Microformats Wiki - User contributions [en]

include-pattern-feedback

2007-12-17T20:47:32Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */ Ajax and DOM clarification

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our [[hreview|hReviews]] on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax to perform replacements in advanced browsers? (Simon Willison's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementsBySelector()]</code> may be helpful)
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
with something like:
//Works only for linked include-pattern definition at microformats.org
//Requires Simon Willison's getElementsBySelector()
// and normal IE workaround for addEventListener()
addEventListener( window, 'load', function() {
var myIncludes = document.getElementsBySelector( 'a[href].include' ), a, e;
for( var i=0; a=myIncludes[i]; i++ ) if (a.href.charAt(0)=='#') {
e = document.getElementsBySelector( a.href )[0].cloneNode( true );
a.parentNode.replaceChild( e, a );
}
})
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

It seems there is some confusion around this topic. I believe that the included data '''are not supposed to be actually included in the point of inclusion'''. I believe it is only meant to be a hint for the microformats parser; but the inclusion pattern should not affect how the page is rendered. If that is true, let's clear out this page:
* Remove the DHTML suggestion by Rich Hall.
* Change the IRC quote between Tantek and Kaply. Replace the quote ''"clone the dom node from the other vcard and replace the object with the corresponding nodes"'' with ''"look for objects in the vcard and check their corresponding nodes in the dom" [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-01-03#T165941|IRC of 2007-01-03]'' or remove the IRC quote completely.

-- [[User:JiriKopsa]] 18 Mar 2007

:For clarification, it is true that the spec *does* call for a microformat include to be ignored (content-neutral) when its data isn't being accessed. My Ajax suggestion is valid for those of us extracting microformat data client-side, but feel free to use it from an XHR callback instead of a window load event. Also, it would seem that without adjusting the DOM by cloning the repeated nodes, implementers would have to roll their own smart traversal functions rather than using built-in or well-defined CSS, XPath, E4X, etc. My feedback is that it's usually easier/faster to complete the tree than leave it sparse and memory-efficient, but it would be nice if the spec could leave enough wiggle room for both alternatives.
:-- [[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 12:47, 17 Dec 2007 (PST)

My hResume page [http://robert.o-rourke.org seen here] caused Safari <ins>2.0</ins> some major issues. The page was jumping between object elements when a link was hovered eventually causing the browser to crash. You can follow the thread on the [http://www.mail-archive.com/listdad%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg06078.html WSG mail archive].

It seems that while the object element may be more semantically appropriate it <del>is not</del> <ins>may not be</ins> usable in lieu of the issues raised in Safari.

--[[User:SanchoTheFat|Robert O'Rourke]] 12:08, 3 Nov 2006 (PST)

Which version of Safari? Please be specific as many Safari OBJECT bugs were fixed in Safari 2.x.

-- [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 13:39, 3 Nov 2006 (PST)

The issues with OBJECT in Internet Explorer & Safari and the lack of a good workaround example are a show stopper for me using this. I am now commenting it out. Hope someone can think of a workaround!

--[[User:WizardIsHungry|Jon Williams]] 10:21, 7 Feb 2007 (PST)

== Hyperlink Include - issues for keyboard users (including Screen Reader users) ==

Although invisible in visual user agents, and (according to the JAWS 7.0 test below) not spoken by screen readers (at least not by JAWS 7.0), empty links are still contained in the normal tab cycle. Users navigating via keyboard (or equivalent, e.g. switch access, puff/blow devices, etc) will still need to tab through the empty links (tested in Firefox 2.0, IE 6, IE 7; Opera 9.2 seems to remove empty links from tab cycle).

This can be verified by modifying the test page below, adding a regular link at the end of the 5 variations of empty links. It takes a user 6 tabs to arrive at the "real" link. It would therefore be advisable to rethink the approach, or scrap it completely.

-- [[User:PatrickLauke|Patrick H. Lauke]] 28 Apr 2007

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

Purpose of this test was to ascertain what JAWS 7.0 would verbally announce to a user visiting the test case.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Was keyboard access fully tested (see above)? This test is not conclusive, as JAWS 7.0's behavior may well differ from other access technology. Further testing with a wider range of readers is strongly recommended. -- [[User:PatrickLauke|Patrick H. Lauke]] 28 Apr 2007

The example above has been incorrectly stated, to be honest. Conclusion was just a conclusion for that verbal test, not overall. Therefore, removed "Conclusion" line so it's not misleading! I concur with additional tests are vital (by as many people/softwares/scenarios as possible!). [[User:Phae|Phae]] 04:10, 2 May 2007 (PDT)

=== Proprietary attribute ===
<s>
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)
</s>

==== Test page corrected ====
2006-10-25: This error has been corrected on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page]. Any tests should probably be re-run in light of this.

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==Parsing for include-pattern==

''Note: this issue is obsolete. On a [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-01-03#T165528 IRC conversation 2007-01-03], Mike Kaply admitted that he figured this out, which is to apply all includes first into the parse tree before looking for any properties. -Tantek''

''To be more specific, what finally occurred to me is that the object pattern is simply about grabbing nodes from another vcard and using them in this vcard. So the implementor responsibility is just to clone the dom node from the other vcard and replace the object with the corresponding nodes. Works great. (of course I also had to clone the entire vcard since I can't manipulate the DOM like that without changing the page) -mkaply''

In an [http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2007-01-02#T205847 IRC discussion] with [http://www.kaply.com/weblog/ Mike Kaply] (author of the [https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/ Operator] extension for Firefox) we discussed the difficulty of parsing for an [[include-pattern]] in [[hresume|hResume]]. Mike asks:
<blockquote>I'm really wondering why the <code>object</code> stuff doesn't point back to the entire vCard. I don't understand why the spec has it point to individual items.</blockquote>
The problem was thought to be a weakness in the specification, which doesn't specify what part of the data is in the content that is pointed to by the <code>object</code>.

Currently, to overcome this a parser needs to follow this logic:
::IF I don't find an <code>fn</code>, look for an <code>object</code>. IF there is an <code>object</code>, do a <code>getelementbyid</code> on that <code>ID</code>, but yet there was nothing about that <code>object</code> that said that the content I was looking for in the other card was an <code>fn</code>

Two things may help in overcoming this difficulty:

# Change the spec to have the include-pattern reference the entire vCard, with the intent that any data not found in this vCard use the other vCard
# Include the element of the reference, where the class attribute on <code><object></code> has "include" plus the element that needs to be included. For example:
<pre><nowiki><object
class="include fn" data="#vcard-name">myname</object> </nowiki></pre>

Additionally, I pointed out that using the <code><object></code> element to contain the reference makes Microsoft's Internet Explorer throw an error "Your current security settings prohibit ActiveX controls on this page. As a result, the page may not display correctly." Of course, there is no ActiveX content on an include-pattern.

[[User:Bob Jonkman|Bob Jonkman]] 21:15, 2 Jan 2007 (PST)#

==Concatenating values==

I feel that there should be a way to "include" data from two places, in one microformat property. For instance:

<pre><nowiki>Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting</nowiki></pre>
<pre><nowiki>Janaury</nowiki></pre>

and later

<pre><nowiki><object data="#summaryB+#summaryA" class="include"></object></nowiki></pre>

would give a summary of:

:'''January Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting'''

It may even be possible to include extra data:

<pre><nowiki>Fred Smith</nowiki></pre>

<pre><nowiki><object data="#summaryA+ with +#summaryC" class="include"></object></nowiki></pre>

to give:

:'''Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting with Fred Smith'''

[[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 14:33, 8 Jan 2007 (PST)

Why not use

<pre><nowiki><object data="#summaryA" class="include"></object> with <object data="#summaryB" class="include"></object></nowiki></pre>

to build

:'''Kidderminster Branch Indoor Meeting with Fred Smith'''

[[User:DerrickPallas|Derrick Pallas]] 11:15, 31 Jan 2007 (PST)

:Neat solution! Can anyone say whether current parsers accept this? [[User:AndyMabbett|Andy Mabbett]] 12:18, 31 Jan 2007 (PST)

:Fully disclosure: My XSLT transformer supports this implicitly because it does include-pattern first, then pulls values. My only question would be what to do with nested @class="value" elements that could result from this. [[User:DerrickPallas|Derrick Pallas]] 12:35, 31 Jan 2007 (PST)

==Related Pages==
{{include-pattern-related-pages}}

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T08:39:19Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax to perform replacements in advanced browsers? (Simon Willison's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementsBySelector()]</code> may be helpful)
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
with something like:
//Works only for linked include-pattern definition at microformats.org
//Requires Simon Willison's getElementsBySelector()
// and normal IE workaround for addEventListener()
addEventListener( window, 'load', function() {
var myIncludes = document.getElementsBySelector( 'a[href].include' ), a, e;
for( var i=0; a=myIncludes[i]; i++ ) if (a.href.charAt(0)=='#') {
e = document.getElementsBySelector( a.href )[0].cloneNode( true );
a.parentNode.replaceChild( e, a );
}
})
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T08:34:41Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax to perform replacements in advanced browsers? (Simon Willison's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementsBySelector()]</code> may be helpful)
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
with something like:
//Works only for linked include-pattern definition at microformats.org
//Requires Simon Willison's getElementsBySelector()
// and standard IE workaround for addEventListener()
addEventListener( window, 'load', function() {
var myIncludes = document.getElementsBySelector( 'a[href].include' ), a, e;
for( var i=0; a=myIncludes[i]; i++ ) if (a.href.charAt(0)=='#') {
e = document.getElementsBySelector( a.href )[0].cloneNode( true );
a.parentNode.replaceChild( e, a );
}
})
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T08:32:47Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax to perform replacements in advanced browsers? (Simon Willison's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementsBySelector()]</code> may be helpful)
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
with something like:
//Works only for linked include-pattern definition at microformats.org
//Requires Simon Willison's getElementsBySelector()
// and standard IE workaround for addEventListener()
addEventListener(window,'load',function(){
var myIncludes=document.getElementsBySelector('a[href].include'),a,e;
for( var i=0; a=myIncludes[i]; i++ )if(a.href.charAt(0)=='#'){
e=document.getElementsBySelector(a.href)[0].cloneNode(true);
a.parentNode.replaceChild(e,a);
}
})
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T08:00:56Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax to perform replacements in advanced browsers? (Simon Willison's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementsBySelector()]</code> may be helpful)
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T08:00:30Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax to perform replacements in advanced browsers? (Simon Willion's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementsBySelector()]</code> may be helpful)
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T07:59:03Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax (see Simon Willion's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementsBySelector()]</code>) to perform replacements in advanced browsers?
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T07:58:08Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax (see Simon Willion's <code>[http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/03/25/getElementsBySelector getElementBySelector()]</code>) to perform replacements in advanced browsers?
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T07:51:11Z

RichHall: /* Objects and Browser Behavior */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

Can you use the hyperlink option with DHMTL/Ajax to perform replacements in advanced browsers?
<a href="#id" class="include" title=""></a>
--[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 00:51, 23 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T07:30:26Z

RichHall: /* Proprietary attribute */ Adjusted response slightly.

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

==== Use href ====
To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the <code>href</code> attribute as described at [[include-pattern]] (without <code>href</code> attributes, the elements probably won't register as hyperlinks, but anchors). Set <code>title=""</code> to fix empty link behavior for many assistive devices. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

include-pattern-feedback

2006-10-23T06:31:34Z

RichHall: /* Proprietary attribute */

= Include Pattern Feedback =

Feedback about [[include-pattern]].

== Objects and Browser Behavior ==

Over at Yahoo! Local, we were using the object include pattern for all our hReviews on business detail pages and review listings. That is, until we realized that Safari and Internet Explorer both try to embed the entire page with every OBJECT call. (Firefox correctly recognizes that it's a local object and doesn't reload anything.)

On a page with 20+ reviews, this means a substantial increase in load time and memory consumption. As a result of this (bad) browser behavior, we removed the objects entirely.

Any suggestions for workarounds or modifications to the pattern?

-- AndyBaio 29 Jun 2006

== Hyperlink Include - Screen Reader Testing ==

Some [http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004693.html concerns have been raised] over the implications using empty hyperlinks may have on assistive devices such as screen readers. One concern is that an empty link may be read out, partially read out or result in some other confusing scenario for the user.

In response, a [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] consisting of a number of empty hyperlinks in the style suggested by the pattern has been created. A 'good' result is that none of the links be read out.

=== Test Results: JAWS 7.0 with Firefox 1.5/Win ===

Tested by [[User:Phae|Frances Berriman]] 2006-07-21.

* 31 dash include dash Mozilla Firefox
* Page has no links
* 31 dash include

Conclusion: the hyperlink include pattern presented no usability issues for this screen reader.

=== Proprietary attribute ===
HTML tidy on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] gives:
:Warning: <a> proprietary attribute "data"

The [http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fallinthehead.com%2Fdemo%2Finclude.html W3C validator is similarly unimpressed].

[[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 14:22, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

To clarify, links on the [http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html test page] should be changed to use the "href" attribute as described at [[include-pattern]]. --[[User:RichHall|RichHall]] 23:31, 22 Oct 2006 (PDT)

== Unclear status ==

It's not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]], whether this is an agreed standard, a draft, or just a proposal. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 03:14, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)

* [[include-pattern]] is not its own proposal, draft, or spec. It is a design pattern, as listed on the [[Main_Page|wiki home page]] that is included in other proposals, drafts. and specs. ''Recommend for adding to the [[include-pattern-faq]].
**And that is not clear, either from the main Wiki page or [[include-pattern]]. [[User:AndyMabbett|AndyMabbett]] 16:40, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)
***ACCEPTED. Will further clarify relationship between patterns and formats. [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 16:48, 18 Oct 2006 (PDT)