[uf-discuss] re: HTML5 support

Oli Studholme microformats.org at boblet.net
Sun Jul 18 05:38:31 PDT 2010

Hey All,

re: Martin’s earlier email

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Martin McEvoy
<martin at weborganics.co.uk> wrote:
> <span class="vcard">
> <span class="fn">George Washington</span>
> </span>

I think the issue you had with the microdata equivalent was
brevity/simplicity, correct? While the ‘n’ class optimisation isn’t in
the microdata vocabulary, and I’ve already covered how for non-Western
style names this doesn’t apply (and is potentially harmful), I forgot
about the profile attribute:

The difference is in microdata a profile (vocabulary) link is required
via @itemtype, whereas it’s a “_should_” in microformats. If we add a
profile to my previous non-English example results in a draw for me in
the simplicity stakes:

<link rel="profile" href="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard">
<span class="vcard" lang="ja">
       <span class="fn n">
               <span class="family-name">スタッドホルム</span>・
               <span class="given-name">オリ</span>

<span itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard" lang="ja">
       <span itemprop="fn n">
               <span itemprop="family-name">スタッドホルム</span>・
               <span itemprop="given-name">オリ</span>

Of course if you can use implied ‘n’ optimisation microformats are
definitely simpler, but the difference is less pronounced when using

<link rel="profile" href="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard">
<span class="vcard">
       <span class="fn">Oli Studholme</span>

<span itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard" lang="ja">
       <span itemprop="fn n"><span itemprop="given-name">Oli</span>
<span itemprop="family-name">Studholme</span></span>

Of course, no one actually uses @profile with microformats, so it’s
probably a moot point :D

Finally thank you for pointing out the nested fn and n itemprops in
the spec example which should be in the same itemprop. I filed a bug:

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Scott Reynen <scott at randomchaos.com> wrote:

> I'd suggest removing the entire vocabulary-specific section altogether.  As mentioned in the same page, microdata is aiming to solve a different problem than microformats, so it's misleading to suggest specific vocabularies are actually alternatives to specific microformats by talking about them vis-a-vis microformats.

I’m sorry, but what text are you referring to? What I see is:
“microdata is an extension to HTML5 that provides another way to embed
microformats and poshformats vocabularies”

> Put another way, that section violates DRY.  Because microdata is aiming to solve a different problem, *no* microdata vocabulary could possibly be recommended in place of a specific microformat, so it's redundant to go into the ways in which a specific microdata vocabulary goes against microformat principles, principles it's not even attempting to follow.

Out of curiosity what do you perceive are the different problems that
microformats and microdata are trying to solve?

I personally see microformats as a grass-roots movement that uses the
tools available to extend HTML with extra semantics. Currently this is
accomplished using @class, @rel etc. I see microdata as a new tool in
HTML5 that would also be suitable for using with microformats, so I’m
wondering what’s up with all the negativity directed toward microdata
in these replies.


It seems the current inclusion of vcard and vevent vocabularies in the
HTML5 spec is something of a problem (at least based on the IMO
incorrect comments in the wiki I’ve pointed out above), so I wonder
how is progress going on the 1.0.1 versions that Hixie said he’d be
happy to link to as normative versions?
Ref: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090717#l-335

According to Hixie the vcard/vevent vocabularies are in the spec as
examples of how to write a microdata vocabulary, so could presumably
be changed with something else (“the vcard one is basically a proof of
concept to show that it is possible to design a vocabulary in very
little time and to show how to write a spec for one”)
ref: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100713#l-884

Finally, I wonder how I can assist in the documentation of how to use
any microformat via microdata?

ref: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090717#l-437
# [10:36] <boblet> tantek: will current Microformats be released in
Microdata format at some stage?
# [10:37] <tantek> boblet - doubtful. but will likely happen is that
microformats.org will document how to use *any* microformat
generically using microdata syntax. watch this page for updates:

peace - oli

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