category-brainstorming: Difference between revisions

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In a loose form, supported language is a form of categorization, but it is useful to filter by language separately from other tags/categories (‘Only show me people that speak languages I speak’, ‘Only show applications available in my language’).
In a loose form, supported language is a form of categorization, but it is useful to filter by language separately from other tags/categories (‘Only show me people that speak languages I speak’, ‘Only show applications available in my language’).


Localization vs. internationalization need to be distinguished.  The term "language" is too abstract/vague/ambiguous in this context.
=== examples of language publishing ===
Language on the web are indicated in multiple forms on the web:
Language on the web are indicated in multiple forms on the web:


'''Note:''' at least a  live URL example for each of these would help make these examples appear less theoretical. — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
* Names (e.g. ‘Français’, ‘Deutsch’, ‘English (British)’
* Names (e.g. ‘Français’, ‘Deutsch’, ‘English (British)’
* Abbreviated local names ‘En’, ‘Fr’, ‘De’
* Abbreviated local names ‘En’, ‘Fr’, ‘De’
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* ISO 639 language codes (e.g. 'en-gb', 'en', 'fr', 'de')
* ISO 639 language codes (e.g. 'en-gb', 'en', 'fr', 'de')


=== existing formats for marking up language ===
HTML already has a <code>lang</code> attribute for marking up actual content. This uses ISO 639 codes.
HTML already has a <code>lang</code> attribute for marking up actual content. This uses ISO 639 codes.


=== brainstorm requirements ===
Categorizing languages has the following requirements:
Categorizing languages has the following requirements:


* Differentiate from other types of category
* Differentiate from other types of category
** Why? Based on what use case(s) and what real world examples? — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
* Allow the language to be presented in local name form
* Allow the language to be presented in local name form
** Needs citing of real world examples that do so. — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
* Allow the language itself to be ascertained reliably and interoperably
* Allow the language itself to be ascertained reliably and interoperably
** Based on what use case for ascertaining? — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


===Proposal 1: <code>class='category language'</code>===
===Proposal 1: <code>class='category language'</code>===


<div class="discussion">
* Use an additional class-name <code>language</code> to indicate that a category is marking up a supported language for the object.
* Use an additional class-name <code>language</code> to indicate that a category is marking up a supported language for the object.
** See above re: localization vs. internationalization. This choice of term is too ambiguous and does not relate directly to a particular use case. — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
* <code>class=language</code> also instructs parsers to read the ISO code from the <code>lang</code> attribute of the element, in place of the inner text, where present.
* <code>class=language</code> also instructs parsers to read the ISO code from the <code>lang</code> attribute of the element, in place of the inner text, where present.
** Parsers are *already* reading the lang attribute of the element. — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
** If you want a generic mechanism for pulling a microformat property value from the "lang" attribute of the element rather than the contents of the element, then it might be better to follow the pattern set by the [[value-class-pattern]]'s "value-title" and introduce a term like "value-lang". — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
</div>


e.g.
e.g.
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In HTML, the strings ''should'' be marked up with a lang attribute to ensure that the local named languages are pronounced correctly by screen readers (for example).
In HTML, the strings ''should'' be marked up with a lang attribute to ensure that the local named languages are pronounced correctly by screen readers (for example).


With rel-tag:
With [[rel-tag]]:


<source lang=html4strict>
<source lang=html4strict>
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--[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
--[[User:BenWard|BenWard]] 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


= Questions =
== Questions ==
* [[User:JonathanMalek|JonathanMalek]] 15:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC): I've been looking for ways to express more information about a particular category.  For instance, when categorizing a particular [[hAtom]] entry as "about Los Angeles, CA", it would be helpful to also mark up that particular rel-tag with the geo data for LA.  Do you see this <code>category</code> proposal as a way to support richer tags?
* [[User:JonathanMalek|JonathanMalek]] 15:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC): I've been looking for ways to express more information about a particular category.  For instance, when categorizing a particular [[hAtom]] entry as "about Los Angeles, CA", it would be helpful to also mark up that particular rel-tag with the geo data for LA.  Do you see this <code>category</code> proposal as a way to support richer tags?
== issues ==
<div class="issues discussion">
* I think the main implied use case here would be better researched, analyzed, and developed through the creation of: [[localization-examples]], [[localization-formats]], [[localization-brainstorming]]. — [[User:Tantek|Tantek]] 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
</div>
== see also ==
* [[hCard]]
* [[rel-tag]]

Latest revision as of 23:48, 1 September 2009

category is a field used in many microformats, originally taken from hCard.

Type name: CATEGORIES Type purpose: To specify application category information about the vCard.

— RFC2426

It is closely related to rel-tag, but has no dependency on URL schemes, it simply marks up the inner-text as a category keyword.

Brainstorming on this page may be applicable to parsing of category and/or rel-tag.

Supported Languages

An object — a person, or item (in a hProduct or hListing context) — may be consumable in multiple languages. A person may communicate in multiple languages, a set of self-assembly shelves may come with an instruction manual in multiple languages, a web application (also a product) can be localized to support use in multiple languages.

In a loose form, supported language is a form of categorization, but it is useful to filter by language separately from other tags/categories (‘Only show me people that speak languages I speak’, ‘Only show applications available in my language’).

Localization vs. internationalization need to be distinguished. The term "language" is too abstract/vague/ambiguous in this context.

examples of language publishing

Language on the web are indicated in multiple forms on the web:

Note: at least a live URL example for each of these would help make these examples appear less theoretical. — Tantek 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

  • Names (e.g. ‘Français’, ‘Deutsch’, ‘English (British)’
  • Abbreviated local names ‘En’, ‘Fr’, ‘De’
  • Abbreviated country names: ‘GB’, ‘UK’, ‘ES’
  • Local names (e.g. ‘French’, ‘German’, ‘British English’, ‘Dutch’)
  • ISO 639 language codes (e.g. 'en-gb', 'en', 'fr', 'de')

existing formats for marking up language

HTML already has a lang attribute for marking up actual content. This uses ISO 639 codes.


brainstorm requirements

Categorizing languages has the following requirements:

  • Differentiate from other types of category
    • Why? Based on what use case(s) and what real world examples? — Tantek 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Allow the language to be presented in local name form
    • Needs citing of real world examples that do so. — Tantek 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Allow the language itself to be ascertained reliably and interoperably
    • Based on what use case for ascertaining? — Tantek 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposal 1: class='category language'

  • Use an additional class-name language to indicate that a category is marking up a supported language for the object.
    • See above re: localization vs. internationalization. This choice of term is too ambiguous and does not relate directly to a particular use case. — Tantek 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • class=language also instructs parsers to read the ISO code from the lang attribute of the element, in place of the inner text, where present.
    • Parsers are *already* reading the lang attribute of the element. — Tantek 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
    • If you want a generic mechanism for pulling a microformat property value from the "lang" attribute of the element rather than the contents of the element, then it might be better to follow the pattern set by the value-class-pattern's "value-title" and introduce a term like "value-lang". — Tantek 23:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

e.g.

<ul>
    <li class="category language" lang="en-gb">English (British)</li>
    <li class="category language" lang="en">English (American)</li>
    <li class="category language" lang="fr">Français</li>
    <li class="category language" lang="de">Deutsch</li>
</ul>

In HTML, the strings should be marked up with a lang attribute to ensure that the local named languages are pronounced correctly by screen readers (for example).

With rel-tag:

<ul>
    <li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/en' lang='en'>English</a></li>
    <li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/en-gb' lang='en-gb'>English (British)</a></li>
    <li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/fr' lang='fr'>Français</a></li>
    <li><a class='language' rel='tag' href='/apps/lang/de' lang='de'>Deutsch</a></li>
</ul>

In this case, the URL scheme is shown to also use ISO codes. This may not be the case in production environments (they may choose to use /apps/lang/english, for example), so parsers look explicitly for language information should be instructed to again look for for the lang attribute where rel-tag is used in combination with class-language. --BenWard 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Questions

  • JonathanMalek 15:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC): I've been looking for ways to express more information about a particular category. For instance, when categorizing a particular hAtom entry as "about Los Angeles, CA", it would be helpful to also mark up that particular rel-tag with the geo data for LA. Do you see this category proposal as a way to support richer tags?

issues

see also