events/2011-02-01-microformats-dinner: Difference between revisions

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<entry-title>Microformats Dinner & Drinks</entry-title>
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Microformats Dinner & Drinks}}
__TOC__
__TOC__
One of several microformats [[meetup]] [[events]].
One of several microformats [[meetup]] [[events]].
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:<span class="summary">Microformats Weekly Meetup Dinner, San Francisco</span>
:<span class="summary">Microformats Weekly Meetup Dinner, San Francisco</span>
;Web
;Web
:<span class="url">http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/7697850/</span>
:<span class="url">http://upcoming.org/event/7697850/</span>
:<span class="url">http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=179746412062960</span>
:<span class="url">http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=179746412062960</span>
:<span class="url">http://plancast.com/p/3q2t</span>
:<span class="url">http://plancast.com/p/3q2t</span>
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'''[http://h2vx.com/ics/microformats.org/wiki/events/2011-02-01-weekly-dinner-sf Add this event to your calendar]''' http://www.boogdesign.com/images/buttons/microformat_hcalendar.png
'''[http://h2vx.com/ics/microformats.org/wiki/events/2011-02-01-weekly-dinner-sf Add this event to your calendar]''' http://www.boogdesign.com/images/buttons/microformat_hcalendar.png


== Weekly Meetup ==
== Meetup ==
<div class="description">The microformats community has grown and stabilized over the past few years, news of adoptions, new ideas and challenges come up frequently enough that there are no shortage of new topics to discuss on a weekly basis.
<div class="description">The microformats community has grown and stabilized over the past few years, news of adoptions, new ideas and challenges come up frequently enough that there are no shortage of new topics to discuss on a regular basis.
   
   
Come along, meet up with the microformats community in San Francisco.
Come along, meet up with the microformats community in San Francisco.
Line 56: Line 56:
* PJKix
* PJKix


== Notes ==
== Photographs ==  
Topics Discussed:
* ...
== Photographs ==
* Search for photographs from this event on Flickr: [http://flickr.com/photos/tags/microformats-dinner-2011-02-01 Photographs tagged microformats-dinner-2011-02-01] or for [http://flickr.com/photos/tags/microformats-dinner all photographs from microformats dinners].
* Search for photographs from this event on Flickr: [http://flickr.com/photos/tags/microformats-dinner-2011-02-01 Photographs tagged microformats-dinner-2011-02-01] or for [http://flickr.com/photos/tags/microformats-dinner all photographs from microformats dinners].
   
   
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/5409768849/ http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5409768849_3a18bb89a9_z.jpg]
''Add a photograph from this event here''.
''Add a photograph from this event here''.
== Notes ==
   
   
Topics Discussed:
* [[admins]] - how to mentor and develop new admins, encourage positive community growth
* [[microformats-2]]
* [[process-brainstorming]], specifically, iterating on ideas for more precisely defining the state of microformats specs. Thoughts by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]], with additional suggestions incorporated from [[User:Kevin_Marks|Kevin Marks]] and [[User:BenWard|Ben Ward]]:
** '''what's the real world problem we're solving?''' (should ask for all microformats efforts)
*** no microformats "drafts" have made it to "specification" since site launch in 2005
** '''why is this a real world problem?'''
*** perception/actual lack of microformats progress, or frustration with (in)ability to make progress, hurts adoption/evangelism efforts, raises barrier to additional adoption of microformats.
** '''is this just blocked due to lack of explicit process or is there something more?'''
*** Tantek: both.
**** Yes there is currently no defined [[process]] for transitioning from draft to specification.
**** Also - outstanding issues. From my perspective, for most of the past, none of the drafts have deserved progressing due to unresolved issues regarding accessibility and internationalization. Fortunately most of those cross-microformat issues were actually finally resolved in 2009 and most specific microformat (e.g. [[hCard-issues]]) have been resolved since.
**** What remains:
***** draft a simple process that provides the minimal needed guidance for evolving drafts.
***** take/iterate one or more drafts through the new stages to prove out the process (perhaps oldest/most popular first: [[hCard]], [[hCalendar]], [[hReview]], [[hAtom]])
****** resolve outstanding issues, incorporate issue resolutions into draft iterations
***** evaluate how well that "worked" and iterate process accordingly.
** '''how do we create "real world" process for advancing drafts?'''
*** follow microformats philosophy, gather examples of what others do, what works, minimally pick 80/20 that seem necessary, base it on microformats principles (real world, mimimal).
** '''research: previous efforts''' at defining specification progress stages:
*** [http://w3.org W3C] process: Working Draft (WD), Last Call (WDLC), Candidate Recommendation (CR), Proposed Recommendation (PR), Recommendation (REC).
*** [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Internet_standard IETF process]: Internet Draft (draft), RFC, Proposed Standard, Draft Standard, Standard.
*** WhatWG process: continuously updated editor's specification
** Thus, '''draft stages brainstorm: ''draft'', ''specification'' (as used currently), and ''standard'' (new)''' based on being market proven (only market proven standards are "real world" standards). Specific brainstorm definitions:
** '''draft'''
*** consensus has been reached among the various *-brainstorming proposals, sufficient to write-up into a stand-alone draft.
*** ready for publishers to start experimenting with on their public pages, and providing feedback for draft iteration accordingly
*** ready for consumers to start experimenting with consuming such publishers, and providing feedback for draft iteration accordingly
*** major changes can still occur
** '''specification''' - a draft that is mature/stable as determined by:
*** all outstanding *-issues resolved (bounced off zero issues, and perhaps stayed there for a few weeks)
*** 1+ solid real world publisher(s) that
**** benefit end users (i.e. not just fictional/artificial data published for data's sake)
**** not the/an editor of the spec (demonstrates some breadth of interest)
*** 1+ solid real world consumer(s) that
**** successfully consumes the microformats published by the aforementioned publisher(s).
**** provides real world end user benefits / use-cases (libraries/opensource are nice as enablers but insufficient for this)
**** not the/an editor of the spec (demonstrates some breadth of interest)
*** minor changes can still occur, up to and including dropping of properties and values (especially in order to reach "standard" stage - see below)
*** '''[[hReview]] and [[hAtom]] are ready to become "specifications"''' with a bit of work:
**** resolve outstanding issues and incorporate into spec updates (0.4, 0.2 respectively)
**** use existing *-examples-in-wild and *-implementations pages as supporting evidence for publisher(s)/consumer(s) requirement
** '''standard''' - only market proven specifications are standards for practical purposes, thus this is determined by:
*** test suite with at least one test per feature (property/value) (should be easy)
*** 2+ solid real world publishers as defined above for "specification"
*** 2+ solid real world consumers as defined above for "specification" and with additional requirements that:
**** pass the test suite tests
**** interoperably consume the microformats published by the aforementioned publishers.
*** each property is published by 2+ of those publishers
*** each property is consumed by 2+ of those consumers
*** thus properties that are published by &lt;2 publishers or consumed by &lt;2 consumers block advancement from specification to standard. The options to progress to standard are:
**** drop such under-supported property(ies) - insufficient market support to keep them. Thus properties which fail in the real world should be and get dropped. This also supports the simplify [[principle]]. Such features may be reconsidered for future versions if more sufficient publishers/consumers adopt them.
**** or wait for more additional publisher(s)/consumer(s) to support them. a bit up to the editor's preference.
*** at this point bump the version # to 1.0 (if it isn't there already)
*** '''[[hCard]] and [[hCalendar]] are ready to become "standards"''' with a bit of work:
**** incorporate resolved issues into 1.0.1 releases (use 1.0.1 due to how long we left them a 1.0)
**** write up remaining missing test cases for a full property (not necessarily value) coverage test suite
**** drop insufficiently supported properties (e.g. "class", "key")
== Articles and Blog Posts ==
== Articles and Blog Posts ==
Articles and blog posts following up on the meetup. Add a link to your post in the list below:
Articles and blog posts following up on the meetup. Add a link to your post in the list below:

Latest revision as of 16:22, 18 July 2020

One of several microformats meetup events.

Details

When
2011-02-01 from 19:00 to 21:00
Where
21st Amendment, 563 2nd Street, San Francisco, CA 94107 USA
What
Microformats Weekly Meetup Dinner, San Francisco
Web
http://upcoming.org/event/7697850/
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=179746412062960
http://plancast.com/p/3q2t


Add this event to your calendar microformat_hcalendar.png

Meetup

The microformats community has grown and stabilized over the past few years, news of adoptions, new ideas and challenges come up frequently enough that there are no shortage of new topics to discuss on a regular basis.

Come along, meet up with the microformats community in San Francisco.

In another city? Check out Weekly Meetup: Other Cities and help organize one in your own city!

Tags

Use the following tags on related content (blog posts, photos, tweets):

tags: microformats-dinner microformats-meetup microformats san-francisco soma southpark 2ndstreet 21stAmendment microformats-dinner-2011-02-01 upcoming:event=7697850

If you use Twitter, mention @microformats dinner' in tweets about the event, and track them on Twitter Search.

Attendees

Add yourself alphabetically sorted by family name if you plan on attending or attended this event.

  • Tantek Çelik
  • Ben Ward
  • Kevin Marks
  • Jeremy Anderson
  • Laura
  • Ian Fung
  • PJKix

Photographs

5409768849_3a18bb89a9_z.jpg

Add a photograph from this event here.

Notes

Topics Discussed:

  • admins - how to mentor and develop new admins, encourage positive community growth
  • microformats-2
  • process-brainstorming, specifically, iterating on ideas for more precisely defining the state of microformats specs. Thoughts by Tantek, with additional suggestions incorporated from Kevin Marks and Ben Ward:
    • what's the real world problem we're solving? (should ask for all microformats efforts)
      • no microformats "drafts" have made it to "specification" since site launch in 2005
    • why is this a real world problem?
      • perception/actual lack of microformats progress, or frustration with (in)ability to make progress, hurts adoption/evangelism efforts, raises barrier to additional adoption of microformats.
    • is this just blocked due to lack of explicit process or is there something more?
      • Tantek: both.
        • Yes there is currently no defined process for transitioning from draft to specification.
        • Also - outstanding issues. From my perspective, for most of the past, none of the drafts have deserved progressing due to unresolved issues regarding accessibility and internationalization. Fortunately most of those cross-microformat issues were actually finally resolved in 2009 and most specific microformat (e.g. hCard-issues) have been resolved since.
        • What remains:
          • draft a simple process that provides the minimal needed guidance for evolving drafts.
          • take/iterate one or more drafts through the new stages to prove out the process (perhaps oldest/most popular first: hCard, hCalendar, hReview, hAtom)
            • resolve outstanding issues, incorporate issue resolutions into draft iterations
          • evaluate how well that "worked" and iterate process accordingly.
    • how do we create "real world" process for advancing drafts?
      • follow microformats philosophy, gather examples of what others do, what works, minimally pick 80/20 that seem necessary, base it on microformats principles (real world, mimimal).
    • research: previous efforts at defining specification progress stages:
      • W3C process: Working Draft (WD), Last Call (WDLC), Candidate Recommendation (CR), Proposed Recommendation (PR), Recommendation (REC).
      • IETF process: Internet Draft (draft), RFC, Proposed Standard, Draft Standard, Standard.
      • WhatWG process: continuously updated editor's specification
    • Thus, draft stages brainstorm: draft, specification (as used currently), and standard (new) based on being market proven (only market proven standards are "real world" standards). Specific brainstorm definitions:
    • draft
      • consensus has been reached among the various *-brainstorming proposals, sufficient to write-up into a stand-alone draft.
      • ready for publishers to start experimenting with on their public pages, and providing feedback for draft iteration accordingly
      • ready for consumers to start experimenting with consuming such publishers, and providing feedback for draft iteration accordingly
      • major changes can still occur
    • specification - a draft that is mature/stable as determined by:
      • all outstanding *-issues resolved (bounced off zero issues, and perhaps stayed there for a few weeks)
      • 1+ solid real world publisher(s) that
        • benefit end users (i.e. not just fictional/artificial data published for data's sake)
        • not the/an editor of the spec (demonstrates some breadth of interest)
      • 1+ solid real world consumer(s) that
        • successfully consumes the microformats published by the aforementioned publisher(s).
        • provides real world end user benefits / use-cases (libraries/opensource are nice as enablers but insufficient for this)
        • not the/an editor of the spec (demonstrates some breadth of interest)
      • minor changes can still occur, up to and including dropping of properties and values (especially in order to reach "standard" stage - see below)
      • hReview and hAtom are ready to become "specifications" with a bit of work:
        • resolve outstanding issues and incorporate into spec updates (0.4, 0.2 respectively)
        • use existing *-examples-in-wild and *-implementations pages as supporting evidence for publisher(s)/consumer(s) requirement
    • standard - only market proven specifications are standards for practical purposes, thus this is determined by:
      • test suite with at least one test per feature (property/value) (should be easy)
      • 2+ solid real world publishers as defined above for "specification"
      • 2+ solid real world consumers as defined above for "specification" and with additional requirements that:
        • pass the test suite tests
        • interoperably consume the microformats published by the aforementioned publishers.
      • each property is published by 2+ of those publishers
      • each property is consumed by 2+ of those consumers
      • thus properties that are published by <2 publishers or consumed by <2 consumers block advancement from specification to standard. The options to progress to standard are:
        • drop such under-supported property(ies) - insufficient market support to keep them. Thus properties which fail in the real world should be and get dropped. This also supports the simplify principle. Such features may be reconsidered for future versions if more sufficient publishers/consumers adopt them.
        • or wait for more additional publisher(s)/consumer(s) to support them. a bit up to the editor's preference.
      • at this point bump the version # to 1.0 (if it isn't there already)
      • hCard and hCalendar are ready to become "standards" with a bit of work:
        • incorporate resolved issues into 1.0.1 releases (use 1.0.1 due to how long we left them a 1.0)
        • write up remaining missing test cases for a full property (not necessarily value) coverage test suite
        • drop insufficiently supported properties (e.g. "class", "key")

Articles and Blog Posts

Articles and blog posts following up on the meetup. Add a link to your post in the list below:

  • ...

Also, find posts on this meetup on Google Blog Search or Technorati.

Related Pages