category-brainstorming - Revision history

Tantek: /* issues */ rm cr

2009-09-01T23:48:06Z

issues: rm cr

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:48, 1 September 2009
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	== issues ==		== issues ==

	<div class="issues">		<div class="issues discussion">
	* I think the main implied use case here would be better researched, analyzed, and developed through the creation of:		* I think the main implied use case here would be better researched, analyzed, and developed through the creation of: [[localization-examples]], [[localization-formats]], [[localization-brainstorming]]. — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
	[[localization-examples]], [[localization-formats]], [[localization-brainstorming]]. — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
	</div>		</div>

Tantek: added a lot of feedback/commentary - mostly from IRC last night

2009-09-01T23:41:59Z

added a lot of feedback/commentary - mostly from IRC last night

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:41, 1 September 2009
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	In a loose form, supported language is a form of categorization, but it is useful to filter by language separately from other tags/categories (‘Only show me people that speak languages I speak’, ‘Only show applications available in my language’).		In a loose form, supported language is a form of categorization, but it is useful to filter by language separately from other tags/categories (‘Only show me people that speak languages I speak’, ‘Only show applications available in my language’).

			Localization vs. internationalization need to be distinguished. The term "language" is too abstract/vague/ambiguous in this context.

			=== examples of language publishing ===
	Language on the web are indicated in multiple forms on the web:		Language on the web are indicated in multiple forms on the web:

			'''Note:''' at least a live URL example for each of these would help make these examples appear less theoretical. — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
	* Names (e.g. ‘Français’, ‘Deutsch’, ‘English (British)’		* Names (e.g. ‘Français’, ‘Deutsch’, ‘English (British)’
	* Abbreviated local names ‘En’, ‘Fr’, ‘De’		* Abbreviated local names ‘En’, ‘Fr’, ‘De’
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	* ISO 639 language codes (e.g. 'en-gb', 'en', 'fr', 'de')		* ISO 639 language codes (e.g. 'en-gb', 'en', 'fr', 'de')

			=== existing formats for marking up language ===
	HTML already has a <code>lang</code> attribute for marking up actual content. This uses ISO 639 codes.		HTML already has a <code>lang</code> attribute for marking up actual content. This uses ISO 639 codes.


			=== brainstorm requirements ===
	Categorizing languages has the following requirements:		Categorizing languages has the following requirements:

	* Differentiate from other types of category		* Differentiate from other types of category
			** Why? Based on what use case(s) and what real world examples? — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
	* Allow the language to be presented in local name form		* Allow the language to be presented in local name form
			** Needs citing of real world examples that do so. — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
	* Allow the language itself to be ascertained reliably and interoperably		* Allow the language itself to be ascertained reliably and interoperably
			** Based on what use case for ascertaining? — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

	===Proposal 1: <code>class='category language'</code>===		===Proposal 1: <code>class='category language'</code>===

			<div class="discussion">
	* Use an additional class-name <code>language</code> to indicate that a category is marking up a supported language for the object.		* Use an additional class-name <code>language</code> to indicate that a category is marking up a supported language for the object.
			** See above re: localization vs. internationalization. This choice of term is too ambiguous and does not relate directly to a particular use case. — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
	* <code>class=language</code> also instructs parsers to read the ISO code from the <code>lang</code> attribute of the element, in place of the inner text, where present.		* <code>class=language</code> also instructs parsers to read the ISO code from the <code>lang</code> attribute of the element, in place of the inner text, where present.
			** Parsers are already reading the lang attribute of the element. — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
			** If you want a generic mechanism for pulling a microformat property value from the "lang" attribute of the element rather than the contents of the element, then it might be better to follow the pattern set by the [[value-class-pattern]]'s "value-title" and introduce a term like "value-lang". — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
			</div>

	e.g.		e.g.
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	In HTML, the strings ''should'' be marked up with a lang attribute to ensure that the local named languages are pronounced correctly by screen readers (for example).		In HTML, the strings ''should'' be marked up with a lang attribute to ensure that the local named languages are pronounced correctly by screen readers (for example).

	With rel-tag:		With [[rel-tag]]:

	<source lang=html4strict>		<source lang=html4strict>
Line 65:		Line 80:
	--[[User:BenWard\|BenWard]] 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)		--[[User:BenWard\|BenWard]] 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

	= Questions =		== Questions ==
	* [[User:JonathanMalek\|JonathanMalek]] 15:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC): I've been looking for ways to express more information about a particular category. For instance, when categorizing a particular [[hAtom]] entry as "about Los Angeles, CA", it would be helpful to also mark up that particular rel-tag with the geo data for LA. Do you see this <code>category</code> proposal as a way to support richer tags?		* [[User:JonathanMalek\|JonathanMalek]] 15:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC): I've been looking for ways to express more information about a particular category. For instance, when categorizing a particular [[hAtom]] entry as "about Los Angeles, CA", it would be helpful to also mark up that particular rel-tag with the geo data for LA. Do you see this <code>category</code> proposal as a way to support richer tags?

			== issues ==

			<div class="issues">
			* I think the main implied use case here would be better researched, analyzed, and developed through the creation of:
			[[localization-examples]], [[localization-formats]], [[localization-brainstorming]]. — [[User:Tantek\|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
			</div>

			== see also ==
			* [[hCard]]
			* [[rel-tag]]

JonathanMalek: can this be used to express richer information about a particular category/rel-tag?

2009-09-01T15:19:28Z

can this be used to express richer information about a particular category/rel-tag?

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:19, 1 September 2009
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	In this case, the URL scheme is shown to also use ISO codes. This may not be the case in production environments (they may choose to use <code>/apps/lang/english</code>, for example), so parsers look explicitly for language information should be instructed to again look for for the <code>lang</code> attribute where rel-tag is used in combination with class-language.		In this case, the URL scheme is shown to also use ISO codes. This may not be the case in production environments (they may choose to use <code>/apps/lang/english</code>, for example), so parsers look explicitly for language information should be instructed to again look for for the <code>lang</code> attribute where rel-tag is used in combination with class-language.
	--[[User:BenWard\|BenWard]] 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)		--[[User:BenWard\|BenWard]] 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

			= Questions =
			* [[User:JonathanMalek\|JonathanMalek]] 15:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC): I've been looking for ways to express more information about a particular category. For instance, when categorizing a particular [[hAtom]] entry as "about Los Angeles, CA", it would be helpful to also mark up that particular rel-tag with the geo data for LA. Do you see this <code>category</code> proposal as a way to support richer tags?

BenWard: New brainstorming around the area of object categorization. Proposal for identifying/parsing language categories

2009-09-01T01:16:27Z

New brainstorming around the area of object categorization. Proposal for identifying/parsing language categories

New page

<code>category</code> is a field used in many microformats, originally taken from [[hCard]].

<blockquote>Type name: CATEGORIES
Type purpose: To specify application category information about the vCard.</blockquote>
— <cite>[http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt RFC2426]</cite>

It is closely related to [[rel-tag]], but has no dependency on URL schemes, it simply marks up the inner-text as a category keyword.

Brainstorming on this page may be applicable to parsing of <code>category</code> and/or [[rel-tag]].

__TOC__

==Supported Languages==

An object — a person, or item (in a [[hProduct]] or [[hListing]] context) — may be consumable in multiple languages. A person may communicate in multiple languages, a set of self-assembly shelves may come with an instruction manual in multiple languages, a web application (also a product) can be localized to support use in multiple languages.

In a loose form, supported language is a form of categorization, but it is useful to filter by language separately from other tags/categories (‘Only show me people that speak languages I speak’, ‘Only show applications available in my language’).

Language on the web are indicated in multiple forms on the web:

* Names (e.g. ‘Français’, ‘Deutsch’, ‘English (British)’
* Abbreviated local names ‘En’, ‘Fr’, ‘De’
* Abbreviated country names: ‘GB’, ‘UK’, ‘ES’
* ''Local'' names (e.g. ‘French’, ‘German’, ‘British English’, ‘Dutch’)
* ISO 639 language codes (e.g. 'en-gb', 'en', 'fr', 'de')

HTML already has a <code>lang</code> attribute for marking up actual content. This uses ISO 639 codes.

Categorizing languages has the following requirements:

* Differentiate from other types of category
* Allow the language to be presented in local name form
* Allow the language itself to be ascertained reliably and interoperably

===Proposal 1: <code>class='category language'</code>===

* Use an additional class-name <code>language</code> to indicate that a category is marking up a supported language for the object.
* <code>class=language</code> also instructs parsers to read the ISO code from the <code>lang</code> attribute of the element, in place of the inner text, where present.

e.g.

<source lang=html4strict>
<ul>
<li class="category language" lang="en-gb">English (British)</li>
<li class="category language" lang="en">English (American)</li>
<li class="category language" lang="fr">Français</li>
<li class="category language" lang="de">Deutsch</li>
</ul>
</source>

In HTML, the strings ''should'' be marked up with a lang attribute to ensure that the local named languages are pronounced correctly by screen readers (for example).

With rel-tag:

<source lang=html4strict>
<ul>
<li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/en' lang='en'>English</a></li>
<li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/en-gb' lang='en-gb'>English (British)</a></li>
<li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/fr' lang='fr'>Français</a></li>
<li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/de' lang='de'>Deutsch</a></li>
</ul>
</source>

In this case, the URL scheme is shown to also use ISO codes. This may not be the case in production environments (they may choose to use <code>/apps/lang/english</code>, for example), so parsers look explicitly for language information should be instructed to again look for for the <code>lang</code> attribute where rel-tag is used in combination with class-language.
--[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)