hrecipe-issues

<entry-title>hRecipe issues</entry-title>

This page reflects issues raised about the hRecipe microformat.

Past issues captured during brainstorming towards hRecipe can be found in recipe-issues.

Some issues may be REJECTED for a number of obvious reasons (but still documented here in case they are re-raised), and others contain longer discussions. Some issues may be ACCEPTED and perhaps cause changes or improved explanations in the spec. Please read this page (and recipe-issues) carefully before giving any feedback or raising any issues as your feedback/issues may already be resolved/answered.

Submitted issues may (and probably will) be edited and rewritten for better terseness, clarity, calmness, rationality, and as neutral a point of view as possible. Write your issues well. — Tantek

If you have general feedback on hRecipe (positive/neutral/negative) please add to hrecipe-feedback rather than this document.

issues

Please add new issues to the bottom of this section by copy and pasting the Template. Please follow-up to resolved/rejected issues with new information rather than resubmitting such issues. Duplicate issue additions will be reverted.

• open issue! 2008-12-27 raised by Tantek Çelik

• 1. Too many properties. From reviewing the recipe-examples, it does not appear that the schema implied by the examples justify the number of properties in hRecipe, especially for a first draft. microformats should start as small as possible (even smaller), and in this regard I believe several improvements could be made. There is one obvious example of recipe-title vs recipe-summary, but it looks like there may be more. Would appreciate feedback from folks who add hRecipe to the recipes on the web regarding which properties they ended up not using.
     • proposed resolution: Drop "recipe-title". In reviewing the examples, few (if any?) include *both* a title and a summary, and in practice the semantics of usage in the context of recipes appears to be virtually indistinguishable. Therefore we don't need both, and following in the pattern provided by hCalendar (which got it from RFC2445), we should keep the more generic concept of a "summary" and drop the concept of "title" from hRecipe.
     • hRecipe certainly is not a very short format, but that stems from the complexity of the topic. Other seemingly simple issues like vCards also have a lot of properties. 'Nutrition' could be a candidate for a microformat on it's own - but then, since it can be reused anyway, why bother? If your issue leads to the proposal that we should keep this in mind and wait for implementations to prove the point then I agree - although of course I think that it's as short as reasonably possible.I disagree with the proposed resolution though - title and summary are different things and they are used differently in the real world. They are wo different elements in Dublin Core and I find no Thesaurus listing them together. Plus I personally am not aware of any recipes that don't have a title. The summary could be dropped but to what advantage since you are right with your next point and summary is already defined elsewhere? The real problem lies in the usage of 'title' in hCard and can't be solved by shoehorning other titles in something else. TomLurge 17:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
       1. Several problems with the reasoning above. First, assertion of "complexity of the topic" is insufficient. Per recipe-examples and rough 80% of the semantics implied therein - it is *not* a complex topic. Arguments from such data samples trumps any argument from theoretical complexity as we are going for a rough representation of real world use, not 99+% theoretical representation. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
       2. "hCard has lots of properties" is an insufficient justification for breaking any principles as the principles were derived from some of the experience gained (lessons learned) from the development of the early microformats like hCard and hCalendar. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
       3. The use/assertion of "wait for implementation to prove the point" is assuming the wrong burden of proof. The burden of proof is to demonstrate the need for more complexity not less. That is, with microformats, we prefer starting smaller rather than larger. This is one of the principles. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
       4. Reasoning by analogy/justification of Dublin Core is insufficient, because schema should always be based on real world samples of *data* not on other formats. Also, the properties in Dublin Core are notoriously abstract/confusing/overloaded, and thus make a particularly poor base from which to reason from. Similarly reasoning from an abstract thesaurus definition is insufficient, as the thesaurus definition itself is not based on any sampling of real world publication data. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
       5. Reasoning by absence of negative is flawed: "am not aware of any recipes that don't have a title" - absence of a negative cannot be used to prove an assertion to be true, only the possibility of being true. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
       6. Finally, the "real" problem is not the use of "title" within hCard but rather that the term "title" has been so horribly overloaded across formats, vocabularies that it is nearly meaningless and for that reason should be avoided in any/all format efforts, preferring instead something more semantically specific such as "fn" (meaning full/formatted name of an item) or "summary" (when items are labeled more often with a short description/explanation rather than a name). Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
  2. Unnecessary recipe prefixing of summary property. Note: this is a re-opening of an issue from recipe-issues. The usage of summary in recipes appears to be very similar to that used for events. Rephrased, insufficient (if any?) evidence has been provided that summary means anything "special" enough (distinguishing it from the generic term "summary" as used in microformats) in the context of recipes to merit prefixing and thus a new property.
     • proposed resolution: Re-use generic "summary" property rather than introducing a recipe microformat scoped "recipe-summary" property.
     • I agree principally but there are different "summary"s around: The hReview-Draft specifies a summary as "This optional field serves as a title for the review itself" while the hCalendar Draft refers to RFC 2445 which defines summary as "This property defines a short summary or subject for the calendar component". I certainly agree more with the semantics from RFC 2445 but referring to either of the two doesn't make much sense right now. Since you are editor of both hReview and hCalendar maybe you can clarify the subject? If hReview would be aligned with RFC 2445 then I would promote dropping the prefix.TomLurge 17:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
       • Agreed, the definitions of "summary" across hCalendar and hReview could be better converged. Please add this as an issue to both hcalendar-issues and hreview-issues and I'll follow-up there accordingly. Given that is the path forward, let's fix this immediately in hRecipe now that the issue (and resolution) has been captured. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
  3. preparation-time could re-use duration instead - it appears that the "preparation-time" semantic basically means the "duration" of the recipe, and thus could re-use that property from hCalendar rather than introducing a new property name.
     • proposed resolution: change "preparation-time" to "duration" and note re-use from hCalendar - or at least document how preparation-time is a different enough semantic from "duration" to justify the introduction of a new term.
     • One difference is that hCalendar duration is a singular property whereas hRecipe's preparation-time is plural. Also, preparation-time will often (typically) use value+note subproperties, while duration will usually be an ISO 8601 duration. TobyInk 20:32, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
       • Plurality is a contextual aspect and does not alter the semantic of the underlying property, thus is insufficient justification for introducing a new term. We do not duplicates of each property in a singular and plural form. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
       • Syntax differences (value+note vs ISO 8601) are also insufficient to justify the introduction of a new property for the same semantic. Rather, it is better to expand the syntax of the existing property, e.g. perhaps using the value-excerption-pattern and to note that explicitly. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
       • The observation that preparation-time uses a nested "note" subproperty may actually reveal a problem with that approach itself, that is, perhaps instead of "preparation-time" with "value" and "note" subproperties, it may be better to refactor it as a "preparation" (an act thereof) with "duration" and "note" subproperties. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
     • Also, if an hRecipe is nested within an hCalendar (e.g. a vtodo containing an hRecipe within the description), we probably wouldn't want naïve hCalendar parsers using an hRecipe's cooking time as the entire duration of the hCalendar component. TobyInk 20:32, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
       • This is a duplicate of similar issue(s) raised on hAudio and should be tracked there in haudio-issues. Parser implementation confusion/naïveté is insufficient to justify a corruption/compromise of the format. Data formats far outlast implementations. Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
     • Although there is no such thing as a "duration of a recipe" the semantics are close enough to justify the reuse of "duration" from hCalendar. But hCalender is just a refactoring of RFC 2445 which demands ISO style durations which are rather un-intuitive and I would be more concerend about implementors turned away by such requirements than by too many properties. RFC 2445 permits multiple duration values "if the property permits" so that should be fine. Result: I don't know... Btw: hCalender needs more love if it's really meant to be reused. "... editor's note: this list is incomplete (an incomplete list is better than no list) and is being currently edited from RFC2445 to here." imho is not good enough, especially not for a 'specification'. And RFC 2445 is not exactly an easy read. TomLurge 17:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
       • Agreed with the issues raised against hCalendar but please note them in hcalendar-issues for follow-up. Thanks! Tantek 20:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

resolved issues

• resolved issue 2008-12-27 raised by Tantek Çelik

• 1. author is re-used from hAtom not hCard. minor issue. the "author" property is actually re-used from hAtom rather than hCard - hCard has no such property.
     • Yikes! Corrected... TomLurge 17:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

closed issues

• none currently

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related pages

• hRecipe
• hRecipe feedback for general feedback on hRecipe.
• recipe microformat effort development
• recipe-issues past issues raised and resolved during recipe-brainstorming towards the development of hRecipe.