Microformats Wiki - User contributions [en]

hlisting-feedback

2009-05-16T06:50:08Z

Mspecht:

cnaroda
== Schema Issues ==

=== Item ===

* is class="item" a part of the spec? It is not clear from the highlight in the proposal.
* if it is, is it optional (as in the [[hlisting-proposal#Schema|schema]]) or required (as implied by the item [[hlisting-proposal#Item_Metadata|item metadata]] section). My feeling is that it should be required

-- [[DavidJanes]] 2006-11-18

=== Listing Action ===

* "listing action" is another one that confuses me, is that two words, one word "listing-action" or just a tag with some of the recommended values... it is required, but i don't see it in action on edgeio.com or Dealtagger

-- [[BrianSuda]] 2006-11-18

=== Make Info/Photo fields Optional ===

WordPress has a great WYSIWYG editor that lets you drag & drop images.
But the only semantic identification it uses is the HTML <img> element.
So how do we get a photo to be identified from all the images inside the description?

1. Manually edit the HTML that WordPress creates to add the class.
2. Add another UI doubling the one already used by WordPress, sans drag & drop, strictly for images designated as photos.
3. Tag every single image as photo.
4. Have the crawler interpret every single image as photo.

I'm not sure we want to push the complexity to the edge, that's like asking people to create only valid XHTML pages and not rendering anything that refuses to validate. This is about humans first, machines second. If complexity needs to exist, it should be not in the blog, but in the crawlers.

-- Assaf Arkin

== Default Action ==
I think it's good form to have a default for every required field, since someone out there is going to drop any given requried field in the land of microformats. In that spirit, the default for listing type is offer, since wanted ads are << 10% in the real world. What I don't know is what the default action should be; the most neutral of them is ''announce'', which I am using in my parser.

-- Rohit

== Donations ==

Sell and Rent are obvious enough verbs; what does Trade mean, though? Barter? And what about one-sided gifts, like donations or "free to recycle"? Should we replace Trade and offer Donate in its place?

-- Rohit

== Desire to Inherit Context ==

When it comes to blog posting, Iâd like to see us address the following:

1. '''Less is more'''. Or in reverse, people are lazy, and the less fields they need to fill in order to sell a couch or find a date, the more they'll use the plugin. So I'm trying to visualize how this plays in with the user interface and how we can keep it as simple as possible.

2. '''DRY'''. We want to capture as much information as possible from what is already available in the blog post. We already have summary (title), listing date/time (post date/time), permalink, author information, tags/categories.

3. '''Keep it simple'''. And here I'm talking about setup and being able to extend your blog's functionality without too much fuss. This one is a bit more tricky, so I'll go into details.

WordPress uses templates to render the blog post. The template then calls the WordPress API to render the title, a second call to render the content, and another call to render any additional metadata (e.g.
publish date, categories, author). These separate calls allow people to play with the formatting and apply any styling they like.

The way uPress works, is by processing the blog post before it goes back to the filter, creating the hEvent (to be: hListing) element around it, and adding any relevant fields into the blog post. So what you fill in the form, finds its way to the post content. As a result, setting up the plugin requires two steps: drop it to the plugins directory, and activate.

Unfortunately, I only get to process the content of the post. I can't easily include the title inside the hListing element, or any other metadata about the post, even though I have access to it. If I duplicate that information, the post stops being readable. And to wrap the entire post (not just body) inside a microformat element, I need to tweak the template. Except people use different templates, and I can't tweak all of them.

So the more context we use, the better the plugin becomes.

-- Assaf Arkin

== '''On hReview''' ==

This draft was heavily influenced by hReview. That's a good thing. We donât want to duplicate efforts; are learning from the mistakes of others; and converging on a cohesive set of specifications. I want to eventually add hReview and hCard to my plugin. So this strategy of borrowing from existing microformats helps me get it done quicker. It took me all of five minutes to leverage address formatting from hEvent.

But we also need to recognize that hReview could also be more blogging friendly. The specification is great, but the implementations are lacking. I think the reason is that hReview was designed for greenfield applications that specifically deal with emitting reviews. The design did not take into consideration applications that already deal with content, but want to supplement it with reviews, listings, etc. There's no mention of such consideration in the spec.

We want to appeal to the wide populace of bloggers who just want to get stuff done. Rather than put the burden on millions of bloggers out there, we should place the burden on the few companies developing crawlers.

What would Tantek say? I think he'd ask us to focus on use cases, real examples. I'm presenting one such example. The use case involves a blogger who just wants to sell something on their blog, with the minimum amount of effort and cognitive friction. They want the listing to be discovered, aggregated and searched by others.

-- Assaf Arkin

== '''Neighborhood Name''' ==

With the exception of housing, most classified listings donât contain a specific address (e.g., if Iâm selling my couch, you donât need to know where I live in the listing). Some location information, however, is important. In most suburban areas, the name of the town is sufficient. In cities, however, neighborhood is important and more contextually relevant than zipcode (simply a region defined by the post office).

This is a tough problem that needs to be solved but outside the context of this discussion. We think there are other cases the could benefit from it, including hReview and hEvent. We recommend that this debate be surface in the adr microformation discussion (e.g., perhaps extend the locality field (city) to optionally include a neighborhood)

-- Craig Donato & Assaf Arkin

== '''Listing Action, Listing Type, Item Type''' ==

We heavily debated how to classify a listing. Search engines or marketplaces typically need to understand what type of listing it is (e.g., personal ad, house for sale, music) to effectively reference or index a listing.

We initially considered proposing a single category field that contained tags (in addition to the tags field). Not only did this seem duplicative, it also seemed like too much of a good thing. In a previous project, Assaf managed to successfully overload everything into tags (including dates and locations), and run time-based and location-based searches, and ended up concluding it's a bad idea.

We eventually decided to propose the use three parametric field that when used together could define any type of listing independent of the words use to describe. These ended up being: listing-type (are you offering something or looking for something; listing-action (are you trying to sell, rent, or announce something); and item type (what item is referenced by the action such as a job opening, product, housing). By making small modifications to this vocabulary, users can specify an extremely wide range of potential transactions. This seemed more feasible given that the UI used to produce the hListing could abstract some of this from the user (as Assaf demonstrated in his demo plugin).

For example:

{|
!Desired Transaction
!Listing Type
!Listing Action
!Item Type
|-
|Merchandise For Sale
|Offer
|Sell
|Product
|-
|Looking to Buy Merchandise
|Wanted
|Sell
|Product
|-
|Selling Tickets
|Offer
|Sell
|Event
|-
|Apartment For Rent
|Offer
|Rent
|Housing
|-
|Looking for Apartment
|Wanted
|Rent
|Housing
|-
|Room for Rent (Roommate)
|Offer
|Rent
|Housing
|-
|Looking for a Date
|Offer||Wanted
|Announce, Meet
|-
|Job Opening
|Offer
|Announce
|Opening
|-
|Looking for a Job (Resume)
|Wanted
|Announce
|Opening
|-
|Music Lessons
|Offer
|Service
|Business
|-
|Trade Couch for TV
|Offer
|Trade
|Product
|-
|Pet for Adoption
|Offer
|Announce
|Animal?
|}
-- Craig Donato

== Vertical ==
Adding "vertical" to the schema would take this idea a lot further and would add enough flexibility to kill off the need for further formats like hJob etc. Specific verticals could be set (jobs, real estate, rentals, auto, other) with additional fields added as subsets of each vertical.

* vertical: rentals
* listing type: offer
* item type: house (vs. appartment)
* listing action: rent

-- [[User:AaronMentele|Aaron Mentele]] (2006-12-26)

== Eliminate Item Type ==

Can we eliminate item type and simply use tags? Or perhaps inferred item type from the item info?

== hClassified? ==

There are meanings of "listing" that wouldn't fit this format.. might not hClassified be a more descriptive name? It's not overconstraining... 'classifieds' being very broad in practice and the meaning very informally/functionally defined. Or has the 'listing' train left the station?

== What about retail? ==

Retail is out of scope for hListing, sure -- but what microformat should a retail seller of (e.g. mass-produced) goods use? hForSale? hProduct?

== Retail ==

Funnily enough, hProduct is always something that I've thought about.

I'd be bold enough to say that it will be one of the main uses of microformats in the future. Imagine the amount of shops, price comparison, product review and many more type of sites. It doesn't have to be for profit, it could just be someones product, on their site, that they are displaying.

I'd be willing to help and continue development of a spec for 'hProduct'.

Adam Craven

== Thubnail Class ==
Hello. I'm not sure I understand everything correctly, but from reading the hListing proposal it seems that one should put pictures of the listed subject into the "photo" class. I'm wondering if also we may wish to have a "thumnail" class or perhaps something like "photo-thumbnail" to denote thumbnail images.
-Andrew

== Validator ==
Perhaps to foster development of this type, someone (who knows a lot more about microformats than I) should put a validator type page out there. I realize that microformats, by their nature are a loose specification (it's not as strict as validating say an XML rss feed). But having something that I can use to at least verify that what I'm coding is actually recognized as an hListing by someone other than myself would be very helpful.
-Andrew

Blogmatrix have added hListing to their microformats parser [http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/ here]
-d4rr3ll

== Extraction of hProduct ==

I think it would be wise to extract product information into [[hproduct|hProduct]] and simply maintain the listing for listing-specific data (such as actual price/suggested price, location, timeframe, etc.).

Also, regarding price, I think going with the currency microformat makes sense, but I also think there should be specifics around the type of price being shown. For instance, there is a MSRP which is tied to the product (and ''should'' be in hProduct), then there is the asking price (or in the case of cars, the dealer invoice, sticker price, etc.). Perhaps going the route of

<pre><nowiki>
<abbr class="currency" title="USD">$</abbr>3.00
</nowiki></pre>

would make more sense?
- Aaron Gustafson

== Use for Microphilanthropy and Volunteer listings ==

Adding 'Donate', as Rohit suggested, would open up hListing for use by microphilanthropy sites like www.Kiva.org or www.DonorsChoose.org (I work there.) See here for an example of one of our listings:

http://www.donorschoose.org/donors/proposal.html?id=64964

So an organization seeking a donation would format it Listing Type: Wanted, Listing Action: Donate, Listing Item: Cash

Someone looking to donate an old PC would format it Listing Type: Offer, Listing Action: Donate, Listing Item: Product

An organization trying to find a volunteer would have Listing Type: Wanted, Listing Action: Donate, Listing Item: Service

Note that some organizations (like Kiva) are doing microloans, instead of microphilanthropy. So in addition to Sell, Rent, Trade, Meet, Announce, and Donate, "Loan" would be useful as a Listing Action. (Could also be useful for facilitating borrowing relationships of items.)

One other addition to hListing that might be useful in this context is Cost. In a commercial setting (say, you're trying to sell a used item on eBay), Cost would represent what you paid for the item. So Price - Cost would get you the markup (or markdown). In a philanthropic context, Cost would represent the cost to make a project happen. If the project were already partially funded, then Price < Cost, and Price / Cost would give you the % remaining to completely fund that project. (Many microphilanthropy sites bundle lots of donations to make up one project.)

-- Mike Everett-Lane

== Job listings ==

The discussion over on the [http://microformats.org/wiki/job-listing-brainstorming Job Listing microformat page] discusses the possibility of using the hlisting format instead of creating a new format.

While jobs can be described using Listing Type="Offer", Listing Action = "Announce" and Item Type ="Opening". Additional mark ups are required to meet the basic job board usages. For example Australian job boards all have Industries, Salary ranges, types of jobs, and a URL for the application. Being able to incorporate these key elements into the hlisting spec would be great.

-- Michael Specht

User:Mspecht

2009-05-16T06:48:44Z

Mspecht: New page: Michael Specht * Blog : http://specht.com.au/michael/ * Company: http://inspecht.com.au/ * Contact at mspecht at gmail dot com Interested in the Resume and Job applications.

Michael Specht

* Blog : http://specht.com.au/michael/
* Company: http://inspecht.com.au/
* Contact at mspecht at gmail dot com

Interested in the Resume and Job applications.

job-listing-brainstorming

2009-05-16T06:36:16Z

Mspecht: /* Andy Mabbett */

= Job Listing Brainstorming =

Ideas for a possible [[job-listing]] microformat.

== Fields from examples ==

(see the [[job-listing-examples]])

{| class="sortable"
! property || xhtml-element || description || major/minor (+/-) priority
|-
| title || h# || title of the job, e.g. 'Project-Manager for Customer-Service-Project' || +
|-
| description || class || job-description || +
|-
| company || [[hcard]] || || +
|-
| company size || class || || +
|-
| company logo || class || || -
|-
| multimedia || class || || -
|-
| location || [[adr]] || || +
|-
| start & end date || dtstart & dtend || :or should we use dstart for the date the ad is posted, and dtend for the closing date for aplications? || +
|-
| type (employee|contract) || class || || +
|-
| classification (full time|part time|temporary| temp to hire|seasonal|internship) || class || || +
|-
| hours/week || class || || +
|-
| salary base || class (see [[currency]]) || || +
|-
| salary max || class (see [[currency]]) || || +
|-
| wage/hour || class (see [[currency]]) || || +
|-
| education || class || ||
|-
| certification || class || ||
|-
| years || class || ||
|-
| required || class || ||
|-
| skill || class || management can fall under skill ||
|-
| years || class || ||
|-
| required || class || ||
|-
| benefit || class || ||
|-
| holiday allowance || || expressed in days or weeks? ||
|-
| contact || [[hcard]]
|-
| time posted || date-time || (is this dtstart? See above) ||
|-
| relocation covered || class || ||
|-
| job function || class || (if absent, fall back to title?) ||
|-
| travel required || class || ||
|-
| industry || || tag on company?
|-
| language of job-listing || <s>class</s> @lang on containing element (or use page's language) || ||
|-
| job-language || class || mainlanguage spoken with colleagues ||
|-
| applicationmaterial || class || e.g. cv, worksamples, licenses, greencard ||
|-
| organisationalid || class || number or phrase - large enterprises have an unique id for a specific job offer ||
|-
| applicationurl || class || Some companies require applicants to fill out application forms online ||
|-
|}

==Filip Chereches-Tosa==
* Maybe there's no need to have a dedicated microformat for jobs and we could somehow extend [http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-proposal the hListing proposal], by adding the following optional fields under '''description''':
** salary
** education
** skills
** type

[[User:FilipCte|Filip C.T.E.]]

==Bruce Stockwell==
I concur with [[User:FilipCte|Filip C.T.E.]]. A vacant or new position at a company can be represented in its basic form by [http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-proposal the hListing proposal]. [http://microformats.org/wiki/measure hMeasure] and [http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-proposal hCurrency] could handle the salary as it would the monetary value of any basic listing. Describing optional and required skill set items needs more discussion.

[[User:BruceStockwell|Bruce Stockwell]]

==Andy Mabbett==
"job-listing" is clunky, would "vacancy" be a better name?
*I second the change of name to "Vacancy". - [[User: NTollervey|ntoll]]
**I disagree, "vacancy" has no context. It could refer to anything - eg "hotel vacancy". - Quint
***In which case, "job-vacancy" or just "job"? [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**** A job is a offering to the market for someone to fill so using the 3 attributes from the hlisting spec Listing Type="Offer", Listing Action = "Announce" and Item Type ="Opening" describe a job opening. [[User:Mspecht|Michael Specht]]

==Christian Pfetzing==

What about "job-offer"? Reason: People with low english-skills often know "offer" but not "vacancy".
On the other hand:
Why not easily "job"?
With an attribute you can specify if it is a "job-offer" or a "job-application". So human beeings/job-platforms can easily compare "offers" and "applications". Manually (humans) or automatic (machines) -- [[User:Christian|Christian]] 05:48, 28 Apr 2007 (PDT)

==Darren Bounds==

Keep in mind the internationally recognized term in the ATS industry is "requisition". This is also defined in the [http://www.hr-xml.org HRXML specification].

While I believe other non-standard options should be considered, it does not appear as though the hResume specification gave any consideration to HRXML, which does have a large adoption for backend transations regarding HR data (including resumes and requisitions).

* While this makes perfect sense from a specialist's back-end view, I'm not sure that I would ever look for a requisition (actually positive that I wouldn't) [[User:Amodal1| Robert Cooksey]]

==See also==
*[http://www.twict.gov.uk/jobs.asp Joined Up Jobs] (job syndication initiative in UK local government)
*[[currency]] - proposed microformat for marking-up amounts of money (for salary, wage, payment, earnings)

==Robert Cooksey==
(hello everyone, my first post, I'll get to creating my user page[[User: Amodal1 | Robert Cooksey]] )
* The idea of extending the hListing proposal sounds like a good one.
** This simplifies the models to more generic containers with detail coming from attribute values
** It also utilizes the time tested models of information organization on sites such as craigslist and paper models such as classifieds while adding the semantic specificity that allows the data to be utilized by systems in widely divergent varieties by agents--human and digital
* Questions concerning this:
** Is there another word than job or requisition that captures all of each and is used in common parlance?
** Would "offer" be the best action for this? Maybe "opportunity" or something of which I'm not thinking?
*** A general enough heading for this action in hListing would allow for a breakdown in terms of type of different forms
*** The suggestion of type could accept values such as:
**** contract, submission (for calls for conferences, publications, etc.), full-time, part-time, etc.
**** This would allow for an opportunity (job/employment, call for papers, etc.) that could be differentiated by attributes of type and availability status (open, closed, conditional, etc.)
** Also, the word "available" seems more flexible should one want to allow for just an expression that expresses openness without too much specificity, but the expiration date might catch-that. What if open-until-filled?
* One last suggestion is to add "experience" to the list Filip posted above
** While many job listers search for skills and education level, number of years experience are also used at least as often

==Michael Specht==
Agree the hlisting format looks like it could easily be extended to meet the initial needs of a job posting, assuming we look at a job posting as a classified ad not from the view point of a recruiter. One of the issues that limited the take up of HRXML in the early days was it's complexity, experienced gained here in Australia trying to get vendors to support the format. The list of elements above seems to describe a job from an HR/recruitment point of view not a classifieds point of view.

I see the biggest issue with the hlisting format being how to handle: salary, skills, type, industry and application process.

job-listing-brainstorming

2009-05-16T06:35:23Z

Mspecht:

= Job Listing Brainstorming =

Ideas for a possible [[job-listing]] microformat.

== Fields from examples ==

(see the [[job-listing-examples]])

{| class="sortable"
! property || xhtml-element || description || major/minor (+/-) priority
|-
| title || h# || title of the job, e.g. 'Project-Manager for Customer-Service-Project' || +
|-
| description || class || job-description || +
|-
| company || [[hcard]] || || +
|-
| company size || class || || +
|-
| company logo || class || || -
|-
| multimedia || class || || -
|-
| location || [[adr]] || || +
|-
| start & end date || dtstart & dtend || :or should we use dstart for the date the ad is posted, and dtend for the closing date for aplications? || +
|-
| type (employee|contract) || class || || +
|-
| classification (full time|part time|temporary| temp to hire|seasonal|internship) || class || || +
|-
| hours/week || class || || +
|-
| salary base || class (see [[currency]]) || || +
|-
| salary max || class (see [[currency]]) || || +
|-
| wage/hour || class (see [[currency]]) || || +
|-
| education || class || ||
|-
| certification || class || ||
|-
| years || class || ||
|-
| required || class || ||
|-
| skill || class || management can fall under skill ||
|-
| years || class || ||
|-
| required || class || ||
|-
| benefit || class || ||
|-
| holiday allowance || || expressed in days or weeks? ||
|-
| contact || [[hcard]]
|-
| time posted || date-time || (is this dtstart? See above) ||
|-
| relocation covered || class || ||
|-
| job function || class || (if absent, fall back to title?) ||
|-
| travel required || class || ||
|-
| industry || || tag on company?
|-
| language of job-listing || <s>class</s> @lang on containing element (or use page's language) || ||
|-
| job-language || class || mainlanguage spoken with colleagues ||
|-
| applicationmaterial || class || e.g. cv, worksamples, licenses, greencard ||
|-
| organisationalid || class || number or phrase - large enterprises have an unique id for a specific job offer ||
|-
| applicationurl || class || Some companies require applicants to fill out application forms online ||
|-
|}

==Filip Chereches-Tosa==
* Maybe there's no need to have a dedicated microformat for jobs and we could somehow extend [http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-proposal the hListing proposal], by adding the following optional fields under '''description''':
** salary
** education
** skills
** type

[[User:FilipCte|Filip C.T.E.]]

==Bruce Stockwell==
I concur with [[User:FilipCte|Filip C.T.E.]]. A vacant or new position at a company can be represented in its basic form by [http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-proposal the hListing proposal]. [http://microformats.org/wiki/measure hMeasure] and [http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-proposal hCurrency] could handle the salary as it would the monetary value of any basic listing. Describing optional and required skill set items needs more discussion.

[[User:BruceStockwell|Bruce Stockwell]]

==Andy Mabbett==
"job-listing" is clunky, would "vacancy" be a better name?
*I second the change of name to "Vacancy". - [[User: NTollervey|ntoll]]
**I disagree, "vacancy" has no context. It could refer to anything - eg "hotel vacancy". - Quint
***In which case, "job-vacancy" or just "job"? [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]]
**** A job is a offering to the market for someone to fill so using the 3 attributes from the hlisting spec Listing Type="Offer", Listing Action = "Announce" and Item Type ="Opening" describe a job opening. [[User:MichaelSpecht|Michael Specht]]

==Christian Pfetzing==

What about "job-offer"? Reason: People with low english-skills often know "offer" but not "vacancy".
On the other hand:
Why not easily "job"?
With an attribute you can specify if it is a "job-offer" or a "job-application". So human beeings/job-platforms can easily compare "offers" and "applications". Manually (humans) or automatic (machines) -- [[User:Christian|Christian]] 05:48, 28 Apr 2007 (PDT)

==Darren Bounds==

Keep in mind the internationally recognized term in the ATS industry is "requisition". This is also defined in the [http://www.hr-xml.org HRXML specification].

While I believe other non-standard options should be considered, it does not appear as though the hResume specification gave any consideration to HRXML, which does have a large adoption for backend transations regarding HR data (including resumes and requisitions).

* While this makes perfect sense from a specialist's back-end view, I'm not sure that I would ever look for a requisition (actually positive that I wouldn't) [[User:Amodal1| Robert Cooksey]]

==See also==
*[http://www.twict.gov.uk/jobs.asp Joined Up Jobs] (job syndication initiative in UK local government)
*[[currency]] - proposed microformat for marking-up amounts of money (for salary, wage, payment, earnings)

==Robert Cooksey==
(hello everyone, my first post, I'll get to creating my user page[[User: Amodal1 | Robert Cooksey]] )
* The idea of extending the hListing proposal sounds like a good one.
** This simplifies the models to more generic containers with detail coming from attribute values
** It also utilizes the time tested models of information organization on sites such as craigslist and paper models such as classifieds while adding the semantic specificity that allows the data to be utilized by systems in widely divergent varieties by agents--human and digital
* Questions concerning this:
** Is there another word than job or requisition that captures all of each and is used in common parlance?
** Would "offer" be the best action for this? Maybe "opportunity" or something of which I'm not thinking?
*** A general enough heading for this action in hListing would allow for a breakdown in terms of type of different forms
*** The suggestion of type could accept values such as:
**** contract, submission (for calls for conferences, publications, etc.), full-time, part-time, etc.
**** This would allow for an opportunity (job/employment, call for papers, etc.) that could be differentiated by attributes of type and availability status (open, closed, conditional, etc.)
** Also, the word "available" seems more flexible should one want to allow for just an expression that expresses openness without too much specificity, but the expiration date might catch-that. What if open-until-filled?
* One last suggestion is to add "experience" to the list Filip posted above
** While many job listers search for skills and education level, number of years experience are also used at least as often

==Michael Specht==
Agree the hlisting format looks like it could easily be extended to meet the initial needs of a job posting, assuming we look at a job posting as a classified ad not from the view point of a recruiter. One of the issues that limited the take up of HRXML in the early days was it's complexity, experienced gained here in Australia trying to get vendors to support the format. The list of elements above seems to describe a job from an HR/recruitment point of view not a classifieds point of view.

I see the biggest issue with the hlisting format being how to handle: salary, skills, type, industry and application process.