**Requested by feedback form, 2007-03-09 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
** No reply, as of 02:02, 13 Jun 2007 (PDT)
*[http://geonames.org GeoNames]
**Requested by e-mail, 2007-06-07 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**Reply confirms that they will deploy hCard and Geo
**Geo noted in use, 06:08, 30 Jul 2007 (PDT)
*[http://www.oup.com/oxforddnb/info/ Oxford Dictionary of National Biography] (ODNB); subscription based, but [http://www.oxforddnb.com/public/lotw/ some ODNB articles available free]. All 56,000+ entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.findagrave.com/ Find-a-Grave] e.g. [http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=680 Karl Marx]. Most entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.biography.com/ Biography.com] e.g. [http://www.biography.com/impressionists/monet-bio.jsp Camille Monet] Most posthumous entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.cwgc.org/ Commonwealth War Graves Commission] (1.75 million people's details)
**E-mail sent 2007-08-24. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

== Successes ==

*Details of hCard should be added to the [http://www.imc.org/pdi/ Internet Mail Consortium's vCard page]
**Requested by e-mail, 2006-11-24 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**'''Success''' achieved 2006-11-25. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*W3C
**'''W3C webmaster''' [http://www.w3.org/People/Jean-Gui/ Jean-Guilhem Rouel] now has an hCard. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 15:41, 4 Apr 2007 (PDT)
* [http://jpgmag.com/ JPG magazine] - have sent email to their web developer with sample marked up member profile with [[hcard|hCard]] and [[xfn]] [[rel-me|rel="me"]]. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:48, 21 Feb 2007 (PST)
** [[hcard|hCard]]+[[xfn]] [[rel-me|rel="me"]] support as of March 2007.
* Twitter.com - working on it [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST).
** Completed [[hcard|hCard]]+[[xfn]]+[[hatom|hAtom]] support last week with help from Chris Messina. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:01, 16 May 2007 (PDT)
* Consumating.com - working on it [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
** [[hcard|hCard]] profiles, [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] events as of March 2007.
* [http://sunlightlabs.com/api/ SunlightLabs API] provides profiles for US Congresspeople. Their [http://sunlightlabs.com/api/masterref/megatable.php megatable] could easily be marked up with hCard, and their APIs could return hCards and hCard fields.
** [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:30, 20 Apr 2007 (PDT) contacted them and requested that they add hCard to megatable, consider a GethCard API method, and potentially a GethResume API method for each person.
** [[User:CarlAnderson|CarlAnderson]] 26 Apr 2007: http://sunlightlabs.com/api does now have a people.getHCard.php API method to get an hCard for every member of congress. See the documentation at http://sunlightlabs.com/api/people.getHCard.php. An example call: http://api.sunlightlabs.com/people.getHCard.php?id=fakeopenID1
** [[User:CarlAnderson|CarlAnderson]] 30 Apr 2007: I created a page of hCards for every member of congress: http://sunlightlabs.com/api/hcards/index.php

===Wikpedia hCard===
*Infobox Templates for people mostly now have [[hcard|hCard]] in their generated markup
** [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Person Infobox_Person]; e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson E. O. Wilson]
** [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_actor Infobox_actor]; e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Bogart Humphrey Bogart]
*Addressable buildings e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Crown%2C_Birmingham The Old Crown, Birmingham]
*Tourist attractions, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadbury_World%2C_Birmingham Cadbury World]
*Companies, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco Tesco] (note headquarters address in infobox)
*Railway Stations, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Barr_railway_station Perry Barr]
*etc.
*See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats WikiProject Microformats] [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 13:10, 28 Jan 2007 (PST)
* See also [[persondata|discussion of Wikipedia's Persondata]], which aligns very closely with hCard, but has additional date and place of birth & death fields. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 13:23, 28 Mar 2007 (PDT)

Some microformat data is now (2007-09-14) being removed from Wikipedia; see, for example [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Gaudi_Buildings&diff=prev&oldid=157704557 List_of_Gaudi_Buildings]

==See also==
*[[advocacy]] (in particular see [[advocacy#Geo|Geo advocacy]] - for the Geo microformat, including cases where it may be used inside hCard)
*[[advocacy-email-samples]]
{{hcard-related-pages}}

hcard-advocacy

2007-10-05T14:13:31Z

JulianStahnke: /* Online Profiles */

<h1>hCard advocacy</h1>
{{TOC-right}}
Adding [[hcard|hCard]] to these sites would make them quite handy for their users and for being indexed:

== Online Profiles ==
=== User Profiles ===
Nearly every website that has a login has a page representing the public profile of the user that other users can see and interact with. Many such sites already [[hcard-implementations|support hCard]] (e.g. ClaimID.com, Flickr.com, Technorati.com). Here are some that I think would benefit from the addition of hCard to their profile / user pages, making them [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]]. In addition, if such profiles have friends lists, we should encourage them to add support for [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists]]. Both of these help [[social-network-portability]] and help the site become a node on the [[open-social-web]].

Feel free to add more such sites that have a social network profile-like component and we'll see what we can do. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
* Wikimedia - including this site, Wikipedia (See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats WikiProject Microformats]), Wikitravel, etc.
**It would be nice if <nowiki>[[User:YOURNAME]]</nowiki> links generated proper (mini)hCards. ([http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=12177&oldid=12173#Lazyweb per SteveIvy]; moved from 'to-do')
* Alexa.com has online profiles for domains with contact information. Would be great if they could add hCard to those. 2007-04-18 [[User:Tantek]] requested of [[User:BenWest]] e.g.:
** http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=alexa.com/
** http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=w3.org/
* [http://dodgeball.com/ Dodgeball] profiles and venues need [[hcard|hCard]] for people and organizations
** [http://www.dodgeball.com/user?uid=30209 a profile]
** [http://www.dodgeball.com/venue?vid=23551 a venue] - could also use [[hreview|hReview]] for the user reviews listed there for the venue
* [http://idubyou.com/ i dub you]
* [http://www.icq.com/people ICQ, where they show people's profiles and have a few ways of contacting and/or connection to people.]
* http://youtube.com The very popular YouTube have profiles that do include some information that might use [[hcard|hCard]].
* [http://www.facebook.com Facebook] is a very popular (over 13 million members) community.
**Requested support of microformats in openly asked question to Mark Zuckerberg during Q&A at TechCrunch40 conference, founder, and got [http://therealmccrea.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/facebook-to-support-open-standards/ lukewarm reply]. Glimmer of hope: "When it's important to our users, we'll do it." Thus if you are a Facebook user, please make a request to them to support microformats and tell them it is important to you. Feel free to add your name below. 2007-09-17 [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
**Requested in message to developer, 2007-09-28 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
* [http://pownce.com Pownce] - I'm talking with them, and have requested the following (and a bit more) as of 2007-07-29 - [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
** needs to add class="photo" to image icon
*** 2007-09-02 success!
** needs to add class="note" to description
*** 2007-09-02 success!
** needs to add hCard+XFN to friends lists.
*** 2007-09-02 partial success, friends lists have hCard, have asked Daniel Burka to add rel="acquaintance" per [[xfn-clarifications#are_you_my_friend_yes_or_no|XFN clarifications for yes/no friend relationships]]. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 10:41, 3 Sep 2007 (PDT)
** 2007-09-02 note also XFN rel="me" success: http://pownce.com/t/notes/644806/
* [http://anobii.com Anobii] - I asked them if they could implement hCard-supporting profiles and XFN on 2007-10-05 - [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]]

=== Company Profiles ===
* [http://getsatisfaction.com/ Satisfaction Unlimited], has company profiles, e.g. http://getsatisfaction.com/satisfaction/ that could be marked up with hCards.
** Contacted Ted Grubb at the company and requested hCards for company and its employees for all their company profiles. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 11:24, 2 Sep 2007 (PDT)

== Online Venues ==
There are many sites that offer pages that represent organizations and venues that could benefit from being marked up with hCard. [http://local.yahoo.com/ Yahoo Local] venues are marked up with hCards for example. Here are some more sites that have venues that would benefit from hCard markup.
* Yelp.com
* http://opentable.com - a site for making restaurant reservations
** [[hcard|hCard]] for restaurants
** [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] for free busy times at restaurants
** [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] for your reservations
** Tantek has emailed a friend who is a former employee of OpenTable with the above three requests, in the hopes she can pass on the message. In addition, Ryan King may know someone in marketing there. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:57, 30 Sep 2007 (PDT)

== Plugins for and modifications of web-applications ==
Many web-applications use plugin-systems to change their behavior and content. Most notable is probably web-forums and blogs. Many of these have a community of coders that develop plugins or code to modify the default behavior of these web-applications. Here are some sites where it might be interesting to develop hcard-related plugins/mods.

* forum-software
** http://www.phpbb.com
* blog-software
** http://b2evolution.net

==Telephone Directory Listings==
Telephone Directory Listings could usefully apply hCard to their results pages. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 03:10, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)

e.g. (please add other examples!):
*[http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/ BT]
**Requested via [http://tinyurl.com/yhtdjy BT feedback form], 2006-11-13 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**BT confirm that they will consider this at their next re-build. 2006-12 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://118118.com 118118.com]
**Requested via e-mail, 2006-11-13. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://192.com/ 192.com]
**Requested via [http://www.192.com/support/feedback.cfm 192.com feedback form], 2007-03-07 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://www.skype.com/intl/en-gb/download/features/skypefind/ SkypeFind]
**Requested via [http://support.skype.com/?_a=tickets&_m=submit Skype feedback form], 2007-03-16 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*[http://www.whitepages.com/ White Pages (USA/ Canada)]
*[http://www.whitepages.com.au/ White Pages (Australia)]
*[http://www.switchboard.com/ Stitchboard (USA)]]
*[http://people.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! People Search (USA)]
*[http://www.whowhere.com/ Lycos People Search (USA)]
*[http://www.bsnl.co.in/map.htm BSNL (India)]

==Postal (ZIP) code Finders==
Postal code Finders could usefully apply hCard to their results pages. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 12:09, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)

e.g. (please add other examples!):
*[http://pol.royalmail.com/dda/txt/pf.asp Royal Mail] (UK)
**Requested via [http://tinyurl.com/ya4hzu Royal Mail feedback form], 2006-11-13 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**Acknowledged 2006-11-30. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

==Government hCard==
===UK Gov. hCard===
* Parliament: [http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm Alphabetical List of Members of Parliament] (see also [http://www.parliament.uk/directories/directories.cfm other lists of MPs and Lords]). [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

===Europe Gov. hCard===
* e.g. [http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/westmidlands.asp UK MEPs]

=== MAPLight ===
http://maplight.org/ can use a bunch of hCard markup, e.g.
* individual politicians, like [http://www.maplight.org/map/us/legislator/408/individuals Nancy Pelosi]
* mentions of politicians on interest pages like [http://www.maplight.org/map/us/interest/L1300 Teachers unions]
* their contact info of course: http://www.maplight.org/contact
Requested by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:13, 30 May 2007 (PDT) in person at the NetSquared2007 conference.

== Organization Contacts ==
Many companies and organizations have about or contact pages that could benefit from being marked up with hCard. [http://technorati.com/about/contact.html Technorati's contact page] for example is both marked up with hCard and has a convenient "Add to Address Book" hCard to vCard converter link. The following company sites could benefit from similar markup (and, until user agents support hCards natively, "Add to Address Book" links). [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
*Adobe
**[http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/offices.html Adobe offices]
***Requested using contact form, 2006-12-14. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*Google
**Contacts, e.g.
*** [http://www.google.com/intl/en/contact/index.html Google.com contact page]
**** Requested by asking Google Employee KevinMarks via instant messaging to add hCard to that page along with a "Add to Address Book" link [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 11:32, 10 Apr 2007 (PDT) and RyanKing in IRC
*** [http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en/contact/index.html Google UK], etc.
*[http://ibm.com/ IBM]
**[http://www.ibm.com/contact/us/ IBM contact page]
*** Requested by asking IBM employee Michael Kaply via IRC 2007-07-31 08:57am PDT: "how about getting hCard and 'Add to address book' links on the IBM contact page?"
*[http://www.mozilla.com/ Mozilla]
**[http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/about/legal.html Mozilla legal notices]
*Opera
**People, e.g. [http://people.opera.com/howcome/ Håkon Wium Lie]; could also be hResume
*W3C
**[http://www.w3.org/Consortium/contact W3C contact]
**[http://www.w3.org/People/all W3C Staff listing] and individual pages, e.g. [http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/ Tim Berners-Lee]
***Requested by e-mail. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

== Individual hCards ==
Getting these sites to at least add hCard to their home page or contact info page and then [http://pingerati.net/ping/ ping Pingerati] would be an excellent start with getting them some experience with microformats and thinking about adding microformats to other places in their sites that make sense:
* [http://metaweb.com/ Metaweb Technologies]
** [http://www.freebase.com/ Freebase ]

==Trade directories==
* [http://www.booktrust.org.uk/info/search_publishers.php BookTrust (UK book publishers)]
* [http://www.gepir.org/ Global Electronic Party Information Register] (GEPIR) over 1 million companies
** Requested 2007-08-31 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

==Other hCard==
* [http://www.imdb.com/ Internet Movie Database] (IMDb) for people (real, not characters), e.g. [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000007/ Humphrey Bogart]. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 02:49, 13 Nov 2006 (PST)
**Can't find contact info! [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**See also example, below.
*Wikitravel
**e.g. [http://wikitravel.org/en/Birmingham_%28England%29 Wikitravel - Birmingham]
***[http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:MarkJaroski&curid=2699&diff=0&oldid=10663&rcid=19955 Wikitravel is about to hugely roll out hCard] Mark Jaroski
***See also [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Microformats Wikitravel:Microformats]
*[http://orlabs.oclc.org/Identities/ WorldCat Identities]
**The recently prototyped WorldCat Identities provides pages for 20 million 'identities', mainly authors and people who are the subjects of published titles.
**Requested by feedback form, 2007-03-09 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
** No reply, as of 02:02, 13 Jun 2007 (PDT)
*[http://geonames.org GeoNames]
**Requested by e-mail, 2007-06-07 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**Reply confirms that they will deploy hCard and Geo
**Geo noted in use, 06:08, 30 Jul 2007 (PDT)
*[http://www.oup.com/oxforddnb/info/ Oxford Dictionary of National Biography] (ODNB); subscription based, but [http://www.oxforddnb.com/public/lotw/ some ODNB articles available free]. All 56,000+ entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.findagrave.com/ Find-a-Grave] e.g. [http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=680 Karl Marx]. Most entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.biography.com/ Biography.com] e.g. [http://www.biography.com/impressionists/monet-bio.jsp Camille Monet] Most posthumous entries have Date of Death.
*[http://www.cwgc.org/ Commonwealth War Graves Commission] (1.75 million people's details)
**E-mail sent 2007-08-24. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]

== Successes ==

*Details of hCard should be added to the [http://www.imc.org/pdi/ Internet Mail Consortium's vCard page]
**Requested by e-mail, 2006-11-24 [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**'''Success''' achieved 2006-11-25. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
*W3C
**'''W3C webmaster''' [http://www.w3.org/People/Jean-Gui/ Jean-Guilhem Rouel] now has an hCard. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 15:41, 4 Apr 2007 (PDT)
* [http://jpgmag.com/ JPG magazine] - have sent email to their web developer with sample marked up member profile with [[hcard|hCard]] and [[xfn]] [[rel-me|rel="me"]]. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:48, 21 Feb 2007 (PST)
** [[hcard|hCard]]+[[xfn]] [[rel-me|rel="me"]] support as of March 2007.
* Twitter.com - working on it [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST).
** Completed [[hcard|hCard]]+[[xfn]]+[[hatom|hAtom]] support last week with help from Chris Messina. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:01, 16 May 2007 (PDT)
* Consumating.com - working on it [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 17:44, 13 Dec 2006 (PST)
** [[hcard|hCard]] profiles, [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] events as of March 2007.
* [http://sunlightlabs.com/api/ SunlightLabs API] provides profiles for US Congresspeople. Their [http://sunlightlabs.com/api/masterref/megatable.php megatable] could easily be marked up with hCard, and their APIs could return hCards and hCard fields.
** [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 12:30, 20 Apr 2007 (PDT) contacted them and requested that they add hCard to megatable, consider a GethCard API method, and potentially a GethResume API method for each person.
** [[User:CarlAnderson|CarlAnderson]] 26 Apr 2007: http://sunlightlabs.com/api does now have a people.getHCard.php API method to get an hCard for every member of congress. See the documentation at http://sunlightlabs.com/api/people.getHCard.php. An example call: http://api.sunlightlabs.com/people.getHCard.php?id=fakeopenID1
** [[User:CarlAnderson|CarlAnderson]] 30 Apr 2007: I created a page of hCards for every member of congress: http://sunlightlabs.com/api/hcards/index.php

===Wikpedia hCard===
*Infobox Templates for people mostly now have [[hcard|hCard]] in their generated markup
** [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Person Infobox_Person]; e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson E. O. Wilson]
** [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_actor Infobox_actor]; e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Bogart Humphrey Bogart]
*Addressable buildings e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Crown%2C_Birmingham The Old Crown, Birmingham]
*Tourist attractions, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadbury_World%2C_Birmingham Cadbury World]
*Companies, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco Tesco] (note headquarters address in infobox)
*Railway Stations, e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Barr_railway_station Perry Barr]
*etc.
*See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Microformats WikiProject Microformats] [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 13:10, 28 Jan 2007 (PST)
* See also [[persondata|discussion of Wikipedia's Persondata]], which aligns very closely with hCard, but has additional date and place of birth & death fields. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 13:23, 28 Mar 2007 (PDT)

Some microformat data is now (2007-09-14) being removed from Wikipedia; see, for example [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Gaudi_Buildings&diff=prev&oldid=157704557 List_of_Gaudi_Buildings]

==See also==
*[[advocacy]] (in particular see [[advocacy#Geo|Geo advocacy]] - for the Geo microformat, including cases where it may be used inside hCard)
*[[advocacy-email-samples]]
{{hcard-related-pages}}

hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists

2007-07-31T01:05:18Z

JulianStahnke: /* Services with XFN rel="me" supporting identity consolidation */

<h1>hCard+XFN supporting friends lists</h1>
Welcome! If you have an account on any of the following services, you already have a list of your friends' hCards with your relationship to them in XFN which you can provide to other services to save time by either importing or subscribing to social network information so you can change it on one site, and have other sites automatically updated, rather than having to re-add/remove all your social network contacts multiple times everytime you meet a new person, decide to unfriend someone etc.

== Services with hCard+XFN supporting friends lists ==
The following web sites support hCard+XFN on their friends lists and are thus suitable for importing/subscribing to other sites that support hCard+XFN. Alphabetically sorted. Feel free to add sites with hCard+XFN supporting friends lists here. Please include a link to the site home page, and instructions for retrieving your the URL of your hCard+XFN supporting friends list on that site.

* [http://www.corkd.com/ Cork'd] - login and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://www.corkd.com/people/</nowiki>
* [http://dopplr.com Dopplr] - login and note that your user page has hCard and XFN for your contacts (site is private beta)
* [http://www.last.fm/ Last FM] - login, click the "Friends" tab, and copy the URL which should look like: <nowiki>http://www.last.fm/user/YOURUSERNAME/friends/</nowiki> where YOURUSERNAME is your username.
* [http://twitter.com/ Twitter] - login, click on "Your profile" at the top, and copy the URL

== Services that import hCard+XFN supporting friends lists ==
The following web sites support importing your existing hCard+XFN supporting friends lists, e.g. from the above sites. Alphabetically sorted. Feel free to add sites supporting hCard+XFN import here. Please include a link to the site home page, and instructions for how to import friends on the site.

* [http://dopplr.com Dopplr] - as [http://blog.dopplr.com/index.php/2007/06/23/importing-your-social-network-from-other-sites/ announced] login and go to <nowiki>http://www.dopplr.com/account/fellows_from_hcard</nowiki> to import (site is private beta)

== Services with XFN supporting friends lists ==
* [http://wordpress.com Wordpress.com] and any other blogs using Wordpress 1.5 or later have XFN supporting blog rolls.

== Services with XFN rel="me" supporting identity consolidation ==
* [http://flickr.com/ Flickr] - login, click "Your Photos", click "Profile", and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://flickr.com/people/</nowiki>
** Flickr supports rel="me" identity consolidation with your webpage that you enter into your profile, and with your Flickr contacts page.
* [http://www.last.fm/ Last.FM] - login, go to your profile, and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://www.last.fm/user/</nowiki>
** Last.FM supports rel="me" identity consolidation with your webpage that you enter into your profile, and with your Last.FM friends page.

== For more information ==
Want to implement hCard+XFN on your site so you can list it here?

See the [[hcard-authoring|hCard authoring]] page for how to mark-up information about a person with hCard.

See the [http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/join XFN: Getting Started] page for how to markup links to people with XFN.

Join the [http://microformats.org/discuss microformats community], in particular the [http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/ microformats-dev mailing list], and send a message stating that you'd like to add hCard to the profiles on your website.

Please also consider implementing [[hcard-supporting-profiles|hCard profiles]].

For more information see:
* [[hcard|hCard standard]] / [[hcard-faq|FAQ]].
* [http://gmpg.org/xfn/ XFN standard] / [http://gmpg.org/xfn/faq XFN FAQ] / More [[xfn|info on XFN]].
* [[social-network-portability]].

hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists

2007-07-31T00:58:10Z

JulianStahnke: Last.FM support rel="me" with the webpage you enter into your profile

<h1>hCard+XFN supporting friends lists</h1>
Welcome! If you have an account on any of the following services, you already have a list of your friends' hCards with your relationship to them in XFN which you can provide to other services to save time by either importing or subscribing to social network information so you can change it on one site, and have other sites automatically updated, rather than having to re-add/remove all your social network contacts multiple times everytime you meet a new person, decide to unfriend someone etc.

== Services with hCard+XFN supporting friends lists ==
The following web sites support hCard+XFN on their friends lists and are thus suitable for importing/subscribing to other sites that support hCard+XFN. Alphabetically sorted. Feel free to add sites with hCard+XFN supporting friends lists here. Please include a link to the site home page, and instructions for retrieving your the URL of your hCard+XFN supporting friends list on that site.

* [http://www.corkd.com/ Cork'd] - login and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://www.corkd.com/people/</nowiki>
* [http://dopplr.com Dopplr] - login and note that your user page has hCard and XFN for your contacts (site is private beta)
* [http://www.last.fm/ Last FM] - login, click the "Friends" tab, and copy the URL which should look like: <nowiki>http://www.last.fm/user/YOURUSERNAME/friends/</nowiki> where YOURUSERNAME is your username.
* [http://twitter.com/ Twitter] - login, click on "Your profile" at the top, and copy the URL

== Services that import hCard+XFN supporting friends lists ==
The following web sites support importing your existing hCard+XFN supporting friends lists, e.g. from the above sites. Alphabetically sorted. Feel free to add sites supporting hCard+XFN import here. Please include a link to the site home page, and instructions for how to import friends on the site.

* [http://dopplr.com Dopplr] - as [http://blog.dopplr.com/index.php/2007/06/23/importing-your-social-network-from-other-sites/ announced] login and go to <nowiki>http://www.dopplr.com/account/fellows_from_hcard</nowiki> to import (site is private beta)

== Services with XFN supporting friends lists ==
* [http://wordpress.com Wordpress.com] and any other blogs using Wordpress 1.5 or later have XFN supporting blog rolls.

== Services with XFN rel="me" supporting identity consolidation ==
* [http://flickr.com/ Flickr] - login, click "Your Photos", click "Profile", and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://flickr.com/people/</nowiki>
** Flickr supports rel="me" identity consolidation with your webpage that you enter into your profile, and with your Flickr contacts page.
* [http://www.last.fm/ Last.FM] - login, go to your profile, and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://www.last.fm/user/</nowiki>
** Last.FM supports rel="me" identity consolidation with your webpage that you enter into your profile.

== For more information ==
Want to implement hCard+XFN on your site so you can list it here?

See the [[hcard-authoring|hCard authoring]] page for how to mark-up information about a person with hCard.

See the [http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/join XFN: Getting Started] page for how to markup links to people with XFN.

Join the [http://microformats.org/discuss microformats community], in particular the [http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/ microformats-dev mailing list], and send a message stating that you'd like to add hCard to the profiles on your website.

Please also consider implementing [[hcard-supporting-profiles|hCard profiles]].

For more information see:
* [[hcard|hCard standard]] / [[hcard-faq|FAQ]].
* [http://gmpg.org/xfn/ XFN standard] / [http://gmpg.org/xfn/faq XFN FAQ] / More [[xfn|info on XFN]].
* [[social-network-portability]].

hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists

2007-07-31T00:55:30Z

JulianStahnke: Last.fm marks up your friends as hcards now

<h1>hCard+XFN supporting friends lists</h1>
Welcome! If you have an account on any of the following services, you already have a list of your friends' hCards with your relationship to them in XFN which you can provide to other services to save time by either importing or subscribing to social network information so you can change it on one site, and have other sites automatically updated, rather than having to re-add/remove all your social network contacts multiple times everytime you meet a new person, decide to unfriend someone etc.

== Services with hCard+XFN supporting friends lists ==
The following web sites support hCard+XFN on their friends lists and are thus suitable for importing/subscribing to other sites that support hCard+XFN. Alphabetically sorted. Feel free to add sites with hCard+XFN supporting friends lists here. Please include a link to the site home page, and instructions for retrieving your the URL of your hCard+XFN supporting friends list on that site.

* [http://www.corkd.com/ Cork'd] - login and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://www.corkd.com/people/</nowiki>
* [http://dopplr.com Dopplr] - login and note that your user page has hCard and XFN for your contacts (site is private beta)
* [http://www.last.fm/ Last FM] - login, click the "Friends" tab, and copy the URL which should look like: <nowiki>http://www.last.fm/user/YOURUSERNAME/friends/</nowiki> where YOURUSERNAME is your username.
* [http://twitter.com/ Twitter] - login, click on "Your profile" at the top, and copy the URL

== Services that import hCard+XFN supporting friends lists ==
The following web sites support importing your existing hCard+XFN supporting friends lists, e.g. from the above sites. Alphabetically sorted. Feel free to add sites supporting hCard+XFN import here. Please include a link to the site home page, and instructions for how to import friends on the site.

* [http://dopplr.com Dopplr] - as [http://blog.dopplr.com/index.php/2007/06/23/importing-your-social-network-from-other-sites/ announced] login and go to <nowiki>http://www.dopplr.com/account/fellows_from_hcard</nowiki> to import (site is private beta)

== Services with XFN supporting friends lists ==
* [http://wordpress.com Wordpress.com] and any other blogs using Wordpress 1.5 or later have XFN supporting blog rolls.

== Services with XFN rel="me" supporting identity consolidation ==
* [http://flickr.com/ Flickr] - login, click "Your Photos", click "Profile", and copy the URL which should start with <nowiki>http://flickr.com/people/</nowiki>
** Flickr supports rel="me" identity consolidation with your webpage that you enter into your profile, and with your Flickr contacts page.

== For more information ==
Want to implement hCard+XFN on your site so you can list it here?

See the [[hcard-authoring|hCard authoring]] page for how to mark-up information about a person with hCard.

See the [http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/join XFN: Getting Started] page for how to markup links to people with XFN.

Join the [http://microformats.org/discuss microformats community], in particular the [http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-dev/ microformats-dev mailing list], and send a message stating that you'd like to add hCard to the profiles on your website.

Please also consider implementing [[hcard-supporting-profiles|hCard profiles]].

For more information see:
* [[hcard|hCard standard]] / [[hcard-faq|FAQ]].
* [http://gmpg.org/xfn/ XFN standard] / [http://gmpg.org/xfn/faq XFN FAQ] / More [[xfn|info on XFN]].
* [[social-network-portability]].

accessibility

2006-11-26T23:26:10Z

JulianStahnke: /* Accessibility of this wiki */

=Accessibility=

This page is for keeping track of issues relating to microformats and accessibility, in the hopes that any potential accessibility issues are resolved quickly, and for documenting techniques for making microformats more accessible.

==External discussions==
=== Mailing lists ===

* [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2006OctDec/0022.html Microformats and Semantic Structure (part 2)] - 2006-10-11 in w3c-wai-ig.
* [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2006JulSep/subject.html#msg133 hCard and hCalendar Formats] - 2006-08-03 in w3c-wai-ig.

===Fora===
*[http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6167&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Use of 'abbr' in microformats] - 2006-09-20. Issues: use of 'abbr'

==Accessibility of this wiki==
*Large blocks of italic text are inaccessible to many readers, including people with types of visual impairment, dyslexia, etc. [http://www.intranet.man.ac.uk/accessibility/Disabilities/dyslexia.html], [https://tritonlink.ucsd.edu/portal/site/tritonlink-preview/menuitem.b4448692267a11256ec5e210514b01ca?storyID=20896]. [http://accessites.org/], [http://tlt.psu.edu/suggestions/accessibility/font.html], [http://www.wd4a.co.uk/Guidelines.htm] [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 14:33, 26 Nov 2006 (PST)
*Using emboldening and italics to differentiate types on, e.g. the cheatsheet pages [[hcard-cheatsheet]], is unhelpful to users of assistive technologies, text-only devices, etc. A number, letter or symbol should additionally be be used. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 14:33, 26 Nov 2006 (PST)
**I think the emboldening is fine as it marks up the required properties. The italics are a bit of a problem but keep it simple at the moment. Additional characters can’t be used as they would break the class="property" template. Colours would be a way but are inaccessible to some users, so there is no real solution to that problem for now. [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 22:55, 26 Nov 2006 (GMT)
***"I think the emboldening is fine" - how would you understand emboldening in a text-only browser like Lynx, or in an aural browser? [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 15:17, 26 Nov 2006 (PST)
****Ups, I just assumed that it would use strong and em tags. Yeah, well, let’s think about it. [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 23:22, 26 Nov 2006 (GMT)
**Of course, one could add that stuff ''after'' the class="property" thing. That might look a little cluttered though. I’ll consider that for the next revision/next cheat sheet I do. [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 22:57, 26 Nov 2006 (GMT)
***All that's needed is:
::::<nowiki>* class="vcard" (1)</nowiki>
::instead of:
::::<nowiki>* class="vcard"</nowiki>
:::[[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 15:24, 26 Nov 2006 (PST)

accessibility

2006-11-26T22:58:06Z

JulianStahnke: /* Accessibility of this wiki */

=Accessibility=

This page is for keeping track of issues relating to microformats and accessibility, in the hopes that any potential accessibility issues are resolved quickly, and for documenting techniques for making microformats more accessible.

==External discussions==
=== Mailing lists ===

* [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2006OctDec/0022.html Microformats and Semantic Structure (part 2)] - 2006-10-11 in w3c-wai-ig.
* [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2006JulSep/subject.html#msg133 hCard and hCalendar Formats] - 2006-08-03 in w3c-wai-ig.

===Fora===
*[http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6167&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Use of 'abbr' in microformats] - 2006-09-20. Issues: use of 'abbr'

==Accessibility of this wiki==
*Large blocks of italic text are inaccessible to many readers, including people with types of visual impairment, dyslexia, etc. [http://www.intranet.man.ac.uk/accessibility/Disabilities/dyslexia.html], [https://tritonlink.ucsd.edu/portal/site/tritonlink-preview/menuitem.b4448692267a11256ec5e210514b01ca?storyID=20896]. [http://accessites.org/], [http://tlt.psu.edu/suggestions/accessibility/font.html], [http://www.wd4a.co.uk/Guidelines.htm] [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 14:33, 26 Nov 2006 (PST)
*Using emboldening and italics to differentiate types on, e.g. the cheatsheet pages [[hcard-cheatsheet]], is unhelpful to users of assistive technologies, text-only devices, etc. A number, letter or symbol should additionally be be used. [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 14:33, 26 Nov 2006 (PST)
**I think the emboldening is fine as it marks up the required properties. The italics are a bit of a problem but keep it simple at the moment. Additional characters can’t be used as they would break the class="property" template. Colours would be a way but are inaccessible to some users, so there is no real solution to that problem for now. [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 22:55, 26 Nov 2006 (GMT)
**Of course, one could add that stuff ''after'' the class="property" thing. That might look a little cluttered though. I’ll consider that for the next revision/next cheat sheet I do. [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] 22:57, 26 Nov 2006 (GMT)

accessibility

2006-11-26T22:55:52Z

JulianStahnke: /* Accessibility of this wiki */

hcard-cheatsheet

2006-11-26T22:11:25Z

JulianStahnke:

*class="'''vcard'''"
**class="''[[adr]]''"
***class="type" [work|home|pref|postal|dom|intl]
***class="post-office-box"
***class="''street-address''"
***class="extended-address"
***class="region"
***class="locality"
***class="postal-code"
***class="country-name"
**class="''agent''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#bday|bday]]" (ISO date)
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#class|class]]" – confidentiality/access classification of the ''entire'' hCard
**class="''category''"
**class="''email''"
***class="type"
***class="value"
**class="'''[[hcard-singular-properties#fn|fn]]'''"
**class="[[geo]]"
***class="latitude"
**class="longitude"
**class="''key''"
**class="''label''"
**class="''logo''"
**class="''mailer''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#n|n]]"
***class="''honorific-prefix''"
***class="given-name"
***class="''additional-name''"
***class="family-name"
***class="''honorific-suffix''"
**class="''nickname''"
**class="''note''"
**class="''org''"
***class="organization-name"
***class="''organization-unit''"
**class="''photo''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#rev|rev]]" – datetime of the revision of the ''entire'' hCard
**class="''role''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#sort-string|sort-string]]"
**class="''sound''"
**class="''title''"
**class="''tel''"
***class="type" [home|work|pref|fax|cell|pager]
***class="value"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#tz|tz]]" – timezone of the person
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#uid|uid]]" – applies to the ''entire'' hCard
**class="''url''"

:Key
::'''Single occurrence required'''
::'''''One or more, required'''''
::single occurrence optional
::''zero or more occurrence''
::[common list of values]
::(data format)

----

* <code>URL</code> in vCard becomes <code><a class="url" href="...">...</a></code> inside the element with <code>class="vcard"</code> in hCard.
* Similarly, <code>EMAIL</code> in vCard becomes <code><nowiki><a class="email" href="mailto:...">...</a></nowiki></code>
* <code>PHOTO</code> in vCard becomes <code><img class="photo" src="..." alt="Photo of ..." /></code> or <code><object class="photo" data="..." type="...">Photo of ...</object></code>
* <code>UID</code> in vCard simply becomes another semantic applied to a specific URL (or EMAIL) for an hCard.

hcard-cheatsheet

2006-11-26T22:04:24Z

JulianStahnke:

*class="'''vcard'''"
**class="''[[adr]]''"
***class="type" [work|home|pref|postal|dom|intl]
***class="post-office-box"
***class="''street-address''"
***class="extended-address"
***class="region"
***class="locality"
***class="postal-code"
***class="country-name"
**class="''agent''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#bday|bday]]" (ISO date)
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#class|class]]" – confidentiality/access classification of the hCard
**class="''category''"
**class="''email''"
***class="type"
***class="value"
**class="'''[[hcard-singular-properties#fn|fn]]'''"
**class="[[geo]]"
***class="latitude"
**class="longitude"
**class="''key''"
**class="''label''"
**class="''logo''"
**class="''mailer''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#n|n]]"
***class="''honorific-prefix''"
***class="given-name"
***class="''additional-name''"
***class="family-name"
***class="''honorific-suffix''"
**class="''nickname''"
**class="''note''"
**class="''org''"
***class="organization-name"
***class="''organization-unit''"
**class="''photo''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#rev|rev]]"
**class="''role''"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#sort-string|sort-string]]"
**class="''sound''"
**class="''title''"
**class="''tel''"
***class="type" [home|work|pref|fax|cell|pager]
***class="value"
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#tz|tz]]" – timezone of the person
**class="[[hcard-singular-properties#uid|uid]]" – datetime of the revision of the hCard
**class="''url''"

:Key
::'''Single occurrence required'''
::'''''One or more, required'''''
::single occurrence optional
::''zero or more occurrence''
::[common list of values]
::(data format)

----

* <code>URL</code> in vCard becomes <code><a class="url" href="...">...</a></code> inside the element with <code>class="vcard"</code> in hCard.
* Similarly, <code>EMAIL</code> in vCard becomes <code><nowiki><a class="email" href="mailto:...">...</a></nowiki></code>
* <code>PHOTO</code> in vCard becomes <code><img class="photo" src="..." alt="Photo of ..." /></code> or <code><object class="photo" data="..." type="...">Photo of ...</object></code>
* <code>UID</code> in vCard simply becomes another semantic applied to a specific URL (or EMAIL) for an hCard.

hcard-cheatsheet

2006-11-26T21:52:37Z

JulianStahnke:

hcard-cheatsheet

2006-11-26T21:41:02Z

JulianStahnke:

hcard-cheatsheet

2006-11-26T21:38:35Z

JulianStahnke:

hcard-cheatsheet

2006-11-26T21:36:16Z

JulianStahnke:

*class="'''vcard'''"
**class="''adr''"
***class="type" [work|home|pref|postal|dom|intl]
***class="post-office-box"
***class="''street-address''"
***class="extended-address"
***class="region"
***class="locality"
***class="postal-code"
***class="country-name"
**class="''agent''"
**class="bday" (ISO date)
**class="class"
**class="''category''"
**class="''email''"
***class="type"
***class="value"
**class="'''fn'''"
**class="geo"
***class="latitude"
**class="longitude"
**class="''key''"
**class="''label''"
**class="''logo''"
**class="''mailer''"
**class="n"
***class="''honorific-prefix''"
***class="given-name"
***class="''additional-name''"
***class="family-name"
***class="''honorific-suffix''"
**class="''nickname''"
**class="''note''"
**class="''org''"
***class="organization-name"
***class="''organization-unit''"
**class="''photo''"
**class="rev"
**class="''role''"
**class="sort-string"
**class="''sound''"
**class="''title''"
**class="''tel''"
***class="type" [home|work|pref|fax|cell|pager]
***class="value"
**class="tz"
**class="uid"
**class="''url''"

hcard-cheatsheet

2006-11-26T21:33:38Z

JulianStahnke:

*class="vcard"
**class="adr"
***class="type" [work|home|pref|postal|dom|intl]
***class="post-office-box"
***class="street-address"
***class="extended-address"
***class="region"
***class="locality"
***class="postal-code"
***class="country-name"
**class="agent"
**class="bday" (ISO date)
**class="class"
**class="category"
**class="email"
***class="type"
***class="value"
**class="fn"
**class="geo"
***class="latitude"
**class="longitude"
**class="key"
**class="label"
**class="logo"
**class="mailer"
**class="n"
***class="honorific-prefix"
***class="given-name"
***class="additional-name"
***class="family-name"
***class="honorific-suffix"
**class="nickname"
**class="note"
**class="org"
***class="organization-name"
***class="organization-unit"
**class="photo"
**class="rev"
**class="role"
**class="sort-string"
**class="sound"
**class="title"
**class="tel"
***class="type" [home|work|pref|fax|cell|pager]
***class="value"
**class="tz"
**class="uid"
**class="url"

User:JulianStahnke

2006-11-18T11:25:18Z

JulianStahnke:

Hello, my name is Julian Stahnke and I work for [http://www.last.fm Last.fm]. I’m 21 years old and live in London after spending the first 20 years of my life in Bremen, Germany.

User:JulianStahnke

2006-11-18T11:24:51Z

JulianStahnke:

Hello, my name is Julian Stahnke and I work for [Last.fm]. I’m 21 years old and live in London after spending the first 20 years of my life in Bremen, Germany.

User:JulianStahn

2006-11-18T11:23:49Z

JulianStahnke:

irc-people

2006-11-18T11:23:30Z

JulianStahnke:

A list of [[irc|IRC]] regulars and their normal timezones. (winter/summer)

* [[User:BenWest|bewest]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Adam Craven|AdamCraven]] (+0000)
* [[User:Amette|amette]] (+1000)
* [[User:B.K._DeLong|bkdelong]] (-0500/-0400)
* [[User:Ben Ward|BenWard]] (+0000)
* [[User:BenjaminCarlyle|BenjaminCarlyle]] (+1000)
* [[User:Boneill|boneill]] (+0000)
* [[User:Brian|briansuda]] (+0000)
* [[User:ColinDDevroe|cdevroe]] (-0500/-0600)
* [[User:Cgriego|cgriego]] (-0600/-0500)
* [[User:CharlesRoper|charles_r]] (0000/+0100)
* [[User:ChrisCasciano|pnhChris]] (-0500/-0400)
* [[User:ChrisMessina|factoryjoe]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:ChristopherStJohn|cks]] (-0600/-0500)
* [[User:Cloud|Cloud]] (+0000)
* [[User:DanC|DanC]] (-0600/-0500)
** office hours: Wednesday afternoons, America/Chicago time
* [[User:DannyAyers|danja]] (+0100/+0200)
* [[User:Dave Cardwell|davecardwell]] (+0000)
* [[User:DeanEro|deanero]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:DimitriGlazkov|dglazkov]] (-0600/-0500)
* [[User:DrewMcLellan|drewinthehead]] (+0000/+0100)
* [[User:EdwardOConnor|hober]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Enric|enric]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Evan|evanpro]] (-0500)
* [[User:Fil|Fil]] (+0200)
* [[User:Grantbow|Grantbow]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Hlb|hlb]] (+0800-0700)
* [[User:IanHickson|Hixie]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Izo|IZO]]
* [[User:JoeGregorio|jcgregorio]]
* [[User:Jonathan_Arkell|jonnay]] (-0700/0600)
* [[User:JasonK|jkridner]]] (-0600/-0500)
* [[User:Kapowaz|kapowaz]] (+0000/+0100)
* [[User:Keri Henare|kerihenare]] (+1200)
* [http://epeus.blogspot.com/ KevinMarks] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Mark Mansour|Mark Mansour]] (+1100)
* [[User:MarkNormanFrancis|Mark Norman Francis]] (+0000/+0100)
* [[User:CiaranMc|McNulty]] (+0000/+0100)
* [[User:neuro|neuro`]]
* [[User:Phae|Phae]] (+0000/+0100)
* [[User:PriitLaes|plaes]] (+0200/+0300)
* [[User:DavidOsolkowski|qid]] (-0500)
* [[User:Remi|Remi]] (-0500/-0400)
* [[User:RobertBachmann|RobertBachmann]] (+0100/+0200)
** Office hours: <del>Wednesday, 18:00-20:00 UTC</del> (Currently no office hours)
* [[User:Ronnos|Ron Kok]] (+0000)
* [[User:RyanKing|kingryan]] (-0800/-0700)
** [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/04/19/office-hours/ Office hours]: Wednesday, 21:00 UTC
* [[User:Csarven|csarven]] (-0500/-0400)
* [[User:Dana Benson|Snowden]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Steve Ganz|SteveGanz]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Trovster|trovster]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Dan Kubb|dkubb]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Ed Summers|edsu]] (-0500/-0400)
* [[User:Smackman|Steve Farrell]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Enric|Enric]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Charlvn|Charl]] (+0200/+0200)
* [[User:MarkoMrdjenovic|friedcell]] (+0100/+0200)
* [[User:Vant|vant]] (+0900)
* [[User:KrissWatt|VoodooChild]] (+0000/+0100)
* [[User:IwaiMasaharu|iwaim]] (+0900)
* [[User:Richard Conyard|WhiskeyM]] (+0000)
* [[User:Veeliam|William Lawrence]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Ianloic|yakk]] (-0800/-0700)
* [[User:Ashley|Ashley]] (+1000)
* [[User:SuperPhly|SuperPhly]] (-600/-500)
* [[User:Colin_Barrett|cbarrett]] (-1000)
* [[User:HenriBergius|bergie]] (+0200/+0300)
* [[User:JacksonWilkinson|whafro]] (-0500/-0400)
* [[User:Adactio|Jeremy Keith]] (+0000)
* [[User:JulianStahnke|Julian Stahnke]] (+0000)

User:JulianStahn

2006-11-18T11:22:53Z

JulianStahnke:

My name is Julian Stahnke and I work for [Last.fm]

irc-people

2006-11-18T11:22:21Z

JulianStahnke: