More grouping discussion, was: Re: [uf-new] First draft of hAudio proposal

Martin McEvoy martin at
Fri May 4 11:38:45 PDT 2007

On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 12:40 -0400, Rudy Desjardins wrote:
> On 5/4/07, Martin McEvoy <martin at> wrote:
>         <ol class="haudio">
>                 <li class="work-title"><a  class="acquire"
>         href="">download page 1</a></li> 
>                         <li class="work-title"><a  class="acquire"
>         href="">download page 2</a></li>
>                                 <li
>         class="work-title"><a  class="acquire"
>         href="">download page 3</a></li> 
>                 </ol>
>         <ol>  is my shelf
>         <li>   Are my books on a shelf.
>         another one
>         <div class="haudio">
>                 <p class="work-title"><a  class="acquire" 
>         href="">download page 1</a></p>
>                         <p class="work-title"><a  class="acquire"
>         href="">download page 2</a></p>
>                                 <p
>         class="work-title"><a  class="acquire"
>         href="">download page 3</a></p>
>                 </div>
>         <div>  is my shelf
>         <p>   Are my books on a shelf. 
> It seems like some people are still missing/ignoring a few key points
> with regards to the problem(s) which some kind of a grouping or
> collection pattern are intended to address:
> 1) There exists a need to express a grouping relationship for data
> which is sparse. Please see the grouping-examples and
> grouping-brainstorming wiki pages for descriptions of these types of
> data sets. 
> 2) There exists a need to express an N-N grouping relationship, as
> opposed to simply 1-N which is all a heirarchical structure implicitly
> allows.

Hi Rudy thanks for your comments 
I have examined all the grouping-examples and what there is of the

the first thing I noticed was that all the examples made an attempt at
Lists some times numbered sometimes not most are either using tables or
lists to do this others are using p's and div's they are all grouping
these items using a container of some type

in the first example I use 

<ol class="haudio"> to say this is my outline or grouping, the contents
are haudio. 

<li> is my content. 

From a human perspective need it go further than that?

2) There exists a need to express an N-N grouping relationship

sorry if i seem a bit dumb but why? none of the examples to me show any
need for this particular.

your album.title class, namespace whatever you call it simply doesn't do
this, all "." does is create an empty space or a stop or end not hey
there is a relationship here.

and may I add have you actually read this

> Although a highly elegant solution, 

Simple and easy to understand

> letting existing heirarchical markup alone define the containing and
> contained elements of a collection unfortunately does not address
> these two base problems, and I believe at this point there's a general
> consensus on these two problems being part of the problem space we're
> trying to solve with the grouping 'pattern', although additional
> real-world examples are still being compiled and analyzed to support
> this fact. 

and when the real world examples are compiled both you and I shall both
have more of an understanding of what we are talking about because at
the moment all this is relating to is audio, when it includes Video
which is a massive field on its own and would at least require grouping
of un related directors or films, and Images that will require groupings
of peoples own personal collections or artists by Renaissance or style,
you then have to think of a more inclusive design pattern yes?

> --
> Rudy X. Desjardins
> Programmer
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