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hAtom 0.2

This section is for discussing what you'd like to see in the next version of hAtom, i.e. 0.2.

Feed XXX (atom:xxx)

Template section: if there is something clearly from an Atom Feed that you'd like in hAtom 0.2, use this section as a template and replicate it in place here. See the hAtom 0.1 section below for more details.

Feed id (atom:id)

2006-04-01 raised by Robert Bachmann

atom:id is required for atom:feed. Thus it should be available in hAtom to. The Feed permalink should be used as the feed id.

Feed permalink (atom:permalink)

2006-04-01 raised by Robert Bachmann

I'm proposing the following rules:

* feed level = inside a Feed element but not inside an Entry element

2006-04-03 ChrisCasciano - I'm not sure that having a rel-boomkark-able link element at the feed level / to designate a feed in an html page separate for the other content is anything close to normal usage on the web, so I'd be very hesitant on suggesting this element "SHOULD" exist. I'm also curious when this element would link to anything but the current page (or some element on the current page) for this to be useful in the context of the HTML doc. I think taking the "id" on the feed is a more workable solution in most cases.

2006-04-03 Robert Bachmann: I've replaced "SHOULD" with "MAY".
2006-04-24 Robert Bachmann: Maybe we could simplify my proposal to:
"Use the URI of the page; if the Feed has an "id" attribute, add that as a fragment to the page URI"
IMO this would be good enough for at least 80% of the cases.

Feed updated (atom:updated)

2006-04-01 raised by Robert Bachmann

atom:updated is required for atom:feed. Thus it should be available in hAtom to. I'm proposing the following rules:


$a = array();
for each $entry in $feed {
    if ($entry.updated)
$a.sort_by( datetime_to_utc($element) )
$feed_updated = $a[0];

* feed level = inside a Feed element but not inside an Entry element

Feed title (atom:title)

2006-04-01 raised by Robert Bachmann

atom:title is required for atom:feed. Thus it should be available in hAtom to.

I'm proposing the following rules:

2006-04-05 Robert Bachmann: Okay. Deleted "the first <h#> element in the Feed, or"
2006-04-12 User:DavidJanes Note also in support of this decision that many blogs use <h#> to encode the date for a group of postings
2006-04-12 Robert Bachmann: Sorry, this was a "copy & paste" mistake. Fixed now.

Feed author and Entry author (atom:author)

2006-04-01 raised by Robert Bachmann

I'm proposing the following rules for Feed author:

I'm proposing the following rules for entry author:

* feed level = inside a Feed element but not inside an Entry element

Robert Bachmann 2006-04-17: I replaced "the Feed is invalid hAtom" with "there is no Feed Author"

Entry XXX (atom:xxx)

Template section: if there is something clearly from an Atom Entry that you'd like in hAtom 0.2, use this section as a template and replicate it in place here. See the hAtom 0.1 section below for more details.

Entry id (atom:id)

2006-04-01 raised by Robert Bachmann

atom:id is required for atom:entry. Thus it should be available in hAtom to.

The Entry permalink should be used as the entry id.


author as an hcard is too much to require

The following 3 items were extracted from the conversation starting on irc with logs available starting around here

Other Questions and Issues

General comments, modeling issues, algorithm issues, should have issues, etc. go here.

Entry Updated Required? -- Blogger Issue

The hAtom 0.1 spec states if there is no Entry Updated element...the page is invalid hAtom I have a real problem with this because I work with Blogger, where we cannot output datetime-design-pattern-compatible datestrings for our posts... We can output some different human-readable formats and we can output a nanosecond unix-timestamp, but the template tags will not output YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS+ZZ:ZZ no matter what you do... so how are we to resolve this so that Blogger blogs can use hAtom? -- singpolyma 05:45, 28 Mar 2006 (PST)

hAtom 0.1

This section is more or less closed, as hAtom 0.1 is out the door. If there are open issues that you are championing that didn't make it into hAtom 0.1, move them up above to the hAtom 0.2 section

This page documents the issues that have been raised regarding the hAtom draft during the course of its development, and the resolutions of those issues (often with accompanying opinions).


Feed (atom:feed)

RyanKing: STATUS: RESOLVED - 'hfeed' and not required (a la hcalendar)

Initial proposal

atomfeed (or rather, "atom-entry")


The above proposal was not fully accepted and some other possibilities were proposed:


The feed is a root class name of hAtom, similar to "vcalendar" in hCalendar, thus it should be fairly unique, per the root class name naming-principles. - Tantek

Entry (atom:entry)

RyanKing: STATUS - RESOLVED - 'hentry'

Initial Proposal

atomentry (or rather, "atom-entry")


The above proposal was not fully accepted. Other alternatives:


Entry Title (atom:title)

RyanKing: STATUS - RESOLVED - going with 'entry-title, to be consistent with 'entry-content'


The title class is defined by hCard to mean "job title". Possible alternatives include (Please add to list):


Entry Content (atom:content)

STATUS - RESOLVED going with entry-content


Entry Summary (atom:summary)

STATUS - RESOLVED - going with 'entry-summary'

The summary class is defined by vCalendar, iCalendar, hCalendar, and also hReview, to mean "summary or title". Possible alternatives include (add to list):


Entry Permalink (atom:link)

STATUS - RESOLVED - 'bookmark'


Entry Published (atom:published)


Entry Updated (atom:updated)

STATUS - RESOLVED - 'updated'


go back throught blog-post-examples to see what conventions we have.

Entry Author (atom:author)

STATUS - RESOLVED - 'author' required, should use <address>


Entry Contributor (atom:contributor)


Entry Geo (geo:Point)

GeoRSS Resources

Questions and Comments


Relationship to hReview definitions needs clarification

[DavidJanes?] hAtom will define terminology for the general act of publication that overlaps with hReview's terminology for the specific act of publishing a review of something. The following terms could be pushed back into hReview:

Tantek: "Pushed back" is the wrong direction here.

The right direction is "re-use" by new proposals/drafts. If you see anything in hReview that appears to overlap this new specification, the first thing to do is to see if you can reuse those terms from hReview in this new specification, not vice versa.

In addition, "published" does not mean the same as "dtreviewed" (you might write a restaurant review just after you eat there, but not actually "publish" it until later). "reviewer" is also a more precise semantic than "author", thus the two should not be collapsed.


DavidJanes: Should hCards be required for the <address> of the Entry Poster? MAY, MUST, SHOULD? Your thoughts please.

RESOLVED: MUST use hCard for author.


This seems precisely analogous to S5:

I'm all for NOT boiling the ocean, but these really seem like the same cup of tea.

--Ernie Prabhakar

Repeated Elements

We allow certain elements to be repeated, such as Entry Permalink, Entry Published and Entry Title, even though there can be at most one real value. We provide "disambiguation" rules for sorting out which is the real value. See here, here, here and here.

Your thoughts please... -- David Janes

STATUS - RESOLVED. The spec has explicit rules for disambiguating all these items if they appear multiple times.


If you have concerns about opaqueness, that is, stopping interpretation below certain hAtom elements, raise them here.

Opaqueness of other microformat elements

How would we handle a case where someone wanted to provide a vcard under the class~=entry element for an individual who was neither author or contributor? Consider the hypothetical case where someone wanted to list their "muse" alongside article author and contributors. If this vcard included a title it might be included accidentally as an <atom:title>.

To summarise, Is it possible that other microformats found under the class~=entry or class~=feed elements need to be considered opaque?

-- BenjaminCarlyle

Opaqueness of summary and content

DavidJanes?: What one publisher considers the entry content may differ from another publisher's point of view. Is the content simply a div that does not contain any author/updated/published metadata etc, or could some of that metadata be relevant to the content as well as the entry? Consider updated. last-modified-brainstorming introduces an idea of using <ins> and <del> elements to indicate update time. Updates are also often included in entry content with further information. This suggests to me that the line of opaqueness is blurry.

Perhaps content and summary should not be opaque, and instead rely on the mfo proposal to avoid parsing into microformats below the content level. This approach would allow a single div to contain both "entry" and "content" classes should all metadata be considered content by the author, or would permit any other subset of the metadata to be considered content without repeating one's self.

Consider also the "read more"-style blog. The following nesting of div elements is illegal under current opacity rules: <div class="content"><div class="summary">...</div>...</div>

A further example is provided by _fil_ on #microformats, who uses the rel-tag microformat within his atom:content to be handled as tags in his feed reader.


The current spec under Schema:Nomenclature:Entry includes the text: "if practical, also define id="unique-identifier" to the Entry" What should be done with this id by parsers? How does this interact (if at all) with the interpretation of a rel=bookmark within the entry?

Also, how should a feed <id> element be filled out from a hAtom source document? Is a rel=bookmark at the feed level required?

The id elements in atom are supposed to survive all future movements of the blog to new hosting arrangements and the like. Are current feed URLs or even rel=bookmarks solid enough?


HTML Title

Atom permits title to be either plain text or html. hAtom2Atom.xsl currently uses a plain text translation, and some feed readers seem not to handle html titles well (liferea does not normalize-whitespace, for example). Should a hAtom title element become a plain text or a html atom title? If so, should a subset of html be passed through rather than all html (including id, etc)?


Should hAtom use rel-tag for atom category elements? -- DavidJanes

Excess disambiguation rules?

Disambiguation rules apply to feed and entry title, and hAtom2Atom.xsl implements these. Rules also apply to permalink, published, and updated. These are currently not implemented. If they appear multiple times in the source document they are repeated multiple times.

It is clear that the data relating to these fields may be repeated within a hAtom entry, however the class notation may not. Only one element need be marked with rel="bookmark". Only one need be marked published, and one updated. Should the disambiguation rules be removed and only one element be allowed for each value, or is there value to the publisher in marking different elements with the hAtom class names?



Does this specification depend on acceptance of a hAtom-compatible mfo? See mfo-examples.

Is atom:content necessary?

Atom's structure is built up around separating content and other metadata. atom:updated, atom:author, and the like are separate from atom:content any may contain repeated data. Microformats are built around bringing the content and the metadata back together. Is there are genuine use case for identifying only part of the atom entry as content? Presumably the whole html entry is fit for human consumption, or it wouldn't be part of a microformatted web page. Could that whole html snippet be used as the content?

Published as default value for atom:updated

It seems to be common practice to include an "updated" section within the main blog content to track updates to an atom:entry as they occur. It is less common to include a value for atom:published within atom:content. atom:published is usually provided by a machine, but atom:updated is often provided by a human.

I suggest that if a value of published exists but no value for updated exists that the required updated field be filled out from the optional published field. I think this would make changing the required value of updated easier for publishers. Also, several updates may occur to a single entry. I suggest that a disambiguation rule be applied such that the the latest timestamp of any updated field be used if several exist. The overal parser semantics would therefore be:

  1. If multiple updated fields exist, choose the most recent one.
  2. If only one updated field exists, choose that value.
  3. If no updated field exists but a published field exists, use the published value for atom:updated.
+ 1 Robert Bachmann

Designating the page author

(2006-02-07 raised by Robert Bachmann)

“[I]f an Entry has 0 Entry Author elements, the "logical Entry Author" is assumed to be the author of the XHTML page”

(2006-02-13 example by Chris Casciano) There is a live case showing this issue at http://chunkysoup.net - The posts are now hatom'd but since I am the only author the individual entries do not repeast the info with each entry. I do have an hcard with my (the page author's) information in the fotter of the page, but at the moment it is not designated via the <address> element due to sematics/content. FWIW, it is also outside of the block designated as the hfeed.


Entry Updated Required? -- Blogger

See Also


Please use this format (copy and paste this to the end of the list to add your issues):

hatom-issues was last modified: Wednesday, December 31st, 1969