[uf-discuss] hThing microformat ... or design pattern

Thu Nov 16 14:40:24 PST 2006

I've opened up a wikipage [1] to capture this discussion. I'll punch
in some examples soon also.

Regards, etc...

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/items-brainstorming

On 11/16/06, David Janes <davidjanes at blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> Exactly my thoughts, except for the torn part.
>
> My thinking, which is probably non-representative of the group, is
> that if (1) something is being widely done on the web and (2) there is
> really meaning there, then there's probably value in having a
> microformat there to represent it, even if the applications are not
> apparent yet. That's not to say "go willy-nilly uFing everything"; the
> rigor required for the process pretty well ensures this won't happen
> anyway.
>
> Regards, etc...
>
> On 11/16/06, James Darling <james at abscond.org> wrote:
> > I think to a certain extent, just marking an item as an item could be
> > quite powerful, enabling you to easily see that this is a thing, it
> > is owned by this hcard, it is for sale at this price and these are
> > several reviews of it. These are the thoughts that tempt me. Although
> > I'm still torn.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On 16 Nov 2006, at 16:36, David Janes wrote:
> >
> > > I certainly appreciate the #2 concern and I'll have a look at what
> > > they did in #1. My thought is not to universally capture all
> > > attributibutes of thingyness, but rather a few key concepts that are
> > > more or less already in use, particularly in microformats (i.e. fn,
> > > photo, url; also adr and geo).
> > >
> > > This is why in my original post of this subject I mentioned this might
> > > just be a design pattern (which it seems certainly to be) that things
> > > like hWine would be built upon. However, having it as an explicit
> > > microformat may lead to better reuse of concepts as "niche"
> > > microformats are built.
> > >
> > > Regards, etc...
> > >
> > > On 11/16/06, Brian Suda <brian.suda at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I would voice a few worries...
> > >>
> > >> 1) Dublin Core spent YEARS looking at metadata about 'things' and
> > >> they
> > >> narrowed things down to a handful of properties. It has been
> > >> brought-up before to possibly model DC terms.
> > >>
> > >> 2) when you look for 'real-world' examples you will find "things"
> > >> everywhere. There are no shortage of "things"/"items" on the
> > >> internet,
> > >> and while it would be great to model them, it is almost back to the
> > >> "boiling the oceans" senario. I'd suggest a more narrow topic than
> > >> "things" or "items" - otherwise i'd bet you'd spent alot more than
> > >> "tens of hours" on the project.
> > >>
> > >> -brian
> > >>
> > >> On 11/16/06, David Janes <davidjanes at blogmatrix.com> wrote:
> > >> > Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
> > >> > -brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in
> > >> the
> > >> > project if people think it's semi-stupid or "we consider that
> > >> but then
> > >> > we figured out it was a bad idea".
> > >> >
> > >> > hItem is probably a better name indeed.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards, etc...
> > >> > David
> > >> >
> > >> > On 11/14/06, James Darling <james at abscond.org> wrote:
> > >> > > I have been having such thoughts, although I had hItem in my
> > >> mind.
> > >> > > I pretty much had the same justifications in my head as David has
> > >> > > laid out. I was also thinking I wasn't sure much more base was
> > >> > > covered by this then hListing and hReview, as selling and
> > >> reviewing
> > >> > > are, from what I can think of right now, are the only two things
> > >> > > you'd do with an item description on the internet.
> > >> > > On the other hand, it does seem nice in my head to mark
> > >> something as
> > >> > > an item first, and then add reviews or prices or hcards onto that
> > >> > > item, linking them together. But maybe it's just a weird desire
> > >> > > rather than an actually helpful thing.
> > >> > > So this is basically saying I've had the same kind of
> > >> thoughts, but I
> > >> > > personally hadn't come to a conclusion about it.
> > >> > > What are other's thoughts? (I have googled, but I would not be
> > >> > > surprised to be told this has all been discussed before, in which
> > >> > > case, any links to a justification against?)
> > >> > >
> > >> > > James
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > I'd like to broach the topic of a "thing" microformat (or
> > >> design
> > >> > > > pattern). I don't believe this is a "boiling the ocean" type
> > >> of topic
> > >> > > > and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it
> > >> would be
> > >> > > > used
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (1) This would be a simple container "hthing" with all the
> > >> elements
> > >> > > > from vCard that would make sense -- fn, url and photo in
> > >> particular;
> > >> > > > geo and adr also for things that are in a particular place.
> > >> I.e. this
> > >> > > > proposal is fully based on hCard
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (2) This would be the basis for future "thing" microformats.
> > >> For
> > >> > > > example, this morning a "wine" microformat was proposed. If
> > >> there was
> > >> > > > a hThing microformat, there would be a solid basis for just
> > >> extending
> > >> > > > that with information specific to the wine world; likewise,
> > >> one could
> > >> > > > see this being of great use for making car microformats or
> > >> housing
> > >> > > > microformats that would be used with hListing [1].
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (3) This would fit nicely into existing microformats and may
> > >> even be
> > >> > > > an improvement. For example, in hReview [2] there's an explicit
> > >> > > > container for the people and places being reviewed, but not for
> > >> > > > things. By having such a container, we ensure that
> > >> attributes of the
> > >> > > > thing being reviewed associate with the thing rather than
> > >> the review
> > >> > > > (that is, a car being reviewed has 4-wheel drive, not the
> > >> review has 4
> > >> > > > wheel drive; although this is obvious to us it may not be
> > >> obvious to a
> > >> > > > machine reader)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (4) This may just be a design pattern -- that is, a template
> > >> for
> > >> > > > create new microformats in the future. We do see this
> > >> pattern in use
> > >> > > > in several places, including the microformats mentioned above.
> > >> > > > However, I would argue that there's a real benefit for today's
> > >> > > > parser's knowing there's a thing there, if if future
> > >> progress means
> > >> > > > the parser doesn't know what all the attributes are (just
> > >> the  most
> > >> > > > important ones)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (5) If it is a microformat, how we identify the type of
> > >> thing is an
> > >> > > > open question -- we could do it like phone number types in
> > >> hCard or it
> > >> > > > could be a new class element (or both). The type option is nice
> > >> > > > because it means we can cover a lot of ground without
> > >> creating new
> > >> > > > microformats.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > (6) There's obviously lots of things that could be added to
> > >> a hThing
> > >> > > > microformat that are reusable across many types of things (just
> > >> > > > sketching here):
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > <span class="hthing">
> > >> > > > <span class="fn">
> > >> > > > <span class="company">Rosemount Estates</a>
> > >> > > > <span class="product">Diamond Label</a>
> > >> > > > <span class="generic">Cabernet Sauvignon</a>
> > >> > > > (<span class="type">wine</span>)
> > >> > > > </span>
> > >> > > > </span>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > <span class="hthing">
> > >> > > > <span class="fn">
> > >> > > > <span class="company">Mazda</a>
> > >> > > > <span class="product">Tribute</a>
> > >> > > > <span class="generic">SUV</a>
> > >> > > > (<span class="type">automobile</span>)
> > >> > > > </span>
> > >> > > > </span>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Regards, etc...
> > >> > > > David
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
> > >> > > > [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
> > >> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> > > > microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> > >> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >> > >
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> > > microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> > >> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > David Janes
> > >> > Founder, BlogMatrix
> > >> > http://www.blogmatrix.com
> > >> > http://www.onamine.com
> > >> > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> > microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> > >> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> brian suda
> > >> http://suda.co.uk
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> microformats-discuss mailing list
> > >> microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> > >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > David Janes
> > > Founder, BlogMatrix
> > > http://www.blogmatrix.com
> > > http://www.onamine.com
> > > http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > microformats-discuss at microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> David Janes
> Founder, BlogMatrix
> http://www.blogmatrix.com
> http://www.onamine.com
> http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
>

-- 
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com