[uf-discuss] Regarding POSH and misuse of the microformats logo

Patrick Griffiths ptg at htmldog.com
Sat May 5 23:54:19 PDT 2007

The fact that I think POSH is a ridiculous, unnecessary, and patronising 
initiative aside, these sentiments are spot-on.

Semantic HTML comes first, microformats after. For POSH to catch on, it 
needs to appeal to web development (or certainly web standards) 
newcomers. Microformats is an advanced concept - not one that most 
beginners are going to latch on to straight away.

So I think lumping this with microformats partly defeats the point - it 
has the potential to confuse and seemingly complicate things, rather 
than clarify and simplify them.


Chris Messina wrote:
> I agree with Ben on this, and much of the other sentiment raised so
> far. To simplify this discussion, I think POSH is useful as a
> conceptual tool for reifying the definition of microformats:
> POSH Patterns: semantic practices resulting in meaningful markup
> Microformats: HTML-based data formats
> I believe that POSH should actually become it's own parallel effort to
> microformats -- and that the microformats wiki should link to external
> resources, documentation and best practices for all things POSH. Now,
> that doesn't have to happen right away, as we are still building out
> the foundational corpus of information related to POSH, but I think
> conflating microformats and POSH could end up confusing folks new to
> either concept -- and as such needs a logical and geographic
> delineation if we're to squeeze the most value out of this.
> To that end, I think that whatever POSH-mark we come up with shouldn't
> relate to the  microformats mark, either in color or typeface. While
> the terms are siblings, the way we market them should be radically
> different -- as should be the audiences of either term.
> The audience of POSH is generally anyone who writes HTML, who works
> with people who write HTML, CSS and AJAX developers, bloggers,
> designers, hybrids, framework builders, language writers and so forth.
> The microformats audience is similar, but should also include
> standards folks, browser developers, and so on. Nor are the members of
> these audiences mutually exclusive, but we must maintain
> audience-specific priorities for each effort.
> Finally, as to the POSH brand, I think there's still much to be done
> to come up with a mark to represent the effort that is as cool or sexy
> as the microformats icon itself. Dan Cederholm set the bar pretty high
> on this one and I've already got a few designer-friends coming up with
> something that I think you'll like, playing on the idea of "semantic
> salt"...
> So, it's something of a matter of time before we find a proper home
> for POSH, but agree that long-term, the goal should be to separate out
> the two efforts as distinct community efforts.
> Chris
> On 5/5/07, David Mead <davidjohnmead at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have to agree, and have cast my vote, that the use of the
>> microformats logo with POSH isn't a good idea straight out of the
>> gate.
>> I do like Jon's badges so if I were to ever use one I'd be happy with
>> one of those.
>> Maybe I'm missing something but if you want to promote "plain old
>> semantic HTML" then wouldn't you have that first and then add
>> microformats to it?  So the POSH badge should be designed first and
>> then an alternative to show you are using POSH with uF's.  Didn't the
>> W3C have badges (I'm going back a bit now) for HTML, one for CSS and
>> one combined?
>> Maybe this is the way to go.  Get the foundation (POSH), add CSS,
>> uF's, RSS what-have-you afterwards.
>> I'm not a big one for badges anyway :-)
>> Dave
>> On 5/5/07, Jon Tan <microformats at gr0w.com> wrote:
>> > Ben Ward wrote:
>> > > Now the whole point of this is to differentiate semantic HTML from
>> > > microformats, discourage the further ambiguation of the terms. So to
>> > > be honest I'm a bit put out by the badges that have been added to
>> > > http://microformats.org/wiki/posh#POSH_Bling_for_your_Blog which
>> > > include the microformats logo.

>> >
>> > I've provided a plain HTML / CSS  alternative without the 
>> microformats logo:
>> >
>> > http://jontangerine.com/silo/microformats/posh-badge/
>> >
>> > Please feel free to use / adapt as you like.
>> >
>> > All the best,
>> > Jon Tan
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > microformats-discuss at microformats.org
>> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>> >
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