[uf-new] an equation/MathML/TeX microformat?

Fri Oct 26 12:40:36 PDT 2007

Alt text is a common way to associate some sort of metadata with an
image. However,  as the HTML4 reference you give states,

"... alternate text to serve as content when the element cannot be
rendered normally. Specifying alternate text assists users without
graphic display terminals, users whose browsers don't support forms,
visually impaired users, those who use speech synthesizers, those who
have configured their graphical user agents not to display images, etc."

I think it is pretty clear that those that see or hear alt text for an
equation do not want to see or hear its MathML representation. There are
a few people that wouldn't mind a TeX representation but that most
certainly won't make most people happy.

And, as already stated, the goal is to embed MathML and TeX in such a
way that it enables programs to identify it beyond the shadow of a doubt
and without having to sniff the actual data.

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: microformats-new-bounces at microformats.org 
> [mailto:microformats-new-bounces at microformats.org] On Behalf 
> Of Jeff McNeill
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:22 PM
> To: For discussion of new microformats.
> Subject: Re: [uf-new] an equation/MathML/TeX microformat?
> 
> Aloha Paul, et al,
> 
> Not quite sure that (alt="") is not its intended or suggested use[1].
> It appears that WAG suggests the practices that are being used[2]. For
> good measure, there is the MediaWiki page on formula display[3]. For
> tooltips, I thought that title="" was the appropriate use and not alt,
> but not sure how that works.
> 
> I can appreciate the desire to do something more than this, if only
> for the use case of "search for all documents that have the KR-20
> formula"[4].
> 
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#alternate-text
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#text-markup
> [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Formula
> [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KR-20
> 
> -- 
> Sincerely,
> Jeff McNeill
> http://jeffmcneill.com/
> 
> 
> On 10/26/07, Paul Topping <pault at dessci.com> wrote:
> > Because that eliminates its originally intended use as "alternative
> > text". Screen readers will read this literally, for 
> example, and it will
> > show up in tooltips when one hovers over it with the mouse. It is
> > exactly this kind of hack that I'm looking to microformats to escape
> > from.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: microformats-new-bounces at microformats.org 
> [mailto:microformats-
> > > new-bounces at microformats.org] On Behalf Of Jeff McNeill
> > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 11:15 AM
> > > To: For discussion of new microformats.
> > > Subject: Re: [uf-new] an equation/MathML/TeX microformat?
> > >
> > > Aloha,
> > >
> > > Why not use the alt="" tag for a given rendered image? 
> That is what
> > > works on the MimeTeX installations, see e.g.,
> > > http://garden9.com/wiki/user-talk:jeffmcneill
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Jeff McNeill
> > > http://jeffmcneill.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > On 10/26/07, Paul Topping <pault at dessci.com> wrote:
> > > > What you suggest is close to what I'm looking for but lacks
> > > declaration
> > > > of the kind of data the image/linked data bundle represents.
> > Software
> > > > working with the page would have to fetch the linked-to 
> MathML or
> > TeX
> > > > and examine it to know it was an equation. As I 
> understand it, what
> > a
> > > > microformat does is more than just hold the data, it declares a
> > > > datatype.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I want to put the MathML or TeX in the page, not 
> in separate
> > > > documents. Typical pages with math in them might have dozens of
> > > > equations. Having their representation in separate files is
> > > inefficient
> > > > but perhaps the biggest problem is that it makes authoring a lot
> > more
> > > > tedious as lots of small files have to be managed.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Topping
> > > > Design Science, Inc.
> > > > www.dessci.com
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: microformats-new-bounces at microformats.org
> > > [mailto:microformats-
> > > > > new-bounces at microformats.org] On Behalf Of Christopher St John
> > > > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 7:34 AM
> > > > > To: For discussion of new microformats.
> > > > > Subject: Re: [uf-new] an equation/MathML/TeX microformat?
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/26/07, Paul Topping <pault at dessci.com> wrote:
> > > > > > The problem has nothing to do with improving 
> display. As I said,
> > > > that
> > > > > > will be via an image such as a GIF or PNG. The 
> microformat is
> > > solely
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the purpose of associating a MathML or TeX 
> representation with
> > the
> > > > > > image. As with other microformats, normal HTML 
> content is what
> > the
> > > > > user
> > > > > > sees while software sees structured, useful data.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To restate the hopefully obvious, just in case:
> > > > >
> > > > > You just want to say "this png image of an equation 
> you're looking
> > > at
> > > > > is associated with the (MathML | TeX | Etc) ( at the 
> end of this
> > > link
> > > > |
> > > > > embedded
> > > > > here in the document)"
> > > > >
> > > > > How would you do it now, without microformats? 
> Something along the
> > > > > lines of:
> > > > >
> > > > >  <a href="some_mathml.xml"><img src="some_math.png"></a>
> > > > >
> > > > > with maybe a "class" or "rel" or something in there 
> to tie them
> > > > together
> > > > > a bit tighter?
> > > > >
> > > > > Would "the rendering fallback for this MathML is this 
> png image"
> > get
> > > > you
> > > > > the same effect? In which case you're maybe looking at the
> > standard
> > > > > <object> tag mechanism, but that gets you some 
> (hopefully fading)
> > > > > issues on certain browsers. But do the semantics of <object>
> > > fallbacks
> > > > > match what you want to do?
> > > > >
> > > > > Have you read through the existing microformats in 
> detail checking
> > > to
> > > > > see how similiar sorts of problems have been solved 
> before? Not
> > sure
> > > > if
> > > > > there's anything exactly applicable, but it's probably worth a
> > shot.
> > > > >
> > > > > -cks
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Christopher St. John
> > > > > http://artofsystems.blogspot.com
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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