distributed-conversation-brainstorming - Revision history

Tantek: Reverted edits by Niuhaibiao (Talk) to last version by Tantek

2010-01-14T23:09:35Z

Reverted edits by Niuhaibiao (Talk) to last version by Tantek

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:09, 14 January 2010
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	::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben\|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)		::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben\|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

	:I have a related problem that may shed some ~~[http://www.skldintl.com solar garden~~ light] on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen		:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

	== Nested cite/anchor tags ==		== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

Niuhaibiao: /* Problem */

2010-01-14T06:30:29Z

Problem

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:30, 14 January 2010
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	::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben\|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)		::This illustrates the difference between types of citations. C quoting A's text found on B's blog. C would use a reply or forward type citation when referencing A's text and would add a via type citation when mentioning his source, B. --[[User:EranGloben\|EranGloben]] 13:41, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

	:I have a related problem that may shed some light on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen		:I have a related problem that may shed some [http://www.skldintl.com solar garden light] on this one. I came to this page because I was just looking at a scientific journal citation and thought "that could be a microformat." There are already standard formats for citations of all sorts, including websites (e.g. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html Modern Language Association]), so maybe converting these into microformats would solve the problem stated here, and more. -- Scott Reynen

	== Nested cite/anchor tags ==		== Nested cite/anchor tags ==

Tantek: Reverted edit of DhnBxn, changed back to last version by EranGloben

2007-04-23T18:19:08Z

Reverted edit of DhnBxn, changed back to last version by EranGloben

Show changes

DhnBxn at 03:58, 23 April 2007

2007-04-23T03:58:03Z

Show changes

EranGloben: /* Moving Forward - added resolution

2006-02-21T00:51:57Z

/* Moving Forward - added resolution

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:51, 21 February 2006
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	'''Discussion'''		'''Discussion'''

	Option 1 is based on Tantek’s suggestion in [http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ The Elements of Meaningful XHTML] and was reached at independently by Ryan King (see [[distributed-conversation-examples\| examples page]]). It seems to imply that the current document is citing the entirty of the linked document.		Option 1 is based on Tantek’s suggestion in [http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ The Elements of Meaningful XHTML] and was reached at independently by Ryan King (see [[distributed-conversation-examples\| examples page]]). It seems to imply that the current document is citing the entirty of the linked document.

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	* Given the existence of the CITE element it seems that the cite rel value is redundant although it appears that it will become a part of upcoming standards.		* Given the existence of the CITE element it seems that the cite rel value is redundant although it appears that it will become a part of upcoming standards.
	* Another problem with this format is that the cite and via values are not specific enough. Using this format in a more precise manner will require using non-standard rel values.		* Another problem with this format is that the cite and via values are not specific enough. Using this format in a more precise manner will require using non-standard rel values.

			'''Current Resolution'''

			After discussion the above options were converged into the following syntax:

			<cite id="$cite.id$" class="$relationship$"><a href="$source.url$">source title</a></cite>
			<blockquote cite="#$cite.id$">
			Quoted text
			</blockquote>

			The use of the cite attribute connectes the blockquote (or quote) element with the appropriate cite. Use of this feature is optional.

	==Additional Resources==		==Additional Resources==

EranGloben: fixed link

2006-01-31T01:19:04Z

fixed link

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:19, 31 January 2006
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	'''Discussion'''		'''Discussion'''
	Option 1 is based on Tantek’s suggestion in [http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ The Elements of Meaningful XHTML] and was reached at independently by Ryan King (see [[distributed-~~converation~~-examples\| examples page]). It seems to imply that the current document is citing the entirty of the linked document.		Option 1 is based on Tantek’s suggestion in [http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ The Elements of Meaningful XHTML] and was reached at independently by Ryan King (see [[distributed-conversation-examples\| examples page]]). It seems to imply that the current document is citing the entirty of the linked document.

	Option 2a is based on existing and emerging HTML standards and some existing patterns of use. To make the relationship explicit, the class attribute is used but this can be replaced by a rel/rev attribute as soon as one is introduced in quote elements. This option is currently problematic as no user agent I am aware of properly exposes the value of the cite attribute to the user.		Option 2a is based on existing and emerging HTML standards and some existing patterns of use. To make the relationship explicit, the class attribute is used but this can be replaced by a rel/rev attribute as soon as one is introduced in quote elements. This option is currently problematic as no user agent I am aware of properly exposes the value of the cite attribute to the user.

EranGloben: trying to move forward

2006-01-31T01:16:27Z

trying to move forward

@@ Line 97: / Line 97: @@
 * A blog entry refers to the author of an entry or presentation using the author's homepage url, then talks about the entry or presentation. eg "For my Internet Systems Research class last night, we had &lt;a href="...">Tantek Çelik&lt;/a> come speak on microformats" [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ Ryan King]
 * A blog provides a blog-roll, or "recent bookmarks" panel
 ==Additional Resources==

EranGloben: /* Additional Resources */

2006-01-24T01:44:10Z

Additional Resources

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:44, 24 January 2006
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	** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.		** Article-Updates - Only in Usenet News, similar to "Supersedes:" but does not cause the referenced article to be physically deleted.
	** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.		** Article-Names - Reference to specially important articles for a particular Usenet Newsgroup.
	** Try Googling around "IBIS" (Issue-Based Information Systems), it's an approach to collaborative problem solving that looks very like discussion threads, see also [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage BlueOxen Wiki], [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MailingLists BlueOxen Mailing Lists]		* Try Googling around "IBIS" (Issue-Based Information Systems), it's an approach to collaborative problem solving that looks very like discussion threads, see also [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage BlueOxen Wiki], [http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MailingLists BlueOxen Mailing Lists]

Tantek at 08:46, 23 January 2006

2006-01-23T08:46:49Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:46, 23 January 2006
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	=citeRel brainstorming=		=citeRel brainstorming=
	Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:		Various parties have proposed microformats related to citations and distributed online conversations. Ryan King and Eran Globen started with hVia (which became citeVia and later citeRel :-)). You can see the conversation in these blog posts:

	People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).		People already cite their sources in their blog posts and it would be great (and shouldn't be too difficult) to track that information. In that vein, read [http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/06/hvia/ this post] which covers the initial thinking on the topic. ([http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/citevia/ This] was a followup post).
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	[[distributed-conversation-examples]]		[[distributed-conversation-examples]]

			== Note for general text citations ==

			This page is all about hyperlink citations, either explicity through the use of an <code><a href></code> or a mostly hidden "cite" attribute on the <code><blockquote></code> and <code><q></code> elements.

			For general text citations, please take a look at:
			* [[cite-examples]], [[cite-formats]], [[cite-brainstorming]]

	==Problem==		==Problem==

Tantek: agreed with Andy

2006-01-23T08:39:38Z

agreed with Andy

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:39, 23 January 2006
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	:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>		:::[http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/ XHTML 2.0] states that it "should in no way be considered stable, and should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever." <cite>Andy Skelton</cite>

			:::: That is a very good point Andy. Thus we should define rel-cite compatibly, and then give attribution and informatively reference XHTML2. <cite>Tantek</cite>

	:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>		:There is a related problem which is not exactly the same. Let's say that you have a bit of microformatted data which implies an assertion, and the asserter is the containing page. For example a relTag might have semantic value like "I claim that this object is a FOO." When that assertion is copied over to a new page, the identity of the asserter has to be made explicit: "according to the original containing page at BAR, this object is a FOO." Now let's say somebody copies over the copy. This might happen if there was a B-lister who had an entry picked up by an A-lister, and the A-lister's entry was then copied by a vast number of C-listers. (That's a typical pattern for data diffusion). For the data to keep its integrity, the source of the citation would always have to be the original containing page (the B-lister) rather than the containing page that the copy was fetched from (the A-lister). <cite>Lucas Gonze</cite>