[uf-discuss] Re: Citation format straw proposal on the wiki
Ryan Cannon
ryan at ryancannon.com
Thu Mar 30 06:55:05 PST 2006
I did a basic breakdown of MLA format for citations—I think this fits
well within the 80/20 scope. If this would be helpful, I can do
similar breakdowns of APA and Chicago style was well over the weekend:
MLA
===
author
vcard
book
book-title
chapter-title
editor
vcard
publisher
publisher-name
publisher-city
date
journal
journal-title
article-title
volume
number
date
pages
web-document
url
date-accessed
date-published
publisher-application // i.e. electronic database title
physical-location (adr?)
physical-object
medium
dimensions
other-info
Reprinted-in
// taken from the straw format on wiki
abstract
notes
keywords
image
copyright
rel-cite
--
Ryan Cannon
Interactive Developer
MSI Student, School of Information
University of Michigan
http://RyanCannon.com/
On 30 Mar 2006, at 8:48 AM, microformats-discuss-
request at microformats.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Citation format straw proposal on the wiki (Breton Slivka)
> 2. Re: seeking clarification w/r/to hCard and RFCs 2425/2426
> (Kevin Marks)
> 3. Re: Citation format straw proposal on the wiki (Ross Singer)
> 4. attention microformat (Nick Swan)
> 5. Re: Citation format straw proposal on the wiki (Scott Reynen)
> 6. Re: seeking clarification w/r/to hCard and RFCs 2425/2426
> (C. Hudley)
> 7. Re: Citation format straw proposal on the wiki (Tim White)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:47:30 -0700
> From: Breton Slivka <zen at zenpsycho.com>
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Citation format straw proposal on the wiki
> To: Microformats Discuss <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
> Message-ID: <B739F7A3-17CC-4711-BFDC-67772B30A0DE at zenpsycho.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> I suppose it's worth fleshing out what I mean by modularization a bit
> more, because I think it's all that's neccesary to infer type.
>
> Suppose we have a core citation format, such as Tim White shows,
> containing the following properties/classes. hCite
>
> Author (hcard)
> Title
> Date
> Collaborators
> Description
> Catalogue Number
>
> Then we have properties that are specific to books/journals
>
> Pages
> Volume
>
> If these properties are present, then we know that this item is
> probably not say.. a photo or a painting, and contains all the
> properties which allow it to be pased the same whether it's a book or
> a journal. Combine it with hCite and suddenly we have bookCite
>
>
> The properties specific to artwork might be:
>
> medium
> dimensions
>
> add them to hCite and we have artCite
>
> Then suppose we have properties specific to a photo
>
> Aperture
> Fstop
> Camera
>
> We add those to artCite and suddenly with have photoCite,
> demonstrated.
>
>
> <cite class="hcite">
> <p class "author fn">Ansel Adams</p>
> <span class="title">Siesta Lake</span>
> <span class="camera">8x10 view camera</span>
> <span class="medium">Gelatin Silver Print</span>
> </cite>
>
>
> From the presence of "camera" we can glean that this is an instance
> of photocite. But a generic parse can still glean the Author and
> Title properties. A domain specific parser has the extra data it
> needs for cataloguing, or whatever other task required. The domain
> specific parser could safely ignore hCites lacking any of the
> properties required for photoCite. Etc. etc.
>
> In short, one core format that everything can understand, with
> properties available for domain specific applications. The careful
> categorization and "branding" of each module helps to keep things
> simple for site authors.
>
> Basically I'm basing this off the "modularization of xhtml". For
> instance, most site authors only need the basic modules for xhtml.
> They have no need for something like the Ruby module. But there's a
> large portion of the audience that does, and when they need that,
> it's available as a module.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2006, at 7:17 PM, Tim White wrote:
>
>> Well, this is a lot to process at the end of the day. Here's just a
>> few
>> of my initial thoughts.
>>
>> First, and I've asked this before, what are we trying to do? For
>> me, I
>> just want a *simple* way to mark up books, be it a title, title &
>> author, or slightly more.
>>
>> We are NOT replacing OpenURL, etc.
>> We are NOT building library/scholarly citation records
>> (in my opinion)
>>
>> Those already exist and, as has been shown on the list, are very
>> complicated. They also serve a specialized audience and I don't think
>> reflect the 80/20 of general users.
>>
>> The format should be as simple as possible.
>>
>> As for type attributes (ie, class="book"), Bryan Suda and I had a
>> lengthy discussion a while ago about that. I too believed it was
>> necessary, but came to see that it is purely extraneous metadata.
>> Look
>> at a sample citation, something like:
>>
>> R. Buckminster Fuller. Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth, Pocket
>> Books, 1970, pp. 13, 14.
>>
>> No where does it tell you what this is. We infer (from the blog
>> post in
>> this case) that it is a book. Or, we look it up via Amazon or library
>> card catalog to find that it is a book.
>>
>> Think of hCard. For organizations do we include a type identifier?
>> I.e.: <span class="org webdevelopment">Webs - R - Us</span>.
>>
>> A simple format also makes the MF usable for more than books.
>> Works of
>> art have been mentioned. Just use the same layout:
>>
>> Edvard Munch. "The Scream", 1893.
>>
>> It still has a creator, title and date.
>>
>>
>> --- Alf Eaton <lists at hubmed.org> wrote:
>>
>>> OK, so a minimal microformat for a citation could look like this:
>>>
>>> <x class="citation [type]">
>>> <x class="title">Item title</x>
>>> <x class="creators"><hcards></x>
>>> <x class="container citation [type]"><hcitation for the
>>> container></x>
>>> <x class="pages">n-n</x> [and anything else specific to this
>>> particular type of citation]
>>> </x>
>>
>>
>> This seems to be on the right track; similar to what I had in mind.
>>
>> At work, we have need of a citation microformat and are going to be
>> using mark up like this for now:
>>
>>
>> <div class="citation">
>> <span class="articleTitle">"Accelerated Aging: Human Progeroid
>> Syndromes."</span>
>> <span class="author">Author Name</span>.
>> <span class="pubTitle">Encyclopedia of Aging</span>.
>> <span class="volume">Vol. 1.</span>
>> <span class="pubCity">New York:</span>
>> <span class="publisher">Macmillan Reference USA,</span>
>> <span class="pubYear">2002</span>.
>> </div>
>>
>> It's not perfect, but it fits our needs. Transforming that:
>>
>> <cite class="hcitation">
>> <span class="articleTitle">"Accelerated Aging: Human Progeroid
>> Syndromes."</span>
>> <span class="author vcard"><span class="fn">Author
>> Name</span></span>.
>> <span class="pubTitle">Encyclopedia of Aging</span>.
>> <span class="volume">Vol. 1.</span>
>> <div class="publisher vcard">
>> <span class="locality">New York:</span>
>> <span class="org fn">Macmillan Reference USA</span>,
>> <abbr class="dtpublished" title="2002">2002</abbr>.
>> </div>
>> </cite>
>>
>> I know it isn't perfect, but it's based on reusing existing MF,
>> and (I
>> hope)in keeping with the principles.
>>
>> (In looking back at it, wouldn't it be possible to do only on vCard,
>> perhaps way up in <cite>, that would encompass the author and
>> publisher? Those who know parsing (Brian S.) -- does that screw up
>> hCard parsing?)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ~ Tim
>>
>> <a href="http://www.tjameswhite.com">www.tjameswhite.com</a>
>>
>> <a href="http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?
>> q=affiliates&id=12227&t=1">Get Firefox!</a>
>>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:42:35 -0800
> From: Kevin Marks <kmarks at technorati.com>
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] seeking clarification w/r/to hCard and RFCs
> 2425/2426
> To: Microformats Discuss <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
> Message-ID: <64755d267713cc24f64ee2244d61745b at technorati.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 11:10 PM, C. Hudley wrote:
>> Like I said: things like protocols and data formats. Version and
>> revision numbers. Publication dates. Specification names and
>> standards organization references. Arbitrary names of
>> services-people-deliver that aren't standard in any way. Some of it
>> could fit into hCard but other parts would be an awkward fit at best.
>>
>> This would be in the context of service discovery: for some resource,
>> or for some organizational context, show me a directory of available
>> or relevant services. If you're familiar with OpenURL resolvers, I'm
>> thinking of something like their result screens, but bigger, and with
>> a usable design and the option to machine-parse reliably. Which
>> is to
>> say, not really like current OpenURL resolver result screens.
>
> Do you mean services and protocols in the computing sense?
> If so you should look into the DNS-SD specification for service
> discovery, as this is a deployed and working one that builds on DNS.
> Not really connected with microformats though.
>
> http://dns-sd.org
>
> (this is part of zeroconf, as popularized by Apple under the names
> Rendezvous and Bonjour)
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:15:55 -0500
> From: "Ross Singer" <ross.singer at library.gatech.edu>
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Citation format straw proposal on the wiki
> To: "Microformats Discuss" <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
> Message-ID:
> <23b83f160603292115x47cd23ddp2ec3a5ba67e0035e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On 3/29/06, Breton Slivka <zen at zenpsycho.com> wrote:
>
>> Then we have properties that are specific to books/journals
>>
>> Pages
>> Volume
>>
>> If these properties are present, then we know that this item is
>> probably not say.. a photo or a painting, and contains all the
>> properties which allow it to be pased the same whether it's a book or
>> a journal. Combine it with hCite and suddenly we have bookCite
>
>
> I just want to point out that ambiguity might not be bad for
> determining
> what an item isn't, but it's not good practice for determining what
> an item
> is.
>
> I am currently going through our 705k marc records trying to
> determine what
> each record actually is representing and if it's not explicitly set
> (which
> is sadly really only done with conference proceedings and journals) it
> becomes a guessing game as what these things really are. In my
> case, I can
> probably actually find the thing and determine what it is (although
> that
> won't scale, obviously), but a citation I might find on the web
> won't afford
> me that.
>
> Explicitly stating what an item is a much sounder approach.
>
> -Ross.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 11:51:12 +0100
> From: "Nick Swan" <nick.swan at gmail.com>
> Subject: [uf-discuss] attention microformat
> To: microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> Message-ID:
> <91762c2d0603300251k1b7649dy35b4315f75a6ee73 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
>
> first message to the emailing list after attending the microformats
> and
> structured blogging session with Marc Canter and Tantek at Mix06.
>
> I'm interested in using the attention microformat for an
> application I'm
> working on, and so am seeking clarification as to where this format
> currently is. Checking the wiki entries on the microformat page it
> seems as
> though initial discussions began, but didn't get much further:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/attention
>
> Checking on the Technorati wiki there is some more information and
> even a
> sample in microformat:
> http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/attentionxml
> sample:
> http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/AttentionSample
>
> Is this the format that people are currently using who are working on
> attention applications? We are keen to use a standard format so to
> allow
> people to move their attention data from one service to another, so
> would
> really appreciate any pointers
>
> Many thanks
> Nick Swan
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:12:49 -0600
> From: Scott Reynen <scott at randomchaos.com>
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Citation format straw proposal on the wiki
> To: Microformats Discuss <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
> Message-ID: <A9A71366-B138-4C1C-988A-01F8D6F14F43 at randomchaos.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> On Mar 29, 2006, at 11:15 PM, Ross Singer wrote:
>
>> Explicitly stating what an item is a much sounder approach.
>
> I agree. What if I want to cite a photograph and all I know about it
> is the photographer's name and the title of the photograph?
>
> Peace,
> Scott
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:40:05 -0500
> From: "C. Hudley" <chudley at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] seeking clarification w/r/to hCard and RFCs
> 2425/2426
> To: "Microformats Discuss" <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
> Message-ID:
> <e28976dd0603300540g58aa8525scc6ac4a828c0867d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 3/29/06, Kevin Marks <kmarks at technorati.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do you mean services and protocols in the computing sense?
>> If so you should look into the DNS-SD specification for service
>> discovery, as this is a deployed and working one that builds on DNS.
>
> That's what I've just been looking at. :)
>
> I'm experimenting with it and trying to determine where a good
> hand-off between the zeroconf layer and a web layer might be for
> suites of related (but functionally distinct) services mostly
> delivered over HTTP. Since DNS-level record keeping is rather more
> heavyweight than registering and updating web resources, I'm thinking
> a certain amount of restraint and stability on the DNS[-SD] side and
> more flexibility on the web side might be best.
>
> ...which led to wondering what the best way to mark up directories of
> computing services and protocols in [X]HTML might be.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 05:48:55 -0800 (PST)
> From: Tim White <tjameswhite at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Citation format straw proposal on the wiki
> To: Microformats Discuss <microformats-discuss at microformats.org>
> Message-ID: <20060330134855.26716.qmail at web30809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> --- Scott Reynen <scott at randomchaos.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 29, 2006, at 11:15 PM, Ross Singer wrote:
>>
>>> Explicitly stating what an item is a much sounder approach.
>>
>> I agree. What if I want to cite a photograph and all I know about it
>>
>> is the photographer's name and the title of the photograph?
>
> You cite the photographer's name and title of the photograph.
> <cite><span class="photographer">Ansel Adams</span>, <span
> class="title">Siesta Lake</span></cite>
>
> I understand the desire to capture "type" metadata - I wanted to
> include it for the longest time. But - from a microformats point of
> view - we have to keep two things in mind:
>
> 1) Humans first, machines second.
> This means keeping everything visible, not trapped in metadata. If you
> really want to note that it's a photo then include that:
>
> <cite>Photo <span class="title">Siesta Lake</span> by <span class="fn
> photography">Ansel Adams</span>.</cite>
>
> 2) "Adapted to current behaviors and usage patterns."
> Microformats are suppose to be modeled on what people are currently
> doing (80/20) on the web. I think of it in terms of the Everyman/
> woman.
> Capturing metadata isn't what is happening by the 80. Look at the
> examples collected on the wiki, very little metadata if any.
> (http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples -- look to the Implied
> Schema section)
>
> I think things like marc records, OpenURL, Bibtex, etc. are actually
> *too* specific for MF. If the library community needs something to
> replace the existing standards, it'd be great if it was based off of a
> microformat, but it shouldn't be the MF.
>
>
>
> ~ Tim
>
> <a href="http://www.tjameswhite.com">www.tjameswhite.com</a>
>
> <a href="http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?
> q=affiliates&id=12227&t=1">Get Firefox!</a>
>
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